Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: wilber on December 18, 2018, 07:42:23 pm

Title: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2018, 07:42:23 pm
A hard Brexit is looking likely unless they can get their shit together. Might be a cheap place to visit next year provided they aren't rioting. Very disappointing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/19/business-watching-in-horror-as-pm-plans-for-no-deal-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bcsapper on December 18, 2018, 08:20:27 pm
More than disappointing.  It's downright embarrassing.  I've never seen such a shambolic mess.

With any luck they'll ditch the whole idea.  Get over the humiliation sometime next century.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2018, 08:55:15 pm
More than disappointing.  It's downright embarrassing.  I've never seen such a shambolic mess.

With any luck they'll ditch the whole idea.  Get over the humiliation sometime next century.

Hope so.  I was conceived a Brit and would be one except VA would only pay for my father's university in Canada. He was accepted in Britain and wanted to stay to do his schooling there.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on December 18, 2018, 08:58:07 pm



With any luck they'll ditch the whole idea.

You can't have a successful democracy if your leaders actively court idiots.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bcsapper on December 18, 2018, 09:17:17 pm
You can't have a successful democracy if your leaders actively court idiots.

What successful democracy hasn't at some time or other?  I don't know, I just think, given the number of idiots, it would be inevitable at some point.

To which idiots are you referring?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on December 18, 2018, 09:19:38 pm

To which idiots are you referring?

All of em...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bcsapper on December 18, 2018, 09:21:31 pm
All of em...

Well that would mean all democracies then.  I assume you mean the voters.  They all make mistakes sometimes. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2018, 10:29:45 pm
Well that would mean all democracies then.  I assume you mean the voters.  They all make mistakes sometimes.

They do but referendums aren’t legally binding. It’s Parliaments job do the right thing regardless.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on December 19, 2018, 05:39:54 am
Well that would mean all democracies then.  I assume you mean the voters.  They all make mistakes sometimes.

Maybe but .... I think I need to look at some examples ...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: waldo on December 19, 2018, 10:27:26 am
A hard Brexit is looking likely unless they can get their shit together.

was it a 'fair' campaign/vote? No wascally Russian influence... no treasonous Brits working with Ruskies...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bcsapper on December 19, 2018, 10:37:54 am
was it a 'fair' campaign/vote? No wascally Russian influence... no treasonous Brits working with Ruskies...

There was a Boris involved.  And a lot of misinformation, if I remember rightly.  Still, who cares?  It was a dumb idea that led to utter chaos.  Anyway they can find now to pretend it was all a dream is fine with me.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2018, 01:08:53 pm
Johnson, Farage, Gove and Co. Living proof that upper class twits weren't a Monty Python invention. Or did I say that already.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2018, 06:19:11 pm
Are Corbyn's days numbered as well? This gets more bizarre every week, both major parties are tearing themselves apart.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/corbyn-faces-furious-backlash-over-backing-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: bcsapper on December 22, 2018, 07:31:05 pm
Are Corbyn's days numbered as well? This gets more bizarre every week, both major parties are tearing themselves apart.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/corbyn-faces-furious-backlash-over-backing-brexit

I wonder what David Cameron is doing right now...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2018, 10:42:36 pm
I wonder what David Cameron is doing right now...

Laying low somewhere warm?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ?Impact on December 23, 2018, 12:15:01 pm
I wonder what David Cameron is doing right now...

Shirk your responsibilities to enjoy life.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on January 15, 2019, 02:14:53 pm
Not a good day, for Theresa May. Lost Brexit and now hit by a non-confidence. What happens now should be interesting.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on January 15, 2019, 04:40:44 pm
Not a good day, for Theresa May. Lost Brexit and now hit by a non-confidence. What happens now should be interesting.

She has done her bit, time to walk away and leave the mess to those who created it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on January 15, 2019, 04:52:58 pm
She has done her bit, time to walk away and leave the mess to those who created it.

Yeah I think that's what I would do. I never liked the whole concept of dismantling Europe anyway. Especially when you have Putin looking west licking his lips while having the current potus kissing his rosy red Russky arse.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ?Impact on January 15, 2019, 05:10:27 pm
She suggested the non-confidence motion, probably is fed up and wants a way out. She is right the today's vote didn't solve anything, there is a deadline soon approaching and no direction.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on January 15, 2019, 05:55:17 pm
I understand she will pass the vote, continuing the deadlock.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 15, 2019, 07:27:43 pm
I couldn't imagine the complexity of that deal.  It's amazing how many aspects of a policy the EU is involved in.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Rue on January 16, 2019, 08:32:37 am
You can't have a successful democracy if your leaders actively court idiots.

