Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Granny on May 03, 2019, 07:42:45 pm

Title: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 03, 2019, 07:42:45 pm
Jewish-American activists beaten and detained by Israeli soldiers in West Bank
Members of Jewish-American tour party dragged into military vehicles, alongside Palestinian and Israeli activists, during anti-occupation action near Hebron
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jewish-american-activists-beaten-and-detained-israeli-soldiers-west-bank
Several Jewish-American activists were beaten and forcefully detained by the Israeli army alongside Palestinian and Israeli activists on Friday morning while working to repair a road linking Palestinian villages in the South Hebron Hills.

Those forced to the ground and dragged into military vehicles included several who appeared to be rabbis, and several elderly members of the group.

The activists were part of a delegation of 42 Jews from the US and Canada who are on a two-week tour of the West Bank organised by the US-based Center for Jewish Nonviolence (CJNV) to promote Jewish and Palestinian co-existence and to resist the ongoing Israeli military occupation.


There are Jewish voices in Canada and elsewhere who support Palestinian  anti-occupation action.

Independent Jewish Voices Canada:
https://ijvcanada.org/2018/ijv-member-reports-from-palestine-visit/
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 08:21:20 am
Do you realize that not all Jews support Israel.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 04, 2019, 08:51:31 am
Do you realize that not all Jews support Israel.

Yes. That's what this is about.
E.g., Canada should not trade in items manufactured in illegal Israeli settlements:
https://actionnetwork.org/letters/tell-senators-dont-trade-away-palestinian-human-rights/
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 05:01:17 pm
Yes. That's what this is about.
E.g., Canada should not trade in items manufactured in illegal Israeli settlements:
https://actionnetwork.org/letters/tell-senators-dont-trade-away-palestinian-human-rights/

I think Canada should trade with Israel, unconditionally.  Antisemitism fuels the hatred and boycotts of Israel. China has committed numerous human rights abuses in Tibet and it's people, yet nobody make too much of a big deal about it.

Same with Saudi Arabia, Russia, and the United States.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 04, 2019, 06:10:22 pm
I think Canada should trade with Israel, unconditionally.  Antisemitism fuels the hatred and boycotts of Israel. China has committed numerous human rights abuses in Tibet and it's people, yet nobody make too much of a big deal about it.

Same with Saudi Arabia.
I think there should be a voice for all perspectives.

https://www.facebook.com/IJVcanada/videos/427631188078451/
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on May 04, 2019, 06:14:21 pm
Whatever the reason, if you enter someone else's country to demonstrate and shit disturb, don't be surprised if they don't like it.

If you don't act like a guest, don't expect to be treated like one.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 04, 2019, 06:18:59 pm

Independent Jewish Voices CANADA.

They're guests in Palestinian territory.

Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 06:47:38 pm
Independent Jewish Voices CANADA.

They're guests in Palestinian territory.

Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.

One can say the same thing about 96% of the Canadian population.  We uprooted the Indigenous people to settle in Canada.  It happens everywhere, since the beginning of time.  One can easily make the argument that the Jews were in the Holy Land before any other current ethnic group, and were forced away from their homeland, only to finally return 75 years ago.

I am convinced the Israel Apartheid movement was born out of historical Antisemitism.  Keep in mind, nobody forced the Arab countries to declare War on Israel in 1967.  The Arabs gambled and lost, and Israel ended up gaining territory.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on May 04, 2019, 06:53:36 pm
Independent Jewish Voices CANADA.

They're guests in Palestinian territory.

Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.


No it isn’t and sometimes I don’t agree with Israel but if someone denies your very right to exist, why would you give a shit what they think.

Israel welcomes Jews from anywhere, apparently the same doesn’t apply to Palestinians in the Arab world. They are nothing more than a tool to their Arab neighbours.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: TimG on May 04, 2019, 08:27:51 pm
Canada is currently subject to bullying by China because we are engaging in actions which offend them.

Why should Canada engage in the same bullying tactics against Isreal?

Do we really want to live in a world where the biggest economies are free to bully smaller states any time the smaller states do something that offends them? I thought people wanted Canada to lead by example. Bullying smaller nations is not a good example.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 08:38:56 pm
I still recall about 5 years ago, after the Russian Government occupied the Crimea from the Ukraine.  The Crimea had technically been a part of the Ukraine throughout history, and since 1917 it was apart of the Ukrainian SSR, then since 1991 was a part of the Ukraine. We do not see the Russian community suffering anti-Russian sentiment due to this. In fact, the Winnipeg Russian community staged an ill-advised "Pro Russia Rally" at the Manitoba Legislature shortly after.

The problem with this move, is Winnipeg has a very large Ukrainian community, which outnumbers the Russian community 5 to 1.  It was a move the appeared to antagonize the Ukrainians. As a result, hundreds of people in the Ukrainian community came out to demonstrate against it, and the Police were called after the inevitable hostilities erupted.

source: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/fascist-remark-rankles-ukraine-supporters-258796671.html


With the Jewish community, they have always been targeted regardless of their political beliefs in all parts of the World, simply for being Jews. That is not the case for other ethnic communities.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 04, 2019, 09:21:13 pm
Support for Palestinians can be spoken here.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 09:27:48 pm
Support for Palestinians can be spoken here.

That's perfectly fine.  However, it's wrong to put the blame 100% on Israel. A little known fact is that Arab countries surrounding the West Bank and Gaza Strip had refused Palestinians asylum for decades.  It's a political game being played by the Arabs by not allowing these people to immigrate in hopes of a better life.  I'm not saying Israel is innocent, as they have made living conditions in the Occupied Territories among the worst in the World. However, if the Palestinians would cease to launch rockets, commit terrorist activities, and call for the destruction of the Jewish state, it would definitely help their cause.

Fighting a larger and more powerful enemy is almost sure to backfire.  It's fine to be critical of Israel for the way they treat Arabs as second class citizens, but when you consider what the Jews in Israel have been through for the last century, including repeated prompts from leaders calling for the destruction of Israel, and four wars that the Arabs have lost against the Jews, one wonders how other nations in that predicament would do anything different.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on May 04, 2019, 09:28:51 pm
Support for Palestinians can be spoken here.

Sure it can.

Around 50,000 Palestinians fled to Egypt during the 1956 and 1967 wars. They still can't have permanent residency or apply for refugee status.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 04, 2019, 09:41:15 pm
Honestly, from one article in the OP we're not going to know the whole story here.  What happens between Israel and Palestinians is complex and has al sorts of context.

The article basically says activists came to rebuilt Palestinian roads that were damaged, the Israeli military showed up and said you have 10 minutes to go away or we'll arrest you, the activists disobeyed them and so were arrested.  We don't know the context.  Is Israel just being dicks & trying to make Palestinian's lives a living hell?  Or were some using these village roads for terrorist operations or some other reason we don't know about?  Like we don't know, who the hell but Mossad knows WTF is going on.

IMO if you're an activist and want to help that's ok but when soldiers start showing up I'd take their threats seriously and GTFO and go help somewhere else, even if I didn't agree with it, who the hell wants to be a martyr?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: TimG on May 04, 2019, 09:59:03 pm
IMO if you're an activist and want to help that's ok but when soldiers start showing up I'd take their threats seriously and GTFO and go help somewhere else, even if I didn't agree with it, who the hell wants to be a martyr?
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 04, 2019, 10:19:25 pm
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.

I don't doubt that.  I mean OP article has the headline with alarming words "Jewish-American activists beaten and detained by Israeli soldiers in West Bank".  But I don't see any evidence from skimming the article of anyone beaten.  I mean the military used sound grenades, that's pretty non-violent.

Again from the article "Those forced to the ground and dragged into military vehicles included several who appeared to be rabbis and several elderly members of the group". They were arrested after a long warning, what did they expect?  A hug?  Rabbis and the elderly aren't immune to arrest just because.

The article is obviously written with a bias to cast the military as the "bad guys" and the arrested as victims. Writing a news article with a slant is poor journalism.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 10:23:15 pm
IMO if you're an activist and want to help that's ok but when soldiers start showing up I'd take their threats seriously and GTFO and go help somewhere else, even if I didn't agree with it, who the hell wants to be a martyr?

Can you imagine these protesters coming into the Tibet region of China, and protesting? Or going into the Crimea and protesting the Russian occupation? Or how about civilians landing in Guantanamo Bay, and holding demonstrations against the USA for their treatment of prisoners in the internment camps?

It would never happen.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 04, 2019, 10:26:51 pm
Palestinian activists often deliberately stage confrontations with Israeli soldiers to generate propaganda. I have seen complete videos that show Israeli soldiers acting completely professionally only have to it twisted into something nefarious by activist using selective edits.

The Palestinian groups like Hamas and Hezbollah often hold their bases, especially when planning attacks against Israel in strategic places, such as in Hospitals, Day Care centers, and other areas where vulnerable people are living. Its propaganda, so when Israel learns of terrorist activities, and launches strikes against the targets, it's inevitable that Hospitals, Schools, and Day Cares will suffer damage.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 05, 2019, 09:17:35 am
From an IJVCanada Facebook post:
"Yesterday I was arrested with sixteen others for helping Palestinians fill potholes in an old dirt track that is the only link to the outside world for isolated, endangered communities under constant violent attack by settlers. (Read more below.)

TODAY I AM WRITING TO ASK YOU TO DO THE SINGLE MOST CONCRETE THING that I think Canadians can at this time to support the Palestinian struggle: sign the Parliamentary petition to the Minister of National Revenue to revoke the charitable status of the Jewish National Fund Canada.

The JNF acquires land in Palestine for the exclusive use of Jews. It overtly and blatantly discriminates against Palestinians. It demolishes entire villages. And, it raises about $30 million per year in Canada as tax deductible donations.


The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing. I am one of four Canadians who jointly filed a formal, legal complaint with the CRA a year and half ago with 85 pages of documentation, mostly from the JNF's own literature. We have heard nothing even though we met personally with the director of enforcement of the charities division.

In January this year, Independent Jewish Voices launched a Parliamentary petition to the Minister of National Revenue to audit the JNF and revoke its charitable status if it is found in violation. The petition is open to be signed only until May 9, just before noon. After that, NDP Critic for National Revenue, MP Pierre-Luc Dussealt will submit the petition to Parliament and the government will be obliged to respond. The more signatures it has, the more seriously it will be taken.

We set a goal of 3,000 signatures and now are up to 2,459. We need your help in getting another 541 in the next five days. I think that is achievable if we work together.

First, would you please go to www.stopthejnf.ca and follow the links to sign the petition. It is simple and easy. And, it will make a difference. It's important.
...
The situation here in Palestine is dire and getting worse. I have been with people here day after day who are directly suffering in more ways than I can begin to tell you. It's all around. I imagine you know this already. We can put the brakes on the JNF. If we do, it will make a small difference, but it will also encourage Palestinians and others around the world to take other concrete steps. And, it will directly challenge the until-now-overwhelming dominance of the false Zionist narrative in Canadian politics. I hope you will sign the petition and circulate this widely.
...
David Mivasair"
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: TimG on May 05, 2019, 09:37:40 am
The JNF acquires land in Palestine for the exclusive use of Jews. It overtly and blatantly discriminates against Palestinians. It demolishes entire villages.
Given the history of anti-Israeli activists there is no reason to believe this claim has any connection to the truth.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 05, 2019, 03:54:12 pm
Given the history of anti-Israeli activists there is no reason to believe this claim has any connection to the truth.
It's not that difficult to check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

"T'ruah has expressed concerns that the JNF is not transparent about where their funds go and that the organization may be subsidizing projects in West Bank settlements.[62] The organization's chief executive later acknowledged that JNF does fund projects within settlements.[63] A review of their tax filing from 2014 led Rabbi Jill Jacobs of T'ruah to estimate that about $600,000 of the $27.2 million in grants by JNF-USA went to support settlements.[64]

Israeli lawmakers have sought, unsuccessfully, to allow the State Comptroller to examine the books of the organization to determine whether the group's funds were being spent appropriately.[65]
...
The JNF stipulates that only Jews can buy, mortgage or lease JNF land. Article 23 of the JNF lease states that the lessee must pay compensation to the JNF if this stipulation is violated."

And JNF is in trouble in Canada for funding the Israeli military too:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jnf-charity-donations-1.4949072

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 09, 2019, 11:25:22 am
Tell me Granny do you know why the JNF came about and why it does that? Of course not. Go find out why. In the middle East there is no separation of sharia law from governments which means no Jew in any Arab country is allowed to own land. Likewise no Jew in Europe was allowed to purchase land because of the prevailing laws that were influenced by Christian religion. Let me repeat that JEWS CAN NOT OWN LAND IN ANY NATION OF THE MIDDLE EAST.  They can not apply for citizenship in any Muslim country let alone in the Middle East. Jordan which was created as a Palestinain state illegally from 90% of Palestine by the British does not allow Jewish citizenship or any Jew to own land.

Interestingly though you find it unfair or single out the fact Israel had to establish the JNF as a direct response to this discrimination.

Tell me because you claim to be the progressive leftist not me, are you against affirmative action or other measures people take to counter discrmination against themselves?

Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle that out as if its unfair?

When all the homes and property were confiscated by Muslims and Christians from Jews where were you? Were you marching for Jews? Where was the world for thousands of years? Why did it take a holocaust to force the issue? Why is it  even after the holocaust the very nations that fought Nazi Germany protected its Nazis when they moved to the Middle East nations and ran their governments?

Where were you in 1948 when the British sided with neo Nazis to lead the Arab Alliance against Israel?

Where were you when righteous gentiles denounced what Britain did and volunteered to fight with Jews?

The fund you criticize came about to house and give a future to discriminated against Jews.

Maybe you need to take the time to find out the history of Israel and not from a trendy leftist perspective that ignores the time line and inter-connected events and simply takes up and assumes Jews came from nowhere for no reason other than to exploit innocent Palestinians. Jews were and are as much Palestinian as any Muslim who claims to  be one. They have every right to own land in Israel precisely because they are not allowed to own any in any Middle East country.

Do you challenge Sharia law nations? Do you even know what dhimmitude is?

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 09, 2019, 01:48:21 pm
Rue,
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
I think Independent Jewish Voices CANADA have a right to be heard too.

As for the Jewish National Fund funding illegal Israeli settlements and the Israeli military ...
The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 09, 2019, 04:07:22 pm
Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle thta out as if its unfair?

When all the homes and property were confiscated by Muslims and Christians from Jews where were you? Were you marching for Jews? Where was the world for thousands of years? Why did it take a holocaust to force the issue?

Agreed there is a terrible history of Jews (and others) being persecuted for millennia. The main turning point was WWII, and we must continue to speak out against persecution. That includes persecution of Jews, and persecution by Jews.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2019, 10:27:11 am
Rue,
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
I think Independent Jewish Voices CANADA have a right to be heard too.

As for the Jewish National Fund funding illegal Israeli settlements and the Israeli military ...
The JNF consistently violates the Canada Tax Act in substantive ways. That has been reported to the Canada Revenue Agency for forty years. The CRA has done nothing.

Is the discrimination against Palestinians by their Arab neighbours up for discussion as well? The only Arab country to ever integrate Palestinian refugees is Jordan.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 12, 2019, 01:56:27 pm
If Jews are guilty of ethnic cleaning, which they may be in a way, someone tell me how many Jews can be found in Saudi Arabia or Iran etc?  Besides in prisons or in some kind of diplomatic capacity, i believe the answer is around zero. 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 12, 2019, 02:16:50 pm
If Jews are guilty of ethnic cleaning, which they may be in a way, someone tell me how many Jews can be found in Saudi Arabia or Iran etc?  Besides in prisons or in some kind of diplomatic capacity, i believe the answer is around zero.

There are no Jews in Saudi Arabia.  Jews may even be banned from entering Saudi Arabia.  As for Iran, there are 15,000 Jews remaining, and they have been treated relatively well, compared to other Arab countries with very few Jews left (usually under 500 per country).
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 13, 2019, 12:34:14 am

Interestingly though you find it unfair or single out the fact Israel had to establish the JNF as a direct response to this discrimination.
I have only noted the concerns of IJV re the illegal actions of JNF actions in the illegal settlements, and in donating money raised here to the Israeli military in violation of Canadian law.
Quote
Why is it when a Jew liberates themselves from being treated unfairly and uses a state to protect its people and guarantee them a place to live when no one else won't, you sngle thta out as if its unfair?

Persecution of Jews was unfair.
Persecution of Palestinians by Israelis is also unfair.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 13, 2019, 09:30:05 am
The JNF is attacked by trendy left wingers as it is seen as a tool to colonize the West Bank by Israel.

The majority of accusations about JNF financing  are in regards to these projects:

1. Amphitheatre in Shilo – NIS 2 million
 
2. Infrastructure projects in Ariel – NIS 4.5 million
 
3. Central Park in Avnei Hefetz [near Tulkarem] – NIS 2.5 million
 
4. Promenade in Gush Ezion [south of Jerusalem]: NIS 250,000. Will be called “JNF Promenade.”
 
5. Promenade in Kfar Adumin [East of Jerusalem]: almost NIS 1.5 million
 
6. Bike Lane in the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council: NIS 1.7 million
 
7. Agriculture farm in Eitam: NIS 2.5 million
 
8. A park and observation point in Mitzpe Yericho [near Jericho]: NIS 600,000
 
9. Historical site in Rosh Tzurim [near Bethlehem]: NIS 400,000
 
10. Habanim Park in Hebron: NIS 700,000
 
11. Infrastructure work in Alon Moreh’s yeshiva [near Nablus]: NIS 300,000
 
12. Public ground in Shavei Shomron: NIS 350,000
 
13. Public ground in Har Bracha [near Nablus]: almost NIS 1 million
 
14. Kikar Park in Beit El [near Ramallah]: NIS 120,000

I will not debate with Granny on this thread what the legal issues are in regards to who owns what land on the West Bank. Clearly Granny like many believes no Israeli should be on the West Bank, period.

However the issues are far more complex than simply telling Israeli Jews go back to pre 1967 Israel. Its easy for Granny to dictate that and assume that.

She does not live next door to Hamas on one side in Gaza ad the PA and its terror cells on the West Bank on the other, or next door to Lebanon, Syria and Jordan nor does she know what that means. She only sees Palestinians as being under siege.

In her script she ignores the PA and Hamas are in fact in a declared state of war with Israel to remove it as a JEWISH state. Her script does not discuss that every day Israelis are attacked from Gaza even though they withdrew from Gaza years ago, including what is called arson kites that destry land and homes. Her script does not account for how the JNF is reforesting areas of pre 1967 Israel burned and destroyed by Hamas in its constant attacks.

Her script portrays one bad side, one good side in a conflict. It does not for one moment engage in context and try understand Israel does not live in a vacuum and if it leaves the West Bank the PA has said it will NEVER STOP until it retakes all of Israel, Jordan and the West bank and turns them into a Sharia Law Palestinian state. It also has defended terror attacks on Israeli civilians calling them reasonable in press releases.That is the same position as Hamas only Hamas openly calls for war and terror while  the PA plays media games. On the one hand it has what it claims are not terrorist political representatives who deny they are terrorists to the Western Press but then in their own Asembly or when speaking to their own citizens on radio or tv call for a war to destroy Israel. It also has terrorist cells which it claims are its "military" wing.

I doubt Granny knows why the JNF was started, what it actually finances and has financed. I doubt she has ever been to the Middle East to understand just how small the area of land is in dispute and so what the actual  terrorist security issues involved are or how the PA and Hamas are as dangerous to their own civilians and Jordan, Egypt and  Lebanon as they are to Israel.

What I do see are double standards from Granny. If she posts one sided articles with no comments, that is not trolling but if people disagree with her on this forum she says they are part of her experiment and trollers.

She claims being anti Israeli is not anti semitic but being anti Palestinian is anti Muslim.

She will discuss no doubt until doomsday Jews have no right to live on the West Bank but believe Muslims can live wherever they want.

Its only with Jews, Granny seems to have a standard where they can live.

As for the accusations the JNF funds the IDF, in fact what happened was prior to 2016 it funded a recreation centre and other recreation centres for youth to encourage fitness so when they were called up for mandatory reserve duty in the Armed Forces which includes 2 years mandatory service then being in the reserves until the age of 65, they would be ready.

The financing was indirect because it was for recreation but it was turned into a claim it financed the military. No JNF money was used on weapons of course or given to the military budget and anything remotely construed as military donations was ended in 2016 but hey why not flog that issue.

I get it- trendy leftists are incited by what they think is a black and white cause with bad Jewish Israelis  oppressors and good Palestinian victims.

The fact is the  definition of Palestinian the PA and Hamas use excludes Jews . The definition of Israeli includes Muslims and Christians, Bahaiis, Druze, Beduin Arabs, etc.

So let Granny try grasp the basic issue that the definition being advanced of a Palestinian and Palestinian rights is as discriminatory as anything she thinks she sees or believes about Israel and its based on religion and always has been.

At the pith and substance of the conflict is the Sharia Law belief that only Muslims can form countries and own land NOT Jews-something Granny will not acknowledge-and is why I said, she should go read about what dhimmitude is before she assumes she knows the place of Jews.

 Israel created itself as a Jewish state and created a national fund to finance its state as a direct response to being held down as inferiors. It had no choice. It was a direct response to being treated as an inferior people with no rights.

There are 3 areas on the West Bank. Area C is the only one "Jewish" Israelis are allowed. Arab i.e. MUSLIM  Israelis or non Jewish Palestinians can live in areas A or B which are exclusively reserved for non Jews and no Jew is allowed to live in. Oh you bet its separation. It came about precisely because Muslims would not live side by side with Jews and forced a war which established greenlines in 1967 which trendy leftists believe are the borders of Israel when the same international law they quote to call Israel's settlements on the West Bank illegal can not define that green line as legal because no Arab country to this day will recognize them.

Israel is the only country in the world surrounded by countries that do not recognize it or any borders for it, or its right to exist. She assumes the West Bank which has never been a county is a non Jewish one.


Granny's perspective comes from someone who takes for granted she can live wherever she wants and she is  part of  the majority religion.

Granny's perspective  as to Israel is as colonialist-imperialist-oppressive  as anything she accuses Israel of being. She still defines the conflict as one where its about Jews who don't know their place in the world.

I again repeat the solution to this conflict will come about with Israelis and Palestinians not outside know it all  patronizing elitists agitate tension and presume to tell either side what to do.

As well for someone who claims criticizing Israel is not about criticizing Jews why does Granny think when someone Jewish protests on the West Bank, their Jewishness is relevant?  Why is it she is so quick to insist this is not about Jews but her very headline on the thread made it about Jews?

She and many non Jews seem to think the moment a Jew as opposed to a non Jew criticizes Israel it has more meaning. Why? By doing that, she turns the discussion about Israeli state policies into a Jewish issue an yet creates another double standard.









Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 13, 2019, 11:35:06 am
I openly apologize to the forum for the length of some of my posts. I am the first to admit they are too long. I am not sure sometimes how to explain certain legal concepts raised without specific reference which gets lengthy.

meaningless! Claiming your extreme verbosity reflects upon your uncertainty in, "how to explain certain legal concepts"... is pure bullshyte! You were exposed as a fake lawyer when you failed to actually understand/speak to a profiled immigration themed discussion - that was you right - claiming to be an "immigration lawyer"?  ;D

like I said, you hide behind/within your verbosity. When I've taken the time to dissect your voluminous screeds into workable piecemeal points for targeted discussion/argument, you ignore those - you run away from them because you can't hide from them.

the only way your apology means anything is if you stop your purposeful extreme verbosity... stop your voluminous screeds... stop your Gish Gallop routine... start to write precisely and concisely and discuss/argue accordingly.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 13, 2019, 05:24:54 pm
The JNF is attacked by trendy left wingers as it is seen as a tool to colonize the West Bank by Israel.

Rue,

There is no reason why Israel is exempt from Canadian or International law.

There is every reason why Palestinians are equally deserving of the protection of law.

PETITION TO CANADIAN SENATE:
Don't trade away Palestinian rights
https://actionnetwork.org/letters/tell-senators-dont-trade-away-palestinian-human-rights?clear_id=true&source=email-cifta-may-have-passed-but-the-struggle-for-palestinian-human-rights-continues-2
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 14, 2019, 11:51:24 am
IJV plans to peacefully protest the annual Walk with Israel, Toronto.
Pro-Israel supporters claim 'anti-Semitism'.

This headline is biased and inflammatory: Nobody has claimed any intention to "disrupt" anything. Quite the opposite.
https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/protesters-plan-to-disrupt-the-annual-walk-with-israel-in-toronto
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 14, 2019, 02:16:55 pm
IJV plans to peacefully protest the annual Walk with Israel, Toronto.
Pro-Israel supporters claim 'anti-Semitism'.

This headline is biased and inflammatory: Nobody has claimed any intention to "disrupt" anything. Quite the opposite.
https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/protesters-plan-to-disrupt-the-annual-walk-with-israel-in-toronto

As if the Arabs are any  better....

Google "Shafiq Ades."

After 1947, over a million Jews were forced to flee Arab countries due to most Arab states implementing Nuremberg-type laws. Thousands of Jews were killed for being Jews. Eventually life became so intolerable for them that they had no choice but to immigrate to Israel or North America.

I've always found it funny how all these Israeli apartheid activists ignore this part of history. There is an irony in accusing Israel of "ethnic cleansing," when every single Arab state that had a significant Jewish population in 1947 legitimately committed ethnic cleansing. However, only Israel receives Worldwide condemnation. Because they are Jews and "should have perished in the Holocaust."
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 14, 2019, 02:55:46 pm
As if the Arabs are any  better....

Google "Shafiq Ades."

After 1947, over a million Jews were forced to flee Arab countries due to most Arab states implementing Nuremberg-type laws. Thousands of Jews were killed for being Jews. Eventually life became so intolerable for them that they had no choice but to immigrate to Israel or North America.

I've always found it funny how all these Israeli apartheid activists ignore this part of history. There is an irony in accusing Israel of "ethnic cleansing," when every single Arab state that had a significant Jewish population in 1947 legitimately committed ethnic cleansing. However, only Israel receives Worldwide condemnation. Because they are Jews and "should have perished in the Holocaust."

So like Rue, your answer is ...
'Somebody committed genocide against Jews so Israel can commit genocide against Palestinians.'

It doesn't say that in the Convention on Genocide. All perpetrators are accountable for their actions.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 14, 2019, 02:56:58 pm
When did I say anything about Genocide? If you think Israel is guilty of "genocide" towards the Palestinians, then I suggest you talk with a member of a community who was a legitimate victim of genocide, not an imaginary Genocide.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 14, 2019, 07:57:55 pm
An open letter to the Toronto Jewish Community regarding the UJA Walk with Israel
https://ijvcanada.org/2019/unconditional-support-for-israel-is-unconditional-support-for-injustice/


On Monday, May 20, members of the Toronto Jewish community will participate in the annual Walk with Israel, which is taking place in the Bathurst and Wilson area. Independent Jewish Voices, a national organization which advocates for human rights and peace with justice in Israel-Palestine, will once again be present with allies from other groups to demonstrate that the Jewish community in Canada is not unified in its attitudes towards the state of Israel.

Indeed, like tens of thousands of Jews worldwide, we oppose Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian lands and its regime of violence, intimidation and incarceration aimed at the Palestinian population of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. We challenge those who offer unconditional support for Israel to ask themselves if they would support the same violations of human rights and international law anywhere else in the world. We affirm that our criticism of Israel comes from an embrace of both Jewish and universal humanitarian values and has no relation whatsoever to antisemitism.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 14, 2019, 10:33:04 pm
IJV plans to peacefully protest the annual Walk with Israel, Toronto.
Pro-Israel supporters claim 'anti-Semitism'.

The walk for Israel doesn't mean unconditional support for Israel, it means support for Israel.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 05:33:59 pm


Please discuss the thread issue and not me.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 07:46:07 pm
Rue,

There is no reason why Israel is exempt from Canadian or International law.

There is every reason why Palestinians are equally deserving of the protection of law.

PETITION TO CANADIAN SENATE:
Don't trade away Palestinian rights
https://actionnetwork.org/letters/tell-senators-dont-trade-away-palestinian-human-rights?clear_id=true&source=email-cifta-may-have-passed-but-the-struggle-for-palestinian-human-rights-continues-2

Your response does not  deal with position I stated on this forum to you nor with the issue of the thread.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 15, 2019, 08:01:23 pm
Your response does not issue any comment or position I stated on this forum to you.
Your excuses do not exempt Israel from law.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 08:11:28 pm
So like Rue, your answer is ...
'Somebody committed genocide against Jews so Israel can commit genocide against Palestinians.'

It doesn't say that in the Convention on Genocide. All perpetrators are accountable for their actions.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx


Nowhere in this or any thread have I stated the above Granny. People can read my comments in 22 and 29.
I was addressing your double standard when analysing Israeli and Palestinian rights.

Granny I think your references to the activists being Jews is immaterial to the thread.


This response was edited by author.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 08:18:08 pm
Your excuses do not exempt Israel from law.

I have made no excuses for anything Granny. My comment was in direct response to the double standard you use when referencing Israeli and Palestinian rights. Stop misrepresenting what I stated. If you do not understand it ask. I said and say again before you criticize the JNF at least find out what it does.

Response edited by author.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 08:19:51 pm
IJV plans to peacefully protest the annual Walk with Israel, Toronto.
Pro-Israel supporters claim 'anti-Semitism'.

This headline is biased and inflammatory: Nobody has claimed any intention to "disrupt" anything. Quite the opposite.
https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/protesters-plan-to-disrupt-the-annual-walk-with-israel-in-toronto

All your posts on this thread could becsaid to engage biased inflammatory headlines as well as references. Your point?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 15, 2019, 08:21:37 pm
I have made no excuses for anything Granny. My comment was in direct response to the double standard you use when referencing Israeli and Palestinian rights. Stop misrepresenting what I stated. If you do not understand it ask. I said and say again before you criticize the JNF at least find out what it does. With due respect you are simply parroting scripts. Further do not usecme or any Jew or Israeli to excuse your comments by suggesting we engage in a holocaust double standard, are engaged in genocide of anyone or think about Palestinian rights as you attempt to portray us if we don't agree with you. Your assumptions are false and bigoted.
I reply to you only to repeat:
Israel is not exempt from the law, nor exempt from protest.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 08:31:33 pm
The walk for Israel doesn't mean unconditional support for Israel, it means support for Israel.

I think at this point the thread direction has been changed to a more general piss on anything to do with Israel or Jews that don't have Granny's views about Israel thread.. which explains the reference now to the walk and  some of her other comments.   
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 15, 2019, 08:46:52 pm
Agreed there is a terrible history of Jews (and others) being persecuted for millennia. The main turning point was WWII, and we must continue to speak out against persecution. That includes persecution of Jews, and persecution by Jews.

Thank you and please understand I would never claim nor would most if us let alone Jews and Israelis that this legacy is a reason to hurt any Palestinian or harm or degrade them.  We want them to find peace in a state next door to Israel with mutual respect.

The  two sides will find a solution. It will require a major shift but no one thought when Sadat and Begin met that would ever happen.

I edited this and my other comments to shorten them and avoid undue misunderstandings.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 09:36:50 am
I appreciate you stating your position so clearly and succinctly, Rue.

In this thread, I would like to be able to provide information from alternate viewpoints for respectful discussion.

In Canada, Jewish and Palestinian children (and all others) are often in the same classes, neighbourhoods, sports teams, etc. How would we discuss Israel-Palestine in front of them? How would we expect secondary school teenagers to present and discuss Israel-Palestine issues with each other?
With respect, certainly, allowing all views to be presented, no disparagement due to ethnicity, no bullying, no interrupting, no silencing ... etc.
We would not encourage, expect or allow Canadian children and youth to indulge in personal insult or degradation, but at least to respect existence of all viewpoints and their peers' right to speak.

I only propose that we set the same expectations for adult discussion here.

If as you said, Rue ...
"The  two sides will find a solution. It will require a major shift ..."
Then there must be safe spaces to hold discussions that respect all views and experiences, hopes and dreams.

Certainly any solution requires a willingness of both parties to comply with International law.

A two state solution once seemed to be possible, and may still be as you say, but there's been no progress and the viability of an armed-and-walled peace between two states with historical and deep animosities seems remote at present, and perhaps it always was an oxymoron?
 
I'm not dismissing the possibility of a two state solution yet, but another possibility must also be considered.
The return of Palestinian refugees is quite possible
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/return-palestinian-refugees-190513145900780.html

At this point, the only viable way forward that does not involve further violence and ethnic cleansing on either side is to re-arrange the current relationship between Palestinians and Israeli Jews on the basis of justice and equality as opposed to discrimination and dispossession.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 16, 2019, 10:06:54 am
The Arab states, from Morocco to Iran, pretty much expelled nearly all the Jews from their respective countries. I think it is only fair to boot the Palestinians out of the Holy Land and annex the West Bank outright. The Jews have been too nice in this conflict, and in turn, Arab countries have exploited this.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 16, 2019, 10:08:48 am
I appreciate you stating your position so clearly and succinctly, Rue.
In this thread, I would like to be able to provide information from alternate viewpoints for respectful discussion.
In Canada, Jewish and Palestinian children (and all others) are often in the same classes, neighbourhoods, sports teams, etc. How would we discuss Israel-Palestine in front of them? How would we expect teenagers to present and discuss Israel-Palestine issues with each other?

If as you said
"The  two sides will find a solution. It will require a major shift ..."
Then there must be safe spaces to hold discussions that respect all views and experiences, hopes and dreams.
A two state solution once seemed to be possible, but there's been no progress and the viability of an armed-and-walled peace between two states with historical and deep animosities seems remote at present, and perhaps it always was an oxymoron?
I'm not dismissing the possibility of a two state solution yet, but another possibility must also be considered.
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/return-palestinian-refugees-190513145900780.html

To answer your question myself and members of inter-faith and peace movements of Muslims and Jews do meet in safe places with youth and discuss these issues with mutual respect and recognition.

I have done it at churches, synagogues, mosques, schools, in two Bhuddist congregations, at a Unitarian Church, at a Bahaii Temple.

There is no such thing as a solution to a problem with two people that only acknowledges one of the parties. We all know that.

Granny in my responses to you if anything sounds like an undue personal reference to you it is not my intention. I think we both mean to discuss issues only and I do not think for a second
you are doing anything with malice or hatred towards Jews. I do think though with due respect to you, some people would use you for their own agenda which may not be as
noble.

900,000 Jews were displaced by Muslim countries not just about 480,000 Palestinians.  Some of the origins of systems put in place that you now find unfair came about because the world only recognized
Palestinian refugees not Jewish ones. That is not an excuse. It does explain though why the JNF or other Israeli organizations tried to address that imbalance.

In any solution hurting or harming anyone on either side clearly will not help. No I do not think Israel is perfect of course not. No I do not claim all its policies are correct of course not. I do though
worry that the current PA and Hamas feel no need to recognize a Jewish state of Israel and so that in turn fuels Israeli hardliners to say they have no other choice but to do what they do.

I do think unlike some and you, that there are another generation of Muslims and Jews in the Middle East and the world who will find a solution. Violence and terror may repeat, but there are good people out there on both sides tired of war and violence and terror.

You want a stereptype than think of some young 18 year old IDF soldier, placed on the West Bank who doesn't want to hurt anyone being attacked by extremists on both sides and is equally hated.

I got spit on by people on both sides of the debate. My colleagues did not have swagger. They were reluctant and modest, no swagger, grim, tired, intense, fed up. No heroes, just reluctant ordinary people
forced to endure the worst of human behavior and trying there best to preserve sanity and peace.

My bias Granny is way out there and it is a bias against terrorism and violence as a substitute for dialogue. Period. I have faith in a higher meaning in life that transcends all our failures. Maybe that is dumb but
when you put things in body bags you make a choice, to continue to live dead with no feeling, or continue to live refusing to believe you will have to keep putting body parts in bags. Its a choice people make. Neither is right or wrong. I can tell you Granny you get to a point where you pass rage and anger in the face of violence and terror and feel what is called dead-calm. You just zero in on the evil and hear, feel, see nothing else and your body has just one intense exact precise flash of a second moment to get rid of the terrorist or the terrorist kills others. There is no deep thought, no time to feel, think or anything and there is no regret after the fact if you are still alive and you do what you have to do to preserve life. No feeling. Nothing.

Terrorists are what the Muslims and Christians symbolize through the concept of Satan. This Satan is just human behavior inherent in all of us that can create hell. Its the other part of us that would have otherwise chosen to create heaven. I have seen two brothers from the exact same conditions and one go dark the other light, one a terrorist the other a doctor sworn to avow terror and preserve life. Freedom of choice happens in the darkest of situations by people. We have that choice.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 16, 2019, 10:21:56 am
The Arab states, from Morocco to Iran, pretty much expelled nearly all the Jews from their respective countries. I think it is only fair to boot the Palestinians out of the Holy Land and annex the West Bank outright. The Jews have been too nice in this conflict, and in turn, Arab countries have exploited this.

 ;D hey member Rue - is your agreement tag to the above post... your "finding a solution... one that requires a major shift"? Oh my! Might makes right, hey!
The  two sides will find a solution. It will require a major shift...
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 10:48:17 am
To answer your question myself and members of inter-faith and peace movements of Muslims and Jews do meet in safe places with youth and discuss these issues with mutual respect and recognition.

I have done it at churches, synagogues, mosques, schools, in two Bhuddist congregations, at a Unitarian Church, at a Bahaii Temple.

There is no such thing as a solution to a problem with two people that only acknowledges one of the parties. We all know that.
Quote
I do think unlike some and you, that there are another generation of Muslims and Jews in the Middle East and the world who will find a solution. Violence and terror may repeat, but there are good people out there on both sides tired of war and violence and terror.

I'm counting on that too.
In moving toward solutions, there must  be committment to the common standard provided by International law, without excuses on either side.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 16, 2019, 03:03:33 pm
I'm counting on that too.
In moving toward solutions, there must  be committment to the common standard provided by International law, without excuses on either side.

I would not hold your breath. Groups have been fighting over the Holy Land since the beginning of time.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on May 17, 2019, 05:47:07 am
I would not hold your breath. Groups have been fighting over the Holy Land since the beginning of time.

I'm pretty sure that the territory was unclaimed at the point of the big bang.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 17, 2019, 09:40:23 am
I'm pretty sure that the territory was unclaimed at the point of the big bang.

Yes. If it had been part of a sovereign state, the international legal issues would be different than land never part of any nation.

In international law you can not "occupy" land that was never part of another sovereign state. The term "occupied" has been changed  in the dispute between Israel and the West Bank to mean a "legal" occupation when in fact it is a physical occupation not a legal one. There is a significant legal difference in international law.

Then again the definition of refugee was also changed so that it means one thing for all refugees of the world and another for people who self proclaim as Palestinians.

A lot of terminology has been redefined to suit this complex issue by people who do not necessarily understand the international legal ramifications.

For example, many people think UN Resolutions are legally binding when they are not.

Many people have no idea Jordan was created illegally by Britain as a  Jewish free Palestinian state  with 90% of land that was supposed to be shared equally by Jews and Muslims for two states.

Many people are unaware that there are Jews in Hebron on the West Bank who have lived there uninterrupted since the Biblical days and have as much legal rights to the land as any "Palestinian" and some of those Jews don't even recognize Israel as  state and the PA says they will expel them if the PA becomes a state.

Many people are unaware that not all land Israeli settlers on the Wwst Bank live on was "stolen" or "purchased by fraudulent deals"  but was purchased freely from Palestinians.

Many people are unaware that at this time a Palestinian is defined as any non Jew, who claims to be a Palestinian and there is no test for what a Palestinian is.

Most people are unaware that the vast majority of people who call themselves  a Palestinian are descended from people who were not born in Palestine but moved there from outside Palestine no differently than Jews in Israel or the West Bank.

Most people are unaware there are more land disputes between Palestinians than there are between Palestinians and Israeli settlers.

Most people are unaware that Yasir Arafat blew up the Land Titles office on the West Bank to cover up that the vast majority of people claiming l and title were Muslims who moved to the West Bank from outside Palestine and squatted then stole the land from actual Palestinians.

Most people are unaware that the actual natives of the West Bank who were Muslim had no land title-they obtained their ownership by physical occupation and the land was in the title of Turks from the Ottoman Empire given the land title by the head of the Ottoman Empire in exchange for
assuring that the Palestinians who lived on their land, paid taxes and joined their armies. In fact the land titles were given to friends of the leader of Turkey the way land was given to Dukes and Baros of the King of England and Palestinians were serfs with no rights other than to eat enough food so they could be of service to pay taxes and serve in wars.

Most people are unaware that the Assyrian Empire was mostly where Lebanon and Syria is today and that where Israel, Jordan and the West Bank are originally was called the Jewish states of  Judea and Somaria, and the word Palestine is a Greek word and did not refer to a state but a physical geographic region where these former Jewish states were.

Most people do not know the Islamic empires proceeded not preceded the Jewish Empires.

Most people do not know the difference between Beduin Arabs, the aboriginal descendans of people who lived on the Arabian Peninsula and today's "Arabs" which was a word redefined by Gamel Nasser in Egypt to mean anyone who speaks Arabic in an Arabic speaking nation of the Middle East.

Most people have no idea that the true descendants of the Arabs today are the Beduins no one else.

Most people have no idea that all Jews and many but not al  Musims of the Middle East like some but not all Christians could have their blood type traced back to people who lived in or near the Arabian Peninsula and therefore religion is not necessarily an accurate way to define semitic or aboriginal heritage to the land.

