Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: MH on April 05, 2019, 04:38:59 am


Title: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on April 05, 2019, 04:38:59 am
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn8.openculture.com%2F2019%2F04%2F02215114%2Fno-religion-trend.jpg&hash=79f8dd08c34d96b2d0c22cdbc2d93ad2cf13f8b0)
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Not all of those exiting the pews have renounced their faith or converted to another, but huge numbers have joined the ranks of those who claim “no religion” in survey and polling data. Their numbers are now equivalent to Catholics and evangelicals, the two religious groups most in decline behind mainline Protestant churches. 

In 2014, 78% of the unaffiliated, according to Pew polling, were raised in and walked away from a religion. The shift in identity among young people tends to correlate with a shift in politics.

http://www.openculture.com/2019/04/the-nones-are-now-as-big-as-catholics-evangelicals-in-the-united-states.html

You will see a big shift away from christian/moral policies being proposed as the religious folk die off.  Freedom of religion is working :)
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on April 05, 2019, 04:41:38 am
(https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/06/PF_13.06.26_CanadaRelLandscape-12.png)

Similar in Canada - 6X increase since the early 70s
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: cybercoma on April 05, 2019, 10:01:15 am
I don't have the studies in front of me, but religion isn't actually dying per se. Like all other things, it's becoming modernized, which means people are taking more individual control over their spirituality. The euphemism for Catholics is "cafeteria Catholics" because they pick and choose the parts of the doctrine that has the most meaning to them. Many of these people have personal religiosity and spirituality that they feel doesn't fit with the large organized churches, but are still very much religious in an individual way. This is difficult to capture because they will often respond "no religion," as in they're not affiliated with any particular Church, sect, or congregation, but they are indeed religious in a modernized way. Society is becoming more liberal (as in individual liberties and freedoms) and this is just another area where individuality and freedom of choice has changed social organization.

Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Goddess on April 05, 2019, 03:23:55 pm
I've been following the decline of religion for quite a while now.

This is about JW's:

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Jehovah’s Witnesses have the lowest retention rate relative to any other U.S. religious group. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group.

My personal experience with the group agrees with this - nearly all the kids my kids grew up with - have left the group or are only there because they don't want to lose their families.  I believe the retention rate would be much, much lower if they eliminated the shunning policy.  It's reflected in my own family - Out of myself and 4 other siblings, only 2 are PIMI, the rest of us are POMO.  Out of 8 grandchildren, only 3 are PIMI, 2 are PIMO and the rest are POMO.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Goddess on April 05, 2019, 03:27:23 pm
Sorry, I realized some may not know the acronyms:

PIMI - Physically In, Mentally In

PIMO - Physically In, Mentally Out (can't physically leave)

POMO - Physically Out, Mentally Out

POMI - Physically Out, Mentally In


PIMO's and POMI's is the worst place to be at.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on April 10, 2019, 12:08:34 am
Sorry, I realized some may not know the acronyms:

PIMI - Physically In, Mentally In

PIMO - Physically In, Mentally Out (can't physically leave)

POMO - Physically Out, Mentally Out

POMI - Physically Out, Mentally In


PIMO's and POMI's is the worst place to be at.

The Jewish population is also on the decline.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Sir Humphrey on April 12, 2019, 05:47:38 pm
That's what I am: a cafeteria catholic. Although I don't seem to go to mass anymore, so maybe I'm more along the lines of disaffected. There are many things the Church--in Rome and in the United States--needs to do before I get back. Other than that, I read the Bible on my own--mostly for shits and giggles--and interpret it the way I feel like.

I truly wonder how many are like me.

That said, I wonder if religion is really dying in the United States, why some religious elements seem to be as vocal as ever.

As far as Judaism, that's probably the after effects of the Third Reich's ethnic cleansing. I don't think they ever really recovered from that.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 12, 2019, 06:35:07 pm
I don't have the studies in front of me, but religion isn't actually dying per se. Like all other things, it's becoming modernized, which means people are taking more individual control over their spirituality. The euphemism for Catholics is "cafeteria Catholics" because they pick and choose the parts of the doctrine that has the most meaning to them. Many of these people have personal religiosity and spirituality that they feel doesn't fit with the large organized churches, but are still very much religious in an individual way. This is difficult to capture because they will often respond "no religion," as in they're not affiliated with any particular Church, sect, or congregation, but they are indeed religious in a modernized way. Society is becoming more liberal (as in individual liberties and freedoms) and this is just another area where individuality and freedom of choice has changed social organization.