Yes that does explain what is going on in the US and Canada at the moment. Thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on January 16, 2019, 04:18:47 pm
Yes that does explain what is going on in the US and Canada at the moment. Thanks for the reminder.

I have never felt closer to right-of-centre people with a brain.  I feel like there are hordes waiting to bring us down...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on January 16, 2019, 04:19:16 pm
I'm actually becoming patriotic.  Maybe this is the last gasp of nationalism ?  Or was I wrong all along ? 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ?Impact on January 16, 2019, 05:05:41 pm
Well May survived the non-confidence vote. What is plan B?

1. Same as plan A
2. Beg Europe to extend the deadline
3. Referendum 2.0
4. Fall off the cliff
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 16, 2019, 07:24:29 pm
I'm actually becoming patriotic.  Maybe this is the last gasp of nationalism ?  Or was I wrong all along ?

You're an alt-right white supremacist colonialist.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Rue on January 16, 2019, 07:54:10 pm
Yeah I think that's what I would do. I never liked the whole concept of dismantling Europe anyway. Especially when you have Putin looking west licking his lips while having the current potus kissing his rosy red Russky arse.

I never did think of the EU as a threat to Russia, more so NATO, but you are right. Come to think of it maybe a strong EU is even more dangerous than NATO to Putin. That said Britain wanted out because of a reaction to its lack of control over immigration. So now what has happened. May's party turned on her. Why the betrayal. They knew exactly what they were getting with her when she ran. Why the flippity flop? I get the Scottish National Party, Liberals, Labour, even Northern Ireland's MP's of all parties being pro EU. That I get. However where are all those pro exit Tories now and why did they run?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on January 16, 2019, 08:37:49 pm
I never did think of the EU as a threat to Russia, more so NATO, but you are right. Come to think of it maybe a strong EU is even more dangerous than NATO to Putin. That said Britain wanted out because of a reaction to its lack of control over immigration. So now what has happened. May's party turned on her. Why the betrayal. They knew exactly what they were getting with her when she ran. Why the flippity flop? I get the Scottish National Party, Liberals, Labour, even Northern Ireland's MP's of all parties being pro EU. That I get. However where are all those pro exit Tories now and why did they run?

I think you have it back asswards, the threat is from Putin toward a weakened EU. Especially when you have Trump wanting to leave NATO, all the while cozying up to his murederous dictator buddy. Well, one of a few actually, but you can figure out which one I refer to here.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 16, 2019, 10:30:07 pm
I think you have it back asswards, the threat is from Putin toward a weakened EU. Especially when you have Trump wanting to leave NATO, all the while cozying up to his murederous dictator buddy. Well, one of a few actually, but you can figure out which one I refer to here.

They're threats to each other.  The EU is certainly a threat to Russia, as opposed to a less unified Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 24, 2019, 12:00:24 pm
I didn't read that she lost the vote in the House of Commons on Brexit. Wowee.

Think she's out and Jeremy Corbyn is in?

Can a no confidence vote trigger an election, even with the Fixed Term Parliaments Act? I thought you now need 2/3 to dissolve the Commons in the UK. I could be misinformed on that point.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on January 24, 2019, 09:02:01 pm
The Brits are screwed. Who knows if they could even get enough votes in Parliament to force another vote. Accelerating into the past when the country was known for the British Disease and called the Poor Man of Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JMT on January 24, 2019, 09:49:04 pm
Andrew Scheer liked Brexit before it was cool.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on March 13, 2019, 06:07:21 am

The last-minute last-ditch deal that they had in their pocket came out... and was voted down.  So we're now down to this:

