Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:13:55 pm

Title: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:13:55 pm
Did Donald Trump say something a bit off the wall today?  Probably.  This is the place.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:14:36 pm
In all honesty though, I think Trump could have done far worse when it came to picking a supreme court nominee.  It was the most normal thing he's done thus far.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 01, 2017, 09:36:54 pm
He's put Iran on notice, and told the Mexican president that he'll send in the troops to take care of their 'bad hombres'.   What does being put on notice mean, anyway?   I can't imagine a leader saying "oh, Trump has put me on notice.  Guess I better go sit in the corner". 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:38:19 pm
Iran isn't going to get a gold star on its report card.

In all honesty, that, combined with Bannon's place on the National Security Council should be very concerning.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:48:50 pm
Today, Trump hung up on the Prime Minister of Australia.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 01, 2017, 09:50:04 pm
He's making friends around the world, has apparently ripped the Australian PM a new one.   http://globalnews.ca/news/3221634/donald-trump-phone-call-australia/?sf54054445=1
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 01, 2017, 09:50:59 pm
Off the wall today?

He threatened to send troops into Mexico to deal with the "bad hombres." So much for political sovereignty.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
I'm more worried about bad omelettes when I'm in Mexico.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 01, 2017, 10:09:16 pm
Did he actually hang up on Australia's PM today?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 10:11:40 pm
Apparently so:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-02/donald-trump-shared-worst-call-with-malcolm-turnbull/8234904
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 01, 2017, 10:17:01 pm
Yep, Trump is unable to hold a civil conversation with a centre right PM from an ally nation.

12 days in and time to consider the 25th amendment. 

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2017, 11:24:38 pm
For those keeping score, I just saw a tweet - Donald Trump has in 12 days threatened action against 2 countries - Iran and Mexico.

They don't have to threaten to invade Australia.  Lucky for them, Obama left them 1500 (and growing) troops there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 01:52:34 am
Yep, Trump is unable to hold a civil conversation with a centre right PM from an ally nation.

12 days in and time to consider the 25th amendment. 

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

We both know that there is more to the story than trump blowing up and hanging up the phone.  What provoked him, what was Aussie pm's tone, etc. 

Then again part of me thinks it's trump making an example out of the Aussie pm to show adversaries whoever they may be that trump plays hardball.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 07:12:30 am
Apparently Trump was tired. 

That this got leaked from the White House (again) shows that Trump doesn't really engender a lot of loyalty.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 02, 2017, 08:41:43 am
When the aussie PM stood up to the American bully the bully acted like a child.

No surprise there.

The man is unfit to be President.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: poochy on February 02, 2017, 09:55:44 am
It's gonna be a long, hopefully less than 4 years.  I thought this guy was supposed to be less interested in playing world policeman, except in all of the same places they always have and now maybe in Mexico.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 01:14:37 pm
Today, Donald Trump decided that he can't wait 90 days to start NAFTA negotiations, as required by US law.  He can't even wait, in fact, for the US Trade Representative to be confirmed:

Quote
"I would like to speed it up if possible. You're the folks who can do it," Trump said during a meeting in the White House with a bipartisan group of politicians from the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-nafta-negotiations-1.3963544
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 01:42:06 pm
Today, Donald Trump decided that he can't wait 90 days to start NAFTA negotiations, as required by US law.  He can't even wait, in fact, for the US Trade Representative to be confirmed:

Quote
"I would like to speed it up if possible. You're the folks who can do it," Trump said during a meeting in the White House with a bipartisan group of politicians from the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-nafta-negotiations-1.3963544

Thank god I got rid of the cows years ago.  This is my issue with trump.  As much as I like his stance on pipelines, taxes, and saving money, I am not a fan of excessive micromanaging of an economy.  It has been proven that free trade makes societies richer and I'm happier that Mexico is richer as it's more customers with money for products.  What the American people fail to realize is that being anti trade is a bandaid solution as they are going to handcuff their economy by cutting out a lot of customers. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 01:44:00 pm
Today, Donald Trump decided that he can't wait 90 days to start NAFTA negotiations, as required by US law.  He can't even wait, in fact, for the US Trade Representative to be confirmed:

Quote
"I would like to speed it up if possible. You're the folks who can do it," Trump said during a meeting in the White House with a bipartisan group of politicians from the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-nafta-negotiations-1.3963544

Thank god I got rid of the cows years ago.  This is my issue with trump.  As much as I like his stance on pipelines, taxes, and saving money, I am not a fan of excessive micromanaging of an economy.  It has been proven that free trade makes societies richer and I'm happier that Mexico is richer as it's more customers with money for products.  What the American people fail to realize is that being anti trade is a bandaid solution as they are going to handcuff their economy by cutting out a lot of customers.

I was actually listening to the radio and the talk was about how much power Mexico actually has in these negotiations.  They can decided to make it so the capital and jobs can't just leave, just as easy as Trump can decide he wants them back.  They also have a lot of power over the fresh food supply moving north.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 02, 2017, 07:10:35 pm
Whether or not its particularly significant I am not sure, but there are an awful lot of memes making fun of Trump.   Haven't seen any other political figures so mocked on social media.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 07:33:38 pm
Whether or not its particularly significant I am not sure, but there are an awful lot of memes making fun of Trump.   Haven't seen any other political figures so mocked on social media.

GW bush presidency ended as social media became mainstream or he would have been hammered more
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 07:46:34 pm
There are a lot of Conservatives on my Facebook.  Trudeau gets it about as much as Trump on my feed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 08:09:57 pm
BTW, when Trump was talking to the Prime Minister of Australia, he spent much of his time bragging about his electoral college margin....
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 02, 2017, 10:18:33 pm
I give the Australian PM credit for his tact and diplomacy in answering questions about the call then.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 10:34:30 pm
I give the Australian PM credit for his tact and diplomacy in answering questions about the call then.

The Australian PM has a bit more leverage than other countries in dealing with the USA as they have a very strategic location and two very large customers for their products a short boy ride away.  So turnbull can get away with it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 03, 2017, 05:16:51 am
I'm not sure what you mean "get away with it." What I meant was that he showed a lot of restraint in talking about the situation. He could have gone to the media and just trashed Trump, but he chose his words carefully. He gave Trump a lot more respect than he probably deserved after that phone call.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2017, 07:37:55 am
Don't forget, there are US troops in Darwin - he's probably sacred Trump will threaten to invade him next.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 03, 2017, 11:51:41 am
I'm not sure what you mean "get away with it." What I meant was that he showed a lot of restraint in talking about the situation. He could have gone to the media and just trashed Trump, but he chose his words carefully. He gave Trump a lot more respect than he probably deserved after that phone call.

Getting away with getting under trump's skin to cause trump to have a blow.  Trump has a lot of political capital right now.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2017, 12:23:32 pm
Trump can't take a bit of criticism or contrary opinion without going off the rails. In less than two weeks since he jumped on his bully pulpit, he has managed to get two allies to give him the finger, together with a botched raid in Yemen that the former administration wouldn't approve and appointed an ambassador to the EU who has publicly declared he would like to see the EU to disappear. How long until Vlad is his only "friend" left. Trump may have political capital at home but he seems intent on alienating all those countries which have supported the US for decades.

Australia is the biggest western power in the region. It's military while not large compared to China and a few other countries in the region, is well equipped, capable and in the process of being made even more capable. Australia has just signed a defence agreement with Japan. Next to the US, Australia is the biggest contributor to the fight against ISIL and if the US goes head to head with China in the South China Sea, it will need Australia's support bigly.

Dumb ass Trump jeopardizes all that, for what?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2017, 01:38:23 pm
Well so far we have Kellyanne Conway with her "alternative facts", Trumps press secretary and some of his cabinet spouting outright lies, bans on immigration, and an Attorney General fired for for pointing out the illegality of an Exec. Order. What's next, 2+2 equals 5? Things look a little grim, unlesss of course you happen to own the copyright to 1984.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 03, 2017, 03:52:59 pm
Well so far we have Kellyanne Conway with her "alternative facts", Trumps press secretary and some of his cabinet spouting outright lies, bans on immigration, and an Attorney General fired for for pointing out the illegality of an Exec. Order. What's next, 2+2 equals 5? Things look a little grim, unlesss of course you happen to own the copyright to 1984.

The attorney general was fired for not enforcing the executive order.  There is consensus that she had to go.  Whether or not she was in the right is up for debate.

All press secretaries conjure up malarkey.  Trump is at war with the press and the press is dancing to his music.  If the press wants to beat trump, they have to pick their fights with him or they lose credibility.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2017, 04:04:31 pm
The attorney general was fired for not enforcing the executive order.  There is consensus that she had to go.  Whether or not she was in the right is up for debate.

I have to go with you here.  She should have just carried out the order, or resigned.  I was wrong when I said differently. 

It's also in fact true that her department was consulted before the EO was signed. 

Quote
All press secretaries conjure up malarkey.  Trump is at war with the press and the press is dancing to his music.  If the press wants to beat trump, they have to pick their fights with him or they lose credibility.

Not like the crowd thing.  He ruined any credibility there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 03, 2017, 05:21:56 pm
I have to go with you here.  She should have just carried out the order, or resigned.  I was wrong when I said differently. 

It's also in fact true that her department was consulted before the EO was signed. 

Not like the crowd thing.  He ruined any credibility there.

Everyone knows a lot of what comes out of trumps mouth is fluff and/or made up.  I think his game is to get the media to bite on his made up fluff and to big themselves down in it so he rams his policy thru.  He has had a very active first 14 days and by having the press be outraged at every little thing he does is take their credibility away.  The press should pick their fights.  Trump is at war with the media and his goal is to turn people off of them, part of that is to paint them as crying wolf.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2017, 10:23:23 pm
The attorney general was fired for not enforcing the executive order.  There is consensus that she had to go.  Whether or not she was in the right is up for debate.

All press secretaries conjure up malarkey.  Trump is at war with the press and the press is dancing to his music.  If the press wants to beat trump, they have to pick their fights with him or they lose credibility.

The AG was fired because she provided her learned opinion as to the lagality of the Muslim ban. That's her job. Wimpy boy just got his nose out of joint.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 04, 2017, 12:39:34 am
Except there was consensus that trump was fine to can her for not doing her job. 

She is free to act on her beliefs and trump is free to can her
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 04, 2017, 07:44:27 am
Except there was consensus that trump was fine to can her for not doing her job. 

She is free to act on her beliefs and trump is free to can her
She wasn't acting on her "beliefs" though. She was acting on her professional understanding of the law and upholding the constitution according to her oath of office.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2017, 09:30:24 am
CNN head warns Trump. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/19/cnns-president-has-fired-a-warning-shot-at-donald-trump/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na&utm_term=.9e1f5b5eaa45 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/19/cnns-president-has-fired-a-warning-shot-at-donald-trump/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na&utm_term=.9e1f5b5eaa45)

Wonder how this will play out. He has a point, when I was flying overseas the two networks you could always seem to count on in hotels were CNN and BBC World, not FOX. Neither are going to be intimidated by Trump.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 04, 2017, 11:05:10 am
The Obama years were extremely good for Fox News.

And if CNN becomes known as the news network that's not going to be intimidated by Trump, the Trump years will be very good for CNN.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 04, 2017, 11:13:56 am
Trump administration had a draft of an executive order to overturn Obama's protection for LGBT federal workers...  Ivanka Trump and her husband campaigned against it, leading to last week's White House statement that the protections will remain in place.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-lgbt-order-234617

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2017, 01:31:00 pm
So heading into week 2  we have a fired AG and now a federal judge putting a restraining order against a Trump EO. (travel plan) So the fight with the judicial branch seems to be simmering away, so I wonder how things are going over in Congress. Is this the start of 4 years of turmoil?

 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-idUSKBN15I1CM
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 04, 2017, 01:33:12 pm
CNN head warns Trump. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/19/cnns-president-has-fired-a-warning-shot-at-donald-trump/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na&utm_term=.9e1f5b5eaa45 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/19/cnns-president-has-fired-a-warning-shot-at-donald-trump/?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_2_na&utm_term=.9e1f5b5eaa45)

Wonder how this will play out. He has a point, when I was flying overseas the two networks you could always seem to count on in hotels were CNN and BBC World, not FOX. Neither are going to be intimidated by Trump.

Nobody will be intimidated by anyone.  Trump has pulled a fast one by getting the head of CNN to admit that if trump doesn't play nice there is to be biased coverage.  Now trump can yell fake news till he's blue in the face.  Given what streaming video online is doing to the tv industry there is no monopoly on news which is good as there are many people holding the whitehouse accountable and a lot of competition holding the press corps accountable.

The problem with too many talking heads is that there will never be a "free to choose" series which was fantastic. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2017, 01:59:44 pm
I think you give trump far too much credit.  I don't get any sense of organization of knowledge from this White House.  All I can see is chaos.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2017, 03:58:54 pm
Nobody will be intimidated by anyone.  Trump has pulled a fast one by getting the head of CNN to admit that if trump doesn't play nice there is to be biased coverage.  Now trump can yell fake news till he's blue in the face.  Given what streaming video online is doing to the tv industry there is no monopoly on news which is good as there are many people holding the whitehouse accountable and a lot of competition holding the press corps accountable.

The problem with too many talking heads is that there will never be a "free to choose" series which was fantastic.

One problem with Trump as he keeps putting out fake news (such his inauguration attendance #'s etc.) until he is, well, orange in the face. And there are those that buy it simply because he said it. And then when he does get caught out, he just says he didn't say it, and conjures up another illegal EO.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 04, 2017, 04:35:54 pm
I think you give trump far too much credit.  I don't get any sense of organization of knowledge from this White House.  All I can see is chaos.

Yea, every time one of his supporters says "It's a plan", I just shake my head.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2017, 05:00:46 pm
Nobody will be intimidated by anyone.  Trump has pulled a fast one by getting the head of CNN to admit that if trump doesn't play nice there is to be biased coverage.  Now trump can yell fake news till he's blue in the face.  Given what streaming video online is doing to the tv industry there is no monopoly on news which is good as there are many people holding the whitehouse accountable and a lot of competition holding the press corps accountable.

The problem with too many talking heads is that there will never be a "free to choose" series which was fantastic.

Yay, quote function works.

CNN International and BBC World Service are different animals from their domestic kin. If people see their reporting and it is backed up by their own and other media sources, Trump can scream fake all he wants but the rest of the world won't be buying it. They don't have to be biased, all they need are facts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 04, 2017, 05:11:01 pm
Yay, quote function works.

CNN International and BBC World Service are different animals from their domestic kin. If people see their reporting and it is backed up by their own and other media sources, Trump can scream fake all he wants but the rest of the world won't be buying it. They don't have to be biased, all they need are facts.

The problem being that trump simply doesn't care what foreigners have to say or think.  The USA has been playing nice for quite some time and a lot of people are in for a rude awakening.

Trump doesn't care if the things he puts out are fake.  If he keeps getting the media and the left to keep taking the bait, he makes the media and left look like people who aren't to be taken seriously. 

It's too bad that trump is such a meddler in the free market as otherwise it's nice to have the media and extreme leftisits start eating crow.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2017, 05:21:13 pm
The problem being that trump simply doesn't care what foreigners have to say or think.  The USA has been playing nice for quite some time and a lot of people are in for a rude awakening.

Trump doesn't care if the things he puts out are fake.  If he keeps getting the media and the left to keep taking the bait, he makes the media and left look like people who aren't to be taken seriously. 

It's too bad that trump is such a meddler in the free market as otherwise it's nice to have the media and extreme leftisits start eating crow.

If you live in a bubble and only watch FOX news, you would be quite correct. Trump may not care what the rest of the world thinks but the US is continually asking for support to legitimize its foreign adventures. Expect that support to dry up. His insulting the Australian PM is a good example. Australia has supported the US in every conflict since WW2, it had boots on the ground in Viet Nam and both Gulf wars. It still has troops in Afghanistan and is the US's biggest supporter against ISIL in the Middle East. What do they get but their head of government being trashed by Trump over a deal a US government made. "Make America Great" will become, "Make America Alone". All because of one single narcissist.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 04, 2017, 05:50:35 pm
If you live in a bubble and only watch FOX news, you would be quite correct. Trump may not care what the rest of the world thinks but the US is continually asking for support to legitimize its foreign adventures. Expect that support to dry up. His insulting the Australian PM is a good example. Australia has supported the US in every conflict since WW2, it had boots on the ground in Viet Nam and both Gulf wars. It still has troops in Afghanistan and is the US's biggest supporter against ISIL in the Middle East. What do they get but their head of government being trashed by Trump over a deal a US government made. "Make America Great" will become, "Make America Alone". All because of one single narcissist.

The last president was a narcissist too which makes trump replacing him all the more ironic.

Obama was also quite successful at pissing off his allies as well.  Obama didn't care and trump doesn't either.  Trump is wanting to show the American voters he is acting in their interests and not of foreign leaders.

The Americans wanted trump and they decided that they are willing to put up with his schtick if he gets their economy going.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2017, 07:38:30 pm
The last president was a narcissist too which makes trump replacing him all the more ironic.

Obama was also quite successful at pissing off his allies as well.  Obama didn't care and trump doesn't either.  Trump is wanting to show the American voters he is acting in their interests and not of foreign leaders.

The Americans wanted trump and they decided that they are willing to put up with his schtick if he gets their economy going.

A certain degree of narcissism is probably present in most leaders but comparing Obama to Trump as a narcissist is ridiculous. Name one box that Trump doesn't tick. The only thing I would question is bragging. There is nothing subtle about Trump's bragging.

Traits and signs of narcissism.


An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
Difficulty with empathy
Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
Haughty body language
Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
Pretending to be more important than they actually are
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
Denial of remorse and gratitude
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2017, 07:40:23 pm
It's all part of Trump's plan. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 04, 2017, 09:15:07 pm
The last president was a narcissist too which makes trump replacing him all the more ironic.

Obama was also quite successful at pissing off his allies as well.  Obama didn't care and trump doesn't either. 
That's like a terrible regurgitation of the "two equally terrible candidates" meme of the election. It was BS then too.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 04, 2017, 10:14:50 pm
That's like a terrible regurgitation of the "two equally terrible candidates" meme of the election. It was BS then too.

Lol that's not my problem the Americans are having trouble nominating candidates for president.  I was a walker and Rubio guy.

At least bill Clinton knew enough to work with congress.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 05, 2017, 10:56:44 am
Lol that's not my problem the Americans are having trouble nominating candidates for president.  I was a walker and Rubio guy.

