Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: Boges on July 02, 2019, 11:02:21 am


Title: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on July 02, 2019, 11:02:21 am
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-nixes-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker-after-colin-kaepernick-intervenes-11562024126

Quote
Nike Inc. NKE -0.52% is yanking a U.S.A.-themed sneaker featuring an early American flag after NFL star-turned-activist Colin Kaepernick told the company it shouldn’t sell a shoe with a symbol that he and others consider offensive, according to people familiar with the matter.

The sneaker giant created the Air Max 1 USA in celebration of the July Fourth holiday, and it was slated to go on sale this week. The heel of the shoe featured a U.S. flag with 13 white stars in a circle, a design created during the American Revolution and commonly referred to as the Betsy Ross flag.

[Related: Arizona governor pulls state aid for Nike plant over controversy]

After shipping the shoes to retailers, Nike asked for them to be returned without explaining why, the people said. The shoes aren’t available on Nike’s own apps and websites.

“Nike has chosen not to release the Air Max 1 Quick Strike Fourth of July as it featured the old version of the American flag,” a Nike spokeswoman said.

After images of the shoe were posted online, Mr. Kaepernick, a Nike endorser, reached out to company officials saying that he and others felt the Betsy Ross flag is an offensive symbol because of its connection to an era of slavery, the people said. Some users on social media responded to posts about the shoe with similar concerns. Mr. Kaepernick declined to comment.

I think the biggest problem with Liberalism this day and age is the way they analyze things in the past and apply current morality to it.

You see it all the time with analysis of TV shows and movies that don't stand up to today's "Woke" Standards.

So in this case a Nike shoe that celebrates figure that lived in the latter half of the 18th Century. Well over a hundred years before Slavery was abolished. This sets the standard that No Historic Figure can be celebrated if they were part of a country that took part in Slavery. The Founding Fathers should never be celebrated either. They were all white males that likely owned slaves.

It's a slippery slope and, I would argue, the strident nature of this re-addressing of history actually helps the far right. They can't paint the "Woke Crowd" as extremist.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 02, 2019, 12:14:46 pm
Future generations will judge todays SJW's by their own standards, not today's. It's only fair.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: waldo on July 02, 2019, 12:16:57 pm
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-nixes-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker-after-colin-kaepernick-intervenes-11562024126

I think the biggest problem with Liberalism this day and age is the way they analyze things in the past and apply current morality to it.

please sir... that should be small 'l'

You see it all the time with analysis of TV shows and movies that don't stand up to today's "Woke" Standards.

So in this case a Nike shoe that celebrates figure that lived in the latter half of the 18th Century. Well over a hundred years before Slavery was abolished. This sets the standard that No Historic Figure can be celebrated if they were part of a country that took part in Slavery. The Founding Fathers should never be celebrated either. They were all white males that likely owned slaves.

It's a slippery slope and, I would argue, the strident nature of this re-addressing of history actually helps the far right. They can't paint the "Woke Crowd" as extremist.

good to know/read that those with conservative wokeness are able to perceive... flush out... decry... as you say, "woke standards" of the "woke crowd".

paraphrasing David Brooks, political commentator:
Quote
The concept of woke: a plausible successor to the waning cool aesthetic; woke shares with cool a “rebel posture,” but where coolness is politically detached and individualistic, wokeness is “nationalistic and collectivist.” Cool is “emotionally reserved,” but “woke is angry.” “To be woke,” in short, “is to be radically aware and justifiably paranoid.”

by the by: assorted articles maintain that executives from New Balance, the only remaining major shoe company still manufacturing in the U.S., responded favourably to a Trump election victory and Trump statements related to manufacturing.  As a result, “The Daily Stormer”, (which identifies itself as a source for Republican news but is filled with anti-Semitic, pro-Nazi, and white nationalist posts), woke to declare New Balance footwear the “Official Shoes of White People.”
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 02, 2019, 12:40:58 pm
This is the dumbest story i've read in a while.  Nike are a bunch of cowards to bow to this kind of stupid nonsense.  I didn't think Nike could turn into a shittier company but surprise!

Maybe they should tear down the US Capital building because it was built in 1793.  I mean what insanity.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on July 02, 2019, 01:14:08 pm
by the by: assorted articles maintain that executives from New Balance, the only remaining major shoe company still manufacturing in the U.S., responded favourably to a Trump election victory and Trump statements related to manufacturing.  As a result, “The Daily Stormer”, (which identifies itself as a source for Republican news but is filled with anti-Semitic, pro-Nazi, and white nationalist posts), woke to declare New Balance footwear the “Official Shoes of White People.”

Then Kawhi Leonard is a tool of fascist Right. Shame.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: waldo on July 02, 2019, 06:50:40 pm
star athlete drops his Nike endorsement!

(https://i.imgur.com/jMvjfhK.png)
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest18 on July 02, 2019, 07:00:20 pm
Isn't it disrespectful to the flag to put it on the heel of a shoe anyway?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 02, 2019, 08:14:05 pm
When it comes to fit and comfort, Asics seem to work best for me
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 03, 2019, 03:42:17 am
This is fairly ridiculous.


First off, I think everybody would agree that Nike has the wish to manage their brand as they see fit.   And I think they're capable of making marketing decisions on their own. They've been somewhat successful in that area over the years.  Nike sells tens of billions of dollars of product every year; Ted Cruz lost the Republican nomination to a crook with a comb-over. I don't think Nike needs any branding advice from Ted "Totally not a robot" Cruz.


With that out of the way, a few more observations:

 -the kind of people who are offended by this are already boycotting Nike. Remember? All those people who said they were never going to buy another Nike product after Nike hired Colin Kaepernick as a representative?  "We said we were boycotting before, but now we're really really boycotting!" What are they going to do, refused to buy Nike products in their afterlife too?   

 -the kind of people who are outraged over this are probably not people who buy a lot of Nike products anyway. Ted Cruz might have some Nike golf shirts in his closet, but mostly the people who are mad about this are angry fat old rednecks whose typical workout is lifting forkfuls of deep fried fast food into their mouths.  Old white Deep South evangelicals... statistically speaking the most obese people on earth aside from some of the Pacific Islanders.  Until Nike starts a new line of electric mobility scooters, I don't think this is really Nike's demographic anyway.

