Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: kimmy on April 15, 2019, 12:18:59 am

Title: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: kimmy on April 15, 2019, 12:18:59 am
The past couple of years we've talked about the disruptions and hostile takeover of the Toronto Pride events by BLM:
https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/manitoba-politics/toronto-pride-2018-version/msg27294/#msg27294

Something similar happened in Edmonton last year-- the Pride parade was halted by protestors-of-color who had a number of demands, particularly relating to the presence of police and military people in uniform.

Last week members of the two groups ("Shades of Colour" and "RaricaNow") that disrupted last year's parade met with the Edmonton Pride Festival Society to present more demands. (their demands are listed in this letter to EPFS.) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/14YbfuNswFwFyIT3eTHac5Ekf8LHGudz7/view?fbclid=IwAR03eH4ZhKZ1BK3AcBRSF2PwLnmRjWcyxuIU4YolPMynQw3vMXwwz1oFx8k)

And the EPFS has responded by deciding to shut the whole thing down (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-pride-festival-cancelled-2019-1.5093276).


The leader of Shades Of Colour says that... (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonton-pride-cancellation-a-huge-loss-says-advocate-who-made-inclusion-demands-1.4377190)
Quote
ďWe were advocating to make changes, to make positive changes in the event. We donít want this event to be cancelled. We care about Pride, otherwise we wouldnít be putting in these efforts,Ē said Dave.

(...)

 A member of the Pride society, who spoke to CTV Edmonton anonymously on Thursday morning out of fear of retaliation, says the demands became too much.

ďI was heartbroken that we had reached this point because there was a sense of failure,Ē the member said.

ďI just think the demands showed a lack of understanding or a huge desire for the festival society to be something it's not.Ē

 Dave says the group had many discussions with Pride organizers since August and isnít sure why the board believes itís necessary to nix the celebration, which began in 1983. He said his groupís demands were negotiable.

ďWe used the language of demands because this feels like a crisis for our communities. People are feeling suicidal over Pride, people are getting deported. This is a crisis for queer and trans racialized people.Ē

Reading over the list of demands, it's clear that this is more than just "positive changes".  First and foremost, it's a shakedown, as the two groups were demanding Edmonton Pride Society give them $20,000 each, in addition to funding for a variety of QTBIPOC events and honorariums for QTBIPOC educators and performers.

(QTBIPOC? That's the latest acronym! It's Queer or Trans Black or Indigenous People of Color. I think basically it means everybody in LGBT who isn't white.)

Aside from money, they are essentially demanding that the entire festival be centered around QTBIPOC and trans people.  For everybody else, you might be les/bi/gay, but if you're not trans or QTBIPOC you can sit at the back with the rest of the white cis-scum.

I've never been to one of these things, and never will, but I'm actually kind of glad that they decided to just pull the plug on it.


 -k
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 05:11:19 am
This is what happens when radicals win - their movements aren't radical anymore.  And the ones who loved the anti-social and militant fellowship are forced to find something else.  Sometimes they can't.

I for one am glad that the police participate but I don't have an answer for BLM and Pride.  I'm sympathetic to them/
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on April 15, 2019, 08:31:26 am
The past couple of years we've talked about the disruptions and hostile takeover of the Toronto Pride events by BLM:
https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/manitoba-politics/toronto-pride-2018-version/msg27294/#msg27294

Something similar happened in Edmonton last year-- the Pride parade was halted by protestors-of-color who had a number of demands, particularly relating to the presence of police and military people in uniform.

Last week members of the two groups ("Shades of Colour" and "RaricaNow") that disrupted last year's parade met with the Edmonton Pride Festival Society to present more demands. (their demands are listed in this letter to EPFS.) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/14YbfuNswFwFyIT3eTHac5Ekf8LHGudz7/view?fbclid=IwAR03eH4ZhKZ1BK3AcBRSF2PwLnmRjWcyxuIU4YolPMynQw3vMXwwz1oFx8k)

And the EPFS has responded by deciding to shut the whole thing down (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-pride-festival-cancelled-2019-1.5093276).


The leader of Shades Of Colour says that... (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonton-pride-cancellation-a-huge-loss-says-advocate-who-made-inclusion-demands-1.4377190)
Reading over the list of demands, it's clear that this is more than just "positive changes".  First and foremost, it's a shakedown, as the two groups were demanding Edmonton Pride Society give them $20,000 each, in addition to funding for a variety of QTBIPOC events and honorariums for QTBIPOC educators and performers.

(QTBIPOC? That's the latest acronym! It's Queer or Trans Black or Indigenous People of Color. I think basically it means everybody in LGBT who isn't white.)

Aside from money, they are essentially demanding that the entire festival be centered around QTBIPOC and trans people.  For everybody else, you might be les/bi/gay, but if you're not trans or QTBIPOC you can sit at the back with the rest of the white cis-scum.

I've never been to one of these things, and never will, but I'm actually kind of glad that they decided to just pull the plug on it.


