Canadian Political Events

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: Granny on July 13, 2019, 09:41:09 am

Title: RCMP
Post by: Granny on July 13, 2019, 09:41:09 am
In my opinion:
  The RCMP exist in a bubble of secrecy, protection and power not afforded to other police forces in Canada because they are national, not local, so without direct accountability to people and communities they serve. Rather, they are strongly connected to national government, and their power comes from doing what government wants them to do. Despite the fact that 'government cannot direct the operations of police", without direct accountability to communities, the RCMP do operate as the 'enforcement' arm of government. Despite their Oath to "obey lawful orders" only, RCMP officers have little recourse, no protection from unlawful orders.

Maybe that will improve now with a union to protect officers' interests.
We can hope. Lol

History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police

Glorious?

Present
https://www.voiceonline.com/rcmp-is-a-completely-broken-organization-that-cannot-be-fixed-with-its-current-culture-structure-leadership-former-solicitor-general-kash-heed/

Broken?
“At the end of the day, I am sad to say we are probably going to be looking at close to a $1 billion settlement and we don’t even know if we’ve fixed the problem. They don’t care as an organization because this is taxpayers’ money. For years I have been raising the issue based on the culture, the leadership of that organization and how fraught with problems it is and continues to be; yet we have nobody – and I am talking of the politicians – that want to take this on, hold them to account again and again and again. Nobody’s stepped up saying ‘enough is enough!’


Union
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/national-police-federation-union-rcmp-mounties-1.5210796

Finally!

National Police Federation wins right to represent Mounties in collective bargaining:
Supreme Court in 2015 struck down law that forbade Mounties from unionizing

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 13, 2019, 11:53:14 am
From knowing a lot of different people working in enforcement organizations, and reading the news over the years, it's clear that there's a lot of dicks working in enforcement organizations across Canada and they have a serious internal culture program.

Having the power of authority over others, including the power to boss people around while having a gun strapped to your hip, tends to attract a certain type of person, and also tends to turn good people into a certain type of person.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on July 15, 2019, 07:39:07 am
From knowing a lot of different people working in enforcement organizations, and reading the news over the years, it's clear that there's a lot of dicks working in enforcement organizations across Canada and they have a serious internal culture program.

Having the power of authority over others, including the power to boss people around while having a gun strapped to your hip, tends to attract a certain type of person, and also tends to turn good people into a certain type of person.

I'm not a fan of the "a lot of dicks" idea. I think the culture that is sustained by the brass is much more influential ... and where that comes from: what are the political and other pressures that sustain/require certain types of behaviour.

I think you're right about the 'type that likes to boss people around with a gun ... ", but how do those 'dicks' get hired? How do they keep getting away with it? That's the culture from the top sustaining it.

Does one officer decide alone to disobey rules and cover something up, for example? Or does the culture sustain/require that?

"Prosecutors failed to disclose information and RCMP deleted files that pointed to another possible suspect."
"The reasons why are far-reaching and start at the very beginning of this case, during the investigation, and span every level of the justice system, right past the [Nova Scotia] Court of Appeal to the Department of Justice," said MacDonald.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-brenda-way-justice-miscarriage-1.5210082

Sounds more like collusion from/by the prosecutor than just "a dick" cop: Did the prosecutor suggest that the information 'disappear'?
Oh ya, and the innocent guy who spent 17 years in jail ... was Indigenous.
 There is that.

It certainly creates an issue of public trust, might lead someone like me to question RCMP data that placed blame for deaths of Missing and Murdered Indigenous women "mostly" Indigenous men ... and fails to even mention serial killers.

Do we even know how widespread the practice is of deleting information that doesn't fit the 'popular narrative' in criminal cases? Is it worse than in other police forces? Given the vastness and often remoteness of RCMP jurisdictions across Canada, is it more likely that RCMP officers are inclined to make the evidence fit a chosen narrative?

We don't know, and we could not ever independently access the data to evaluate that and other questions. Eg, CPIC data from all police forces across the country isn't accessible by the public in any form. Seems odd, given that 'freedom of information' is the law now.

A lot of questions ... and very few avenues to find answers.

146 years of NWMP/RCMP service all across the country, and much less public accountability than other forces, it seems to me. That alone is a recipe for an ingrown and corrupted service. 

I wouldn't entirely put responsibility for that on the RCMP, either: Who else helps sustain that? Whose needs are served by that? Who are the power brokers?

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on July 15, 2019, 11:14:09 am
It certainly creates an issue of public trust, might lead someone like me to question RCMP data that placed blame for deaths of Missing and Murdered Indigenous women "mostly" Indigenous men ... and fails to even mention serial killers, like the real perpetrator was in that case.

Do we even know how widespread the practice is of deleting information that doesn't fit the 'popular narrative' in criminal cases? Is it worse than in other police forces? Given the vastness and often remoteness of RCMP jurisdictions across Canada, is it more likely that RCMP officers are inclined to make the evidence fit a chosen narrative?

146 years of NWMP/RCMP service all across the country, and much less public accountability than other forces, it seems to me. That alone is a recipe for an ingrown and corrupted service. 

I wouldn't entirely put responsibility for that on the RCMP, either: Who else helps sustain that? Whose needs are served by that? Who are the power brokers?

is your hope/intent to make this a conspiracy thread?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on July 15, 2019, 04:43:50 pm
is your hope/intent to make this a conspiracy thread?

It isn't 'a conspiracy' to inquire into, and evaluate a public service. We are entitled to know what we're paying for,
The public isn't the enemy:
We're the employer!!


If you read my whole post, you will see that I'm inquiring mainly about the pressures that are applied to the RCMP by other players, who are also on the public payroll.
So I repeat:
"Prosecutors failed to disclose information and RCMP deleted files that pointed to another possible suspect."
The prosecutor knew.
Did the prosecutor influence the officer in some way to delete information?
And how commonly is that done?

Questions needing answers ...
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on July 16, 2019, 02:11:37 pm
Hey, squid (re "dumb) ... I get that you are supportive of police. Are you also supportive of bad policing behaviour, like deleting evidence?
Note that my focus is ... who is pressuring police in such situations?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 18, 2019, 10:54:46 am
The RCMP has been sitting for two years on a watchdog report into alleged Mountie surveillance of anti-oil protesters, a civil liberties group charges.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-watchdog-oil-spying-1.5246354
The association lodged a complaint in February 2014 with the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP. It alleged the national police force improperly collected and shared information about people and groups who peacefully opposed the planned Northern Gateway pipeline project and attended National Energy Board meetings.

The association said monitoring, surveillance and information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector created a chilling effect for those who might wish to take part in hearings or other public discussions on petroleum issues.

The commission launched a public interest investigation and completed an interim report into the matter in June 2017, forwarding it to the RCMP for comment on the conclusions and recommendations.

The commission cannot prepare a final report until the RCMP commissioner responds, which also means the findings can't be disclosed to the civil liberties association or the public.

In March, Paul Champ, a lawyer for the association, wrote commission chair Michelaine Lahaie to express concern that more than five years had passed since the complaint was filed, saying the RCMP may have violated the fundamental freedoms of Canadians exercising their democratic rights.


Who gives the orders RCMP to do surveillance on members of the public attending public meetings of the National Energy Board that is funded by the public?
Do they do surveillance on everybody who attends, or just those opposed to corporate proposals?
Do corporations pay the RCMP salaries for their work? <sarcasm>
The RCMP are sharing this illicit surveillance info on individuals with other government agencies, AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR???
And sitting on the report for two years?