 -I imagine Nike did the same calculus they did when they hired Colin Kaepernick in the first place. As in: comparing potential sales gains among "woke" millenials vs sales losses among old fat dumb rednecks, and decided it was an easy call.

 -the shoe is being billed as celebrating Betsy Ross, but I don't think that's really the case. People see that flag, they don't think "Betsy Ross", they think of the 13 Colonies era.  And the 13 Colonies era wasn't that great for black people.  The "Betsy Ross flag" shoes were probably only going to really appeal to people who long for simpler times. "This country was better back before all this (black/gay/immigrants/women's lib/etc) stuff."

 -if anybody can get their hands on a pair of these, it might be a cool collectors item some day!


Ted Cruz and others who are feigning indignation over this are just trying to wrap themselves in the flag and rile up dumb-people... more or less the same kind of voters who also fall for **** like "the kids ain't even allowed to pray in school anymore."



 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on July 03, 2019, 08:11:44 am
-the shoe is being billed as celebrating Betsy Ross, but I don't think that's really the case. People see that flag, they don't think "Betsy Ross", they think of the 13 Colonies era.  And the 13 Colonies era wasn't that great for black people.  The "Betsy Ross flag" shoes were probably only going to really appeal to people who long for simpler times. "This country was better back before all this (black/gay/immigrants/women's lib/etc) stuff."

Which takes me back to the point that, in this "Woke" era, celebrating anything about the Antebellum USA is wrong because those people weren't "woke" enough to realize slavery was wrong, so they're bad. It's a very slippery slope.

Also you're criticizing Ted Cruz for kinda doing the same thing as Kapernick. He spoke out about the shoe, Cruz spoke out about pulling the shoe.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 12:55:52 pm
Why would a shoe company want to become political.  You're inevitably going to make a big portion of the public PO'd.  Just sign an athlete/celebrity to a marketing deal and STFU.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 01:07:24 pm
Why would a shoe company want to become political.  You're inevitably going to make a big portion of the public PO'd.  Just sign an athlete/celebrity to a marketing deal and STFU.

Um, they did sign an athlete/celebrity to a marketing deal. His name is Kapernick and apparently he doesn't just STFU.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 01:33:40 pm
Um, they did sign an athlete/celebrity to a marketing deal. His name is Kapernick and apparently he doesn't just STFU.

He's a crappy athlete, they didn't sign him for his athleticism.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 02:00:55 pm
He's a crappy athlete, they didn't sign him for his athleticism.

Yeah I guess any old "crappy athlete" can work his way into being the starting QB for the San Fran 49ers. Maybe you are going down that road because you don't like his politics.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 02:14:57 pm
Yeah I guess any old "crappy athlete" can work his way into being the starting QB for the San Fran 49ers. Maybe you are going down that road because you don't like his politics.

Still, he wasn't hired for his athleticism.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 02:24:28 pm
Yeah I guess any old "crappy athlete" can work his way into being the starting QB for the San Fran 49ers. Maybe you are going down that road because you don't like his politics.

Did they sign him for his athleticism, or for his politics because they want to sell shoes to young black people & woke peeps?  Well now they're stuck with a guy who says ridiculous things.

Maybe Nike should put out an "Africa" Kaepernick shoe, and put the shape of the african continent stamped on the back of the heel.  Because we all know Africa is a symbol of slavery because hundreds of years ago black Africans raided rival villages, captured and enslaved their young men, and sold those slaves to white slavers who shipped them to America.

Woke justice woooo!!
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 02:27:19 pm
Did they sign him for his athleticism, or for his politics because they want to sell shoes to young black people & woke peeps?  Well now they're stuck with a guy who says ridiculous things.

Maybe Nike should put out an "Africa" Kaepernick shoe, and put the shape of the african continent stamped on the back of the heel.  Because we all know Africa is a symbol of slavery because hundreds of years ago black Africans raided rival villages, captured and enslaved their young men, and sold those slaves to white slavers who shipped them to America.

Woke justice woooo!!

They hired him due to a combination of his athleticism and his politics, and so far it is paying off quite well for both.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on July 03, 2019, 03:25:05 pm
Kaepernick may have been an appealing athlete, at one point, simply because of his ability as a football player. However his current persona is of a person who was blackballed from football for taking a political stand. 

People who say he sucked and that's why he's not in the NFL are wrong. There is ample evidence that he was/is better than dozens of QBs that are currently playing in the NFL.

And people who say he's currently being paid by Nike because he's a great QB are also wrong. He's being marketed as a political martyr.

Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 03:30:39 pm
 

And people who say he's currently being paid by Nike because he's a great QB are also wrong. He's being marketed as a political martyr.
[/quote]

Hence the removal of the 13 stara and stripes flag from the shoes. I'm sure the shoes are just fine.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on July 03, 2019, 03:46:11 pm
I understand why the shoes were pulled. I'm just saying that the logic used to justify saying it's offensive is rather questionable.

It would be like if someone said that using the term Upper Canada or Lower Canada was offensive because those terms were used at a time when First Nations were treated poorly.

Or using the Union Jack in a Canadian flag is offensive because it speaks to a time when the British Empire did condone Slavery.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: ?Impact on July 03, 2019, 03:54:31 pm
Adidas is the best shoe company there is, by a wide margin.

Adidas has a terrible track record of paying poverty wages in third world sweatshops.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 04:00:23 pm
I understand why the shoes were pulled. I'm just saying that the logic used to justify saying it's offensive is rather questionable.

It would be like if someone said that using the term Upper Canada or Lower Canada was offensive because those terms were used at a time when First Nations were treated poorly.

Or using the Union Jack in a Canadian flag is offensive because it speaks to a time when the British Empire did condone Slavery.

Slavery is/was offensive and all 13 colonies at the time practiced it. Hard to separate that issue from the reality. 
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 04:23:12 pm
Slavery is/was offensive and all 13 colonies at the time practiced it. Hard to separate that issue from the reality.