At least bill Clinton knew enough to work with congress.
I wouldn't say they're having trouble. The people with the money and power are giving the peons a "choice" between their lapdogs. So they're not having trouble at all; it's the rest of America that's in trouble.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 05, 2017, 01:35:38 pm
David Axelrod wondering if the Churchill bust in the Oval office has demanded to be removed upon learning of Trump's likening US practices to Russian practices, has to be the tweet of the morning.

Nevermind this bizarro world where even the VP is unwilling to clearly state that the US is morally superior to Russia: https://twitter.com/ryanlizza/status/828293834253688832

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 05, 2017, 10:34:13 pm
The last president was a narcissist too which makes trump replacing him all the more ironic.

Obama was also quite successful at pissing off his allies as well.  Obama didn't care and trump doesn't either.  Trump is wanting to show the American voters he is acting in their interests and not of foreign leaders.

The Americans wanted trump and they decided that they are willing to put up with his schtick if he gets their economy going.

Obama couldn't hold a candle to Trump in terms of narcissism. Just ake a quick look back at the debates and you will see what I mean. And cozying up to Putin tends to counter your comment on foreign leaders. And tax cuts to the wealthy combined with huge spending plans, well, we'll see what effect that has on the economy. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 02:16:10 pm
Any bad polls are fake news.  Any good polls are obviously not fake news.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 06, 2017, 02:34:38 pm
Obama couldn't hold a candle to Trump in terms of narcissism. Just ake a quick look back at the debates and you will see what I mean. And cozying up to Putin tends to counter your comment on foreign leaders. And tax cuts to the wealthy combined with huge spending plans, well, we'll see what effect that has on the economy.

Obama is narcissistic as is trump.  Full stop.

Trump is promising tax cuts across the board and looking at Ireland tax cuts seem to be working.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2017, 02:45:07 pm
Some of you have probably seen this Mencken quote from 1920, so has the land finally reached its hearts desire?

Quote
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 06, 2017, 03:05:49 pm
Now the media are not reporting terrorist attacks for "their own reasons."

Yes, it has come to this: if they are not fortunate enough to have a terrorist attack occur so they can justify policy then they will lie about them (Bowling Green Massacre) or tell lies about the media suppressing them.

Wilber is right that the morons have won.

Maybe we should hope so because the next step would be to have a black ops terrorist attack since the real terrorists and media are not cooperating with the state thus far (well, Fox and Breitbart are playing ball).
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Peter F on February 06, 2017, 03:57:04 pm
Now the media are not reporting terrorist attacks for "their own reasons."

Yes, it has come to this: if they are not fortunate enough to have a terrorist attack occur so they can justify policy then they will lie about them (Bowling Green Massacre) or tell lies about the media suppressing them.

'''

It's awful convenient for the 'We're in great danger!' people.  Even if you never hear about terrorist attacks know that they are happening all the time anyways!   Apparently it is unconstitutional or something for the state mention all these terror attacks once the MSM decree's they shall not be reported.  Even courts can't mention them it seems. Why the terrorists are running rampant and the poor helpless President can't do a thing about all that terrorist-stuff happening right now.  He tried the feeble ExOrder that would stop terrorists from flowing in for 90/120 days - which did nothing for all the terroristing that we don't hear about anymore - and a mere judge pulled the rug out from under that! Powerful man, that Prez.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 06, 2017, 03:58:40 pm
Now the media are not reporting terrorist attacks for "their own reasons."

Did he actually say terrorist attacks, or is he referring to the behavior of certain European media, police and governments to downplay Muslim crime, esp sexual attacks on non-Muslims, lest it be seen as racist, or cause people to think less highly of multiculturalism?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 06, 2017, 04:09:39 pm
Let me google that for you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/02/06/president-trump-is-now-speculating-that-the-media-is-covering-up-terrorist-attacks/?utm_term=.8a069277da0b

There is even a video for all to see his lips move.

I would like to know which terrorist attacks have not been reported but it is far easier to claim some have not been reported than to demonstrate whoch have occurred and have been reported.

Perhaps that Bowling Green Massacre one Anne Conway keeps talking about to Cosmo Magazine and to TMZ?

You know that one, right? It's the one that never happened.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 06, 2017, 04:22:04 pm
Quote
Obama is narcissistic as is trump.

Really?  LOL

That comment actually made me laugh at my computer screen!   Your cognitive dissonance when it comes to Trump (or Obama) is hilarious!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 06, 2017, 09:29:16 pm
I'm saying they are both narcissistic. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2017, 09:41:10 pm
I'm saying they are both narcissistic.

I'd say one is a lot more so though, wouldn't you?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Peter F on February 06, 2017, 11:12:37 pm
Now the media are not reporting terrorist attacks for "their own reasons."

Yes, it has come to this: if they are not fortunate enough to have a terrorist attack occur so they can justify policy then they will lie about them (Bowling Green Massacre) or tell lies about the media suppressing them.

Wilber is right that the morons have won.

Maybe we should hope so because the next step would be to have a black ops terrorist attack since the real terrorists and media are not cooperating with the state thus far (well, Fox and Breitbart are playing ball).

and Here's the list of Under-reported terrorist attacks. Kindly provided by the white-house to NPR (amongst others)Here's the entire unedited list of 78 attacks from September 2014 to December 2016 provided by the White House:
[url]http://www.npr.org/2017/02/06/513777052/trump-says-media-fail-to-report-terrorist-attacks-white-house-promises-list/[url]
also Washington Post here: [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/02/06/here-are-the-78-terrorist-attacks-the-white-house-says-were-largely-under-reported/?utm_term=.76db65d70ec8/[url]

MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA
September, 2014
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Abdul Numan Haider

TIZI OUZOU, ALGERIA
September, 2014
TARGET: One French citizen beheaded
ATTACKER: Jund al-Khilafah in Algeria

QUEBEC, CANADA
October, 2014
TARGET: One soldier killed and one wounded in vehicle attack
ATTACKER: Martin Couture-Rouleau

OTTAWA, CANADA
October, 2014
TARGET: One soldier killed at war memorial; two wounded in shootings at Parliament building
ATTACKER: Michael Zehaf-Bibeau

NEW YORK CITY, NY, USA
October, 2014
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: US person
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA
November, 2014
TARGET: One Danish citizen wounded in shooting
ATTACKERS: Three Saudi Arabia-based ISIL members

ABU DHABI, UAE
DATE: December 2014
TARGET: One American killed in knife attack
ATTACKER: Dalal al-Hashimi

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA
December, 2014
TARGET: Two Australians killed in hostage taking and shooting
ATTACKER: Man Haron Monis

TOURS, FRANCE
December, 2014
TARGET: Three police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Bertrand Nzohabonayo

PARIS, FRANCE
January, 2015
TARGET: One police officer and four hostages killed in shooting at a kosher supermarket
ATTACKER: Amedy Coulibaly

TRIPOLI, LIBYA
January, 2015
TARGET: Ten killed, including one US citizen, and five wounded in bombing and shooting at a hotel frequented by westerners
ATTACKERS: As many as five ISIL-Libya members

RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA
January, 2015
TARGET: Two US citizens wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Saudi Arabia-based ISIL supporter

NICE, FRANCE
February, 2015
TARGET: Two French soldiers wounded in knife attack outside a Jewish community center
ATTACKER: Moussa Coulibaly

COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
February, 2015
TARGET: One civilian killed in shooting at a free-speech rally and one security guard killed outside the city's main synagogue
ATTACKER: Omar Abdel Hamid el-Hussein

TUNIS, TUNISIA
March, 2015
TARGET: 21 tourists killed, including 16 westerners, and 55 wounded in shooting at the Bardo Museum
ATTACKERS: Two ISIL-aligned extremists

KARACHI, PAKISTAN
April, 2015
TARGET: One US citizen wounded in knife attack
ATTACKERS: Pakistan-based ISIL supporters

PARIS, FRANCE
April, 2015
TARGET: Catholic churches targeted; one civilian killed in shooting, possibly during an attempted carjacking
ATTACKER: Sid Ahmed Ghlam

ZVORNIK, BOSNIA
April, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed and two wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Nerdin Ibric

GARLAND, TX, USA
May, 2015
TARGET: One security guard wounded in shooting at the Prophet Muhammad cartoon event
ATTACKERS: Two US persons

BOSTON, MA, USA
June, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; one police officer attacked with knife
ATTACKER: US person

EL GORA (AL JURAH), EGYPT
June, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; camp used by Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) troops attacked in shooting and bombing attack
ATTACKERS: Unknown number of ISIL-Sinai members

LUXOR, EGYPT
June, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed by suicide bomb near the Temple of Karnak
ATTACKER: Unidentified

SOUSSE, TUNISIA
June, 2015
TARGET: 38 killed and 39 wounded in shooting at a beach frequented by westerners
ATTACKERS: Seifeddine Rezgui and another unidentified attacker

LYON, FRANCE
June, 2015
TARGET: One civilian killed in beheading and explosion at a chemical plant
ATTACKER: Yasin Salhi

CAIRO, EGYPT
July, 2015
TARGET: One killed and nine wounded in VBIED attack at Italian Consulate
ATTACKER: Unidentified ISIL operatives
CAIRO, EGYPT
July, 2015
TARGET: One Croatian national kidnapped; beheaded on August 12 at an unknown location
ATTACKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operative

PARIS, FRANCE
August, 2015
TARGET: Two civilians and one US soldier wounded with firearms and knife on a passenger train
ATTACKER: Ayoub el-Khazzani

EL GORA, EGYPT
September, 2015
TARGET: Four US and two MFO troops wounded in IED attack
ATTACKER: Unidentified

DHAKA, BANGLADESH
September, 2015
TARGET: One Italian civilian killed in shooting
ATTACKER: Unidentified

COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
September, 2015
TARGET: One police officer wounded in knife attack
ATTAKER: Palestinian national

EL GORA, EGYPT
October, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; airfield used by MFO attacked with rockets
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operatives

PARRAMATTA, AUSTRALIA
October, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Farhad Jabar

RANGPUR, BANGLADESH
October, 2015
TARGET: One Japanese civilian killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Unidentified

HASANAH, EGYPT
October, 2015
TARGET: 224 killed in downing of a Russian airliner
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operatives
MERCED, CA, US
November, 2015
TARGET: Four wounded in knife attack on a college campus
ATTAKER: US person

PARIS, FRANCE
November, 2015
TARGET: At least 129 killed and approximately 400 wounded in series of shootings and IED attacks
ATTAKERS: Brahim Abdelslam, Saleh Abdeslam, Ismail Mostefai, Bilal Hadfi, Samy Amimour, Chakib Ahrouh, Foued Mohamed Aggad, and Abdelhamid Abaaoud

DINAJPUR, BANGLADESH
November, 2015
TARGET: One Italian citizen wounded in shooting
ATTAKER: Unidentified

RAJLOVAC, BOSNIA
December, 2015
TARGET: Two Bosnian soldiers killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Enes Omeragic

SAN BERNADINO, CA, US
December, 2015
TARGET: 14 killed and 21 wounded in coordinated firearms attack
ATTAKERS: Two US persons

LONDON, ENGLAND, UK
December, 2015
TARGET: Three wounded in knife attack at an underground rail station
ATTAKER: Muhyadin Mire

DERBENT, RUSSIA
December, 2015
TARGET: One killed and 11 wounded in shooting at UN World Heritage site
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Caucasus operative

CAIRO, EGYPT
January, 2016
TARGET: Two wounded in drive-by shooting outside a hotel frequented by tourists
ATTAKERS: Unidentified ISIL operatives

PARIS, FRANCE
January, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; attacker killed after attempted knife attack on Paris police station
ATTAKER: Tarek Belgacem

PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
January, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in shooting
ATTAKER: US person

HURGHADA, EGYPT
January, 2016
TARGET: One German and one Danish national wounded in knife attack at a tourist resort
ATTAKER: Unidentified

MARSEILLES, FRANCE
January, 2016
TARGET: One Jewish teacher wounded in machete attack
ATTAKER: 15 year-old Ethnic Kurd from Turkey

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
January, 2016
TARGET: 12 German tourists killed and 15 wounded in suicide bombing
ATTAKER: Nabil Fadli

JAKARTA, INDONESIA
January, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians killed and more than 20 wounded in coordinated bombing and firearms attacks near a police station and a Starbucks
ATTAKERS: Dian Joni Kurnaiadi, Muhammad Ali, Arif Sunakim, and Ahmad Muhazan bin Saron

COLUMBUS, OH, US
February, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians wounded in machete attack at a restaurant
ATTAKER: US person

HANOVER, GERMANY
February, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in knife attack
ATTAKER: Safia Schmitter

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
March, 2016
TARGET: Four killed and 36 wounded in suicide bombing in the tourist district
ATTAKER: Mehmet Ozturk

BRUSSELS, BELGIUM
March, 2016
TARGET: At least 31 killed and 270 wounded in coordinated bombings at Zaventem Airport and on a subway train
ATTAKERS: Khalid el-Bakraoui, Ibrahim el-Bakraoui, Najim Laachraoui, Mohammed Abrini, and Osama Krayem

ESSEN, GERMANY
April, 2016
TARGET: Three wounded in bombing at Sikh temple
ATTAKERS: Three identified minors

ORLANDO, FL, US
June, 2016
TARGET: 49 killed and 53 wounded in shooting at a nightclub
ATTAKER: US person

MAGNANVILLE, FRANCE
June, 2016
TARGET: One police officer and one civilian killed in knife attack
ATTAKER: Larossi Abballa

KABUL, AFGHANISTAN
June, 2016
TARGET: 14 killed in suicide attack on a bus carrying Canadian Embassy guards
ATTAKER: ISIL-Khorasan operative

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
June, 2016
TARGET: 45 killed and approximately 240 wounded at Ataturk International Airport
ATTACKERS: Rakhim Bulgarov, Vadim Osmanov, and an unidentified ISIL operative

DHAKA, BANGLADESH
July, 2016
TARGET: 22 killed, including one American and 50 wounded after hours-long siege using machetes and firearms at holy Artisan Bakery
ATTACKERS: Nibras Islam, Rohan Imtiaz, Meer Saameh Mubasheer, Khairul Islam Paye, and Shafiqul Islam Uzzal

NICE, FRANCE
July, 2016
TARGET: 84 civilians killed and 308 wounded by an individual who drove a truck into a crowd
ATTACKER: Mohamed Bouhlel

WURZBURG, GERMANY
July, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians wounded in axe attack on a train
ATTACKER: Riaz Khan Ahmadzai

ANSBACH, GERMANY
July, 2016
TARGET: At least 15 wounded in suicide bombing at a music festival
ATTACKER: Mohammad Daleel

NORMANDY, FRANCE
July, 2016
TARGET: One priest killed in knife attack
ATTACKERS: Adel Kermiche and Abdel Malik Nabil Petitjean

CHALEROI, BELGIUM
August, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in machete attack
ATTACKER: Khaled Babouri

QUEENSLAND, AUSTRALIA
August, 2016
TARGET: Two killed and one wounded in knife attack at a hostel frequented by Westerners
ATTACKER: Smail Ayad

COPENHAGEN, DENMAKR
September, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers and a civilian wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Mesa Hodzic

PARIS, FRANCE
September, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in raid after VBIED failed to detonate at Notre Dame Cathedral
ATTACKERS: Sarah Hervouet, Ines Madani, and Amel Sakaou

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA
September, 2016
TARGET: One civilian wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Ihsas Khan

CLOUD, MN, US
September, 2016
TARGET: 10 wounded in knife attack in a mall
ATTACKER: Dahir Ahmed Adan

NEW YORK, NY; SEASIDE PARK AND ELIZABETH, NJ, US
September, 2016
TARGET: 31 wounded in bombing in New York City; several explosive devices found in New York and New Jersey; one exploded without casualty at race in New Jersey; one police officer wounded in shootout
ATTACKER: Ahmad Khan Rahami

BRUSSELS, BELGIUM
October, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in stabbing
ATTACKER: Belgian national

KUWAIT CITY, KUWAIT
TARGET: No casualties; vehicle carrying three US soldiers hit by a truck
ATTACKER: Ibrahim Sulayman

MALMO, SWEDEN
October, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; mosque and community center attacked with Molotov cocktail
ATTACKER: Syrian national

HAMBURG, GERMANY
October, 2016
TARGET: One killed in knife attack
ATTACKER: Unknown

MANILA, PHILIPPINES
November, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; failed IED attempt near US Embassy
ATTACKERS: Philippine nationals aligned with the Maute group

COLUMBUS, OH, US
November, 2016
TARGET: 14 wounded by individuals who drove a vehicle into a group of pedestrians and attacked them with a knife
ATTACKER: US person

N'DJAMENA, CHAD
November, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; attacker arrested after opening fire at entrance of US Embassy
ATTACKER: Chadian national

KARAK, JORDAN
December, 2016
TARGET: 10 killed and 28 wounded in shooting at a tourist site
ATTACKERS: Several gunmen

BERLIN, GERMANY
December, 2016
TARGET: 12 killed and 48 wounded by individual who drove truck into a crowded market
ATTACKER: Anis Amri
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Peter F on February 06, 2017, 11:13:59 pm
Holy Moly! These guys in the Whitehouse are absolutely Loopy!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 07, 2017, 12:23:54 am
I'm saying they are both narcissistic.

Obama was the first black dude to hold the highest office in the US, and he was far from narcissistic as one can get. Trump is probably the most narcissistic I can recall. Who but a narcissist would plant a raccoon on top of their head and then paint their skin orange, before talking about how cool it is to grab womens genitals? But there are dolts who buy this shyte.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 07, 2017, 12:41:27 am
Obama was the first black dude to hold the highest office in the US, and he was far from narcissistic as one can get. Trump is probably the most narcissistic I can recall. Who but a narcissist would plant a raccoon on top of their head and then paint their skin orange, before talking about how cool it is to grab womens genitals? But there are dolts who buy this shyte.

So because obama is black he gets a pass on narcissm?  Nobody is saying trump is not narcissistic.  I agree trump is narcissistic, however so is obama which makes it poetic justice that he got replaced by someone like Donald trump even though Rubio/walker would have been better.