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/4CCB/production/_105995691_brexit_flowchart_what_now_11mar_long_v1_640-nc.png)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2019, 10:43:33 am
How much you want to bet that these boneheads vote to reject a no deal Brexit then vote no to an extension?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2019, 02:55:00 pm
Just listening to BBC World. What an absolute gong show. Talk about Britain damaging its brand.They couldn’t have planned it better.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on March 15, 2019, 05:53:30 pm
So, Parliament voted against a no deal Brexit then voted for an extension. An extension has to be approved by all EU members. Poland has been the Brxiteers favourite whipping boy, what if it says FU, you ain’t getting one. There must be a lot of irritation over Britain’s dithering and it will be interesting to see how it manifests itself. Listening to a Deutsch Welle correspondent on BBC yesterday and she said Britain had generated a lot of anomositry in the rest of the EU and while future relations will likely be civil, they will no longer be friendly.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on March 15, 2019, 10:08:08 pm
So, Parliament voted against a no deal Brexit then voted for an extension. An extension has to be approved by all EU members. Poland has been the Brxiteers favourite whipping boy, what if it says FU, you ain’t getting one. There must be a lot of irritation over Britain’s dithering and it will be interesting to see how it manifests itself. Listening to a Deutsch Welle correspondent on BBC yesterday and she said Britain had generated a lot of anomositry in the rest of the EU and while future relations will likely be civil, they will no longer be friendly.

It's hard to imagine the same country that defiantly turned its back on the EU going back and asking for... anything.

I think I'm done with democracy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 15, 2019, 11:59:28 pm
It's hard to imagine the same country that defiantly turned its back on the EU going back and asking for... anything.

I think I'm done with democracy.

Well it might also be in the interest of the other EU members to negotiate trade deals etc. with Britain, instead of a no-deal Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on March 16, 2019, 12:04:05 am
The EU will give an extension.   The longer it goes on, the more likely another referendum is. The EU doesn’t want them to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2019, 12:19:37 am
Well it might also be in the interest of the other EU members to negotiate trade deals etc. with Britain, instead of a no-deal Brexit.

The onus is on Britain. The EU isn’t going to give them the perks of membership without being a member unless it is on their terms. Norway is not a member but abides by EU standards and freedom of movement in order to be part of the trading block. Two things the Brexiteers are against.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2019, 09:19:52 am
Britain will probably have to offer something other than the same thing in order to get an extension. An election or new referendum maybe. Why extend for more of the same old nonsense and uncertainty which is affecting business on both sides.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on July 23, 2019, 08:00:50 am
Boris Johnson is PM
 :P
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 23, 2019, 08:22:19 am
He has great hair.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on July 23, 2019, 08:44:58 am
He has great hair.

Too bad there isn’t much under it other than a giant ego. What could go wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on July 30, 2019, 12:42:53 am
Giant ego? How can a country be ruled with a man with only a giant eg----

Oh, right...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on October 09, 2019, 06:30:39 am
What's happening with Brexit these days? Is there a deadline or something?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 09, 2019, 07:02:32 am
What's happening with Brexit these days? Is there a deadline or something?

Lots happening, and yes.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on October 09, 2019, 07:14:44 am
“Leak fromm 10 Downing yesterday declared a new deal was virtually impossible”.

Britain votes to leave then Boris blames the EU for not letting him dictate the terms. Trump light.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on October 14, 2019, 09:49:19 pm
“Leak fromm 10 Downing yesterday declared a new deal was virtually impossible”.

Britain votes to leave then Boris blames the EU for not letting him dictate the terms. Trump light.

Could Boris end up the next casualty of Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on October 14, 2019, 10:02:00 pm
Could Boris end up the next casualty of Brexit?

No, he’ll be fine.   The average Brit will be the next victim of Brexit. 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on October 14, 2019, 10:37:05 pm
Could Boris end up the next casualty of Brexit?

He very well could.

The EU has told Boris Johnson he must move “further and faster” in last-ditch Brexit talks if he is to secure an exit deal and avoid having to ask for another extension next weekend.

Officials said intensive talks over the weekend had been “constructive” but that the pace of progress was not enough for a deal to be agreed this week.

Mr Johnson is desperate for an agreement to be signed off before Saturday to avoid him having to ask for further delay to Brexit.

But while EU sources said that a breakthrough during the prime minister’s talks with his Irish counterpart, Leo Varadkar, last week meant there was now “a deal to be done”, they urged Mr Johnson to make further concessions to secure an agreement.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-live-latest-today-brexit-queens-speech-time-deal-a9154686.html
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on October 20, 2019, 07:58:20 pm
The EU unanimously endorsed the latest Brexit deal.