Do RCMP take orders directly from corporations?
Do the orders come indirectly from politicians supporting corporate proposals?

Who tells the RCMP which proposals are matters of 'national security' so they 'know' who to surveil?

Who oversees the RCMP to ensure that they are accountable to the public, who pay their salaries?
Why did an oversight body not notice the RCMP sitting on this report of their inappropriate and politically partisan surveillance of members of the public who pay their salaries?

There's a huge, 150+ year old stench of political and corporate influence, pressure and direction of the RCMP.

 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2019, 11:56:45 am
The RCMP are sharing this illicit surveillance info on individuals with other government agencies, AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR???

are you making an unsubstantiated statement or are you asking a question... make up your mind, hey!

on the broader level, speaking of making up your mind, clearly you've done so already - yes?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2019, 01:29:47 pm
The RCMP needs to respond. On the other hand, if particular individuals or groups present a genuine security threat to a company, that company deserves to know about it, just as an individual would.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 18, 2019, 01:45:11 pm
are you making an unsubstantiated statement or are you asking a question... make up your mind, hey!
Waldo, it's irritating that you don't read before responding.
Obviously, I was repeating the information provided in the article quoted above:
"...information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector ..."
For substantiation of that, we'd have to see the  report of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission (CRCC)... but the fact that the RCMP are sitting on that CRCC report so it can't be released publicly pretty much substantiates the complaints, imo.

Quote
on the broader level, speaking of making up your mind, clearly you've done so already - yes?

Gee ... let's see ...
*RCMP are accused of improper surveillance of Canadians exercising legal democratic rights.
*CRCC investigates, writes report, sends report to RCMP for response, so both CRCC report and RCMP response can be made public at once.
*RCMP sits on CRCC report refusing to respond ... for two years now.
*RCMP Commissioner refuses to answer CRCC requests for RCMP response to the report.

It isn't hard to 'make up one's mind' that the RCMP  refusal to respond means that they are guilty, and are obstructing to prevent the report from being made public.

But do tell, waldo, what's your take on this?
Did the RCMP act improperly in collecting surveillance on Canadians attending NEB hearings, and distributing it to other government agencies and the private sector?
Has the RCMP again acted improperly by failing to address the CRCC report and recommendations, effectively preventing it from becoming public?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2019, 02:00:22 pm
Waldo, it's irritating that you don't read before responding.
Obviously, I was repeating the information provided in the article quoted above:
"...information sharing with other government agencies and the private sector ..."
For substantiation of that, we'd have to see the  report of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission (CRCC)... but the fact that the RCMP are sitting on that CRCC report so it can't be released publicly pretty much substantiates the complaints, imo.

your unsubstantiated OPINION is noted! Again, you bold-highlighted a definitive statement! You presume to 'seek cover' in making/repeating said definitive statement by closing it with multiple "?".

Gee ... let's see ...
*RCMP are accused of improper surveillance of Canadians exercising legal democratic rights.
*CRCC investigates, writes report, sends report to RCMP for response, so both CRCC report and RCMP response can be made public at once.
*RCMP sits on CRCC report refusing to respond ... for two years now.
*RCMP Commissioner refuses to answer CRCC requests for RCMP response to the report.

It isn't hard to 'make up one's mind' that the RCMP  refusal to respond means that they are guilty, and are obstructing to prevent the report from being made public.

But do tell, waldo, what's your take on this?
Did the RCMP act improperly in collecting surveillance on Canadians attending NEB hearings, and distributing it to other government agencies and the private sector?
Has the RCMP again acted improperly by failing to address the CRCC report and recommendations, effectively preventing it from becoming public?

you're gleefully running with nothing more than accusations... and base all your baseless criticism on the report not being released. I would expect there are matters of National Security involved - possibly actions taken as directed by government/CSIS. Hey didja know there's STILL continued ONGOING concerns related to TMX - apparently you could care less about possibly compromising investigations with the report release.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 18, 2019, 02:04:16 pm
The RCMP needs to respond. On the other hand, if particular individuals or groups present a genuine security threat to a company, that company deserves to know about it, just as an individual would.

We would have to see the report to know that, wouldn't we?
But I think we can assume that no security threats were found as no one has been charged with any threats or crimes against said company before or after these complaints were made against the RCMP ... 5 years ago!

You raise an issue that is likely addressed in the CRCC report (that the RCMP won't let us see): Can the RCMP conduct widespread surveillance on Canadians without just cause?
The fact of someone's opposition to a corporate development is not 'just cause' to assume any criminal intent, nor criminal behaviour.
The fact of someone's opposition to a corporate development is Constitutionally protected freedom of expression and assembly.

Upholding individual Constitutional rights is an RCMP responsibility.
Pushing through a corporate for-profit pipeline is not an RCMP responsibility. Improper surveillance
to harass, intimidate and threaten Canadians, is certainly not an RCMP duty, but an abuse of their duties to the public who pay their salaries.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2019, 02:09:53 pm
Improper surveillance to harass, intimidate and threaten Canadians, is certainly not an RCMP duty, but an abuse of their duties to the public who pay their salaries.

 ;D more of your unsubstantiated statements! Well done
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 18, 2019, 02:14:37 pm
your unsubstantiated OPINION is noted! Again, you bold-highlighted a definitive statement! You presume to 'seek cover' in making/repeating said definitive statement by closing it with multiple "?".

you're gleefully running with nothing more than accusations... and base all your baseless criticism on the report not being released. I would expect there are matters of National Security involved - possibly actions taken as directed by government/CSIS. Hey didja know there's STILL continued ONGOING concerns related to TMX - apparently you could care less about possibly compromising investigations with the report release.

That's all your own speculation, waldo. The RCMP have not made such claims. The RCMP have simply refused to communicate with the CRCC about the report at all. The RCMP have not raised any issues of "National Security", or given any reasons at all for not responding.

And btw ... re your statement:
 "...possibly actions taken as directed by government ..."
You are aware that that's impossible, right?
 You are aware of the necessary separation between government and police?
You are aware that "government cannot direct the operations of police"?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2019, 02:24:57 pm
That's all your own speculation, waldo. The RCMP have not made such claims. The RCMP have simply refused to communicate with the CRCC about the report at all. The RCMP have not raised any issues of "National Security", or given any reasons at all for not responding.

hey now! What's the first-rule of Fight Club?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: ?Impact on August 18, 2019, 02:40:44 pm
The RCMP needs to respond. On the other hand, if particular individuals or groups present a genuine security threat to a company, that company deserves to know about it, just as an individual would.


Agreed, and what I put in bold face is of critical importance and very likely what concerns people.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2019, 03:45:50 pm
We would have to see the report to know that, wouldn't we?

Yes we would, that’s why I said they need to address it. Until then you are free to make whatever assumptions you want, justified or not.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 18, 2019, 11:29:28 pm
hey now! What's the first-rule of Fight Club?

Stick to the facts?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 19, 2019, 12:02:47 am

Agreed, and what I put in bold face is of critical importance and very likely what concerns people.

What "genuine security threat"?
There is no "genuine security threat".
There is perhaps a threat to exports for profit, if those opposed can turn the tide ... and they did.
Oh well.
That's just freedom and democracy.
Something the RCMP aren't too comfortable with.