You can google obama is narcissistic and find multiple articles.  If there's smoke there's fire...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 07, 2017, 08:07:49 am
You can google obama is narcissistic and find multiple articles.  If there's smoke there's fire...
I can Google "Elvis Lives" or "Sasquatch Sighted" and get a bunch of articles too.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 07, 2017, 12:32:29 pm

PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
January, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in shooting
ATTAKER: US person

HURGHADA, EGYPT
January, 2016
TARGET: One German and one Danish national wounded in knife attack at a tourist resort
ATTAKER: Unidentified

MARSEILLES, FRANCE
January, 2016
TARGET: One Jewish teacher wounded in machete attack
ATTAKER: 15 year-old Ethnic Kurd from Turkey

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
January, 2016
TARGET: 12 German tourists killed and 15 wounded in suicide bombing
ATTAKER: Nabil Fadli

JAKARTA, INDONESIA
January, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians killed and more than 20 wounded in coordinated bombing and firearms attacks near a police station and a Starbucks
ATTAKERS: Dian Joni Kurnaiadi, Muhammad Ali, Arif Sunakim, and Ahmad Muhazan bin Saron
That's not how you spell attacker.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2017, 04:27:45 pm
and Here's the list of Under-reported terrorist attacks. Kindly provided by the white-house to NPR (amongst others)Here's the entire unedited list of 78 attacks from September 2014 to December 2016 provided by the White House:
[url]http://www.npr.org/2017/02/06/513777052/trump-says-media-fail-to-report-terrorist-attacks-white-house-promises-list/[url]
also Washington Post here: [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/02/06/here-are-the-78-terrorist-attacks-the-white-house-says-were-largely-under-reported/?utm_term=.76db65d70ec8/[url]

MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA
September, 2014
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Abdul Numan Haider

TIZI OUZOU, ALGERIA
September, 2014
TARGET: One French citizen beheaded
ATTACKER: Jund al-Khilafah in Algeria

QUEBEC, CANADA
October, 2014
TARGET: One soldier killed and one wounded in vehicle attack
ATTACKER: Martin Couture-Rouleau

OTTAWA, CANADA
October, 2014
TARGET: One soldier killed at war memorial; two wounded in shootings at Parliament building
ATTACKER: Michael Zehaf-Bibeau

NEW YORK CITY, NY, USA
October, 2014
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: US person
RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA
November, 2014
TARGET: One Danish citizen wounded in shooting
ATTACKERS: Three Saudi Arabia-based ISIL members

ABU DHABI, UAE
DATE: December 2014
TARGET: One American killed in knife attack
ATTACKER: Dalal al-Hashimi

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA
December, 2014
TARGET: Two Australians killed in hostage taking and shooting
ATTACKER: Man Haron Monis

TOURS, FRANCE
December, 2014
TARGET: Three police officers wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Bertrand Nzohabonayo

PARIS, FRANCE
January, 2015
TARGET: One police officer and four hostages killed in shooting at a kosher supermarket
ATTACKER: Amedy Coulibaly

TRIPOLI, LIBYA
January, 2015
TARGET: Ten killed, including one US citizen, and five wounded in bombing and shooting at a hotel frequented by westerners
ATTACKERS: As many as five ISIL-Libya members

RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA
January, 2015
TARGET: Two US citizens wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Saudi Arabia-based ISIL supporter

NICE, FRANCE
February, 2015
TARGET: Two French soldiers wounded in knife attack outside a Jewish community center
ATTACKER: Moussa Coulibaly

COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
February, 2015
TARGET: One civilian killed in shooting at a free-speech rally and one security guard killed outside the city's main synagogue
ATTACKER: Omar Abdel Hamid el-Hussein

TUNIS, TUNISIA
March, 2015
TARGET: 21 tourists killed, including 16 westerners, and 55 wounded in shooting at the Bardo Museum
ATTACKERS: Two ISIL-aligned extremists

KARACHI, PAKISTAN
April, 2015
TARGET: One US citizen wounded in knife attack
ATTACKERS: Pakistan-based ISIL supporters

PARIS, FRANCE
April, 2015
TARGET: Catholic churches targeted; one civilian killed in shooting, possibly during an attempted carjacking
ATTACKER: Sid Ahmed Ghlam

ZVORNIK, BOSNIA
April, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed and two wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Nerdin Ibric

GARLAND, TX, USA
May, 2015
TARGET: One security guard wounded in shooting at the Prophet Muhammad cartoon event
ATTACKERS: Two US persons

BOSTON, MA, USA
June, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; one police officer attacked with knife
ATTACKER: US person

EL GORA (AL JURAH), EGYPT
June, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; camp used by Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) troops attacked in shooting and bombing attack
ATTACKERS: Unknown number of ISIL-Sinai members

LUXOR, EGYPT
June, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed by suicide bomb near the Temple of Karnak
ATTACKER: Unidentified

SOUSSE, TUNISIA
June, 2015
TARGET: 38 killed and 39 wounded in shooting at a beach frequented by westerners
ATTACKERS: Seifeddine Rezgui and another unidentified attacker

LYON, FRANCE
June, 2015
TARGET: One civilian killed in beheading and explosion at a chemical plant
ATTACKER: Yasin Salhi

CAIRO, EGYPT
July, 2015
TARGET: One killed and nine wounded in VBIED attack at Italian Consulate
ATTACKER: Unidentified ISIL operatives
CAIRO, EGYPT
July, 2015
TARGET: One Croatian national kidnapped; beheaded on August 12 at an unknown location
ATTACKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operative

PARIS, FRANCE
August, 2015
TARGET: Two civilians and one US soldier wounded with firearms and knife on a passenger train
ATTACKER: Ayoub el-Khazzani

EL GORA, EGYPT
September, 2015
TARGET: Four US and two MFO troops wounded in IED attack
ATTACKER: Unidentified

DHAKA, BANGLADESH
September, 2015
TARGET: One Italian civilian killed in shooting
ATTACKER: Unidentified

COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
September, 2015
TARGET: One police officer wounded in knife attack
ATTAKER: Palestinian national

EL GORA, EGYPT
October, 2015
TARGET: No casualties; airfield used by MFO attacked with rockets
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operatives

PARRAMATTA, AUSTRALIA
October, 2015
TARGET: One police officer killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Farhad Jabar

RANGPUR, BANGLADESH
October, 2015
TARGET: One Japanese civilian killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Unidentified

HASANAH, EGYPT
October, 2015
TARGET: 224 killed in downing of a Russian airliner
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Sinai operatives
MERCED, CA, US
November, 2015
TARGET: Four wounded in knife attack on a college campus
ATTAKER: US person

PARIS, FRANCE
November, 2015
TARGET: At least 129 killed and approximately 400 wounded in series of shootings and IED attacks
ATTAKERS: Brahim Abdelslam, Saleh Abdeslam, Ismail Mostefai, Bilal Hadfi, Samy Amimour, Chakib Ahrouh, Foued Mohamed Aggad, and Abdelhamid Abaaoud

DINAJPUR, BANGLADESH
November, 2015
TARGET: One Italian citizen wounded in shooting
ATTAKER: Unidentified

RAJLOVAC, BOSNIA
December, 2015
TARGET: Two Bosnian soldiers killed in shooting
ATTAKER: Enes Omeragic

SAN BERNADINO, CA, US
December, 2015
TARGET: 14 killed and 21 wounded in coordinated firearms attack
ATTAKERS: Two US persons

LONDON, ENGLAND, UK
December, 2015
TARGET: Three wounded in knife attack at an underground rail station
ATTAKER: Muhyadin Mire

DERBENT, RUSSIA
December, 2015
TARGET: One killed and 11 wounded in shooting at UN World Heritage site
ATTAKER: Unidentified ISIL-Caucasus operative

CAIRO, EGYPT
January, 2016
TARGET: Two wounded in drive-by shooting outside a hotel frequented by tourists
ATTAKERS: Unidentified ISIL operatives

PARIS, FRANCE
January, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; attacker killed after attempted knife attack on Paris police station
ATTAKER: Tarek Belgacem

PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA
January, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in shooting
ATTAKER: US person

HURGHADA, EGYPT
January, 2016
TARGET: One German and one Danish national wounded in knife attack at a tourist resort
ATTAKER: Unidentified

MARSEILLES, FRANCE
January, 2016
TARGET: One Jewish teacher wounded in machete attack
ATTAKER: 15 year-old Ethnic Kurd from Turkey

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
January, 2016
TARGET: 12 German tourists killed and 15 wounded in suicide bombing
ATTAKER: Nabil Fadli

JAKARTA, INDONESIA
January, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians killed and more than 20 wounded in coordinated bombing and firearms attacks near a police station and a Starbucks
ATTAKERS: Dian Joni Kurnaiadi, Muhammad Ali, Arif Sunakim, and Ahmad Muhazan bin Saron

COLUMBUS, OH, US
February, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians wounded in machete attack at a restaurant
ATTAKER: US person

HANOVER, GERMANY
February, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in knife attack
ATTAKER: Safia Schmitter

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
March, 2016
TARGET: Four killed and 36 wounded in suicide bombing in the tourist district
ATTAKER: Mehmet Ozturk

BRUSSELS, BELGIUM
March, 2016
TARGET: At least 31 killed and 270 wounded in coordinated bombings at Zaventem Airport and on a subway train
ATTAKERS: Khalid el-Bakraoui, Ibrahim el-Bakraoui, Najim Laachraoui, Mohammed Abrini, and Osama Krayem

ESSEN, GERMANY
April, 2016
TARGET: Three wounded in bombing at Sikh temple
ATTAKERS: Three identified minors

ORLANDO, FL, US
June, 2016
TARGET: 49 killed and 53 wounded in shooting at a nightclub
ATTAKER: US person

MAGNANVILLE, FRANCE
June, 2016
TARGET: One police officer and one civilian killed in knife attack
ATTAKER: Larossi Abballa

KABUL, AFGHANISTAN
June, 2016
TARGET: 14 killed in suicide attack on a bus carrying Canadian Embassy guards
ATTAKER: ISIL-Khorasan operative

ISTANBUL, TURKEY
June, 2016
TARGET: 45 killed and approximately 240 wounded at Ataturk International Airport
ATTACKERS: Rakhim Bulgarov, Vadim Osmanov, and an unidentified ISIL operative

DHAKA, BANGLADESH
July, 2016
TARGET: 22 killed, including one American and 50 wounded after hours-long siege using machetes and firearms at holy Artisan Bakery
ATTACKERS: Nibras Islam, Rohan Imtiaz, Meer Saameh Mubasheer, Khairul Islam Paye, and Shafiqul Islam Uzzal

NICE, FRANCE
July, 2016
TARGET: 84 civilians killed and 308 wounded by an individual who drove a truck into a crowd
ATTACKER: Mohamed Bouhlel

WURZBURG, GERMANY
July, 2016
TARGET: Four civilians wounded in axe attack on a train
ATTACKER: Riaz Khan Ahmadzai

ANSBACH, GERMANY
July, 2016
TARGET: At least 15 wounded in suicide bombing at a music festival
ATTACKER: Mohammad Daleel

NORMANDY, FRANCE
July, 2016
TARGET: One priest killed in knife attack
ATTACKERS: Adel Kermiche and Abdel Malik Nabil Petitjean

CHALEROI, BELGIUM
August, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in machete attack
ATTACKER: Khaled Babouri

QUEENSLAND, AUSTRALIA
August, 2016
TARGET: Two killed and one wounded in knife attack at a hostel frequented by Westerners
ATTACKER: Smail Ayad

COPENHAGEN, DENMAKR
September, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers and a civilian wounded in shooting
ATTACKER: Mesa Hodzic

PARIS, FRANCE
September, 2016
TARGET: One police officer wounded in raid after VBIED failed to detonate at Notre Dame Cathedral
ATTACKERS: Sarah Hervouet, Ines Madani, and Amel Sakaou

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA
September, 2016
TARGET: One civilian wounded in knife attack
ATTACKER: Ihsas Khan

CLOUD, MN, US
September, 2016
TARGET: 10 wounded in knife attack in a mall
ATTACKER: Dahir Ahmed Adan

NEW YORK, NY; SEASIDE PARK AND ELIZABETH, NJ, US
September, 2016
TARGET: 31 wounded in bombing in New York City; several explosive devices found in New York and New Jersey; one exploded without casualty at race in New Jersey; one police officer wounded in shootout
ATTACKER: Ahmad Khan Rahami

BRUSSELS, BELGIUM
October, 2016
TARGET: Two police officers wounded in stabbing
ATTACKER: Belgian national

KUWAIT CITY, KUWAIT
TARGET: No casualties; vehicle carrying three US soldiers hit by a truck
ATTACKER: Ibrahim Sulayman

MALMO, SWEDEN
October, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; mosque and community center attacked with Molotov cocktail
ATTACKER: Syrian national

HAMBURG, GERMANY
October, 2016
TARGET: One killed in knife attack
ATTACKER: Unknown

MANILA, PHILIPPINES
November, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; failed IED attempt near US Embassy
ATTACKERS: Philippine nationals aligned with the Maute group

COLUMBUS, OH, US
November, 2016
TARGET: 14 wounded by individuals who drove a vehicle into a group of pedestrians and attacked them with a knife
ATTACKER: US person

N'DJAMENA, CHAD
November, 2016
TARGET: No casualties; attacker arrested after opening fire at entrance of US Embassy
ATTACKER: Chadian national

KARAK, JORDAN
December, 2016
TARGET: 10 killed and 28 wounded in shooting at a tourist site
ATTACKERS: Several gunmen

BERLIN, GERMANY
December, 2016
TARGET: 12 killed and 48 wounded by individual who drove truck into a crowded market
ATTACKER: Anis Amri

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/02/07/usa-today-white-house-donald-trump-terrorist-attacks/97584176/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 07, 2017, 06:18:35 pm
The media have been covering up that murder is at a 47 year high in the United States!

Damn MSM! They can't be trusted!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 07, 2017, 07:13:13 pm
Damn MSM! They can't be trusted!

FBI neither, since that is based on their UCR data.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 07, 2017, 11:02:47 pm
Trump complains about the media not talking about terrorist attacks...

Meanwhile, no mention from the WH about the terrorist attack at a mosque in Quebec. 

Guess Trump doesn't want to gloat and take credit for inspiring the attack?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on February 07, 2017, 11:40:43 pm
So because obama is black he gets a pass on narcissm?  Nobody is saying trump is not narcissistic.  I agree trump is narcissistic, however so is obama which makes it poetic justice that he got replaced by someone like Donald trump even though Rubio/walker would have been better.

You can google obama is narcissistic and find multiple articles.  If there's smoke there's fire...

You make a claim and 'google it' is your argument?  How about you explain it to us.

Here's an example - Trump is a narcissist because...

He creates one monstrosity after another and immortalizes them with his name.  He has created his palace in the sky with everything gold plated and in the style of a dead gluttonous french King.  He believes the rules don't apply to him, and he doesn't have to release taxes or pay attention to other branches of government.  He is obsessed with his image and agonizes over what SNL says about him.  He has referred to himself in the third person. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 08, 2017, 12:27:20 am
Meanwhile, no mention from the WH about the terrorist attack at a mosque in Quebec. 

Guess Trump doesn't want to gloat and take credit for inspiring the attack?

Sorry BC_cheque but the above is proof that Trump is not a narcissist.  ;D
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 08, 2017, 09:35:29 am
The media have been covering up that murder is at a 47 year high in the United States!

Damn MSM! They can't be trusted!

This goes back to Newt Gingrich's "feelings vs facts" thing.  The irony is Trump claiming that the media is trying to cover up violent crime, when the primary reason that people feel less safe is heavy media coverage of violent crime.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhJWusyj4I

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 08, 2017, 03:33:42 pm
If Donald Trump tweets in the woods, and no one listens, does it really matter?

Investors didn't have much of a reaction to the U.S. president's latest Twitter tirade on Wednesday, as shares in retailer Nordstrom, which Donald Trump accused of treating his daughter unfairly, barely budged.

"My daughter Ivanka has been treated so unfairly by @Nordstrom. She is a great person — always pushing me to do the right thing! Terrible," Trump said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nordstrom-trump-tweet-1.3972337
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 08, 2017, 03:39:25 pm
If Donald Trump tweets in the woods, and no one listens, does it really matter?

Investors didn't have much of a reaction to the U.S. president's latest Twitter tirade on Wednesday, as shares in retailer Nordstrom, which Donald Trump accused of treating his daughter unfairly, barely budged.

"My daughter Ivanka has been treated so unfairly by @Nordstrom. She is a great person — always pushing me to do the right thing! Terrible," Trump said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nordstrom-trump-tweet-1.3972337

Nordstrom is a  high end retailer. I would wager most of Trump's ardent followers have barely heard of the place, and certainly don't shop there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 08, 2017, 03:51:41 pm
A tweet like that would heave really unsettled the markets two weeks ago.  Today, no one really cares.  We've already come to that point.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 08, 2017, 05:19:37 pm
Nordstrom is a  high end retailer. I would wager most of Trump's ardent followers have barely heard of the place, and certainly don't shop there.

Nordstorm? Isn`t that the French Canadian company that makes a sou'wester?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 08, 2017, 05:23:31 pm
Today Donald Trump's pick for the SCOTUS spoke out against his attack on the 9th circuit judge that ruled against his ban:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/318573-trump-scotus-pick-called-the-presidents-attack-on-judiciary
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2017, 05:26:17 pm
Trump bashes Nordstrom on Twitter, stock jumps 2%.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 09, 2017, 12:19:11 pm
Trump's surrogates continue to make up fake terrorist attacks to justify their twisted ideology.

http://www.newsy.com/stories/spicer-cites-attack-by-foreign-nationals-that-didn-t-happen/?utm_content=inf_11_3490_2&utm_source=whm_fb&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=influencers&tse_id=INF_0c866b80eeeb11e6a03c354c456e1db2
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2017, 01:19:31 pm
No longer good enough to just ignore attacks by white supremacists, now they are blaming them on someone else.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 09, 2017, 05:35:31 pm
You make a claim and 'google it' is your argument?  How about you explain it to us.

Here's an example - Trump is a narcissist because...

He creates one monstrosity after another and immortalizes them with his name.  He has created his palace in the sky with everything gold plated and in the style of a dead gluttonous french King.  He believes the rules don't apply to him, and he doesn't have to release taxes or pay attention to other branches of government.  He is obsessed with his image and agonizes over what SNL says about him.  He has referred to himself in the third person.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12724/press-concerned-trump-insecure-narcissist-here-are-aaron-bandler

A case for narcissism
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on February 10, 2017, 03:51:53 pm
A link is no better than 'google it'.

Can't you form your own arguments?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 10, 2017, 03:59:15 pm
A link is no better than 'google it'.

Can't you form your own arguments?

