Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Goddess on June 18, 2019, 03:19:34 pm

Title: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Goddess on June 18, 2019, 03:19:34 pm
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/geoffrey-clarfield-the-united-nations-is-losing-staggering-sums-to-corruption-mismanagement-and-bad-decision-making


This is one (another) reason why I no longer care for Canada cozying up to the UN, nor going along with its "recommendations" for countries. In 2015 when Saudi Arabia was chosen to head the Human Rights panel and in 2017 again when it was chosen for the Women's Rights Commission - what a joke.  They no longer have any true concern for the countries they advise, it's just another old, rich, men-with-little-dingdongs club.

It no longer is doing what its supposed to be doing and I think it needs to go.

Quote
Every year, Canadian taxpayers contribute millions of dollars to the UN and there is no sign that this practice will end. Our government leaders ignore the mounting evidence of systemic UN corruption, examples of which can be found all over the media.

Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: ?Impact on June 18, 2019, 03:40:11 pm
This is one (another) reason why I no longer care for Canada cozying up to the UN

Agreed there is a lot of things wrong with the UN, but don't discount the vast amount of good things they do. From international standardization, and cooperation on things like air travel, shipping, and more recently road vehicles. They are involved in many humanitarian efforts like peacekeeping, disaster relief and health care. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on June 18, 2019, 03:50:16 pm
The Russians are maligning the UN on Facebook for useful idiots to parrot demands to disband it.

They would love to go back to the era of invasions being legitimate.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 18, 2019, 04:53:23 pm
The UN has a lot of cleaning up to do, but it needs serious reform not disbandment.  Especially for the UNSC and other security issues.  At the very least it gets all meaningful actors who may often be at odds with each other to the table to dialogue

Like the EU, the UN has expanded beyond its core mandate to include a lot of things that have turned into rubbish and need serious reform.  The EU should have the fat cut off of it, it which would have saved the UK from leaving.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Omni on June 18, 2019, 05:07:23 pm
The UN has a lot of cleaning up to do, but it needs serious reform not disbandment.  Especially for the UNSC and other security issues.  At the very least it gets all meaningful actors who may often be at odds with each other to the table to dialogue

Like the EU, the UN has expanded beyond its core mandate to include a lot of things that have turned into rubbish and need serious reform.  The EU should have the fat cut off of it, it which would have saved the UK from leaving.

It will be interesting to see if the UK actually leaves the EU.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Goddess on June 18, 2019, 05:11:52 pm
The UN has a lot of cleaning up to do, but it needs serious reform not disbandment. 


 I think sometimes organizations get just too corrupt, can't be cleaned up and should just be scrapped.  And I'm starting to feel that way with the UN.  Replace it with something else, then.

I'm a useful idiot to the Russians?  No one should talk about the corruption going on?  Please.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on June 18, 2019, 06:39:39 pm
Where did I say don't talk about corruption?
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Omni on June 18, 2019, 07:29:01 pm
I don't know what goes on in their office towers in NYC, but having worked for the UN on the ground as a contractor on a number of missions, including the one that was in place as the US began bombing Iraq, one difficulty I observed was trying to mesh groups of soldiers from the far corners of the earth into one cohesive force. And in Iraq, it didn't matter how compliant Saddam Hussein was, and how little WMD we found, Bush was going to bomb the place come hell or high water, so lets not blame the UN for that. Other places (Somalia, Angola, Haiti for instance) may not have achieved the desired goals, but much suffering was relieved by UN efforts during their presence. Such large and complex operations do have the potential to develop glitches, but as another poster said, "let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater".
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on June 18, 2019, 08:21:08 pm
The OP is an opinion column and the guy basically doesn't like the UN.  There are some examples listed, so it's not like he made it up.  But even then there's no argument for overarching corruption.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 18, 2019, 10:58:00 pm
I think sometimes organizations get just too corrupt, can't be cleaned up and should just be scrapped.  And I'm starting to feel that way with the UN.  Replace it with something else, then.

If the UN is to be scrapped then yes it should be replaced with something else, because it's core function is very important to international security, among other international efforts.