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2019, 12:06:54 am
Stick to the facts?

no - the first (most obvious) rule is you {the RCMP} don't talk about possible threats to National Security. Sumthin bout giving away the investigation farm!  ;D
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2019, 12:12:31 am
There is no "genuine security threat".

citation request

{given how you've significantly wigged out against the RCMP in regards MMIW, the waldo suggests you should recuse yourself from this separate issue and related discussion - clearly, you're not thinking rationally and your bias is running rampant}
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 19, 2019, 02:34:30 am
no - the first (most obvious) rule is you {the RCMP} don't talk about possible threats to National Security. Sumthin bout giving away the investigation farm!  ;D

Pipelines for fossil fuel export for private profit are NOT a matter of National Security, and no one has ever said they were.

We'll see what flimsy excuses the RCMP come up with for withholding the report and their response from the public.
But I'll bet it won't be "National Security".

They made a big deal about surveilling a so-called Indigenous "extremist" - ie, a member of the Indigenous Environmental Network, for cripes sake! 
Get a friggin life, RCMP!! Stop chasing 'Indians'!  Start upholding Constitutional Aboriginal rights: That's your job!

Face it waldo: RCMP are not responding to the report ... because they are going to look like idiots.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2019, 10:38:08 am
Pipelines for fossil fuel export for private profit are NOT a matter of National Security, and no one has ever said they were.

you are so obviously out of your depth (which is quite shallow to begin with) here! Critical infrastructure has been a national security priority since the Second World War... and starting in the 70s, an energy crisis and terrorist attacks on energy related targets refocused critical infrastructure security on threats from within national borders. Accordingly, world state governments have today tasked themselves with protecting (largely privately owned) energy infrastructure against threats from resident people and groups - how could they not?

perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the National Energy Board responsibilities and, in particular, how it shapes regulatory aspects... and most pointedly as reflects upon TMX, you may want to ask yourself why the U.S. insisted on a sign-off to the recent TMX purchase agreement - one based on grounds related to {their} national security concerns/interest - hey!
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on August 19, 2019, 04:48:55 pm
What "genuine security threat"?
There is no "genuine security threat".
There is perhaps a threat to exports for profit, of protesters can turn the tide ... and they did.
Oh well.
That's just freedom and democracy.
Something the RCMP aren't too comfortable with.



This is why the RCMP need to address this. Until they do, people will just run wild with whatever assumptions they feel like.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on August 20, 2019, 07:01:57 am
you are so obviously out of your depth (which is quite shallow to begin with) here!
Your strategy of starting out with personal insults betrays your lack of confidence in your responses.

 
Quote
Critical infrastructure has been a national security priority since the Second World War... and starting in the 70s, an energy crisis and terrorist attacks on energy related targets refocused critical infrastructure security on threats from within national borders. Accordingly, world state governments have today tasked themselves with protecting (largely privately owned) energy infrastructure against threats from resident people and groups - how could they not?

perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the National Energy Board responsibilities and, in particular, how it shapes regulatory aspects... and most pointedly as reflects upon TMX, you may want to ask yourself why the U.S. insisted on a sign-off to the recent TMX purchase agreement - one based on grounds related to {their} national security concerns/interest - hey!

1)Profits of foreign corporations, exports to other countries, are not a National Security issue for Canadians, and nobody has ever said they were. Nobody, in particular Trudeau, will ever support the RCMP in using that justification. He'd be hooted off the stage, because pipelines are widely seen as the biggest threat to our future security, even by Trudeau's supporters.
2) If the RCMP are now just acting as security guards for the profits of corporations ...
EG, here ...
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/province-house/roughed-up-by-the-rcmp-john-perkins-sues-atlantic-gold-and-the-cops/
And here ...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/risk-assessment-wetsuweten-unistoten-camp-1.4975744

 ... then perhaps we, who currently pay their salaries while protesting their invasive and unjust actions that violate our Constitutional rights,  need to rethink the 'national' status of the RCMP and downgrade them to a more appropriate status as private-for-hire-corporate-security guards.
If the RCMP are 'workin for the man' forcing politically unwelcome corporate developments on communities, instead of respecting and enforcing the Constitutional and democratic rights of Canadians to oppose developments in their communities, then the RCMP are not operating as a 'national' police force.

It's important to always keep in mind that government cannot direct the operations of police because politicians can't turn the police against the people to suppress dissent in order to  further their own partisan interests.
That is a perversion and destruction of democracy.




 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on August 20, 2019, 09:11:48 am
Your strategy of starting out with personal insults betrays your lack of confidence in your responses.

says you... the QueenOfInsultGiving. Your perceived insult wasn't "strategic"; it was strictly responsive and in kind!

1)Profits of foreign corporations, exports to other countries, are not a National Security issue for Canadians, and nobody has ever said they were. Nobody, in particular Trudeau, will ever support the RCMP in using that justification. He'd be hooted off the stage, because pipelines are widely seen as the biggest threat to our future security, even by Trudeau's supporters.

how dismissive you are of government royalties and taxation revenues... and something about societal dependencies... about supporting government services, social programs, provincial transfers, etc.. Geezaz, just look what happens when refineries go off-line for extended operational maintenance. None of this is partisan politics as much as you're trying to make it so.

... then perhaps we, who currently pay their salaries while protesting their invasive and unjust actions that violate our Constitutional rights,  need to rethink the 'national' status of the RCMP and downgrade them to a more appropriate status as private-for-hire-corporate-security guards. If the RCMP are 'workin for the man' forcing politically unwelcome corporate developments on communities, instead of respecting and enforcing the Constitutional and democratic rights of Canadians to oppose developments in their communities, then the RCMP are not operating as a 'national' police force.

It's important to always keep in mind that government cannot direct the operations of police because politicians can't turn the police against the people to suppress dissent in order to  further their own partisan interests. That is a perversion and destruction of democracy.

perhaps acquaint yourself with what civilian agencies can and can't do... and how police, through lawful means, extend upon those civilian "can't do" aspects.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 04, 2019, 10:37:28 am
It seems from the Wikipedia article, that the RCMP is not unlike a combination (in American terms) of the FBI, the Secret Service and some state police forces? I was surprised to read that they have policing power in eight of Canada's ten provinces. Aren't there provincial police in those provinces?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on September 04, 2019, 11:05:43 am
None of the western provinces have provincial police forces.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: ?Impact on September 04, 2019, 04:49:17 pm
Aren't there provincial police in those provinces?

I believe only Ontario and Quebec have provincial police forces. Most larger cities across the country however have municipal police forces.  You obviously are not a fan of Canadian television like the Beachcombers, Corner Gas, North of 60, etc.; the RCMP are well represented.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2019, 05:30:20 pm
I believe only Ontario and Quebec have provincial police forces. Most larger cities across the country however have municipal police forces.  You obviously are not a fan of Canadian television like the Beachcombers, Corner Gas, North of 60, etc.; the RCMP are well represented.

Yep, OPP and QPP. I have had speeding tickets from both. 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on September 04, 2019, 05:31:36 pm
Newfoundland has a provincial police.
Royal Newfoundland Constabulary
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2019, 05:40:09 pm
Newfoundland has a provincial police.
Royal Newfoundland Constabulary

That's true and they used to have to keep their firearms locked in the trunk of the cop car and had to ask permission to get them out. Lard tunderin Geezuz bye.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: ?Impact on September 04, 2019, 05:57:05 pm
Yep, OPP and QPP. I have had speeding tickets from both.

I only have had 2 speeding tickets in my life. One was a photo radar on the Autobahn, and the other was a municipal police force in Ontario which I successfully fought.

