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Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 10:09:14 am


Title: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 10:09:14 am
Updates and analysis can be posted here.

A ) I wonder where the red white and blue plane is - maybe maintenance.  The grey of the regular CC-150 is just so drab for the leader of a middle power

B ) the first handshake looked surprisingly warm.  Trudeau did not roll his eyes.  Positive.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 13, 2017, 11:06:01 am
At the end of WW2 more than a million Canadians were serving in the military, and we had the third largest navy in the world. But that was then and this is now and we are NOT a middle power.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: msj on February 13, 2017, 11:09:33 am
I was worried for Trump.

Remember, Trudeau has knocked a Tory unconscious before. 
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: kimmy on February 13, 2017, 11:38:04 am
I was worried for Trump.

Remember, Trudeau has knocked a Tory unconscious before.

I am not even kidding in suggesting that if Trump has seen the video of Trudeau beating the **** out of Patrick Brazeau, that would shape Trump's opinion of Trudeau far more than any issue of substance.  I'm thinking that instantly changes Trump's view from "sad, irrelevant" to "high energy! high impact! A winner!"

 -k
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 11:52:08 am
At the end of WW2 more than a million Canadians were serving in the military, and we had the third largest navy in the world. But that was then and this is now and we are NOT a middle power.

Power isn't only military.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: BC_cheque on February 13, 2017, 01:19:05 pm
This was an article about Trump's 'weird handshake' which Trudeau seems to have been warned about and avoided as a result.

http://theslot.jezebel.com/trump-tried-and-failed-to-pull-his-strange-trademark-ha-1792300523?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_facebook&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

There's a Washington Post link in the article with several videos of Trump's 'handshake'.  Funny.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: Blueblood on February 13, 2017, 01:52:02 pm
Power isn't only military.

Power is where it is perceived to be.  For example with Russia punching above their weight on matters.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: msj on February 13, 2017, 03:11:43 pm
Easy to punch above weight when you have a video of women peeing on the President's face.... ;D
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 13, 2017, 03:18:28 pm
Power isn't only military.

Maybe you could explain what power Canada has? It's not like we even give much in foreign aid compared to a lot of countries so where does this power originate?
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 13, 2017, 03:20:47 pm
Power is where it is perceived to be.  For example with Russia punching above their weight on matters.

Russia has lots of military power and isn't afraid to use it. It also has lots of oil money and doesn't give a damn about its people living in poverty, and no moral qualms about bribing foreign leaders, funding foreign extremist groups, or loaning large sums to foreign political parties, as they did to Le Pen in France. It also doesn't mind assassinating people abroad if they get mouthy. So sure, Russia punches above its weight. It's ruthless enough to do anything.

Canada... not so much.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 13, 2017, 03:21:21 pm
I am not even kidding in suggesting that if Trump has seen the video of Trudeau beating the **** out of Patrick Brazeau, that would shape Trump's opinion of Trudeau far more than any issue of substance.  I'm thinking that instantly changes Trump's view from "sad, irrelevant" to "high energy! high impact! A winner!"

 -k

Agreed. Trump would respect that and would be less likely to consider Trudeau a pathetic leftist weenie.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: the_squid on February 13, 2017, 03:26:57 pm
At the end of WW2 more than a million Canadians were serving in the military, and we had the third largest navy in the world. But that was then and this is now and we are NOT a middle power.

Could you get any more off topic???
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: Blueblood on February 13, 2017, 03:54:52 pm
Russia has lots of military power and isn't afraid to use it. It also has lots of oil money and doesn't give a damn about its people living in poverty, and no moral qualms about bribing foreign leaders, funding foreign extremist groups, or loaning large sums to foreign political parties, as they did to Le Pen in France. It also doesn't mind assassinating people abroad if they get mouthy. So sure, Russia punches above its weight. It's ruthless enough to do anything.

Canada... not so much.

Correct Russia has more power on the world stage than Canada.

As Tyrion Lannister says:  your in the great game now and the great game is terrifying!
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: ?Impact on February 13, 2017, 04:44:47 pm
What a masterful performance by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He clearly set the agenda, getting one of his major initiatives (women in the economy) to dominate the day. I just hope the late night television hosts don't make too much about his articulate responses to reporters questions, while Trump blathered on avoiding answering anything directly and did his usual diversion to being the bestest and how things were becoming great, great, great. Trump even managed to talk about his biggest election win, although he did manage to catch himself and qualified it by electoral college.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 06:10:12 pm
Maybe you could explain what power Canada has? It's not like we even give much in foreign aid compared to a lot of countries so where does this power originate?