British Parliament will vote on it tomorrow....  maybe?

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/boris-johnson-to-seek-a-new-vote-monday-on-his-brexit-deal-as-confusion-swirls-over-exit-delay
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on October 20, 2019, 08:01:04 pm
Didn't they vote yesterday to ask for a change ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 20, 2019, 08:11:51 pm
There are so many "shoulds" in the "deal", it looks more like a framework for a negotiation. That will take years to negotiate so what happens in the meantime?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JMT on October 28, 2019, 12:14:38 pm
Just give up on this stupid idea, already.  The referendum is non binding - treat it as such.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2019, 01:10:48 pm
Sorry John, the edit was because my post wound up in yours, I wasn't trying to change it'd.

Hold another one, make it binding and set a 60% threshold. If it passes, get on with it, if not, forget the idea.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on October 28, 2019, 01:41:10 pm
Super-majorities are undemocratic.

I also think referenda are stupid.

Don't hold a referendum, vote in Parliament like they were elected to do.  It's a political decision that needs to be done by elected politicians.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2019, 07:13:17 pm
Super-majorities are undemocratic.

I also think referenda are stupid.

Don't hold a referendum, vote in Parliament like they were elected to do.  It's a political decision that needs to be done by elected politicians.

I agree in principle but unfortunately they already had a referendum so I think another one to confirm or reverse it is the only real option.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 28, 2019, 07:52:33 pm
I agree in principle but unfortunately they already had a referendum so I think another one to confirm or reverse it is the only real option.

Yes they should hold a referendum on a referendum!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 29, 2019, 12:01:39 am
Yes they should hold a referendum on a referendum!

I’m saying they got themselves into this mess with a referendum so it is the best way out. To do otherwise just gives credibility to those who claim parliament is ignoring the will of the people. The referendum was the government’s idea.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on October 29, 2019, 08:42:58 am

Here's something that maybe others didn't notice... or maybe not ?

Was THIS MOST RECENT extension of Brexit, granted by EU, covered A LOT LESS than past Brexit milestones ?

I ask because I perceived it so, and I believe that to mean that the rest of us are actually not as interested in Brexit as we were.  And who can blame us ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 29, 2019, 10:01:57 am
I’m saying they got themselves into this mess with a referendum so it is the best way out. To do otherwise just gives credibility to those who claim parliament is ignoring the will of the people. The referendum was the government’s idea.

Well we've learned it's very complicated to get out of the EU, and even harder when the UK has minority governments & nobody agrees.

The EU is a single market, meaning trade and capital flows freely between EU members without restrictions, it also has its own currency.  EU citizens can also travel, immigrate, and work freely anywhere in the EU.   Getting out of that means Britain having to set up their own agreements with every EU country & that's very complex, and all the EU member countries have to agree with Britain's plans, and then UK minority parliament has to agree.

Are you saying because exit is very complex all EU members are trapped forever inside the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 29, 2019, 12:45:08 pm
Well we've learned it's very complicated to get out of the EU, and even harder when the UK has minority governments & nobody agrees.

The EU is a single market, meaning trade and capital flows freely between EU members without restrictions, it also has its own currency.  EU citizens can also travel, immigrate, and work freely anywhere in the EU.   Getting out of that means Britain having to set up their own agreements with every EU country & that's very complex, and all the EU member countries have to agree with Britain's plans, and then UK minority parliament has to agree.

Are you saying because exit is very complex all EU members are trapped forever inside the EU?

Nope
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 29, 2019, 01:12:15 pm
Nope

Maybe they should cry and run home to mommy because it's hard.

The British survived the Nazi war machine. They can survive some Parliamentary gridlock.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/c1VGFOAERgY/hqdefault.jpg)

 :P

Dumb x 5
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 29, 2019, 05:39:45 pm
Well we've learned it's very complicated to get out of the EU, and even harder when the UK has minority governments & nobody agrees.

The EU is a single market, meaning trade and capital flows freely between EU members without restrictions, it also has its own currency.  EU citizens can also travel, immigrate, and work freely anywhere in the EU.   Getting out of that means Britain having to set up their own agreements with every EU country & that's very complex, and all the EU member countries have to agree with Britain's plans, and then UK minority parliament has to agree.

Are you saying because exit is very complex all EU members are trapped forever inside the EU?