 -k
So this fringe group is attempting to extort money from Pride, exclude White people, and ban Police from the event. That's going really go over well.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 08:59:59 am
Exclude white people?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 09:42:36 am
Exclude white people?

No, white folks would just be a part of the organization that gets to do the work, pay the bills and go to the back of the line. Let these folks start their own festival, do the work and figure out how to pay their own bills.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 10:39:17 am
How so?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 11:27:56 am
How so?
What do you mean how so? These groups wanted 20K each to be part of a festival someone else was holding. Like kimmy  said, it was little more than a shakedown.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2019, 12:08:05 pm
I've never been to one of these things, and never will, but I'm actually kind of glad that they decided to just pull the plug on it.

years back, I used to regularly wander down to the west-end of VanCity during the parades - usually a hoot to watch... initially surprised by the corporate presence. Given the profile/presence, "the gays", have in VanCity I just never got it - why the need for a parade, particularly today as years march on?

you being the boards resident 'experimenting gay' (I kid, I kid), why the need for Pride Parades today? Can ya learn the waldo?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 12:19:16 pm
What do you mean how so? These groups wanted 20K each to be part of a festival someone else was holding. Like kimmy  said, it was little more than a shakedown.
You made some specific claims though.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: ?Impact on April 15, 2019, 01:11:31 pm
I think we need to start a group to take over the St. Patrick's Day parade, or better still the Santa Clause one.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 02:33:01 pm
You made some specific claims though.
Maybe we should be talking about their claims.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 02:54:30 pm
Maybe we should be talking about their claims.

You want to retract?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 04:14:41 pm
You want to retract?
No.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 04:47:09 pm
No.

Claims:

"No, white folks would just be a part of the organization that gets to do the work, pay the bills and go to the back of the line. Let these folks start their own festival, do the work and figure out how to pay their own bills."

Questions:

Non-white people won't do any of the work, or pay anything through taxes businesses ?

What is 'back of the line' ?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 04:51:52 pm
Claims:

"No, white folks would just be a part of the organization that gets to do the work, pay the bills and go to the back of the line. Let these folks start their own festival, do the work and figure out how to pay their own bills."

Questions:

Non-white people won't do any of the work, or pay anything through taxes businesses ?

What is 'back of the line' ?

I didnít say that.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 05:05:57 pm
I didnít say that.

Ok - what's the back of the line then ?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 06:20:03 pm
Ok - what's the back of the line then ?

Read Demand #1
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 15, 2019, 07:29:31 pm
Read Demand #1

Ok, I did.  It seems unreasonable to me but I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 07:33:26 pm
Ok, I did.  It seems unreasonable to me but I'll leave it at that.

I just think the organizers decided they weren't going to be held hostage and pay these people just so they could be their flunkies. Don't blame them a bit.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: kimmy on April 15, 2019, 09:23:57 pm
Ok - what's the back of the line then ?

"Parade" to be replaced by a protest designed by Spaces Of Colour and RaricaNOW.
QTBIPOC and trans people to lead said protest, followed by white cis people.
QTBIPOC and trans people to lead a vigil for slain LGBT people, followed by white cis people.
QTBIPOC and trans events receive the front four pages of the Pride program; white cis people at the back.
A no-whites-allowed dance party.

All of that sounds pretty "back of the line" to me.

Shades Of Colour and RaricaNOW demanded pretty much complete control over the whole event, right down to deciding who can or can't be in the parade. But they still wanted to use Pride funds and Pride volunteers to do it.   And that's not even mentioning the financial demands.

Last week EPFS was supposed to meet with a handful of representatives from the two organizations to discuss funding for more non-white and trans events at Pride. Instead, SoC and RaricaNow brought 30 activists into the office and the police had to be called. It's brazen intimidation. It's bullying. Now that the whole event has been cancelled, the SoW guy says "this is a tragedy, we never wanted the event to be cancelled, we wanted to work with EPFS to improve the event, we used the language of demands but we were always open to negotiating."   That's bullshit.  Bringing 30 activists to what was supposed to be a meeting between a handful of people isn't negotiation, it's intimidation. 

If SoC wants a no-whites-allowed dance party, why don't they go start their own?

 -k
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 09:25:10 pm
These BLM types are taking advantage of white guilt to do these sorts of interruptions, and the organizers are cowards to stand up to these bullies.  Peaceful protests are legal.  Protests that disturb the peace are illegal, and the protestors should leave or be arrested.  Full stop.  You can't hijack and keep hostage a parade for your protest.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 09:29:52 pm
I've never been to one of these things, and never will, but I'm actually kind of glad that they decided to just pull the plug on it.

No, what the organizers should have done is tell them to go eff themselves with any "demands".  Nobody is in any position to make "demands" on anyone else.  Then invite BLM to have a reasonable discussion where they can make "requests" in a respectful manner, and then the organizers can consider the reasonable "requests" and for the unreasonable ones tell them "no".
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 09:32:36 pm
These BLM types are taking advantage of white guilt to do these sorts of interruptions, and the organizers are cowards to stand up to these bullies.  Peaceful protests are legal.  Protests that disturb the peace are illegal, and the protestors should leave or be arrested.  Full stop.  You can't hijack and keep hostage a parade for your protest.