Slavery wasn't abolished in Britain until 1807 and the rest of the Empire until 1833, do we ignore British and Canadian history before those dates? Can the English and Scots no longer fly their national flags because they were used when slavery was still legal? France should also ditch the Tricolore because it was in use when slavery was still legal in France.

I'm not saying Nike shouldn't have ditched the shoe but where do you draw a line with this ****?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 04:39:21 pm
Slavery wasn't abolished in Britain until 1807 and the rest of the Empire until 1833, do we ignore British and Canadian history before those dates? Can the English and Scots no longer fly their national flags because they were used when slavery was still legal? France should also ditch the Tricolore because it was in use when slavery was still legal in France.

I'm not saying Nike shouldn't have ditched the shoe but where do you draw a line with this ****?

One could argue that removing the flag from the shoe is not ignoring history but doing exactly the opposite. 
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 04:54:35 pm
Slavery is/was offensive and all 13 colonies at the time practiced it. Hard to separate that issue from the reality.

Africans in Africa practiced far more slavery than the USA ever did.  Africa is offensive.

Indigenous North Americans practiced slavery pre-Columbus.  Natives are offensive.

The Greeks practiced slavery.  The Olympics are offensive, ban the rings symbol.

The Bible is filled with condoning slavery.  Ban the Bible & Christianity.  Crucifix = evil slave patriarchy

Slavery was practiced just about everywhere humans ever existed until a few hundred years ago. It was bad, we get it, half a million white Americans died fighting to stop it.

In a hundred years we'll all be deemed evil and offensive. Ban us, censor everyone, shut the internet down.  Lincoln slapped his son, that abusive bastard BAN HIM!! DESTROY THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL!
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 04:57:36 pm
I'm not saying Nike shouldn't have ditched the shoe but where do you draw a line with this ****?

The current US flag with 50 stars was adopted in 1960.  That was before they ended Jim Crow.  The US flag must be kept off all merchandise because it's racist.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 04:59:28 pm
One could argue that removing the flag from the shoe is not ignoring history but doing exactly the opposite.

Is everything prior to 1965 evil because of Jim Crow and slavery?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 05:01:13 pm
Africans in Africa practiced far more slavery than the USA ever did.  Africa is offensive.

Indigenous North Americans practiced slavery pre-Columbus.  Natives are offensive.

The Greeks practiced slavery.  The Olympics are offensive, ban the rings symbol.

The Bible is filled with condoning slavery.  Ban the Bible & Christianity.  Crucifix = evil slave patriarchy

Slavery was practiced just about everywhere humans ever existed until a few hundred years ago. It was bad, we get it, half a million white Americans died fighting to stop it.

In a hundred years we'll all be deemed evil and offensive. Ban us, censor everyone, shut the internet down.  Lincoln slapped his son, that abusive bastard BAN HIM!! DESTROY THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL!

Yep, the practice of slavery is/was offensive regardless of what country it was practiced in. And yep, you could ban all religions as far as I'm concerned. It seems people are, in varying degrees, still in effect slaves to them.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 05:09:45 pm
Yep, the practice of slavery is/was offensive regardless of what country it was practiced in.

Ok then, should we ban all Indigenous symbols that were created before they stopped practicing slavery?

The point is, in the past there was good and bad in all cultures.  There still is.  It's ok to be proud of your heritage even if it's flawed.  Live and learn.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 05:33:46 pm
Ok then, should we ban all Indigenous symbols that were created before they stopped practicing slavery?

The point is, in the past there was good and bad in all cultures.  There still is.  It's ok to be proud of your heritage even if it's flawed.  Live and learn.

Should we ignore the fact that certain symbols have attachments to former practices such as slavery? Live and learn is of course a good concept but equally important is the concept that "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 06:14:39 pm
One could argue that removing the flag from the shoe is not ignoring history but doing exactly the opposite.

You could. I wouldn't.
As I said, where do you draw the line. Every US flag up until 1865 had stars on it representing slave states.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 06:30:52 pm
You could. I wouldn't.
As I said, where do you draw the line. Every US flag up until 1865 had stars on it representing slave states.

Nobody is banning any flags. Nike is simply removing it from a shoe. Keep whatever flag you like but don't ignore it's historical realities. 
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 06:36:32 pm
Nobody is banning any flags. Nike is simply removing it from a shoe. Keep whatever flag you like but don't ignore it's historical realities.

Looking at a flag is not ignoring historical realities. Denying its existence is. I don't care what Nike does. Let's face it, we can make up reasons not to recognize any flag, including our own.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 07:48:29 pm
You could. I wouldn't.
As I said, where do you draw the line. Every US flag up until 1865 had stars on it representing slave states.

Every flag back then wasn't trying to sell Nike shoes with Colin Kaepernick as spokesperson.
It's just capitalism. Lol
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 08:50:19 pm
Should we ignore the fact that certain symbols have attachments to former practices such as slavery? Live and learn is of course a good concept but equally important is the concept that "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"

Certain symbols obviously encompass things like slavery (confederate flag) or genocide (Nazi symbol), because those negative things are or are a major part of their raison d'etre.

The Betsy Ross flag & the 13 original colonies mean a lot more than slavery, just like the Red Ensign means a lot more than LGBT who couldn't get married or women who couldn't vote.  If largely positive symbols now only mean the negative components of them then like i've said we need to ban or disassociate a lot of symbols, like the Christian crucifix, Israeli flag etc.  There's going to be groups with endless gripes with everything because history is never sparkling clean.

The US Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, and US Bill of Rights are 3 of the greatest things ever written in the history of human civilization.   They have a few flaws, they've largely been fixed.  The 13 colonies did not secede from Britain for slavery's sake. It's a crazy slippery slope that will never end.  These types of people whether they realize it or not wish to slowly redefine the history of much of western civilization as a history of an oppressive white male patriarchy.  Sure in some ways it was, but there's so much more to it than that. I'd rather celebrate it while recognizing its flaws & as a step towards progress than denigrate it as evil.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 09:44:59 pm
Certain symbols obviously encompass things like slavery (confederate flag) or genocide (Nazi symbol), because those negative things are or are a major part of their raison d'etre.

