Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 05, 2019, 01:33:23 pm

Title: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 05, 2019, 01:33:23 pm
McGill University is considering a name change to their athletic teams. 

Quote
The Redmen name dates back to the 1920s and has been described as a tribute to the team’s red uniforms. But in the 1950s, men’s and women’s teams came to be referred to as the "Indians" or "Squaws." Some teams adopted a logo with an Indigenous man wearing a headdress in 1980s, until its use was stopped in 1992.

In a November referendum, 79 per cent of students supported abandoning the Redmen name. The vote followed a campaign by Indigenous staff and students to drop the name they consider derogatory.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/usports/mcgill-announce-decision-contentious-redmen-team-name-january/

IMO, the name seems derogatory and archaic.  They can find a better one.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 05, 2019, 01:39:09 pm
To add:

 
Quote
"Redmen” came about as a reference to the university’s dominant colour — “red helmets, red sweaters and red trousers,” as the Montreal Gazette pithily put it in 1946.

--------------------
Certainly, the name has been perverted in the past, sometimes by McGill’s own hand. The school women’s teams were colloquially known as “The Squaws” and “Super-Squaws” until a name change to Martlets in 1976. Yearbooks of the time often played on the lazy and unfortunate Redmen double entendre with headlines like “Redman scalped.”

The university also changed the Redmen logo in the early 1980s; for just under a decade, the football and men’s hockey logo featured a native chief’s head, complete with headdress. Students rightly complained, and the university rightly backtracked, replacing the logo at a cost of $5,000 in 1992. History was then righted, and a stereotype wiped out. It was money well spent.

McGill shouldn’t cave to pressure this time around; to do so would be to demonstrate cowardice, not conviction. The history and intent behind the name bear none of the ugly precepts still very much present with the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians, to name but two. Changing it would be to give power and legitimacy to stereotypes the name was never meant to invoke.


https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/martin-patriquin-mcgill-redmen-should-keep-their-name

The author of this op/ed says contradictory things...  that it was never meant as an indigenous reference...  until it was...  then it wasn't.   Well, clearly it was at some point.  And I think this is enough to ditch the name for something else.

If they could point and say "it has never meant anything with respect to indigenous people", I think they'd be on firmer ground.   But their logo was a native caricature.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: ?Impact on February 05, 2019, 01:58:25 pm
History was then righted, and a stereotype wiped out. It was money well spent.

McGill shouldn’t cave to pressure this time around; to do so would be to demonstrate cowardice, not conviction.

If the original history was all there was, then there would be no problem. Unfortunately there is significant period of history that isn't wiped out or righted, because you can't change history with money. I really couldn't care less one way or the other, but if 79% of the stakeholders say it should be changed then it would be cowardice and not conviction to cave to the right wing extremists that think that being anti-social [justice warriors] makes them superior.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2019, 02:07:40 pm
Whatever it has come to mean, is what it means. It's unfortunate if something that was just intended to reflect the colour of a uniform has become derogatory, but if it has, it has. No one considers the New Zealand All Blacks to be racist, it is the name of all their mens national rugby teams, including the Maori All Blacks, (I have one of their T shirts) so it doesn't have to be that way.

https://allblackshop.com/product-category/maori-all-blacks/
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: kimmy on February 05, 2019, 10:04:42 pm
Red-Men sounds like an ethnic slur, regardless of what its original intent was.

I have been thinking for a while that maybe the Edmonton Eskimos ought to change their name. They could keep the uniforms and EE logo and everything else... but if the name is considered an ethnic slur, then I think it's time to move on.  If it was "the McGill Darkies" or "the Edmonton Fightin' Kikes", nobody would hesitate a moment. "Red-Men" and "Eskimos" don't evoke the same discomfort, but maybe they should.

It's sometimes interesting to look back and see if our views have changed.  Here is another message I wrote on this topic a while back (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/cultural-appropriation-culture/msg25053/#msg25053):

Following the sports team thought for a moment...   how do the following names and logos make you feel?


Washington Redskins
(https://i.imgur.com/zaXd6YG.png)


Florida Seminoles
(https://i.imgur.com/nAjSuJJ.jpg)


Edmonton Eskimos
(https://i.imgur.com/LZCZz1M.jpg)

Cleveland Indians
(https://i.imgur.com/XRsO9x4.png)

Notre Dame Fighting Irish
(https://i.imgur.com/ktwLt4z.jpg)


With the Eskimos, even though they have long removed anything aboriginal-related from the branding, the name itself is considered an ethnic slur against Inuit, akin to referring to Jews as Kikes or Italians as Wops. I think obviously there'd be a lot of discomfort if somebody named their pro sports team "the Brooklyn Wops".   The Redskins is similar.  Not sure how I feel about the logo... it's obviously a depiction of a historical Native American, but I'm not sure it's an offensive depiction.  The Cleveland Indians logo is pretty clearly offensive.