I think the organizers did the right thing. These folks would just try and take over on the day like they did last year. The organizers just cut that forum out from underneath them. Now they might understand blackmail isn't going to work, it will just piss off all those who enjoy these festivals and turn the general public against them. Hopefully this year is a one off and people will be more reasonable in future.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 09:32:53 pm
Demand from their list;

Quote
- Finally, End Pride in the Park with a vigil to honour the lives of LGBTIQ2S+ activists and community members that were lost due to
systemic oppression including transphobia, racism, classism, capitalism, etc.

Capitalism?!  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 09:43:42 pm
Somebody needs to remind BLM that though police are not perfect and do some bad things sometimes to people of colour, they do a hell of a lot more good for them than harm. For instance, young black men kill each other at extraordinarily high rates, and the only thing preventing all-out gang wars and uncontrollable street shootings in those communities are the cops who patrol those neighbourhoods.

Go to Jamaica or Trinidad or Haiti or the whole of sub-Saharan Africa and see what it's like to not have police enforcing the rule of law.

Cops are afraid of young black men, and young black men are afraid of cops.  Both have good reasons to be afraid.  But most cops are good people, and so are most young black men.  We need to end this dividing nonsense.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 09:49:38 pm
I just think the organizers decided they weren't going to be held hostage and pay these people just so they could be their flunkies. Don't blame them a bit.

Why cancel the parade?  Why not just tell these peeps to go eff themselves if the demands were unreasonable?  Grow some balls LGBT!  Wait, I take that last one back..
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 10:03:52 pm
I think the organizers did the right thing. These folks would just try and take over on the day like they did last year. The organizers just cut that forum out from underneath them. Now they might understand blackmail isn't going to work, it will just piss off all those who enjoy these festivals and turn the general public against them. Hopefully this year is a one off and people will be more reasonable in future.

If any group wants to disrupt a parade that has legal permits etc, that would be disturbing the peace, and they should be arrested if they don't leave.  Yes, by the cops.

If some Christian group interrupted and hijacked the Santa Claus parade in protest, what would happen?  They'd be hauled off by the cops.  Grow some balls, enforce the laws.  Never let bullies win, or they will keep bullying.  And certainly don't let them ruin the party for everyone else when they have a tantrum that they didn't get their way.  The parents of millennials shouldn't have spoiled their children rotten and refused to say "no" to these little twerps.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2019, 10:29:51 pm
Why cancel the parade?  Why not just tell these peeps to go eff themselves if the demands were unreasonable?  Grow some balls LGBT!  Wait, I take that last one back..
Actually, I think that was the smartest play. If they simply rejected the demands these a-holes would have used it an excuse to shut down the parade. By cancelling it the a-holes lose their platform and they get blamed for it.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 15, 2019, 10:32:20 pm
Actually, I think that was the smartest play. If they simply rejected the demands these a-holes would have used it an excuse to shut down the parade. By cancelling it the a-holes lose their platform and they get blamed for it.

Yeah true enough.  We can see them back-peddling.  Honestly, I shouldn't really care since this isn't my community, let them fight amongst themselves. I've got better things to worry about lol.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2019, 10:32:34 pm
If any group wants to disrupt a parade that has legal permits etc, that would be disturbing the peace, and they should be arrested if they don't leave.  Yes, by the cops.
Cops refuse to enforce the law unless absolutely forced to when natives are involved. This means a specific court order requiring them to act. There is no way such a order would be produced fast enough to prevent the event from being disrupted.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: the_squid on April 15, 2019, 11:31:25 pm
Cops refuse to enforce the law unless absolutely forced to when natives are involved. This means a specific court order requiring them to act. There is no way such a order would be produced fast enough to prevent the event from being disrupted.

How did natives get involved in this?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2019, 11:35:16 pm
How did natives get involved in this?
QTBIPOC (Queer, Trans, Black Indigenous, People of Colour)
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 11:43:32 pm
Why cancel the parade?  Why not just tell these peeps to go eff themselves if the demands were unreasonable?  Grow some balls LGBT!  Wait, I take that last one back..

Because they show up anyway and do their best to take over. Last year they blocked it for more than half an hour demanding the police be excluded. The organizers arenít giving them that chance this year and everyone knows the reason why.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 16, 2019, 06:34:04 am
Somebody needs to remind BLM that though police are not perfect and do some bad things sometimes to people of colour, they do a hell of a lot more good for them than harm.