I also escaped one from the OPP on Manitoulin island many decades ago. The limit was 80 and I was just slightly above it, but someone passed me and I decided to follow behind them. Miles later as they crested a hill, I saw the break lights go on so I slowed down. By the time I got to the top of the hill the cop was in the middle of the road flagging the other guy over, and stayed there. I kept going and he just looked at me, perhaps hoping I would volunteer to pull over. I just slowly drove past him.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2019, 08:47:39 pm
I only have had 2 speeding tickets in my life. One was a photo radar on the Autobahn, and the other was a municipal police force in Ontario which I successfully fought.

I also escaped one from the OPP on Manitoulin island many decades ago. The limit was 80 and I was just slightly above it, but someone passed me and I decided to follow behind them. Miles later as they crested a hill, I saw the break lights go on so I slowed down. By the time I got to the top of the hill the cop was in the middle of the road flagging the other guy over, and stayed there. I kept going and he just looked at me, perhaps hoping I would volunteer to pull over. I just slowly drove past him.

I think there are still those who believer there is no speed limit on the Autobahn. Having driven it both ways from Frankfurt to Wilhelmsaven I know otherwise. However on my trips everybody seemed to ignore that limit. I just went with the flow so I guess I lucked out.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on September 04, 2019, 10:21:05 pm
I think there are still those who believer there is no speed limit on the Autobahn. Having driven it both ways from Frankfurt to Wilhelmsaven I know otherwise. However on my trips everybody seemed to ignore that limit. I just went with the flow so I guess I lucked out.

Some sections don't have limits but others do.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2019, 10:51:56 pm
Some sections don't have limits but others do.

I couldn't convince that Mercedes to slow down no matter what I said.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 05, 2019, 03:43:13 am
I believe only Ontario and Quebec have provincial police forces. Most larger cities across the country however have municipal police forces.  You obviously are not a fan of Canadian television like the Beachcombers, Corner Gas, North of 60, etc.; the RCMP are well represented.

Why don't the western provinces have their own provincial police forces?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on September 05, 2019, 08:38:04 am
Why don't the western provinces have their own provincial police forces?

Population, perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population_growth_rate

And historical establishment of the RCMP across the country.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on September 05, 2019, 09:20:30 am
Newfoundland has a provincial police. Royal Newfoundland Constabulary

which only does policing for the larger population centers... leaving the lesser pop {rural} areas to the RCMP

Why don't the western provinces have their own provincial police forces?

as well as Atlantic provinces (save the partial policing done within Nfld-Lab)... to a degree, federal transfer payments help offset contractual arrangements made with the RCMP. The RCMP is a lower cost than provincial/local police forces, in part due to the traditionally lower wages paid by the RCMP to its members - those overall lower costs results in significant tax savings for citizens policed by the RCMP. Studies show the 'downside' is a resultant higher case load for the RCMP, with a lower closure rate.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 05, 2019, 10:15:57 am
which only does policing for the larger population centers... leaving the lesser pop {rural} areas to the RCMP

as well as Atlantic provinces (save the partial policing done within Nfld-Lab)... to a degree, federal transfer payments help offset contractual arrangements made with the RCMP. The RCMP is a lower cost than provincial/local police forces, in part due to the traditionally lower wages paid by the RCMP to its members - those overall lower costs results in significant tax savings for citizens policed by the RCMP. Studies show the 'downside' is a resultant higher case load for the RCMP, with a lower closure rate.

The RCMP get lower wages compared to local police in those provinces? Wow. That surprises me. Maybe that is part of the problem?

May I assume, from what you have told me, that the voters of the western provinces are more fiscally conservative types than their counterparts in Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland? Because that, to me, would certainly explain it. (But I don't live in Canada so I could likely be wrong about that.)
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 05, 2019, 11:52:31 am
Population, perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population_growth_rate

And historical establishment of the RCMP across the country.

Yes, I understand it was originally the Northwest Mounted Police, for the "territory" west of Ontario...or west of something...I learned that watching "Murdoch Mysteries" (lol)
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on September 05, 2019, 12:34:37 pm
The RCMP get lower wages compared to local police in those provinces? Wow. That surprises me. Maybe that is part of the problem?

May I assume, from what you have told me, that the voters of the western provinces are more fiscally conservative types than their counterparts in Ontario, Quebec and Newfoundland? Because that, to me, would certainly explain it. (But I don't live in Canada so I could likely be wrong about that.)

That may improve now that the RCMP will have a union.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/national-police-federation-union-rcmp-mounties-1.5210796
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on September 17, 2019, 10:30:45 am
Well, what to say ... we have a spy within the RCMP at a very high level, giving away secrets of Canada and our '5 eyes' allies.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ortis-cse-csis-documents-devistating-1.5285970
(and a spelling mistake in the cbc link. Lol)
And ... how the Mounties found out from the US that they had a spy in their midst:
https://globalnews.ca/video/rd/668bfd78-d8e2-11e9-aced-0242ac110005/?jwsource=cl

The RCMP have proven particularly incompetent at dealing with any real national security issues, and unethical and illegal behaviour, eg blowing things up and blaming environmentalists=entrapment+arson in dealing with internal constitutionally protected dissent (eg, environmentalists, Indigenous) in the past, and still:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCMP_Security_Service
As a result of illegal tactics used by the Security Service and consequent scandals surrounding the RCMP, intelligence work was transferred to a new agency, CSIS, in 1984. The RCMP has again become involved in intelligence work, however, particularly related to terrorism following the bombing of Air India Flight 182 in 1985 and the 9/11 attacks.

What the heck is wrong with the RCMP?

Entitled, secretive police who treat people's constitutional rights as crimes, masters at entrapment and other illegal tactics, so  chronically covering up each other's bad behaviour to the point that a spy can operate for a long time in their midst undetected.

The most unaccountable police force in the country, and that's a very serious problem.

And Trudeau's to deal with ... during an election campaign.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: the_squid on September 17, 2019, 11:48:50 am
Quote
blowing things up and blaming environmentalists

Where and when did the RCMP do this?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on September 17, 2019, 12:11:21 pm
Where and when did the RCMP do this?

It's quite a list of exposed illegal tactics by the RCMP, ... but the one I referenced is this:

RCMP bombing in Alberta, scapegoating farmer   

The RCMP bombed an oilsite in Alberta on October 14, 1999, on the instructions of the Alberta Energy Co. No injuries were caused or intended. The Crown lawyers, representing the government, accepted that the allegations were true. An Alberta farmer was blamed for the bombing.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_involving_the_Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/rcmp-bombed-oil-site-in-dirty-tricks-campaign-1.188599


The RCMP doesn't uphold people's Constitutional right to dissent. They entrap to criminalize and squash dissent against corporations.
The RCMP work for industry and their boughtandpaidfor politicians, not for Canadians.

And at least one - Director of Intelligence  also sells our secrets.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 17, 2019, 09:32:02 pm
The "P" in RCMP stands for "Poo", or so i have been told.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on September 18, 2019, 12:33:40 am
I can't say that would be my first response, but ... fill yer boots! Lol

Update:
https://globalnews.ca/news/5914384/compromised-probe-linked-to-alleged-rcmp-mole-was-elite-huge-intelligence-file/

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 13, 2020, 08:49:59 pm
Well what to say about the RCMP and systemic racism ... they don't have it ... and they're going to get rid of it ... and Trudeau is going to make sure they do.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-systemic-racism-lucki-trudeau-1.5607622

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/northern-alberta-chief-accuses-rcmp-of-beating-him-over-expired-licence-plate

I started this thread because the RCMP have a lot of changing to do ... or perhaps Kash Heed (link in OP) was right:

...former solicitor general of B.C. Kash Heed lashed out at the RCMP.