Most people have no idea there is no reference to Jerusalem in the Koran and that the Mosque built in Jerusalem now referred to as the third most holy site of Muslims was never defined that way in the Koran and was built directly on top of the former Temple for Jews in Jerusalem deliberately as a political statement of disrespect.

Most people are unaware that when the Muslims occupied Jerusalem, they would chip off and sell parts of Jewish holy sites as souvenirs to tourists and the Jordanian Army that occupied Jerusalem up until 1967 would openly deficate and urinate on Jewish sites to taunt Jews.

Most people are unaware that East Jerusalem considered the land of Muslim Palestinians was actually occupied by as many if not more Jews who were then  evicted and had their synagues burned down and their homes confiscated.

Most people are unaware of the history of the origins of toda's Palestinian movement and that its original leaders were financed and controlled by the Nazis and/or British to divide and conquer Jews and Muslims from getting along and then during WW2 willingly joined the Nazi alliance, then joined wirh Britain and France again immediately after WW2 in the war of 1948 to rid Palestine of Jews.

Most people are unaware that all Arab states and Iran today were created by Britain and France.

Most people are unaware Israel is the only state of the Middle East not created by Britain and France.

Most people are unaware that in 1948 when the Arab nations tried to invade Palestine to rid it of Jews, they were led by ex Nazi military who had settled in Syria, Iraq and Egypt and the British military and General Allenby and his senior officers who led the Arab Legion in its attack against Israel.

Most people are unaware regular Royal Air Force pilots flew the Egyptian Air Force planes in the 1948 war.

Most people are unaware that the 1948 war which led to Israel's creation only came about because the Arab world refused any notion of Jews owning any state in the Middle East because they believe and still do to this  day that under Sharia Law, no Jew can own land, have a nation, or have the same legal rights as Muslims.

Most people are unaware that more Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab nations than any Muslims from Israel.

Most people are unaware that the Muslims who did not "flee" Israel in 1948 ended up Israeli citizens with all the legal rights in Israel no Jew or non Muslim has ever had in Sharia law nations of the Middle East and not one of these Muslim Israelis has moved to a Muslim country.

Most people are unaware the Gaza Strip was in fact an open air prison created by Gamel Nasser to contain Muslims who fled Israel in 1948 because Nasser did not want them in Egypt.

Most people are unaware that Palestinian refugees were in fact placed in refugee camps by the Aran council of nations as hostages ad the Arab council of nations said they would be held there as hostages and a warning to the world that until Israel was removed as a Jewish state, these people and their descendants would be held as a reminder of the injustice of a Jewish state.

Most people are unaware that Israel and the Muslim world agreed to two states side by side and the British and French sabotaged that agreement by lying to Prince Faisal after the agreement was signed telling him the Jews would break the deal. Faisal fell for the false statement, ripped up te agreement and the very next day was arrested. The British and French then awarded Syria and Lebanon to France as colonies and Britain created Jordan and placed the son of Faisal on the throne to placate him.

Most people do not know Britain creates Jordan as a Jewish free Palestinian state illegally from 90% of land that was supposed to be divided equally between Jews and Muslims.

Most people have no idea Saudi Arabia was invented by Britain for the remaining family of Faisal to placate him.

Most people are unaware Iran as it is known today was created by the British as a colony and Iranians are Persians not Arabs and historically Persians and Arabs (Shiite and Sunni Muslims) have major religious differences that have led to wars.

Most people are unaware that Muslims have had and continue to have more wars between themselves then they have ever had with Israel or Jews and more Muslims in the Middle East have died by wars and terrorist attacks by fellow Muslims than any Jew or Israeli.

Most people are unaware that Bahaiis, Berbers, Kurds, Coptic Christians have also been the targets of mass killings and discrimination by Musim nations of the Middle East as well as Jews for the same reasons of religion.

Most people have no idea what Sharia law is or what dhimmitude means or what the word "khafir" means.

Most people have no idea about the history of Jews, Bahaiis, Berbers, Druze, Kurds, Beduin Arabs, Coptic Christians.

Most people are unaware Muslims in what is now Jordan were not anti Jewish state and in fact donated land to Jews to start collective farms after WW2.

Most people are unaware that the Mullah of Jerusalem who led the original Palestinian nationalist movement and all the Palestinian leaders up until 1967 ridiculed the notion of a Palestinian state or the concept of a Palestinian nationality and only coined the term when Arafat failed to kill King Hussein of Jordan and was expelled from the West Bank and forced to live in Tunisia.

Most people are unaware that to this day the Palestinian Authority is made up of a loose network of cells each with its own leader and the only thing they have in common is their belief Israel should not exist as a Jewish state.

Most people are unaware that the current Palestinian Authority leader Abbas has redirected Palestinian aid funds to his own personal bank accounts in Switzerland and received a Ph.d from the University of Moscow for his thesis that the holocaust was invented by Jews to take over the Middle East and he stood up in his Assembly giving a standing ovation and screaming death to Israel.

Most people are unaware Mr. Abbas in an interview with the West defended terrorism as a legitimate political expression and has stated repeatedly he will never recognize Israel as a state unless it is a majority Muslim state.

Most people are unaware his position is that anyone one Muslim and not Jewish who identifies as Palestinian is, and ahould be given automatic land title and citizenship in Israel and then that Israel should turn itself into a Sharia law state, and along with Jordan and the West Bank become on Palestinian sharia law state.

Hamas feels the exact same way only feels this Palestinian state would be the first step in a larger Muslim sharia law state for all of the Middle East and then a building block to achieve a world Muslim state because this is what the Koran says.

Most people are unaware Hamas was financed by both Saudi Arabia and Iran and now by Iran.

Most people are unaware that Hezbollah in Lebanon said it was only armed because Israel was in Southern Lebanon and the moment they left Southern Lebanon they would disband and stop attacking Israel. Then when Israel left, Hezbollah refused to disarm and recommenced attacks on Israel and now serve as a proxy army that occupies most of Lebanon and is in a declared state of terrorist war to rid Israel.

Most people are unaware that Hamas and Hezbollah are made up of non Palestinian Muslims who actually consider Palestinian Muslims inferior to Egyptian, Syrian or Lebanese Muslims.

Most people are unaware that most Israelis do not define their Jewish identity as a religious one and like the Muslims  of the Middle East are of every skin colour and physical characteristic.

Most people are unaware that Mitzrahi or Tsfardic Jews speak Arabic and come from or are descended from Jews of Ara countries, Spain and Portugal and the Ashkenazi Jew are descended from the Jews that migrated to Europe.

Most people are unaware there are Felashi (Ethiopian) Jews, African Jews, Jews in India (Mumbai) and China. Most people are unaware Marco Polo was Jewish and the origins of Jews in China and India come from his travels there.

Most people are unaware that during the 20's to the end of WW2, Shanghai, China was a refuge for Jews escaping Nazi and European persecution and that the Jews of India form a large population in Mumbai and have lived peacefully there for thousands of years.

Most people are unaware that the ancestors of the Jews and Muslims probably come from the same people that created Hinduism, then later Zoroastrianism and other religions before Abraham who was Persian was born.

Most people do not understand Judaism as a religion took thousands of years to form and is a fluid non static religion and the Talmud is a set of rules designed to assure constant debate so that Judaism continually changes in meaning.

Most Christians and Muslims are unaware there is no translation of the Torah or Old Testament that has only one meaning and that the average sentence in the Torah can have over 250 interpretations.

Most people are unaware the Kabal is a book of teachings which is remarkanly similar in content to what is taught in Taoism, Bhuddism, Hinduism nad Siekhism and by certain Muslim sects.

Most people are unaware that the two sons of Abraham Jacob and Ishmael were the original procreators of todays Jews and Muslms and therefore all Jews and Muslims come from the same father so are technically related.

Most people are unaware Jesus was a practicing Jew and died a practicing Jew and the original Agnostic documents referring to Jesus suggest he travelled and lived in India where he would have learned Hinduism and Bhuddism and mixed it with Jewish theories and brought back his knowledge of medicine to place into Judaism the healing component.

Most people are unaware Jesus may be a composite of more than one Jewish leader and introduced medicine to the Middle East, i.e., the concept that germs enter the feet and through cuts and lesions, that sunlight can help dry up and therefore aid skin regeneration-that leprosy after a certain stage was not contagious, that there was a direct co-relation between food and health and that fish contained certain properties that addressed many of the illnesses prevalent in the Middle East.

Most people ar unaware that there is no direct words from Jesus ever written anywhere and any Agnostic reference to Jesus never referred to him calling himself the son of God but would have referred to himself as trying to provide a concept of how people should act with each other and in that sense all people were messiahs born to save the world.

Most people are unaware this concept would come from the Talmud which says one heals the world with good deeds and in so doing spreads the energy or existence of God, or damages the world and in so doing blocks the energy of God by doing selfish or evil things.

Most people are unaware that Islam has passages that say the same thing.

Most people are unaware that the schism between Judaism and Christianity in the early days did not exist an Jews and Christians were the same people.

Most people are unaware that the gospels of Jesus is second hand versions of what people claim Jesus said and the schism between Judaism and Christianity only began after King Constantine ordered Christian teachings merged with Pagan teachings to prevent a civil war between Pagans and Christians in Rome.

Most people are unaware that most of Israel's government buildings and its Parliament (Knesset) are on land in Jerusalem on land whose legal titles belong to Christian churches which Israel recognizes and pays rent to the churches for but the PA and Hamas claim they will never recognize as legitimate land titles as Christians like Jews are dhimmi and can not own land.

Most people are unaware that land title issues in Jerusalem and on the West Bank deal with international law, Vatican or Canon law,  Israeli federal and provincial laws, Jordana federal and municipal laws, and Palestinian laws as well as Sharia law and so to even remotely suggest settling land titles would be easy is absurd.

Most people are unaware that many ultra-Orthodox Jews do not believe Israel can exist until the Messiah first comes back and so is blasphemy.

Many people are unaware that there are as many Christian Zionists as there are Jewish ones.

Many people are unaware the Bahaiis have their head Temple in Israel and because of that are persecuted in Iran and also are persecuted in Iran as false Muslims for other reasons.

Most people are unaware that with the exception of Saudi Arabia no Arab nation has ever provided financial aid to Palestinian Refugees and the vast majority of it comes from the US, then the EEC.

Most people are unaware that Israel contrary to popular belief has many political opinions, religions and is the only democratic state of the Middle East where non Jews have elected politicians to the Parliament, write openly in the press and speak openly on tv and on the radio about their criticisms of Israel, have Muslim Judges, police and that some of the most loyal and bravest Israeli soldiers were and are Beduin Arabs, Druze, Muslims.

Most people are unaware of the fact that in reality, the turmoil of the Middle East contains thousands of conflicts of which the Palestinian one, is but one.

Most people are unaware that the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians have more in common and understand each other and live side by side each other better than anyone on this forum claiming to understand Palestinians.

Most people are unaware of how small the land is in dispute, that water is the no.1 issue causing disputes between everyone and is often portrayed as a dispute of Jews and Palestinians.

Most people are also unaware of the environmental issues of the West Bank, Israel, Jordan and Gaza-Sinai that Israelis and Palestinians have been able to work with each other on when outside agitators do not intervene.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 17, 2019, 11:25:39 am
I was just about to see if you were out and about with the word counter. I would think the "most people" assumptions would set some sort of broken "record".

(https://i.imgur.com/IguDrQW.png)

geezaz - over 3100 words! The "grinning black man", as member Rue called him, wasn't available to support the word counter... apparently he has his car in the shop right now!

this is the same guy who wrote:
I openly apologize to the forum for the length of some of my posts. I am the first to admit they are too long.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 04:41:22 pm
Historical excuses are irrelevant.
Israel is not exempt from International law.
Israel is not 'excused' from its Crimes against Humanity.
If you can't post something reasonable here, start your own thread and post there. GTFOutta mine.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 17, 2019, 04:43:58 pm
Historical excuses are irrelevant.
Israel is not exempt from International law.
Israel is not 'excused' from its Crimes against Humanity.

Neither is any other country. Even Canada has our own skeletons in our closet.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 17, 2019, 06:02:25 pm
Historical excuses are irrelevant.
Israel is not exempt from International law.
Israel is not 'excused' from its Crimes against Humanity.
If you can't post something reasonable here, start your own thread and post there. GTFOutta mine.


Ridiculous. This is a political forum. You don't own any thread nor do you get to control what people think. Drink some prune juice Granny.


If you want to use this thread to piss and rant and make accusations against Israel and  inter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies, expect to be challenged.

As well it is assinine to discuss the Middle East conflict unless you are prepared to present it in proper context.


In any event you show disrespect for people who disagree with you and make it clear you only want people who agree with your biases to respond to you.


Why? Are you that insecure of people who do not think or like you or agree with you?


Read your above words. You sure as hell for someone who claims to advocate tolerance and justice sound like an intolerant close minded bigot.


If I did not know any better I would think you vote Liberal.



Viva Che Guervara


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 06:39:55 pm
...inyter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies, expect
to be challenged.

Link/quote?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 18, 2019, 09:06:14 am
Link/quote?

1-Your first post on May 3
Jewish-American activists beaten and detained by Israeli soldiers in West Bank
The activists were part of a delegation of 42 Jews from the US and Canada
There are Jewish voices in Canada and elsewhere….

2-Your post on May 4
Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.

3-your response May 14
So like Rue, your answer is ...
'Somebody committed genocide against Jews so Israel can commit genocide against Palestinians.'

5-Another response by you May 14
On Monday, May 20, members of the Toronto Jewish community will participate in the annual Walk with Israel, which is taking place in the Bathurst and Wilson area.

Indeed, like tens of thousands of Jews worldwide, we oppose Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian lands

Your comments in 1 and 5 above, made it an issue about Jews not Israeli state policies. The religion or ethnicity of the people you refer to is not relevant-you made it relevant. Their support of the existence of Israel has nothing to do with the thread topic.  By linking the two you made it about Jews and ANY support for Israel.

Your use of Jews is known as the device called: good Jew bad Jew
http://www.tomatobubble.com/id631.html

Your comment in 2 above was introduced by you….no one suggested your comments were anti-semitic and no one had said criticism of Israel was anti-semitic, you chose to raise that argument right away in the thread. However since you raised the issue, yes using the device of good Jew/bad Jew can be an anti-semitic device. Your responses mixed all  Jews with Israeli state policies in your criticisms.
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/04/playing-good-jew-bad-jew-to.html

Your comment in 3  was a complete misrepresentation of what either I or Vid stated and is known as the device called “holocaust inversion”:
http://www.thomaswictor.com/holocaust-inversion/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_inversion

https://spme.org/anti-semitism/holocaust-inversion/16885/

Your mixing of Jews and Israeli state policies in your discussion incited Impact to state in a response about how JEWS have a moral responsibility not to persecute. He felt the need to single Jews out. Do you think your comments incited his response? Do you think all humans have a moral responsibility not to persecute including Palestinians or should we use this thread to focus on Jews who are Israeli and Jews who support Israel’s existence. Why?  Do you consider Israeli state policies on the West Bank a problem with Jews?

Clearly you have a problem understanding that not all Israelis who support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are Jews. You seem to think if a Jew has a disagreement with an Israeli state policy their Jewishness should be raised. Why? I asked you and you ignored me. 

I can only conclude you have a problem understanding that not all Israeli Jews or non Israeli Jews and for that matter any non Jewish Israeli or non Jewish non Israeli who supports Israel’s right to existence do not necessarily support certain Israeli policies, or if they do, their religion or ethnicity may not be material to why they support these policies.

Here maybe this will  better explain it for you:
https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/what-is-anti-israel-anti-semitic-anti-zionist
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 18, 2019, 08:09:49 pm
...inyter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies,
Steaming pile of crap, Rue.
I have not done that.

Please stop word bombing with false accusations.

You make it impossible for supporters of Palestinians to discuss Palestinian issues respectfully.

I post information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada because they have a right to speak up, and do so eloquently.
 
Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread.

You're tired old tactic of accusing me of anti-Semitism is .... zzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 19, 2019, 08:06:56 am
...inyter-change the word Jew with Israeli state policies,
Steaming pile of crap, Rue.
I have not done that.

Please stop word bombing with false accusations.

You make it impossible for supporters of Palestinians to discuss Palestinian issues respectfully.

I post information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada because they have a right to speak up, and do so eloquently.
 
Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread.

You're tired old tactic of accusing me of anti-Semitism is .... zzzzzzzzzz

I did not "word bomb" You asked me to provide your words, so I did.  Take ownership of them. 

Your response now shows what? You make the statement " Opposing voices are to be respected in this thread."  but you again show disrespect to anyone who disagrees with you not just me on this thread.

That Granny speaks loudly. If you commence a thread to state one sided, uncontested subjective opinions and make references to Jews that have nothing to do with the supposed issue you raised in the thread that deals with Israeli state policies, you will be challenged by me and others. You don't own the thread nor are your repeated attempts to try control what opinions people can have when responding to you, are nonsensical.

May I also point out interestingly that so far you are the only one referring to yourself as an anti-Semite.


The Jewish identity of the activists was immaterial to their views but you  chose to make their being Jewish relevant. You also chose to raise an issue about Jews in a charity walk that has nothing to do with the thread.


Your comments attacking Jews for walking in a charity walk has nothing to do with the thread.

Here is what I am asking you to consider when engaging in such threads:

source:https://honestreporting.com/how-criticize-israel-without-being-antisemitic/

"While criticism of Israel and advocacy for Israel is not inherently antisemitic, much of it departs from the realm of fair comment and crosses the boundary into antisemitism. But, when this is pointed out, Jews are often accused of ‘playing the antisemitism card’. This makes light of bigotry, and undermines the ability to separate between legitimate criticism and illegitimate smears. In the absence of a single universally accepted definition of antisemitism, perhaps this list of things to remember will help people who want to fairly criticize Israel without falling into antisemitic canards or tropes.

1. Israel, and Israelis, exist

Israel is not a theoretical model; there are real people involved. Many of us desperately want peace and security. Whatever we say or believe, our human rights are not conditional. We aren’t an abstract idea, don’t suggest putting thousands or millions of real lives at risk.

2. Jews are not the same as Israel

Jews have a wide range of opinions, and many Jews around the world aren’t really aware of what’s going on in Israel. If individual or Catholics in general shouldn’t be attacked for the actions or positions of the Vatican, and if most people agree that Muslims should not held responsible for terrorism, then Jews should not be conflated with Israel. Don’t blame “Jews” for Israeli policies you don’t like.

3. Criticize specific policies

Vague assertions of Israeli control or evildoing echo centuries of vague assertions of Jewish control and mendaciousness. Both are smears, putting Jews and Israelis on the defensive against pernicious claims that are hard to pin down. If you want to honestly criticize Israel, do so by addressing specific issues and acts."

4. Make a fair attempt to understand Israeli policies

If you have an issue with Israeli policy, take the time to understand it and why it was implemented. For example, Israel’s security barrier. Where is it? Why was it placed there? What legal processes did it go through? What were the results on both sides?

5. Speak from a place of knowledge, accuracy and context

Whether Israel or another topic, you should never debate when unfamiliar with the basics. Take a moment to look up what’s going on, read a wide variety of sources, understand different perspectives, and make sure you get your facts right. Check out the history – it’s rarely one-sided. When you speak from ignorance you make grave errors and things seem overly simple.

6. Work towards solutions, not Israel’s destruction

If you seek to avoid claims of being antisemitic, avoid advocating for the destruction of the state home to the world’s largest population of Jews. (Refer to tip #1.) Determine whether your words feed into the incessant blaming of Israel or unreasonable demands that Israelis put themselves at risk, or whether they help advance the cause of peace by suggesting just solutions and realistic changes.

7. Recognize the conflict is not one-sided

Nothing is black and white. Imagining one party to be uniformly evil and the other as helpless victims is simplistic and unhelpful. Both Israelis and Palestinians have experienced pain. Both desire self determination. Wanting peace and security for Palestinians shouldn’t negate wanting it for Israelis Even if you truly believe that Israel is responsible for the situation, acting as if Israelis have no legitimate concerns and fears denies reality and characterizes Israelis as unreasonable, uniformly warmongering, and feeds into concerted attempts to destroy Israel.

8. Avoid known racist tropes when speaking of Israel or Jews

Words such as hypnotized, cabal, Jewish money, globalists, and many more have long been used to discredit Jews. Avoid them. If, for example, you wish to talk about Jewish influence on politics through organisations like AIPAC, carefully appraise your use of language and consider how much influence AIPAC really has compared to other organisations. (Hint: AIPAC’s “Jewish money” is only the second-biggest pro-Israel lobby in America. The biggest is actually CUFI, a Christian organization.)

9. Recognize Jewish indigeneity to the land.

Jews come from Judea. They lived in Israel for thousands of years. Denying the connection between Jews and Israel is antisemitism.

10. Don’t blame Israel for the world’s ills

If you’re tempted to blame the world’s ills on Israel, you’re exhibiting not only a lack of knowledge of world affairs, but demonstrable anti semitism. Portraying Israel as the cause of all that’s wrong in the world doesn’t lend itself to open, constructive debate."







Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 19, 2019, 02:47:53 pm
Go away. I'm trying to sleep here!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on May 19, 2019, 02:56:42 pm
Go away. I'm trying to sleep here!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Hey those lengthy screeds could help you fall asleep.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 19, 2019, 03:17:03 pm
Hey those lengthy screeds could help you fall asleep.

Ya, I think that's the problem. Lol
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 19, 2019, 05:32:44 pm
I did not "word bomb".

You've word bombed the whole thread, Rue.
7,437 words to be precise.

Now I wonder if Google has a 'vicious personal insult counter' because you'd be off the scale on that.

I won't respond to any of the content of your vicious attack screeds, of course.

My position is simple:
*Israel is not above the law.
*Palestinians have a right to live free of occupation, degradation, land theft, eviction, killing of civilians including children, and the many other ways that Israel is Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx

*I have a right to present views and information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada without vicious personal attacks from propaganda-philes.
If Canadians can't speak up in defense of Palestinians without being personally attacked in a vicious manner with false accusations of anti-Semitism and incessant word-bombing ... If we have to think twice and then decide to be silent as we will be viciously and relentlessly attacked ... I have to wonder ...
 Is Israel  running Canada ... or New York?

You don't help your cause, Rue. Your disrespectful, duplicitous and indecent behaviour does not reflect well on Israel and is more likely to hardens anti-Israel views.
7,437 words ... that accomplish exactly the opposite of your supposed intent of supporting Israel.

Hmmm ...

Hamas could take a lesson from you in how to incite anti-Israel activism in Canada ... or New York.

Now don't blow a gasket. Take a walk and think about how you can actually be helpful. You have it in you. You just need to channel it more effectively.

Edit for length, personal insults, false accusations, twisted and duplicitous interpretations ... oh, and make sure you're not attacking someone personally  for something they quoted but did not say ...etc etc ... the usual editing stuff for persuasive writing ... to make sure you're not accomplishing the opposite. 


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 19, 2019, 06:19:17 pm
You've word bombed the whole thread, Rue.
7,437 words to be precise.

Now I wonder if Google has a 'vicious personal insult counter' because you'd be off the scale on that.

I won't respond to any of the content of your vicious attack screeds, of course.

My position is simple:
*Israel is not above the law.
*Palestinians have a right to live free of occupation, degradation, land theft, eviction, killing of civilians including children, and the many other ways that Israel is Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crimeofgenocide.aspx

*I have a right to present views and information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada without vicious personal attacks from propaganda-philes.
If Canadians can't speak up in defense of Palestinians without being personally attacked in a vicious manner with false accusations of anti-Semitism and incessant word-bombing ... If we have to think twice and then decide to be silent as we will be viciously and relentlessly attacked ... I have to wonder ...
 Is Israel  running Canada ... or New York?

You don't help your cause, Rue. Your disrespectful, duplicitous and indecent behaviour does not reflect well on Israel and is more likely to hardens anti-Israel views.
7,437 words ... that accomplish exactly the opposite of your supposed intent of supporting Israel.

Hmmm ...

Hamas could take a lesson from you in how to incite anti-Israel activism in Canada ... or New York.

Now don't blow a gasket. Take a walk and think about how you can actually be helpful. You have it in you. You just need to channel it more effectively.

Edit for length, personal insults, false accusations, twisted and duplicitous interpretations ... oh, and make sure you're not attacking someone personally  for something they quoted but did not say ...etc etc ... the usual editing stuff for persuasive writing ... to make sure you're not accomplishing the opposite.

Ironic...
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 19, 2019, 07:48:13 pm
Ironic...

profound!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 19, 2019, 08:46:56 pm
To the readers of this thread I will now ignore Granny for obvious reasons.

It is unfortunate she  has chosen to take my comments on a personal level and so engage back on a personal level.

It is also unfortunate Omni and Waldo came on this thread to bait me and contribute nothing to the thread .

In fact I  brought it to the moderator' s attention and he did nothing so all I can do like you is ignore them.



Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 19, 2019, 08:53:40 pm
The ignore feature is broken.  May as well relax and watch the Raptors lose in double OT
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 19, 2019, 11:21:24 pm
Ironic...
Point taken.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 20, 2019, 08:34:55 am
This thread is experiencing what many people and groups experience who speak up for Palestinians and speak out against Israel's actions.

FIRST-EVER: 40+ JEWISH GROUPS WORLDWIDE OPPOSE EQUATING ANTISEMITISM WITH CRITICISM OF ISRAEL
https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/first-ever-40-jewish-groups-worldwide-oppose-equating-antisemitism-with-criticism-of-israel/

As social justice organizations from around the world, we write this letter with growing alarm regarding the targeting of organizations that support Palestinian rights in general and the nonviolent Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, in particular. These attacks too often take the form of cynical and false accusations of antisemitism that dangerously conflate anti-Jewish racism with opposition to Israel’s policies and system of occupation and apartheid.
...
From our own histories we are all too aware of the dangers of increasingly fascistic and openly racist governments and political parties. The rise in antisemitic discourse and attacks worldwide is part of that broader trend.

At times like this, it is more important than ever to distinguish between the hostility to or prejudice against Jews on the one hand and legitimate critiques of Israeli policies and system of injustice on the other.

-----
Anti-Semitism and racism in general are currently emboldened by Trump's endorsement of gangs of  "very fine people" ... aka white supremacists.
 
At the same time, Israel's stifling of Palestinians' human rights is a legitimate concern to many.
 
Conflating those two as "anti-Semitic" is antithetical to progress toward real solutions in Israel-Palestine.

I don't have the experience or words myself to speak up for Palestinians and speak out against Israeli policies and actions, so I am pleased to learn that there  is a Canadian group, Independent Jewish Voices Canada, advocating on these issues. They are also connecting with similar Jewish organizations in the US and elsewhere, and with Palestinian activists.

I don't belong to and I don't speak for any organization.
I use their information to inform myself, and I post it to inform others.

And I will continue to do so.

I won't be silenced by accusations of anti-Semitism, and I won't be lumped with white supremacists, whom I have spent plenty of time opposing in discussions, at street rallies, and in communication with political leaders and police:  'Inciting and promoting hatred'  against whole groups of people is a crime in Canada, a law that police are increasingly being encouraged and pressured by anti-racism activists to apply to all of those who foment racial, ethnic and religious hatred online or in public.
(Goodbye Kevin Johnston!! Enjoy your financial audit, Faith Goldy!! Hey Paul Fromm ... you're banned from the US? Ahahahahaha!)

I'm just a free-thinking, free-speaking old hippy believing that a better world is possible without hatred.
I also believe that those political powers who sow hatred and division among people only to enhance their own power can be brought into line when people work across those divisions to resolve differences, develop and present solutions.
In order to do so, the voices that have often been silenced must be able to speak up, here and elsewhere.

Tomorrow in Toronto, IJV will stand in protest of unconditional support for Israel that fails to consider the oppression of Palestinian views and lives.
I wish them well.
I wish them peace.
And I hope these cross-cultural efforts on this issue can continue to be aired in respect.

(538 words ... ok a bit long ... I'll take my lumps for that... but I want to add just a bit more ... lol)

As a professional, I once had reason to delve into Israeli educational materials developed to address the needs of children who had spent much of their young lives in Nazi concentration camps where self-preservation required that they not speak and not think.
The neural and psychological effects of prolonged oppression and cultural deprivation are deep wounds. The efforts and success of Israeli educators to draw these children out, tap their true potential, were brilliant, heroic and world-reknowned. I was and I remain awed by the strength of the Jewish people who established and supported Israel, and by their determination to succeed.

True success as a people, a nation, doesn't come at the expense of others: Canada is not a 'success' because our growth came at the expense of Indigenous Peoples. We can't take back the evils done to Indigenous Peoples and especially their children.
Like Israel, Canada has compromised its integrity by dispossessing and oppressing those who lived here when we arrived.
We are in the same process of trying (and failing) to recognize and respect the rights of those with whom we share the land. There are those in Canada, and Israel, who boldly insist that those 'others' have no rights.
And there are also those who who understand that 'success' at the expense of others is not success at all, but utter failure as human beings.

I'm not a fan of organized religions. I do not deify historic texts that glorify the exploits of one group of human beings subjugating another. I believe that religion divides people into groups of warring factions that serve only the sociopathic impulses of money and power.
I'm not sure why I added that. Lol
I think all efforts to divide people against each other are self-destructive to humanity.
I think all people who organize themselves to correct injustices are the stronger, better face of humanity.

(Ok, I'm pushing close to 1000 words, but still less than a third of Rue's longest effort. Lol)
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 20, 2019, 12:50:04 pm
No matter what Israel does, Jews will always be attacked in the streets of European countries for Israel's actions. The Muslims of Europe have made no distinction between Jews and Israel. Antisemitism has been on the increase for the last 20 years, and the blame could be put on the internet and social media, as Muslims outnumber Jews by a ratio of 100 to 1.  Technology is a double edged sword, and unfortunately when Muslim communities in Europe and elsewhere are free to converse with Arab nations, hatred of Jews in general will always be an issue, and it influences Muslims in non-Muslim countries to hate Jews in general, regardless of what Israel does in its occupied territories.

The blueprints of hatred towards Jews were laid centuries ago, and the Arabs have adopted literature and propaganda from the Third Reich as fact. Unlike other nations who are repressing their respective ethnic groups (China, Russia, Indonesia, etc), the Jews will always have to endure the brunt of this hatred since they have been perennial scapegoats for thousands of years. The only thing the Jewish people could possibly do to end the hatred of Israel, is to abandon the Holy Land, and give Israel to the Arabs.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 20, 2019, 03:31:47 pm
No matter what Israel does, Jews will always be attacked in the streets of European countries for Israel's actions. The Muslims of Europe have made no distinction between Jews and Israel. Antisemitism has been on the increase for the last 20 years, and the blame could be put on the internet and social media, as Muslims outnumber Jews by a ratio of 100 to 1.  Technology is a double edged sword, and unfortunately when Muslim communities in Europe and elsewhere are free to converse with Arab nations, hatred of Jews in general will always be an issue, and it influences Muslims in non-Muslim countries to hate Jews in general, regardless of what Israel does in its occupied territories.

The blueprints of hatred towards Jews were laid centuries ago, and the Arabs have adopted literature and propaganda from the Third Reich as fact. Unlike other nations who are repressing their respective ethnic groups (China, Russia, Indonesia, etc), the Jews will always have to endure the brunt of this hatred since they have been perennial scapegoats for thousands of years.
None of that is relevant to the topic of this thread. As you state, anti-Semitism has existed for thousands of years, so it is not a phenomenon solely attributable to the formation and actions of Israel against Palestinians, which is the topic of this thread.

Quote
The only thing the Jewish people could possibly do to end the hatred of Israel, is to abandon the Holy Land, and give Israel to the Arabs.
It's unlikely that would end the anti-Semitism you describe above. I think you are conflating anti-Semitism with criticism of Israel's actions toward Palestinians, which is not anti-Semitism.
Nor is it "hatred of Israel".

What I and I think many others are feeling is disappointment in Israel's actions because it subjects Palestinians to occupation, dehumanization and intolerable conditions of living.

Perhaps it was too much to expect that Israelis would make extra efforts not to subject others to the same degradation and dehumanization that was inflicted on them. Nonetheless, that is the expectation and the requirement in law.

What I find helpful in IJV's posted information is that they can and do distinguish between anti-Semitism - which clearly exists before and beyond Israel - and criticism of Israel's actions.
Two separate issues.
Please don't conflate them again.
The topic of this thread is Israel-Palestine.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 20, 2019, 04:16:50 pm
You are only open to those in agreement with you. If anyone has a different opinion, you lash out on them like Rue has stated. Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

PS..quit trying to link the fate of the Jews under the Third Reich with Israel's treatment of people living in the Occupied territories. You have claimed Israel has committed "Genocide" on the Palestinians, which only makes you look foolish, and is a slap in the face for ethnic groups that have been real victims of systematic genocide.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 20, 2019, 06:09:30 pm
You are only open to those in agreement with you. If anyone has a different opinion, you lash out on them like Rue has stated. Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

PS..quit trying to link the fate of the Jews under the Third Reich with Israel's treatment of people living in the Occupied territories. You have claimed Israel has committed "Genocide" on the Palestinians, which only makes you look foolish, and is a slap in the face for ethnic groups that have been real victims of systematic genocide.

We disagree.
I'm ok with just leaving it at that.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 20, 2019, 06:29:33 pm
From today's IJV protest of the UJA Walk for Israel in Toronto:
INDEPENDENT JEWISH VOICES CANADA
Today, forty of us turned out, despite threats from those who oppose our views, to protest at the Walk for Israel in Toronto. Below is long-time activist Orev Reena Katz’s letter about why she protested.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157597713755016&id=742285015
From earlier today: Who are you walking with? Protesting the annual UJA Walk for Israel at Bathurst/Wilson Parkette

With whom and for what did I walk?  Why are you walking?

I grew up in this neighbourhood in the 1980s.  I attended public and hebrew school here.  My family belonged to the local synagogue around the corner, our family doctor was less than a block from this parkette.  We shopped every week at the Loblaws that later became the No Frills across the street.  My bubbie and great-aunt lived between here and York Downs.  I went to camp at Earl Bales Park.  I bought bagels at Bagel King, corned beef at Pancer’s deli, latkes at Marky’s restaurant, and hung out way too often at Country Time donuts.  On Shabbat, it was my job in our family to walk to Carmel Bakery to buy the challah and treats.  The landsmanshaft to which my family belonged, originating from my paternal grandmother’s hometown in Poland is a block west of here.  I once kissed a Chassidic boy in this very parkette.   It was thrilling to cross denominational lines, and to play with his peyes, to wonder what else was out there, what other secret desires might unfold south of Eglinton. 

I marched in the Walk for Israel in this neighbourhood throughout my elementary school years.  I volunteered with my Hebrew school class, and collected stamps on my passport at each “checkpoint”.  I participated.  I received praise for the tzedakah contributions in my cardboard Jewish National Fund box.  The process was mostly a social experience for me, not an ideological one.  I had that privilege.  Without giving much thought to it, I assumed Israel was a good country, somehow my country.  It was, at the very least, a safe place we could all flee if anything like the Holocaust ever happened in Canada.  It took me 15 years and a lot of questioning to realize I was told less than half the story.  We were told less than half the story. 

Once I had the honour of meeting Palestinians, of hearing what the Nakba did to their families, and what Israel’s Occupation and Apartheid system meant to them, 1948 came to symbolize something very different than a Jewish “homeland”.  I unlearned the deep Zionist indoctrination of my childhood.  What seemed so true when it came out of my Bubbie’s mouth, or showed up on my favourite teacher’s bookshelf, began to sound like a clarion call, born of fear, hatred and ignorance. 

We gather every year to protest the UJA Walk for Israel, and offer a different voice in Jewish community.  We’re here today to invite you to question and unlearn the racism that the Walk for Israel preaches.  There is another way to understand our collective grieving, our centuries of loss, and it starts with learning about power – white supremacy and colonization – the ideologies that created the genocides, displacements and dispossessions of our people, as well as that of Indigenous people on Turtle Island, and Palestinians worldwide. 

Wake up.  We can’t fake our way to safety by taking away another people’s land, their rights, their humanity – all in the name of our own survival. 

What are you actually walking with when you walk with the UJA?

Ignorance. Diffidence.  Fear.  Hatred.  Apartheid.  Xenophobia.  Parochial values. Myopia.

Our presence here today isn’t about “you” and “us”.  It is about WE.  We are all guilty of perpetuating violence and hatred, of choosing to be enemies instead of just being with our shared humanity, and listening to history.  This attitude is learned.  It’s part of our legacy as Jews on colonized land here and in Palestine.  We can hold up the Sacred Mirror for each other and move towards transformation, towards justice.  Let us be a City of Refuge for each other, where we learn trust, abundance, collective understanding, and how to change together, without our judgements, without our wounds.

Join the resistance.  Be a proud anti-Zionist Jew.  Move for Palestine.  Move for dignity, human rights, and justice.  Move for human survival and self-determination for all people.  Move against this endless war, environmental devastation and land theft.  Move against the illegal incarceration of youth, home invasions and demolitions.  Move against a wall of fear and hatred that keeps people from their neighbours, steals livelihoods and prevents people from living in dignity.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on May 20, 2019, 06:40:55 pm
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel. 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 20, 2019, 07:06:01 pm
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel.

I can't help but notice there are two or three threads on this subject, yet...

No threads on the occupation of Tibet
No threads on the occupation of the Crimea
No threads on the human rights abuses in East Timor
No threads on the recent atrocities in South Sudan
No threads on human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia
No threads on human rights abuses in Guantanamo Bay
No threads on atrocities committed in Syria

However, there is one state that is repeatedly singled out for condemnation. Israel.  Never mind that pretty much every Arab state from 1947 onwards enacted Nuremberg style laws against the Jews, and ethnically cleansed the Arab World of its Jewish population.

The truth is, at least in Europe, condemning Israel serves a purpose. It shifts focus from the inactions of the states of Europe during the Holocaust, and makes the Jewish state look like the bad guy. After all, it is easy to justify not doing anything when your neighbour is dragged from his home, and killed when you can paint your neighbour as an unsavory character who "deserved what was coming to him."
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 21, 2019, 05:18:19 am
Therefore I am done "your" thread. Have fun arguing with yourself.

teaser... thought you were done!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 21, 2019, 05:18:30 am
I can't help but notice there are two or three threads on this subject, yet...

no - as I'm aware there is but one thread, this thread, with an intent aligned with the following representative post extracts; an intent you and your cohort, member Rue, have been purposely distracting from:

There are Jewish voices in Canada and elsewhere who support Palestinian anti-occupation action.
Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitism.
Support for Palestinians can be spoken here.
This thread is my experiment to see whether reasonable people who recognize that Palestinians are under siege can have an intelligent discussion about that.

Without Israeli anti-Muslim propaganda trolling, please.
In this thread, I would like to be able to provide information from alternate viewpoints for respectful discussion.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 21, 2019, 10:06:39 am
no - as I'm aware there is but one thread, this thread, with an intent aligned with the following representative post extracts; an intent you and your cohort, member Rue, have been purposely distracting from:

Thanks waldo.
Yes, the purpose of this thread is to show that the struggle in Israel-Palestine is not purely a Jew-nonJew issue: There are Jewish people in Canada and elsewhere, including Israel, who regret Israel's choices in oppressing Palestinians and have the courage to speak up. They work with Palestinian-Canadians and others to educate Canadians about the issue, and to shine a spotlight on Israel's reprehensible actions in oppressing the rights, safety and well-being of Palestinians.

Israel is not exempt from International law because 'somebody else hurt them first'.
Israel is not exempt from International law because 'somebody else does it too'.

Israel is an ally of Canada, but many people are now questioning whether our support is addressing resolutions or just supporting status quo apartheid and oppression policies and actions.

I guess because I'm a 'lefty' labour/social justice type, the Jewish-Canadian people I've known are too, and also the Palestinian-Canadians. I know that conversations about solutions are possible in that respectful environment, still difficult, but understandings do progress and become actions.

(Side note: Long before Canada ever said the word 'multiculturalism', from the early days of organizing, the Labour movement has had to address racial/ethnic/cultural divisions to succeed. "A member is a member is a member." Period.)

But those discussions between Jewish and Palestinian Canadians were held in private in Canada, a presumably safe space for difficult cross-cultural discussions.
It's much more difficult to have those conversations in public spaces even in Canada ... drowned out, insulted into silence, word-bombed.

(But that too is freedom of expression: Anti-racists do that to white supremacists all the time. Lol )

But then we are told by our own government that we can't participate in or encourage Boycott, DIvest and Sanction of Israel?! That BDS is "anti-Semitic"?!
"Unh... No it isn't ... and excuse me, Justin but when exactly did we give up our freedom of expression to YOU?!!'

I think that obnoxious public 'directive' to Canadians from the PMO has galvanized more safe and private conversations to go public in Canada despite the opposition.
That's some progress. So thanks Justin! Lol


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 21, 2019, 12:34:46 pm
And the thing about anti-Zionist Jews is... they're Jewish.  I don't suspect them of being backed by anti-Semites.  They are protesting the actions of Israel.

Its not any more relevant than anti-Zionists of any religion.  Why is their religion significant or germaine to the issue?

Why is it when a Jew is anti Israeli it is of significance?  I asked Granny the same question and she wouldn't answer. How about you?