If you were raised in the West, it's on the steady decline.  It won't die, but it certainly isn't relevant like it was.  Immigrants are helping to keep it alive, they come from much more religious cultures.  But the West will beat the religion of the brains of many of their children and grandchildren.

It's nice to have a system of "moral" beliefs, and a community to feel a part of of, but not when it's based on nonsense that science keeps disproving more and more.  I hope religion continues to erode, and it's replaced by some kinds of spiritual systems of belief that rely on science too.  You can believe the world and the universe and love are beautiful things without the fire & brimstone & ghosts.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on April 12, 2019, 10:31:14 pm

As far as Judaism, that's probably the after effects of the Third Reich's ethnic cleansing. I don't think they ever really recovered from that.

It's intermarriage, combined with the low birth rate for the Jewish community. 

Israel is where the Jewish community is really increasing in population.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Sir Humphrey on April 13, 2019, 01:51:43 pm
israel must be really, really crowded.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on April 26, 2019, 03:55:18 pm
israel must be really, really crowded.

There are about 6,500,000 Jews in Israel, which is about 75% of the population of the country.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: ?Impact on April 26, 2019, 03:59:08 pm
There are about 6,500,000 Jews in Israel, which is about 75% of the population of the country.

There are about 6 million in the US, and another million between Canada, UK, and France. In the rest of the world, it would be about a million total.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 08:56:51 am
So is the end of religion reflected in the rise of narcissist politics ?

Ie. The good part of religion drains out and leaves the chauvinism only.  The bad part of materialism and egoism remains unchecked because the moralizing of religion is replaced by an odd moralist patriotism.

We need a codified moral sphere, or a new shared morality embodied in a group of people or a movement.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 03, 2020, 10:01:54 am
So is the end of religion reflected in the rise of narcissist politics ?

Religions are inherently narcissistic.  “I’m right, you’r wrong...  one true god...  blah, blah”.   Narcissist politics is perfect for religion.  Why would you think it isn’t?


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Ie. The good part of religion drains out and leaves the chauvinism only.  The bad part of materialism and egoism remains unchecked because the moralizing of religion is replaced by an odd moralist patriotism.

The moralizing of religion never did work...  unless you think things like gay marriage, or equal rights for women were contained within those religious morals...   Religion is dragged kicking and screaming by progressive society.

Quote
We need a codified moral sphere, or a new shared morality embodied in a group of people or a movement.

How is it coded in religion now?  Give me an example.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 10:14:35 am
1. Religions are inherently narcissistic.
2. Why would you think it isn’t?
3. The moralizing of religion never did work... 
4. unless you think things like gay marriage, or equal rights for women were contained within those religious morals...   Religion is dragged kicking and screaming by progressive society.
5. How is it coded in religion now?  Give me an example.

1. I can't disagree more.  That's a perversion of religion.  You CAN accurately say that it's a feature of religions as observed but few religions I am aware of have inherent narcissism.
2. Because religious teachings go against selfishness.  Perversions of religion promote selfishness.
3. I think it very much achieved its goals as evidenced by the success of cultures with a religious framework.
4. And yet the roots of religion thrive in progressivism.
5. The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as you want to be treated.  Leviticus 19:18
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: eyeball on December 03, 2020, 10:53:40 am
We need a codified moral sphere, or a new shared morality embodied in a group of people or a movement.

What we really need are agreed upon facts embodied by reality.  The explosion of 'beliefs' populating the vacuum following the rise of atheism these days remind me of the explosions of diversity that mark the boundary between epochs. Hopefully they'll be short-lived but the capacity for self-delusion never mind the apparent willingness to be deluded by others seems ridiculously strong.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 12:08:31 pm
1. What we really need are agreed upon facts embodied by reality. 
2. The explosion of 'beliefs' populating the vacuum following the rise of atheism these days remind me of the explosions of diversity that mark the boundary between epochs.
3. Hopefully they'll be short-lived but the capacity for self-delusion never mind the apparent willingness to be deluded by others seems ridiculously strong.
1. That too.  But to agree on something it means to put yourself in a relationship of respect with others, and with authority also.
2. Covered here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OisdFRGlK-Y
3. Religion ostensibly had sky gods above... looking down on us... but the idiots actually never used to lie because they were ascared.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Montgomery on December 03, 2020, 12:09:09 pm
What we really need are agreed upon facts embodied by reality.  The explosion of 'beliefs' populating the vacuum following the rise of atheism these days remind me of the explosions of diversity that mark the boundary between epochs. Hopefully they'll be short-lived but the capacity for self-delusion never mind the apparent willingness to be deluded by others seems ridiculously strong.