He told The VOICE on Tuesday: “The entire organization needs to be imploded right now and completely rebuilt from the ground up or the top down – whatever metaphor you want to use to describe it – because this is a completely broken organization that cannot be fixed with its current culture, structure, leadership.”


I tend to agree.
The NWMP/RCMP was created to commit genocide ... for capitalism, push the railway through, police the apartheid.

So now they harass and brutalize Indigenous people for plate stickers.

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 13, 2020, 11:22:13 pm
So now they harass and brutalize Indigenous people for plate stickers.

I agree that the RCMP are pieces of crap.

The 2nd cop came in too aggressive, but the chief 1. grabbed the 1st officer when he tried to put his wife in cuffs, 2. threatened the cop with some karate stance thing, twice, and 3. resisted arrested.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 11:24:35 am
I agree that the RCMP are pieces of crap.

The 2nd cop came in too aggressive, but the chief 1. grabbed the 1st officer when he tried to put his wife in cuffs, 2. threatened the cop with some karate stance thing, twice, and 3. resisted arrested.

All of that over an expired plate. 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 12:35:53 pm
All of that over an expired plate.

I think the chief flipped out over the ticket.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 12:39:49 pm
I think the chief flipped out over the ticket.

And in turn, the RCMP acted far from professional.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 01:11:22 pm
And in turn, the RCMP acted far from professional.

The chief broke 4 laws, the 1st cop showed extreme restraint as he waited for backup, and the 2nd cop (backup) acted a bit aggressively and arguably used too much force while the chief was resisting arrest after being warned.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 01:22:21 pm
The chief broke 4 laws, the 1st cop showed extreme restraint as he waited for backup, and the 2nd cop (backup) acted a bit aggressively and arguably used too much force while the chief was resisting arrest after being warned.

I would hope you didn't think I was talking about the first officer. The second arrived on the scene with a tackle.

That brings us to another point - I thought the RCMP didn't go to calls alone anymore?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 01:23:59 pm
Of course that brings us to another problem. When the commanding officer reviewed the footage, he said it was fine. Whether or not it was technically fine isn't the point. Such a statement was tone deaf as fuck.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: the_squid on June 14, 2020, 02:05:05 pm
Of course that brings us to another problem. When the commanding officer reviewed the footage, he said it was fine. Whether or not it was technically fine isn't the point. Such a statement was tone deaf as ****.

I'm not sure officer safety and how to arrest violent suspects should really be dictated by public opinion.  However, in this case, if it happened like the Chief says it did, clearly this was unnecessary and violent by the cops.  Why would you need to pull someone out of their car over expired documents, unless they started to try and drive away?

If it happened like the cops say, it was probably justified.  I like it when the cops pull over uninsured motorists. 

Bodycams on the cops would give us a clue....   but cops don't like those...   I wonder why...?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2020, 02:33:15 pm
I'm not sure officer safety and how to arrest violent suspects should really be dictated by public opinion.  However, in this case, if it happened like the Chief says it did, clearly this was unnecessary and violent by the cops.  Why would you need to pull someone out of their car over expired documents, unless they started to try and drive away?

If it happened like the cops say, it was probably justified.  I like it when the cops pull over uninsured motorists. 

Bodycams on the cops would give us a clue....   but cops don't like those...   I wonder why...?

If you are stopped because you don't have a sticker on your plate and the cop finds you have no insurance, you should expect a ticket and have your car towed. Not sure what was happening here.
Police are fairly open to the idea of body cameras but are concerned about the costs which will be considerable and will take away from funding other police functions. Also, what will be the protocol for using them, they can't be left on all the time.

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 02:35:41 pm
I'm not sure officer safety and how to arrest violent suspects should really be dictated by public opinion. 

I think it's an important part of any policy.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2020, 02:47:31 pm
I think it's an important part of any policy.

Ignorance isn't an important part of any policy.

I know police officers who will no longer carry a taser because using it just isn't worth the grief they will get no matter how justified. Now they are faced with physically grappling with suspects that may outweigh them by 100 lbs, are high on something and may be HIV or Hep C positive. So yes, they need tools to do that and one is the knee to the neck but only for a few seconds until they can be cuffed. The ones I know think what happened to Floyd was outrageous and there is no excuse for it. They are understandably pissed at how it is affecting them.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 03:16:22 pm
Ignorance isn't an important part of any policy.

I know police officers who will no longer carry a taser because using it just isn't worth the grief they will get no matter how justified. Now they are faced with physically grappling with suspects that may outweigh them by 100 lbs, are high on something and may be HIV or Hep C positive. So yes, they need tools to do that and one is the knee to the neck but only for a few seconds until they can be cuffed. The ones I know think what happened to Floyd was outrageous and there is no excuse for it. They are understandably pissed at how it is affecting them.

The 'one bad apple' bullshit again. There are a lot of bad cops. That's reality.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2020, 03:20:59 pm
The 'one bad apple' bullshit again. There are a lot of bad cops. That's reality.

There is more than one bad apple but saying there are a lot of bad cops tars them all with the same brush and that's bullshit.

There has only been one officer involved shooting in my town in the 31 years I have live here and that was when one of our officers was gunned down in a parking lot two years ago. The police shot his killer but he survived and was convicted of first degree murder.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 03:52:25 pm
There is more than one bad apple but saying there are a lot of bad cops tars them all with the same brush and that's bullshit.

Their training is crap. It teaches them to be suspicious of the populace, and view them all as suspects. People who crave power are drawn to the job, making it worse.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2020, 04:10:31 pm
Their training is crap. It teaches them to be suspicious of the populace, and view them all as suspects. People who crave power are drawn to the job, making it worse.

What do you know about their training or how they are selected because you don't come across as knowing very much.
Personally, I don't know much about how the RCMP selects or trains but I know quite a bit about how BC municipal forces are selected and trained.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 04:35:22 pm
There is more than one bad apple but saying there are a lot of bad cops tars them all with the same brush and that's bullshit.

There are cops who are better than others, but there's no "good" cops, because it's an institution that is corrupt to its very core in every city.  When bad cops do bad things and good cops see it and do nothing about it, that makes them bad cops too.  The problem is if they report someone they are blackballed within the department.  Cops protect each other, its a brotherhood.  Cops are paid to catch criminals, but when one of their own is a criminal they turn the other cheek.  Therefore, NONE OF THEM are doing their job properly.

The only good cops are the ones that resign or are forced out because they have integrity.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2020, 04:42:53 pm
There are cops who are better than others, but there's no "good" cops, because it's an institution that is corrupt to its very core in every city.  When bad cops do bad things and good cops see it and do nothing about it, that makes them bad cops too.  The problem is if they report someone they are blackballed within the department.  Cops protect each other, its a brotherhood.  Cops are paid to catch criminals, but when one of their own is a criminal they turn the other cheek.  Therefore, NONE OF THEM are doing their job properly.

The only good cops are the ones that resign or are forced out because they have integrity.