A Jew's opinion about Israel is no different than a non Jew's.  Why is it different?

 If you keep singling out the opinion is from a Jew and not non Jews then yes it could take on an anti-Semitic context because there is zero reason for referring to the religion unless you want to play good Jew bad Jew.



Can you or  Granny or anyone else  discuss an issue about Israel without making it an issue about Jews? Can you discuss Israeli state policies without

Or should I start pointing out when pro Zionists are not circumcised or Jewish? Come on MH get the point.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: cybercoma on May 21, 2019, 01:24:07 pm
This thread is a god damned dumpster fire.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 21, 2019, 03:10:30 pm
But then we are told by our own government that we can't participate in or encourage Boycott, DIvest and Sanction of Israel?! That BDS is "anti-Semitic"?!
"Unh... No it isn't ... and excuse me, Justin but when exactly did we give up our freedom of expression to YOU?!!'

"can't participate/encourage"??? I'd appreciate a citation to that end... in any case, PM Trudeau has most certainly reaffirmed the Liberal Party position on BDS - one that reflects upon that symbolic 2016 motion put forward by the CPC; a resulting vote that effectively followed party lines (CPC, Liberal versus NDP, Bloc Québécois).

(https://i.imgur.com/cuDFGkT.png)

as the outspoken Green Party supporter you are, it is interesting to note that somehow the single sitting Green Party member, its leader Elizabeth May, somehow managed to miss that vote. In any case, she made her position quite known 6 months later after a Green Party convention that voted to adopt a pro-BDS policy; specifically:

Quote from: Elizabeth May - leader of the Green Party
As Leader, I am disappointed that the membership has adopted a policy in favour of a movement that I believe to be polarizing, ineffective and unhelpful in the quest for peace and security for the peoples of the Middle East. As is the right of any member, I will continue to express personal opposition to BDS.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 21, 2019, 03:34:57 pm
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 21, 2019, 04:51:28 pm
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.

Fill your boots: Start your own thread.

Canada is an ally of Israel.
This thread provides a place for information and discussion about Israel-Palestine issues of concern to
Canadians.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on May 21, 2019, 05:02:00 pm
I find it odd that there's a BDS movement directed towards Israel, but none of the other many, many countries in the world with problematic human rights records.  Same with musicians who refuse to play in Israel but will play in dictatorship countries.

So you reckon there should be one thread to cover all the worlds sectarian problems? So go start one, or are you simply trying to whitewash this particular one?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 21, 2019, 05:05:52 pm
However, there is one state that is repeatedly singled out for condemnation. Israel.

The difference is nobody is defending the other states. Whenever actions are condemned, there always seems to be someone trying to defend the indefensible in the case of Israel.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 06:42:23 pm
The difference is nobody is defending the other states. Whenever actions are condemned, there always seems to be someone trying to defend the indefensible in the case of Israel.

How is Israel "indefensible?"

And yes, there are forum members defending other states. Venezuela has a horrible record of Human Rights abuses. If you were to click on the thread there is at least one or two posters defending Venezuela. I only looked at the most recent page of this sub-forum. I'm pretty sure if I took the time, I could cite other examples of posters defending countries that have been criticized for Human Rights abuses.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 06:46:06 pm
Fill your boots: Start your own thread.

Canada is an ally of Israel.
This thread provides a place for information and discussion about Israel-Palestine issues of concern to
Canadians.

Actually there are three recent threads covering the Israeli-Palestinian issue on this forum alone. Its overkill to have three threads discussing the same issue/conflict.

*my mistake. There are actually SEVEN threads that relate to this issue on this sub-forum.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 21, 2019, 06:47:50 pm
How is Israel "indefensible?"

I said the actions are condemned. If you need details, I suggest referring to the United Nations human rights council as a starting point.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 06:54:31 pm
I said the actions are condemned. If you need details, I suggest referring to the United Nations human rights council as a starting point.

Nobody cares about the UN anymore. It is at the point that its effectiveness is on par with the League of Nations circa 1933.  One thing is certain when it comes to the UN. Israel will always be singled out compared to other nations committing equal or worse Human Rights abuses (the entire world of Islamic states will vote for any resolution that condemns the Jewish state), and the USA and a select few other nations, will invoke their veto powers. to render any resolution ineffective.

A better question may be "why has the UN ignored the plight of Jews that lived in Muslim countries? After 1947, pretty much all Arab states confiscated Jewish property, stripped them of civil and human rights, and in many occasions, executed Jews for " spying for Israel" without due process of the law. Unlike the Arab nations, Israel has not ethnically cleansed the Arabs from the Occupied territories.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: SuperColinBlow on May 21, 2019, 07:19:48 pm
I took a few international relations courses in college. I gathered that the Arab Israelis may have felt like second-class citizens at times---but they can at least say so publicly and not disappear in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 21, 2019, 08:03:40 pm
"can't participate/encourage"??? I'd appreciate a citation to that end... in any case, PM Trudeau has most certainly reaffirmed the Liberal Party position on BDS - one that reflects upon that symbolic 2016 motion put forward by the CPC; a resulting vote that effectively followed party lines (CPC, Liberal versus NDP, Bloc Québécois).

(https://i.imgur.com/cuDFGkT.png)

as the outspoken Green Party supporter you are, it is interesting to note that somehow the single sitting Green Party member, its leader Elizabeth May, somehow managed to miss that vote. In any case, she made her position quite known 6 months later after a Green Party convention that voted to adopt a pro-BDS policy; specifically:

Thanks for that. I wasn't sure about the original wording.
"... government to condemn any and all attempt by Canadian organizations groups or individuals to promote the BDS movement here at home, or abroad"

"condemn" ?
What the heck does that mean?
They're going to read out a list in the House of the bad Canadians promoting BDS, and "condemn" us sinners publicly?

WTF are they thinking? It's disgusting that the government is trying to punish freedom of expression.

And I believe the Supreme Court might find it a violation of Constitutional rights, if it came to that.

The word "condemn" is laughable... has that 'hell and damnation' fire and brimstone feel to it. Lol
It's a non binding motion.
Means nothing

Except that BDS is working and that's bothering the Israeli government.
And that's the purpose.
Oppressing Palestinians has consequences.

Elizabeth May is entitled to her opinion, as are we all.



 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 21, 2019, 08:10:43 pm
Fill your boots: Start your own thread.

Canada is an ally of Israel.
This thread provides a place for information and discussion about Israel-Palestine issues of concern to
Canadians.

I'm not talking about another thread, i'm talking about the BDS movement, and why there's only a BDS movement for Israel but not many dozens of other countries whose governments do horrible things.  I'm not arguing that Israel doesn't do horrible things.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on May 21, 2019, 08:43:05 pm
This thread is a god damned dumpster fire.

Some things never change.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 21, 2019, 09:00:16 pm
I'm not talking about another thread, i'm talking about the BDS movement, and why there's only a BDS movement for Israel but not many dozens of other countries whose governments do horrible things.  I'm not arguing that Israel doesn't do horrible things.

I chose this thread topic about Israel-Palestine.

You can choose to start a thread on your choice of topic.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 21, 2019, 09:18:17 pm
Nobody cares about the UN anymore. It is at the point that its effectiveness is on par with the League of Nations circa 1933.  One thing is certain when it comes to the UN. Israel will always be singled out compared to other nations committing equal or worse Human Rights abuses (the entire world of Islamic states will vote for any resolution that condemns the Jewish state), and the USA and a select few other nations, will invoke their veto powers. to render any resolution ineffective.

A better question may be "why has the UN ignored the plight of Jews that lived in Muslim countries? After 1947, pretty much all Arab states confiscated Jewish property, stripped them of civil and human rights, and in many occasions, executed Jews for " spying for Israel" without due process of the law. Unlike the Arab nations, Israel has not ethnically cleansed the Arabs from the Occupied territories.
Oops ... I spit on my screen on that last line.

Vid, we're just going to assume that most people understand that Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians is reprehensible.

Put yourself in their shoes, in their conditions.
It's intolerable.
It cannot be justified.
No more excuses please.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 09:59:22 pm
I chose this thread topic about Israel-Palestine.

You can choose to start a thread on your choice of topic.

Its amusing that you are all about freedom of speech, and expressing ones opinion, only if they are in agreement with you. Otherwise, it is 'Go away and start your own thread.'
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 21, 2019, 10:21:50 pm
I chose this thread topic about Israel-Palestine.

You can choose to start a thread on your choice of topic.

I'm talking about Israel-Palestine.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 10:55:54 pm

Except that BDS is working and that's bothering the Israeli government.
And that's the purpose.
Oppressing Palestinians has consequences.

BDS has had little, if any effect on the Israeli economy.

I suggest we boycott Arab states until the repatriate the Jews the forcibly removed from their respective countries.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-middle-easts-greatest-untold-story_b_1652777

This month the United Nations marks World Refugee Day, a star-studded, multimedia campaign to raise awareness about the plight of refugees. Celebrities like Angelina Jolie have cut video spots that will be broadcast on television and spread on social media. Millions will participate in events spanning five continents, from concerts in London to a film festival in Beirut to a bike race in Ecuador. Yet mention of one group of refugees will be noticeably absent from any of these activities: the 850,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries during the past six decades. Their history remains one of the 20th century’s greatest untold stories.

At the end of World War II, 850,000 Jews lived in Arab countries. Just 8,500 remain today. Their departure was no accident. After Arab leaders failed to annihilate Israel militarily in 1948, they launched a war of terror, incitement, and expulsion to decimate their own ancient Jewish communities.

In Iraq Jewish businessman Shafiq Adas, then the country’s wealthiest citizen, was immediately arrested on trumped-up charges and publicly lynched. This was followed by bombings targeting Jewish institutions, arbitrary arrests of Jewish leaders, and massive government seizures of property. Within years virtually all of Iraq’s 2,500-year-old Jewish community had fled, emptying the country of many of its greatest artists, musicians, and businessmen.

The years have passed, but the injustice inflicted upon these Jewish refugees continues. Many around the world have remained silent and complicit as Arab governments have sought to erase all memory of their stories.

Nowhere is this revisionist history clearer than in the halls of the United Nations.  Year after year Palestinian refugees attract more attention and resources at the U.N. than Britney Spears at a paparazzi convention, yet not a single syllable about the Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries can be found in any of the 1,088 U.N. resolutions on the Middle East or the 172 U.N. resolutions dedicated to Palestinian refugees.

While Arab leaders have found a refuge from reality at the U.N., they have been unable to outrun the consequences of religious and sectarian persecution, incitement, and violence at home. In the rubble of Aleppo’s former Jewish neighborhoods, Assad’s Allawite-led regime continues to brutally suppress Syria’s Sunni-led uprising. In Egypt mobs burn Coptic Christian churches in the same way that they attacked synagogues years ago.  In Baghdad, where Jews once constituted a third of the population, Sunnis and Shiites remain pitted against each other after years of bloodshed.

Forging a peaceful future in the Middle East will require Arab governments to finally learn the lessons of their pasts. They must build inclusive societies that protect minorities and offer everyone a seat at the decision-making table.

The first steps toward true pluralism will come when Arab countries acknowledge the history of persecution and intolerance in their own lands. They should start by unearthing the 850,000 untold stories of Jews ripped from their ancient homes.

The historic Jewish presence in the Arab World must be recognized. The grave injustices inflicted upon them must be acknowledged. The crimes committed against them must be rectified.



Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 21, 2019, 11:08:42 pm
Oops ... I spit on my screen on that last line.

Vid, we're just going to assume that most people understand that Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians is reprehensible.

Put yourself in their shoes, in their conditions.
It's intolerable.
It cannot be justified.
No more excuses please.

I agree with you.  The problem is you take the side of the Palestinians, and ignore the other side.  There are different narratives at play here, and the situation is very complex, which is why we don't have peace after a century of conflict.

Israel illegally occupies Arab territory, and illegally builds settlements to expands its colonial takeover of the West Bank. On the other hand, Jews are probably the most hated peoples in the world, barely survived the Nazi holocaust, and are surrounded by Arab countries whom many would gladly kill every Jew in Israel if they could get away with it, and governments in the Palestinian territories that deny their right to exist and would also gladly exterminate them had they the means.

There are no good guys and bad guys in this, just a lot of BS.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on May 21, 2019, 11:31:51 pm
BDS has had little, if any effect on the Israeli economy.

I suggest we boycott Arab states until the repatriate the Jews the forcibly removed from their respective countries.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-middle-easts-greatest-untold-story_b_1652777

This month the United Nations marks World Refugee Day, a star-studded, multimedia campaign to raise awareness about the plight of refugees. Celebrities like Angelina Jolie have cut video spots that will be broadcast on television and spread on social media. Millions will participate in events spanning five continents, from concerts in London to a film festival in Beirut to a bike race in Ecuador. Yet mention of one group of refugees will be noticeably absent from any of these activities: the 850,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries during the past six decades. Their history remains one of the 20th century’s greatest untold stories.

At the end of World War II, 850,000 Jews lived in Arab countries. Just 8,500 remain today. Their departure was no accident. After Arab leaders failed to annihilate Israel militarily in 1948, they launched a war of terror, incitement, and expulsion to decimate their own ancient Jewish communities.

In Iraq Jewish businessman Shafiq Adas, then the country’s wealthiest citizen, was immediately arrested on trumped-up charges and publicly lynched. This was followed by bombings targeting Jewish institutions, arbitrary arrests of Jewish leaders, and massive government seizures of property. Within years virtually all of Iraq’s 2,500-year-old Jewish community had fled, emptying the country of many of its greatest artists, musicians, and businessmen.

The years have passed, but the injustice inflicted upon these Jewish refugees continues. Many around the world have remained silent and complicit as Arab governments have sought to erase all memory of their stories.

Nowhere is this revisionist history clearer than in the halls of the United Nations.  Year after year Palestinian refugees attract more attention and resources at the U.N. than Britney Spears at a paparazzi convention, yet not a single syllable about the Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries can be found in any of the 1,088 U.N. resolutions on the Middle East or the 172 U.N. resolutions dedicated to Palestinian refugees.

While Arab leaders have found a refuge from reality at the U.N., they have been unable to outrun the consequences of religious and sectarian persecution, incitement, and violence at home. In the rubble of Aleppo’s former Jewish neighborhoods, Assad’s Allawite-led regime continues to brutally suppress Syria’s Sunni-led uprising. In Egypt mobs burn Coptic Christian churches in the same way that they attacked synagogues years ago.  In Baghdad, where Jews once constituted a third of the population, Sunnis and Shiites remain pitted against each other after years of bloodshed.

Forging a peaceful future in the Middle East will require Arab governments to finally learn the lessons of their pasts. They must build inclusive societies that protect minorities and offer everyone a seat at the decision-making table.

The first steps toward true pluralism will come when Arab countries acknowledge the history of persecution and intolerance in their own lands. They should start by unearthing the 850,000 untold stories of Jews ripped from their ancient homes.

The historic Jewish presence in the Arab World must be recognized. The grave injustices inflicted upon them must be acknowledged. The crimes committed against them must be rectified.


(https://canadiantruths.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/screwed1.jpg)

You seem to have not strayed far from mommy's basement into the broader world. I have and often times supporting the UN after the US got done killing people. And what nit wit asshole came up with this stupid little braindead cartoon?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 21, 2019, 11:46:52 pm
You seem to have not strayed far from mommy's basement into the broader world. I have and often times supporting the UN after the US got done killing people. And what nit wit asshole came up with this stupid little braindead cartoon?

Someone is cranky today.

Sleep on it. homie.  You will feel better in the morning.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on May 21, 2019, 11:56:10 pm
Someone is cranky today.

Sleep on it. homie.  You will feel better in the morning.

Sorry to have upset your little apple cart, homie. I guess sometimes people with actual experience react a little harshly to those who pretend, but don't. I'll feel the same in the morning. 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 22, 2019, 09:37:39 am
The first steps toward true pluralism will come when Arab countries acknowledge the history of persecution and intolerance in their own lands. They should start by unearthing the 850,000 untold stories of Jews ripped from their ancient homes.

The historic Jewish presence in the Arab World must be recognized. The grave injustices inflicted upon them must be acknowledged. The crimes committed against them must be rectified.[/i]

hey homie, since you're determined to distract from the intent of this thread, let the waldo showcase your parroting. Care to provide a summary accounting of that 850K number in terms of 'forced refugee' versus 'willing/wanting emigrants'... while you're doing that identify the area/countries those refugees/emigrants settled in - yes?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 22, 2019, 11:27:19 am
I agree with you.  The problem is you take the side of the Palestinians, and ignore the other side.  There are different narratives at play here, and the situation is very complex, which is why we don't have peace after a century of conflict.

Israel illegally occupies Arab territory, and illegally builds settlements to expands its colonial takeover of the West Bank. On the other hand, Jews are probably the most hated peoples in the world, barely survived the Nazi holocaust, and are surrounded by Arab countries whom many would gladly kill every Jew in Israel if they could get away with it, and governments in the Palestinian territories that deny their right to exist and would also gladly exterminate them had they the means.

There are no good guys and bad guys in this, just a lot of BS.

It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

When far fewer Palestinians are left in Gaza and the West Bank, perhaps Israel will absorb them as a minority, likely with restrictions on their land and other rights to maintain Israel as a Jewish state.

It's quite reasonable that there are people who speak up to defend Palestinians in these circumstances.





Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 22, 2019, 11:44:48 am
It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

When far fewer Palestinians left in Gaza and the West Bank, perhaps Israel will absorb them as a minority, likely with restrictions on their land and other rights to maintain Israel as a Jewish state.

It's quite reasonable that there are people who speak up to defend Palestinians in these circumstances.

The bolded part of your post is not true. Granny, I do not think you understand the definition of Ethnic Cleansing.  You have mentioned extermination and Genocide committed against Arabs in Israeli controlled land. DO you have any legitimate evidence to substantiate your position?

(https://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/1-israeli-palestinian-images/arab-jewish-population-in-israel-palestine-1914-to-2005.gif)

Since 1967, the Palestinian population of the Arabs in Israel and the Occupied Territories has risen from just over 1,000,000 to over 6,000,000 today.  If Israel was indeed committing Ethnic Cleansing, then the total non-Jewish population would have declined. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dv1G-_5XQAAR0S7.jpg)

Compare that with an actual case of ethnic cleansing, like Arab countries forcing their historical Jewish population out of their respective countries through violence and persecution.  Your hatred of Israel blinds you to inconvenient truths of who the real guilty party is, when it comes to ethnic cleansing in the Middle East.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 22, 2019, 12:55:02 pm
It's just a "demographic debate" now, as Israel's ethnic cleansing (extermination?) of Palestinians succeeds:
https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-many-palestinians-are-there-1.5288567

From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

Quote
In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,413,500 people, about 20% of Israel's population. This figure includes 209,000 Arabs (14% of the Israeli Arab population) in East Jerusalem, also counted in the Palestinian statistics, although 98% of East Jerusalem Palestinians have either Israeli residency or Israeli citizenship.[113] In 2012, the official number of Arab residents in Israel increased from 1,413,500 people (in 2006)[113] to 1,617,000 or about 21% of Israeli population.[114] The Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 21% of the country's population.

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 22, 2019, 01:06:00 pm
From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.

There has been absolutely no ethnic cleansing or Genocide of the Palestinian population, as Granny seems to want us to believe. Arguably committing Human Rights abuses in the West Bank/Gaza Strip is a far cry from "Genocide."
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 22, 2019, 05:07:57 pm
From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Population

I don't know where you're getting this "extermination" and "ethnic cleansing" rhetoric.  What Israel has been doing is making sure to keep Israel as a Jewish state, which has some calling it an "apartheid state".  But of course, it's perfectly understandable for Israel to want their country to be a Jewish nationalist state, so how to deal with the Arabs in their state is tricky.  Similar to how Quebec wants to be a francophone province and how it has to deal with English and other non-french speakers.

Can you point to evidence of ethnic cleansing?  Arabs making up 21% of the population of Israel (and rising) says otherwise.  They could have kicked them out long ago had they wanted to.

Your stats are for Israel, and do not include Gaza/West Bank = Palestine.

The question is ... Can a One State solution be implemented ("from the river to the sea") and Israel-Palestine still be a Jewish state?

(From my link above)
The debate boils down to whether there is a Jewish majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. According to Ettinger, Jews make up 66 percent of the population between the river and the sea. And due to the change in birthrates, this majority is stable. "There is no Arab time bomb, there is a Jewish tailwind," he said.

According to Soffer, there are 6.2 million Jews and others in Israel, 1.7 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank. There are 1.6 million Israeli Arabs, not including Druze. Thus there are 5.8 million Arabs and 6.2 million Jews between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.

Soffer also talks about 60,000 people who have entered Israel illegally, 120,000 tourists who have outstayed their visas, and 300,000 Palestinians who have entered Israel since 1967 and live here, as well as foreign workers. "We are now 49 percent between the Jordan and the sea," Soffer says.


It seems there is no agreement.
Zionist Israel's intention is and always has been a Jewish state "from the river to the sea".
Now it's just a question of when (and how?) the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza are reduced to a safe enough minority that Israel can absorb them and still dominate them politically.

Let's just say that Israel's "human rights abuses" in Gaza and the West Bank may be experienced as ethnic cleansing or genocide (same thing) by Palestinians.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 22, 2019, 06:39:35 pm

It seems there is no agreement.
Zionist Israel's intention is and always has been a Jewish state "from the river to the sea".
Now it's just a question of when (and how?) the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza are reduced to a safe enough minority that Israel can absorb them and still dominate them politically.

Why do you insist on labeling the Jewish state as "Zionist Israel?"  The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.

Quote
Let's just say that Israel's "human rights abuses" in Gaza and the West Bank may be experienced as ethnic cleansing or genocide (same thing) by Palestinians.

While I agree Israel could very well be guilty of Human Rights abuses in the Occupied Territories, you argument is completely discredited on your insistence that Israel is committing "Genocide" or "ethnic cleansing."

Genocide:

Genocide, the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. The term, derived from the Greek genos (“race,” “tribe,” or “nation”) and the Latin cide (“killing”), was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Polish-born jurist who served as an adviser to the U.S. Department of War during World War II.

Although the term itself is of recent origin, genocide arguably has been practiced throughout history (though some observers have restricted its occurrence to a very few cases). According to Thucydides, for example, the people of Melos were slaughtered after refusing to surrender to the Athenians during the Peloponnesian War. Indeed, in ancient times it was common for victors in war to massacre all the men of a conquered population. The massacre of Cathari during the Albigensian Crusade in the 13th century is sometimes cited as the first modern case of genocide, though medieval scholars generally have resisted this characterization. Twentieth-century events often cited as genocide include the 1915 Armenian massacre by the Turkish-led Ottoman Empire, the nearly complete extermination of European Jews, Roma (Gypsies), and other groups by Nazi Germany during World War II, and the killing of Tutsi by Hutu in Rwanda in the 1990s.

source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/genocide

Ethnic Cleansing:

Ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ethnic-cleansing
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 22, 2019, 06:44:38 pm
The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.

I thought the Arab's were nomadic people.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 22, 2019, 07:25:27 pm
Why do you insist on labeling the Jewish state as "Zionist Israel?"
Because there may be people in Israel who are not Zionists.
Quote
The Arab position has always been to push the Jews into the sea, and eradicate them.
And Zionists likewise to the Arabs.
No solutions in retaining those positions though.
Maybe people can learn to live together peacefully.

Quote
While I agree Israel could very well be guilty of Human Rights abuses in the Occupied Territories,
What human rights abuses by Israel in the Occupied Territories are you referring to? 

 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 22, 2019, 07:32:47 pm
Because there may be people in Israel who are not Zionists. And Zionists likewise to the Arabs.
?

Quote
No solutions in retaining those positions though.
Maybe people can learn to live together peacefully.

In a perfect World, that would be an ideal solution.  However, it will never happen. We are talking about the Holy Land, and Christians, Musilms, and Jews have been fighting for centuries.

Quote
What human rights abuses by Israel in the Occupied Territories are you referring to?

Israel has given preferential treatment to settlers (approx. 250,000, 500,000 if one considers East Jerusalem) mainly Orthodox Jews. On some occasions, Palestinian homes and villages have been displaced.  I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/I7dayvsfnmbFC3WZe7e1mU3qAWliYZJ85Iz7JZl4EGc.jpg?auto=webp&s=5e0fcce54dac7e758b21f707a16198097832be27)
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 23, 2019, 12:00:10 am
hey homie, since you're determined to distract from the intent of this thread, let the waldo showcase your parroting. Care to provide a summary accounting of that 850K number in terms of 'forced refugee' versus 'willing/wanting emigrants'... while you're doing that identify the area/countries those refugees/emigrants settled in - yes?

still waiting member Vid - still waiting!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 23, 2019, 12:02:24 am
I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

you're not referring to your MEGAsized map - you simply linked to it... such a grand 'ta da'!  ;D C'mon homie - learn how to size images - yeesh!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 23, 2019, 07:09:08 am
?

In a perfect World, that would be an ideal solution.  However, it will never happen. We are talking about the Holy Land, and Christians, Musilms, and Jews have been fighting for centuries.

Israel has given preferential treatment to settlers (approx. 250,000, 500,000 if one considers East Jerusalem) mainly Orthodox Jews. On some occasions, Palestinian homes and villages have been displaced.

 I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

(https://external-preview.redd.it/I7dayvsfnmbFC3WZe7e1mU3qAWliYZJ85Iz7JZl4EGc.jpg?auto=webp&s=5e0fcce54dac7e758b21f707a16198097832be27)
Thanks Vid, though I'm having some difficulty interpreting it.
What do you actually mean by "displaced"?
How many Palestinian homes and villages have been "displaced"... and why?
What happened to those Palestinians? Where are they now?

How does your map relate to this map history of Israel's  expansion ?

https://images.app.goo.gl/A1njbSfMCxYxdFKu7
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 23, 2019, 12:57:35 pm
I can't read the map - is there a bigger one?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 23, 2019, 01:38:51 pm
On some occasions, Palestinian homes and villages have been displaced.  I will refer to this map I found on the BBC website:

Interesting map. I am surprised by the large number, and size of the military bases. It is also curious that they seem to be mostly in the Palestinian built up areas.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 23, 2019, 03:19:38 pm
Zionist Israel's intention is and always has been a Jewish state "from the river to the sea".
Now it's just a question of when (and how?) the Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza are reduced to a safe enough minority that Israel can absorb them and still dominate them politically.

That's not true.  Recently under Netanyahu he certainly seems to not want a 2-state solution and has been dedicated to the settlement building, so you're right there.  But to say they've always wanted all of the territory isn't historically correct.  Israel ceded Gaza to the Palestinians in 2005.  Israel at many times has tried to come to a 2-state solution.  Israel also agreed to the 2-state partition plan the UN proposed in 1947, which the Arabs rejected and launched war on Israel over.  If anyone has been more for a 1-state solution it has been the Palestinian leaders over the decades, though they've made efforts to reach a two-state deal also.

Netanyahu's plan may well be what you say, which is a shame and deserves condemnation for its illegal actions.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 23, 2019, 08:11:19 pm

Netanyahu's plan may well be what you say, which is a shame and deserves condemnation for its illegal actions.

It's a right-left thing like everywhere.
There are other voices.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 24, 2019, 09:02:15 pm
Is it hateful or anti-Semitic for Palestinians to describe the conditions of their lives in occupied territories?
Why are they suppressed?
By whom?
Is it acceptable for the far right wing extremist Jewish Defense League to harass and threaten people?
Has this suppression of Palestinian voices happened in Canada too?
It was supposed to be a community gathering to hear Palestinian-Americans speak about the Nakba—Israel’s 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine, commemorated on May 15th—the BDS movement, and US military aid to Israel. Instead, right-wing pro-Israel activists pressured the church—which had no involvement in the event other than renting out space—to jettison the gathering after a two-week campaign the church said consisted of hateful threats.
...
Palestine Legal, a group that defends activists’ right to speak on Palestine, says that over the last five years, there have been over 1,200 attempts across the US to suppress speech in favor of Palestinian rights.

https://jewishcurrents.org/protesters-shut-down-pro-palestine-event/

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 24, 2019, 11:59:07 pm
Is it acceptable for the far right wing extremist Jewish Defense League to harass and threaten people?

The JDL (Jewish Defense League) has not been relevant in nearly 20 years.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 25, 2019, 02:50:45 am
The JDL (Jewish Defense League) has not been relevant in nearly 20 years.
The JDL are reemerging as part of the anti-Muslim protests here in Canada, and in the UK too.
They target "Anti-Israel" BDS speakers and rallies too.
"Hateful threats" against a church because of Palestinian speakers is just a little over the top.

I think they also tried to link up with white supremacists (Alberta?) in mutual hatred to form the short-lived World Coalition Against Islam. It quickly fell apart, though: mutual hatred of Muslims wasn't enough as white supremacists are anti-Semites.

But whoever is making "hateful threats" to shut down Palestinian voices, It doesn't add to Israel's credibility:


People experiencing human rights abuses deserve to be heard.
I haven't managed to decipher the map you posted (I don't know how to resize it either).
What human rights abuses were you trying to show with the map?

And then there is this ...
https://www.womensmarchcanada.com/to_march_or_not_to_march
In the past two years, I have watched Jewish and Muslim women proactively challenge law enforcement, terrorist groups and often, the polarizing politics and ideologies that have prevented our communities and institutions from jointly and effectively confronting white supremacy.
To abstain from this work of difficult conversations and value-based alignment at a time when the blood of our peoples is literally being strewn across the places we live, pray and find refuge, to me, seems impossible and worse, harmful.


And in Israel too, I've heard of women doing similar things.

It doesn't have to always be the way it is.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 25, 2019, 04:38:28 am
The JDL are reemerging as part of the anti-Muslim protests here in Canada, and in the UK too.
They target "Anti-Israel" BDS speakers and rallies too.
"Hateful threats" against a church because of Palestinian speakers is just a little over the top.

Can you substantiate that claim with proof?

The Jewish Defense League in North America has been relatively inactive since shortly after 9/11.  The FBI placed the JDL on the list of Terrorist groups, after the War on Terror began.  There was a plot to bomb Mosques to get back at Muslims for 9/11, but the US counter-intelligence agency foiled the plan, and imprisoned Irv Rubin, a Quebec born Jew, and the leader of the JDL. Shortly afterwards, he committed suicide in jail. Since then, the JDL has done literally nothing, and is pretty much dead.  If you have a link to you claim, I would love to see it.

Quote
I think they also tried to link up with white supremacists (Alberta?) in mutual hatred to form the short-lived World Coalition Against Islam. It quickly fell apart, though: mutual hatred of Muslims wasn't enough as white supremacists are anti-Semites.

Complete and utter nonsense. Once of the JDL's primary objectives was to counter Neo-Nazi groups through violence, and out elderly war criminals that had settled in the United States, post World War 2.  The fact that you would actually suggest a Jewish group would work together with Neo-Nazi groups leads me to believe your knowledge of the two groups is limited. 


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 25, 2019, 09:04:38 am
Can you substantiate that claim with proof?

The Jewish Defense League in North America has been relatively inactive since shortly after 9/11.  The FBI placed the JDL on the list of Terrorist groups, after the War on Terror began.  There was a plot to bomb Mosques to get back at Muslims for 9/11, but the US counter-intelligence agency foiled the plan, and imprisoned Irv Rubin, a Quebec born Jew, and the leader of the JDL. Shortly afterwards, he committed suicide in jail. Since then, the JDL has done literally nothing, and is pretty much dead.  If you have a link to you claim, I would love to see it.

Complete and utter nonsense. Once of the JDL's primary objectives was to counter Neo-Nazi groups through violence, and out elderly war criminals that had settled in the United States, post World War 2.  The fact that you would actually suggest a Jewish group would work together with Neo-Nazi groups leads me to believe your knowledge of the two groups is limited.

I thought it was pretty weird too, but there they were ... briefly ... joined in anti-Muslim hatred ... white supremacists pretending not to be racists.
Who knows who might call themselves JDL these days. (Check their website.)
And who knows who else might think they 'defend Israel' by making hateful threats in order to shut down Palestinian speakers.

If Israel is confident that they have only committed a few human rights abuses, what's to worry about?

Can you clarify how many Palestinian families have been run out of their homes and dispersed. And their homes demolished? Is this frequent still?
Why is it done? Any killed? Where do they go then?
And how does that differ from 'ethnic cleansing', by your chosen definition?
Ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups. Ethnic cleansing sometimes involves the removal of all physical vestiges of the targeted group through the destruction of monuments, cemeteries, and houses of worship.

And you see no solutions for this impasse?
You said It's been going on forever as if it just always will. But I am glad at least women are trying to bridge gaps between the two cultures, in Israel and the diaspora, and groups like Independent Jewish Voices.

I think there lie seeds of solutions.



Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 25, 2019, 12:31:01 pm
Granny you are all over the place in your responses and you appear to have missed the point you were challenged on.

No one who has responded to you has said Palestinians do not have a problem.No one has said certain Israeli state policies are not helping and may be adding to the problem. No one has said criticizing Israeli state policies is anti semitic. However when you raise issues that have to do with Jews being extremist, such as the JDL that have nothing to do with the issues on the West Bank you initially raised yes you are challenged.

Can you focus on the actual issues of the West Bank and try suggest what CAN be done in specific positive terms that does not paint a black and white picture with an all or nothing series of proclamations by you? Granny, the JDL is not considered a representative of Israelis, the state of Israel, or any Jews for that matter other than the ones in it. It started off as an inner city gang mimicking the Black Panthers. Jewish students were being beaten up so some responded by becoming militant thinking if the Black Panthers could do it, so could they. It started as a reactionary response to being beaten up and did evolve with one wing in New York City let by a Rabbiah called Meyer Kahane. He moved to Israel with a cult following of about 80 Jews and they settled on the West Bank. They formed the Kache Party. They were part of a group of what we call Bible Zionists. They believed that since Judea and Somaria in the Bible were Jewish kingdoms wrongfully taken from Jews by Christians and Muslims they had the right to resettle in both areas.

They quoted the old Testament to justify their beliefs as to an Israeli state. Interestingly they moved next door to ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jews who have lived on the West Bank and in Hebron since the days it was called Jewish Somaria thousands of years ago. Those ultra-orthodox Jews do not believe Israel can exist until the Messiah first returns. They are therefore against an Israeli state. Some of them have allowed themselves to be used as guests in Iran and at anti semitic rallies against Israel depicting the holocaust as a lie.

The Kache Party was never anything but a fringe party. There are 3 kinds of Jewish Israeli on the West bank.  Technically the ultra-orthodox Jews that do not recognize Israel do not call themselves Israelis but will demand Israeli social and medical services  if it is to their benefit. They have spit in my face, thrown rocks at me and live in a very secluded segregated world and do not consider me or other Jews or Israelis Jewish. The Palestinian Authority and Hamas and Hezbollah propose a violent solution to them. They total about 200 to 250,000 of the Jews on the West Bank. Another 200-250,000 are what we call Nationalist Jews. They settled there with the firm belief that the West Bank was never part of any country and they have as much right to claim land there as any Muslim or Christian. Their legal position is not as one sided as it is depicted. The West Bank was never part of a foreign nation, and so because of that they do have legal rights to land ownership and the UN Resolutions that are often quoted do NOT and have never stated their land rights are illegal in fact they refer to the Israeli military presence and specific land purchases not all land purchases. Of these settlers, about one third could be considered potentially violent and hateful and from them came the Kache party and extremists of whom one killed Yitzhak Rabin the Prime Minister of Israel trying to promote a peace plan.

Another 200,00 Jews moved to the West Bank because they were dirt poor and had no where to live and many came from Arab countries where they had all their property confiscated. Most of them do NOT and have never hated Palestinians and moved out of necessity.

In regards to the Palestinians on the West Bank, the vast majority are descended from NON Palestinians who moved to the West Bank and in fact illegally squatted and took land away from actual native Palestinian inhabitants. So it is important you understand there are in fact more land title disputes between non Jewish Palestinians than Israelis and Palestinians. This is why Yasir Arafat blew up the Land Titles office on the West Bank. He had to hide the fact that the majority of people who took land on the West Bank were not Jews  or Israelis but Palestinians.

Next the area known as the West Bank, Israel pre-1967 and Jordan was in fact prior to 1949 called Palestine. It was supposed to be divided equally into two nations one Muslim, one Jewish living side by side. You need to read the history of the Picot Agreement and how the French lied to Prince Faisal to have him rip up his deal with the Jews of Palestine so that France could carve out Syria and Lebanon as French colonies and the British could create puppet monarchies in Iran, Iraq, Jordan and then Saudi Arabia so the two nations could control the Muslims to get access to oil. Had the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side by side, Britain and France would have had no special treatments. They did in the Middle East what they did everywhere else. They created on-going tribal tensions then posed as the intermediary. It was a divide and conquer technique of deliberately creating colonies of feuding tribes do justify their continued presence as moderators.

Read Winston Churchill's memoirs. Britain  was awarded a mandate by the League of Nations to create two Palestinian states but never intended to create a Jewish one. Churchill was in charge.  Britain  illegally seized 90% of Palestine and called it the Jewish free, Palestinian state of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. They placed one of Faisal's son's on the throne to placate him for being lied to and arrested by the French. The British  then placed Faisal's other son on the created colonial state of Iraq which sandwiched together in 3 layers Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis all feuding with one another. They then created a third kingdom in Saudi Arabia for the rest of Faisal's family and Syria and Lebanon once called Assyria were divided in 2. Syria is full of feuding tribes and Lebanon has 3 factions in perpetual war, Maronite Christian, Sunni and Muslim.

The West Bank was never and has never been part of any nation. The notion it belongs to Palestinians who have no nation as they are refugees from Israel in 1949 is false. The leaders of Palestinians never wanted and even ridiculed the notion of a Palestinian national or state until 1967. The term was only created in 1967 after Arafat was expelled from Jordan to Tunisia after failing to kill King Hussein of Jordan. Until then any Palestinian was given automatic citizenship in Jordan which still is and calls itself a Palestinian state. Because Arafat could not control Jordan, then and only then did he reinvent Palestinian to mean non Jordanian Palestinians.

You also have to understand that in the 1920's to WW2, Britain flooded the West Bank with non Palestinian Muslims with deliberate financial incentives to prevent a Jewish state. As Churchill stated, they did so because they paid back loyal Arabs for fighting along side them to defeat the Turks of the Ottoman Empire in WW1. The UAE and Kuwait are artificial monarchies like Saudi Arabia and Jordan whereby Britain appointed head of various tribes as the King of the country.

The day war broke out in WW2, the League of Nations was going to hold a meeting to disband Jordan as an illegal state and remove the mandate from the British. The War took over and the League was disbanded. During WW2 the Mullah of Jerusalem led the anti Jewish Palestinians into an alliance with Hitler to wipe Jews off the planet. The Mullah lived in a house confiscated from murdered Jews in Berlin and broadcast daily to the Arab world to join the Nazis. He was a principle influence in getting Heinrich Himmler to use gas to kill Jews more quickly. He is credited with taking a school bus, hooking up a hose, and then showing how gas quickly killed children and would be cheaper and faster than using bullets.While this man led the anti Jewish Palestinian nationals he never referred to wanting a Palestinian state ever. He talked of a Muslim state where all of the Middle East is. He recruited Yasir Arafat. Arafat ran drug cartels of heroin and hash hish from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon and Syria to  Europe. Arafat's connections were ideal for setting up a network of cooperation. Until Arafat died he made billions from these drug trades and no he did not invest them in Palestinians and Arafat was Egyptian not Palestinian.

During WW2 Muslim Palestinians and Jewish Palestinians also fought side by side in the British Army Palestinian division. They were excellent fighters with expertise in desert warfare like the Rhodesians and like the Rhodesians and Australians also experts on desert warfare, these three units were principle in defeating the Nazis and Italians in North Africa. After the War Nazis fled to Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina, but the vast majority moved to Egypt, Syria and Iraq where they ran their government ministries, police and military.The Mukbarat, the secret police Arab countries use, is modelled on the Gestapo.The military goosestep, helment, riding jodphurs and boots of the three armies on parade is modelled on the Nazi uniform. The Baath Party of Syria and Iraq that ran both countries was modelled on the Nazi model.

In Egypt Vice President Anwar Sadat an Gamel Nasser both wore Hitler mustaches and to this day you will see them worn by old Arab men.
The military uniforms of both men were based on Hitler's uniform. Their armies as to Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA still use the Nazi salute and goose-step.

Eleanor Roosevelt was appointed the UN Commissioner for Jewish Refugees after WW2 and it was because of her taking on the entire world Jews had a place to live. When Jews went to Israel they did not invade. They came as victims of Muslim or European nations not as invaders. They had no weapons, no money. In fact the British Army waited for them and imprisoned them. In fact wealthy Muslim families in what is now Jordan donated land to Jewish refugees.

Palestinians for the most part were not the issue. The Arab League of Nations was. Each of its leaders was a British appointed monarch or dictator, and each was financed by Britain, France. German Nazis openly worked along side the British and French supporting these  nations leaders. These colonial puppets did not want a Jewish state because in their Muslim religion they believe to this day no Jew can own land or have a nation anywhere on the planet. It was easy for ex Nazis, the British and French to exploit them. The British and French actually saw a Jewish nation as a thorn in their backside and an entity who could replace their expertise in technology for the Muslim nations. So they fanned a war to wipe the Jews off the face of Palestine and their armed forces were led by General Allenby and over 250 British military and French officers and ex Nazi officers. The British flew the Egyptian airplanes. The Arab League of nations attacked and this was not about Palestinians it was about getting ride of Jews. The only nation that stood up as Israel was about to be exterminated was Czechoslovakia who sent the few weapons they had and trained Jews to fight. These Jews of Palestine were also helped by Christians, Muslims and Jews from all over the world who volunteered as civilians. Beduin Arabs and Druze were principal defenders of Jews.