I was saying that a google search showed multiple hits of how obama can be a narcissist, then I showed a link with a page with points showing how they think obama is a narcissist.  Like I said if there's smoke there's fire. I also said trump is a narcissist as well.  With a number of articles articulating why obama is a narcissist I can reasonably suggest that obama is in fact a narcissist as is trump.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 10, 2017, 08:32:02 pm
Now Putin is offering up Snowden to distract from the fact that Flynn is as traitorous as Trump: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/official-flynn-sanctions-talk-russia-45400179

And : https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/10/nbc-russia-considers-sending-snowden-back-to-us/

But, um, yeah, keep discussing who the bigger narcissist is....  ;D  ::)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 10, 2017, 10:34:05 pm
Now Putin is offering up Snowden to distract from the fact that Flynn is as traitorous as Trump: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/official-flynn-sanctions-talk-russia-45400179

And : https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/10/nbc-russia-considers-sending-snowden-back-to-us/

But, um, yeah, keep discussing who the bigger narcissist is....  ;D  ::)

The more the left keeps crying wolf, the less voters take them seriously...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 12:32:04 am
 A majority of Americans are smart (smrt!) enough to know that the world is laughing at them:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/203834/americans-world-standing-worst-decade.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

29% of Americans think world leaders respect Trump. ( Hint: no, world leaders think he is a jack ass).
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 01:18:17 am
Tonight Imwas reminded that Trump would like to put an American company (Nordstrom) out of business because they won't peddle his daughters clothes which are made in China. 

No wonder the world is laughing. Whatta Joke!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 11, 2017, 03:17:26 am
https://www.google.ca/amp/thehill.com/homenews/media/318514-trump-admin-seen-as-more-truthful-than-news-media-poll%3Famp?client=safari

😬  You know it's bad when trump is more trusted than the media...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 11, 2017, 03:20:32 am
A majority of Americans are smart (smrt!) enough to know that the world is laughing at them:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/203834/americans-world-standing-worst-decade.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=morelink&utm_campaign=syndication

29% of Americans think world leaders respect Trump. ( Hint: no, world leaders think he is a jack ass).

Yet Shinzo Abe has been to the USA twice to cement relations with trump.  Doesn't seem like Abe is wanting to get on his bad side.  America doesn't have to be liked, obama tried that and it was a disaster.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 11, 2017, 05:02:24 am
Trump thinks he knows more about everything than everybody and keeps presenting flat-out false information to support his claims of greatness.  But, Obama said "I" a lot in his speeches. So, they're both narcissists... one's the same as the other.

This is a textbook example of false equivalency.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 08:52:17 am
Yet Shinzo Abe has been to the USA twice to cement relations with trump.  Doesn't seem like Abe is wanting to get on his bad side.  America doesn't have to be liked, obama tried that and it was a disaster.

It is not about being liked. It is about being respected. One can be loved and respected or feared and respected.

Trump is mocked and not respected because he is a joke.

Lets hope that he doesn't turn people's views of the US into assuming: joke Prez, joke country.

Because when that happens is when you will see wars and other significant challenges to American hegemony and I would prefer that to not happen in my lifetime.

At least Trump was wise enough to come back to the "one China" policy after his earlier gaffe with Taiwan.

Xi put him in his place, probably gently like Sun Tzu would have taught him to.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 08:55:04 am
Trump thinks he knows more about everything than everybody...
 -k

This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 11, 2017, 09:18:07 am
The more the left keeps crying wolf, the less voters take them seriously...
You just said that where there's smoke there's fire. How about where there is a corroborated dossier?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 09:21:42 am
Think this sums up Trump so far:

 
https://mobile.twitter.com/IvanTheK/status/830406704923869184/photo/1


Except one could exchange Trump's quote with so many others: Grab women by the pussy....


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 10:44:16 am
This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect: The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is.
This effect has a lot more to it than that. You don't have to be low ability in general, it just means not having the necessary skills for a particular task or position. The added problem with DKE is that these individuals don't seek out new knowledge or ways to improve because they think to themselves, "I've got this" when really they don't. Confirmation bias then comes into play; they'll only look at things that confirm their ability and dismiss anything that suggests they're struggling or incapable.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 11, 2017, 12:53:01 pm
You just said that where there's smoke there's fire. How about where there is a corroborated dossier?

There's a difference between smoke and crying wolf all the time.  The media has a 39% believability vs 49% for trump. 

Are people talking about the dossier now?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 11, 2017, 12:56:44 pm
There's a difference between smoke and crying wolf all the time.  The media has a 39% believability vs 49% for trump. 

Are people talking about the dossier now?
That says more about the survey respondents themselves than the media.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 11, 2017, 05:29:51 pm
I have stated on another forum that if Trump was elected then I would enjoy certain things about his election.

The SNL comedy, for example.

Watching people freak out as they discover "Obama care" is really ACA is another.  And, no, I don't feel bad for people losing healthcare to the extent that if they voted for Trump then too bad, so very very sad.

Abortion rights and planned parenthood - same thing. I support a woman's right to choose (up to 9 months for all I care) but, again, if you're a woman who couldn't understand that Trump and Clinton were not morally equivalent then too bad, so sad.

Here we see rural areas that may get screwed over from Trump: http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/10/news/economy/visa-ban-rural-doctor-shortage/index.html

Again, too bad, so sad, go forth and multipy with yourself.

Don't like it? Then vote next time or vote for a better candidate.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 11, 2017, 07:42:28 pm
Trying to add a picture, did not go as expected

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 13, 2017, 09:55:45 pm
I will add to my list of "too bad, so sad, go forth and multiply with yourself" this:

Allegedly some guy in Texas building a $1.5 million boathouse has hit a dely because some of his workers have been deported.

Awww, poor guy.

When I was in Cambodia in December, our tour leader mentioned how Thailand kicked out tens of thousands of Cambodians.

A year later they were all back and thankfully so: the Thai economy required their cheap labour.

Trump's America will figure this out too. But how long?

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 13, 2017, 10:19:39 pm
I will add to my list of "too bad, so sad, go forth and multiply with yourself" this:

Allegedly some guy in Texas building a $1.5 million boathouse has hit a dely because some of his workers have been deported.

Awww, poor guy.

When I was in Cambodia in December, our tour leader mentioned how Thailand kicked out tens of thousands of Cambodians.

A year later they were all back and thankfully so: the Thai economy required their cheap labour.

Trump's America will figure this out too. But how long?

When the prices for stuff rise.

It's a delicate balancing act as we have now seen what happens when an economy indebts itself so much that it is needing to put caps on foreigners and foreign made goods as a matter of national security as being indebted like they have been has been troublesome.  They are literally trying any solution to get their economy churning again. Protectionism is their latest experiment.

It's a curious experiment to balance the national security of making products while balancing investing in other countries to expand markets and get a return on capital.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 10:22:44 pm
Russian spy Michael Flynn has resigned.  Maybe some sanity is taking over?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 13, 2017, 10:23:00 pm
Putin has accepted Flynn's resignation....

Man, what a gong show.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2017, 10:25:50 pm
Americans didn't care about Trudeau.  Probably best for them not to as they have to compare competence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 14, 2017, 02:16:39 am
Americans didn't care about Trudeau.  Probably best for them not to as they have to compare competence.

As foolish as Trudeau is, he knew enough to not poke the bear and will just let trump do his thing and worry about Canada which will net him another election win.

The media can actually take a lesson from Trudeau as much as that pains me to say.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 14, 2017, 11:09:13 pm
Tonight I wonder two things:

1) Why did the FBI not warn about this Russian crap like they did with "the letter?"

2) Does Putin have buyers remorse?

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 15, 2017, 06:40:17 am
1) Why did the FBI not warn about this Russian crap like they did with "the letter?"
Probably because Comey is in their pockets too.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 15, 2017, 09:52:16 am
Something I read regarding Comey's handling of the Weiner situation (lol!) is that Rudy Giuliani gave Comey an ultimatum that either Comey goes public with it, or Rudy's friends in the New York office of the FBI would leak it.  That information was getting out there... Rudy gave Comey the choice of how. I think that was sourced from "anonymous sources", so take it with a grain of salt, obviously.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2017, 05:15:30 am
Here's a recap of Trump's first month courtesy of a Reddit user.

* Declared the “court system” a threat to national security.

* Insisted that his Supreme Court pick had no problem with attacks on the judiciary, in the face of blatant evidence to the contrary.

* Trashed New START during a call with Putin — after putting the phone aside to ask his advisers what that (nuclear-arms treaty) was.

* Publicly condemned a private company for dropping his daughter’s (increasingly unpopular) fashion line.

* Suggested that publicly criticizing his military decisions is tantamount to aiding “the enemy.”

* Got angry at his press secretary for being impersonated by a woman.

* Used the executive branch’s immense authority over border control to inflict arbitrary cruelty on thousands of Muslim immigrants, create chaos at airports all across America, and sour diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.

* Violated court orders against his travel ban.

* Created a diplomatic crisis with Australia — and threatened to invade Mexico.

* Allowed his press secretary to falsely claim that Iran had committed an act of war against the United States.

* Retained the author of a reactionary screed that likened the 2016 election to Flight 93 as a national-security staffer.

* Suggested that Frederick Douglass is still alive in speech on Black History Month.

* Told a demonstrable lie about the size of the crowd at his inauguration — and predicted that the media would “pay a big price” for refusing to repeat it.

* Told congressional leaders at a private meeting that he only lost the popular vote because undocumented immigrants cast millions of ballots against him.

* Suggested America might once again have the opportunity to confiscate Iraq’s oil.

* Allowed his company to leverage the cachet of his election into a massive expansion of its hotel empire.

* Ordered the Department of Homeland Security to issue a weekly list of crimes (allegedly) committed by undocumented immigrants in sanctuary cities.

* Prepared to radically reduce American funding to the United Nations.

* Signed a bevy of executive orders that were drafted by the White House’s Breitbart wing — and no one else.

* Declared that his election had restored American democracy, in an angry, authoritarian inaugural address.

* Replaced the White House website’s page on climate change with a vow to drill for oil on federal lands.

* Defamed a hero of the civil-rights movement in a series of racist tweets.

* llowed his secretary of State nominee to pledge that America would block China’s access to its disputed islands in the South China Sea — a promise that, if kept, would almost certainly mean war.

* Named his son-in-law a senior White House adviser, in defiance of norms (and, very likely, laws) against nepotism.

* Called NATO obsolete.

* Repeatedly denigrated America’s intelligence agencies, then leaked plans to downsize them.

* Declared his openness to reviving a nuclear arms race.

* Disparaged the sitting American president, while praising a hostile foreign autocrat.

* Continued to use Twitter as a tool for souring diplomatic relations with the world’s second-greatest power.

* Named a billionaire investor — with an enormous, personal financial interest in deregulating certain sectors of the economy — as his special adviser on regulatory reform.

* Declared the American intelligence community to be inherently untrustworthy, after it produced information that he did not like.

* Said he would continue skipping daily intelligence briefings when he becomes president because he’s smart enough to get by without them.

* Said he doesn’t know why he should be bound by the One China Policy.

* Invited his adult sons — who are slated to run the Trump Organization next year — to a policy meeting with the leading lights of Silicon Valley.

* Picked a man who once tried to call for the abolition of the Energy Department — but couldn’t remember the department’s name — as secretary of Energy.

* Named his bankruptcy lawyer — who thinks liberal Jews are “worse” than Nazi collaborators — as his pick for ambassador to Israel.

* Provoked heightened diplomatic tensions with two nuclear-armed states.

* Handed the Environmental Protection Agency to a climate denialist.

* Handed the Labor Department to a serial violator of labor law. Although he quit like a loser today.

* Requested security clearance for a conspiracy theorist who claims that the Clintons operate a Satanic child-sex ring out of a popular D.C. pizzeria.

* Questioned the legitimacy of the election he just won.

* Appointed Ben Carson secretary of Housing and Urban Development — despite the fact that Carson has no relevant experience and recently declared himself unqualified for any cabinet position.

* Allowed his D.C. hotel to actively court the patronage of foreign diplomats.

* Invited the manager of his blind trust onto a phone call with the president of Argentina.

* Met with Indian business partners who have publicly declared their intention to capitalize on his status as president-elect.

* Tried to coerce Britain into appointing a right-wing extremist as its ambassador to the United States.

* Berated the media at a closed-door meeting for publishing unflattering photos of his double chin.

* Admitted that his charity was guilty of self-dealing.

* Derided protestors as paid professionals whose acts of free speech are fundamentally “unfair.”

* Invited the manager of his “blind trust” to a meeting with the prime minister of Japan.

* Assembled a team of racists to lead his White House.

* Took credit for the fact that Ford will not be relocating a plant to Mexico (which they never had any intention of relocating to Mexico).

* Declared America’s leading newspaper a “failing” institution.

* Took calls from foreign leaders on unsecured phone lines, without consulting the State Department.

* Referred to his White House transition as though it were the next season of The Apprentice.

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5ubnzs/admit_it_trump_is_unfit_to_serve/ddt81h7
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2017, 05:20:35 am
And let's not forget the raid in Yemen

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5ubnzs/admit_it_trump_is_unfit_to_serve/ddt43oi

It's noteworthy that, while making the case that Trump is unfit to serve, they didn't even mention Trump's fiasco in Yemen.  Let's go over that one again.

The Obama administration had been contemplating a raid in Yemen.  To gather intel?  To capture or kill an ISIS leader?  Who knows.  They never committed to executing the raid because they determined it was too dangerous.

Trump becomes the (p)Resident and some knucklehead in his administration convinces him to go for it.  Aaaaaaaaaaaand it proved to be too dangerous.

* A U.S. Navy Seal was killed during the raid.

* 23 civilians were killed, including women and children.

* U.S. servicemen were injured during the raid.

* A 75 Million Dollar U.S. aircraft was destroyed.  In fact, it had to be destroyed by the U.S. military, meaning, we paid for the missile used to destroy our own $75 million aircraft.  *Awesome!?*  ...oh, hell no.

Shortly after the raid, a press conference was scheduled to show off a key piece of intel gathered during the raid.  A video.  It was quickly debunked as being at least 10 years old and already available on the goddamn mother fucking internet.

For me, the most amazing aspect of the raid in Yemen is that Trump didn't even go to the situation room to be briefed before approving the raid.  What was Trumple Thinskin so busy doing that he couldn't be thoroughly briefed in order to make the best possible decision?

**...He was eating.**

And here's a question nobody seems to have asked about the Yemen raid: Who actually WAS in the Situation Room for the Yemen raid?  Was it Skeletor himself, Steve Bannon?

There's a lot of talk about Trump being a Russian Puppet, but there's more than one hand up that clown's ass making his fish faced mouth move.  Trump is just as much Bannon's puppet, and lives have already been lost because of it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 16, 2017, 08:21:13 am
It has surprised me that the raid in Yemen has had so little coverage, especially given that a US soldier was killed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2017, 08:42:09 am
Meanwhile, Benghazi.....
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 16, 2017, 09:17:18 pm
2017 - "I have nothing to do with Russia"
1998 - "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
1972 - "I am not a crook"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2017, 10:39:07 pm
I thought he'd do fine.  I'm now convinced he won't make it through his first term.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2017, 05:30:40 am
Just some comments from Trump supporters to give you an idea of what some people think:

"We Trumpsters know-President Trump is the best thing since Abe Lincoln!🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸"

"Yes indeed he is "crazy like a fox" & cannot be contained by the usual methods.
Remember when the media and the GOP laughed and said he's a joke? People underestimate this man - our President all the time and he uses it to his advantage. Who's laughing now? God bless President Trump! 👍🇺🇸"

"I fully agree , the man is a genius!! Sit back and watch him in action , The media won't control or define him , FANTASTIC! I knew what I was doing when I placed my ballot 👏👏👏❣💥"

"I agree with you how sick America is right now, [NAME], for the exact opposite reason you would think. The far left liberals have not only destroyed our freedoms, society, and culture, they are trying to destroy any chance we may have to make things so much better for all people. Too many people have been told on what to think, and not how to have a mind and ideas of their own. It is frowned upon to be an individual and have your own thoughts and ideas. The far left is trying to destroy our country, because they are not into individual freedoms. They are into a herd mentality."

All of these are in response to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFcbQFHLptQ

They actually think Trump is playing 4D chess.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 17, 2017, 08:52:55 am
I thought he'd do fine.  I'm now convinced he won't make it through his first term.
What made you think he'd do fine? Your crazymeter sometimes doesn't work?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 17, 2017, 09:04:34 am
What's with Trump and Deutsche Bank? Why do they keep lending him and the other Trumps money after he refused to repay a 300M loan?

No wonder he doesn't want to release his tax returns.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/16/how-donald-trump-became-deutsche-bank-biggest-headache
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2017, 09:38:07 am
I find it pretty interesting that one of the comments up above I posted said:

"It is frowned upon to be an individual and have your own thoughts and ideas. The far left is trying to destroy our country, because they are not into individual freedoms. They are into a herd mentality."

I find myself becoming less judgmental of religious identities as I study them, so i want to address this point and why it's so strange; however, in order to do so I need to lead up to it. First I will need to describe some of the history of Protestantism in the United States.

Protestantism in the US had two ideological strands throughout most of the 20th century: mainline and evangelical. Mainline Protestant churches were more liberal; they believed the believe in the social welfare message of Christ and sought to go out and aid others, as Jesus preached to do in the sermon on the mount. Evangelical Protestant churches were the conservative strand of Protestantism, which offered a strict guidelines for a healthy and moral life. They strictly controlled their congregations lifestyles and sought to have others join them, so that they too may be saved. As opposed to going out, allowing others to be what they are and simply providing assistance and care, evangelism sought to spread the word of God under the notion that people who accept him will join their fold.

The key difference between these two strands of Protestantism is that one values individualism and looks to synthesize its teachings and beliefs with an increasingly pluralistic society, whilst the other looked out for themselves. Conservative religions held traditionalist values. Politically, they are intent on creating an evangelical Protestant America. Traditionalism values subdues the individual in favour of the group. In fact, straying from the program is very much considered a threat, not to just the religion but society as a whole. You see, the prescribed life of conservative religion is a response to the fractured identities we suffer from the radical individualism associated with modernity. Modernity might be seen as nihilistic in the sense that if we can be anything, then we are nothing. The modern condition is one of having no place, role, or position in society or time. Anything goes.