I think it is time for a sober second look now that they know it isn't going to be simple, the EU is not going to roll over and it will probably be far more expensive and disruptive to the economy than Brexit cheerleaders led them to believe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ?Impact on October 30, 2019, 03:29:35 pm
Getting out of that means Britain having to set up their own agreements with every EU country & that's very complex, and all the EU member countries have to agree with Britain's plans, and then UK minority parliament has to agree.

Yes, trade deals are complex, but not impossible. Canada negotiated on with the EU just a few years ago if you remember. The agreement is with the EU, not individual ones with ever country however.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on October 30, 2019, 08:04:04 pm
The UK already has free trade within the EU and agreements with over 60 countries as a member of the EU. If they crash out of the EU, they won't have a single agreement with anyone until they negotiate them.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on November 10, 2019, 11:37:06 am
The UK already has free trade within the EU and agreements with over 60 countries as a member of the EU. If they crash out of the EU, they won't have a single agreement with anyone until they negotiate them.

How likely is it that anybody would make such an agreement with the UK after it's left the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2019, 03:25:00 pm
How likely is it that anybody would make such an agreement with the UK after it's left the EU?

They will if they see it as in their interest.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on November 16, 2019, 07:26:42 am
Sounds like Britain is in a pickle to put it mildly. How exactly did they bungle it up this badly?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on November 16, 2019, 09:30:13 am
Sounds like Britain is in a pickle to put it mildly. How exactly did they bungle it up this badly?

The same way you elected Trump.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 16, 2019, 10:28:20 am
Sounds like Britain is in a pickle to put it mildly. How exactly did they bungle it up this badly?

Minority governments cause gridlock.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on November 16, 2019, 12:20:43 pm
The same way you elected Trump.

They do seem to demonstrate similar "leadership" capabilities.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on November 17, 2019, 01:24:36 pm
What would be interesting is if somehow a (stupid) no deal Brexit comes into existence, the official language of the EU should become Irish. Take that Boris! 
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2019, 12:35:52 am
I pity the poor bastards in the UK who elected Boris with a majority. I guess they'll now get to "enjoy" the Brexit bullshit full on now. Oh well, I as many others, will take holidays elsewhere I suspect.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2019, 01:16:33 am
So now we have Boris on one side of the Atlantic, Donald on the other side and stretching across to the Pacific, and then Fat Kimmy on the far side of the Pacific. We have the three stooges now firmly in place. We all know who Curly is, any suggestions as to Larry and Moe?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JBG on December 13, 2019, 02:52:43 am
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anything wrong with the UK not being beholden to "world opinion"?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2019, 02:32:32 pm
I pity the poor bastards in the UK who elected Boris with a majority. I guess they'll now get to "enjoy" the Brexit bullshit full on now. Oh well, I as many others, will take holidays elsewhere I suspect.

I'm looking forward to some cheap UK vacations when their economy tanks. Although there might not be a UK much longer.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2019, 02:51:40 pm
I'm looking forward to some cheap UK vacations when their economy tanks. Although there might not be a UK much longer.

I've been brushing up on my Spanish so I might just give Cuba a try. Haven't been there yet and it should be warmer than the UK. I do prefer Scotch to Rum but I'll adapt.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on December 26, 2019, 06:30:10 pm
Has the date for a deal already passed? Is the UK now in "no deal" territory?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on December 26, 2019, 07:18:37 pm
Has the date for a deal already passed? Is the UK now in "no deal" territory?

No - it's end of January now.  With the majority, BJ can do what he wants.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 26, 2019, 08:04:00 pm
I've been brushing up on my Spanish so I might just give Cuba a try. Haven't been there yet and it should be warmer than the UK. I do prefer Scotch to Rum but I'll adapt.
Kind of like the real thing. I'd go back to Spain in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 26, 2019, 08:07:41 pm
No - it's end of January now.  With the majority, BJ can do what he wants.

Britain will exit the EU at the end of January but the deadline for a deal will be the end of 2020. Boris can do anything he wants except dictate terms to the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: kimmy on December 28, 2019, 06:45:57 pm
After the initial Brexit referendum, a lot of people thought that it was a one-off mistake, that people had been deceived or that they voted out of anger or frustration, that once they had some time to look at what Brexit would really mean, they'd reconsider.