Israel said it would accept less than 6% of all of Palestine for a nation. Israel would be the shape of a very small kidney and a second Palestinian state would be next to it equally as small. The Arab League would not agree to that and commenced the war of 1948 to force the Jews to leave or die. It never happened. The pre-1967 borders of Israel to this date have never been recognized by any Arab state. This border is in fact an armistice line as to where the Arab armies fled after being chased by the much smaller Jewish forces. That is why Israel pre 1967 came about and to this day not even Jordan and Egypt who have peace treaties with Israel exchange ambassadors or recognize its borders.

It is the position of Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and Hezbollah and over 250 other terror cells, that Israel can not exist as a Jewish state, only as a Muslim sharia law state and only once reconnected to Jordan and the West Bank in one Sharia law Sunni Muslim state. Israel has no Arab country of Palestinian representative who will recognize the right of Israel to be Jewish to negotiate with, only Arab leaders and Palestinian leaders who call for the end of a Jewish Israel.

So we have the stalemate. Today's leaders of Palestinians outside Jordan do not spend a penny on them. They either funnel the money into offshore accounts or towards building tunnels and obtaining weapons for the war to liberate Israel.

I lived on the West Bank. I have seen the reality. You have 3 factions of Israelis on the West Bank and there are well over three hundred different political-terrorist cells operating on the West Bank, each with its own leader, each with  its own opinion, that form the Palestinian Authority. None agree on anything but the end of Israel. Financial aid given to UNWRA or other Palestinian relief agencies does not go to its people it goes to terror cells.

There are moderate Palestinians and Israelis that will live side by side peacefully. They have no say at this point because Iranian ad Saudi financed outsiders control their cells and use them in a proxy war between Sunni and Shiite. The disputes between Israelis and Palestinians are smaller than the disputes between Palestinians and the disputes between Sunni and Shiite Muslims.

There are legal systems at the federal levels of Jordan and Israel, the municipal and regional levels of the governments of Jordan and Israel, old Ottoman Empire property titles, current land titles, Vatican City Canon law legal titles to land owned by churches and Rabbinical and Sharia religious laws all that are in conflict.

The principal concerns on the West Bank today are water. After that it is garbage. The West Bank is crowded by a huge increase in Palestinian population. The average Palestinian believes the best way to rid the Jews is to over populate and squeeze them out and their increase in population is doing just that but the environment on the West Bank has nowhere to place the garbage and water and air and natural wildlife is all suffering.

I was active in trying to rescue and rehabilitate animals on the West Bank and people of all religions ridiculed me and others for doing that.
These wildlife such as vultures were essential but misunderstood.


This conflict is not black and white. It has a history and long chain of events that all evolved into the disputes of today. In history taking a snap shot of the here and now when considering the dispute is misleading.

More Palestinians and Muslims are dying from Muslim terror attacks than by Israelis.

People do not understand the reality of what goes on in the alleys, streets, lane ways of the Gaza and West bank. They have no idea how small it is.  They just assume the only dispute is between Israelis and Palestinians and all Israelis think one way and all Palestinians the other.

Its just not true.  There are extremists, haters, terrorists but they are the vocal minority. The majority remains silent and feels powerless to control their destiny and no Palestinians do not blame it all on Israel they know damn well its their own leaders who are corrupt and use the conflict with Israel to detract from their own failures and corruption. Israelis do not all agree with their government. Israel is a loud boisterous nation of opinions that speak openly and want peace and constructive change.

No Israeli or Palestinian relies on the  West to understand. Some many manipulate people in the West because they know foe example in Canada we have arm chair analysts who believe they can form accurate opinions and pronounce moral rights and wrongs by what they think they read or saw on the internet.

I took this time to write this out for Granny. If she feels it too long so be it but no one can say I come on this board to hate Palestinians or defend wrong or suggest I said things I did not and it is to show this is not about Jews, it is about a conflict of many peoples of many religions. There is no right or wrong.  If and when the collective psyche of the Muslim world can accept Israel as a Jewish state, everything else to achieve peace will be possible. Until then the status quo remains.

Granny provide solutions for two peoples to live side by side equally. Try it. Its a hell of a lot harder than cutting and pasting partisan one sided versions of an event  with zero suggestions.

I have done it  before on this forum many times:

1-recognize Israel as a Jewish state
2-disarm all terrorists
3-create a water irrigation system between Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank
4-create a common free trade market between Gaza, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and the West Bank including access to each others ports and airports, railways and roads for the shipment of goods and produce
5-create electric and solar energy grids for all member countries working together on it
6-create water desalination plants
7-share intelligence on technology
8-all equal and mutual access to religious and archeological sites
9-cultivate student exchanges
10-create animal and environment rehabilitation programs and projects
11-create a sewage system.

I do regularly converse with people on all sides of the conflict on the above. Some of us do. We don't scream and yell, moprally judge one another, blame people.







The next 200,000
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:36:24 am
I openly apologize to the forum for the length of some of my posts. I am the first to admit they are too long.
Granny you are...

(https://i.imgur.com/W5fuRux.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CDaQP8M.gif)

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 08:54:10 am
The JDL are reemerging as part of the anti-Muslim protests here in Canada, and in the UK too.
They target "Anti-Israel" BDS speakers and rallies too.
"Hateful threats" against a church because of Palestinian speakers is just a little over the top.

I think they also tried to link up with white supremacists (Alberta?) in mutual hatred to form the short-lived World Coalition Against Islam. It quickly fell apart, though: mutual hatred of Muslims wasn't enough as white supremacists are anti-Semites.

But whoever is making "hateful threats" to shut down Palestinian voices, It doesn't add to Israel's credibility:



In spite of Waldo's trolling I am going to carefully answer each and every question you asked. If you or anyone does not wish to read what I write please do not. I am attempting to explain a very complex issue that can not be properly discussed in a sentence. Discussing things in more than a sentence may  be threatening for Waldo or others, but you need not read what I write.

Just please remember this-understanding any conflict requires more than reading web-sites and generalizing complex disputes into black and white right and wrong labels.

Now to answer the above,  the JDL has not and has never linked up with white supremacist groups. These white supremacist groups in fact have linked up with progressive leftist groups supporting BDS, the BDSA movement and Hamas and Palestinian Authority, and other terror cells or groups financed by Iran or Saudi Arabia. Please understand the JDL are a minority of angry young Jews who represent themselves, period. They are not a massive network, they are isolated pockets of young men.

You also need to be fair and analyze the BDS movement and why the current government voted against what it is doing and will not support it.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 08:55:11 am
It's a right-left thing like everywhere.


No it is not. It is anything but. You say the above because you do not take the time to research the many issues involved.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 08:59:23 am
Is it hateful or anti-Semitic for Palestinians to describe the conditions of their lives in occupied territories?
Why are they suppressed?
By whom?
Is it acceptable for the far right wing extremist Jewish Defense League to harass and threaten people?
Has this suppression of Palestinian voices happened in Canada too?
It was supposed to be a community gathering to hear Palestinian-Americans speak about the Nakba—Israel’s 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine, commemorated on May 15th—the BDS movement, and US military aid to Israel. Instead, right-wing pro-Israel activists pressured the church—which had no involvement in the event other than renting out space—to jettison the gathering after a two-week campaign the church said consisted of hateful threats.
...
Palestine Legal, a group that defends activists’ right to speak on Palestine, says that over the last five years, there have been over 1,200 attempts across the US to suppress speech in favor of Palestinian rights.

https://jewishcurrents.org/protesters-shut-down-pro-palestine-event/


Granny you engage in rhetoric that does not discuss the issues generating the conflict and serves to create a bad guy and a good guy. When you do that, you empower extremism and extremist views on both sides.

In fact Granny words that come out of leaders of progressive leftists, pro Palestinians, can be anti-Semitic and often are. It depends on who is speaking and what they say.

It is necessary the  conflict is discussed without anti semitic references or references that paint all Muslims or Palestinians as terrorists if peace will come about. Certainly the approach you take in presenting one side and making rhetorical statements that do not discuss the issue do not help define or understand the issues.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 09:05:39 am
Granny you asked Vid these questions and I quote:

"Can you clarify how many Palestinian families have been run out of their homes and dispersed. And their homes demolished? Is this frequent still?
Why is it done? Any killed? Where do they go then?"

Don't you think, with due respect, you should answer these questions yourself before you start a thread like this? If you don't know these answers how do you then make judgements as you do predicated as if you have these answers?

When someone like me tries to explain, you complain I put you to sleep and Waldo engages in his childish taunts.

I will actually now explain your questions but it takes time and effort.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 10:22:48 am
I will now try provide some information as to the settlement disputes. I appreciate because of its complexity it is lengthy and so Granny or Waldo will not read it but it will show why Granny is focusing on issues without understanding how they evolved and try explain why they have come about and how they are not as simple as she claims:

1- 90% of all Jewish settlements have been  established on barren undeveloped land throughout the West Bank.

"This is evident even in photos taken by anti-settlement advocacy groups such as Peace Now and B’tselem.63 Since 1980, all settlement activity has been on public land. The process of establishing that settlement land is not private land owned by Arabs is “an exhaustive investigation process” monitored by the Israel Supreme Court.64 West Bank Arab residents who feel wronged when their private land is acquired (with compensation) for public purposes (such as new roads, public services, military installations, etc.) have the right of appeal directly to the Supreme Court."

sources for above: “Land Grab: Israel’s Settlement Policy in the West Bank,” B’tselem, p. 49, quoting a senior civil servant in the Ministry of Interior, Israeli Settlements and International Law,” prepared by the legal advisor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, March 2001, at:
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/docs/gen.htm , Chaim Herzog, ibid.


2. 80% percent of Jewish settlers reside adjacent to the Green Line along Israel’s ‘narrow hips,’ and many others are in strategically sensitive areas.


"The actual developed areas of Israeli settlements occupy less than 2% of the landmass of the West Bank.

Peace Now, which favors unilateral withdrawal and dismantling of Jewish communities in the West Bank, estimates the Jewish communities there take up only 1.36 percent of the land. The human rights organization B’tselem, which monitors Jewish building construction on the West Bank and reports its scope to parties abroad, also found the extent of Jewish settlement to be marginal. A B’tselem study published in 2002 found the percentage of developed areas of Jewish settlement on the West Bank comprises 1.7% of all land on the West Bank; if one includes non-developed municipal areas (almost all of which is unpopulated and zoned to meet expansion needs), 5.1% of the West Bank is ‘occupied’ by Jewish settlements.66 The other 94.9 percent is either land owned by local Arabs and registered in the Land Registry, IDF military installations, public lands administered by the government or undeveloped public land zoned to local councils."

source: http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/2/territories2.htm



3. Jews did not just suddenly show up on the West Bank

"Following the 1967 Six-Day War, the rise of Jewish settlements symbolized the restoration of a dimension of history often ignored by Arabs and unknown to most non-Israelis, which is that Jews had lived in the West Bank and the Old City of Jerusalem during Mandate times. That period ended only after they were killed or driven out in the aftermath of the 1948 war - when Jewish communities were obliterated. Between 1949 and 1967, Jordanian military personnel razed Jewish settlements, destroyed 58 synagogues, and used headstones from the Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives to build roads.In the course of the 1948 War, the West Bank was rendered judenrein – ethnically cleansed of Jews – by Jordanian invaders."

source for above: Jeff Jacoby, “When Jerusalem was divided,” Jewish World Review, January 9, 2001, at:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby010901.asp.

" The mountainous areas of Judea and Samaria were the cradles of Jewish civilization – from Bethel, where Jacob fought with the angels, and Shilo, where the Ark of the Covenant resided, to Hebron, the city of the Patriarchs. The Old City in Jerusalem, Hebron in Judea, Safed and Tiberius in the Galilee, were four holy cities where the Jews were concentrated throughout the ages. In 1898, on the eve of the first wave of Zionist immigration, Edwin S. Wallace, Consul General of the United States, visited Palestine and Jerusalem and wrote:68
Of the eighty thousand Jews in Palestine, fully one-half are living within the walls, or in the twenty-three colonies just outside the walls, of Jerusalem.

Where the Jewish population [in Jerusalem] outnumbers all others, three to one [a full 75 percent], the Jew has few rights.
Although permitted to settle anywhere west of the Jordan River, Zionist settlements were concentrated first in the coastal area, the Galilee and the Negev, in Jerusalem and Hebron in Judea. Jewish settlement elsewhere was more sparse.

During the 1948 War of Independence, the Jewish inhabitants - the men, women and children - living in communities north of Jerusalem and in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City, in the Etzion bloc between Hebron and Jerusalem and in the Jordan Rift Valley, were either evacuated to save their lives, killed as combatants while defending their homes, massacred after they surrendered or taken as prisoners of war and not allowed to return to their homes. 2,000 Jewish inhabitants of the Old City, who lived next to the holiest site in Judaism – the Western Wall of the Temple Mount - were an intolerable presence to the Arabs. Not one Jew was allowed to reside in or visit Jordanian territory, including the Old City, for 19 years.

After illegally annexing the West Bank in 1950, Jordan adopted a law in 1954 granting Jordanian citizenship to residents of the West Bank. The law covered those who had been subjects of the British Mandate and stipulated “any man will be a Jordanian subject … if he is not Jewish.”69 Jordan also prohibited Jordanians from selling land to Jews by penalty of death; the Palestinian Authority adopted a similar law in the 1990s."

source:  cited in a speech by Chaim Herzog, Israeli ambassador to the UN (1975-78) – “Jewish settlements in ‘the Territories’ Aren’t the Problem,” republished by FrontPage magazine.com, at:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=7142.



cont.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 10:30:43 am
source: https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24472429.html

The above is a neutral article that summarizes what obstacles will have to be dealt with to try to obtain peace
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 11:40:21 am
Further info for you to consider:

Palestinian Population

https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-census-4-7-million-in-west-bank-and-gaza-strip/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/palestine-population/

https://www.livepopulation.com/country/palestinian.html



Population of Israeli settlers on West Bank:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-settlements-population-in-the-west-bank

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-revealed-how-many-settlers-really-live-in-the-west-bank-1.5482213

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_settlements_in_the_West_Bank


Arguments That  Jewish Settlements are NOT Illegal (there is another side to the argument that is usually never discussed here it is if anyone is interested, many are not, but its there if someone is interested in both sides of the argument and does not just assume one side is the right one-my position is both sides have equally as valid legal claims)

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-settlements

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-settlements-under-international-law

http://www.sfmew.org/settlements/

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/11/the_israeli_settlements_in_the_west_bank.htm

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israels-right-to-the-west-bank/
https://israelrising.com/israeli-settlements-illegal/


Legal Process To Obtain and Build A  Settlement

1-multiple steps must be undertaken and approvals granted before a new building can be constructed in a settlement

2-process can often take multiple years and many plans

3-the Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Housing and Construction, Regional Councils, and Jerusalem City Council all play a role at various stages in the approval process

4-plans: plans for settlement construction in the West Bank must be submitted and approved by Israel’s Civil Administration; if approved, plans must be published so public can voice objections; based on these objections, plans may be accepted, rejected or a recommendation may be issued to change the plan

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:27:47 pm
Israel Admits Palestinian Laborers Are Often Exploited to Receive Work Permits --- In what a rights group calls a historic decision, the government is moving to correct the system in which employers buy and sell work permits and pass the cost onto employees

Quote
Palestinians who seek an Israeli work permit are sometimes forced to pay up to 2,500 shekels ($703) a month to middlemen, according to a study in which the Finance Ministry took part.

The sum ranges between 1,500 shekels and 2,500 shekels, about a quarter to a third of a Palestinian laborers’ average monthly salary, says the study, which marks the first time the government has recognized this exploitation of Palestinian workers – and a bizarre trade in work permits among employers.

Palestinian laborers are bound to a specific Israeli employer when receiving a work permit. For example, Ayman, a 45-year-old from a village near Jenin, pays about 2,400 shekels a month, though his employer sometimes chips in.

“There’s no choice,” says Ayman, who declined to give his last name. “We have to work, even if we have to pay a lot of money to a contractor.”

According to a government document obtained by Haaretz, “The employment method has not created proper employment conditions for workers. Moreover, it has allowed many situations in which salaries have not been paid to employees.”

Palestinian workers have submitted claims for nonpayment of salaries and other benefits against contractors worth 6 billion shekels.

The document is the work of an interministerial team set up to implement a 2016 cabinet decision on “improving regulation and changing the allocation of workers in the construction industry.” Behind this bureaucratic language lies a dramatic change in the employment of Palestinian laborers, whose number is predicted to reach 87,000 by the end of this year, three times the number in 2011.

One reason for the change is the need to increase the number of construction workers in a bid to build more homes and lower housing prices. The authorities also realize that the system for employing Palestinians – which has changed little over 50 years – has failed.

‘Scalping work permits’

Currently, the allocation of Palestinian workers is carried out by the Population, Immigration and Border Authority at the Interior Ministry, based on quotas decided by the government. Every month, the authority decides how to divide up these workers among contractors.

After the number of permits is decided on, each contractor submits a request to employ laborers and provides the details of every person he wants to employ. After a criminal and security check, the laborer is issued a work permit that explicitly states the employer’s name and industry. The worker must remain with this employer – but reality tells a different story.

“The allocation has led to contractors holding permits without even needing workers, because they fear that if they cancel the permits they will not receive workers in the future,” the document states. “This complete dependence of the workers on the contractors and the need for the contractors to hold permits have created fertile ground for an industry of scalping permits.”

For example, after a contractor reports that he needs 10 workers, he receives the permits. If the work finishes earlier than scheduled, or if the contractor can suffice with fewer employees, he has excess workers. They are a valuable resource that can be transferred to another contractor who does not have enough permits. The new employer pays the contractor in whose name the permits were issued, but he makes the Palestinian worker pay this amount out of his own pocket.

The Palestinians have little choice but to cooperate if they want to work, particularly in light of the weak Palestinian economy.

This trade in permits also has other effects. It turns out that an estimated 30 percent of workers meant for the construction industry actually work in other sectors after being allotted to other employers. The lack of competition between contractors – because they cannot hire workers freely and compete for them by offering higher pay and better conditions – is a main reason salaries have remained at minimum-wage levels, the Finance Ministry said.

The cabinet decided to implement a new mechanism for employing Palestinian workers as of July 1, but this has yet to happen.

Everything online

The new model is based on two major changes. First, the laborer can work for any contractor in the industry without approval in advance; he need not be tied to a particular employer. And the contractor can employ as many workers as he needs – within the limits of the overall quota approved by the government.

Also, salaries and other payments would be made online. This would greatly reduce the employer’s ability to pay less than required. Meanwhile, the middlemen and brokers would ostensibly be out of work, the document says.

The various ministries, including the finance and defense ministries along with the Israel Defense Forces’ Civil Administration in the West Bank, have many explanations on why the new model was not implemented this month. Some sources say the Defense Ministry is not eager to change the situation.

It is still not clear, however, whether the new freer market will reduce the exploitation. The Finance Ministry believes the workers will now have greater bargaining power and be able to switch jobs more easily. The ministry sees its main role as oversight; the employers will be the ones responsible for paying properly – the same situation as with Israeli workers.

Still, it's clear that without proper oversight and supervision, the planned changes will only be partially effective.

The workers’ rights group Kav La’oved says that for years it has recommended the new model, which should be praised as a historic decision improving the plight of Palestinian workers.

But other changes are needed; for example, the Population Authority’s payments department has failed to ensure Palestinian workers’ social rights.

For its part, the authority says its payments department has striven for years to ensure that Palestinian workers employed in Israel receive their work permits, salaries and benefits according to the law. “Nonetheless, the division’s operations do not replace employers’ responsibility to keep to all the agreements or relevant orders of labor law,” it said.

The Civil Administration said it has “formulated a new employment model and is even promoting it in the interministerial framework. When the work is done, we will act to implement it.”

The Defense Ministry did not comment.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:39:41 pm
Exploited and abandoned, the Palestinians are truly the betrayed

Quote
Writing in the New York Times less than a week after 61 Palestinians had been shot dead by Israeli soldiers, and nearly 3,000 were wounded, the political editor of the Jewish Journal, Shmuel Rosner, had this to say in an opinion piece entitled “Israel Needs to Protect Its Borders: By Whatever Means Necessary”: “Of course, the death of humans is never a happy occasion. Still, I feel no need to engage in ingénue mourning. Guarding the border was more important than avoiding killing, and guarding the border is what Israel did successfully.”

It was a hard, cold line of defence, one that was presented over and over again by the Israeli government and its supporters; the killings were justified by the need to secure the border and protect Israelis whose lives were threatened. That carefully orchestrated response, together with two stark facts, suggests emphatically that Israel wanted the bloodshed and intended it as a frank and brutal message to the Palestinians.

The facts are simple: the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) had alternatives to the use of live rounds: much heavier use of tear gas and the use of stun grenades, water cannon, even birdshot. Most, if not all of these, have been used to control protests in places like Bahrain, a fact to which I can attest having covered that Gulf country’s unhappy history for more than a decade.

Furthermore, the Israelis had known for weeks in advance of Hamas’s intention to provoke a march to the border using civilians as cannon fodder and still they chose to behave in the way they did, cutting down men, women and children, journalists and medical workers with round after round of sniper fire.

Had the Israelis and the Americans given any thought to the split screen images of a glossy US Embassy opening in Jerusalem juxtaposed with the massacre going on less than sixty miles away? Probably not. But then it didn’t really matter to them. Benjamin Netanyahu, emboldened by Donald Trump, saw the opportunity and seized the day. He had already calculated the consequences, Palestinians be damned.

What was the message that Netanyahu wanted to send to the people of Palestine? You have no hope, no future, you have only despair unless you accept our plan for peace. Otherwise we, with the collusion of Egypt, will continue to bleed you and squeeze you. We do not need to negotiate with you. Negotiations are finished. Take the plan we offer. Listen to your Arab brothers like Mohammad Bin Salman. The Saudi Crown Prince agrees with us that the time is now. There is no other way.

And the deal? That’s something that Trump’s son-in-law and special Middle East adviser Jared Kushner has reportedly pursued with Bin Salman. It looks remarkably like a real estate transaction. Unsurprising, perhaps, given that the 36-year-old Kushner has no previous experience in diplomacy, but an awful lot in wheeling and dealing in the high-stakes world of New York property ventures.

It has been called “the sanctuary plan”. It involves the Palestinians surrendering some 50 per cent of the occupied West Bank to Israel. Palestinian cities and towns in the West Bank that are encircled by Israeli settlement projects would fall under the administrative control of Jordan. For their part, the Egyptians would agree to cede North Sinai to a new Palestinian entity contiguous with Gaza. The capital of this strange agglomeration would become a Palestinian town on the outskirts of Jerusalem, Abu Dis. Jerusalem whole and undivided would then become the capital of Israel.

To assist in fulfilling the plan the Israelis are providing military support to Egypt in its fight against Ansar Beit Al-Maqdis (ABM). In 2014, ABM pledged allegiance to the self-proclaimed Daesh caliph, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi. The peninsula was declared Wilayat Sinai, the Sinai Province of Al-Baghdadi’s now broken caliphate.

According to the New York Times, what it called a “secret alliance” has enabled the Israelis to carry out more than 100 air raids inside Egypt against ABM over the past two years. The Egyptians have denied the claim, but crucially the Israelis have neither confirmed nor denied it. Using unmarked drones and fighter jets with their markings concealed, the Israelis have been degrading the terrorists’ military capability, something that the Egyptian army has signally failed to do.

To return to the analogy of a real estate deal, if you are Jared Kushner and you want to evict problem tenants from a highly desired property with as little awkwardness as possible, you have to offer them something in return, and that something can’t be a property overrun with heavily armed gangsters. So the Israelis are doing their bit to help secure the neighbourhood.

For his part, President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi desperately needs to keep both the Saudis and the Israelis on side as he struggles with a sluggish economy and disenchantment with his heavy-handed rule. Saudi cash to the tune of several hundreds of millions of dollars will help keep the economy and Sisi afloat. For the Egyptian President, giving up a troublesome North Sinai may seem a small price to pay.

For Mohammad Bin Salman, a solution to the Palestinian “problem” that he helps to bring about, one that is very favourable to Israel, means that he can then draw on the Israelis — who after all have nuclear arms — to stand up to Iran in the struggle for regional hegemony. Donald Trump can boast about pulling off the “greatest deal ever” and Jared Kushner will have salvaged something of his tarnished reputation. And the Egyptians now living in North Sinai? Well, that is a question to be sorted out down the road presumably.

In reality, the sanctuary plan is a madness, like ill-considered jottings on the back of a napkin. Ludicrous as it is, though, it must still have delighted Netanyahu. With little or no effort on his part, he had the Saudis on side backing a plan that even the most extreme right wing settler would find appealing. The cherry on the cake was Trump’s decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem with nothing demanded or given in return.

Of course a lot of questions remain. Why would the Egyptian President turn over more of his land, having already been roundly attacked for giving up two small islands in the Red Sea to the Saudis? What would cause the Palestinians to give up their rights in the West Bank and Jerusalem in return for a piece of Egypt riddled with terrorism?

In the evangelical euphoria surrounding the opening of the embassy in Jerusalem such questions count for nothing. Moreover, in the way in which the Saudis and much of the Arab world made small noises of sympathy rather than rise up in fury at the massacre in Gaza, the Palestinians can see which way the wind is blowing. Exploited by their own leaders, abandoned on all sides, they are truly the betrayed.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:45:48 pm
I find it ironic that you habitually criticize Rue for having long-winded posts, only to do the exact same thing.

wow! You're truly insightful... cause recent too long posts are simply a 'homage' to the masterRue!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:49:56 pm
Israel’s exploitation of Palestinian resources is human rights violation, says UN expert

Quote
GENEVA (18 March 2019) – Israel’s exploitation of natural resources in the Occupied Palestinian Territory for its own use is in direct violation of its legal responsibilities as an occupying power, says UN Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk.

“For nearly five million Palestinians living under occupation, the degradation of their water supply, the exploitation of their natural resources and the defacing of their environment, are symptomatic of the lack of any meaningful control they have over their daily lives,” Lynk said presenting a report to the Human Rights Council in Geneva.

“Israel’s policy of usurping Palestinian natural resources and disregarding the environment has robbed the Palestinians of vital assets, and means they simply cannot enjoy their right to development.

“Its approach to the natural resources of the Occupied Palestinian Territory has been to use them as a sovereign country would use its own assets, with vastly discriminatory consequences.”

The report, focusing on the impact of the occupation on the environment and natural resources, said people living under occupation should be able to enjoy the full panoply of human rights enshrined in international law, in order to protect their sovereignty over their natural wealth.

“However, Israeli practices in relation to water, extraction of other resources, and environmental protection, raise serious concerns.

“With the collapse of natural sources of drinking water in Gaza and the inability of Palestinians to access most of their water sources in the West Bank, water has become a potent symbol of the systematic violation of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory,” the Special Rapporteur said.

“As of 2017, more than 96% of Gaza’s coastal aquifer – the main source of water for residents of Gaza – has become unfit for human consumption. The reasons include over-extraction because of Gaza’s extremely dense population, contamination with sewage and seawater, Israel’s 12-year old blockade, and asymmetrical wars which has left Gaza’s infrastructure severely crippled and with a near-constant electricity shortage.

The Rapporteur said natural and mineral wealth from the Dead Sea, which is partly within the occupied West Bank, were being extracted by Israel for its own benefit, while the Palestinians were denied any access to those resources.

“States are obligated to ensure that the enjoyment of human rights is not affected by environmental harm, and to adopt legal and institutional frameworks that protect against any environmental damage that interferes with the enjoyment of human rights,” Lynk said.

There are serious concerns about Israel’s practice of disposing of hazardous waste in so-called “sacrifice zones” in the West Bank. The impact of Israel’s practices may be felt not only by Palestinians, but also by Israelis and others in the region, the Rapporteur said.

The report also questioned the ongoing use of excessive force by Israeli security forces against demonstrators in Gaza, and the near humanitarian catastrophe in the territory caused by the blockade.

Lynk also expressed fears about the fate of Palestinian families in East Jerusalem – nearly 200 of whom are at risk of forced eviction – and concern for human rights defenders facing increasing attacks on their credibility and pressure on funding.

“We must understand that these issues and violations block any visible path to Palestinian self-determination, and are instead leading to a darker future that heralds danger to both peoples,” he said.

ENDS

Mr. Michael Lynk was designated by the UN Human Rights Council in 2016 as the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967. The mandate was originally established in 1993 by the then UN Commission on Human Rights. Professor Lynk is Associate Professor of Law at Western University in London, Ontario, where he teaches labour law, constitutional law and human rights law. Before becoming an academic, he practiced labour law and refugee law for a decade in Ottawa and Toronto. He also worked for the United Nations on human rights and refugee issues in Jerusalem.

The Special Rapporteurs are part of what is known as the Special Proceduresof the Human Rights Council. Special Procedures, the largest body of independent experts in the UN Human Rights system, is the general name of the Council’s independent fact-finding and monitoring mechanisms that address either specific country situations or thematic issues in all parts of the world. Special Procedures experts work on a voluntary basis; they are not UN staff and do not receive a salary for their work. They are independent from any government or organization and serve in their individual capacity.

Investigate and Prosecute Pillage, Appropriation and Destruction of Palestinian Natural Resources

Quote
On 26 October, 2018, Al-Haq, Al Mezan Center for Human Rights and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) submitted, to the International Criminal Court (ICC), a 500-page file on alleged crimes committed by Israelis, in particular high-level Israeli officials, and individuals associated with corporations that are extracting and destroying Palestinian natural resources. The organisations provide a reasonable basis to believe that Israelis and private actors have committed the war crimes of extensive destruction and appropriation of property, pillage, and destruction and seizure of property.

The confidential communication provides factual information and legal analysis on the exploitation and destruction of Palestinian water, agricultural land, minerals, mud, stone, and oil. Mr. Shawan Jabarin, Al-Haq’s General Director, said that “in situations of armed conflict, the trade and business in natural resources have often been strong incentives for war and violence, and provided the finances necessary to maintain and prolong an armed conflict. The situation in Palestine is a case of such exploitation, in which Israelis and private actors have been deliberately and openly exploiting Palestinian natural resources for at least five decades. The exploitation of Palestinian natural resources by Israel, Israelis, as well as corporations, finances and thereby sustains and allows for the expansion of Israeli settlements, including by providing profitable employment to settlers and a secure living environment.”

Mr. Issam Younis, Al Mezan’s Director, also said that “Israel, acting as the Occupying Power has engaged in a deliberate and wide-scale exploitation and destruction of significant Palestinian resources in the OPT, as part of an overall policy to annex, exercise sovereignty, and ensure full non-consensual Israeli domination over Palestinian territory.”

Israel, along with and through Israeli and international non-state actors, including corporations, have unlawfully extracted Palestinian natural resources in the OPT, without the lawful consent of the occupied population therein, and solely for the benefit of the Israeli economy and population, including illegal Israeli settlements. Israel has also permitted and encouraged private actors to exploit Palestinian natural resources. Such private actors include business enterprises in agricultural and industrial settlements, as well as Israeli and multinational corporations. Israel’s unrestricted and unilateral exploitation of Palestinian natural resources will eventually lead to the depletion of Palestinian natural resources, to the detriment of the Palestinian occupied population and in violation of Israel’s customary international law obligations. Furthermore, the appropriation, destruction, seizure, and pillaging of Palestinian natural resources have serious social, economic, and environmental impact on the affected Palestinian communities, and notably infringe on Palestinians’ fundamental right to self-determination.

Mr. Raji Sourani, PCHR Director, said that “considering crimes committed in relation to the exploitation of Palestinian natural resources and the colonisation of the occupied territory, with complete impunity, the ICC Prosecutor must urgently open an investigation into the situation in Palestine.”

This is the sixth Article 15 communication to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, and it complements the file submitted to the Prosecutor in September 2017 concerning inter alia the transfer of Israeli settlers into the occupied territory, appropriation of Palestinian land, and forcible transfer of the protected Palestinian population.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 12:54:17 pm
Environmental justice, not dialogue, for Palestinians

Quote
By Sanjidah Ahmed and Hadeel Abdelhy | 10/25/2018

We are writing regarding a troubling event held Thursday named “The Dialogue Project” hosted by J Street U Duke and Duke Environmental Alliance in conjunction with Arava Institute. We find Arava’s positioning of itself as “neutral” and its emphasis on bringing Palestinians and Israelis to have a dialogue about environmental issues to be intellectually dishonest and inherently violent.

For starters, Arava poses as a “neutral body” when this is clearly not the case. Arava receives funding from the Israeli government. In addition, Arava also has a partnership with Ben Gurion University of the Negev, a university based in Israel which provides an accelerated B.A. track for Israeli fighter pilots and grants special scholarships to students who directly participated in Israel’s brutal military attack on the Gaza Strip, which killed over 1,000 Palestinians. Even if we were to ignore these associations and believe Arava’s claim to so-called “neutrality,” we still have plenty of cause for concern.

A position of “neutrality” is violent. It is complicit in the existing order—an order which seeks to destroy and replace. Simply put, the settler-colonial project of Israel is one of the annihilation of Palestinian people and culture, partially constituted through the appropriation and brutal transformation of land and the environment. Arava’s “neutrality” actively “greenwashes” this reality by normalizing colonial devastation and making the colonial state seeming eco-friendly through the language of cooperation and dialogue.

For example, Arava claims that “the lack of water for people and nations will be a constant cause for further conflict.” The organization further claims that this “water-scarcity” is both part of the region’s natural geography as well as an inevitable consequence of climate change. However, Palestine is not water-scarce. In fact, Ramallah experiences more rainfall than London.

By appealing to the myth of water-scarcity, Arava purposely avoids addressing Israel’s monopoly on resources and its restriction of water to Palestinians for decades. Since Israel first occupied the West Bank in 1967, Israel has sought to control Palestinian access to water through water agreements that make Palestinians water-dependent on Israel. The Oslo Accords II in 1995 which were supposed to remain in force for only five years, set in place an agreement that provides for an unequal allocation of water sources, allowing Israel to use 80 percent and leaving only 20 percent for Palestinians. This agreement is still in place despite the fact that the population of Palestinians has nearly doubled since then.

Israel has exploited and exacerbated this disparity in manifold ways e.g. cutting off water to Palestinians during Ramadan, destroying water pipelines in the West Bank, seizing water tanks from Palestinians, and preventing Palestinians from developing water infrastructure. This state of affairs seems unlikely to be overturned anytime soon. In June 2017, a water agreement between the Palestinian Authority (PA) and Israel increased the amount of water that the PA can buy from Israel, thus further entrenching Palestinian reliance on Israel. This overwhelming power divide ensures that any dialogue fails to acknowledge the fundamental concept of water as a shared resource. Palestinians, lacking the power to negotiate this dependence away, can only negotiate the quota of water they receive from Israel.

Despite what Arava claims, supposed water-scarcity cannot be a site of common ground, as Israel does not suffer its consequences. In fact, Israelis consume four times more water per person than Palestinians. Meanwhile, Israel profits because Palestinians are forced to purchase water from Israel. The Palestinian and Israeli realities are polar opposites, not a shared struggle.

Beyond water, Israel has been systematically unleashing environmental violence on Palestinians since Israel’s inception. Just earlier last week, Israeli settlers chopped down a hundred olive trees in al-Mughayyir village in Ramallah (West Bank) continuing with its long-standing pattern of destruction. Between 1967 and 2015, Israel uprooted about 800,000 olive trees in Palestine. Due to the symbolic, cultural, and material importance of olive trees for Palestinians, Israelis have specifically targeted olive trees for destruction in a way that mirrors their targeted destruction of Palestinian people.

Yet another form of environmental violence weaponized against Palestinians is the outsourcing of toxic waste to Palestinian lands and bodies. Israel has “industrial zones” in its settlements in Palestine where they set less environmental regulations and provide financial incentives such as tax breaks and government subsidies for companies that wish to build waste treatment facilities in the West Bank. Additionally, in 1982, an Israeli court ordered the shutdown of Geshuri Industries, a pesticide and fertilizer company due to the harmful effects the pollution would have on Israeli citizens. Following Israel’s logic of apartheid and its de-facto categorization of Palestinians as sub-human, Geshuri Industries relocated from Kfar Saba in Israel to an area near Tulkarem in the West Bank where they could operate with impunity. In fact, a significant portion of Israel’s waste-treatment facilities, predominately treating waste produced by Israelis in Israel, is actually located in the West Bank, leaving the harm of the toxic pollutants and contaminants to be borne by Palestinians.

These examples are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Israel’s systematic devastation of Palestinian lands and people. In this context, Arava’s positioning of the environment as “common ground” is nonsensical. By remaining silent on these environmental assaults, whose environment is Arava claiming to protect?

Frankly, we find J Street U Duke and Duke Environmental Alliance’s celebration of this event as a “peacemaking event” to learn about Arava’s efforts to “loosen the tension between even the oldest of feuds” to be both ludicrous and shameful. We reject the premise that dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians can solve environmental problems when Israeli violence is responsible for Palestinian environmental degradation and unbearable living conditions. As we have clarified, this not a mere “feud.” The environmental degradation in Palestine is the result of Israel inflicting decades of environmental violence as a method of collective punishment to ensure the complete domination and annihilation of Palestinian people.

No dialogue between an oppressor and the oppressed will bring justice because dialogue implies parity. Dialogue invokes the vision of two equally responsible members of a conflict coming together to sit at the table to rationally talk things over. Dialogue locates the root cause of “conflict” in vague notions of “difference” that must be overcome by a sense of common humanity. The possibility of such a transcendence is absurd given the fact that the state of Israel is predicated upon the construction of this difference and a rule by difference, epitomized by the recently-passed Nation-State Law. As long as Israel continues to define itself this way, it will continue to perceive Palestinians as a threat that should be removed violently.

Difference itself cannot drive conflict. Difference becomes an issue when it is intentionally constructed, codified, and used to categorize the population and assign differential rights. Difference as problematic is the direct consequence of an ideological and material project of domination. By implying that difference (the very difference that Israeli rule is predicated upon) is the cause of violence, dialogue masks the real driver of not only violence but also environmental degradation in Palestine: settler-colonial occupation. This is a matter of power, not difference. Palestinians need justice, not dialogue.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 26, 2019, 01:11:07 pm
Human Rights Council 38th Session - Side event: "Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory: Systemic Violations with Impunity"

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Geneva International Centre for Justice (GICJ) with International Organisation for the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (EAFORD), International-Lawyers.Org, and Euro-Med Monitor for Human Rights organised and participated in a side-event at the Thirty-Eighth Regular Session of the Human Rights Council. The event took place from 12h00 to 13h30 on 3rd July, 2018 in Room XXIII at the Palais des Nations.

Concept note of the side-event:

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Israel’s prolonged occupation of the Palestinian territory involves systematic human rights abuses, including collective punishment, routine use of excessive lethal force, and prolonged administrative detention without charge or trial. It builds and supports illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, expropriating Palestinian land and imposing burdens on Palestinians but not on settlers, restricting their access to basic services and making it nearly impossible for them to build in much of the West Bank without risking demolition. Israel’s decade-long closure of Gaza made the lives of 1,9 million Palestinians living there unbearable. For that Gaza is described as the world’s largest open-air prison.

This side-event aims to bring to light the atrocities of the occupation, characterized by horrendous and unending human rights violations resulting in the continuous and systematic suffering of the Palestinian people. Through its constant non-cooperation with the United Nations System in general and international human rights mechanisms in particular, Israel has not only robbed the Palestinian people of their right to self-determination, but also repeatedly implements new and improved measures to deepen the suffering of the Palestinians. Our organizations thus call upon the international community to take a stand against this blatant and long-standing human rights catastrophe.

Special Guest: Mr. Michael Lynk:     Special Rapporteur on the situation of Human Rights Situation in the Palestinian Territory Occupied since 1967. Via Skype.

Speakers: Ms. Aroub Soubh:    TV program presenter, she is the official Media Spokesperson for the Jordanian coalition, My Nationality is the Right of My Family, and Consultant at the Euro-Mid Human Rights Monitor.

Ms. Daniela Donges:    Civil peace worker for Palestine, a former member of GICJ. She follows on the ground information concerning the situation in Palestine.

Ms. Eman Zuiter:    A Human Rights researcher who works with Geneva International Centre for Justice since 2016 as well as with the Euro-Med Monitor since 2015.

Moderator: Mr. Mutua Kobia:    Senior Human Rights Officer at Geneva International Centre for Justice, additional representative of EAFORD at the United Nations.

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Ms. Aroub Soubh: “The Blockade of Gaza as a form of Apartheid”

Ms. Aroub Soubh was the first speaker to start the discussion and began by enumerating that Apartheid is both territorial segregation as well as a ‘matrix of control’ imposed on a group of people for who they are.

She went on to explain that since the occupation began in 1967, the Palestinian people have lived in four so-called ‘domains’:

-    Civil law with special restrictions, governing Palestinians who live as citizens of Israel;

-    Permanent residency law governing Palestinians living in the city of Jerusalem;

-    Military law governing Palestinians living under conditions of belligerent occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since 1967, including those in refugee camps;

-    Policy to preclude the return of Palestinians, whether refugees or exiles, living outside the territory under Israel’s control.