I don't think that's a practical way to deal with protests of any kind.  It's a good way to fire them up, if that's what you want to do.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2019, 09:27:11 am
Iím wondering how black people figure in police involved shootings in the Edmonton area. Toronto has a big issue but does that translate to the rest of the country? How do groupís economic status  figure into their violent crime rates? Police interactions with people who have substance abuse and mental health issues have also been steadily rising. How much do these local movements actually reflect local issues and how much is just jumping on a band wagon?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2019, 11:46:20 am
The police are between a rock and a hard place. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Ineffective courts and spineless politicians have more to blame. Look at Vancouver 4-20. The organizers just take over over and trash public property with no permits, thumbing their nose at bylaws which are enforced for everyone else and the city won't stand up to them. The Pride organizers are complying with the law but it doesn't protect them from the actions of these fringe groups who try to kidnap the agenda.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Rue on April 16, 2019, 01:39:27 pm
years back, I used to regularly wander down to the west-end of VanCity during the parades - usually a hoot to watch... initially surprised by the corporate presence. Given the profile/presence, "the gays", have in VanCity I just never got it - why the need for a parade, particularly today as years march on?

you being the boards resident 'experimenting gay' (I kid, I kid), why the need for Pride Parades today? Can ya learn the waldo?

No this is not about you as much as you make every thread about you.  If you had any credibility you would direct your comments at Trudeau who attends every pride parade to pander for votes wearing he same pink shirt and white jeans. Not that you noticed.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: ?Impact on April 16, 2019, 03:40:29 pm
Iím wondering how black people figure in police involved shootings in the Edmonton area. Toronto has a big issue but does that translate to the rest of the country?

Edmonton used to lead the country in gun violence for major cities. Toronto used to be behind other major cities, but unfortunately it has become the worst major city in the past year. They are still however behind many smaller centers.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 16, 2019, 05:12:10 pm
I don't think that's a practical way to deal with protests of any kind.  It's a good way to fire them up, if that's what you want to do.

Demanding that police are excluded from the parade is more than a protest though.

Tell me, are black people less safe or more safe if there are cops around?  They feel they are less safe.  Sometimes they are, but I'd bet it's actually quite the opposite.

Activists protested enough that they were able to remove police from schools in Toronto.  The data showed that the cops actually made the students more safe, but sometimes people care more about how they feel rather than the data.

Cops do bad things sometimes, they also need to be given credit where credit's due.  They easily one of the toughest jobs.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2019, 08:32:21 pm
Edmonton used to lead the country in gun violence for major cities. Toronto used to be behind other major cities, but unfortunately it has become the worst major city in the past year. They are still however behind many smaller centers.

Yes, I was thinking specifically back people. The great majority of police shootings in Canada involve white people but considering they are a majority of the population, that should be expected but  of course it won't be uniform everywhere in the country.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on April 16, 2019, 08:37:07 pm

Tell me, are black people less safe or more safe if there are cops around?  They feel they are less safe.  Sometimes they are, but I'd bet it's actually quite the opposite.
 

It's pretty hard to blame black people for this.  Groups are like that - they band together.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 16, 2019, 09:46:38 pm
It's pretty hard to blame black people for this.  Groups are like that - they band together.

I'm not blaming black people for anything.  They have legit beefs with police.  I'm just saying they also need to have perspective.  Banning police from places black people go isn't the answer.  Those 2 communities need to come together more, not be more divided.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: kimmy on April 17, 2019, 12:46:10 am
Edmonton used to lead the country in gun violence for major cities. Toronto used to be behind other major cities, but unfortunately it has become the worst major city in the past year. They are still however behind many smaller centers.

Despite being one of Canada's most violent cities, Edmonton hasn't had the tension between black people and police that Toronto has had, mostly because Edmonton has a much smaller black community than Toronto, and hasn't historically had the black gang problems that Toronto has had. For Edmonton (and other prairie cities) the native community has been the epicenter of gang activity and a disproportionate share of violent crime.

I have no idea what this has to do with Pride.  The Edmonton Pride Festival Society was completely onboard with barring uniformed police and military personnel from the event. It was the Spaces Of Colour/RaricaNow letter of additional demands that caused the cancellation.

 -k
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 02:37:03 am
Somebody needs to remind BLM that though police are not perfect and do some bad things sometimes to people of colour, they do a hell of a lot more good for them than harm. For instance, young black men kill each other at extraordinarily high rates, and the only thing preventing all-out gang wars and uncontrollable street shootings in those communities are the cops who patrol those neighbourhoods.

Go to Jamaica or Trinidad or Haiti or the whole of sub-Saharan Africa and see what it's like to not have police enforcing the rule of law.

Cops are afraid of young black men, and young black men are afraid of cops.  Both have good reasons to be afraid.  But most cops are good people, and so are most young black men.  We need to end this dividing nonsense.

Bad cops put all cops at risk.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2018/02/27/cop-charged-in-dafonte-miller-beating-accused-of-misleading-durham-investigators.html

In Falconerís document, itís alleged that Const. Theriault struck Miller with a metal pipe ďno fewer than 10 times,Ē but that when Durham police arrived on scene both brothers reported that Miller had struck them repeatedly with the pipe.

