Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 03:20:18 pm

Title: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 03:20:18 pm
 Background
We have some Transgender anarchists in Hamilton, the Pink Bloc.
Some time ago, some anarchists from somewhere were in town for the Anarchist book fair, did a run through a gentrifying area, broke some windows, frightened some people, ran away.
One local TransAnarchist was later arrested for 'counselling to commit crime x', I believe, did a bit of time, now on probation.

Yellow Vests/white supremacist rallies
Every week now, the racists and homophobes get a permit from the City and rally at City Hall, some local and more out of town hate groups (Sons of Odin, 3%, etc., militant groups) with anti-immigrant signs and some spewing homophobic slurs ... at the TransAnarchists who protest their presence.  A couple of arrests, 1 each side.

Hamilton Pride June 15 2019
Pride is an afternoon, family friendly celebration in a park.
- Police asked Pride if they could put a recruitment booth at Pride Fest. That was denied, and they were also told not to come to Pride Fest in uniform.
- For several years, 'religious' bigots with 12' signs have disrupted and disturbed Pride participants.
- This year the bigots were joined by the white supremacists, who arrived from City Hall along with police.
- This year, TransAnarchists held up a huge black curtain to hide the religious bigots' disgusting signs, so Pride goers could celebrate in peace. 
It worked. Pride Fest went on peacefully, the Pink Bloc and friends held the line for an hour, while being physically attacked, violently assaulted by the racist homophobes and religious bigots. Three women were smashed in the face, a teenager's nose was broken by a white supremacist wielding a helmet. Another was being brutally kicked in the head when he was down, an elder woman threw down her cane and dropped on top of him to protect him from more kicks to the head.

HAMILTON POLICE STOOD BACK WATCHING ASSAULT HATE CRIMES, AND DID NOTHING.
- Approached for help, one police officer said  "Remember, we weren't invited to Pride. We're just standing here. Not my problem."
- Following the event, Pride organizers issued a statement citing "longstanding issues between the 2SLGBTQIA+ community" and police.
"It took far too long for police to respond to the escalating situation created by the protestors," according to the statement.

- The Chief of Police admitted that they stood back and took no action against the violent hate groups because Police weren't invited to Pride:
"Keeping mind the context here. We were not invited to the event," he explained. "We were asked not to be at the event and we remained on the perimeter."
The chief noted the service's request to have a recruitment booth at Pride was denied.
He also said the decision to keep officers to the outer edge of the park was intentional.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/girt-pride-protest-1.5182014

- The Mayor mouthed pathetic support for police standdown "because they weren't invited to Pride". Then he finally shut up due to massive public outcry against the police and him.
- No violent white supremacists have been arrested. Lots of video available, showing clearly that they were the aggressors and Pride folk were defending 'the black wall', defending others being attacked, and defending themselves from attacks.
** The police are now arresting TransAnarchists.
Thud.

- When asked why no racist homophobe aggressors are being arrested, the police complain that no victims have come forward. Who the hell would? Police will just find an excuse to arrest them!
Meanwhile they continue to arrest the TransAnarchists and friends who took the blows and protected Pride Fest from disruption. Except the one arrested who wasn't even there due to probation conditions, but did later attend a meeting at City Hall and called for the Chief's resignation ... then got arrested.

The two most violent racist homophobes creeps, still on the loose, were in Toronto this past weekend, assaulting people in the Eaton's Centre.
Where were the Toronto police?!

--> The Hamilton police inaction was not impartial, a biased police response, a punitive measure due to the Police Chief's hissy fit about not being "invited" to Pride, and clearly also due to the police vendetta against the local TransAnarchists.
It also appeared to be biased by police enjoyment of watching neo-Nazis assault TransAnarchists. Sick.

Some of the (gay and other) officers who finally herded the exhausted white supremacists out of the Park must have been ashamed of their Chief that day ... but they still followed his biased and improper orders.

It's quite disturbing that the Police Chief showed no awareness that he can't withhold service because he wasn't 'invited' to the party.
Those are two entirely different things.
CBC Hamilton did a fine job of reporting, exposing that bias clearly. He fell right in their trap ... because he still doesn't get it.

As someone said ... Does the Fire Dept refuse to put out your fire because you didn't invite them to the birthday party?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 25, 2019, 03:38:27 pm
Shitty. >:(
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 25, 2019, 03:46:40 pm
I don't mean to tar all with the same brush, but I suspect a hefty proportion of people who seek to achieve the authority of being a police officer are inherently unsuited to wield it.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2019, 04:11:32 pm
The police should have done their job in spite of Pride but they were more than not invited, they were told not to attend in uniform.
Pride needs to decide what they want from police.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2019, 04:21:16 pm
I call bullshit on the trans-activists stories of police standing by while assaults occur. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2019, 04:39:55 pm
The police should have done their job in spite of Pride but they were more than not invited, they were told not to attend in uniform.
Pride needs to decide what they want from police.

Exactly.  Pride wouldn't let the police attend, wouldn't let them have a recruitment booth.  So they hate the police, until they need them.

It's a pretty sick way to learn a lesson, but maybe now Pride understands the value police have in the community, even if some police behave improperly.

Pride won't even "allow" the city hall to fly a pride flag.  Now Pride is saying about the police conduct on the weekend "this isn't how to build relationships"  :D

This whole things so, so stupid. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/city-will-fly-pride-and-trans-flags-but-won-t-host-flag-raising-ceremony-1.5156442
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 25, 2019, 05:01:52 pm
So if they are called to an emergency they shouldn't go?

I think that the question is about marching in uniform.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 09:45:14 pm
I don't mean to tar all with the same brush, but I suspect a hefty proportion of people who seek to achieve the authority of being a police officer are inherently unsuited to wield it.

In this case, the Chief is the one who showed his unsuitability.
The Officers had orders.
I'm glad one let the cat out if the bag. Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 10:02:44 pm
The police should have done their job in spite of Pride but they were more than not invited, they were told not to attend in uniform.
Pride needs to decide what they want from police.

They weren't invited to be in the festival area in uniform, no.
Infiltrate and dox people on a pretense of wanting to attend Pride ... in uniform? A pretend 'recruiting booth'? Fuck you. That was the Chief's plan for policing Pride. Fuck the Chief.

Police were expected to be policing the violent bigots, held far enough away not to disturb PrideFest,
behind a huge black curtain that roved as needed and hid their disgusting signs. All good. It was brilliant, and it worked.

But the police didn't work that day.
No excuses. It was blatant. FTP
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 25, 2019, 10:02:57 pm
In this case, the Chief is the one who showed his unsuitability.
The Officers had orders.
I'm glad one let the cat out if the bag. Lol

Doesn't bode well when it comes from the top down.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 10:05:27 pm
I call bullshit on the trans-activists stories of police standing by while assaults occur.
You'd be wrong.
Read my post, what the Chief said.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 10:18:13 pm
Exactly.  Pride wouldn't let the police attend, wouldn't let them have a recruitment booth.  So they hate the police, until they need them.

Are you saying It's appropriate for police to withhold service because they weren't invited to the party?
Good thing there wasn't a fire if emergency services needs an invitation to a party or they won't put out a fire.


Fortunately, I don't think the firefighters are that dumb.

Are all police so dumb that they don't comprehend what "impartial" means?
They're supposed to know that word.

Quote
It's a pretty sick way to learn a lesson, but maybe now Pride understands the value police have in the community, even if some police behave improperly.
All of them behaved improperly, on the Chief's order.


The Police Chief is going down.
He doesn't understand what "impartial" means.
Do you get it?
They don't know their duty.
Too fucking dumb.

Quote
Pride won't even "allow" the city hall to fly a pride flag.  Now Pride is saying about the police conduct on the weekend "this isn't how to build relationships"  :D

This whole things so, so stupid. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/city-will-fly-pride-and-trans-flags-but-won-t-host-flag-raising-ceremony-1.5156442
You're stupid.

Pride refused because police were already having hissy fits about "not being invited" to infiltrate the festivities.

Policing is assumed.

Btw ... the Pride & Trans flags are now gone from City Hall: lol

"The rumours are true and the loot is ours.

Last Thursday (June 20), under the cover of night, a fearless team of Queer Ninjas, using Trans-Batman-grade suction cups and Super Lesbionic Wonder Woman lassoes, scaled the clammy, heaving walls of Hamilton’s City Hall and reclaimed our rightful property. Our highly skilled infiltrators easily pierced the fortress of servanthood, dismantling the two centre flag poles and removing our beloved Pride and Trans flags. The QNs were pursued by Hamilton’s intrepid popo force (who are great at rooting out uppity queers, but apparently not so great at identifying known fag bashers), and narrowly escaped the rooftop using Gay Spiderman steel webbing and Sheer Non-Binary Strength. By dawn Friday, new flags had been installed in a different spot. Those two empty spots in the middle, where Mayor Fred had the nerve to fly our flags without our permission, are a protest of absence. A ghostly reminder of this city’s inaction. Fascists are here, we are queer, and we’re not going away, you are."


They are hilariously awesome! Lolol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 25, 2019, 10:44:16 pm

This isn't about Pride.
This is about the violent hate groups.
Here's the star who broke a 15 year old's nose with a helmet in Hamilton, last week, then went to Toronto this week and attacked people there.
Lots of video, no arrests of the perpetrators of the violence.

While the helmet-wielding maniac who smashed our faces continued his crusade in Toronto, posing for celebrity pictures with a new helmet and brutally attacking at least one more person (you can watch the video here: http://anti-racistcanada.blogspot.com/2019/06/violence-after-pegida-march-northern.html), the police were busy banging on the doors of known queer anarchists in Hamilton, lurking in backyards, and shaking down our entire community.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2019, 10:44:58 pm
Are you saying It's appropriate for police to withhold service because they weren't invited to the party?

No.  The police should have done their job regardless.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: kimmy on June 25, 2019, 11:29:35 pm
The trans-anarchists are thugs too.  They're probably just mad that the yellow vest people kept them from their usual business like harrassing elderly lesbians or beating up "TERFs". 

If one group of thugs wants to fight with another group of thugs, I don't see why the police need to be involved.

(https://i.imgur.com/vPK8Ysh.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2019, 11:58:24 pm
Is civility a thing anymore?  Based on the behaviour of most posters on here, apparently not.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 26, 2019, 12:14:00 am
While I agree with posters that the police should have done their job, however, the sanctimonious garbage from the posters criticizing the police is ridiculous because pride zealots got what they asked for which is a police free event. Classic example of "reaping what you sow".
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2019, 12:21:37 am
LGBTQ2SIA+?  WTF?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 01:09:39 am
No.  The police should have done their job regardless.

Homophobic thugs fighting to tear down the black curtain protecting Pride Fest from hate signs and bigots. (And it did.)
I just saw on the news again the thug from Kitchener smashing two people in the head/face with a helmet.
Police have his name and several others ... 
<crickets>
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 26, 2019, 05:39:07 am
The trans-anarchists are thugs too.  They're probably just mad that the yellow vest people kept them from their usual business like harrassing elderly lesbians or beating up "TERFs".   

You're making a jump in logic here.

"What if the trans activists were..."

Well, we don't know that.  We know the statements of the police representative quoted above, and that amounts to "we don't do our jobs if we're in a huff, sorry".  Should be fired, no other option.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 26, 2019, 05:41:00 am
... pride zealots got what they asked for which is a police free event. Classic example of "reaping what you sow".

This is absolutely wrong, to my understanding:

There are 3 ways police appear at pride:

1) Off-hours out of uniform on their own time
2) On-hours, paid to keep the peace and do their jobs
3) Marching in the parade as ambassadors of police goodwill

My understanding is that 3) is the only presence that was rejected by organizers in various jurisdictions.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 26, 2019, 07:10:24 am
3) Marching in the parade as ambassadors of police goodwill
But people who spit in the face of a police offering goodwill gestures have no business expecting police protection. They should get it anyways because the police have a job to do but I make no apologies for enjoying it when I see self absorbed jerks getting what they ask for.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 26, 2019, 08:14:42 am
First of all they shouldn't expect it... But they should get it ?  Huh?

Secondly, the police March issue is symbolic and I would also say splits the LGBTQ+ community.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2019, 10:26:43 am
On the other hand.

Quote
Nuamah said Pride was "incredibly well looked after" by the Toronto Police Service during the weekend's festivities, which is why incidents did not spill into Pride events.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 26, 2019, 10:56:20 am
LGBTQ2SIA+?  WTF?

Actually now in Canada it's 2SLGBTQQIA+.  "2S" is "two-spirited" for natives, and natives are at the top of the victim hierarchy in Canada so they get to be 1st in the acronym.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2019, 11:48:27 am
Actually now in Canada it's 2SLGBTQQIA+.  "2S" is "two-spirited" for natives, and natives are at the top of the victim hierarchy in Canada so they get to be 1st in the acronym.

Acronym wars.
Frankly Scarlet, do you think anyone outside their world gives a crap about knowing what they are supposed to mean.

It would make a pretty secure password.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 06:52:26 pm
This is absolutely wrong, to my understanding:

There are 3 ways police appear at pride:

1) Off-hours out of uniform on their own time
2) On-hours, paid to keep the peace and do their jobs
3) Marching in the parade as ambassadors of police goodwill

My understanding is that 3) is the only presence that was rejected by organizers in various jurisdictions.

True, though not a parade here.

The issue was deployment of uniformed officers IN the designated festival area ('Permit area') of the park, which was not welcome, nor was a recruiting booth.

It's much smaller scale than Toronto, the 'permit area' a relatively small area with a stage, in a bigger park.
Organizers knew, and police did too - from recent years but certainly as of a Thursday meeting before the Saturday festival - that the area where police presence would be necessary would be where the religious bigots located themselves, somewhere on the fringes of the festival area.
Police were not there. Initially, there were just a few cruisers with officers all the way across the park, on the outer perimeter. Then more bigots, yellow vesters and hard line hate groups arrived from their rally at city hall, and along with them more police officers who then also just stayed by their cruisers far across the park.

The reverberations are still settling.

The violent haters are still not arrested.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 07:07:09 pm
While I agree with posters that the police should have done their job
I guess that's almost unanimous , then.
,
Quote
however, the sanctimonious garbage from the posters criticizing the police is ridiculous because pride zealots
Pride zealots?
That's an ignorant thing to say.
Quote
got what they asked for which is a police free event. Classic example of "reaping what you sow".
Not.
(See my post to Michael, that explains the arrangement of the park/festival/police.)

The cops talked that way too, repeating the Chief's dumbass childish hissy fit captured by CBC 'If we can't infiltrate your party, we're going to let the white supremacists beat the trannyanarchist people up. Na-na-na-na-na'

And that's exactly what police did.

Maybe they even suggested that the hate groups come to Gage Park from City Hall to beat up the trannies. Who knows!
It was a shameful display by police.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 07:18:12 pm
But people who spit in the face of a police offering goodwill gestures have no business expecting police protection. They should get it anyways because the police have a job to do but I make no apologies for enjoying it when I see self absorbed jerks getting what they ask for.
And ... police didn't do their job.