Brexit was the main focus of the election, and the Brexit Guy won by a landslide.   I think it's fair at this point to conclude that maybe the British people really do want Brexit.

But I have also read a lot of extremely negative things about the Labour Party in wake of the election.  This was the most crushing defeat for Labour in something like 80 years. Remember in the 2016 US election there was the talk about the Democrats' "Blue Wall" states, and how when some of those formerly safe states went for Trump, Clinton lost the election?  In the aftermath of the UK election, there has been a lot of talk about the Labour Party's "Red Wall" in the Midlands  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wall_(British_politics))collapsing. These are seats that had elected Labour MPs in every election for generations, but suddenly voted Tory in this election.  These were blue-collar seats with backgrounds in mining and manufacturing that lean heavily toward small-L labour, and until now had always voted big-L Labour as a result.  But now many small-L labour voters seem to question whether the Labour Party really represents them anymore. Just as some portion of the traditionally Democrat-supporting Rust Belt voters swung Republican in 2016.

Why did some US blue-collar Democrats swing to the Republicans in 2016? Why did many UK Midlands Labour voters swing to the Tories in 2019?

In the UK, a big factor appears to be Jeremy Corbyn.  From what I have been reading, Corbyn is less popular than mosquito bites, de-alcoholized beer, and Ebola. People can't stand him. People who hate Boris Johnson still voted for Boris Johnson because the idea of Corbyn becoming PM made them physically ill. Jeremy Corbyn himself appears to be a huge problem for the Labour Party. 

But some argue that it's not just Corbyn who is the problem, but Labour's current hard-left ideology and platform that make them unelectable. There seems to be some who feel that the party has been taken control of by ideologues who are committed to far-left ideas, and don't seem to particularly care whether they can actually get elected or not:

Example A: (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party)
Quote
Of course, this relates not just to Corbyn but Corbynism. For the last four years, Labour has been in thrall to the notion that it’s better to have a manifesto you can feel proud of, a programme that calls itself radical, than to devise one that might have a chance of winning. Some even argued that, “win or lose”, Corbyn achieved much simply by offering a genuinely socialist plan – in contrast with Labour’s 1997 offer, which was so boringly modest and incremental.
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Well, guess what. Labour’s “radical” manifesto of 2019 achieved precisely nothing. Not one proposal in it will be implemented, not one pound in it will be spent. It is worthless. And if judged not by the academic standard of “expanding the discourse”, but by the hard, practical measure of improving actual people’s actual lives, those hate figures of Corbynism – Tony Blair and Gordon Brown – achieved more in four hours than Corbyn achieved in four years. Why? Because they did what it took to win power.

That’s what a political party is for. It’s not a hobby; it’s not a pressure group that exists to open the Overton window a little wider; it’s not an association for making friends or hosting stimulating conversations and seminars; it’s not “a 30-year project”. Its purpose is to win and exercise power in the here and now. It is either a plausible vehicle for government or it is nothing.

Example B: (https://www.ft.com/content/c2de23d0-20b8-11ea-b8a1-584213ee7b2b)
Quote
That is the threat that faces the Labour party today. A party created to represent working people and unite their interests across the country is being rejected by the people it was made for.

And after four election defeats, with our support base eroded to its foundations in urban South Wales and major English cities, we must recognise before it’s too late that we’re not just losing market share, we’re now at risk of going bust.

Yet the current Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, not only fails to see this existential threat, he says we “won the argument” last Thursday and need just one more heave for the electorate to come to its senses.

Some in Labour seemed surprised by this response. Sadly, I am not and have always feared that for Mr Corbyn and his closest confidants winning power and the mundane business of governing to improve lives always come second to the higher purpose of “winning the argument”. For the community I represented in South Wales, and for millions of people across the UK, nothing could be further from the truth.
(...)
The choice now facing Labour is simple. We can recognise these truths and move swiftly on from Mr Corbyn and Corbynism, and put a credible investing and reforming agenda to the people next time. Or we can refuse to compromise with the electorate, select a new leader in Mr Corbyn’s image and consign our party to another defeat, maybe even extinction. To do so would be to deny Britain the option of a progressive, competent centre-left government that so many yearn for.

To what extent did Labour sabotage themselves by aligning themselves with political philosophies that are out-of-touch with the electorate, ideas that are too far out of the mainstream for even the traditional Labour voter?