All of the above have caused some amount of controversy, and I can understand the reasons why.  With the Florida Seminoles, I find neither the name nor the logo offensive. I've never actually heard of any controversy involving the Florida Seminoles, and I included it here because I thought maybe it might be an example of something where the line is harder to describe.  And the same with the Fighting Irish logo... is it actually offensive to Irish people?

 -k
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2019, 10:15:18 pm
How about Minnesota Vikings?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/48/Minnesota_Vikings_logo.svg/800px-Minnesota_Vikings_logo.svg.png)
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 05, 2019, 10:28:35 pm
Aren't they kinda complimenting them in way also too?  Like, if you name your team after them you're saying you want to exude their warrior-ness.  Ya it's a bit stereotyping.  But there's no sports team called the Calgary Clowns or Washington Losers or Edmonton Drunken Natives.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: kimmy on February 05, 2019, 10:37:04 pm
How about Minnesota Vikings?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/48/Minnesota_Vikings_logo.svg/800px-Minnesota_Vikings_logo.svg.png)

Personally I don't find either the name or the logo to be offensive.  It references a stereotypical Viking figure, but not in a negative way.

 Kind of like the Florida Seminoles-- it references the native tribe, but not in a negative way and their logo is classy and attractive.  I think there's a clear difference in tone between the Florida Seminoles and the Cleveland Indians.

The Minnesota Vikings were named to appeal to the large Scandinavian population in Minnesota. (My dad's grandparents were Minnesota Swedes, and not coincidentally the Vikings were my favorite team when I was a kid.)  Similar to the Boston Celtics being intended to appeal to Boston's substantial Irish community.  The Vikings and Celtics are a little different from the Indians, Seminoles, Redskins, or Blackhawks in that respect-- I don't think any of those teams ever envisioned their stadiums being filled with crowds of native Americans.

 -k
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2019, 11:03:02 pm
I don't know if it is in a negative way or not, I'm not Scandinavian. I do know that real Vikings didn't have horns on their helmets. I do agree that they are different. One major difference is that the races depicted are both white.  That is not to say that the Eskimos, Braves, Indians, Redskins etc are complimentary.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 05, 2019, 11:22:56 pm
The term ‘viking’ is not in any way an ethnic slur.   Redmen is.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2019, 11:44:16 pm
The term ‘viking’ is not in any way an ethnic slur.   Redmen is.

Maybe, depends on the context. The particular image of a Viking is not a Scandinavian but German and the horned helmets come from Wagner operas. If you dress a team in red and call it the Redmen, that is not an ethnic slur in itself.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 12:30:35 am
Maybe, depends on the context. The particular image of a Viking is not a Scandinavian but German and the horned helmets come from Vagner operas. If you dress a team in red and call it the Redmen, that is not an ethnic slur in itself.

I acknowledged that in the OP...   that if it had never been used in that way, I wouldn’t have an issue with the name. 
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: cybercoma on February 06, 2019, 10:35:07 am
Red-Men sounds like an ethnic slur, regardless of what its original intent was.

All of the above have caused some amount of controversy, and I can understand the reasons why. 

 -k
Really, the only people who don't see the problem are those who attempt to eliminate the historical context of the names and the subsequent connotation that has built around those historical contexts. It's very easy to not be aware of or sensitive to those issues when you're not the target of the abuse that came along with them.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 10:55:10 am
Maybe, depends on the context. The particular image of a Viking is not a Scandinavian but German and the horned helmets come from Wagner operas. If you dress a team in red and call it the Redmen, that is not an ethnic slur in itself. I heard the symbol was a Norseman, Germanic in origin, residing in Scandinavia.



How would one know the difference between a German and a Scandinavian?
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 11:00:58 am
Personally I don't find either the name or the logo to be offensive.  It references a stereotypical Viking figure, but not in a negative way.

 Kind of like the Florida Seminoles-- it references the native tribe, but not in a negative way and their logo is classy and attractive.  I think there's a clear difference in tone between the Florida Seminoles and the Cleveland Indians.