The Betsy Ross flag & the 13 original colonies mean a lot more than slavery, just like the Red Ensign means a lot more than LGBT who couldn't get married or women who couldn't vote.  If largely positive symbols now only mean the negative components of them then like i've said we need to ban or disassociate a lot of symbols, like the Christian crucifix, Israeli flag etc.  There's going to be groups with endless gripes with everything because history is never sparkling clean.

The US Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, and US Bill of Rights are 3 of the greatest things ever written in the history of human civilization.   They have a few flaws, they've largely been fixed.  The 13 colonies did not secede from Britain for slavery's sake. It's a crazy slippery slope that will never end.  These types of people whether they realize it or not wish to slowly redefine the history of much of western civilization as a history of an oppressive white male patriarchy.  Sure in some ways it was, but there's so much more to it than that. I'd rather celebrate it while recognizing its flaws & as a step towards progress than denigrate it as evil.

And some types of people, (perhaps those mostly responsible for it) are trying to redefine history to erase that white male oppressive patriarchy. See the difference?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 10:21:41 pm
And some types of people, (perhaps those mostly responsible for it) are trying to redefine history to erase that white male oppressive patriarchy. See the difference?

No. The history of western civilization is far from squeaky clean but in fact it has evolved the majority of successful liberal democracies on the planet, perhaps all of them. They didn't just happen. Apparently evolution isn't woke.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 10:30:25 pm
No. The history of western civilization is far from squeaky clean but in fact it has evolved the majority of successful liberal democracies on the planet, perhaps all of them. They didn't just happen. Apparently evolution isn't woke.

Yes of course we have done well and so good for us we can rest on our laurels to a point. What I disagree with is, especially in the US, that people like to dismiss the fact that the basis of their wealth came from the backs of slaves.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 10:36:30 pm
Yes of course we have done well and so good for us we can rest on our laurels to a point. What I disagree with is, especially in the US, that people like to dismiss the fact that the basis of their wealth came from the backs of slaves.

Do they? The millions of post bellum immigrants didn't have anything to do with it?
Most of Canada's initial wealth was built on fur trade using indigenous peoples.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 10:58:06 pm
And some types of people, (perhaps those mostly responsible for it) are trying to redefine history to erase that white male oppressive patriarchy. See the difference?

They are 2 sides of the same coin, aren't they?  I don't agree with either.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 11:31:10 pm
Do they? The millions of post bellum immigrants didn't have anything to do with it?
Most of Canada's initial wealth was built on fur trade using indigenous peoples.

Thanks for enforcing my point.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 03, 2019, 11:38:43 pm
There seems to be some confusion here.

Nike isn't attempting to tear down monuments, remove museum exhibits, rewrite history books, or anything like that.  Nike is cancelling a limited-edition batch of overpriced running shoes.    Deleting a line of shoes that nobody had even heard of 2 weeks ago is certainly not in the same discussion as tearing down statues of John A MacDonald or Robert E Lee.

Certainly the ugly parts of our history need to be remembered and discussed. The heel of someone's shoe is not the right place for that discussion.  This is an issue of Nike's branding, not of remembering our history.

A piece of context that has been missing from most of this discussion is WHY Kaepernick objected to the shoes and why Nike changed their mind about releasing them.  It's not simply that the Betsy Ross flag was in use during the early days of the US when slavery was still legal.  It's that the Betsy Ross flag has been adopted by some far-right and white-power groups. And that is why Nike changed their mind about associating themselves with it.


Why do rednecks, far-right, and white-power groups like the Betsy Ross flag?  About the same reason they like the Confederate flag, the Gadsden ("Don't Tread On Me") flag, or in Canada the Red Ensign.  They like these old-time flags because they represent a time before the liberals ruined everything with their ideas of civil rights for women and homos and colored-folk.

 -k





Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 03, 2019, 11:58:49 pm
Why do rednecks, far-right, and white-power groups like the Betsy Ross flag?  About the same reason they like the Confederate flag, the Gadsden ("Don't Tread On Me") flag, or in Canada the Red Ensign.  They like these old-time flags because they represent a time before the liberals ruined everything with their ideas of civil rights for women and homos and colored-folk.

That's true, but it also doesn't mean the Gadsden flag or Red Ensign or Betsy Ross flag should be primarily associated with these nutty groups.  It's obviously a much different thing than the confederate flag, where the confederacy's primary purpose of existence was to defend the right to hold slaves.

Nike banning the Betsy Ross flag is like that Sir John A pub in Kingston changing its name.  Sure its up to the business but it's still dumb mission-creep and sets precedents others will follow and others will feel emboldened to try to enforce. Luckily we live in a free capitalist society and consumers will reign in the end, but we can still have an opinion on it.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 04, 2019, 12:09:10 am
Yes of course we have done well and so good for us we can rest on our laurels to a point. What I disagree with is, especially in the US, that people like to dismiss the fact that the basis of their wealth came from the backs of slaves.

The basis of some of their wealth, especially earlier on, yes for sure.  The north still did very well after banning slavery, and the US as a whole did very well post-civil war.  A massive landmass rich with resources and so temperate and habitable it could easily accommodate far more people & expansion than any other western country did benefit well from slavery but was not at its mercy.

Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 12:13:50 am
The basis of some of their wealth, especially earlier on, yes for sure.  The north still did very well after banning slavery, and the US as a whole did very well post-civil war.  A massive landmass rich with resources and so temperate and habitable it could easily accommodate far more people & expansion than any other western country did benefit well from slavery but was not at its mercy.

Um, who's mercy were slaves at? And even after slavery was legally banned in the north it effectively carried on for a number of years.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 09:48:20 am
Thanks for enforcing my point.
How so? As PG has pointed out, the Betsy Ross flag was also the flag that spawned the US Constitution and Bill of rights. Slavery was present under the Union Jack as well and colonialism is the reason for this country's existence but it is also the flag of the country that stood alone against Hitler for more than a year and over 100,000 Canadians died fighting under. Selective history is practiced just as much by those who would suppress such as the Betsy Ross flag’s use, as by those far right groups who would try and make it a symbol of white supremacy.

