Canadian Politics Today

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: Gorgeous Graham on February 07, 2019, 10:38:17 pm


Title: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 07, 2019, 10:38:17 pm
This is the most damning scandal yet faced by Trudeau as PM thus far I would say.  Now we have a clue as to possibly why Wilson-Raybould was mysteriously demoted from Justice Minister to Veterans Affairs Minister last month.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-snc-lavalin-fraud-corruption-1.5009578

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/john-ivison-wilson-raybould-couldnt-hide-her-disappointment-at-move-from-justice-minister/wcm/3ed0bd06-2db0-47fa-8608-88a7ec9dd723

If true, Kudos to her for standing her ground.  But would also like to know why she remained silent on this political corruption.   The PM has too much power, they can pressure any Minister to do as they please or remove them from their position.  Where are the checks and balances?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 07, 2019, 10:57:57 pm
If true, Kudos to her for standing her ground.  But would also like to know why she remained silent on this political corruption.   The PM has too much power, they can pressure any Minister to do as they please or remove them from their position.  Where are the checks and balances?
Why did this come out now? Perhaps she leaked what she could through back channels.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 07, 2019, 11:02:58 pm
The article I read earlier didn't directly blame Trudeau, only "the PMO".  But yes, this does not look good.

The PMO pressuring the Justice Minister to stop prosecution of a private company looks bad.

The PMO pressuring the Justice Minister to stop prosecution of a private company that is a big donor is worse.

Wilson-Reybould being demoted in the cabinet shuffle came as a surprise to a lot of observers.  If this is the reason why she got shuffled out of being Justice Minister...   that's pretty disgusting. This is an ugly story.   So far this is allegations from a single newspaper, so we shouldn't rush to judgment. But I can't imagine that the Globe And Mail would publish something like this without doing their homework.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 07, 2019, 11:06:42 pm
Why did this come out now? Perhaps she leaked what she could through back channels.

Hard to say.  Maybe her, maybe people who worked for her at the Dept. of Justice, who knows.  You're right the timing, a few weeks after the cabinet shuffle, is a bit suspicious...enough time for the Globe to investigate the story if leaked from someone connected.  Either way, it's good it came to light.

If true, this can easily bring down Trudeau, this smells like corruption at the highest levels, especially considering how slimy SNC-Lavalin is and that they are still allowed to bid on gov contracts.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 07, 2019, 11:47:06 pm
Why did this come out now? Perhaps she leaked what she could through back channels.


A former SNC executive just plead guilty to " helping a public servant commit a breach of trust" last week.  I wonder if that might have something to do with it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/pierre-duhaime-snc-lavalin-1.5000518

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 07, 2019, 11:52:07 pm
The article I read earlier...  But I can't imagine that the Globe And Mail would publish something like this without doing their homework.

the waldo is shocked, shocked I tells ya... shocked that it appears the G&M has put its original article behind a paywall and subsequently written:

Quote
The Globe and Mail never reported that officials in Mr. Trudeau’s office had directed Ms. Wilson-Raybould to take action – only that she was pressed to do so and declined.

Asked if the PMO exerted any influence whatsoever, Mr. Trudeau said: “As I’ve said, at no time did we direct the attorney-general, current or previous, to make any decision whatsoever in this matter."

This is the most damning scandal yet faced by Trudeau as PM thus far I would say. 

If true...

the waldo suggests you buried the lead!  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 07, 2019, 11:55:28 pm
A former SNC executive just plead guilty to " helping a public servant commit a breach of trust" last week.  I wonder if that might have something to do with it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/pierre-duhaime-snc-lavalin-1.5000518

ms. kimmy... you're confused (again)... that has nothin' to do with, "charges of embezzlement of funds, bribery and other wrongdoing related to contracts SNC had in Libya between 2001 and 2011". Did you actually read the G&M articles you referred to?  :-*
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 08, 2019, 12:13:01 am
If people in the PMO did this, they need to be fired.

If the PM was involved personally, he needs to resign.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 08, 2019, 06:31:13 am
Yep.   This smells like classic Liberal pushiness.  Sorry for your loss Waldo :D

Also this:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/bury-the-lede-versus-lead
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2019, 07:37:35 am
Yep. This smells like classic Liberal pushiness.  Sorry for your loss Waldo :D

your perpetual anti-Liberal/Trudeau bent is most amusing to read... even in your rush-to-judgement best!

Also this:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/bury-the-lede-versus-lead

(https://i.imgur.com/wwcfp3e.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 08, 2019, 08:16:57 am
your perpetual anti-Liberal/Trudeau bent is most amusing to read... even in your rush-to-judgement best!


Only a blood-oath loyalist would refer to me as anti-Liberal.  I have voted for them in the past, and have no bias against them.  But I can still criticize them and recognize their familiar flaws.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 08, 2019, 01:32:31 pm
Absolutely this should be investigated, sounds however like many people have rushed to judgment without any facts.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 09, 2019, 07:58:38 am
Here's something.  Somebody on a Facebook Group I follow posted that the former minister should be careful as Trudeau may try to have her assassinated.

I doubt anyone on this board thinks that, but it made me realize that a lot of people posting about politics now may actually think that the movies and shows like House of Cards are real.   :-[
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2019, 09:19:06 am
Here's something.  Somebody on a Facebook Group I follow posted that the former minister should be careful as Trudeau may try to have her assassinated.

I doubt anyone on this board thinks that, but it made me realize that a lot of people posting about politics now may actually think that the movies and shows like House of Cards are real.   :-[

Kellyanne Conway’s alternate facts.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 09, 2019, 09:28:17 am
Kellyanne Conway’s alternate facts.

No, I don't think KC posts such stuff.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 09, 2019, 10:32:37 am
Here's something.  Somebody on a Facebook Group I follow posted that the former minister should be careful as Trudeau may try to have her assassinated.

I doubt anyone on this board thinks that, but it made me realize that a lot of people posting about politics now may actually think that the movies and shows like House of Cards are real.   :-[

Or they follow US politics.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 09, 2019, 10:36:48 am
Why did this come out now? Perhaps she leaked what she could through back channels.

That seems to be what some Liberals are saying off-the-record:

Quote
Several Liberals approached Friday said they were confident the story came from Wilson-Raybould herself.

“She’s always sort of been in it for herself,” said one insider who didn’t want to be identified. “It’s never been about the government or the cabinet. Everything is very Jody-centric.”

The fear of reprisal for speaking about anything to do with the situation was running so high Friday most Liberals approached flatly refused.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4943451/jody-wilson-raybould-place-in-liberals/

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 09, 2019, 10:43:52 am
That seems to be what some Liberals are saying off-the-record:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4943451/jody-wilson-raybould-place-in-liberals/

Total speculation though.

And yeah, if (allegedly) you're demoted in cabinet because you stand up for the rule of law and democracy I can completely understand fear of reprisal.  If Trudeau demoted her for that, that sounds very illegal.  Reprisal is a form of harassment.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 09, 2019, 11:21:13 am
Here's something.  Somebody on a Facebook Group I follow posted that the former minister should be careful as Trudeau may try to have her assassinated.

I doubt anyone on this board thinks that, but it made me realize that a lot of people posting about politics now may actually think that the movies and shows like House of Cards are real.   :-[

It was only a matter of time before Canada got our own Alex Jones, Q-anon type conspiracy theories. "They gonna get Jody Raybould Wilson the same way they done got Seth Rich!"


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2019, 11:58:20 am
No, I don't think KC posts such stuff.

That's not what I mean't, I was referring to her comment that facts are whatever you want them to be.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on February 09, 2019, 12:54:03 pm
That seems to be what some Liberals are saying off-the-record:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4943451/jody-wilson-raybould-place-in-liberals/

 -k

A convenient way of discrediting someone, but it doesn't exonerate the PMO from anything, all any of them have offered are non-denial denials, or no comment, it sounds a lot like people who dont want to be caught in a lie.  Anyway, it's only about the prosecution of a company who bribed Libyan government officials while Ghadaffi was in power with 48 million dollars,  they also bribed someone in Quebec with 10 million dollars to get a hospital construction contract, they also had a scam to donate money to the liberals (o but 5 percent of it went to conservatives)  through its employees, among other scandals.  It certainly isnt one greedy senator  who was found not guilty and who paid back the money to us, even if it came from the conservatives.  This will turn into nothing, the Duffy thing was news for what, two years?  This will be ignored by most of our major media in a few days and you wonder why the conservatives felt the need to lie about paying back money they thought Duffy had stolen.  They simply dont get the same considerations the liberals do.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 09, 2019, 02:13:38 pm
they also had a scam to donate money to the liberals (o but 5 percent of it went to conservatives)  through its employees,

Yes, SNC Lavalin has a bad history. Note that the money you are talking about was all repaid by the parties concerned in 2016 when it was discovered. A single conservative candidate (Dean Del Mastro) had a scam that ran about 20% the size of the entire SNC Lavalin scam, through his cousins company. That is not to mention the many other scams he ran like tickets to a Mulroney speaking event sent to his riding association from companies and municipalities (all illegal). In short, crooked companies try to scam the system, and crooked conservative MPs try to scam the system.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 09, 2019, 06:25:41 pm
And yeah, if (allegedly) you're demoted in cabinet because you stand up for the rule of law and democracy I can completely understand fear of reprisal.  If Trudeau demoted her for that, that sounds very illegal.  Reprisal is a form of harassment.

if you accept (Veterans Affairs) is a demotion, you might also need to factor criticisms against Ms. Wilson-Raybould for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 10, 2019, 10:04:29 am
"Buried deep in the 2018 omnibus budget bill was a provision allowing corporations charged with certain offences to avoid prosecution by signing so-called “remediation agreements.” In place of convictions, fines and jail times, the company and its executives are obliged, in essence, to admit they did it, put back the money, and promise never to do it again. The amendment was inserted after a strenuous campaign of public advertising and private lobbying (14 meetings with officials in the prime minister’s office alone) by — who? — why yes, SNC-Lavalin."

"The issue was of more than academic concern to the company, which has since 2015 been facing charges of bribing public officials in Libya, in violation of federal anti-corruption legislation."


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-hard-to-overstate-seriousness-of-snc-lavalin-allegations
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 10, 2019, 01:15:06 pm
Willfully obstructing justice is a criminal offence. 

We don’t know if this actually happened, but if it did, it’s a very serious matter.   If it did happen, Wilson-Raybauld should have handled it at the time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 10, 2019, 01:34:01 pm
We don’t know if this actually happened, but if it did, it’s a very serious matter.   If it did happen, Wilson-Raybauld should have handled it at the time.
At this point I don't see why it is wrong for the PMO to ask about a politically sensitive case since these kinds of decisions do have a public interest aspect to them. The only real requirement is if the justice minister decides to get involved for political reasons it has to be written down and published. The justice minister disagreed with the PMO and there is no evidence that 'direction' was given to the prosecutors that did not follow the legal requirements for public notification.

Now the subsequent demotion of the justice minister raises eyebrows but in itself is not a real issue as long as the new justice minster follows the law requiring public notification of any instructions given to the prosecutors. i.e. the prime minister is entitled to appoint ministers that share his priorities.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 10, 2019, 01:42:03 pm
Willfully obstructing justice is a criminal offence. 

We don’t know if this actually happened, but if it did, it’s a very serious matter.   If it did happen, Wilson-Raybauld should have handled it at the time.

This could certainly come back to haunt Trudeau if the accusations prove to be true, but after listening to an interview with David Lematti, Raybould's replacement, I get a hint there may be some "jumping the gun" going on here. He was adamant there was no pressure put on either he or his predecessor  regarding dealings with SNC. The press will of course have a field day but let's see how it plays out.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 11, 2019, 09:54:40 am
This could certainly come back to haunt Trudeau if the accusations prove to be true, but after listening to an interview with David Lematti, Raybould's replacement, I get a hint there may be some "jumping the gun" going on here. He was adamant there was no pressure put on either he or his predecessor  regarding dealings with SNC. The press will of course have a field day but let's see how it plays out.


ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


Good Gawd give it a rest Sophie. Yer husband  phacked up big time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 11, 2019, 12:25:27 pm

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


Good Gawd give it a rest Sophie. Yer husband  phacked up big time.

The Squid has already applied the appropriate response to your (typical) nonsense. I'll leave it at that. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 12, 2019, 05:43:26 am

Now the subsequent demotion of the justice minister raises eyebrows but in itself is not a real issue as long as the new justice minster follows the law requiring public notification of any instructions given to the prosecutors. i.e. the prime minister is entitled to appoint ministers that share his priorities.

Wow.  I feel that this issue stinks even if there's no hard evidence but wow... you defending the govt.  I guess we're actually kind of an objective board here.   :o 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 12, 2019, 06:20:04 am
Wow.  I feel that this issue stinks even if there's no hard evidence but wow... you defending the govt.  I guess we're actually kind of an objective board here.
Despite what many assume, I am not a partisan. I try to look at each issue rationally and avoid jumping on bandwagons just because everyone else is.

In this case it is important to remember that the decision to prosecute and on what charges can be a political judgement because prosecutors have to consider the public interest. I can't see why the elected government should not have a role is deciding what the public interest is. The current system which makes any such involvement by politicians a matter of public record provides a good defense against politicians using this power to reward friends and punish enemies.

With the SNC-Lavalin case it is not clear what was said and the subsequent demotion of the MOJ is concerning so I agree it stinks. However, the simple fact of the PMO asking about a case and expressing an opinion is not, in itself, wrong. Nor is it wrong for MOJ the to direct prosecutors to use the provisions in the law to to negotiate a settlement wrong provided all of the instructions are in writing and made public. People need to keep these distinctions in mind as we get more information on what exactly happened.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 12, 2019, 10:09:29 am
In this case it is important to remember that the decision to prosecute and on what charges can be a political judgement because prosecutors have to consider the public interest. I can't see why the elected government should not have a role is deciding what the public interest is. The current system which makes any such involvement by politicians a matter of public record provides a good defense against politicians using this power to reward friends and punish enemies.

Is there any possible way of making sure that such involvement is part of the public record?

I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest. If SNC-Lavalin were the only engineering company in Canada, then maybe one could argue that their corruption at least helped keep Canadians employed. But in the McGill Hospital case, they obtained an edge over their competitors by bribing a McGill official to the tune of 10 million dollars. If SNC gets off with a slap on the wrist for using criminal tactics to win a $1.5 billion contract, clearly the message to their competitors is that they need to start bribing officials too.

The idea that SNC-Lavalin is too important to punish smacks of the "too big to jail" mentality that prevented any of the bad actors in the 2008 financial collapse from facing criminal charges.

With the SNC-Lavalin case it is not clear what was said and the subsequent demotion of the MOJ is concerning so I agree it stinks. However, the simple fact of the PMO asking about a case and expressing an opinion is not, in itself, wrong. Nor is it wrong for MOJ the to direct prosecutors to use the provisions in the law to to negotiate a settlement wrong provided all of the instructions are in writing and made public. People need to keep these distinctions in mind as we get more information on what exactly happened.

And judging from the Andrew Coyne excerpt that was posted earlier in this thread, these provisions in the law that Reybould-Wilson was allegedly pressured to use to "remediate" SNC-Lavalin out of trouble were snuck into an omnibus bill last January.  One can't help wonder if the "remediation" process in itself was invented with the intention of letting SNC-Lavalin escape their legal troubles with just a slap on the wrist.

Circumstances around this whole affair create an appearance of impropriety such that a full and transparent is required to clear the air.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 12, 2019, 10:33:04 am
Is there any possible way of making sure that such involvement is part of the public record?
The law requires that any instructions to be published in a Canadian legal journal. People can break the law but that can happen with any law.

I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest.
I don't have an opinion on this. I am only thinking of the principles involved. If the Liberals published such directions in a legal journal as required then a reporter/opposition politician could make it a political issue and raise the points that you raise.

IOne can't help wonder if the "remediation" process in itself was invented with the intention of letting SNC-Lavalin escape their legal troubles with just a slap on the wrist.
The US and UK have similar laws already in place so the law is not unreasonable or unusual. Stuffing it in a budget bill makes rotten fish smell good by comparison.

Circumstances around this whole affair create an appearance of impropriety such that a full and transparent is required to clear the air.
Agreed. The only point i wanted to make is that, given what we know so far, it is possible that the government did nothing wrong but we need an open inquiry to determine if this is the case.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 10:46:21 am
But in the McGill Hospital case, they obtained an edge over their competitors by bribing a McGill official to the tune of 10 million dollars. If SNC gets off with a slap on the wrist for using criminal tactics to win a $1.5 billion contract, clearly the message to their competitors is that they need to start bribing officials too.

waldo reminder part-deux:

ms. kimmy... you're confused (again)... that has nothin' to do with, "charges of embezzlement of funds, bribery and other wrongdoing related to contracts SNC had in Libya between 2001 and 2011". Did you actually read the G&M articles you referred to?  :-*
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 10:55:06 am
I am also not sold on the notion that letting SNC-Lavalin off with a slap on the wrist is in the public interest.

re: Ms. kimmy's declared 'slap on the wrist'..... alleged. Wait, what? Why Canada needs deferred prosecution agreements in our courtrooms (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-canada-needs-deferred-prosecution-agreements-in-our-courtrooms/)

waldo enlightenment: Govt. of Canada public consultation, no less! --- Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: The deferred prosecution agreement stream discussion guide (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/aps-dpa-eng.html)

Quote
About this public consultation

From September 25 to November 17, 2017, the Government of Canada invited Canadians to participate in a discussion and to provide their views on whether it has the right tools in place to address corporate wrongdoing. Submissions were accepted until December 8, 2017 (11:59 pm Pacific time). As part of this engagement, the government consulted with Canadians on potential enhancements to the Integrity Regime and on considerations regarding the possible adoption of a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) regime in Canada. The following discussion paper was designed to guide the public consultations regarding a possible DPA regime in Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2019, 11:14:29 am
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.  If this is True, the Liberals deserve to lose the next election.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2019, 11:27:39 am
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.  If this is True, the Liberals deserve to lose the next election.

The fact she has engaged a retired SCJ to advise her on what she can say certainly points to something interesting.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 11:34:12 am
With the resignation of the concerned minister, this just became far more plausible.

reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

Quote from: Justin Trudeau - Prime Minister of Canada - Feb 11
She {Ms. Wilson-Raybould} confirmed for me a conversation we had this fall, where I told her directly that any decisions on matters involving the director of public prosecutions were hers alone.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2019, 11:38:39 am
reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

Riiiiiight.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 11:49:45 am
Riiiiiight.

SNC-Lavalin did not secure deferred prosecution... so... why resign for not directly/indirectly influencing something that didn't occur? Riiiiiight?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2019, 11:56:32 am
SNC-Lavalin did not secure deferred prosecution... so... why resign for not directly/indirectly influencing something that didn't occur? Riiiiiight?

We don't know the circumstances behind her resignation. There is more going on here than what we know.

If she was pressured to influence something when she was Justice Minister, that is unethical as hell if not criminal, whether or not she actually did anything.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 12:05:44 pm
We don't know the circumstances behind her resignation.

Riiiiiight.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2019, 12:50:56 pm


So why would she get advice from a retired SCJ about what she can say, if nothing was said?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 01:32:10 pm
The fact she has engaged a retired SCJ to advise her on what she can say certainly points to something interesting.
So why would she get advice from a retired SCJ about what she can say, if nothing was said?

as she stated in her resignation letter: to advise her on "topics that I am legally permitted to discuss on this matter." Quite shocking for a lawyer to do so, hey wilberWithBaitedBreath!


by the by, deferred prosecution agreements are everyday, matter-of-fact legal process handling within the U.S./UK... are they a good thing... or not? If not, why not?

do you accept the Oct. 9 ruling by the director of public prosecutions: where SNC-Lavalin was found not eligible for a deferred prosecution agreement - yes or no?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2019, 01:39:41 pm
Yeah she has stated a desire to speak on the issue but she is also walking a bit of a fine line between private/public citizen. A little counseling on that part of the issue is probably a good idea.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:14:48 pm
Despite what many assume, I am not a partisan. I try to look at each issue rationally and avoid jumping on bandwagons just because everyone else is.

In this case it is important to remember that the decision to prosecute and on what charges can be a political judgement because prosecutors have to consider the public interest. I can't see why the elected government should not have a role is deciding what the public interest is. The current system which makes any such involvement by politicians a matter of public record provides a good defense against politicians using this power to reward friends and punish enemies.

With the SNC-Lavalin case it is not clear what was said and the subsequent demotion of the MOJ is concerning so I agree it stinks. However, the simple fact of the PMO asking about a case and expressing an opinion is not, in itself, wrong. Nor is it wrong for MOJ the to direct prosecutors to use the provisions in the law to to negotiate a settlement wrong provided all of the instructions are in writing and made public. People need to keep these distinctions in mind as we get more information on what exactly happened.

The whole thing is rotten. The then-in-deep-****-and-under-investigation SNC-Lavalin lobbied the government dozens of times before the gov snuck a section into the 2018 omnibus budget bill that could legally get firms such as theirs off the hook with a fine and an apology.  It's total bullshit, SNC-Lavalin has proven time and again to be a criminal organization that keeps getting huge government contracts.  SNC-Lavalin has lobbied this government over 50 times in the last 2 years while in deep criminal doo-doo.  Apparently it also illegally gave the Liberal Party $110 million.

This reeks of corruption, this company needs to gutted, split up, and sold.  If SNC-Lavalin committed these crimes in Canada, imagine the crimes they've committed in foreign countries we've never heard about and many we never will.  I get what you're saying but this goes beyond "the public interest".
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:19:13 pm
Agreed. The only point i wanted to make is that, given what we know so far, it is possible that the government did nothing wrong but we need an open inquiry to determine if this is the case.

Yes, we really don't know many of the details yet.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:34:31 pm
re: Ms. kimmy's declared 'slap on the wrist'..... alleged. Wait, what? Why Canada needs deferred prosecution agreements in our courtrooms (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-canada-needs-deferred-prosecution-agreements-in-our-courtrooms/)

That article is written by a lawyer at a Bay Street law firm that defends white color criminals and organizations.  I smell no conflict of interest.

Quote
waldo enlightenment: Govt. of Canada public consultation, no less! --- Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: The deferred prosecution agreement stream discussion guide (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/aps-dpa-eng.html)
[/quote]

Glad that 43% of those consulted were businesses, and 7% consulted were from the "justice sector".  Seems fair.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:38:01 pm
The fact she has engaged a retired SCJ to advise her on what she can say certainly points to something interesting.

I think it points to a lot of things interesting yes.  And her council not only on what she can say, but as her council generally.  Because she knows she's walking within a pile of deep doo-doo.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:39:18 pm
reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

Yeah, that's why she resigned.  ???
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:44:36 pm
We don't know the circumstances behind her resignation. There is more going on here than what we know.

If she was pressured to influence something when she was Justice Minister, that is unethical as hell if not criminal, whether or not she actually did anything.

There's a whole bunch of reasons she could have resigned.  One could be that she knows she's in for a big public legal & PR battle and doesn't have the time to properly do her duties as minister.

She's retained a former SCJ as her legal council.  ****'s hitting the fan and she knows it.  What this tells me is that this isn't just an innocent mix up here, and that the Globe's accusations have some legs, despite what Justin tells us.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 02:50:23 pm
Well, one person who likely will benefit is Jagmeet Singh.  His Liberal opponent in the upcoming Burnaby by-election may take a support hit from this.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2019, 03:06:10 pm
as she stated in her resignation letter: to advise her on "topics that I am legally permitted to discuss on this matter." Quite shocking for a lawyer to do so, hey wilberWithBaitedBreath!


by the by, deferred prosecution agreements are everyday, matter-of-fact legal process handling within the U.S./UK... are they a good thing... or not? If not, why not?

do you accept the Oct. 9 ruling by the director of public prosecutions: where SNC-Lavalin was found not eligible for a deferred prosecution agreement - yes or no?

The issue is not whether SNC was found not eligible, it is whether the PMO tried to exert an influence. Just because you tried to commit a crime and failed, doesn't make you innocent.  I repeat, why would you get advice about what you can say about an issue if nothing was said about it in the first place. Someone said something and it is important to get to the bottom of this, wherever it leads or doesn't.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 12, 2019, 03:52:10 pm
Apparently it also illegally gave the Liberal Party $110 million.

It also gave illegally to the Conservative party, although about 20% what they gave the Liberals. It is important to note that money was returned by both parties in 2016, so trying to connect it to a 2018 legislation is a bit far fetched.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 12, 2019, 04:09:51 pm
Looking worse. 

I would guess this is > Mike Duffy but < Sponsorship scandal.  In a dead heat, though, they could lose Ontario to the Conservatives. Quebec to... uh... is the BQ still around ? 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 04:40:14 pm
... the gov snuck a section into the 2018 omnibus budget bill that could legally get firms such as theirs off the hook with a fine and an apology.

"snuck" ??? Are you saying Opposition parties didn't do their due diligence? The waldo suggests you do some research on remediation agreements (ala 'deferred prosecution')... apparently... they're SOP in the U.S. & UK - go figure, hey!


Why Canada needs deferred prosecution agreements in our courtrooms (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-canada-needs-deferred-prosecution-agreements-in-our-courtrooms/)

Quote
Remediation  Agreements  are  a  welcome  development  in  Canadian  white-collar  enforcement.  The  prospect  of  avoiding criminal prosecution by entering into a Remediation Agreement should encourage companies to self-disclose wrongdoing early on, thereby furthering the detection and prevention of corporate crime while eliminating the dilemma that responsible and proactive corporations have faced to date.

Remediation Agreements may also reduce the impacts of criminal prosecutions and convictions on the company’s greater  community  of  constituents,  including  employees,  investors  and  their  communities,  by  allowing  the  company to avoid the economic consequences of a criminal conviction that would otherwise be borne by those constituents.

Given these potential material benefits to a company’s stakeholders, the failure of a company’s officers or board of  directors  to  take  the  steps  necessary  to  take  advantage  of  the  new  regime  may  expose  them  to  potential  personal liability. Officers or directors who decide to not investigate evidence of potential criminal wrongdoing, or decide to not disclose wrongdoing to take advantage of the new regime, may find themselves under increased scrutiny if the company is later criminally charged and convicted.


waldo enlightenment: Govt. of Canada public consultation, no less! --- Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: The deferred prosecution agreement stream discussion guide (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/aps-dpa-eng.html)

Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)  --- PART XXII.1 Remediation Agreements (https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 04:41:46 pm
Just because you tried to commit a crime and failed, doesn't make you innocent.

please to be advisin': what crime?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 05:00:34 pm
"snuck" ??? Are you saying Opposition parties didn't do their due diligence? The waldo suggests you do some research on remediation agreements (ala 'deferred prosecution')... apparently... they're SOP in the U.S. & UK - go figure, hey!

US politics is deeply corrupted by corporations and big money lobbying.  Bernie Sanders came out of nowhere and almost beat Hillary running mainly on that very issue.  Trump was elected partly on a promise to "drain the swamp".  Not the best example of political-corporate ethics to try to emulate.  The UK I really don't know.

And yes, snuck.  There's a reason you slip controversial legislation into an omnibus budget bill that has nothing to do with the budget instead of making it its own bill and running it through on its own merits.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2019, 05:03:50 pm
please to be advisin': what crime?

Playing obtuse again.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 05:13:21 pm
US politics is deeply corrupted by corporations and big money lobbying.  Bernie Sanders came out of nowhere and almost beat Hillary running mainly on that very issue.  Trump was elected partly on a promise to "drain the swamp".  Not the best example of political-corporate ethics to try to emulate.

wassup! Corporations are people, don't ya know? But ya, your comment has nothing to do with remediation agreements - but rant on! The waldo suggests you might first take a stab at explaining what concern you have with them... and more pointedly with the related Canadian legislation/law - yes?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 05:14:46 pm
Playing obtuse again.

playing silly-buggar again, are you? If you can't do the time (to reply), don't do the crime (claimin')
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2019, 05:50:57 pm
Wow.  I feel that this issue stinks even if there's no hard evidence but wow... you defending the govt.  I guess we're actually kind of an objective board here.   :o

TimG's a corporatist, of sorts, in my view...   free reign for corporations to bribe foreign governments, pollute, etc without government interference.  I could be wrong, so I am open to being corrected. 

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2019, 05:53:52 pm
...   free reign for corporations to bribe foreign governments, pollute, etc without government interference.

which has what to do with this thread/topic?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 12, 2019, 06:38:29 pm
TimG's a corporatist, of sorts, in my view...   free reign for corporations to bribe foreign governments, pollute, etc without government interference.  I could be wrong, so I am open to being corrected.
WTF? This has nothing to do with whether SNC is guilty of the crimes. It is about the appropriate exercise of government power. The principle at work is the accountability of the civil service to the elected representatives. i.e. we can't have a situation where civil servants make political decisions without any input or say from their political masters. When dealing with questions of justice care must be taken because of the potential for abuse hence the law that requires that any directions must be in writing and published in the Canada Gazette.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 06:44:47 pm
wassup!

At least we agree on that.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 06:54:30 pm
WTF? This has nothing to do with whether SNC is guilty of the crimes. It is about what the appropriate exercise of government power. The principle at work is the accountability of the civil service to the elected representatives. i.e. we can't have a situation where civil servants make political decisions without any input or say from their political masters. When dealing with questions of justice care must be taken because of the potential for abuse hence the law that requires that any directions must be in writing and published in the Canada Gazette.

Thankfully that law exists.  What we don't have in writing is what was spoken about during the 50+ lobbying meetings SNC-Lavalin had with the Liberal gov, including over a dozen with the PMO itself.  What we do know is that the meetings involved the criminal matters.

The lobbyist registry shows representatives of SNC-Lavalin logged more than 50 meetings with federal officials and parliamentarians on subjects that included "justice" and "law enforcement."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-committee-snc-lavalin-1.5011161

What we're all waiting for in writing are the accounts from Ms Jody about what was said between her and the PM about this company.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2019, 08:04:02 pm
Thankfully that law exists.  What we don't have in writing is what was spoken about during the 50+ lobbying meetings SNC-Lavalin had with the Liberal gov, including over a dozen with the PMO itself.  What we do know is that the meetings involved the criminal matters.

The lobbyist registry shows representatives of SNC-Lavalin logged more than 50 meetings with federal officials and parliamentarians on subjects that included "justice" and "law enforcement."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-committee-snc-lavalin-1.5011161

What we're all waiting for in writing are the accounts from Ms Jody about what was said between her and the PM about this company.

This could cause a bit of lawyer head scratching behind closed doors because, as the article points out, she can use attorney client privilege, which is her right. But she is not just a private citizen, she is also an elected representative hoding public office, and so in this case, who's rights win out, hers or the public's right to know.   
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 12, 2019, 08:40:07 pm
Well, one person who likely will benefit is Jagmeet Singh.  His Liberal opponent in the upcoming Burnaby by-election may take a support hit from this.

Jagmeet Singh will never lead the NDP anywhere.  Very few people are going to vote (or take seriously) for a leader of a major political party, wearing a turban in Canada.  You may find my opinion harsh, but it is true. 

If Singh really wanted to lead the NDP to greater heights, he would take that  Turban off.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2019, 08:43:37 pm
Jagmeet Singh will never lead the NDP anywhere.  Very few people are going to vote (or take seriously) for a man wearing a turban in Canada.  You may find my opinion harsh, but it is true. 

If Singh really wanted to lead the NDP to greater heights, he would take that silly Turban off.

What about a yarmulke?   
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 08:52:28 pm
Jagmeet Singh will never lead the NDP anywhere.  Very few people are going to vote (or take seriously) for a man wearing a turban in Canada.  You may find my opinion harsh, but it is true. 

If Singh really wanted to lead the NDP to greater heights, he would take that silly Turban off.

I believe he only started wearing the turban when he started running for the provincal NDP, he also at that time started going by "Jagmeet Singh" instead of "Jimmy Dhaliwal".  I assume all of this was to appeal to the large Sikh population in his old riding.

Either way, Jagmeet winning his seat probably means a stronger NDP, which means less votes likely for the Liberals this election, which is bad for them and good for the CPC.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 12, 2019, 08:53:40 pm
What about a yarmulke?

Political suicide.  Most Jews who run for leadership (i.e. Bernie Sanders) are intelligent enough to realize that religion and the state are separate entities.  Ditto for most religious people.  I would have no problem with Singh, if he represented a riding with a high concentration of East Indians.  However, this is Canada, where only 1.4% of the population is Sikh, just shows how far the NDP have fallen.

Anyone who down-votes me, just cannot handle the truth.  A guy that wears a turban in public will only hinder his party.  You can argue that he has the right to wear whatever he wants to- which is true as Canada enjoys freedom of religion.  However,  anyone who chooses to wear a religious head covering, is going to prevent his/her party from ever doing well in an election.

Bookmark my post.  The NDP will be lucky to win 20 seats in the next election.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 12, 2019, 08:58:58 pm
I believe he only started wearing the turban when he started running for the provincal NDP, he also at that time started going by "Jagmeet Singh" instead of "Jimmy Dhaliwal".  I assume all of this was to appeal to the large Sikh population in his old riding.

So if he changed his name, and started wearing a Turban to appeal to the large Sikh population in his riding, you would think he would be intelligent to realize 98.6% of Canadians are not Sikh, when he ran for the NDP leadership. 

Quote
Either way, Jagmeet winning his seat probably means a stronger NDP, which means less votes likely for the Liberals this election, which is bad for them and good for the CPC.

On the contrary, it means a weaker NDP. Like it or not, appearances are very important in politics. The NDP is free to elect who they want, as the leader of their party.  However, it will be catastrophic to the NDP chances in the Federal Election.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 10:31:02 pm
So if he changed his name, and started wearing a Turban to appeal to the large Sikh population in his riding, you would think he would be intelligent to realize 98.6% of Canadians are not Sikh, when he ran for the NDP leadership. 

But when he ran for the leadership his base was already Sikh, he signed up a ton of new Sikh NDP party members to vote for him, and a ton of his donations were Sikh, so it seemed to work for him at the time.  Now its caught up to him as other Canadians don't like the pandering to Sikh terrorists and whatnot.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2019, 10:54:48 pm
The fact that Trudeau was surprised by Jody's resignation and that the day before he basically said they were glad to have her in cabinet and everything between them was good shows me they're on bad terms.  Uh ohs.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 13, 2019, 02:40:21 am
waldo reminder part-deux:

Yes yes, the Libya case and the Hospital case are separate, except they're actually related:

Quote
Duhaime’s sentence seemed light compared with that of Elbaz and on Thursday, a week after the sentence was delivered, The Globe and Mail published a story quoting anonymous sources who alleged the Prime Minister’s Office pressured former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould to negotiate a remediation agreement that would have put an end to a different case in which three SNC-Lavalin companies — SNC Lavalin International Inc., SNC Lavalin Construction Inc. and Groupe SNC Lavalin Inc. — are charged with having paid millions of dollars in bribes to obtain government business in Libya.

The preliminary inquiry in that case is scheduled to resume at the Montreal courthouse on Friday.

While the cases brought against Duhaime and the three companies are separate, the investigations were intertwined. Sûreté du Québec investigators in Project Laureat, the investigation into the MUHC superhospital, received information from Swiss authorities. While investigating alleged bribes paid to the Libyan government, they recorded a phone conversation in which Ben Aïssa said he had to pay something for a hospital in Canada.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/evidence-in-project-laureat-alleged-snc-lavalin-head-was-more-than-willfully-ignorant

re: Ms. kimmy's declared 'slap on the wrist'..... alleged. Wait, what? Why Canada needs deferred prosecution agreements in our courtrooms (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-why-canada-needs-deferred-prosecution-agreements-in-our-courtrooms/)

waldo enlightenment: Govt. of Canada public consultation, no less! --- Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: The deferred prosecution agreement stream discussion guide (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/aps-dpa-eng.html)

The author of your Globe & Mail article writes:
Quote
The focus on punishing the corporation left shareholders to shoulder the fine while those responsible walked away. Deferred prosecution agreements require corporations to co-operate in pursuing individual wrongdoers, and so place the focus where it belongs.

Sounds fine in principle. And yet, referring back to the Montreal Gazette article I linked to above, we find that crown prosecutors were equipped with information that Mr Duhaime's role in the scandal went far beyond what he admitted to in his plea deal including personally authorizing payments to shell-companies set up to facilitate bribery. But they agreed to let him off with a $50 fine for loitering.   It seems like crown prosecutors didn't want to put him in jail anyway, so what's the point?

Your government consultation brochure notes:
Quote
If the terms of the DPAs are seen as being too lenient, or if DPAs are seen to be applied in what are generally considered to be inappropriate instances, then there is a risk of undermining public confidence in the criminal justice system.
...which is exactly where we're at.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 13, 2019, 05:32:31 am
WTF? This has nothing to do with whether SNC is guilty of the crimes. 

Well *I* still like you...  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 13, 2019, 06:21:41 am
Hey waldo, I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you.  :D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 06:53:46 am
Your government consultation brochure notes:

Quote
If the terms of the DPAs are seen as being too lenient, or if DPAs are seen to be applied in what are generally considered to be inappropriate instances, then there is a risk of undermining public confidence in the criminal justice system.

...which is exactly where we're at.

for exactness, why don't you detail the DPA you presume to... exact about.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 06:56:27 am
Hey waldo, I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you.  :D

since your favoured NDP party has soooo imploded, is so leaderless... the waldo is willing to allow you a relevance seeking cheap-shot
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 13, 2019, 06:58:00 am
since your favoured NDP party has soooo imploded, is so leaderless... the waldo is willing to allow you a relevance seeking cheap-shot
The NDP is not my favoured party, but regardless MY favoured party is irrelevant to your hilarious naivete!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 07:04:15 am
Yes yes, the Libya case and the Hospital case are separate

finally, you get it!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 07:06:06 am
The NDP is not my favoured party, but regardless MY favoured party is irrelevant to your hilarious naivete!

please enlighten the misinterpreting waldo: your favoured party is ?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 08:03:53 am
WTF? This has nothing to do with whether SNC is guilty of the crimes.

WTF? Squiggy & Pinas gave me 'dumb' tags for saying the same thing!  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 13, 2019, 08:14:51 am
please enlighten the misinterpreting waldo: your favoured party is ?
I don't prefer any one party.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2019, 09:48:52 am
I've moved over from MLW temporarily from watching sycophants defend Donald Trump at every step to see how people can defend this colossus scandal for JT.

Calling a FN woman former minister a liar is SOOOO against his brand.  :D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2019, 10:08:58 am
I've moved over from MLW temporarily from watching sycophants defend Donald Trump at every step to see how people can defend this colossus scandal for JT.

Calling a FN woman former minister a liar is SOOOO against his brand.  :D

Bores, you're carrying over a stink!

by the by, what's the called lie - quote please.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2019, 10:22:16 am
Bores, you're carrying over a stink!

by the by, what's the called lie - quote please.

Quote
This resignation is not consistent with conversations I had with Jody weeks ago when I asked her to serve as Canada's minister for veterans affairs and associate minister of national defence. Nor is it consistent with the conversations we've had lately,


Sure, not an outright accusation of a lie, but JT is implying that she was cool with being demoted before, and suddenly now she's upset about it. I suspect should she be allowed to speak on the matter, she'd have a different assessment of the situation.

Someone is lying.  And the only way to figure out who, is to let her speak.

BUT! BUT! BUT! The Criminal Investigation. That's an extraordinary hill to die on.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 13, 2019, 11:06:38 am
I've moved over from MLW temporarily from watching sycophants defend Donald Trump at every step to see how people can defend this colossus scandal for JT.


You must be dissapointed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 13, 2019, 11:53:01 am
I've moved over from MLW temporarily from watching sycophants defend Donald Trump at every step to see how people can defend this colossus scandal for JT.

Calling a FN woman former minister a liar is SOOOO against his brand.  :D

 You are jumping the gun on assuming this is a "colossus scandal" for JT. That could well be a leftover from the other site which has gone so alt. right with the help of CA etc. Raybould will in all likelihood speak but she needs a little guidance on what she can and can't/shouldn't say which is why she has retained the help of a former SCJ for advice.
Shall we presume you are not a Trump supporter then? Taxme etc. won't be happy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 13, 2019, 12:00:29 pm
Is there any possible way of making sure that such involvement is part of the public record?

 -k

I think so...but that's just me I guess.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 13, 2019, 12:06:57 pm
Justin's spin doctor is at it again.  Omni you aint in Kansas anymore. Get a grip. On second thought maybe that's the problem. Take down Justin's poster out of your bed-room. Its over. Baboom. Did you hear that noise? That's Jody on her way out.

You are funny. ahahhah. I love Liberals denying Justin's head is flat.

Oh, it's our l'il buddy "lawyeragain. ha ha. The noise I hear is more like baboon. Now go see if you can find Kansas on your wall map.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 13, 2019, 12:57:49 pm
I think so...but that's just me I guess.

Yes there is. Initially the DPP decided that the DPA should be granted and that decision has then to be presented to the justice minister, in this case Raybould. And if she wishes to disagree with that decision, which she has the authority to do and which she did, it has to put it in writing as to why. so far as I've seen that has all been put on hold following her resignation and her retention of legal council. There is talk now of the possibility of a trial to examine the issue where some high profile witnesses could be called up to and including Trudeau. It will take some time for all this to play out of course, but I'm sure the pressure will be on to "git 'er done" since this is getting close to election time. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 13, 2019, 01:00:46 pm
I've moved over from MLW temporarily from watching sycophants defend Donald Trump at every step to see how people can defend this colossus scandal for JT.
Why temporarily?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 13, 2019, 01:44:18 pm
Why temporarily?

Perhaps due to the fact the sight is down for maintenance. (the technical type, not the intelligence type)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 13, 2019, 01:51:25 pm
your perpetual anti-Liberal/Trudeau bent is most amusing to read... even in your rush-to-judgement best!

Speaking for myself I think Justin Trudeau illustrated his preference for political interference in criminal prosecutions when he described how his father was able to use his connections to protect his brother from a marijuana possession charge.

Recall he also told ordinary Canadians that until such time as legalization occurred to expect they'll be charged with possession.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2019, 01:55:55 pm
Why temporarily?

Because I'll go back to taunt people about Trump in no time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 13, 2019, 04:12:23 pm
Has Andrew Scheer explained why he met with SNC-Lavalin CEO Neil Bruce on May 29, 2018 to discuss “deferred prosecution agreement”?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 13, 2019, 10:20:49 pm
finally, you get it!

Different crimes, same investigation, same bad actor, same desire by the feds to let SNC-Lavalin off with the bare minimum.

Why? Is there a political motive? Are politicians worried that Quebec voters will get mad if a prominent Quebec company is punished in court?  Are crown prosecutors hoping to be working in SNC-Lavalin's legal department in a few years? 

Whatever the reason, there's a strong appearance that the


Has Andrew Scheer explained why he met with SNC-Lavalin CEO Neil Bruce on May 29, 2018 to discuss “deferred prosecution agreement”?

SNC is a big company with big lobbying capability and deep pockets.  The Liberals and Conservatives aren't any different when it comes to their close ties with KPMG, and I doubt they're any different when it comes to SNC-Lavalin either.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 13, 2019, 11:17:37 pm
I don't prefer any one party.

The only party I support is one that parties hard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRkEwgV3dL4
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 13, 2019, 11:33:40 pm
Calling a FN woman former minister a liar is SOOOO against his brand.  :D

That's a great point, JT has to be extra careful with how he speaks about her because he'll come off as a sexist colonial white supremacist etc.  Get this craziness!:  https://globalnews.ca/news/4951852/justin-trudeau-snc-lavalin-jody-wilson-raybould/

Quote
The Union of BC Indian Chiefs is demanding Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speak out against “racist and sexist” language against former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould by officials in comments to media over recent days.

That report referenced unspecified “insiders” and suggested Wilson-Raybould was shuffled from the high-profile portfolio last month because “she had become a thorn in the side of the cabinet, someone insiders say was difficult to get along with, known to berate fellow cabinet ministers openly at the table.”

“They perpetuate colonial-era, sexist stereotypes that Indigenous women cannot be powerful, forthright, and steadfast in positions of power, but rather confrontational, meddling and egotistic. These comments from your staff must be recognized for what they are — blatant sexism.”

 :D :D :D Seriously???
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 14, 2019, 12:18:35 am
If the Trudeau government had nothing to hide they would let anyone sit in on investigating committee, they wouldn't care, in fact they'd welcome it to clear the air and restore public faith in them.  Instead we have the Liberals wanting to draft the witness list in private instead of public, they don't want Gerald Butts or Jody WR to testify etc. 

Meanwhile, Jody WR immediately retains a former SCJ as her lawyer, the best in the biz folks.

These Liberals have something to hide they're just trying to construct a best way to avoid the most fallout before the election, which they can because the Liberals are in charge of investigating their own government!  This not long after virtue signalling to the Saudis about their corrupt government, and dumbass McCallum literally can't stop himself from kissing China's ass.

This government is completely lost, its fundamental ideology is total bullcrap.  Destroy these arrogant self-righteous clueless dumb fucks. Bye Harper, bye Trudeau. Thank you, next.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 14, 2019, 08:23:55 am
It's funny because JWR doesn't really have anything to gain by speaking. The report is the report. That JT pressured her go easy on the company and then she was suddenly demoted. People can draw their own conclusions. Her actions indicate that there is animosity between them. You can see JT twisting in the wind having to respond to this report. And things will only get worse when the House sits again next week.

But until they allow her to speak frankly the cloud of scandal will hover over this party on an election year. They almost have to let her speak, hoping it'll go away after she says whatever she does.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 10:23:10 am
I don't prefer any one party.

some, certainly not the waldo, are speaking of many (former) NDP faithful now aligning with the noPreferenceParty!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 10:26:53 am
Sure, not an outright accusation of a lie

when called out by the waldo to state/quote your claimed lie, your backpedaling is always welcome - good on ya!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 10:38:40 am
Has Andrew Scheer explained why he met with SNC-Lavalin CEO Neil Bruce on May 29, 2018 to discuss “deferred prosecution agreement”?

months... months... after the introduction of the bill that included the DPA 'amendment', when confronted to confirm, Scheer's office finally admitted to that May meeting Scheer held with SNC-Lavalin - that meeting held to discuss the criminal charges SNC-Lavalin was facing... to discuss the DPA agreement being sought by SNC-Lavalin.

but, but... the Libs, the Libs, the Libs!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 10:52:41 am
Are crown prosecutors hoping to be working in SNC-Lavalin's legal department in a few years? 

SNC is a big company with big lobbying capability and deep pockets.  The Liberals and Conservatives aren't any different when it comes to their close ties with KPMG, and I doubt they're any different when it comes to SNC-Lavalin either.

SNC-Lavalin, a company that employs 9000+ Canadians - a company working to avoid a potential 10-year ban on bidding federal contracts... working to avoid potential harm to its outright viability - imagine... lobbying! The waldo is shocked, shocked I tells ya!

surely, after learning of DPA's, after now realizing their widespread use in the U.S./UK... surely, you're not anti-DPA cause you have an inherent anti-corporate bent? Are there no reasons to consider the value of DPAs - none?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2019, 10:56:16 am
Could you deflect any harder?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 11:03:10 am
That JT pressured her go easy on the company and then she was suddenly demoted. People can draw their own conclusions. Her actions indicate that there is animosity between them.

did not see this coming! Boges, you and others, but certainly not the waldo, are suddenly white-knights looking to protest the (perceived) demotion. Wouldn't have figured you for a champion of past legislation/positions taken and held by Ms. Wilson-Raybould... to imply the 'file' held no other reasons to consider a cabinet shuffle.



Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 11:05:38 am
Could you deflect any harder?

no deflections intended; none given
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 14, 2019, 11:49:13 am
did not see this coming! Boges, you and others, but certainly not the waldo, are suddenly white-knights looking to protest the (perceived) demotion. Wouldn't have figured you for a champion of past legislation/positions taken and held by Ms. Wilson-Raybould... to imply the 'file' held no other reasons to consider a cabinet shuffle.

What would you suggest the demotion of a FN woman would indicated. It was 2018, I thought those kind of MPs were valuable.

How else did she do her job poorly then what's alleged in the report that sparked this scandal? She didn't play ball when JT asked her to go easy on SNC-Lavalin.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2019, 12:05:05 pm
How else did she do her job poorly then what's alleged in the report that sparked this scandal?

Well, there are certainly some 'problems' with some of the recent legislation that she's created.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 14, 2019, 12:05:57 pm
Well, there are certainly some 'problems' with some of the recent legislation that she's created.

Such as?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2019, 12:21:28 pm
Such as?

Some of them have been listed here before.  One that immediately springs to mind is the new impaired driving legislation with some very questionable sections regarding it's constitutionality.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 12:36:38 pm
Such as?

accommodating waldo:

reason(s) for resignation? As has been well discussed, Ms. Wilson-Raybould has taken significant criticism for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 14, 2019, 12:40:13 pm
She didn't play ball when JT asked her to go easy on SNC-Lavalin.

c'mon Boges - the allegations are 'someone' within the PMO. By the by, why do you, de facto, interpret DPAs as "going easy"?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 14, 2019, 02:56:24 pm
It's funny because JWR doesn't really have anything to gain by speaking.

You might be right about that.  Although if she tells her side and in doing so (along with other evidence) is completely vindicated, and was demoted for  insidious reasons, she could possibly sue.

Otherwise, she may not have anything to gain personally as you say, but she should have an informal duty as a Canadian (especially as an elected rep) to stand up for the democracy of her country and help shine light on what could be corrupt behaviour damaging her country.  If she thinks she might be personally harmed by it legally or financially then I guess I get it.

Corruption seems to infect just about every government that comes into power in Canada.  And politicians lie constantly.  It shows a sad state of humanity, when so many politicians do these crooked kinds of things for their own selfish gain & power rather than prioritize doing what's best for their country and their democracy.  Seems like a worldwide human phenomenon.  Consistently ethical people are a rare breed, and it's hard for them to get to the top when they have one hand tied behind their backs while everyone else is cutting throats.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 14, 2019, 03:32:04 pm
months... months... after the introduction of the bill that included the DPA 'amendment', when confronted to confirm, Scheer's office finally admitted to that May meeting Scheer held with SNC-Lavalin - that meeting held to discuss the criminal charges SNC-Lavalin was facing... to discuss the DPA agreement being sought by SNC-Lavalin.

but, but... the Libs, the Libs, the Libs!

All 3 major parties are trash.  What to do?  Some may say vote for the lesser evil.  I say keep firing them every election until they smarten up, and never accept mediocrity.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 14, 2019, 08:01:54 pm
Anyways, I'm keeping an open mind about all of this until all of the facts come to bear.  We can't make anyone guilty yet.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on February 15, 2019, 01:33:45 am
The CBC had more good coverage of this story tonight, although it did try to balance the scandal with how important SNC is to Quebec, neither of those things have anything to do with the other, and they had the usual panel on, though Barton looked less than happy to be talking about it.  On the CTV news however the story was buried about 5 deep, including behind the top story of people getting ripped off over their tiny home purchase. 

And its not as though there wasn't more news to be had, the chair of the justice committee said in two different interviews that JWR might have been moved because she doesn't speak french, and the PM might have wanted a french speaking AG, this is the chair of the committee supposedly 'investigating' the issue by not calling any of the actual people involved.  Sounds above board.  Anyway, 5 deep for possibly the worst scandal in, well when Chretien was in charge, maybe longer. A few quiet days and you will hardly hear about this again, instead of demanding answers they will go back to genuflecting in his presence.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 15, 2019, 05:35:37 am
Anyways, I'm keeping an open mind about all of this until all of the facts come to bear.  We can't make anyone guilty yet.

I guess so, but it's really two possibilities: JWR and the people close to her are toxic liars or Trudeau is being a slippery pol.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2019, 10:44:10 am
... for possibly the worst scandal in, well when Chretien was in charge, maybe longer.

care to succinctly state what it is you interpret as a scandal?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 15, 2019, 11:24:42 am
Anyways, I'm keeping an open mind about all of this until all of the facts come to bear.  We can't make anyone guilty yet.
Not even SNC-Lavelin?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2019, 11:44:28 am
Not even SNC-Lavelin?

Oct 2018: the federal director of prosecutions advised SNC-Lavalin that negotiating a remediation agreement would be inappropriate... that prompted SNC-Lavalin to ask the Federal Court for an order requiring negotiations.

Feb 8,2019: the federal director of public prosecutions officially asked the Federal Court to strike the plea request made by SNC-Lavalin
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 15, 2019, 12:00:46 pm
Feb 8,2019: the federal director of public prosecutions officially asked the Federal Court to strike the plea request made by SNC-Lavalin
Because of the cigar that blew-up in Trudeau's face the day before, apparently.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2019, 12:16:14 pm
Because of the cigar that blew-up in Trudeau's face the day before, apparently.

good on ya for peeling back your assigned guilt... ahead of court proceedings.

Jan. 8, 2019: in response to the Oct, 2018 SNC request to review the Federal Court's findings (that denied remediation), the director of public prosecutions laid out a stern estimation that the SNC application, “is bereft of any possibility of success”

are you also tapped into court scheduled proceedings?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 15, 2019, 12:28:30 pm
are you also tapped into court scheduled proceedings?
No, I'm just tuned in to the absence of transparency in the PMO - it has a smell.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2019, 02:30:17 pm
No, I'm just tuned in to the absence of transparency in the PMO - it has a smell.

the 'asstute' Conrad Black on the hypothetical  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/mGBfGCj.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 15, 2019, 04:17:54 pm
the 'asstute' Conrad Black on the hypothetical  ;D
The punctuated qualifier you attached to Conrad Black's obsequious toadyism on this issue suggests you must have caught at least a whiff of something too.

Yes, it's all virtually/plausibly legal and that's the real scandal that should be getting more exposure here - that companies like SNC-Lavalin are able to influence and lobby public officials and political parties the way they do in the first place.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 15, 2019, 04:28:23 pm
the 'asstute' Conrad Black on the hypothetical  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/mGBfGCj.png)

Spoken like a true wealthy corporate **** and convicted felon who spent time in US prison on corporate fraud and obstruction of justice convictions!  :D

Thank you for proving my point.  Maybe Conrad will buy more SNV-Lavalin stock on the dip!  Surely Conrad would have loved such a sweet deal planted on him to avoid prison for himself and the 30 year criminal ban from entering the US.  Where's Conrad's Order of Canada? Oh ya, they stripped it from him.  He's not even a Canadian citizen.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 15, 2019, 04:40:23 pm
I guess so, but it's really two possibilities: JWR and the people close to her are toxic liars or Trudeau is being a slippery pol.