The rest is just bullying and hissy fits: Really not becoming to you, police officers, and certainly not to the Chief.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 07:20:33 pm
Is civility a thing anymore?  Based on the behaviour of most posters on here, apparently not.

I stand by my uncivil behaviour towards those who immediately begin whitewashing police and blaming Pride,  without knowing facts. It was meant to shake you up. Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 08:22:09 pm
On the other hand.
Quote
Nuamah said Pride was "incredibly well looked after" by the Toronto Police Service during the weekend's festivities, which is why incidents did not spill into Pride events.

In Hamilton, that would read
Quote
Despite absense of Police, Pride was incredibly well looked after by the Pink Bloc anarchists, which is why hate group incidents did not spill into Pride events.

It's true. The Pink Bloc & friends, under physical attack,  kept the violent haters behind the big black curtain, away from the festival area, and Pride Fest itself was not affected, "the best ever".

If I was the parent of the 15 year old with the broken nose, smashed in the face by a helmet-wielding hater creep from Kitchener, I'd be filing lawsuit against Hamilton Police, for sure. Did the Police Chief never consider that possibility when withholding necessary emergency services from Pride?!! The stupidity is phenomenal! Does he ... think nobody cares about Pride folk? FUCKING fuck fuck bigot fucker.

UPDATE:
Helmet-smash-face guy has finally been arrested!
That's the first decent thing police have done.

Hamilton & Toronto reports & video:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/pride-arrest-1.5191201
Police charge 'helmet guy' with assault over violence at Hamilton Pride
Christopher Vanderweide has been charged with assault with a weapon

Police have arrested a fourth person in relation to the violence at Hamilton Pride — this time an anti-Pride protester known on social media as "helmet guy."

Police say Christopher Vanderweide, 27, of Kitchener has been charged with two counts of assault with a weapon after the June 15 altercation. His bail has been opposed.

----------

Assault with a weapon or causing bodily harm
267 Every one who, in committing an assault,
(a) carries, uses or threatens to use a weapon or an imitation thereof, or
(b) causes bodily harm to the complainant,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding eighteen months.

----------
And the Mayor finally says something sensible ...

We are going to do better,' says mayor over hate incidents and friction with LGBTQ community
Fred Eisenberger says he's arranging a meeting and recognizes the city needs to change

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:02:34 pm
Actually now in Canada it's 2SLGBTQQIA+.  "2S" is "two-spirited" for natives, and natives are at the top of the victim hierarchy in Canada so they get to be 1st in the acronym.

Two spirited is not just for Natives.  I'm two spirited.  On the one hand, I'm a Bradford City fan, but in the Premier League, I support Liverpool.

If Bradford City ever get back to the Premier League...?  I guess that's where the + comes in.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 09:27:36 pm
Two spirited is not just for Natives.  I'm two spirited.  On the one hand, I'm a Bradford City fan, but in the Premier League, I support Liverpool.

If Bradford City ever get back to the Premier League...?  I guess that's where the + comes in.
Gee, the DUMB rating wasn't good enough, and there wasn't a SCUM rating, so there it is.
 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:30:06 pm
Gee, the DUMB rating wasn't good enough, and there wasn't a SCUM rating, so there it is.

Aw, Bless!


It had been so long since I  traded dumbs, I was missing it.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 09:34:13 pm
Aw, Bless!


It had been so long since I got a traded dumbs, I was missing it.

I guess shit happens when you respond to serious issues with silly joke attempts.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:37:43 pm
I guess shit happens when you respond to serious issues with silly joke attempts.

What shit?

Did I miss something?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 09:40:42 pm
What shit?

Did I miss something?

Evidently.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:43:29 pm
Evidently.

I guess it's all down to definitions. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 09:49:00 pm
I guess it's all down to definitions.

DUMB or SCUM, take your pick.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:50:52 pm
DUMB or SCUM, take your pick.

Either way, it's a good way of showing a lack of wit.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 09:55:36 pm
Either way, it's a good way of showing a lack of wit.

Don't fret, lack of wit is welcome over at mlw. You'll be fine.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: bcsapper on June 26, 2019, 09:58:39 pm
Don't fret, lack of wit is welcome over at mlw. You'll be fine.

Ah, the misdirection.

If I was another poster I'd accept your surrender, but as that's not my phrase, I'll just give you the last word and take another couple of weeks off.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 10:02:38 pm
Ah, the misdirection.

If I was another poster I'd accept your surrender, but as that's not my phrase, I'll just give you the last word and take another couple of weeks off.

B,Bye. And I advise not to adopt Dope's little phrase. It doesn't work.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 10:11:56 pm
What shit?

Did I miss something?

I dunno.
Did you read anything?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 26, 2019, 10:16:03 pm
I dunno.
Did you read anything?

Read it, but didn't get it would be my conclusion.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 10:42:29 pm
He does need a holiday.  Lol

One perp in custody.
The guy kicking people in the head when they're down ... he's Toronto's problem.
Preacher ... Servanthood group something?
Boots.

And this:

Day of Action – Drop All Charges Against Pride Defenders!
Posted onJune 25, 2019Authornorthshore1 Comment

From The Tower fb page.

DROP ALL CHARGES AGAINST PRIDE DEFENDERS – FREE CEDAR NOW!

We are calling for a day of autonomous action in support of those who are facing repression for defending themselves and others from far-right violence at Hamilton Pride.
This Friday, June 28th we are asking for people far and wide to show their support and solidarity by taking action where they live. Actions could include things like: banner drops, postering, rallies, or any number of other more creative endeavors ;)

If possible, it would be great if you could share it with us by sending a photo and/or a brief description to thetower@riseup.net. You could also post things yourself on north-shore.info and send us the link.
Please share widely!


Cedar Hopperton and two others arrested are on probation conditions, from the Locke St March
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9057925-hopperton-gets-jail-time-for-locke-street-vandalism/

Conditions include attending only peaceful protests.
Cedar was not at Gage Park Pride Fest, was later at a City Hall public meeting and called for the resignation of the Chief of Police, then handed out flyers after, where they were arrested by police on probation violation. Not.
But still in jail.
Two others turned themselves in for probation violation. (for company?)
All political.

Now the police finally caught a real criminal.
Christopher Vanderweide, Kitchener.
https://twitter.com/VestsCanada/status/1140272182293127173

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 27, 2019, 12:39:30 am
And ... police didn't do their job.

The rest is just bullying and hissy fits: Really not becoming to you, police officers, and certainly not to the Chief.

You're right, the police didn't do their job. They should be blamed, maybe even sued, and people suspended, even if the chief if need be.

This whole banning police from Pride thing needs to stop, it's been very unconstructive & divisive, it's made relations between LGBT and police far worse, and hasn't made anyone any safer.  I've never heard of incidents between police and LGBT or black LGBT at Pride events before all this controversy started.  It was a big party before all this nonsense happened.  I'm not going to blame what happened in Hamilton on Pride, because it is the police's fault for not doing their job, but maybe we can all realize that cops do bad things sometimes but are also a much-needed service, and it's better to build bridges than tear them down.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 27, 2019, 12:52:03 am
I stand by my uncivil behaviour towards those who immediately begin whitewashing police and blaming Pride,  without knowing facts. It was meant to shake you up. Lol

Should we speak to each other like Trump does or like Obama does?  Should we behave like children when we're angry or like adults?  Should we have vile resentment & even hatred for those we disagree with, or treat them like human beings who deserve respect despite our differences?

How we decide to behave is what we'll end up teaching our children/grandchildren, and that's how they'll behave, & probably worse. We already have a generation of millennials where many are incapable of adults disagreements in academia, which supposed to be the HQ of adult conversations.  The breakdown in civility has led us to the state our society now finds itself in.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 27, 2019, 01:10:06 pm
People don't put up with bullying, harassment and abuse anymore.

Says the hypocrite harassing me with verbal abuse:

Quote
You've got some fucking nerve, you sanctimonious, smug, patronizing, boneheaded arsehole.
Quote
If that's all you've got, likely best to just STFU.
Quote
Who are you to tell Pride what they have to do, who they can invite? That's a big fuck you. You really are 'tone deaf'.
Quote
That's another fuck you.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2019, 01:12:08 pm
People don't put up with bullying, harassment and abuse anymore.

You've got some fucking nerve, you sanctimonious, smug, patronizing, boneheaded arsehole.

You're not helping police 'image'. 
If that's all you've got, likely best to just STFU.

You just made PG's point for him.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 27, 2019, 01:27:12 pm
People don't put up with bullying, harassment and abuse anymore.

You've got some fucking nerve, you sanctimonious, smug, patronizing, boneheaded arsehole.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 01:48:28 pm
Pride people were injured.
Police watched.

Police appear to be in support of the violent hate groups.

Previously, a young Muslim man died while being dismissed and denigrated by police and paramedics.

Those are very serious problems.

And you smug patronizing boneheaded arsehole apologists for prejudiced, retaliatory and punitive policing think it's more important to lecture me about my language?

Well ...
Lol

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 27, 2019, 02:10:07 pm
This whole banning police from Pride thing needs to stop, it's been very unconstructive & divisive, it's made relations between LGBT and police far worse, and hasn't made anyone any safer.

That would be ignoring the long history of Pride in the first place. It was a protest movement against the police harassing the gay community. Should Confederate soldiers march in uniform at MLK day events?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 27, 2019, 02:28:04 pm
That would be ignoring the long history of Pride in the first place. It was a protest movement against the police harassing the gay community.

Yes that happened.  There's also some questions about police investigating the Bruce McArthur killings.

I assume it's also gay cops marching/dancing in the parade.  The question i'm asking is if the Pride ban is productive or counterproductive.  Whether they march or are banned, it's a largely symbolic gesture, it's not changing much on the ground, other than breeding more resentment.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2019, 02:46:17 pm
That would be ignoring the long history of Pride in the first place. It was a protest movement against the police harassing the gay community. Should Confederate soldiers march in uniform at MLK day events?

So when does it end? Your analogy is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 27, 2019, 02:58:11 pm
So when does it end? Your analogy is ridiculous.

Well, after the horrible showing of police in Hamilton recently it looks like it will be at least another 50 years.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 03:05:19 pm
Yes that happened.  There's also some questions about police investigating the Bruce McArthur killings.

I assume it's also gay cops marching/dancing in the parade.  The question i'm asking is if the Pride ban is productive or counterproductive.  Whether they march or are banned, it's a largely symbolic gesture, it's not changing much on the ground, other than breeding more resentment.

Btw ... I'm not involved with Pride, wasn't there, don't have any input. I'm just an ally.
I went one year to try to help hide the Christian bigots' hateful sign. We couldn't. It was sickening seeing teens, families have to walk by those disgusting signs, having to see, hear and feel that hatred on their day of celebration.

Until now, I was pretty sure that police could put aside their personal "resentment" at not getting paid to attend a festival, and still do their jobs in a professional manner.
Shocking.
Very disturbing.
No, police can't be trusted to do their jobs impartially.

But the Pride community has always known that.

What is behind police motives that they won't just accept that they aren't invited? What other public employees are paid to participate in Pride Fest?
I just don't get that.

And the persistent bullying and pressure now seems quite sinister to me.

Harassment doesn't generally get you an invitation anywhere. Lol
And it does seem to be all about harassing the Pride community, certainly not protecting them, and it definitely isn't building good relations.

Police who choose to can attend Pride on their own time on their own dime, like anybody else.

If they're working, then they can police it in a professional, impartial manner.

Is that not the way it should be?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 27, 2019, 03:06:53 pm
Well, after the horrible showing of police in Hamilton recently it looks like it will be at least another 50 years.
So you are against all of the SJWs that use aggressive protesting as a means to shut down speakers who they disagree with? Or is this just another example of your double standards?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2019, 03:24:49 pm
Well, after the horrible showing of police in Hamilton recently it looks like it will be at least another 50 years.

Hamilton has issues but don't paint everyone with the same brush on either side. Our police force has been welcome at Fraser Valley Pride.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 05:05:47 pm
So you are against all of the SJWs that use aggressive protesting as a means to shut down speakers who they disagree with? Or is this just another example of your double standards?

We all have freedom of speech.
We are free to speak back.
Free seech doesn't guarantee you an audience.
No 'audience' ever goes to hear hate groups.
People only go to oppose them, to drown them out.
They're just not very popular.
Nobody ever promised them an adoring audience.
People get booed off stages all the time.

This is not about that. Start another thread on 'free speech for white supremacists' ... or not ... but don't try to derail this one.

This thread is about blatant and violent hate crimes,  and biased policing.

This is about assaults, hate crimes, and police failure to intervene to prevent those hate crimes.
This is about not about speech, but assaults ... while police watched and intentionally failed to police ... on the Chief's orders, for biased and punitive reasons, openly stated.

This is about hate crimes and criminals, Christopher Vanderweide  Kitchener (2 counts, assault with a weapon).
John Mark Morelli, Toronto, kicks to the head, still not arrested.

Who polices the police, when they appear to be aiding and abetting hate crimes?

We do. The public does.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 06:48:29 pm
Hamilton has issues but don't paint everyone with the same brush on either side. Our police force has been welcome at Fraser Valley Pride.
It's a local choice.

Toronto, not.
But police still did their job.

Hamilton Police did not, on orders.
I'm going to call that one issue.
'Whoever' it was has to wear it, hasn't yet.

I am shocked because that's not the norm.
(Some may differ on that.)

I don't think all officers felt gleeful about it.
Sometimes yelling at the brass is supporting the Officers. 😊
HPS aren't perfect, but they've been better than that.

Sometimes we have to yell at them, but in this case, just 'him'.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 27, 2019, 07:03:51 pm
No 'audience' ever goes to hear hate groups.
People only go to oppose them, to drown them out.
IOW, you are completely in favor of the tactics that these "white supremacist" groups used to "drown out" speech which they opposed (in this case the pride event).

Of course, you lack the self awareness needed to realize that is what you are saying...


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 07:46:27 pm
IOW, you are completely in favor of the tactics that these "white supremacist" groups used to "drown out" speech which they opposed (in this case the pride event).
They can't drown us out. Lol
Never happens.

They were kept far enough away from Pride Fest, by Pink Bloc and friends holding them behind a big black curtain, so kids, parents and all Pride folk could celebrate in peace.
Out of hearing range of their megaphone spewing hate and Christian bigotry.
They were not allowed to disrupt Pride Fest itself. And they didn't. It went on, went well, great day.

The bigots tried to get around/tear down the curtain, attacking people holding it. it was defended, Pink Bloc and friends defended themselves and each other and held them behind the curtain, away from Pride Fest ... for ~40 minutes.
While police, from quite a distance and on the Chief's orders, watched the bigots assaulting Pink Bloc & friends.
Stood down and watched assault hate crimes.
Aided and abetted by the Police Chief's hissy fit.

So, ya  the violent Christian hate creeps can try to shut Pride Fest 'free speech' down ...
but they can't do it. Lol


They're just stupid twisted violent hater creep criminals, who call themselves Christians.
Anybody here want to claim them as such? Lol
There are no "fine people" among the hate groups.

There's way more decent people out there facing them down, drowning them out, whatever it takes, holding curtains to protect kids, families, communities, etc. from hatred.

Always.
Way more decent people.
We are loud too.