Who really cares what Nike does but this episode is an example of a disturbing trend in our society.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 11:43:33 am
The Betsy Ross flag is the first national flag of the United States. National flags belong to the country and its people, not to groups. Rather than push back against those groups who want to claim it as their own, a PC, don't want to offend anyone society is willing to just let them have it. It's rather pathetic.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 11:59:48 am
The Betsy Ross flag is the first national flag of the United States. National flags belong to the country and its people, not to groups. Rather than push back against those groups who want to claim it as their own, a PC, don't want to offend anyone society is willing to just let them have it. It's rather pathetic.

I don't think anyone is denying the existence of that flag or it's place in past history. I guess some people just don't wish to honor that flag these days due to it's connection with some of the nasty realities of that history.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 12:16:28 pm
I don't think anyone is denying the existence of that flag or it's place in past history. I guess some people just don't wish to honor that flag these days due to it's connection with some of the nasty realities of that history.

Name me one flag that doesn't have some nasty historical realities.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 12:33:49 pm
Name me one flag that doesn't have some nasty historical realities.

You are free to stitch whichever flag you choose to your running shoes.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 12:37:02 pm
You are free to stitch whichever flag you choose to your running shoes.

To me this isn't about Nike but today's selective history mentality and morality.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 12:46:39 pm
To me this isn't about Nike but today's selective history mentality and morality.

As the thread title suggests, it all comes down to the slavery issue.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 12:54:04 pm
As the thread title suggests, it all comes down to the slavery issue.

Exactly, pick a single issue, ignore everything else and you can find a reason to reject just about anything.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: ?Impact on July 04, 2019, 01:26:07 pm
Most of Canada's initial wealth was built on fur trade using indigenous peoples.

I would say most of that wealth went to the UK and France. Probably timber contributed the most to our initial wealth.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 04, 2019, 01:34:51 pm
Selective history is practiced just as much by those who would suppress such as the Betsy Ross flag’s use, as by those far right groups who would try and make it a symbol of white supremacy.

I completely agree.  Slavery is a part of the Betsy Ross flag, so is colonial exploitation of aboriginals, but it doesn't define it, it's far more complex than that.  Slavery and crapping on aboriginals were very common at that time.  Canada i'm sure would have participated in the same kind of mass slavery had they the same kind of plantation crops the southern US did.  We're not holier than thou, nobody is, including African Americans whose African brethren enslaved and sold them to the European slavers in the first place.  We're all human & all in a historical process of progress and human rights.  The American Revolution/13 colonies were a very key component of that.

Quote
Who really cares what Nike does but this episode is an example of a disturbing trend in our society.

I agree.  We have a choice to be ashamed of our past, or be proud of it (if there's things to be proud).  I would rather be proud of it while recognizing our flaws, and proud of the fact that we've progressed as a society beyond the many stupid things we've done in the past that were often the standard of those times. 
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 04, 2019, 01:41:23 pm
I would say most of that wealth went to the UK and France. Probably timber contributed the most to our initial wealth.

Not very early on, like 17th century.  No idea what happened after that economically so that may have happened after.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 02:44:47 pm
Montreal was built on the fur trade.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 08:44:45 pm
As the thread title suggests, it all comes down to the slavery issue.
It all comes down to capitalism. Lol
Nike's pulling them from the stores and selling them out the back door for huge prices ... to racists.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest67 on July 04, 2019, 08:51:37 pm
Adidas has a terrible track record of paying poverty wages in third world sweatshops.

If you bother researching this issue, Nike is much worse.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest18 on July 04, 2019, 09:08:56 pm
What research are you referring to?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 05, 2019, 01:40:12 am
That's true, but it also doesn't mean the Gadsden flag or Red Ensign or Betsy Ross flag should be primarily associated with these nutty groups.  It's obviously a much different thing than the confederate flag, where the confederacy's primary purpose of existence was to defend the right to hold slaves.

Nike banning the Betsy Ross flag is like that Sir John A pub in Kingston changing its name.  Sure its up to the business but it's still dumb mission-creep and sets precedents others will follow and others will feel emboldened to try to enforce. Luckily we live in a free capitalist society and consumers will reign in the end, but we can still have an opinion on it.


Maybe at earlier points in history the Gadsden flag symbolized something noble, but since 2008 the Gadsden flag has been completely co-opted by the far right.  If you're flying a Gadsden flag in 2019, people are going to associate you with that element whether that was your intention or not.

If Nike had in 2008 put out apparel commemorating the Gadsden flag just as it was becoming the emblem of the Tea Partyists and the far right fringe, it would have been a PR debacle for Nike.  They're trying to avoid that happening in 2019 because if the Betsy Ross flag is in the process of being adopted by far right fringe groups, the last thing Nike wants is for their brand to be associated with those goons.


If somebody wants to fly or wear a Betsy Ross flag for whatever reason, they don't need to pay Nike $300 for the privilege. Nike doesn't own it, they aren't banning it, and they can't prevent anybody from using it. All Nike is doing is ensuring that their carefully-built brand name doesn't get dragged into whatever controversies await the Betsy Ross flag in the days ahead.

 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 02:02:14 am
Maybe at earlier points in history the Gadsden flag symbolized something noble, but since 2008 the Gadsden flag has been completely co-opted by the far right.  If you're flying a Gadsden flag in 2019, people are going to associate you with that element whether that was your intention or not.

Well that's too bad because the Gadsden flag is one of the most badass flags of all-time.

Is this song now racist 30 years later?  Is the cover of the Black Album featuring the Gadsden snake now racist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naik2ZC7HD4
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 02:03:09 am
It's kind of like how i can't wear rainbows anymore because people will think i'm gay.  Whereas decades ago a rainbow just meant a rainbow.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest18 on July 05, 2019, 09:02:18 am
Nobody who isn't gay ever wore rainbows though.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 05, 2019, 09:42:00 am
Well that's too bad because the Gadsden flag is one of the most badass flags of all-time.