Following this, Ms. Soubh rightly termed the blockade of Gaza a humanitarian crisis, asserting that the State of Israel's restrictions on entry prevent the repairing of Gaza's sole power plant as well as of houses destroyed during Israeli offensives in the area. Israel continues to control entry to and exit from Gaza by land, sea and air, and has been subjecting Palestinians to a suffocating blockade, which constitutes an unprecedented form of collective punishment in stark violation of international humanitarian law.

Speaking about the economic collapse, she cited that Gaza’s economy has effectively been in recession since the beginning of the blockade, with the private sector receiving the largest share of losses due to the restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on the movement of businessmen and traders as well as many companies and private enterprises – which make up the only source of income for a large portion of Gaza population – being targeted.

Before providing some final recommendations, Ms. Soubh touched upon the electricity crisis and its ramifications, in that water and sanitation, sewage, healthcare, and education are severely and adversely affected. For hospitals in Gaza, constant instability of power supply only deteriorated the quality of the healthcare services available, with the high cost of running a generator forcing small businesses, especially startups, to close within a short period of time.

To conclude her comprehensive assessment of the blockade of the Gaza strip, she proposed the following recommendations:

-    First, to the State of Israel, to put an end to all forms of apartheid practices against the Palestinian civilian population and an unconditional end to the blockade on the Gaza Strip, as well as, compensation to all those who were affected.

-    To the Israeli government, to work in earnest to end its long-term occupation of the Palestinian territories as stipulated in UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

-    Finally, to the international community, urging it to exert effective pressure on Israel to immediately end its blockade of the Gaza Strip and its ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territory, as all it does is further fuel conflict and lead to unnecessary violence and escalation of tensions in the region.

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Ms. Daniela Donges: “Observations of Human Rights situation on the Ground and Laws that Entrench the Occupation”

Ms. Daniela Donges was the second speaker to take the floor and she started her presentation by noting that since 1946 Palestine is losing slowly and illegally its territory. Palestine is becoming more and more invisible on the map because of the illegal, brutal, and violent Israeli occupation. Israel is creating settlements in Palestine to fully control it.

For example, Israel constructed a wall with a military checkpoint in Al Walaja to isolate the village. Many residents became refugees. The creation of that wall is a violation of international Law.

Khan Al Ahmar is a village in the Jerusalem Governorate of the West Bank where people live in tents and huts. There are many Bedouins and children. The village is located between the Kfar Adumimm and the Israeli settlements of Ma’ale Adumim. There is a huge difficulty to access the school. The Palestinian ministry of education constructed a school in that area, but the Israeli Civil Administration ordered to demolish the school. Buildings were demolished in 2010 by Israel claiming that these buildings were illegal. In September 2012, the Israeli government had a plan to relocate residents to the Jordanian valley, but they strongly refused that plan.

Furthermore, there are laws that entrench the occupation:

1. Demolition orders against unauthorized structures 1539-2003

2. Law for the Regulation of Settlements 5777-2017

3. Order concerning the Removal of New Structures 1797-2018

4. Administrative Affaires Courts Law 5768-2018

During a discussion at the Knesset on 27 June 2017, the director of the Civil Administration Supervision Unit said that there are 500 movable structures in the administration’s warehouses confiscated from Palestinians. He stated that all it requires to dismantle and confiscate a movable structure is a formal statement by one of the supervision unit’s employees. There is no other administrative or legal procedure needed.

The Law for the regulation of settlements in Judea and Samaria, 5777-2017: The Knesset passed a law on 6 February 2017 legalizing those unauthorized settlements and giving settlers the right to remain in them.

Order concerning the removal of new structures (9 May 2018): The Israeli military published military order 1797. This new order allows the Israeli army’s “civil administration” to target and demolish Palestinian structures in area C within 96 hours, whatever may be the status of the land or the issuing of building permits. The new order aims at preventing international aid from supporting any legal action against future Israeli orders, which has proven quite successful in preventing or delaying illegal demolitions in the past.

Administrative Affairs Courts Law 5768 – 2018 prevents human rights organizations from flooding the Israeli court system with petitions against the demolition of buildings.

There is also a new law requiring NGOs to reveal any foreign funding. Palestinians in the West Bank are banned from attending and organizing a procession, assembly or vigil of 10 or more people for a political purpose. Anyone breaching the order faces imprisonment for up to 10 years and/or a hefty fine. Such threats and intimidation tactics against Palestinian activists eliminates the space for resistance in the political sphere even for those taking to the streets, loudly objecting to, for instance, the creation of the illegal Wall of Separation.

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Ms. Eman Zuiter: “Excessive Use of Force against Peaceful Protestors”

Ms. Eman Zuiter was the third speaker to take the floor and began her presentation by speaking about the Great March of Return. The peaceful civilian protests, which started on 30 March 2018, continue every Friday. It is formed to demand the end of 12 years of blockade and to enforce resolution 194 (the right of return). Israel used live and explosive bullets as well as toxic gas against those protesters.



•    Israel targeted the medical personnel on Gaza border fence. For example, they targeted Razan Al-Najjar who was a Paramedic. She was killed at the age of 21 with a bullet in the Chest while she was helping people who were injured.

•    Israeli soldiers were targeting the Press, which is totally illegal, and we saw a video on journalists who were killed by Israel. Among them Yassir Murtaja who was 30 years old and killed with a bullet in the abdomen.

•    Targeting of Children is the most terrifying and shameful crime. The story of the child Mohammad Ayoub who was merely in seventh grade was a real shock. While he was in the eastern border wall of Jabalia town in northern Gaza, he was killed with a bullet in the head. Mohammad did not have any weapon, not even a knife. 

The speaker mentioned several other reported killings and injuries of unarmed protesters who never posed a threat to the life of Israeli soldiers that were well fortified and at a distance. She also pointed out to the numerous grave breaches of essential Articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention concerning the prohibition of acts willfully causing great suffering or serious injury, as well as, other measures of brutality. Among the articles she highlighted are Article 32 relative to the prohibition of corporal punishment, torture, murder, etc, Article 33 relative to the prohibition of collective penalties, and Article 147 relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war.

However, week after week of the “Great Return March”, Israeli occupation forces continued to open fire at hundreds of Palestinians joining the demonstrations along the border of the Gaza Strip, and continued the practice of employing excessive and lethal force against unarmed protesters, journalists and paramedics, in violation of international human rights law.

The international community must denounce violations of international law and ensure accountability. It must urge Israel to respect the protesters’ legitimate exercise of their rights to freedom of assembly and association, and take concrete steps for the protection of civilians in the occupied Palestinian territory, including by calling for an end to the illegal occupation.

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Mr. Michael Lynk: “Can an Occupying Power become an Illegal Occupant if it abuses the Fundamental Principles that underly the modern Laws on Occupation?”

Mr. Michael Lynk, Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territory Occupied since 1967, was the final speaker to take the floor and began by announcing that his presentation would be addressing the question “Can an occupying power become illegal if it abuses the fundamental principles that underlie the modern laws on occupation?” His conclusion is that it can become illegal and his presentation would demonstrate this case under international law.

To begin with, he underlined the concept of prolonged occupation, which in numerous instances has been used to describe an illegal occupation. He noted that this concept could become a legal guise masking a de facto colonial exercise, annexation, conquest or other form of permanent rule. In light of this, he went on to describe the state of Israel as an occupying power under international law and the role and obligations it is obliged to follow under leading principles and the Geneva Conventions. Referring to his October 2017 report as Special Rapporteur to the United Nations at its General Assembly he argued that a four-part test could be administered to determine whether the status of an occupying power is illegal. A country that seeks to transform occupation into a claim of sovereignty is in violation of its obligations under international humanitarian law and hence acquires the status of illegal occupant. The four elements of the test he proposes are as follows:

i.    An Occupying Power cannot annex any of the Occupied Territory

International law scholars have noted the ‘no-annexation’ principle as a legally binding doctrine and under United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution 242 (November 1967) the Security Council endorsed the principle of “the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory” on several occasions neither by war nor by force. Thus, Israel’s de jure annexation of East Jerusalem in 1967 (by Cabinet decision) and 1980 (by a Knesset vote) is ipso facto, a grave breach of the laws of occupation, which the Security Council in August of 1980 censured in the strongest of terms and affirmed that these actions were in breach of international law and the annexation of Jerusalem was “null and void” and “must be rescinded forthwith”. However, Israel has remained non-compliant with all United Nations’ resolutions on the annexation of Jerusalem.

Furthermore, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in its 2004 Advisory Opinion cautioned that the Wall and settlement regime constitutes a fait accompli and de facto annexation. The West Bank Area C is under Israel’s complete control and settlers live under Israeli law in Jewish-only settlements that are expanding. This continued occupation over part or all of the Palestinian territory can only be explained as colonial ambition par excellence.

ii.    An Occupation is inherently temporary, and the Occupying Power must seek to end the occupation as soon as reasonably possible.

By definition, occupation is a temporary and exceptional situation where the Occupying Power assumes the role of de facto administrator of the territory until conditions allow for the return of territory to the sovereign. Due to prohibition against acquisition of territory by force the occupying power is prohibited from permanent rule or rule on an indefinite basis.

The 51-year-old Israeli occupation is without precedent or parallel in today’s world as instances of modern occupation that have adhered to strict principles of temporariness, non-annexation, trusteeship, and good faith have not exceeded 10 years. Israel itself cannot offer a compelling reason for this extraordinary length of occupation consistent with its obligation to end its rule as soon as reasonably possible and this intentionally forestalls any meaningful exercise of self-determination by the Palestinians.

iii.    During the Occupation, the Occupying Power is to act in the best interests of the people under Occupation.

Mr. Lynk noted the principle under international law that the occupying power is required, through its duration of occupation, to govern and act in the best interests of the people under occupation. This principle is observed in the 1907 Hague Regulations, the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention and international human rights instruments that provide further provisions that protect the lives, property, natural resources, institutions, civil life, fundamental human rights, and latent sovereignty of the people under occupation.

However, barriers and restrictions have resulted in mounting impoverishment and according to the World Bank and the United Nations, Palestinians in the West Bank endure inferior civil, legal and social conditions compared to Israeli settlers and suffer significant restrictions to their freedom of movement, denial of access to water and natural resources among other violations of their fundamental freedoms. In addition, these restrictions adversely affect the daily life of Palestinians in Gaza as well where over 60 percent of the population is reliant on humanitarian aid and more than 40 percent are unable to secure electrical power. As for East Jerusalem, the occupation has increasingly detached it from its traditional national, economic, cultural and family connections with the West Bank because of the Wall, the growing ring of settlements and related checkpoints, and the discriminatory permit regime. It is neglected by the Municipality in terms of services and infrastructure, the occupation has depleted its economy, and the Palestinians have only a small land area to build housing.

These instances lead to the conclusion that Israel is ruling the Palestinian territory as an internal colony and is committed to exploiting its land and resources, and is profoundly indifferent to the rights and best interests of the protected people under occupation, which is contrary to its obligations.

iv.    The Occupying Power must act in good faith

This principle is the “cardinal rule of treaty interpretation” in the international legal system and is an integral part of all legal relationships in modern international law. It requires states to carry out their duties and obligations in an honest, loyal, reasonable, diligent and fair manner with the aim of fulfilling the purposes of the legal responsibility, including an agreement or treaty. Conversely, the principle of good faith prohibits states from engaging in acts that would defeat the objective and purpose of the obligation.

An occupying power is required to govern the territory in good faith and this can be measured by its compliance with two obligations:

i)    Its conformity with the specific precepts of international humanitarian law and international human rights law applicable to an occupation;

ii)    Its conformity with any specific directions issued by the United Nations or other authoritative bodies pertaining to the occupation.

It has been deemed that Israel has breached many of the leading precepts of international humanitarian and human rights law throughout the occupation. Additionally, the prohibited use of collective punishment has been regularly employed by Israel through the demolition of Palestinian homes of families related to those suspected of terrorism or security breaches and extended closures of Palestinian communities. Freedom of movement is impaired and above all the entrenched and unaccountable occupation violates if not undermines the right of the Palestinians to self-determination.

Mr. Lynk pointed out that since 1967 the Security Council has adopted more than 40 resolutions critical of Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territory and which deal with the settlements, annexation of Jerusalem, denial of Palestinian human rights and Israel’s refusal to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention. The UN General Assembly and the Human Rights Council have also adopted several hundred similar resolutions.

He then brought to attention an important legal precedent in international law; namely, the influential Advisory Opinion on Namibia by the International Court of Justice in 1971, pointing out striking similarities. The one difference he noted was that South Africa’s rule of Namibia arose from a League of Nations Mandate whereas Israel’s occupation is governed by the laws of occupation found in the Fourth Geneva Convention.

In this consideration, Mr. Lynk pointed out five significant features in the 1971 International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling concerning the colonial rule in Namibia to bear with in relation to the situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

1)    The ICJ stated three core principles that all Mandatory holders must comply with:

a.    The Mandatory Power has no right of annexation of any of the mandate territory,

b.    It must act as a trustee for the well-being and development of the people in the mandate territory, and

c.    The Mandatory Power cannot introduce discriminatory laws and practices that disadvantage the peoples of the mandate.

2)    The principle of self-determination is the ultimate purpose of the Mandate.

3)    Deliberate and persistent violation of these core principles of the Mandate would amount to a fundamental breach of an international undertaking.

4)    Strict compliance with the protections of the Mandate for the benefit of the peoples of Namibia as long as it is governed by South Africa.

5)    The use of the “good faith” test to judge whether South Africa was in compliance with the governing principles of the Mandate.
International experts and scholars consider this a touchstone precedent for assessing and understanding the legal status of Israel’s continued occupation.

In conclusion, Mr. Lynk said that international law is the promise states make to one another and to their people that rights will be respected, protections will be enforced, agreements and obligations will be upheld, and peace with justice will be pursued. While noting earlier that the international community at large has completely failed in ending the occupation it nonetheless still has a crucial role to play in realizing the rights and self-determination of the Palestinian people, which can only be achieved with an end to the occupation. He noted that international law, along with the peoples of Palestine and Israel, have all suffered in the process.

To answer the fundamental question asked at the beginning of his presentation concerning the test as to whether a belligerent occupation remains lawful, he said that an occupier or mandatory power would cross the red line into illegality if they breach fundamental obligations as alien rulers and he then submitted as Special Rapporteur that Israel has crossed this red line. The international community now faces the challenge of assessing this analysis and if accepted will have to devise and employ appropriate diplomatic and legal steps that would completely and finally end the occupation.

In addition, as recommended in his October 2017 report the United Nations General Assembly should commission a comprehensive study on the legality of Israel’s continued occupation of the Palestinian territory and should then consider the advantages of seeking an advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice on this very question.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 26, 2019, 05:16:45 pm
All good information to have here.

Thanks Rue and waldo for posting all of that.

Sources appreciated.

I try to keep in mind that in Israel, as in Canada and elsewhere, there are right wing and left wing voices: There are hawks who see war as the only strategy, until the enemy Is entirely vanquished, dispersed, destroyed ... and there are others who see diplomacy - honest dialogue, problem solving and compromise as the best strategy.

There are protests against Israeli militancy within Israel too.

We need to be able to hear all voices to understand this difficult situation.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2019, 08:16:43 pm
All good information to have here.

Thanks Rue and waldo for posting all of that.

Sources appreciated.

I try to keep in mind that in Israel, as in Canada and elsewhere, there are right wing and left wing voices: There are hawks who see war as the only strategy, until the enemy Is entirely vanquished, dispersed, destroyed ... and there are others who see diplomacy - honest dialogue, problem solving and compromise as the best strategy.

There are protests against Israeli militancy within Israel too.

We need to be able to hear all voices to understand this difficult situation.

Thank you agreed. In spite of Waldo still trying to use this thread to mock me , to you Granny I acknowledge the issues he raised as serious issues that need to be addressed. 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 27, 2019, 08:09:25 am
 Yes, there is an Israeli 'left' ... or at least centre.

May 25 2019
In the face of Netanyahu's threat to democracy, Israel's opposition makes rare show of unity:
At Saturday's protest, the speakers were more impassioned than usual, the messages sharper, and the listeners angrier. It could herald a new era in Jewish-Arab relations

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-in-the-face-of-bib-s-threat-to-democracy-opposition-showed-a-rare-display-of-unity-1.7284444

An overflow crowd of close to 100,000, which exceeded the most optimistic expectations, came to see the leaders of the opposition parties standing together and speaking in one voice, after trying to avoid each other like the plague during the election campaign.

The demonstration ended the post-election period in which the opposition seemed to be in a coma. Despite the emerging certainty that Netanyahu was about to achieve immunity from prosecution by depriving the Supreme Court of its authority to annul the move — by depriving it of judicial review altogether — his critics displayed an inexplicable apathy, now seemingly dispelled by a single demonstration.

But the importance of the demonstration wasn’t the fact it was held, but rather in the tense 24 hours that preceded it — when a vigorous left-wing campaign on social media compelled the Kahol Lavan organizers to issue a last-minute invitation to Odeh to participate. The vision of a joint Jewish-Arab front — the long-held dream of the Israeli left — suddenly came to life, at least for one night.

It was Odeh’s appearance that electrified the crowd, convincing hundreds if not thousands of left-wing activists not to boycott it because of his absence. The endemic division of the Israeli left, a product of that political wing’s well-known purism and fractiousness as well as the inherent tension in the relations between Arabs and Jews, dissipated into thin air.
...
... Saturday night’s demonstration can be seen as a defibrillator that might resuscitate the Israeli opposition. It could revive hope in a center-left that was left despondent by Netanyahu’s victory in the April 9 election. It could, despite the obstacles, herald a new era in Jewish-Arab relations, which could have far-reaching ramifications for politics and society as a whole.


My purpose in starting this thread was to give space to Jewish and Palestinian voices who promote dialogue and diplomatic solutions to the Israel-Palestine dilemma, and Canadians who support them.
My purpose in this post is to show that Israel itself epitomizes the sharp left-right divides that plague Canada too.

It is not true that to support Israel one has to assume a hawkish position that blames, denigrates and dehumanizes Palestinians to justify occupation and violence against them.

We don't have to assume that the voice of the hawkish right represents all of Israel. It doesn't. It only represents the voice of Netanyahu and the hawkish parties now in power.

There are other voices in Israel, other parties, perhaps best described as 'centre' rather than 'left', divided and not in power now but representing the views of  significant numbers of Israeli people.

There is never one voice, even the one in power,  that represents all Canadians.
There is never one voice, even the one in power, that represents all Israelis nor all of the Jewish diaspora.

IMO, our government can support Israel best if we recognize that we should not interfere in their politics by taking a position that aligns us only with parties in power, but recognize and respect that there's a variety of perspectives on solutions as there is in Canada.

When Trudeau speaks with Netanyahu's voice, he disrespects Israeli democracy, imo.
When Trudeau tells Canadians how we can and cannot express ourselves (eg, telling us we cannot boycotting Israeli settlement goods!), he disrespects Canada's democracy.

So there's my agenda:
It isn't about taking a particular side in the Israel-Palestine issue: It's about the right to do so.

All views in Israel, Palestine and their respective diasporas deserve a voice.
All views in Canada deserve a voice.

In Canada, the line is drawn at 'Inciting or promoting hatred', a high bar that does not interfere with speaking or acting with our conscience.
Naive, arrogant and malleable (corruptible) Trudeau disrespected that.

This thread is not specifically about the Palestinian agenda, or the agendas of Israelis of Jews in Canada and elsewhere.
It is about the rights of Canadians to speak and act in dissent against governments.

When we stop dissenting, we have given up democracy.
Democracy is not something we 'have'.
Democracy is something we have to protect everyday.


Because every political leader will try to violate and degrade democracy by taking a chunk of our power away from us and adding it to his.
We cannot naively expect politicians to protect our democracy for us.
We have to protect our democracy from politicians.

Trudeau's response to Israeli government pressure about BDS should have been: Canadians act as they see fit. I can't tell them how to think, speak or act.
Participating in BDS is not against the law. It's not Trudeau's business to tell us how to think, speak and act.

We're not all two-faced Liberal opportunists, and we don't have to act like them just because they have a tenuous grasp on a fake majority in parliament. Lol
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 27, 2019, 12:08:45 pm

Yes, there is an Israeli 'left' ... or at least centre.


My purpose in starting this thread was to give space to Jewish and Palestinian voices who promote dialogue and diplomatic solutions to the Israel-Palestine dilemma, and Canadians who support them.

My purpose in this post is to show that Israel itself epitomizes the sharp left-right divides that plague Canada too.

It is not true that to support Israel one has to assume a hawkish position that blames, denigrates and dehumanizes Palestinians to justify occupation and violence against them.

We don't have to assume that the voice of the hawkish right represents all of Israel. It doesn't. It only represents the voice of Netanyahu and the hawkish parties now in power.

It isn't about taking a particular side in the Israel-Palestine issue: It's about the right to do so.[/b]
All views in Israel, Palestine and their respective diasporas deserve a voice.
All views in Canada deserve a voice.

In Canada, the line is drawn at 'Inciting or promoting hatred', a high bar that does not interfere with speaking or acting with our conscience.
Naive, arrogant and malleable (corruptible) Trudeau disrespected that.

This thread is not specifically about the Palestinian agenda, or the agendas of Israelis of Jews in Canada and elsewhere.

It is about the rights of Canadians to speak and act in dissent against governments.[/b]

When we stop dissenting, we have given up democracy.

Democracy is not something we 'have'.

Democracy is something we have to protect everyday.

Participating in BDS is not against the law.

We're not all two-faced Liberal opportunists,

On a serious note none of my responses or any other responses have  contested the above points.

There are a few who will only focus on one side of these disputes.

I was active in a peace network when I was young of Palestinians, Muslim, Jewish Bahaii and Christian students.

I am now involved in some inter faith groups. Most of us transcend religious ideology and are against terrorism and want a
two state solution. When we discuss the issues we avoid doing so with people who have partisan agenda.


I will also tell you this-please do not literally assume what any Middle East politician says. They engage in what is called meta communication which provides different meanings from the same words, one for their audience, one for their foes. There are many code words used that also signal politicians and terrorists and military on the other side or with their own allies or fellow terrorists.


A lot of what Netanyahu says has one meaning to Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah and Iran, another to the PA, Egypt or Jordan or Saudi Arabia.


Mr. Abbas right now is powerless. Hamas has rendered him powerless on the West Bank to do anything. A lot of his language is used to show WSest Bank  Palestinians he is as tough on Israel as Hamas.


Whether Netanyahu or Abbas literally mean some of the things they same is probably not accurate. They do a lot of signaling and posturing.


The PA's biggest enemy and threat to existence is not Israel its Hamas and Hezbollah. Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are closer to Israeli state policies on how to deal with Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, and for that matter Turkey and Iran than you think.


Palestinians are caught again in a large battle between Saudi Arabia and Iran using them to fight each other.


The Palestinian terror cells are just as much a threat and considered an enemy  to all those countries and Iraq, Lebanon and Syria as they are Israel.

Palestinians have always been used as pawns by the Arab League for proxy wars against themselves. More Palestinians have been killed by fellow Muslims in these nations than Israelis.

Palestinians are despised in the Arab League nations and considered similar to the way Jews were in Europe prior to WW2.

As for internal Israeli politics it has every ideology from extreme left to extreme right and then some.Likud has some very right wing rigid politicians and some doves as well. Some right wing Israeli parties I myself consider very very problematic to lasting peace as they are not just anti Palestinian but anti Jewish as they define Jewish.

There are no good or bad guys. Most Israelis if you take a poll still want a two state solution while most Palestinians when polled do not.

One of the reasons for that is that moderate Muslims and Palestinians move out of the Middle East as they are threatened by Muslim and Palestinian extremists and considered traitors for wanting peace with Israel.

What is annoying for me Granny is when someone who does not know me or Israelis presumes we hate Palestinians or need  to be lectured about their conflict. They have lived it. They will resolve it. The best thing you can do is see them both as equals, both with the identical problems, and both in need of the same respect and need for peace and security.

Now you ask me Granny I think the key issues which know one understands are water and the environment of the West Bank. Both need immediate help if anyone is to continue living there.

Also believe this, I was spit on in the face by both sides equally. I also saw how people on both sides die equally when a bomb goes off and Granny that is a piss poor way to learn about equality but I did and I have said that on this forum. Nothing humiliates and makes one realize how fragile life is and how stupid and useless political rhetoric is until you see the innocent die and how when they are dead and blown up they smell and look the same.

This is why I have special deference to soldiers. They are the last line before humans kill each other and we blame them for the failure of politicians and humans to get along when they are only the symptom not the cause.

I was a volunteer. I cleaned potatoes, dug ditches, unclogged toilets, cleaned feet ful of worms and athletes foot or pulled parasites out of wounds or dealt with spider bites or dog bites or rate bites. I am no real soldier just a shmuck who volunteered to try make a tiny part of that conflicted land humane. No Zionist taught me to hate Muslims or Palestinians but instead taught me to learn their language, culture and history. None of them who survived the holocaust who went on to fight that I know of did so because they wanted to and I know them-I know their nightmares, I know their regrets. Soldiers who defend do not contrary to belief do so because they hate.

I know Egyptian soldiers who surrendered in the Sinai because they had no water to oncoming Israeli tanks. They ran to the Israelis for water.

I do  know in Jordan as I have been there that Palestinians do not like Jordanians and vice versa. Its tense. Jordanians can hate or like Israelis as well. There is no black and white stereotype. I was in Beirut before it blew up. Some hated me for being Jewish others could have cared less.

In Egypt I know certain neighbourhoods in Alexandria and Cairo where being a Jew or Christian could get your throat slit and yet I know Egyptians who could care less I am Jewish and just want to know if I will pay them to drive in their Taxi. They are only to glad to explain their culture. They don't dwell on Moses nor do I.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 27, 2019, 12:53:47 pm
All good information to have here.

Thanks Rue and waldo for posting all of that.

Sources appreciated.

I try to keep in mind that in Israel, as in Canada and elsewhere, there are right wing and left wing voices: There are hawks who see war as the only strategy, until the enemy Is entirely vanquished, dispersed, destroyed ... and there are others who see diplomacy - honest dialogue, problem solving and compromise as the best strategy.

There are protests against Israeli militancy within Israel too.

We need to be able to hear all voices to understand this difficult situation.

This is a fair and insightful post regarding the complexity and different narratives contained in the different sides of this conflict.  Thank you for posting this.  This is the kind of thinking that will get all of the sides closer to a solution of the problems.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 27, 2019, 01:08:37 pm
I will now try provide some information as to the settlement disputes. I appreciate because of its complexity it is lengthy and so Granny or Waldo will not read it but it will show why Granny is focusing on issues without understanding how they evolved and try explain why they have come about and how they are not as simple as she claims:

Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Israel claims from a pro-Israel source, that's not trying to be objective.

Settlements on the West Bank seem, to me, a kind of colonial mission creep to establish more land and control over the West Bank.  That most of these settlements are on unused land or close to the green line doesn't change the fact that the West bank should be Palestinian territory according to any partition plan drawn up, and the building of these settlements clearly harms any peace prospects as it provokes and angers the Palestinians.

Netanyahu was clear in his last election promises that if he were elected he would ensure there would be no 2-state solution agreement.  He's not a man of peace, he's a hardliner who is dedicated to Israel taking control of all of what is seem as historical Israel territory at the expense of Palestinians, and these settlements are a tool for him to achieve that.  There's a reason him and Obama had friction in their relationship, and it takes a lot to get on the bad side of Obama.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 27, 2019, 01:13:44 pm
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Jewish claims from a pro-Jewish source, not trying to be objective.

of course; member Rue is anything but unbiased... all his "sources" are pro-Jewish/Israeli. Independent sources don't lend themselves to GishGallop!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 27, 2019, 01:28:49 pm
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Jewish claims from a pro-Jewish source, not trying to be objective.
Whoa!!
Words are important. Choose them carefully!
My purpose in this thread is to respect that there is not one "Jewish" position. One "source" does not represent all Jewish people, nor even all Israeli people. Israelis and Jewish people everywhere are as politically divided as Canadians are.

I have to call both you and waldo on this stereotyping.
Big error.
Do you understand?
Would you both please restate your posts to avoid the stereotyping and dismissing all 'pro-Jewish sources'?

You are both really creeping me out. (((

Another purpose of this thread is to sort out appropriate ways and language to have the conversation, so that anyone reading or participating understands different points of views without being put off by careless wording that can be attacked or dismissed as anti-Semitism.
That stops the conversation in its tracks, and cannot be tolerated.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 27, 2019, 01:43:02 pm
Whoa!!
Words are important. Choose them carefully!
My purpose in this thread is to respect that there is not one "Jewish" position. One "source" does not represent all Jewish people, nor even all Israeli people. Israelis and Jewish people everywhere are as politically divided as Canadians are.

I have to call both you and waldo on this stereotyping.
Big error.
Do you understand?
Would you both please restate your posts to avoid the stereotyping and dismissing all 'pro-Jewish sources'?

You are both really creeping me out. (((

Another purpose of this thread is to sort out appropriate ways and language to have the conversation, so that anyone reading or participating understands different points of views without being put off by careless wording that can be attacked or dismissed as anti-Semitism.
That stops the conversation in its tracks, and cannot be tolerated.

I'm certainly not trying to be anti-semitic. Rue knows that.  If anyone would interpret that in my post, well it's incorrect, i'm all for helpful dialogue but i'm also not going to coddle my posts for any hyper-sensitive folk out there who might misinterpret me.

I also get your post about stereotyping sides.  I don't really know how to word my post another way. Suggestions are welcomed.  Well i changed it to "pro-Israel", that's as good as i can think of.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 27, 2019, 04:55:51 pm
There are no good or bad guys. Most Israelis if you take a poll still want a two state solution while most Palestinians when polled do not.

It would be interesting to see if Israelis and Palestinians agree on the definition of a two state solution.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 27, 2019, 06:35:59 pm
I'm certainly not trying to be anti-semitic. Rue knows that.  If anyone would interpret that in my post, well it's incorrect, i'm all for helpful dialogue but i'm also not going to coddle my posts for any hyper-sensitive folk out there who might misinterpret me.

I also get your post about stereotyping sides.  I don't really know how to word my post another way. Suggestions are welcomed.  Well i changed it to "pro-Israel", that's as good as i can think of.

It's complicated and I'm not sure how to word it either but ...
There are Israelis who do not agree with Netanyahu's  perpetual war against Palestinians. (See my post #146 on previous page.) I'd like their views to be respected and not lumped into a 'pro or anti-Israel' stance either. Israelis are not united in one view (nor are Canadians).

I'd say Rue is an apologist for right wing Israeli actions, pro-Netanyahu, apparently since he defends current violence against Palestinians at great length, as somehow historically justified - 'They deserve it' - according to his posts.
He certainly does not represent all Israelis nor all Jews, and they shouldn't be lumped in with his views.




Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 27, 2019, 06:47:38 pm
of course; member Rue is anything but unbiased... all his "sources" are pro-Jewish/Israeli. Independent sources don't lend themselves to GishGallop!
Waldo, please don't smear all Jews or Israelis as if they share Rue's views:
They don't.
Rue justifies the violent actions of Netanyahu's hard line right wing regime.
Not all Israelis nor all Jews agree.

In this thread I'm interested in highlighting the views and actions of Israelis and Jews who would prefer more diplomacy and less violence.
(See my post #146 re the Israeli opposition to Netanyahu.)

There is reason for hope that more moderate Jews and Israelis can promote peaceful resolutions. I want to support that. They are very brave people.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 27, 2019, 08:56:41 pm
Waldo, please don't smear all Jews or Israelis as if they share Rue's views:
They don't.
Rue justifies the violent actions of Netanyahu's hard line right wing regime.
Not all Israelis nor all Jews agree.

In this thread I'm interested in highlighting the views and actions of Israelis and Jews who would prefer more diplomacy and less violence.
(See my post #146 re the Israeli opposition to Netanyahu.)

There is reason for hope that more moderate Jews and Israelis can promote peaceful resolutions. I want to support that. They are very brave people.

I am sure most Jews in Isreal desire peace.  However, it's mainly right-wing or Orthodox Jews who are settling in the West Bank.  One main omission to this argument is the role of Evangelical Christians in North America, who contribute billions to pro-Israeli organizations, and are at times, more militant than Jews themselves.

Netanyahu is a right-wing bigot, and hopefully the Israelis vote him out of office.  Just to be clear, I agree that Israel is committing Human Rights violations in the Occupied Territories.  I'm mainly playing "Devil's Advocate" by pointing out that this kind of oppression that Israel is guilty of, has happened in nearly every corner of the World.  I simply do not understand why Jews and Israel are always singled out, considering China, Russia, and the USA, and even Canada are guilty of similar, if not worse Human Rights violations.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 27, 2019, 11:29:51 pm
I am sure most Jews in Isreal desire peace.  However, it's mainly right-wing or Orthodox Jews who are settling in the West Bank.
I have also heard/read of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Are they different groups?

 
Quote
One main omission to this argument is the role of Evangelical Christians in North America, who contribute billions to pro-Israeli organizations, and are at times, more militant than Jews themselves.
True. And not for a nice reason.
It's because when the Messiah comes (first time for Jews, second time for Christians), all the Jews will then be followers of the new Christ, thus Christian converts, and then the 'end times', the rapture and more stupid stuff.
Ugly stupid delusional nonsense.
Evangelicals are all about converting everyone to their way.
Not nice. Anti-Judaism, possibly anti-Semitic.
Quote
Netanyahu is a right-wing bigot, and hopefully the Israelis vote him out of office.
Unfortunately, not yet.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/27/netanyahu-threatens-to-call-fresh-election-as-coalition-talks-falter
Quote
Just to be clear, I agree that Israel is committing Human Rights violations in the Occupied Territories.

We can agree on that generic terminology.
Quote
I'm mainly playing "Devil's Advocate" by pointing out that this kind of oppression that Israel is guilty of, has happened in nearly every corner of the World.  I simply do not understand why Jews and Israel are always singled out, considering China, Russia, and the USA, and even Canada are guilty of similar, if not worse Human Rights violations.
Canada (government, to give industry "certainty") is still trying to complete it's genocide against Indigenous Peoples, trying to stealthily legislate them out of existence. I'm aware of that, and active in opposing that ... and it was there that I met a young Palestinian woman ... and then the bombing of Gaza ... and 8 brave and well-known Jewish Canadian women occupied the Israeli Consulate in Toronto in protest ...
So I learned that being opposed to Israel's actions doesn't make you an antiSemite.

Why Israel and not others?
Because of what I learned, I suppose.
Because family members fought WWII "against discrimination". Because as a child, a land of their own seemed like a really good thing for survivors of the horrors of the Holocaust. Though I was told "but there are other people already living there", I so hoped they would get along, be happy. I was just a kid, but the memory of that conversation, that hope, lingered.
Israel is still very personal to all who had people close to them who fought that war. We wanted Jews to have a safe place of their own. We wanted it to work.
But turning on other people, violating their human rights ... ??? That's become abhorrent.

Still learning.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 28, 2019, 12:54:46 am
I have also heard/read of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Are they different groups?

Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.


Quote
We can agree on that generic terminology.Canada (government, to give industry "certainty") is still trying to complete it's genocide against Indigenous Peoples, trying to stealthily legislate them out of existence.

That is not even remotely correct. Canada has officially apologized for the treatment of our Indigenous peoples, and are trying to make financial amends with the Natives for 20+ years.

Quote
Why Israel and not others?
Because of what I learned, I suppose.
Because family members fought WWII "against discrimination". Because as a child, a land of their own seemed like a really good thing for survivors of the horrors of the Holocaust. Though I was told "but there are other people already living there", I so hoped they would get along, be happy. I was just a kid, but the memory of that conversation, that hope, lingered.


Israel is still very personal to all who had people close to them who fought that war. We wanted Jews to have a safe place of their own. We wanted it to work.
 

Still learning.

As a direct result of the Shoah, opposition to a Jewish homeland was a very unpopular position after 1945.  Once the British were victorious over the Ottomans, and took control of several areas of the Middle East, they promised the land of Palestine to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.  The British reneged on this promise with the White Paper shortly before the start of World War 2, afraid that if the stuck to their guns, the Arabs would align themselves with the Germans.

After WW2, it was a different story, as Britain could not afford to oversee most of it's former colonies, as the war had depleted it economically. They relinquished all of South Asia, many parts of Africa and the Middle East.

Quote
But turning on other people, violating their human rights ... ??? That's become abhorrent.

It's happening pretty much in every corner of the Earth.  From Russia (the Crimea), China (Tibet), United States (too numerous to mention), many African nations, Southeast Asia, and arguably some parts of Latin America.  Unfortunately, it will almost certainly get worse with the Human population increasing by nearly 100 million per year, and the negative effects of Global Warming, making populated areas uninhabitable to human beings,

The problem with the troubles of the Holy Land, is it would take ages to explain.  When one group of people (Arabs) declare war or hostilities on a much stronger ethnic group (Jews and Israel), it will usually does not end well.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 28, 2019, 02:14:44 am
Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.
What's it to them? Oh ... the river to the sea... the prophesy ... converting all the Jews and then the rapture stuff.
Sick sh!t, imo.

Quote
That is not even remotely correct. Canada has officially apologized for the treatment of our Indigenous peoples, and are trying to make financial amends with the Natives for 20+ years.
https://aptnnews.ca/2019/05/27/the-white-paper-2-0-needs-to-be-stopped-say-indigenous-leaders/
Legislated genocide. All rights settled for peanuts and curtailed.
Because industry needs "certainty".
Because White Paper 1, Pierre Trudeau 1969, Failed.

Quote
As a direct result of the Shoah, opposition to a Jewish homeland was a very unpopular position after 1945.  Once the British were victorious over the Ottomans, and took control of several areas of the Middle East, they promised the land of Palestine to the Jews in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.  The British reneged on this promise with the White Paper shortly before the start of World War 2, afraid that if the stuck to their guns, the Arabs would align themselves with the Germans.

After WW2, it was a different story, as Britain could not afford to oversee most of it's former colonies, as the war had depleted it economically. They relinquished all of South Asia, many parts of Africa and the Middle East.

It's happening pretty much in every corner of the Earth.  From Russia (the Crimea), China (Tibet), United States (too numerous to mention), many African nations, Southeast Asia, and arguably some parts of Latin America.  Unfortunately, it will almost certainly get worse with the Human population increasing by nearly 100 million per year, and the negative effects of Global Warming, making populated areas uninhabitable to human beings,

The problem with the troubles of the Holy Land, is it would take ages to explain.  When one group of people (Arabs) declare war or hostilities on a much stronger ethnic group (Jews and Israel), it will usually does not end well.

That's ominous.

I'm glad there are people making efforts to take a more positive approach. I'm interested in that.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 28, 2019, 02:22:12 am
I admire your optimism, Granny.

However, I am cynical. Groups have been fighting for control of the Holy Land for thousands of years. I cannot see an end in sight to this conflict.  At least not in my lifetime. 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 28, 2019, 04:18:34 am
Most Orthodox Jews, not all. I've heard that a fair amount of Israelis want peace, and are against activities pertaining to the Occupied Territories, but the Government is being largely influenced by North American Jews and Christians who supply money to political parties (i.e. Likud), to pressure them to expand the settlements in the West Bank.

A lot of non-Jews are naive to this kind of stuff, but when they point it out they're called anti-semites.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 28, 2019, 10:25:39 am
A lot of non-Jews are naive to this kind of stuff, but when they point it out they're called anti-semites.
The right-wing government of Netanyahu (and his suoporters ) interprets any questioning of Israel's actions as anti-Semitism. That's a political ploy  repeated ad nauseam around the world in internet forums and elsewhere, to squash any criticism of Netanyahu's violent regime, and especially to squash the Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement that was having an effect on Israel. In Canada, Trudeau was convinced (malleable, excitable and corruptible as he is), and the Liberals supported a Conservative motion (arising possibly from the evangelical element) to "condemn" any organizations, groups or individuals in Canada promoting BDS.
Trudeau:
We need to understand, as well, that anti-Semitism has also manifested itself not just as in targeting of individuals but it is also targeting a new condemnation or an anti-Semitism against the very state of Israel," he said.
The prime minister added that Canada must be very careful "not to sanction this new frame around anti-Semitism and undue criticism of Israel."

To support his case, Trudeau pointed to the so-called "Three Ds" test for separating criticism of the Jewish state and anti-Semitism: demonization, double standards, and delegitimization of Israel.

When you have movements like BDS that single out Israel, that seek to delegitimize and in some cases demonize, when you have students on campus dealing with things like Israel apartheid weeks that make them fearful of actually attending campus events because of their religion in Canada, we have to recognize that there are things that aren't acceptable, not because of foreign policy concerns but because of Canadian values," Trudeau said.


That's our current context in Canada, all-party support to "condemn" us (whatever that means) for refusing to buy Israeli goods and for encouraging others to do so as well.
Apparently no 3D's test required for BDS, considered intrinsically "demonization, double standards, and delegitimization of Israel." (Exactly the verbal hammers used on internet forums to squash criticism.)