The Minnesota Vikings were named to appeal to the large Scandinavian population in Minnesota. (My dad's grandparents were Minnesota Swedes, and not coincidentally the Vikings were my favorite team when I was a kid.)  Similar to the Boston Celtics being intended to appeal to Boston's substantial Irish community.  The Vikings and Celtics are a little different from the Indians, Seminoles, Redskins, or Blackhawks in that respect-- I don't think any of those teams ever envisioned their stadiums being filled with crowds of native Americans.

 -k

I've heard the Seminole tribe has given the logo their blessing. Obviously this is not the case for the Redskins, Indians, or Braves. University of North Dakota recently changed their logo from Fighting Sioux to Fighting Hawks.

I have not read many complaints about the Edmonton Eskimo name.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 11:07:33 am

The Minnesota Vikings were named to appeal to the large Scandinavian population in Minnesota. (My dad's grandparents were Minnesota Swedes, and not coincidentally the Vikings were my favorite team when I was a kid.)  Similar to the Boston Celtics being intended to appeal to Boston's substantial Irish community. 
 -k
I'm part Scandinavian, and coming from Winnipeg, the most popular  NFL team has always been the Vikings due to the relatively close proximity between Minnesota and Manitoba. You don't know heartbreak and pain like you would, if you were a lifelong Vikings fan. The 1998 NFC championship, and Anderson's missed FG is a particular sore spot for me.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: guest7 on February 06, 2019, 11:10:40 am
You don't know heartbreak and pain like you would, if you were a lifelong Vikings fan. The 1998 NFC championship, and Anderson's missed FG is a particular sore spot for me.

You don't know you're born.  Try being a Bradford City fan.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 11:52:15 am
How would one know the difference between a German and a Scandinavian?

Pretty sure Germans and Scandinavians know. I'm not saying anyone should be offended but the character used as the Vikings logo originated in Wagner operas, not Scandinavia.

I guess cultural appropriation only applies if someone is offended but there seems to be a surplus of white folks who love to be offended by other cultures being appropriated.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 11:57:11 am
I'm part Scandinavian, and coming from Winnipeg, the most popular  NFL team has always been the Vikings due to the relatively close proximity between Minnesota and Manitoba. You don't know heartbreak and pain like you would, if you were a lifelong Vikings fan. The 1998 NFC championship, and Anderson's missed FG is a particular sore spot for me.

I'm sure it goes back to the Bud Grant days in Winnipeg as well. Also a BC connection with Joe Kapp as QB in their first Super Bowl appearance.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 12:04:24 pm
I'm sure it goes back to the Bud Grant days in Winnipeg as well. Also a BC connection with Joe Kapp as QB in their first Super Bowl appearance.

Probably. Then again, Bud Grant led the Bombers to 4 Grey Cups. Minnesota has been to 4 Super Bowls, and about 9 or 10 NFC championship games, but never won the big game.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 12:15:40 pm
Probably. Then again, Bud Grant led the Bombers to 4 Grey Cups. Minnesota has been to 4 Super Bowls, and about 9 or 10 NFC championship games, but never won the big game.

On the other hand, there are teams that have never been to the big game and Buffalo lost four in a row.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 01:10:12 pm
Pretty sure Germans and Scandinavians know. I'm not saying anyone should be offended but the character used as the Vikings logo originated in Wagner operas, not Scandinavia.

I guess cultural appropriation only applies if someone is offended but there seems to be a surplus of white folks who love to be offended by other cultures being appropriated.

It's not about cultural appropriation, as far as I can tell...   it's about deliberately offensive terms and stereotypes being used for sports teams.  Vikings doesn't fit that criteria.

Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 01:15:29 pm
On the other hand, there are teams that have never been to the big game and Buffalo lost four in a row.

Buffalo is another city with incredibly bad luck. Super Bowls, Stanley Cups, OJ....
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 01:21:32 pm
It's not about cultural appropriation, as far as I can tell...   it's about deliberately offensive terms and stereotypes being used for sports teams.  Vikings doesn't fit that criteria.

It's not for me to determine whether the Vikings fit that criteria, I'm not Scandinavian descent. Are you?
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 01:26:48 pm
It's not for me to determine whether the Vikings fit that criteria, I'm not Scandinavian descent. Are you?

Yes.  I can find an "indian" alive today.   Can you find a viking?  They don't exist any longer, despite some new-age nonsense you might find.  We can find their descendants...   but there are no more vikings left to be insulted.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 01:36:44 pm
Yes.  I can find an "indian" alive today.   Can you find a viking?  They don't exist any longer, despite some new-age nonsense you might find.  We can find their descendants...   but there are no more vikings left to be insulted.