We need a place where representatives from all countries can be at the table together to talk about serious issues, instead of everyone being in "silos" or stuck in their own regional groups etc.  Collective security works, just not so great in its current form at the UNSC.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Granny on June 19, 2019, 01:24:53 am
The OP is an opinion column and the guy basically doesn't like the UN.  There are some examples listed, so it's not like he made it up.  But even then there's no argument for overarching corruption.

Well ... no more than our governments, perhaps.
I'm not in favour of replacing the UN..
That would be extremely costly, and likely end up in the same place.
Work with what we have to improve it where necessary. We need that international body.
And international law.

Security ... well ... when the profiteers stop invading countries to pillage their natural resources, I think security costs would go down a whole lot.
An humanitarian costs ...

Privatizing profits and socializing costs.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Goddess on June 19, 2019, 09:59:06 am
The OP is an opinion column and the guy basically doesn't like the UN. 

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Quote
There are some examples listed, so it's not like he made it up. 

Thanks, Captain Obvious.


Quote
But even then there's no argument for overarching corruption.

Duh.  It's not a thesis on corruption in the UN.  The point of it is to inform of the corruption going on and - if you so choose - you are welcome to investigate further. 
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: waldo on June 19, 2019, 10:58:12 am
70 ways the UN makes a difference:

(https://i.imgur.com/Gb4070Z.png)

so ya, be throwin' the baby out with the bathwater!
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on June 19, 2019, 12:45:46 pm
Thanks, Captain Obvious
 

Ok, I'll bite: what's not obvious is how you would jump from that article to 'the UN has to go"
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on June 19, 2019, 12:47:06 pm
Waldo.  Health isn't included - like mosquito nets.  Is that because it's a sister organization?
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: the_squid on June 19, 2019, 02:27:56 pm
Waldo.  Health isn't included - like mosquito nets.  Is that because it's a sister organization?

“Halting the spread of epidemics”
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: waldo on June 19, 2019, 05:44:30 pm
Waldo.  Health isn't included - like mosquito nets.  Is that because it's a sister organization?

following up on member squid's correct attachment; and yes, WHO - World Health Organization: "The World Health Organization is a specialized agency of the United Nations that is concerned with international public health."

67. Halting the Spread of Epidemics

The World Health Organization helped to stop the spread of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). In March 2003, it issued a global alert and emergency travel advisory, and its leadership helped to stop this new disease, which had the potential to become a worldwide epidemic. WHO investigates over 200 disease outbreaks each year, 15 to 20 of which require an international response. Some of the more prominent diseases for which WHO is leading the global response include Ebola, meningitis, yellow fever, cholera and influenza, including avian influenza.

as an aside, the list wasn't intended to be all-encompassing; it derives from the UN's 2015 70th anniversary: 70 Ways the UN Makes A Difference (https://www.un.org/un70/en/content/70ways/index.html)
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: segnosaur on July 09, 2019, 10:46:44 am
Agreed there is a lot of things wrong with the UN, but don't discount the vast amount of good things they do. From international standardization, and cooperation on things like air travel, shipping, and more recently road vehicles. They are involved in many humanitarian efforts like peacekeeping, disaster relief and health care. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
There may have been some good things that have been done under the banner of the U.N. I guess to me the question is, would the stuff still have gotten done had the U.N. not existed.

Yes, there have been several successful U.N. peacekeeping missions... but if the U.N. didn't exist, its possible that other organizations would step up to fulfill the mission. For example, peacekeeping in Somalia was largely done by the African Union (they were acting with the permission of the U.N. security council, but it was still largely an A.U. mission.)

And yes, there have been U.N. humanitarian missions. But plenty of international aid gets provided directly by donor countries, and without U.N., donor countries could increase the amount of direct aid.

Something like the World Health Organization does good work, but they could possibly be established as an independent organization (with a membership that reflects the current U.N.)
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on July 09, 2019, 11:02:07 am
Any other organization is sink to the same factors and pressures.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: segnosaur on July 09, 2019, 11:39:29 am
Any other organization is sink to the same factors and pressures.
Maybe, maybe not.