Evangelical conservative Christianity is a response to this modern condition. Throughout the 60s and 70s as society became more liberal, attendance in the Mainline Protestant churches (read: liberal Protestant churches) rapidly declined. People could be spiritual or faithful without church. Religious identities were becoming fragmented just as our social identities were. People began observing religions like they were in a cafeteria picking and choosing their dishes, keeping and discarding the parts that had the most meaning for them. Attending weekly services is one of the things that suffered, even though many continued to have a personal devotion. Paradoxically, while all of this was happening, conservative evangelical churches were holding onto their membership. These "stricter" churches that prescribed guidelines for their members lifestyles and enforced them may seem anachronistic but they serve a very important purpose. They give people a sense of purpose and identity. They prescribe for them a role in society that allows them to understand their place in space and time. Individualism led to the rise of many mental health issues, such as depression and anxiety, precisely because it has become harder to find your place and role in this world. So many turned to or stayed with evangelical or more traditionalist religions as a way of finding meaning, purpose, and simply a place in an increasingly fragmented society.

What this commenter above characterized as an assault on society by liberals is not correct. "Liberalism" is the idea of individual freedoms and liberties, so it makes absolutely no sense to characterize liberal ideology as the subjugation of the individual. Liberal ideology is literally the exact opposite. It is conservative ideology that wants everyone to join their fold because they think the path to social well-being is a prescriptive program of faith that provides lifestyle guidelines to give everyone a place and sense of purpose in society. If it seems that Evangelical Christians are trying to take over the government and make everyone follow their beliefs, it is because that is exactly what they are doing and they strongly believe it is not just the right thing to do, but it is the moral thing to do. This doesn't just go for Christians, this is any traditionalist religion. The welfare of society and people's entire sense of purpose are bound up in the prescription of a conservative religious life that strictly values the group over the individual. Any deviation from the group is such a problem that there have been times where the group calls for the death of the person who doesn't subjugate their individuality before their faith. This is what happened to Salman Rushdie after publishing The Satanic Verses. This is what happened when conservative Christians justify the murder of abortion doctors.

So to put it simply, it is not liberals who are denying individual liberties and freedoms. It is very much a Christian conservative ideology that looks to subjugate the individual in favour of the group, one very specific group that all are invited to join and those who don't are seen as a threat to the group's very existence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2017, 09:56:10 am
Oh and another thing, Western society set out on the liberal project back during the Enlightenment when it was no longer acceptable to cite tradition, but rather we embarked on a journey where reason was the path to truth. The Reformation was just a milestone on that journey, where individuals could now interpret the Bible and the word of God. However, this project reaches into all aspect of people's lives. Conservative ideology is one that seeks to "conserve" the old traditions, deny reason, and thereby deny individuality and individual liberty. Conservatism is about tradition and society as the body organic, where everyone has a role and a function as part of the group. Those who do not want to fulfill their role are to be exiled or are otherwise a threat to society.

Long story short, people on Facebook haven't got a fucking clue what they're talking about.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 17, 2017, 10:11:17 am
What made you think he'd do fine? Your crazymeter sometimes doesn't work?

I thought he'd have smart people around him to make up for his nonsense.  I was wrong.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 17, 2017, 03:44:50 pm
Just some comments from Trump supporters to give you an idea of what some people think:

"We Trumpsters know-President Trump is the best thing since Abe Lincoln!🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸"

"Yes indeed he is "crazy like a fox" & cannot be contained by the usual methods.
Remember when the media and the GOP laughed and said he's a joke? People underestimate this man - our President all the time and he uses it to his advantage. Who's laughing now? God bless President Trump! 👍🇺🇸"

"I fully agree , the man is a genius!! Sit back and watch him in action , The media won't control or define him , FANTASTIC! I knew what I was doing when I placed my ballot 👏👏👏❣💥"

"I agree with you how sick America is right now, [NAME], for the exact opposite reason you would think. The far left liberals have not only destroyed our freedoms, society, and culture, they are trying to destroy any chance we may have to make things so much better for all people. Too many people have been told on what to think, and not how to have a mind and ideas of their own. It is frowned upon to be an individual and have your own thoughts and ideas. The far left is trying to destroy our country, because they are not into individual freedoms. They are into a herd mentality."

All of these are in response to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFcbQFHLptQ

They actually think Trump is playing 4D chess.

He did win an election, and his attack on the press is proving effective in the eyes of a large portion of Americans, they believe him more than the press...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2017, 03:53:54 pm
This says more about those people than it does the press. It tells me they're ignorant and impressionable combined with being opinionated. When people buy into Trump's bullying of the media, what are they left with? Only the government message with zero accountability to the public. These ignorant fools would be beside themselves with rage if a democrat treated the media like this. A free press is the keystone of democracy. Without it you're left with nothing but government propaganda.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on February 17, 2017, 04:35:08 pm
Yes, but they're victims!  Victims of a vast left-wing media!  Of affirmative action and immigrants stealing their jobs.  Now Heil Trump is finally going to have their backs.

Funny how these knuckle draggers love throwing around phrases like snowflake, triggered... yet they're the biggest bunch of whiny victims I ever saw.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on February 18, 2017, 11:22:45 am
I thought he'd have smart people around him to make up for his nonsense.  I was wrong.

It is hard to guess which way things like this go.

In Canada we continue to see conservatives underestimate Trudeau's intelligence, charm, and judgement.

He has, generally, surrounded himself with people who are doing a good job.

Trump, in light of this Flynn incident, is demonstrating just how little respect he is getting: Harward has declined the NSC job on the basis of Trump's meltdown news conference from the other day.

Now, that is a loss. He probably would have been a good fit for the job but now a lesser candidate who is willing to work with a lunatic boss will get the job instead.

It's a self-reinforcing downward spiral into an incompetent abyss.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 18, 2017, 01:44:41 pm
This says more about those people than it does the press. It tells me they're ignorant and impressionable combined with being opinionated. When people buy into Trump's bullying of the media, what are they left with? Only the government message with zero accountability to the public. These ignorant fools would be beside themselves with rage if a democrat treated the media like this. A free press is the keystone of democracy. Without it you're left with nothing but government propaganda.

Trump is as free to make his crude remarks about the press as the press is just as free to make their jabs at trump.  They are quite allowed to bully each other and let the public decide who they believe based on both sides arguements.  Unless trump explicitly starts passing laws hindering the press and their ability to cover the news and express an opinion; the press is just being sore losers.

The press is just as capable of spreading propaganda as politicians and what keeps everyone accountable is multitude of avenues of getting information, determining if the reports corroborate, and not paying attention to the source of information one doesn't agree with.

its far easier to hold the president and his party accountable at election time than it is to hold the editor of a media outlet.

Don't worry obama slammed Fox News on the regular.  The press is having a hard time understanding that freedom is a two way street and that they are allowed to be criticized.  Donald trump criticizing the media is not oppressing them.  Unless trump passes a law hindering there rights, they can't complain if he doesn't take their questions or calls them out.

Unless you show a law where the press is having their rights trampled, they still have their rights in tact
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 18, 2017, 02:19:34 pm
the press is just being sore losers.

It is funny you would say that, and not acknowledge that Trump is also being a sore loser because he doesn't have the press eating out of his hands.

I agree he is free to say what he wants, but so is the press and the fact is they are far more accountable than he has ever been. The press do hold themselves, and each other to account. Trump has been given a free ride, and by deluging the airwaves with continual alternative facts he is trying to bury his worst ones among the others. The press should hold him to account.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 18, 2017, 02:45:16 pm
It is funny you would say that, and not acknowledge that Trump is also being a sore loser because he doesn't have the press eating out of his hands.

I agree he is free to say what he wants, but so is the press and the fact is they are far more accountable than he has ever been. The press do hold themselves, and each other to account. Trump has been given a free ride, and by deluging the airwaves with continual alternative facts he is trying to bury his worst ones among the others. The press should hold him to account.

Trump has not been given a free ride and at the same time he hasn't given the press a free ride either.  The difference with trump and the press is that trump is making no small bones that he's upset at the press and giving it back to them.  Please explain how the press is far more accountable than trump.  Voters can end trumps presidency, but they can't silent some guy writing a blog in his parents basement.

What trump is doing with his "alternative facts" is essentially trolling the media.  By then howling about everything and saying that everything he does is the worst scandal than watergate is really cutting into their credibility.

As for trump going at it with the media, he has to.  All he has to look at is how the media has reported on bush jr., McCain, and Romney.  None of those people pushed back and it hurt the republicans with voters.  Every editor is a human and they have their preferences and a lot of the news is reporting facts and they express their opinions, tone, and delivery based on their preferences which is fine as it's human nature.  Trump is just calling them on it. 

The media is used to having republicans twist in pretzels to try and get their message out whereas trump is now driving the media nuts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 18, 2017, 03:23:02 pm
Trump has not been given a free ride and at the same time he hasn't given the press a free ride either.  The difference with trump and the press is that trump is making no small bones that he's upset at the press and giving it back to them.  Please explain how the press is far more accountable than trump.  Voters can end trumps presidency, but they can't silent some guy writing a blog in his parents basement.

Trump was a no-name reality show hollywood type that was given months and months of free coverage. Trump has to be accountable once in 4 years, the press has to be accountable nightly. This is not about some guy in his basement with a readership of 3 and a mommy to support him, this is about the main stream press that must make payroll every two weeks and if they are not accountable then their financial supporters (advertisers) will walk away.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 18, 2017, 04:18:31 pm
Trump is as free to make his crude remarks about the press as the press is just as free to make their jabs at trump.

Unless you show a law where the press is having their rights trampled, they still have their rights in tact
No one suggested that Trump isn't allowed to be an idiot and nobody said the press was having their rights trampled. I certainly never said that, so I don't know why you're even quoting me at all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2017, 04:44:55 pm
Yes, but they're victims!  Victims of a vast left-wing media!  Of affirmative action and immigrants stealing their jobs.  Now Heil Trump is finally going to have their backs.

Funny how these knuckle draggers love throwing around phrases like snowflake, triggered... yet they're the biggest bunch of whiny victims I ever saw.

Trumplethinskin is snowflake in chief.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 18, 2017, 09:00:36 pm
I get a kick out of this "Winter White House" thing. Must drive the ranks of the CIA and Secret Service nuts. Sitting around chatting with unauthorized people, no knowledge whether the place could be bugged, talking about North Korea and other important security issues. Wow!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 18, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
Trump was a no-name reality show hollywood type that was given months and months of free coverage. Trump has to be accountable once in 4 years, the press has to be accountable nightly. This is not about some guy in his basement with a readership of 3 and a mommy to support him, this is about the main stream press that must make payroll every two weeks and if they are not accountable then their financial supporters (advertisers) will walk away.

Trump's party is accountable every two years and he knows if he rocks the boot too much it's he bye House and senate. 

The mainstream should probably find a new strategy of reporting the news as their ratings are dropping and more people believe trump than the press.  I don't think their shareholders would like that.

Trump has trolled the press for over 30 yrs and they keep taking the bait.

The press should wait until a real quantifiable scandal comes about, unfortunately since they keep crying wolf, he may be able to squeeze one through which would not be good for anybody.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2017, 11:30:34 pm
The mainstream should probably find a new strategy of reporting the news as their ratings are dropping and more people believe trump than the press.  I don't think their shareholders would like that.

Saturday Night Live is doing their best ratings in decades thanks to Trump. I'm sure the news media are taking note.

The Obama presidency was extremely beneficial to Fox News, and I fully expect the Trump presidency will be the same for CNN.  People don't want to watch news media shill for the president. They know that when Trump takes a shit, Fox News and Breitpravda are going to call it ice-cream. That's not what people watch the news for.  The press is a check on the power of government. They know that Fox and Breitpravda aren't going to provide that check.  CNN, the New York Times, and the Washington Post are doing gold star work.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2017, 11:44:01 pm
I get a kick out of this "Winter White House" thing. Must drive the ranks of the CIA and Secret Service nuts. Sitting around chatting with unauthorized people, no knowledge whether the place could be bugged, talking about North Korea and other important security issues. Wow!

It's hilarious... Trump and many conservatives criticized Obama for going golfing too often. Trump goes golfing at his private club every weekend. Conservative reaction: *crickets*

Many conservatives criticized Obama for spending too much taxpayer money on his vacations. Obama's travel cost the US taxpayer on average $12 million per year-- just under $100 million during his 8 years as president.  Trump's trips to Mar-a-Lago have cost the US taxpayer $11 million over the past 3 WEEKS.  Conservative reaction: *crickets*

It's costing approximately $300,000 per DAY that Melania Trump and Barron Trump live in Trump Tower.  The security cost of having separate residences for Mr Trump and Mrs Trump will come to over $30 million by the time Barron's school year is up.  Conservative reaction: *crickets*

Republicans were all over this stuff when Obama was in charge. Now? They have nothing to say.  Hypocrites.  SAD! LOW ENERGY!  PATHETIC!

Also, what's with calling his golf club the "Winter White House"?  Does he think he's Tsar Nicholas or something?

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 12:15:04 am
It's hilarious... Trump and many conservatives criticized Obama for going golfing too often. Trump goes golfing at his private club every weekend. Conservative reaction: *crickets*

Many conservatives criticized Obama for spending too much taxpayer money on his vacations. Obama's travel cost the US taxpayer on average $12 million per year-- just under $100 million during his 8 years as president.  Trump's trips to Mar-a-Lago have cost the US taxpayer $11 million over the past 3 WEEKS.  Conservative reaction: *crickets*

It's costing approximately $300,000 per DAY that Melania Trump and Barron Trump live in Trump Tower.  The security cost of having separate residences for Mr Trump and Mrs Trump will come to over $30 million by the time Barron's school year is up.  Conservative reaction: *crickets*

Republicans were all over this stuff when Obama was in charge. Now? They have nothing to say.  Hypocrites.  SAD! LOW ENERGY!  PATHETIC!

Also, what's with calling his golf club the "Winter White House"?  Does he think he's Tsar Nicholas or something?

 -k

It was actually deemed "the winter white house" by the heiress to the post cereal fortune who donated it to the government to fulfill what the title referred to. However it was given back to her and then put up for sale. Trump's first low bid offer was turned down but was later accepted because he was able to slither into the beach property in front of the place and threatened to put up condos to destroy the view. But his use of it will as you say cost a shitload on extra security. You'll probably see Putin at the table there before long.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 12:24:48 am
Anyway on a humorous note, let me tell ya a really really old pilot joke that might just be applicable to the current US government situation. Pardon me if you already know it.

So the captain comes on the intercom and says "ladies and gentlemen I have good news and bad news. The good news is we are making really good time today. The bad news is, we are lost"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 12:36:05 am
Saturday Night Live is doing their best ratings in decades thanks to Trump. I'm sure the news media are taking note.

The Obama presidency was extremely beneficial to Fox News, and I fully expect the Trump presidency will be the same for CNN.  People don't want to watch news media shill for the president. They know that when Trump takes a shit, Fox News and Breitpravda are going to call it ice-cream. That's not what people watch the news for.  The press is a check on the power of government. They know that Fox and Breitpravda aren't going to provide that check.  CNN, the New York Times, and the Washington Post are doing gold star work.

 -k

I remember in 08 CNN wanted to brand themselves as no bias nO bull and that somehow disappeared.  I wouldn't say cnn's ratings will benefit as will msnbc's but only by so much as the mainstream media as a whole is dying a slow death due to multiple online sources like vox, daily wire, etc.

Fox News is still doing good shilling for trump.  The press is a check on government but they keep crying wolf which is making them look biased and feeding trumps narrative.

I'm wondering what the ratings would have been if McCain won due to Tina fay doing a good palin like Alec Baldwin does trump (which is hilarious)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 12:51:44 am
I remember in 08 CNN wanted to brand themselves as no bias nO bull and that somehow disappeared.  I wouldn't say cnn's ratings will benefit as will msnbc's but only by so much as the mainstream media as a whole is dying a slow death due to multiple online sources like vox, daily wire, etc.

Fox News is still doing good shilling for trump.  The press is a check on government but they keep crying wolf which is making them look biased and feeding trumps narrative.

I'm wondering what the ratings would have been if McCain won due to Tina fay doing a good palin like Alec Baldwin does trump (which is hilarious)

CNN is a news media, SNL is an entertainment/comedy media. They do tend to mesh and overlap, but you must keep them separate in your mind. Trump's foibles do tend to create a scenario where it sometimes is hard to keep them straight.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2017, 08:53:55 am
Trump's party is accountable every two years
You think Trump gives a shit about "his" party?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 10:10:26 am
You think Trump gives a shit about "his" party?

He will have to if he doesn't want to repeat the obama experience.  As we have seen executive orders don't have much staying power.  Bill Clinton was wise to get along with congress.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 02:18:11 pm
He will have to if he doesn't want to repeat the obama experience.  As we have seen executive orders don't have much staying power.  Bill Clinton was wise to get along with congress.

Executive orders must be legal and respective of the constitution if they are to have staying power. Do you think Trump wouldn't want to repeat Obama's success's.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 02:43:41 pm
Executive orders must be legal and respective of the constitution if they are to have staying power. Do you think Trump wouldn't want to repeat Obama's success's.

Trump is repealing obamas executive orders.  Not very successful when the next president can rip them up.  There's a reason I'll Clinton got along with congress and why obama suggested to get things done through congress.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 03:23:54 pm
I see Trump is now making up stories about terrorist attacks that didn't happen, apparently to bolster his immigration ban. The last terrorist attack in Sweden wasn't last Friday night, it was in 2010 when a local blew only himself up with his bomb. So for those who like to try and blame what they call "fake news" that hurts Trump, maybe he should stop making up actual fake news.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-sweden-terror-lie_us_58a8f397e4b045cd34c263d3
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 03:53:05 pm
I see Trump is now making up stories about terrorist attacks that didn't happen, apparently to bolster his immigration ban. The last terrorist attack in Sweden wasn't last Friday night, it was in 2010 when a local blew only himself up with his bomb. So for those who like to try and blame what they call "fake news" that hurts Trump, maybe he should stop making up actual fake news.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-sweden-terror-lie_us_58a8f397e4b045cd34c263d3

I have a secret:

He's trolling his opponents.  Shhh!!!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 19, 2017, 04:05:44 pm
You are right, he is a Troll. America elected a Troll for President. Well done. The media needs to stop feeding him and get on with news.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 04:15:40 pm
I have a secret:

He's trolling his opponents.  Shhh!!!

It's certainly no secret he just continues to make an ass of himself. It's pretty telling when he whinges incessantly about "fake news" and then tells an outright lie (one of many) in a televised campaign speech. even his supporters are probably smart enough to catch on to that. Shhhh!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 19, 2017, 04:34:47 pm
Trump is trolling the media and it is feeding him. They need to stop feeding him, ignore his shots and just stick with the facts. Dig up all the dirt they can but make sure they are factual. The opposite of Trump.