The best i think Trudeau can come out of this is that he was genuinely worried about the loss of thousands of jobs in Quebec, since if convincted SNV-L would be barred from federal contracts for 10 years, and so the DPA went through and JWR was approached.  That still leaves the hanging matter of her demotion (and resignation).

Me thinks there was more to do than just jobs though.  Quebec is a strategic Liberal stronghold, and SNV-L has a long history of greasing palms and other dirty deeds.  Seems the Liberal Party & the PMO wanted SNV-L off the hook for whatever reason.  There's also an election coming up and they need Quebec.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 15, 2019, 04:42:04 pm
Cool, you google SNC-Lavalin, and first up pops an ad for the Conservative Party of Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 15, 2019, 04:45:30 pm
Cool, you google SNC-Lavalin, and first up pops an ad for the Conservative Party of Canada.
Maybe in your personalized search results. It turn that crap off.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 15, 2019, 04:49:31 pm
Cool, you google SNC-Lavalin, and first up pops an ad for the Conservative Party of Canada.

Scheer does try to hide from the fact of his own meetings with SNC. Maybe he has a few skeletons in his closet too.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 15, 2019, 04:50:25 pm
Maybe in your personalized search results. It turn that crap off.

Interesting, I tried it from a private web browser window. It could have been displayed based on IP address geography, but it would be strange for them to limit it to a province and not the country.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 15, 2019, 05:11:31 pm
Interesting, I tried it from a private web browser window. It could have been displayed based on IP address geography, but it would be strange for them to limit it to a province and not the country.
Google maintains a 'fingerprint' of your browser and uses that to predict what ads you would like to see. This fingerprint is not affected by incognito because it uses information like the installed fonts and other data which browsers provide to web servers in order to select the page to return. So google has you flagged as someone interested in political ads.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvas_fingerprinting
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 15, 2019, 05:21:17 pm
Cool, you google SNC-Lavalin, and first up pops an ad for the Conservative Party of Canada.

Here you go:  https://start.duckduckgo.com/
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 15, 2019, 05:22:46 pm
Google maintains a 'fingerprint' of your browser and uses that to predict what ads you would like to see. This fingerprint is not affected by incognito because it uses information like the installed fonts and other data which browsers provide to web servers in order to select the page to return. So google has you flagged as someone interested in political ads.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canvas_fingerprinting

You seem to be a little confused as to how the newspaper ends up on your doorstep and what's actually written in it.

I think it's called "shooting the messenger"
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2019, 05:43:13 pm
...for possibly the worst scandal in, well when Chretien was in charge, maybe longer

the "worst scandal" evah!!! Wait, what?

- where political interference in SNC-Lavalin prosecution is alleged
- where the alleged interference is based on anonymous sources
- where the alleged interference remains unsupported by any actual evidence

and, wait for it, wait for it... the SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues unabated
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 15, 2019, 06:02:43 pm
As with most scandals the problem is the handling, not the facts.

If Trudeau had:

1) Split the deferred prosecution agreement from omnibus bill and got opposition buy in (not hard since they all want Quebec votes too).
2) Kept JWR in her job;
2) Looked to change the rule on bidding on federal contracts for 10 years if JWR did not agree to use deferred prosecution;

Then he would not be in the mess he is in today.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 15, 2019, 08:08:58 pm
As with most scandals the problem is the handling, not the facts.

If Trudeau had:

1) Split the deferred prosecution agreement from omnibus bill and got opposition buy in (not hard since they all want Quebec votes too).
2) Kept JWR in her job;
2) Looked to change the rule on bidding on federal contracts for 10 years if JWR did not agree to use deferred prosecution;

Then he would not be in the mess he is in today.
Canada wouldn't be in this mess if Harper had been truly serious about transparency and left a government behind that was more difficult to corrupt.  I'm betting someone lobbied him into not instituting anything that might meaningfully change the status quo - outlawing in-camera lobbying would probably have gone a long way to doing the trick.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 15, 2019, 08:44:01 pm
Yikes, the clearest evidence that my previous line of argument does not hold up when the details are examined:

Quote
Finally, there is sect. 715.32 (3) of the Code, under the heading “Factors not to consider.” For offences under section 3 or 4 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, it reads — SNC-Lavalin was charged with one count of corruption under sect. 3(1)(b) of the act, along with one count of fraud — “the prosecutor must not consider,” inter alia, “the national economic interest.” (This is not only a matter of domestic law. It is a virtual word-for-word transposition of our obligations under the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials.)

So its defenders’ stated rationale for sparing SNC-Lavalin from prosecution — the dire consequences for jobs and the economy should the company be convicted, and presumably collapse — is not only economically suspect (SNC-Lavalin is not the only employer in the construction industry, nor would the work for which it has contracted disappear just because the company did) and morally dubious. It’s expressly precluded in law.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-trudeau-and-wilson-raybould-shouldnt-even-have-been-talking-about-snc-lavalin?video_autoplay=true

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2019, 01:40:07 am
Canada wouldn't be in this mess if Harper had been truly serious about transparency and left a government behind that was more difficult to corrupt.  I'm betting someone lobbied him into not instituting anything that might meaningfully change the status quo - outlawing in-camera lobbying would probably have gone a long way to doing the trick.

Yes this is Harper's fault.   ::)

Trudeau legalized marijuana, which was a massive undertaking.  He's had ample time to put through just about any legislation he's wanted that's constitutional (like DPA!).  He's responsible for his own actions.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2019, 02:09:42 am
If the Liberals wanted the DPA, then stand behind it and put it in it's own bill with everyone's name on it who voted for it, instead of being sneaky little rats and cowards and sliding it into an omnibus budget bill.  They take us for fools.

**** Trudeau, and **** the same old Liberals.  You make all my dead relatives who fought for this country in WWII so proud!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 16, 2019, 04:50:51 am
Yikes, the clearest evidence that my previous line of argument does not hold up when the details are examined

horseshyte! The independent director of public prosecutions ruled SNC-Lavalin was not eligible for a DPA. Of course, why would that preclude that a-hole Coyne from plying his "SNC-Lavalin defenders" strawman.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 16, 2019, 05:00:56 am
**** Trudeau, and **** the same old Liberals.  You make all my dead relatives who fought for this country in WWII so proud!

now that... is a fine testament to your dead fighting relatives!  ;D

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/b68AAOSwZQRYhpYU/s-l300.jpg)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 16, 2019, 12:17:59 pm
Yes this is Harper's fault.   ::)

Trudeau legalized marijuana, which was a massive undertaking.  He's had ample time to put through just about any legislation he's wanted that's constitutional (like DPA!).  He's responsible for his own actions.
The mess Canada is in I said, not Trudeau. Of course he's responsible for his actions.

I'm simply pointing out the responsibility Harper bears for leaving Canada exposed to the consequences of too much opacity in our governance - consequences just like the distracting political brouhaha now unfolding.  How much effort is being expended on dealing with this issue as opposed to investing it on bigger more important things like human rights, environmental issues and the economy?  How much unnecessary drag does this place on our progress as a society?

I suppose one could hope that the way this mess in particular focus' attention on the nexus of power and secrecy at the heart of our democracy will cause Canadians to give pause to consider it as an important reason for the mess we're all in - a reason I think, that's least as big if not more so than the misfortunes of people literally mucking around in it.  I've likened the people we elect into power as being like workers in a publicly owned nuclear plant where its up to us as employers to provide adequate shielding from the harmful effects of radiation so they can do their jobs safely, properly and effectively.  In a governments case that shielding can only come in the form of far more robust institutions of accountability.  We know power corrupts with harmful effects and we need to do more about it, a lot more.

As for Justin Trudeau legalizing marijuana, and as I pointed out earlier, it's ironic that he lauded his father's opportunity to use his influence to ensure his brother didn't have to face a criminal prosecution, and here we are today.  Of course no one but Justin Trudeau is responsible for whatever optics he was aiming for there.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 16, 2019, 12:27:12 pm
now that... is a fine testament to your dead fighting relatives!  ;D

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/b68AAOSwZQRYhpYU/s-l300.jpg)
The real insult to these is that they sacrificed 25% of their GDP fighting tyranny - apparently so their grand-kids could build an economy that's come to depend on tyrannies for who knows how much of our GDP. A lot considering the greasy loopholes we need for squirming around the values and principles our relatives died establishing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 16, 2019, 01:01:55 pm
SNC-Lavalin, a company that employs 9000+ Canadians - a company working to avoid a potential 10-year ban on bidding federal contracts... working to avoid potential harm to its outright viability - imagine... lobbying! The waldo is shocked, shocked I tells ya!

If you or I break the law, we don't get to meet 80 times with the prosecutor's bosses to try to persuade them that taking us to court is a bad idea.

surely, after learning of DPA's, after now realizing their widespread use in the U.S./UK... surely, you're not anti-DPA cause you have an inherent anti-corporate bent? Are there no reasons to consider the value of DPAs - none?

I'm not inherently against DPAs.  I think they could be used in a constructive way. However, I am concerned at the possibility that they could be used as (as some have called it) a "get out of jail free" card.    If they are used the way the brochure describes them-- to spare damage to the employees and shareholders in exchange for putting an actual guilty human being behind bars, then I am all for it.   But if they are used as a way for corrupt companies to let favored companies off the hook, then no. Creating a situation where companies commit crimes, pay some fines, and go on about their business would not be constructive.  Your federal government document discussing DPAs mentions as a potential negative the possibility of DPAs becoming "a cost of doing business".  I am really only for it if it's used to exchange the threat of corporate punishment for information that will put an actual criminal behind bars.


But this scandal is not about DPAs. It's not a scandal that SNC-Lavalin was ruled eligible for a DPA.  It wouldn't have been a scandal if SNC-Lavalin had been offered the chance to get a DPA, either. 

The scandal is that the PMO is alleged to have attempted to interfere in the independence of the attorney general's office.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 01:17:12 pm
Actually the "scandal" as always, arises due to the fact that people like to jump to the conclusion that what is alleged is actually true. As to the DPA issue, I reckon it's not a bad idea in that large corporations such as SNC who employ a lot of people, should have a chance to clean up their act if some of their people go outside the law. But it should be one time only. You **** up again you face the full force of the courts.

Having worked as a manager overseas I had to sit through a classroom session focused on the "foreign corrupt practices act" and then sign off that I had a competent understanding of that law. Some of the places I worked, getting things done, whilst following the letter of that law, was anything but easy.

PS-I'm not writing this from a prison cell.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 16, 2019, 01:59:15 pm
If you or I break the law, we don't get to meet 80 times with the prosecutor's bosses to try to persuade them that taking us to court is a bad idea.

breaking the law presumes upon conviction - you're ahead of the cart!

say what, "prosecutor's bosses" - who dat? PPSC is independent of the Department of Justice.

and, of course, neither you or I, are national/multi-national corporations... your presumed point is moot!

But this scandal is not about DPAs. It's not a scandal that SNC-Lavalin was ruled eligible for a DPA.  It wouldn't have been a scandal if SNC-Lavalin had been offered the chance to get a DPA, either. 

The scandal is that the PMO is alleged to have attempted to interfere in the independence of the attorney general's office.

uhhh, can you attach scandal to an allegation... well, I mean you can... but is that legitimate? By the by, yes - it is an important constitutional principle that the Attorney General holds independence in deciding whether to prosecute and in making prosecution policy... however, the AJ maintains discretion in making said decisions. Ms. Wilson-Raybould made her decision in Oct 2018... is said to have never brought forward any concerns she might have held in making her decision... and only when Ms. Wilson-Raybould is a part of a Jan 2019 cabinet shuffle does the G&M run with its "anonymous sources".

PPSC policy guideline:

(https://i.imgur.com/ncBiwue.png)

found within the Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook:

(https://i.imgur.com/kU7g6Jb.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 16, 2019, 02:00:51 pm
Actually the "scandal" as always, arises due to the fact that people like to jump to the conclusion that what is alleged is actually true.

(https://i.imgur.com/PDnzEOe.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 03:09:34 pm
I want to hear what JWR has to say. Until then it's all politics.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2019, 03:27:18 pm
now that... is a fine testament to your dead fighting relatives!  ;D

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/b68AAOSwZQRYhpYU/s-l300.jpg)

99.9999% sure most if not all of them would agree in "**** Trudeau".  They were military men after all.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 16, 2019, 03:38:33 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/PDnzEOe.png)

Quote
“Obviously there have been many discussions around this government: questions asked of me from two different Quebec premiers. Questions asked of me, and representations made, by the company, made by a broad range of individuals, of MPs. There were many discussions going on,” Mr. Trudeau said.

“Which is why Jody Wilson-Raybould asked me if I was directing her or going to direct her to take a particular decision, and I of course said, ‘No,’ that it was her decision to make and I expected her to make it. I had full confidence in her role.“

If things were at the point that she had to ask him whether he was giving her an order, then clearly she was being pressured.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 16, 2019, 03:50:28 pm
If things were at the point that she had to ask him whether he was giving her an order, then clearly she was being pressured.

She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 04:01:12 pm
Oh to be a fly on the wall during her discussions with Cromwell.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 16, 2019, 05:00:06 pm
She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.
Yes there are million possible narratives that can shift the blame from one side to the other. We will never have evidence that clearly shows whose narrative is closer to reality. I would rather focus on changes to make the the process such as an outright prohibition on measures unrelated to the budget being included in the budget bill.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 05:11:29 pm
Yes there are million possible narratives that can shift the blame from one side to the other. We will never have evidence that clearly shows whose narrative is closer to reality. I would rather focus on changes to make the the process such as an outright prohibition on measures unrelated to the budget being included in the budget bill.

Of course we'll have evidence when JWR speaks out.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 16, 2019, 05:51:37 pm
Of course we'll have evidence when JWR speaks out.
All we will get from her is a carefully crafted narrative designed to make her sound as good as possible. It will omit any information that might undermine her narrative. In the end we will have a he-she said situation where who people choose to believe will depend more on their personal inclinations than on any actual evidence.

That is why we need to focus on facts that are not dependent on spin.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 08:53:08 pm
All we will get from her is a carefully crafted narrative designed to make her sound as good as possible. It will omit any information that might undermine her narrative. In the end we will have a he-she said situation where who people choose to believe will depend more on their personal inclinations than on any actual evidence.

That is why we need to focus on facts that are not dependent on spin.

And in this case the facts can only emerge from the testimony.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2019, 09:07:19 pm
In what kind of democracy with any kind of transparency can corporate executives whose company is facing serious criminal charges and have been in deep criminal doo-doo in the past be allowed to meet many dozens of times with the PMO/government in private closed door meetings where we have no idea what was said.

In what kind of democracy can an entity lobby a government behind closed doors when it is facing charged by said government?  Where the same entity has illegally donated to said party?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2019, 09:12:54 pm
In what kind of democracy with any kind of transparency can corporate executives whose company is facing serious criminal charges and have been in deep criminal doo-doo in the past be allowed to meet many dozens of times with the PMO/government in private closed door meetings where we have no idea what was said.

In what kind of democracy can an entity lobby a government behind closed doors when it is facing charged by said government?  Where the same entity has illegally donated to said party?

DPA one time only.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2019, 09:14:40 pm
She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.

Obviously not right for the job for Trudeau.  "This is your decision to make"....and then a couple of months later removed from post.  On the face of it seems like it was not her decision to make without severe consequences to her, and reprisal.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:30:44 am
In what kind of democracy with any kind of transparency can corporate executives whose company is facing serious criminal charges and have been in deep criminal doo-doo in the past be allowed to meet many dozens of times with the PMO/government in private closed door meetings where we have no idea what was said.

In what kind of democracy can an entity lobby a government behind closed doors when it is facing charged by said government?  Where the same entity has illegally donated to said party?

Lobbying in Canada (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00000.html)

SNC-LAVALIN --- Lobbying & Political Activities 2018 (http://www.snclavalin.com/en/files/documents/4926_SL18_MRKT_BRO_lobbyingReport_ENG_v8.pdf)

you're welcome
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:33:48 am
If things were at the point that she had to ask him whether he was giving her an order, then clearly she was being pressured.

the words you struggled to find were... 'giving direction'. In any case, your wishful thinking is noted
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 17, 2019, 01:50:34 am
Lobbying in Canada (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00000.html)

SNC-LAVALIN --- Lobbying & Political Activities 2018 (http://www.snclavalin.com/en/files/documents/4926_SL18_MRKT_BRO_lobbyingReport_ENG_v8.pdf)

you're welcome

Sure let's look up the transcripts of the conversations SNV-L had with the PMO while lobbying over the criminal charges.  Oh wait those don't exist.

Should lobbying happen behind closed doors?  Maybe lobbyin, unless involving national security, should be done in public or in writing only and not face-to-face in private off-the-record.  But that will never happen, lobbying is big money.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:52:03 am
She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.

perhaps with her resignation, Ms. Wilson-Raybould also acknowledged she was not right for the dual role responsibilities as, 'Minister of Veteran Affairs // Associate Minister of National Defence'... some, certainly not the waldo, are suggesting that since she lost here avenue to more directly influence the pace/direction of so-called, 'indigenous reconciliation', she opted to leave cabinet... perhaps ultimately leading to her quitting politics outright.


Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:57:21 am
Sure let's look up the transcripts of the conversations SNV-L had with the PMO while lobbying over the criminal charges.  Oh wait those don't exist.

Should lobbying happen behind closed doors?  Maybe lobbyin, unless involving national security, should be done in public or in writing only and not face-to-face in private off-the-record.  But that will never happen, lobbying is big money.

;D geezaz, I answered your question on, 'what kind of democracy'!

here, read this before you have another 'over the top' moment: Full text of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00014.html)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 17, 2019, 01:59:19 am
;D geezaz, I answered your question on, 'what kind of democracy'!

here, read this before you have another 'over the top' moment: Full text of the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00014.html)

Posting links isn't an argument.  Posting quotes from said links to back up a claim is an argument.

The fact that Canada has lobbying rules doesn't mean they're adequate.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 02:04:43 am
Posting links isn't an argument.  Posting quotes from said links to back up a claim is an argument.

The fact that Canada has lobbying rules doesn't mean they're adequate.

are your full-on, over-the-top, bad-cussin' infused rants (sans support/citation)... an argument?  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 12:27:07 pm

waldo reminder (per Q&A with uOttawa Law Professor, Yan Campagnolo (https://commonlaw.uottawa.ca/en/people/campagnolo-yan)):

(https://i.imgur.com/2wQFjzb.png)


notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 17, 2019, 12:50:42 pm
the words you struggled to find were... 'giving direction'.

A completely meaningless distinction.




She may have perceived pressure, but if she was told by her boss that the decision was hers and she still perceived pressure then perhaps she was not right for the job.

Can you envision a scenario when someone needs to ask whether they're being directed to do something, if they're not being pressured?

Trudeau's exact words, according to the waldo's screen-shot:

"Obviously as a government we take very seriously our responsibility of standing up for jobs, of protecting jobs, of growing the economy, of making sure there are good jobs right across the country, as there are with SNC-Lavalin.  But as we do that we always need to make sure we're standing up for the rule of law and protecting the independence of our justice system."
 
(I don't know why he posts images rather than text, but that's beside the point. Those are Trudeau's words, according to the waldo's source.)

He wants people to know that he stands up for jobs, but he also stands up for the rule of law. But why was he having this conversation with JWR at all? He wanted her to ask Kathleen Roussel to consider protecting jobs while she ruled on whether SNC-Lavalin was eligible for a DPA?  As this article explains (https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/02/15/JWR-Was-Right/), that's not allowed:

Quote
Under a so-called “deferred prosecution agreement” (DPA), the prosecutor stays proceedings against the organization, which in turn pays a fine, offers some form of remediation, and agrees to stronger reporting requirements. If the company meets all the terms of a DPA, charges are dropped.

Much has been said about how a reasonable attorney general might opt for the DPA considering all the harm a criminal conviction of the engineering giant might do to the economies of Quebec and Canada.

But if you read the actual language creating the DPA option, it will become clear why Wilson-Raybould and her director of public prosecutions Kathleen Roussel were not only correct in their decision, but required to make it.

When firms are charged under the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, as was SNC-Lavalin…

“The prosecutor,” states the legislation, “must not consider the national economic interest, the potential effect on relations with a state other than Canada, or the identity of the organization or individual involved.”

So, in talking about trying to balance the rule of law with "standing up for jobs", Trudeau is expressing a view that they wanted JWR to do something that the law didn't permit.  Asking her to think of the jobs involved is expressly forbidden in the very law they passed to create DPAs in the first place.

Again, why would Trudeau and JWR have been having this conversation in the first place?

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 12:55:30 pm
oh my! Desperate ConMedia Postmedia got snookered... falling for a fake Gerald Butts twitter account... publishing an article quoting 2/2 fake tweets last Thursday in Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary newspapers - also ran online throughout Postmedia ranks.

Sun papers published a lame/weak-assed correction on Friday
(https://www.canadalandshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ButtsCorrection.jpg)

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 17, 2019, 01:01:19 pm
Lobbying in Canada (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00000.html)
There's nothing wrong with lobbying public officials, the problem is when its done in-camera.  It should be outlawed and we should also turn the Freedom of Information Act on its head so it requires governments get permission from a panel of judges to keep something secret, and especially before going in-camera with a lobbyist.

Lobbying a public official about issues in the public's domain should be regarded as being exactly the same as lobbying the public. There should be no expectation of privacy and secrecy unless there is some clearly identified legal reason or need to do so that is vetted by the FOI panel I mentioned.  Citing concerns about political sensitivities should yield an automatic no.

I realize that insisting on better behaviour from our betters is shockingly temeritous but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 17, 2019, 01:14:03 pm
Scheermongers are out in force - vigorously supporting the rights of the G&M source to (continued) anonymity... while at the same time demanding full cabinet transparency on everything! Everything!!!
I would think reducing a lot of the secrecy in our governance would also reduce an enormous amount of the media's secretiveness as well as reducing the public's angst and titillation that comes form never knowing enough about wtf is going on.

Quote
notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!
We have no reason whatsoever to believe that Conservatives wouldn't recoil with as much horror from the idea of outlawing in-camera lobbying as the Liberals would and for the precise same reason.  They're only making the noise they're making because its the easiest course of action for them. Take away the secrecy and they might have to do something more constructive, like explain why and how things would be better if they were in charge.

They could propose to outlaw lobbying in secret but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 17, 2019, 01:15:48 pm
Scheermongers are out in force - vigorously supporting the rights of the G&M source to (continued) anonymity... while at the same time demanding full cabinet transparency on everything! Everything!!!
...
notwithstanding, of course, the/a matter is before the courts - SNC-Lavalin prosecution continues... so what say the Scheermongers!

This whole issue is clearly partisan to you.  Scheermongers huh?  How Donald Trump of you.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:29:36 pm
A completely meaningless distinction.

no - your wishful thinking distinction is anything but meaningless!

Can you envision a scenario when someone needs to ask whether they're being directed to do something, if they're not being pressured?

you mean the Ms. kimmy wishful thinking scenario - that one? You mean the myriad of lawful discussions that apparently (collectively) included a provincial premier, cabinet members, cabinet staff, relevant departmental staff, lobbyists, etc.? Those lawful meetings?

He wants people to know that he stands up for jobs, but he also stands up for the rule of law. But why was he having this conversation with JWR at all?

So, in talking about trying to balance the rule of law with "standing up for jobs", Trudeau is expressing a view that they wanted JWR to do something that the law didn't permit.  Asking her to think of the jobs involved is expressly forbidden in the very law they passed to create DPAs in the first place.

Again, why would Trudeau and JWR have been having this conversation in the first place?

keep wishing... and definitely not related to an acknowledgment/acceptance of your wishful thinking, I suggest you read my earlier reply - to you!

breaking the law presumes upon conviction - you're ahead of the cart!

uhhh, can you attach scandal to an allegation... well, I mean you can... but is that legitimate? By the by, yes - it is an important constitutional principle that the Attorney General holds independence in deciding whether to prosecute and in making prosecution policy... however, the AJ maintains discretion in making said decisions. Ms. Wilson-Raybould made her decision in Oct 2018... is said to have never brought forward any concerns she might have held in making her decision... and only when Ms. Wilson-Raybould is a part of a Jan 2019 cabinet shuffle does the G&M run with its "anonymous sources".

PPSC policy guideline:

(https://i.imgur.com/ncBiwue.png)

found within the Federal Prosecution Service Deskbook:

(https://i.imgur.com/kU7g6Jb.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:35:14 pm
This whole issue is clearly partisan to you.

facts are facts... facts aren't partisan are they? You and your ilk are feverishly getting ahead of your own baited breath! Why... how partisan of you, hey!

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 17, 2019, 01:49:30 pm
I would think reducing a lot of the secrecy in our governance would also reduce an enormous amount of the media's secretiveness as well as reducing the public's angst and titillation that comes form never knowing enough about wtf is going on.

within reason, within practicality

We have no reason whatsoever to believe that Conservatives wouldn't recoil with as much horror from the idea of outlawing in-camera lobbying as the Liberals would and for the precise same reason.  They're only making the noise they're making because its the easiest course of action for them. Take away the secrecy and they might have to do something more constructive, like explain why and how things would be better if they were in charge.

of course - agree completely... tribal on all sides! Forever on the prowl for 'gotcha moments' to presume to exploit with the media. And the lame-assed media falls right into it... laps it up!

They could propose to outlaw lobbying in secret but I wouldn't hold my breath.

well... again within reason, within practicality. The earlier link I provided (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00000.html) does offer some level of detail - certainly not, I expect, to the level of transparency you're implying
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 17, 2019, 02:14:42 pm
I would rather focus on changes to make the the process such as an outright prohibition on measures unrelated to the budget being included in the budget bill.

Agreed, these omnibus budget bills have to stop. Regardless if the deferred prosecution agreement has merit, or not, the fact is it was not sufficiently examined by Parliament.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 17, 2019, 02:34:04 pm
Agreed, these omnibus budget bills have to stop. Regardless if the deferred prosecution agreement has merit, or not, the fact is it was not sufficiently examined by Parliament.
Along the same topic of practical things to do, this op has an interesting suggestion:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-after-the-snc-lavalin-affair-we-must-strip-the-influence-of-political/

Quote
We need to seriously scale back the influence of political staffers and legislate what the parameters of their jobs really are. Unlike in the United States where almost all government jobs are political appointments, Canada comes out of the British tradition of having a non-partisan civil service that implements the vision of the party in power.

Over time, Ottawa has taken on the American example of concentrating power in political advisers, while Britain has sensibly restrained the takeover of government by partisans. In Britain, each minister is capped at having two political staffers, also known as special advisers.
...
We could cut the number of staffers in half and Ottawa would run better than it does now. There should also be a formal, publicly acknowledged policy process so Canadians can trust that the system of democracy is working from within and decisions that might shape the future of the country for decades are not being made by a cloistered elite.
The fact that the UK has already gone down this road makes it more than simply one guy's POV.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on February 18, 2019, 10:18:51 am
well... again within reason, within practicality. The earlier link I provided (https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/eic/site/012.nsf/eng/h_00000.html) does offer some level of detail - certainly not, I expect, to the level of transparency you're implying
Not even close.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2019, 02:34:15 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5023675

Senior Trudeau PMO staffers resign. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2019, 02:43:18 pm
Gets interestinger and interestinger.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 18, 2019, 02:46:22 pm
Senior Trudeau PMO staffers resign.

Does the Parliamentary committee have to ability to make him testify?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on February 18, 2019, 05:49:50 pm
If I was betting it would still be on a liberal majority in Oct,  because liberals are 'nice', they don't lie, they don't do slimy things, and they don't work for corporations.  #Canada 

So nice in fact that probably the most powerful man in the country just resigned and left an extremely lucrative position just so he could help out his pal Justin and also defend himself, because as the PM has been demonstrating, they haven't been allowed to come up with any explanations for this allegation over the last 1-2 weeks.

Christ, what a good guy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 18, 2019, 07:01:30 pm
Butts was principal advisor to ex-ON Premier Dalton McGuinty.  McGuinty resigned very quickly just as the gas plant scandal started hitting the fan so no skin off McGuinty's nose ever came.  That was a few years after Butts left, but maybe Butts learned from him when to get out when you know you're caught in a ****-sandwich?

On another odd note i just read.  Gerald Butts has the highest net worth of any current or former Canadian politician at 23 million (US!).  His dad was a coal miner & mom a nurse.  Harper is worth 5 million to compare, Butt's whole career he's either been in the provincial government, federal government, or CEO of the non-profit World Wildlife Fund (WWF Canada).  How does one make 23 million from those jobs?  Maybe the same way you charge the taxpayers 126k for moving expenses?  Apparently he made about 500k a year at WWF!?  Morally how does one accept that kind of pay from a charity?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2019, 07:29:04 pm
Does the Parliamentary committee have to ability to make him testify?

The committee that just last week refused to include him on the witness list, despite requests from both the NDP and Conservatives that he appear?  I'm pretty sure that the Parliamentary committee has no interest in making Mr Butts testify.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 18, 2019, 07:33:07 pm
On another odd note i just read.  Gerald Butts has the highest net worth of any current or former Canadian politician at 23 million (US!).

That can't be right, unless Paul Martin is suddenly worth far less than he was - he was a hectomillionaire.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2019, 08:02:35 pm
no - your wishful thinking distinction is anything but meaningless!

"Are you directing me?" is just lawyerese for "is that an order?"  ...and the circumstances that would prompt such a question demonstrate that pressure had indeed been applied to Ms Wilson-Raybould, by the Prime Minister himself. His own words, as reported by you, prove the point.

you mean the Ms. kimmy wishful thinking scenario - that one? You mean the myriad of lawful discussions that apparently (collectively) included a provincial premier, cabinet members, cabinet staff, relevant departmental staff, lobbyists, etc.? Those lawful meetings?

More evidence of the pressure applied to Ms Wilson-Raybould.

keep wishing... and definitely not related to an acknowledgment/acceptance of your wishful thinking, I suggest you read my earlier reply - to you!

...and while the Shawcross doctrine might be a general principle governing the attorney general's role in considering the public interest in pursuing a prosecution,  but the text of the specific law under question-- the Deferred Prosecution Agreements that the Liberals themselves instituted just a month before this intense lobbying effort on behalf of SNC-Lavalin--  explicitly state that the economic clout of the defendant was not to be taken into consideration when considering whether to offer a DPA.

So, while perhaps the intense lobbying on behalf of SNC-Lavalin by the PM, the PMO, the Premier of Quebec, and others, may have been lawful... Jody Wilson-Raybould was not allowed to consider the economic impact of prosecuting SNC-Lavalin, even if she wished to.

As well, something you yourself pointed out earlier in the thread:  JWR isn't supposed to have the power to control the PPSC's decisions anyway. So even if she had wished to intervene on behalf of SNC-Lavalin, she was not, according to the rules, allowed to. The PM and others urging her to intervene on behalf of SNC-Lavalin were hoping she would do something illegal.

Kathleen Roussel was correct in determining SNC-Lavalin was not eligible for a DPA.

JWR was correct in not attempting to interfere or overrule Kathleen Rousel's decision.

Those urging JWR to interfere on behalf of SNC-Lavalin were in the wrong.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 18, 2019, 08:22:19 pm
So nice in fact that probably the most powerful man in the country just resigned and left an extremely lucrative position just so he could help out his pal Justin and also defend himself, because as the PM has been demonstrating, they haven't been allowed to come up with any explanations for this allegation over the last 1-2 weeks.

Christ, what a good guy.

good on ya, poochy! Good on ya. There are several more than capable people available to take on the 'Principal Secretary' role; Butts sees his higher calling... free of the PMO shackles... ready to concentrate on the 2019 election.  ;D

Quote from: Gerald Butts, Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister
Recently, anonymous sources have alleged that I pressured the former Attorney General, The Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould, to assist SNC-Lavalin with being considered for a deferred prosecution agreement. I categorically deny the accusation that I or anyone else in his office pressured Ms. Wilson-Raybould. We honoured the unique role of the Attorney General. At all times, I and those around me acted with integrity and a singular focus on the best interests of all Canadians.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 18, 2019, 08:24:58 pm
Those urging JWR to interfere on behalf of SNC-Lavalin were in the wrong.

Ms. kimmy wishful thinking(™)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2019, 09:05:30 pm
Ms. kimmy wishful thinking(™)

You keep saying that, yet you are unable to dispute that the very text of the DPA legislation specifies that the economic consequences were NOT to be taken into account in determining whether to negotiate a DPA.

And, per your earlier contribution to the thread, the Minister of Justice is NOT supposed to tell the PPSC what to do anyway.

Kathleen Roussel was correct in determining SNC-Lavalin was not eligible for a DPA.

JWR was correct in not attempting to interfere or overrule Kathleen Rousel's decision.

Those urging JWR to interfere on behalf of SNC-Lavalin were in the wrong.



So anyway, what are the waldo's thoughts on Gerald "Don't call me Seymour" Butts resigning?   What are you hearing through the channels on this?  Maybe he's been shuffled because he doesn't speak French? Hey, maybe he's been shuffled because they were unhappy with the assisted dying legislation. Maybe he's been shuffled because he wasn't a team player-- "it's all about Gerald."  Maybe he's been shuffled to to Veterans Affairs because it's a very important portfolio and they need to make sure it gets done right. Maybe he quit because he's no longer in position to push the pace of indigenous reconciliation?  What's the word?  What are the whispers?



 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 18, 2019, 09:55:11 pm
The committee that just last week refused to include him on the witness list, despite requests from both the NDP and Conservatives that he appear?  I'm pretty sure that the Parliamentary committee has no interest in making Mr Butts testify.

And maybe they have good reason for not wanting him to testity?  And maybe Butts knew he didn't want to testify either, but not testifying would be damaging to him and the party?

It will all come out i hope.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 18, 2019, 09:57:07 pm
That can't be right, unless Paul Martin is suddenly worth far less than he was - he was a hectomillionaire.

Might not have included former politicians.  This list has Harper on it so I assumed it did:

https://toprichests.com/top-10-richest-politicians-of-canada/
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 18, 2019, 11:39:20 pm
You keep saying that, yet you are unable to dispute that the very text of the DPA legislation specifies that the economic consequences were NOT to be taken into account in determining whether to negotiate a DPA.

And, per your earlier contribution to the thread, the Minister of Justice is NOT supposed to tell the PPSC what to do anyway.

Kathleen Roussel was correct in determining SNC-Lavalin was not eligible for a DPA.

JWR was correct in not attempting to interfere or overrule Kathleen Rousel's decision.

Those urging JWR to interfere on behalf of SNC-Lavalin were in the wrong.

I gave you the clue/insight in my earlier reply... then repeated it in another reply to you and highlighted you really need to read that waldo gem! Apparently, you either refused to read or your intuitive chops are lacking - I'll go with both!

ok, ok, notwithstanding you've got nuthin... other than a G&M article based on any anonymous source (other than your wishful thinking(™)), I'll shout it out for ya: EVEN WITHOUT A DPA, SEE ATTORNEY GENERAL DISCRETIONARY POWER... CONDITIONAL ON AN EVALUATION OF PUBLIC INTEREST, etc.

wait, what? JWR's replacement, the New Justice Minister/Attorney General David Lametti, said what?

Quote
New federal Attorney-General David Lametti says it is still possible he could issue a directive to the prosecution service to settle corruption charges against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. out of court.

“There is a specific set of rules that would allow the Attorney-General to direct a public process, in a transparent process, through the Canada Gazette,” he told CTV’s Question Period on Sunday. “That remains a possibility. But I’m not going to comment on the possibility of that now because that case is before the courts.

So anyway, what are the waldo's thoughts on Gerald "Don't call me Seymour" Butts resigning?   What are you hearing through the channels on this?  What's the word?  What are the whispers?

c'mon, read/digest my posts, hey!
There are several more than capable people available to take on the 'Principal Secretary' role; Butts sees his higher calling... free of the PMO shackles... ready to concentrate on the 2019 election.  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 19, 2019, 10:10:58 am
I gave you the clue/insight in my earlier reply... then repeated it in another reply to you and highlighted you really need to read that waldo gem! Apparently, you either refused to read or your intuitive chops are lacking - I'll go with both!

ok, ok, notwithstanding you've got nuthin... other than a G&M article based on any anonymous source (other than your wishful thinking(™)), I'll shout it out for ya: EVEN WITHOUT A DPA, SEE ATTORNEY GENERAL DISCRETIONARY POWER... CONDITIONAL ON AN EVALUATION OF PUBLIC INTEREST, etc.

So after almost 2 weeks of harping on the benefits of a DPA, you've hucked that out the window entirely and come out with this new angle. "it's a TRANSPARENT PROCESS!"

wait, what? JWR's replacement, the New Justice Minister/Attorney General David Lametti, said what?
Quote
New federal Attorney-General David Lametti says it is still possible he could issue a directive to the prosecution service to settle corruption charges against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. out of court.

“There is a specific set of rules that would allow the Attorney-General to direct a public process, in a transparent process, through the Canada Gazette,” he told CTV’s Question Period on Sunday. “That remains a possibility. But I’m not going to comment on the possibility of that now because that case is before the courts.”

This reinforces the appearance that the Liberals are determined to get SNC-Lavalin a deal. "DPA! DPA! Ok... not DPAs... but there might be some other way to do a deal! We'll keep working on it!"  It also makes one suspect Mr Lametti was put in this role because he was more willing to consider "possibilities" like this to get SNC-Lavalin off the hook, and that JWR was shuffled out of that portfolio to make room for someone more pliable.


Ms Roussel has been in the newspapers for the past week asserting the independence of the PPSC.  It will be interesting to see how she reacts when the newly minted Justice Minister tells her "uh, about that..."


Quote from: waldo
There are several more than capable people available to take on the 'Principal Secretary' role; Butts sees his higher calling... free of the PMO shackles... ready to concentrate on the 2019 election.  ;D

So it's all a clever ruse to get Seymour back in the trenches! Most clever.

An alternative theory which some-- certainly not the kimmo-- are talking about is that the Liberal caucus is furious over the way these allegations have been handled, and Mr Butts has fallen on his sword on behalf of the PM and the other senior staff.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 19, 2019, 10:47:35 am
Hi I'm Gerald Butts and I did nothing wrong so I'm resigning.  I was a minor player in this story thus far but I don't want to testify because i'm innocent & so I'm a distraction so i'm resigning.  Wha???

p.s. we did nothing wrong & my office & the PM are awesome and climate change.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 19, 2019, 11:04:11 am
So after almost 2 weeks of harping on the benefits of a DPA, you've hucked that out the window entirely and come out with this new angle. "it's a TRANSPARENT PROCESS!"

your flop sweat is soooo sweet! In response to your repeated nattering on about SNC-Lavalin not meeting criteria within the constructs of the DPA, the waldo reinforced the DPA isn't (necessarily) the 'end all/be all' - detailing how the Attorney General holds discretionary power. The waldo takes no solace in reading your desperation.

This reinforces the appearance that the Liberals are determined to get SNC-Lavalin a deal.

no - it reinforces the actuality outlined by the waldo's links/quotes from said links... it reinforces the actuality of the discretionary power held by the Attorney General. And you're simply doubling-down on your wishful thinking(™); from the past your wishful thinking(™) relies on an anonymously sourced G&M article... into the future your wishful thinking(™) presumes to cast aspersion on a possible lawful AJ avenue available while denigrating the new AJ for simply speaking to a possibility of extending upon that lawful avenue.

So it's all a clever ruse to get Seymour back in the trenches! Most clever.

say what? You don't accept Mr. Butts statement that he/PMO did not exert influence/pressure on JWR?

Quote from: Gerald Butts, Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister
Recently, anonymous sources have alleged that I pressured the former Attorney General, The Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould, to assist SNC-Lavalin with being considered for a deferred prosecution agreement. I categorically deny the accusation that I or anyone else in his office pressured Ms. Wilson-Raybould. We honoured the unique role of the Attorney General. At all times, I and those around me acted with integrity and a singular focus on the best interests of all Canadians.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 19, 2019, 11:07:48 am
Hi I'm Gerald Butts and I did nothing wrong so I'm resigning.  I was a minor player in this story thus far but I don't want to testify because i'm innocent & so I'm a distraction so i'm resigning.  Wha???

p.s. we did nothing wrong & my office & the PM are awesome and climate change.


the waldo is shocked you won't accept the statement from Mr. Butts... shocked I tells ya!

Quote from: Gerald Butts, Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister
Recently, anonymous sources have alleged that I pressured the former Attorney General, The Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould, to assist SNC-Lavalin with being considered for a deferred prosecution agreement. I categorically deny the accusation that I or anyone else in his office pressured Ms. Wilson-Raybould. We honoured the unique role of the Attorney General. At all times, I and those around me acted with integrity and a singular focus on the best interests of all Canadians.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 19, 2019, 11:42:17 am
Butts leaves because he doesn't want to be a distraction. But leaving becomes an even bigger distraction, now opposition parties smell blood in the water.

I actually thought the story had calmed down a bit, now it's back to the top of the news.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 12:06:00 pm
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Justice Committee hearing on the issue. Unfortunately it seems the Liberals have used their majority on the committee to water down the list of the people who will give testimony.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 19, 2019, 12:11:35 pm
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Justice Committee hearing on the issue. Unfortunately it seems the Liberals have used their majority on the committee to water down the list of the people who will give testimony.

Nothing will come out of it.  You already gave the answer as to why.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 19, 2019, 12:16:00 pm
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Justice Committee hearing on the issue. Unfortunately it seems the Liberals have used their majority on the committee to water down the list of the people who will give testimony.

Which is evidence that they have something to hide. And will ensure this story won't go away anytime soon.

If Butts can be strident in his denial on Twitter, he can do the same under oath in front of a committee.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 12:21:53 pm
Which is evidence that they have something to hide. And will ensure this story won't go away anytime soon.

If Butts can be strident in his denial on Twitter, he can do the same under oath in front of a committee.

I guess he could however he is not on the list.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 19, 2019, 12:38:34 pm
I guess he could however he is not on the list.

. . . because the Liberals have something to hide.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 19, 2019, 12:41:45 pm
the waldo is shocked you won't accept the statement from Mr. Butts... shocked I tells ya!

Well, given the high ethical track-record of the modern federal and provincial Liberals, i suppose they've earned the benefit of the doubt.  As former policy director and then principal secretary to Honest Dalton McGuinty, what's not to trust?!

I mean just look at Gerald's [squid edit]White House counterpart's boss's mother, Mary Trump[/squid edit].  Surely nothing that would come out of this sweet old lady could ever tell a lie!

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.newsapi.com.au%2Fimage%2Fv1%2F857a67a6d5515271734fac4b571be664&f=1)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 19, 2019, 12:49:44 pm
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Justice Committee hearing on the issue. Unfortunately it seems the Liberals have used their majority on the committee to water down the list of the people who will give testimony.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what comes from a Liberal-led investigation of Liberal wrongdoing.  Surely if OJ Simpson had been head prosecutor instead of Marcia Clark, OJ Simpson would have been convicted of murder.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 19, 2019, 12:50:37 pm
I know it's just an obscure internet political forum, but it's pretty scuzzy to bring in the guy's mom and post a big picture of her.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 19, 2019, 01:09:53 pm
I know it's just an obscure internet political forum, but it's pretty scuzzy to bring in the guy's mom and post a big picture of her.

ya, the guy's a dumbass for doing/saying that! (http://www.inmemoriam.ca/view-announcement-557621-rita-butts-rn.html)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 19, 2019, 01:15:03 pm
ya, the guy's a dumbass for doing/saying that! (http://www.inmemoriam.ca/view-announcement-557621-rita-butts-rn.html)

Ts and Ps to the Butts family.  :-\
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 01:17:07 pm
I know it's just an obscure internet political forum, but it's pretty scuzzy to bring in the guy's mom and post a big picture of her.

Someone here actually thought it was "funny"
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 19, 2019, 05:47:35 pm
I know it's just an obscure internet political forum, but it's pretty scuzzy to bring in the guy's mom and post a big picture of her.

Scuzzy?  i called her a sweet old lady!  I'll bet $1000 this is a fact.  She was a nurse from Nova Scotia for heaven's sake.  This is why I can't perform on college campuses anymore.

Quote
...and post a big picture of her.

Ok...

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKd7l0kTNPFKUCOp5bYaktyPucr2usjyIX5V1l5PYnpAuY5Rlc)

Bah fine, i'll fix the post for you, because i didn't know she had recently died.  May she rest in peace, in all honestly.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 19, 2019, 07:40:41 pm
I know it's just an obscure internet political forum, but it's pretty scuzzy to bring in the guy's mom and post a big picture of her.


This quote from Oscar Wilde sums you and your pals' reaction:

"Men are such cowards. They outrage every law in the world and are afraid of the world's tongue."

Spare me your attempts at  moral superiority.




Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 19, 2019, 08:23:38 pm
What exactly is meaningful about poating a picture of the guy's mom?   I dont get what's funny about it.   It's a **** thing to do, in my opinion.  Why can't you just post on the topic?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 19, 2019, 08:34:21 pm
Looks like the Liberals have finally got damage control going and JWR and Trudeau may have cut a deal.

1) JWR will testify in front of the commons committee and will spin this as an interpersonal conflict;
2) JWR demanded and got Butt's resignation in return for cooperation;
3) JWR will rejoin cabinet - possibly back at justice.

The story will be dead by election time because none of the people in the know will be talking.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 08:40:02 pm
Looks like the Liberals have finally got damage control going and JWR and Trudeau may have cut a deal.

1) JWR will testify in front of the commons committee and will spin this as an interpersonal conflict;
2) JWR demanded and got Butt's resignation in return for cooperation;
3) JWR will rejoin cabinet - possibly back at justice.

The story will be dead by election time because none of the people in the know will not be talking.

Well we'd like to see any kind of support you have for the first 3 comments, and btw, your last one was a double negative where you contradicted yourself.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 19, 2019, 08:55:16 pm
Looks like the Liberals have finally got damage control going and JWR and Trudeau may have cut a deal.

1) JWR will testify in front of the commons committee and will spin this as an interpersonal conflict;
2) JWR demanded and got Butt's resignation in return for cooperation;
3) JWR will rejoin cabinet - possibly back at justice.

The story will be dead by election time because none of the people in the know will not be talking.

If she manages to spin that for herself she's a badass.  Everybody in that scenario wins of course, except our democracy, because we still won't know what really went down.

JWR not talking has been her best move.  She holds all the cards, she can literally make up any story to sink or save the Trudeau government, so let's start the bidding shall we?  But I would assume she doesn't want the party to get creamed this election by her taking Trudeau down because she'd likely want to keep her job, and a delicious cabinet post.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 09:18:59 pm
If she manages to spin that for herself she's a badass.  Everybody in that scenario wins of course, except our democracy, because we still won't know what really went down.

JWR not talking has been her best move.  She holds all the cards, she can literally make up any story to sink or save the Trudeau government, so let's start the bidding shall we?  But I would assume she doesn't want the party to get creamed this election by her taking Trudeau down because she'd likely want to keep her job, and a delicious cabinet post.

Um no, she can't just make up any story. If she was in fact pressured it will have been by people from the PMO. If you make up a phony story about those type of people, you will receive a serious backlash. I'm she is well aware of that.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 19, 2019, 09:20:29 pm
If she manages to spin that for herself she's a badass.  Everybody in that scenario wins of course, except our democracy, because we still won't know what really went down.
Butt's sudden resignation must have been because Liberal insiders demanded it because there was no public information that can explain it. His strenuous denials of wrong doing only make sense if he is actually innocent and is just a fall guy or because he knows JWR will not publicly contradict him. The latter would only occur if there was a quid pro quo and Butt's resignation was part of it. The exact nature of the quid pro quo is speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 19, 2019, 09:23:12 pm
Scuzzy?  i called her a sweet old lady!  I'll bet $1000 this is a fact.  She was a nurse from Nova Scotia for heaven's sake.  This is why I can't perform on college campuses anymore.

Ok...

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKd7l0kTNPFKUCOp5bYaktyPucr2usjyIX5V1l5PYnpAuY5Rlc)

Bah fine, i'll fix the post for you, because i didn't know she had recently died.  May she rest in peace, in all honestly.

You have nothing to be ashamed of.  I found the original post quite funny.  People here really need to lighten up.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 09:31:01 pm
You have nothing to be ashamed of.  I found the original post quite funny.  People here really need to lighten up.

A picture of the mother of the person involved in this political discussion has absolutely no relevance, and the ignorance of the poster not to have discovered the lady was already deceased simply adds to the ridiculousness.

People here need to smarten up. Otherwise there is always mlw.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 19, 2019, 11:07:29 pm
A picture of the mother of the person involved in this political discussion has absolutely no relevance

Poon never said anything bad about her.

Quote
People here need to smarten up. Otherwise there is always mlw.

What is mlw?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2019, 11:16:08 pm
Poon never said anything bad about her.



What is mlw?

maple leaf web
red necks, white socks, and blue ribbon beer.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 20, 2019, 12:01:30 am
It was a douche-bag thing to post...    that word is now censored on this site...

Quote
This is why I can't perform on college campuses anymore.
 

I haven’t been on a college campus for 25 years and I think it was stupid and not funny...   so maybe it’s you, and not the college campus.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 20, 2019, 09:28:53 am
It'd consider this line of discussion to be thread drift. Not that my opinion matters.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 20, 2019, 11:04:22 am
It'd consider this line of discussion to be thread drift. Not that my opinion matters.

Thread drift isn't a thing here.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 11:17:50 am
Listen Saint Omni of Liberal Righteousness, some of us find your outrage b.s. Lighten up. You have no sense of humour about Liberals. We get it.
You and Squid are suddenly outraged. You aren't outraged at a terrorist being paid $10 million when your beloved Liberals have no money for vets, that you spin away but this harmless tongue in cheek picture and you pee your pants? Give it a rest. Lighten up. You boys can't stand it when the butt of humour is in your direction, period. Don't pose as suddenly being the moral police. You and Squid have had your share of dumb ass moments on this forum as have we all. Now run along and pose on a mountain or whatever you Saints do just do not show up in my bathroom. I have enough looking in the mirror at my wrinkles to see a vision of you.

It seems rather obvious who IS peeing their pants here. The little boys room is to your right, far right.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 20, 2019, 11:54:22 am
UH OH!!! Outlier Poll Alert!!!!  Outlier Poll Alert!!!!

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-takes-personal-hit-amid-snc-lavalin-controversy-leger-poll-for-cp-1.4304910

Quote
OTTAWA -- A recent survey conducted by polling firm Leger for The Canadian Press shows that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is taking a personal hit in the SNC-Lavalin controversy.

In a question about which party leader would make the best prime minister, Justin Trudeau got the backing of 26 per cent of respondents, down seven points from when Leger conducted a similar poll in November 2018.

Leger's executive vice-president Christian Bourque says the firm's latest poll is the first since the 2015 election that found the Conservatives ahead of the Liberals in Canadians' party preferences, though the Tory lead falls within the margin of error.

Leger found 36-per-cent support for the Tories in a question about federal voting intentions, against 34-per-cent support for the Liberals and 12 per cent for the NDP.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 12:06:17 pm
JWR will speak to the justice committee today so we shall see what comes from that. It's an in camera meeting but there's always leaks. Clarification is needed on this issue otherwise speculation could hurt the Libs just as much as if there was any wrongdoing by the PMO.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 20, 2019, 12:25:53 pm
UH OH!!! Outlier Poll Alert!!!!  Outlier Poll Alert!!!!

pfffft! Here, try another...

(https://i.imgur.com/VFpYzdV.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 20, 2019, 12:47:53 pm
A picture of the mother of the person involved in this political discussion has absolutely no relevance, and the ignorance of the poster not to have discovered the lady was already deceased simply adds to the ridiculousness.

It was a douche-bag thing to post...

I am the reigning, defending, undisputed 8-time World Heavyweight Champion of internet comedy.  Sometimes my great success means i'm an ignorant douche-bag.  This is the cross I bear and the sword I fall on.  All the best to you, gentlemen.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 20, 2019, 01:03:46 pm
UH OH!!! Outlier Poll Alert!!!!  Outlier Poll Alert!!!!

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-takes-personal-hit-amid-snc-lavalin-controversy-leger-poll-for-cp-1.4304910
Trudeau's personal leadership took a hit. Voting intention is in a dead heat (within the margin of error), which I always hold benefits the Tories. People tend to be less willing to admit that they're voting for Conservatives from what I can tell from past polling trends.

In any case, this is cross-sectional data, so it's a snapshot at a particular moment from a particular sample. These things change and without longitudinal data that asks the same individuals over an extended period of time, it's tough to say people have changed their voting preference.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 01:54:30 pm
Trudeau's personal leadership took a hit. Voting intention is in a dead heat (within the margin of error), which I always hold benefits the Tories. People tend to be less willing to admit that they're voting for Conservatives from what I can tell from past polling trends.

In any case, this is cross-sectional data, so it's a snapshot at a particular moment from a particular sample. These things change and without longitudinal data that asks the same individuals over an extended period of time, it's tough to say people have changed their voting preference.

I suspect if testimony reveals there was no undue pressure put on JWR to protect SNC then the issue will have been a tempest in a teapot and forgotten. It will be replaced perhaps by Scheer's connection with the "yellow vests and Faith Goldy" type hate groups.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 20, 2019, 03:53:38 pm
UH OH!!! Outlier Poll Alert!!!!  Outlier Poll Alert!!!!

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-takes-personal-hit-amid-snc-lavalin-controversy-leger-poll-for-cp-1.4304910

Interesting:

Quote
In a question about which party leader would make the best prime minister, Justin Trudeau got the backing of 26 per cent of respondents, down seven points from when Leger conducted a similar poll in November 2018.

Trudeau already has a really low approval rating, lower than Donald Trump's, which is pretty unbelievable.  This scandal can only hurt that.

It doesnt say how the other leaders faired in the poll.  Singh isn't popular, so I assume Scheer got most of the rest?  Scheer doesn't seem very likeable either.  If the CPC want to win they might want to hide Scheer in a cave for the next 8 months and consider surgically altering his freaky Joker grin.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.zergnet.com%2F510586_300.jpg&f=1)

I know, i know.  How dare I bring Scheer's creepy smile into this discussion!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 20, 2019, 03:56:27 pm
This one looked even more like Andrew!  AHAHAHAHAHAaaaaaa!!!