The claim of middle power is pretty uncontroversial.  We're at the level above places like Spain and below places like Italy but in both of their company. It means we contribute around the world and have some political, economic, and military clout.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 06:14:24 pm
What a masterful performance by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He clearly set the agenda, getting one of his major initiatives (women in the economy) to dominate the day. I just hope the late night television hosts don't make too much about his articulate responses to reporters questions, while Trump blathered on avoiding answering anything directly and did his usual diversion to being the bestest and how things were becoming great, great, great. Trump even managed to talk about his biggest election win, although he did manage to catch himself and qualified it by electoral college.

I thought Trump was going to teach Trudeau a lesson.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: kimmy on February 13, 2017, 08:03:50 pm
I thought Trump was going to teach Trudeau a lesson.

Didn't want to get knocked out.

 -k
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 10:24:29 pm
Any bad words for Trudeau?  I'm hearing mutipartisan support.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2017, 10:37:00 pm
We'll see what "tweaking" means and they weren't going to agree on immigration anyway. Early days but so far it looks like he done good.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: Blueblood on February 14, 2017, 02:14:09 am
Any bad words for Trudeau?  I'm hearing mutipartisan support.

Nope all he had to do was be polite in trumps House which he was.  Good on him for saying that it's not his place to lecture people about how they do things.  Trump said it was very productive.

With that meeting and if Trudeau knows enough to stay out of trumps way as it appears trump won't go after Canada to our benefit, he might win the next election if we get back to 3% growth.

That's how good his meeting went.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2017, 11:53:09 am
Could you get any more off topic???

He said we were a middle power. I replied that we were not. If you don't like it, I suggest you take it up with him. Maybe you can get him suspended for being off topic.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2017, 11:55:31 am
The claim of middle power is pretty uncontroversial.  We're at the level above places like Spain and below places like Italy but in both of their company. It means we contribute around the world and have some political, economic, and military clout.

There are a lot of 'uncontroversial claims' made by the Canadian media/political/academic opinion makers which don't stand up very well to scrutiny. The truth is we contribute very little around the world, and have virtually no clout or influence.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2017, 11:59:06 am
In comparison to most countries in the world, that's categorically untrue.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: the_squid on February 14, 2017, 02:13:20 pm
There are a lot of 'uncontroversial claims' made by the Canadian media/political/academic opinion makers which don't stand up very well to scrutiny.

Like what?
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2017, 03:02:04 pm
In comparison to most countries in the world, that's categorically untrue.

Most countries in the world are shitholes. Being 'not' a shithole doesn't make you a middle power.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2017, 03:04:57 pm
Like what?

That Canada has an international reputation for peacekeeping. That we  have the best health care system in the world. That we're all enthusiastic in embracing multiculturalism and third world immigration. Among others.

As for our so-called middle power status, Pearson had that one moment, and ever since then Canada has been resting on its laurels as this great and noble and terribly admired country that all the rest of the world wants to hear from in times of crisis. The truth is nobody gives a damn what Canada has to say about anything out there.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: the_squid on February 14, 2017, 03:25:05 pm
That Canada has an international reputation for peacekeeping.

It does...  and hopefully, Canada will get back to do that.

Quote
That we  have the best health care system in the world. That we're all enthusiastic in embracing multiculturalism and third world immigration. Among others.

Please provide a cite for the claim that the media is saying these things.

Quote
As for our so-called middle power status, Pearson had that one moment, and ever since then Canada has been resting on its laurels as this great and noble and terribly admired country that all the rest of the world wants to hear from in times of crisis. The truth is nobody gives a damn what Canada has to say about anything out there.

So what "middle powers" are listened to in the world?
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2017, 04:09:03 pm
Most countries in the world are shitholes. Being 'not' a shithole doesn't make you a middle power.

I'm not sure what definition you're trying to invent.  Middle power means exactly that - you're in the middle of the countries that aren't shitholes (that's an incorrect description of most of the world).  That's us.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2017, 04:32:57 pm
So what "middle powers" are listened to in the world?

Ones that actually have power, be it military or economic, and the willingness to use it. The UK, France, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, Japan. These are all nations which regularly use their economic or military power to influence other countries around the world.

Canada has neither economic nor military power to wield. It's world influence is no greater than that of Sweden or Ireland.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: the_squid on February 14, 2017, 04:52:32 pm
How does Japan have more influence than Canada?  Be specific.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2017, 07:14:33 pm
Ones that actually have power, be it military or economic, and the willingness to use it. The UK, France, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran, Japan. These are all nations which regularly use their economic or military power to influence other countries around the world.

Canada has neither economic nor military power to wield. It's world influence is no greater than that of Sweden or Ireland.