The complaint went on to allege there was a ďdeliberate and intentionalĒ effort by police to ďconceal a crime by one of their own.Ē The complaint alleged that the brothersí father, John Theriault ó a Toronto police officer himself, who was working within Toronto policeís professional standards unit at the time ó made attempts to conceal his sonsí alleged crimes.


Const. Theriault was not "afraid" of the two black kids walking down his street. Const. Theriault is just a violent lying racist CREEP whose actions were covered up by other police.

Your statement ...
"... police are not perfect and do some bad things sometimes to people of colour, they do a hell of a lot more good for them than harm ..."

Where does it say in police oaths of duty that 'more good than harm' is acceptable?

 
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 16, 2019, 02:58:18 am

Const. Theriault was not "afraid" of the two black kids walking down his street. Const. Theriault is just a violent lying racist CREEP whose actions were covered up by other police.

What does this have to do with the Gay Pride festival being canceled?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 03:13:18 am
I'm not blaming black people for anything.  They have legit beefs with police.  I'm just saying they also need to have perspective.  Banning police from places black people go isn't the answer.  Those 2 communities need to come together more, not be more divided.

Why do police want to wear uniforms? Are they on duty?
Are we paying them?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 16, 2019, 03:19:54 am
Why do police want to wear uniforms? Are they on duty?
Are we paying them?

Just like pretty much any large festival in a large city ( or any other public gathering for that matter), yes we need Police in society to keep the peace, and prevent anarchy.  Do you have a better idea?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 16, 2019, 06:26:45 am
Why do police want to wear uniforms? Are they on duty?
Are we paying them?

It's actually a wonderful healing to have the police take place in Pride Marches but there is a schism in that the Black LGBTQ Community doesn't trust them.  Let's afford the comfort of healing to them also.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 02:57:13 pm
It's actually a wonderful healing to have the police take place in Pride Marches but there is a schism in that the Black LGBTQ Community doesn't trust them.  Let's afford the comfort of healing to them also.

It isn't "healing" for anyone for them to be marching enmasse in their uniforms.
Why do they demand that?
Are they off duty?
Are we paying them?
For what?
Intimidation?
If they're trying to make a "healing" gesture, marching enmasse in their uniforms just isn't it.

What other public employees get paid to be in the Pride Parade representing their department?

Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 03:38:21 pm
The Edmonton Pride Festival Society was completely onboard with barring uniformed police and military personnel from the event. It was the Spaces Of Colour/RaricaNow letter of additional demands that caused the cancellation.

 -k

Thanks, kimmy. That answers my question.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2019, 06:18:19 pm
Your statement ...
"... police are not perfect and do some bad things sometimes to people of colour, they do a hell of a lot more good for them than harm ..."

Where does it say in police oaths of duty that 'more good than harm' is acceptable?

It isn't acceptable and it isn't good enough, cops have a lot of problems with internal culture, they have a lot of problems in general, they do bad stuff all the time, there needs to be more training, more oversight etc.

A lot of the problem is that black people and cops don't understand each other, and when they interact it's usually when a crime has occurred, which isn't exactly a situation where it's easy to make friends and come together.  So when cops are on the beat and statistically a much higher % of young black black men and aboriginals are committing crimes they're investigating, some cops are going to start stereotyping or making assumptions about every young black male that isn't wearing a nice suit.

I'm saying maybe it would be better for these 2 groups to interact more in non-criminal ways.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2019, 06:21:37 pm
It isn't "healing" for anyone for them to be marching enmasse in their uniforms.
Why do they demand that?
Are they off duty?
Are we paying them?

What other public employees get paid to be in the Pride Parade representing their department?

I mean ya good points.  I think being in uniform it's just easier for people to know they're cops?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: ?Impact on May 16, 2019, 07:35:36 pm
when they interact it's usually when a crime has occurred.

Not really.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2019, 09:05:41 pm
Not really.

When do you interact with the police?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2019, 10:57:50 pm
When do you interact with the police?
For most people it is probably nothing more than a traffic ticket.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 16, 2019, 11:26:40 pm
I wish I had a copy of the "demands" of that fringe group. It is good for a laugh.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 17, 2019, 05:45:42 am
1. It isn't "healing" for anyone for them to be marching enmasse in their uniforms.
2. Why do they demand that?  Are they off duty? Are we paying them?
 

1. Actually, the group who feels maligned can decide that, not us.
2. People hate hearing that they are less than perfect.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 08:45:39 am
I mean ya good points.  I think being in uniform it's just easier for people to know they're cops?
Are they being paid while in uniform?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 17, 2019, 09:02:39 am
Are they being paid while in uniform?


That would depend on whether they are part of the group assigned to policing the event.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: ?Impact on May 17, 2019, 02:01:40 pm
When do you interact with the police?

Whenever you are "in the wrong place". Of course that means different things based on the clothes you wear, the color of your skin, your age, etc. No crime need be involved, just a cop deciding to harass you.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 02:52:46 pm
That would depend on whether the ar part of the group assigned to policing the event.

Then I can certainly see how police have created this problem for themselves, in Edmonton and in Toronto.