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F236x%2Fd7%2F58%2Fd5%2Fd758d57516ab92bad816982b4a324531--jack-nicholson-the-joker.jpg&f=1)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 20, 2019, 04:05:50 pm
I am the reigning, defending, undisputed 8-time World Heavyweight Champion of internet comedy.  Sometimes my great success means i'm an ignorant douche-bag.  This is the cross I bear and the sword I fall on.  All the best to you, gentlemen.

I, for one, admire your comedy sir. I work in the oil and gas industry, and we tar and feather the politically correct on site.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 20, 2019, 04:09:44 pm
Interesting:

Trudeau already has a really low approval rating, lower than Donald Trump's, which is pretty unbelievable.  This scandal can only hurt that.

It doesnt say how the other leaders faired in the poll.  Singh isn't popular, so I assume Scheer got most of the rest?  Scheer doesn't seem very likeable either.  If the CPC want to win they might want to hide Scheer in a cave for the next 8 months and consider surgically altering his freaky Joker grin.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.zergnet.com%2F510586_300.jpg&f=1)

I know, i know.  How dare I bring Scheer's creepy smile into this discussion!

Most people are finally starting to see how much of a flake Trudeau is. He is not taken seriously by World leaders, and is a disgrace to Canada. He makes us look weak. IMHO, Peter Mackay would have made an awesome PM, but that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 04:11:53 pm
Interesting:

Trudeau already has a really low approval rating, lower than Donald Trump's, which is pretty unbelievable.  This scandal can only hurt that.

It doesnt say how the other leaders faired in the poll.  Singh isn't popular, so I assume Scheer got most of the rest?  Scheer doesn't seem very likeable either.  If the CPC want to win they might want to hide Scheer in a cave for the next 8 months and consider surgically altering his freaky Joker grin.

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.zergnet.com%2F510586_300.jpg&f=1)

I know, i know.  How dare I bring Scheer's creepy smile into this discussion!

Even with the "scandal" Trudeau is ahead of Scheer in the polls. We'll see how that plays out after testimony is given by JWR etal. And you do hopefully understand that Canada is a multi-party system as opposed to the US two party system, so comparing polling numbers between the two means very little.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 20, 2019, 04:12:58 pm
Interesting: Trudeau

Here, try another...

(https://i.imgur.com/VFpYzdV.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 04:18:44 pm
Most people are finally starting to see how much of a flake Trudeau is. He is not taken seriously by World leaders, and is a disgrace to Canada. He makes us look weak. IMHO, Peter Mackay would have made an awesome PM, but that ship has sailed.

Speaking of world leaders who have been ignored and disgraced, where are you on the Donald?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 20, 2019, 04:19:46 pm
I work in the oil and gas industry, and we tar and feather the politically correct on site.

speaking of politically correct
(https://rlv.zcache.ca/rig_pig_classic_round_sticker-r4d255c1cb9f841aeb7856dfce8f28e65_v9waf_8byvr_307.jpg)
wait... I kid, I kid!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 20, 2019, 04:21:31 pm
Speaking of world leaders who have been ignored and disgraced, where are you on the Donald?

He is a dotard.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 04:25:14 pm
He is a dotard.

I would agree with that description.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 20, 2019, 04:33:32 pm
Even with the "scandal" Trudeau is ahead of Scheer in the polls.
Sheer is just not a likable leader. One would think the Conservatives could have done better.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2019, 04:37:22 pm
speaking of politically correct
(https://rlv.zcache.ca/rig_pig_classic_round_sticker-r4d255c1cb9f841aeb7856dfce8f28e65_v9waf_8byvr_307.jpg)
wait... I kid, I kid!

Now go easy on those "rig pigs". I made my living for a while moving them to and from shore. I guess that makes me somewhat responsible for global warming. I wasn't aware at the time, and that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 20, 2019, 07:16:36 pm
Sheer is just not a likable leader. One would think the Conservatives could have done better.

Every day I meet people in business who come across as more capable, more intelligent, more empathetic and better communicators than these three.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 21, 2019, 12:31:20 am
JWR... just can't quit JT!  :o

(https://i.imgur.com/b5KCY83.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 12:44:00 am
Looks like the Liberals have finally got damage control going and JWR and Trudeau may have cut a deal.

1) JWR will testify in front of the commons committee and will spin this as an interpersonal conflict;
2) JWR demanded and got Butt's resignation in return for cooperation;
3) JWR will rejoin cabinet - possibly back at justice.

It does look more and more like some kind of deal was struck, as you say, and that all is well between her & Trudeau/Liberals.  On Wed the 20th, JWR was at the Liberal caucus meeting assuring her fellow MP's behind closed doors that she's fully on board with the Liberal Party & will "speak her truth" in front of the justice committee, and then Trudeau came out apologizing to JWR publicly for things he admits he should earlier:

Quote
Wilson-Raybould quit Trudeau's cabinet last week — just a week after Trudeau demoted her to the Veterans Affairs portfolio and just days after the Globe and Mail report.

Wilson-Raybould's surprise abstention from the vote on the NDP motion came just hours after she reassured the Liberal caucus that she was fully on the team.

Multiple caucus sources told CBC News that when Wilson-Raybould spoke in a caucus meeting today, she said she fully supported the Liberal agenda — especially on Indigenous issues. She did not discuss the specific allegation that she was pressured to intervene in SNC-Lavalin's case, but repeated her line that she was seeking legal advice on what she's permitted to say.

Several MPs told CBC News that her presence at the caucus meeting and the team-focused message she delivered there was taken by Liberals as a good sign

and from same article:

Quote
Earlier today, Trudeau apologized to Wilson-Raybould today for what he called "absolutely unacceptable" comments and cartoons about the former justice minister linked to the swelling scandal.

"I wasn't quick enough to condemn, in unequivocal terms, the comments and commentary and cartoons about her last week," Trudeau told reporters before facing another bruising round of questions about SNC-Lavalin in the Commons. "They were absolutely unacceptable and I should have done it sooner."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin-trudeau-1.5025885
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 12:50:55 am
Even with the "scandal" Trudeau is ahead of Scheer in the polls. We'll see how that plays out after testimony is given by JWR etal.

Trudeau ahead of Scheer in what polls?  "Best leader" polls?  So it seems.  I forgot about the old "unsure" poll option.

Quote
And you do hopefully understand that Canada is a multi-party system as opposed to the US two party system, so comparing polling numbers between the two means very little.

Well yes, we don't elect our PM like the US elects their POTUS, so the leader approval numbers are just curiosities really.  Despite Trudeau's low approval the Liberal Party itself seems to have higher approval in comparison so their dislike of him doesn't fully translate into Liberal disapproval it seems.  I would think it hurts their polling #'s though, but hard to say how much.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 12:59:15 am
Now go easy on those "rig pigs". I made my living for a while moving them to and from shore. I guess that makes me somewhat responsible for global warming. I wasn't aware at the time, and that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

With those things, the thing is if you didn't do the job somebody else would, so you shouldn't really feel guilty for it, I would say.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 01:07:21 am
Every day I meet people in business who come across as more capable, more intelligent, more empathetic and better communicators than these three.

Same here.  My theory is that people who are very intelligent, capable, and ethical managers/leaders are smart enough to realize getting into politics isn't a very smart idea. 

Especially the way the media is in modern times, everything you say or do is under a microscope dissected on 24/hr news media, it puts enormous pressure on your family, it's not that financially lucrative for the pain & trouble, and internal party politics is a bunch of BS ass-kissing and gamesmanship anyways.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 01:12:13 am
JWR... just can't quit JT!  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29PSPafL54o

I can't quit you babe
Woman I think I'm gonna put you down for a little while
I can't quit you babe
I... think I'm gonna put you down for a while
I said you messed up my happy home
Made me mistreat my only child [Gerald Butts?]

You built my hopes so high
Baby then you let me down so low
You built my hopes so high then ya let me down... so low
Don'tcha realize sweet baby?
Woman I don't know... which way to go

Woman I can't quit you babe
I think I'm gonna put you down for a while
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2019, 01:13:56 am
With those things, the thing is if you didn't do the job somebody else would, so you shouldn't really feel guilty for it, I would say.
People who think like this are akin to those pacifists who insist violence in never necessary. In both cases, the hypocrite in question lives a comfortable life thanks entirely to the people that reject their moralizing and are willing to do the jobs that are needed to keep society running whether it is pumping oil or working as a police officer.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 21, 2019, 01:27:35 am
People who think like this are akin to those pacifists who insist violence in never necessary. In both cases, the hypocrite in question lives a comfortable life thanks entirely to the people that reject their moralizing and are willing to do the jobs that are needed to keep society running whether it is pumping oil or working as a police officer.

Violence is only ever necessary when it's to protect ones self or perhaps others from violence. If we were all pacifists, whom you seem for some weird reason to discredit, we wouldn't have to be violent. Get it?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 21, 2019, 02:37:52 am
Violence is only ever necessary when it's to protect ones self or perhaps others from violence. If we were all pacifists, whom you seem for some weird reason to discredit, we wouldn't have to be violent. Get it?
You missed the qualifier 'never' in my statement. If you want to use a different qualifier then you are obviously not one of the pacifists I was talking about.

As for the other claim: all human societies will have people who do not follow the moral code demanded by the majority because moral codes always end up putting some people at a disadvantage. Enforcing these moral codes will require some level of violence at times. It is an inescapable aspect of being human.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 21, 2019, 03:19:44 am

Globe & Mail:
Trudeau spoke to Wilson-Raybould after prosecutors refused SNC-Lavalin deal (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-trudeau-reviewed-snc-lavalin-options-with-wilson-raybould-after/)

Quote
Federal prosecutors had already rejected a settlement with SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. nearly two weeks before Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke with then-attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould about the matter last fall.

Court documents obtained by The Globe and Mail show that Kathleen Roussel, director of public prosecutions, had informed SNC-Lavalin on Sept. 4 that she intended to proceed with a prosecution on bribery and fraud charges against the Montreal-based engineering giant stemming from its business dealings in Libya.

Mr. Trudeau has repeatedly said he told Ms. Wilson-Raybould in a Sept. 17 conversation that the decision on the SNC-Lavalin prosecution was hers alone to make, but that concerns were raised about the economic impact of a conviction.

So clearly it wasn't a case of the PM and PMO offering JWR some helpful advice to pass along to Ms Roussel in making a decision.  Ms Roussel had already made her decision, and the PM/PMO were pressuring encouraging JWR to pressure encourage Ms Roussel to reconsider.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 21, 2019, 07:00:44 am
Trudeau already has a really low approval rating, lower than Donald Trump's, which is pretty unbelievable.
Source? Voting intention and preferred candidate are not "approval" ratings. Approval ratings typically ask the respondents how well they feel the leadership is doing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 21, 2019, 11:12:57 am
Globe & Mail:Trudeau spoke to Wilson-Raybould after prosecutors refused SNC-Lavalin deal

So clearly it wasn't a case of the PM and PMO offering JWR some helpful advice to pass along to Ms Roussel in making a decision.  Ms Roussel had already made her decision, and the PM/PMO were pressuring encouraging JWR to pressure encourage Ms Roussel to reconsider

in your Ms. kimmy wishful-thinking(™) opinion - yes? The waldo doesn't mind educating you throughout this thread... have some more: on a generalized case-by-case basis, the AJ role is not an investigatory role - that is why it is standard operating procedure for the AJ to seek out Ministerial (as relevant) information/advice/guidance; equally, that works both ways as Ministers have a responsibility to bring (as relevant) information/advice/guidance to the AJ.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 21, 2019, 12:57:46 pm

bastardo!!! How dare he attempt to refute the anonymous sourced basis of Ms. kimmy's wishful-thinking(™)

Quote
Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick, testifying at the justice committee today, was referring to a Feb. 7 Globe and Mail report that touched off a political scandal and triggered the resignation of cabinet minister Jody Wilson-Raybould and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's principal secretary, Gerry Butts.

"I'm here to say to you that the Globe and Mail article contains errors, unfounded speculation and, in some cases, is simply defamatory," he said.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 21, 2019, 01:04:08 pm
Scheermen! C'mon Pierre Poilievre... you're being out-weaseled by the young-pup Michael Cooper!!! Step-up your game Poilievre...

(https://i.imgur.com/Ic62v03.jpg)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 21, 2019, 03:36:49 pm
C'mon Pierre Poilievre... you're being out-weaseled by the young-pup Michael Cooper!!!

I listened to part of the Justice Committee meeting today, and that was my exact thought.

Poor little Lisa Raitt got her knickers in a knot when her partisan rhetoric was exposed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 06:23:56 pm
Source? Voting intention and preferred candidate are not "approval" ratings. Approval ratings typically ask the respondents how well they feel the leadership is doing.

Yes I know the difference.  He's actually one of the least popular PM's ever.

https://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/leadermeter/

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/12/19/trudeau-approval-rating-poll_a_23622710/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Canada_by_approval_rating

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 06:29:10 pm
Violence is only ever necessary when it's to protect ones self or perhaps others from violence. If we were all pacifists, whom you seem for some weird reason to discredit, we wouldn't have to be violent. Get it?

If we were all pacifists you're right we wouldn't have to get violent.  But we don't live in such a world.  All it takes is one violent person.  And we need a military trained to kill because all it takes is one country or non-state actor group to get violent. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 21, 2019, 06:29:28 pm
He's actually one of the least popular PM's ever.

Behind: Mulroney, Harper, Clark, and daddy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 21, 2019, 06:32:52 pm
Violence is only ever necessary when it's to protect ones self or perhaps others from violence. If we were all pacifists, whom you seem for some weird reason to discredit, we wouldn't have to be violent. Get it?

If we were all pacifists you're right we wouldn't have to get violent.  But we don't live in such a world.  All it takes is one violent person.  And we need a military trained to kill because all it takes is one country or non-state actor group to get violent.

That's why Canada's "proud" legacy as peacekeepers is nonsense.  They just let the US do all their dirty work for them and sat back and got the glory of being a "peaceful nation", which is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 21, 2019, 08:36:57 pm
If we were all pacifists you're right we wouldn't have to get violent.  But we don't live in such a world.  All it takes is one violent person.  And we need a military trained to kill because all it takes is one country or non-state actor group to get violent.

That's why Canada's "proud" legacy as peacekeepers is nonsense.  They just let the US do all their dirty work for them and sat back and got the glory of being a "peaceful nation", which is ridiculous.

I am well aware of the fact we live in a violent world, either from reading history, or living/working in the midst of it. Canada fought long and hard and actually punched above its weight in some previous wars. The US does seem to like to get involved in "dirty work" though. Heard of Iraq have you?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 22, 2019, 06:02:49 am
Yes I know the difference.  He's actually one of the least popular PM's ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Canada_by_approval_rating
 

Yes but also second highest ?

That list makes me hate Democracy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 22, 2019, 10:34:06 am
I listened to part of the Justice Committee meeting today, and that was my exact thought.

Poor little Lisa Raitt got her knickers in a knot when her partisan rhetoric was exposed.

But you didn't hear the supposed head of the Civil Service who is not supposed to comment on political issues or legal issues doing just that both.
You didn't hear this sphincter muscle of a Privy Council head make the most idiotic and brain stunned comments of the year with his fear of assassination warning. Even someone like you would know if you felt
there was an imminent threat the last thing you do is broadcast it loud to give some crackpot the idea to do it...or wait no you didn't hear that.
You didn't hear the shrill, arrogant, subjective spittle come out of his mouth.

You do understand Lisa Raitt is in the opposition party and is elected and has a function to engage in precisely what she was doing question....on behalf of all Canadians...that escaped you but  the Privy Council head with his head shoved up his Liberal BUTT that you missed.

Clearly this pricy council head needs to be fired. He is unable to perform in a neutral manner and showed a complete and vested interest in defending Trudeau and Butt which was a direct conflict of interest not to mention this anal gland can not determine what is and what is not undue influence and is strictly limited to saying what he heard, now what the intent of what he heard was or its effect.

This idiot not only passed off a subjective opinion of intent as to the words off as a legal opinion but pronounced it as if it was his role to do so. That you did not notice.

Only a Judge determines whether there is malicious or illegal intent behind words. That depends on many factors and certainly not the Pricy Council Head's inflated sense of the universe.

Civil servants are to remain neutral and avoid any appearance of partisan comment. This individual now has made it impossible for anyone but Trudeau to have confidence in his office. If I was another Liberal cabinet Minister or MP I am just as worried about his clear bias for Trudeau in any future issue as I would be in any other party.

This idiot crossed the line into the political world of subjective commentary to defend Trudeau which was as inappropriate and partisan as it gets and yet your eagle eye only notices when the Opposition entrusted to question his testimony through cross examination does just that.

Buh bye I hear another liberal selective ear drum. It sounds like  this.....spzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 22, 2019, 10:47:59 am
Yes but also second highest ?

That list makes me hate Democracy.

JT hasn’t finished one term yet, most of the others took two or more to hit bottom. Early days.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 22, 2019, 11:11:41 am
But you didn't hear the supposed head of the Civil Service who is not supposed to comment on political issues or legal issues doing just that both. You didn't hear this sphincter muscle of a Privy Council head make the most idiotic and brain stunned comments of the year with his fear of assassination warning. Even someone like you would know if you felt there was an imminent threat the last thing you do is broadcast it loud to give some crackpot the idea to do it...or wait no you didn't hear that. You didn't hear the shrill, arrogant, subjective spittle come out of his mouth.

Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick is hardly the partisan your agenda speaks to! He's worked within the governments of 3 Prime Ministers; during his testimony he openly praised Harper and related legislation Harper Conservatives put through. The comments you're whining about were a part of his opening statement and fully apropos in regards the state of political discourse today. Quite matter-of-fact, Sheer Conservatives are purposely fueling conditions to push alt-right zeolots forward - look no further than the jackazz Scheer meeting the trucker convoy. Despicable signage and verbiage coming forward during that event is exactly what Wernick was speaking to...

...that escaped you but  the Privy Council head with his head shoved up his Liberal BUTT that you missed. Clearly this pricy council head needs to be fired. He is unable to perform in a neutral manner and showed a complete and vested interest in defending Trudeau and Butt which was a direct conflict of interest not to mention this anal gland can not determine what is and what is not undue influence and is strictly limited to saying what he heard, now what the intent of what he heard was or its effect.

Wernick responded to the questions he was asked - you simply don't like his answers. Perhaps you can explain how to answer those very direct and pointed questions... in a "neutral manner"... one where the Opposition members are satisfied and your feefees aren't hurt!  ;D

This idiot not only passed off a subjective opinion of intent as to the words off as a legal opinion but pronounced it as if it was his role to do so. That you did not notice.

citation request
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2019, 11:56:34 am
JWR is set to testify before the justice committee some time next week. I' ll wait until we hear from her directly before I jump to any conclusion. I do wonder why, if she had been inappropriately pressured, she didn't report that to the ethics commissioner. I also wonder if the prospect of the loss of ~9000 jobs in PQ if SNC went under was presented to her and she had doubts as to whether that was appropriate or not, so simply stepped aside. Hopefully she will be able to speak openly next week.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2019, 01:28:45 pm
But you didn't hear the supposed head of the Civil Service who is not supposed to comment on political issues or legal issues doing just that both.
You didn't hear this sphincter muscle of a Privy Council head make the most idiotic and brain stunned comments of the year with his fear of assassination warning. Even someone like you would know if you felt
there was an imminent threat the last thing you do is broadcast it loud to give some crackpot the idea to do it...or wait no you didn't hear that.
You didn't hear the shrill, arrogant, subjective spittle come out of his mouth.

I think that just about sums up your post.

Yes, I heard the entire Justice Committee session with Wernick, and I also heard the usual talking heads try and take him down. They failed miserably, because they are the ones with the over the top rhetoric. Yes, he did comment on things during his opening remarks (which is why the f**k people are given the chance to make opening remarks) on things like the state of political discourse and the comment a Parliamentarian made. He didn't name the scumbag, but let me elaborate.

Senator David Tkachuk, another of Stephen Harper's idiotic appointees said on the lawn of Parliament to a group of truckers that they should "roll over liberals". He has since even refused to apologize for that remark. That shitbag terrorist should not be collecting a huge government wage, or even be allowed to roam the streets. It is over the top rhetoric like that that destroys the fabric of the nation. Has Sheer removed his sorry ass from caucus yet, or is he an enabler?

The other item the talking head idiots harp on is his remarks about the Globe article. What Wernick said was the article contains errors, unfounded speculation and, in some cases, is simply defamatory. That is nowhere like calling the press the enemy of the people, he was commenting specifically on an article.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2019, 02:01:30 pm
Scheer has his own PR troubles since he spoke at that same rally with the likes of Faith Goldy and the "United WE Roll/Yellow Vester" types.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2019, 04:36:40 pm
You do understand Lisa Raitt is in the opposition party and is elected and has a function to engage in precisely what she was doing question....on behalf of all Canadians...that escaped you but  the Privy Council head with his head shoved up his Liberal BUTT that you missed.

Lisa Raitt was implying that Wernick was doing something nefarious by meeting with SNC-Lavelin. She said it was "high unusual, highly unusual, that he would be meeting with an individual company". Yes she repeated highly unusual twice to emphasize her over the top rhetoric.

He replied that he meets with lots of individuals, companies, labor unions, NGOs, etc. as a matter of course, nothing unusual.

I can't find a transcript, but you can view the meeting on ParlVu TV, Raitt starts about 12:24pm. She is an over the top partisan extremist, and was attacking a civil servant.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2019, 08:20:21 pm
Yes but also second highest ?

That list makes me hate Democracy.

Democracy booted them out when they got arrogant and started doing bad/dumb ****.  That list makes me love democracy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 23, 2019, 12:39:46 am


Senator David Tkachuk, another of Stephen Harper's idiotic appointees said on the lawn of Parliament to a group of truckers that they should "roll over liberals". He has since even refused to apologize for that remark. That shitbag terrorist should not be collecting a huge government wage, or even be allowed to roam the streets. It is over the top rhetoric like that that destroys the fabric of the nation. Has Sheer removed his sorry ass from caucus yet, or is he an enabler?

Speaking of over-the-top...


Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 23, 2019, 01:29:54 am
Trudeau already has a really low approval rating

waldo full disclosure:

(https://i.imgur.com/xmrpUcg.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 23, 2019, 01:39:01 am
waldo full disclosure:

Right, for a sitting PM not yet done their first term that's a low rating.  The others aren't the PM, and have more votes in the "undecided" column because people don't know as much about these guys yet, especially Singh.  More people approve of Trudeau but more people disapprove of him also, as per your image.

And if you ask me, all 3 of these guys are complete dolts and aren't fit to lead this country.  I hope to pete for a minority gov this time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 23, 2019, 01:49:05 am
apparently... the waldo full disclosure doesn't sit well with the guy who keeps selectively harping about approval ratings - go figure!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 23, 2019, 01:25:09 pm
if you accept (Veterans Affairs) is a demotion, you might also need to factor criticisms against Ms. Wilson-Raybould for her handling of assisted-dying & impaired-driving legislation and her publicly expressed frustrations over the pace/approach of (her) government's handling of so-called 'reconciliation'...

some, certainly not the waldo, r-sayin' JWR went off the res (https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/raybould-wernick-framework-1.5029144)... isn't that culturally insensitive?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 23, 2019, 10:51:31 pm
bastardo!!! How dare he attempt to refute the anonymous sourced basis of Ms. kimmy's wishful-thinking(™)
Quote
Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick, testifying at the justice committee today, was referring to a Feb. 7 Globe and Mail report that touched off a political scandal and triggered the resignation of cabinet minister Jody Wilson-Raybould and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's principal secretary, Gerry Butts.

"I'm here to say to you that the Globe and Mail article contains errors, unfounded speculation and, in some cases, is simply defamatory," he said.

"I din't do nuffin'!" declares man suspected of doing something.  Sounds like an Onion headline.

We all heard Wernick's denials of wrongdoing, and his theatrical grandstanding about partisanship and assassinations and so on.  But when you delve into what Mr Wernick had to say about the specifics of his conversations with JWR, it's a lot less emphatic:

Quote
In blunt testimony before the justice committee Thursday, Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick said he called the then-justice minister and attorney general on Dec. 19, 2018 to discuss various issues — including the option of a remediation agreement that would serve as an alternative to prosecution for the Quebec-based global engineering company, which is facing bribery and fraud charges related to contracts in Libya.

During that call, Wernick said, he spoke of the implications of prosecuting the company for employees, suppliers and communities. He said he told Wilson-Raybould that the prime minister and "a lot of her colleagues" were anxious about what they were hearing and reading in business press — articles warning that the company could close down or move if criminal proceedings went ahead.

"I am quite sure the minister felt pressured to get it right, and part of my conversation with her on Dec. 19 was conveying context that there were a lot of people worried about what would happen ... the consequences not for her, the consequences for the workers, and the communities and the suppliers," he told MPs probing the scandal now engulfing the Liberal government.

Wernick insisted he did not cross any line in his exchanges with Wilson-Raybould.

"I can tell you with complete assurance that my view of those conversations is that they were within the boundaries of what's lawful and appropriate. I was informing the minister of context. She may have another view of the conversation, but that's something the ethics commissioner could sort out," he said.

In the end, Wernick said, the matter may boil down to an interpretation of what constitutes 'pressure'.

"I think the matter may come down to the ethics commissioner's view on a conversation between two people, between what was sent and what was received. And I think the ethics commissioner is the appropriate person to decide what was undue and what was inappropriate," he said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lametti-justice-committee-snc-lavalin-1.5027617

He's not denying that JWR was being pressured to overrule the PPSC on the matter. He's just denying that the pressure was unlawful or unethical.

Quote
Wernick revealed this week that he raised the issue of SNC-Lavalin during a Dec. 19 conversation with Wilson-Raybould. He conveyed to her that the prime minister and others were “quite anxious” about the possible economic consequences if SNC-Lavalin were found guilty. That is understandable. Lavalin is a major employer in Quebec. But the law bars prosecutors from considering the national economic interest when they consider offering deferred prosecution to companies charged with bribing foreign officials. Wernick employed a too-big-to fail rhetoric, expressing concern that the board might decide to “close, sell” the company which “would have consequences for 9,000 Canadians, plus the suppliers, plus the pensioners, plus all the communities in which the company’s active.” And the company’s “share price had tanked,” he said.

In all of those conversations “there was no inappropriate pressure put on the minister at any time,” Wernick said.  Even more risible was a comment he’d make later in a scrum with reporters when asked why he’d continue to contact the attorney general three months after a decision had been made: “Because the decision had not already been made,” he said.

We’re talking Grand-Master-Jedi-level gaslighting here. Clearly the “No” registered on the SNC-Lavalin DPA on Sept. 4, Sept. 17, Oct. 7, Dec. 19 did not register as an actual or final decision.
As for pressure? She must be imagining things! After all, the decision was Wilson-Raybould’s alone to make. And the insurance kicker:  If Wilson-Raybould did feel she was being pressured to override the decision to prosecute, it was up to her to protest to the very office applying pressure, or resign. If she didn’t, well, it’s nobody’s fault but hers.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/how-many-times-did-jody-wilson-raybould-need-to-say-no/



Trudeau and Wernick and Butts and who knows who else all assure us that they told her it was her decision alone to make, but the actual decision had been made on September 4, and they continued to badger about it for 3 months afterwards.  They may have assured her that only she could say yes, but clearly they also weren't going to take "no" for an answer.  And after 3 months of getting tired with her not giving her the answer they wanted to hear, they found themselves a more pliable Attorney General in January.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 24, 2019, 01:15:21 am
Trudeau and Wernick and Butts and who knows who else all assure us that they told her it was her decision alone to make, but the actual decision had been made on September 4, and they continued to badger about it for 3 months afterwards.

badger?  ;D Let the waldo continue your education! Said initial PPSC 'decision' isn't binding until the actual prosecution court case begins - notwithstanding SNC-Lavalin's own litigation before the court (yet to be heard) asking to overturn said initial PPSC 'decision'.

as I said, the AJ role is not investigatory; rather, it relies upon an information/advisory conduit flow - a 2-way flow! As I also said, the AJ role has a discretionary aspect to it; one that allows the AJ discretion in choosing to move forward with any respective prosecutions - even one involving a DPA!

accepting to your naivete, riddle me this: at any time, what was stopping JWR from bringing the (perceived) "pressure" concerns forward either internally or through formal (Ethics Commissioner) channels? Why did JWR accept the new cabinet posting to Veteran Affairs/Department of Defence - why didn't she refuse the assignment and resign then... why wait a full month before resigning from the new cabinet positions?

c'mon Ms. kimmy! Isn't your (perceived) 'pressure'... isn't your declared 'badgering', subjective Ms. kimmy wishful-thinking(™)  determinations - yes? 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 24, 2019, 12:39:11 pm
Yes, I think 3 months of asking her to overrule the PPSC director is "badgering".  If you don't like "badgering", there are other descriptions being used. "Brow-beating" is one that has been applied.

Trudeau and Wernick (and no doubt Butts and others) were asking her to consider potential job losses and economic fallout if SNC-Lavalin were prosecuted.  "we take very seriously our responsibility of standing up for jobs," Trudeau said. "the consequences for the workers, and the communities and the suppliers," Wernick said.

But the Liberals' own legislation makes clear that those factors are explicitly not to be taken into consideration.  That they kept reminding her about this in urging her to overrule Ms Roussel makes clear that this wasn't really about "respecting the rule of law" at all.

While the language of the new DPA law was written to avoid the possibility of powerful corporations using their clout to avoid prosecution, that's exactly what SNC-Lavalin is doing here.

And again, the Public Prosecution Service is supposed to be independent of political interference... so why were the PM and his senior aides badgering brow-beating the Attorney General to overrule the PPSC director's ruling anyway?  Why is David Lametti now floating thought-balloons on how to get around the PPSC on this matter?

Trudeau telling JWR that the decision was hers alone was clearly based on the expectation that she'd do what they wanted her to.  It's Lionel Hutz explaining "the truth" to Marge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Nc88_ZEfxg

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 24, 2019, 02:28:34 pm
they continued to badger about it for 3 months afterwards

From what I understand from the testimony was an off the cuff remark in a meeting dedicated to something else, a meeting that Wernick didn't attend so we have zero information so far, and a phone call. That is not badgering, it is a part of normal everyday communications for the government. Who said that Minister of Justice and Attorney General is a stress free job? These are real issues, facing real Canadians, and important to be discussed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 24, 2019, 02:42:30 pm
c'mon Ms. kimmy... your presumptive "pressureing/badgering" timeline is one of 3 months pre-cabinet-shuffle; itself then followed by 1 month post-cabinet-shuffle!!! And JWR says didly squat throughout all that period? Really? Your narrative runs severely weak! Notwithstanding your cartoonish post & your linked cartoon can't deflect from your failure to answer my direct questions; here, try again:

accepting to your naivete, riddle me this: at any time, what was stopping JWR from bringing the (perceived) "pressure" concerns forward either internally or through formal (Ethics Commissioner) channels? Why did JWR accept the new cabinet posting to Veteran Affairs/Department of Defence - why didn't she refuse the assignment and resign then... why wait a full month before resigning from the new cabinet positions?

c'mon Ms. kimmy! Isn't your (perceived) 'pressure'... isn't your declared 'badgering', subjective Ms. kimmy wishful-thinking(™)  determinations - yes?

the waldo has clearly laid this all out for you previously! Again, as much as you want to totally hang your wishful thinking(™) nonsense on the DPA makeup, there is a distinction to be made between prosecuting, "in the public interest" versus not prosecuting based upon possible/interpreted harm to the national economy ("national economic interest"). I've already outlined for you where that distinction can be made... and the position that can make it.

your failing narrative has no merit! By the by, do you have a personal subjective determination of how to interpret and define "pressuring & badgering"?  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 25, 2019, 05:24:24 pm
Clerk of the Privy Council Michael Wernick is hardly the partisan your agenda speaks to! He's worked within the governments of 3 Prime Ministers; during his testimony he openly praised Harper and related legislation Harper Conservatives put through.

Wernick responded to the questions he was asked - you simply don't like his answers. Perhaps you can explain how to answer those very direct and pointed questions... in a "neutral manner"... one where the Opposition members are satisfied and your feefees aren't hurt!  ;D

citation request

I am trying to understand your response. What you said I question. Please provide his comments where he "praised Harper and related legislation"  I strongly doubt he made such partisan comments and  if he indeed praised Harper and legislation he passed which I would love to see cited, that would also make him a partisan individual engaging in partisan inappropriate comments further evidencing what I stated.

No civil servant, let alone the head of the civil service is allowed or should make comments expressing his or her personal sentiments or subjective opinions as to legislation. Its not their job. They are administrators only. There job is not to determine what is appropriate only administer the laws given to them. It is elected officials who decide what is politically appropriate and Judges who decide what legal meanings are to be given to a piece of legislative wording not the friggin Privy head.

Let me be as clear as can be, The Privy Council Office (PCO; French: Bureau du Conseil privé) is the secretariat of the federal cabinet of Canada, which is a committee of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and is to provide non-partisan advice and support to the Canadian ministry, as well as leadership, coordination, and support to the departments and agencies of government. It never was given the role of making legal judgements or expressing subjective partisan opinions.

The Privy Council Office's role is NOT and should not be the same as the Prime Minister's Office. The PM's office is a personal and partisan office and hus advisors like Butt will provide strategy advice to the PM on how to best get him relected. Its a narrow perspective concerned with getting him relected and examining which policies or functions the government carries out would make him unpopular and less likely to be reelected. This office puts the best interests of the Prime Minister being relected before the best interests of the country.

However because that is well known and understood it has always been a basic premises of Canadian politics that because of that narrow perspective, the Prime Minister also receive advice from other sources mor e neutral. To that end, the PCO is supposed to function as an alternative advisor. Both offices situated physically next to one another serve as  boith  policy-oriented and politically-sensitive advisory unitsto the Prime Minister but the PCO's first priority is good government not what gets the PM rerelected unlike the PMO office which is the other way around.

The Minister of Justice of Canada is elected. Clearly they do what they do to get reelected. They are partisan in favour of their political party. However unlike other cabinet ministries this Ministry has multiple roles and some of those roles do not allow it when serving those roles to be partisan in nature.

To be specific the Attorney General of Canada is also the Minister of Justice of Canada. This Minister wears two hats, one political and partisan the other a constitutional role defined by the laws of Canada.

Those laws say the Attorney General is obliged  (they have no discretion)to assure that the legal systems it overseas are followed as per the procedures set out in those laws. The AG can't exercise-if there is legal grounds to believe a Canadian criminal law is violated, they MUST prosecute.

This means the Attorney General  MUST it has no choice...advise the Cabinet that it must prosecute criminal cases that might have political fall out so as to ensure that the Cabinet’s actions are legal and constitutionally valid and that the rule of law is maintained. This type of legal advice, provided by the Attorney General, differs significantly from the Attorney’s General policy advice; while the latter could be disregarded, the former can not.

Every lawyer in this country knows if the AG allows the PMO office or anyone including the PCO office to pressure it not to pursue a prosecution or seek a lesser sentence for POLITICAL reasons, that this violates the law and the basic rules of law. There is no grey area. Crowns decide based on the merits of evidence, NOT the outcome of what it might lead to which could alienate votes in Quebec.

Here go to: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/principles2-principes2.html, the Liberals haven't deleted it yet...it states:

"As will become evident, I view the unique role of the Attorney General as a fundamental pillar of the rule of law in Canada. In its simplest articulation, the rule of law ensures that no one, including the elected Government of the day, is above the law. As a guardian of the rule of law, the Attorney General is tasked with upholding the public interest."

No the Privy Council head does NOT and never had the role of or right to comment on or try approach the AG to discuss what sentence terms she should pursue against Lavalin which is what Trudeau and his Butt Boy did.

You can deny until doomsday but they wanted her to guarantee them no one would go to jail and the fine would not be so large as to negatively impact on the company and they wanted to make sure the verdict would not prevent this company from continuing to get contracts from the federal government once convicted.

Of course that is partisan political influence peddling and it is morally wrong and it could very well have crossed the line and become illegal influence peddling.

What makes it repulsive is Justin Trudeau got elected criticizing Harper for passing omnibus bills hiding legislation that was unpopular in larger cumbersome bills so  no one would read the unpopular laws placed in the middle of the others.

Justin did the same thing passing a law to allow himself to influence peddle and give him and his PMO the right to approach the AG and tell her to PLEA BARGAIN a specific plea the Crown would not decide on the merits of evidence of the case but based on what would enable SNC to avoid any negative impact to prevent it from losing jobs and in that way placate Quebec voters who might otherwise be put out of work.

In simple terms, the legal plea being asked for was determined on what was most favourable for getting Quebec votes not based on the merits of the evidence of the case and it would have been wrong for any government of the day to do what Trudeau and Butts did.

This is the same Trudeau who went on vacation with the Aga Kahn who paid for his vacation at the same time he lobbied the government for funds.

Trudeau to date has refused to admit this was a breach  of ethics or as he promised discuss it with the Ethics Commissioner and his lie, his absolute and utter lie was played out in Parliament as when he was asked why he did not go to the Ethics office refused to answer.

This is someone who plea bargained behind closed doors a 10 million hand out to a terrorist and then gave that terrorist's lawyer a judge's position.

This is someone who has openly stated to the world he is rewarding people breaking Canadian immigration law by giving them more rights than legitimate immigrants lining up.

This is a PM who openly breaks laws. This is someone who lectures China that his government does not involve itself in legal matters while at the same time engages in this Lavalin fiasco for China and the world to see. Zero credibility.

Then you write me and ask what the Privy Council head said that was partisan? Bull ****. You heard what he said. His entire testimony from the moment he opened his mouth to when he left was partisan and ultra vires the jurisdiction of his powers. No the head of the Privy Council does not claim there will be assassinations because he feels some people overly question the government. What bullshit. What arrogant bullshit. Now he decides what political opinions incite violence. I call bullshit. Its not his role.

Next he should have made NO comment as to whether the PMO's office went too far. Its not his role. He can only discuss policy implications. Being head of the civil service he can not question any Crown Attorney let alone the head Crown Attorney as to what constitutes sufficient evidence to pursue charges and its only after a sentence is entered that discussions as to the appropriate sentence should come up.

If there is a plea bargain arrangement its between the Crown and SNC not the PMO, not the PCO, not the AG, not the  PM.

All lawyers know exactly what happened to Jody. She could not guarantee a specific plea bargain that they tried to pressure on her and they got pissed at her and punished her with a demotion and she in turn is pissed at them.

So the question now is, who is left standing. Her or Justin. The fact she is still an MP and Butt boy ran and Trudeau did an about face about her being able to testify should tell you he caved in. He tried to bully her, failed, and now he's trying to salvage what's left of his pathetic tenure.

His decision to go to Halifax to a funeral where he did not belong to giggle and cry and make sure to hijack the service to show pictures of him smiling and crying is par for the course.This is his m.o. Attend public events, hijack their focus to show him.

Does he think his shedding a tear works anymore? Boohoooo.

Now you want to deny what Kimmy said? Really? You want to pretend the PCO has the right to do  what it did. No you cite. Don't tell me to cite you cite. Cite the law where it says the head civil service is to call the AG and tell her to make specific plea bargains. Please.


The Attorney General is also responsible for all criminal prosecutions in the country. However, some prosecutions are conducted by the provincial Attorney General authorities under the Canadian Criminal Code. The Attorney General may provide the police with some legal advice but should never cause charges to be laid – the ultimate decision is in the hands of the police authorities. The Attorney General has to fulfil his or her criminal prosecution duties independently of any political or government pressure. These duties require fairness of the presentation of cases and does not necessarily result in a conviction. This is a basic criminal law precept which is not well-understood at times or perceived as just. The office of the Attorney General operates under the 1867 Constitution Act which postulates that provincial legislatures have authority over the administration of justice. The provincial Attorney General may be designated as such or as a minister of justice for the particular province. In some provinces, the post may combine both functions.
 law. To be clear, The Attorney General of Canada is the highest-ranking prosecuting officer in Canada.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 25, 2019, 05:29:51 pm
No the Privy Council head does NOT and never had the role of or right to comment on or try approach the AG to discuss what sentence terms she should pursue against Lavalin which is what Trudeau and his Butt Boy did.

I stopped reading your swill there. You are making unsubstantiated allegations, and acting like a sucky little child.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 25, 2019, 07:08:52 pm
Let me be as clear as can be, The Privy Council Office (PCO; French: Bureau du Conseil privé) is the secretariat of the federal cabinet of Canada, which is a committee of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and is to provide non-partisan advice and support to the Canadian ministry, as well as leadership, coordination, and support to the departments and agencies of government. It never was given the role of making legal judgements or expressing subjective partisan opinions.

instead of writing such a lengthy tirade, perhaps you could actually state what you interpret as legal judgements or partisan opinions given by Michael Wernick, Clerk of the Privy Council

(https://i.imgur.com/ynNqqFR.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 25, 2019, 07:13:23 pm
Justice Committee testimony - Michael Wernick, Clerk of the Privy Council

transcript of opening testimony - given before the beginning of Q/A sessions:

(https://i.imgur.com/9aeHxHX.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 26, 2019, 01:21:18 pm
hey Rue... how's that Scheer Conservative driven, CONmedia fueled, "scandale" de SNC-Lavalin playing in Quebec, hey?

(https://i.imgur.com/3hN7ikU.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 26, 2019, 01:51:40 pm
hey Rue... how's that Scheer Conservative driven, CONmedia fueled, "scandale" de SNC-Lavalin playing in Quebec, hey?
In Outremont? Come on, man. That riding had a Conservative MP once in its history. Otherwise it has been Tory red the entire time, except when Mulcair was holding the seat.

Your response here is literally like a Conservative winning in deep Alberta and someone saying, "See! Trudeau is done!"
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 26, 2019, 04:07:33 pm
It appears that JWR has been given a wavier to speak freely (http://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=37424&lang=en) tomorrow.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 26, 2019, 07:15:55 pm
In Outremont? Come on, man. That riding had a Conservative MP once in its history. Otherwise it has been Tory red the entire time, except when Mulcair was holding the seat.

Your response here is literally like a Conservative winning in deep Alberta and someone saying, "See! Trudeau is done!"

no - the 10-year 'Orange Crush' Mulcair hold on the riding was just... crushed! (my Con references were, as stated, particular to the "scandale" de SNC-Lavalin) - there would never be an expectation of a Con win (or even 2nd place) in that riding... but wagAnalysis seems to suggest Quebec voters are not/will not take kindly to the Scheermongering!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 26, 2019, 11:19:16 pm
You're bragging because the Liberals went one-for-three in byelections?  Weird flex, but okay.

The one they did win was (literally) in SNC-Lavalin's back yard-- so no shocker that voters there aren't disappointed that the Liberals went the extra mile trying to get SNC-Lavalin off the hook.

And that's really what this is all about: winning Quebec votes.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on February 26, 2019, 11:37:42 pm
Yesterday we learned that in addition to pleading with JWR to stop the prosecution, the Liberals were also overhauling the Public Service Procurement Canada "Integrity Regime" so companies convicted of bribery wouldn't face the 10 year ban on receiving government contracts.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 12:51:19 am
You're bragging because the Liberals went one-for-three in byelections?  Weird flex, but okay.

bragging? Yours is a most bizarre interpretation - your weird flex, but okay. Wait... other than you, who said anything about by-elections outside Quebec? You know, that province where SNC-Lavalin has been based for over a 100 years... that employs ~4000 employees in Quebec alone... that has 20% of its shares owned by the Quebec pension plan... that has had 2 Quebec Premiers and many other assorted Quebec politicians actively lobbying on its behalf... that has the provincial government and industry experts concerned about SNC_Lavalin becoming a takeover target... etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 01:01:13 am
Yesterday we learned that in addition to pleading with JWR to stop the prosecution...

;D you've gone from "pressuring" to "badgering" to now... "pleading" - oh my! Again, other than an anonymous sourced G&M article and your subjective determination on what constitutes pressuring badgering pleading to the level that your sensitive fee-fees just can't take it any more... ya gots nuthin, ya gots diddly! Perhaps (tomorrow) we'll see if your subjectivity aligns with... measures up to... that of St. Jody!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 27, 2019, 03:08:01 pm
WELL!!! Who's watching TV?

JWR stated that JT pressured her to offer SNC a DPA. Stressing it would hurt the Quebec Liberals in the election.

Saving jobs in Quebec > Prosecuting a Corrupt company.

Anxiously awaiting Liberal Fanboys claiming she's a liar.

Interesting this happens on the same day Micheal Cohen testifies in the US regarding the behaviour of one Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 27, 2019, 03:11:41 pm
hey Rue... how's that Scheer Conservative driven, CONmedia fueled, "scandale" de SNC-Lavalin playing in Quebec, hey?

(https://i.imgur.com/3hN7ikU.png)

Would you expect the CPC to ever do well in Montreal?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2019, 03:19:25 pm
WELL!!! Who's watching TV?

JWR stated that JT pressured her to offer SNC a DPA. Stressing it would hurt the Quebec Liberals in the election.

Saving jobs in Quebec > Prosecuting a Corrupt company.

Anxiously awaiting Liberal Fanboys claiming she's a liar.

Interesting this happens on the same day Micheal Cohen testifies in the US regarding the behaviour of one Donald Trump.

I've been watching TV but the Cohen thing is more interesting. I'll catch up to the other one later when it's done. Scheer must be drooling over her opening statements though.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 27, 2019, 03:25:26 pm
I've been watching TV but the Cohen thing is more interesting. I'll catch up to the other one later when it's done. Scheer must be drooling over her opening statements though.

I don't really give a crap about Scheer...   this is about the PM and his staff trying to influence a prosecution for political reasons. 

From what I've heard, the PM should resign.  JWR has more ethics in her little finger than the entire PMO.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2019, 03:31:41 pm
I don't really give a crap about Scheer...   this is about the PM and his staff trying to influence a prosecution for political reasons. 

From what I've heard, the PM should resign.  JWR has more ethics in her little finger than the entire PMO.

Yep, from what I have seen so far it's not a great day for Justin.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 27, 2019, 05:14:05 pm
Yep, from what I have seen so far it's not a great day for Justin.

Now I am going to try be fair and objective. Of course you are right. Having listened to and still listening to her replies she felt inappropriately pressured.

I will tell you what though. My major concern is the head of the Privy Council. It was his role to tell Justin Trudeau to cool it. He had a role as the neutral top civil servant to say to Justin, stop you are going over the line. He did not. In fact he enabled and empowered the PM to continue pushing.

Here is the thing.  Jody R is dead on correct. As AG you can not under any circumstance consider political considerations when determining appropriate plea bargains or sentences. Everything she said about the AG's role and my criticism of the Privy Council head I stated yesterday are the same and I would say every lawyer would understand this. Its basic law. the AG can only consider the merits of the evidence when deciding a sentence or plea.

No I do not think its inappropriate any PM or Minister OTHER than the AG worry about political fall-out when deciding policies or what kind of legislation to pass. However not  as to  pleas with specific prosecutions. In regards to  law in general, yes broad policy considerations are the domain of the Minister of Justice, but not for a specific prosecution  when the Minister then acts as AG.

The attempt by the Liberals at the inquiry today to say deferred prosecution agreements are normal is not and was not the issue. The issue was communicating to the AG as to how to use the deferred prosecution agreement in specific regard to the Lanalin case. That was the issue. The Liberals tried to redefine public interest as concern that if Lanalin did not get a certain plea it could cause political fall out, i.e., loss of jobs and that concern is a legitimate consideration to build a plea. No its not.

That's not the AG's criteria for consideration of a deferred prosecution agreement. It can't be because it does not consider the merits or evidence of the case.

As well a deferred prosecution agreement which is simply a reworded term for a  plea bargain for a corporation  is something the current Liberals want to paint as legitimate. No, its not legitimate if its not used properly. Its the context in which it is used that makes it legally appropriate or not. Today the Liberals  tried to argue its  used in other countries and so its non problematic. No. Plea bargains of any kind can not lend to the appearance of providing favourable treatment. Plea bargains are used because courts are over-loaded with cases or because they properly match a sentence to the nature of the crime committed.

Plea bargains still must follow the sentence parameters of the criminal code as well. This latest  deferred prosecution agreement was specifically created and passed by hiding it in an Omnibus bill to avoid open debate in Parliament as to what grounds it would be used for, before it was used.

Arguing as the Liberals now do that its a legitimate consideration to consider sentencing predicated on how many people might lose jobs if you find their companyis  guilty is bullshit.

Public interest can not be advanced by allowing corporations to feel because they employ people, they can expect  a different standard of behaviour and sentencing in society.


No public interest can not be defined as what gets the PM re-elected.

The head of the Privy Council had the role to step in and say to Trudeau-Sir you have a right to be concerned as to the negative fall-out over Lanalin and consider it in cabinet discussions but you can not change laws or force your AG to influence a prosecution to give favourable treatment to a company  because you fear losing votes in Quebec. Your role as a partisan head of government can not over-ride the role of the AG prescribed to her by law. If you want to pass legislation to undo certain crimes and make them non existent, you can do tht, but you can't influence a prosecution outcome.


I see no evidence of the Privy Council head warning Trudeau to stop.  Why not? Well this arrogant prick told the committee he felt it appropriate both he and the PM pressure the AG.

I think Trudeau showed poor judgement and immaturity in how he handled this matter and should have walked away once told by Jody R she could not interfere. He did not and he must b e held accountable. She could not have been any clearer.  There was undue political interference against the AG.

HI can not help but wonder, if the Privy Council head acted non partisan and told Trudeau to stop, would he have continued as he did? I believe it could be argued the Privy Council led Trudeau to believe he could keep pressuring the AG and that may have been one factor in the questionable behaviour. Non-partisan advice Trudeau needed was not there.

Of course Butts pressured the AG we well  but Butt's  job was to cover the PM's ass at all costs and laws are an inconvenience to him... if they would get in the way of reelecting Justin which Butts felt it did in this specific case.

The AG was 100% correct on this one and the Privy Council needs to be fired immediately and Trudeau looks like he fired Jody R when she would not compromise her role as AG to placate Trudeau's political concerns as to Lavalin.

As for Trudeau people in the next election have to decide is this the kind of leader they want Do you want your laws superceded by partisan motives or not? He has done it with our immigration laws, with Kadr, with his Christmas trip with the Aga Kahn, now this. This won't stop. Trudeau is not one used to being told no.

Trudeau acting like a spoiled vengeful **** is no surprise  The lack of safeguard to curtail the PM from engaging in this behaviour by the Privy Council head does surprise me. He needs to be tossed on his ass.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2019, 05:29:13 pm
Considering whether to prosecute or not based on how many jobs are at stake is exactly what the DPA is all about. Sorry if you didn't understand that. Inappropriate "Arm twisting" on that issue is what is being questioned now. No precedent so far as it is a new legislation.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 05:39:51 pm
I don't really give a crap about Scheer...   this is about the PM and his staff trying to influence a prosecution for political reasons. 

From what I've heard, the PM should resign.  JWR has more ethics in her little finger than the entire PMO.

I'll wager to guess that Justin is done, one way or the other.  Sunny ways...

Butts at least was able to get out before the **** hit the fan for him.  As I said before, he learned well from his mentor Dalton McGuinty when to get out.  These two had dreams of social justice, but you can't have social justice while trying to bully your colleagues around.

JWR's accusations are very serious, it sounds like harassment and reprisal from the PMO/PM.  She could probably sue if she wanted to.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 05:52:40 pm
;D you've gone from "pressuring" to "badgering" to now... "pleading" - oh my! Again, other than an anonymous sourced G&M article and your subjective determination on what constitutes pressuring badgering pleading to the level that your sensitive fee-fees just can't take it any more... ya gots nuthin, ya gots diddly! Perhaps (tomorrow) we'll see if your subjectivity aligns with... measures up to... that of St. Jody!

Is the waldo on the Liberal Party payroll or something?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 27, 2019, 06:03:57 pm
Quote
Inappropriate "Arm twisting" on that issue is what is being questioned now. No precedent so far as it is a new legislation.

Nonsense.  Political interference in prosecutions is not allowed under the Conflict of Interest Act and is certainly nothing new.

Unless you meant the DPAs...   but that has very little to do with this, other than the PMO trying to get one for SNC-L.  But whether it was a DPA, or any other thing for SNC-L to avoid prosecution really makes no difference. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 06:04:41 pm
JWR has impressed me very much. She's is one tough woman, they couldn't get her on any question and she wouldn't let anyone spin her words.  She's a great lawyer it seems.  Hard to trip up a former lawyer and attorney general of canada on the "witness stand".

Very odd to see the CPC and NDP committee members clearly on her side during questioning, while the Liberal MP's asking JWR questions were out to destroy her and undermine what she was saying.  I guess we know why she's no longer in cabinet now.  She has no confidence in the PM or cabinet it seems. 

I wonder if she'll even stay in the party, i suppose it all depends on what happens to Justin.  The country will rally around JWR, while her colleagues will be torn between standing with her & the public sentiment or with the PM and go down with a sinking ship.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 06:12:43 pm
JWR's accusations are very serious, it sounds like harassment and reprisal from the PMO/PM.  She could probably sue if she wanted to.

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F0d%2F0d5fc068735f912f0c82a16d6bd05f95c357f75a60a670072158a95b40b2b735.jpg&hash=5cc64896e62d9690e4203c78d14c7c0ea89369a7)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 06:13:41 pm
Is the waldo on the Liberal Party payroll or something?

why such personalization? Why are you trying to marginalize the waldo?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 27, 2019, 06:16:45 pm
the waldo

Referencing oneself in the third person?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 06:46:40 pm
I'll wager to guess that Justin is done, one way or the other.  Sunny ways...

;D ah yes, ever the 'over-the-top' guy, you are!

- c'mon man, JWR was asked directly and pointedly if she ever received direction to defer the DPA... from either the PM, the PMO or the Clerk of the Privy Council. She replied NO.

- JWR emphasized 'keeping an open mind' is a key requirement for the role/position of AJ; accordingly, JWR was asked directly and pointedly if she had an open mind, showed an open mind, in evaluating her decision when/if new information or new context for prior information was presented to her. JWR refused to answer that question and instead deflected it towards the Director of the PPSC.

- JWR was repeatedly directly and pointedly asked why she never resigned over her concerns, why she never raised her concerns with the Ethics Commissionaire - she never once answered to this repeated questioning.