NO HATE IN PUBLIC SPACES.

Until Police and the Attorney General do their jobs, collect evidence, and arrest hate groups for 'Public incitement of hatred against protected groups'
Section 319
Until Police lay charges of hate crimes for assaults ...

We'll just keep drowning them out, pushing them back so their hate is not heard.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 27, 2019, 08:16:44 pm
We'll just keep drowning them out, pushing them back so their hate is not heard.
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 08:27:28 pm
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.
Wow. Twisted.

I'm one of the people who won't allow criminals  to incite hatred against people ... just because of who they are.

I can't say I'm surprised that you don't oppose hate groups in your town, TimG. Lol
Oh, and squid agrees with you too.
Doesn't surprise me either.

If you don't oppose hate groups harassing people in your towns, just because of who they are (gender ID, religion, race, etc.) ...
How Canadian can you be?
Really?

Hate groups are all about pushing their right to 'free speech' to the limits, to hatred.

Nobody HAS TO listen to that in a public space.

Your town may differ. Lol 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 28, 2019, 07:24:02 am
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.

How do you propose that we respond to fascists ? 

Trenchant op-ed pieces won't do it.  Outright offensive violence isn't the answer either, IMO, but neither is reason.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 07:55:11 am
How do you propose that we respond to fascists ? 
Trenchant op-ed pieces won't do it.  Outright offensive violence isn't the answer either, IMO, but neither is reason.
First, I don't put inconsiderate jerks into different categories depending on their political leanings. Left wing fascists/hatemongers are just as much a concern as right wing fascists/hatemongers. Each plays tweedle dum to the other's tweedle dee.

Second, we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights. Same rules apply when left wing groups are upset that some right wing group has an event or a speaker.

The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: cybercoma on June 28, 2019, 08:08:50 am
It seems like a lot of you are really unfamiliar with the history of Pride. If you don't know what the Stonewall Inn is, then you should probably read about it and the origins of Pride.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/733500331/why-we-remember-stonewall

This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate. And if you're arguing that it's a gesture of good will, they've yet to earn that right. If you think these aren't Canadian problems, then I suggest reading about Fruit Machine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 08:26:36 am
This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate.
Whatever happened in the past is not an excuse for small minded bigotry today. More importantly, you don't build bridges and achieve reconciliation for a past wrongs by demonizing people doing the job today that had nothing to do with past wrongs.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 28, 2019, 09:03:38 am
First, I don't put inconsiderate jerks into different categories depending on their political leanings. Left wing fascists/hatemongers are just as much a concern as right wing fascists/hatemongers. Each plays tweedle dum to the other's tweedle dee.

The tactics of violence and intimidation have a tradition with these alt-right types and that's what I'm asking about.

You don't need to 'oppose' Antifa as they themselves are a reaction to the original problem.

Quote
Second, we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights. Same rules apply when left wing groups are upset that some right wing group has an event or a speaker.

The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.

Ok.  So if there's a women's march then the pro-life people can't attend ?  And a 'The Jews Are Evil' march should happen with police protection so they are not disrupted ?  I'm ok with saying that far-left and far-right both present problems but they are assymmetric and you can't create an objective criteria to respond right now.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 09:19:24 am
The tactics of violence and intimidation have a tradition with these alt-right types and that's what I'm asking about.
Lots of left wing groups use violence and intimidation. There is no "tradition" that is exclusive to alt-right types.

Ok.  So if there's a women's march then the pro-life people can't attend ?  And a 'The Jews Are Evil' march should happen with police protection so they are not disrupted ?
That is what free speech means. Exceptions apply to incitement for violence (ironically, the 'jews are evil' march is most likely going to come from left wing pro-Palestinian groups today).

I used to be more sympathetic to notion that hateful speech that does not incite violence should be limited, however, it has become clear that any such limits will be used by people to censor legitimate political speech because too many people take that the attitude that people who they do not agree with are "evil" and any opinions they have are "hate speech" by definition.

  I'm ok with saying that far-left and far-right both present problems but they are assymmetric and you can't create an objective criteria to respond right now.
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech. There is no asymmetry in the substance of the speech or the tactics used by the speakers.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 09:54:46 am

... we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights.

That's what was done in Hamilton. The Christian bigots spewing amplified hatred and holding hate signs at Pride Fest were moved to a distance, behind a large curtain, to protect Pride Fest from disruption by their hatred. But it was Pride folk who had to move them, and they were violently attacked by the hate groups.

Police stood by watching assault hate crimes, and did nothing.

Quote
The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.
Nice theory.
Not reality.

Hate groups do not have equal 'free speech' rights under the law.
'Public incitement of hatred' against Pride Folk is a crime in Canada.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 10:01:51 am
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech.

Examples of "left wing hate speech" in Canada, please?

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: kimmy on June 28, 2019, 10:05:26 am
It seems like a lot of you are really unfamiliar with the history of Pride. If you don't know what the Stonewall Inn is, then you should probably read about it and the origins of Pride.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/733500331/why-we-remember-stonewall

This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate. And if you're arguing that it's a gesture of good will, they've yet to earn that right. If you think these aren't Canadian problems, then I suggest reading about Fruit Machine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)



And some (myself included) have argued that the history of police and the gay community (in Canada, the bath house raids of the early 1980s being the genesis of the pride movement) is a reason why the police *should* participate. In wake of the handling of the Bruce MacArthur investigation,  there may be a strong argument that they really haven't earned the trust of the gay community.

But Pride events aren't banning police participation because of historical reasons. They're doing it because of demands from anti-racism activists in regard to current issues. So the history of the police and the gay community is kind of beside the point of the current debate.

 -k
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: kimmy on June 28, 2019, 10:18:24 am
If the topic is violence as a means of silencing others, then the right or alt-right certainly doesn't have a monopoly.  I think we've all seen the clip of Richard Spencer being punched in the head, and the dude in the Nazi arm-band getting KO'ed by some guy, and probably many similar incidents over recent years.

And it's hard to feel sorry for a guy like Richard Spencer or a dude in a Nazi armband getting punched. It kind of feels good to see it happen, doesn't it?

But the point is: some progressives are willing to use violence too.  Progressives by and large don't object to violence as long as they think the target of the violence deserves it.    And if the targets are people like Richard Spencer, or James Field and his tubby little alt-right friends at Charlottesville, then maybe they do deserve it.

But not everybody has the same idea of who deserves it.  It's not just Nazis who get punched.  Some progressive people thought student journalists covering the Mizzou protests a few years ago deserved to have force used on them too. Some progressive people think that TERFs deserve to get beat up.   If everybody gets to decide who deserves to get beat up, then everybody's going to get beat up by somebody someday.


 -k
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 10:26:30 am
And some (myself included) have argued that the history of police and the gay community (in Canada, the bath house raids of the early 1980s being the genesis of the pride movement) is a reason why the police *should* participate. In wake of the handling of the Bruce MacArthur investigation,  there may be a strong argument that they really haven't earned the trust of the gay community.

But Pride events aren't banning police participation because of historical reasons. They're doing it because of demands from anti-racism activists in regard to current issues. So the history of the police and the gay community is kind of beside the point of the current debate.

 -k

In Toronto, perhaps.

In Hamilton, on duty police were not invited to attend Pride Fest in uniform because their presence was not welcome, for historical and present reasons of bigotry and harassment.

They were expected to provide policing services, but they refused.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 28, 2019, 10:29:04 am
Examples of "left wing hate speech" in Canada, please?

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/04/05/black-lives-matter-co-founder-tweets-about-killing-men-and-white-folks/
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 10:43:14 am
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2016/04/05/black-lives-matter-co-founder-tweets-about-killing-men-and-white-folks/

"Khogali asks Allah for strength “to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today"

Ya very scary. Lol

More examples, please.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 28, 2019, 10:55:27 am
More examples, please.

From same BLM Toronto co-founder who helped stop the Pride parade a couple of years ago:

https://torontosun.com/2017/02/11/black-lives-matter-co-founder-appears-to-label-white-people-defects/wcm/2748a714-f567-4344-8c08-decfe73d1e52

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4rnc4j/taken_from_one_of_the_heads_of_blm_toronto/
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 28, 2019, 11:04:21 am
"Khogali asks Allah for strength “to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today"

Ya very scary. Lol

If someone said "god give me the strength to not cuss/kill these women and black folks out here today"

or “give me the strength to not cuss/kill these LGBT folks out here today" would you have the same dismissive reaction?

Quote
TimG:
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech.

Point proven.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 11:11:17 am
From same BLM Toronto co-founder who helped stop the Pride parade a couple of years ago:

https://torontosun.com/2017/02/11/black-lives-matter-co-founder-appears-to-label-white-people-defects/wcm/2748a714-f567-4344-8c08-decfe73d1e52

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4rnc4j/taken_from_one_of_the_heads_of_blm_toronto/

Inappropriate.
I'd certainly step away from her at a protest. Lol
But an isolated case.

Not on the scale of the alt-right hate groups, whose sole purpose is to incite hatred against racial, religious and gender minorities.
 
I'm waiting for TimG to post his examples.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 11:26:50 am
If someone said "god give me the strength to not cuss/kill these women and black folks out here today"

or “give me the strength to not cuss/kill these LGBT folks out here today" would you have the same dismissive reaction?

I'm not interested in hypotheticals.
Real examples please.

Unfortunately, people say 'I'll kill you!' all the time, with only figurative meaning.


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 28, 2019, 12:45:36 pm
Same rules apply when left wing groups are upset that some right wing group has an event or a speaker.

I have yet to hear about a left wing group protest a valid right wing group, the only groups they protest are the NAZI fascists.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 01:09:01 pm
I have yet to hear about a left wing group protest a valid right wing group, the only groups they protest are the NAZI fascists.
Impact's circular logic:
1) Define everyone who disagrees with progressive ideology as "nazis".
2) Declare that progressives only protest "nazis".

The overuse of the word "nazi" us a perfect example of progressive hate speech because you are using words to demonize people who you do not like.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 28, 2019, 01:14:36 pm
1) Define everyone who disagrees with progressive ideology as "nazis".

Where did I define everyone who disagrees with progressive ideology (whever the frig that means) as a NAZI? I disagree with a lot of people, Chris Christie is a perfect example. I would never however label him as a NAZI.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 01:18:36 pm
Not on the scale of the alt-right hate groups, whose sole purpose is to incite hatred against racial, religious and gender minorities.
What I can't figure out is if you really lack the self aware to recognize the self service nonsense that you just served up or if you are aware but believe it serves a rhetorical purpose.

A little hint: alt-right groups, for the most part, adopt rhetoric which is the mirror image of various left wing identity groups. If you really want to argue that their sole purpose is to "incite hatred" against others then the same is true of any other identity based group that demand special treatment for their group (aboriginals looking to establish an apartheid state in Canada are an good example).

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 01:28:26 pm
What I can't figure out is if you really lack the self aware to recognize the self service nonsense that you just served up or if you are aware but believe it serves a rhetorical purpose.

A little hint: alt-right groups, for the most part, adopt rhetoric which is the mirror image of various left wing identity groups. If you really want to argue that their sole purpose is to "incite hatred" against others then the same is true of any other identity based group that demand special treatment for their group (aboriginals looking to establish an apartheid state in Canada are an good example).

You're coming off sounding like Trumps " Oh yeah there were good people of both sides" nonsense.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 01:29:45 pm
Where did I define everyone who disagrees with progressive ideology (whever the frig that means) as a NAZI? I disagree with a lot of people, Chris Christie is a perfect example. I would never however label him as a NAZI.
Probably because is viewed as a progressive by many:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/gov-christie-oks-law-give-schools-transgender-policy-guidance-n785961

Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson have both been targeted by progressive protests claiming that are "nazis". The accusation is ridiculous but all too common.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 28, 2019, 01:39:51 pm
Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson have both been targeted by progressive protests claiming that are "nazis". The accusation is ridiculous but all too common.

I wouldn't call Shapiro a NAZI. Asshole is a much better description. King of ad hominem, birther, conspiracy theorist, and racist. The only reason he doesn't get the NAZI label is his Jewish heritage, but in many other respects he fits the bill.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 01:50:27 pm
Probably because is viewed as a progressive by many:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/gov-christie-oks-law-give-schools-transgender-policy-guidance-n785961

Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson have both been targeted by progressive protests claiming that are "nazis". The accusation is ridiculous but all too common.

I suspect you are referring to one google employee, so yes you fulfill your own description of accusation.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 28, 2019, 01:58:20 pm
I suspect you are referring to one google employee

Err, umm, as reported by Project Shititas.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 02:09:22 pm
A little hint: alt-right groups, for the most part, adopt rhetoric which is the mirror image of various left wing identity groups.
Really?  Is that what you teach them?
They are twisted little parrots. Lol
Quote
If you really want to argue that their sole purpose is to "incite hatred" against others then the same is true of any other identity based group that demand special treatment for their group
Unh, no TimG.
False logic is not your friend.  Lol
Alt-right creeps spewing racial and homophobic hatred, threatening and increasingly preparing and engaging in violence, are just loser hater creeps trying to hurt people. They aren't advancing themselves or their 'group' in any way ... except advancing to jail, perhaps. Lol They don't even pretend to have any other goals, except expressing hatred toward 'others'.

And you are still madly scrambling to avoid my question about this:
Quote
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech.
I'm still waiting for your real world examples of left-wing hate speech.

You got anything?
Anything at all?  Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on June 28, 2019, 02:22:42 pm
I wouldn't call Shapiro a NAZI. Asshole is a much better description. King of ad hominem, birther, conspiracy theorist, and racist. The only reason he doesn't get the NAZI label is his Jewish heritage, but in many other respects he fits the bill.

Shapiro fits the Nazi bill?   That’s asinine.  Please tell us how he is comparable to a Nazi. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 02:28:21 pm
The only reason he doesn't get the NAZI label is his Jewish heritage, but in many other respects he fits the bill.
You pretty much prove my point with this statement. You don't know and don't care that Shapiro makes knowledgeable and reasonable arguments of many topics. All you know is he says things you don't like so you make precious statements like "he would be a nazi if he was not jewish" and try to claim that this means you don't call him a nazi. Give me a break.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 02:32:07 pm
You are madly scrambling to avoid my question about this: I'm still waiting for your real world examples of left-wing hate speech.
You got a perfect example but you rejected it so I am not going to play this game with you because there are lots of people who do understand that the left wing identity politics wankers are the mirror image of alt-right identity politics wankers. Society would be better off without both groups.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 02:49:13 pm
You got a perfect example but you rejected it so I am not going to play this game with you because there are lots of people who do understand that the left wing identity politics wankers are the mirror image of alt-right identity politics wankers. Society would be better off without both groups.
What did I miss?
I didn't see any quote of "left wing hate speech".
I'm looking for real examples, comparable to, e.g., .. the "Preacher" John Mark Moretti chasing two gay teens down the street and yelling "There's the sodomites!"
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 02:59:03 pm
You got a perfect example but you rejected it so I am not going to play this game with you because there are lots of people who do understand that the left wing identity politics wankers are the mirror image of alt-right identity politics wankers. Society would be better off without both groups.