If you're in uniform, being paid, on duty ... then you are not just participating in the parade. So stand aside and monitor for any problems, like police always do at parades.

If you're an off duty officer and just participating in the parade for personal reasons, don't wear a uniform.

You can't have it both ways.
You can't pretend to be participants when you're really on duty policing the participants.

BLM was right.

Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on May 17, 2019, 02:59:24 pm
Then I can certainly see how police have created this problem for themselves, in Edmonton and in Toronto.

If you're in uniform, being paid, on duty ... then you are not just participating in the parade. So stand aside and monitor for any problems, like police always do at parades.

If you're an off duty officer and just participating in the parade for personal reasons, don't wear a uniform.

You can't have it both ways.
You can't pretend to be participants when you're really on duty policing the participants.

BLM was right.

That kind of mentality creates division in the world. This entire fiasco is the fault of the Shades of Colour group. They tried to bully the Pride group, and arguably extort money from them. If they did not get what they wanted, they would almost certainly have interrupted the Pride march for their own personal agenda.

After reading their demands, I am convinced they are either delusional or mentally ill. This was never a Police issue. It was an extortion attempt that backfired.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 17, 2019, 03:08:21 pm
Then I can certainly see how police have created this problem for themselves, in Edmonton and in Toronto.

If you're in uniform, being paid, on duty ... then you are not just participating in the parade. So stand aside and monitor for any problems, like police always do at parades.

If you're an off duty officer and just participating in the parade for personal reasons, don't wear a uniform.

You can't have it both ways.
You can't pretend to be participants when you're really on duty policing the participants.

BLM was right.



Sure they can, why should they hide what they are? Pride organizers don't dictate to other groups what they can wear.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 04:18:35 pm
Sure they can, why should they hide what they are? Pride organizers don't dictate to other groups what they can wear.

You really don't get it, do you?

IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR POLICE OFFICERS IN UNIFORM TO BE PAID FOR BEING ON DUTY WHILE PRETENDING TO BE MARCHING AS PARTICIPANTS IN THE PRIDE PARADE.

That's just deceit and subterfuge for spying on and monitoring participants.

 So BLM's suspicions are valid.

Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Rue on May 17, 2019, 05:49:48 pm
Why do police want to wear uniforms? Are they on duty?
Are we paying them?

The same reason TTC bus drivers wanted to, to show they work in all sectors and to indicate to their community they are now working in sectors they once thought they could not.

The same reason some people dress in drag or others dress in thongs.

The same reason Trudeau shows up at these events.

Its called token symbolism.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: waldo on May 17, 2019, 06:07:31 pm
The same reason Trudeau shows up at these events.

Its called token symbolism.

what's the symbolism behind weakSauce Scheer refusing to attend Pride Parades?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 17, 2019, 09:11:49 pm
You really don't get it, do you?

IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR POLICE OFFICERS IN UNIFORM TO BE PAID FOR BEING ON DUTY WHILE PRETENDING TO BE MARCHING AS PARTICIPANTS IN THE PRIDE PARADE.

That's just deceit and subterfuge for spying on and monitoring participants.

 So BLM's suspicions are valid.
Well before you go on with your rant, maybe you should find out what you are talking about instead of just making accusations and indulging in conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 18, 2019, 12:51:30 am
Well before you go on with your rant, maybe you should find out what you are talking about instead of just making accusations and indulging in conspiracy theories.

Are police paid to be in the Pride parade in uniform?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Rue on May 18, 2019, 08:00:22 am
what's the symbolism behind weakSauce Scheer refusing to attend Pride Parades?

The same reason many choose not to attend other parades. What makes you think he or any politician has to attend ANY such parades?

I speak only for myself but I find politicians who show up for gay pride who are not gay do so to pander for votes from the gay community.

I find politicians pander to specific ethnic and interest groups through public displays. They use these groups as picture ops to piggy back on the event and make themselves more popular.

Do you ever think some politicians do not want to use people as props to get votes? You think Trudeau showing up to every gay pride parade wearing the identical pink shirt and white pants is  not to pander for gay votes. You think the gay coin was not an attempt to pander gays for votes.

Symbolic tokenism which many politicians are part of can be meaningful, i.e., war ceremonies, but it can also be phony and crass.

You obviously think everyone should be like Trudeau and prance about jamming their face into photo ops. I for one find him an insincere phony pandering manipulate picture hog.

He needs to be more concerned about the ethical issues he can't understand or the out of control spending he is responsible for and less about grinning like a hyena for photo ops.



Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2019, 09:31:53 am
Are police paid to be in the Pride parade in uniform?
I donít know.
Why donít you find out? I think you have already made up your mind.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: queenmandy85 on May 18, 2019, 11:23:44 am
Rather than pandering, it may be to show support.
Speculation based on bias is deciet. We do not know what is in the PM's mind.
Why would the police need to spy on the participants of the Pride Parade. They are there to show support and, if neccessary, serve and protect. Thinking a Police officer is spying on you is either paranoia or guilt.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: kimmy on May 18, 2019, 03:04:31 pm
Then I can certainly see how police have created this problem for themselves, in Edmonton and in Toronto.