- JWR was asked if she ever formalized her initial decision - in what manner it was done and where it was made. JWR weakly and sheepishly replied... "I took copious notes"!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 06:47:23 pm
Referencing oneself in the third person?

why such personalization? Why are you trying to marginalize the waldo?  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 06:49:53 pm
Referencing oneself in the third person?
Oooh...and referencing that third person reference in the fourth person! I like.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 27, 2019, 06:55:07 pm
Question period is going to be good tomorrow
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 07:20:53 pm
It's impressive that Canada still has healthy political system where even with the tyranny of majority government they can root out even the slightest hint of corruption and make people account for it.
Compare that to down south where it would just become a crazy partisan nightmare with people denying reality and blaming the media and nobody being held to account for anything. Even things way worse than making sure an Attorney General is well aware of the damage her decisions could precipitate.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 07:28:46 pm
Justin is now doubling down on his denials in a press conference.  While flanked with a whole bunch of minorities like black women, black men, other people of colour...and a couple of white men/women.  I guess he doesn't want us to make this look like white guy vs indigenous woman.

Well, now it's a matter of who do we believe?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 07:45:19 pm
There's a grey area between providing information and applying pressure, and where you personally consider the line of inappropriate behaviour is crossed. Some would think there should be no discussion between the AG and her colleagues regarding a decision; others might think it's their job to make sure the AG is fully aware of the potential ramifications of every decision before it's made. It seems JWR is among the former and much of the rest of the party is in the latter group.
So it's not so much a matter of believing one and not the other. It's just where you draw that line.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on February 27, 2019, 07:55:53 pm
Saving jobs in Quebec > Prosecuting a Corrupt company.
Just goes to show, Liberal or Tory, same old story.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2019, 08:03:55 pm
Question period is going to be good tomorrow

Where's Waldo?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2019, 08:13:25 pm
There's a grey area between providing information and applying pressure, and where you personally consider the line of inappropriate behaviour is crossed. Some would think there should be no discussion between the AG and her colleagues regarding a decision; others might think it's their job to make sure the AG is fully aware of the potential ramifications of every decision before it's made. It seems JWR is among the former and much of the rest of the party is in the latter group.
So it's not so much a matter of believing one and not the other. It's just where you draw that line.

"It's your decision but", is applying pressure, particularly when it is coming from your boss or his flunkies.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 27, 2019, 08:16:16 pm
"It's your decision but", is applying pressure, particularly when it is coming from your boss or his flunkies.


Maybe, but the question of whether or not that's appropriate is far less clear.  The entire cabinet serves at the pleasure of the Crown, wielded by the PM - he had every right to replace her for any reason.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 08:20:10 pm
"It's your decision but", is applying pressure, particularly when it is coming from your boss or his flunkies.
Is it? It sounds to me more like you're reinforcing the fact it's her decision and making sure that's clear.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 27, 2019, 08:47:07 pm
Justin is now doubling down on his denials in a press conference.  While flanked with a whole bunch of minorities like black women, black men, other people of colour...and a couple of white men/women.  I guess he doesn't want us to make this look like white guy vs indigenous woman.

Well, now it's a matter of who do we believe?

Trudeau is the greatest flake PM Canada has ever had.  Even more so than Kim Campbell.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 27, 2019, 09:11:47 pm

Maybe, but the question of whether or not that's appropriate is far less clear.  The entire cabinet serves at the pleasure of the Crown, wielded by the PM - he had every right to replace her for any reason.

I don’t think it’s unclear....

Section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act spells it out quite clearly...

Quote
Influence

9 No public office holder shall use his or her position as a public office holder to seek to influence a decision of another person so as to further the public office holder’s private interests or those of the public office holder’s relatives or friends or to improperly further another person’s private interests.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 27, 2019, 09:34:43 pm
Trudeau is the greatest flake PM Canada has ever had.  Even more so than Kim Campbell.

Yeah, no.  He wasn't up to the job.  They oversold him on image and moral superiority.  Things like.. oh... the economy didn't work out so well for him.  And NAFTA.  And China.  These would be tough for any PM but he just wasn't ready.

But this... it's pretty weird how she reacted to this.  Maybe she really hated his guts.

For a laugh - check out August1991's question on MLW: "Will she be the next PM ?"

 ;D  ;D  ;D   Whaaaaaat ?!?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 10:07:24 pm
It's impressive that Canada still has healthy political system where even with the tyranny of majority government they can root out even the slightest hint of corruption and make people account for it.

I wouldn't go that far.  Who knows how often this kind of stuff happens.  I think they just messed with the wrong person in JWR.  She's very tough, and very smart, seems ethical, and she's a good enough lawyer to be attorney general & justice minister.

But i agree it's good this stuff comes to light, even if it was through an anonymous source in the media.  Globe & Mail is the best news outlet in the country and has been for awhile, also quite nonpartisan, the leakers knew what they were doing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 10:11:56 pm
Just goes to show, Liberal or Tory, same old story.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

If we want to prevent these things, there needs to be something put in place in the system to catch it. Transparency, oversight.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2019, 10:31:31 pm
But this... it's pretty weird how she reacted to this.  Maybe she really hated his guts.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

The toughest and most impressive lawyers i've seen have been women.  Maybe the 50% female cabinet thing came back to bite him, him & Butts couldn't control the the toughest of them like they wanted.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 27, 2019, 10:40:36 pm
I don’t think it’s unclear....

Section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act spells it out quite clearly...

It's not clear that said applies in this case - the cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.  The situation the PM wanted to see happen is within the allowance of the law. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 10:50:32 pm
I don’t think it’s unclear....

Section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act spells it out quite clearly...
But if you take that absolutely literally, no politician could ever speak to a colleague about any decision before it is made if that decision winds up benefiting anyone in any way. So they could never do their jobs.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 10:54:44 pm
surprised this lil' post was ignored - go figure!

- JWR was asked directly and pointedly if she ever received direction to defer the DPA... from either the PM, the PMO or the Clerk of the Privy Council. She replied NO.

- JWR emphasized 'keeping an open mind' is a key requirement for the role/position of AJ; accordingly, JWR was asked directly and pointedly if she had an open mind, showed an open mind, in evaluating her decision when/if new information or new context for prior information was presented to her. JWR refused to answer that question and instead deflected it towards the Director of the PPSC.

- JWR was repeatedly directly and pointedly asked why she never resigned over her concerns, why she never raised her concerns with the Ethics Commissionaire - she never once answered to this repeated questioning.

- JWR was asked if she ever formalized her initial decision - in what manner it was done and where it was made. JWR weakly and sheepishly replied... "I took copious notes"!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 11:05:08 pm
There's a grey area between providing information and applying pressure, and where you personally consider the line of inappropriate behaviour is crossed. Some would think there should be no discussion between the AG and her colleagues regarding a decision; others might think it's their job to make sure the AG is fully aware of the potential ramifications of every decision before it's made. It seems JWR is among the former and much of the rest of the party is in the latter group. So it's not so much a matter of believing one and not the other. It's just where you draw that line.

very succinct, very astute..... kinda like my repeated emphasis on the subjective interpretation of so-called "pressuring". Clearly, St. Jody couldn't work within typical, standard processes/channels:

Wilson-Raybould battled Bennett, other ministers over Indigenous rights framework (https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/raybould-wernick-framework-1.5029144)

Wilson-Raybould’s regrettable legacy as justice minister (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/01/16/wilson-rayboulds-regrettable-legacy-as-justice-minister.html)

given St. Jody's well known difficulties in working with others and her failures on the job, the cabinet shuffle was appropriate, particularly with the legal background/reputation/capabilities of the now current AJ/Justice Minister, David Lametti
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2019, 11:09:52 pm
There's a difference between influencing decisions to benefit your buddy and doing so to benefit your constituents. Trudeau telling JWR he's an MP in Quebec can be interpreted as working for the people who elected him.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2019, 11:11:30 pm
Is it? It sounds to me more like you're reinforcing the fact it's her decision and making sure that's clear.

When you stress the implications of one side of the decision, you are trying to influence the decision. Like Cohen said today, when Tump says to you," that is a great looking tie, right". Obviously the correct answer is that it is a great looking tie.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 11:34:34 pm
I don’t think it’s unclear....

Section 9 of the Conflict of Interest Act spells it out quite clearly...

please, don't just drop a quote - surely, you can speak to your "clear" interpretations by specifically naming said public office holders and by specifically naming their private interests that have been furthered.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 27, 2019, 11:51:31 pm
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

good on ya; surprised you went there! There's certainly a view that JWR is vindictive in her actions... only she can fully detail her rationale relative to her interpretation of being, as you say, 'a woman scorned'.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2019, 11:58:01 pm
It's not clear that said applies in this case - the cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.  The situation the PM wanted to see happen is within the allowance of the law.

I doubt anything the PM said was illegal, the real question is, was it ethical. If JWR felt she was pressured to do something she didn't think was ethical, she is did the right thing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 12:10:38 am
Saving jobs in Quebec > Prosecuting a Corrupt company.
Just goes to show, Liberal or Tory, same old story.

more than on the jobs front (and the potential impact on ~9000 jobs across Canada), there's a concern for the viability of the company... either having it move its base to the UK or having it weakened to the point of take-over. As has been well documented its not the same company as when the (principally early 2000s) Libyan related offenses occurred... all the executive involved have been dispensed with long ago and significant restructuring has occurred. Perhaps you could offer a rationale as to what benefit would be gained in prosecuting the company today versus, for example, imposing significant fines and applying oversight regulations/constraints on its business pursuits in Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 08:18:34 am
I doubt anything the PM said was illegal, the real question is, was it ethical. If JWR felt she was pressured to do something she didn't think was ethical, she is did the right thing.

There’s actually no evidence she did the right thing, either.  She was quite happy to continue until she was ‘demoted’.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 28, 2019, 09:04:36 am
There’s actually no evidence she did the right thing, either.  She was quite happy to continue until she was ‘demoted’.
Exactly, she didn’t do as requested so she got demoted. So I guess it wasn’t really her decision after I all.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 09:07:36 am
Exactly, she didn’t do as requested so she got demoted. So I guess it wasn’t really her decision after I all.

But she didn't get demoted.  There are no junior ministers in the Trudeau government.  Where she sits in cabinet and whether she sits there at all is up to Trudeau.  She threw a fit, and threw her own party under the bus.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 28, 2019, 09:17:51 am
But she didn't get demoted.  There are no junior ministers in the Trudeau government.  Where she sits in cabinet and whether she sits there at all is up to Trudeau.  She threw a fit, and threw her own party under the bus.



You used the word demoted. She just provided a little of that transparency Justin talked about so much. People can decide for themselves who got thrown.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 09:47:15 am
You used the word demoted. She just provided a little of that transparency Justin talked about so much. People can decide for themselves who got thrown.

That's why I put it in ''.  She obviously considered it a demotion.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Goddess on February 28, 2019, 09:56:07 am
I read somewhere that the bulk of Trudeau's trust fund is in SNC-Lavalin shares.  I haven't been able to confirm or deny that information.  But it makes sense to me - why he is more concerned about 9,000 SNC-Lavalin jobs in Quebec than 40,000 lost jobs in Alberta that don't affect his trust fund in any way.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on February 28, 2019, 11:00:25 am
That's why I put it in ''.  She obviously considered it a demotion.

100% it was a demotion. That's like saying, going from Finance Minister to Agriculture Minister is a lateral move.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Goddess on February 28, 2019, 11:26:39 am
The persistent use of the "Dumb" rating by a certain individual, stands as a banner in his personal army that says, "I am right, you are wrong and I don't care why you think that way." 

There's a subtle violence to it.  It stops dead any type of dialogue.  Any response to it seems as defending a premise.  Utterly convinced of the rightness and/or morality of their personal position and unwilling to to examine any other - no logic or new information is ever examined with fairness.  There is no exchange with such a calcified brain, devoid of flexibility, locked within itself.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on February 28, 2019, 11:28:51 am
That's why I put it in ''.  She obviously considered it a demotion.

So did everyone else. That was the big story of the cabinet shuffle.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2019, 11:44:35 am
I admit I haven't scrolled through all of the JWR testimony (too many Trump distractions just now) but I did read where she said during questioning that there was nothing illegal with what occurred in the case. So that brings us back to appropriate vs inappropriate pressures put on her. If she was reminded that if she didn't intervene to stop the SNC prosecution that the company would likely fail and ~9000 jobs in PQ could be lost, that would be pressure, but not inappropriate both because it's a fact, and it's why the DPA act was enacted in the first place. If she was told if you don't intervene you might find yourself moved out of that chair, I'd say that crosses the line. Do we know if she was threatened in that way yet?   
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 28, 2019, 11:50:08 am
I admit I haven't scrolled through all of the JWR testimony (too many Trump distractions just now) but I did read where she said during questioning that there was nothing illegal with what occurred in the case. So that brings us back to appropriate vs inappropriate pressures put on her. If she was reminded that if she didn't intervene to stop the SNC prosecution that the company would likely fail and ~9000 jobs in PQ could be lost, that would be pressure, but not inappropriate both because it's a fact, and it's why the DPA act was enacted in the first place. If she was told if you don't intervene you might find yourself moved out of that chair, I'd say that crosses the line. Do we know if she was threatened in that way yet?

What if she wasn't threatened with it, but they did it when she wouldn't do what they wanted?   It's still inappropriate.  The next Minister that comes along now knows when the PM asks you to intervene on behalf of a company in a criminal matter, then you do it or you'll be relegated to something less relevant. 

If what the PMO did here isn't inappropriate influence, then there is nothing they could do that is inappropriate.  This was a criminal matter and the PMO wanted their pet company to walk away with no punishment.  Rigging the justice system in favour of your influential friends is not what we normally should do.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 28, 2019, 11:54:25 am
The government was also prepared to have friendly op-eds put into newspapers that justified SNC-L getting away with what they did if the Minister would let them off.  This smacks of propaganda that a banana republic would put out.  It's worse than Harper's private news network nonsense because it attempts to infiltrate actual media with their propaganda.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2019, 11:59:40 am
What if she wasn't threatened with it, but they did it when she wouldn't do what they wanted?   It's still inappropriate.  The next Minister that comes along now knows when the PM asks you to intervene on behalf of a company in a criminal matter, then you do it or you'll be relegated to something less relevant. 

If what the PMO did here isn't inappropriate influence, then there is nothing they could do that is inappropriate.  This was a criminal matter and the PMO wanted their pet company to walk away with no punishment.  Rigging the justice system in favour of your influential friends is not what we normally should do.

The DPA certainly presents the potential to be applied inappropriately, but on the other hand I think if applied appropriately it's worthwhile to allow company directors to be "taken to the woodshed" financially and then be given a chance to clean up it's act while not punishing the majority of employees. I reckon there is still a lot of fallout to come from this case.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 28, 2019, 12:12:18 pm
The persistent use of the "Dumb" rating by a certain individual, stands as a banner in his personal army that says, "I am right, you are wrong and I don't care why you think that way." 

There's a subtle violence to it.  It stops dead any type of dialogue.  Any response to it seems as defending a premise.  Utterly convinced of the rightness and/or morality of their personal position and unwilling to to examine any other - no logic or new information is ever examined with fairness.  There is no exchange with such a calcified brain, devoid of flexibility, locked within itself.
That's some pretty subtle violence. Why not just completely ignore it and continue expressing yourself,  rather than allow it to shut down conversation? Please don't be like SirJohn and leave entirely because of some dumb post rating system.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Goddess on February 28, 2019, 12:14:33 pm
That's some pretty subtle violence. Why not just completely ignore it and continue expressing yourself,  rather than allow it to shut down conversation? Please don't be like SirJohn and leave entirely because of some dumb post rating system.

Alternatively, some people could stop being such a baby and express their disagreement with words instead of a dumb rating system.

I do mostly ignore it, as Sir John did, until it got to the point of ridiculousness.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2019, 12:42:47 pm
Whatever happened to AECL? Remember Harper sold it to SNC-Lavalin about 8 years ago for $15 million, although he also gave the $75 million to continue development so basically they got what took billions in investment over many decades and $60 million to boot. This is relevant because if SNC-Lavalin moves out of Canada, they will take our nuclear technology as well.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 28, 2019, 01:19:28 pm
Oooh...and referencing that third person reference in the fourth person! I like.

He ripped it off The Rock from the WWE
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 01:23:40 pm
Alternatively, some people could stop being such a baby and express their disagreement with words instead of a dumb rating system.

I do mostly ignore it, as Sir John did, until it got to the point of ridiculousness.

You're reading more into it than is there.  It's a way to express profound disagreement with the very idea of something - like the idea that Trudeau doesn't care about jobs in Alberta. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 01:26:25 pm
I read somewhere that the bulk of Trudeau's trust fund is in SNC-Lavalin shares.  I haven't been able to confirm or deny that information.  But it makes sense to me - why he is more concerned about 9,000 SNC-Lavalin jobs in Quebec than 40,000 lost jobs in Alberta that don't affect his trust fund in any way.

the Liberal Party government/Trudeau have and continue to support the Keystone KXL pipeline; given actions/statements by Kinder Morgan, the Liberal Party government moved to have the federal government purchase the TransMountain pipeline - securing the future viability of the new pipeline; the Liberal Party government has repeatedly supported past/current initiatives toward securing final court-sanctioned authority to allow the new TransMountain pipeline to proceed.

it's actually ~9000 SNC-Lavalin jobs in Canada - ~4000 in Quebec

in terms of the Prime Minister's inheritance, per rules, the PM's share resides in a blind trust. Specifically, to the related investments:
– 90562 Canada Inc., the federal corporation that held a portfolio of securities that were part of Trudeau’s inheritance from his father, Pierre Trudeau, that he shared with his brother, Alexandre. The securities were managed by Montreal investment firm Jarislowsky Fraser. The corporation was dissolved in December 2013.

– 7664699 Canada Inc., Trudeau’s personal holding company, which was used when the inheritance was split up. In 2013, the company listed $958,000 in short-term investments and $255,000 in cash. Per required compliance:

OCIEC Translation - I {Justin Trudeau} am the sole owner of the shares of 7664699 Canada Inc., a private corporation. Prior to becoming a reporting public office holder, I voluntarily placed my shares in a blind trust. In order to comply with the requirements of the Conflict of Interest Act, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner determined that an agreed compliance measure was required. Consequently, I have undertaken not to provide any advice, instruction or direction, nor participate in any discussion or decision making processes in respect of the management, disposition or investment of any controlled assets, as defined in section 20 of the Conflict of Interest Act, held in 7664699 Canada Inc.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 01:49:27 pm
recent 'rolled-up' tweet thread from someone who worked directly with JWR, Vancouver Criminal Lawyer - Paul Doroshenko, Q.C.

(https://i.imgur.com/aaIBfUp.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 28, 2019, 01:50:57 pm
... like the idea that Trudeau doesn't care about jobs in Alberta.

...or the conspiracy theory nonsense about where he has investments. 

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 02:50:45 pm
 ;D seems Mr. Butts wants a say!

*****BREAKING NEWS*****BREAKING NEWS*****BREAKING NEWS*****BREAKING NEWS*****BREAKING NEWS*****BREAKING NEWS*****


(https://i.imgur.com/QcT9mQI.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Goddess on February 28, 2019, 02:53:09 pm
You're reading more into it than is there.  It's a way to express profound disagreement with the very idea of something - like the idea that Trudeau doesn't care about jobs in Alberta.

I believe that is the intended purpose of it.  It appears to be used more as a harassment by some people, since they rarely will say WHAT they think is dumb or what they disagree with about what you've said.  Like a drive-by  insult coming from someone with not enough balls to actually face you.  Sir John was given a Dumb rating every single time he posted, no matter what he said.  And it appears that I am the new Sir John.

That's the last I'll say on it, and will continue to ignore the person but it's a weasel way of participating in a discussion forum.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2019, 03:00:32 pm
I believe that is the intended purpose of it.  It appears to be used more as a harassment by some people, since they rarely will say WHAT they think is dumb or what they disagree with about what you've said.  Like a drive-by  insult coming from someone with not enough balls to actually face you.  Sir John was given a Dumb rating every single time he posted, no matter what he said.  And it appears that I am the new Sir John.

That's the last I'll say on it, and will continue to ignore the person but it's a weasel way of participating in a discussion forum.

sir Argus seems to be doing ok over yonder where the alt right, xenophobes, trump supporter/Canada trolls hang out. None of what he says gets labelled "dumb" over there. 

This is thread drift though.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 04:13:28 pm
Jody Wilson-Raybould Did A Poor Job As Justice Minister (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/kyla-lee/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin_a_23669171/?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter)

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2019, 04:27:22 pm
seems Mr. Butts wants a say!

Canadian politics have been too boring for a while, finally we can stand ground with the Americans.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2019, 04:30:26 pm
Canadian politics have been too boring for a while, finally we can stand ground with the Americans.

Aaah I dunno. I don't think we have racked up anywhere near as many scandals compared to trumpty dumpty.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on February 28, 2019, 05:07:18 pm
https://calgaryherald.com/news/politics/snc-lavalin-paid-for-gadhafi-sons-debauchery-while-he-was-in-canada-report/wcm/73e31fbc-5203-43b0-ad59-3aefb92bba45

Quote
New details have emerged about Quebec engineering giant SNC-Lavalin’s cozy relationship with the son of former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, including the company allegedly hiring prostitutes for him during a visit to Canada a decade ago.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on February 28, 2019, 05:24:18 pm
Canadian politics have been too boring for a while, finally we can stand ground with the Americans.

Srsly ?  You have the president's personal lawyer testifying that they drove around Chicago with him making racist comments.  That he got Cohen to threaten his high school.

Be careful what level of excitement you wish for.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 28, 2019, 06:07:21 pm
You're reading more into it than is there.  It's a way to express profound disagreement with the very idea of something - like the idea that Trudeau doesn't care about jobs in Alberta.
Expressing disagreement with a post can be done by choosing disagree. Choosing dumb is intended to be condescending and insulting. My response to these ratings is to render then meaningless by marking every post by the offending trio as 'dumb'.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 06:09:41 pm
yet another tweet thread 'roll-up'... claiming 'facts' that counter the St. Jody narrative:

(https://i.imgur.com/6RwW13O.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 06:25:11 pm
I read somewhere that the bulk of Trudeau's trust fund is in SNC-Lavalin shares.  I haven't been able to confirm or deny that information.  But it makes sense to me - why he is more concerned about 9,000 SNC-Lavalin jobs in Quebec than 40,000 lost jobs in Alberta that don't affect his trust fund in any way.

He cares more because 1. Quebec votes much more Liberal than Alberta, and has a big population of votes/MP's, 2. There was a Quebec election around the time, 3. Trudeau is from Quebec and is a Quebec MP(a more minor consideration than the first 2).

I think he still does care about AB jobs though.  I mean he did have the gov buy the pipeline and try to push it through, but was quashed by the courts.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 06:37:05 pm
- JWR was repeatedly directly and pointedly asked why she never resigned over her concerns, why she never raised her concerns with the Ethics Commissionaire - she never once answered to this repeated questioning.

I believe she did address the former.  Why would she resign if she did nothing wrong, if she was just doing her job?  She wasn't going to let them beat her down, and she hasn't, despite all sorts of attempts, including demotion & numerous attacks on her character.  She knew they could and might boot her out, and they did, but not without a fight.

As for the latter, it's a legit question why she never raised these ethics concerns internally.  It's also a question of who were these anonymous sources that leaked to the media.  I have to assume it was likely either her or someone around her.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 06:45:29 pm
That's why I put it in ''.  She obviously considered it a demotion.

Seems like a widespread consensus that it's considered such.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 06:52:42 pm
Expressing disagreement with a post can be done by choosing disagree. Choosing dumb is intended to be condescending and insulting. My response to these ratings is to render then meaningless by marking every post by the offending trio as 'dumb'.

I don't agree - I use dumb very occasionally.  It isn't meant as an insult.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 06:53:13 pm
Seems like a widespread consensus that it's considered such.

But it isn't really one - a department with a huge workforce and a $4B per year budget is hardly a menial task.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 06:53:19 pm
But she didn't get demoted.  There are no junior ministers in the Trudeau government.

There's a pretty clear hierarchy within a caucus and within a cabinet.  Put Morneau as the Minister of Sport and see how he likes it.  Prime Ministers have long used their power to appoint and remove MPs to/from different cabinet posts, committees, and schedule speaking time in the House of Commons etc. to reward or punish MPs based on their obedience.  Parliament is one big ass-kissing party.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 06:54:03 pm
There's a pretty clear hierarchy within a caucus and within a cabinet.  Put Morneau as the Minister of Sport and see how he likes it.  Prime Ministers have long used their power to appoint and remove MPs to/from different cabinet posts, committees, and schedule speaking time in the House of Commons etc. to reward or punish MPs based on their obedience.  Parliament is one big ass-kissing party.

Sure but Trudeau made a pretty big show of making all Ministers equal within his government.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 06:57:58 pm
Canadian politics have been too boring for a while, finally we can stand ground with the Americans.

Maybe Trudeau had some Trump envy and wanted in on the action  :D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on February 28, 2019, 07:00:12 pm
I don't agree - I use dumb very occasionally.  It isn't meant as an insult.
You probably use it on posts that a neutral observer could agree are dumb. The 'dumb' trio leaves it on well argued and thoughtful posts that certainly don't deserve that label. They use it to insult and dismiss. It is the equivalent to f*** you.

BTW: we live in a world where intentions don't matter. perceptions do. so if people perceive something to be a deliberate insult then it is a deliberate insult. Now if you want to revisit the standards brought to us by progressives then we can but that is a separate discussion.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 07:17:05 pm
From JWR's opening statement:

Quote
It is well-established that when the AG exercises prosecutorial discretion, she or he does so individually and independently. These are not cabinet decisions.

I will say that it is appropriate for Cabinet colleagues to draw to the AG’s attention what they see as important public policy considerations that are relevant to decisions about how a prosecution will proceed. What is not appropriate is pressing on the AG matters that she or he cannot take into account, such as partisan political considerations; continuing to urge the AG to change her or his mind for months after the decision has been made; or suggesting that a collision with the Prime Minister on these matters should be avoided.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 28, 2019, 07:32:54 pm
Considering whether to prosecute or not based on how many jobs are at stake is exactly what the DPA is all about. Sorry if you didn't understand that. Inappropriate "Arm twisting" on that issue is what is being questioned now. No precedent so far as it is a new legislation.

Clearly you do not understand what a dpa is, what plea bargaining is, when they are both used, and what limits they have because if you did you would know dpa's don't use employment issues as a criteria to determine a sentence.

To start with a dpa can not add to, supercede, replace s.718 [/b]of the Criminal Code which states:

Purpose

718. The fundamental purpose of sentencing is to contribute, along with crime prevention initiatives, to respect for the law and the maintenance of a just, peaceful and safe society by imposing just sanctions that have one or more of the following objectives:
(a) to denounce unlawful conduct;
(b) to deter the offender and other persons from committing offences;
(c) to separate offenders from society, where necessary;
(d) to assist in rehabilitating offenders;
(e) to provide reparations for harm done to victims or to the community; and
(f) to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders, and acknowledgment of the harm done to victims and to the community.

and

Other sentencing principles
718.2 A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:
(a) a sentence should be increased or reduced to account for any relevant aggravating or mitigating circumstances relating to the offence or the offender, and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing,
(i) evidence that the offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or any other similar factor,
(ii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused the offender’s spouse or common-law partner,
(ii.1) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused a person under the age of eighteen years,
(iii) evidence that the offender, in committing the offence, abused a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim,
(iv) evidence that the offence was committed for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a criminal organization, or
(v) evidence that the offence was a terrorism offence
shall be deemed to be aggravating circumstances;

Any dpa must conform to and complement not contradict or ignore the above principles of sentencing.

Using your reasoning that a dpa can take into consideration something unrelated to the crime such as potential negative voter fall out or unemployment makes no common sense. First of all no one can say for sure if a criminal sentence would by itself trigger negative voter fall out or unemployment. Its too indirect a result to be a consideration.

Next if we created lesser sentences for criminals because their sentence may indirectly impact negatively on their employees when would this stop? If you do it for Lavalin you must do it for all criminals who are employers. So who next. Oh wait, organized criminals hire employees who do not themselves commit crimes, do we give them lesser sentences?

Of course not.

What we let a rapist off because if he doesn't return to his company it goes under and his employees lose their jobs?

Nonsense.

There is a reason the elements of consideration of criminal sentencing are directly related to the elements of the crime (the crime's impact on human behaviour to do the same crime).

Criminal law is supposed to serve as a warning to others NOT to do the same behaviour. It can't condone the behaviour because of a concept that employment concerns or voter concerns over-ride principles of criminal concern. That would undermine the entire purpose of criminal law and create the belief that employing people entitles you to a lesser sentence for a crime.

A deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) is in fact non-prosecution agreement. In such agreements prosecutors agrees to grant amnesty, i.e., NOT PURSUE a trial or prosecution in exchange for an agreement that the accused agree to fulfill certain requirements, i.e., pay a fine, suspend operations until new procedures are put in place to guarantee the same behaviour can not happen again and an agreement of a moratorium or time period of not getting certain business and to fully cooperate with the completion of any criminal investigation. If that is all done charges are dismissed.

Unlike a plea bargain the Judge is never involved because the prosecution is never commenced.

In a plea bargain the prosecution is commenced which necessarily means any agreed upon pleading must go before the Judge for final approval. Its the Judge who decides if the plea is acceptable.

DPA's are much rarer than plea bargains.

Let's be clear, the PM created a dpa and passed it into law hiding it in an omnibus bill. This PM said he would never use omnibus bills because they prevent proper debate in Parliament.

Yet this PM did just that and he passed through the dpa with zero discussion because if the criteria in the dpa would have been disclosed, it would have been exposed as contrary to s.718 of the Criminal Code and therefore not appropriate as it would undermine the criminal sentencing process.

That's why Trudeau snuck it by and he was wrong to do so.

A prosecutor not Justin Trudeau decides what if any plea or sentence is appropriate by considering the elements of the offence only. The elements of the offence do not include whether the criminal employs people who might lose jobs if the criminal goes to jail.

to be continued.





Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 28, 2019, 07:39:20 pm
As of this evening the Opposition Leader asked the RCMP to commence a criminal investigation as to whether Trudeau  et al violated s.139(l) of the Criminal Code.

Obstructing justice

139. (1) Every one who wilfully attempts in any manner to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice in a judicial proceeding,
(a) by indemnifying or agreeing to indemnify a surety, in any way and either in whole or in part, or
(b) where he is a surety, by accepting or agreeing to accept a fee or any form of indemnity whether in whole or in part from or in respect of a person who is released or is to be released from custody,
is guilty of
(c) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or
(d) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Idem
(2) Every one who wilfully attempts in any manner other than a manner described in subsection (1) to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
Idem
(3) Without restricting the generality of subsection (2), every one shall be deemed wilfully to attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice who in a judicial proceeding, existing or proposed,
(a) dissuades or attempts to dissuade a person by threats, bribes or other corrupt means from giving evidence;
(b) influences or attempts to influence by threats, bribes or other corrupt means a person in his conduct as a juror; or
(c) accepts or obtains, agrees to accept or attempts to obtain a bribe or other corrupt consideration to abstain from giving evidence, or to do or to refrain from doing anything as a juror.

I myself do not think there is sufficient evidence to prove a wilful attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice. There certainly was an intent to pressure the AG but to prove it was criminal in intent is another story. Proving mens rea or criminal intent would mean proving Trudeau ordered the AG to implement the dpa. He never ordered it. So I think in that sense he falls short of having committed a crime.

However he certainly has made it clear he believes getting re-elected in Quebec  with the help of corporate criminals is more important to him than protecting Canadians from those corporate criminals. That is the point Trudeau has so blatantly missed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 28, 2019, 07:56:18 pm
Everyone take a step back and ask yourself what is political corruption.

That is the issue at hand. Something can be politically corrupt but legal. If Omni or any Liberal or Trudeau want to defend what they did as being legal it doesn't mean it was not politically corrupt and we as Canadians have the right to clearly identify what is political corruption and say NO its not an acceptable social value we want in our politicians who hold office.

We all know that corruption constitutes a type of conflict of interest and in the Lavalin case, a conflict  between Trudeau's concern of political fall out and not getting re-elected if Lavalin was properly sentenced with the public interest, namely the need to punish and prevent Lavalin from doing what it did again.

Trudeau, his office, and the Privy Council enunciated the political interests of Trudeau to get re-elected in Quebec as being more important in priority (paramount) when considering the sentence to the principles of Criminal sentencing clearly outlined under s.718 of the Criminal Code.

So I ask while it may not obstruct justice does it trigger an offence under s.121(d) of the Code? I would argue it does.

121(1) Every one commits an offence who

(a) directly or indirectly

(i) gives, offers or agrees to give or offer to an official or to any member of his family, or to any one for the benefit of an official, or

(ii) being an official, demands, accepts or offers or agrees to accept from any person for himself or another person, a loan, reward, advantage or benefit of any kind as consideration for cooperation, assistance, exercise of influence or an act or omission in connection with

(iii) the transaction of business with or any matter of business relating to the government, or

(iv) a claim against Her Majesty or any benefit that Her Majesty is authorized or is entitled to
bestow, whether or not, in fact, the official is able to cooperate, render assistance, exercise influence or do or omit to do what is proposed, as the case may be;

(b) having dealings of any kind with the government, directly or indirectly pays a commission or reward to or confers an advantage or benefit of any kind on an employee or official of the government with which the dealings take place, or to any member of the employee’s or official’s family, or to anyone for the benefit of the employee or official, with respect to those dealings, unless the person has the consent in writing of the head of the branch of government with which the dealings take place;

(c) being an official or employee of the government, directly or indirectly demands, accepts or offers or agrees to accept from a person who has dealings with the government a commission, reward, advantage or benefit of any kind for themselves or another person, unless they have the consent in writing of the head of the branch of government that employs them or of which they are an official;

(d) having or pretending to have influence with the government or with a minister of the government or an official, directly or indirectly demands, accepts or offers or agrees to accept, for themselves or another person, a reward, advantage or benefit of any kind as consideration for cooperation, assistance, exercise of influence or an act or omission in connection with
(i) anything mentioned in subparagraph (a)(iii) or (iv), or
(ii) the appointment of any person, including themselves, to an office; (e) directly or indirectly gives or offers, or agrees to give or offer, to a minister of the government or an official, or to anyone for the benefit of a minister or an official, a reward, advantage or benefit of any kind as consideration for cooperation, assistance, exercise of influence, or an act or omission, by that minister or official, in connection with                                           
(i) anything mentioned in subparagraph (a)(iii) or (iv), or (ii) the appointment of any person, including themselves, to an office; or
(f) having made a tender to obtain a contract with the government,
(i) directly or indirectly gives or offers, or agrees to give or offer, to another person who has made a tender, to a member of that person’s family or to another person for the benefit of that person, a reward, advantage or benefit of any kind as consideration for the withdrawal of the tender of that person, or
(ii) directly or indirectly demands, accepts or offers or agrees to accept from another person who has made a tender a reward, advantage or benefit of any kind for themselves or another person as consideration for the withdrawal of their own tender.





Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on February 28, 2019, 08:19:14 pm
I have with great effort tried to explain to Omni that legally you just can't expect a dpa to ignore s.718 of the Criminal Code and that whole Trudeau probably did not obstruct justice he certainly has exposed himself and all his minions to s.121 of the code not to mention the fact that he now advocates that his own need to get re-elected is a legitimate criminal sentence consideration which is absurd.

All that said let's look at the pattern of Trudeau holding himself above the law:

1-he went on a vacation paid by the Aga Kahn who was lobbying the government for funding at the same time and said openly he did nothing wrong;

2-has created a legal standard where people who violate immigration law are afforded legal treatment people who obey immigration law are not afforded undermining the very principles of safe third country and entering Canada legally;

3-he paid Kadr 10 million dollars in a back-room deal rather than go to court and argue he was not entitled to any compensation which was his legal obligation to do on behalf of all Canadians-in so doing he put his personal subjective opinion as to Kadr as being paramount to the needs of protecting the public from returning terrorists;

4-has lectured China in regards to Hua Wei that he does not get involved in  criminal legal processes that are on-going because of the principles of the rule of law in Canada and yet at the very same time was doing just that with the Lavalin case;

5-lectured this country on feminism and sexual harassment saying if a woman says she feels harassed we must believe her and yet when his AG told him that he ignored her and in fact continued to harass her and created a cluster attack on her using the Privy Council head, his Finance Minister, Mr. Butt Boy, and other minions in a deliberate and coordinated exercise of coercion and when that did not work demoted her and replaced her with an AG who has now willingly implemented the dpa knowing this dpa ignores and therefore contradicts the considerations of s.718 of the Criminal Code;

6-told Canadians omnibus bills were dishonest and he would never use one, and used one to sneak by a dpa he specifically drafted to give Lavalin special treatment;

7- encouraged and supported Lavalin to lobby and influence peddle the outcome of a criminal sentence;

8-has fired his only indigenous Minister, her crime-not doing what he said.

Enough is enough. The true Trudeau is out and no I do not want a PM who thinks so little of Canadians he finds criminals who get him re-elected more important than law abiding Canadians. Enough.

One last note-Trudeau is a moron. He knew his AG was a principled woman when he hired her. He knew when he hired her she could not as an indigenous truth seeker violate certain codes of behaviour. I said when she was first hired she was very competent and the best person he had hired. I then said I was disappointed in her when she looked the other way over Kadr. I think Kadr pushed her into taking a stand on this one. That is what I think-that and the way Trudeau has lied to the indigenous peoples.

Trudeau is a moron for this reason. BEFORE Lavalin started he could have shuffled her. In this manner her shuffle would not have been related to Lavalin. He could have sent her over to the Foreign Ministry and Freelander over to the Trade Ministry when he shuffled his decks earlier. He waited. He deliberately waited seeing if he could coerce her first before firing her. Why? What idiot can not read an honest person in politics? How stupid can you get?

He has a very serious problem now. Trudeau has surrounded himself with effeminate women hating men like him. That is clear as crystal. For a man who poses as a feminist its clear as can be he resents and can not deal with strong women.

I said he was brought up with a weak fragile mother. He was taught to believe he was her saviour and therefore the saviour of all women.  He sees his role as the adored son who can do no wrong with women and protects them. He is effeminate as it tones down any exterior elements of behaviour he thinks would scare a woman but underneath his tip toe tap dance effeminate mannerisms is an angry boy who never matured and resents having to be a protector of women. Its not an accident he surrounds himself with passive aggressive feminine men like Seemus O'Reagan and his Finance Minister and his former Treasury Board Minister who quit and ran away from an on-going legal case that would taint him. Look carefully at Trudeau. What you have is a passive aggressive women hating racist. He patronizes ethnics with this superiority patronizing routine that talks down to them and treats them like dummies he protects, thus the India visit, the condescending monkey boy behaviour in India, his lectures to China, Saudi Arabia, Putin. He just does not get it.

He does not get he is not a saviour. His performance last night was that of a true narcissist someone totally out of touch with the public. He can't possibly imagine himself being wrong let alone being perceived as wrong about anything. Mama never told him no. Neither did his Papa. Now he's self destructed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 08:27:27 pm
From JWR's opening statement:

Except that she's totally wrong, as at current, AG is a cabinet level post in Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2019, 08:28:09 pm
Yet another lengthy screed to explain basically nada. If you think a dpa has nothing to do with employment, why did the issue of ~9000 Canadian jobs from SNC-L become front and center?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 09:03:02 pm
- JWR was repeatedly directly and pointedly asked why she never resigned over her concerns, why she never raised her concerns with the Ethics Commissionaire - she never once answered to this repeated questioning.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/key-moments-jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin-scandal-1.5036629

Quote
Asked why she didn't resign from her position as attorney general and justice minister during the time she said improper pressure was being applied, Wilson-Raybould said:

"I was, in my opinion, doing my job as the attorney general. I was protecting a fundamental constitutional principle of prosecutorial independence and the independence of our judiciary. That's my job. That was my job, rather, as the attorney general.

"And as long as I was the attorney general I was going to ensure that the independence of the director of public prosecutions in the exercise of their discretion was not interfered with."
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 09:17:48 pm
Except that she's totally wrong, as at current, AG is a cabinet level post in Canada.

"The Attorney General has to fulfil his or her criminal prosecution duties independently of any political or government pressure. These duties require fairness of the presentation of cases and does not necessarily result in a conviction. This is a basic criminal law precept which is not well-understood at times or perceived as just."

http://www.canadafaq.ca/what+is+the+attorney+general+of+canada/
For whatever that link is worth.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 09:19:20 pm
"The Attorney General has to fulfil his or her criminal prosecution duties independently of any political or government pressure. These duties require fairness of the presentation of cases and does not necessarily result in a conviction. This is a basic criminal law precept which is not well-understood at times or perceived as just."


Right - the onus is on the AG not to bow to pressure. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 09:26:47 pm
Right - the onus is on the AG not to bow to pressure.

Ok, but are you're saying there's no onus on the PM/PMO/Clerk of the Privy Council/government to avoid politically interfering in the independence of our judiciary by applying sustained political pressure and possibly even intimidation and veiled threats?

There's a difficulty in not bowing to pressure when the one who is applying pressure (PM) has the ability to get rid of you.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 09:28:35 pm
Ok, but are you're saying there's no onus on the PM/PMO/Clerk of the Privy Council/government to avoid politically interfering in the independence of our judiciary by applying sustained political pressure and possibly even intimidation and veiled threats?

Well, she's also the Minister of Justice - that's what I'm telling you.  She has more than one job.  If she felt that she was pressured, it was on her not to bow to that pressure.  There's nothing on the rest of them.  Nothing at all.  As she herself said, nothing illegal was done.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 09:31:16 pm
Well, she's also the Minister of Justice - that's what I'm telling you.  She has more than one job.  If she felt that she was pressured, it was on her not to bow to that pressure.  There's nothing on the rest of them.  Nothing at all.  As she herself said, nothing illegal was done.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on February 28, 2019, 09:35:42 pm
JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.

I thought that was an idea, but then, that's why we have the Director of Public Prosecutions in Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 10:36:36 pm
I don't think the PMO/PM has handled this scandal the best they could.  JT has trapped himself in a corner where he has to keep going against JWR's comments.

I wonder if he just admitted whatever happened towards the beginning of all this if the fire would have gone out quicker for the Liberals and be mostly forgotten by October?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on February 28, 2019, 11:49:46 pm
Quote
New details have emerged about Quebec engineering giant SNC-Lavalin’s cozy relationship with the son of former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, including the company allegedly hiring prostitutes for him during a visit to Canada a decade ago.

$30K over a decade ago (with some of that "alleged") - wowzers! Again, none of the related executive of that day remain with the company - they were long ago sent packing. Care to suggest what point you're attempting to make with this and how it might be relevant to an evaluation of the company... today?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 12:17:56 am
There's a pretty clear hierarchy within a caucus and within a cabinet.  Put Morneau as the Minister of Sport and see how he likes it.  Prime Ministers have long used their power to appoint and remove MPs to/from different cabinet posts, committees, and schedule speaking time in the House of Commons etc. to reward or punish MPs based on their obedience.  Parliament is one big ass-kissing party.

JWR was tasked not only with the Ministry of Veteran Affairs, she was also given the role of Associate Minister of National Defence. Your implication that she personally might consider the cabinet shuffle a demotion is simply more consideration for the view JWR is a whiny vindictive person bent on retaliation... and yes, to your earlier point, there is an ever growing sense/suspicion that JWR may herself be the anonymous source for the Robert Fife/G&M story that kicked all this off.

following your demotion theme there is no shortage of opinion (much of it fact based) that JWR performed poorly, was difficult to work with and didn't get along with others; as presented earlier:

=> Jody Wilson-Raybould Did A Poor Job As Justice Minister (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/kyla-lee/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin_a_23669171/?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter)

=> Wilson-Raybould battled Bennett, other ministers over Indigenous rights framework (https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/raybould-wernick-framework-1.5029144)

=> Wilson-Raybould’s regrettable legacy as justice minister (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/01/16/wilson-rayboulds-regrettable-legacy-as-justice-minister.html)

=>
(https://i.imgur.com/6RwW13O.png)

=>
(https://i.imgur.com/aaIBfUp.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 12:58:45 am
Let's be clear, the PM created a dpa and passed it into law hiding it in an omnibus bill.

actually, the Liberal government brought forward the DPA legislation... that was passed into (criminal code) law. Nothing was hidden:

=> there were formal consultations leading up to the bill; consultations which drew 370 participants (370 Canadians, industry associations, businesses, non-governmental organizations and others participated.), and 75 written submissions - all public record.

=> members of the House had opportunity to scrutinize the DPA related provisions within the bill - note: the government of the day isn't responsible for doing the Opposition parties due diligence.

=> there was extensive review of the bill provisions at a Senate committee level - all public record

as an aside: during her recent testimony before the Justice Committee, JWR was asked several times for her personal view on remediation agreements (DPAs) - she refused to answer, advising that her personal view is irrelevant. A most curious/interesting response given: Wilson-Raybould snubbed Senate committee on corporate corruption bill (https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/02/17/news/wilson-raybould-snubbed-senate-committee-corporate-corruption-bill)

Quote
Former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould angered senators by refusing to give testimony on a change to the Criminal Code that is now at the centre of allegations that she was improperly pressured to help SNC-Lavalin avoid criminal prosecution.
.
The {Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs} committee held extensive hearings last May and heard from an array of expert witnesses, including Justice Department officials, who suggested that some questions were best put to the minister of justice. The committee invited Wilson-Raybould but she did not show up.
.
Senators on the committee were sufficiently miffed by Wilson-Raybould's no-show to make an "observation" about it in their final report: "The committee notes it did not have the opportunity to hear the testimony of the minister of justice on the proposed amendments that are under her ministerial mandate, although she was invited to appear."
.
In the case of a minister who personally disagrees with a bill that falls under his or her responsibility, Joyal said: "If the decision of the government is to proceed with the bill, you have no choice than to stand by the bill. And if you don't want to stand by the bill, well, the option is to resign from the portfolio. It's quite clear."
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 01:16:25 am
A prosecutor not Justin Trudeau decides what if any plea or sentence is appropriate by considering the elements of the offence only. The elements of the offence do not include whether the criminal employs people who might lose jobs if the criminal goes to jail.

notwithstanding you wrote hundreds of words on sentencing, none of it is relevant to a remediation agreement (DPA)... at least near the end of your post you actually started to properly speak to the DPA as a 'non-prosecution agreement' (your words)...

as an aside, the case prosecutor did rule in favour of granting SNC-Lavalin a DPA - this was over-ruled by the Director of PPSC. During her Justice Committee testimony, JWR was asked several times why she was not willing to reverse the initial decision (a decision not binding until court commencement) - JWR advised those questions should more properly be directed to the PPSC. More pointedly: from Sept 2018 on through to today, JWR has never presented her legal analysis supporting the rejection of a DPA for SNC-Lavalin.

in any case, good-faith communication centered around 'public interest' could be seen to usurp the 'economic impacts to the company' clause to not grant a DPA.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 01:39:33 am
As of this evening the Opposition Leader asked the RCMP to commence a criminal investigation as to whether Trudeau  et al violated s.139(l) of the Criminal Code.

I myself do not think there is sufficient evidence to prove a wilful attempt to obstruct, pervert or defeat the course of justice. There certainly was an intent to pressure the AG but to prove it was criminal in intent is another story. Proving mens rea or criminal intent would mean proving Trudeau ordered the AG to implement the dpa. He never ordered it. So I think in that sense he falls short of having committed a crime.

during her Justice Committee testimony, in response to repeated questioning, JWR acknowledged no one, NO ONE, directed her to change the PPSC decision against a DPA. Additionally, all manner of legal experts have 'weighed in' to advise there were no illegalities involved in members of the government/PMO/Privy Council (several times over several months) bringing information, analysis, concerns, etc., forward for JWR's consideration - NO ILLEGALITIES. So, of course, the dullard Scheer does what only he can sink to - it will be worth it to see the beeatch slapping the RCMP gives to Scheer Conservatives!

the bottom line: she said/they said... and they say no undue pressures were exerted. JWR' fee-fee sensitivities and vindictive want for retaliation will not persevere.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 01, 2019, 05:37:29 am
the bottom line: she said/they said... and they say no undue pressures were exerted. JWR' fee-fee sensitivities and vindictive want for retaliation will not persevere.

uh-huh.  But here's the thing: when has a senior cabinet minister pulled this kind of Mexican stand-off with a PM ?  And why ?

I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.

In this times we need vision, and I really want to see all three leaders gone and replaced with someone with imagination.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 01, 2019, 06:47:08 am
I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.
Trudeau chose to move JWR out of Justice. That was his fatal mistake. That turned the "normal pressure" into something that is a lot more malevolent in retrospect.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 01, 2019, 08:10:00 am
Trudeau chose to move JWR out of Justice. That was his fatal mistake. That turned the "normal pressure" into something that is a lot more malevolent in retrospect.

That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 01, 2019, 09:14:24 am
uh-huh.  But here's the thing: when has a senior cabinet minister pulled this kind of Mexican stand-off with a PM ?  And why ?

I actually feel like there's a good chance she just went nuclear because of chemistry issues with Butts or Trudeau, and that the 'pressure' wasn't more than what cabinet ministers usually get.  But it's still Trudeau's job to manage his team.

In this times we need vision, and I really want to see all three leaders gone and replaced with someone with imagination.

Peter Mackay should come out of retirement and lead the Tories to victory.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2019, 10:34:02 am
That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.

He wanted to undermine the independence of the the AG and insert Liberal election chances into judicial decisions, and when he couldn't, he found one who would bend to his will.  Yes there's a malevolence to that.  Sure he can swap ministers, doesn't mean the reasoning is ethical.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2019, 10:38:49 am
Peter Mackay should come out of retirement and lead the Tories to victory.

Yes, with David Orchard, MacKay showed far more ethics and honesty than the current PM  ::)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2019, 11:14:00 am
He wanted to undermine the independence of the the AG and insert Liberal election chances into judicial decisions, and when he couldn't, he found one who would bend to his will.  Yes there's a malevolence to that.  Sure he can swap ministers, doesn't mean the reasoning is ethical.

Except she didn't bend to his will and that is likely why she's not AG anymore.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 01, 2019, 11:45:49 am
Yes, with David Orchard, MacKay showed far more ethics and honesty than the current PM  ::)

Not familiar what you are taking about. Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 12:34:00 pm
No idea what you are taking about. Can you elaborate?

(https://i.imgur.com/EKI2r0P.jpg)(and who says complaining about thread drift... causes thread drift?)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 01, 2019, 12:51:37 pm
there is an ever growing sense/suspicion that JWR may herself be the anonymous source for the Robert Fife/G&M story that kicked all this off.

I am guessing her father was the anonymous source. I heard him talk about the situation a week or so ago, and then he wrapped it up by suggesting that the switch was a demotion because she would not be able to reap the same financial rewards as before. What a scoundrel.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 01, 2019, 12:56:20 pm
actually, the Liberal government brought forward the DPA legislation... that was passed into (criminal code) law. Nothing was hidden:
...

Yes, there was consultation beforehand, but putting it in an omnibus budget bill significantly lessens its chance for proper debate in Parliament. While Sheer and all Conservatives are hypocrites to suggest that, they are the worst offenders by an order of magnitude, I have been speaking out against this practice for a long time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 01:07:49 pm
I am guessing her father was the anonymous source. I heard him talk about the situation a week or so ago, and then he wrapped it up by suggesting that the switch was a demotion because she would not be able to reap the same financial rewards as before. What a scoundrel.

notwithstanding his long-standing FN activism... notwithstanding he's quite 'miffed' at the current pace/direction of reconciliation... notwithstanding his long-standing expressed 'concerns' with another father - Pierre!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2019, 01:17:06 pm
Yes, there was consultation beforehand, but putting it in an omnibus budget bill significantly lessens its chance for proper debate in Parliament. While Sheer and all Conservatives are hypocrites to suggest that, they are the worst offenders by an order of magnitude, I have been speaking out against this practice for a long time.

agreed - better outside a 'budget bill'. In any case, I won't bother to try to find JWR's testimony answer, instead paraphrasing from recall: JWR was asked why the DPA legislation ended up in the budget bill - she answered something along the lines of, "the Minister of Finance, the Finance Department, had close interest & engagement in the ultimate makeup of the DPA bill/legislation"... seems 'weak' but my comments were keyed more to the persistent claims that "it was hidden". As I said, that's countered somewhat in the face of the related most significant public consultations and the rigorous Senate Committee review. Notwithstanding, as I mentioned earlier, JWR's refusal to appear directly before the Senate Committee hearings!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 01, 2019, 01:34:06 pm
actually, the Liberal government brought forward the DPA legislation... that was passed into (criminal code) law. Nothing was hidden:

=> there were formal consultations leading up to the bill; consultations which drew 370 participants (370 Canadians, industry associations, businesses, non-governmental organizations and others participated.), and 75 written submissions - all public record.

=> members of the House had opportunity to scrutinize the DPA related provisions within the bill - note: the government of the day isn't responsible for doing the Opposition parties due diligence.

=> there was extensive review of the bill provisions at a Senate committee level - all public record

as an aside: during her recent testimony before the Justice Committee, JWR was asked several times for her personal view on remediation agreements (DPAs) - she refused to answer, advising that her personal view is irrelevant. A most curious/interesting response given: Wilson-Raybould snubbed Senate committee on corporate corruption bill (https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/02/17/news/wilson-raybould-snubbed-senate-committee-corporate-corruption-bill)


Provide the citations for the public record as to the debates  and  discussion as to  the clause added to the omnibus bill to add on the dpa the Liberals slipped in. Good luck. It does not exist. As for the alleged discussions you said took place, they were not about the Lavalin dpa. You also did not understand why JWR said her personal opinion about dpa's was not relevant. It has nothing to do with the issues at hand.

Look with due respect I am trying to take the time to explain the actual law and how it works exactly as JWR did and any lawyer will not to be a **** with you. Its hard to explain it in short black and white terms but you must believe me when I say  what JWR said is something all lawyers are obliged to know and understand and I will try explain it again making it clear that  JWR acted on behalf of not just the AG as she was supposed to  but as all lawyers are expected to do and  uphold both ethically and legally as she did. She is a classic role model for what we were taught to do or must do. She is an example of an ethical lawyer. They do exist.