That's just utter bullshit. Cops get fired regularly, you just don't hear about it.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on June 14, 2020, 04:58:21 pm
The 2nd cop came in too aggressive, but the chief 1. grabbed the 1st officer when he tried to put his wife in cuffs, 2. threatened the cop with some karate stance thing, twice, and 3. resisted arrested.
The chief broke 4 laws, the 1st cop showed extreme restraint as he waited for backup, and the 2nd cop (backup) acted a bit aggressively and arguably used too much force while the chief was resisting arrest after being warned.

almost all replays of the dashcam video only start with the 'take-down' by the 2nd arriving constable - an extended video replay offers missing... needed... perspective (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rcmp-chief-allan-adam-1.5608472)!
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 05:41:54 pm
almost all replays of the dashcam video only start with the 'take-down' by the 2nd arriving constable - an extended video replay offers missing... needed... perspective (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/rcmp-chief-allan-adam-1.5608472)!

I've seen the whole video before.  What good reason did the chief have for any of his behaviour, a bunch of illegal behaviour mind you?  The "poor victim" of a chief broke the law 3 times in the video, not including the expired plates, which makes it a minimum of 4 times breaking the law in 1 encounter BEFORE the 2nd cop came in.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 14, 2020, 05:44:58 pm
I agree that the RCMP are pieces of crap.

The 2nd cop came in too aggressive, but the chief 1. grabbed the 1st officer when he tried to put his wife in cuffs, 2. threatened the cop with some karate stance thing, twice, and 3. resisted arrested.

Cops had no right to put their hands on either one of those people.

It's a plate sticker. It's a ticket.
Back off.
Write the ticket.
Stop intentionally escalating so you can beat up an Indian.
Racist fucks.
Pulled her out, knew he'd defend her.
So common, such usual practice.
Racist **** **** fucks.
Bullies looking for a fight.

The cops had no justifiable reason to touch those people at all, and every reason to de-escalate.
We PAY those **** **** **** morons, and they can't even write a ticket without beating on someone.

Not a white person though.
They're not that stupid.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 05:51:16 pm
That's just utter bullshit. Cops get fired regularly, you just don't hear about it.

They usually only get fired when it goes public, they get fired when it's captured on video and people make a stink about it.  They get away with all sorts of terrible and illegal shit all the time and nothing is done.  Youtube has a zillion examples of it, and that's just the stuff caught on video by private citizens with a phone (but never made headline news).  The way to get fired is to make a chief look bad, most of the rest gets swept under the rug.

You can file a formal complaint against an officer but it usually ain't gonna do shit.  Police unions also have a lot of power.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on June 14, 2020, 05:53:03 pm
Cops had no right to put their hands on either one of those people.

the initial escalations didn't come from the RCMP constable. The women kept coming out of the truck... the woman driver even started to drive off. The 'chief' acts anything but... chiefly! Appears like he had a few pops in the casino - ya think!

Not a white person though. They're not that stupid.

ya ya, you're just pissed there's an extended video that calls into question the fabricated "saintly chief" portrayal being fronted
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 14, 2020, 05:59:51 pm
I've seen the whole video before.  What good reason did the chief have for any of his behaviour, a bunch of illegal behaviour mind you?  The "poor victim" of a chief broke the law 3 times in the video, not including the expired plates, which makes it a minimum of 4 times breaking the law in 1 encounter BEFORE the 2nd cop came in.

The cop put his hands on his wife.
He had no justification for arresting her.
The Chief berated him as he deserved to be.

They had no justification for arresting him, and he knew it, and he would not tolerate it.
Charges "resisting arrest". Arrest for what? Dropped.
Assaulting an officer? No. The officer put his hands on first.

You should read the news, keep up.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 14, 2020, 06:12:59 pm
They usually only get fired when it goes public, they get fired when it's captured on video and people make a stink about it.  They get away with all sorts of terrible and illegal **** all the time and nothing is done.  Youtube has a zillion examples of it, and that's just the stuff caught on video by private citizens with a phone (but never made headline news).  The way to get fired is to make a chief look bad, most of the rest gets swept under the rug.

You can file a formal complaint against an officer but it usually ain't gonna do ****.  Police unions also have a lot of power.

Everybody has a camera these days. Police are running scared. And they should be. And they are getting fired too.

That's the culture they work in, sustained by the brass.

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2020, 06:22:01 pm
The cops put their hands on his wife.
They had no justification for arresting her.
He berated them as they deserved to be.
They put their hands on him.
They had no justification for arresting him, and he knew it, and he would not tolerate it.
Charges "resisting arrest". Arrest for what? Dropped.
Assaulting an officer? No. The officer put his hands on first.

It depends on the reason why the cop was putting the wife in cuffs.  He may not have been arresting her, he may have been trying to detain her for some reason.  He may have been giving them lawful commands that they were not following.  I assume he probably told them to turn off the vehicle as is standard practice.  If you don't comply with lawful orders then it's the citizens escalating things, not the cops.  OR yes maybe the cop was doing something illegal.

The chief also had a history with the RCMP, he said ""Chief Adam f--king tells you, 'I'm tired of being harassed by the RCMP.'"

There's no point in commenting on the case until it gets to court and we find out all the details of what actually happened during the encounter, what was said etc.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 14, 2020, 06:27:20 pm
Of course that brings us to another problem. When the commanding officer reviewed the footage, he said it was fine. Whether or not it was technically fine isn't the point. Such a statement was tone deaf as ****.

The RCMP/NWMP was conceived as an agent of genocide.
To them, that's normal.
But it's not normal.

The Commissioner of the RCMP, Brenda Lucki, was called out as 'tone deaf' this week too. She did a 180 after she saw the video.

And even Lorne Gunter doesn't love it ...
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/gunter-the-unjustifiably-aggressive-takedown-of-chief-allan-adam
"Courtoreille manages to calm Adam down and diffuse the situation, which is when this first officer makes his one puzzling move: He seems to start arresting Courtoreille; grabs one of her arms and begins to twist it behind her back before letting her go.

Then the siren of another RCMP vehicle can be heard approaching and that’s when the whole incident goes wrong"

"But I cannot for the life of me see how Adam’s actions, no matter how obnoxious, justify him being thrown to the ground and punched.

There was no weapon. No punches. He wasn’t (at that point) resisting arrest or trying to flee. He was not being questioned about a violent crime – only expired licence plate tags."
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 06:40:29 pm
What do you know about their training or how they are selected because you don't come across as knowing very much.
Personally, I don't know much about how the RCMP selects or trains but I know quite a bit about how BC municipal forces are selected and trained.

Cop brother - he thinks all this shit is just fine.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: JMT on June 14, 2020, 06:42:39 pm
ya ya, you're just pissed there's an extended video that calls into question the fabricated "saintly chief" portrayal being fronted

That doesn't in any way excuse the actions of the second officer.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 15, 2020, 03:23:59 pm
  OR yes maybe the cop was doing something illegal.

Ya, maybe ... like a setup.

Quote
The chief also had a history with the RCMP, he said ""Chief Adam f--king tells you, 'I'm tired of being harassed by the RCMP.'"

The RCMP have a "history" of harassing the Chief.

Quote
There's no point in commenting on the case until it gets to court and we find out all the details of what actually happened during the encounter, what was said etc.

It won't make it to court.

*Yelling and swearing at police is not illegal.
No grounds for arrest.

* An out of date plate sticker may deserve a ticket.
No grounds for arrest.

* Resisting arrest is not a legitimate charge if there are
no grounds for arrest.
It gets thrown out  before court,
no reasonable prospect of conviction.