If you're in uniform, being paid, on duty ... then you are not just participating in the parade. So stand aside and monitor for any problems, like police always do at parades.

If you're an off duty officer and just participating in the parade for personal reasons, don't wear a uniform.

You can't have it both ways.
You can't pretend to be participants when you're really on duty policing the participants.

BLM was right.

This is a bizarre conspiracy theory.

The police participation in these parades is not an "undercover in plain-sight" sting operation to keep tabs on homosexuals and other undesirables.

Police participate in these parades to show support for the gay community, which is significant in light of the historical harassment of gay Canadians by police forces, particularly the Toronto police and to a less infamous extent the Edmonton police as well.

 -k
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2019, 05:14:40 pm
Uniformed police participating in Fraser Valley Pride has never been an issue. On the other hand, the event hasnít been held hostage by special interests like some other cities.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Granny on May 18, 2019, 09:27:24 pm
Uniformed police participating in Fraser Valley Pride has never been an issue. On the other hand, the event hasnít been held hostage by special interests like some other cities.
Are they paid?
Are they armed?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2019, 10:00:24 pm
Are they paid?
Are they armed?

Don't know.
What does it matter, do you think they are going to shoot someone?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2019, 12:11:33 am
THESE GAY COP BASTARDS NEED TO BE BANNED THEY ARE CLEARLY AN AGGRESSIVE MENACE TO PEOPLE OF COLOUR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esGTXjeqr5g
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2019, 12:13:46 am
BAN THIS VILE MENACE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhVnDIpBvTE
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 08:15:35 am
Uniformed police participating in Fraser Valley Pride has never been an issue. On the other hand, the event hasnít been held hostage by special interests like some other cities.

"Special interests" ?  :D  I think I have discovered a new code word....

"Gay people" = NOT special interests
"Gay people who voice their opinions on some issue" = special interests
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 08:16:32 am
THESE GAY COP BASTARDS NEED TO BE BANNED THEY ARE CLEARLY AN AGGRESSIVE MENACE TO PEOPLE OF COLOUR
 

IOW I HAVE DECIDED THAT BLACK LGBTQ PEOPLE EXPERIENCE INVALID EMOTIONS WITH REGARDS TO POLICE.  THIS STRAIGHT WHITE MALE WILL BE VETOING THEM - NEXT ISSUE PLEASE.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 10:04:29 am
"Special interests" ?  :D  I think I have discovered a new code word....

"Gay people" = NOT special interests
"Gay people who voice their opinions on some issue" = special interests

Why would you think I was referring to gay people in general?.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 10:11:55 am
A NZ reaction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/new-zealand-pride-parade-in-chaos-after-ban-on-police-sparks-mass-withdrawals
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 10:20:16 am
Why would you think I was referring to gay people in general?.

When I said 'gay people = NOT special interests' I was referring to your point of view.

But 'special interests' is a term very likely to be used against gays by anecdotal Republicans.  So it's a code word for 'a group of people who want something I don't want' when I consider your and the Republicans.  I just found it amusing that you found 'special interests' INSIDE the LGBTQ group.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 10:41:13 am
When I said 'gay people = NOT special interests' I was referring to your point of view.

But 'special interests' is a term very likely to be used against gays by anecdotal Republicans.  So it's a code word for 'a group of people who want something I don't want' when I consider your and the Republicans.  I just found it amusing that you found 'special interests' INSIDE the LGBTQ group.

There are special interests inside every group. Itís even in the title, LGBTQ.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: kimmy on May 19, 2019, 01:56:36 pm
"Special interests" ?  :D  I think I have discovered a new code word....

"Gay people" = NOT special interests
"Gay people who voice their opinions on some issue" = special interests

Us white cis-scum homos are privileged oppressors now, Michael. If you're not non-white or trans, you go to the back with the straight people.  Haven't you been following the thread?

 -k
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2019, 03:01:06 pm
IOW I HAVE DECIDED THAT BLACK LGBTQ PEOPLE EXPERIENCE INVALID EMOTIONS WITH REGARDS TO POLICE.  THIS STRAIGHT WHITE MALE WILL BE VETOING THEM - NEXT ISSUE PLEASE.

Being uncomfortable around uniformed police is a valid emotion, but does that mean you get to hijack a parade and use coercive tactics to demand they be banned?  Especially these cops who are also gay and just seem to be enjoyed the parade themselves?

I really don't care in the end.  Watching the left destroy each other based on some kind of oppression Olympics is interesting.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 06:39:13 pm
There are special interests inside every group. Itís even in the title, LGBTQ.

"Special interests" is one of those weird pejoratives that means nothing but is used against people when there is a lack of bad things to say.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 06:39:54 pm
Us white cis-scum homos are privileged oppressors now, Michael. If you're not non-white or trans, you go to the back with the straight people.  Haven't you been following the thread?