Or they can do what Ana Navarro, a Republican did when Trump's snowflake in law went whining to CNN brass about unfair treatment and her in particular. Make it short an brutal.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/320044-ana-navarro-hits-kushner-for-complaining-about-cnn-oh-baby-boy
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 19, 2017, 05:16:11 pm
I have a secret:

He's trolling his opponents.  Shhh!!!

that would require some kind of thought, or coherent plan.  There's no evidence of that.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 06:51:59 pm
that would require some kind of thought, or coherent plan.  There's no evidence of that.

He has done this for 30 yrs.  he knows how to manipulate the media and is doing same.  The problem is that they are using the same tactics that they used on Romney, McCain, and bush jr. however they don't work on trump. 

They need to stick to reporting facts good and bad and stop their obsession with him.  There will be a time when trump messes up and they need their credibility to make it stick.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on February 19, 2017, 07:10:41 pm
Trump's supporters are dedicated, that's for sure.

Quote
Trump appeared in Florida Saturday where 9,000 followers gathered to hear him speak, including one man who said he salutes and prays to a six-foot cardboard cut-out of Pres. Trump every day.



http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/trump-admits-false-last-night-in-sweden-claim-was-something-he-heard-broadcast-on-fox-news/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 19, 2017, 07:46:28 pm



Trump's ego is like a tire with a slow leak, it needs to be pumped up regularly.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 08:32:24 pm
He has done this for 30 yrs.  he knows how to manipulate the media and is doing same.  The problem is that they are using the same tactics that they used on Romney, McCain, and bush jr. however they don't work on trump. 

They need to stick to reporting facts good and bad and stop their obsession with him.  There will be a time when trump messes up and they need their credibility to make it stick.

Not sure what you mean by "they don't work on Trump". They are simply reporting on Trump. What is working on Trump is his continuous outpouring of lies and stupidity. He should try sticking to his teleprompter because when he goes off script he just digs that hole a little deeper.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 09:20:16 pm
Trump is now trying to back peddle on his "fake news" statement about a terrorist attack in Sweden which didn't occur by saying he was referring to a Fox news story to do with immigrants. How can one man generate so much bullshit on a daily basis and expect anyone not to shake their heads? Of course he does have his supporters such as the likes of KellyAnne Conway who makes up her own stories about the "Bowling Green" massacre and then the Atlanta one of course. Where does it end I wonder?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 09:23:38 pm
Not sure what you mean by "they don't work on Trump". They are simply reporting on Trump. What is working on Trump is his continuous outpouring of lies and stupidity. He should try sticking to his teleprompter because when he goes off script he just digs that hole a little deeper.

Except that the American people believe trump more than the media.  The only ones digging holes are the media.  Trump wants the media flailing about trying to dig crap on them so he can show his supporters the fix is in on him.  All the media needs to do is bide their time, but they refuse to.  Barring a recession, if the media keeps doing what they are doing, trump will win again.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 09:38:44 pm
Except that the American people believe trump more than the media.  The only ones digging holes are the media.  Trump wants the media flailing about trying to dig crap on them so he can show his supporters the fix is in on him.  All the media needs to do is bide their time, but they refuse to.  Barring a recession, if the media keeps doing what they are doing, trump will win again.

You now speak for the American people do you? I don't think so. The media simply reports the blunders and lies Trump tries to flog. And it seems Trump supplies all that on a more or less daily basis. Or do you think there was a terrorist attack in Sweden Friday night, because Trump said so? American's are waking up and I doubt Trump will make it beyond the mid terms, if the courts don't nail him first with regard to his constitutional failings.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 09:48:38 pm
You now speak for the American people do you? I don't think so. The media simply reports the blunders and lies Trump tries to flog. And it seems Trump supplies all that on a more or less daily basis. Or do you think there was a terrorist attack in Sweden Friday night, because Trump said so? American's are waking up and I doubt Trump will make it beyond the mid terms, if the courts don't nail him first with regard to his constitutional failings.

Do you speak for the American people?

It's simple communication and gamesmanship.  You guys and the media took the bait hook line and sinker.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 19, 2017, 10:18:37 pm
Do you speak for the American people?

It's simple communication and gamesmanship.  You guys and the media took the bait hook line and sinker.

I'm sorry but if you buy Trump's garbage it's you who have the hook embedded. And do you actually believe there was a terrorist attack in Sweden Friday night? And would you prefer the press not report his, or Spicers, or Kellyannes, etc., etc., lise?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 19, 2017, 11:40:52 pm
I'm sorry but if you buy Trump's garbage it's you who have the hook embedded. And do you actually believe there was a terrorist attack in Sweden Friday night? And would you prefer the press not report his, or Spicers, or Kellyannes, etc., etc., lise?

I'm just an observer.  I don't believe half the stuff trump says, however I know that it puts the left into a tizzy which I find glorious. 

The thing is the only people who care about his Sweden remark is democrats and the press.  His supporters are not caring about his bombast and are looking at his results which are executive orders checking off campaign promises.  Keystone xl check, Dakota access check, offensive immigration ban check, process started on the wall check, confidence in stock markets check, working with companies to invest in USA check.

His supporters are seeing things are getting done in spite of the left freaking out over a Sweden comment.  You guys are getting trolled and it's poetic justice.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 20, 2017, 08:22:24 am
I'm just an observer.  I don't believe half the stuff trump says, however I know that it puts the left into a tizzy which I find glorious.
That you don't find the lies, coverups, and propaganda a problem says a lot about you. It's not a flaw of "the left" that they find Trump's behaviour abhorrent.

By the way, "the left" also includes notable Republicans like John McCain and Lindsay Graham....but whatever, right?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 20, 2017, 09:13:05 am
I have a secret:

He's trolling his opponents.  Shhh!!!

This isn't "trolling", this is propaganda. Pure and simple. They're making up lies to support this agenda of security and anti-Muslim prejudice. "The Bowling Green massacre!"  "The highest murder rate in 47 years!" "The incident in Sweden yesterday!"

This isn't "trolling", this is deliberate deceit.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 20, 2017, 09:25:49 am
I think what is important is the media doesn't let Trump make it about them, meaning stop complaining about being called fake news because they won't get a lot of sympathy.  Ignore it and just keep doing their job of reporting the real verifiable facts and calling Trump on his BS. This can't keep up forever, eventually he will be buried under his own pile of dung.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 20, 2017, 09:48:35 am
His supporters are seeing things are getting done in spite of the left freaking out over a Sweden comment.

If his supporters looked for real results, they would be sadly disappointed. Being told he is getting things done from the liar in chief is not evidence of any accomplishment, it is only evidence of the gullibility of his supporters - and that is not news.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 09:50:12 am
This isn't "trolling", this is propaganda. Pure and simple. They're making up lies to support this agenda of security and anti-Muslim prejudice. "The Bowling Green massacre!"  "The highest murder rate in 47 years!" "The incident in Sweden yesterday!"

This isn't "trolling", this is deliberate deceit.

 -k

Which is why over 50% don't believe what trump says.  He's still trolling by trying to get a reaction out of the press to show his supporters the media bias.

This isn't the first time he's trolled the press with nonsense.  This is the guy who used to call the press in the 1980s with a fake name to make up stories about him to get his name out.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 09:52:23 am
If his supporters looked for real results, they would be sadly disappointed. Being told he is getting things done from the liar in chief is not evidence of any accomplishment, it is only evidence of the gullibility of his supporters - and that is not news.

His supporters were looking for something quantifiable.  There's a reason there were those photo ops with him signing the executive orders which shows action being taken.  Typically stuff like that takes time to yield true results.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 09:52:32 am
Except that the American people believe trump more than the media. 

incorrect. SOME Americans believe Trump more than the media. Most likely those with psychological issues, learning problems, no education and low IQs.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 20, 2017, 09:56:25 am
This is the guy who used to call the press in the 1980s with a fake name to make up stories about him to get his name out.

Kind of reminds me of Dave from Scarborough. The similarities between the two buffoons are uncanny.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 09:58:12 am
incorrect. SOME Americans believe Trump more than the media. Most likely those with psychological issues, learning problems, no education and low IQs.

https://www.google.ca/amp/thehill.com/homenews/administration/320205-fox-poll-voters-split-on-whether-to-trust-trump-or-media%3Famp?client=safari

And

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-02-09/trump-administration-more-trusted-than-the-media-poll-finds%3Fcontext%3Damp?client=safari

This tells me Americans are typically skeptical about things being told to them and think critically
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 10:08:31 am

This tells me Americans are typically skeptical about things being told to them and think critically

Funny. What this tells me is a lot of Americans are incapable of thinking critically.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 10:15:59 am
Funny. What this tells me is a lot of Americans are incapable of thinking critically.

Neither of them have over 50% believability.  If they didn't think critical, one would have sky high believeable ratings
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 20, 2017, 10:51:52 am
https://www.google.ca/amp/thehill.com/homenews/administration/320205-fox-poll-voters-split-on-whether-to-trust-trump-or-media%3Famp?client=safari

And

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-02-09/trump-administration-more-trusted-than-the-media-poll-finds%3Fcontext%3Damp?client=safari

This tells me Americans are typically skeptical about things being told to them and think critically

Believing Trump's nonsense and BS is critical thinking? Please.

The media"s problem is "I was told" or "I've heard" or "People say" doesn't cut it for mainstream media credibility, nor should it, but coming from Trump, his supporters lap it up as gospel.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 20, 2017, 11:21:10 am
Trump is the President now. What's the problem with demanding the same standard of truthfulness from a president and his administration, as from the media? That would be critical thinking.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 11:58:26 am

This isn't "trolling", this is deliberate deceit.

Never ascribe conspiracy to what you can explain through ignorance. Trump saw a story on FOX news about huge crime rates among migrants to Sweden from the Middle East and North Africa. That simply reinforced in his head how horrible it is to get overrun by migrants from the Middle East and North Africa, and he blurted that out.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on February 20, 2017, 11:58:57 am
Trump is the President now. What's the problem with demanding the same standard of truthfulness from a president and his administration, as from the media? That would be critical thinking.

The people who put him in office clearly didn't care about his dishonesty, and they don't care about it now either.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 20, 2017, 11:59:52 am
Believing Trump's nonsense and BS is critical thinking? Please.

The media"s problem is "I was told" or "I've heard" or "People say" doesn't cut it for mainstream media credibility, nor should it, but coming from Trump, his supporters lap it up as gospel.
These are also convenient weasel words so he can claim that he wasn't lying....he was just misinformed. Except he's not misinformed. He continues to spread bullshit even after he's been corrected.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2017, 12:11:36 pm
His supporters were looking for something quantifiable.  There's a reason there were those photo ops with him signing the executive orders which shows action being taken.  Typically stuff like that takes time to yield true results.

Looks like he will get even more photo ops if he has to keep re writing his EO's to get them past the courts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 20, 2017, 12:29:40 pm
Trump is the President now. What's the problem with demanding the same standard of truthfulness from a president and his administration, as from the media? That would be critical thinking.

As would not believing any of them.  The media has a ratings problem and media these days has been discussed as "choose your own adventure" media
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 20, 2017, 12:49:13 pm
As would not believing any of them. 

No, that would be willful ignorance of everything, the opposite of critical thinking.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2017, 01:02:46 pm
As would not believing any of them.  The media has a ratings problem and media these days has been discussed as "choose your own adventure" media

Trump seems to be constantly outraged at snl for underscore his gaffes and outright lies and their ratings are sky high.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 20, 2017, 01:49:17 pm
Trump seems to be constantly outraged at snl for underscore his gaffes and outright lies and their ratings are sky high.

He is a godsend to every political satirist and late show host. They don't have to search for topics any more because he provides new material daily. When he is gone, writers will actually have to start working for a living again.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 20, 2017, 02:51:46 pm
Trump is now saying he based his Sweden terror remarks on a TV report, so I guess  we can now conclude that the Donald is getting his international intel. reports via Fox news, rather than those danged leaky intelligence agencies like CIA, NSA etc. And now apparently a lot of Trump supporters are convinced the terror attack actually did happen but the media is covering it up. It seems the slippery slope to conspiracy theories gets slipperier by the day.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on February 20, 2017, 03:12:24 pm
the Donald is getting his international intel. reports via Fox news, rather than those danged leaky intelligence agencies

Maybe there is more in depth reporting at Fox news. You know those intelligence agencies only give him a few bullet points on page, along with a graph or two.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2017, 07:35:31 pm
Trump owes $600M to the Bank of China (Chinese government)....  makes you go "hmmmm...."


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2017, 09:50:07 am
Maybe there is more in depth reporting at Fox news. You know those intelligence agencies only give him a few bullet points on page, along with a graph or two.

Why waste all that time actually reading stuff when Trump knows that if anything serious happens, somebody will tell him. Ezra or Limbaugh or somebody. Don't worry.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 10:07:23 am
Just watching Trump babble on at CPAC. Could anybody do a more effective job of making an asshole of themselves? I think I have heard him completely contradict himself at least 3 times now. What w jerk!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 24, 2017, 03:46:12 pm
Just watching Trump babble on at CPAC. Could anybody do a more effective job of making an asshole of themselves? I think I have heard him completely contradict himself at least 3 times now. What w jerk!

Obama did and his legacy is in tatters.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 03:52:36 pm
Obama did and his legacy is in tatters.
Tatters? One of the best departing approval ratings of any two term president in the history of the US. Maybe do a little research before you post your bias feelings. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 24, 2017, 05:01:01 pm
Tatters? One of the best departing approval ratings of any two term president in the history of the US. Maybe do a little research before you post your bias feelings.

Approval ratings won't matter when the republicans take an axe to everything obama did.  It's why he suggested to trump to get things done through congress.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 06:23:46 pm
Approval ratings won't matter when the republicans take an axe to everything obama did.  It's why he suggested to trump to get things done through congress.
Like Obama care which a majority of Americans approve of. We'll see how the ratings go for dufus.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 24, 2017, 09:29:09 pm
Like Obama care which a majority of Americans approve of. We'll see how the ratings go for dufus.

He doesn't care about ratings, only seats.  The midterms will be his report card
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 24, 2017, 11:05:14 pm
He doesn't care about ratings, only seats.  The midterms will be his report card


I still don't get how you see him caring about the Republican Party.  He has no interest in them.  He cares only for his own interests and ego.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2017, 11:13:40 pm
He doesn't care about ratings, only seats.  The midterms will be his report card
If he makes it that far before his own party dumps him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on February 25, 2017, 05:31:49 am
Approval ratings won't matter when the republicans take an axe to everything obama did.
I mentioned this before. It's bad faith governance. They take an axe to everything Obama did then the nxt time a Democrat gets into office they take an axe to everything the Republicans are doing. It's an unworkable and nihilistic approach to governing. It also ignores the fact that the executive is supposed to represent everyone, not just a narrow segment of the population.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 10:45:50 am

I still don't get how you see him caring about the Republican Party.  He has no interest in them.  He cares only for his own interests and ego.

He has to care otherwise all he has are executive orders which are very easy to overturn
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 10:51:30 am
I mentioned this before. It's bad faith governance. They take an axe to everything Obama did then the nxt time a Democrat gets into office they take an axe to everything the Republicans are doing. It's an unworkable and nihilistic approach to governing. It also ignores the fact that the executive is supposed to represent everyone, not just a narrow segment of the population.

Bill Clinton and the republicans worked together and the result was a very strong economy and a stable government.  Things started becoming incredibly divisive when Iraq was invaded and only got worse from there.  Obama was also starting to take an axe to things republicans were doing and he had to as he was elected on it.  The president has to work with congress to pass laws that don't get overturned.  The USA has been very divided for more than a decade and if there is a recession the republican experiment is over.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 25, 2017, 11:19:22 am
Quote
Obama was also starting to take an axe to things republicans were doing

Like what?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 01:13:46 pm
Like what?

Iraq war, passing Dodd frank, passing obama care for starters.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 25, 2017, 01:15:14 pm
Iraq war,

Was winding down anyway.  Obama simply followed what Bush planned.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 25, 2017, 02:02:36 pm
Iraq war, passing Dodd frank, passing obama care for starters.

So you think wars should last  forever?

I would have said Guantanamo....  but removing a military prison that is ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court isn't exactly "taking an axe" to any Republican policies.

But on the other two things you said, what Republican policies did Obama take an axe to?  Passing legislation is not taking an axe to anything...   Your analogy is poor.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 25, 2017, 10:23:37 pm
So you think wars should last  forever?

I would have said Guantanamo....  but removing a military prison that is ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court isn't exactly "taking an axe" to any Republican policies.

But on the other two things you said, what Republican policies did Obama take an axe to?  Passing legislation is not taking an axe to anything...   Your analogy is poor.

They last till they are won.  Either win or don't start then.  Bushs legacy was supposed to be the war on terror.  Obama pulled a page out of the 1970s democrat playbook.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 25, 2017, 10:56:46 pm
They last till they are won.  Either win or don't start then.  Bushs legacy was supposed to be the war on terror.  Obama pulled a page out of the 1970s democrat playbook.

I don't recall you being worrie about Canada pulling out of Afghanistan before we won...   why the difference?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 12:26:30 am
They last till they are won.  Either win or don't start then.  Bushs legacy was supposed to be the war on terror.  Obama pulled a page out of the 1970s democrat playbook.
[/quote
Do you have any VALID ideas as to why Bush went into either Iraq of Afghanistan? And I wonder how you would suggest either one of those could have been ...WON . Your response ought to be interesting.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 05:05:31 am
I don't recall you being worrie about Canada pulling out of Afghanistan before we won...   why the difference?

Was Afghanistan won?  In my opinion the intentions of turning those countries into future Japan, Germany, and South Korea was a bit too naive.  A lesson the west is learning the hard way.  Those wars cost trillions of dollars and the way they were fought hadn't shown much of a return on investment in my opinion, however for someone else they may have as wars fought over there are better than being fought here.  Hard to say as none of us have a seat that close to power to know what's going on.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 05:13:27 am
They last till they are won.  Either win or don't start then.  Bushs legacy was supposed to be the war on terror.  Obama pulled a page out of the 1970s democrat playbook.
[/quote
Do you have any VALID ideas as to why Bush went into either Iraq of Afghanistan? And I wonder how you would suggest either one of those could have been ...WON . Your response ought to be interesting.

Afghanistan was started over harbouring terrorists over 9/11 and bush had the political capital to start that one.  Iraq was said to have been started over chemical weapons, but I think was seen as an opportunity to pick off saddam and seen as the easiest opportunity to try and pop up a state like a Germany, Japan, or South Korea. 