*Assaulting a police officer is not a legitimate charge if the officer put hands on him first
with no grounds for arrest.

What you have here is a setup, an old-fashioned police trick mostly abandoned by police forces because it is usually thrown out of court now.

This is an old and worn out setup for harassing Indigenous people, nothing more.

I'm not sure what charges can be laid against police, but I look forward to seeing them go down.
This is perhaps where the RCMP begin to learn that what is still common practice to them is systemic racism, unprofessional conduct and brutal assault to most people.

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 15, 2020, 05:20:50 pm
*Yelling and swearing at police is not illegal.
No grounds for arrest.

True.

The biggest thing the chief did wrong was threaten the cop and go into the karate stance.  This happened before the cop touched anyone.  He could get charged for that, but with this media uproar maybe they'll let it slide.

Quote
What you have here is a setup, an old-fashioned police trick mostly abandoned by police forces because it is usually thrown out of court now.

You could be right, who knows, we need more context.  I'd love to know more details on why the chief was so upset over a sticker for an expired plate.  He said the RCMP had been harassing him previously.  I'd like to hear more details about that.  Maybe they do have it out for the chief.  I know if cops were following me and nabbing me for tickets all the time I'd be PO'd too.  But at the same time, if he did have expired plates and that's on the chief, i don't see that as harassment unless they've been purposefully following this guy around town, which is possible.  Granny, you're making a lot of assumptions that could be true but aren't proven.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2020, 07:30:53 am
Chief Alan Adam:
https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/chief-allan-adam-calls-for-rcmp-overhaul-after-violent-arrest-video/

Athabasca Chipewyan Chief Allan Adam calls on the RCMP to acknowledge the presence of systemic racism in the ranks and reform their system as he recounts his rough treatment at the hands of police in an interview with APTN News.

“They have to overhaul their system. Systemic racism goes back with the RCMP over 150 years since they were formed, and it’s deep rooted that much,” Adam said in an interview on Friday. “They don’t even realize and they don’t even recognize anymore, is that it’s part of day to day life. It’s forgotten, but it’s deep rooted so bad that it is part of their norm.”


Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2020, 07:38:40 am
True.

The biggest thing the chief did wrong was threaten the cop and go into the karate stance.  This happened before the cop touched anyone.  He could get charged for that, but with this media uproar maybe they'll let it slide.

You could be right, who knows, we need more context.  I'd love to know more details on why the chief was so upset over a sticker for an expired plate.  He said the RCMP had been harassing him previously.  I'd like to hear more details about that.  Maybe they do have it out for the chief.  I know if cops were following me and nabbing me for tickets all the time I'd be PO'd too.  But at the same time, if he did have expired plates and that's on the chief, i don't see that as harassment unless they've been purposefully following this guy around town, which is possible.  Granny, you're making a lot of assumptions that could be true but aren't proven.

“He reached in to grab my wife and I said. ‘Take your hand off her.’ I got out and I went around the other side and I asked him, ‘Why are you doing this?’ Basically, he said he was doing what he was doing. I just stood there and watched what he did to my wife.”

The truck-bed obscures the view in the video somewhat at this point, but it looks like the cop starts twisting his wife’s arm and pushes her against the vehicle. Adam jumps out and steps between the two and assumes a fighting stance.


Then the other cops arrive and Adam is violently attacked.
Cop does the usual routine that cops do now that cameras are on them, of repeatedly yelling "Don't resist!" to someone who is not resisting, while cop brutally assaults him.

Cops may weasel out, but the impact is BIG this time.
The RCMP was conceived as an agent of government genocide against Indigenous people, and that discrimination it is built into their system. They don't even recognize it as systemic racism, so it is highly questionable whether the RCMP is capable of correcting itself.

Other police forces don't come to the defense of the RCMP much, because the RCMP doesn't cooperate with other police forces much. That refusal to cooperate allowed Willie Pickton et al to murder Indigenous women for over 20 years: The RCMP never followed up on VPD reports of women missing from Vancouver who ended up on Pickton's farm in RCMP territory.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/robert-pickton-case-torments-former-detective-lori-shenher-1.3223349

Meanwhile the debate goes on at high levels:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/senator-rcmp-commissioner-resign-1.5612939

Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2020, 09:19:02 am
The RCMP was created to control Indigenous people. Can that relationship be reset?

http://globalnews.ca/news/5381480/rcmp-indigenous-relationship/

Former RCMP officer Marge Hudson:
“It’s been going on forever and it’s going to continue going on forever because, quite frankly, they don’t really care,” she says. She laughs to herself whenever she sees an official in red serge appear on national news, profusely apologetic and promising to do better.

“OK,” she says, “but that doesn’t make sense. Just go out and do it.”

Can they? It’s a simple question with a complicated answer.

As Jocelyn Thorpe, a history and women and gender studies professor at the University of Manitoba, explains, the Mounties were created for a specific purpose: to assert sovereignty over Indigenous people and their lands.

“But if the whole system is based on this idea that some people matter more than others, there’s only so much that can be done.”




Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 16, 2020, 04:31:37 pm
The truck-bed obscures the view in the video somewhat at this point, but it looks like the cop starts twisting his wife’s arm and pushes her against the vehicle. Adam jumps out and steps between the two and assumes a fighting stance.[/i]

That was the 2nd time he did the fighting stance.  The first time was here before the cops touched anyone:

https://youtu.be/vtcRlTfgbLU?t=279

Quote
Then the other cops arrive and Adam is violently attacked.
Cop does the usual routine that cops do now that cameras are on them, of repeatedly yelling "Don't resist!" to someone who is not resisting, while cop brutally assaults him.


You realize Sometimes people do resist arrest.  When the cop grabs the chief's arm to put it behind his back the chief says something like "don't f*cking grab me" and pulls his arm up sharply away from the cop.  Then he's tackled by the 2nd cop.  It's really hard to see what's going on the ground before he's punched

I think they ran the chief's plates to get the expired plate back and then gave him a ticket.  The question is why did they run his plates in the first place?  It could be harrassment.  It could be due dilligence?  In the USA a cop can't run someone's plates unless they see the person committing a traffic violation/crime.  In Canada it may be different.  In the US a cop can't pull anyone over unless they do something illegal, in Canada cops can pull people over just to check if they have valid insurance etc.

I'd like to hear the context of everything, and why the chief is so upset.  Seems like the RCMP may have been harassing him if he's reacting to a expired plate ticket with that much anger.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2020, 07:18:06 pm
The RCMP was conceived as an agent of government genocide against Indigenous people
The RCMP was created to control Indigenous people.
the Mounties were created for a specific purpose: to assert sovereignty over Indigenous people and their lands.
/agenda driven revisionism


(https://i.imgur.com/94SgyY0.png)
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 21, 2020, 08:03:41 am
True.

The biggest thing the chief did wrong was threaten the cop and go into the karate stance.  This happened before the cop touched anyone.  He could get charged for that, but with this media uproar maybe they'll let it slide.
That's a defensive stance, not aggression.
Quote
You could be right, who knows, we need more context.  I'd love to know more details on why the chief was so upset over a sticker for an expired plate.  He said the RCMP had been harassing him previously.  I'd like to hear more details about that.  Maybe they do have it out for the chief.  I know if cops were following me and nabbing me for tickets all the time I'd be PO'd too.  But at the same time, if he did have expired plates and that's on the chief, i don't see that as harassment unless they've been purposefully following this guy around town, which is possible.  Granny, you're making a lot of assumptions that could be true but aren't proven.