Please let’s get it straight. It was on September 19th, 2018 the Criminal Code of Canada was  altered to allow for a specific deferred prosecution agreement buried in a clause allowing DPA’s in a last-minute addition to a 582-page Omnibus Budget Bill that was passed.  There was no debate on it.

In actual fact the Liberals did not discuss the DPA clause specific to Lavalin  but kept it secret because even the Liberal MP’s on the House of Commons justice committee studying the Omnibus Budget Bill said they were surprised and did not know about this clause. It is also a fact Liberal MP Greg Fergus said at the time when he became aware of the clause he was worried the change appeared to be designed to give those implicated in white-collar crimes “a little slap on the wrist”. He stated:
“It seems we’re letting those with the means have an easier time of it than those who don’t have the means,”.

In fact the discussion about dpa’s you refer to was not as to the dpa for Lavalin but dpa’s in general which is not the issue, please go  to:https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/differee-deferred-eng.html .

Also to be clear the issue at hand  is not the use of dpa’s but in fact using a dpa for Lavalin which is predicated on the belief that it should get favourable treatment. Dpa's can be of benefit of they in fact provide alternatives to traditional sentencing that serve the purposes of s.718 of the Criminal Code and do not undermine the criminal sentencing process by lending to the appearance of giving special lenient treatment which is what Lavalin asked for.

Public interest is NOT in the Lavalin case one and the same as favourable treatment for Lavalin when Lavalin commits a crime. That I would politely caution you  is not possible in law. Law does not consider criminals less criminal and entitled to less of a sentence because they might suffer financially and that in turn may cause people to lose jobs in Quebec which in turn would cause political fallout for Trudeau. No it is not in the public interest to protect criminals who employ people because if  that was the case any criminal who employs people who could cause those people a loss of jobs if they are sentenced, would be entitled to the same treatment as Lavalin. Imagine what that would do to the entire legal process. . It would undermine not only the entire criminal process but the need to protect people from criminals.

 If this Lavalin  dpa  is allowed we are to believe  the need for specific Quebecers employed by Lavalin to continue working for Lavalin is more important than upholding  social values that the need to prevent criminals including  Lavalin from committing crimes they did.

How could that possibly be in the public interest? Trudeau et al would have us suspend logic, common sense, and basic fundamental criminal laws and sentencing principles and purposes as well as ethics because it conflicts with his partisan Liberal political need to avoid negative fall out that could prevent him from being re-elected. No. That of course incorrect.

I also want to remind you this dpa would not only lighten the sentence but allow Lavalin to continue to be awarded contracts by our federal government. Why? Why are we protecting a company that engages in corruption and bribery with people like Ghaddafi? Has our legal system become so subservient to large corporations we  have a PM who relishes the role of serving as a step and fetch it for a criminal company?

Let’s be clear what this is all about. SNC-Lavalin is supposed to be under trial for fraud and corruption charges for its role in bribing Libyan officials under the Muammar Gaddafi regime as well as defrauding Libyan organizations in the amount of $130 million. If criminally convicted without the dpa for corruption, SNC-Lavalin would be barred from bidding on federal contracts for the next 10 years –  and it is this potentially loss of business which causes the fear by this current Liberal government that such a ban could cause SNC to lose jobs or move out of Quebec and thus the dpa to lessen the sentence.
 
So the dpa has nothing to do with a sentence proportionate to the crime which is the most basic and fundamental of sentencing principles in Canadian criminal law but introduces the concept that if a criminal is a corporation that is large and employs people that might lose their jobs, this allows that criminal special treatment. Its got nothing to do with the crime and protecting the public from the crime but everything to do with protecting the ruling government from potential negative political fallout if the proper sentence was upheld.

In fact SNC Lavalin began its non stop lobbying and over 80 meetings to influence the ruling government to issue a dpa starting in 2016. Most of the lobbying was done with includes  Finance Minister Bill (Fred Astaire) Morneau, Economic Development Minister Navdeep (Big Boy) Bains, Infrastructure Minister (Frankie) Francois-Philippe, as well as meetings with the PMO, specifically Gerald (Bumbum) Butts as well as other senior advisers (minions) to Justin Trudeau.

The new bill allows dpa’s as an option. It says a dpa can be considered instead of pursuing (continuing with a criminal court case). However and this is the crucial element to this dpa amendment, its not an automatic device that MUST be used. It still requires the Director of the Public Prosecution Service to decide whether it would be appropriate to use. Let’s also be clear. We don’t need dpa’s. A prosecutor already has the discretion to plea bargain or not pursue a case. They don’t need a dpa and never did. The problem is precisely what I said, if the prosecutor plea bargains, the final say as to the actual sentence rests with a Judge which Lavalin did not want.

Let us also be crystal clear, the Director of Public Prosecution on Oct.18, 2018 refused to negotiate a dpa with Lavalin saying it was NOT  in the public interest and when that news came out Lavalin stock value dropped 14% that same day. Since that time and as far back as 2015, Lavalin has ben lobbying the federal government not to prosecute it.

We also need to be clear, when the Director refused to implement a dpa for Lavalin on Oct.18 2018, Lavalin filed a judicial review challenging this rejection which is still before the court and has not been decided.

Since the firing of the AG for not agreeing to the dpa, her replacement has now said he may force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada. This kind of threat to influence and intimidate prosecutors who are supposed to be free of any political interference from elected officials has never been done before. In fact cases to date have made it clear you can not coerce a Crown prosecutor to do things based on concerns or interests unrelated to the crime itself.

This is such a disturbing development in legal terms, that yesterday 5 former Attorney Generals have filed a law suit against the current government and it should also be mentioned Lavalin is involved in a class action suit by its own shareholders who claim they were lied to by Lavalin about the corruption they engaged in and this dpa would necessarily if followed prejudice their case.

What government gets involved in a process where its Prime Minister applauds his own efforts in pressuring the AG and condoning the concept that a criminal should be able to get the government of the day to change the law directly related to its own case so it can get out of its sentence?

How the phack does any Liberal spinner on this thread not see that there is a conflict for the government of the day to allow itself to be pressured by a criminal to pass a law giving that criminal special treatment in its on-going prosecution?


How does a PM who has told China we uphold the rules of law which means the government of the day can not influence on-going criminal proceedings…do this? How does a PM who says believe a woman who says she is harassed now say, do not believe this woman when she says she was harassed, we didn't harass. The fact we kept calling and calling isn't harassment, its not influence peddling, its not coercion, its "normal". No it is not. No one in government is allowed to pressure a prosecutor to consider looking the other way. That is illegal. It could be obstruction of justice or influence peddling which are crimes. If nothing else its inappropriate. Its a clear conflict of interest. Most importantly how does doing something so unethical (allowing a criminal to lobby to get special treatment) become acceptable to Liberals because they try use this absurd argument they made it legal to be unethical?

What kind of logic is that?


Every lawyer in every province and territory of Canada knows that there is a centuries-old tradition that the attorney general's role as the government's chief prosecutor needs to be independent from their  position as a member of the executive branch at the cabinet table an so that it is improper for any other minister to attempt to influence the attorney general in their prosecutorial role.

Imagine what the Liberal spins on this forum would be saying if the Tories had done this and not Liberals. How selective is it for Liberals to now openly advocate for creating laws that allow large corporations to get special criminal treatment. Amazing how the righteousness of Liberals so easily turns to defending corruption and corrupt corporations  when it suits their need to get re-elected.

What two faced whores they are and it did not take long to see Trudeau for what he is a corporate step n fetch it boy.

Yassuh Mistuh Lavalin az a comin to carry yoh bagz massuh.

That sucking and blowing by Trudeau on Lavalin's titties and other parts must by now be painful.







Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 01, 2019, 02:48:11 pm
Provide the citations where the public record can be found as to the discussion on this road.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/documents/rapport-report-eng.pdf
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2019, 08:42:08 pm
That sucking and blowing by Trudeau on Lavalin's titties and other parts must by now be painful.

Line of the day!  :D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2019, 08:48:37 pm
Line of the day!  :D

Rue tends to get off reducing his comments to body parts trash. Scary stuff!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 02:51:04 am
Provide the citations for the public record

you mean... could I please provide - yes?

=> Public Consultation
background; consultation particulars:
- About the consultation: Expanding Canada's toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/sujet-about-eng.html#a7)

- {per member Impact} summary report: Expanding Canada’s toolkit to address corporate wrongdoing: What we heard (https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/rapport-report-eng.html)

=> Senate Review: Senate Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs - Bill C-74 Division 20 of Part 6 (note: non-related to DPA, Div. 15 also included in same meetings, process, review, etc..)
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/44ev-54092-e
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/45ev-54117-e
- https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/Sen/Committee/421/LCJC/45ev-54128-e
note: again, the Minister responsible for this related DPA legislation was JWR - Senators tried unsuccessfully to have JWR appear for input/questioning over the 2-week period allotted... resulting in a formal observation point that denotes Senators "displeasure" with JWR's (lack of) participation & response.

You also did not understand why JWR said her personal opinion about dpa's was not relevant. It has nothing to do with the issues at hand.

no - JWR's personal views on the DPA option are most relevant. As Minister of Justice, JWR was responsible for the related bill passages and implementation into the criminal code... notwithstanding, again, her inability/apparent unwillingness to provide input to and answer questions relevant to the related Senate review of the bill particulars. Knowing that personal view (as Minister of Justice), would offer perspective & insight into JWRs AJ positions taken for cases involving the possibility of remediation agreements. On the broader level this is germane to cabinet solidarity and support for the government's mandate and direction. Again, if a Minister is not in agreement with a government position and related legislation... does not support it... political convention holds the Minister should resign.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 03:28:19 am
In fact the discussion about dpa’s you refer to was not as to the dpa for Lavalin but dpa’s in general which is not the issue, please go  to:https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ci-if/ar-cw/differee-deferred-eng.html .

Also to be clear the issue at hand  is not the use of dpa’s but in fact using a dpa for Lavalin which is predicated on the belief that it should get favourable treatment. Dpa's can be of benefit of they in fact provide alternatives to traditional sentencing that serve the purposes of s.718 of the Criminal Code and do not undermine the criminal sentencing process by lending to the appearance of giving special lenient treatment which is what Lavalin asked for.

no - (my) references to public consultations and Senate Committee review were, quite obviously, speaking to DPAs in general and review of the related bill provisions... again, quite obviously, nothing to do with any potential case application (vis-a-vis, SNC-Lavalin). But WTF, previously in your post you asked me for a citation to the related public consultations... and you just offer up one yourself! Geezaz man, get it together!!!

general discussion (references) related to DPAs were provided in regards your claim "it was all hidden". On the broader level, you appear to have an unfortunate biased understanding of DPAs, how they can/should be used, their benefits, etc.. They do not, as you imply broadly, undermine the criminal code in lieu of "lenient treatment" (your words); rather, they are a prosecutorial tool option to defer prosecution, alternatively finding, "effective, proportionate and dissuasive penalties and to assist in meeting other objectives, including increasing detection and improving compliance and corporate culture".
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 03:55:54 am
We don’t need dpa’s. A prosecutor already has the discretion to plea bargain or not pursue a case.

hey now! C'mon Rue... are you channeling JWR here - you know, the view some hold that JWR is against DPAs on principal. If only she would speak directly on this point, hey!   

Let us also be crystal clear, the Director of Public Prosecution on Oct.18, 2018 refused to negotiate a dpa with Lavalin saying it was NOT  in the public interest and when that news came out Lavalin stock value dropped 14% that same day. Since that time and as far back as 2015, Lavalin has ben lobbying the federal government not to prosecute it.

We also need to be clear, when the Director refused to implement a dpa for Lavalin on Oct.18 2018, Lavalin filed a judicial review challenging this rejection which is still before the court and has not been decided.

your (first) timing reference is significantly off (https://ipolitics.ca/2019/02/20/the-snc-lavalin-pmo-controversy-a-timeline/): see Sept. 4, 2018 - According to federal court records, director of public prosecutions Kathleen Roussel informs SNC-Lavalin that “that she intended to proceed with a prosecution on bribery and fraud charges

instead of your second timing reference, instead: see Oct. 19, 2018 - SNC-Lavalin formally files a notice of an application for judicial review at federal court, which will attempt to overturn the decision by the director of public prosecutions to reject a remediation agreement.

your turn to cite - please: you emphasize the Director of PPSC (Kathleen Rousell) states, "it {DPA} was not in the public interest". - citation request
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 04:16:32 am
Since the firing of the AG for not agreeing to the dpa, her replacement has now said he may force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada. This kind of threat to influence and intimidate prosecutors who are supposed to be free of any political interference from elected officials has never been done before. In fact cases to date have made it clear you can not coerce a Crown prosecutor to do things based on concerns or interests unrelated to the crime itself.

This is such a disturbing development in legal terms, that yesterday 5 former Attorney Generals have filed a law suit against the current government...

yes, as I noted earlier:
Quote
New federal Attorney-General David Lametti says it is still possible he could issue a directive to the prosecution service to settle corruption charges against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. out of court.

“There is a specific set of rules that would allow the Attorney-General to direct a public process, in a transparent process, through the Canada Gazette,” he told CTV’s Question Period on Sunday. “That remains a possibility. But I’m not going to comment on the possibility of that now because that case is before the courts.”

AJ Lametti was speaking broadly to a possibility... a possibility he would not comment on given the case is before the courts. Accordingly, please cite support for your statement, "said he may force prosecutors to negotiate a DPA with SNC-Lavalin, despite protests from the Director of Public Prosecution Service in Canada". More pointedly, AJ Lametti speaks to a specific set of applicable rules to support such a possibility; accordingly, please cite support your statement, "This is such a disturbing development in legal terms, that yesterday 5 former Attorney Generals have filed a law suit against the current government..."
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 04:25:41 am
That sucking and blowing...

is your typical bloviating that makes many refuse to read your posts in their entirety... which, sans bloviating, occasionally warrant debate worthy reply comment.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 02, 2019, 09:34:15 am
is your typical bloviating that makes many refuse to read your posts in their entirety... which, sans bloviating, occasionally warrant debate worthy reply comment.

Pot, meet kettle.....
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 10:45:37 am
But it isn't really one - a department with a huge workforce and a $4B per year budget is hardly a menial task.

Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.  Minister of Justice is among the most prestigious postings in Cabinet. Only Finance and maybe Defense and Foreign Affairs are comparable. People like Pierre Trudeau, John Turner, Jean Chretien, Kim Campbell were Justice minister before becoming Prime Minister.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 11:10:19 am
That's nonsense.  The cabinet serves at the PMs pleasure.

The idea that the Attorney General is to be independent of political influence and the idea that the PM can fire and replace the Attorney General at any time he wishes are completely at odds with each other.   It's the same reason that politicians can't directly fire judges. It's the reason that university professors receive tenure.   If you're supposed to be independent from politics but the politicians can fire you at any time they want, then you're not really independent from politics.

Having policy discussions with the Justice Minister is something that members of cabinet would of course do all the time. But discussing the SNC-Lavalin prosecution wasn't a policy discussion, it was a legal matter. So they weren't talking to the Justice Minister, they were talking to the Attorney General during those conversations. And the ethics of trying to influence the Attorney General regarding an ongoing legal matter should be obvious to everyone.

Right - the onus is on the AG not to bow to pressure.

And clearly she didn't. Which leads to...

Except she didn't bend to his will and that is likely why she's not AG anymore.

Exactly.

Right now there's a strong appearance that the Prime Minister fired the Attorney General for not doing what he wanted, and appointed a new Attorney General who would do what he wanted.

The potential for political interference in the administration of justice is something that western democracies strive to avoid. It's one of the basic tenets of our system of government.  See ongoing events south of the border for more examples of why justice and prosecution need to be at arms length from politicians.

JWR mentioned that the Minister of Justice and AG might need to be separate roles by different people to better maintain its political independence.  Maybe Parliament should study that as she suggested.

That should be the lasting outcome from this affair.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 11:17:44 am
The idea that the Attorney General is to be independent of political influence and the idea that the PM can fire and replace the Attorney General at any time he wishes are completely at odds with each other.   It's the same reason that politicians can't directly fire judges. It's the reason that university professors receive tenure.   If you're supposed to be independent from politics but the politicians can fire you at any time they want, then you're not really independent from politics.

And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

Quote
Having policy discussions with the Justice Minister is something that members of cabinet would of course do all the time. But discussing the SNC-Lavalin prosecution wasn't a policy discussion, it was a legal matter. So they weren't talking to the Justice Minister, they were talking to the Attorney General during those conversations. And the ethics of trying to influence the Attorney General regarding an ongoing legal matter should be obvious to everyone.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 11:19:12 am
Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.

Well, seeing the way she handled being given two portfolios (Veterans Affairs and Minister of Defence #2) vs how MacAuley handled it shows that she deserved the demotion.  I've come to realize she's entitled and lacks any amount of humility. 

And that by the way is as common an opinion (from what I've seen anyway) as the popular opinion that she's a saint, being put down by the bully Trudeau.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 11:23:31 am
This is how you handle being given the chance to serve our veterans:

https://twitter.com/L_MacAulay/status/1101528427583234048

It is a great honour for me to return to a role that I cherished so much when I had the great fortune to serve as Secretary of State for Veterans Affairs. There is no greater honour in Canadian public life than serving the veterans of this country who made Canada what it is today

---

I want our veterans know that I’m ready to get to work, that my door is always open, and that it is one of the greatest honours in our country’s public life to serve Canadian veterans at the Cabinet table.

---

I know that Minister @mclaudebibeau truly cares about farmers and agriculture and you will be extremely well-served with her leadership.

---

I also want to sincerely thank the Prime Minister for the opportunity to serve as Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food these past three years and for his continued faith and support in extending the opportunity to serve our veterans.

__________________________

That's class, dignity, and humility.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:31:43 am
Trying to spin it as anything other than a demotion is silly.

you have repeatedly stated JWR was 'fired' - no one was fired; please reconsider your inappropriate wording. If one were to accept your premise that the cabinet shuffle was a demotion, do you agree with and accept it as the rationale for JWR choosing to resign - if not, why not?

cabinet shuffles are common through the passage of time in any government; I can't recall and/or find examples of government shuffles that brought a 'shuffled' Minister to resign - can you?

more pointedly, since you choose from day one to advocate on JWR's behalf, please advise what would warrant keeping JWR in that position as Justice Minister/AJ... please base your findings on her body of work accomplishments factoring the significant criticisms she has taken in regards legislation she has worked to create/pass, her working & personal relationships with others, and most significantly an evaluation of the formalized mandate she was given as said Minister. Thanks in advance... looking forward to you being able to substantiate your continued advocacy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 11:34:37 am
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

The DPP made her decision.   They wanted the AG to overrule the DPP for political reasons.  I'm astounded that you don't see why this is a bad precedent to set.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

"outside the law" and outside the realm of ethical behavior are two different things.

Justin Trudeau and Mathieu Bourchard both referenced the upcoming election in telling her why they needed her to interfere in the SNC-Lavalin case. That should be a huge red flag for you.  That is a red flag so big it's visible from space. Why can't you see it?

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:34:51 am
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

succinct and most accurate! JWR herself advised there were NO illegalities... advised that she was NOT directed to change her decision.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:46:17 am
Justin Trudeau and Mathieu Bourchard both referenced the upcoming election in telling her why they needed her to interfere in the SNC-Lavalin case. That should be a huge red flag for you. That is a red flag so big it's visible from space. Why can't you see it?

the reference was in regards the Quebec election - get it right, hey! And the comment, as stated in context, was in regards a concern for jobs and the viability of the company - a comment made, as he openly stated, in his capacity as a Quebec MP in Papineau. Which he followed up by advising JWR that he was not politically interfering in her role.. aligning with the many times expressed statements that the decision was JWRs to make.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:53:14 am
This is how you handle being given the chance to serve our veterans:

https://twitter.com/L_MacAulay/status/1101528427583234048

That's class, dignity, and humility.

yes - most certainly... its unfortunate that JWR has given the impression she is "above" working to support Canada's veterans (notwithstanding her dual portfolio role as Associate Minister of National Defence).

(https://i.imgur.com/rwo8eHY.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 12:00:52 pm
"outside the law" and outside the realm of ethical behavior are two different things.

I suggest you need to be shuffled from your current role as Ethics Commissionaire for Canadian Political Events... how did you get that job in the first place? Speaking of which, do you believe JWR's 4 years as a junior prosecutor dealing with low-level drug crimes warrants being given the job as Canada's Justice Minister/AJ? Might there have been another reason(s) behind that assignment?  ;D Say it ain't so JT... say it ain't so!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 12:11:37 pm
you have repeatedly stated JWR was 'fired' - no one was fired; please reconsider your inappropriate wording. If one were to accept your premise that the cabinet shuffle was a demotion, do you agree with and accept it as the rationale for JWR choosing to resign - if not, why not?

cabinet shuffles are common through the passage of time in any government; I can't recall and/or find examples of government shuffles that brought a 'shuffled' Minister to resign - can you?

That's not the rationale she gave for stepping down from cabinet. She accepted the new posting to Veteran's Affairs, and held it for a month. She resigned only later, after Trudeau claimed that "her presence in Cabinet should speak for itself."

more pointedly, since you choose from day one to advocate on JWR's behalf, please advise what would warrant keeping JWR in that position as Justice Minister/AJ... please base your findings on her body of work accomplishments factoring the significant criticisms she has taken in regards legislation she has worked to create/pass, her working & personal relationships with others, and most significantly an evaluation of the formalized mandate she was given as said Minister. Thanks in advance... looking forward to you being able to substantiate your continued advocacy.

My concern here isn't to advocate on behalf of JWR.  I'm not a lawyer and am not in position to argue the merits of the major pieces of legislation that marked her time as justice minister.  I do find it interesting that all of these op-eds complaining about her signature legislation only appeared after the SNC-Lavalin affair became public. Perhaps Katie Telford "lined up all kinds of people to write op-eds" as she suggested she could do.

My concern here-- and I'm baffled that you and JMT aren't concerned-- is that the PMO spent 4 months trying to interfere in an ongoing legal issue for political reasons, and when the AG wouldn't comply, they found a new AG who'd do their bidding. That's concerning. That's banana republic shenanigans. That's Trump level shenanigans.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 12:13:56 pm
The DPP made her decision.   They wanted the AG to overrule the DPP for political reasons.

A thing that is completely legal under Canadian law.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 12:14:12 pm
yes - most certainly... its unfortunate that JWR has given the impression she is "above" working to support Canada's veterans (notwithstanding her dual portfolio role as Associate Minister of National Defence).

Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 12:15:08 pm
A thing that is completely legal under Canadian law.

Refer to earlier comments regarding "legal" vs "unethical".

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 12:32:51 pm
Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

 -k

How about the giant letter she wrote (which no one asked for) patting herself on the back for what she did as MoJ/AG?  What was the point of that?  It was unprecedented in Canadian history.  How about the fact that her dad immediately took the airwaves to talk about her 'demotion'?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 12:33:19 pm
Refer to earlier comments regarding "legal" vs "unethical".

 -k

We have a procedure for the political class to direct the DPP for a reason, I'd assume.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 02, 2019, 12:53:33 pm
How about the giant letter she wrote (which no one asked for) patting herself on the back for what she did as MoJ/AG?  What was the point of that?  It was unprecedented in Canadian history.  How about the fact that her dad immediately took the airwaves to talk about her 'demotion'?

I'll take that as a no.

We have a procedure for the political class to direct the DPP for a reason, I'd assume.

The Public Prosecutor Service that everybody keeps saying is supposed to be independent?  You'd assume wrong.

We have a political class to shape the laws, not to direct the prosecution. 

Quote
The principle of the independence of the Attorney General is firmly entrenched in our legal system, widely respected, and carefully safeguarded. Perhaps less well understood is the operation of the independence principle in the day-to-day decision-making of individual Crown counsel. Crown counselFootnote 1 exercise their independence as the representative of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). As such, their "“independence”" is a delegated independence. This independence is institutional, rather than personal, and is aimed at safeguarding the independence of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC). Crown counsel are obliged to make decisions in accordance with the directives of the Attorney General and the guidelines of the DPP,Footnote 2 and they act under the direction of Chief Federal Prosecutors (CFP), who are in turn responsible to the DPP and his or her Deputy DPPs.Footnote 3 That said, Crown counsel also retain a degree of discretion in individual cases.Footnote 4

https://www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca/eng/pub/fpsd-sfpg/fps-sfp/tpd/p2/ch01.html


We can't have politicians telling crown prosecutors what to do. Break that wall and there's an endless potential for wrongdoing. It's one of the key things that separates us from a banana republic.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 02, 2019, 12:55:35 pm
They weren't pressuring her to do anything outside of the law.  She was being stubborn.  It's that simple.

Stubborn?  The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

Who was being stubborn? 

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:06:23 pm
That's not the rationale she gave for stepping down from cabinet. She accepted the new posting to Veteran's Affairs, and held it for a month. She resigned only later, after Trudeau claimed that "her presence in Cabinet should speak for itself."

I've not seen/heard her express 'rationale' for resigning... not in her public released letter of resignation; not throughout her testimony before the Justice Committee. You say, 'she gave a rationale' - please, if you're able, provide citation support to that end... thanks in advance.

as for the actual JT statement; it was: "I respect her view that, due to privilege, she can't comment or add on matters recently before the media. I also highlight that we're bound by cabinet confidentiality. In our system of governance, her presence in cabinet should speak for itself," Trudeau said. "I continue to have full confidence in Jody." Subsequently, of course, privilege & matters of cabinet confidentiality (as regards the point to her cabinet shuffle) were waived to allow, as she expressed it, "her truth to be told". Ahem - apparently 'her truth' versus 'alternate truths'!

My concern here isn't to advocate on behalf of JWR.  I'm not a lawyer and am not in position to argue the merits of the major pieces of legislation that marked her time as justice minister.

and yet you have no qualms in repeatedly speaking to a "demotion". As you now openly state, you're not factoring anything else into why she might have been moved to other roles; you're not factoring the merits of her job performance and, I expect, you're not factoring her working relationships and the expressions of her work colleagues that speak to her as 'difficult', 'not-open', 'inflexible', etc.. Nor, I expect, are you factoring her formalized mandate... if you're not aware, all Ministers received mandates in terms of expected work/accomplishments they were to meet - a mandate she most certainly came no where close to meeting.

My concern here-- and I'm baffled that you and JMT aren't concerned-- is that the PMO spent 4 months trying to interfere in an ongoing legal issue for political reasons, and when the AG wouldn't comply, they found a new AG who'd do their bidding. That's concerning. That's banana republic shenanigans. That's Trump level shenanigans.

I'll repeat the same point I've made to you previously (I believe this is now the 3rd time I'm stating it): the DPPSC decision was one that, in itself, over-ruled that of the lead-prosecutor. More pointedly, until court proceedings commence, that decision is not binding and is open to change. You prefer to speak to "interference for political reasons" - versus initiatives to bring new information, new contextual analysis, new factors/influences, etc, forward to bring consideration towards reevaluating the initial decision. Essentially, as I've also previously stated to you, your want is to keep steadfast to a decision that, many suggest, is not in the public interest - not in the public interest when 9000 Canadian jobs might be in jeopardy, when the company might move its base of operations to another country, when the actual viability of the company itself could be at risk (particularly in regards a weakened position subject to takeover).
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 01:06:39 pm
Stubborn?  The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

Who was being stubborn? 

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?

The AG is a political office.  It wasn’t just the PMO but 11 officials from multiple departments.  Her former colleagues from her time in BC have said she’s impossible to deal with.  The DPA was a sound legal solution and she made a decision that left her in a position to not make any more such decisions.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 02, 2019, 01:07:13 pm
And the AG isn't - it's silly that we try to pretend that they are.  That's what the DPP is for.

The DPP isn't, if an AG acting on partisan calculations of the PM can override them.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:10:53 pm
Can you or JMT provide a single cite of her ever saying anything uncomplimentary about either veterans or the Veterans Affairs portfolio during her month as minister?

her resignation, sans expressed rationale, speaks volumes on how she viewed the portfolio... viewed her reassignment to support Canada's veterans/National Defence. Again, as I stated in my preceding reply to you: "You say, 'she gave a rationale' - please, if you're able, provide citation support to that end... thanks in advance."
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:20:35 pm
We can't have politicians telling crown prosecutors what to do. Break that wall and there's an endless potential for wrongdoing. It's one of the key things that separates us from a banana republic.

you're speaking a lot to an absence of (interpreted) "independence"; accordingly, please provide citation support to your implied statement that PPSC/DPPSC were "told". This tact you're using here is quite similar to your past oft expressed (unsubstantiated) claims of "undue pressure" put upon JWR.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 02, 2019, 01:25:47 pm
I'm still waiting to find out the anonymous source(s) who spoke to the G&M in the first place which generated their original story. Seems to be a focus on JWR's dad.   
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:43:44 pm
The PM/PMO etc gave their input, she took it, and made a legal decision on the basis of justice, not on the basis of partisan politics and electoral outcomes.  The PM would not accept her decision, and unleashed his minions on her continually.

great - you appear to have a missing piece! Many have noted an absence of the legal foundation JWR used to support her unwillingness to act to have the DPPSC re-evaluated. Please provide, as you say, "the basis of justice her decision relied upon"... one you call her "legal decision". Thanks in advance - waiting.......

Do you support the AG to act independently based on what they conclude is proper justice, or do you support the AG to act in accordance to the will of the PM based on partisan electoral calculations and the lobbying efforts of a large corrupt corporation whose employees have donated generous sums to the PM's party?

do you support a Justice Minister/AJ that refuses to meet with Senators/Senate Committee to review the related bill passages/concept of DPA legislation? Do you support a Justice Minister/AJ who refuses to, when questioned, provide her personal views on remediation agreements?

why use the long-past actions of a small number of select executives (now long gone from the company) against the current company/employees?

per Elections Canada I'm aware of improper political contributions that resulted in charges against a single SNC-Lavalin executive who orchestrated illegal political donations paid to federal political parties between 2004 and 2011 - charges related to related soliciting employees to make political contributions and concealing their identities..... to the tune of $117K. Charges against one executive, not the company proper. An accounting of what you describe as "generous sums" contributed by employees between 2004-2011:
=> $83,534.51 to the Liberal Party of Canada; $13,552.13 to various Liberal riding associations; $12,529.12 to four contestants in the 2006 Liberal leadership race, including $5,000 each to Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae;
=> $3,137.73 to the Conservative Party of Canada; and $5,050 to various Conservative riding associations.

note: said "generous amounts" were repaid by the respective parties... repaid to the Federal Treasury. Do you have additional information to add more monies to this "generous amount" tally? Please advise - thanks.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 02, 2019, 01:44:40 pm
I'm still waiting to find out the anonymous source(s) who spoke to the G&M in the first place which generated their original story. Seems to be a focus on JWR's dad.

You want to shoot the messenger?   Whoever it was shed light on political interference into a criminal prosecution.   Give them a medal.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:47:55 pm
The DPP isn't, if an AG acting on partisan calculations of the PM can override them.

if an AJ directive to reevaluate the initial decision were to be made, by law that directive must be supported/explained, transparently, through the 'Canada Gazette' - your claimed "partisan calculations" would be revealed. Are you sure you wouldn't like a do-over for your statement?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 02, 2019, 01:49:47 pm
This is how you handle being given the chance to serve our veterans:

This government puts veterans at a low priority.  They just barely give a crap. The 2018 budget is 367 pages.  90+ pages are dedicated to women/gender issues, another 20+ pages for indigenous reconciliation.  They have only 3 pages dedicated to veterans issues.

To compare, they have 2 pages dedicated to reducing tobacco smoking.  Add 2 more pages to cannabis issues, and this gov has more space dedicated to crap you suck in your lungs than to veterans issues. Oh, and of course tobacco/cannabis is featured earlier in budget pages than veterans, to add to the insult.

I can picture it now, Justin and Butts sitting around campus getting high together while dreaming of legal pot while saving women and indigenous folks.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 02, 2019, 01:56:31 pm
if an AJ directive to reevaluate the initial decision were to be made, by law that directive must be supported/explained, transparently, through the 'Canada Gazette' - your claimed "partisan calculations" would be revealed. Are you sure you wouldn't like a do-over for your statement?

I'm sure JWR or any AG would have written "The reasons for the deferral include lost jobs, a willingness for the federal and provincial Liberals not to lose upcoming elections, and sustained lobbying efforts by the accused corporation whose officials have donated large sums of funding to the Liberal Party."

So no I don't want a "do-over".
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:56:47 pm
You want to shoot the messenger?   Whoever it was shed light on political interference into a criminal prosecution.   Give them a medal.

because you 'support the message' - her expressed "truth"? Your expressed "interference" is interpreted on your part and the part of others seeking partisan gain; JWR advises she was never directed. Note: said "criminal prosecution" (as you say)... wasn't... rather, prosecution hadn't/hasn't yet commenced. More pointedly, the PPSC/DPPSC were not approached/communicated with.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 01:59:23 pm
I can picture it now, Justin and Butts sitting around campus getting high together while dreaming of legal pot while saving women and indigenous folks.

yours is an ignorant/stupid comment; notwithstanding (if one accepts your count) budgetary value/worth/interest... based upon, "the number of pages"!  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 02, 2019, 01:59:31 pm
You want to shoot the messenger?   Whoever it was shed light on political interference into a criminal prosecution.   Give them a medal.

Sorry, not quite that gullible. Need to know more about the messenger first.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 02:14:46 pm
I'm sure JWR or any AG would have written "The reasons for the deferral include lost jobs, a willingness for the federal and provincial Liberals not to lose upcoming elections, and sustained lobbying efforts by the accused corporation whose officials have donated large sums of funding to the Liberal Party."

So no I don't want a "do-over".

but... JWR has not written anything... or rather, as I understand/read, has not presented a written explanation to support her position. You're apparently attempting to deflect from my pointed request to you; particularly when you seemed so sure of yourself, here, try again:
great - you appear to have a missing piece! Many have noted an absence of the legal foundation JWR used to support her unwillingness to act to have the DPPSC re-evaluated. Please provide, as you say, "the basis of justice her decision relied upon"... one you call her "legal decision". Thanks in advance - waiting.......

and you come back again with the same/like unsupported claim/statement where you now say: "the accused corporation whose officials have donated large sums of funding to the Liberal Party."

I provided an Elections Canada accounting of improper contributions... what you called a "generous amount". Again, one company executive was charged for his personal actions to solicit individual employees to make political contributions - a total of 117K over 8 years (2004-2011)... contributions made to both the Liberal & Conservative parties, individual politicians and individual riding associations. I asked you if you have additional information beyond what I provided. Apparently you do not since you simply choose to repeat your unsubstantiated statement/claim.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 03:39:48 pm
This government puts veterans at a low priority. 

Yes, that's why they've increased the VAC budget by over a billion dollars in the last two fiscal years.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 03:44:41 pm
It seems that JWR was unwilling to answer at committee or before the senate when she was AG whether or not she even supported the existence of DPAs - if she was in contradiction with legal government policy and was unwilling to implement it, it was incumbent on her to resign.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 02, 2019, 04:03:03 pm
It seems that JWR was unwilling to answer at committee or before the senate when she was AG whether or not she even supported the existence of DPAs - if she was in contradiction with legal government policy and was unwilling to implement it, it was incumbent on her to resign.
This argument makes zero sense:

1) No company is automatically entitled to DPA and the are good reasons why SNC does not qualify;
2) Telling a prosecutor that they can't proceed with criminal charges completely undermines the value of a DPA because the company has no incentive to negotiate anything;

IOW, she was implementing the law, as it is written, and was doing her job by refusing to interfere. Why on earth would she need to resign?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 02, 2019, 04:11:02 pm
This argument makes zero sense:

1) No company is automatically entitled to DPA and the are good reasons why SNC does not qualify;
2) Telling a prosecutor that they can't proceed with criminal charges completely undermines the value of a DPA because the company has no incentive to negotiate anything;

Considering that's not what I argued, I'd have to agree - that makes zero sense.  JWR was unwilling to testify to whether she'd EVER support the use of DPAs as AG either before the committee or before the Senate when she was still AG.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 02, 2019, 04:33:13 pm
This argument makes zero sense:

1) No company is automatically entitled to DPA and the are good reasons why SNC does not qualify;
2) Telling a prosecutor that they can't proceed with criminal charges completely undermines the value of a DPA because the company has no incentive to negotiate anything;

IOW, she was implementing the law, as it is written, and was doing her job by refusing to interfere. Why on earth would she need to resign?

The main purpose of a DPA is to protect jobs and therefore SNC certainly does qualify. It is also to punish a corp. which has been found cheating without putting them out of business, so yes there is incentive for negotiation.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 02, 2019, 04:47:36 pm
The main purpose of a DPA is to protect jobs and therefore SNC certainly does qualify. It is also to punish a corp. which has been found cheating without putting them out of business, so yes there is incentive for negotiation.
Then why does the law *explicitly state* that "national economic interest" must *not* be considered?

Quote
Factors not to consider

(3) Despite paragraph (2)(i), if the organization is alleged to have committed an offence under section 3 or 4 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, the prosecutor must not consider the national economic interest, the potential effect on relations with a state other than Canada or the identity of the organization or individual involved.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html


More importantly, if a corporation knows it will not be charged because it has bribedpersuaded a sufficient number of Liberal party officials to overrule the prosecutor then it has no incentive to accept anything other than the minimum needed to comply with the law. i.e. proverbial slap on the wrist.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 02, 2019, 04:57:46 pm
Then why does the law *explicitly state* that "national economic interest" must *not* be considered?
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html

In order for the prosecutor to enter into negotiations for a remediation agreement, the following conditions must be met:

    There is a reasonable prospect of conviction with respect to the offence;
    The impugned conduct did not cause serious bodily harm or death or injury to national defence or national security, and was not committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with, a criminal organization or terrorist group;
    Negotiating the agreement must be in the public interest and appropriate in the circumstances; and
    The Attorney General must consent to the negotiation of the agreement.


https://www.osler.com/en/blogs/risk/september-2018/deferred-prosecution-agreements-dpas-come-into-force-in-canada
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 02, 2019, 08:04:04 pm
In order for the prosecutor to enter into negotiations for a remediation agreement, the following conditions must be met:

    There is a reasonable prospect of conviction with respect to the offence;
    The impugned conduct did not cause serious bodily harm or death or injury to national defence or national security, and was not committed for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with, a criminal organization or terrorist group;
    Negotiating the agreement must be in the public interest and appropriate in the circumstances; and
    The Attorney General must consent to the negotiation of the agreement.


https://www.osler.com/en/blogs/risk/september-2018/deferred-prosecution-agreements-dpas-come-into-force-in-canada

Irrelevant to TimG’s point...   political interference is not allowed by law.

A judge should decide on the legality, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 02, 2019, 08:06:33 pm
Then why does the law *explicitly state* that "national economic interest" must *not* be considered?

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html

If JWR had followed the agenda of the PMO and considered "national economic interest" for this particular DPA (SNC-L &/or headquarters may leave Canada if blocked for 10 yrs from gov contracts), then wouldn't she have been doing something unlawful?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 02, 2019, 09:27:31 pm
If JWR had followed the agenda of the PMO and considered "national economic interest" for this particular DPA (SNC-L &/or headquarters may leave Canada if blocked for 10 yrs from gov contracts), then wouldn't she have been doing something unlawful?
One would assume so but the law is contradictory since one could argue the DPA was to "to reduce the negative consequences of the wrongdoing for persons — employees, customers, pensioners and others — who did not engage in the wrongdoing" rather than the "national interest". But of course, the arguments given to JWR were entirely driven from a desire to get votes for the Liberal party.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 02, 2019, 09:36:05 pm
yours is an ignorant/stupid comment; notwithstanding (if one accepts your count) budgetary value/worth/interest... based upon, "the number of pages"!  ;D

Do not ever conclude the Waldo is a great debater, and know how to win friends and influence people.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:24:40 pm
Do not ever conclude the Waldo is a great debater, and know how to win friends and influence people.

I take no solace in continually burning you - you're an easy mark!

protip: rather than spending all your time following me around, extend yourself a bit - try to actually post something related to the thread topic.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2019, 11:32:53 pm
Irrelevant to TimG’s point...   political interference is not allowed by law.

A judge should decide on the legality, in my opinion.

wait, what? I thought the chief law officer for the Crown... and the chief federal legal adviser... stated there were NO illegalities. Who are they... er, who is it - hey?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 02, 2019, 11:59:24 pm
wait, what? I thought the chief law officer for the Crown... and the chief federal legal adviser... stated there were NO illegalities. Who are they... er, who is it - hey?

Yep, if you listened to her testimony you quite clearly heard her respond there was nothing illegal with regard to any pressure which may have been placed upon her as far as the NSC/L case.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 12:28:24 am
Then why does the law *explicitly state* that "national economic interest" must *not* be considered? https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html

depending on the company, would you accept that efforts to attempt to protect jobs across Canada, to attempt to ensure the viability of the company, to attempt to keep the company based in Canada, etc.,... that all those efforts could be considered actions/pursuits undertaken in the public interest - and that considering to entertain a DPA negotiation with that company could be construed as, similarly, in the public interest? If not, why not?

More importantly, if a corporation knows it will not be charged because it has bribedpersuaded a sufficient number of Liberal party officials to overrule the prosecutor then it has no incentive to accept anything other than the minimum needed to comply with the law. i.e. proverbial slap on the wrist.

good on ya for self-correcting your improper use of the word bribed. Since you've targeted the Liberal party in your post, please allow me to assume you're referring to SNC-Lavalin as your implied "persuader". What do you envision constitutes the nature of your implied "persuasion"?

notwithstanding DPAs have a principal aim to allow companies to self-disclose their "wrong doings" (that may never be known without self-disclosure), for those company's 'caught' before self-disclosure, sufficient equivalencies to extend beyond your described "minimums" are needed. As I read/interpret, practical extensions beyond minimal statutory requirements have been formalized in both U.S. & UK deployments of DPA legislation - no biggee/SOP! As I interpret, pre-and-post remediation efforts undertaken by companies, upon evaluation, might qualify as mitigating circumstance in determining "sentencing". Of course, for some reason you seem to overlook the fact negotiated DPAs are subject to judicial review and court authorization... you did know that, right?

speaking of SNC-Lavalin, as I've noted previously, the company has undertaken significant efforts towards remediation. You may choose to accept/respect the following SNC-Lavalin authored summary - or not; note: this is an extract from a formal SNC-Lavalin response to their notification a DPA would not be considered. Perhaps you might choose to offer your personal interpretation and evaluation of the following - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/riDKxqa.png)

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 11:10:13 am
I'm sure JWR or any AG would have written "The reasons for the deferral include lost jobs, a willingness for the federal and provincial Liberals not to lose upcoming elections, and sustained lobbying efforts by the accused corporation whose officials have donated large sums of funding to the Liberal Party."

So no I don't want a "do-over".

No speculation about donations (or kickbacks or the contents of peoples' stock portfolios or anything else) is necessary.  The motive is obvious, and JWR told us what it was on Wednesday.  She stated in her testimony that both PM Trudeau and PMO Quebec strategist Mathieu Bouchard told her that the needed her to drop the prosecution of SNC-Lavalin due to political considerations in Quebec.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 11:18:56 am
It seems that JWR was unwilling to answer at committee or before the senate when she was AG whether or not she even supported the existence of DPAs - if she was in contradiction with legal government policy and was unwilling to implement it, it was incumbent on her to resign.

She declined to answer that question because it was irrelevant.

Her opinion of the deferred prosecution agreement legislation in general isn't at issue.  At issue is her refusal to interfere in a specific criminal case. 

You still don't actually get why crown prosecution is supposed to be arms length from political direction, do you.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 11:46:40 am
I've not seen/heard her express 'rationale' for resigning... not in her public released letter of resignation; not throughout her testimony before the Justice Committee. You say, 'she gave a rationale' - please, if you're able, provide citation support to that end... thanks in advance.

From her testimony:
Quote
Randy Boissonnault, the Liberal MP who earlier this month accused opposition parties of being on a witch hunt, asks Wilson-Raybould if she has confidence in the PM. She replies she resigned cabinet "because I did not have confidence to sit around the cabinet table."

https://twitter.com/stevenchase/status/1100892073937514497


and yet you have no qualms in repeatedly speaking to a "demotion". As you now openly state, you're not factoring anything else into why she might have been moved to other roles; you're not factoring the merits of her job performance and, I expect, you're not factoring her working relationships and the expressions of her work colleagues that speak to her as 'difficult', 'not-open', 'inflexible', etc.. Nor, I expect, are you factoring her formalized mandate... if you're not aware, all Ministers received mandates in terms of expected work/accomplishments they were to meet - a mandate she most certainly came no where close to meeting.

This laundry list of reasons-- anonymous whispers about her personality, alleged dissatisfaction with her work, "hey, maybe it's because she doesn't speak French", "she'd still be Justice minister if Scott Brison hadn't resigned," etc-- have the air of post-hoc rationalizing, or butt-covering.

At this point only those who are drowning in the party Kool-Aid would believe that the SNC-Lavalin situation wasn't the reason she got removed as AG.
Quote
The next day, she had a phone call with Wernick. “The Clerk said that the PM is quite determined, quite firm, he wants to know why the (deferred prosecution) route which Parliament provided for isn’t being used,” Wilson-Raybould said. “He said ‘I think he is gonna find a way to get it done one way or another. So, he is in that kinda mood and I wanted you to be aware of that.’”
Clearly he found a way. (https://montrealgazette.com/news/politics/jody-wilson-raybould-testimony-justin-trudeau-pmo/wcm/80fddacc-68d5-4bf6-b8d8-9418a5301b56)

I'll repeat the same point I've made to you previously (I believe this is now the 3rd time I'm stating it): the DPPSC decision was one that, in itself, over-ruled that of the lead-prosecutor. More pointedly, until court proceedings commence, that decision is not binding and is open to change. You prefer to speak to "interference for political reasons" - versus initiatives to bring new information, new contextual analysis, new factors/influences, etc, forward to bring consideration towards reevaluating the initial decision. Essentially, as I've also previously stated to you, your want is to keep steadfast to a decision that, many suggest, is not in the public interest - not in the public interest when 9000 Canadian jobs might be in jeopardy, when the company might move its base of operations to another country, when the actual viability of the company itself could be at risk (particularly in regards a weakened position subject to takeover).

So what "new information, new contextual analysis, new factors/influences, etc" did they actually bring forth between September 6 and December 19?  What changed in the course of those 4 months?   Based on the testimony we have, the only new information presented to her during that time was that Prime Minister Trudeau had become increasingly frustrated.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 11:53:04 am
She stated in her testimony that both PM Trudeau and PMO Quebec strategist Mathieu Bouchard told her...

- during her Justice Committee testimony, in response to repeated questioning, JWR acknowledged no one, NO ONE, directed her to change the PPSC decision against a DPA.

- Clerk of the Privy Council offered testimony stating JWR was not directed... that there was no inappropriate pressure on JWR

- PM Trudeau has stated that neither he or anyone from his office directed JWR


hey now, here's another word for you to add to your growing list of descriptors: you've gone from using "pressuring", to using "badgering", to using "pleading". The word "hounding" has popped up in recent ConMedia articles... please add the word "hounding" to your descriptors grouping!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 11:59:42 am
- during her Justice Committee testimony, in response to repeated questioning, JWR acknowledged no one, NO ONE, directed her to change the PPSC decision against a DPA.

- Clerk of the Privy Council offered testimony stating JWR was not directed... that there was no inappropriate pressure on JWR

- PM Trudeau has stated that neither he or anyone from his office directed JWR


hey now, here's another word for you to add to your growing list of descriptors: you've gone from using "pressuring", to using "badgering", to using "pleading". The word "hounding" has popped up in recent ConMedia articles... please add the word "hounding" to your descriptors grouping!

We don't need those anymore, we now have "a consistent and sustained effort... to politically interfere."

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 12:00:17 pm
She declined to answer that question because it was irrelevant.

Her opinion of the deferred prosecution agreement legislation in general isn't at issue.  At issue is her refusal to interfere in a specific criminal case.
no - of course it's relevant... as stated previously!

no - JWR's personal views on the DPA option are most relevant. As Minister of Justice, JWR was responsible for the related bill passages and implementation into the criminal code... notwithstanding, again, her inability/apparent unwillingness to provide input to and answer questions relevant to the related Senate review of the bill particulars. Knowing that personal view (as Minister of Justice), would offer perspective & insight into JWRs AJ positions taken for cases involving the possibility of remediation agreements. On the broader level this is germane to cabinet solidarity and support for the government's mandate and direction. Again, if a Minister is not in agreement with a government position and related legislation... does not support it... political convention holds the Minister should resign.

You still don't actually get why crown prosecution is supposed to be arms length from political direction, do you.

again, no direction was given. And now, yet another of your own-goals!!! Who/What department do you understand to be, as you say, "crown prosecution"?  :o
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 12:06:49 pm
no - of course it's relevant... as stated previously!
 
again, no direction was given. And now, yet another of your own-goals!!! Who/What department do you understand to be, as you say, "crown prosecution"?  :o

"We didn't tell her what to do.  We just fired her because she didn't do what we'd decided on. It's totally different!"

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 12:19:26 pm
She declined to answer that question because it was irrelevant.

Her opinion of the deferred prosecution agreement legislation in general isn't at issue.  At issue is her refusal to interfere in a specific criminal case. 

Of course it's relevant - as a Minister, she is required to defend the decisions of the government, and carry out legislation whether or not she agrees with it.  Her inability to say whether or not she would ever support the use of DPAs is a problem.

Quote
You still don't actually get why crown prosecution is supposed to be arms length from political direction, do you.

Bringing that up is interesting, as the Crown wanted to go with a DPA and was overruled by the DPP.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 12:22:16 pm
"We didn't tell her what to do.  We just fired her because she didn't do what we'd decided on. It's totally different!"

 -k

The cabinet serves at the pleasure of the PM - he can move or remove a minister for any reason.  That is not under discussion.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 12:25:58 pm
The cabinet serves at the pleasure of the PM - he can move or remove a minister for any reason.  That is not under discussion.
Just because the PM can do something does not mean his motivations for doing it don't matter. i.e. doing something you can do for the wrong reasons is wrong.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 12:27:04 pm
and yet you have no qualms in repeatedly speaking to a "demotion". As you now openly state, you're not factoring anything else into why she might have been moved to other roles; you're not factoring the merits of her job performance and, I expect, you're not factoring her working relationships and the expressions of her work colleagues that speak to her as 'difficult', 'not-open', 'inflexible', etc.. Nor, I expect, are you factoring her formalized mandate... if you're not aware, all Ministers received mandates in terms of expected work/accomplishments they were to meet - a mandate she most certainly came no where close to meeting.
This laundry list of reasons-- anonymous whispers about her personality, alleged dissatisfaction with her work, "hey, maybe it's because she doesn't speak French", "she'd still be Justice minister if Scott Brison hadn't resigned," etc-- have the air of post-hoc rationalizing, or butt-covering.

it should be clear to anyone, even you, JWR did not have the appropriate background for the job in the first place... I'll let you state why she might have been chosen given her background was a mere 4 years as a junior prosecutor handling low-level drug crimes. She did not come any where near completing the official mandate she received; there is no shortage of opinion and fact based statements offered that she did not perform well, did not accomplish much, most of what she accomplished has received significant criticism, etc.. Additionally, it appears she was most difficult to work with while having questionable relationship skills - I mean, c'mon... who (other than JWR) burns through 4 Chief-of-Staffs in 3.5 years?

JWR was tasked not only with the Ministry of Veteran Affairs, she was also given the role of Associate Minister of National Defence. Your implication that she personally might consider the cabinet shuffle a demotion is simply more consideration for the view JWR is a whiny vindictive person bent on retaliation... and yes, to your earlier point, there is an ever growing sense/suspicion that JWR may herself be the anonymous source for the Robert Fife/G&M story that kicked all this off.

following your demotion theme there is no shortage of opinion (much of it fact based) that JWR performed poorly, was difficult to work with and didn't get along with others; as presented earlier:

=> Jody Wilson-Raybould Did A Poor Job As Justice Minister (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/kyla-lee/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin_a_23669171/?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter)

=> Wilson-Raybould battled Bennett, other ministers over Indigenous rights framework (https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/raybould-wernick-framework-1.5029144)

=> Wilson-Raybould’s regrettable legacy as justice minister (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/01/16/wilson-rayboulds-regrettable-legacy-as-justice-minister.html)

=>
(https://i.imgur.com/6RwW13O.png) (https://i.imgur.com/aaIBfUp.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 12:32:04 pm
We just fired her...

you keep stating this; again - no one was fired - or do you consider movement/reassignment within cabinet as... being fired?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 12:42:21 pm
Maybe finally the government will seriously consider separating the offices of AG and Min. of Justice. It has always seemed an obvious conflict when one office has to answer to the PM while the other is to be independent.  I do see that regardless of the recent turmoil, JWR is happilly preparing to run again for the Liberals. Trudeau will have to decide if she gets into caucus or not if she'e re elected.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 12:43:09 pm
it should be clear to anyone, even you, JWR did not have the appropriate background for the job in the first place... I'll let you state why she might have been chosen given her background was a mere 4 years as a junior prosecutor handling low-level drug crimes. She did not come any where near completing the official mandate she received; there is no shortage of opinion and fact based statements offered that she did not perform well, did not accomplish much, most of what she accomplished has received significant criticism, etc.. Additionally, it appears she was most difficult to work with while having questionable relationship skills - I mean, c'mon... who (other than JWR) burns through 4 Chief-of-Staffs in 3.5 years?

So according to your view, JT and the Sunshine Band appointed an unqualified person to the post of Justice Minister/Attorney General, and stuck with her through 3.5 years of incompetence and bungling, but decided to axe her from the job 2 weeks after Michael Wernick told her that the PM was determined to get a DPA for SNC-Lavalin, "one way or another".  Curious timing, you'd have to agree.

you keep stating this; again - no one was fired - or do you consider movement/reassignment within cabinet as... being fired?

She was removed from the post of AG. Based on what we now know about the circumstances, I think it's fair to say she was fired from that job.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 01:24:11 pm

She was removed from the post of AG. Based on what we now know about the circumstances, I think it's fair to say she was fired from that job.

 -k

Maybe - the question is why?