Still trying to flog the "fine people on both sides" Trumpism I see. Well at least this "fine person" from, guess which side, got what he deserves.

James A. Fields Jr., the man who drove into a crowd of counterprotesters in Charlottesville's "Unite the Right" rally two years ago, leaving one woman dead, was sentenced Friday to life in prison in his federal hate crimes case.
Fields pleaded guilty to 29 federal hate crimes in March as part of an agreement that eliminated the death penalty as a possible punishment. Under the punishment imposed by US Judge Michael F. Urbanski, Fields will serve his sentence without the possibility of parole.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/28/us/charlottesville-car-attacker-sentencing/index.html 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 03:00:09 pm
I didn't see any quote of "left wing hate speech".
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4rnc4j/taken_from_one_of_the_heads_of_blm_toronto/

Hate speech is hate speech - unless your Granny. Then hate speech is only hate speech if she disagrees with it.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 03:06:31 pm
Still trying to flog the "fine people on both sides" Trumpism I see. Well at least this "fine person" from, guess which side, got what he deserves.
Let's see. I said:

Quote
The left wing identity politics wankers are the mirror image of alt-right identity politics wankers. Society would be better off without both groups.
Last time I checked "wanker" is not a synonym for "fine people". The opposite actually. You seem to keep trying to out do yourself with with absurd and irrelevant comments.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 03:17:23 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4rnc4j/taken_from_one_of_the_heads_of_blm_toronto/

Hate speech is hate speech - unless your Granny. Then hate speech is only hate speech if she disagrees with it.

You rely on Reddit for guidance? It shows.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 03:32:02 pm
Let's see. I said:
Last time I checked "wanker" is not a synonym for "fine people". The opposite actually. You seem to keep trying to out do yourself with with absurd and irrelevant comments.

Except when it comes down to actual issues/events you seem to have no luck in producing any meaningful evidence that far left and far right are equally "wankers" (not sure what your term is meant to mean) I refer to Charlottesvile because it certainly demonstrated a significant difference between the two groups in terms of violent intent, actions, but it is far from the only incident to demonstrate the differences.

PS-I doubt many people take reddit seriously.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: TimG on June 28, 2019, 03:48:21 pm
You rely on Reddit for guidance? It shows.
I will keep this quote for the next time you refer to Trump's tweets. What kind of person would rely on a medium like twitter for guidance?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on June 28, 2019, 03:58:19 pm
I will keep this quote for the next time you refer to Trump's tweets. What kind of person would rely on a medium like twitter for guidance?

You don't understand the difference between a direct quote and the machinations of a right wing blog site? Sheesh once again.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 28, 2019, 04:02:11 pm
Please tell us how he is comparable to a Nazi.

He has demonstrated his racist attitude on many occasions. Not only with the birther nonsense, but calling Colin Powell an "affirmative action general" or saying all native Americans ever achieved were dreamcatchers, tomahawks and cannibalism. Only his families religion (not sure if he is a practicing Jew) saves him from the NAZI label.

You don't know and don't care that Shapiro makes knowledgeable and reasonable arguments of many topics.

Yes, Shapiro is far more articulate than most right wing nutjobs. His arguments however are not reasonable on many topics, and his knowledge is either limited or very biased.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 28, 2019, 04:44:31 pm
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/4rnc4j/taken_from_one_of_the_heads_of_blm_toronto/

Hate speech is hate speech - unless your Granny. Then hate speech is only hate speech if she disagrees with it.

Ah, the same example PGraham posted. Lol
She is a little out there, and I wouldn't stand near her at a protest. Lol
But ... it is true that like much of evolution, white is a genetic mutation that stuck around and adapted to northern climates.

However, as an oppressed race that still faces considerable hatred, discrimination, and barriers, I don't find her words resonating with me as hatred.

Is there only one example in in the whole country?
 
Because I don't think you've really proved your point at all.
I don't 'hate' the silly bigots and white supremacists. They're just not to bright, mostly manipulated and misled by real sociopaths like Paul Fromm, plagued by childhood trauma and the more violent they become, the more they destroy their own lives. 
But they pick on and hurt vulnerable people on their way to self-destruction.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on June 28, 2019, 09:16:10 pm
Lots of left wing groups use violence and intimidation. There is no "tradition" that is exclusive to alt-right types.

How so ?

Quote
That is what free speech means. Exceptions apply to incitement for violence (ironically, the 'jews are evil' march is most likely going to come from left wing pro-Palestinian groups today).

Do you have an example ?

Quote
I used to be more sympathetic to notion that hateful speech that does not incite violence should be limited, however, it has become clear that any such limits will be used by people to censor legitimate political speech because too many people take that the attitude that people who they do not agree with are "evil" and any opinions they have are "hate speech" by definition.

Do you have an example ?

Quote
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech. There is no asymmetry in the substance of the speech or the tactics used by the speakers.

Do you have an example ?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 28, 2019, 11:18:48 pm
I have yet to hear about a left wing group protest a valid right wing group, the only groups they protest are the NAZI fascists.

There are right wing conservative campus groups like "Young America’s Foundation" at universities who host conservative speakers like Ben Shapiro, and those events are targeted sometimes by Antifa among other protestors/groups.

Quote
On September 14, conservative radio host Ben Shapiro gave a speech at the campus, which was covered by a crew for the political documentary No Safe Spaces.[59] No one wearing masks or with weapons was allowed on campus,[60] and the Berkeley City Council authorized the police to use pepper spray, a weapon that had been banned in the city for twenty years.[61] The campus also set up concrete barriers and metal detectors, with a UC spokesman stating that about $600,000 was spent on security for Shapiro's speech.[62] Hundreds gathered off campus at a "Refuse Fascism" rally to protest the event. Police made nine arrests; there was no major violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests#September_14

This makes no sense because Ben Shapiro, while he says controversial things like anti-trans & pro-choice viewpoints, he's an orthodox Jew who is not a Nazi and isn't remotely white nationalist or fascist and didn't vote for Trump.  Jordan Peterson is similar where he's controversial but not a Nazi/white nationalist/fascist.  I have no problem with people protesting these events as long as it's peaceful & the event isn't shut down.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on June 29, 2019, 12:45:14 am
He has demonstrated his racist attitude on many occasions. Not only with the birther nonsense, but calling Colin Powell an "affirmative action general" or saying all native Americans ever achieved were dreamcatchers, tomahawks and cannibalism. Only his families religion (not sure if he is a practicing Jew) saves him from the NAZI label.

That’s comparable to fucking Nazis??  Jesus man....     ::)
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 29, 2019, 02:33:30 pm
That’s comparable to fucking Nazis??  Jesus man....     ::)

Now we are onto the old level terminology. This is no different than the genocide debate, or the concentration camp debate. You have one side using the term because the person exhibits one or more traits, and the other side saying the person is pure as the driven snow because they haven't committed 100% of the sins.

Sorry if I skip this debate, it has played out too many times.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on June 29, 2019, 04:44:36 pm
Now we are onto the old level terminology. This is no different than the genocide debate, or the concentration camp debate. You have one side using the term because the person exhibits one or more traits, and the other side saying the person is pure as the driven snow because they haven't committed 100% of the sins.

Sorry if I skip this debate, it has played out too many times.

You’ve stretched the word Nazi to be anyone you disagree with.  That’s pathetic, frankly.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 29, 2019, 08:35:44 pm
Still trying to flog the "fine people on both sides" Trumpism I see. Well at least this "fine person" from, guess which side, got what he deserves.

James A. Fields Jr., the man who drove into a crowd of counterprotesters in Charlottesville's "Unite the Right" rally two years ago, leaving one woman dead, was sentenced Friday to life in prison in his federal hate crimes case.
Fields pleaded guilty to 29 federal hate crimes in March as part of an agreement that eliminated the death penalty as a possible punishment. Under the punishment imposed by US Judge Michael F. Urbanski, Fields will serve his sentence without the possibility of parole.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/28/us/charlottesville-car-attacker-sentencing/index.html

I assume the hate crime charges were for the person he killed and the other 19+ hit as he smashed through the crowd.

There just is no question, no two sides on this issue.
Whatever your personal issues and challenges, inciting hatred, doing violence to people just because of who they are - Gay,/Trans, Muslim, Jew, SJW - it's just plain wrong.

No two sides.
No "fine people" on both sides.
No "both sides are wankers".

There's haters who want to hate somebody, pick on somebody and do violence.
And there's people who don't want them to do that.

The haters are only 'winning' in the body count.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 29, 2019, 09:23:31 pm
But ... it is true that like much of evolution, white is a genetic mutation that stuck around and adapted to northern climates.

However, as an oppressed race that still faces considerable hatred, discrimination, and barriers, I don't find her words resonating with me as hatred.

Not hatred???  She's a black supremacist who clearly expressed that caucasians are genetically inferior.  That is the definition of racism.  There's lot of bad racist things lots of white people do, but you don't have to hate all of them as a race for the sins of only some.  Hell, go hate the bad ones who are racist, at least that makes sense.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 29, 2019, 09:43:16 pm
He has demonstrated his racist attitude on many occasions. Not only with the birther nonsense,

I don't remember seeing him be a birther. Link?

Quote
but calling Colin Powell an "affirmative action general"

I've never seen Shapiro say racist things.  But I looked this up, he tweeted it back in 2012, i won't defend that one.

Anything in the last 5 years?

Quote
or saying all native Americans ever achieved were dreamcatchers, tomahawks and cannibalism

He never said that.  A staff member posted a video with that in it on his website, he pulled it and apologized.

Quote
Only his families religion (not sure if he is a practicing Jew) saves him from the NAZI label.

You don't know Shapiro much at all then because he wears a kippah/yarmulke at all times. An orthodox jew who said one racist thing 7 years ago doesn't make him a Nazi.  I get people not liking him, he's controversial and very conservative, I disagree with him on lots of stuff like trans issues/gun control/healthcare, but he's not anything close to being a Nazi, he openly despises white nationalism, & didn't vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 29, 2019, 09:48:35 pm
Now we are onto the old level terminology. This is no different than the genocide debate, or the concentration camp debate. You have one side using the term because the person exhibits one or more traits, and the other side saying the person is pure as the driven snow because they haven't committed 100% of the sins.

Sorry if I skip this debate, it has played out too many times.

Yeah, maybe everything/everyone we vehemently disagree with isn't genocide and concentration camps and Nazis.  Comparing the people and deeds ones dislikes to Hitler and Nazis is the cheapest trick in the book.

Ben Shapiro is very clearly not a fascist.  He's actually been the target of a lot of anti-semetic hate the last few years.  Richard Spencer on the other hand...
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on June 30, 2019, 12:37:43 pm
You’ve stretched the word Nazi to be anyone you disagree with.  That’s pathetic, frankly.

I never used the word Nazi, but you were far too lazy to see that. It was Tim that introduced it, and I said it was not my preferred word (I gave a much better one if you care to look).

Yeah, maybe everything/everyone we vehemently disagree with isn't genocide and concentration camps and Nazis.  Comparing the people and deeds ones dislikes to Hitler and Nazis is the cheapest trick in the book.

Same answer
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 30, 2019, 04:31:33 pm
Not hatred???  She's a black supremacist who clearly expressed that caucasians are genetically inferior.  That is the definition of racism.

There's lot of bad racist things lots of white people do, but you don't have to hate all of them as a race for the sins of only some.  Hell, go hate the bad ones who are racist, at least that makes sense.
She said Caucasians are a genetic mutation. In the out-of-Africa paradigm, it is true. Albinism and other genetic skin conditions gave birth to Caucasians.
That isn't news. Lol

I'm pretty sure that she and I would agree that the white patriarchy is a big problem. Lol

I'm not threatened by a bit of militancy in search of social justice.
It is the normal way our society evolves.
People stand up to injustice.

Bigotry is the tool of the patriarchy, to divide people. 

Bigotry is a Police Chief who withholds police services so bigots can violently attack Pride folk.

This guy, Christopher Vanderweide from Kitchener, is now in jail awaiting bail court (bail opposed), assault with a weapon x2, for these assaults:
https://twitter.com/VestsCanada/status/1140272182293127173?s=20

Bigotry is a Mayor who says Pink Bloc caused upset and mayhem at Pride Fest.
Unh, no.
That would be the Hate Groups attacking people causing upset and mayhem.

The white patriarchy has it's story ...
'
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on June 30, 2019, 04:35:11 pm
I never used the word Nazi, but you were far too lazy to see that. It was Tim that introduced it, and I said it was not my preferred word (I gave a much better one if you care to look).

“Only his families religion (not sure if he is a practicing Jew) saves him from the NAZI label.”

=

I never called him a Nazi....    but he’s a Nazi.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 30, 2019, 07:24:27 pm
She said Caucasians are a genetic mutation. In the out-of-Africa paradigm, it is true. Albinism and other genetic skin conditions gave birth to Caucasians.
That isn't news. Lol

To continue to defend her is disgusting.  Here's a few quotes from her.  Swap white with black and it is exactly the same as white supremacist and Nazi nonsense, and is clearly racist hatred:

- "Whiteness is not humaness, In fact, white skin is sub-human."

- "white people are a genetic defect of blackness"

- "They [white people] are genetically deficient because...[goes on to list a whole bunch of reasons why]"

- "White people are recessive genetic defects, this is factual"

- "Black ppl simply through their dominant genes can literally wipe out the white race if we had the power to".
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on June 30, 2019, 07:35:12 pm
That's Toronto's issue.
Toronto Police still stayed on the job.

Not the topic of this thread.
We'd all be better off with a bit more melanin anyway.

And fewer violent white Christian bigots at Pride Fest.
https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_156194095667513&key=c7a018f99a67aaac33a35421e795cdf3&libId=jxjn9rbj010008oe000MAajuqptjo&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fcanadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com%2Fmanitoba-politics%2Fhamilton-pride-police-shame%2F105%2F%3Ftopicseen&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FVestsCanada%2Fstatus%2F1140272182293127173%3Fs%3D20&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fcanadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Dunreadreplies&title=Hamilton%20Pride%2C%20Police%20Shame&txt=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FVestsCanada%2Fstatus%2F1140272182293127173%3Fs%3D20

Do we really have to host bigots'  'free speech' at all public events they choose to harass and violently  attack?

They had free reign, no cops nearby.
Police would not respond to requests for help during violent attacks.

And according to the Mayor and Chief of Police,
... it's Pride's fault. Because the Police weren't "invited" to Pride Fest.

Chief thinks popo's hurt feelings warrant his refusal of Police service during violent hate assaults.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 01, 2019, 01:46:37 pm
Hamilton pride “leaders” are also a bunch of thugs looking for trouble. 

Quote
Hopperton, who was found guilty last year of being a "ringleader" in the Locke Street vandalism by anarchists opposing gentrification. The queer community, Hopperton said, should find the strength to be violent, or its choice to be peaceful will mean nothing.

I won’t say there’s good people on both sides...  I will say there are violent assholes who are looking for trouble on both sides. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 01, 2019, 02:25:40 pm
Hamilton pride “leaders” are also a bunch of thugs looking for trouble. 

I won’t say there’s good people on both sides...  I will say there are violent assholes who are looking for trouble on both sides.