Say's you. Ever been to Iceland? Iceland even has a naming committee that keeps a register of approved Icelandic names. https://www.island.is/en/family/having_a_baby/name_giving/Just because Scandinavians don't dress like Vikings and travel around in longships doesn't mean they aren't descendent from them or that isn't part of their history. Who are we to decide what should  be offensive to other cultures?
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 01:46:44 pm
Say's you. Ever been to Iceland? Iceland even has a naming committee that keeps a register of approved Icelandic names. https://www.island.is/en/family/having_a_baby/name_giving/Just because Scandinavians don't dress like Vikings and travel around in longships doesn't mean they aren't descendent from them or that isn't part of their history. Who are we to decide what should  be offensive to other cultures?

Yes, I've been to Iceland.  I am 1st gen Canadian; family came from Norway.  I am related to people named Thor.

I said in my post that their descendents are there today.   I don't know if I'm descended from vikings...  probably not.  My family roots in Norway were more recent... came from the east...  northern Finland, maybe Russia.

But can you find a viking, or viking culture?  Sure...  Icelanders are proud of their heritage.  But they aren't vikings...  they're Icelanders.

The vikings also came from Sweden, Denmark and Norway.  Is there even a slur for viking?  The term itself isn't a slur.  The caricature of a viking is from a German opera, as you said.  You seem to be trying really hard to find an equivalent  caucasian offensive symbol...   I think you've failed with vikings.  Mayber Fighting Irish may be more of a slur...    but redmen is an actual racial slur, while Irish is not. 
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on February 06, 2019, 02:01:25 pm
  Mayber Fighting Irish may be more of a slur...    but redmen is an actual racial slur, while Irish is not.

Considering that the University of Norte Dame is a Catholic school built by the Irish, I would say that they would be ok with it
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 02:08:14 pm
Considering that the University of Norte Dame is a Catholic school built by the Irish, I would say that they would be ok with it

They might be OK with it at the school...  maybe not Irish people who don't appreciate being caricatured as drunken brawlers...   then again, it's probably not an issue with people of Irish descent.  While they were discriminated against historically, it was never to the level of indigenous discrimination...
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 02:34:18 pm
Yes, I've been to Iceland.  I am 1st gen Canadian; family came from Norway.  I am related to people named Thor.

I said in my post that their descendents are there today.   I don't know if I'm descended from vikings...  probably not.  My family roots in Norway were more recent... came from the east...  northern Finland, maybe Russia.

But can you find a viking, or viking culture?  Sure...  Icelanders are proud of their heritage.  But they aren't vikings...  they're Icelanders.

The vikings also came from Sweden, Denmark and Norway.  Is there even a slur for viking?  The term itself isn't a slur.  The caricature of a viking is from a German opera, as you said.  You seem to be trying really hard to find an equivalent  caucasian offensive symbol...   I think you've failed with vikings.  Mayber Fighting Irish may be more of a slur...    but redmen is an actual racial slur, while Irish is not.

Icelanders are probably the closest thing to pure Vikings there are. I'm trying to make a point here and it's not that Scandinavians should be offended by the Vikings logo. I don't know what should be offensive to other cultures. Personally, I see nothing offensive about the Redskins logo but can certainly see why the name could be offensive. Same goes for the Eskimos.On the other hand, I don't see anything particularly offensive  about the Indians or Braves name but can certainly see that the logos could be offensive. Either way, it is not for me to say.

As far as the Irish go, everyone is Irish on St Patricks day and none of your SJW's take umbrage if Li in Nanjing dons a kilt, plays the pipes badly and recites the Ode to a Haggis while knocking back a bottle of single malt on Robbie Burns Day. Why is that?
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 04:15:33 pm
Quote
your SJW's

huh?
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 04:20:59 pm
huh?

I didn't mean your as in your's personally.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 06, 2019, 04:23:18 pm
I didn't mean your as in your's personally.

I still don't understand the SJW reference...  you think indigenous people who are offended are SJWs?  Because I don't think this topic referenced any SJWs until you mentioned it.
Title: Re: McGIll Redmen
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2019, 05:02:57 pm
I still don't understand the SJW reference...  you think indigenous people who are offended are SJWs?  Because I don't think this topic referenced any SJWs until you mentioned it.

Maybe they are and maybe they aren’t. They are not the ones I am talking about. It’s one thing to support their wishes, quite another to presume to speak for them.