Could lit be this?

https://twitter.com/BellaLawyer/status/1102032046157910016

Could it be the growing list of unfilled justice appointments?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 02:55:09 pm
Could it be the growing list of unfilled justice appointments?
Then there should be documentation of the issue being brought to JWR's attention along with warnings that failure to improve will mean termination. It is not a big ask to expect the PM to meet standards that any HR dept must meet when firing a employee for non-performance.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 03:19:38 pm
Then there should be documentation of the issue being brought to JWR's attention along with warnings that failure to improve will mean termination.

Again, the cabinet serves at the pleasure of the PM.  I've never seen such a big deal made in the past about what happens regularly when a minister retires.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 03:41:52 pm
Again, the cabinet serves at the pleasure of the PM.  I've never seen such a big deal made in the past about what happens regularly when a minister retires.
There never was a need to question the motivations in the past. With JWR the motivations matter because it makes the difference between normal cabinet disagreements and political interference in the judicial process.

In any case, providing warnings to non-performing employees is people-management-skills 101 even if she can't sue for wrongful termination. This is especially true given the rhetoric around the need reduce the number of women in leadership positions who quit rather than put up with the culture.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 03, 2019, 03:42:55 pm
Then there should be documentation of the issue being brought to JWR's attention along with warnings that failure to improve will mean termination. It is not a big ask to expect the PM to meet standards that any HR dept must meet when firing a employee for non-performance.

She was a minister in cabinet, she was not fired - period - period - period. This is not about her losing a job.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 03:58:13 pm
There never was a need to question the motivations in the past.

Never?  Never?  Bull
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 04:13:22 pm
She was a minister in cabinet, she was not fired - period - period - period. This is not about her losing a job.
Meaningless semantics. She was doing a job. She was told by the boss  that she could not do that job anymore. IOW, she was fired. Why waste your time debating such things? It is not as if it the semantics actually provide an excuse. If she was removed from her job so the PM could better interfere in the judicial process for partisan political gain then the precise nature of her contract is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 04:27:44 pm
Meaningless semantics. She was doing a job. She was told by the boss  that she could not do that job anymore. IOW, she was fired. Why waste your time debating such things? It is not as if it the semantics actually provide an excuse. If she was removed from her job so the PM could better interfere in the judicial process for partisan political gain then the precise nature of her contract is irrelevant.

If she was "fired" as you keep trying to suggest, why is she still sitting in her seat as a Liberal MP and planning to run in the upcoming election as a Liberal MP?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 03, 2019, 04:48:50 pm
What led up to her being removed is what matters...  political interference in the juducial process is a no-no...   and the PM was caught because he appointed someone with ethics that differed from his (she had some).
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 05:00:11 pm
What led up to her being removed is what matters...  political interference in the juducial process is a no-no...   and the PM was caught because he appointed someone with ethics that differed from his (she had some).

ya ya, St. Jody's truth - self-described by JWR as, "her truth"!  :o

all the ConMedia and Scheer acolytes hell-bent in outright accepting, 'the truth as set forth by Jody'!

poor JWR - such ethics, such sensitivities to her described "undue pressure" (as identified and determined by... Jody).
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 05:01:18 pm
What led up to her being removed is what matters...  political interference in the juducial process is a no-no...   and the PM was caught because he appointed someone with ethics that differed from his (she had some).

She was also, arguably, not that good at her job.  I started out completely in her corner on this, but the more time goes by, the further I get from that corner.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 05:07:58 pm
She was also, arguably, not that good at her job.  I started out completely in her corner on this, but the more time goes by, the further I get from that corner.
9 out of 10 cabinet ministers are "arguably not that good at their job" because merit is not the primary criteria used to decide who gets what portfolio. So if that is the standard then Trudeau should have a lot of empty positions to fill. IOW, this line of argument is a post-hoc rationalization designed to obscur the most likely reason for her termination: the desire to interfere with the judicial process for partisan political gain.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 05:15:16 pm
9 out of 10 cabinet ministers are "arguably not that good at their job"

Oooh, citation.  There's a lot of evidence that she wasn't very good at her job, from unfilled judicial appointments, to cases left on her desk, to arguably unconstitutional laws.  That's why ministers get moved.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 05:25:42 pm
Oooh, citation.  There's a lot of evidence that she wasn't very good at her job, from unfilled judicial appointments, to cases left on her desk, to arguably unconstitutional laws.  That's why ministers get moved.

Yes and just now parliament is on a 2 week break so Trudeau will have time to review the issues you speak of.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 03, 2019, 05:39:32 pm
Maybe - the question is why?

Could lit be this?

https://twitter.com/BellaLawyer/status/1102032046157910016

Could it be the growing list of unfilled justice appointments?

Everyone knows why.  You honestly think it was this and not the SNC-Lavalin DPA?  How many times did Glen Assoun lobby the PMO?

Yes the PM can remove/shuffle any cabinet minister.  But the new AG also can't pursue a DPA because the PMO wants it for electoral reasons.  It's also not appropriate for a PMO etc to continually pressure an AG after a decision has been made using veiled threats.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 05:40:37 pm
Everyone knows why.  You honestly think it was this and not the SNC-Lavalin DPA? 

I think all of it speaks to a pattern.

Quote
Yes the PM can remove/shuffle any cabinet minister.  But the new AG also can't pursue a DPA because the PMO wants it for electoral reasons.  It's also not appropriate for a PMO etc to continually pressure an AG after a decision has been made using veiled threats.

It's time we stop pretending that the AG isn't a political office in Canada.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 06:01:27 pm
It's time we stop pretending that the AG isn't a political office in Canada.

I think it's time we separate the AG and Justice Minister into two jobs.

I think everybody here is smart enough to understand why the AG is supposed to be independent of political interference.

I think some of you are willing to excuse it in this case because the goal was supposedly laudatory.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 06:06:59 pm
But the new AG also can't pursue a DPA because the PMO wants it for electoral reasons.  It's also not appropriate for a PMO etc to continually pressure an AG after a decision has been made using veiled threats.

please stop parroting "Jody's truth"!

would it be appropriate for an AG/Justice Minister to refuse to provide her personal view on DPAs? Would it be appropriate for an AG to refuse to consider a DPA option because of a personal predilection against DPAs?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 06:07:31 pm
I think it's time we separate the AG and Justice Minister into two jobs.

I think everybody here is smart enough to understand why the AG is supposed to be independent of political interference.

I think some of you are willing to excuse it in this case because the goal was supposedly laudatory.

 -k

I think that separating the offices will do nothing - the AG will still be a political office.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 06:08:43 pm
The notion that 9000 jobs would just disappear from the economy if SNC-Lavalin were prevented from receiving federal contracts for 10 years is mistaken.  Federal contracts are going to be awarded, whether SNC-Lavalin is there to receive them or not.  If SNC has to lay off employees because they don't win federal contracts, firms that do win federal contracts will be hiring.  Canada has many successful engineering companies, some of them located just across town from SNC-Lavalin.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2019, 06:10:35 pm
I think that separating the offices will do nothing - the AG will still be a political office.

The only reason this mess has occurred in the first place is that the Prime Minister has the power to fire an inconvenient AG and shop for a new one. If the AG were accountable to an independent body rather than a politician, this wouldn't have occurred.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 06:19:41 pm
It's time we stop pretending that the AG isn't a political office in Canada.

of course the (former) Justice Minister, JWR, sat at the cabinet table... and, of course, heard ongoing debate within cabinet concerning the option for considering a DPA for SNC-Lavalin. Such "undue" (undefined, unregistered, non-calibrated, non-measured) pressure coming at the AJ Justice Minister! Oh my!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 06:25:02 pm
The notion that 9000 jobs would just disappear from the economy if SNC-Lavalin were prevented from receiving federal contracts for 10 years is mistaken.  Federal contracts are going to be awarded, whether SNC-Lavalin is there to receive them or not.  If SNC has to lay off employees because they don't win federal contracts, firms that do win federal contracts will be hiring.  Canada has many successful engineering companies, some of them located just across town from SNC-Lavalin.

such a naive grouping of statements. The viability of the company is said to be at state - to the point it would, effectively, sever its operations within Canada and move its base to the UK... if it wasn't outright take-over given its significantly weakened position. Those 9000 jobs are all across Canada - I trust your negating their value would go over well in those related locations. Let them eat cake, hey?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2019, 06:28:54 pm
The only reason this mess has occurred in the first place is that the Prime Minister has the power to fire an inconvenient AG and shop for a new one. If the AG were accountable to an independent body rather than a politician, this wouldn't have occurred.

you finally make a relevant point; even if done inadvertently on your part! There are concerns in separating out the roles and making the AG one separate from government... something about a new government coming in and having the (possibly different) ideologies of the current AG impacting upon them. Naw, that would never happen, right?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 06:31:50 pm
such a naive grouping of statements. The viability of the company is said to be at state - to the point it would, effectively, sever its operations within Canada and move its base to the UK... if it wasn't outright take-over given its significantly weakened position. Those 9000 jobs are all across Canada - I trust your negating their value would go over well in those related locations. Let them eat cake, hey?
Well, the Trudeau government is doing its best to drive the pipeline companies out of Canada and does not give a damn about the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost. So this government has absolutely no business using the 'Canada will lose jobs argument'. The only reason the Liberals care about SNC is because it is well connected to the Liberal party.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 06:32:30 pm
Well, the Trudeau government is doing its best to drive the pipeline companies out of Canada and does not give a damn about the tens of thousands of jobs that will be lost.

Riiiight.  That's a popular line, but there's ample proof to the contrary.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 03, 2019, 06:44:09 pm
Riiiight.  That's a popular line, but there's ample proof to the contrary.
Sorry. They killed energy east by requiring pipelines to account for upstream and downstream emissions: a standard that no other industry is expected to meet - including all those tankers importing oil into Quebec. Trudeau had made it clear that trans mountain is the last pipeline that will ever be built as long as the Liberals are in charge and they care nothing for the jobs that will be lost because of their virtue signalling BS.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:06:09 pm
Yes and just now parliament is on a 2 week break so Trudeau will have time to review the issues you speak of.

Your leader is hiding. His avoiding the press has nothing to do with Parliament being closed. By the way get out of fantasy land. Even when your Lord is asked questions in Parliament he refuses to answer them. His refusal to answer questions is there for anyone to watch.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 07:09:14 pm
Sorry. They killed energy east

Energy east was never going to happen - never.  The indigenous considerations make it impossible.

The Liberals have been staunch advocates for both Keystone XL and TMX.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:19:32 pm
Oooh, citation.  There's a lot of evidence that she wasn't very good at her job, from unfilled judicial appointments, to cases left on her desk, to arguably unconstitutional laws.  That's why ministers get moved.

1. There is no evidence the MNR of Justice was incompetent. I call you out. As you would say oooh citation. Stop fabricating.
2. The MNR of Justice AG does not appoint Judges or control the timing of the selection process. Go find out the process.

Stop fabricating false allegations and do some research.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:29:43 pm
please stop parroting "Jody's truth"!

would it be appropriate for an AG/Justice Minister to refuse to provide her personal view on DPAs? Would it be appropriate for an AG to refuse to consider a DPA option because of a personal predilection against DPAs?

What was the point of your comment? Should someone tell you to stop parroting Trudeau? You clearly are unable to discuss the legal issues.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:35:17 pm
I think all of it speaks to a pattern.

It's time we stop pretending that the AG isn't a political office in Canada.

1. It speaks to repeated attempts by Trudeau to break the law for politically motivated reasons.
2. The AG's office has never been political and specifically defined and application in a non partisan manner. You clearly do not understand how your government is defined by law.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:39:18 pm
I think that separating the offices will do nothing - the AG will still be a political office.

It never was a political office. Please provide the examples of  how past AG's  acted partisan and refused to pursue prosecutions. Good luck and try get back to me this century with the evidence of the AG's incompetence.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 03, 2019, 07:40:33 pm
It never was a political office.

It's an office held by a politician.  You're living in a dream world.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 07:47:30 pm
It's an office held by a politician.  You're living in a dream world.

So? Do you give any thought to a thing you write? The Minster of Justice and AG wears two hats, one partisan in function, the other non partisan. The fact you can't be bothered to try find out why that is the case at this point speaks to wilful ignorance. Would you go find out what the AG' s function is.

The fact Trudeau wanted the AG to violate her job description by acting in a partisan way did not and can not not make the job description political and partisan. Read the damn job description.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 07:51:21 pm
Your leader is hiding. His avoiding the press has nothing to do with Parliament being closed. By the way get out of fantasy land. Even when your Lord is asked questions in Parliament he refuses to answer them. His refusal to answer questions is there for anyone to watch.

I'll refute that silly comment by referring you back to your buddy Harper.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 07:54:23 pm
So? Do you give any thought to a thing you write. The Minster of Justice and AG Sears two hats, one partisan n function, the other non partisan. The fact you can't be bothered to try find out why that is the case at this point speaks to wilful ignorance. Would you go find out what the AG,'s function is. Until you do you does nonsense.

Already been described in previous posts. I also suggested that these two responsibilities ought to be split.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 03, 2019, 08:01:24 pm
It's time we stop pretending that the AG isn't a political office in Canada.

There's no doubt it has been in the past. But it's not supposed to be.  The only thing stopping it from being a political office influenced by the whims of the PMO etc is an AG who is ethical, does their job properly and abides by their legal oaths as a lawyer and elected official.

I didn't give JWR the benefit of the doubt, I thought she was probably a slimy ethically-dubious politician like many of the others.  Her testimony was compelling enough to convince me otherwise, at least in her duties as AG.  We'll see how that all holds up with further testimony.

There was no upside in her resisting the PMO's DPA pressure, only a risk to her job/career.  JWR says there was inappropriate pressure, JT says there was none.  Someone is wrong, and possibly lying, who do we believe?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 08:05:16 pm
it should be clear to anyone, even you, JWR did not have the appropriate background for the job in the first place... I'll let you state why she might have been chosen given her background was a mere 4 years as a junior prosecutor handling low-level drug crimes. She did not come any where near completing the official mandate she received; there is no shortage of opinion and fact based statements offered that she did not perform well, did not accomplish much, most of what she accomplished has received significant criticism, etc.. Additionally, it appears she was most difficult to work with while having questionable relationship skills - I mean, c'mon... who (other than JWR) burns through 4 Chief-of-Staffs in 3.5 years?

It should be clear to anyone you can't debate the issues raised by the former AG so attempt to attack her personally to avoid the issues she raised and that makes your attempt to  deflect from the issues she raised pathetic.

As for your attempt to assassinate her character:

1. You have no problem with the qualifications for your PM consisting one year of employment as a supply drama teacher in a private school
2. You have no problem with your foreign minister having zero qualifications in international law
3. If what you said is true necessarily this means Trudeau chose an incompetent candidate and so should be fired.

At this point your attempts to charter assassinate are past absurd.

You also need a reality check if you think at this point she was fired because she was unable to understand her job. There is a reason  5 former AG's have come out supporting her. Your comments about her being a jr. dug crown are laughable. She was a well respected Crown in BC. You have no idea as to her reputation  clearly and are fabricating horse crap at this point. What next...are you saying she was retarded? How absolutely bottom feeding scum sucking snively do we go with this. Was she a drunk? Did she sleep around?  Oh please share.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 08:11:43 pm
Already been described in previous posts. I also suggested that these two responsibilities ought to be split.

Different issue. The fact we should split the two jobs up which I also agree with does not and can not justify what Trudeau did. Stop deflecting from the in description of the AG. The fact Trudeau  won't respect the AG job description does not make the AG job description political.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 08:14:20 pm
There's no doubt it has been in the past. But it's not supposed to be.  The only thing stopping it from being a political office influenced by the whims of the PMO etc is an AG who is ethical, does their job properly and abides by their legal oaths as a lawyer and elected official.

I didn't give JWR the benefit of the doubt, I thought she was probably a slimy ethically-dubious politician like many of the others.  Her testimony was compelling enough to convince me otherwise, at least in her duties as AG.  We'll see how that all holds up with further testimony.

There was no upside in her resisting the PMO's DPA pressure, only a risk to her job/career.  JWR says there was inappropriate pressure, JT says there was none.  Someone is wrong, and possibly lying, who do we believe?

JT has said he will spend time during the two week recess to further review this case. We shall see what he has to say and how/if what he concludes is challenged. It seems a lot of jumping to conclusions has occurred so far. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 08:27:13 pm
There's no doubt it has been in the past. But it's not supposed to be.  The only thing stopping it from being a political office influenced by the whims of the PMO etc is an AG who is ethical, does their job properly and abides by their legal oaths as a lawyer and elected official.

I didn't give JWR the benefit of the doubt, I thought she was probably a slimy ethically-dubious politician like many of the others.  Her testimony was compelling enough to convince me otherwise, at least in her duties as AG.  We'll see how that all holds up with further testimony.

There was no upside in her resisting the PMO's DPA pressure, only a risk to her job/career.  JWR says there was inappropriate pressure, JT says there was none.  Someone is wrong, and possibly lying, who do we believe?


No never. You will not find one case federally of a Crown being pressured by the gov. of the day to drop a criminal trial based on the accused in that trial lobbying the gov. of the day to drop the case. Never. This is why there has never been a need to make more distinct the AG function. Until Justin this has never happened.

We have had MP's phone judges on behalf of their  constituents  to try influence sentencing but it was never sanctioned by the gov. of the day. Influence peddling in Canada has never dealt with this type of okattempt at corrupting the AG.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 08:29:07 pm
Different issue. The fact we should split the two jobs up which I also agree with does not and can not justify what Trudeau did. Stop deflecting from the in description of the AG. The fact Trudeau  won't respect the AG job description does not make the AG job description political.

Except there is a difference between job description and job performance. Once again, more info is needed.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 09:03:37 pm
Except there is a difference between job description and job performance. Once again, more info is needed.

What does that mean exactly or did you just engage in a Liberal fart? Oh do clear the air.The AG was fired precisely because she performed her job as per her job description.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 09:14:42 pm
Except there is a difference between job description and job performance. Once again, more info is needed.

Yah and you need evidence among causes cancer.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 09:16:14 pm
What does that mean exactly or did you just engage in a Liberal fart? Oh do clear the air.The AG was fired precisely because she performed her job as per her job description.

Oh, so perhaps you figured it out all by yourself that job description is what you are supposed to do, performance is what you actually do. Very good. As to the last part of your comment, we are not sure yet.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 03, 2019, 09:54:50 pm
Oh, so perhaps you figured it out all by yourself that job description is what you are supposed to do, performance is what you actually do. Very good. As to the last part of your comment, we are not sure yet.

Oh so I get it. The AG job description really isn''t no really.

You done or do you want to dig further.

Can you get any more dumb?

Seriously how far do you want to advance your idiotic response that the description isn't really the job description.

See when the law says  don't do something well come now it doesn't really mean that. Yes according to Omni no does not mean no and  hey now if Jody says stop harassing me you can say  to her oh no no no to you I am not harassing you to break the law I am simply engaging in a harmless cluster phuck of coercion to compromise an on going criminal trial on behalf of the accused because that is the real job. Uphold a law? Don't be silly...laws are just descriptions andd  breaking them is the real way to perform them.

Now Omni is a performance artist. Quite the masterpiece. I call it Trudeauclusterphuckcoercionliberalspazanxietyattackreactionquebecoisfluidcnsequentiality
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2019, 09:57:56 pm
Oh so I get it. The AG my description that is not what really is the in. It's something else. I mean come on if my. In description says the law does not allow me to do something so what.

You done or do you want to dig further.  Can you get any more dumb?  Seriously how far do you want to advance your idiotic response that the in description isn't really the job description. See you are just can't little but pregnant but not really pregnant. See when we say don't do something well have come now it doesn't really mean that. Yes according to Omni no does not mean no and when a woman says stop harassing me you say to her oh no no no.

Lol run along Omni and have a liberal spazz attack with her buddies. You can always seek refuge in Oz.

My suggestion is stop drinking and go take a grammar class.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 04, 2019, 12:28:06 am
What was the point of your comment? Should someone tell you to stop parroting Trudeau? You clearly are unable to discuss the legal issues.

the extent of my "parroting Trudeau" is to state what he has said publicly... that neither he or anyone from his office directed JWR... that no inappropriate pressure was applied... that in direct response to JWR herself, he, "advised her the decision was hers to make.

the extent of my "parroting JWR" is to state she has publicly stated that NO illegalities occurred... that no one directed her to act to offer a DPA.

the extent of those "parroting Jody's truth" is to choose to accept her interpretation of "pressure"... without regard to an accounting of said pressure, validated and measured against some baseline reference for what constitutes "undue pressure" as distinct from what JWR presumes to cause bother to her fee-fee sensitivities!

as for discussing the legal issues, I try to give your incoherent rambling a pass as I presume English is not your first language.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 04, 2019, 12:44:01 am
it should be clear to anyone, even you, JWR did not have the appropriate background for the job in the first place... I'll let you state why she might have been chosen given her background was a mere 4 years as a junior prosecutor handling low-level drug crimes. She did not come any where near completing the official mandate she received; there is no shortage of opinion and fact based statements offered that she did not perform well, did not accomplish much, most of what she accomplished has received significant criticism, etc.. Additionally, it appears she was most difficult to work with while having questionable relationship skills - I mean, c'mon... who (other than JWR) burns through 4 Chief-of-Staffs in 3.5 years?
It should be clear to anyone you can't debate the issues raised by the former AG so attempt to attack her personally to avoid the issues she raised and that makes your attempt to  deflect from the issues she raised pathetic.

At this point your attempts to charter assassinate are past absurd.

You also need a reality check if you think at this point she was fired because she was unable to understand her job. There is a reason  5 former AG's have come out supporting her. Your comments about her being a jr. dug crown are laughable. She was a well respected Crown in BC. You have no idea as to her reputation  clearly and are fabricating horse crap at this point. What next...are you saying she was retarded? How absolutely bottom feeding scum sucking snively do we go with this. Was she a drunk? Did she sleep around?  Oh please share.

your strawman attempt notwithstanding... I've not, as you say, "attacked personally; attempted to charter(sic) assassinate". What I have done is given examples of publicly presented writing representative of my summary account; specifically, again, as before:

... there is no shortage of opinion (much of it fact based) that JWR performed poorly, was difficult to work with and didn't get along with others; as presented earlier:

=> Jody Wilson-Raybould Did A Poor Job As Justice Minister (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/kyla-lee/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin_a_23669171/?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter)

=> Wilson-Raybould battled Bennett, other ministers over Indigenous rights framework (https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/raybould-wernick-framework-1.5029144)

=> Wilson-Raybould’s regrettable legacy as justice minister (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/01/16/wilson-rayboulds-regrettable-legacy-as-justice-minister.html)

=>
(https://i.imgur.com/6RwW13O.png) (https://i.imgur.com/aaIBfUp.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 04, 2019, 01:05:46 am
You also need a reality check if you think at this point she was fired because she was unable to understand her job. There is a reason  5 former AG's have come out supporting her. Your comments about her being a jr. dug crown are laughable. She was a well respected Crown in BC. You have no idea as to her reputation  clearly and are fabricating horse crap at this point. What next...are you saying she was retarded? How absolutely bottom feeding scum sucking snively do we go with this. Was she a drunk? Did she sleep around?  Oh please share.

no - I've never accepted the talking-point that JWR was fired; rather, I have repeatedly spoken to a reassignment in line with a cabinet shuffle. I've also not accepted the other talking-point that the reassignment was a demotion; rather, in line with a forced hand to deal with a position opening, reassignments occurred - something that happens quite matter-of-factly over time as government's progress through their workings. I respected JWR for assuming the new most worthy/taxing assignments (Minister of Veteran Affairs/Associate Minister of National Defence) and was surprised that after ~ 1 month holding those new portfolios, she chose to resign.

I earlier challenged you to cite your claim that (I paraphrase), "5 former AG's have brought a lawsuit forward" - clearly your bluster didn't prevail, hey! What has occurred is 5 former AG's have written a public letter to the RCMP Commissioner asking for an investigation over allegations of, again, "undue pressure"; the group led by infamous Harper toady, Peter MacKay; inclusive of 4 other provincial AG's (3 Conservatives, 1 NDP). Nothing partisan to see here - move along now!  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 04, 2019, 01:16:51 am
if anyone cares to notice my absence (hey Pinus ;D), I'll be gone for a while
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on March 04, 2019, 07:22:39 am
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-more-than-half-of-canadians-say-charges-against-snc-lavalin-should-go/

Quote
More than half of Canadians say fraud and corruption charges against SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. should go to a criminal trial rather than a negotiated settlement where the Montreal engineering and construction giant would pay fines and avoid prosecution, according to a new survey.

The numbers, provided exclusively to The Globe and Mail and CTV News, are based on a Nanos poll of 750 Canadians from Feb. 28 to March 1. The poll comes after testimony from former justice minister and attorney-general Jody Wilson-Raybould to a parliamentary justice committee on Feb. 27, when she alleged “consistent and sustained” political pressure from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and other senior officials to shelve the criminal prosecution of SNC-Lavalin.

Canadians clearly don't care about jobs.  ::)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 04, 2019, 09:27:16 am
A Nanos poll put out said that only 17% of Canadians would vote based on this issue above others, so....

It's also worth noting that the DPP has said that there was no undue pressure.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 04, 2019, 09:37:21 am
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-more-than-half-of-canadians-say-charges-against-snc-lavalin-should-go/

Canadians clearly don't care about jobs.  ::)


Of course.  "Too big to fail"/"Too big to jail" are wildly unpopular narratives, and those are essentially Trudeau's rationales for not dropping the ban-hammer on SNC-Lavalin.


SNC CEO Neal Bruce hasn't exactly charmed people either, delightful Scottish accent notwithstanding.  His comments smack of an air of entitlement-- they feel entitled to a deferred prosecution agreement-- which is a pretty galling attitude for a guy running a company with such a disgraceful track record.  "That was all before 2012! It was all the work of a few rogue executives who are no longer with the company! It's not the company's fault that a few rogue executives broke the law! We've put in place a new ethics program!"   The company's conduct in this Libya business and a number of other instances, such as the McGill hospital bid, was just shameful. Nobody likes the idea of letting them off the hook for it.   When you have such a number of notable ethics violation in such a short span of time, what you have isn't "a few rogue executives", what you have is a cultural problem. Despite paying lip service to the idea that "what happened before 2012 should never have happened", Mr Bruce and SNC take no ownership of it and show no contrition for it. This kind of arrogance and entitlement from a profligate serial offender rubs people the wrong way, to say the least.


I think people are also not convinced that these jobs will just evaporate. The work will be done whether it's by SNC or by other companies, and those other companies will need employees to do the work that SNC won't be able to bid.  And maybe competitors who've lost bids because of SNC corruption deserve to make some money while SNC sits in the penalty box. People talk as if SNC is the only engineering company in Canada or the only one in Quebec, but it isn't. There are many, including Montreal-based WSP, which is almost as large as SNC.  SNC's competitors have been cheated by SNC corruption.  Where's the justice for them?


I also think people aren't swayed by the "what about investors?" argument.  Investors have known for years that they own shares in a corrupt company.  Investors profited directly from said corruption.  If they still own shares in spite of the numerous publicly known scandals SNC has been involved in, they deserve to take a hit.  In hanging on to those shares, they've gambled that SNC could escape financial consequences of their misdeeds, and I don't feel much sympathy for people who gamble and lose.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 04, 2019, 09:45:11 am
A Nanos poll put out said that only 17% of Canadians would vote based on this issue above others, so....

It's also worth noting that the DPP has said that there was no undue pressure.

The DPP wasn't under undue pressure because JWR shielded her from it.


As to the poll... I don't think this is going to kill the Trudeau government.  This scandal isn't nearly as bad as the sponsorship scandal, and the Liberals still managed to win a minority government after that came to light.  This will certainly damage people's faith in the "brand", but people just aren't impressed by the alternatives. Scheer sucks. Nobody wants an NDP government.  And, this story probably helps the Liberals win votes in Quebec, which is the real difference maker.  "'ey, de Trudeau, 'e really stick out de neck for de SNC, ey?" Quebec voters are probably somewhat happy that the Liberals went this far to save their company.


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 04, 2019, 12:10:26 pm
if anyone cares to notice my absence (hey Pinus ;D), I'll be gone for a while

Enjoy your time off.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 04, 2019, 02:31:34 pm
The notion that 9000 jobs would just disappear from the economy if SNC-Lavalin were prevented from receiving federal contracts for 10 years is mistaken.

I don't think that was ever an argument. The point is SNC-Lavalin might move out of Canada (head office, etc.) if they are unable to compete on federal contracts. Yes the federal business might go elsewhere, but still lots of Canadian jobs will be lost.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 04, 2019, 02:38:11 pm
PHILPOTT RESIGNS !!  :o
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Goddess on March 04, 2019, 02:51:29 pm
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/i-have-lost-confidence-jane-philpott-resigns-from-cabinet-over-trudeaus-handling-of-snc-lavalin-affair/ar-BBUn6xf?li=AAggNb9&ocid=spartandhp

Quote
“The evidence of efforts by politicians and/or officials to pressure the former Attorney General to intervene in the criminal case involving SNC-Lavalin, and the evidence as to the content of those efforts have raised serious concerns for me,” she wrote.

“Those concerns have been augmented by the views expressed by my constituents and other Canadians.”

She continued, adding that the “solemn principles” of judicial independence was at stake in the matter.

“Sadly, I have lost confidence in how the government had dealt with this matter and in how it has responded to the issues raised.”


Yikes. :o
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 03:09:47 pm
Liberal government handling of this affair has been atrocious...  they seem to be coming apart at the seems (at the Cabinet level, no less).  It remains to be seen how far this extends to other Ministers or backbenchers.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 04, 2019, 03:10:07 pm
Okay this is bad.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 03:20:08 pm
Yes this could certainly hurt JT. I'll be interested in his response.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 04, 2019, 03:22:44 pm
On the other hand several prominent lawyers on Twitter have had to retract claims that DPAs cannot weight economic considerations.  That is in fact not the case.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 04, 2019, 03:22:53 pm
Philpot’s resignation is an unmitigated disaster for Trudeau. She’s a principled Liberal, so there’s no sugar coating the problem now (though I’m sure Waldo will try).
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 03:26:07 pm
On the other hand several prominent lawyers on Twitter have had to retract claims that DPAs cannot weight economic considerations.  That is in fact not the case.

"There's a vote in Quebec...   I'm a Quebec MP..."     Those are not economic considerations.

Treasury Board is a major portfolio.  This is a huge loss and an embarrassment for this government.  Shuffle those deck chairs!!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 04, 2019, 03:36:46 pm
Notice of meeting
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights (JUST)
42nd Parliament, 1st Session
 
Meeting 137
Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
Room 415, Wellington Building, 197 Sparks Street
Televised
 
Remediation Agreements, the Shawcross Doctrine and the Discussions Between the Office of the Attorney General and Government Colleagues
Witnesses
As an individual
• Gerald Butts
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 03:46:24 pm
Notice of meeting
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights (JUST)
42nd Parliament, 1st Session
 
Meeting 137
Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
Room 415, Wellington Building, 197 Sparks Street
Televised
 
Remediation Agreements, the Shawcross Doctrine and the Discussions Between the Office of the Attorney General and Government Colleagues
Witnesses
As an individual
• Gerald Butts

Yep, that's certainly one thing I'm waiting for. He has claimed his resignation was so that he could step away from the issue so as not to be influenced prior to giving his testimony.   
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 03:57:09 pm
My guess is that Butts will play the "bad cop" and accuse JWR of being a liar, sensitive, weak, incompetent, or whatever so the PM doesn't have to.  He will try and provide aggressive cover for the PM while not being part of the PMO...   

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 04:05:06 pm
I'm hoping that somehow this issue gets beyond the "he said, she said" level, whichever way it goes.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 04, 2019, 04:19:05 pm
My guess...

Much better to wait and hear what he has to say. I remember a couple of weeks back when JWR was scheduled to testify,someone in here (too many messages for me to find out who) said that she will cozy up to Trudeau and cover it up. Too much speculation going on, lets see what actually happens.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 04:19:22 pm
I'm hoping that somehow this issue gets beyond the "he said, she said" level, whichever way it goes.

How could it?  Meetings aren't recorded. 

It seems to me that the PMO put political pressure to influence the outcome of criminal proceedings...   either you are OK with that for whatever reason, or you're not.  Personally, I don't think that's right.  I think it's something that would happen in a banana republic. 

Others hang their hat on the fact that it's OK because it was saving jobs...  or they are clinging to semantics about what is "pressure" and what isn't to support the gov't.

Now we have another Minister in the gov't resign over the matter...  and you want to hear from Butts?  That's kind of odd to me considering he's a political appointee who will likely support his boss come hell or high water...   Phillpot didn't need to wait to hear what Butts had to say...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 04:22:07 pm
Much better to wait and hear what he has to say. I remember a couple of weeks back when JWR was scheduled to testify,someone in here (too many messages for me to find out who) said that she will cozy up to Trudeau and cover it up. Too much speculation going on, lets see what actually happens.

Meh...  he will likely support Trudeau, his boss and buddy, despite what they did.   I think Philpott resigning says a lot more about what happened than anything a PMO guy in short pants has to say...   I never liked Harper's yes-men in the PMO who could overrule elected officials....   I'm not a fan of Trudeau's who seem to be doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 04, 2019, 04:26:46 pm
It seems to me that the PMO put political pressure to influence the outcome of criminal proceedings...   either you are OK with that for whatever reason, or you're not.  Personally, I don't think that's right.  I think it's something that would happen in a banana republic.
One caveat: as JWR said, it is perfectly reasonable for cabinet members to raise the issues that should be considered. The problem here is it went way beyond that to the point where JWR was shuffled out of her job because she did not do what they wanted.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 04:28:34 pm
How could it?  Meetings aren't recorded. 

It seems to me that the PMO put political pressure to influence the outcome of criminal proceedings...   either you are OK with that for whatever reason, or you're not.  Personally, I don't think that's right.  I think it's something that would happen in a banana republic. 

Others hang their hat on the fact that it's OK because it was saving jobs...  or they are clinging to semantics about what is "pressure" and what isn't to support the gov't.

Now we have another Minister in the gov't resign over the matter...  and you want to hear from Butts?  That's kind of odd to me considering he's a political appointee who will likely support his boss come hell or high water...   Phillpot didn't need to wait to hear what Butts had to say...

I'll wait until I hear what he has to say and then jump to conclusions which seems to be the standard approach on this issue.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2019, 04:54:18 pm
Not good for Trudeau.  3 resignations now if you include Butts.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 04, 2019, 04:59:39 pm
Not good for Trudeau.  3 resignations now if you include Butts.

Butts didn't resign in any sort of protest or disagreement with the PM's handling of SNC-L.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 05:03:32 pm
Butts didn't resign in any sort of protest or disagreement with the PM's handling of SNC-L.

Which is why I wait to hear what he has to say Wednesday.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2019, 05:04:35 pm
Butts didn't resign in any sort of protest or disagreement with the PM's handling of SNC-L.

Yes but a trusted confidant bit the dust over a scandal.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2019, 05:05:45 pm
I'm hoping that somehow this issue gets beyond the "he said, she said" level, whichever way it goes.

Would like to see all these texts/emails etc that are apparently out there.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:06:58 pm
I'll wait until I hear what he has to say and then jump to conclusions which seems to be the standard approach on this issue.

You mean remain in denial.

Here let me help with the definition:

"denial: believing or imagining that some painful or traumatic circumstance, event or memory does not exist or did not happen.

denial (in psychology): failure to acknowledge an unacceptable truth or emotion or to admit into consciousness, used as a defense mechanism."1

1-https://www.powerofpositivity.com/5-behaviors-show-someone-denial/

Here let me make you feel understood with some quotes:

"Modern idols or false gods can take such forms as clothes, homes, businesses, machines, automobiles, pleasure boats, and numerous other material deflectors."

Spencer W. Kimball

"Or in the case of Justin Trudeau a large vibrator."

Rue

"The worship of false gods is always an outgrowth of spiritual deception."
Max Anders

"Or in the case  of Justin Trudeau forgetting to turn the vibrator off before stepping into the shower."

Rue

"The historian's first duties are sacrilege and the mocking of false gods. They are his indispensable instruments for establishing the truth."

Jules Michelet

"We need to advise Liberals who voted for Trudeau that Peter Pan was played by a female for years."

Rue

"The happy man is he who knows his limitations, yet bows to no false gods."

Robert W. Service

" Justin Trudeau makes me happy."

Rue

"Objective is the wrong word. Rather, it's fairness. Objectivity is a false God. Instead we should strive for fairness and transparency."

Ken Auletta

"Trudeau as a concept is not fair but very transparent."

Rue

"We need to mock false gods publicly."

Robert Barron

" Trudeau reminds me of Bruce Chris Jenner...no matter how pretty s/he tries to be, s/he's just damn ugly."

Rue



Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:07:40 pm
Butts didn't resign in any sort of protest or disagreement with the PM's handling of SNC-L.

Yah it was just a bad case of hemmeroids.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:09:00 pm
Much better to wait and hear what he has to say.  Too much speculation going on, lets see what actually happens.

Ouch your head hurts. Yah you didn't hear or understand a thing Jody said.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:10:44 pm
One caveat: as JWR said, it is perfectly reasonable for cabinet members to raise the issues that should be considered..

Not with and never with the AG. If nothing else it was the Privy Council's head to state that repeatedly to the PM and his list of pressurizers.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 05:11:35 pm
You mean remain in denial.

Here let me help with the definition:

"denial: believing or imagining that some painful or traumatic circumstance, event or memory does not exist or did not happen.

denial (in psychology): failure to acknowledge an unacceptable truth or emotion or to admit into consciousness, used as a defense mechanism."1

1-https://www.powerofpositivity.com/5-behaviors-show-someone-denial/

Here let me make you feel understood with some quotes:

"Modern idols or false gods can take such forms as clothes, homes, businesses, machines, automobiles, pleasure boats, and numerous other material deflectors."

Spencer W. Kimball

"Or in the case of Justin Trudeau a large vibrator."

Rue

"The worship of false gods is always an outgrowth of spiritual deception."
Max Anders

"Or in the case  of Justin Trudeau forgetting to turn the vibrator off before stepping into the shower."

Rue

"The historian's first duties are sacrilege and the mocking of false gods. They are his indispensable instruments for establishing the truth."

Jules Michelet

"We need to advise Liberals who voted for Trudeau that Peter Pan was played by a female for years."

Rue

"The happy man is he who knows his limitations, yet bows to no false gods."

Robert W. Service

" Justin Trudeau makes me happy."

Rue

"Objective is the wrong word. Rather, it's fairness. Objectivity is a false God. Instead we should strive for fairness and transparency."

Ken Auletta

"Trudeau as a concept is not fair but very transparent."

Rue

"We need to mock false gods publicly."

Robert Barron

" Trudeau reminds me of Bruce Chris Jenner...no matter how pretty s/he tries to be, s/he's just damn ugly."

Rue

Do you actually think anybody wastes time reading this screed? Keep tryin' though l'il buddy.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:12:44 pm
Which is why I wait to hear what he has to say Wednesday.

Not me I am psychic. He will say

"I didn't do anything wrong."

Yep just call me psychic.

Yes sir... when I run into a street walker (PMO employee) I know the first thing s/he will ask me as well.

Imagine that.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 04, 2019, 05:14:02 pm
Do you actually think anybody wastes time reading this screed? Keep tryin' though l'il buddy.

He says: I don't read what you write.
I say: Then why do you respond.
He says" Uh uh uh
I say: There you go again imitating your beloved.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 05:14:55 pm
Not me I am psychic. He will say

"I didn't do anything wrong."

Yep just call me psychic.

Yes sir... when I run into a **** I know the first thing she will ask me as well.

Imagine that.

To "bugger off"?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2019, 05:17:20 pm
He says: I don't read what you write.
I say: Then why do you respond.
He says" Uh uh uh
I say: There you go again imitating your beloved.

Perhaps stop wasting time, or slip over to mlw where it is much more acceptable.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 04, 2019, 05:22:47 pm
Ouch your head hurts. Yah you didn't hear or understand a thing Jody said.

What does that have to do with what I said?

Nothing, which is not surprising. You prefer speculation over facts. Maybe you can write a miniseries.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 04, 2019, 10:34:10 pm
PHILPOTT RESIGNS !!  :o

I'm hearing that she's not a team player, difficult to work with, has no friends in caucus, did a lousy job, was underqualified and only got the job because she's aboriginal, doesn't speak French, and would still be chairman of the Treasury if Scott Brison hadn't resigned.

Philpot’s resignation is an unmitigated disaster for Trudeau. She’s a principled Liberal, so there’s no sugar coating the problem now (though I’m sure Waldo will try).

(https://i.imgur.com/4RGnHUk.gif)

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2019, 10:39:40 pm
PHILPOTT RESIGNS !!  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uACvFAm6JSM
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on March 05, 2019, 01:19:35 am
Okay this is bad.

Really?  Anyway, you will find someway to rationalize all of this no matter what, Gerry will testify and you will be back on board.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on March 05, 2019, 01:33:12 am
Which is why I wait to hear what he has to say Wednesday.

lol, this is so dumb, golly gee what do we think he is going to say, let me guess... you want to wait to hear what he has to say so you can say the things you already still believe in spite of everything that has happened, he will twist, obfuscate and lie, you will eat it up and regurgitate it, you would vote Trudeau if he pushed your mother down the stairs.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 01:57:58 am
Really?  Anyway, you will find someway to rationalize all of this no matter what, Gerry will testify and you will be back on board.

It doesn't change that what happened is really a non story - what it changes is the optics.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 05, 2019, 06:34:02 am
It doesn't change that what happened is really a non story - what it changes is the optics.

Which part of 'what happened' ?  The PM reaching out to speak to his justice minister... or... a little later... two top female cabinet ministers resignin protest.  At some point it becomes a non-non-story.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 05, 2019, 09:39:29 am
It doesn't change that what happened is really a non story - what it changes is the optics.

Nothing to see here! Please disperse!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFl__NlOpA

-k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 09:49:19 am
Which part of 'what happened' ?  The PM reaching out to speak to his justice minister... or... a little later... two top female cabinet ministers resignin protest.  At some point it becomes a non-non-story.

The fallout is far worse than the actual 'scandal'.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 05, 2019, 09:56:17 am
The fallout is far worse than the actual 'scandal'.

I'm still mystified that some otherwise-smart people don't see why politicians interfering in a pending prosecution is problematic.


But of course, Trudeau's inept handling of the issue and ever-changing explanation has certainly not helped.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 10:07:10 am
I'm still mystified that some otherwise-smart people don't see why politicians interfering in a pending prosecution is problematic.

Because I realize that this is normal politics, and it happens all of the time.  Most politicians with their outrage meter not set to full have said as much.  It's not like they were asking for something illegal - that would be different.

Quote
But of course, Trudeau's inept handling of the issue and ever-changing explanation has certainly not helped.

 -k

For sure.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 05, 2019, 10:11:17 am
Because I realize that this is normal politics, and it happens all of the time.  Most politicians with their outrage meter not set to full have said as much.  It's not like they were asking for something illegal - that would be different.


1-Nonsense if this had been a Tory government that pulled this sheeyat you'd be screaming for resignations.
2-You need to read s.121 of the Criminal Code before you make a legal pronouncement. It is conceivable a charge could be layed under this section. 5 former AG's are pressuring the government  in this regard and if Trudeau keeps manifesting such wilful arrogance as to what he did this may establish sufficient grounds to show he violated s.121 deliberately. He needs to shut up. I can not imagine anyone advising him at this juncture is a lawyer. No lawyer advising him would have allowed him to comment as he has for the last week or so incriminating himself.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 05, 2019, 10:14:12 am
Because I realize that this is normal politics, and it happens all of the time.  For sure.

Do provide an example of a standing government's Prime Minister or Premier trying to pressure the Crown to drop a criminal trial from proceeding. Provide examples of how normal this is. Good luck. No its not normal politics. Don't be absurd. It has never happened in the history of Canada's criminal system.

There have been charges and convictions of influence peddling but NEVER where the PM let alone the Privy Council were the ones engaged in the influence peddling. You need to read up on what you refer to because you are not in touch with reality let alone case law.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 05, 2019, 10:15:52 am
What does that have to do with what I said?

Nothing, which is not surprising. You prefer speculation over facts. Maybe you can write a miniseries.

Nonsense. You call what JWR said speculation because it doesn't conform to your partisan bias in favour of Trudeau's calling his influence peddling "simple pressuring that was misunderstood".
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 10:16:09 am
1-Nonsense if this had been a Tory government that pulled this sheeyat you'd be screaming for resignations.


Apparently you don't know my posting history at MLW....
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 10:16:36 am
Do provide an example of a standing government's Prime Minister or Premier trying to pressure the Crown to drop a criminal trial from proceeding.

That's not what happened.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 05, 2019, 10:27:06 am
Perhaps stop wasting time, or slip over to mlw where it is much more acceptable.

For someone who does not read or care what I write you keep responding.

By the way the arrogance, presuming what is acceptable on the forum, got one word for you Omni----ahahahahahahahaah.

Its a long word. You may not want to read it.

Stop being so petulant. Your fearless leader is an idiot, got caught engaged in unethical sleeze bag influence peddling and now has his cabinet resigning.

You want to sulk about it go ahead.

Got news for you, telling the world let alone moi any reality you can't handle is unacceptable is a hoot. Please tell me more.

Is it acceptable to violate s.121 of the Criminal Code?

Is it acceptable to place yourself as Lord Justin did in a conflict of interest?

Do you think its acceptable for a non partisan civil servant to pressure a Minister into considering the Prime Minister's moods let alone non legal political considerations to try stop a trial?

Oh go on. Explain why you think its appropriate for corporations to be treated with a double standard. Go on.

Stop sulking and defend him.

This crap you and Impact play that you can't say anything because its speculation is a gigantic crock of manure.

The two of you have not a clue how to defend what Trudeau did so you say its speculation?

Speculation? Lol. Yah after he admitted in public not once but many times trying to pressure JWR to consider partisan factors not allowed for her to consider in her AG role, you want to call that speculation? Its a little late for that. The Privy Council head and Trudeau already admitted what they did.

At this point saying its not illegal is a farsical response.

This is about conflict of interest and ethics. Hiding behind the word "its legal" does not undo what it is and why no politician should engage in it.

Or do you want to point to all the Prime Ministers and Premiers who have tried to hlt criminal proceedings after allowing the accused in that criminal proceeding to lobbying them not once but 80 times.

Do explain.

Stop whining, stop sulking, stop acting like a petulant angry Liberal  and stand up and defend your beloved because I will tell  you something, at this point your refusal to deal with the issue is like pretending an elephant didn't **** on your carpet. That smell it just aint going anywhere no matter how much you call that elephant dung speculative.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 05, 2019, 10:37:58 am
Apparently you don't know my posting history at MLW....

Sure I do. You show a complete double standard. Lol. Yah I know you are completely bi partisan in your views.

Give it a rest.

Don't try tell me you hold all governments of Canada to the same standard.

However that is not really the issue. You are entitled to be a Liberal disciple. Just have the balls to admit it.

See me I have no problem admitting I think Trudeau is an idiot and a narcissistic, deeply flawed, moron who comes from a privileged
and sheltered world where no one said no to him. I also think he comes from a world where he was adored and so expects to be adored. I
also think he comes from a world where he was led to believe all women are week and in need of his protection and if they don't want his patronization
he recoils in horror.

I don't think a narcissist like Trudeau can handle any world where someone does not think like him or adore him let alone where women would not
idolize him and never question him.

Its not an accident he can't deal with strong women, surrounds himself with effeminate men, walks like h e has a duck up his ass, and constantly contradicts himself.

See I say it right out in the open. He's a deeply flawed individual and the only reason he was elected is because at this point our politicians are so devoid of personality and pizzazz that some pot heads voted him in thinking his youthful vigor would sweep the nation.

Now we are faced with Mr. Dimples about to inherit the country.

I am starting an elect Celine Dion campaign.

Now you go back to adoring Lord Justin. I have other Liberals to crush. 

You know I will say this, dealing with Trudeau supporters is like dealing with bubble wrap....pop pop pop pop.

It reminds me teenagers and pimples.




Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2019, 12:16:13 pm
For someone who does not read or care what I write you keep responding.

By the way the arrogance, presuming what is acceptable on the forum, got one word for you Omni----ahahahahahahahaah.

Its a long word. You may not want to read it.

Stop being so petulant. Your fearless leader is an idiot, got caught engaged in unethical sleeze bag influence peddling and now has his cabinet resigning.

You want to sulk about it go ahead.

Got news for you, telling the world let alone moi any reality you can't handle is unacceptable is a hoot. Please tell me more.

Is it acceptable to violate s.121 of the Criminal Code?

Is it acceptable to place yourself as Lord Justin did in a conflict of interest?

Do you think its acceptable for a non partisan civil servant to pressure a Minister into considering the Prime Minister's moods let alone non legal political considerations to try stop a trial?

Oh go on. Explain why you think its appropriate for corporations to be treated with a double standard. Go on.

Stop sulking and defend him.

This crap you and Impact play that you can't say anything because its speculation is a gigantic crock of manure.

The two of you have not a clue how to defend what Trudeau did so you say its speculation?

Speculation? Lol. Yah after he admitted in public not once but many times trying to pressure JWR to consider partisan factors not allowed for her to consider in her AG role, you want to call that speculation? Its a little late for that. The Privy Council head and Trudeau already admitted what they did.

At this point saying its not illegal is a farsical response.

This is about conflict of interest and ethics. Hiding behind the word "its legal" does not undo what it is and why no politician should engage in it.

Or do you want to point to all the Prime Ministers and Premiers who have tried to hlt criminal proceedings after allowing the accused in that criminal proceeding to lobbying them not once but 80 times.

Do explain.

Stop whining, stop sulking, stop acting like a petulant angry Liberal  and stand up and defend your beloved because I will tell  you something, at this point your refusal to deal with the issue is like pretending an elephant didn't **** on your carpet. That smell it just aint going anywhere no matter how much you call that elephant dung speculative.

Again mostly nonsense and your s.121 doesn't apply. Keep a tryin'.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 05, 2019, 01:22:57 pm
I checked the new Ipsos political poll. The Conservatives have opened an 8 point lead on the Liberals. At this rate, Canada may be looking at a Conservative majority in the fall.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 01:23:27 pm
oh my - another resignation - more to fuel the ConMedia and ilk's obsession with a fake scandal. Apparently, the other 32 Cabinet Ministers are said to be even more united now that the 2 'closest of friends' have chosen to take their own leave. That's uhhh, 33 Cabinet Ministers (including the PM) versus a couple of bffs! Oh waldo... did you (and others) just go there?

speaking of fueling  ;D

Quote from: Finance Minister Bill Morneau
Jane Philpott is a close personal friend of Jody Wilson-Raybould. She took a decision, I respect her decision. She was a good colleague, and she’ll take the decision that makes the most sense to her

apparently, Raitt took exception - so emotional!

(https://i.imgur.com/rpKRWqp.png)

should tomorrow Butts' testimony not continue to favour the fake scandal narrative, well... Jody's believers will be out in full force continuing to speak, 'Jody's truth'!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 01:43:59 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Q9neXCO.png)

yabut waldo, what about any recognized Indigenous leaders... other than some spoken alignment with 'Jody's truth', have any of them come out to directly criticize the Trudeau government? If not, why not, hey!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 02:01:02 pm
wait, what... ever the slightest chink in the ConMedia onslaught!

(https://i.imgur.com/mHixOkM.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2019, 02:02:29 pm
oh my - another resignation - more to fuel the ConMedia and ilk's obsession with a fake scandal. Apparently, the other 32 Cabinet Ministers are said to be even more united now that the 2 'closest of friends' have chosen to take their own leave. That's uhhh, 33 Cabinet Ministers (including the PM) versus a couple of bffs! Oh waldo... did you (and others) just go there?

speaking of fueling  ;D

apparently, Raitt took exception - so emotional!

(https://i.imgur.com/rpKRWqp.png)

should tomorrow Butts' testimony not continue to favour the fake scandal narrative, well... Jody's believers will be out in full force continuing to speak, 'Jody's truth'!
Lisa Raitt is 100% correct. Cabinet Ministers are required to show public consensus, since they are the government itself. When a minister doesn't agree with the cabinet's position on an issue, if they are principled, then they must step down. Invoking her emotions as a weapon against her is a sexist move AT BEST. This is never an argument invoked against men in government. Not even against emotional trainwrecks like Trump.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2019, 02:03:58 pm
waldo, you are seriously grasping at straws. You need to recognize how damaging this is to Trudeau.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 02:11:13 pm
wait, what... ever the slightest chink in the ConMedia onslaught!

(https://i.imgur.com/mHixOkM.png)

oh my... another chink?

(https://i.imgur.com/03Bym2s.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 02:16:50 pm
When a minister doesn't agree with the cabinet's position on an issue, if they are principled, then they must step down.

I guess since JWR (Justice Minister/AG) wouldn't express her personal view on DPAs (directly during Justice Committee testimony or even before a related Senate committee taking up the DPA related bill portions), following your lead, one can't ascertain if her refusal to resign over that 3 month period... was because she had no principles - yes?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on March 05, 2019, 03:55:50 pm
oh my... another chink?

(https://i.imgur.com/03Bym2s.png)

Using Micheal Coren to make your point is really funny.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 05, 2019, 04:50:05 pm
1-Nonsense if this had been a Tory government that pulled this sheeyat you'd be screaming for resignations.

In case you missed it, little boy Andrew has been screaming for resignations for weeks.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 05, 2019, 04:53:51 pm
Beside the committee meeting tomorrow morning (10am) with Gerry Butts testifying, we now have one in the afternoon (2pm) with:
• Nathalie G. Drouin, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada
• Michael Wernick, Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet
 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 05, 2019, 04:58:11 pm
Using Micheal Coren to make your point is really funny.
What is funnier is the notion people who don't worship the progressive view of "feminism" or "aboriginal rights" don't care about them. That is the problem with progressives. They are quick to talk about to accept "her truth" when it suits them but when someone expresses an opinion they disagree with they start screaming "homophobe/transphobe/racist/misogynist/denier" because they don't want to accept that reasonable people can have different opinions.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2019, 05:10:36 pm
Beside the committee meeting tomorrow morning (10am) with Gerry Butts testifying, we now have one in the afternoon (2pm) with:
• Nathalie G. Drouin, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada
• Michael Wernick, Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet

I've been looking fwd to hear just what Butts has to say on the issue but now we get more. Should be an interesting day.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 05, 2019, 06:24:49 pm
Because I realize that this is normal politics, and it happens all of the time.