Um, still sounds like a Trumpian attempt to equate the sides.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 01, 2019, 04:57:38 pm
That's Toronto's issue.

Deflect #1

Quote
Toronto Police still stayed on the job.

Deflect #2

Quote
Not the topic of this thread.

Deflect #3

Quote
We'd all be better off with a bit more melanin anyway.

Deflect #4.

Any reasonable person can see there's hate speech on the left too.  Some on the right tend to hate "the other" and minorities and those with less power, while some on the left tend to hate those with power who they see as oppressors (whites, rich, men, Americans etc).

I've had many people on the left on social media like this forum & twitter etc swear profanity-laced insults at me filled with such vile seething resentment i can just feel the hate inside of them for me when I'll politely disagree with them on some issue.

As for violence, the left can get riled up in a mob sometimes but the right is more violent, especially lethally violent.  The left doesn't take assault rifles to shoot up Wall Street.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 01, 2019, 08:49:26 pm
Maybe better if we label hate groups and try to disavow them so we can get rid of them.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 01, 2019, 09:00:19 pm
Maybe better if we label hate groups and try to disavow them so we can get rid of them.

Problem is it's hard to get rid of ideas and emotions.  We can ban groups, but online communities remain etc.  It's difficult, but we just have to do our best not to spread the problems via online etc.  The groups are symptoms of other issues we're trying to deal with as a society.  Major social changes.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 01, 2019, 10:32:11 pm
Any reasonable person can see there's hate speech on the left too.  Some on the right tend to hate "the other" and minorities and those with less power, while some on the left tend to hate those with power who they see as oppressors (whites, rich, men, Americans etc).
Who could have a problem with that?
Power that isn't elected, power that is corrupted?
Who has a problem with fixing that?
It's a civic duty.

Alt-right are damaged people. Hate is their drug of choice for self-destruction.
In May, Christopher Vanderweide of Kitchener, holding his newborn daughter, said she changed his life.
In June he came to Hamilton Pride Fest, a violent 'converted' Christian homophobe, and smashed Pink Bloc anarchists in the head and face with a helmet.
So he's in jail now, good 'conversion-therapied' Dad.
He's a hero to his prayerful bigot buddies, but none will be his surety. 
Alt-right just want hate and violence. They're deranged.

To the real left, hatred is a useless waste of emotion on those who do not feel. Sociopaths see profits not people.

And long may it be that the left fights oppression with a steely focus on transgressions of rights. 

Quote
I've had many people on the left on social media like this forum & twitter etc swear profanity-laced insults at me filled with such vile seething resentment i can just feel the hate inside of them for me when I'll politely disagree with them on some issue.

You can be a vile sanctimonious cementforbrains asshole sometimes.
That isn't polite.
You deserve to have your face chewed off with facts and evidence. Lol

Quote
As for violence, the left can get riled up in a mob sometimes but the right is more violent, especially lethally violent. The left doesn't take assault rifles to shoot up Wall Street.

Well ... you got that right.
I think anarchists want to destroy systems that divides people.
I think police try to divide people, try to criminalize the public dissent that defines democracy.
That's politically driven policing, suppressing dissent against political governments.
Governments that 'cannot direct the operations  of Police.
But they do try.
(See Ipperwash Inquiry.)

Just because it's what the local provincial federal government wants doesn't mean it's the right thing for  police to do.
Police have duties, oaths, a responsibility to every person in Canada.
They enforce laws impartially in that context.

They don't withhold service because they weren't "invited" to Pride Fest.
Assault hate crimes are still against the law.

 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 01, 2019, 11:13:55 pm
You can be a vile sanctimonious cementforbrains asshole sometimes.
That isn't polite.

Show me a post where i've ever been an asshole to anyone on these boards.  The proof is in the pudding.

Disagreeing with you politically doesn't make someone an asshole, despite what you think.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 02, 2019, 06:32:08 am
Problem is it's hard to get rid of ideas and emotions.  We can ban groups, but online communities remain etc.  It's difficult, but we just have to do our best not to spread the problems via online etc.  The groups are symptoms of other issues we're trying to deal with as a society.  Major social changes.

The growth of the groups happens online.  I'm glad to ban them.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 02, 2019, 09:01:20 am
Show me a post where i've ever been an asshole to anyone on these boards.  The proof is in the pudding.

Disagreeing with you politically doesn't make someone an asshole, despite what you think.

I'll let you know when It's happening again.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 02, 2019, 10:17:58 am
The growth of the groups happens online.  I'm glad to ban them.

The solution isn't banning speech....

The solutions are de-platforming, and combating hate speech with good speech.

From what I've seen with the SJW/anarchist "left" is that they want to ban any speech that doesn't agree with them.  Take Granny....  A microcosm of SJWs....  calling Moonlight names for disagreeing with her.

If you're going to ban "hate groups", then there's a bunch of antifa and anarchist groups that ought to be banned with them.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 02, 2019, 10:23:21 am
Sorry, I meant ban the online groups only which is deplatforming.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 01:15:44 pm
The solution isn't banning speech....

The solutions are de-platforming, and combating hate speech with good speech.

Actually, the legal solution is arresting people for
- public incitement of hatred (in public), or
- wilful promotion of hatred (online, etc)
(Section 319,  Criminal Code of Canada)
Until Police start documenting them, collecting evidence, laying charges ... drowning out hatred in public places is the standard way people deal with it: We are free to speak back. Lol

Quote
If you're going to ban "hate groups", then there's a bunch of antifa and anarchist groups that ought to be banned with them.
Towards whom?

There is no hatred toward protected groups coming from antifa.

Some police would like to get rid of everyone's rights to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech.
Ban protests and lock the protesters up!
LOL
Can anybody here think why that might be a bad idea?

Quote
From what I've seen with the SJW/anarchist "left" is that they want to ban any speech that doesn't agree with them.  Take Granny....  A microcosm of SJWs....  calling Moonlight names for disagreeing with her.

MG can be a sanctimonious asshole. He is free to be so. I am free to speak back.

Do you have a problem understanding what 'free speech' means, squid?


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 01:32:32 pm
Oh goody, someone else to call names.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 03, 2019, 01:51:15 pm
MG can be a sanctimonious asshole. He is free to be so. I am free to speak back.

Do you have a problem understanding what 'free speech' means, squid?

Everyone knows who the self-righteous asshole here is.  You're clearly not here for civil discussion. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 02:27:21 pm
Everyone knows who the self-righteous asshole here is.  You're clearly not here for civil discussion.  So go fuck yourself.

LOLOL
Discussion not going your way, MG?

Quote
Pride wouldn't let the police attend, wouldn't let them have a recruitment booth.  So they hate the police, until they need them.
It's a pretty sick way to learn a lesson, but maybe now Pride understands the value police have in the community ...

This is how you qualified for the "sanctimonious asshole" award.
Translation:
'It's ok for police to refuse to provide police services for Pride Fest ... because police weren't "invited" to Pride Fest.'
??
'It's ok for police to refuse to provide police services when Pride folk are being violently attacked by Hate groups ... because police weren't invited to Pride Fest.
??

Is that still the sanctimonious asshole line you're sticking to?

Because most people see a serious problem with that police behaviour.
It certainly is "pretty sick" behaviour by the Police Chief, allowing violent attacks by Hate groups at Pride Fest.


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 02:38:48 pm
Everyone knows who the self-righteous asshole here is.  You're clearly not here for civil discussion.  So go fuck yourself.

May I suggest you research the word "ironic".
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 03, 2019, 03:31:11 pm
Quote
Do you have a problem understanding what 'free speech' means, squid?

Yes.  Please tell me what that has to do with anything I said. 

Quote
Until Police start documenting them, collecting evidence, laying charges ... drowning out hatred in public places is the standard way people deal with it: We are free to speak back. Lol

The problem is, the SJWs don't target hate speech...  they target people like Jordan Peterson...   people whom they disagree with.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 03:33:38 pm
We get it.  You hate Jews. Police, and anything not left-of-centre.

Oh, the troll's back with a new name.

Interesting how far-right Jews like Vidorwhatever scream "You hate Jews" if you don't agree with their far-right, violent views.

No I don't hate police.
I actually really like police who do their jobs well.

I do get really pissed at Police brass who give them unlawful orders - e.g., to "stand down" and let Hate groups attack Pride Fest.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 03, 2019, 03:38:51 pm
Oh, the troll's back with a new name.

Yep, sounds like a brain dead interloper from mlw.
I'm guessing taxme, just sayin, you never know eh?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 03:48:16 pm
Yes.  Please tell me what that has to do with anything I said. 
You said:
Quote
From what I've seen with the SJW/anarchist "left" is that they want to ban any speech that doesn't agree with them.  Take Granny....  A microcosm of SJWs....  calling Moonlight names for disagreeing with her.
As I already said, MG is free to talk like a sanctimonious asshole and I am free to speak back.
That's just free speech. We all have it.

Quote
The problem is, the SJWs don't target hate speech...  they target people like Jordan Peterson...   people whom they disagree with.

So? You have a problem with free speech?
He's a hateful chauvinist pig, but I wouldn't waste time on that pathetic creep. But people are free to protest, drown him out if they wish. That's all free speech.

It concerns me much more that Hate groups targeting Muslims, Jews and Gay/Trans people are increasingly organized, increasingly violent, and are allowed to perpetrate hatred and violence in public spaces ... while police stand by and watch.
That's a concern for every community.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 03, 2019, 09:05:57 pm
Because most people see a serious problem with that police behaviour.
It certainly is "pretty sick" behaviour by the Police Chief, allowing violent attacks by Hate groups at Pride Fest.

Yes it is pretty sick.  That's why I said it was pretty sick.  Notice I didn't say it was "pretty awesome".  If you get "pretty awesome" from "pretty sick" that's cool LOL go nuts.

It's also pretty sick to go around calling people assholes.  But telling people off who call you an asshole because they get butthurt and have reading comprehension & selective reading problems is "pretty awesome".  And by pretty awesome I mean pretty sick.  Pretty sick awesome sick.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 04, 2019, 12:59:20 am
Drowning other people’s speech out is not a form of “free speech”.  That’s idiotic.   ::)
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 04, 2019, 06:52:43 am
Drowning other people’s speech out is not a form of “free speech”.  That’s idiotic.   ::)

Really ?  I'm not sure.  A bunch of people yelling seems like free speech, especially lately.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 04, 2019, 10:32:38 am
Really ?  I'm not sure.  A bunch of people yelling seems like free speech, especially lately.

Making it impossible for someone to use their free speech is just the opposite of what you're saying it is.    ::)

If everyone has a right to say what they want and be heard, then drowning them out by screaming like a banshee is impacting on their right.

I can see this issue driving people to the right of the political spectrum.   If the only party that attempts to defend the fundamental right of free speech is on the right of the political spectrum, then I can see lefties like me voting for them to defend that right.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 11:21:59 am
Making it impossible for someone to use their free speech is just the opposite of what you're saying it is.    ::)

If everyone has a right to say what they want and be heard, then drowning them out by screaming like a banshee is impacting on their right.

I can see this issue driving people to the right of the political spectrum.   If the only party that attempts to defend the fundamental right of free speech is on the right of the political spectrum, then I can see lefties like me voting for them to defend that right.

I fully agree with the concept of free speech, however I also think there should be a line drawn in the sand at hate speech. That's when things get complicated of course in determining exactly what constitutes hate speech. I would say the tiki torch wielders in Chatlotesville certainly made it across that line. Trump concluding that "there were very fine people on both sides" certainly wouldn't cause me to move my vote to the right.   
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 11:35:19 am
Making it impossible for someone to use their free speech is just the opposite of what you're saying it is.    ::)

If everyone has a right to say what they want and be heard, then drowning them out by screaming like a banshee is impacting on their right.

There is no rght to "be heard"

Free speech does not guarantee anybody an adoring audience.
Nobody 'has to' listen.
People get booed off stages all the time.
We all have free speech.
We can speak back.


I've had this conversation with police ... successfully.
Nobody 'has to' listen politely while hate groups speak.
We can, and do, drown them out to protect people from hatred in public spaces.

Pride Defenders can block them behind a curtain and drown them out to protect Pride families from hatred in a public park, at Pride Fest.

When frustrated Hate groups become violent, police can arrest them for their violence.
Problem solved ... usually ...

But not at Pride Hamilton, because Police Chief Eric Girt refused to provide police services to Pride Fest, refused to stop the violence of the Hate groups against Pride Defenders.

Does he think Hate groups are 'free' to use violence if no one will listen to them?! 

Do you, squid?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 04, 2019, 11:57:07 am
There is no rght to "be heard"

You know not of what you speak.

"Freedom of expression is the right to speak, but also the right to hear".
-Canadian Civil Liberties Association
https://ccla.org/focus-areas/fundamental-freedoms/freedom-of-expression-2/


Quote
Free speech does not guarantee anybody an adoring audience.

No one said it did.

Quote
Nobody 'has to' listen.

No one said they did. 

Quote
We all have free speech.

Not if someone is drowned out...  they lost their right to free speech and those listening lost their right to hear.

Quote
We can speak back.[/b]


Speak...  yes.   Not scream like a fucking banshee so no one can talk or hear.



Quote
Does he think Hate groups are 'free' to use violence if no one will listen to them?! 

Do you, squid?

No one said anything about "free to use violence".  That's idiotic and a straw man.  You are arguing against something that no one has put forward.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 12:15:22 pm
You know not of what you speak.

I do know exactly what I speak of. I've been doing this for years, and educating police too.

Quote
"Freedom of expression is the right to speak, but also the right to hear".
-Canadian Civil Liberties Association
https://ccla.org/focus-areas/fundamental-freedoms/freedom-of-expression-2/

That's not a right to "be heard".
Nobody 'has to' hear Hate speech in public spaces.
From your link:
CCLA recognizes that strong protections for freedom of expression come with responsibilities.  When free speech is used to denigrate individuals and groups, we advocate for counter-speech and denunciation, rather than censorship.
(Censorship is what governments do.)

Counter-speech is what people do to drown out hatred  in public spaces.

Quote
Not if someone is drowned out...  they lost their right to free speech
No they didn't. They just are not very popular and they got booed offstage. Too bad so sad.
No one wants to hear them.

Quote
and those listening lost their right to hear.
Nobody ever comes "to hear" Hate groups. Lol
Nobody has ever complained that they 'can't hear' a hate group.lol
They can get a fucking room and talk hatred all they want.
But not in public spaces.

Quote
Speak...  yes.   Not scream like a fucking banshee so no one can talk or hear.
No one wants to hear hate groups. Screaming is fine, horns, drums and noisemakers are too.

Go to a Ticats game ... it's ok to "scream like a fucking banshee" when warranted. Lol

Quote
No one said anything about "free to use violence".  That's idiotic and a straw man.  You are arguing against something that no one has put forward.
It is already "put forward" in this topic thread, because that is exactly what this thread is about:

Hamilton Police Chief Eric Girt refused police services to Pride Fest, and allowed Hate groups to violently attack Pride Defenders for close to an hour ... while police watched. 

Is that ok?
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 04, 2019, 01:11:19 pm
Quote
That's not a right to "be heard".

Free speech includes a right to hear ...   that's clear.