I don't agree. Criticizing the actions of Netanyahu's regime against Palestinians does not only arise from antiSemitism, but from legitimate concern about violations of Palestinian human rights.
The real irony is that there is criticism of Netanyahu's regime and participation in BDS among Jewish Canadians too, )and support for diplomacy over violence among Israelis.) NetanyahuTrudeau's pronouncement that effectively curtails Canadians' freedom of expression (participation in BDS) curtails the freedom of expression of centre-left Jewish Canadians. I don't think they act from anti-Semitism, though they do get attacked as 'not real Jews' or 'the wrong kind of Jews' by the long arm of the right wing Netanyahu regime that reaches into every Jewish community internationally.

So that should be a clue ... that Trudeau's pronouncement that BDS is intrinsically anti-Semitic is just a load of very successful right wing campaigning from Netanyahu, to silence criticism of his regime everywhere, including silencing his political opposition among centre-left Jews in Canada and elsewhere in the world, though they just held a big rally in Israel.

This thread started with information from Independent Jewish Voices Canada who oppose the violence of Netanyahu's political-military regime, develop relations and understandings with Palestinian Canadians and participate in promoting BDS ... Jewish and Palestinian Canadians who are now 'condemned' by Canada's Parliament.
Trudeau doesn't speak for them.

There is broad opposition to being told that BDS is antiSemitic:
https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=2019052308060312

But apparently Trudeau and Parliament only listen to right-wing Jewish and Israeli voices.

I'm not denying the existence of antiSemitism. Browse a white supremacist forum and that irrational hatred is blatant and disgusting and has absolutely nothing to do with Israel's current actions. They hate all nonAryan people. I am aware that antisemitism is a significant factor in the Arab world, and that Palestinian protest does cross that line. But I'm also aware of groups organizing to try to bridge that gap.

So I am appalled by this Canadian Parliament motion to silence our freedom to express criticism and to protest Israel's actions against Palestinians, that effectively undermines groups trying to bridge the gap:

That, given Canada and Israel share a long history of friendship as well as economic and diplomatic relations, the House reject the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, which promotes the demonization  and delegitimization of the State of Israel, and call upon the government to condemn any and all attempts by Canadian organizations, groups or individuals to promote the BDS movement, both here at home and abroad.

I guess this thread is my protest against that motion, and Parliament can demonize and condemn me all they want.  Lol
Wtfit
  Hellfire and brimstone evangelical anti-Semitic agenda.
Liberals and Conservatives passed that.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 01:10:15 am
Canada’s updated trade agreement with Israel violates international law
Treating Israeli settlements as part of Israel in the new Canada-Israel free-trade deal entangles Canada in serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law.

https://theconversation.com/canadas-updated-trade-agreement-with-israel-violates-international-law-117547?utm_medium=ampfacebook&utm_source=facebook

While Israel rejects that it’s the occupying power, there is a virtual wall-to-wall consensus among the international community — including the United Nations, the European Union, the International Court of Justice, the International Committee of the Red Cross and Canada — that the laws of occupation, including the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, apply in full to the Palestinian territory.
...
Among the most important prohibitions in the Fourth Geneva Convention is the absolute rule, in Article 49(6), against the transfer by the occupying power of any of its civilian population into the occupied territory.
...
Ultimately, the settlements are the engine of the Israeli occupation. They serve as the irreducible “facts on the ground” to assert Israeli sovereignty and to forestall Palestinian self-determination.

On May 9, the Canadian Senate passed Bill C-85 — the Canada-Israel Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act. Bill C-85 amends and updates the original 1997 free-trade agreement between Canada and Israel. On May 27, it received royal assent.
...
First, the new agreement lacks a human rights provision, which would commit both parties to uphold international human rights and humanitarian law.

Secondly, the agreement allows goods and services produced in the Israeli settlements to enter Canada on the same tariff-free terms as goods and services originating in Israel. Enabling the benefits of the agreement to extend to Israel’s illegal settlements in the Palestinian territory is not only contrary to Canada’s general duty to uphold international law, it expressly violates both international and Canadian law, as well as the direction of the UN Security Council.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 05:17:08 am
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/hours-left-to-deadline-netanyahu-races-to-dissolve-knesset-live-updates-1.7302559
The Knesset voted Wednesday night to dissolve itself after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu failed to form a governing coalition, sending Israel to a new election mere seven weeks after the last one.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 31, 2019, 08:33:55 am
Appreciate the arguments, but these are all pro-Israel claims from a pro-Israel source, that's not trying to be objective.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html

The very same argument could be made for all the pro Palestinian claims from pro Palestinian sources on this thread.

So the point MG? Whose version is more valid?

In fact the sources I provided you are indeed pro Israeli but they are not anti Palestinian.

Absolutely they share the counter-side to the other side and both sides need to be considered equally.

You know that but in this debate its usually one sided with the starting assumption that everything Israel does and
therefore anyone who supports its right to exist free of terrorism hates Palestinians.

Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.

I say it again, the status quo on the West Bank has serious problems,but by ignoring Palestinian terrorists and the role
they play on the West Bank and in generating unfair policies as a consequence of security issues to deal with them needs
to be understood.

These are not excuses for the conflict, but symptoms of the conflict.

If and when terrorists are disarmed, as was the case in Northern Ireland, then things can be done to address unfair
policies to Palestinians that now exist because of the need to contain terrorists.

For example, if terrorists disarmed on the West Bank, if it became a non militarized zone, both  Jordan and Israel
would open roads and access to their airports for trade which they currently can not do. They could also consider
water irrigation and electric grid projects and address environmental issues.

Terrorists do not want to lose their monopoly on Palestinian government. They require a constant state of war with Israel
to justify their existence. Then they empower right wing extremists in Israel who justify their beliefs as a reaction to these terrorists.

Please before you write off anything pro Israeli, read it.Much of what I provided was in fact  NOT anti Palestinian just because
its pro Israeli.

Thank you.



 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 11:20:29 am
The very same argument could be made for all the pro Palestinian claims from pro Palestinian sources on this thread.

So the point MG? Whose version is more valid?

In fact the sources I provided you are indeed pro Israeli but they are not anti Palestinian.

Absolutely they share the counter-side to the other side and both sides need to be considered equally.

You know that but in this debate its usually one sided with the starting assumption that everything Israel does and
therefore anyone who supports its right to exist free of terrorism hates Palestinians.

You've started with a twisted and inflammatory accusation about what's in MG's head. Are you trying to provoke a reaction, so you can then claim to be the victim?
If you sincerely don't want to get splashed, don't splash the water with a paddle.

I have different opinions than you, and the right to express them without enduring any more personal insults and attacks from you.
Be aware: I'm not soft pedaling to coddle you and  prevent you from overreacting, Rue. I call it as I see it, and you are  responsible for moderating your own reactions.

Israel pushes Palestinians out of their homes into increasingly smaller and more crowded spaces, limits their access to water, hydro, food, medical care and other necessities of life ... Israel does not get to claim victim status. It's very clear who is the oppressor and who is being oppressed. This is not an 'equal' situation.

Quote
Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.
Evidence to support this please?

Quote
I say it again, the status quo on the West Bank has serious problems,but by ignoring Palestinian terrorists and the role
they play on the West Bank and in generating unfair policies as a consequence of security issues to deal with them needs to be understood.
The problemmatic "status quo" on the West Bank is due to Israel's aggressive and oppressive actions  (ie, continuing ethnic cleansing and usurping land via creeping invasion of settlements), it is illegal, inflammatory and a problem Israel creates for itself via illegal actions. Of course oppressed people are going to react, fight back, with whatever means they can muster.
Stop the invasion.

Quote
These are not excuses for the conflict, but symptoms of the conflict.
If and when terrorists are disarmed, as was the case in Northern Ireland, then things can be done to address unfair
policies to Palestinians that now exist because of the need to contain terrorists.
Other way around: First, stop the aggression, invasion and oppression so Palestinians can live comfortably and safely.
Israel is the aggressor, the oppressor, but not the victor: demanding subjugation and disarmament of Palestinians in conditions that still threaten their lives?  ... That's just not reasonable.
Israel can stop the aggression, improve the conditions of life for Palestinians, to reduce its own security risks.
Palestinians have every right to defend themselves from Israel's creeping invasion.

Quote
For example, if terrorists disarmed on the West Bank, if it became a non militarized zone, both  Jordan and Israel
would open roads and access to their airports for trade which they currently can not do. They could also consider
water irrigation and electric grid projects and address environmental issues.
As above: Stop the invasion and oppression that inflames opposition.

Quote
Terrorists do not want to lose their monopoly on Palestinian government. They require a constant state of war with Israel
to justify their existence. Then they empower right wing extremists in Israel who justify their beliefs as a reaction to these terrorists.
You are seriously blaming Palestinians for inflaming right-wing Israeli angst and violent overreaction? REALLY?
I actually have to tell you that adult Israelis are responsible for their own over-reactions?!

Quote
Please before you write off anything pro Israeli, read it.Much of what I provided was in fact  NOT anti Palestinian just because
its pro Israeli.

Thank you.

Likewise, right-wing Israel can accept valid criticism of its illegal expansion and oppression of Palestinians without having a worldwide hissy fit and demanding suppression of Canadians' freedom of expression via BDS and other forms of protest.
Your excuses for Israeli aggression and demands for Palestinian subjugation put you in the extreme right-wing camp. I cannot believe that any of your efforts for peace have included equality. Palestinians are just supposed to give up and subjugate themselves in your unrealistic view of 'peace'.

What if ... Netanyahu goes down and Israel becomes more moderate, less demanding, more collaborative in its peace efforts?
Will you be on the outside then?
What is your view of Netanyahu's opposition?
Is there better hope for peace and equality if moderate political forces have more power?

Is defending right-wing extremist Israeli aggressions and overreactions really defending the best of what  Israel aspires to?
Is there a better side of Israel that needs to be supported and promoted, to help overcome the destructive political forces, so that (eg) the status quo on the West Bank no longer has serious problems?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: ?Impact on May 31, 2019, 03:58:44 pm
Not all Palestinians are victims of Israel. In fact more Palestinians are victims of fellow Palestinian terrorists than
Israeli soldiers.

Israeli soldiers don't create the laws that victimize Palestinians.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 31, 2019, 04:23:29 pm
Granny before you accuse me of being lengthy, all I have done is respond directly to your comments and I did not respond to all of them.

Before I respond let me clear something up. You accused MG of being inappropriate now me. Both of us are simply debating and making points. Nothing in what he said was inflammatory and nothing I said was inflammatory. Ironically your comments on your last thread engage in the very thing you accused him and now me of. Granny with due respect you are reading way far to in to what either of us is saying and you need to step back and police yourself and we will ourselves thank you.

I will start by responding to these  inflammatory comments you stated:

"1-Israel does not get to claim victim status.
2-It's very clear who is the oppressor and who is being oppressed. This is not an 'equal' situation.
3- The problemmatic "status quo" on the West Bank is due to Israel's aggressive and oppressive actions  (ie, continuing ethnic cleansing and usurping land via creeping invasion of settlements), it is illegal, inflammatory and a problem Israel creates for itself via illegal actions.
4-Of course oppressed people are going to react, fight back, with whatever means they can muster."

In regards to 1, Israel has never claimed victim status nor has anyone on this board claimed Israel is a victim. That is your subjective projective of what you think you are reading from me or perhaps someone else.

In regards to 2, you may think its clear and black and white, but some of us say the conflict is far more complex and nuanced with many intricate layers of inter-connected cause and effects than you. Perhaps you find it so black and white because you have made it clear you think you already know what the conflict is about and one consider anything other than your preconceived parameters of discussion.

In regards to 3, you again use language that blames one side and you throw out the false accusation of ethnic cleansing. I provided the population growth of Palestinians on the West Bank. They prove your allegation of ethnic cleansing is nonsense. I also indicated the actual amount of land physically occupied by settlers. Its 6% so when you use words like "squeezing out and creeping invasions" is simply shows you are reading web-sites that tell you this and you accept them. I tried to explain the actual physical size of occupation of settlers and you choose to ignore me.

In regards to 4,  in fact the vast majority of Palestinians  do not engage in terrorism but the vast majority are injured and killed by Palestinian terrorists. In fact your comments insult peaceful Palestinians. What you state implies that Palestinians are not enlightened enough to use the tactics of Ghandi or  Martin Luther King. What you are saying rationalizes terrorism. Every day on this planet people face injustice and they do not choose or react to violence and embrace terror. Terrorism can not and should never be rationalized.

You then stated, " First, stop the aggression, invasion and oppression so Palestinians can live comfortably and safely." Well  Israel did and withdrew from Gaza and Hamas has been attacking Israel ever since it left. Israel withdrew from Lebanon and the day Israel left Hezbollah has been attacking it ever since. In fact Israel did repeatedly try to withdraw from the West Bank through protracted negotiations with Arafat. That was what the Oslo accord was supposed to commence. It was Arafat who stated to the world he bargained in bad faith and would never live side by side peacefully with Israel and the only solution is taking back all of Israel and Jordan and ripped that treaty up. Hamas and the PA have Charters that state clearly that until all of Israel and Jordan are placed in a Sunni Muslim state, so it is absurd to tell Israel not to defend itself.  Israel  can not sit by and  nothing while its people are attacked by Hamas and other terror cells which happens every day Granny. You have no idea how small and compact the land is you talk of and just how close Israel and its people are from terror attacks. No peace came about in Northern Ireland until the IRA disbanded. There was a reason for that. Israel has has an obligation to protect its citizens from terror.

You then stated:

"Israel is the aggressor, the oppressor, but not the victor: demanding subjugation and disarmament of Palestinians in conditions that still threaten their lives?  ... That's just not reasonable."

Some of Israeli state policies and some actions by the IDF have been aggressive, oppressive.  Your statement is extremist and polarizing though because Israel is not always the aggressor. Further, the state of Israel has never used rhetoric that describes itself as the victor over Palestinians, just the opposite. You clearly do not read their newspapers or watch their t.v. or listen to their radio shows and yes Granny we all agree no one is a victor in any war, everyone suffers. No one claims otherwise. You make those  comments as if  Israelis or the state of Israel would disagree with that. They do not.

Also I want you to provide evidence as you allegation that Israel has asked Palestinians to disarm to endanger their lives. You know you keep asking me for proof, and when I give it you won't read it. I also  expect you at least to back up your allegations. What makes this  one nasty is that IDF soldiers have died protecting Palestinians precisely because Hamas and other terrorists put Palestinians directly in the line of fire. The IDF have placed themselves in front of bullets and bombs to protect Palestinians. That Granny has been verified by Palestinians.

You stated:

"Israel can stop the aggression, improve the conditions of life for Palestinians, to reduce its own security risks. " Yes it can do a better job on certain actions to reduce tensions. Again you state this as if its being questioned or contested in this thread. Its not.

You state:

"Palestinians have every right to defend themselves from Israel's creeping invasion. " Do you speak for Palestinians? Do you really know what they want or do you assume you know and can speak for them because you read things on the internet?Sorry but when it comes to the future of Palestinians and what they seek and want, I think you should quote them and not speak for them and if you do try quite all their opinions not just the ones you would agree with.


You stated:"You are seriously blaming Palestinians for inflaming right-wing Israeli angst and violent overreaction? REALLY? " No, I have never done that. You again do not read what I write and project the above meaning on it. Provide one word from me where I blamed Palestinians for anything.  Granny this is not the first time you have misrepresented what I said. When I ask you to back up your claim, you don't. Please stop misrepresenting what  I state.  What I have stated on this forum over and over is that I do NOT speak for Palestinians or Israelis, I speak for myself, and I do not BLAME any Palestinian or Israeli but to be crystal clear I accuse terrorists of making peace impossible. I blame terrorists not innocent civilians. Read please what I write.

Then you stated: "I actually have to tell you that adult Israelis are responsible for their own over-reactions?!" Which Israelis? You see you make a statement claiming Israelis over react. You have no examples. What you have done is present a negative stereotype of Israelis. In fact you engage in the very inflammatory rhetoric you accused me or MG of. Which adults do you refer to and what comments did they say?

You stated:"Likewise, right-wing Israel can accept valid criticism of its illegal expansion and oppression of Palestinians without having a world wide hissy fit and demanding suppression of Canadians' freedom of expression via BDS and other forms of protest." Again you use deliberately inflammatory language. In fact many Israeli right wingers have defended Palestinian rights. You just do not know them Many engage in dialogue with Palestinians. Your reference to hissy fits and demanding suppression of Canadian's freedom of expression of BDS is based on what? Do you have evidence or is this another one of your projections? It was the The Canadian  Parliament that with a few absentees unanimously condemned BDS. One of them was Omar Alleghbra, Trudeau's Middle East advisor and hardly a supporter of Israel. He stated what many state not just in Canada but world-wide and that is because  BDS calls not just for the boycott of Israeli products, but the end of Israel as a Jewish state it is not engaging in peaceful dialogue. That is why even pro Palestinians reject it. You can be pro Palestinian but not anti Israel.  You want to defend BDS no one is stopping you but please don't try portray them as only wanting a boycott and please don't exaggerate and claim Right Wing Israelis are in Canada suppressing your views. No one is.

You then stated:

"Your excuses for Israeli aggression and demands for Palestinian subjugation put you in the extreme right-wing camp. " You now stereotype and label me Granny. Who gives you that right? In fact Granny I am considered in Israel and in Canada and in the Jewish and non Jewish communities as a centralist. I am neither right or left. If you took the time to read what I write instead of imposing your preconceived stereotypes on me you would know that. Your stereotyping of me tries to turn the thread into a personal issue about me. It doesn't matter what I think. I am not the issue. What Palestinians and Israelis think is what matters. Stop engaging me personally. For a person who lectures me on not personally insulting others, how about you practice what you preach please.

Then you stated: "I cannot believe that any of your efforts for peace have included equality. Palestinians are just supposed to give up and subjugate themselves in your unrealistic view of 'peace'. " You again project negative slurs against me as to my motives and make a statement I never stated as if it is my belief.  It is the very exercise you lecture me and others not to do and then you do it. Please do not tell me you know what my "real agenda" is or what my motives are. That is inappropriate and personal and without basis and no more justified than me saying your motive is to support Palestinian terrorists and destroy Israel.

You asked: "What if ... Netanyahu goes down and Israel becomes more moderate, less demanding, more collaborative in its peace efforts? "
It did. Arafat then ripped up the peace treaty and told the world he bargained in bad faith and never had any intention of making peace. Where were you? Netanyahu was elected precisely because Israelis felt after what Arafat did they had no other choice but to get tougher. If someone promised to make peace with you and shook your hand, then told the world his word meant sweet phack all, what would you do?

You asked me: "What is your view of Netanyahu's opposition? " If you want me to discuss the positions of the other Israeli political parties and their views that will take some time and another thread. I do support a party other then Netanyahu's that is considered centralist. However my opinions are not relevant Granny and you could if you wanted go find out what the other parties are in Israel.

You asked: "Is there better hope for peace and equality if moderate political forces have more power?" There would be a more moderate party in power in Israel if there was a non terrorist moderate party representing Palestinians, for sure.

You asked: "Is defending right-wing extremist Israeli aggressions and overreactions really defending the best of what  Israel aspires to? "
No, just as defending terrorist aggression and overreactions by Palestinian extremists does not really defend what they aspire to be. Why ask such a question. Did you really want an answer or were you making a rhetorical allegation?


You asked: "Is there a better side of Israel that needs to be supported and promoted, to help overcome the destructive political forces, so that (eg) the status quo on the West Bank no longer has serious problems?"  Israeli people  need to be recognized by Palestininians as having a right to a  Jewish state free of terrorist attacks if there is to be a starting point to negotiations at this time with them. At this time the current Palestinian leaders demand Israel recognizes them as a Muslim state in all of Israel, Jordan and the West Bank and says the only thing it will negotiate is how to remove Jews from Israel. So as long as that is the status quo there can be no reason for Israel to sit down at this point. No it will not negotiate its extinction which is what Mr. Abbas has asked they do. If Palestinians once and for all recognized the state of Israel as Jewish  then Israelis could help them build their nation next to Israel's and then extremists on both sides would become obsolete.

Israelis built roads and engaged in peace initiatives side by side Palestinians. They built roads, schools, mosques, hospitals for Palestinians. Hamas chose to blow that all up and openly parade Palestinians in public who got along with Israelis and place burning tires around their necks and accused them of being collaborators.  Are you aware  what happens to Palestinians who openly express moderate or peaceful views with Israel?

I edited this response at 9.01 pm May 31 to try take out unintended personal remarks.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on May 31, 2019, 04:26:17 pm
Hey, where's Waldo with the word counter?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 05:13:16 pm
Hey, where's Waldo with the word counter?
Lol
Ya, It's long but mine was a bit long too, so I'm not complaining about that.
And It's more sensible than previous.
I'll take me some time to figure out how to respond concisely so ... leaving that to later.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 07:56:56 pm
Settler Violence: Absence of Law Enforcement

Quote
Violence by settlers (and sometimes by other Israeli civilians) toward Palestinians has long since become part of daily life under occupation in the West Bank. These actions range from blocking roads, throwing stones at cars and houses, raiding villages and farmland, torching fields and olive groves, and damaging crops and property to physical assault, sometimes to the point of hurling Molotov cocktails or using live fire. Over the years, this widespread violence toward Palestinians has resulted in injuries to life and limb, as well as damage to property and land.

Under international law, Israel has a duty to protect Palestinians in the West Bank from this conduct. However, Israeli authorities routinely shirk this responsibility, even when the violent actions can be anticipated. Thousands of testimonies, videos and reports, as well as many years of close monitoring by B’Tselem and other organizations, reveal that Israeli security forces not only allow settlers to harm Palestinians and their property as a matter of course – they often provide the perpetrators escort and back-up. In some cases, they even join in on the attack. In other instances, security forces have prevented anticipated harm by removing the targeted Palestinians, rather than the Israeli assailants.

The law enforcement agencies, for their part, rarely make settlers face consequences for attacking Palestinians. In almost all cases, the investigations – if one was opened, in the first place – have not resulted in any action taken against the perpetrators. This undeclared policy of lenience toward settler violence aimed at Palestinians has been documented in numerous reports by human rights organizations, as well as in official state reports (such as the Karp Report of 1982 and the Shamgar Report of 1994).

In a ten-year review published in May 2015, human rights organization Yesh Din found that some 85% of investigations into such cases (including violence, arson, damage to property, mutilation of trees and takeover of land) ended with no further action taken, and that the odds of a police complaint filed by a Palestinian resulting in the conviction of an Israeli civilian were a mere 1.9%. Given the futility of this effort, many Palestinians choose to forgo filing a complaint altogether.

Since it was founded in 1989, B’Tselem has been documenting incidents of settler violence against Palestinians and advocating for security forces to fulfill their obligation to protect Palestinians and their property from such injury. For many years, B’Tselem has stressed the duty of Israeli authorities to make the necessary preparations, including allocating forces, to prevent attacks that can be predicted – especially when they are carried out in the open – and arrest the assailants. We have repeatedly called attention to the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies to quickly and efficiently investigate attacks after they take place. B’Tselem has provided the police and the military with documentation of such attacks, including video footage filmed by volunteers. We have also helped Palestinian victims file complaints with the police and have monitored the investigations – including appealing closed cases. After more than 25 years of this work, there is no escaping the conclusion that the authorities merely make a show of law enforcement in this context and that, with few exceptions, they have no interest in seriously investigating settler violence against Palestinians.

A stark example recurs every year during the olive harvest. After repeated settler attacks, the military forbade Palestinian farmers from entering their own land if it lies near a settlement – instead of protecting the farmers by enforcing the law on the settlers. In 2004, the heads of five Palestinian local councils petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), demanding that the military allow them to access their lands and protect them from settler attacks during the olive harvest. The court accepted the petition about two years later, ruling that the military should not, in general, deny Palestinians access to their land in the name of protecting them. The justices also ruled that the security establishment must “give clear, unequivocal instructions to the forces operating in the field” and also “deploy forces to protect the property of the Palestinian inhabitants” (HCJ 9593/04 Murar et al. v. IDF Commander for Judea and Samaria et al.). As a result, the state created a “coordination system” for supposedly enabling Palestinians throughout the West Bank to access their land for several days, twice a year – during the harvest and plowing seasons. This requires prior coordination with the military, which assigns them a security detail.

In practice, the system does little to resolve this violent reality and is largely another empty show of law enforcement. First, it furthers the assumption that the solution lies with restricting the Palestinian victims, rather than the violent settlers. Second, it is relevant to two specific periods every year, leaving settlers free to roam and vandalize land and trees the rest of the time, while the Palestinian owners are barred access. Third, the military requires Palestinians to undergo such a complicated coordination process and meet so many requirements that, in many cases, attaining access is impossible.

Settler violence has a pervasive impact on life in the West Bank, creating a lingering sense of intimidation. Countless attacks have left their traumatic mark on individual Palestinians and on the collective memory. As a result, many Palestinians now avoid approaching “danger zones” near settlements. Landowners do not dare enter these areas without military escort or Israeli civilians accompanying them. As a result, in some plots, the yield has become so poor that the owners have given up trying to reach the land and tend it. This dynamic has created invisible walls throughout the West Bank, beyond which Palestinians know they face violence to the point of risking their lives.

The rogue settlements euphemistically known as “illegal outposts” – since they were formally established in breach of Israeli law, although they enjoy broad government support and funding – contribute to this reality. These 100 or so outposts, established throughout the West Bank since the 1990s, have effectively taken over large swathes of land, expanding the scope of settlement control. This dispossession has been accompanied by violence towards Palestinian landowners that includes physical assaults, threats, attacks on shepherds and theft of land. Apart from very rare exceptions in which outposts were removed further to legal proceedings, virtually all outposts remain standing and are gradually gaining formal recognition as a substantial part of the settlement enterprise.

Violent actions of settlers against Palestinians are not exceptions to a rule. Rather, they form part of a broader strategy in which the state colludes, as it stands to benefit from the result. Over time, this unchecked violence is gradually driving Palestinians from more and more locations in the West Bank, making it easier for the state to take over land and resources.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 07:58:27 pm
Settler violence Backed by the State

Quote
Violence by settlers (and sometimes by other Israeli civilians) toward Palestinians has long since become part of daily life under occupation in the West Bank. These actions range from blocking roads, throwing stones at cars and houses, raiding villages and farmland, torching fields and olive groves, and damaging crops and property to physical assault, sometimes to the point of hurling Molotov cocktails or using live fire. Over the years, this widespread violence toward Palestinians has resulted in injuries to life and limb, as well as damage to property and land.

Under international law, Israel has a duty to protect Palestinians in the West Bank from this conduct. However, Israeli authorities routinely shirk this responsibility, even when the violent actions can be anticipated. Thousands of testimonies, videos and reports, as well as many years of close monitoring by B’Tselem and other organizations, reveal that Israeli security forces not only allow settlers to harm Palestinians and their property as a matter of course – they often provide the perpetrators escort and back-up. In some cases, they even join in on the attack. In other instances, security forces have prevented anticipated harm by removing the targeted Palestinians, rather than the Israeli assailants.

The law enforcement agencies, for their part, rarely make settlers face consequences for attacking Palestinians. In almost all cases, the investigations – if one was opened, in the first place – have not resulted in any action taken against the perpetrators. This undeclared policy of lenience toward settler violence aimed at Palestinians has been documented in numerous reports by human rights organizations, as well as in official state reports (such as the Karp Report of 1982 and the Shamgar Report of 1994).

In a ten-year review published in May 2015, human rights organization Yesh Din found that some 85% of investigations into such cases (including violence, arson, damage to property, mutilation of trees and takeover of land) ended with no further action taken, and that the odds of a police complaint filed by a Palestinian resulting in the conviction of an Israeli civilian were a mere 1.9%. Given the futility of this effort, many Palestinians choose to forgo filing a complaint altogether.

Since it was founded in 1989, B’Tselem has been documenting incidents of settler violence against Palestinians and advocating for security forces to fulfill their obligation to protect Palestinians and their property from such injury. For many years, B’Tselem has stressed the duty of Israeli authorities to make the necessary preparations, including allocating forces, to prevent attacks that can be predicted – especially when they are carried out in the open – and arrest the assailants. We have repeatedly called attention to the responsibility of the law enforcement agencies to quickly and efficiently investigate attacks after they take place. B’Tselem has provided the police and the military with documentation of such attacks, including video footage filmed by volunteers. We have also helped Palestinian victims file complaints with the police and have monitored the investigations – including appealing closed cases. After more than 25 years of this work, there is no escaping the conclusion that the authorities merely make a show of law enforcement in this context and that, with few exceptions, they have no interest in seriously investigating settler violence against Palestinians.

A stark example recurs every year during the olive harvest. After repeated settler attacks, the military forbade Palestinian farmers from entering their own land if it lies near a settlement – instead of protecting the farmers by enforcing the law on the settlers. In 2004, the heads of five Palestinian local councils petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), demanding that the military allow them to access their lands and protect them from settler attacks during the olive harvest. The court accepted the petition about two years later, ruling that the military should not, in general, deny Palestinians access to their land in the name of protecting them. The justices also ruled that the security establishment must “give clear, unequivocal instructions to the forces operating in the field” and also “deploy forces to protect the property of the Palestinian inhabitants” (HCJ 9593/04 Murar et al. v. IDF Commander for Judea and Samaria et al.). As a result, the state created a “coordination system” for supposedly enabling Palestinians throughout the West Bank to access their land for several days, twice a year – during the harvest and plowing seasons. This requires prior coordination with the military, which assigns them a security detail.

In practice, the system does little to resolve this violent reality and is largely another empty show of law enforcement. First, it furthers the assumption that the solution lies with restricting the Palestinian victims, rather than the violent settlers. Second, it is relevant to two specific periods every year, leaving settlers free to roam and vandalize land and trees the rest of the time, while the Palestinian owners are barred access. Third, the military requires Palestinians to undergo such a complicated coordination process and meet so many requirements that, in many cases, attaining access is impossible.

Settler violence has a pervasive impact on life in the West Bank, creating a lingering sense of intimidation. Countless attacks have left their traumatic mark on individual Palestinians and on the collective memory. As a result, many Palestinians now avoid approaching “danger zones” near settlements. Landowners do not dare enter these areas without military escort or Israeli civilians accompanying them. As a result, in some plots, the yield has become so poor that the owners have given up trying to reach the land and tend it. This dynamic has created invisible walls throughout the West Bank, beyond which Palestinians know they face violence to the point of risking their lives.

The rogue settlements euphemistically known as “illegal outposts” – since they were formally established in breach of Israeli law, although they enjoy broad government support and funding – contribute to this reality. These 100 or so outposts, established throughout the West Bank since the 1990s, have effectively taken over large swathes of land, expanding the scope of settlement control. This dispossession has been accompanied by violence towards Palestinian landowners that includes physical assaults, threats, attacks on shepherds and theft of land. Apart from very rare exceptions in which outposts were removed further to legal proceedings, virtually all outposts remain standing and are gradually gaining formal recognition as a substantial part of the settlement enterprise.

Violent actions of settlers against Palestinians are not exceptions to a rule. Rather, they form part of a broader strategy in which the state colludes, as it stands to benefit from the result. Over time, this unchecked violence is gradually driving Palestinians from more and more locations in the West Bank, making it easier for the state to take over land and resources.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:00:01 pm
Settlements

Quote

From 1967 to the end of 2017, more than 200 Israeli settlements were established in the West Bank. They include:

    131 settlements officially recognized by the Israeli Ministry of the Interior;
    About 110 settlements built without official authorization but with governmental support and assistance (known as “illegal outposts”);
    Several settlement enclaves inside the city of Hebron;
    11 neighborhoods in the areas of the West Bank that Israel annexed to the municipal jurisdiction of Jerusalem in 1967, and several settlement enclaves within Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem.

Another 16 settlements that had been established in the Gaza Strip, and four in the northern West Bank, were dismantled in 2005 as part of the Disengagement Plan.

More than 620,000 Israeli citizens currently reside in settlements. Of these, about 209,270 live in the parts of the West Bank that Israel annexed to the municipal jurisdiction of Jerusalem (according to Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research figures from late 2016), and 413,400 live throughout the rest of the West Bank (according to Central Bureau of Statistics figures from late 2017).

The settlements are the single most important factor in shaping life in the West Bank. Their destructive impact on the human rights of Palestinians extends far beyond the thousands of hectares, including farmland and grazing areas, that Israel appropriated from Palestinians in order to build them. More land has been expropriated to pave hundreds of kilometers of roads for settler use only; roadblocks, checkpoints, and other measures that limit Palestinian movement only have been erected based on the location of settlements; Palestinian landowners have been effectively denied access to much of their farmland, both within settlements and outside them; and the winding route of the Separation Barrier, which severely violates the rights of Palestinians living near it, was established inside the West Bank in order to leave as many settlements as possible – and large tracts of land for expanding them – on the western side of the barrier.

All the settlement practices in the West Bank share the same objective, although those employed in the urban areas of Hebron and East Jerusalem – where Palestinians have also been dispossessed of their homes and of other structures – take a different form.

In the early years of the occupation, the main ploy that Israel used to take over land for building settlements was to seize the land “for military purposes”. Military seizure orders were issued for some 3,100 hectares of land, most of which were earmarked for building settlements. In June 1979, the military issued a seizure order for privately-owned land near Nablus, which was slated for establishing the settlement of Elon Moreh. Several Palestinians petitioned Israel’s High Court of Justice (HCJ), arguing that the seizure violated international law, since it served a civilian purpose of building a settlement rather than true military needs. The court had rejected this argument in previous petitions, accepting the state’s claim that settlements contribute to security.

In this case, however, top security officials stated that building a settlement at that location would serve no military purpose. Also, some of the settlers joined the proceedings as respondents, explaining to the court that it was their intention to settle in the area permanently, for religious and political reasons, rather than to promote security. Given these unique circumstances, the court could not rule that the establishment of the settlement would serve military needs – although it did not rule out such a possibility in general. The justices restricted their decision to the specific case of Elon Moreh, ruling that the land seizure was meant to serve a civilian rather than military purpose and therefore breached international law. The court did not completely deny the possibility of seizing private land for building settlements, but held that when the dominant reason for issuing a seizure order is the establishment of a civilian settlement rather than military considerations, the order is unlawful.

This ruling made it difficult for Israel to continue seizing Palestinian land as it had done until that point. Instead, it required the state to obtain agreement between top security officials on the military advantage of every planned settlement, and to ensure that the settlers kept their intentions to themselves. To circumvent this, the government announced that it would thereafter build settlements only on land that had been declared state land.

However, when the state sought such land, it discovered that only some 68,700 hectares of land were considered state land at the time, mostly in the Jordan Valley and in the Judean Desert. This frustrated the governmental plan to build settlements along the central mountain ridge of the West Bank. Therefore, the state came up with a new system for declaring state land.

This system was founded on rewriting legal provisions and applying a completely different approach to the Ottoman Land Code, which governs land ownership in the West Bank, than the standard interpretation applied until then. The new approach made it much easier to declare state land, even when the land in question was considered private or collective Palestinian property under British and later Jordanian rule. One method for achieving this was requiring Palestinians to regularly cultivate farmland as a prerequisite to acquiring ownership rights; another was to disregard the provisions of local law, which grants Palestinian communities collective rights to use grazing areas and other public land. By employing these new tactics, from 1979 to 2002 Israel declared more than 90,000 hectares of land as state land. There are now some 120,000 hectares of state land in Area C, constituting 36.5% of Area C and 22% of the entire West Bank. An additional 20,000 hectares of state land are located in areas A and B, where planning is in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

A comparative survey carried out by B’Tselem in the area of Ramallah revealed massive differences between the amount of land that Jordan defined as government property in areas registered before the occupation, and the amount that Israel declared state land in areas that the Jordanians had not managed to register prior to 1967. The results of the survey indicate that a significant proportion of the land that Israel declared as state land is actually private Palestinian property that was taken from its lawful owners through legal maneuvering, in breach of both local and international law.

This process of land takeover also contravenes basic tenets of due process and natural justice. In many cases, the Palestinian residents were not aware that their land had been registered as state property and when they found out, it was too late to appeal. The burden of proof always lies with Palestinians claiming ownership; even if landowners did manage to prove their ownership over the land, in some cases it was registered state land based on the claim that it had been handed over to a settlement “in good faith”.

Even if all the declarations of state land were lawful, public land – including the land declared as government property prior to 1967 – is meant to serve the population of the occupied territory, i.e. the Palestinian public, not the State of Israel or its citizens. However, Israel prohibits Palestinian use of this land almost entirely and considers it Israeli property. In keeping with this policy, Israel has allocated to settlement vast tracts of this “state land”, stretching far beyond their built-up sections. The lands allocated to settlements have been declared closed military zones and are off limits to Palestinians, except by special permit. In contrast, Israeli citizens, Jews from around the world and tourists can enter them freely.

At present, settlements cover 53,813 hectares of land – almost 10% of the West Bank. Their regional councils control another 165,037 hectares, including vast open areas that have not been attached to any particular settlement. This brings the total area under the direct control of settlements to 40% of the West Bank, and 63% of Area C.

Along with this governmental land grab, settlers have exploited the forced separation between Palestinians and their land to build houses, outposts and roads, sow fields and groves, graze livestock and take over natural water sources – all outside the vast areas already allocated to the settlements. This is attended by routine violence against Palestinians. These actions play a major role in the implementation of Israel’s policy in the West Bank by complementing official measures. The settlers’ apparently independent actions serve as a privatized system for taking over land, allowing Israel to establish and expand entire settlement blocs through an unofficial sidetrack while formally disavowing these actions.

Unlike the restrictive planning policy enforced upon Palestinian communities, Israeli settlements are fully represented in the planning process, enjoying detailed outline plans and advanced infrastructure. Although the state uses the same professional and legal terms to refer to both Israeli and Palestinian construction in the West Bank with– such as building and planning laws, urban master plans, planning procedures and illegal construction – it applies them very differently in practice. When it comes to Israeli settlements, the state turns a blind eye and offers support and retroactive approval, all as part of an overarching policy to de-facto annex parts of the West Bank to Israel’s sovereign territory. Palestinian communities, on the other hand, are subjected to painstaking bureaucracy, stalled plans and widespread demolitions, in keeping with Israel’s policy to prevent Palestinian development in the West Bank and continue dispossessing Palestinians of their land.

The establishment of the settlements contravenes international humanitarian law (IHL), which states that an occupying power may not relocate its own citizens to the occupied territory or make permanent changes to that territory, unless these are needed for imperative military needs, in the narrow sense of the term, or undertaken for the benefit of the local population.

The existence of settlements also leads to the violation of many human rights of Palestinians, including the rights to property, equality, an adequate standard of living and freedom of movement. In addition, the radical changes that Israel has made to the map of the West Bank preclude any real possibility of establishing an independent, viable Palestinian state in fulfilment of the right to self-determination. Although the West Bank is not part of Israel's sovereign territory, Israeli has applied most of its domestic laws to the settlements and their residents. As a result, the settlers enjoy almost all the same privileges as citizens living within Israel. Meanwhile, Palestinians continue to live under martial law and are thereby systematically deprived of their rights and denied the ability to have any real impact on policymaking with respect to the territory in which they live. In creating this reality, Israel has formed a regime in which a person’s rights depend on his or her national identity.

Israel has refrained from formally annexing the West Bank (except in East Jerusalem). In practice, however, it treats the settlements established throughout Area C as extensions of its sovereign territory and has virtually eliminated the distinction for Israeli citizens – while concentrating the Palestinian population in 165 disconnected “islands” (Areas A and B). This double movement, of Israeli settlers taking over more and more West Bank land and Palestinians being pushed aside, has been a consistent mainstay of Israeli policy in the West Bank since 1967, with all Israeli legislative, legal, planning, funding and defense bodies working towards that end.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:05:41 pm
The Duty to End the Occupation

Quote
In June 2017, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip reached the half-century mark, and entered its fifty-first year. A third, and even fourth, generation of Palestinians and Israelis have been born into this reality, and it is the only one they have ever known. It is a reality in which Israel holds sway over 13 million people living in the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, yet only eight million of them – those who are Israeli citizens, regardless of whether or not they live within the boundaries of the Green Line – participate in the political process that determines the future of this geographic area. The inherent features of this reality make it impossible to call Israel a democracy.

Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in June 1967. It has maintained control – in one form or another – over these territories and their people ever since. For more than half a century, Israel has kept up a reality of dispossession, oppression and human rights abuse in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank:

In the Gaza Strip, which it controls from without, Israel applies a callous policy and assumes no responsibility for the devastating effects it has on the lives of the local residents. Israel denies Gaza residents any possibility of independent subsistence, yet is willing to meet only their barest needs, even on essentials such as water and electricity. This policy prevents the physical reconstruction in Gaza necessary following the devastation Israel wreaked there over the course of several rounds of combat, and also thwarts Gaza’s economic recovery after years of being under the Israeli-imposed blockade. Despite the dire situation in the Gaza Strip, and the projections that it will become unlivable in several years, Israel refuses to change its policies. No elaborate legal argument can obscure the reality of what is happening in Gaza: It is like living in a third-world country on the brink of collapse. This reality is not the result of a natural disaster. It is entirely man-made.

In the West Bank, Israel is implementing policies whose long-term objectives are plain to see. It is doing so both through its own direct control as well as via the Palestinian Authority. Israel’s conduct and the official positions expressed by increasing numbers of Israeli leaders confirm that it does not view the occupation as temporary. Instead, it treats the West Bank as if it were part of its sovereign territory: grabbing land, exploiting natural resources for its own needs and building permanent settlements designated for Israelis only. At the same time, for the past fifty years, Palestinian West Bank residents have been living under rigid military rule that primarily serves the interests of the State of Israel and Israeli settlers.