Yes it is normal, & yes it happens all the time.  But it shouldn't.  It almost always happens behind closed doors, & people with power usually get away with it.  Harper became arrogant & foolish & his bullying politics came out in the open & the government lost an election over it.

A PM will punish an MP for not falling in line as they often do, & the MP/Minister will usually STFU & take it.  More often instead the Minister will bow to the PM's will because they want to kiss their boss' ass & care more about their career than their ethics.  At least from what I've seen so far, JWR cared more about her ethics than her career, & risked being removed from her post for doing her job, & when she was removed she didn't just STFU & take it, she stood up for herself & blew the whistle & has brought the PMO to its knees.  They messed with the wrong person, she is one tough SOB.

Let's see what Butts has to say & reserve final judgement.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2019, 06:36:52 pm
What is funnier is the notion people who don't worship the progressive view of "feminism" or "aboriginal rights" don't care about them. That is the problem with progressives. They are quick to talk about to accept "her truth" when it suits them but when someone expresses an opinion they disagree with they start screaming "homophobe/transphobe/racist/misogynist/denier" because they don't want to accept that reasonable people can have different opinions.

The Trudeau gov't has probably been pandering to this attitude somewhat, and it's going to come back to bite them in the ass when they characterize JWR as a liar, emotional, not a team player, etc.

Although I do disagree with you on how widespread this issue is...  I think there are activists and SJWs with this attitude, but not the general public who are left-leaning.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2019, 06:39:53 pm
Lisa Raitt is 100% correct. Cabinet Ministers are required to show public consensus, since they are the government itself. When a minister doesn't agree with the cabinet's position on an issue, if they are principled, then they must step down. Invoking her emotions as a weapon against her is a sexist move AT BEST. This is never an argument invoked against men in government. Not even against emotional trainwrecks like Trump.

Waldo has no issues whatsoever with "manslpaining" or sexist attitudes when it suits his agenda ...  look at his interactions with "Ms. Kimmy". 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 05, 2019, 06:49:47 pm
If the Liberals were really smart and Machiavellian, they'd dump Trudeau as leader, rally behind JWR and reinforce the whole folk hero narrative around her, make her leader, shift a few of their policies a bit more towards the center, and ride out of the upcoming election with another majority.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2019, 06:54:55 pm
If the Liberals were really smart and Machiavellian, they'd dump Trudeau as leader, rally behind JWR and reinforce the whole folk hero narrative around her, make her leader, shift a few of their policies a bit more towards the center, and ride out of the upcoming election with another majority.

Ha. May I suggest you stick to your more sensible idea of waiting to hear Butts etal.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2019, 06:55:50 pm
If the Liberals were really smart and Machiavellian, they'd dump Trudeau as leader, rally behind JWR and reinforce the whole folk hero narrative around her, make her leader, shift a few of their policies a bit more towards the center, and ride out of the upcoming election with another majority.

Too risky...   they will wait it out...   throw some staffers under the bus if they absolutely have to and hope for the best.

JWR and Jane Phillpot were supposed to be Liberal bright lights...  and they had to leave on account of a lack of ethics within the gov't.   I suspect the same old clowns are running the Liberal circus behind the scenes.  And we know how ethical they were in the past....
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2019, 07:02:12 pm
Too risky...   they will wait it out...   throw some staffers under the bus if they absolutely have to and hope for the best.

JWR and Jane Phillpot were supposed to be Liberal bright lights...  and they had to leave on account of a lack of ethics within the gov't.   I suspect the same old clowns are running the Liberal circus behind the scenes.  And we know how ethical they were in the past....

You prefer the Scheer/Faith Goldy approach do ya?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 07:52:19 pm
Using Micheal Coren to make your point is really funny.
What is funnier is the notion people who don't worship the progressive view of "feminism" or "aboriginal rights" don't care about them. That is the problem with progressives.

c'mon Boges... if ConMediaMan Coren is questioning... that was the point you clearly missed! TimG, your deep-thinking is too deep to apply to what Coren said!

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 07:55:21 pm
You prefer the Scheer/Faith Goldy approach do ya?

speaking of the mouse-that-roared, Scheer is really making inroads!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziiy2BP.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Boges on March 05, 2019, 08:07:30 pm
c'mon Boges... if ConMediaMan Coren is questioning... that was the point you clearly missed! TimG, your deep-thinking is too deep to apply to what Coren said!

You've clearly never heard Coren say anything since Sun News went under.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 05, 2019, 08:21:35 pm
speaking of the mouse-that-roared, Scheer is really making inroads!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziiy2BP.png)

Thankfully, Canada is not the USA, and most people tend to vote along party lines. In any case, the Liberals are in trouble:

"A majority of Canadians are keeping tabs on the SNC-Lavalin affair and that doesn’t bode well for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, according to a new Ipsos poll conducted exclusively for Global News.

If an election were held tomorrow, Trudeau would receive only 31 per cent of the decided popular vote — down three points from a couple of weeks ago — while Conservative Party Leader Andrew Scheer would receive 40 per cent, according to the poll of 1,000 Canadians carried out between March 1 and March 4.

That’s the biggest lead the Conservatives have had since the previous election campaign — and that’s despite the fact that the polling data was obtained before Treasury Board President Jane Philpott resigned from Trudeau’s cabinet on Monday, following in the heels of former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould and principal secretary Gerald Butts."


source:

https://globalnews.ca/news/5021267/trudeau-approval-rating-snc-lavalin-wilson-raybould/
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2019, 08:38:37 pm
You've clearly never heard Coren say anything since Sun News went under.

you're correct there... are you saying Coren has had an epiphany... is he a changed man now?

as an aside, for the neophyte so excited over a single poll... something like a 4-week rolling average offers additional insight... and, of course, aggregates.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2019, 08:49:40 pm
You prefer the Scheer/Faith Goldy approach do ya?

Those are my only 2 options?   ::)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2019, 08:51:16 pm
Those are my only 2 options?   ::)

To win government?  Yes
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2019, 08:54:02 pm
To win government?  Yes

I’ve never voted for either of those parties....   so I guess I’ll continue that trend....
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2019, 08:59:11 pm
I’ve never voted for either of those parties....   so I guess I’ll continue that trend....

Well at least now the leader of the other potential (long shot) party has a seat in the house.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 06, 2019, 02:23:02 am
Scheer and Singh are both weenies, which is Trudeau's biggest asset at this point.  Rona Ambrose was much better than Scheer as opposition leader.  Heck, Raitt is handling this better than Scheer.  Mulcair was much better than Singh as well. At least Singh had the sense to call for a public inquiry rather than going straight to demanding a resignation and calling the RCMP, as Scheer did.  Bad strategy. Reminds me of the episode of "The Office" where Michael Scott is taking an acting improv class, and every scene he acts, he pulls a gun, because "the most dramatic thing that can happen in a scene is, somebody pulls a gun!"   You can't always reach straight for the gun, Scheer, you hapless mook.

CBC now reporting that Trudeau is considering a "statement of contrition" regarding how the SNC situation was handled.

I gather Liberal boosters are hoping that Butt Man will arrive and save the day tomorrow.  We'll see how that goes.


Because I realize that this is normal politics, and it happens all of the time.  Most politicians with their outrage meter not set to full have said as much.  It's not like they were asking for something illegal - that would be different.

Which politicians said that?

One problem with this "it happens all the time" is that people make the same argument for shoplifting or cheating on taxes. Maybe it does happen, but that doesn't actually make it okay and people still get punished if they get caught.

The second problem is that if you are seen to be bending the rules to get SNC-Lavalin out of a jam, why can't you bend the rules for the next person who's stuck in a jam?  Why couldn't they, you know, help Meng Wanzhou? Send her home to China instead of holding her for extradition?  Hey, why not? Better than getting into some kind of trade war or diplomatic dispute over this, right? If we can bend the rules for SNC-Lavalin, why not bend the rules for Meng Wanzhou?  If you tell China that "we're a nation of laws, and we are holding Meng Wanzhou because we have to," and they say "really? What about this SNC stuff? Why can't you help us out like you helped them out?" ...what do you tell them? 


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 02:48:07 am
The second problem is that if you are seen to be bending the rules to get SNC-Lavalin out of a jam, why can't you bend the rules for the next person who's stuck in a jam?

I trust you've recovered from your 'own goal' and now realize just who/what Crown Prosecution is, hey! In any case, have you read the legal assessment on why SNC-Lavalin was not offered a DPA negotiation? Did you read the first legal assessment that intended to offer SNC-Lavalin a DPA negotiation? I'd ask you if you read JWR's legal assessment for not wanting to reconsider that 2nd legal assessment... I'd ask... but, apparently, there's some uncertainty if one actually exists. The point waldo, get to the point! Ya ya, the point is legal assessments are regularly subject to possible change... depending on... . Notwithstanding, as I've stated now several times, that second assessment wasn't binding until an actual related court proceeding commenced.

again, most unfortunate that you still haven't recognized DPAs aren't a, "get out of jail free card"! I heard some nattering ConMedia "contributor" talking up how DPA legislation was only brought in to allow, "deep-pocket contributors" to get off! The Scheer idiocy of the guy!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 06, 2019, 09:43:31 am
speaking of the mouse-that-roared, Scheer is really making inroads!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/Ziiy2BP.png)
Oh look, an out-of-context leadership poll. Do you have a poll on voting intentions, perhaps?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 06, 2019, 11:28:29 am
From what I've heard so far from Butts, I'm thinking the discrepancies between his version of events and that of JWR should require her (and a few others) to be called back in for further testimony. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 06, 2019, 11:56:14 am
From what I've heard so far from Butts, I'm thinking the discrepancies between his version of events and that of JWR should require her (and a few others) to be called back in for further testimony.

The Liberals in the committee want the Liberals to have the last word, seems they won't allow her back, because they believe so strongly in ethics and justice  ::)

Now it's a he-said she-said.  We need all the emails/texts etc.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 12:08:29 pm
Oh look, an out-of-context leadership poll

no more out-of-context than any other poll asking participants to name their preferred Prime Minister
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 12:19:05 pm
The Liberals in the committee want the Liberals to have the last word, seems they won't allow her back, because they believe so strongly in ethics and justice  ::)

Now it's a he-said she-said.  We need all the emails/texts etc.

JWR was afforded 4 full hours to present 'Jody's truth'. The Opposition Parties, by design, are hell-bent on dragging this out, full force... striving for any opportunity to directly pit ruling government members against each other... relishing any opportunity for personalized accusation and charges of lying - well beyond your trivialized, "she said/they said".

the waldo has clearly, many times over, highlighted the crux of the failing "Jody's truth". As so rightly articulated by Mr. Butts, why did she not come forward and give formal notice/resign in September... in October... in November... in December? Why did "Jody's truth" only come out... after the Cabinet shuffle?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 12:38:49 pm
a simple plan for a small tidy shuffle!

Brison leaving government/Treasury Board (President) on his want to leave government service: Philpott to fill the Brison vacated position notably based on her prior position as the Vice_Chair of the Treasury Board; JWR to shift to Minister of Indigenous Services, filling in for Philpott; David Lametti to fill position of Justice Minister/AG notably based on his prior legal background/positions. A simple plan for a small tidy shuffle... one that never would have occurred if not for the 'forced hand' precipitated by Brison's imminent departure. Oh my! One that had absolutely nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin 'file'! Oh my!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 06, 2019, 01:33:10 pm
no more out-of-context than any other poll asking participants to name their preferred Prime Minister
It's interesting that you use this as a proxy for voting intention when there are polls that ask voting intention.

I mean, it's not actually interesting. You're doing it because it shows the results you want, whilst the voting intention polls show the Liberals getting hammered.

In any case, it's still early. Scheer has plenty of time to hang himself and the Liberals are supposed to announce something about pharmacare today.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 06, 2019, 01:35:00 pm
Nobody believes a word out of the PM or PMO.  Smoke and mirrors.  We should be careful to believe JWR, a cunning lawyer and politician, on her word.  It will come down to the evidence in writing.

(https://i0.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/2019-02-13.jpg?resize=700%2C570&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 06, 2019, 02:33:43 pm
The Liberals overruled a motion to produce relevant emails, texts, etc from Butts.  There wiĺl be no paper trail produced to get to the bottom of what actually happened.

Which, for me,  certainly adds more creedance to JWR's testimon and makes Butts' credibility uncertain at best.   Buts is covering for the PMO, as I said he would.

If the PMO did nothing wrong, then let's see all the relevant documents.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 02:59:10 pm
It's interesting that you use this as a proxy for voting intention when there are polls that ask voting intention.

I mean, it's not actually interesting. You're doing it because it shows the results you want, whilst the voting intention polls show the Liberals getting hammered.

In any case, it's still early. Scheer has plenty of time to hang himself and the Liberals are supposed to announce something about pharmacare today.

it is what it is - it provided a snapshot of the last week of a rolling 4 week coverage of participants voting for their respective preference for Prime Minister... which is exactly what I stated. I also stated that this same 'rolling week' approach or aggregate polling offers additional insight - certainly more than a single poll snapshot that had the member gleefully touting it.

look, I appreciate your beloved NDP party/leader has become a non-entity... more so now than ever. Please, please - don't take your frustrations out on the waldo - thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 03:00:23 pm
Nobody believes a word out of the PM or PMO.

agreed, your select circle is ScheeringTight!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 03:07:13 pm
The Liberals overruled a motion to produce relevant emails, texts, etc from Butts.  There wiĺl be no paper trail produced to get to the bottom of what actually happened.

Which, for me,  certainly adds more creedance to JWR's testimon and makes Butts' credibility uncertain at best.   Buts is covering for the PMO, as I said he would.

If the PMO did nothing wrong, then let's see all the relevant documents.

where was the ScheerCon motion to have JWR produce same, hey? Did that absence also bolster your, 'creedance(sic)' evaluation? I mean, c'mon - surely, your presumption is some gotcha moments between the PMO & JWR... why aren't you asking for JWR's same, 'relevant emails, texts, etc'? Ain't she gonna be on the send/receive/distribution of all that relevant correspondence you're so clamoring for? GDamnit, JWR is covering for the PMO!!!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 04:29:49 pm
guys, guys... why your double standard - your one-way selective call for, "relevant emails, texts, etc"? Just think, if we had Jody's stuff we might be able to shed light on why she, per testimony today, refused to allow the DPP to send the legal assessment to the PCO? Oh my, why try to hide that? Equally, we might be able to find out why there was no openness to having an independent 3rd party jurist offer opinion... particularly for brand new legislation, never applied and without regulations and available precedent! Is JWR that much of a 'know-it-all'?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 06, 2019, 04:45:22 pm
10:05-08 a.m.: MPs debate and vote down a motion to put Mr. Butts under oath, which has not happened at the committee in 25 years. “I can assure all members of the committee that I will tell the truth,” Mr. Butts says

https://youtu.be/IdtKbq3Omkw
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 05:09:36 pm
10:05-08 a.m.: MPs debate and vote down a motion to put Mr. Butts under oath, which has not happened at the committee in 25 years. “I can assure all members of the committee that I will tell the truth,” Mr. Butts says

instead of offering up your ignorant and stupid video, why didn't you take the time to note that no persons giving testimony were asked to do so 'under oath'... not even St. Jody! And, that's right - the swearing in of a witness giving testimony hasn't occurred in 25 years... which, if applied, could be swearing an oath or making a solemn affirmation. You know, just like St. Jody... didn't!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 06, 2019, 06:35:32 pm
At first I thought Butt's explanation for her removal at Justice had the ring of truth. i.e. she was offered indigenous affairs but turned it down, however, the PM did not want set a precedent that ministers could avoid shuffles by refusing to leave. After about 5 minutes I realized this argument is complete nonsense because:

1) If you have a position to fill you look for volunteers. You don't choose someone and they say that if they turn it down they will be moved anyways *unless* you want the person out of the position the hold currently for some reason.

2) If a hypothetical cabinet minister needed to be removed the PM can just boot them out of cabinet if they did not want any alternate positions.  So there was no "precedent" being set.



Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 07:49:54 pm
At first I thought Butt's explanation for her removal at Justice had the ring of truth. i.e. she was offered indigenous affairs but turned it down, however, the PM did not want set a precedent that ministers could avoid shuffles by refusing to leave. After about 5 minutes I realized this argument is complete nonsense because:

1) If you have a position to fill you look for volunteers. You don't choose someone and they say that if they turn it down they will be moved anyways *unless* you want the person out of the position the hold currently for some reason.

2) If a hypothetical cabinet minister needed to be removed the PM can just boot them out of cabinet if they did not want any alternate positions.  So there was no "precedent" being set.

hasn't someone here repeatedly stated, 'Ministers serve at the pleasure of the PM'? I'm surprised you wouldn't expect selection by experience/background/merit would drive decision making in filling cabinet positions - go figure. As I stated:
a simple plan for a small tidy shuffle!

Brison leaving government/Treasury Board (President) on his want to leave government service: Philpott to fill the Brison vacated position notably based on her prior position as the Vice_Chair of the Treasury Board; JWR to shift to Minister of Indigenous Services, filling in for Philpott; David Lametti to fill position of Justice Minister/AG notably based on his prior legal background/positions. A simple plan for a small tidy shuffle... one that never would have occurred if not for the 'forced hand' precipitated by Brison's imminent departure. Oh my! One that had absolutely nothing to do with the SNC-Lavalin 'file'! Oh my!

please speak of MPs you're aware of who have refused to accept new cabinet assignments as a part of any government's cabinet shuffle... JWR's refusal necessitated the need to find an alternate replacement for Philpott's vacated Minister of Indigenous Services position - that was filled by Seamus O'Regan (leaving Veterans Affairs/Defence Ministry). That left the need to fill the Minister of Veterans Affairs vacancy; accordingly, JWR was moved to Veterans Affairs/Associate Minister of Defence.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 08:02:33 pm
Jane Philpott is being lauded by many for standing by JWR because they're good friends... Gerald Butts is being dismissed by many because he's been a friend of PM Trudeau for over 30 years

(https://i.imgur.com/4RGnHUk.gif)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 06, 2019, 08:03:46 pm
At first I thought Butt's explanation for her removal at Justice had the ring of truth. i.e. she was offered indigenous affairs but turned it down, however, the PM did not want set a precedent that ministers could avoid shuffles by refusing to leave. After about 5 minutes I realized this argument is complete nonsense because:

1) If you have a position to fill you look for volunteers. You don't choose someone and they say that if they turn it down they will be moved anyways *unless* you want the person out of the position the hold currently for some reason.

2) If a hypothetical cabinet minister needed to be removed the PM can just boot them out of cabinet if they did not want any alternate positions.  So there was no "precedent" being set.

I think the actual nonsense here is saying when you need a cabinet position filled you simply "look for volunteers". I suspect a much better approach would ne to look for people with experience pertinent to the position.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 06, 2019, 08:14:08 pm
JWR's refusal necessitated the need to find an alternate replacement for Philpott's vacated Minister of Indigenous Services position - that was filled by Seamus O'Regan (leaving Veterans Affairs/Defence Ministry). That left the need to fill the Minister of Veterans Affairs vacancy; accordingly, JWR was moved to Veterans Affairs/Associate Minister of Defence.
Huh? One minister out means one new minister in. They could have brought a back bencher to take on veterans affairs. There is absolutely no justification for moving a minister that did not want to move unless they wanted her gone. The issue now is Butts is obviously being deceptive because the only way his explanation makes sense is they wanted her out at justice for reasons unrelated to the shuffle. If he was willing to be honest he would have admitted that and explained exactly why he wanted her out.

It is also laughable that you continue to spout the tripe that ministers are appointed based on their ability. Outside of critical portfolios like finance, they are appointed based on gender/race/regional concerns first. If they happen to have relevant expertise then that happy bonus - not the objective.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 08:27:03 pm
Huh? One minister out means one new minister in. They could have brought a back bencher to take on veterans affairs. There is absolutely no justification for moving a minister that did not want to move unless they wanted her gone. The issue now is Butts obviously being deceptive because the only way his explanation makes sense is they wanted her out at justice for reasons unrelated to the shuffle. If he was willing to be honest he would have admitted that and explained exactly why he wanted her out.

no - it should be obvious, even to you, it's not a 'one-for-one'... you need to fill vacated positions caused by each successive move - duh! And yes, absolutely, as Butts stated, there was no want/willingness to allow a Minister a refusal right - setting/allowing such has precedent! Again, I'm still waiting for you to advise on your knowledge of any other MPs refusal to take on a new cabinet role... any MP, any government - still waiting.............

It is also laughable that you continue to spout the tripe that ministers are appointed based on their ability. Outside of critical portfolios like finance, they are appointed based on gender/race/regional concerns first. If they happen to have relevant expertise then that happy bonus - not the objective.

I said ability (actually I stated, 'experience/background/merit') should drive selection choices. Who was more qualified to replace Brison than Philpott... she having prior Treasury Board experience as the Vice-Chair of the Treasury Board? Who was more qualified (while giving an appropriate signal to its continued importance) to fill the vacated Philpott position at Indigenous Services - who other than JWR? Who was more qualified than David Lametti to take on the vacated positions at Justice/AG? Backbenchers... with no related/relevant experience and background???  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 06, 2019, 08:56:37 pm
I now address these comments Mr. Butt stated today that I enumerate.

A-Mr. Butt said the deferred prosecution has been badly mischaracterized as a get-out-of-jail-free card, instead of a way for companies to make amends while protecting innocent workers, shareholders and pensioners from being harmed.

This is a misleading statement by Butt. This is not about “companies”, it is about SNC Lavalin specifically and it is crucial everyone understand the issue is not about deferred prosecution agreements or whether they can be used, it is about what criteria should be considered if using one in this specific case, and whether the specific elements of the crime and the history of the company requesting it make it a reasonable proposition to consider.

The deferred prosecution agreement as a possible  alternative to plea bargaining or traditional criminal sentencing after a trial was passed into law on September 19, 2018. This law refers to it by the name “remediation agreement”. It can be considered with companies who engaged in “economic” crimes. If allowed it would suspend ongoing or outstanding criminal proceedings. It then would require the company to complete specified undertakings to avoid facing criminal charges and an actual criminal trial. Those undertakings are described as fines, remediation measures, enhanced reporting requirements and allowing independent 3rd party audits and reviews of the company’s compliance procedures.

The theory behind it is to encourage voluntary disclosure of misconduct by corporations for having committed criminal activities that probably would have otherwise not been detected by regulators. Its also supposed to hold an organization accountable for bad behaviour and to deter it from doing this kind of behaviour again.

The previous remediation agreement discussions in 2017 were general and never specific to Lavalin and its situation.

When this recent Liberal DPA law was passed it was not done with open discussion but at the last second inserted in an Omnibus bill to prevent discussion of it.

One must therefore ask, if it was business as usual, why did the Minister of Justice in a government Trudeau claimed would be open and transparent and never hide things in omnibus bills do just that and not introduce it and discuss it in Parliament and why was it not discussed on the floor if it was genuine and the Liberals had nothing to hide? Why did they even keep it secret from their own MP’s on the Legal Committee  before they passed it?  

Most importantly the DPA has many criteria that must be considered but Mr. Butt today only focused on the one consideration that coincidentally was one that coincides with the personal interests of Trudeau and his constituents.

Butt would have you believe he never read the dpa law and has no idea what other criteria had to be considered. BULL ****.

That law which he would know, says  to be eligible (not entitled, its not automatic entitlement, you must show cause why you are entitled) for a remediation agreement, the accused can not be a public body, trade union or municipality. It is also  limited to consideration for economic offences, i.e., bribery or fraud, not for crimes of death or bodily injury or would violate the Canadian Competition Act.

He would also know this dpa law would require BEFORE the AG or any prosecutor could enter into negotiations as to the specific conditions of the agreement as it pertains to the specific elements of the Lavalin case, these other conditions had to be met:

1-there is a reasonable prospect of conviction with respect to the offence (appears to apply in this specific Lavalin situation);

2-the conduct in question caused no “serious bodily harm or death or injury to national defence or national security”, and was NOT committed for “the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with a criminal organization or terrorist group; Lavalin is not considered a criminal organization or a terrorist group, but it did bribe as part of its conduct, Mummar Ghadafi and Libyan government officials who funded and ordered  terrorists to kill people and caused  serious bodily harm or death or injury to national defence or national security, by killing in his own country and in other countries allied with Canada thousands of persons who opposed his view, including the bombing of a passenger jet over Scotland and Libyan government soldiers and sponsored terrorists groups killed thousands in Chad, Niger, Dahomey, Malawi, Mali, Central African Republic, to name but a few countries);

3-negotiating the agreement must be “in the public interest and appropriate in the circumstances” -the question remains does the fact that people might but not necessarily lose their jobs if Lavalin was convicted (there is zero proof of that its speculated) over-ride the the public interest to be protected from the criminal activities of Lavalin as well one has to question whether the circumstances were appropriate for these reasons:
i-The accused lobbied the government 80 times for the DPA-why was someone with a direct vested interest in a specific dpa and part of an on-going criminal proceeding allowed to do this?
ii-The Prime Minister openly stated his concern for intervening and pushing for the DPA was on behalf of the constituents of his riding who might lose jobs-in so admitting this which was again repeated and confirmed by Mr. Butt today, they both acknowledged they knew they had a conflict of interest and it was inappropriate the PM and PMO have anything to do with any discussions as to the DPA because of that conflict; the conflict, was the interest attached to whether the persons in Trudeau’s riding could lose their job versus the need to protect all Canadians from crime and not undermine the neutrality of the court system and have it appear to take into consideration partisan or political concerns as criteria for its implementation.

4. The AG must consent to the negotiation agreement. Ms. Raybould said she made it clear she was against it. Mr. Butt today in effect called her a liar and said he never knew she was against it and yet testimony now shows Trudeau, who Butt spoke to constantly, the Privy Council head and Deputy Justice Minister all  knew she was against it and only  Butt did not know? He was this stupid and oblivious? How could he possibly not know Trudeau knew she was against it? Further if Butt did not know she was against it why would he and Trudeau ask for a second opinion? They clearly knew because if they did not know they would have had no need to ask for a second opinion.  According to Ms. Raybould the second opinion was explained to her to be a political device she could use to cover her own butt if there was controversy over using it. In fact the Privy Council head  said the same thing as did another PMO official who all said if she was worried about it, get a second opinion. How would they know but Butt not know she was not against it if they and he thought she was so worried she needed a second opinion?

5. Prosecutors under this new dpa law must also consider the circumstances in which the offence was brought to their attention and the attention of their investigative authorities. In this case, Lavalin did NOT come to the government voluntarily, they ONLY started asking for one, once they were told they would be charged. This kind of agreement contemplates a remorseful criminal taking initiative before they are told they will be prosecuted not after they are charged and not by trying to pressure the prosecutor through the government of the day but by approaching them directly so their intent is not clouded with the appearance of manipulation.

6. Next and this is where most lawyers not  just the former AG would not have been comfortable considering a dpa in this case and that is because she also had to consider:
a-the nature and gravity of this offence (and this includes whether this was a one time offence or part of a pattern of behaviour that keeps repeating) as well as the impact on victims-lets be clear, employees of Lavalin would not constitute the victims-victims are people who directly not indirectly were the target of the crime which in this case was and remains Lavalin shareholders, not its employees as well as the public at large or people harmed by the governments and government officials Lavalin bribed.  In the case of Lavalin shareholders, the directors and officers knowing the company would be charged, sold their shares of the company before the government announced it would proceed with criminal proceedings using their insider knowledge to sell their stocks before the values dropped.

On the day in late 2015 when it was announced Lavalin was charged its directors and officers had made sure to sell all their shares but the average shareholder not having that insider knowledge saw their stocks drop in value 15-30 percent as a result of the announcement.

They now have sued these officers and directors and the case (shareholder rights action) is still pending and would be directly prejudiced if Lavalin were able to avoid a criminal sentence and so for that reason alone the timing of the request for a dpa is WRONG because it will prejudice the outcome of their case and any other outstanding cases attached to Lavalin directly or indirectly;

b-the degree of involvement of senior officers of the organization must be considered which means, if it was just one individual, then the DPA makes sense, but the more wide spread the degree of involvement of senior officers, the less appropriate it becomes-certainly the insider trading done by the senior officers shows wide-spread corruption and a lack of ethics which then means a DPA would not be appropriate to try address-dpas are tailored for isolated cases of behaviour not such advanced and wide spread corruption where something more severe needs to be done particularily where the behaviour is well entrenched and repetitive which I will prove is further on;

c- whether Lavalin took disciplinary action including termination of any persons involved-the answer here is a loud NO they have not; NO disciplinary actions were taken although representatives did resign but they were NOT fired or disciplined, they left on their own consent after arranging sweet heart severance packages for themselves;

d-whether Lavalin has made reparations or taken measures to remedy the behaviour that led to the charges-again the answer is a loud NO they have not; they wrote up one code of conduct that was never enforced or had an apparatus created to enforce it;
 
e-whether Lavalin has identified or expressed a willingness to identify any person involved in the wrongdoings-again the answer is a loud NO they have not;
 
f-whether the organization — or any of its representatives was either:
i-convicted of an offence or sanctioned by a regulatory body;
ii- entered into a previous remediation agreement or other settlement, in Canada or elsewhere, for similar conduct;
ii-had any of its or any of its representatives alleged to have committed any other offences.

Here is where it gets funny. Isn’t it interesting Mr. Butt, Trudeau, the Privy Council head did not know any of the above had to be considered by the AG.  They would have you believe they had no idea of any of the above let alone i, ii, iii. This would mean Trudeau, Butt, the Privy Council head would have you believe they were not aware of the following public record with Lavalin which  led up to the Libyan charges that would make a dpa inappropriate because of repeat questionable  behaviour:

i-the McGiLL University Health Centre Scandal; in 2010, SNC-Lavalin was part of the consortium that won the $1.3 billion contract to design and build the Montreal University Health Centre's Glen Site, and maintain it until 2044- the  contract eventually became the subject of a criminal investigation, and CEO Pierre Huhaime, Executive VP Riadh Ben Aissa and VP Steven Roy were all charged with bribery; Duhaime was forced out in 2012 after an audit found disturbing deficiencies and he was then arrested for making secret payments to sell company as a bribe to get the conrract. He pled guilty  Feb.1, 2012 to assisting a public civil servant commit breach of trust. He was let off of 14 other charges. Aissa was charged in 2014 with 16 counts including fraud for 22.5 milion worth of contracts in that same deal and plead guilty to one charge of using a forged document. Roy also was arrested in 2014 but acquitted;

ii-Bangladesh Scandal; pursuant to an RCMP raid in September of 2012 in regards to a Padma bridge project in Bangladesh at the request of the World Bank’s anti-graft (anti bribery) unit, this led to the World Bank banning SNC-Lavalin in April of 2013 from being able to bid on any of its projects for 10 years for bribing officials in Bangladesh and Cambodia. As a result of this investigation employees disclosed a secret accounting code used to bribe people across Africa and Asia to get projects. Kevin Wallace, who was the Senior Vice President of SNC-Lavalin International Inc., Ramesh Shah and Mohammad Ismail, SNC-Lavalin employees, Bangladeshi lobbyist Abul Hasan Chowdhury and Zulfiquar Ali Bhuiyan, a Canadian citizen with business ties in Bangladesh were all charged with bribery. Wallace, Shah and Bhuiyan were acquitted in Feb. 2017 after an Ontario Superior Court justice threw out wiretap evidence against them. Ismail and Ismail and Chowdhury were acquitted as well;

iii-Libya Scandal;  Lavalin had been doing business in Libya for years, then in November 2011, shortly after the fall of Moammar Gadhafi, a consultant hired by SNC-Lavalin was arrested in Mexico, accused of trying to smuggle smuggle Gadhafi's son and other family members out of Libya and into Mexico. That individual Cyndy Vanier spent 18 months in a Mexican jail before being released. She always said her contract with SNC-Lavalin was to help facilitate the travel of SNC employees in and out of Libya. She was never charged in Canada. However in February of 2015, the RCMP charged SNC-Lavalin and two of its subsidiaries with corruption and fraud in connection with many years of dealings by the company in Libya. To be specific bribing of Libyan officials for construction contracts between 2001 and 2011.

In fact bribery scandals and allegations with Lavalin in and outside Canada date back to 1995 and have been continuous inside and outside Canada.  So how with such a lengthy history of questionable behaviour would anyone consider a dpa, let alone discuss one? How would the the repeat  pattern of behaviour alone NOT cause any prosecutor  or politician for that matter to even consider a dpa or for that matter even plea bargain  given the repetitive nature of these bribery allegations?

7. All the above said, to qualify for eligibility for a DPA under this new law, as well,  Lavalin would also need to accept responsibility for its wrong doings, stop them, accept full responsibility for a history of bribery dating back to 1995 and here is where it gets absurd because they can’t and won’t do it, to qualify for the  DPA  they would also have to pay back all money they earned from any projects they were awarded where bribery was involved, not to mention to put into immediate practice a  compliance program requiring every bid they make to be reviewed by an independent third party.  avalin can not and will not do that so any discussion of the DPA as only being based on potential loss of jobs is absolute and utter bull ****. It has nothing to do with all the above criteria that must also be addressed and considered as well and Mr, Butt, Trudeau, the Privy Council head were well aware of-they passed that bloody law and those considerations that would be required for the dpa.
 
So when Butt tried to pose the dpa as being done in other places that was bull ****.  In fact it was only used in the US last year 40 times and that should tell you how narrow an application it has when its used and keep in mind in the US it can also be used by individuals on any kind of criminal case.

In fact Very few cases  in the US or UK have qualified for a dpa.

2-Mr. Butt said the Canadian government moved ahead with the option to fall in line with the law in other countries like the United States and Britain, he said.

What Butt did not say was a dpa has never been used in the US or Britain for such a type of case or as a result of a criminal lobbying the government of the day to directly pressure the prosecutor to use the dpa. It's never happened in the UK or Britain so his statement is misleading.

3- Butt repeated several times invoking the fact he was from Cape Breton that his sole concern was potential loss of jobs and this loss of jobs was a legitimate public policy concern to discuss. So why did he know that loss of jobs was a "legitimate public policy concern" but no other considerations his DPA law obliged his AG to consider? More to the point how did  he not know and still does not know that under his dpa law his government passed, potential loss of jobs is NOT a criteria layed out as a legitimate consideration to add to s.718 of the Criminal Code when considering a criminal sentence.? He claimed he got a legal opinion before testifying today and he did not know this?

Let us be clear. Mr. Butt would have you believe the job loss issue was the only consideration he was concerned with when discussing the DPA being used and had no idea of the content of the DPA law passed and what it said needed to be considered as well. BULL ****. 

Mr. Butt’s job, his very function is to get Trudeau re-elected. He would have you believe he never discussed his major concern was not the loss of jobs, but the back lash a loss of jobs could cost in terms of political support in Quebec.

He would have you believe the job loss concern is not attached to the concern it would lose votes for Trudeau.

He would have you believe  he had no idea his Prime Minister and himself had a direct conflict of interest which should have prevented them from having any conversation about the issue with the AG.

He would have you believe  he is so stupid he did not consider this conflict of interest. He would also have you believe you he is so stupid and oblivious to what’s going on around him, he had no idea JWR rejected the dpa  while the Privy Council and Trudeau knew this and the Deputy Justice Minister knew this even though they all spoke to Butt about this issue constantly. BULL ****.

D-Mr. Butt said Ms. Raybould never told him she felt pressured… he claims he only met with her twice.  Mr. Butt in saying the above would have you believe he is an idiot and you are to believe him.  So he would have you believe after 80 meetings with Lavalin and himself and the PM, Ms. Raybould didn't know about all these meetings and when the Privy Head told her Trudeau was about to blow up and everyone was worried about the fall out, she would not feel pressured.  Then he would have you believe when he asked for a SECOND opinion well hey it wasn't a second opinion since she had none yet and its normal to tell someone to get another opinion its not to second guess any other opinion-she was so stupid and retarded she needed to have another lawyer explain to her what a dpa was, what her role was as the AG, what she could and could not consider because its a new thing. Yes indeed. A former Crown Prosecutor would have no idea what it is when considering whether a criminal trial should proceed and need a former Supreme Court Judge to tell her.

This is for those of you who are not lawyers, is like telling a lawyer they would need to speak to another lawyer to tell them whether murder means killing someone or a doctor would need to consult another doctor to find out what a hemmeroid was. That is how stupid a comment it was and he's alienated any lawyer in the Liberal caucus who had any doubts in his favour.

Also interestingly, when asked for his notes of his conversations  with JWR this man who keeps meticulous notes said he has none and couldn't remember his conversations.

Also today the Liberals announced they will not allow access to his records or allow Raybould  to reappear to address the conversations they had which Butt brought up for the first time today.

That again coming from a PM who claims to be transparent and open but has deliberately prevented this alleged inquiry from asking vital questions and considering vital evidence. Quite the transparency.

In summary the problem with Butt’s narrative narrative in addition to the above was:

a-he thinks its acceptable a subject of an on-going criminal investigation can lobby the government to pressure the prosecutor when a dpa is not designed to be the result of lobbying but a direct voluntary request initiated by the accused;

b-why the dpa was slipped in at the last second in an Omnibus bill and the Liberals now refuse to let Raybould address allegations Butt made for the first time about her, and will not allow her or  him to disclose the memos of their conversations or others had with Raybould  when this is a government Trudeau loudly boasted would be ethical and transparent politician allowing no one special favours when he ran for office;

c-Mr. Butt would have us believe he is so stupid he had no idea offering JWR the Ministry of Indian Affairs would be an insult to her or the Veteran Affairs posting would not be considered a demotion by her and she could not stay at the Justice Ministry and have someone else take over Vet Affairs and/or Indian Affairs-all of that escaped his thoughts or considerations which means he is one incredibly stupid strategist or a liar;

d-Mr. Butt believes Canadians are so stupid that they would believe JWR was removed not because of her stand on Lavalin, but ONLY because as he said when they moved Philpott to Treasury they magically had to move her to Indian Affairs and then went oh gee that won’t work so we won't leave her and move someone else, we will move her to Veteran Affairs…no other reason. No one else could handle Veteran Affairs but her. They didn't have one other candidate to fill that Ministry and wait, being shuffled from Justice to Veterans Affairs would not be considered a demotion-again that is like saying you remove someone from being a surgeon to a gp  but she wouldn't consider it a demotion let alone he's so stupid he could not anticipate that kind of reaction not just with the Indian Ministry but the Veteran Affairs position and now you are so stupid that you believe he is that stupid;

e- Butt and Trudeau believe you are so stupid to  believe they had no idea they had a conflict of interest and placed their partisan political interest of worrying about losing Quebec votes from job loss, ahead of all the considerations the AG had to consider when determining if a DPA let alone a plea bargain was appropriate/ They now push this script of idiocy and pose their partisan considerations being placed before the country's best needs as acceptable and righteous and what we want from our PM.
 
Where do we go  with this government has established we should not sentence any criminal if that sentence could impact negatively on the government of the day being re-elected?

What the testimony did today was not only excuse its behaviour but wen caught acting unethically try character assassinate their fellow party cabinet member for telling them to stop it.

They would also have you believe Trudeau and Butt are still niot capable of understanding what a conflict of interest is or pressure or undue influence is or that the concerns as to getting Mr. Trudeau re-elected in his riding can not supercede the best interests of the nation.

This strategy of arrogance and denial necessarily will divide the Liberal party further. I find it hard to believe any lawyer elected as an MP for the Liberals at this time is not panicking.

What it also shows is Trudeau had no problem putting the alleged considerations of his riding before any other Canadians and  will do it again.

Is that a Prime Minister anyone wants? Is that leadership or abandonment of leadership?

How do you lead when you tell the majority of the country they are expendable because you are more concerned with your own riding than the rest of them? How is that leadership?

How is it the PM let alone his toady Mr. Butt could not identify the conflicts of interest let alone believe there was more than one public interest to consider other than the one they became obsessed over?

Did anyone hear any remorse in Butt? Did you hear even an iota of regret in what he said?

He played himself as just a guy putting political considerations of his leader above the rest of the nation as if it that was acceptable and admirable. He called Raybould a liar after saying he would not question her integrity by saying she only raised all her concerns and got upset AFTER she was removed from her office and that was why she raised her concerns no other reason.

So he would have you believe she is a liar and made the whole thing up in a temper tantrum.

That is what he rested his entire testimony on.

That was as sleeze bag as it gets and it shows you what level of insults and character and personal attacks he and Trudeau and Liberals will engage in against each other to avoid taking responsibility for unethical behaviour.

Its pathetic, its spineless and its par for the course for privileged narcissist rich boys who were never told no and can not imagine under any circumstance that what they do might be wrong.

What Butt should have done is not testify. What Trudeau should have done is say he made an honest well intentioned mistake and became confused at where to draw the line between partisan and non partisan public interests and has learned from his mistake and will take steps now to create a procedure where he and his MP's will be recused (removed from discussions) where they have a conflict of interest to avoid further mistakes.

He could have done that. However he did not and will not. Trudeau will continue to play the role of unquestioned righteous Prince above the law and questioning-a man who can not be doubted or questioned or ever to be said to have made a mistake.

He sees no disconnect between the open sunny ethical government he promised and the cheap, sleezy, closed, bitter, petty, nasty tone of politics he has set.

He sees no disconnect between telling China he can not get involved in criminal proceedings while doing exactly that with Lavalin.

Is he that stupid or that arrogant?

He's both.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 06, 2019, 09:04:02 pm
Yah yah the post is too long. The Liberals on this board can't handle all the issues. Don't read it Omni it has more than one thought in it. Your brain will go blam pow if you read even a sentence.

oh you know
he loves Trudeau
such a cute grin
never mind Lavalin
he's got the plan
ignore the Aga Khan
he's loved by all his gentry
and he encourages illegal entry
ah who needs a pipeline
Lavalin will do just fine
it builds that collapse
but maybe just perhaps
when you receive their bribe
you'll understand that liberal vibe



Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 06, 2019, 09:16:14 pm
Yah yah the post is too long. The Liberals on this board can't handle all the issues. Don't read it Omni it has more than one thought in it. Your brain will go blam pow if you read even a sentence.

oh you know
he loves Trudeau
such a cute grin
never mind Lavalin
he's got the plan
ignore the Aga Khan
he's loved by all his gentry
and he encourages illegal entry
ah who needs a pipeline
Lavalin will do just fine
it builds that collapse
but maybe just perhaps
when you receive their bribe
you'll understand that liberal vibe

I doubt very many people bother to waste the time to read your screeds. But carry on if you've nothing better to do.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 06, 2019, 09:39:28 pm
Jane Philpott is being lauded by many for standing by JWR because they're good friends... Gerald Butts is being dismissed by many because he's been a friend of PM Trudeau for over 30 years

(https://i.imgur.com/4RGnHUk.gif)

And if you are waldo, it is the other way around.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 06, 2019, 10:03:58 pm
I was looking at the infamous January cabinet shuffle.  What stood out to me was that the person they chose to replace JWR as AG is cabinet-rookie David Lametti, who is a Montreal MP.  By sheer coincidence of course, SNC-Lavalin is a Montreal-based company with its headquarters in the city.

I wonder if an AG from Montreal would have an interest (even a conflict of interest perhaps?) in obtaining a DPA for a Montreal company in order to save 9000 jobs?  Surely this unbelievable coincidence wouldn't have occurred to the PM/PMO.  Hmm...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 10:40:51 pm
I doubt very many people bother to waste the time to read your screeds. But carry on if you've nothing better to do.

member Rue has every opportunity to challenge posts directly... posts that are, typically, single point/issue themes. For some reason he chooses not to and instead prefers to revel in his perpetual 'Gish Gallop' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop)! Even if one were inclined, how/where to begin with his lengthy posts that are usually a mix of rant/conjecture/unsubstantiated statements & claims/etc..
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 10:41:40 pm
And if you are waldo, it is the other way around.

is there a translator in the house?... anyone, anyone, anyone.....
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 06, 2019, 10:47:48 pm
I was looking at the infamous January cabinet shuffle.  What stood out to me was that the person they chose to replace JWR as AG is cabinet-rookie David Lametti, who is a Montreal MP.  By sheer coincidence of course, SNC-Lavalin is a Montreal-based company with its headquarters in the city.

I wonder if an AG from Montreal would have an interest (even a conflict of interest perhaps?) in obtaining a DPA for a Montreal company in order to save 9000 jobs?  Surely this unbelievable coincidence wouldn't have occurred to the PM/PMO.  Hmm...

you are seeing what you want to see! Yes, Lametti has not been in Cabinet proper before... but has held 2 Parliamentary Secretary positions since being elected in 2015; as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development and as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade.

his significant professional/academic bio appears in many locations on an assortment of websites; perhaps try this one (https://www.mcgill.ca/law/about/profs/lametti-david):
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 06, 2019, 10:49:22 pm
member Rue has every opportunity to challenge posts directly... posts that are, typically, single point/issue themes. For some reason he chooses not to and instead prefers to revel in his perpetual 'Gish Gallop' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop)! Even if one were inclined, how/where to begin with his lengthy posts that are usually a mix of rant/conjecture/unsubstantiated statements/claims/etc..

I hadn't heard of Gish/Gallup but having read through the site you posted I will say the reference is totally apropos.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 07:04:45 am
Trudeau on the podium RIGHT NOW !

Why doesn't CHAT work ?!?   :'(
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 07:09:18 am
"I was not aware of that erosion"

(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7R9FJ/danger-cliff-erosion-sign-E7R9FJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 07:17:03 am
Uh.  I think it is done... I don't *think* he said sorry.  Talked about how much Justice is important, his dad, he's going north to apologize to Inuit, and... bringing in an outside consultant to look at how cabinet works.

I think he was supposed to say 'sorry'.  He didn't say 'sorry'.  It seems that whatever he is saying is not going to bring this to an end.  The CBC political 'expert' basically said "all he has to do is say sorry here".

Added: And now the expert is back calling this an 'epic fail'

Other comments: "Bizarre rambling presentation" "astonishing" "tried to defend with process" "he should know what to do"

This... on the CBC.   :P
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 07, 2019, 07:36:57 am
Trudeau on the podium RIGHT NOW !
Trudeau is so screwed.

His only way out of this mess is to offer JWB her post back at Justice and apologize for his overzealous efforts to protect jobs.

JWB might not accept but he needs to publicly make the offer. Doing this is the only way to avoid admitting that she was removed to make room for someone more likely to help out SNC. The ridiculous excuses they are offering now just makes him seem dishonest.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 07, 2019, 07:37:10 am
the Liberals are supposed to announce something about pharmacare today.
Well that announcement was anti-climactic: calling for a National Drug Agency.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pharmacare-drug-agency-council-1.5044673
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: cybercoma on March 07, 2019, 07:39:16 am
it is what it is - it provided a snapshot of the last week of a rolling 4 week coverage of participants voting for their respective preference for Prime Minister... which is exactly what I stated. I also stated that this same 'rolling week' approach or aggregate polling offers additional insight - certainly more than a single poll snapshot that had the member gleefully touting it.
It is what it is: irrelevant. What is relevant is that Trudeau's brand is now tarnished by PMO shenanigans that remind people of the sponsorship scandal.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 10:12:22 am
It is what it is: irrelevant. What is relevant is that Trudeau's brand is now tarnished by PMO shenanigans that remind people of the sponsorship scandal.

no - again, it is what it is - a poll (the last, most recent week of an ongoing rolling 4 week poll) where participants expressed their PM preference. Your want to reminiscence is noted; one that, to me, would have a relevance if you actually allowed yourself to relate what you interpret is the nature of this present day said "scandal"... other than that fabricated by a partisan Opposition and a compliant media. I don't recall you doing so; if you have already, I expect you wouldn't mind relating it again - yes?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 10:31:06 am
Trudeau is so screwed.

His only way out of this mess is to offer JWB her post back at Justice and apologize for his overzealous efforts to protect jobs.

JWB might not accept but he needs to publicly make the offer. Doing this is the only way to avoid admitting that she was removed to make room for someone more likely to help out SNC. The ridiculous excuses they are offering now just makes him seem dishonest.

I don't think he can do anything now. 

Who would have thought his political instincts were so terrible ?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 10:33:54 am
Then why does the law *explicitly state* that "national economic interest" must *not* be considered?

Quote
Factors not to consider

(3) Despite paragraph (2)(i), if the organization is alleged to have committed an offence under section 3 or 4 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, the prosecutor must not consider the national economic interest, the potential effect on relations with a state other than Canada or the identity of the organization or individual involved.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html
If JWR had followed the agenda of the PMO and considered "national economic interest" for this particular DPA (SNC-L &/or headquarters may leave Canada if blocked for 10 yrs from gov contracts), then wouldn't she have been doing something unlawful?
One would assume so but the law is contradictory since one could argue the DPA was to "to reduce the negative consequences of the wrongdoing for persons — employees, customers, pensioners and others — who did not engage in the wrongdoing" rather than the "national interest".


recognizing the correlation of the DPA clause in question; correlation with the 'Foreign Corruption Act': a point of clarification from yesterday's testimony; if you choose not to accept it, please provide an actual legal interpretation you prefer - something other than your personal interpretations - yes? One journalist captured it:

(https://i.imgur.com/6i52Jee.png)

for all the words written over this point, and the dependencies placed upon it... might ConMedia hacks actually give this clarification notice/attention?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 10:36:09 am
Who would have thought his political instincts were so terrible ?

what were you expecting - what did you want to hear, and the basis for what you wanted to hear?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 07, 2019, 12:33:34 pm
I don't think he can do anything now. 

Who would have thought his political instincts were so terrible ?

I could have told you that. The man is a part time drama teacher, who came from privilege.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 01:10:02 pm
what were you expecting - what did you want to hear, and the basis for what you wanted to hear?

"I'm sorry" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEwNcnklcsk)

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 01:10:57 pm
I could have told you that. The man is a part time drama teacher, who came from privilege.

Who became PM ?  With a majority government ?

Did you miss that part ?

That would account for my surprise.  The last job.

Wait - who the hell are you anyway ?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 07, 2019, 02:44:51 pm
Yah yah the post is too long.

I don't care about long posts, I care about long posts that go off into la-la land. I always start reading your posts, and then when you have nothing to offer but mindless drivel I stop wasting my time.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 07, 2019, 02:49:30 pm
What stood out to me was that the person they chose to replace JWR as AG is cabinet-rookie David Lametti, who is a Montreal MP.

Yes, he is a cabinet rookie. He however has a very extensive legal background, and specializes in international law. His legal experience is far, far more extensive than JWR who was also a cabinet rookie.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: the_squid on March 07, 2019, 03:19:23 pm
Yes, he is a cabinet rookie. He however has a very extensive legal background, and specializes in international law. His legal experience is far, far more extensive than JWR who was also a cabinet rookie.

Really lame argument...   it's no different than the arguments by people who state Trudeau is a "drama teacher".   You're using the same terrible argument now that it will back your own viewpoint.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 07, 2019, 03:27:10 pm
Really lame argument...   it's no different than the arguments by people who state Trudeau is a "drama teacher".   You're using the same terrible argument now that it will back your own viewpoint.

How is that anywhere close to the same argument?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2019, 03:54:55 pm
is there a translator in the house?... anyone, anyone, anyone.....
I don't think most people here need a translation.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2019, 03:57:48 pm
I was looking at the infamous January cabinet shuffle.  What stood out to me was that the person they chose to replace JWR as AG is cabinet-rookie David Lametti, who is a Montreal MP.  By sheer coincidence of course, SNC-Lavalin is a Montreal-based company with its headquarters in the city.

I wonder if an AG from Montreal would have an interest (even a conflict of interest perhaps?) in obtaining a DPA for a Montreal company in order to save 9000 jobs?  Surely this unbelievable coincidence wouldn't have occurred to the PM/PMO.  Hmm...

A Montreal MP.   Quelle Surprise!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2019, 03:58:02 pm
Really lame argument...   it's no different than the arguments by people who state Trudeau is a "drama teacher".   You're using the same terrible argument now that it will back your own viewpoint.

So you think teaching law at Mcgill is "very lame"?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2019, 04:01:23 pm
Who became PM ?  With a majority government ?

Did you miss that part ?

That would account for my surprise.  The last job.

Wait - who the hell are you anyway ?

A showman managed to get elected down south as well. Says more about the electorate than the candidate.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 07, 2019, 04:07:55 pm
Really lame argument...   it's no different than the arguments by people who state Trudeau is a "drama teacher".   You're using the same terrible argument now that it will back your own viewpoint.

Historically, Drama teachers, who ride off their father's coattails do not make good leaders. Of course, there are always exceptions...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 07, 2019, 04:20:15 pm
Really lame argument...

Then how would you rate the comment I was responding to?

What stood out to me was that the person they chose to replace JWR as AG is cabinet-rookie David Lametti, who is a Montreal MP.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Rue on March 07, 2019, 06:03:07 pm
1-Trudeau stated at the beginning of his interview today he did not know JWR had come to a final opinion.

15 minutes later in response to a question from a Globe & Mail Reporter he told JWR to consider and I quote: “revisiting the issue with a second legal opinion”.

2-Trudeau today stated he did mention to JWR that as Member of Parliament of Gatineau he was extremely concerned about loss of jobs in his riding.

Mr. Butt said he had no knowledge the aboivehappened. This coming from the man whose job it is to identify and protect Trudeau from any adverse political developments that would get him re-elected.

3-Mr. Trudeau raised many times that his concern was loss of jobs in Quebec and it was his job to raise that issue to JWR.

Firstly,  because of his conflict of interest he should not have raised it with her.Secondly in her context as AG he was never allowed to raise it with her. Thirdly and most importantly the law Mr. Trudeau passed allowing deferred prosecution agreements does not and never stated loss of jobs is a criteria for granting a deferred prosecution agreement. I explained that in a previous email but of course the Liberals on this forum select only that which they want to read and hear just like their dear leader. You can read the law yourself, loss of jobs is not a legal consideration for determining whether a deferred prosecution agreement should be considered. That's not speculation, conjecture, its called law. Waldo, Omni, they can ignore the law, but it exists and isn't speculated by me.  Trudeau insisted that law be passed so how does he not know what the conditions for getting a dpa are and would they keep raising a consideration JWR could not consider as part of the dpa? Fourthly what proof does Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Butt or anyone else have, that Lavalin would lose jobs? When asked Butt said he had no proof. When Mr. Trudeau was asked today he said he had a “variety of sources”. That’s interesting because when asked to produce him today he would not answer and when asked to mention one source, he could not. There are no sources.