Is this song now racist 30 years later?  Is the cover of the Black Album featuring the Gadsden snake now racist?

No and no.  But if Tea Party tards started playing that song at their rallies, Metallica would probably be pretty pissed.  Also I'm not sure but I don't think Metallica really supports that kind of ra-ra nationalism... I think the song may be intended ironically or sarcastically.


I think the Gadsden flag is awesome, but it has become associated with a movement.  I think that the Tea Party movement is pretty much finished, and maybe the Gadsden flag's association with the far right will fade as well. But at present if you display it, people will still assume you're a Tea Partyist and assume everything that comes with it about you as well.

(https://i.imgur.com/FSS2E7Z.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gRuTBvX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9Q2T2UR.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 05, 2019, 10:02:26 am
I don’t blame Nike and I am in no position to criticize Kaepernick for feeling the way he does but the parallels between this and Macdonald are clear.

In the case of Macdonald, he was largely responsible for the residential school system but he was also more responsible for this country’s present shape than any other person. But for him, BC would be part of the US, Canada wouldn’t have a West Coast and there would be no discussions of pipelines to tidewater.

In the case of America’s first national flag, instead of it being about the birth of a country with all its greatness and warts, it has become just about racism and slavery.

One might say we should take a more balanced view of both and recognize both the good and bad but that isn’t what happens, there always has to be a winner and loser when it comes to ideology. In the case of Macdonald, it is all about residential schools so his memory must be erased, Canada suppresses a big piece of it’s history to be replaced with an alternate truth. Canada loses. In the case of the Betsy Ross flag, it is the first Stars and Stripes. America is voluntarily giving its first national flag to a bunch of white supremacists. White supremacists win.

The Gadsden flag was a revolutionary flag but it was never a national flag.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 11:00:21 am
Nobody who isn't gay ever wore rainbows though.

If you're a girl they did.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 11:07:42 am
No and no.  But if Tea Party tards started playing that song at their rallies, Metallica would probably be pretty pissed.  Also I'm not sure but I don't think Metallica really supports that kind of ra-ra nationalism... I think the song may be intended ironically or sarcastically.

That's not true, it's a legit patriotic song.  If you watch the documentary of Metallica recording the Black Album the song is on, you can see them hanging the Gadsden Flag in the studio.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 11:21:07 am
I don’t blame Nike and I am in no position to criticize Kaepernick for feeling the way he does but the parallels between this and Macdonald are clear.

In the case of Macdonald, he was largely responsible for the residential school system but he was also more responsible for this country’s present shape than any other person. But for him, BC would be part of the US, Canada wouldn’t have a West Coast and there would be no discussions of pipelines to tidewater.

What most people don't know or realize is that Canada was born out of fear of invasion from the USA.  Canada was a bunch of separate colonies prior to 1867.  20 years earlier in 1848 the US went to war with Mexico, beat them, and annexed Texas, and were expanding westward.  Then the US civil war ended in 1865, and the US was left with this massive standing army of trained soldiers who now had nothing to do.  The US then bought Alaska from Russia in 1867.  It's no coincidence Canadian colonies felt the need that same year to unite in order to defend themselves against a possible US invasion.

If not for MacDonald's efforts, Canada could right now be America's 51st state and we'd all be saluting Trump as our POTUS.  For the indigenous who rightfully aren't so pleased with how Canada/MacDonald has treated them, ask them how the think the likes of Trump, the Bushes, Reagan etc, and a country filled with anti-black slave-owning Jim Crow white supremacists would have treated them.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2019, 11:34:00 am
https://twitter.com/Kaepernick7/status/1146826827593342977

Quote from: Frederick Douglass, American social reformer, abolitionist, orator, writer, and statesman
What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? This Fourth of July is yours, not mine…There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of these United States at this very hour.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 01:16:08 pm
There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of these United States at this very hour.

Yes there is, almost every single one of them.  His own brothers in Africa raided rival villages and enslaved Africans to sell to the white slave traders. That doesn't mean slavery/Jim Crow wasn't horrific and the worst of humanity.

Quote
What have I, or those I represent, to do with your national independence? This Fourth of July is yours, not mine.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." - Lincoln

States in the North started banning slavery between 1777-1804 after the American Revolution based on the equality principles of the Declaration of  Independence of July 4th, 1776.  As per above, about a million Americans died during Civil War trying to free the rest of the slaves in the South to uphold the Declaration principles laid out on July 4th, 1776.

I get Kaepernick's point, I just don't think his narrative is a unifying or entirely constructive one.  To wipe your hands of a nation that both enslaved your ancestors and fought & died en masse to free them...why not embrace the good and condemn the bad?  Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 01:25:47 pm
White woman athlete won't sing US anthem in protest:

Quote
U.S. soccer star Megan Rapinoe did not join her teammates in singing the national anthem before the team’s opening match against Thailand in the Women’s World Cup on Tuesday.

According to multiple news reports, Rapinoe stood on silently as other members of the women's national soccer team sang “The Star-Spangled Banner” prior to kick-off.  The act comes several years after Rapinoe became the first white player to kneel during the national anthem after former San Francisco 49ers star Colin Kaepernick in 2016 began the protest to bring attention to police brutality and racial inequality.

Since then, the soccer player has refused to join her teammates in singing the anthem, including at another match-up her team recently played in Reims, France, according to Fox News.

When discussing her decision to protest the national anthem in an interview in May, Rapinoe called herself a “walking protest” to Trump’s policies and said she views her decision to kneel during the anthem as a "F you" to his administration. "I feel like it's kind of defiance in and of itself to just be who I am and wear the jersey, and represent it," Rapinoe said then. "Because I'm as talented as I am, I get to be here, you don't get to tell me if I can be here or not.” “So it's kind of a good ‘F you' to any sort of inequality or bad sentiments that the [Trump] administration might have towards people who don't look exactly like him. Which, God help us if we all looked like him,” she added. “Scary. Really scary." “Colin Kaepernick very much inspired me, and inspired an entire nation, and still does, to actually think about these things,” she continued.
https://twitter.com/yourrightscamp/status/1138876605978238976

Instead this a better way to protest? 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg/220px-John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr.jpg)
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 01:57:57 pm
Is this really where we're heading?  They're renaming streets, schools, and burning artwork now (well, painting over), when will they start burning books?  They'll ban books before starting to burn them.