The problem that the Americans had was I don't think they expected to see insurgency on an order of magnitude like it was.  Unfortunately to win a war in the Middle East which is one of the most fought over pieces of land in history one has to look at history of how it was taken over time and let's just say it was not pretty.  There isn't political will to fight a war there and winning by getting your hands dirty.  Expect future involvements over there to be precision drone strikes taking out leaders and further destabilizing the place as attempting to build a western style nation there has utterly failed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on February 26, 2017, 04:26:03 pm
Was Afghanistan won?  In my opinion the intentions of turning those countries into future Japan, Germany, and South Korea was a bit too naive.  A lesson the west is learning the hard way.  Those wars cost trillions of dollars and the way they were fought hadn't shown much of a return on investment in my opinion, however for someone else they may have as wars fought over there are better than being fought here.  Hard to say as none of us have a seat that close to power to know what's going on.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

You say Obama was wrong to leave...   why was Canada right to leave Afghanistan before we won the war?


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 08:03:19 pm
You seem to be contradicting yourself.

You say Obama was wrong to leave...   why was Canada right to leave Afghanistan before we won the war?

Based on the parameters of how the war was going to be fought, they shouldn't have used ground troops in the first place.  The problem with using ground troops and then immediately retreating when some losses happen is that it takes the perception of strength away and emboldens enemies such as what happened in Somalia. 

The problem with nation building in that part of the world is that they weren't as far along as Germany South Korea and Japan.  There's fighting a war to sack the government and quickly getting out which is what should have been done and then there is waiting around doing the nation building which puts soldiers not on initiative and leaves them liable to insurgency.  Had the goal have been just sacking the government in Iraq and Afghanistan and saying if we get messed with the next government gets sacked - that would have been far better than trying to install a puppet government.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2017, 08:41:21 pm
Based on the parameters of how the war was going to be fought, they shouldn't have used ground troops in the first place.  The problem with using ground troops and then immediately retreating when some losses happen is that it takes the perception of strength away and emboldens enemies such as what happened in Somalia. 

The problem with nation building in that part of the world is that they weren't as far along as Germany South Korea and Japan.  There's fighting a war to sack the government and quickly getting out which is what should have been done and then there is waiting around doing the nation building which puts soldiers not on initiative and leaves them liable to insurgency.  Had the goal have been just sacking the government in Iraq and Afghanistan and saying if we get messed with the next government gets sacked - that would have been far better than trying to install a puppet government.
Could you repeat all that in English?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 26, 2017, 09:11:10 pm
Obama was also starting to take an axe to things republicans were doing

Like what?

Iraq war, passing Dodd frank, passing obama care for starters.

I don't get how passing Dodd Frank or ObamaCare were "taking an axe to things Republicans were doing".

Dodd Frank and ObamaCare were both responses to things that Republicans weren't doing.

Regarding ObamaCare, the Republicans steadfastly refused any sort of changes to the healthcare system. They knew that many people wanted it, but didn't care. They only cared when they realized the issue had a lot of traction with voters. They decided that promising to take everyone back to "law of the jungle" insurance policies wasn't a winning election platform, so in 2012 Mitt Romney promised a plan that would somehow keep parts of Obamacare that people liked, without the parts people didn't like, like the "individual mandate" which is vital in funding the whole thing.  In 2016 Trump campaigned promising a "beautiful" plan that would be "so much better" than Obamacare and "much less expensive".  And the Republicans clearly don't actually have a plan, and the plan is apparently to return to the law of the jungle, which was probably the plan all along. Somewhere around 20 million people are going to lose their insurance, and that's going to come home to roost.

Regarding Dodd Frank,  Dodd Frank was actually a response to Wall Street deregulation, which was actually a bipartisan effort, with the Glass-Stegall act being near the end of Bill Clinton's second term.  Clinton, under the advice of Alan Greenspan, also steadfastly opposed placing any regulation on "derivatives", which was one of the main causes of the financial collapse of 2007-8.

The Glass-Stegall act was enacted in response to the stock market collapse of 1929, and when it was repealed in 1999, it was just 8 years before the biggest financial collapse since 1929. Coincidence? Maybe? Who can say?  The consensus among economists seem to be that the repeal of Glass Stegall was a minor contributor while the lack of regulation on derivatives was the major factor.


Republicans seem to believe that financial institutions can be trusted to regulate themselves, but clearly they can't.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 11:10:16 pm
Like what?


Iraq war, passing Dodd frank, passing obama care for starters.


I don't get how passing Dodd Frank or ObamaCare were "taking an axe to things Republicans were doing".

Dodd Frank and ObamaCare were both responses to things that Republicans weren't doing.

Regarding ObamaCare, the Republicans steadfastly refused any sort of changes to the healthcare system. They knew that many people wanted it, but didn't care. They only cared when they realized the issue had a lot of traction with voters. They decided that promising to take everyone back to "law of the jungle" insurance policies wasn't a winning election platform, so in 2012 Mitt Romney promised a plan that would somehow keep parts of Obamacare that people liked, without the parts people didn't like, like the "individual mandate" which is vital in funding the whole thing.  In 2016 Trump campaigned promising a "beautiful" plan that would be "so much better" than Obamacare and "much less expensive".  And the Republicans clearly don't actually have a plan, and the plan is apparently to return to the law of the jungle, which was probably the plan all along. Somewhere around 20 million people are going to lose their insurance, and that's going to come home to roost.

Regarding Dodd Frank,  Dodd Frank was actually a response to Wall Street deregulation, which was actually a bipartisan effort, with the Glass-Stegall act being near the end of Bill Clinton's second term.  Clinton, under the advice of Alan Greenspan, also steadfastly opposed placing any regulation on "derivatives", which was one of the main causes of the financial collapse of 2007-8.

The Glass-Stegall act was enacted in response to the stock market collapse of 1929, and when it was repealed in 1999, it was just 8 years before the biggest financial collapse since 1929. Coincidence? Maybe? Who can say?  The consensus among economists seem to be that the repeal of Glass Stegall was a minor contributor while the lack of regulation on derivatives was the major factor.


Republicans seem to believe that financial institutions can be trusted to regulate themselves, but clearly they can't.


 -k

For obamacare, I think yes Cruz articulated what was the issue, which was business owners having a gun to their heads to provide insurance when they hit 50 employees.  They hold at 49 and stop growing.  Sometimes profit margins are too small to afford it.  Speaking of affording it, premiums have shot up.  The problem is that since healthcare is so heavily regulated it makes it expensive vs laser eye surgery which keeps coming down yet has more doctors entering that field among other cosmetic surgery.  The USA is slowly running out of money to fund entitlements which includes healthcare.  And then government funded healthcare isn't much better as taxes increase and rationing occurs.  Pick your poison.  Perhaps people will need to start becoming more and more healthy.

As for Dodd frank, a knee jerk reaction which has yielded the USA not achieving 3% growth for more than 8 yrs.  how has Dodd frank helped, it just let a lot of people sit on a lot of bailout money as the corporate community is going to sit on their money when the government unpredictably passes regulations that stifle growth.  Another example of government over regulating which means they will bailout companies for making bad decisions when said companies should fail.  Fear checks greed and if government is trying to keep fear in check, greed runs rampant.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 26, 2017, 11:18:36 pm
For obamacare, I think yes Cruz articulated what was the issue, which was business owners having a gun to their heads to provide insurance when they hit 50 employees.  They hold at 49 and stop growing.

Now back that up with actual facts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Blueblood on February 26, 2017, 11:44:50 pm
Now back that up with actual facts.

https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/individuals-and-families/find-out-how-aca-affects-employers-with-fewer-than-fifty-employees

For some companies that would be a big expense and decisions have o be made on expansion.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on February 27, 2017, 12:31:27 am
For obamacare, I think yes Cruz articulated what was the issue, which was business owners having a gun to their heads to provide insurance when they hit 50 employees.  They hold at 49 and stop growing.  Sometimes profit margins are too small to afford it.  Speaking of affording it, premiums have shot up.  The problem is that since healthcare is so heavily regulated it makes it expensive vs laser eye surgery which keeps coming down yet has more doctors entering that field among other cosmetic surgery.  The USA is slowly running out of money to fund entitlements which includes healthcare.  And then government funded healthcare isn't much better as taxes increase and rationing occurs.  Pick your poison.  Perhaps people will need to start becoming more and more healthy.

Why is the richest nation on earth having such trouble funding healthcare for so many of its citizens when other western nations seem able to handle the issue without leaving millions without healthcare?


As for Dodd frank, a knee jerk reaction which has yielded the USA not achieving 3% growth for more than 8 yrs.  how has Dodd frank helped, it just let a lot of people sit on a lot of bailout money as the corporate community is going to sit on their money when the government unpredictably passes regulations that stifle growth.  Another example of government over regulating which means they will bailout companies for making bad decisions when said companies should fail.  Fear checks greed and if government is trying to keep fear in check, greed runs rampant.

Alan Greenspan's theory was that danger of financial losses would keep financial institutions from taking excessive risks.

Dick Fuld pocketed in the neighborhood of $400 million in salary and bonuses in the years leading up to the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the 150 year old investment bank he was CEO of.  Do you think he gives a shit that he ran Lehman Brothers into the ground? Why would he? He made $400 million in salary and bonuses by putting Lehman Brothers on the risky path that sent it slamming face-first into the ground. He didn't have to give that money back.   Did Dick Fuld act the way he did based on the belief that the government would bail out Lehman Brothers? No. Dick Fuld acted the way he did based on the belief that Dick Fuld would walk away with $400 million in his bank account.

The insurance writers at American International Group didn't get paid based on the long-term health of AIG. They got paid based on how many policies they sold.  Did the policy writers at AIG issue so many insurance policies for credit default swaps and other shady "derivative"  products based on the belief that the government would bail out AIG if the insurance payouts killed the company?  No. They wrote all those risky insurance policies based on the premised that they would pocket a bunch of money.

Angelo Mozilo made Countrywide the most aggressive issuer of subprime mortgages in America. Do you think Angelo feels bad that Countrywide corkscrewed into the ground just as hard as Lehman brothers? Angelo Mozilo made $470 million dollars by slamming Countrywide into the ground. Do you think he cares whether the government bailed them out afterward?

These guys invented a system-- derivatives, credit default swaps, mortgage-based securities-- that let them issue as many bogus mortgages as possible (google the phrase "anybody who can fog a mirror" for details) and pass the risk along to suckers.  Simple process.:
 1) Issue mortgages to literally anybody who applies.
 2) Bundle shitty mortgages into securities called "mortgage based securities".
 3) Strong-arm bond rating agencies like Standard & Poors and Moody's into giving A+ ratings to your shitty MBSs.
 4) Sell MBSs to suckers, so that when the mortgages tank, somebody else is on the hook.
Easy.

So they had invented a machine that turns straw into gold, and they needed a whole lot of straw to feed the machine. So they knowingly issued mortgages to people they knew full well were deadbeats, put them in pools, bundled them into securities that they could sell, and sold them to suckers.

(Suckers-- anybody who bought mortgage-based securities as an investment-- suckers like me and probably you as well, who had RRSPs that included mortgage-based securities as a component.) 

The system worked great... up until 2007 when investment fund managers started noticing that mortgage-based securities were tanking (which is what happens when you issue mortgages to "anybody who can fog a mirror".)  Suddenly people weren't buying Mortgage Based Securities anymore. Suddenly companies like Countrywide and Lehman Brothers had a problem.  Mortgage originators (like Countrywide) had all these mortgages they couldn't sell to mortgage securitizers (like Lehman Brothers.) Mortgage securitizers (like Lehman Brothers) had all these mortgage-based securities that they couldn't sell to suckers anymore.  Countrywide and Lehman Brothers and all the other companies in the industry had spent all this money buying straw to turn into gold, and then found themselves in serious trouble when the machine wouldn't turn straw into gold anymore.


You say that fear is supposed to keep greed in check.  Ok.  But what caused these financial institutions to lose their fear and let greed run while wasn't the idea that the government would bail them out if they messed up.  What caused them to lose their fear was their belief that they had invented a scheme that let them gamble as much as possible and pass the risk along to suckers. And that should never have been allowed to happen.  That's why there needs to be regulation.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on February 27, 2017, 12:51:12 am
https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/individuals-and-families/find-out-how-aca-affects-employers-with-fewer-than-fifty-employees

For some companies that would be a big expense and decisions have o be made on expansion.

Right, so I'm asking for proof that companies that could have expanded beyond 50 employees didn't because of the ACA.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: TimG on February 27, 2017, 03:00:44 am
You say that fear is supposed to keep greed in check.  Ok.  But what caused these financial institutions to lose their fear and let greed run while wasn't the idea that the government would bail them out if they messed up.  What caused them to lose their fear was their belief that they had invented a scheme that let them gamble as much as possible and pass the risk along to suckers. And that should never have been allowed to happen.  That's why there needs to be regulation.
The trouble with regulation is you can have dumb regulation which can be more harmful than the problem that you are trying to prevent.

A part of the meltdown story which never gets reported because it illustrates how bad regulation was really the problem - not NO regulation.

Under the the international Basel capital requirements, banks had an incentive to buy mortgage  backed securities because mortgage  backed securities allowed them to reduce the amount of reserve capital they needed to maintain. When these securities went bad the banks lost their *reserve capital* which is why we had an international banking crisis on our hands. There would have been no crisis if the stupid regulation allowing mortgage backed securities to be used as bank reserves did not exist.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-banks-bought-so-many-toxic-mortgage-bonds-2009-8

You should also note that that the Basel regulations are NOT solely under the control of the US government so you can't simply blame the republicans for these short comings. Nor does a removal of the Frank Dodd necessarily mean a repeat since the updated Basel regulations are still in effect.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Peter F on February 27, 2017, 06:50:08 am
Quote
Under the the international Basel capital requirements, banks had an incentive to buy mortgage  backed securities because mortgage  backed securities allowed them to reduce the amount of reserve capital they needed to maintain. When these securities went bad the banks lost their *reserve capital* which is why we had an international banking crisis on our hands. There would have been no crisis if the stupid regulation allowing mortgage backed securities to be used as bank reserves did not exist.

Mortgage backed securities are fine ... unless the ratings don't reflect the actual make-up of the MBS. When those banks subject to Basel capital requirements don't even bother to do any homework for the sole reason that if they did then they wouldn't be able to lend as much and it turns out that the MBS's were really shit and they go broke, well the Basel Capital requirements don't really mean much for regulation.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2017, 08:47:59 am
Mortgage backed securities are junk if the only requirement to get a mortgage is a pulse.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on March 01, 2017, 09:54:49 pm
The real problem with the government bail-outs, aside from the cost to taxpayers, is that most of the institutions which engaged in risky and even illegal activities should have been pushed into bankruptcy and their owners, including shareholders, where they were public institutions, should have lost everything. This would have incentivized the shareholders of other companies to make damned sure that the people running the companies followed rules meant to protect the company, and didn't simply go for maximum short term profit to maximize their bonsuses.

The second problem, of course, was that those guys who made millions or even hundreds of millions walked away Scot free. They should have been shot, or at the very least forfeited every last dime they owned. That didn't happen. There was no punishment at all. There is therefore no reason why executives of the major US banks won't engage in precisely the same sorts of activities if the financial regulations are withdrawn. As Kimmy said, why shouldn't they? And as we've seen recently from Wells Fargo, the bonus systems still in place incentivize people at those banks to do whatever makes their numbers look good.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on March 04, 2017, 10:25:05 am
3 days ago Trump was getting accolades for being able to read a speech.

Now he is tweeting about Obama putting the wiretaps on him.

Either:

1) Obama, or someone else, broke the law or

2) An agency had a warrant to tap Trump for a good reason (good enough to convince a judge for the tap).

I think #2 is more likely but #1 is possible.



Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 04, 2017, 10:30:33 am
I see no evidence for it, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised. You've got to remember that it was already established that his campaign was involved with Russia and that Russia hacked the DNC. If Obama did wiretap Trump Tower, it was almost certainly under the advice of the intelligence community for the security of the state and the safety of the American people. Donald Trump and his entire team are enemies of the state and frankly should be up on treason charges.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2017, 01:21:14 pm
Trump should either put up or shut up. He has so far failed to produce a shred of evidence for what is a very serious charge. Personally, I hope he shuts to F up because I am getting tired of his BS, although it is a tad entertaining.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on March 04, 2017, 08:00:13 pm
Trump should either put up or shut up. He has so far failed to produce a shred of evidence for what is a very serious charge. Personally, I hope he shuts to F up because I am getting tired of his BS, although it is a tad entertaining.

The Trump MO, he gets to say anything he wants and you have to prove him wrong. He doesn't have to provide evidence for anything.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 04, 2017, 08:59:29 pm
The Trump MO, he gets to say anything he wants and you have to prove him wrong. He doesn't have to provide evidence for anything.
That certainly seems to be how it's going. I have to scratch my head wondering how such a dufus gets such a free ride.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2017, 08:54:59 am
I'm not sure which is nuttier - the American President or the French election.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2017, 09:00:16 am
Or Edrogen - he could be just as nutty too.

Angela Merkel is a Nazi.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 05, 2017, 12:54:03 pm
Trump advisor Roger Stone was up late last night doing a drunk Twitter rampage (perhaps he learned it from Donald!) in which he seems to indicate collaborating with WikiLeaks regarding "the goods" on #CrookedHillary.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170305042412/https:/twitter.com/RogerJStoneJr/status/838239138834853888

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 05, 2017, 01:13:32 pm
One name I had heard mentioned a while back in regard to Trump's Russia connections was Carter Page.  I heard the name Carter Page connected with a conspiracy theory, which holds that a large Russian oil company-- Rosneft-- gave a big stake in the company to an unknown recipient in December.  The catch is, Rosneft has been struggling mightily since the US imposed sanctions on Russia in regard to the annexation of Crimea. The new owner of that stake in Rosneft will find themselves extremely wealthy if the sanctions against Russia get lifted.  That's the conspiracy theory, anyway... along with the innuendo that the new owner of that stake in Rosneft might happen to be "some individual" who happens to have the power to lift US sanctions against Russia.

I didn't put much stock in it at the time, but Carter Page has been in the news in the last couple of days.  So perhaps the names "Carter Page" and "Rosneft" are worth keeping in mind as this Russia business moves forward.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: TimG on March 05, 2017, 01:22:06 pm
That certainly seems to be how it's going. I have to scratch my head wondering how such a dufus gets such a free ride.
Simple: the left/media has spent the last 20+ years vilifying anyone that did not dutifully parrot the progressive view as morally defective, if not evil. This has created an environment where many people who do not share the progressive political opinions simply don't care what the media says anymore.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on March 05, 2017, 02:07:49 pm
Seems like Trump is taking the wiretap allegations very seriously.