Highly intelligent people aren't being deluded by others of less intelligence. They're already indoctrinated into being believers as children who didn't have the mental capacity to avoid it. They are imprinted with religious beliefs for life, just as a baby duckling will be imprinted with the belief that the Fox is it's mother if the duckling see the fox before seeing it's real mother.

When parents stop the child abuse of brainwashing children, religious beliefs will come much closer to dying out.

Christianity can't save itself by rewriting their bibles to suit modern day understanding. An attempt at doing that would blow their cover.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2020, 12:17:37 pm
Some people come to religion later in life. If it makes someone's life better I don't have a problem with it, as long as it doesn't try and dictate how I live.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 12:29:12 pm
Some people come to religion later in life. If it makes someone's life better I don't have a problem with it, as long as it doesn't try and dictate how I live.

I don't think it makes you good or bad, but it's an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible, IMO.  So there's some utility in it.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2020, 12:38:36 pm
I don't think it makes you good or bad, but it's an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible, IMO.  So there's some utility in it.

I guess it can be but generalizations rarely really explain anything.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 12:40:29 pm
I guess it can be but generalizations rarely really explain anything.

Generally true.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Montgomery on December 03, 2020, 12:54:15 pm
I don't think it makes you good or bad, but it's an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible, IMO.  So there's some utility in it.

If you think religious people are gullible, you're not understanding religious indoctrination at childhood. Believe me, there are nuclear physicists who are deeply religious.

Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 01:08:16 pm
1. If you think religious people are gullible   
2. Believe me, there are nuclear physicists who are deeply religious.
1. I didn't say that and I don't think that
2. I know - I just shot one in Tehran last week.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: eyeball on December 03, 2020, 01:21:33 pm
3. Religion ostensibly had sky gods above... looking down on us... but the idiots actually never used to lie because they were ascared.

Its interesting that the main impetus for becoming a "none" in the article you linked points to; One of the biggest demographic stories of the last few decades, the rise of the “nones” has been interpreted as a threat and as an inevitable reckoning for corrupt and scandal-ridden institutions driving millions of people out of churches across the country.

Seems clear to me the very same threat exists to the institution of government for the very same reason.
 
Speaking of 'looking down on people' and how beliefs shape our politics your observation is the fundamental basis for my belief that politicians and government should be under our constant sousveillance (the opposite of surveillance - viewing from below instead of above).  People are afraid of lying when they think they're being observed and I doubt the direction from which they're being observed would matter if they knew there'd be real consequences. That should be a pretty big take away from the demographic and political story the data and conclusions you've posted tell.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 01:42:48 pm
 
Speaking of 'looking down on people' and how beliefs shape our politics your observation is the fundamental basis for my belief that politicians and government should be under our constant sousveillance (the opposite of surveillance - viewing from below instead of above).   

I remember this idea.  How about we just make everyone's bank account public when we introduce the new money system ?
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Montgomery on December 03, 2020, 01:51:32 pm
1. I didn't say that and I don't think that
2. I know - I just shot one in Tehran last week.

Are you suggesting that you approve of political assassinations by the apartheid regime?

Quote
...............,]but it's an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible, IMO.

It's just that it sounded so much like you were suggesting that religion is an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible. But I guess it's possible that you didn't mean it that way?

Or maybe you didn't understand my point that religious people aren't necessarily gullible people. Some are highly intelligent and I feel safe in suggesting that most are as smart as you and some as smart or smarter than me.

Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Omni on December 03, 2020, 01:57:17 pm
Are you suggesting that you approve of political assassinations by the apartheid regime?

It's just that it sounded so much like you were suggesting that religion is an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible. But I guess it's possible that you didn't mean it that way?

Or maybe you didn't understand my point that religious people aren't necessarily gullible people. Some are highly intelligent and I feel safe in suggesting that most are as smart as you and some as smart or smarter than me.

I suggest that most religious people, gullible as they are, will easily fulfill the tail end of your comments.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 02:03:11 pm
1. Are you suggesting that you approve of political assassinations by the apartheid regime?

2. It's just that it sounded so much like you were suggesting that religion is an auto-pilot form of morality for the gullible. But I guess it's possible that you didn't mean it that way?