If (for example) the U.N. was broken up into independent organizations (such as the World Health Organization, the Civil Aviation Organization, etc.) then member states could contribute to their upkeep. (And there would likely be widespread support for them, since their activities are largely non-political, and there haven't been any major scandals, at least that I'm aware of.)

Organizations that are more scandal-prone, or more political in nature (such as UNESCO) might be forced to clean up their acts, since they wouldn't be under the U.N. banner.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: ?Impact on July 09, 2019, 01:18:36 pm
I guess to me the question is, would the stuff still have gotten done had the U.N. not existed.

Some of the stuff perhaps, but what you are really suggesting is a "free enterprise" model. We know they do some things well, but they tend to be very focused and leave huge wholes in coverage.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Granny on July 09, 2019, 06:32:48 pm
The UN Conventions are a huge achievement, aspirational documents perhaps, but international touchstones and principles nonetheless.

AN OVERVIEW OF RELEVANT CONVENTIONS & TREATIES RELATED TO CANADA  AND THE UNITED NATIONS
https://ccla.org/canada-the-un/
.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on July 09, 2019, 09:16:19 pm
Aaand Scheer says he will continue to pursue a security council seat  ;D
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: wilber on July 09, 2019, 09:33:25 pm
Aaand Scheer says he will continue to pursue a security council seat  ;D

Why?
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: Granny on July 09, 2019, 10:04:31 pm
Why?

Because his backers make money from wars.
.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: eyeball on July 10, 2019, 12:17:24 am
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/geoffrey-clarfield-the-united-nations-is-losing-staggering-sums-to-corruption-mismanagement-and-bad-decision-making


This is one (another) reason why I no longer care for Canada cozying up to the UN, nor going along with its "recommendations" for countries. In 2015 when Saudi Arabia was chosen to head the Human Rights panel and in 2017 again when it was chosen for the Women's Rights Commission - what a joke.  They no longer have any true concern for the countries they advise, it's just another old, rich, men-with-little-dingdongs club.

It no longer is doing what its supposed to be doing and I think it needs to go.
Before we fulfill those lucrative LAV contracts we have with with-the little-Saudi-dingdongs or after?
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: waldo on July 10, 2019, 12:53:17 am
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/geoffrey-clarfield-the-united-nations-is-losing-staggering-sums-to-corruption-mismanagement-and-bad-decision-making
.
.

It no longer is doing what its supposed to be doing and I think it needs to go.

your linked-to author is executive director of Mozuud, a Canadian non-profit organization that openly advocates on behalf of Israel. Look no further than (https://www.mozuud.org/cilr) ... by the by, since 1968, Israel has violated 32 UN resolutions that included condemnation or criticism of the Israeli governments' policies and actions. Is this what's called missing/pertinent perspective on the author/linked article?
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: MH on July 10, 2019, 07:20:29 am
I'm going to optimistically say that the seat brings 'influence'.

But Scheer has a significant but small cadre of UN conspiracy people voting for him.
Title: Re: The UN Needs To Go
Post by: eyeball on July 10, 2019, 04:14:43 pm
There may have been some good things that have been done under the banner of the U.N. I guess to me the question is, would the stuff still have gotten done had the U.N. not existed.

Yes, there have been several successful U.N. peacekeeping missions... but if the U.N. didn't exist, its possible that other organizations would step up to fulfill the mission. For example, peacekeeping in Somalia was largely done by the African Union (they were acting with the permission of the U.N. security council, but it was still largely an A.U. mission.)

And yes, there have been U.N. humanitarian missions. But plenty of international aid gets provided directly by donor countries, and without U.N., donor countries could increase the amount of direct aid.

Something like the World Health Organization does good work, but they could possibly be established as an independent organization (with a membership that reflects the current U.N.)
Anything is possible I suppose except the idea that Earth's nations should or even could unite seems virtually and increasingly verboten. Enough people simply hate and or fear the idea for it to ever get the traction it needs.  I suppose it's possible that a group of morally grounded nations with measurably verifiable integrity might coalesce around a civilized set of principled values but not these days, not even close.

I'm reminded of the question Dr. Ellie Arroway wanted to ask advanced aliens in the movie Contact - "How did you do it, how did your species survive it's adolescence?"