Quote
San Francisco to paint over historic George Washington mural

San Francisco will spend up to $600,000 to paint over historical artwork at a public school depicting the life of George Washington, a mural once seen as educational and innovative but now criticized as racist and degrading for its depiction of black and Native American people.

The “Life of Washington” was painted by Victor Arnautoff, one of the foremost muralists in the San Francisco area during the Depression. The San Francisco School Board’s decision to paint over the 83-year-old mural is prompting some to worry that other artwork from the so-called New Deal era could face a similar fate because of changing sensitivities.

https://apnews.com/9f3037c7ec9d48a286059ac8f9975afe

The entire west coast of north america is infected with this kind of thinking.  California, Oregon (Portland etc), Washington state (Seattle etc), British Colombia...it's a disease of the intellect. 

The progressive left not long ago was fiercely anti-censorship and pro free-speech. They battled to have our art not censored (TV, film, music/lyrics, violent video games, comic books etc).  Conservatives wanted to ban "rap music" and "disgusting music videos" and "pornography" etc.  Now it's flipped and the progressives want to censor everything "shocking" to their sensibilities, they fiercely pro-censorship and conservatives & old progressive left are fighting for free speech.  What have we become?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest18 on July 05, 2019, 02:13:44 pm
People who see a society composed of either "progressive left" or "right wing" and who then marvel at the hypocrisy of individuals we see in those groups not perfectly conforming to the stereotype we have preassigned them?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 04:02:43 pm
People who see a society composed of either "progressive left" or "right wing" and who then marvel at the hypocrisy of individuals we see in those groups not perfectly conforming to the stereotype we have preassigned them?

I don't understand what you're trying to say. I also never said there are only 2 types of ideologies in society.  I also referred to "the old progressive left" which still exists, then there's the new "social justice" progressives, there's moderates, libertarians, alt-right folks, Christian conservatives, regular old fiscal Thatcher/Reagan-style conservatives, communists etc. etc.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: ?Impact on July 05, 2019, 04:09:59 pm
regular old fiscal Thatcher/Reagan-style conservatives

regular?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 05, 2019, 04:37:40 pm
Yes there is, almost every single one of them.  His own brothers in Africa raided rival villages and enslaved Africans to sell to the white slave traders. That doesn't mean slavery/Jim Crow wasn't horrific and the worst of humanity.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." - Lincoln

States in the North started banning slavery between 1777-1804 after the American Revolution based on the equality principles of the Declaration of  Independence of July 4th, 1776.  As per above, about a million Americans died during Civil War trying to free the rest of the slaves in the South to uphold the Declaration principles laid out on July 4th, 1776.

I get Kaepernick's point, I just don't think his narrative is a unifying or entirely constructive one.  To wipe your hands of a nation that both enslaved your ancestors and fought & died en masse to free them...why not embrace the good and condemn the bad?  Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

That speech by Douglass was also made nine years before the Civil War.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 05, 2019, 04:46:42 pm
Speaking of shoes. Interesting artilcle.

https://www.choice.com.au/health-and-body/diet-and-fitness/sportswear-and-shoes/articles/shoe-factory-working-conditions
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 05:27:05 pm
regular?

old?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2019, 05:28:53 pm
Speaking of shoes. Interesting artilcle.

https://www.choice.com.au/health-and-body/diet-and-fitness/sportswear-and-shoes/articles/shoe-factory-working-conditions

Why are shoe companies always targeted for poor worker working conditions?  There's thousands of other companies doing the same thing.  Clothing companies in general are notorious.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 05, 2019, 05:32:33 pm
Why are shoe companies always targeted for poor worker working conditions?  There's thousands of other companies doing the same thing.  Clothing companies in general are notorious.
True.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 07, 2019, 11:39:59 am
Colin Kaepernick is doing what he does.  Ted Cruz is doing what he does.  And most significantly, Nike is doing what they do.

Nike's stock price has gone up since this controversy started. Nike's market cap has increased by about $3 billion dollars.  That should be a sufficient reply to anybody who thinks that hiring Mr Kaepernick as a spokesman was a mistake, or to people who are criticizing Nike for "going off mission".  Nike's primary mission is to make money, and hiring Kaepernick is observably helping them do just that.

Cruz and McConnell are helping Nike make money too. Without their help, this controversy would have been a tempest in a tea-pot.  Nike should send them both a pair of sneakers as a thank-you.

 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 07, 2019, 11:54:15 am
People who see a society composed of either "progressive left" or "right wing" and who then marvel at the hypocrisy of individuals we see in those groups not perfectly conforming to the stereotype we have preassigned them?

On that note: this research indicates the large majority of Americans don't fit into either the "progressive left" or the "right wing". And a vast majority are tired of political correctness and language policing and all of that stuff.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 07, 2019, 12:27:43 pm
On that note: this research indicates the large majority of Americans don't fit into either the "progressive left" or the "right wing". And a vast majority are tired of political correctness and language policing and all of that stuff.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/large-majorities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

 -k

Is that majority being drowned out by the dominance of progressive lefties and right wingers on social media? One wonders. All in all a positive article, maybe there is hope for us.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: guest18 on July 07, 2019, 12:55:12 pm
Totally. The extremists always get the most clicks and attention and they are used by both sides to try and divide the population of normal people.
But only one side has the extremists running the show.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: wilber on July 07, 2019, 01:28:46 pm
Totally. The extremists always get the most clicks and attention and they are used by both sides to try and divide the population of normal people.
But only one side has the extremists running the show.