Lavalin by the way has a head office in Quebec City. They borrowed 1.5 billion from the Caisse Populaires in Quebec as I stated earlier with an express agreement that if they move out of Quebec before 2024 they must pay back the loan in full plus a penalty. Someone tell Waldo that is a fact not conjecture. Tell him what is conjecture is stating there would be a job loss in Quebec.

Speculation about loss of jobs is from a spin by Lavalin to the Liberal government that if they are criminally sentenced, they would not be allowed federal government contracts for 10 years and that is where they would lose their anticipated future revenue. That is a false and nonsensical speculation. Their fear of a 10  year ban comes from the fact the World Bank has banned them from any projects for 10 years because of bribery convictions for procuring contracts in Bangladesh and Cambodia. The Criminal Code sentencing criteria and dpa criteria do not state that in their sentencing considerations for bribery and fraud.

As for the deferred prosecution agreement it is not an automatic entitlement, one is only eligible for consideration for it if they first meet many conditions none related to employing people and many which Lavalin has indicated it would not agree to. The most crucial element of ANY deferred prosecution agreement would be that Lavalin pay back any money it earned from projects awarded through bribery. They have indicated they would not do that. That is not conjecture that is fact.

4-Mr. Trudeau says he learned from his mistakes.

Clearly he did not because today he repeated again it was legally appropriate for him to raise a partisan issue unrelated to the dpa as a legitimate consideration to raise to an AG when it is clear her role says she can not under any circumstance consider this criteria and the dpa law Trudeau passed does not consider loss of jobs a criteria.

More to the point Mr. Trudeau did not apologize or say in future situations he would remove himself from any situations with a conflict of interest and could compromise the integrity of the government, in fact he said he would continue doing what he did.

Mr. Trudeau takes no responsibility for his actions. He also continued the line to tell  JWR how she felt. He again repeated and I quote “she was not pressured” even though at the beginning of his presentation he talked about an “erosion of trust”. Interestingly he didn’t say he caused the erosion of trust at any time or take responsibility for his actions being a cause of the erosion of trust, just he should have realized she did not trust him. Oh it was all friendly discussion he said. He had no idea she did not trust him. Does anyone buy that? Does anyone buy into that script?

Here you are an  AG not supposed to discuss on-going criminal proceedings and you see your Prime Minister and his underlings meet with the criminal charged 80 times in three years and you would not by that alone she would feel pressured?

After the PM raised his concerns for loss of jobs what was that, a non pressurized statement?

When the Privy Council head called her (and he admitted he did) telling her Trudeau was upset over potential job losses and she better reconsider a dpa, what was that? Interestingly today JWR offered to provide written evidence of the pressure and the Liberal majority on the committee refused. They have cut her off and will not permit any consideration of written evidence sent to JWR from the PM, his PMO or the Privy Council head who when asked about his memos said he had none. That by the way after Mr. Trudeau today when asked by a reporter said he was and continues to be transparent? He again said one thing and demonstrated another. He claims he is open while banning evidence showing he pressured JWR.

5. When asked why he did not just leave JWR in cabinet when she refused the Indian Affairs position Trudeau fudged.

Everyone heard the answer he gave. He had no answer.

Today’s comments were less than a charade.  They were a contrite, petulant rich boy of privilege refusing to acknowledge he made serious mistakes and saying he will keep doing what he has and has led to all his problems and carry on as if nothing bad has happened.
It’s a little late for that. A

lso ironically his flight to go apologize to indigenous people for the handling of tuberculosis in the 1950’s was interfered with by bad weather. Coincidence?

To summarize Mr. Trudeau has defined himself as someone who thinks job loss concerns can mask his fear of losing votes from those job losses as his real motivation for fearing the job losses.

He would also have you believe compromising criminal law and the integrity of the legal process by interfering with it over job loss concerns is acceptable.

Of course its not legally and never was. At this point the argument of Liberals is, well everyone else does it. Its just normal politics. Well who else has done it? When in the history of Canada or any democratic nation has a criminal lobbied the government of the day to have the prosecution back off a criminal proceeding. Please have the Liberals on this forum calling that “normal” and “ethical” and “legal” provide an example.

Finally I will say it one last time for the Liberals on this forum. A dpa is predicated on an alleged criminal BEFORE not after they are charged, voluntarily approaching the crown on their case and offering to make restitution. That's not conjecture its how the law works.

 Lavalin has never done that. In fact it went around the prosecutor to the PMO to pressure the AG to back off and when she would not raised the dpa as a solution and lobbied Trudeau to pass a dpa law. That is not how dpa’s work. In fact you don’t even need a dpa law. We could have had a plea bargain that would do the same thing. The reason there was no plea bargain is neither Lavalin or Trudeau wanted to take the chance as to the sentence a Judge would demand against Lavalin.

What Lavalin knows is they are a REPEAT offender of bribery crimes and so the sentence can NOT be lenient because of how the Criminal Code is written. No the Criminal Code does not to this day, allow a repeat offender a lighter sentence let alone a dpa.

Next, ask yourselves this about these Liberals. Sure Omni and Waldo can giggle and ignore anyone they disagree with but have they or are they capable of defending what Trudeau did as ethical? I am still waiting. Omni said he needed to wait and see. Lol.

How long ago was it on this forum and in Parliament Liberals like Omni were all wetting their pants over Mike Duffy. How do these same righteous defenders of ethics and open government defend what Trudeau is doing now? Well Waldo and Omni? You think ignoring me makes what Trudeau did go away?

I seem to remember these Liberals on this forum lecture many of us that the West is to blame for the problems of the third world by propping evil dictators. However if Lavalin does that and bribes these evil dictators Omni has no issues with that and none of these other leftist do gooders do. Suddenly when its a Liberal gets into bed with an unethical, corrupt multi-national that pays off dictators and war criminals, its o.k. because it employs Canadians?

BULL ****.

Run along Waldo and Omni your Lord's head is jammed for far up his buttocks not even Grant Garneau, who has flown in dark spaces can help him.


Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2019, 06:03:56 pm
Yes, he is a cabinet rookie. He however has a very extensive legal background, and specializes in international law. His legal experience is far, far more extensive than JWR who was also a cabinet rookie.

Well now how did a more qualified MP originally get passed over for the Justice/AG job for a less qualified MP a few years ago?  Oh wait the white male didn't have an aboriginal ****.  Brison is gone, time to fill that white male quota!

JT is a sexist, a racist, and now a crooked lying bully.  Good to know!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 06:28:50 pm
Thirdly and most importantly the law Mr. Trudeau passed allowing deferred prosecution agreements does not and never stated loss of jobs is a criteria for granting a deferred prosecution agreement. I explained that in a previous email but of course the Liberals on this forum select only that which they want to read and hear just like their dear leader. You can read the law yourself, loss of jobs is not a legal consideration for determining whether a deferred prosecution agreement should be considered. That's not speculation, conjecture, its called law. Waldo, Omni, they can ignore the law, but it exists and isn't speculated by me.

16,000 jobs inclusive of direct employees (~4000 in Quebec, ~5000 across the rest of Canada), support and supply-chain personnel... a risk & impact consideration; certainly a matter of public interest. If you wrestle yourself away from your GishGalloping, provide a cite that states public interest is not a consideration when evaluating whether a remediation agreement could be offered.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 06:36:36 pm
Oh wait the white male didn't have an aboriginal ****.

JT is a sexist, a racist, and now a crooked lying bully.  Good to know!


projection: A way to transfer guilt for your own thoughts, emotions and actions onto another as a way of not admitting your guilt to yourself.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 07, 2019, 06:39:04 pm
Historically, Drama teachers, who ride off their father's coattails do not make good leaders. Of course, there are always exceptions...

Trudeau worked longer than Scheer did as an insurance salesman. 

Scheer was an MP at 25.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 06:47:54 pm
Fourthly what proof does Mr. Trudeau, Mr. Butt or anyone else have, that Lavalin would lose jobs? When asked Butt said he had no proof. When Mr. Trudeau was asked today he said he had a “variety of sources”. That’s interesting because when asked to produce him today he would not answer and when asked to mention one source, he could not. There are no sources.

Lavalin by the way has a head office in Quebec City. They borrowed 1.5 billion from the Caisse Populaires in Quebec as I stated earlier with an express agreement that if they move out of Quebec before 2024 they must pay back the loan in full plus a penalty. Someone tell Waldo that is a fact not conjecture. Tell him what is conjecture is stating there would be a job loss in Quebec.

Speculation about loss of jobs is from a spin by Lavalin to the Liberal government that if they are criminally sentenced, they would not be allowed federal government contracts for 10 years and that is where they would lose their anticipated future revenue. That is a false and nonsensical speculation.

how sad you can't rise above your strawman! Please feel free to provide a cite quoting Trudeau/Butts/Wernick stating job loss was guaranteed... the concern for impacts upon jobs is one of considered risk to job loss and a potential move of parts of the company to another country. Perhaps you could offer your "credible insight" and explain why losing the ability to bid on federal contracts for 10 years is not a concern for the company/employees/shareholders?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 06:57:52 pm
Historically, Drama teachers, who ride off their father's coattails do not make good leaders. Of course, there are always exceptions...

why would you purposely omit/negate the 8 years of experience as an Opposition MP (with 2 of those as Liberal Party leader)... notwithstanding the pre-political teaching curriculum also included math, French & humanities. Sorry to burst you talking point.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 07:05:01 pm
As for the deferred prosecution agreement it is not an automatic entitlement, one is only eligible for consideration for it if they first meet many conditions none related to employing people and many which Lavalin has indicated it would not agree to. The most crucial element of ANY deferred prosecution agreement would be that Lavalin pay back any money it earned from projects awarded through bribery. They have indicated they would not do that. That is not conjecture that is fact.

citation request for your expressed facts - thanks in advance
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 07, 2019, 07:08:35 pm
You should have also requested a citation for "historical" data on the leadership performance of drama teachers who rode on their fathers' coattails.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 07:11:37 pm
4-Mr. Trudeau says he learned from his mistakes.

Clearly he did not because today he repeated again it was legally appropriate for him to raise a partisan issue unrelated to the dpa as a legitimate consideration to raise to an AG when it is clear her role says she can not under any circumstance consider this criteria and the dpa law Trudeau passed does not consider loss of jobs a criteria.

no - again, see public interest... per prior request to you... in the interest of tempering your bloviating-self, please provide that cite - yes?
If you wrestle yourself away from your GishGalloping, provide a cite that states public interest is not a consideration when evaluating whether a remediation agreement could be offered.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 07:13:07 pm
You should have also requested a citation for "historical" data on the leadership performance of drama teachers who rode on their fathers' coattails.

it's a thought; however, I doubt the Pinus guy has heard of Google Scholar!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 07:27:34 pm
He again repeated and I quote “she was not pressured”

He claims he is open while banning evidence showing he pressured JWR

ya, ya - Jody's truth! Such pressure... on her fee-fee sensitivities! From the testimony: 10 meetings over 4 months... 3 that she personally attended (at least 1 of the 3 she solicited herself!). Such pressure! But give her credit - she held out against that intense pressure through Sept., through Oct., through Nov., and through Dec.!!! But somehow, somehow, her perseverance couldn't last and the public became aware... after the cabinet shuffle. Timing is everything, yes?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 07:43:05 pm
5. When asked why he did not just leave JWR in cabinet when she refused the Indian Affairs position Trudeau fudged.

Everyone heard the answer he gave. He had no answer.

it's properly called the Indigenous Services ministry. Butts gave the answer in yesterday's testimony. With Philpott moved to the Treasury Board, it (Indigenous Services) still needed to be filled.

Wilson-Raybould could have effected change in Indigenous Services, leaders say (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/03/07/wilson-raybould-could-have-effected-change-in-indigenous-services-says-leaders.html)

same challenge to you: provide example(s) of an MP/MPP refusing a cabinet position reassignment as a part of a shuffle - any government - yes?

so again, Seamus O'Regan moved to fill vacated Indigenous Services position... need to now fill O'Regan's vacated Veterans Affairs position... see JWR accepting this move... well, accepting it until... the pressure burst forth!!! And again, per Butts, there was no want to set a precedent that a Minister could refuse a cabinet reassignment.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 07, 2019, 08:01:23 pm
16,000 jobs inclusive of direct employees (~4000 in Quebec, ~5000 across the rest of Canada), support and supply-chain personnel... a risk & impact consideration; certainly a matter of public interest. If you wrestle yourself away from your GishGalloping, provide a cite that states public interest is not a consideration when evaluating whether a remediation agreement could be offered.

The question that needs to be asked is, "Is Waldo on the payroll of the Liberal Party of Canada?" 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 07, 2019, 08:02:23 pm
Trudeau worked longer than Scheer did as an insurance salesman. 

Scheer was an MP at 25.

I am no fan of Scheer.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 07, 2019, 08:08:33 pm
why would you purposely omit/negate the 8 years of experience as an Opposition MP (with 2 of those as Liberal Party leader)..

Opposition MP can legitimately be considered a fake job. When one gets paid to oppose the ruling party, he is in no way, shape, or form, contributing to society.  All Trudeau was doing was receiving a big fat paycheck. The same could be applied to most politicians.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 07, 2019, 08:31:30 pm
Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes announced last week that she won't seek re-election.

This was her response today (https://twitter.com/MPCelina/status/1103680760337260545) to Trudeau's speech.

(https://i.imgur.com/DXVdISa.png)

Sounds like another unhappy camper.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 07, 2019, 08:41:30 pm
Meanwhile the Public Prosecution Service is now on Twitter. Their very first tweet was yesterday! They're tweeting like crazy and are now all the way up to 5 tweets! Imagine!

This was tweet #4. (https://twitter.com/PPSC_SPPC/status/1103679348689776640)

(https://i.imgur.com/TOho2DD.jpg)

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2019, 08:46:53 pm
Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes announced last week that she won't seek re-election.

Sounds like another unhappy camper.

She had nothing to do with this whole affair as far as I know.  I can't remember MP's going after their own leader like this, this is wild.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 07, 2019, 08:56:16 pm
She had nothing to do with this whole affair as far as I know.  I can't remember MP's going after their own leader like this, this is wild.
I suspect she had a different problem. She is one of those bigots that insists in belittling people based on their race. Trudeau probably told her to dial it back and she was not happy about it. I remember reading her comments earlier this week where she complained she did not like having to limit what she says.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2019, 08:58:37 pm
Today Trudeau said we didn't pressure JWR, but she saw it differently.  Everyone has different leadership styles.  It's all one big misunderstanding!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V2sBURgUBI
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2019, 09:04:54 pm
And it's all a "he said, she said" deal and in the absence of anything more revealing, such as emails etc., in two weeks time it will be in the rearview mirror.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2019, 09:52:56 pm
I suspect she had a different problem. She is one of those bigots that insists in belittling people based on their race. Trudeau probably told her to dial it back and she was not happy about it. I remember reading her comments earlier this week where she complained she did not having to limit what she says.

I found this interesting:  https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1101867429901279232

After JWR spoke to the committee during Trudeau's response he had a bunch of black people and women surrounding him in the background, I guess to show he's, like, not sexist racist or something???  This kind of thing makes me puke.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2019, 10:15:24 pm
I found this interesting:  https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1101867429901279232

After JWR spoke to the committee during Trudeau's response he had a bunch of black people and women surrounding him in the background, I guess to show he's, like, not sexist racist or something???  This kind of thing makes me puke.

And before you puke, are you somehow suggesting he is racist or sexist? Your comments seem to suggest so.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2019, 10:20:21 pm
And before you puke, are you somehow suggesting he is racist or sexist? Your comments seem to suggest so.

Well now how did a more qualified MP originally get passed over for the Justice/AG job for a less qualified MP a few years ago?  Oh wait the white male didn't have an aboriginal ****.  Brison is gone, time to fill that white male quota!

JT is a sexist, a racist, and now a crooked lying bully.  Good to know!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2019, 10:28:10 pm


That's not only DUMB, it's sack o' hammers dumb. But we don't have a clicker to that extreme.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 11:51:18 pm
Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes announced last week that she won't seek re-election.

Sounds like another unhappy camper.

She had nothing to do with this whole affair as far as I know.  I can't remember MP's going after their own leader like this, this is wild.

way to hunt that down! ;D The waldo suggests you check Ms.Caesar-Chavannes out a tad... it's a shame - she coulda been a contender! Considering she's 40+, she failed to show maturity on so many levels... self-described "fiery... uncensored... so public with claims of being subjected to so many microaggressions on the Hill  :o" I'd think the months long twitter feud with Maxine Bernier might have been the proverbial 'last straw'. Almost as wild as member Pooner's over-the-top posts and hyperbole... almost!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 07, 2019, 11:53:00 pm
Meanwhile the Public Prosecution Service is now on Twitter.

are you there yet... is that the Crown you were so confused over?  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 12:10:25 am
Meanwhile the Public Prosecution Service is now on Twitter. Their very first tweet was yesterday! They're tweeting like crazy and are now all the way up to 5 tweets! Imagine!

(https://i.imgur.com/TOho2DD.jpg)

for those who don't know... informative - good on ya! By the by, perhaps you're confused and think this is relevant to the thread... are you aware of any suggestions/allegations that the PPSC independence was challenged or prosecutors came under improper influence? (please don't score another own goal on yourself!)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 12:25:04 am
Finally I will say it one last time for the Liberals on this forum. A dpa is predicated on an alleged criminal BEFORE not after they are charged, voluntarily approaching the crown on their case and offering to make restitution. That's not conjecture its how the law works.

try to keep up, hey!

notwithstanding DPAs have a principal aim to allow companies to self-disclose their "wrong doings" (that may never be known without self-disclosure), for those company's 'caught' before self-disclosure, sufficient equivalencies to extend beyond your described "minimums" are needed. As I read/interpret, practical extensions beyond minimal statutory requirements have been formalized in both U.S. & UK deployments of DPA legislation - no biggee/SOP! As I interpret, pre-and-post remediation efforts undertaken by companies, upon evaluation, might qualify as mitigating circumstance in determining "sentencing". Of course, for some reason you seem to overlook the fact negotiated DPAs are subject to judicial review and court authorization... you did know that, right?

speaking of SNC-Lavalin, as I've noted previously, the company has undertaken significant efforts towards remediation. You may choose to accept/respect the following SNC-Lavalin authored summary - or not; note: this is an extract from a formal SNC-Lavalin response to their notification a DPA would not be considered. Perhaps you might choose to offer your personal interpretation and evaluation of the following - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/riDKxqa.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 12:52:17 am
Well Waldo and Omni? You think ignoring me makes what Trudeau did go away?

did what? No illegalities... even St. Jody said so. The only person claiming "improper pressure" is JWR. While you're so advocating for St. Jody, perhaps you could speak to why she refused to provide a most relevant report to the PCO - hence to cabinet? C'mon buddy, you keep calling others out - why don't you answer for why she spiked that report!

(https://i.imgur.com/6GpMteV.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:17:18 am
I seem to remember these Liberals on this forum lecture many of us that the West is to blame for the problems of the third world by propping evil dictators. However if Lavalin does that and bribes these evil dictators Omni has no issues with that and none of these other leftist do gooders do. Suddenly when its a Liberal gets into bed with an unethical, corrupt multi-national that pays off dictators and war criminals, its o.k. because it employs Canadians?

BULL ****.

Run along Waldo and Omni your Lord's head is jammed for far up his buttocks not even Grant Garneau, who has flown in dark spaces can help him.

your posting history on DPAs clearly shows you're having extreme difficulties in understanding intent and practice.

again, those select few executives involved in the Libyan concern are long gone from the company. From what I've read, what I've chosen to post here, from 2012 on through to present day, SNC-Lavalin has made a genuine, concerted effort to introduce serious remedial change (see 2 posts back for a listing example of changes introduced/actions taken). In such a circumstance who are you so clamoring to convict... without regard to innocent employees/supply-chain personnel, stock-holders, pensioners, etc.,; those who did nothing wrong and had no involvement with the improper criminal events in the 'Libyan affair'? Does a company have blood... does it have enough to satisfy your thirst?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:27:40 am
not a bite... not a single bite - go figure!


(https://i.imgur.com/JV46Drc.png)

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-179.html

recognizing the correlation of the DPA clause in question; correlation with the 'Foreign Corruption Act': a point of clarification from yesterday's testimony; if you choose not to accept it, please provide an actual legal interpretation you prefer - something other than your personal interpretations - yes? One journalist captured it:

(https://i.imgur.com/6i52Jee.png)

for all the words written over this point, and the dependencies placed upon it... might ConMedia hacks actually give this clarification notice/attention?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 08, 2019, 05:31:36 am
 :o  IT'S A WALL O WALDO !
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 08, 2019, 08:07:42 am
That's not only DUMB, it's sack o' hammers dumb. But we don't have a clicker to that extreme.

Eight posts in a row. That must be some sort of record on this forum. A
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 08, 2019, 08:45:44 am
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin-scandal-system-working/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR29LSmWtDEz0J7Ii5S9lq_elRi-mTbyQOzthJhQ6AlNse8xtEKB1tPPDFU#Echobox=1551810261

SNC Lavalin scandals proves the system works ?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 09:10:42 am
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-trudeau-reveals-his-poor-grasp-of-the-justice-system
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 08, 2019, 09:28:58 am
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin-scandal-system-working/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR29LSmWtDEz0J7Ii5S9lq_elRi-mTbyQOzthJhQ6AlNse8xtEKB1tPPDFU#Echobox=1551810261

SNC Lavalin scandals proves the system works ?

What do you expect? It's MacLean's magazine.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 08, 2019, 09:59:49 am
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/jody-wilson-raybould-snc-lavalin-scandal-system-working/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR29LSmWtDEz0J7Ii5S9lq_elRi-mTbyQOzthJhQ6AlNse8xtEKB1tPPDFU#Echobox=1551810261

SNC Lavalin scandals proves the system works ?

I agree with some of his conclusions-- "The events of the past month show us what accountability looks like between elections." And the idea that the better yardstick is not the absence of scandals but rather how the system handles them.


Key quote:
"We know our system is working when the safeguards we’ve put in place to address government chicanery kick in and do their job. "

But was it the safeguards in the system?  We only know about this whole affair because of a leaked story in the G&M.  And if the AG had been some pliable peon rather than someone who took the principle of PPSC seriously, they would probably just done as the PM and his allies "suggested" in the first place.  I'd suggest that the only reason this came to light was an unusual set of circumstances, not safeguards inherent in the system.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: MH on March 08, 2019, 10:24:22 am
I agree with some of his conclusions-- "The events of the past month show us what accountability looks like between elections." And the idea that the better yardstick is not the absence of scandals but rather how the system handles them.

And the fact that we are actually talking about this as what it is. 

 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 10:29:22 am
In this case the only safeguard was a minister who would not be cowed by her boss. It shows how flimsy our safeguards are.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 11:23:50 am
https://youtu.be/su4e2CgwzW0
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 11:56:48 am
In this case the only safeguard was a minister who would not be cowed by her boss. It shows how flimsy our safeguards are.

"a minister who would not be cowed by her boss"  ;D aided and abetted by a feckless, pliable and indiscriminate media, St. Jody's truth => subjective, self-serving, vindictive retaliation to a 'small, tidy cabinet shuffle'; one she didn't like because she was being asked to move from her "dream job" - nothing more, nothing less...
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 12:01:50 pm
 I came across this gem.

Quote
The Diabolical Narcissist’s Prayer

That didn’t happen.
And if it did happen, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was that bad, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is a big deal, that’s not my fault.
And if it was my fault, I didn’t mean it.
And if I did mean it…
You deserved it.
Amen.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 12:16:12 pm
I came across this gem.

when you're in pain, does labeling others a narcissist feel good... is it self-justification for your own failings?

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: TimG on March 08, 2019, 12:22:15 pm
In this case the only safeguard was a minister who would not be cowed by her boss. It shows how flimsy our safeguards are.
Not necessarily. The law requires any such direction to be published in the Canada Gazette. This means that any interested party could have connected the dots, followed the paper trail from SNC lobbying, the secret passage of the DPA option to the prosecutors judgement being overruled. This would have been more than enough to make a stink but would any in the media have cared? I doubt it. This is only a story because JWR choose to make an issue of it an everyone loves a good soap opera.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 12:29:36 pm
Not necessarily. The law requires any such direction to be published in the Canada Gazette. This means that any interested party could have connected the dots, followed the paper trail from SNC lobbying, the secret passage of the DPA option to the prosecutors judgement being overruled. This would have been more than enough to make a stink but would any in the media have cared? I doubt it. This is only a story because JWR choose to make an issue of it an everyone loves a good soap opera.

It wasn't direction, it was pressure. "It's your decision, but." Obviously the implication was if you don't do it we will find someone who will and that's what would have happened if she hadn't made a stink.

It might still happen but it will have much greater consequences.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 12:37:13 pm
The question that needs to be asked is, "Is Waldo on the payroll of the Liberal Party of Canada?"

Considering you won't find one iota of criticism of the LPC in any of his 1263 posts, that is not an unreasonable question.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:01:52 pm
Not necessarily. The law requires any such direction to be published in the Canada Gazette. This means that any interested party could have connected the dots, followed the paper trail from SNC lobbying, the secret passage of the DPA option to the prosecutors judgement being overruled. This would have been more than enough to make a stink but would any in the media have cared? I doubt it. This is only a story because JWR choose to make an issue of it an everyone loves a good soap opera.

ya ya, I've already spoken to formal government notice... Canada Gazette publishing of a decision to change prosecution intent and/or direction - you appear to believe this 'transparency' is like a single-liner - a 'line item' entry without regard to rationale/justification?

Here's JWR exercising said lawful requirement within the Canada Gazette... in this SNC-Lavalin DPA circumstance how do you envision such conveyance, sans "Jody's truth"?

(https://i.imgur.com/BHOqjLl.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:03:38 pm
Considering you won't find one iota of criticism of the LPC in any of his 1263 posts, that is not an unreasonable question.

somehow you managed to ignore the original post... now only replying cause the waldo burned ya, hey!  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:06:25 pm
It wasn't direction, it was pressure. "It's your decision, but." Obviously the implication was if you don't do it we will find someone who will and that's what would have happened if she hadn't made a stink.

citation request for your stated, "but"... c'mon wilber, your declared, "obvious implication" needs qualification - no? Why are you a "St. Jody's truther"?  ;D
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 01:28:38 pm
Canadians get what happened.  They aren't stupid.  All the hand-wringing in this thread won't change that.  They usually make the right choice come election time, they have a very good track record, this comforts me.  If the trash needs to be taken out in Oct, they'll do it.

Canadians have already judged Singh as the incompetent fool that he is.  I'll wait with the rest of the voters to see who is the least blabbering fool between JT and Scheer.  What a sad sack of choices.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 01:35:27 pm
citation request for your stated, "but"... c'mon wilber, your declared, "obvious implication" needs qualification - no? Why are you a "St. Jody's truther"?  ;D

Come on. Trudeau said himself that he approached her because he thought she was still open to other options and he asked staff to follow up on it. At one point he also pointed out to her that he was the member for Papineau were SNC is based.

You would have to be pretty damn thick not to take that hint.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 01:50:52 pm
Come on. Trudeau said himself that he approached her because he thought she was still open to other options and he asked staff to follow up on it. At one point he also pointed out to her that he was the member for Papineau were SNC is based.

You would have to be pretty damn thick not to take that hint.

your stated "but" and your indicated "obvious implications" remain standing without you providing any qualification of same... ringing as hollow as the claimed (and unsubstantiated) "veiled threats" that only JWR has intimated. You choose to accept a trumped-up, media inflamed, fake-scandal - only because it aligns with your partisanship - doing so while you chastise others for same. Some, certainly not the waldo, would call you a hypocrite. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 02:10:34 pm
your stated "but" and your indicated "obvious implications" remain standing without you providing any qualification of same... ringing as hollow as the claimed (and unsubstantiated) "veiled threats" that only JWR has intimated. You choose to accept a trumped-up, media inflamed, fake-scandal - only because it aligns with your partisanship - doing so while you chastise others for same. Some, certainly not the waldo, would call you a hypocrite.

So, are you pretty damn thick or just a flack?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 02:23:49 pm
So, are you pretty damn thick or just a flack?

I see you choosing not to offer the (multiple times now) request for you to qualify your implication of veiled threats. Choosing instead to attempt to marginalize with an insult laden personalization that says more about you and your failings.

since you went to the effort with your latest posted video slag, please take additional effort to offer your profound insights to this one - hey?

https://youtu.be/Fefs3WSO9KI
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 02:37:40 pm
apparently...Jumpin'-Jane wants back in! (https://ipolitics.ca/2019/03/08/philpott-hails-trudeau-for-transforming-canada-with-gender-balanced-cabinet/)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 02:50:53 pm
Really? Where does it say that?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 02:52:57 pm
Really? Where does it say that?

I see you choosing not to offer the (multiple times now) request for you to qualify your implication of veiled threats. Choosing instead to attempt to marginalize with an insult laden personalization that says more about you and your failings.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 08, 2019, 03:01:42 pm
Trudeau worked longer than Scheer did as an insurance salesman. 

Scheer was an MP at 25.

Trudeau also had far more experience than Harper, but somehow those who are infatuated by his hair never acknowledge that.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 03:43:58 pm
Trudeau also had far more experience than Harper, but somehow those who are infatuated by his hair never acknowledge that.
Experience at what? Harper was three years younger when he first became an MP and three years older when he became PM.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2019, 03:53:33 pm
Harper called a snap election citing his minority government had become dysfunctional... today, MilquetoastScheer didn't care for one wag asking him if he (also) wanted an early election in line with his like claims of dysfunction. Milquetoast said no, no, no... that the timing wasn't right... something about a lot more milking to be done!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 04:04:35 pm
Trudeau's degrees are arts and education and Harper has a masters in economics.

Methinks waldo needs a nap.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 08, 2019, 04:11:43 pm
Trudeau's degrees are arts and education and Harper has a masters in economics.

Methinks waldo needs a nap.

And don't forget, he was able to get work when his daddy hired him to work in the mailroom at Imperial Oil.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 08, 2019, 04:22:16 pm
Harper has a masters in economics.

That would make him a master bullshyter.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 08, 2019, 08:31:37 pm
Not sure if this story from the Globe and Mail, in regards to the interaction between Caesar-Chavannes and Trudeau, has been posted yet or not:

"Ms. Caesar-Chavannes, a first-term MP from the Toronto area, said she had told Mr. Trudeau in a phone call on Feb. 12 that she would be announcing her decision not to run again in the October election. She said Mr. Trudeau told her to wait, because Ms. Wilson-Raybould had quit cabinet that day. She felt that he was worried about “the optics of having two women of colour leaving,” Ms. Caesar-Chavannes said.

A source with the PMO who was not authorized to discuss details on the record said Mr. Trudeau was concerned that her decision would be associated with the SNC-Lavalin affair, but did not raise any concerns about race.

Ms. Caesar-Chavannes said she had told him that she hoped he could one day understand the impact that political life has had on her family. She said threats to her safety have been made against her in the past.

“He was yelling. He was yelling that I didn’t appreciate him, that he’d given me so much,” Ms. Caesar-Chavannes said."


source: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-liberal-mp-celina-caesar-chavannes-says-she-was-met-with-hostility/
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 08, 2019, 08:38:09 pm
People have emotions, disagreements, and arguments.  Stop the presses.  Well, most of the media already did. 

Seriously, this is a story?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 08, 2019, 09:01:58 pm
People have emotions, disagreements, and arguments.  Stop the presses.  Well, most of the media already did. 

Seriously, this is a story?

If true, it paints the "champion of Women" Justin Trudeau as somewhat of a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2019, 09:04:13 pm
People have emotions, disagreements, and arguments.  Stop the presses.  Well, most of the media already did. 

Seriously, this is a story?


If it is true, then yes. If not, it is also yes but for a different reason.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 09:17:18 pm
If true, it paints the "champion of Women" Justin Trudeau as somewhat of a hypocrite.

She's also a bit of a nutter.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 09:37:29 pm
People have emotions, disagreements, and arguments.  Stop the presses.  Well, most of the media already did. 

Seriously, this is a story?

Trudeau and Butts just spoke at length this week about how they always act professionally and want people to come to them if they have disagreements/problems and Trudeau is just golly shucks just a great understanding boss.  She just peed all over that carefully crafted narrative.  She's saying the premise of his defense against JWR's claims are full of shyte. I'd say it's a story. 

Quote
“I believe real leadership is about listening, learning & compassion...central to my leadership is fostering an environment where my Ministers, caucus & staff feel comfortable coming to me when they have concerns” I did come to you recently. Twice. Remember your reactions?
https://twitter.com/MPCelina/status/1103680760337260545

JT is getting ****-slapped so hard in 2019.  I've never seen a Canadian leader lose control of his caucus like this.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 09:55:29 pm
Quote
“He was yelling. He was yelling that I didn’t appreciate him, that he’d given me so much,” Ms. Caesar-Chavannes said.

She said she yelled back at him, and Mr. Trudeau eventually apologized. She said she agreed to his request the next day to hold off on making her announcement until early March.

A week later after a caucus meeting, Ms. Caesar-Chavannes said she had approached Mr. Trudeau to talk about their previous interaction.

“I went to him, I said, ‘Look I know our last conversation wasn’t the greatest but …,’ and at that point I stopped talking because I realized he was angry,” she said.  “Again, I was met with hostility. This stare-down … then him stomping out of the room without a word.”

Well I now believe just about everything JWR said.  Justin Trudeau is a tantrum-throwing man-baby with anger-management issues.  What a complete jerk and total hypocrite.  These PM's have so much power it just goes to their heads.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 09:59:42 pm
This story just dropped at the G&M 4 hours ago.  This is going to be all over the news tomorrow.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2019, 10:33:41 pm
As for Celina being a bit of a nutter...what made her think it was a good idea to choose that exact day to tell her boss, who is in the middle of dealing with a crisis, that she was not going to run again and she wants to announce it?  She's stated she made the decision back in the fall.  It couldn't wait a few more weeks to tell the boss?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 05:06:45 am
Politicians are human beings.  We seem to forget that when we don't like the 'other guy'.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 08:47:47 am
Politicians are human beings.  We seem to forget that when we don't like the 'other guy'.

This is true but Trudeau’s love of preaching to others raises the standard for his own conduct if he is to avoid being a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 09:11:54 am
This is true but Trudeau’s love of preaching to others raises the standard for his own conduct if he is to avoid being a hypocrite.

Like I said, he's a human.  I don't expect more from any other human than from myself.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 09:29:00 am
Like I said, he's a human.  I don't expect more from any other human than from myself.


Fine but someone who loves preaching to others should be aware that they will be held to a higher standard. This is being shown in polls where Trudeau’s own numbers have taken a much bigger hit than his party’s.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 09:36:17 am


Fine but someone who loves preaching to others should be aware that they will be held to a higher standard. This is being shown in polls where Trudeau’s own numbers have taken a much bigger hit than his party’s.

Who says he doesn’t hold himself to a higher standard? 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2019, 09:46:50 am
Politicians are human beings.  We seem to forget that when we don't like the 'other guy'.

Yes he's human, he's also supposed to conduct himself in a professional manner and treat people respectfully, especially that he's in a position of tremendous power.  I've had lots of bad days, I've never yelled at a colleague.  I've never yelled at a colleague i had authority over and then a few weeks later stared them down and ran off in anger.

I don't understand why you keep apologizing for the man in virtually all of his misconduct.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 10:31:01 am
Who says he doesn’t hold himself to a higher standard?
Wouldn’t know but Justin is fond of preaching to others which means others will hold him to the standards he preaches. I like some of the things he stands for but the holier than thou attitude he often projects has always grated on me.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 11:02:47 am
Yes he's human, he's also supposed to conduct himself in a professional manner and treat people respectfully, especially that he's in a position of tremendous power.  I've had lots of bad days, I've never yelled at a colleague.

A ) She's not his colleague, he's her boss.
B ) We only know what she says happened - we don't know what his conduct actually was or what she did.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 11:32:56 am
A ) She's not his colleague, he's her boss.
B ) We only know what she says happened - we don't know what his conduct actually was or what she did.

The AG is not the PM's colleague or employee, they are responsible for enforcing the country's laws, period. The PM may be able to hire and fire the AG but they are independent as long as they are AG. This is really not much different from Trump's treatment of the US AG's, just done behind the scenes instead of on Twitter and FOX News.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 12:00:45 pm
The AG is not the PM's colleague or employee, they are responsible for enforcing the country's laws, period. The PM may be able to hire and fire the AG but they are independent as long as they are AG.

Sure, and he 'fired' her.  That's what this is about.  And really, when it comes down to it, the AG is a cabinet minister - they are supposed to make decisions in consultation with cabinet, even if the final decision is theirs alone.  It's now known that she was being stubborn and was keeping legal opinions from cabinet related to this case.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 12:17:48 pm
Sure, and he 'fired' her.  That's what this is about.  And really, when it comes down to it, the AG is a cabinet minister - they are supposed to make decisions in consultation with cabinet, even if the final decision is theirs alone.  It's now known that she was being stubborn and was keeping legal opinions from cabinet related to this case.

Not the AG. The law isn't a political consensus. If a government doesn't like a law, then change it. Until then, obey it.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 12:21:16 pm
Not the AG. The law isn't a political consensus. If a government doesn't like a law, then change it. Until then, obey it.

Except this issue isn't about obeying or changing a law, it was about whether or not to apply an existing law.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 09, 2019, 12:49:55 pm
People have emotions, disagreements, and arguments.  Stop the presses.  Well, most of the media already did. 

Seriously, this is a story?

Only in that it somewhat flies in the face of Trudeau's talk of building a warm, welcoming place where people could talk to him freely to share their concerns and discuss issues and blah blah blah.  Ms Caesar-Chavannes' account of how Trudeau reacted when she approached him with her issues makes Trudeau's description of his cabinet seem doubtful.  He was already mad, he was having a bad day, he had lots of other things on his mind, he probably didn't want to deal with her **** at that moment... but isn't that basically pretty much every day in a Prime Minister's life?  If he was having a bad day and frustrated and running out of patience when CCC called him to tell him she wasn't going to seek reelection, isn't it pretty likely that he was in about the same mood when he was trying to get JWR to change her mind regarding SNC?


I have long believed that Prime Minister Trudeau is, in fact, a very "alpha" man.  People think he's a wimp because of his soft spoken and "woke" manner and endorsement of progressive and humanist ideas. But people are wrong-- this guy is not a wimp. This is a guy who will go do a town hall with a room full of angry Calgarian oil workers or angry native rights activists without even flinching. He's the opposite of Trump.  Trump puts on this big fake alpha-male act to overcompensate for the fact that deep inside, he's an insecure little man who desperately needs people to think he's a big deal.  Trudeau is the opposite-- he doesn't need to do anything to act "alpha" because he's extremely secure and confident.  He projects a patient, gentle, understanding persona, but I have no doubt that he can also be a very imposing person.   

I have known a few people like this... one of my coworkers in particular comes to mind. A guy who is incredibly pleasant and reasonable and respectful, but when he's had enough-- a customer is being a dick, a door-to-door salesman won't take no for an answer, the street people outside are raising a ruckus, or whatever-- pleasant and respectful go out the window and you see an incredibly forceful personality take over the situation and deal with all bullshit very quickly.  I believe Trudeau is probably much the same.  CCC called him up in the middle of a crisis to bother her with **** he didn't have time for and thought she'd be talking to the Sunny Ways guy, but instead she ended up talking to the formidable no-time-for-this-**** guy instead.

That's my sense, anyway.  My hunch is that when the doors are closed, Mr Trudeau is a much more commanding and imposing person than the gentle, woke person we see on TV, and is used to getting what he wants.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 09, 2019, 01:10:26 pm
The National Observer is an unabashedly left-wing site, but this article is still worth a read.  It goes into some detail on how the UK has used their Deferred Prosecution Agreement law, on which ours is modeled, and talks about the case of Rolls-Royce, who were denied a DPA despite similar "economic impact" arguments being presented on their behalf.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/03/08/analysis/hidden-key-snc-lavalin-scandal

Key factors in discussing whether SNC deserved a chance at a DPA:

Quote
The Criminal Code then sets out a number of circumstances that the prosecutor MUST consider, which are similar to the U.K. framework:

These include whether the accused organization self-reported to authorities (it did not); the nature and gravity of the offence (extremely serious); the involvement of senior officers (high); whether the organization has entered into a previous remediation agreement for similar conduct (multiple); whether the organization or its officers committed other offences (many).

Of special note is that the reported conduct continued over an extended period, almost a decade, with an extremely high dollar value.

On the positive side for SNC-Lavalin, it fired the people directly involved, had a complete turnover of senior management, and have instituted better internal checks and balances. So there's that.

In discussing SNC's eligibility for a DPA, this article sides with Ms Roussel:

Quote
In sum, SNC fails on all the primary tests a prosecutor would take into account, and passes only the most marginal or peripheral ones. Barring evidentiary issues that we have no way to assess, there is more than ample reason to support the determination of the DPP, and no substantial cause to overturn it.



Also discussed is the fact that the Gadaffi regime were awful people, and SNC cheerfully cozied up to them knowing full well how much blood was on their hands.  This passage, while perhaps somewhat emotional, deserves some consideration by people who keep talking about "9000 jobs":

Quote
SNC, a corporate giant, bribed a bloody despot's regime in exchange for billions in contracts

(...)

Canadians need a lot more context about what this case is about.
We need to talk about where this money went and who got hurt

At its heart, the SNC prosecution is the embodiment of the OECD anti-bribery framework to which Canada has long been a signatory, and on which our legislation, including DPAs, is modeled.

Corruption strikes the weak and disenfranchised first, last, and hardest.

It’s not the affluent who find bodies dumped on the side of the road, or militias opening fire on rebels and dissidents. Or have to re-assemble brutalized women and girls.

As soon as priorities shift to the most vulnerable victims of corruption, it's not hard to see why the AG declined to overturn the decision of Kathleen Roussel, Canada's DPP, to proceed to trial.

A corruption prosecution of this gravity is unprecedented in Canada.

Moreover, had the Libyan regime not collapsed and the bribery discovered, would this company still be in the game, still arranging prostitute parties and funnelling money to the Gaddafis?


 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 01:21:00 pm
Only in that it somewhat flies in the face of Trudeau's talk of building a warm, welcoming place where people could talk to him freely to share their concerns and discuss issues and blah blah blah.  Ms Caesar-Chavannes' account of how Trudeau reacted when she approached him with her issues makes Trudeau's description of his cabinet seem doubtful.

with the official PMO statement reading there was absolutely no hostility from PM Trudeau towards the member. You will choose to accept her account because... you want to. I certainly won't go as far as those in this thread labeling her a "nutter"; however, as conveyed previously in this thread, she has many-times-over displayed her, as she self-describes, "fiery and uncensored" traits. Again, you (as others) will dismiss all the other female cabinet ministers positive testimonies coming forward in the last days - you'll simply dismiss them as "they're just towing the party line". What's quite telling is your most selective choices for "empowered women telling their truth"!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 01:24:21 pm
Not the AG. The law isn't a political consensus. If a government doesn't like a law, then change it. Until then, obey it.

If that were actually the case, the AG wouldn't be a politician sitting in cabinet.  It doesn't really matter what's supposed to happen given that.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 09, 2019, 01:46:35 pm
with the official PMO statement reading there was absolutely no hostility from PM Trudeau towards the member.

Perhaps, to borrow Mr Butts' phrase, "she experienced it differently."

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 01:52:09 pm
Key factors in discussing whether SNC deserved a chance at a DPA:

In discussing SNC's eligibility for a DPA, this article sides with Ms Roussel:


Also discussed is the fact that the Gadaffi regime were awful people, and SNC cheerfully cozied up to them knowing full well how much blood was on their hands.  This passage, while perhaps somewhat emotional, deserves some consideration by people who keep talking about "9000 jobs":

and that NatOb writer hasn't seen the the DDPC's DPPC's assessment... the one that actually over-ruled the initial assessment done that intended to offer SNC-Lavalin an opportunity to negotiate within a DPA. But why would that stop the writer from expounding upon pure speculation?

more pointedly the actions of a few executives (now long-gone/departed from the company) leaves conviction/sentencing... principally fines... to be directed towards the company. The same thing that would occur under a DPA... a DPA that, by design/extension, has to be approved by a judge/court. Of course, along with that, the company (probably) does not get recognized for any remediation initiatives it has already enacted... succumbs to a criminal conviction... and loses the ability to bid on federal contracts for a decade. Who wins in this scenario... the oft quoted innocent of any wrong-doing 16,000 workers (direct employees and supply-chain), shareholders, pensioners, etc.?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 01:55:13 pm
Perhaps, to borrow Mr Butts' phrase, "she experienced it differently."

that doesn't sound like Butts... perhaps Wernick? In any case, would it be as "differently experienced", as the positive testimonies coming forward from other female cabinet ministers - yes?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2019, 02:38:21 pm
Shockingly, the PM/PMO are saying there was "absolutely no hostility" from Justin Trudeau towards Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes.  We believe you Justin! 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-celina-caesar-chavannes-hostility-1.5050129
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 02:43:59 pm
Shockingly, the PM/PMO are saying there was "absolutely no hostility" from Justin Trudeau towards Liberal MP Celina Caesar-Chavannes.  We believe you Justin! 

Why is that any less believable than her account?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 09, 2019, 02:45:55 pm
Why is that any less believable than her account?

Same reason Wernick and Butts were less believable than JWR.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 02:56:26 pm
Except this issue isn't about obeying or changing a law, it was about whether or not to apply an existing law.

Exactly. Do you think laws should be applied for partisan political purposes? SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: ?Impact on March 09, 2019, 03:12:29 pm
SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.

SNC has 86 offices across the country, that would exclude a lot of MPs. The head office however is on René-Lévesque Boulevard in downtown Montreal and not Trudeau's Papineau riding. I remember a former Prime Minister from Calgary, should he have done nothing concerning the oil industry?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 03:30:44 pm
Exactly. Do you think laws should be applied for partisan political purposes? SNC is in Trudeau’s riding, he is the last person who should be talking to an AG about the case.

You could call considering the potential loss of 9000 jobs simply a partisan issue if you like, but the purpose the law was originally enacted was to attempt to prevent such occurrences. I see no reason such issues shouldn't be discussed at the highest levels. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 04:01:01 pm
You could call considering the potential loss of 9000 jobs simply a partisan issue if you like, but the purpose the law was originally enacted was to attempt to prevent such occurrences. I see no reason such issues shouldn't be discussed at the highest levels.

So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 04:07:25 pm
So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.

please provide your definition of "strong arm"... as you also provide citation(s) of evidence for same - thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 04:19:57 pm
So you think a PM should be able to strongarm an AG. Just remember that next time you want to be critical of Trump for doing the same thing.

Nope, I certainly don't think that and I haven't seen any proof that was done. He said he asked her to reconsider the issue, but that it was her final decision. She said nothing illegal was done, but she felt some pressure she didn't like. The whole thing is still basically nebulous.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2019, 04:39:03 pm
Why is that any less believable than her account?

Seriously?

What does she have to gain by making false accusations?  What does she have to lose by making them?

What does he have to gain by denying them?  What does he have to lose by admitting them?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 04:40:25 pm
Seriously?

What does she have to gain by making false accusations?  What does she have to lose by making them?

The spotlight, and nothing.  She's bringing public things that should have been handled privately.  It's quite clear that she wasn't ready for politics.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2019, 04:49:49 pm
The spotlight, and nothing.

She's specifically getting out of politics because she doesn't want to be in the spotlight anymore, because of threats etc. to her and her family.

Nothing?  If the allegations are completely false he could sue her for libel and slander.

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 05:08:55 pm
Nope, I certainly don't think that and I haven't seen any proof that was done. He said he asked her to reconsider the issue, but that it was her final decision. She said nothing illegal was done, but she felt some pressure she didn't like. The whole thing is still basically nebulous.

So when a boss “asks” someone under them to “reconsider” an issue, you don’t think that means they want a certain outcome?

Never mind legality, are you saying ethics don’t enter into it?
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 05:38:10 pm
So when a boss “asks” someone under them to “reconsider” an issue, you don’t think that means they want a certain outcome?

Never mind legality, are you saying ethics don’t enter into it?

Of course ethics matter, and so do 9000 jobs. Underscoring the latter in a discussion does not necessarily obviate the former, especially if, as has been reported, the discussion included affirmation that the final discussion was JWR's. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 06:16:30 pm
Of course ethics matter, and so do 9000 jobs. Underscoring the latter in a discussion does not necessarily obviate the former, especially if, as has been reported, the discussion included affirmation that the final discussion was JWR's.

So ethics can always be trumped. So where is the line as far as you are concerned when it comes to political involvement in law enforcement? Law enforcement is either at arms length from politics or it isn't. Make up your mind.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: poochy on March 09, 2019, 08:17:07 pm
So many liberals are hopelessly stuck in that moment just after you have dropped your toast on the counter and are powerlessly watching to see if lands buttered side down, meanwhile it did, about a month ago.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 08:46:28 pm
So ethics can always be trumped. So where is the line as far as you are concerned when it comes to political involvement in law enforcement? Law enforcement is either at arms length from politics or it isn't. Make up your mind.

JWR has said publicly that nothing illegal occurred here. JT claims he asked her to re consider while affirming to her that the final decision was hers alone to make. I don't see where ethics was "trumped". 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 09:19:35 pm
JWR has said publicly that nothing illegal occurred here. JT claims he asked her to re consider while affirming to her that the final decision was hers alone to make. I don't see where ethics was "trumped".

So you do think political interference in the justice system is ethical. Noted.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 09:40:06 pm
So many liberals are hopelessly stuck in that moment just after you have dropped your toast on the counter and are powerlessly watching to see if lands buttered side down, meanwhile it did, about a month ago.

Fortunately, it's likely to be long forgotten by October.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 09:48:52 pm
Fortunately, it's likely to be long forgotten by October.

I'll bet it's blown over by St. Paddy's Day.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 09:53:44 pm
Fortunately, it's likely to be long forgotten by October.

"Fortunately" That says a lot. If you guys think that anything that isn't illegal is ethical, we have a completely different view of the world.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2019, 10:01:01 pm
"Fortunately" That says a lot. If you guys think that anything that isn't illegal is ethical, we have a completely different view of the world.

I think that I'd rather Trudeau than Andrew Scheer.  I'm realistic in believing that those are the only two people who can possibly end up as prime minister post election. 

I maintain that this is normal politics that has come out in the open.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 10:11:50 pm
I think that I'd rather Trudeau than Andrew Scheer.  I'm realistic in believing that those are the only two people who can possibly end up as prime minister post election. 

I maintain that this is normal politics that has come out in the open.

So you have no problem with politicians manipulating the legal system for political purposes. Noted.

I don't have a problem with who you might prefer as PM but I don't see how you can just blow something like this off as normal and ethical.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2019, 10:30:54 pm
I say again, all we really have so far is a lot of "he said, she said". Until we have something more solid it's easy for political bias to be applied. 
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2019, 11:10:56 pm
Quote
As Trudeau acknowledged Thursday in his first news conference about the SNC-Lavalin imbroglio, even after JWR told him and Privy Council Clerk Michael Wernick on Sept. 17 of “her intention not to proceed with” a DPA, or deferred prosecution agreement, for SNC, he himself asked her to reassess the matter and told his staff to follow up.

He did also remind her, Trudeau agreed, that he was the member from Papineau, just as JWR had testified he did, and “stressed the importance of Canadian jobs.”

Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 11:39:45 pm
please provide your definition of "strong arm"... as you also provide citation(s) of evidence for same - thanks in advance.

c'mon wilber, spare some of your spout-off energy to answer this, hey!
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2019, 11:51:24 pm
c'mon wilber!!! As I mentioned several times in the past, any decision (whether from the DPPSC... or the AG) is not binding until court commences and a verdict is rendered. Up to that point any decision to prosecute can be changed. Of course, this presumes upon an understanding that the AG, one JWR, actually formalized her said decision... put it in writing. Certainly, one might expect that decision to also be supported with a legal basis/foundation. Hey wilber, can ya get to it... can you present both those... can ya, hey!

while you're spouting off about ethics, can you manage to rustle up an explanation for the following - it was a reply to member Rue, but he never answers anything... it gets in the way of his Gish Gallop routine. So, be a bro... stand in for member Rue and comment on the following - sure you can!

did what? No illegalities... even St. Jody said so. The only person claiming "improper pressure" is JWR. While you're so advocating for St. Jody, perhaps you could speak to why she refused to provide a most relevant report to the PCO - hence to cabinet? C'mon buddy, you keep calling others out - why don't you answer for why she spiked that report!

(https://i.imgur.com/6GpMteV.png)
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: eyeball on March 10, 2019, 12:15:35 am
Of course ethics matter, and so do 9000 jobs.
People's jobs should matter in a case involving an isolated crime committed by a couple of rogue individuals in a company with an otherwise clean record. Given the long, rancid and egregious record of SNC Lavalin's however, there comes a point when people need to take some responsibility for who they choose to work for. I could care less what happens to SNCs employees, they're like asbestos miners who should know better.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2019, 10:48:09 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc-lavalin-david-lametti-deferred-prosecution-agreement-1.5048528
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: kimmy on March 10, 2019, 11:32:41 am
I maintain that this is normal politics that has come out in the open.

Possibly, but it still stinks, and we were promised better. That was one of the key promises that got the Liberals elected, remember? Better politics, openness, accountability, transparency? 

Also an end to omnibus bills.  They bitterly complained about Harper doing that, and made an explicit campaign promise to not do it. I think they called it anti-democratic. They said their commitment to doing democratic reform included an end to using omnibus bills. Then they proceed to use an omnibus bill as a means of getting the DPA legislation passed as quickly as possible.

This doesn't look like what we were promised.  This just looks like crony capitalism.  You can defend it as business as usual, but Trudeau promised to change business as usual.

 -k
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2019, 12:06:43 pm
Possibly, but it still stinks, and we were promised better.

I feel like a lot of you are really naive about humans and how their brains operate.
Title: Re: Trudeau accused in SNC-Lavalin scandal
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2019, 12:09:16 pm
I feel like a lot of you are really naive about humans and how their brains operate.

Well they were easily played by JT.