East Jerusalem, which is part of the occupied West Bank, was annexed by Israel in breach of international law. The annexation notwithstanding, Israel treats the Palestinian living in the city as unwanted immigrants and systematically applies policies designed to dispossess them of their homes and drive them from their city. Israeli officials deny state responsibility for this situation, and similarly deny responsibility for the violation of Palestinians’ human rights attendant on this reality. Instead, they pin these policies on the need to maintain Israel’s security interests. It is an attempt to put the onus for Israel’s continued control over the Palestinians – directly in the West Bank or indirectly in Gaza – largely on the Palestinians themselves. Security concerns, however, have very little to do with the policies Israel has been implementing in the territories under its control since 1967, and despite Israel’s persistent “public diplomacy”, or “hasbara” efforts, the facts are clear: Israel is the one who controls the lives of millions of Palestinians, dictating their daily lives and futures.

Israel could choose to end the occupation, lift the blockade on Gaza, and set millions of Palestinians free of its control. Israel could also choose to prolong the current state of affairs, relentlessly furthering the dispossession and oppression. It has chosen to do the latter. After more than fifty years, it is impossible to view this reality as temporary or to continue to believe that Israel has any intention of changing it. The political dynamics in Israel with respect to the Palestinian territories range from taking no notice of it – especially where the situation in Gaza and Areas A and B of the West Bank is concerned – to attempts to further the dispossession of Palestinians, mostly in East Jerusalem and in Area C.

Nor does the legal sphere offer much hope for a solution. While many Israeli authorities combine to facilitate control over Palestinians, it is the legal system’s readiness to give a legal stamp of approval to the overwhelming denial of Palestinian rights that makes it possible. Home demolitions, administrative detention, expulsion of communities, torture, road closures and denial of the right to compensation for harm caused by security forces are only some of the measures sanctioned by Israel’s High Court of Justice and consistently defended by the State Attorney’s Office. Israel’s legal system declared its doors open to Palestinians for the express purpose of safeguarding their rights. But lofty sentiments expressed in grand phrases are one thing. Reality is quite another. In practice, Israel’s legal system has become a key player in facilitating and approving control over the Palestinians.

On an international level, contrary to Israel’s claims and despite states’ international responsibilities for human rights, Israel receives wide international support and very little has been done to challenge its policies. Round after round of negotiations has failed to advance the realization of Palestinians’ rights. The Oslo Accords ultimately even made matters worse in terms of the denial of rights, merely serving to give Israel more time – two decades of it – to promote its own interests.

The current situation is difficult, but a realistic assessment must take into account what the future holds. Israel’s goals have been clearly spelled out: Further entrenching its control and promoting its interests while establishing ever more facts on the ground; continuing to control millions of Palestinian subjects bereft of rights; and weakening the resistance, both in Israel and around the world, to the ongoing occupation. And all the while seeking to minimize the diplomatic price that ought to be exacted for such violent, illegal and immoral policies.

Faced with this bleak future, B’Tselem is fighting for a better future, one predicated on human rights, democracy, freedom and equality. All the people living on the bit of land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River have both individual and collective rights, including the right to self-determination. There are several political scenarios that could bring about a future that is based on the realization of these rights. It is not for B’Tselem to say which is scenario is best. One thing is clear though, carrying on with the occupation is not an option.

The occupation must end. Israel’s continued control over millions of people, whose lives are subject to its wants and needs – is entirely unjustifiable, inexcusable and unacceptable. A continuation of the situation wrongly called the “status quo” ensures one thing, and one thing only, for whoever lives on this piece of land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean: a continued downward spiral into an inherently violent, unjust and hopeless reality. Unless a nonviolent way out of the current reality is found, the violence of the past half century – both organized and spontaneous – might be just a preview of much more to come. The effort to create a different future for this piece of land is not just an urgent moral imperative; it is a matter of life and death.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:17:17 pm
Attacks by Israeli settlers surge as West Bank tensions boil

Quote
DEIR DIBWAN, West Bank — Palestinians in this town woke one morning last month to find their mosque vandalized, with a Star of David painted on the exterior alongside Hebrew graffiti accusing it of preaching “incitement.”

“We are at an alarming point,” said Barakat Mahmoud, the mosque’s imam. “We’ve never had direct confrontation with the settlers in this town.”

The incident was one in a recent spate of attacks blamed on Israeli settlers that officials on both sides of the conflict say are spiking. Israel’s security agency, Shin Bet, documented 295 of what it calls “Jewish terror” incidents last year, a 40 percent increase.

Although no Israeli government figures were available for January, the United Nations had recorded at least 30 incidents this year in which Israeli settlers were accused of causing casualties or damaging property, with a total of 14 Palestinians injured and one killed.

The most serious incident took place in January near the rural West Bank village of al-Mughayyir, when a Palestinian was shot dead, allegedly by settlers belonging to a volunteer security team for the nearby Israeli settlements. According to the United Nations, nine other Palestinians suffered gunshot wounds when the settlers opened fire during a confrontation on the outskirts of the village.

Israeli monitoring groups say the surge in settler violence, in part, reflects a lack of Israeli law enforcement and a response to a rash of particularly distressing attacks by Palestinians against Israelis.

While the number of Palestinian attacks in the West Bank dropped last year, their severity appeared to increase. According to Shin Bet figures, six civilians and five soldiers were killed. The agency said there were 1,153 Palestinian “terror” incidents in the West Bank, a figure that includes stone-throwing. 

Especially upsetting for many Israelis was the death of a baby boy who was born prematurely after his pregnant Israeli mother was injured in a December drive-by shooting near the settlement of Ofra, one of several such attacks. The recent rape and slaying of a 19-year-old girl from another West Bank settlement as she walked in woods in Jerusalem has shocked many Israelis and prompted calls for revenge from the extreme right.

Such incidents can trigger what are known as “price tag” attacks, a name originally given to vandalism and violence carried out by Jewish extremists against the Palestinian community and sometimes the Israeli security forces in response to violence or punitive action against settlements or settlers. Now, the phrase refers more generally to reprisals against Palestinian communities.

The United Nations and other organizations that track violence by the settlers have expressed alarm about the increase of Israeli attacks in the West Bank, which has been occupied by Israel since the 1967 war. Some 450,000 Israelis live in settlements deemed illegal by most of the international community.

Previous U.S. administrations criticized the expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, saying they were an obstacle to peace. But that position has changed during the Trump administration. David M. Friedman, the U.S. ambassador to Israel, has said he sees settlements as part of Israel.

A more sympathetic U.S. policy toward settlements may have emboldened the extremist youths who carry out reprisal attacks, according to Lior Amihai, executive director of Yesh Din, an Israeli human rights group that tracks abuses against Palestinians in the West Bank.

“Among that settler ideology, there are people that look and say there is no reason why anyone should stop us from meeting our political aspirations,” Amihai said. “There is a right-wing government in Israel and a friend in the White House.”

“When they don’t meet them, they are frustrated,” he said, noting the existence of right-wing groups that use attacks to advance their political interests.

But, he added, attacks may also be increasing because Israeli authorities are turning a blind eye.

In 2016 and 2017, settler violence had dropped sharply, which some observers attributed to a crackdown by Israeli authorities. 

After a 2015 arson attack in the village of Duma that killed a Palestinian couple and their 18-month-old child and was blamed on Jewish extremists, the Israeli army used administrative orders to ban those involved in such violent activities from entering the West Bank or detain them without due process. 

Trials are rare, but last month, a 16-year-old Israeli student at a West Bank religious school was indicted in the death of a Palestinian mother of nine who died after a rock hit her while she was driving. The teenager’s DNA was found on the rock. Four others arrested in the case have been released for lack of evidence.

An Israeli army official who declined to be named, in line with Israeli military protocol, said that most attacks by settlers are against property and that only rarely are people hurt. He said it is “simply not true” that the army does not intervene to protect Palestinians.

Yizrael Gantz, a settler leader in the West Bank, sought to downplay the extent of the problem, saying the violence is perpetrated by a small group of troubled youths.
'Things got out of control'

It is in the olive groves, fields and hilltops surrounding Arab villages that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is fought day by day. The incident last month in al-Mughayyir is an example of how easy it is for events to spiral out of control.

Awad Naasam, a resident of the village, said he was spraying pesticides around his olive trees just after 2 p.m. when about 15 settlers wearing balaclavas tried to steal his tractor and then, when it got stuck, smashed it with iron bars. His cousin, who jointly owns the land, called the Israeli district office that deals with security coordination between Israelis and Palestinians for help. Naasam and his cousin say they were too scared to retaliate against their attackers.

But about 3 p.m., the volunteer security detail for the nearby Israeli settlements said it received a call from a young Israeli near al-Mughayyir in distress, saying he had been stabbed.

“We don’t know if the stabbing of the youth was connected to the tractor. All we know is, from a security perspective, that we were alerted and things got out of control,” said Moshe Tamir, the head of 49 “fast response” teams for settlements in the area. The teams include 2,000 armed volunteers, among them many retired army combat soldiers.

Tamir said his volunteers advanced down the hillside toward the village, concerned that Israelis had been kidnapped.

Al-Mughayyir’s mosque announced over its loudspeakers that settlers were “attacking,” and hundreds of villagers headed to the outskirts of town, throwing stones and using slingshots, villagers recalled. “We were afraid they were going to burn our houses,” a 55-year-old resident said.

The settlement security team opened fire with live ammunition, and Hamdi Nassan, 38, was shot dead. Several others were wounded, including Abdel Abu Alya, who said he was shot in the shoulder.

Members of the settlement security team later said they felt threatened.

Palestinians said the Israeli army did not intervene to stop the settlers. The army said it was investigating the incident.

Gantz, who heads the Binyamin regional council covering several dozen West Bank settlements north of Jerusalem, blamed the Israeli violence on a group of about 20 vagrant troublemakers who he said are estranged from their families and live in caves.

He said they are violent because of their emotional needs. “They want someone that will take care of them,” he said.

The Israeli human rights group B’Tselem stresses that the activity goes beyond a few “rotten apples” and says the Israeli government ignores extremist violence because it helps settlers expand their West Bank presence.

When Gantz met with an Israeli army division commander just before the al-Mughayyir incident, the settler leader said, he could “smell” that a “bad period” was on its way because the settlers were upset over Palestinian attacks.

“We had five terror attacks here in a small area,” he said, adding that the local settlers’ sense of “self-security” had been dented. “I can’t predict what someone will do when he’s afraid. Now everything is more sensitive,” he said.

Talk of retaliation for Palestinian violence is in the air.

At a demonstration in the West Bank city of Hebron last month, Rabbi Ariel Levy called for reprisals in response to the rape and slaying of 19-year-old Ori Ansbacher, allegedly by one of the city’s Arab residents. In comments published by the extreme right-wing website Jewish Voice, Levy urged, “Real revenge, not of individuals but of the entire public.”
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:22:48 pm
As West Bank Violence Surges, Israel Is Silent on Attacks by Jews

Quote
By Isabel Kershner

    Feb. 2, 2019

AL MUGHAYIR, West Bank — A gang of a dozen or so armed Jewish settlers descended from a hilltop outpost to the Palestinian village below and opened fire, witnesses said. Israeli soldiers arrived, and instead of stopping the settlers, the witnesses said, they either stood by or clashed with the villagers.

In the melee, Hamdy Naasan, 38, a Palestinian father of four, was shot and killed.

The killing last Saturday was the latest in a wave of settler violence. Attacks by settlers on Palestinians, their property and Israeli security forces increased by 50 percent last year and have threatened to ignite the West Bank, Israeli security officials say.

Days earlier, the Israeli authorities charged a 16-year-old yeshiva student from another Jewish settlement with manslaughter and terrorism, accusing him of hurling a four-pound rock that killed Aisha al-Rabi, a Palestinian mother of eight, one night in October as she rode in her family car along a nearby highway.

While Palestinian and United Nations officials have condemned the violence — Nickolay E. Mladenov, the United Nations envoy to the Middle East, described the shooting in Al Mughayir as “shocking and unacceptable” — Israel’s right-wing government has remained conspicuously silent, wary of alienating settlers and other potential supporters in an election year.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is seeking a fifth term, is vying with other right-wing rivals for the settlers’ support. He is facing bribery investigations and his strongest political challenge in years.

“Thou shalt not murder?” Tamar Zandberg, leader of the left-wing party Meretz, wrote in a Facebook post, noting the resounding lack of condemnation from government officials. “Silence. Everyone sees the election on the horizon, and the settler lobby is stronger than any moral standard.”

By contrast, after a Palestinian home in the village of Duma was firebombed in 2015, killing a toddler and his parents, Mr. Netanyahu and right-wing leaders issued strong condemnations and said Jewish terrorism would not be tolerated.

This time the loudest voices have risen to the defense of the Jewish suspects. Israel’s domestic security agency, the Shin Bet, has found itself on the defensive, accused by right-wing organizations of trampling on the rights of those suspected in the stoning.

Honenu, a right-wing legal aid organization, denounced the fact that the five youths initially detained in the woman’s attack had been denied access to legal counsel for days under court-approved counterterrorism laws. About 100 rabbis, including prominent voices in the religious Zionist and settler establishment, signed an open letter in support of the youths.

The justice minister, Ayelet Shaked, called the mother of one of the detainees, telling her to “be strong” and saying she had discussed his case with the state prosecutor. One legislator from the governing Likud party compared the Shin Bet to the K.G.B. Four of the youths were ultimately released.

Mr. Netanyahu rebuffed the attacks on Shin Bet, praising its efforts to thwart Palestinian terrorism, but did not address the settler violence.

For over a decade, radical young settlers known as the hilltop youth have practiced the doctrine known as “Price Tag,” which calls for exacting a price through violence or vandalism in revenge for Palestinian attacks on Jews or for army or police moves against rogue settlement activity.

A week before the stoning attack, a Palestinian gunman fatally shot two Israeli workers in an Israeli-run factory in the West Bank. In December, two Palestinian attacks on a West Bank road killed two Israeli soldiers and critically wounded a third soldier and a pregnant woman. Her baby was delivered early and died three days later.

Violence is endemic around settlements deep in the West Bank, and Jewish attacks often follow Palestinian ones, said Shlomo Fischer, an expert in radical religious Zionism at the Jewish People Policy Institute in Jerusalem. “The right is tending to view this in terms of a vendetta,” he said.

Security officials partly attribute the surge in settler violence to the recent lifting of restrictions from some main activists.

The authorities had imposed antiterrorism measures after the 2015 Duma attack and the subsequent exposure of a shadowy militant network known as “the Revolt.” The group seeks the collapse of the state of Israel and its replacement with a Jewish kingdom based on religious law.

The extraordinary steps included administrative detentions and orders keeping key radicals out of the West Bank. Those temporary orders have now run out.

The Shin Bet pointed to links between the yeshiva, or religious school, attended by the suspect in the stoning case and the kind of anti-Zionist, messianic ideology behind the Revolt. An Israeli flag scrawled with “death to the Zionists” and a swastika was found in a yeshiva dorm.

Some of the rabbis teaching at the yeshiva, Pri Haaretz, are associated with the extremist margins of the settlement movement. One of the yeshiva’s founding directors, a senior officer in Israel’s military reserves, was suspected of killing a Palestinian man in disputed circumstances in late 2017.

The links became apparent the morning after the killing of Ms. al-Rabi, when a car set out from the settlement of Yitzhar to coach the students in how to deal with Shin Bet interrogations. The occupants included Meir Ettinger, the alleged leader of the Revolt and a grandson of Meir Kahane, the slain American-Israeli rabbi considered the father of far-right Jewish militancy, and Akiva HaCohen, considered one of the architects of the Price Tag policy.

Pri Haaretz sits in a scruffy compound at the entrance of the settlement of Rehelim, a small community with neat rows of houses and a boutique winery.

On a recent weekday, chickens scratched around in the dirt outside a dozen or so trailers housing classrooms and living quarters. Pupils sported the flowing side-locks associated with the hilltop youth. Two severed goats’ heads were impaled on a chain-link fence, gruesome trophies from an apparent practice session in ritual slaughter.

Some residents of Rehelim now want to expel Pri Haaretz from the settlement. One said the school’s ideology was too extreme and was bound to cause trouble. Yeshiva leaders refused to comment.

The suspect whose DNA was found on the rock denied any involvement, according to his lawyers. He has not been publicly identified because he is a minor. One rabbi provided law enforcement with an apparent alibi, declaring that he had been eating and singing with the pupils at the yeshiva, including, to the best of his memory, the one who was later charged, till midnight.

Recounting the events of that night in an interview, Ms. al-Rabi’s widower, Yacoub, described how the stone smashed through the front windshield, striking his wife in the head and causing her brains and blood to spill out “like a waterfall.” She died on the spot.

Mr. al-Rabi said it was incomprehensible that only one person had been charged in her death since many heavy stones were thrown at the car and it was “impossible that only one person was throwing them all.”

The Israeli military and police are now investigating the death of Mr. Naasan.

The settlers say the clash started with an attack on a Jewish teenager who was staying in the settler outpost of Adei Ad over the Sabbath. In a recorded statement, the teenager said he had walked out of Adei Ad to spend some time alone, was accosted by Palestinians, managed to get away, realized his arm was bleeding and ran back to the outpost for help.

Adei Ad representatives initially put out a contradictory statement saying that a local armed response force had set out to rescue a group of hikers and to rule out a report that one was missing, and that it had also been chasing the assailants. They said the force fired in the air after being ambushed by hundreds of violent Palestinians and was joined by soldiers who also opened fire.

In a later statement, they said the response team had operated together with the soldiers “according to the law.”

But residents of Al Mughayir said armed settlers first came down the hill and vandalized a tractor, smashing its windows and puncturing its tires. Farmers ran to ask some soldiers stationed nearby for help, but the soldiers told them to call the police.

Mr. Naasan’s cousin, Yasser Naasan, 34, said he went to check on the tractor but more settlers arrived, fired at him and chased him back to the village.

The mosque loudspeakers called on residents to come out and defend their homes. Palestinians threw stones. Witnesses said soldiers arrived and fired tear gas, stun grenades, rubber bullets and possibly live bullets in the air while settlers shot live ammunition. One resident showed photographs on his cellphone of armed settlers standing shoulder to shoulder with soldiers, and some settlers wearing masks.

“I witnessed a battlefield,” said Farraj Naasan, 53, an uncle of Hamdy Naasan. “There was massive shooting. Ta-ta-ta. I saw three Israeli soldiers firing into the air and three settlers firing directly at people.”

Hamdy Naasan worked in construction and spent seven years in an Israeli prison for security offenses. He was released in 2008. Last Saturday, his uncle said, he was helping evacuate the wounded.

“He carried the first and the second,” he said. “When he went up to get more of the wounded, he was shot.”

Mr. Naasan fell about 50 yards from the last home on the edge of the village. Another witness, Samir Abu Alia, 53, said villagers had to wait 20 minutes, until the shooting subsided, to retrieve his body.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on May 31, 2019, 08:24:10 pm
Lol
Ya, It's long but mine was a bit long too, so I'm not complaining about that.
And It's more sensible than previous.
I'll take me some time to figure out how to respond concisely so ... leaving that to later.

As you can see Granny Waldo and Omni show you the same contempt they do anyone else on this forum. They ignore you and  hijack your thread because they feel it more important to try bait me.  I tried my best to respond directly to your points. This wasn't abut the length of my response, its about two posters who don't want me to respond to you. Its never been about the length its been about trying to control people they don't agree with. I have sent the moderator notification of their trolling and I am sorry it happened but might I suggest you ignore them as they did you.

Please feel free to not respond to any of my points if you do not want to. I only responded out of respect to you. Please however don't let them ignore your right to debate with me. If you want I will be pleased to respond further. If you don't I won't. Eventually their trolling will be dealt with if not by the moderator by everyone ignoring them.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:33:34 pm
you can't get away with your shyte on the 'other board'... you can't post your mega-long 1500-3000+ "word-bombs" on the 'other board'... you can't ply your purposely distracting GishGallop disruption routine on the 'other board'..... SO WHY BRING IT HERE?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: JMT on May 31, 2019, 08:34:16 pm
I've already talked to everyone about the world counter - just don't.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:37:16 pm
I tried my best to respond directly to your points. This wasn't abut the length of my response

no - you purposely dropped another 2500+ word-bomb - purposely! Are you incapable of responding without posting the too long posts you yourself acknowledge... that you yourself apologized for doing? Are you?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2019, 08:41:00 pm
I've already talked to everyone about the world counter - just don't.

or what? As I said, feel free to ban me... so long as the azzhole continues his purposeful posting of too long posts I will most certainly continue to point out their length.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: JMT on May 31, 2019, 08:49:02 pm
You both need to calm down - it's just the internet.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 11:28:32 pm
As you can see Granny Waldo and Omni show you the same contempt they do anyone else on this forum. They ignore you and  hijack your thread because they feel it more important to try bait me.  I tried my best to respond directly to your points. This wasn't abut the length of my response, its about two posters who don't want me to respond to you. Its never been about the length its been about trying to control people they don't agree with. I have sent the moderator notification of their trolling and I am sorry it happened but might I suggest you ignore them as they did you.

Please feel free to not respond to any of my points if you do not want to. I only responded out of respect to you. Please however don't let them ignore your right to debate with me. If you want I will be pleased to respond further. If you don't I won't. Eventually their trolling will be dealt with if not by the moderator by everyone ignoring them.
I quite like omni and waldo's contributions.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 01:00:57 am
or what? As I said, feel free to ban me... so long as the azzhole continues his purposeful posting of too long posts I will most certainly continue to point out their length.
Thanks for the stuff you posted, waldo. Good info.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2019, 06:24:11 am
it's just the internet

it's just a word-counter
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 01, 2019, 08:47:18 am
I quite like omni and waldo's contributions.

With due respect Granny of course you do but that is not the issue.


You don't have to agree with what I say. That's fine. I responded to your 10 points respectfully.

For Waldo to come on this or any thread to tell me how my responses to your points should be and suggest the length of my responses are a deliberate conspiracy to shut you up is past absurd. Y

None of my responses shut down what you said or insulted you and are trying to discuss a complex conflict with you.

I only came here to discuss the points you have raised and debate them respectfully. No more, no less. It is now up to Waldo, you and me to set the right standard to respect different opinions. All I am trying to do is debate the issues of a conflict that define it in a way other than one side is bad and the other good.

If you really are not interested in what I have to say and simply want people on this thread to agree with your perspective then say so and I won't respond further to you on this thread. Thanks.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: JMT on June 01, 2019, 08:59:33 am
it's just a word-counter

I know, and to be honest, I couldn't care less, but more than one person has reported it.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 09:00:00 am
With due respect Granny of course you do. If you want to come on a debate forum and only have people who agree with you respond to you that is unfortunate.

Discussion forums are supposed to allow two way debate.

You don't have to agree with what I say. That's fine. I responded to your points respectfully. Please note I only did that. For Waldo to come on this or any thread self appointed to tell me or anyone how long our responses to your points should be is inappropriate. You can ignore me or read my responses. None of my responses shut down what you said or insulted you.

If you think you need Omni and Waldo to hijack your thread to try censor me, so be it. As a general rule when someone provides a third party source they try make an attempt to show how it applies to the thread and points they are making. Waldo has not done that and has admitted that he has done what he has done to engage in an on-going attack on me. At this point its not about length Granny, its about content.

When Waldo responds or reads things he has agreed with that are long he's never had a concern. It only arose when I matched him response by response in another thread and he took it personally.

It is unfortunate he has brought that onto this thread.

I only came here to discuss the points you have raised and debate them. No more, no less and I have done so with respect.

It is now up to Waldo, you and me so set the right standard to respect different opinions. Clearly you have at times with me and I have tried constantly with you.

All I am trying to do is debate an approach to a conflict that defines it as good versus evil and one side being evil and the other good.

If you really are not interested in any views but those you agree with simply say so and I won't respond further to you on this thread. Thanks.
I've never been much interested in 'debate', but in information and discussion - ie, education.

I'm not at all interested in your opinions about other posters.
You can ignore them, or go complain to JMT, but it does not belong in an adult discussion thread.

I will get to responding to your long post when I get to it.
I'm busy.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 01, 2019, 10:28:18 am
I know, and to be honest, I couldn't care less, but more than one person has reported it.

You said you  could care less - that speaks loudly as to your actual opinion about trolling.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 01, 2019, 10:35:07 am


I'm not at all interested in your opinions about other posters.
You can ignore them, or go complain to JMT, but it does not belong in an adult discussion thread.


Again Granny you say one thing and do another. On the one hand you are not interested in my opinions about other posters but you expect posters to be interested in your opinions of other posters. You continue to remain inconsistent and refuse to practice what you preach.

What I stated most certainly belonged in this thread as it was raised in this thread.

Please don't adapt a patronizing tone with me and  select out  and lecture me for behavior I did not initiate, engage in or condone. Its clear you are not interested in my opinions on this thread, so I will not respond further.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 03:17:50 pm
Take it to the Rules thread.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 03:39:16 pm
Omni, waldo, JMT: pls stop responding to Rue here. (Just a request. Do what you think is best.)

I will persist in having this information and discussion thread, around his posts if necessary. 

Every thread about Israel-Palestine, on every board, is attacked and destroyed. That is not an accident, not just an irritant. The same forces have Parliament attempting to limit Canadians' freedom of expression in criticizing the current extremist right-wing Israeli regime.

This thread is going to continue.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 02, 2019, 02:39:14 pm
I have decided not to respond to Rue's long response to my fairly long post. His response is here

https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/the-world/international-jewish-voices/?message=48175

and includes much or all of my post. Read it at your leisure.

Our different opinions are clear,  and will remain as such.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 03, 2019, 08:23:32 am
Some anti-Trump reaction perhaps, also differences between younger-older people, and no doubt concerns about synagogue attacks, and perhaps Netanyahu's policies. But still, overall, fairly high support for Israel.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-growing-number-of-u-s-jews-support-evacuation-of-west-bank-settlements-study-finds-1.7314699

This trend of disengagement from Israel was most pronounced among younger and secular American Jews. Only 44 percent of people between the age of 18 and 29 and 42 percent of the secular respondents said that Israel played a significant role in their Jewish identity.
...
The share of American Jews who believe Israel “should be willing to dismantle all the settlements” as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians rose from 15 percent in 2018 to 25 percent in 2019. By contrast, only 6 percent of Israeli Jews were in favor of such a move. Nearly two-thirds of American Jews said they supported a two-state solution that included that establishment of a demilitarized Palestinians state in the West Bank while only 39 percent of Israeli Jews did.
...
The survey further revealed glaring differences in how American and Israeli Jews perceive the policies of U.S. President Donald Trump. Nearly 80 percent of Israeli Jews said they approved of his handling of U.S.-Israel relations, as compared to only 37 percent of American Jews. A much larger share of Israelis Jews favored the American president’s decision to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights than did American Jews.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 03, 2019, 09:00:33 am
Haaretz is admittedly a left-wing 'alternative' voice in Israel, not majority Israeli opinion, perhaps, but worth considering nonetheless.

Democracy for every Israeli and Palestinian: It’s not hard
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-democracy-for-everyone-it-s-not-hard-1.7312557

If the United States decided to deprive the southern states of the right to vote, it would cease being democratic. If Germany did the same against the country’s Jews, it would again be declared a threat to humanity.

Elections in Israel aren’t general elections and so they’re not democratic. The country can continue to masquerade as the only democracy in the Middle East. A new law letting the Knesset override Supreme Court decisions could represent the final declaration of the end of Israeli democracy. The end of the masquerade.

If adjoining towns are distinguished by their right to vote in elections that determine the fate of both, that’s not democracy. If the West Bank settlement of Itamar goes to the polls, but not the West Bank Palestinian city of Nablus, that’s not democracy. If the Jews of the West Bank town of Hebron vote in elections but the Palestinian residents of Hebron don’t, that’s apartheid. It’s that simple and that’s how things are.

As long as Israel uses the cover that the situation in the West Bank is temporary, it’s tolerable. But the ruse is up. No significant political camp in Israel will ever intend to end the occupation, whether on the Zionist right, left or center. Nobody.

As a result, Israel is defining itself as undemocratic. And when the world understands that, it will come at a price. And when Israel understands it, the country will ask itself if it’s willing to pay that price.

Only one path remains: democracy for everyone, for everyone living under Israeli rule. It’s astounding that this even needs to be stated. And even more astounding is that it’s considered subversive. The redress will come in a general election. Just imagine.


Historical justifications can be attempted for the occupation and apartheid situation that exists. But just looking at the situation itself, it is not democracy.
It's not just, and it's not a long term solution as is.
So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 04, 2019, 12:57:53 pm

So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?

What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?

The two are directly interrelated questions not separate.

In regards to the accusation of apartheid:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/22/israel-injustices-not-apartheid-state
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 04, 2019, 04:20:20 pm
So what are Israel's plans to end the occupation, the apartheid, the discrimination against Palestinians?

should we be surprised the memberRue didn't answer... and instead turned your question around to ask, "What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?" Isn't that called "whataboutism"?  ;D
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 04, 2019, 05:56:23 pm
should we be surprised the memberRue didn't answer... and instead turned your question around to ask, "What are the plans of Hamas or the PA to end terrorism?" Isn't that called "whataboutism"?  ;D
Ya, I won't respond to that.
It's also called  ... Netanyahu's Israel has no intention of ever lifting the restrictions on water and other basic necessities of Palestinians, stopping the disproportionate violence and deaths, bulldozing Palestinian homes, incarcerating minors, etc etc etc - occupation, apartheid & discrimination will continue until ... ???
Until US Christian 'Zionists' (who are actually anti-Semites) stop funding Israel's war machine?

Rue and Vid have only explanations/excuses for why it 'has to be' the way it is, why 'It's Palestinians fault', no thoughts for a better future.
Sad, really.

And I am very glad to know that there are more moderate, more hopeful Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian people everywhere who work to understand, to try to improve relations, to put pressure on the Israeli government and businesses.

B'tselem human rights group in Israel publishes informative articles and ongoing stats:
http://www.btselem.org/statistics

Israelis have largely given up trying to convince Palestinians to understand their point of view, that they crave security from their history of persecution. This is largely because the overwhelming force of the occupation means they don't have to convince Palestinians of anything, but Palestinians have few other options.

I think everybody understands that Israeli Jews and Jews worldwide "crave security" from persecution.
What's impossible to accept is that some Israeli Jews justify inflicting persecution on others. 

Is persecution not just ... wrong?

Canadians are not blameless. We've persecuted Indigenous Peoples, and many have tried to justify that too, but it is just wrong.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 05, 2019, 08:39:57 am
Ya, I won't respond to that.
It's also called  ... Netanyahu's Israel has no intention of ever lifting the restrictions on water and other basic necessities of Palestinians, stopping the disproportionate violence and deaths, bulldozing Palestinian homes, incarcerating minors, etc etc etc - occupation, apartheid & discrimination will continue until ... ???
Until US Christian 'Zionists' (who are actually anti-Semites) stop funding Israel's war machine?

Rue and Vid have only explanations/excuses for why it 'has to be' the way it is, why 'It's Palestinians fault', no thoughts for a better future.
Sad, really.

And I am very glad to know that there are more moderate, more hopeful Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian people everywhere who work to understand, to try to improve relations, to put pressure on the Israeli government and businesses.

B'tselem human rights group in Israel publishes informative articles and ongoing stats:
http://www.btselem.org/statistics

Israelis have largely given up trying to convince Palestinians to understand their point of view, that they crave security from their history of persecution. This is largely because the overwhelming force of the occupation means they don't have to convince Palestinians of anything, but Palestinians have few other options.

I think everybody understands that Israeli Jews and Jews worldwide "crave security" from persecution.
What's impossible to accept is that some Israeli Jews justify inflicting persecution on others. 

Is persecution not just ... wrong?

Canadians are not blameless. We've persecuted Indigenous Peoples, and many have tried to justify that too, but it is just wrong.

It is my responsibility to other posters on this forum to practice what I preach and show them respect so I have done it here.. There is another side of this debate I offer. I can be more brief when I do and I am trying. Sorry but  My responses are done the forum spirit of two sided debate. Don't read it if you disagree. It is respect for what you try argue that causes me to resond not ignoring what you say. Granny, nothing in what I share makes excuses  but y es  it does explain that for every action is a reaction in a conflict and to understand it and try achieve peace we need to look at how both trigger one another. Nothing in what I said blames Palestinians as people. It does explain though why Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.
Sad, really.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 05, 2019, 09:13:20 am
Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.

terrorism on both sides... good on ya member Rue, good on ya for acknowledging Israeli contributions!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 05, 2019, 09:41:56 am
It is my responsibility to other posters on this forum to practice what I preach and show them respect so I have done it here.. There is another side of this debate I offer. I can be more brief when I do and I am trying. Sorry but  My responses are done the forum spirit of two sided debate. Don't read it if you disagree. It is respect for what you try argue that causes me to resond not ignoring what you say.
Irrelevant and unnecessary personal comments.
Cease and desist.

Quote
Granny, nothing in what I share makes excuses
Horsesh!t.
Quote
  but y es  it does explain that for every action is a reaction in a conflict and to understand it and try achieve peace we need to look at how both trigger one another.
You could blog the history from your Jewish-American perspective, post a link to it and perhaps quote succinctly from it where relevant.

I would suggest also that it would be useful to have a Palestinian-American post the same history from their perspective.
With cross-links and references to each other's work.
Perhaps even trying to merge them into one 'statement of facts', similar to a court document.

A worthy project don't you think?
And a very good reference piece for discussions here and elsewhere.
So you don't have to repeat the same things over and over and over at great length here.

Quote
Nothing in what I said blames Palestinians as people.
 It does explain though why Israelis and Palestinians are both equally caught in a conflict and how terrorism is at the root cause of it. There are haters on both sides. No hater is right.
Sad, really.

Unacceptable, really.
The time for excuses as to why 'it can't work' is over.

The oppression of Palestinians' human rights by Israel  simply must end.
.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on June 05, 2019, 10:49:08 am
Irrelevant and unnecessary personal comments.
Cease and desist.

Horsesh!t.You could blog the history from your Jewish-American perspective, post a link to it and perhaps quote succinctly from it where relevant.

I would suggest also that it would be useful to have a Palestinian-American post the same history from their perspective.
With cross-links and references to each other's work.
Perhaps even trying to merge them into one 'statement of facts', similar to a court document.

A worthy project don't you think?
And a very good reference piece for discussions here and elsewhere.
So you don't have to repeat the same things over and over and over at great length here.


Unacceptable, really.
The time for excuses as to why 'it can't work' is over.

The oppression of Palestinians' human rights by Israel  simply must end.
.
Now you are just being a condescending bully.  You are not the moderator.  Stop telling others how they can or cannot post.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 05, 2019, 03:06:00 pm
Bernie Sanders
https://shar.es/a0hJyZ
Sanders began by saying that anti-Semitism is not an abstract idea to him. “I am Jewish and very proud of my heritage.” His father emigrated from Poland at the age of 17 to escape discrimination.
"Those in his family who remained in Poland after Hitler came to power were murdered by the Nazis. Antisemitism is not some abstract idea to me. It is very personal. It destroyed a good part of my family.”
...
"We must say loudly and clearly that to oppose the reactionary policies of Netanyahu doesn’t make anyone anti-Israel. Let me say it again, I am vigorously opposed to the reactionary, racist and authoritarian policies of Donald Trump. That does not make me anti-American. I am not anti-Israel because I oppose Netanyahu’s policies."
...
"I see Israel making enormous technological advances with the capacity to serve as an engine of innovation and prosperity for the entire region, yet unable to achieve this goal because of its unresolved conflict with the Palestinians. I see a Palestinian people crushed under a military occupation now over a half century old, creating a daily reality of pain, humiliation and resentment. Let me be clear, I do not know how peace can be achieved in that region when in the Gaza Strip poverty is rampant, 53 percent of the the people are unemployed, the number of unemployed is even higher for young people. And 99 percent of the residents cannot leave that area. That is not a sustainable situation. Ending that occupation and enabling the Palestinians to have independence and self-determination in a sovereign, independent, economically viable state of their own is in the best interest of the United States, Israel, the Palestinians and the entire region. It is a necessary step in insuring that Israel is accepted and integrated into a region it has so much to offer."
...
"The truth is that the parameters of a solution are well-known. They are based in international law, they are based in multiple UN Security Council resolutions, and they are supported by an overwhelmingly international consensus. Two states based on the 1967 lines with Jerusalem as the capital of both states."
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 05, 2019, 03:26:32 pm
Canada activists disrupt top supporter of Israeli war crimes
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-canada-activists-disrupt-top-supporter-israeli-war-crimes
Lascaris says that he used to believe that Cotler, a prominent figure in Canada’s Israel lobby, was a “true defender of human rights.”

“But I’ve learned since then that you refuse to criticize a regime which is running roughshod over the human rights of the Palestinian people, and I find that disgraceful,” Lascaris says.

“Are you prepared to criticize Israel for anything?”

Cotler refuses to answer as people in the audience can be heard chanting, “Palestine will be free,” and demanding that the former justice minister address the question about Gaza.

Eventually Cotler asserts that for the last four decades, “I’ve been a supporter of two states for two peoples.”
...
“Wittingly or unwittingly, Cotler has assumed the function of legitimizing the support for the Zionist entity among liberals and moderate progressives in Canada, and he does this effectively because in matters unrelated to Palestine he has engaged in advocacy promoting human rights around the world,” Lascaris said.

“But he behaves as if historic Palestine is a human rights-free zone and as if the laws that apply to other actors are inapplicable there.”

Indeed, Trudeau has acknowledged Cotler’s influence on the Canadian government’s extreme pro-Israel policies, including its smear campaign against the nonviolent BDS – boycott, divestment and sanctions – movement for Palestinian rights.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on June 05, 2019, 06:18:02 pm
When will the World acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 06, 2019, 07:31:58 am
A children's book? Really?
https://palestinelegal.org/news/2019/6/5/success-nj-library-reinstates-palestine-childrens-book-event

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 06, 2019, 10:52:50 am
When will the World acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states?

you keep nattering on about this; I earlier challenged you for numbers. Notwithstanding your perpetual whataboutism, you fail to distinguish legitimate Jewish refugees (that principally ended up in Israel to fulfill a drive to become a part of the 'Jewish state') and those Jews with influence/means who chose their country: "Wealthy Baghdadi Jews, the Jewish bourgeoisie of Morocco and Algeria, Jews from Aden and Egypt with British nationality and Iranian Jews tended to choose France, Britain or the US. It was the poor, unskilled, ill-educated Jews who poured into Israel."

once you provide actual substantiated numbers, one can perhaps move to invalidate your want to play off displaced Palestinians and Jews against each other - your drive for a "quid pro-quo" is nothing more than you parroting the latest talking points you come across.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 07, 2019, 11:30:01 am
Sanders, Warren Introduce Resolution Against Israel Annexing West Bank

https://forward.com/fast-forward/425589/sanders-warren-introduce-resolution-against-israel-annexing-west-bank/

WASHINGTON (JTA) — Five Democratic senators, including the party’s deputy leader in the chamber and two leading presidential candidates, introduced a resolution decrying any Israeli plan to annex West Bank territory, an apparent shot across the bow at Benjamin Netanyahu’s recent election pledge.

“Unilateral annexation of portions of the West Bank would jeopardize prospects for a two-state solution, harm Israel’s relationship with its Arab neighbors, threaten Israel’s Jewish and democratic identity, and undermine Israel’s security,” says the non-binding resolution introduced Thursday.

It says the “the policy of the United States should be to preserve conditions conducive to a negotiated two state solution.”
...
The elections were indecisive and Israelis go to the polls again in September, while Netanyahu remains prime minister.

Netanyahu and President Donald Trump have retreated from endorsing a two-state outcome to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is set later this month to unveil the economic component of a peace plan he has been preparing for two years.


I don't have an opinion on one-state vs two-state solution, except I think it should be a negotiated solution between Israel and Palestine, not unilateral expansion by Israel.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on June 07, 2019, 11:46:01 am
Israel said set to seek $250b compensation for Jews forced out of Arab countries


Israel is preparing to demand compensation totaling a reported $250 billion from seven Arab countries and Iran for property and assets left behind by Jews who were forced to flee those countries following the establishment of the State of Israel.

“The time has come to correct the historic injustice of the pogroms (against Jews) in seven Arab countries and Iran, and to restore, to hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their property, what is rightfully theirs,” Israel’s Minister for Social Equality, Gila Gamliel, who is coordinating the Israeli government’s handling of the issue, said Saturday.

According to figures cited Saturday night by Israel’s Hadashot TV news, compensation demands are now being finalized with regards to the first two of the eight countries involved, with Israel set to seek $35 billion dollars in compensation for lost Jewish assets from Tunisia, and $15 billion dollars from Libya.

In total, the TV report said Israel will seek over $250 billion from those two countries plus Morocco, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and Iran.

Justice for Jews from Arab Countries (JJAC), an international umbrella group of Jewish community organizations, has estimated that some 856,000 Jews from 10 Arab countries — the other two were Algeria and Lebanon — fled or were expelled in 1948 and after, while violent Arab riots left many Jews dead or injured.