I think it is at a religious level with many on both sides.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: kimmy on July 07, 2019, 01:39:09 pm
Is that majority being drowned out by the dominance of progressive lefties and right wingers on social media? One wonders. All in all a positive article, maybe there is hope for us.

Well, the article also described the majority with terms like disengaged and exhausted. I think most are simply tuned out of the debate completely.  The dominance of the extremes on social media to some degree reflects the disinterest of the majority.

 -k
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: ?Impact on July 07, 2019, 02:10:23 pm
Nike's stock price has gone up since this controversy started.

I guess the target market for an athletic wear company is not fat old white folks.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: JMT on July 07, 2019, 05:10:02 pm
https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/stuff-you-need-to-know/news/?message=50612
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Super Colin Blow on July 22, 2019, 08:39:00 pm
Colin Kaepernick is doing what he does.  Ted Cruz is doing what he does.  And most significantly, Nike is doing what they do.

Nike's stock price has gone up since this controversy started. Nike's market cap has increased by about $3 billion dollars.  That should be a sufficient reply to anybody who thinks that hiring Mr Kaepernick as a spokesman was a mistake, or to people who are criticizing Nike for "going off mission".  Nike's primary mission is to make money, and hiring Kaepernick is observably helping them do just that.

Cruz and McConnell are helping Nike make money too. Without their help, this controversy would have been a tempest in a tea-pot.  Nike should send them both a pair of sneakers as a thank-you.

 -k

Nike shareholders are being rewarded by the market, and Nike's financials. I doubt Kaepernick's politics affects it one way or another.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: cybercoma on July 23, 2019, 09:21:02 am
please sir... that should be small 'l'
Even then it's incorrect. This has nothing to do with the political and economic philosophy of liberalism.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: cybercoma on July 23, 2019, 09:26:35 am
Which takes me back to the point that, in this "Woke" era, celebrating anything about the Antebellum USA is wrong because those people weren't "woke" enough to realize slavery was wrong, so they're bad. It's a very slippery slope.
If you can't even say that slavery was bad, your moral compass probably needs to be tweaked.  The worst parts of history don't need to be glorified. And it's not a bad thing that we recognize the meaning that history has for different people, especially when its disastrousconsequences have echoed through generations.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: cybercoma on July 23, 2019, 09:28:09 am
Adidas has a terrible track record of paying poverty wages in third world sweatshops.
Is there a shoe company that doesn't?
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: cybercoma on July 23, 2019, 09:29:59 am
Slavery wasn't abolished in Britain until 1807 and the rest of the Empire until 1833, do we ignore British and Canadian history before those dates? Can the English and Scots no longer fly their national flags because they were used when slavery was still legal? France should also ditch the Tricolore because it was in use when slavery was still legal in France.

I'm not saying Nike shouldn't have ditched the shoe but where do you draw a line with this ****?
Context matters. The 13 colonies flag represents a specific time and sociopolitical environment in the United States, while the English and Scottish flags are not tied to a specific era.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: cybercoma on July 23, 2019, 09:39:34 am
It's kind of like how i can't wear rainbows anymore because people will think i'm gay.  Whereas decades ago a rainbow just meant a rainbow.
Symbols are given meaning. Yeah. You seem to be complaining about that, as if you want to have your own personal meaning for things. It just doesn't work that way. Meaning is negotiated and socially constructed between people. It must be in order to be understood. You can feel free to completely ignore that fact, but then people will have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Words and symbols (like flags) have both denotation as well as connotation. If you ignore connotation, you're not getting the full meaning of symbols.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: ?Impact on July 23, 2019, 12:33:20 pm
Is there a shoe company that doesn't?

Veja - https://www.veja-store.com/en/
Native shoes - https://www.nativeshoes.com/ca/
Handmade matters - https://www.handmadematters.store/

Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 23, 2019, 11:30:20 pm
The worst parts of history don't need to be glorified. And it's not a bad thing that we recognize the meaning that history has for different people, especially when its disastrousconsequences have echoed through generations.

I don't think this is an instance of "the worst parts of history being glorified", which i agree is obviously a bad thing.  Companies aren't designing sneakers with nooses on the back.

The problem is that history involves a long slow march of social/political progress, so at any point in the past things will have been worse in terms of rights for all sorts of groups, like women, LGBT, racial minorities etc.  Women didn't get a vote until 1920, Jim Crow lasted until 1965, gay marriage is only recently legalized in all states by 2015, so the US can be called racist, misogynist, homophobic (and rightfully so) throughout its history, but that doesn't mean Americans or Canadians still can't celebrate history while recognizing that no country at any point, including today, is without flaws.
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Granny on July 31, 2019, 09:50:39 am
I don't think this is an instance of "the worst parts of history being glorified", which i agree is obviously a bad thing.  Companies aren't designing sneakers with nooses on the back.

The problem is that history involves a long slow march of social/political progress, so at any point in the past things will have been worse in terms of rights for all sorts of groups, like women, LGBT, racial minorities etc.  Women didn't get a vote until 1920, Jim Crow lasted until 1965, gay marriage is only recently legalized in all states by 2015, so the US can be called racist, misogynist, homophobic (and rightfully so) throughout its history, but that doesn't mean Americans or Canadians still can't celebrate history while recognizing that no country at any point, including today, is without flaws.

I think it does change the 'celebration' of history when we fully consider the impacts of colonialism, industrialization and capitalism/corporatism on marginalized people who suffered from, rather than benefited from those forces.

The attitude ...  'You can all be equal with us now, and we'll all celebrate that history.' ... is not equality at all, but forced assimilation, demanding a pretense of celebration from those victimized by that history, demanding that they reject their own history and 'become one' with their oppressors.

I think they call that 'Stockholm syndrome'. Lol 
Title: Re: Bestie Ross Nike shoe cancelled because of ties with Slavery
Post by: Boges on August 13, 2019, 11:52:09 am
Bill Maher addressed this last Friday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efbm3JS0J04

The Woke brigade judging people in the past by the hindsight of today's standards is just a convenient way to make them feel superior. It's as silly as making fun of people in the past for thinking Fax Machines were revolutionary.