How many aircraft to those countries regularly deploy to the Baltic?  How many bank branches do they have in central and South American?  How many ships do they have deployed in the Caribbean?  Off the West coast of Central America?  In the Atlantic and Caribbean?  How many troops do they have in Ukraine?  Latvia?  Iraq?  How many breakthroughs in AIDS and Ebola research have they made lately? made lately?   Canada is among the worlds top 20 countries in almost every category. 
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 15, 2017, 10:58:33 am
How does Japan have more influence than Canada?  Be specific.

The Japanese government is run by Japan's industry. It acts in furtherence of that industry around the world, in cooperation with industry. It uses both its foreign aid budget, guarantees for loans, and favorable trade incentives to clear the way for its industries to obtain resources from third world countries under very favorable conditions for Japanese industry. Nor is it above offering bribes.

I know you will suggest lots of countries do this, which is certainly true. But the Japanese are far and away more single-minded and ruthless than Canada could ever be.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: the_squid on February 15, 2017, 03:49:01 pm
The Japanese government is run by Japan's industry. It acts in furtherence of that industry around the world, in cooperation with industry. It uses both its foreign aid budget, guarantees for loans, and favorable trade incentives to clear the way for its industries to obtain resources from third world countries under very favorable conditions for Japanese industry. Nor is it above offering bribes.

I know you will suggest lots of countries do this, which is certainly true. But the Japanese are far and away more single-minded and ruthless than Canada could ever be.

You haven't said how, as a middle power, they have influence on world events.

You're also wrong about Japan's foreign aid.

Quote
Of the seven broad categories the index considers, Japan scores very poorly (14th or worse) in all but one (see chart). The only category where it makes a decent showing, landing in the middle of the pack, is in technology—a questionable measure that tries to capture global spillover effects from a country's R&D.

Start with aid. Although Japan gives large dollops of money each year, it also collects large debt payments from poor countries. Lenders have a right to be repaid, but this makes its net contribution look far less impressive than that of other rich countries. Nor are Japan's private citizens very generous: government aid aside, they give less than a cent each to poor countries. Only citizens in the southern European trio of Greece, Italy and Portugal are more miserly.

http://www.economist.com/node/2656985

I do agree that under Harper, Canada definitely lost influence as a middle power.  He was atrocious at international diplomacy.  It will take several more years to get back to the position Canada held in the 80s and 90s.

Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 15, 2017, 04:12:47 pm
You haven't said how, as a middle power, they have influence on world events.

They have influence on other countries where they choose to have it, for their own reasons. The Japanese have never shown much interest in world events which don't affect them.

Quote
I do agree that under Harper, Canada definitely lost influence as a middle power.

Agree with whom? Yourself? Canada has no more or less influence in the world under Harper than under Chretien. Which is to say we have had very little for the last twenty years.

Quote
He was atrocious at international diplomacy.

No, he just didn't make it a personal popularity contest. If a lot of Muslim countries didn't like that he supported Israel, he didn't care.
Maybe he just had more self confidence than Trudeau, who seems to constantly require reassurance that people like him.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: TimG on February 15, 2017, 04:15:46 pm
You're also wrong about Japan's foreign aid.
The economist dismisses the huge loans that Japan makes but that is euro-centrism at its worst. Investing in a country means you run the risk of never getting paid back and such loans are better described as charity when given to countries with extremely poor credit risks.  In many cases the loans are forgiven which does not count as aid under the Economist's rules but it should be. Also the Japanese do not distinguish between loans to dodgy regimes and aid which means they think their country is doing a lot.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 15, 2017, 04:17:00 pm
How many aircraft to those countries regularly deploy to the Baltic?  How many bank branches do they have in central and South American?  How many ships do they have deployed in the Caribbean?  Off the West coast of Central America?  In the Atlantic and Caribbean?  How many troops do they have in Ukraine?  Latvia?  Iraq?  How many breakthroughs in AIDS and Ebola research have they made lately? made lately?   Canada is among the worlds top 20 countries in almost every category.

And how many countries give a **** what Canada wants or says or does? We couldn't get even get Belgium to sign a trade agreement with us until the EU beat up on them. Power means influence. We have no influence around the world. We never have had. That so many liberals liked to puff out their chests with pride is merely a matter of people deluding themselves.

I'm reminded of a time, back in Mulroney's day, when he was leading the charge against apartheid. He was visiting one of the 'front line states' at the time, I forget for what sort of conference. I think it was Zambia. Anyway, there was a Canadian journalist in a cell in that country at the time, had been there for most of a year without charge. He was still there when they left. Mulroney didn't dare utter a peep about him and he and his people avoided responding when the press tried to bring it up.