 -k

What does that have to do with co-opting a silly word used against LGBTQ generally in the past ?  Does that make it ok ?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 06:41:51 pm
Being uncomfortable around uniformed police is a valid emotion, but does that mean you get to hijack a parade and use coercive tactics to demand they be banned?  Especially these cops who are also gay and just seem to be enjoyed the parade themselves?

You seem to be asking what is 'ok' for protests.  Why don't you tell me what is 'ok' and whether your definition could have been used in the past to convince those opposed to past protests. 

Quote
I really don't care in the end.  Watching the left destroy each other based on some kind of oppression Olympics is interesting.

I think it's sad but also heartening if they can start a dialogue that brings the police together with POC.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 08:09:44 pm

I think it's sad but also heartening if they can start a dialogue that brings the police together with POC.

Banning someone is nothing more than trying to start a dialog on your terms. Donít be surprised if they are less than interested.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 08:11:12 pm
Banning someone is nothing more than trying to start a dialog on your terms. Donít be surprised if they are less than interested.

They are talking though, I think.

Edited to add: Also - if black people don't trust the police, it's not the black people's problem to solve really.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 09:05:49 pm
They are talking though, I think.

Edited to add: Also - if black people don't trust the police, it's not the black people's problem to solve really.

Itís certainly at least partly their problem, unless you think every cop is a racist.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 19, 2019, 09:09:58 pm
Itís certainly at least partly their problem, unless you think every cop is a racist.

It's not their problem to solve, I will say again.  They don't seem to be protesting because they're arrested more often for crimes they committed.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 19, 2019, 09:23:17 pm
It's not their problem to solve, I will say again.  They don't seem to be protesting because they're arrested more often for crimes they committed.

Police tend to go where the crime is. Itís their job.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 20, 2019, 03:35:39 am
You seem to be asking what is 'ok' for protests.  Why don't you tell me what is 'ok' and whether your definition could have been used in the past to convince those opposed to past protests. 

Protest is fine and good.  But in the case of the Toronto parade, peaceful protest does not include physically stopping a parade and holding it hostage until someone agrees to your demands.  That would be disturbing the peace or some other such illegal act.  Protest is essentially an act of free speech, it doesn't include physical acts of coercion like physically blocking a parade.

In the case of Edmonton Pride, protest is fine but the whole issue here is if the protest demands are valid or not. 
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 20, 2019, 06:49:36 am
Police tend to go where the crime is. Itís their job.

Hmmm.... I wonder why they're so upset then ?  i guess they are unreasonable people, huh ?  Good thing we don't pay attention to protestors.  Except those 200 people who drove to Ottawa in trucks and made the top of the CBC news because "Trudeau shut down the pipeline"

Now they had a point, right ?
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 20, 2019, 06:53:34 am
Protest is fine and good.  But in the case of the Toronto parade, peaceful protest does not include physically stopping a parade and holding it hostage until someone agrees to your demands.  That would be disturbing the peace or some other such illegal act.  Protest is essentially an act of free speech, it doesn't include physical acts of coercion like physically blocking a parade.

Hmmm.   How much have you studied protest ?  It does include civil disobedience, and stopping people from everyday tasks yes.

Quote
In the case of Edmonton Pride, protest is fine but the whole issue here is if the protest demands are valid or not.

What does Lawrence Bearse think ?

(https://i.imgur.com/WYuIY6r.png)
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 20, 2019, 09:27:25 am
Hmmm.... I wonder why they're so upset then ?  i guess they are unreasonable people, huh ?  Good thing we don't pay attention to protestors.  Except those 200 people who drove to Ottawa in trucks and made the top of the CBC news because "Trudeau shut down the pipeline"

Now they had a point, right ?

So is Pride a protest or a celebration? Make up your mind.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 20, 2019, 09:29:18 am
So is Pride a protest or a celebration? Make up your mind.

I didn't say anything about that, but to me it's a protest that turned to a celebration over time.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: wilber on May 20, 2019, 09:30:50 am
I didn't say anything about that, but to me it's a protest that turned to a celebration over time.

Well you seem conflicted.
Title: Re: Edmonton Pride Festival 2019 canceled.
Post by: MH on May 20, 2019, 09:36:19 am
Well you seem conflicted.

I don't think so.  Many protests and conflicts become celebrations... sometimes as a part of the reconciliation, healing or peace process.  Guy Fawkes day ?  Labour Day ?  May Day ?  Those come to mind.  Pride was almost an underground event in Toronto at its inception, in an era where homosexuality was equated to pedophilia, and the idea of 'normalizing' gayness was seen as the 'gay agenda' pushed by 'special interests'.

Now Trans people and people of colour are saying they have things they want us to pay attention to.  But god damn, my parade was delayed...

Look - I'm not saying that all their demands need to be met.  See the photo above, for an example of what 'demands' look like at the start of negotiations.  I personally think it's great when the cops have a presence, but the rift between them and black people needs to get looked at.  Maybe this can help.