3. Or maybe you didn't understand my point that religious people aren't necessarily gullible people.

4. Some are highly intelligent and I feel safe in suggesting that most are as smart as you and some as smart or smarter than me.
1. I'm suggesting that I actually committed the act.
2. There are thinking people who are religious and they consider their morality and their acts carefully and heed the philosophy of the golden rule.  And there are people who don't steal because they are afraid satan will sodomize them in hell for eternity.
3. If religious meant gullible I wouldn't have to guess which one you are.
4. I TOLD you I shot one in cold blood in Tehran.    I don't know how smart I am but I'm good at close range with a Webley Bulldog Revolver.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Montgomery on December 03, 2020, 03:04:41 pm
1. I'm suggesting that I actually committed the act.
2. There are thinking people who are religious and they consider their morality and their acts carefully and heed the philosophy of the golden rule.  And there are people who don't steal because they are afraid satan will sodomize them in hell for eternity.
3. If religious meant gullible I wouldn't have to guess which one you are.
4. I TOLD you I shot one in cold blood in Tehran.    I don't know how smart I am but I'm good at close range with a Webley Bulldog Revolver.

Having to correct your ignorance has hurt your feelings and the same with Omni. **** off and play in the traffic.
I have better things to do then play your childish games.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Omni on December 03, 2020, 03:38:43 pm
Having to correct your ignorance has hurt your feelings and the same with Omni. **** off and play in the traffic.
I have better things to do then play your childish games.

I think it's quite obvious who's feelings are hurt. There, there.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 03:41:15 pm
Having to correct your ignorance has hurt your feelings and the same with Omni. **** off and play in the traffic.
I have better things to do then play your childish games.

Why do you think my feelings were hurt ?
You already played and lost.

If you realized that I'm not an assassin you hopefully realized I'm a successful jester...
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: guest78 on December 03, 2020, 03:55:08 pm
Having to correct your ignorance has hurt your feelings and the same with Omni. **** off and play in the traffic.
I have better things to do then play your childish games.
He can be quite childish sometimes.  I’ve experienced it myself.  He likes to pretend he’s above it all though.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 03, 2020, 04:01:31 pm
Religion is brainwashing in order to socially control the masses.

More people started graduating high school, then college/university.  This means more people know science, and critical thinking, and read books.

Education and critical thinking is destroying religion.  If you think the world is 4000 years old and believe in Adam and Eve you lack education.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: eyeball on December 03, 2020, 04:58:32 pm
I remember this idea.  How about we just make everyone's bank account public when we introduce the new money system ?
It would be way more efficient to just sousveil a much smaller number of powerful people within upper levels of government than surveilling everyone's bank account.  Its a mistake to think power and wealth are things that just go together like peas and carrots. They're far more like space and time and basically one and the same thing. Given how wealth concentrates near the top keeping an eye on power should let us follow most of the money too.  If we concentrate honesty at the top of our society and let it trickle down through the rest wealth might actually start flowing that way too for a change.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2020, 05:18:57 pm
Having to correct your ignorance has hurt your feelings and the same with Omni. **** off and play in the traffic.
I have better things to do then play your childish games.

Zero sense of humour as well. No surprise.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2020, 05:33:23 pm
Quote
I don't know how smart I am but I'm good at close range with a Webley Bulldog Revolver.

Nice touch. Have you read Greenmantle?
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: guest78 on December 03, 2020, 06:38:39 pm
Religion is brainwashing in order to socially control the masses.

More people started graduating high school, then college/university.  This means more people know science, and critical thinking, and read books.

Education and critical thinking is destroying religion.  If you think the world is 4000 years old and believe in Adam and Eve you lack education.
Complete nonsense.  The only people trying to control the masses nowadays is the mainstream media, global warming alarmists, and Branch Covidians.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Omni on December 03, 2020, 06:53:31 pm
Complete nonsense.  The only people trying to control the masses nowadays is the mainstream media, global warming alarmists, and Branch Covidians.

As usual one can assume the religion you are sucked into is the bullshit coming out of donny trump daily. Down on your knees little boy.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: guest78 on December 03, 2020, 07:02:12 pm
As usual one can assume the religion you are sucked into is the bullshit coming out of donny trump daily. Down on your knees little boy.
You’re the one living on your knees.  Now back in your house and put on your mask slave!
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: MH on December 03, 2020, 07:05:24 pm
Nice touch. Have you read Greenmantle?

To be honest I know zero about guns but to complete the joke I researched about 5 websites to find a model that would be suitably odd and quaint.  That one looked positively 1940s gumshoe detective so I picked it.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2020, 07:19:50 pm
To be honest I know zero about guns but to complete the joke I researched about 5 websites to find a model that would be suitably odd and quaint.  That one looked positively 1940s gumshoe detective so I picked it.

More like 1900 but I loved it.
Title: Re: Religion Dying in the US
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 12:27:00 am
Complete nonsense.  The only people trying to control the masses nowadays is the mainstream media, global warming alarmists, and Branch Covidians.

I order you not to have sex before marriage or else burn in hell.