Influence? Riiiight. We couldn't even tell a puny little nothing country like Zambia to let him go or charge him.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 15, 2017, 05:29:05 pm
And how many countries give a **** what Canada wants or says or does? We couldn't get even get Belgium to sign a trade agreement with us until the EU beat up on them. Power means influence. We have no influence around the world. We never have had.

Like I said - you're wrong, and repeating it won't change that.  We have more power than Sweden, and less than the UK.  That isn't none.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 16, 2017, 11:48:59 am
Like I said - you're wrong, and repeating it won't change that.  We have more power than Sweden, and less than the UK.  That isn't none.

Please do demonstrate where and when this power was used to Canada's benefit.
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2017, 01:26:35 pm
Please do demonstrate where and when this power was used to Canada's benefit.

I don't know what power you think it is that a middle power has.  Canada has some power and influence.  There are a lot of other countries that have some in the same class. 
Title: Re: Me Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: SirJohn on February 16, 2017, 03:46:23 pm
I don't know what power you think it is that a middle power has.  Canada has some power and influence.  There are a lot of other countries that have some in the same class.

If you can't then why are so many people on the Left so desperate to get it back?
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 19, 2017, 10:46:49 pm
When he got back to the Trump table, the President told Mr. Mulroney that “relationships are just great between Canada and the United States. Justin had a terrific trip down to Washington.”

Mr. Mulroney has taken on the role of Mr. Trudeau’s unofficial emissary to the United States, using his long-time personal connection to Mr. Trump and other members of his cabinet, as well as the President’s outside business advisory councils, to help shield Canada from America First protectionist policies.

Mr. Mulroney has developed a close bond with Mr. Trudeau despite belonging to different political parties. Pierre Trudeau and Mr. Mulroney were sworn enemies. Mr. Mulroney has never forgiven the elder Trudeau for his intervention that helped kill the Meech Lake accord, which Mr. Mulroney had championed to address Quebec’s isolation from the 1982 Constitution.

Since Mr. Trump’s election, Mr. Mulroney and former Canadian ambassador to Washington Derek Burney have acted as informal advisers on how to handle the Republican-led Congress and the Trump White House and cabinet secretaries.

A source said the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has said in private that the White House has found it easy and professional to work with Mr. Trudeau’s team of advisers that include principal secretary Gerald Butts, chief of staff Katie Telford and Canadian Ambassador to the United States David MacNaughton.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-receives-warm-welcome-at-trumps-mar-a-lago/article34085505/

For all of you that underestimated Trudeau - he is absolutely on top of this.  He is handling Trump better than any other world leader.
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 11:44:48 pm
When he got back to the Trump table, the President told Mr. Mulroney that “relationships are just great between Canada and the United States. Justin had a terrific trip down to Washington.”

Mr. Mulroney has taken on the role of Mr. Trudeau’s unofficial emissary to the United States, using his long-time personal connection to Mr. Trump and other members of his cabinet, as well as the President’s outside business advisory councils, to help shield Canada from America First protectionist policies.

Mr. Mulroney has developed a close bond with Mr. Trudeau despite belonging to different political parties. Pierre Trudeau and Mr. Mulroney were sworn enemies. Mr. Mulroney has never forgiven the elder Trudeau for his intervention that helped kill the Meech Lake accord, which Mr. Mulroney had championed to address Quebec’s isolation from the 1982 Constitution.

Since Mr. Trump’s election, Mr. Mulroney and former Canadian ambassador to Washington Derek Burney have acted as informal advisers on how to handle the Republican-led Congress and the Trump White House and cabinet secretaries.

A source said the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has said in private that the White House has found it easy and professional to work with Mr. Trudeau’s team of advisers that include principal secretary Gerald Butts, chief of staff Katie Telford and Canadian Ambassador to the United States David MacNaughton.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mulroney-receives-warm-welcome-at-trumps-mar-a-lago/article34085505/

For all of you that underestimated Trudeau - he is absolutely on top of this.  He is handling Trump better than any other world leader.

All Trudeau had to do was smile and nod and not pull a Lester Pearson. I'm pretty sure any Canadian delegation wanting access to the USA market will be pretty easy to work with.  It's also a lot easier dealing with a business friendly administration
Title: Re: Mr Trudeau Goes to Washington
Post by: JMT on February 20, 2017, 12:19:11 am
All Trudeau had to do was smile and nod and not pull a Lester Pearson. I'm pretty sure any Canadian delegation wanting access to the USA market will be pretty easy to work with.  It's also a lot easier dealing with a business friendly administration

It's impossible for you to give him credit, I take it?