Do the US Democrats risk doing the same to themselves in 2020?


 -k
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on December 28, 2019, 07:35:00 pm
There is no doubt Corbyn was hugely unpopular and you have to think Johnson won because of the quality of the opposition. Labour also lost hugely in Scotland. Mind you, the Conservatives didn't do much better. The future of the UK may depend on what kind of deal Britain gets with the EU. 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU, only 55% voted to remain in the UK.

Also, for the first time nationalist parties won a majority of seats in Northern Ireland. Boris could be the last prime minister of a UK.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 04, 2020, 10:02:53 pm
There is no doubt Corbyn was hugely unpopular and you have to think Johnson won because of the quality of the opposition. Labour also lost hugely in Scotland. Mind you, the Conservatives didn't do much better. The future of the UK may depend on what kind of deal Britain gets with the EU. 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU, only 55% voted to remain in the UK.

Also, for the first time nationalist parties won a majority of seats in Northern Ireland. Boris could be the last prime minister of a UK.

You mean there was nothing fresh on the menu to put it mildly.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on February 01, 2020, 08:01:35 am
I like how the fighting got 10X more coverage than the actual thing, when it happened.

So what's it going to be ?

Higher prices, sure...
Political turmoil, some of that probably...
Recession... maybe ?
Ruination ?  No.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: waldo on February 01, 2020, 08:27:13 am
So what's it going to be ?

Ruination ?  No.

Scotland... buh-bye! Northern Ireland... buh-bye! Wales... longer-term sentiments toward independence grow given Scotland/N.Ireland moves

ruination result: the United Kingdom is no longer... united. Good job Brexiteers!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on February 01, 2020, 09:11:54 am
It will be interesting. The UK is now without trade deals with any other countries and has till the end of the year to come up with an agreement with the EU. Something they have been trying to do for nearly four years with no success.

10% more Scots voted to remain in the EU then voted to remain in the UK. Boris has no moral grounds to deny them another referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on February 01, 2020, 10:19:51 am
Wales voted 52.5% pro Brexit. Wonder how they are feeling today.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on February 01, 2020, 11:11:38 am
Russia did a great job with this project.  They're working on Canada too, and the world via the UN.

Every reasonable Canadian should flood the Facebook pages, twitter accounts and so on calling out these liars.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 01, 2020, 12:43:24 pm
People wanting political sovereignty isn't a bad thing.  If Scots and Irish want to determine their own destiny then so be it, good for them.

It's a bit different with Quebec though, the Quebecois founded the country and are an inherent part of Canada historically and geographically.  But I still support them having a lot of sovereignty over their own affairs even within Canada.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on February 02, 2020, 10:21:58 am
I find it interesting that the Brits are the only EU country that feels it needs to leave in order to have an identity. Insecurity or arrogance?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: waldo on February 02, 2020, 12:43:27 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/murelVa.png)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on February 02, 2020, 04:48:26 pm
People wanting political sovereignty isn't a bad thing.  If Scots and Irish want to determine their own destiny then so be it, good for them.

It's a bit different with Quebec though, the Quebecois founded the country and are an inherent part of Canada historically and geographically.  But I still support them having a lot of sovereignty over their own affairs even within Canada.

You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth....   you support political sovereignty, just not for Quebec.  For Scotland it is fine though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 02, 2020, 05:34:21 pm
You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth....   you support political sovereignty, just not for Quebec.  For Scotland it is fine though.

You missed the part where I said I supported political sovereignty for Quebec.  That can be accomplished with them still being within Canada.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on February 02, 2020, 06:45:58 pm
You missed the part where I said I supported political sovereignty for Quebec.  That can be accomplished with them still being within Canada.

Or not...   you can say the same about any region.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: MH on June 30, 2020, 05:25:07 pm
Fun Brexit thread.

Brexiteers find out they have to sell their French home into which they were going to retire.  And they are PISSED... at the EU naturally...

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: the_squid on June 30, 2020, 05:32:15 pm
Fun Brexit thread.

Brexiteers find out they have to sell their French home into which they were going to retire.  And they are PISSED... at the EU naturally...

https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240

I read part of the thread...   I think the story was made up by this guy.  Seems too convenient.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wilber on July 28, 2020, 10:41:58 pm
Covid on top of Brexit. The Brits have shot themselves in the foot big time.