Quote
CCLA recognizes that strong protections for freedom of expression come with responsibilities.  When free speech is used to denigrate individuals and groups, we advocate for counter-speech and denunciation, rather than censorship.
(Censorship is what governments do.)

Counter-speech is what people do to drown out hatred  in public spaces.
 

That's total bullshit. 

The CCLA does NOT advocate drowning out other people so they can't be heard.   They advocate "counter-speech and denunciation"...  the exact opposite of what you are claiming.  That's not the same as drowning someone out you disagree with.  In fact, the CCLA thinks hate speech laws should be removed. 

You are clueless about the position of the CCLA.

Quote
I've been doing this for years, and educating police too.

You haven't taught the police anything.  You're making shit up again.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 04, 2019, 01:47:31 pm
I fully agree with the concept of free speech, however I also think there should be a line drawn in the sand at hate speech. That's when things get complicated of course in determining exactly what constitutes hate speech. I would say the tiki torch wielders in Chatlotesville certainly made it across that line.

There's a pretty high threshold usually to enforce hate speech in Canada, at least in the actual courts and not some of the more ridiculous provincial human rights tribunals that aren't run by real lawyers/judges.  Often it involves threats of violence against groups.  I'm sure some of the stuff in Charlottesville was hate speech if that happened in Canada.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 04, 2019, 01:53:47 pm
May I suggest you research the word "ironic".

Sorry, already tried turning the other cheek & being nice, it didn't work.  If there's going to be no punishment by mods for her actions, then i fight fire with fire and take matters into my own hands.  I won't start shit but i will end it.  And I really don't care in the least what you think about it since you're clearly biased and have a similar resentment for me as she does, simply based on the fact that I disagree with you politically.  Thanks for being so quick to defend me before (sarcasm), yet so quick to criticize me here.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 01:57:48 pm
There's a pretty high threshold usually to enforce hate speech in Canada, at least in the actual courts and not some of the more ridiculous provincial human rights tribunals that aren't run by real lawyers/judges.  Often it involves threats of violence against groups.  I'm sure some of the stuff in Charlottesville was hate speech if that happened in Canada.

Yeah I would say carrying a burning tiki torch, wearing a swastika arm bad/shirt, and chanting "Jews will no replace us" should be considered hate speech. If I was  was a Jew facing that I'd be scared for my safety.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 04, 2019, 02:06:50 pm
You said:As I already said, MG is free to talk like a sanctimonious asshole and I am free to speak back.
That's just free speech. We all have it.


(https://media.giphy.com/media/EdRgVzb2X3iJW/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 02:11:37 pm
Sorry, already tried turning the other cheek & being nice, it didn't work.  If there's going to be no punishment by mods for her actions, then i fight fire with fire and take matters into my own hands.  I won't start shit but i will end it.  And I really don't care in the least what you think about it since you're clearly biased and have a similar resentment for me as she does, simply based on the fact that I disagree with you politically.  Thanks for being so quick to defend me before (sarcasm), yet so quick to criticize me here.

Um, you told a poster to "go fuck yourself" in the same sentence as you tried to tout "civil discussion". "Ironic" would be a rather polite description I chose.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 04, 2019, 02:19:47 pm
Um, you told a poster to "go fuck yourself" in the same sentence as you tried to tout "civil discussion". "Ironic" would be a rather polite description I chose.

Um, you didn't get my point.

Um also, if people aren't going to be polite to me here when I've been polite to them, i will treat them as they treat me.  That includes starting responses to me with a condescending "um".  Not sure what i ever did to you either.  I'm polite, but i'm not a pussy, i don't shit from anybody.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 02:25:27 pm
Um, you didn't get my point.

Um also, if people aren't going to be polite to me here when I've been polite to them, i will treat them as they treat me.  That includes starting responses to me with a condescending "um".  Not sure what i ever did to you either.  I'm polite, but i'm not a pussy, i don't shit from anybody.

Apparently you didn't get (or ignored) my point. BTW, it was a point not "shit"
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 02:57:00 pm
Granny doesn't seem to understand the difference between the right to be heard and the right to hear. Wonder how much she would like people she doesn't agree with deciding what she is allowed to hear.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 03:02:11 pm
Um, you told a poster to "go fuck yourself" in the same sentence as you tried to tout "civil discussion". "Ironic" would be a rather polite description I chose.

I think "go fuck yourself" is a quite understandable response to being called a "sanctimonious asshole". Particularly if you didn't start the name calling.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Omni on July 04, 2019, 03:05:31 pm
I think "go fuck yourself" is a quite understandable response to being called a "sanctimonious asshole". Particularly if you didn't start the name calling.

So much for civil discussion then I guess.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 03:07:27 pm
So much for civil discussion then I guess.

It's as civil as we make it. PG didn't didn't lower the civility, he just responded in kind.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 03:16:33 pm
Free speech includes a right to hear ...   that's clear.
Let me know when someone complains about not being able to hear bigots inciting hatred.
Nobody ever comes to hear them in public places. Lol
If somebody wants to hear them, they can get a room.

Quote
The CCLA does NOT advocate drowning out other people so they can't be heard.   They advocate "counter-speech and denunciation"
Counter speech and denunciation can be quite loud.
Louder even than Special Olympians booing Ford.
You can never stop people from that, nor from booing white supremacists and anti-gay Christian bigots.
That's all free speech.
Nobody said it was always polite. Lol

Quote
In fact, the CCLA thinks hate speech laws should be removed.
  I think it was removed from the Human Rights Code by Harper. Your article must be old.

But the Criminal Code still applies:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html
[/quote]

Counter speech and denunciation does include drowning out hateful speech.
We are all free to speak in public spaces.
There is no 'right' for hatred to 'be heard'.
That's absurd.
No one 'has to' listen to hate speech in public spaces. 
They will be drowned out.
They may be violent.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 04, 2019, 03:26:44 pm
Let me know when someone complains about not being able to hear bigots inciting hatred.
Nobody ever comes to hear them in public places. Lol
If somebody wants to hear them, they can get a room.

This is nonsense.  You're just trying to backtrack and change the subject because you are completely wrong about what free speech is.  Inciting hatred is covered by the Criminal Code.  Until they actually do incite hatred, then they have the same free speech rights as you or I.  And I have found that you should definitely not be the arbiter of what speech should be heard and what should be drowned out by screaming banshee SJWs.

Quote
Counter speech and denunciation can be quite loud.
Louder even than Special Olympians booing Ford.
You can never stop people from that, nor from booing white supremacists and anti-gay Christian bigots.
That's all free speech.
Nobody said it was always polite. Lol
 

This is rambling, incoherent nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.


Quote
Counter speech and denunciation does include drowning out hateful speech.

To you it does...   the CCLA doesn't think so, but you said they do.  You're blowing smoke again.

Quote
We are all free to speak in public spaces.
There is no 'right' for hatred to 'be heard'.
That's absurd.
No one 'has to' listen to hate speech in public spaces. 
They will be drowned out.
They may be violent.

You're rambling and incoherent again.

Debating your posts is like nailing jello to a wall...  you're just left with a mess.  You're incoherent.  You are constantly using straw man arguments.  You resort to childish insults when you don't like what someone says.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 04:17:32 pm
Granny still doesn't understand the difference between the right to hear and the right to be heard. She should be able to shout down anything she doesn't like but have the right to hear anything she does like.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 04:18:46 pm
Granny doesn't seem to understand the difference between the right to be heard and the right to hear.

There is no "right to be heard" for hate groups in public spaces. Anybody can be booed offstage (by free speech) anytime.

And I do mean anybody:  Doug Ford, for example, currently avoiding public places for that very reason. Cancelled Canada Day at Queens Park, even.  Lol

And nobody's ever complained about not being able to 'hear' hate groups in public spaces, in my experience. Lol
Anybody who wants to 'hear' hate groups can always  do it in private.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 04:23:31 pm
There is no "right to be heard" for hate groups in public spaces. Anybody can be booed offstage (by free speech) anytime.

And I do mean anybody:  Doug Ford, for example, currently avoiding public places for that very reason. Cancelled Canada Day at Queens Park, even.  Lol

And nobody's ever complained about not being able to 'hear' hate groups in public spaces, in my experience. Lol
Anybody who wants to 'hear' hate groups can always  do it in private.

Like I said, you don't understand the difference between a person's right to hear something and a persons right to be heard. You are not the arbiter of what others are allowed to hear.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 04:38:43 pm
  Inciting hatred is covered by the Criminal Code.  Until they actually do incite hatred, then they have the same free speech rights as you or I.

Hate groups are always trying to incite hatred against groups protected by the Constitution. That's why they rally in public spaces. It's what they do ... in public spaces.
Otherwise, if they just want to talk to each other, they'd just get a room. Lol

I won't even try to address why police don't arrest/charge them for public incitement of hatred.
You tell me ... Lol
They have made some progress in doing so in some places in Canada, but only with huge public outcry.

Quote
And I have found that you should definitely not be the arbiter of what speech should be heard and what should be drowned out by screaming banshee SJWs.


There is no "should". There is only what people are willing to tolerate in public spaces.
We are free to assemble to counter-speak,  speak back at them.
We are free to drown them out.

Do you think police should be letting violent Hate groups attack Pride Fest with amplified hatred and huge hate signs in a public park? Should police just stand back and let that happen, let families, kids, teens, Gay, Lesbian, Trans people have their festival disrupted and destroyed by hateful Christian bigots and other homophobic hate groups?
Is that your point?

Maybe you should read the OP so you understand the specific situation under discussion here.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 04:44:28 pm

There is no "should". There is only what people are willing to tolerate in public spaces.
We are free to speak back.
We are free to drown them out.

So you don't believe in freedom of speech or the freedom to hear. You just believe in might makes right. The only opinion that counts is yours and you will do your best to prevent anything that contradicts you.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 05:14:55 pm
Like I said, you don't understand the difference between a person's right to hear something and a persons right to be heard. You are not the arbiter of what others are allowed to hear.

It's not a problem in public spaces. Nobody ever comes to hear them. Lol But there may be hundreds who come to counter them, drown them out.

If they book a room and invite only those who want to hear them ... maybe that's another matter.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 04, 2019, 05:51:31 pm
here is no "should". There is only what people are willing to tolerate in public spaces.
We are free to assemble to counter-speak,  speak back at them.
We are free to drown them out.

Quote
It's not a problem in public spaces. Nobody ever comes to hear them. Lol But there may be hundreds who come to counter them, drown them out.

The police should be enforcing hate speech in the streets, that's the law (yes I know they didn't in this case, & yes that's a bad problem).

But what if an alt-right group gets a permit to have an assembly in a public place, but they've never spoken legal "hate speech" before and aren't doing so during the event, but are saying some very controversial things, like we must lower annual immigration rates etc.  Should protestors be free to drown them out with heckling etc.?  Is that breaking the law by "disturbing the peace" etc since they have a permit?  Is it harassment?

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 07:23:47 pm
It's not a problem in public spaces. Nobody ever comes to hear them. Lol But there may be hundreds who come to counter them, drown them out.

If they book a room and invite only those who want to hear them ... maybe that's another matter.
So let them speak to no one.  Why do you need to drown them out if no one is listening anyway?[/quote]

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 07:26:25 pm
So you don't believe in freedom of speech or the freedom to hear. You just believe in might makes right.


Might in public voices to protect public spaces from hatred, yes.
And to defend.

Violent aggression against people ... because they are Gay Muslim etc ...  that comes from the right, as already acknowledged by some here.

And that's what happened here.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: wilber on July 04, 2019, 07:48:41 pm


Might in public voices to protect public spaces from hatred, yes.
And to defend.

Violent aggression against people ... because they are Gay Muslim etc ...  that comes from the right, as already acknowledged by some here.

And that's what happened here.

Quite the crusader aren't you. And you call others sanctimonious.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 04, 2019, 08:15:44 pm
The police should be enforcing hate speech in the streets, that's the law (yes I know they didn't in this case, & yes that's a bad problem).

Hate speech charges don't exist.

And it's quite onerous for police to lay charges under Section 319 - Public incitement of hatred. It requires documentation, investigation. It takes a long time and has to be approved by a politician, the Attorney General.
Wilful promotion of hatred (online, flyers, etc) likewise.

Hate crimes are only added to other offenses, and definitely should be for Christopher Vanderweide's assault w weapon x2.
Mr. V is a conversion-therapied hate filled violent Christian bigot ... criminal.

Quote
But what if an alt-right group gets a permit to have an assembly in a public place, but they've never spoken legal "hate speech" before and aren't doing so during the event, but are saying some very controversial things, like we must lower annual immigration rates etc.  Should protestors be free to drown them out with heckling etc.?  Is that breaking the law by "disturbing the peace" etc since they have a permit?  Is it harassment?

I don't think permits are given to hate groups in Toronto anymore. If so, good move by the Mayor.

Nobody get a permit to protest.
You don't ask permission from government to protest government ... or anybody else. Lol

Hate groups are not a fucking parade.

But they love their police escort/security detail.
(Not sure why, because the Mayor/government can't direct the operations of the Police.)
That's not a cheering crowd for their parade, though.
Those are people of faith and strong conviction that Hate groups will not be tolerated in public spaces.

That's democracy in action.
We won't have groups spreading hatred in public spaces.

We're not the violent hateful alt-right criminals.

We're the public, protecting our own spaces from hatred.

I get that it's a challenge for police.

But hate groups put themselves there, in public, knowing that they won't be tolerated.
That's their choice, their problem.

They will be drowned out and chased away.

That's our right, to keep our neighbourhoods free of public hatred.

Police lining up to protect violent hate-filled criminals' 'free hate speech'... standing back to let criminals violently attack TransGendered anarchists, as happened here ...

Not acceptable.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: guest67 on July 04, 2019, 08:43:57 pm
I need to find you a nice comfortable retirement home Granny
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 05, 2019, 12:29:50 am
Might in public voices to protect public spaces from hatred, yes.
And to defend.

The problem is, who decides what is "hatred".  You?  Me? It should be left up to the law. Unfortunately, the police failed to do their job in this case, big-time.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 05, 2019, 12:57:09 am
The problem is, who decides what is "hatred".  You?  Me? It should be left up to the law. Unfortunately, the police failed to do their job in this case, big-time.

The law isn't very helpful, but it can't be overly restrictive. So some civic action is also necessary..

It's unacceptable that police sometimes try to criminalize that civic action.

And of course, thoroughly unacceptable that in this case they allowed people to be violently attacked by Hate groups.
And police continue to harass those who were attacked.
Pretty sick.
It's a mess.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: the_squid on July 05, 2019, 10:42:34 am

And of course, thoroughly unacceptable that in this case they allowed people to be violently attacked by Hate groups.
And police continue to harass those who were attacked.

I don't believe your characterization of the events.  The police weren't there...  they can't be everywhere.   They've made arrests.  Nothing to see here.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 07, 2019, 05:37:50 pm
I don't believe your characterization of the events.  The police weren't there...  they can't be everywhere.   They've made arrests.  Nothing to see here.

Lots of cops watching from a distance, the edge of a large park.
 It took them 40 minutes to respond.