For the past 18 months, utilizing the services of an international accountancy firm, the Israeli government has quietly been researching the value of property and assets that these Jews were forced to leave behind, the TV report said.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-set-to-seek-250b-compensation-for-jews-forced-out-of-arab-countries/

It's time the Arabs paid up for the ethnic cleansing committed against Jews in Arab countries.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 07, 2019, 03:02:11 pm
Israel said set to seek $250b compensation for Jews forced out of Arab countries


Israel is preparing to demand compensation totaling a reported $250 billion from seven Arab countries and Iran for property and assets left behind by Jews who were forced to flee those countries following the establishment of the State of Israel.

“The time has come to correct the historic injustice of the pogroms (against Jews) in seven Arab countries and Iran, and to restore, to hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their property, what is rightfully theirs,” Israel’s Minister for Social Equality, Gila Gamliel, who is coordinating the Israeli government’s handling of the issue, said Saturday.

According to figures cited Saturday night by Israel’s Hadashot TV news, compensation demands are now being finalized with regards to the first two of the eight countries involved, with Israel set to seek $35 billion dollars in compensation for lost Jewish assets from Tunisia, and $15 billion dollars from Libya.

In total, the TV report said Israel will seek over $250 billion from those two countries plus Morocco, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Yemen and Iran.

Justice for Jews from Arab Countries (JJAC), an international umbrella group of Jewish community organizations, has estimated that some 856,000 Jews from 10 Arab countries — the other two were Algeria and Lebanon — fled or were expelled in 1948 and after, while violent Arab riots left many Jews dead or injured.

For the past 18 months, utilizing the services of an international accountancy firm, the Israeli government has quietly been researching the value of property and assets that these Jews were forced to leave behind, the TV report said.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-set-to-seek-250b-compensation-for-jews-forced-out-of-arab-countries/

It's time the Arabs paid up for the ethnic cleansing committed against Jews in Arab countries.

Indeed.

Has Israel yet paid compensation for the Palestinians run out of Israel & West Bank?

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on June 07, 2019, 03:05:47 pm
Indeed.

Has Israel yet paid compensation for the Palestinians run out of Israel & West Bank?

More Jews were displaced from Arab lands than Arabs that were displaced by Israeli occupation.  Nice to see anti-Semites cannot counter history but choose to ignore, dismiss or reflect it.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 07, 2019, 03:30:17 pm
More Jews were displaced from Arab lands than Arabs that were displaced by Israeli occupation.

They don't cancel each other out.
Both are viable considerations, I would think.

 
Quote
Nice to see anti-Semites cannot counter history but choose to ignore, dismiss or reflect it.
Accusations of anti-Semitism due to criticism of Netanyahu's policies for Israel are the tactic of people with no valid arguments.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on June 07, 2019, 03:31:26 pm

 Accusations of anti-Semitism due to criticism of Netanyahu's policies for Israel are the tactic of people with no valid arguments.

You should learn the English language since nobody supports Netanyahu.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 07, 2019, 03:45:01 pm
You should learn the English language since nobody supports Netanyahu.

I can't make any sense of that at all.
Try again.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 08, 2019, 07:51:15 am
Note: I post such links for information, alternative Jewish and Palestinian views that I support in their attempts to work together toward peaceful solutions.

Long past time to reclaim Judaism from Zionism
https://shar.es/a0CnWm
I have wrestled with a similar question for many years: how can the ethical precepts of Judaism—pursue justice, love your neighbor, love the stranger, repair the world—be reconciled with Zionism? Any Judaism I can believe in is at odds with this nationalist ideology, which claims that only a state controlled by Jews and privileging them over non-Jews can protect them against anti-Semitism and the threat of another Holocaust.
...
The collection defies the stereotype of Jews who reject Zionism as “self-hating.”  On the contrary, it reveals that many remain religious and observant, while others take pride in a secular Jewish identity intertwined with their progressive ideals. The authors include rabbis, historians of Jewish Studies and Middle Eastern Studies, other academics, lawyers, social workers, journalists and media professionals, activists, and recent graduates. Whether religious or secular, they have come to see Zionism as violating Judaism’s most sacred ethical principles.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 09, 2019, 11:32:45 am
Germany has outlawed BDS as "anti-Semitism"
It is not.
In support of the call by 240 Jewish and Israeli scholars to the German government: Do not equate ‘BDS’ with anti-Semitism
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc1W_JE2ioVSbW1XhT_WdpzFT4NY3trBWP39-Alb6ge7HpKpg/viewform

If you agree, please sign.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on June 12, 2019, 08:30:46 am
Germany has outlawed BDS as "anti-Semitism" 

Why might it be though ?

Maybe because it singles out Israel over much worse actors that we trade with quite freely ? 

Maybe another framework than boycott could bring a conversation over human rights to a more productive place ?

I don't have a hard opinion on this one, just asking.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 12, 2019, 03:41:22 pm
Why might it be though ?
Maybe because it singles out Israel over much worse actors that we trade with quite freely ? 

I can't speak for all BDS supporters, but my initial introduction to the idea was at the time of Israel's bombing of Gaza in 2009, among Canadian labour and social justice activists, some of whom were Palestinian and some Jewish. The pain and desperation of Palestinian members was obvious, and eight well-known Jewish-Canadian women were occupying the Israeli Consulate in Toronto at the time.
It wasn't about anti-Semitism but about injustices and Israel's disproportionate response:
13 Israelis killed (3 civilians, 4 friendly fire)
1400+ Palestinians killed (926 civilians)

Israel stopped due to international outcry.

Speaking out is important.

Quote
Maybe another framework than boycott could bring a conversation over human rights to a more productive place ?

I don't have a hard opinion on this one, just asking.

Anybody is free to start whatever initiative they wish.

BDS is non-violent and educates people about Israel-Palestine issues. It is succeeding in that.

And I am appalled, on principle, that Parliament "condemns" Canadians who participate in BDS. <rolleyes>
It's a matter of freedom of expression, and REALLY not their business.
If some Canadians boycotted Saudi Arabia, would we be "condemned" for that too ... because of trade relations?

It's a very slippery slope when our governments start trying to tell us who we can and cannot protest.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 12, 2019, 07:05:49 pm
BDS is a front for terrorism and governments of the world have a moral responsibility to call out and condemn terrorist organizations.

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/02/06/documenting-the-bds-movements-undisputed-ties-to-terrorism/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/05/08/anti-israel-bds-palestinian-terrorist-pflp-hamas/

http://acdemocracy.org/terrorists-in-suits-the-ties-between-ngos-promoting-bds-and-terrorist-organizations/

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/270595/bds-and-terrorism-are-one-hate-network-daniel-greenfield

https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/stuff-you-need-to-know/rules/270/

http://atlasbarriers.com/feed-items/30-accounts-owned-by-bds-linked-organizations-with-ties-to-terrorism-closed/
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 12, 2019, 07:36:55 pm
BDS is a front for terrorism and governments of the world have a moral responsibility to call out and condemn terrorist organizations.

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/02/06/documenting-the-bds-movements-undisputed-ties-to-terrorism/

https://dailycaller.com/2019/05/08/anti-israel-bds-palestinian-terrorist-pflp-hamas/

http://acdemocracy.org/terrorists-in-suits-the-ties-between-ngos-promoting-bds-and-terrorist-organizations/

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/270595/bds-and-terrorism-are-one-hate-network-daniel-greenfield

http://atlasbarriers.com/feed-items/30-accounts-owned-by-bds-linked-organizations-with-ties-to-terrorism-closed/

Yes thanks Rue.
One need to be aware of the propaganda files.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 13, 2019, 02:58:35 am
Yes thanks Rue.
One needs to be aware of the propaganda files.

propaganda files! (https://instantrimshot.com/audio/rimshot.mp3)
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 13, 2019, 11:28:58 pm
Independent Jewish Voices Canada says:

Go Raptors!

...but not to Israel.


Toronto Raptors Jewish co-owner says team will visit Israel if it wins NBA championship

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Coolio on June 15, 2019, 01:58:17 am
Independent Jewish Voices Canada says:

Go Raptors!

...but not to Israel.


Toronto Raptors Jewish co-owner says team will visit Israel if it wins NBA championship

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads

Good stuff. I support the Raptors visiting Israel. I also openly support any IDF actions when it comes to eradicate those pesky Arabs from land that does not belong to them. Mainly Judea and Samaria.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 15, 2019, 10:17:27 pm
Independent Jewish Voices Canada says:

Go Raptors!

...but not to Israel.


Toronto Raptors Jewish co-owner says team will visit Israel if it wins NBA championship

https://www.jta.org/quick-reads

#SayNO @Raptors to #Tanenbaum #Sportwashing offer of #Israeli visit

https://www.change.org/p/toronto-raptors-sayno-raptors-to-tanenbaum-sportwashing-offer-of-israeli-visit?recruiter=5087298&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_petition&recruited_by_id=d076fdc0-ecbb-0130-1e6c-00221964dac8
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2019, 02:48:50 am
 
Israel surveils and blackmails gay Palestinians to make them informants
https://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/blackmails-palestinian-informants/?fbclid=IwAR0wPp1HBnQ9xeqtnkZbhWPqxaHJhVc8sc23tnKll_4m7U_qwaqEovIpGx8‬
Haaretz has a story up on 43 reservists in Israeli intelligence who are refusing to serve because of the “political persecution” of Palestinians. The reservists write that while surveillance of Israeli citizens is strictly limited, “the Palestinians are not afforded this protection.” They declare in a letter to the Israeli P.M.: “we refuse to take part in actions against Palestinians and refuse to continue serving as tools in deepening the military control over the Occupied Territories.”
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2019, 03:16:15 am
Independent Jewish Voices CANADA says:
"Apparently, Netanyahu masterminded the antisemitic  Hungarian attacks against George Soros. The perversity and rank hypocrisy of this is mind blowing."

Netanyahu advisers hatched anti-Semitic conspiracy against George Soros
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/netanyahu-advisers-hatched-anti-semitic-conspiracy-against-george-soros
Israeli leaders helped birth today’s most notorious anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

That’s the conclusion from recent reports about the origins of a right-wing plot against liberal Jewish billionaire George Soros.

The demonization of Soros – often in overtly anti-Semitic terms – has become a leading theme of the international right in recent years.

And two of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s key advisers were responsible for it.


This is right-wing left-wing Israeli politics, with Netanyahu trying to silence left-wing Jewish people all over the world.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on June 16, 2019, 06:33:56 am

Israel surveils and blackmails gay Palestinians to make them informants

Hmmm.  Well, it makes sense.  I think Israel's goal is to keep the status quo.  Even making gains is not to their advantage as it will bring the attention of the International Community.

At some point the Palestinians will unite around reasonable goals and a two-state solution will happen.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2019, 10:06:04 am
Hmmm.  Well, it makes sense.  I think Israel's goal is to keep the status quo.  Even making gains is not to their advantage as it will bring the attention of the International Community.
I guess that's it. The status quo isn't tolerable for Palestinians, but Netanyahu and right wing Israelis just don't seem to have any other intentions.

Quote
At some point the Palestinians will unite around reasonable goals and a two-state solution will happen.
Could still be, but seems a more remote possibility all the time.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2019, 10:50:21 am
The demonization of Soros – often in overtly anti-Semitic terms – has become a leading theme of the international right in recent years.

And two of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s key advisers were responsible for it.[/i]

This is right-wing left-wing Israeli politics, with Netanyahu trying to silence left-wing Jewish people all over the world.

same from Buzzfeed: The Unbelievable Story Of The Plot Against George Soros (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hnsgrassegger/george-soros-conspiracy-finkelstein-birnbaum-orban-netanyahu)
-
-
-
BUT - credit where creditIsDue... to the azzholes Murdoch & Ailes from FauxNews!

The Plot Against George Soros Didn’t Start in Hungary. It Started on Fox News. (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/23/plot-george-soros-didnt-start-hungary-started-fox-news/)
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 16, 2019, 11:21:27 am
same from Buzzfeed: The Unbelievable Story Of The Plot Against George Soros (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hnsgrassegger/george-soros-conspiracy-finkelstein-birnbaum-orban-netanyahu)
-
-
-
BUT - credit where creditIsDue... to the azzholes Murdoch & Ailes from FauxNews!

The Plot Against George Soros Didn’t Start in Hungary. It Started on Fox News. (https://theintercept.com/2019/01/23/plot-george-soros-didnt-start-hungary-started-fox-news/)

The cooperation between ultra-right Israelis/Netanyahu, and alt-right white nationalists (anti-Semites) in attacking left-wing Jews (Netanyahus opposition) is stunning and disgusting.

I wish for much better leadership for Israel. 😟

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on June 17, 2019, 07:29:10 pm
You again make unreferenced allegations. Who are these white nationalists Netanyahu is cooperating with? At this point you fabricate  such allegations with zero sources.and you would have people believe anti Semitic white nationalists who by very definition hate all Jews love Netanyahu and certain Jews.

You have reduced  'your' thread to an absurd series of fabricated delusions as to Jews and a conspiracy between Netanyahu and neo Nazis and the  belief that any Jew who disagrees with you is a right wing extremist and bad.

Hey have you heard about your buddy Netanyahu sucking up to your other buddy Trump? "Pathetic" is the first word that comes to mind.

 President Donald Trump likes to have his name on things. And now he can add another one to the roster: a tiny Israeli settlement in the Golan Heights. The fact that it doesn’t actually exist seems to be incidental as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu celebrated what the opposition criticized as a PR stunt. Netanyahu took his Cabinet to the Golan Heights Sunday, where, alongside U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, he unveiled the sign for a town called “Ramat Trump,” or “Trump Heights.” The move was meant as a gesture of appreciation for Trump and his move to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the territory.

Despite the big, gold-trimmed sign that is decorated with both Israeli and U.S. flags and planted on synthetic grass there isn’t actually a new community named after Trump. Netanyahu is trying to rename an existing settlement, that is home to a tiny, aging community as a way to attract new residents. But it’s all in the very early planning stages yet and there is little sign it will become a reality in the near future considering Netanyahu’s political woes at home.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/trump-heights-golan-heights-settlement.html
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 17, 2019, 07:35:53 pm
The cooperation between ultra-right Israelis/Netanyahu, and alt-right white nationalists (anti-Semites) in attacking left-wing Jews (Netanyahus opposition) is stunning and disgusting.

I wish for much better leadership for Israel. 😟

You again make unreferenced allegations. Who are these white nationalists Netanyahu is cooperating with? You provided no sources or proof of this and you would have people believe anti Semitic white nationalists who by very definition hate all Jews love Netanyahu and Jews and that any Jew would conspire against other Jews with them. That is quite vile. The technique you use equates Jews you think you do not agree with as Nazis. That is offensive and bigoted.

You have also  reduced  'your' thread to an absurd series of fabricated projected steretypes as to  who you believe are good and bad Jews.

This Jew finds your presumptions and sereotypes as to Jews offensive not to mention illogical, hateful and simply a reflection of your own bigoted projections and delusions as to what you think any Jew thinks.





Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 17, 2019, 07:42:01 pm
Hey have you heard about your buddy Netanyahu sucking up to your other buddy Trump? "Pathetic" is the first word that comes to mind.

 President Donald Trump likes to have his name on things. And now he can add another one to the roster: a tiny Israeli settlement in the Golan Heights. The fact that it doesn’t actually exist seems to be incidental as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu celebrated what the opposition criticized as a PR stunt. Netanyahu took his Cabinet to the Golan Heights Sunday, where, alongside U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, he unveiled the sign for a town called “Ramat Trump,” or “Trump Heights.” The move was meant as a gesture of appreciation for Trump and his move to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the territory.

Despite the big, gold-trimmed sign that is decorated with both Israeli and U.S. flags and planted on synthetic grass there isn’t actually a new community named after Trump. Netanyahu is trying to rename an existing settlement, that is home to a tiny, aging community as a way to attract new residents. But it’s all in the very early planning stages yet and there is little sign it will become a reality in the near future considering Netanyahu’s political woes at home.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/trump-heights-golan-heights-settlement.html

What does your response have to do with the subject of the thread? If you want to start a thread challenging the Trump and Netanyahu relationship go ahead and do just that. Your reference calling Netanyahu my buddy is childish. He is no more my buddy than Justin and the leader of Hamasr PA are your buddies. Such gratuitous personal remarks simply point out again your lack of civility.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on June 17, 2019, 07:51:22 pm
What does your response have to do with the subject of the thread? If you want to start a thread challenging the Trump and Netanyahu relationship go ahead and do just that. Your reference calling Netanyahu my buddy is childish. He is no more my buddy than Justin and the leader of Hamasr PA are your buddies. Such gratuitous personal remarks simply point out again your lack of civility.

The subject of this thread seems to be "International Jewish Voices" one of the loudest of which is Benjamin Netanyahu's. Which is why I have pointed/quoted him on this thread.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 17, 2019, 08:59:36 pm
Hey have you heard about your buddy Netanyahu sucking up to your other buddy Trump? "Pathetic" is the first word that comes to mind.

 President Donald Trump likes to have his name on things. And now he can add another one to the roster: a tiny Israeli settlement in the Golan Heights. The fact that it doesn’t actually exist seems to be incidental as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu celebrated what the opposition criticized as a PR stunt. Netanyahu took his Cabinet to the Golan Heights Sunday, where, alongside U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, he unveiled the sign for a town called “Ramat Trump,” or “Trump Heights.” The move was meant as a gesture of appreciation for Trump and his move to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the territory.

Despite the big, gold-trimmed sign that is decorated with both Israeli and U.S. flags and planted on synthetic grass there isn’t actually a new community named after Trump. Netanyahu is trying to rename an existing settlement, that is home to a tiny, aging community as a way to attract new residents. But it’s all in the very early planning stages yet and there is little sign it will become a reality in the near future considering Netanyahu’s political woes at home.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/trump-heights-golan-heights-settlement.html

Ooooooo .... a gold trimmed sign for the Donald, nice fake grass ... and potted plants!
Is he going to make a golf course and Trump Hotel there?
https://compote.slate.com/images/854b58e1-a059-400a-8d44-6d80d91bedac.jpeg?width=780&height=520&rect=6400x4267&offset=0x0

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 17, 2019, 09:08:19 pm
Who are these white nationalists Netanyahu is cooperating with?

Why are you asking me?
Get back to us when you've read the links.

Your buddy Bibi welcomes anyone who can help keep him in power.
White nationalists are happy to attack influential left-wing Jews for him.



Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on June 17, 2019, 09:12:38 pm
Ooooooo .... a gold trimmed sign for the Donald, nice fake grass ... and potted plants!
Is he going to make a golf course and Trump Hotel there?
https://compote.slate.com/images/854b58e1-a059-400a-8d44-6d80d91bedac.jpeg?width=780&height=520&rect=6400x4267&offset=0x0

There may be a slight delay in Trump getting any construction under way as he is currently busy firing his pollsters who are having to show him he is not doing very well.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 26, 2019, 09:46:33 pm
https://ijvcanada.org/2019/ijv-urges-the-canadian-government-to-reconsider-its-use-of-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism/

Contrary to these claims, the government’s anti-racism strategy document did not include the deeply problematic examples that are part of the full IHRA definition, and which are being used to suppress and even criminalize pro-Palestine speech and activism.

It is not at all clear whether the inclusion of the IHRA definition without its examples in the anti-racism strategy indicates that the definition has indeed been officially adopted. Nonetheless, the full definition’s examples conflate fundamental criticisms of Israel and/or Zionism with antisemitism — a position IJV strongly rejects. The adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism would pose a serious threat to freedom of expression and academic freedom in Canada.

We urge the Canadian Government to reconsider the use of the IHRA definition in its anti-racism strategy and replace it with a definition more in line with its definitions of anti-black racism and Islamophobia, e.g.: 


Antisemitism is hostility, prejudice, defamation or discrimination against Jews, individuals or as a collective, because they are Jews. It includes essentializing Jews by attributing to them characteristics or behaviors that are deemed negative and/or are harmful to non-Jews.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on June 27, 2019, 10:00:27 am
Omni I would suggest this thread and you have not responded tongue original issue it was started for and your clique is now using it as a general piss on Trump thread or piss on anyone you think disagrees with you. Granny's remarks meander and make no sense. It appears she continues to lecture on what a Jew is and if she thinks they agree with her they are good but if they don, t they are bad.

The two of you provide examples of how you insult Jews then justify the insults sayng because they disagree with you about knowing their place in the world they should be belittled.

That makes the two of you examples of people who use forums to shit on things and why the forum now except your clique has gone.

Congrats. In the name of progressive leftism you engage the forum as a urinal.

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: waldo on June 27, 2019, 10:26:50 am
Omni ... Granny

The two of you provide examples of how you insult Jews then justify the insults sayng because they disagree with you about knowing their place in the world they should be belittled.

That makes the two of you examples of people who use forums to shit on things and why the forum now except your clique has gone.

Congrats. In the name of progressive leftism you engage the forum as a urinal.

ambassadorRue... has spoken!
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on June 27, 2019, 12:25:50 pm
Omni I would suggest this thread and you have not responded tongue original issue it was started for and your clique is now using it as a general piss on Trump thread or piss on anyone you think disagrees with you. Granny's remarks meander and make no sense. It appears she continues to lecture on what a Jew is and if she thinks they agree with her they are good but if they don, t they are bad.

The two of you provide examples of how you insult Jews then justify the insults sayng because they disagree with you about knowing their place in the world they should be belittled.

That makes the two of you examples of people who use forums to shit on things and why the forum now except your clique has gone.

Congrats. In the name of progressive leftism you engage the forum as a urinal.

Rue, Remember to take your personal attacks to the Rules thread, please.
Not welcome in an adult discussion.
There's a good boy.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on June 27, 2019, 12:41:49 pm
Omni I would suggest this thread and you have not responded tongue original issue it was started for and your clique is now using it as a general piss on Trump thread or piss on anyone you think disagrees with you. Granny's remarks meander and make no sense. It appears she continues to lecture on what a Jew is and if she thinks they agree with her they are good but if they don, t they are bad.

The two of you provide examples of how you insult Jews then justify the insults sayng because they disagree with you about knowing their place in the world they should be belittled.

That makes the two of you examples of people who use forums to shit on things and why the forum now except your clique has gone.

Congrats. In the name of progressive leftism you engage the forum as a urinal.

You are familiar with the name Netanyahu aren't you? "International Jewish voices" Even you should be able to connect the dots despite your meanderings.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 01, 2019, 09:38:10 am
Israel settlements funded by US Duty Free tycoons:
The Falic family, owners of the chain of Duty Free Americas shops, funds settler groups in occupied West Bank.
https://aje.io/eetky
An investigation by the Associated Press news agency has found that the family has donated at least $5.6m to settler organisations in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem over the past decade, funding synagogues, schools and social services as well as far-right causes considered extreme even in Israel.

"Far-right foreign donors are a pillar of the settlement enterprise," said Peace Now, an Israeli anti-settlement watchdog group.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on July 02, 2019, 09:39:27 pm
Israel settlements funded by US Duty Free tycoons:
The Falic family, owners of the chain of Duty Free Americas shops, funds settler groups in occupied West Bank.
https://aje.io/eetky
An investigation by the Associated Press news agency has found that the family has donated at least $5.6m to settler organisations in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem over the past decade, funding synagogues, schools and social services as well as far-right causes considered extreme even in Israel.

"Far-right foreign donors are a pillar of the settlement enterprise," said Peace Now, an Israeli anti-settlement watchdog group.


Not surprising, Irish Americans were also the biggest supporters of the IRA during the troubles.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 02:52:29 pm
Not surprising, Irish Americans were also the biggest supporters of the IRA during the troubles.

These are supporters of illegal Israeli settlements.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 02:58:16 pm
These are supporters of illegal Israeli settlements.
And Irish Americans were supporters of bombing pubs, tube stations and other public places.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 03, 2019, 07:36:55 pm
And Irish Americans were supporters of bombing pubs, tube stations and other public places.

You're right.
To defend their homeland.

They weren't invading.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: wilber on July 03, 2019, 08:35:40 pm
You're right.
To defend their homeland.

They weren't invading.


The IRA carried out terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland and Britain. Most of their victims were other Irishmen and their two biggest arms suppliers were the US and Gaddafi's Libya. Since the Provos have been disbanded, the biggest threat to the people of Ireland has been Brexit.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 09, 2019, 01:50:24 am
Purging the Nakba. Or how an Israeli security agency takes on a monstrosity, the truth

https://mondoweiss.net/2019/07/israeli-security-monstrosity/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=israeli-security-monstrosity&utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=79ad8a1ad0-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b86bace129-79ad8a1ad0-398410253&mc_cid=79ad8a1ad0&mc_eid=e99061f043

As a report by Israeli NGO Akevot and reporter Hagar Shezaf shows, one of Israel’s most notorious security apparatus, DSDE, has been going through official archives for almost two decades and removing “delicate” documents from them, particularly those recording events during the Nakba.

I have a feeling It's important to distribute some historical accounts of the Nakba that may be lost.
The children were killed by smashing of their skulls with sticks.


Quote
Misterioso on July 8, 2019, 10:50 am
@bcg, et al

“Survival of the fittest”
By Ari Shavit Haaretz, Haaretz, January 8, 2004
https://www.haaretz.com/1.5262454

Ari Shavit interviews Benny Morris

EXCERPT:
“According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?”

“Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

“The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

“That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.”


Log in to Reply
Misterioso on July 8, 2019, 10:55 am
More horrors for the record:

THE MASSACRE AT Al-DAWAYIMA
On October 28/48, as part of Operation Yoav, the prosperous and mainly agricultural Palestinian village of al-Dawayima was captured “without a fight” by the 89th Commando Battalion of the Israel Defence Forces’ 8th Brigade. An Israeli soldier eyewitness described what then happened: “‘[First the IDF] killed about 80-100 [male] Arabs, women and children. The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead. The remaining Arabs were then closed off in houses ‘without food and water,’ as the village was systematically razed. ‘One commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain house…and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused…. The commander then ordered his men to put in the old women and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her. One woman with a new-born baby in her arms was employed to clear the courtyard where the soldiers ate. She worked a day or two. In the end they shot her and her baby.'” (Benny Morris, Birth of The Palestinian Problem, pp. 222-23)

Also, during their murderous rampage in al-Dawayima Israeli soldiers slaughtered seventy-five elderly men in the village mosque where they had gone to pray. (John Quigley, Palestine and Israel…p. 85) During an interview with the Israeli daily Hadashot in 1984, the village mukhtar recalled: “The people fled, and everyone they saw in the houses, they shot and killed. They also killed people in the streets. They came and blew up my house….” (Professor Walid Khalidi, Harvard, All That Remains, p. 215)

“The mukhtar also said that about thirty-five families (including some expelled from another village) were hiding in caves outside the village and when Israeli troops discovered them, ‘They told them to come out and get into line and start to walk. And as they started to walk, they were shot by machine guns from two sides…. We sent people there that night, who collected the bodies, put them into a cistern and buried them.'” (ibid) (In 1984, the account given by the mukhtar was confirmed by Israeli journalists who visited the site and found human skeletal remains) (ibid)

The Israeli soldier eyewitness explained why in his view, the mass murders took place: “cultured officers…had turned into base murderers and this not in the heat of battle…but out of a system of expulsion and destruction. The less Arabs remained – the better. This principle is the political motor for the expulsions and the atrocities.” (Benny Morris, Birth…pp. 222-23;

“’There was no battle and no resistance (and no Egyptians). The first conquerors killed from eighty to a hundred Arabs [including] women and children. The children were killed by smashing of their skulls with sticks. Is it possible to shout about Deir Yassin and be silent about something much worse?’”

For the first time ever, a letter quoting one of the Israeli soldiers who were part of the Al-Dawayima massacre in October 1948 was published in full in 2016:

“On Friday, February 5th 2016, Haaretz published an article in Hebrew by Israeli historian Yair Auron, which covers one of the biggest massacres of 1948. The massacre is of Al Dawayima, west of Al-Khalil (which is often referred to as Hebron). In a 2004 interview with Haaretz, Israeli historian Benny Morris refers to this as a massacre of ‘hundreds.’

“After the massacre, a letter was sent to the editor of the leftist affiliated newspaper Al-Hamishmar, but never published. As Auron notes, there are still many archives of the time which are classified. Auron also states that there was an investigation that was never concluded and ‘died out’ as a massive amnesty was provided to military personnel in February 1949.

“This is a very exhaustive article, but I found it useful enough to translate this letter in full on its own. The letter, which first ‘disappeared,’ was provided to Auron by historian Benny Morris. Although these matters have been referred to in passing in historical summaries, the letter has never been published before in full.

“The letter is brought forth by a member of the MAPAM leftist party, S. Kaplan, who got the letter of testimony from the soldier. It is written to Eliezer Peri, editor of Al Hamishmar, and dated 8th November 1948 (18 days after the massacre):

“To comrade Eliezer Peri, good day,
“Today I have read the editorial of “Al Hamishmar” where the question of our army’s conduct was aired, the army which conquers all but its own desires.

“A testimony provided to me by an officer which was in [Al] Dawayima the day after its conquering: The soldier is one of ours, intellectual, reliable, in all 100%. He had confided in me out of a need to unload the heaviness of his soul from the horror of the recognition that such level of barbarism can be reached by our educated and cultured people. He confided in me because not many are the hearts today who are able to listen.

“There was no battle and no resistance (and no Egyptians). The first conquerors killed from eighty to a hundred Arabs [including] women and children. The children were killed by smashing of their skulls with sticks. There was not a house without dead. The second wave of the [Israeli] army was a platoon that the soldier giving testimony belongs to.

“In the town were left male and female Arabs, who were put into houses and were then locked in without receiving food or drink. Later explosive engineers came to blow up houses. One commander ordered an engineer to put two elderly women into the house that was to be blown up. The engineered refused and said he is willing to receive orders only from his [own] commander. So then [his] commander ordered the soldiers to put the women in and the evil deed was performed.

“One soldier boasted that he raped an Arab woman and afterwards shot her. An Arab woman with a days-old infant was used for cleaning the back yard where the soldiers eat. She serviced them for a day or two, after which they shot her and the infant. The soldier tells that the commanders who are cultured and polite, considered good guys in society, have become vile murderers, and this occurs not in the storm of battle and heated response, but rather from a system of expulsion and destruction. The fewer Arabs remain – the better. This principle is the main political motive of [the] expulsions and acts of horror which no-one objects to, not in the field command nor amongst the highest military command. I myself was at the front for two weeks and heard boasting stories of soldiers and commanders, of how they excelled in the acts of hunting and ‘fucking’ [sic]. To fu** an Arab, just like that, and in any circumstance, is considered an impressive mission and there is competition on winning this [trophy].”

Enough said.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 10, 2019, 01:16:30 pm
I want to emphasize that I started this thread upon becoming aware of the Canadian group, Independent Jewish Voices, to share their messages and learn from them myself.
It's been a shocking and eye-opening experience, both the brutality of the Israeli government and military, and the inhumanity of many Israeli people.
“There has always been a lot of racially based segregation in Israel, but it was done quietly, mostly out of view in rural communities and concealed with ostensibly neutral language so that such policies would not arouse scrutiny or criticism,” he told Middle East Eye.

“But now the discrimination is moving centre-stage, into the big cities. It is being done transparently, even proudly. It is a sign of the right’s ever-greater confidence.”


https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/entry-ban-israeli-city-park-provokes-apartheid-warnings

Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 20, 2019, 03:13:00 pm
From 100 yards, Israeli sniper shoots 9 year old Palestinian boy in the head.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head-1.7542674
Although the focal point of the weekly demonstration in town was not nearby – the soldier took aim, fired and hit the child in the head.

Israel is a very sick place.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 20, 2019, 03:49:48 pm
Israel is a very sick place.

I think politics of identity can make normally good people do and think terrible and hateful things.

“Always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself.” - Richard Nixon
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 22, 2019, 01:33:44 pm
I think politics of identity can make normally good people do and think terrible and hateful things.

“Always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself.” - Richard Nixon

II don't consider 'tricky Dicky' Nixon an oracle of wisdom, but it's very true that holding hatred in your heart destroys your soul.

Israel is a country. It isn't possible to hate 'a country'. It would be the people of that country who may be targets for hatred.

I do know that hardline white supremacists hold hatred for Jewish people everywhere, including Jewish Israelis, and thus Israel itself. But they also hold hatred for all non-Aryans, all people of color.

But for many people, Jews and not, it isn't about hatred of people. It's great concern about the actions of the current Israeli government towards the Palestinisn people. It's the dehumanizing of Palestinian people, to the point where ... an Israeli soldier, sniper, knowing he will face no consequences because his government supports such actions ... would consciously scope, aim and fire at the head of a 9 year old Palestinian boy who is just standing in his friend's doorway, involved in no protest, doing nothing but being a kid.

That's simply despicable. And a state (Israel) that supports and encourages that deserves to be sanctioned by the international community.

The boycott, divest and sanction movement against Israel is quite valid, imo, and is certainly not hatred or anti-semitism.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 22, 2019, 03:47:21 pm
It's the dehumanizing of Palestinian people, to the point where ... an Israeli soldier, sniper, knowing he will face no consequences because his government supports such actions ...

That's simply despicable. And a state (Israel) that supports and encourages that deserves to be sanctioned by the international community.

That's assuming a lot. I don't know if the Israeli gov supports that, I doubt it, i would hope the soldier gets severely reprimanded.  Not sure what happens in these cases.

Quote
The boycott, divest and sanction movement against Israel is quite valid, imo, and is certainly not hatred or anti-semitism.

The problem with the BDS movement is that it's so selective.  There are no BDS movements against China, Iran, Russia, and a long list of other regimes that are as bad or often worse than Israel in terms of human rights.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 22, 2019, 08:28:10 pm
That's assuming a lot. I don't know if the Israeli gov supports that, I doubt it, i would hope the soldier gets severely reprimanded.  Not sure what happens in these cases.


You can follow up and find out.

Quote
The problem with the BDS movement is that it's so selective.  There are no BDS movements against China, Iran, Russia, and a long list of other regimes that are as bad or often worse than Israel in terms of human rights.

You go right ahead and do that. You have freedom of expression freedom of assembly too. Choose your own cause.

Canada's condemnation of my freedom of expression, my participation in BDS, is unacceptable.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 29, 2019, 09:25:28 am
Apparently the IDF are now only supposed to shoot live bullets at Palestinians' ankles.
Worth noting also that Palestinians are regularly protesting Israeli fences and walls erected in their communities. IDF soldiers are shooting at unarmed people through fences, people who cannot in any way harm the soldiers, shooting live fire into crowds of non-violent protesters. 

https://imemc.org/article/btselem-military-admits-killing-protesters-in-gaza-for-no-reason/
.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 29, 2019, 10:08:17 pm
Good to know:

https://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/west-bank-wines-cant-be-called-israeli-court-finds
.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on July 31, 2019, 06:21:07 pm

https://972mag.com/israel-no-exception-apartheid/142412/
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on August 02, 2019, 09:04:55 pm
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-behind-the-scenes-of-the-israel-project-collapse-as-it-shutters-jerusalem-office-1.7612478
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on August 16, 2019, 10:08:21 am
Trump & Netanyahu will boost BDS
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/by-barring-omar-and-tlaib-netanyahu-did-bds-a-huge-favor.html?fbclid=IwAR0n_DbLSf-lkAbyLX_ibPXVP5SV_xRBPkWypkvIHr5a4UG7wORUPTQ9CBs
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on August 21, 2019, 08:08:31 am
And voting against Trump means being 'disloyal' to the Hebrew faith ?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Rue on August 22, 2019, 06:33:16 pm
And voting against Trump means being 'disloyal' to the Hebrew faith ?

Its not what he said.

I do appreciate the left finds Trump an easy mark because he shoots off at the mouth. However he has clarified what he said and most of us Jews knew what he was referring to. He was referring to specific individuals in the Democratic party who do NOT recognize the right of Israeli to exist as a Jewish state and have openly said so and refer to Israel pre 1967 as part of Palestine and so to vote or support such politicians would be disloyal to Israel and that is what Trump meant and he is not a racist for saying that.

As a Jew I would be disloyal to Israel if I did not think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. It's a fact. That is all he meant.
The rest is all after the fact added analysis by those bias against Trump injecting further context and meaning into what he said.

The comment is loose lipped and easily picked up by people defending specific anti Israeli American Democrats.

The Democratic Party has 4 members who have made absolutely outrageous, one sided comments against Israel. Its a fact. If Republicans had said what these 4 said about any other  country, they would be accused of being racist.

Some of you who focus on what Trump said, but are not going to focus on what the 4 Democrats have said.

Trump may say a lot of loose lipped poorly stated comments but he is calling out a particular strain of anti Israeli dialogue. I am not so insecure as a Jew that I could not understand what he meant and take offence to it so please non Jews spare me lectures on how I should react to what he said. I also do not expect any of you  to blindly support Israel but you blindly support terrorism and extremism when you accuse anyone of supporting Israel's right to exist as an apartheid racists as BDS and Granny or these 4 idiot Democrats have done. Using Trump as your dead horse to beat on doesn't change your one sided biases anymore than they do Trump's.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on August 22, 2019, 08:42:23 pm
Its not what he said.
 

You're right, I misquoted:

" "In my opinion, you vote for a Democrat, you're being very disloyal to Jewish people and you're being very disloyal to Israel. And only weak people would say anything other than that.""

But he basically called 3/4 of American Jews disloyal to fellow Jews and "Israel".
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on August 23, 2019, 07:49:16 am
You're right, I misquoted:

" "In my opinion, you vote for a Democrat, you're being very disloyal to Jewish people and you're being very disloyal to Israel. And only weak people would say anything other than that.""

But he basically called 3/4 of American Jews disloyal to fellow Jews and "Israel".

Apparently to solidify up his support among American Zionist Evangelicals. They call him "King", and this week he referred to himself as "the chosen one". (Yuck)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/trump-disployalty-1.5255203
(Trump says any Jew who votes Democratic is 'disloyal' or lacks knowledge)
Trump cannot be re-elected without the votes of evangelical Christians, a group of people who, because of their heated eschatological dreams, are simultaneously capable of blindly supporting Israel and regarding American Jews with suspicion. (Some evangelicals refer to them as "uncompleted Christians," meaning they still need to come to Jesus).

Many evangelicals believe that establishment of Israel and the ingathering of the Jews from their diaspora set the scene for the end of days, during which they, and only they, will be raptured up to heaven while tribulations lay waste to the rest of humanity. All that remains is for the temple to be rebuilt on the Temple Mount, which would require the destruction of the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, something that would conveniently trigger a regional conflagration.

To that end, they send huge amounts of money to Israel, and demand that U.S. politicians support Israel unconditionally, which many do.


In the "conflagration", Evangelicals believe that all Jews will either convert to their evangelist Christian vision and receive 'the rapture', or be killed (along with the rest of humanity).

It's a very bizarre scene down there these days.
And no less bizarre is Israel consorting with American Evangelicals, whose beliefs demand the eventual destruction of Judaism.

Mostly, any Trump news just makes me want to upchuck, and this is a particularly vile pot of rotten stew.


Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on September 05, 2019, 09:23:54 am
Liberals Wrong To Dump Montreal Candidate Over “Antisemitism” Concerns
https://ijvcanada.org/2019/montreal-candidate/
Montreal--Independent Jewish Voices Canada (IJV) is outraged by the revocation of Hassan Guillet’s candidacy by the Liberal party in the federal riding of Saint Léonard-Saint Michel. The ouster occurred after social media posts by Guillet were made public by right-wing pro-Israel lobby group, B’nai Brith Canada, which deemed the posts to be both anti-Israel and antisemitic.

“Upon examination of the facts, it is evident to us that Guillet is anything but an antisemite,” said IJV spokesperson and National Coordinator Corey Balsam. “Synagogues don’t invite antisemites to speak about tolerance and fighting hatred,” he said. The former imam is well-known for his commitment to interfaith dialogue and to combating hatred and intolerance.

“What is abundantly clear is that Guillet has been targeted on account of his vocal criticism of Israel and its policies. While Mr. Guillet has made a few remarks in the past that can certainly be viewed as crass, jumping to the conclusion that these comments come from a place of anti-Jewish sentiment is going too far. The Liberal party seems to have acted out of fear of negative media attention, rather than an honest appraisal of the facts.”
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on September 05, 2019, 09:37:24 am

The Democratic Party has 4 members who have made absolutely outrageous, one sided comments against Israel.
I have ZERO interest in discussing Trump the  white supremacist sociopathic "chosen one".

But I would like links and examples of these Democrats' statements please Rue.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Omni on September 06, 2019, 12:49:05 am
I hear now Robert Mugabe has died. My comment is how is it that these assholes get to live so long? I would love to be able to throw a few shovels of dirt on his box to make sure he was buried for good.
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: MH on September 08, 2019, 12:03:33 pm
What is the Jewish tie-in to Mugabe ?
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: the_squid on September 08, 2019, 01:51:57 pm
What is the Jewish tie-in to Mugabe ?

I’m sure Omni has a “theory” about it.... 
Title: Re: International Jewish Voices
Post by: Granny on November 20, 2019, 07:07:01 am
Well!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-palestinian-vote-canada-israel-us-1.5365637
Canada voted for a UN resolution on Tuesday in support of Palestinians' right to self-determination.

But does it mean anything?
It is not so hard to vote with the vast majority (only Israel, the US, and a few small US-controlled and dependent nations voted against.
But will there be any significant action from the Liberals to support Palestinians in achieving self-determination?
Will they walk back their denunciation of BDS?