Regardless, an expired plate sticker deserves a ticket, not arrest. The Chief's anger and yelling at the officer is not grounds for arrest, and it certainly is not grounds for the cop to put his hands on the Chief's wife who was the driver.

Nothing justifies the brutal beating and chokehold.

This is a classic example of what RCMP inflict on Indigenous people all the time.
The only difference is that Chief Allan Adam is speaking up, refusing to tolerate the racist harassment that the RCMP call 'policing'.

The RCMP have too many officers if they have time to indulge in such brutality.

Defunding the RCMP is definitely a viable option.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: the_squid on June 21, 2020, 04:04:12 pm
Quote
Regardless, an expired plate sticker deserves a ticket, not arrest.

Unless they refuse to get out or give up the car to have it towed.   Then the cops have to start hauling people out of the car.   
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 09:31:39 am
Unless they refuse to get out or give up the car to have it towed.   Then the cops have to start hauling people out of the car.

That's excessive for an out of date plate sticker.
Clearly it wasn't about the plate sticker.
It was just a classic RCMP setup opportunity to brutally beat an Indigenous person.
So typical.


Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: the_squid on June 22, 2020, 11:13:07 am
That's excessive for an out of date plate sticker.

So you think people should be allowed to drive away an uninsured car?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 12:35:41 pm
So you think people should be allowed to drive away an uninsured car?

I got a ticket for that once. Just a ticket.

Are you justifying RCMP beating Chief Adam up?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2020, 12:49:31 pm
I got a ticket for that once. Just a ticket.

Are you justifying RCMP beating Chief Adam up?

Did you have insurance? You will get a ticket if you have insurance but just neglected to put your on new sticker. No insurance means no drive where I live and you can't get a sticker without having insurance.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 03:24:45 pm
Did you have insurance? You will get a ticket if you have insurance but just neglected to put your on new sticker. No insurance means no drive where I live and you can't get a sticker without having insurance.

Are you justifying beating Chief Adam?
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: the_squid on June 22, 2020, 05:54:05 pm
I got a ticket for that once. Just a ticket.

Are you justifying RCMP beating Chief Adam up?

I don’t believe that they let you drive away without insurance.  You would’ve got a ticket and your car would’ve been towed. 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2020, 07:26:16 pm
Are you justifying beating Chief Adam?
Not justifying anything on either side, I just don’t buy your claim that it was a setup just beat someone up.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 09:06:24 pm
Not justifying anything on either side, I just don’t buy your claim that it was a setup just beat someone up.

It's a classic.

How about we disband the RCMP and make them provincial/territorial forces?

And cancel their new toys.

https://ipolitics.ca/2020/06/22/rcmp-plan-to-buy-more-armoured-vehicles-amid-new-scrutiny-over-policing-tactics/

“If there’s trust in the police force, there’s trust in how they use this equipment — and not abuse it.”

Ya that's a big NO.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 24, 2020, 03:45:20 pm
Chief Allan Adam's charges have been dropped.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/allan-adam-athabasca-chipewyan-first-nation-arrest-rcmp-assault-1.5624976
In a news conference later, Beresh said the Crown's decision to drop charges validates Adam's view that the arrest was "excessive, unreasonable and unwarranted."

Adam's March arrest became controversial following the release of dashcam video showing an RCMP officer tackling him to the ground.

In a statement, Alberta Justice spokesperson Carla Jones said the Crown withdrew the two charges after reassessing the prosecution standard based on an examination of available evidence, "including the disclosure of additional relevant material."
...
Adam's case gained national attention after dashcam video of the March 10 arrest in Fort McMurray showed an arriving officer tackling Adam to the ground without warning, punching him in the head and putting him in a chokehold.

"It is clear that his race played a role in the police decision to charge," Beresh said. He said Adam believes the charges were laid as a "police shield to their aggressive and abusive conduct."


It wasn't clear to me from the police dashcam video at what point the "assault" on a police officer was claimed to have happened. It may have referred to him slapping the cop's hands away when the cop manhandled his wife, but I never heard either officer tell Adam that he was being placed under arrest, nor what the charge was, as is required.

The cop who assaulted him is still on full duty, carrying a gun, while the incident is being investigated by ASIRT.

The cop who assaulted him is also awaiting trial on previous off-duty assault + charges.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 24, 2020, 06:21:54 pm
This is truly unbelievable ...
Either Lucki doesn't get it, or the RCMP won't allow her to speak the truth:

Asked about systemic racism in RCMP, Lucki discusses different heights of officers
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/asked-about-systemic-racism-in-rcmp-lucki-discusses-different-heights-of-officers-1.4998165

"So, of course, how many six foot people do we hire? And there are people in all different cultures that may not be six feet, including, there's not a lot of women that are six feet tall, that would not be able to get through that exam, that type of test."

I am just ... um ... well ... wow ... speechless ...
Tone deaf does not even begin to describe Commissioner Lucki's brain dead response.

Most police forces at least pay lip service to addressing racism in policing. Lol
 
The RCMP organization is clearly not up to the job of policing in the 21st century.
 
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 24, 2020, 06:47:24 pm
I hope Adam sues or lays charges so we can hear all the evidence.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 24, 2020, 11:41:22 pm
I hope Adam sues or lays charges so we can hear all the evidence.

It's going to ASIRT for investigation.

https://www.alberta.ca/about-asirt.aspx#:~:text=ASIRT%20can%20lay%20criminal%20charges,province's%20director%20of%20law%20enforcement
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2020, 07:33:08 pm
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-blair-defends-lucki-as-senators-call-rcmp-commissioner-embarrassing/

As calls to 'defund' police grow, some say it's time for the RCMP to do less
 
Public Safety is reviewing the RCMP's role in regional and municipal policing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-contract-policing-defund-1.5626544

The federal government is taking a closer look at the RCMP's contract policing obligations — a review taking on new relevance as calls mount to reallocate police budgets across North America.
...
Mounties are assigned to contract policing in roughly 150 municipalities, all three territories and in every province except Ontario and Quebec. The force also has federal policing obligations ranging from protecting the prime minister to thwarting terrorist attacks and investigating organized crime.


Well ... this looks serious.
I say divest the contracted community detachments to the provinces immediately.

There are already RCMP commanders in each province. Everybody still goes to work and goes home for dinner.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 28, 2020, 12:36:23 am
In the US and Canada and other western nations there are calls to defund the police while seeing a breakdown in the rule of law.  Meanwhile, the Chinese government offers zero human rights to its citizens and has the ability to control every single aspect of its society with an iron fist.  In short, China can direct society and the economy as much as any government can in order to strengthen the country and achieve it's domestic and international goals.  We're totally f*cked.
Title: Re: RCMP
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2020, 10:31:55 am
In the US and Canada and other western nations there are calls to defund the police while seeing a breakdown in the rule of law.  Meanwhile, the Chinese government offers zero human rights to its citizens and has the ability to control every single aspect of its society with an iron fist.  In short, China can direct society and the economy as much as any government can in order to strengthen the country and achieve it's domestic and international goals.  We're totally f*cked.

If you read between the lines you'll see that the term "defund the police" actually refers to restructuring of police forces such as contract policing i.e. the RCMP, to try to correct the current breakdown in the rule of law, specifically the racism within police forces. and if you think we are totally f*cked then you are welcome to move to china. I think the rest of us will stay here as we enjoy our human rights.