Police Chief:
"Keeping mind the context here. We were not invited to the event," he explained. "We were asked not to be at the event and we remained on the perimeter."
The chief noted the service's request to have a recruitment booth at Pride was denied.
He also said the decision to keep officers to the outer edge of the park was intentional.


I don't blame officers.
I blame biased and unlawful orders.
And it seems the Chief is still proud of his orders.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 08, 2019, 04:12:20 pm
So let them speak to no one.  Why do you need to drown them out if no one is listening anyway?

We don't want to hear hateful speech in public spaces. It isn't appropriate to poison public spaces that way,  when children or members of the groups they attack may be walking through, waiting for a bus, etc.

No one does come to hear them, and the only reason tbey are there is to challenge the laws, and be hateful to people.
Quote
Wilber: 
 One thing I do know. No one could depend on you to stick up for their rights unless they are aligned with your own personal prejudices.

My "prejudice" is that policing is extremely important, and must be done impartially.
That didn't happen here.

I don't believe police officers should be put in the position of obeying obviously biased orders from a Police Chief and a vindictive Mayor who thinks he has a right to direct the operations of the Police.

That's at least two violations of The Police Services Act, I believe.

People attending Pride Fest have a right to expect police protection from violent assaults by homophobic Hate groups.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 13, 2019, 11:31:06 am

Anti-gay bullying and violence, homophobic hatred ... and repressed homosexuality

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 13, 2019, 11:57:36 am
Quick update from Hamilton:

The Police Chief has not spoken publicly since his disastrous CBC interview where he gloated about refusing policing services to Pride folk under attack by violent Christian homophobes.
The Mayor has both feet in his mouth every time he speaks.
Mayor and Chief both continue to blame Pride ... and the Mayor wonders why he's getting hate mail. Lol

The Mayor and Council are entertaining a draft "Hate incident prevention policy" that never mentions hate except in the false title, and proceeds with a long list of petty nonsense things that "protesters" cannot do on public property, most of which violate Constitutional rights.

So ... Camp Chaos Gayz is now encamped outside City Hall, with hundreds of people rallying and partying there, intentionally breaking every 'rule' in the draft policy, and posting pictures to prove it. Lol

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10161926314250384&id=883820383

Tents, loudspeakers, generators, cars, children drawing with chalk on the cement, using electrical outlets, closing the road ... having 'unpermitted' nighttime dance parties, putting up posters everywhere that say "no posters without prior approval" ... lol

... general hilarity and playful pokes at City Hall.
Love it! LOL

With very serious intent.

 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 25, 2019, 11:11:07 am
Complaint alleges a Hamilton police officer at Pride said violence is 'not my problem'

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/violence-hamilton-pride-complaint-1.5220932

Ontario's police watchdog is investigating allegations that a Hamilton police officer refused to address a woman's report about the violent altercation at Pride, saying it was "not my problem" because police "weren't invited to Pride."

The officer referenced Hamilton police not getting a recruitment booth at the Pride event, said Caitlin Edwards, who filed the complaint with the Office of the Independent Police Review Director (OIPRD). The office is now looking into it.
...
Edwards said she got angry and started yelling at the officer that she wasn't doing her job. The officer yelled back, Edwards said.

"She kept saying, 'It's not our problem. We weren't given a recruit tent, we weren't invited, we're not moving," said Edwards.
...
The OIPRD also could not comment on Edwards's complaint, but said it has received "multiple complaints" in relation to the Hamilton Pride event.
...
Edwards said she couldn't understand why a uniformed police officer refused to address her report.

She was just a mom walking through a park who "saw a fight, told an officer," she said. "It just got so weird and so crazy with her telling me no."

'I don't trust the cops after what I saw'



I am very glad Ms. Edward's has come forward and submitted a complaint. The article said another person approaching police to ask assistance witnessed some of her interaction with police too.


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 25, 2019, 09:24:34 pm
Hamilton: tops in hate crime

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hate-crime-statistics-canada-hamilton-1.5221663

WTF.  The town that is ramping up to become Toronto's arts exurb is also the hate capital ....
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 26, 2019, 08:28:12 pm
Hamilton: tops in hate crime

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hate-crime-statistics-canada-hamilton-1.5221663

WTF.  The town that is ramping up to become Toronto's arts exurb is also the hate capital ....
"arts exurb" ? That's a new one! Lol
Yes, we're the goto for flight-from-Toronto-housing-prices. They seem to like it here. They've got lots of opportunities to rebuild communities that still suffer from the flight-to-the-suburbs, and automation layoffs at the steel mills from the '80's. Huge impact. Ongoing.

I've lived in the downtown core (includes the waterfront) for 23 years, and not seen much racism. (Saw worse once on Yonge St in T.) But I wouldn't be the target, wouldn't know.

 We have some - ok a lot - ok you have to be - mischief-makers: I do think painting swastikas may often be more about hurting kids hurting others ... mischief-known-to-cause-drama. That did happen once nearby, and often on mosques and synagogues, once a Hindu Temple fire (thought they were Muslims).
I'd like to see the data on grafitti compared to verbal/physical assaults, etc.  Too lazy to look today, though. Lol

I believe we currently have some problems in local politics and policing that may be contributing to a perception that expressions of hatred won't be consequated, that hate speech is protected as free speech.

Of course, we do also have a fairly large contingent of low income white people who see little reason to believe that the system privileges them - mischief makers. They'll claim 'white pride' sometimes, just to keep up with/piss off  their black/Muslim buddies.  Lol 
 It's not the burbs down here.

But if you're straight with someone, they'll be straight with you. It's about who you prove yourself to be, not race, gender, etc.

I'll be curious to see whether the assaults on people at Pride Fest even get counted as hate crimes, since police Chief and Mayor are so adamant that it was all Pride's fault. (!!)  The only  one arrested is not even  charged for a hate crime. But those are the worst hate crime assaults I've heard of in Hamilton.

There's some gang stuff, but mostly they cooperate to  focus on profits, not racism. Street stuff ... there might be racist remarks sometimes, but somebody behaving badly can get called n***** even if he isn't black. Not an attack/ harassment because of race but because of  bad behaviour, but not acceptable either as it's still derogatory to Black people. (Tried explaining that to my young street homies ... aaaaarrrrgh!)

Unless you count hate crimes by police ... letting a young Muslim man die on the sidewalk because they 'assumed' he was a perp, but he was a victim who was shot trying to stop the perps from robbing an elderly man. Not ok to denigrate him and let him bleed to death anyway.

Racial profiling is an issue ... cops doing "street checks" - ie harassing - a black City Councillor.
Police Services Board always backs and excuses police, doesn't even pretend to provide civilian 'oversight'.

But I doubt the cops counted those as hate crimes by cop.

I think we have some biases at high levels ... and I think that attitude is filtering down.

I mean, ffs, the Mayor wouldn't talk seriously to the Pride Fest ctte about their concerns before Pride Fest. So the ctte said they didn't want the Pride flag-raising ceremony until he did address their concerns. He just put it up anyway.
(After the violent hate attacks at Pride Fest, some "bionic lesbians" and others climbed City Hall and took back the Pride flag that they had gifted to the city. Lol )

Police say the rate of reporting hate crimes is increasing because of the community outreach work they've been doing. Good so far ...

But ... I can't wait to hear the Police community spiel about reporting hate crimes against Trans people. <slight sarcasm>

To end on a lighter note ... in the north end, the Irish kids steal tomatoes from the Italians' gardens, and throw them at doors/windows. Quite disconcerting when I moved in. Police explained it to me.
Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 28, 2019, 08:28:50 am
I've lived in the downtown core (includes the waterfront) for 23 years, and not seen much racism. (Saw worse once on Yonge St in T.) But I wouldn't be the target, wouldn't know.

Wait.  I thought you were in IT and lived out West ?  Did I get you confused with someone ?

Quote
 
I believe we currently have some problems in local politics and policing that may be contributing to a perception that expressions of hatred won't be consequated, that hate speech is protected as free speech.

Of course, we do also have a fairly large contingent of low income white people who see little reason to believe that the system privileges them - mischief makers. They'll claim 'white pride' sometimes, just to keep up with/piss off  their black/Muslim buddies.  Lol 
 It's not the burbs down here.

But if you're straight with someone, they'll be straight with you. It's about who you prove yourself to be, not race, gender, etc.

Straight ?   ???

Quote
To end on a lighter note ... in the north end, the Irish kids steal tomatoes from the Italians' gardens, and throw them at doors/windows. Quite disconcerting when I moved in. Police explained it to me.
Lol

1930s problems...
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 01:33:53 pm
Wait.  I thought you were in IT and lived out West ?  Did I get you confused with someone ?
Must have.
I'm a stats person (retired) in Ontario. Lol
(Lived out west for a while, decades ago.)
Quote
Straight ?   ???
Ya, maybe a confusing choice of words, given the topic.lol  Not sure what today's slang is for ' be honest'.
Quote
1930s problems...
Yes, kinda cute.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 28, 2019, 01:44:36 pm
Must have.
I'm a stats person (retired) in Ontario. Lol

You're a stats woman who is retired ?  I feel a budding crush coming on...

How old are you ?
Where/when did you graduate ?
What was your program ?

ha ha
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 02:19:29 pm
You're a stats woman who is retired ?  I feel a budding crush coming on...

How old are you ?
Where/when did you graduate ?
What was your program ?

ha ha

Sorry, no crushes allowed. Younger man with baby looking for another mommy? No thx. Lol
Actually ... gagmewithaspoonGROSS! Haha Haha!

How old am I ? Who the hell asks a woman that! Lol
Likewise any personal info.

But we can talk correlations and trend lines and scatter plots and all that sexy stuff. Lol 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 28, 2019, 02:25:25 pm
<3 <3 <3
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 02:27:37 pm
<3 <3 <3

I'm old. I don't know what that means ... other than ...
 Lessthan3 Lessthan3 Lessthan3.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 03:31:12 pm
Saturday ... and the YellowVests&friends are back at City Hall, screened from the public and drowned out by a crowd of anti-hate Hamiltonians.
 
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9523271-hamilton-anti-hate-rally-as-long-as-they-re-still-here-we-need-to-be-here-/

Pro-diversity demonstrators waved signs at passing motorists and pedestrians outside city hall Saturday amid concerns about a rise in hate group activity in Hamilton.

The rally was an ongoing effort to drown out anti-immigration sentiment expressed by yellow-vest and alt-right protesters who have gathered in the Main Street West [CITY HALL] square for more than a year.


Nobody 'has to' see them or hear them. Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: ?Impact on July 28, 2019, 03:43:26 pm
Who the hell asks a woman that!

I ask that all the time, right before how much do you weigh.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 03:50:41 pm
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/9523401-kitchener-man-charged-in-hamilton-pride-assault-skips-anti-bullying-rally-that-he-organized/?utm_source=twitter&source=thespec&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=300pm&utm_campaign_id=localnews&utm_content=kitchener-man-charged-in-hamilton-pride-assault-skips-anti-bullying-rally-that-he-organized

A Chris Vanderweide supporter holding a flag associated with a white nationalist group known as ID Canada faces off with counter-protester Woody Boychuk as police stand nearby. - David Bebee , Waterloo Region Record

Counter-protester Woody Boychuk, centre left, embraces a fellow demonstrator in front of Chris Vanderweide supporters and police at Kitchener City Hall. - David Bebee , Waterloo Region Record

KITCHENER — The guy organized his own rally, but he never showed up.

Christopher Vanderweide of Kitchener had dubbed the event an "anti-bullying rally" at Kitchener City Hall on Saturday afternoon.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 28, 2019, 03:52:23 pm
I ask that all the time, right before how much do you weigh.

Charming.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 28, 2019, 05:14:26 pm
I'm old. I don't know what that means ... other than ...
 Lessthan3 Lessthan3 Lessthan3.

They are hearts.  When did you go to school ?  There's a small chance I know you !
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 28, 2019, 05:15:25 pm
I ask that all the time, right before how much do you weigh.

Asking an online stranger a question is quite a different thing. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 29, 2019, 08:42:00 am
They are hearts.  When did you go to school ?  There's a small chance I know you !
Doubtful.
I thought the "gagmewithaspoon" comment would be an era clue for you. If it escapes you ... you're just a youngster. Lol


Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on July 29, 2019, 10:11:45 am
Doubtful.
I thought the "gagmewithaspoon" comment would be an era clue for you. If it escapes you ... you're just a youngster. Lol

You don't know how old I am !   :D

Play along.... did you go to UW in the 80s ???
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on July 29, 2019, 10:11:05 pm
You don't know how old I am !   :D

Play along.... did you go to UW in the 80s ???
I'm older than that!  Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on August 31, 2019, 06:26:05 pm
Two months later ...
After huge public backlash and multiple formal complaints to OIPRD (in progress) ...
https://www.oiprd.on.ca/complaints/complaint-forms/
... about police standing by while homophobic hate groups attacked people at Hamilton Pride Fest, the Chief of Police has finally (imo) distanced himself from the Mayor's influence and biased responses, and approached the LGBTQ2 community to acknowledge police responsibility:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lgbtq-community-hamilton-police-meeting-1.5266556

At a meeting with members of the LGBTQ community Thursday, Hamilton police expressed regret about the state of their relationship with the community and acknowledged "there are lessons to be learned."

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 01, 2019, 10:02:08 am
Those of us in the 'mushy middle' have to do as much as we can to bring this terrible behaviour by our civil service to the 'public' attention.

Yes - there are hate mongers and violent offenders working in police and military, and sometimes even position of power.  They don't have the luxury of imposing their extreme views on those of us who pay their salaries.... ie. the mushy middle.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 01, 2019, 05:28:10 pm
Those of us in the 'mushy middle' have to do as much as we can to bring this terrible behaviour by our civil service to the 'public' attention.

Yes - there are hate mongers and violent offenders working in police and military, and sometimes even position of power.  They don't have the luxury of imposing their extreme views on those of us who pay their salaries.... ie. the mushy middle.
The overriding issue in this situation appears to be political interference in police operations, imo. 
Nonetheless, police are accountable for their actions, including any actions or inactions that may have been politically influenced: It is their responsibility to do their jobs "impartially", regardless.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 15, 2019, 08:52:20 am
I wish the LGBT community would take some accountability over this. If they tell Police they are not welcome, and protest their presence, then don't cry when they respect your wishes and stay away.  It's hypocrisy. You either want Police at the parade or you do not want them there. If the LGBT community feels that Police should not be there, then train some of the members of the community in self defense, for Christ sakes. 

Typical leftist radicals. They brought this upon themselves.

It's funny, that stupid nonsense about police not being "welcome". It's not true. It's homophobic  smear and hate propaganda by the Chief of Police and the Mayor. I see you fell for it!!!

Firefighters still do their jobs without being invited to set up a recruiting booth.

In fact, we've looked all over the current street festival in town and we can't find the police recruiting booth, and yet the police are still  around doing their job!!

Why did the Police Chief think they needed to be invited to have a recruiting booth in order to do their job??!!
What's the point of even calling 911 when you need help, if they have to set up a recruiting booth in front of your place first, or they won't help you? 
Ridiculous.

Do you get the point, Faith?
Nobody told police to stay away.
They just didn't want police to have a recruiting booth at Pride Fest.
The Chief of Police had a hissy fit about that, ordered officers to stand down and let homophobes violently attack Pride people ... because the Chief IS a homophobe.

The Chief, as reported above, tried to make amends ... likely because he's now been reported to provincial authorities and is under investigation.

But this week he blew it totally, went on public radio and ranted about bathhouses, sex in public bathrooms, raping boys, anal sex ... typical 1950's HOMOPHOBIA.
Now he's apologized again,  sorry-not sorry style, with more of his pubescent giggling.

There are homophobes in high places who enjoy setting gay and Trans people up to get beaten up, while they watch and giggle.

That's what happened.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 15, 2019, 09:07:08 am
Faith! Did you 'accidently' delete your raging homophobic and violent fantasy rant? Fortunately, I captured it.
This is what you said.

Faith:
"I would personally love to see Jessica Yaniv get beat down. Same with that NDP cross-dresser Morgane Oger.  I hope Rachel Mackinnon suffers a career ending cycling injury.

These people are freaks, and are a thorn in the side of Canada. The LGBT community needs to put a stop to these freaks."


There it is, folks. That's what it was before she deleted it. That's what we're dealing with in Hamilton: Homophobic hate groups ... who are also white supremacists and claim "Christian" motives.

Troll "Faith" is obviously one of the homophobes and Transphobes who attacked Pride Fest and infest City Hall with hate signs every Saturday.

She might be the one who calls herself "Lily", has a sign that says "Homosexuals are killing the white race", and last Saturday attacked Andrea Horwath (ON NDP leader) at City Hall.
Oh ... and cuddling and canoodling with Paul Fromm, notorious white supremacist.

I'm not sure why she's using "Faith" (Goldy?) as a name. Faith Goldy is hateful, but she's not that stupid. Lol
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 15, 2019, 09:11:00 am
Granny there's a forecast of "chance of trolling" today.

Individuals voicing dislike for the police, or even the organization saying that they didn't want police marching of course in now way conveys a wish to not be protected for our tax dollars.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 15, 2019, 09:33:17 am
Granny there's a forecast of "chance of trolling" today.

Individuals voicing dislike for the police, or even the organization saying that they didn't want police marching of course in now way conveys a wish to not be protected for our tax dollars.
A troll, clearly.

Just to clarify ... there was no Pride Fest parade in Hamilton, just an afternoon family-friendly festival in a park, a stage with entertainment, vendor booths, etc.
Police wanted to have a Recruiting booth there. They were turned down.
So they delayed/refused service, watched, when Pride people were being violently attacked by hate groups. Then police spent two weeks harassing and arresting those who were attacked, and one Trans person who wasn't even there. 

Multiple complaints to OIPRD, investigations in progress.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2019, 09:58:23 am
Faith! Did you 'accidently' delete your raging homophobic and violent fantasy rant? Fortunately, I captured it.
This is what you said.

Faith:
"I would personally love to see Jessica Yaniv get beat down. Same with that NDP cross-dresser Morgane Oger.  I hope Rachel Mackinnon suffers a career ending cycling injury.

These people are freaks, and are a thorn in the side of Canada. The LGBT community needs to put a stop to these freaks."


There it is, folks. That's what it was before she deleted it. That's what we're dealing with in Hamilton: Homophobic hate groups ... who are also white supremacists and claim "Christian" motives.

It's certainly awful that someone would wish an injury upon Dr Rachel McKinnon, college professor, world famous cycling champion, trans rights advocate, media personality, motivational speaker, etc.

But I do think it bears mention that Dr McKinnon has spent the past couple of weeks gloating and celebrating as a 35 year old woman suffered from the final stages of terminal brain cancer.

 -k
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 16, 2019, 05:10:06 pm
It's certainly awful that someone would wish an injury upon Dr Rachel McKinnon, college professor, world famous cycling champion, trans rights advocate, media personality, motivational speaker, etc.

But I do think it bears mention that Dr McKinnon has spent the past couple of weeks gloating and celebrating as a 35 year old woman suffered from the final stages of terminal brain cancer.

 -k

I'm not sure of the context for your last comment, kimmy. Elaborate if you wish.

It does seem that 'Faith' initially smeared all "LGBT" people, and then really zeroed in on Trans people.
There is something quite reprehensible about wishing death on other people, no matter the reason - including both 'Faith' and Dr MacKinnon, if so.

There is also something quite reprehensible about a Police Chief delaying police service to people who are under violent attack ... BECAUSE they are LGBTQ+ (not all Trans), blaming and arresting the victims instead of the violent homophobic perps, then using sexualized language on public radio to smear and degrade all homosexuals.
Homophobia is rampant in police forces, and clearly exposed here.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 17, 2019, 04:53:02 am
Homophobia is rampant but not so openly tolerated as in Hamilton.  And yet somehow there is no continuous media outrage. 
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 17, 2019, 08:39:37 am
Homophobia is rampant but not so openly tolerated as in Hamilton.  And yet somehow there is no continuous media outrage.

Imagine that!
Major media downplaying, minimizing, shoving it under a rug ... just like the Mayor and PSB and the Chief of Police.
3 months later, and Council is just beginning to debate this week whether to fund a PSB review of police behaviour at Pride Fest.
Fortunately some people didn't wait for that and made complaints to the provincial body that investigates police, OIPRD.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2019, 09:59:06 am
I'm not sure of the context for your last comment, kimmy. Elaborate if you wish.

Just pointing out that there are (to paraphrase Mr Trump) "very fine people on both sides".    Whether it's trans activists (including Dr McKinnon) gloating and celebrating as Magdalen Berns passed away from brain cancer last week, or nailing a dead rat to the door and writing death threats on the Vancouver Rape Relief women's shelter, or hanging feminists in effigy, there are some truly awful people who feel that "trans rights" justifies anything they do.

I'm skeptical that the ones who ended up in a fight with the neo-Nazis were angels themselves.

It does seem that 'Faith' initially smeared all "LGBT" people, and then really zeroed in on Trans people.
There is something quite reprehensible about wishing death on other people, no matter the reason - including both 'Faith' and Dr MacKinnon, if so.

There is also something quite reprehensible about a Police Chief delaying police service to people who are under violent attack ... BECAUSE they are LGBTQ+ (not all Trans), blaming and arresting the victims instead of the violent homophobic perps, then using sexualized language on public radio to smear and degrade all homosexuals.
Homophobia is rampant in police forces, and clearly exposed here.

Homophobia still exists, but deliberately making an enemy of police forces wasn't the right way to fight it. "You can't build bridges by excluding people", as people have said since long before this Hamilton controversy.

 -k
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 18, 2019, 01:22:19 am
I'm skeptical that the ones who ended up in a fight with the neo-Nazis were angels themselves.
They did nothing wrong at Pride Fest that warranted the police withholding service and the harassment that day and in following days and months. While TransAnarchists initially held up the screen that hid the hate groups, they were joined by many others as they soon had to defend themselves from the violent attacks by the Christian homophobes, while police stood by. 

Quote

Homophobia still exists, but deliberately making an enemy of police forces wasn't the right way to fight it. "You can't build bridges by excluding people", as people have said since long before this Hamilton controversy.
 -k

They can't build bridges with homophobes at all.
And while the TransAnarchists likely never will be willing or able to, the Pride Fest organizing committee did try with the Mayor and Chief of Police, both of whom quickly regressed to having hissy fits and  smearing the entire LGBTQ+ community - because no Recruiting booth at Pride. 
Other police and politicians show more promise, but are blocked 'at the top'.

The problem at Pride Fest originated with the hate groups' harassing and trying to disrupt the festival, a fact that some like to ignore, preferring to vilify Pride Fest itself.
.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 18, 2019, 01:41:52 am
Homophobia is rampant but not so openly tolerated as in Hamilton.  And yet somehow there is no continuous media outrage.

Homophobia isn't tolerated in Hamilton any more than any other place.
The hate groups harassing Pride, and rallying at City Hall are mostly from out of town, and include militant and violent people from (to my knowledge) Toronto (Street Preachers), Kitchener, Oshawa, Barrie, etc.
They are confronted every time by many Hamiltonians who show up to oppose them.
Many more people, groups, businesses etc. have lobbied City Hall and Police about the injustice of police allowing violent attacks on Pride, and submitted formal complaints about that, and about police repeatedly appearing to defend and protect the hate groups.

And we have a few virulent homophobes in high places, blocking progress and inciting prejudice against the LGBTQ community.

The people of Hamilton generally do not tolerate homophobia. We have specific problems in high places that have created and escalated the situation. We hope OIPRD can help, because current Council, Police Services Board and Police command seem unmotivated and incompetent to do so.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 18, 2019, 04:36:32 am
Sorry, I meant to say as in this example in Hamilton, ie. with the police.

My point is that people go on and on about 'cancel culture' and 'outrage culture' and say that 'you can't say anything anymore' but these kinds of things still happen under our noses.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 18, 2019, 11:31:17 am
Sorry, I meant to say as in this example in Hamilton, ie. with the police.

My point is that people go on and on about 'cancel culture' and 'outrage culture' and say that 'you can't say anything anymore' but these kinds of things still happen under our noses.

Thank you.
Hamilton is fine.
The Chief of Police is not.
The Mayor is not.
And they are wreaking havoc.
Hamilton is stunned by their bigotry, perhaps in disbelief.

A perspective by Graham Crawford:
https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/9596058-addressing-hamilton-s-civic-crisis-of-hate/
Back in 1981, after I moved from Hamilton to Toronto, I stood on the front lines protesting for my rights as a gay man. I was a marshal at a number of subsequent demonstrations. It was my job to keep our people safe. I wasn't particularly brave, but I was determined to stand up to hate that I was now experiencing. One night, the police stood between hundreds of us and a group of less than a dozen thugs who were taunting us and throwing rocks at us. Then, the police charged. At us. Hitting the marshals first with their batons. I never forgot that moment.
...
We are in the midst of a dangerous civic crisis fuelled by the poor leadership of our civic institutions.


Violent mobs attacking gays, and then police attacking them violently too.
It still happens ... 40 years later.

Whoever thinks gay rights are won and done does not know the truth of the violence that still threatens LGBTQ+ people, sometimes and some places by police ... still.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 18, 2019, 08:02:38 pm
I didn't mean to malign the hammer.  I have close friends and immediate family there.  I have had some very special times... St. Joseph's Church, the hockey arena, Jack and Lois' Restaurant, Copps Colliseum, Reimel Road...
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 18, 2019, 11:17:35 pm
I didn't mean to malign the hammer.  I have close friends and immediate family there.  I have had some very special times... St. Joseph's Church, the hockey arena, Jack and Lois' Restaurant, Copps Colliseum, Reimel Road...
Lol
Guess you missed SuperCrawl.
No offence taken. Just clarifying.

The problem is, literally, roving hate groups from other towns. They aren't random, and the organization is just now clearer: 

https://scaffold.media/2019/09/18/jenny-hill-exposed-leader-of-anti-islam-group-pegida-is-chatham-kent-resident-janice-bultje/
Organizing under the alias “Jenny Hill”, Bultje has been responsible for headlining contentious and frequently violent monthly “Rallies against Radical Islam” in communities throughout southern Ontario. These events have often spiraled out of control as far-right groups such as Yellow Vests Canada, the Proud Boys, Soldiers of Odin, Wolves of Odin, Canadian Combat Coalition, Jewish Defence League and christian extremist group “the Servanthoods” have turned out to support Bultje’s message.

We've seen most of these groups rotating through Hamilton. "Servanthoods" were the violent ones at Pride Fest.
It's organized.
ETA
It's called PEGIDA, a virulent anti-Muslim/white supremacist homophobic group imported from Europe.
National/Ontario, BC AB MB NB + ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

https://pegidacanada.webs.com/

https://pegidacanada.webs.com/about
.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 21, 2019, 10:07:28 am
And in other Hamilton Police Service news ...

[Former undercover HPS officer] ... alleged his identity was intentionally revealed to a Hamilton crime family by a high-ranking police colleague and that other officers have ties to organized crime and the Hells Angels.

To summarize ... 'Some' police officers blew his cover and abandoned him to the mob. He survived to tell, blew the whistle on all of it, and he is suing HPS (& Police Services Board ... which includes the Mayor) for several million in damages.

** The City has failed to provide the court with a defense.**

Oh the intrigue and the dancing and wailing and gnashing ... !

And btw ... mob-police-politician collusion doesn't just happen in Hamilton. We are fortunate to have Paul Manning, the outsider, "the Englishman", who is brave enough to tell the truth.

And OIPRD investigations into police response to Hate groups at Pride Fest are ongoing.

Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: MH on September 22, 2019, 03:40:11 pm
Please tell us about Mr. Manning then.  ???
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on September 22, 2019, 09:08:59 pm
Please tell us about Mr. Manning then.  ???

Oops ... here's links
Latest ... City fails to file a defense to Manning's lawsuit ...
(Check under the buses for the City lawyers. Lol)
Local media Spec  CHTV CHML are pretty quiet. CBC Hamilton is reporting, and ...
https://nationalpost.com/news/hamilton-police-ignored-court-orders-brought-justice-into-disrepute-in-legal-battle-with-officer-alleging-police-corruption?fbclid=IwAR15l61uX2c7uFA6jFL9v6oAy5op4rfdrWss90nE0aBZQAPdeJBY-lwKwVs
The police board’s conduct was so egregious the service and its former chief were stripped of their right to continue defending the multi-million dollar lawsuit, according to a court ruling.

Paul Manning
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/headlines/once-undercover-hamilton-cop-alleges-police-didn-t-have-his-back-1.3570458
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 30, 2019, 12:11:01 pm
They sure have a bunch of violent nutbars in Hamilton for some reason.  There's a video of the scuffle with police in the article:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/mohawk-bernier-violent-clashes-1.5302342

"Violent clashes break out at Maxime Bernier event in Hamilton"

A peaceful protest outside an event for Maxime Bernier turned violent Sunday evening as supporters of the People's Party of Canada began to arrive and enter the venue.  A scuffle occurred in the crowd of around 100 about half an hour before the event — at Hamilton's Mohawk College — was scheduled to start. Two men from opposing sides of the protests were led away in handcuffs by police.
Title: Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
Post by: Granny on October 05, 2019, 04:10:05 pm
They sure have a bunch of violent nutbars in Hamilton for some reason.  There's a video of the scuffle with police in the article:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/mohawk-bernier-violent-clashes-1.5302342

"Violent clashes break out at Maxime Bernier event in Hamilton"

A peaceful protest outside an event for Maxime Bernier turned violent Sunday evening as supporters of the People's Party of Canada began to arrive and enter the venue.  A scuffle occurred in the crowd of around 100 about half an hour before the event — at Hamilton's Mohawk College — was scheduled to start. Two men from opposing sides of the protests were led away in handcuffs by police.


The "violent nutbars" are white supremacists not from Hamilton, including one of Bernier's 'security' thugs who, upon arriving with Bernier, spotted a man holding a sign that said "Hamilton Celebrates Inclusion". Bernier's thug said "No fucking way!", punched the man and ripped his sign.
Bernier just kept walking.