He is not leaving any stone, sand trap, water hazard, rough, fairway, or putting green unturned this weekend.    ;D
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2017, 02:11:20 pm
He's the president. He has access to all of the executive files from his government and every government before him. He wants Congress to investigate, when he has all the files himself already. Every day he looks dumber.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2017, 02:21:27 pm
These are words he actually spoke.

Quote
Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, OK, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart—you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, OK, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world—it’s true!—but when you're a conservative Republican they try—oh, do they do a number—that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune—you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged—but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me—it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right—who would have thought?), but when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners—now it used to be three, now it’s four—but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years—but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us.

Video clip here (http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2015/07/31/donald_trump_this_run_on_sentence_from_a_speech_in_sun_city_south_carolina.html), if you don't believe me. The guy is an imbecile.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2017, 03:26:30 pm
Simple: the left/media has spent the last 20+ years vilifying anyone that did not dutifully parrot the progressive view as morally defective, if not evil. This has created an environment where many people who do not share the progressive political opinions simply don't care what the media says anymore.
So you are happy then with Trump's rapid advancement of the fake news system. Sorry, I'll stick with the old style fact checked style thanks.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 05, 2017, 03:28:21 pm
I read that in his voice cyber, so I don't need to see it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on March 05, 2017, 04:36:16 pm
Trump should either put up or shut up. He has so far failed to produce a shred of evidence for what is a very serious charge. Personally, I hope he shuts to F up because I am getting tired of his BS, although it is a tad entertaining.

What, only NOW are you getting tired of his BS?!

He'll produce his evidence soon, I'm sure. He's keeping it with the evidence of those millions of illegal voters and his tax returns.

Where it'll be safe.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 05, 2017, 06:29:36 pm
Seems like Trump is taking the wiretap allegations very seriously.

He is not leaving any stone, sand trap, water hazard, rough, fairway, or putting green unturned this weekend.    ;D

It sounds more like OJ's quest to find the real killers every day. 

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 05, 2017, 09:37:27 pm
What, only NOW are you getting tired of his BS?!

He'll produce his evidence soon, I'm sure. He's keeping it with the evidence of those millions of illegal voters and his tax returns.

Where it'll be safe.
Nah, I think most of us got tired of his BS long ago. But yeah let's see this evidence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 06, 2017, 10:08:52 am
It sounds more like OJ's quest to find the real killers every day. 

 -k
Hah! That's a good comparison and all I'll be able to imagine every time he opens his mouth now.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on March 06, 2017, 10:30:38 am
FBI says nope, so is Donald saying they were running a Watergate plumbers operation? That would be a crime. So would withholding evidence of a crime. So Donald has given his evidence to the FBI. Right?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: TimG on March 06, 2017, 10:36:41 am
So you are happy then with Trump's rapid advancement of the fake news system. Sorry, I'll stick with the old style fact checked style thanks.
Hell no. I just happen to have some perspective on why Trump won. The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates who do not happen to agree with many of the progressive policy positions. This created an environment where a Trump could win because the left had cried wolf too many times and no one was listening any more. The way back from this mess starts with the left acknowledging that they cannot reasonably expect everyone to agree with their progressive policies and to start engaging with moderates instead of screaming racists/fascist/denier whenever they hear an opinion they don't like.
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: ?Impact on March 06, 2017, 11:10:58 am
The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates

Tea party moderates?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 06, 2017, 11:51:51 am
Hell no. I just happen to have some perspective on why Trump won. The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates who do not happen to agree with many of the progressive policy positions. This created an environment where a Trump could win because the left had cried wolf too many times and no one was listening any more. The way back from this mess starts with the left acknowledging that they cannot reasonably expect everyone to agree with their progressive policies and to start engaging with moderates instead of screaming racists/fascist/denier whenever they hear an opinion they don't like.
Your "perspective" seems to be simply a fairly flimsy swipe at people who think differently than you. My perspective is more based on facts. Trump picked up his EC votes im largely "rust belt" states after he promised to deliver jobs so they held their noses and voted for him. If he fails to provide those jobs he'll be sent kicking horse turds down the road in 2020, if he isn't impeached first.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on March 06, 2017, 07:47:36 pm
Hell no. I just happen to have some perspective on why Trump won. The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates who do not happen to agree with many of the progressive policy positions. This created an environment where a Trump could win because the left had cried wolf too many times and no one was listening any more. The way back from this mess starts with the left acknowledging that they cannot reasonably expect everyone to agree with their progressive policies and to start engaging with moderates instead of screaming racists/fascist/denier whenever they hear an opinion they don't like.

Of *course* it's the left's fault, eh?   Some day I'm going to run across a post or blog or something from a conservative which says "We screwed up".   Heck,even saying "yeah, "the left" did ______, but we conservatives also ____".   I won't hold my breath, though.   

I've recently asked two conservatives to condemn the right-wing nutjobs who sent death threats and other threats to Khalid; neither would.   Will you?  Or will you continue to pretend that only 'the left' screams abuse?
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 06, 2017, 10:21:40 pm
I read that James Comey is like 6'9.  If Trump keeps calling him a liar, maybe he'll reach down and squish Trump's orange head like an over-ripe peach.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on March 07, 2017, 11:27:51 pm
Nigeria is advising its citizens to avoid non-essential travel to the US.

I wonder: why doesn't Trump want to make tourism great again?


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 08, 2017, 02:14:34 am
Nigeria is advising its citizens to avoid non-essential travel to the US.

I wonder: why doesn't Trump want to make tourism great again?

For the sake of argument, I have a hunch that Nigerian tourism isn't exactly a huge contributor to the US economy to start with.


However, I've heard that Trump has already had a significant negative effect on US tourism.  (except to Mar-A-Lago, of course.)  I have a hunch there's also an up-tick in visits to New York by Muscovites.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on March 08, 2017, 08:20:39 am
It doesn't stop at Nigeria though.

Brown skinned Canadian born citizens are allegedly being harrassed at the border: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canadian-denied-entry-us-immigrant-visa-1.4011202

I was reading a tourist publication somewhere indicating that flights to the US were up 3% in January and then were flat in February. 

Could be seasonal variation or could be the start of a reactionary trend to find alternative destinations. The coming months will show one way or the other.

The one country that did not see any decline in people to the US in February was Germany: cue the nazi jokes, I guess. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on March 17, 2017, 09:47:45 am
Remember two months ago and all the "embarrassment" about a Churchill bust being returned to England?

Yeah, that looks quaint now, no?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/17/us-makes-formal-apology-britain-white-house-accuses-gchq-wiretapping/

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on March 17, 2017, 06:29:41 pm
Hell no. I just happen to have some perspective on why Trump won. The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates who do not happen to agree with many of the progressive policy positions. This created an environment where a Trump could win because the left had cried wolf too many times and no one was listening any more. The way back from this mess starts with the left acknowledging that they cannot reasonably expect everyone to agree with their progressive policies and to start engaging with moderates instead of screaming racists/fascist/denier whenever they hear an opinion they don't like.

I'm just so sick and tired of being called a racist by the left that gosh darn it, I'm gonna vote for the most racist candidate there ever was just to show them how unracist I am!

 ::)

Is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: waldo on March 17, 2017, 06:36:50 pm
Hell no. I just happen to have some perspective on why Trump won. The left has spent too many years demonizing moderates who do not happen to agree with many of the progressive policy positions.

snowflake... might you be a demonized moderate?  ;D
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 22, 2017, 07:17:12 pm
On top of Monday's bombshells:

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/844702108125401088

This is grounds for impeachment, IMO. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 22, 2017, 08:19:06 pm
On top of Monday's bombshells:

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/844702108125401088

This is grounds for impeachment, IMO.

And not just in your opinion.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/324948-dem-lawmaker-get-ready-for-impeachment
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on March 22, 2017, 08:42:22 pm
If the evidence is found but don't expect things to happen in a hurry if it is.  Watergate took one night, impeaching Nixon took another two years.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on March 23, 2017, 06:12:25 pm
I'm just so sick and tired of being called a racist by the left that gosh darn it, I'm gonna vote for the most racist candidate there ever was just to show them how unracist I am!

 ::)

Is that what you're saying?

I think what's he's saying is that the mainstream media has kind of lessened their credibility with a big chunk of the population through repeated politicizing of their news coverage which makes their progressive agenda all too obvious. Their expressed cultural values are often condescending when not being contemptuous towards the values of a broad section of the population. Which, as you might expect, tends to turn people off. So when the same media tells them Trump is such a bad guy because he doesn't share their values, well, a lot of people are prepared to say "GOOD! Then he's my boy!"

And btw, I'm one of those people who hates Trump and rolls his eyes when people say you can't trust the "MSM".
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 29, 2017, 10:16:25 pm
So Trump's travel ban gets shut down yet again by the courts. Can this orange haired cretin who now sits in the WH not comprehend what the Constitution he is duty bound to uphold actually says?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 30, 2017, 07:33:06 am
I'm pretty sure Donald Trump doesn't even understand the purpose of the Constitution.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 30, 2017, 11:30:43 am
Donald Trump is musing on Twitter about changing libel laws to hold the failing New York Times accountable for their two years of false attacks on him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 30, 2017, 11:57:32 am
It seems he simply will not take the good advice from others to lay off the Twitter account I guess if you're nothing but a twit it's what you do.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on March 30, 2017, 01:59:15 pm
Bombshell (again)

https://twitter.com/KevinNewmanCTV/status/847520970374086657
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 31, 2017, 07:41:07 am
I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact that Michael Flynn is asking for immunity now.

My thoughts on the matter is that there's too much heat on the administration now and they're going to try to pull an Oliver North.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 31, 2017, 09:23:46 am
Adam Schiff says we should learn why Flynn wants immunity when Sally Yates testifies.  The White House has been trying to prevent Yates from testifying by claiming that things she is going to speak about are protected under "Presidential privilege". This sounds interesting.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on March 31, 2017, 09:25:32 am
"Where there's smoke, there's fire!!!"   -Trump supporters on Hillary Clinton.

"Where there's smoke--   WHO INSTALLED ALL THESE FUCKING SMOKE DETECTORS?!"  -Trump supporters on Russia probe.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on March 31, 2017, 04:48:23 pm
Don't think Flynn will ever get immunity whilst he is under an FBI criminal investigation. Talk about government departments working at odds with each other!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on March 31, 2017, 05:47:41 pm
And the Senate Intelligence Committee has already rejected his request for immunity.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 01, 2017, 12:08:11 am
Apparently according to Trump and Flynn when you seek immunity you must be guilty. There are a bunch of fucking idiots in the WH. Not even worth discussing beyond that realization I reckon.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 01, 2017, 09:21:57 am
I am finding the gaining and use of political capital interesting.

Trump effectively has none and seems incable of even knowing how to gain any other than in the short run. All reactionary tactics and no strategy.

Trudeau still has lots, knows how to use it, and knows how to gain some.

It is an interesting contrast between a "successful" business man bringing "business experience" and a large ego to the job vs someone who doesn't bring any of that baggage.

Of course, I would also trust Trudeau to look after the interests of Canada, or even the US, before Russia so there's that too.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 01, 2017, 09:32:10 am
Today, Justin Trudeau was playing April Fool's jokes.

Donald Trump was lashing out at journalists....
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 01, 2017, 12:48:38 pm
It's still early days but the future isn't looking good for The Donald. So far all he has been able to do is sign executive actions. Unless he can actually get some legislation of his own through a Congress that has shown no inclination to do anything but destroy existing legislation, his reputation as a deal maker will be shot. Business will know it can just ignore him and his threats.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 01, 2017, 01:58:39 pm
Oh but he may well get a few dozen coal miners back down underground and on their way to full time employment, at least until black lung kills them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on April 01, 2017, 04:07:20 pm
Today, Justin Trudeau was playing April Fool's jokes.

Donald Trump was lashing out at journalists....

Maybe he was just kidding...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 01, 2017, 06:45:04 pm
Maybe....
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 01, 2017, 09:07:00 pm
Oh but he may well get a few dozen coal miners back down underground and on their way to full time employment, at least until black lung kills them.

Next he will bring back Blockbuster and all those video store rental jobs!

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 01, 2017, 09:47:06 pm
Good, so folks like you can get off welfare and go back to work.
I'm sure you are looking forward to it. You'll need to educate yourself a bit about movies. I'm sure you'll be fine.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 01, 2017, 10:55:18 pm
I'm sure you've never had a real job, and spend your days in mommas basement.
I only wish I could have stayed in the basement. Instead of all those many long hours flying all over the world. But the practical education I received along the way seems to be something you wish you had had.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2017, 09:38:57 am
It's poor form for a new member (there are 27, btw - this forum is only 2 months old) to to have 2 of their first five posts be personal attacks.  Those posts are gone. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 02, 2017, 10:45:22 am
Trump's polling after only two-ish months: 

https://mobile.twitter.com/PollsAndVotes/status/848345576722898945/photo/1

Sad!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on April 02, 2017, 11:57:55 am
It's poor form for a new member (there are 27, btw - this forum is only 2 months old) to to have 2 of their first five posts be personal attacks.  Those posts are gone.

I can still say Fuck, though, right?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2017, 04:35:11 pm
I can still say Fuck, though, right?

You most certainly can - a little fuck never hurt anyone.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2017, 04:36:23 pm
I see... but it's fine for others though. Enjoy your echo chamber.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  Contributions are valued here, as (as you pointed out) there aren't that many regular contributors.  That's mostly because this forum exists as a relief valve for another.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 03, 2017, 10:10:06 pm
No point dwelling on generation snowflake so lets move on...

Came across the story of Max Planck and his chauffeur tonight:

Quote
I frequently tell the apocryphal story about how Max Planck, after he won the Nobel Prize, went around Germany giving the same standard lecture on the new quantum mechanics.

Over time, his chauffeur memorized the lecture and said, “Would you mind, Professor Planck, because it's so boring to stay in our routine, if I gave the lecture in Munich and you just sat in front wearing my chauffeur's hat?” Planck said, “Why not?” And the chauffeur got up and gave this long lecture on quantum mechanics. After which a physics professor stood up and asked a perfectly ghastly question. The speaker said, “Well I'm surprised that in an advanced city like Munich I get such an elementary question. I'm going to ask my chauffeur to reply.”

The point of the story is to distinguish between real knowledge and facile knowledge. 

As explained in the link, politicians, con men, and the like (i.e. Donald Trump) have chauffeur knowledge rather than true knowledge.

Donald Trump, being a con man politican, is perhaps the greatest current example of this.

What I find amazing is how people fall for this?

Link:  https://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2015/09/two-types-of-knowledge/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 06, 2017, 02:34:33 pm
Well Trump now says he is going to do "something" about Assad. Only a few days ago he was saying there was no reason to do anything about him. Tillerson made a comment that whether Assad should stay or go must be left up to the Syrian people. Ha ha ha. Now after seeing some of the horrible pics from the latest attack he has had some of his "lines crossed". I guess the stupid twit wasn't aware that this war has been going on for 6 or so years. The question is what will he actually do that won't upset his overseer Putin?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 06, 2017, 03:15:40 pm
However, I've heard that Trump has already had a significant negative effect on US tourism.  (except to Mar-A-Lago, of course.)
Actually, the area around Mar-A-Lago is suffering as well.... Trump's frequent visits there have disrupted several of the businesses in the area.

From: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/02/17/trump-florida-visits-put-small-airport-tailspin/NnGgAPQa4wd2Ecpy4wspbO/story.html
President Donald Trump wants small businesses to thrive, but his frequent Mar-a-Lago visits have flight schools and other companies at a nearby airport in a financial nosedive. The Secret Service closed Lantana Airport on Friday for the third straight weekend because of the president’s return to his Palm Beach resort, meaning its maintenance companies, a banner-flying business and another two dozen businesses are also shuttered, costing them thousands of dollars at the year’s busiest time..
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 06, 2017, 03:25:25 pm
Well Trump now says he is going to do "something" about Assad. Only a few days ago he was saying there was no reason to do anything about him. Tillerson made a comment that whether Assad should stay or go must be left up to the Syrian people. Ha ha ha. Now after seeing some of the horrible pics from the latest attack he has had some of his "lines crossed". I guess the stupid twit wasn't aware that this war has been going on for 6 or so years. The question is what will he actually do that won't upset his overseer Putin?
Yup, Trump certainly stuck is foot in it.

Syria is a mess.. a real dumpster fire with no easy answers. Everyone who wasn't a Trump supporter knew he had no idea what he was talking about during the election when he said he had plans to fix the problem. And Trump's praise of Russia and Putin will come back to haunt him; despite both the U.S. and Russia fighting ISIS, they are not allies, with Russia trying to prop up Assad, while the U.S. (at least under Obama) favored various non-ISIS rebel groups.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 06, 2017, 04:21:14 pm
Yup, Trump certainly stuck is foot in it.

Syria is a mess.. a real dumpster fire with no easy answers. Everyone who wasn't a Trump supporter knew he had no idea what he was talking about during the election when he said he had plans to fix the problem. And Trump's praise of Russia and Putin will come back to haunt him; despite both the U.S. and Russia fighting ISIS, they are not allies, with Russia trying to prop up Assad, while the U.S. (at least under Obama) favored various non-ISIS rebel groups.

I was not the biggest fan of Hillary Clinton's (although I certainly preferred her to Trump) and at least on this issue she had a plan that she spelled out that included various things including establishing a no-fly zone over Syria to prevent the types of attacks we just saw. Trump simply made another hollow comment something along the lines of "Oh yeah, we have a plan, but of course no details. Whether Hillary would have been successful with her plan I guess we'll never know. Now Trump is actually meeting with his military adviser so as to actually come up with a plan. What I have heard so far is there is speculation he may be planning to bomb some of the airfields that launched the aircraft the latest attack came from. Of course Assad will laugh at that, he can simply launch the next one with rockets. I got to travel through Syria years ago and found for instance that Damascus was a lovely city with very friendly people. I can't imagine what kind of horror show it's been turned into now.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 06, 2017, 05:43:48 pm
Trump simply made another hollow comment something along the lines of "Oh yeah, we have a plan, but of course no details.
But Trump did have a plan.. first he said he'd fire all then generals. Then he'd ask all the generals to sit down and write up a plan to defeat ISIS. Then he said it didn't matter because he was smarter than the Generals.

For better or worse, I think ISIS will be defeated (at least militarily in Syria/Iraq), and probably during Trump's tenure. Not that I think he'll be responsible (although he may claim credit)... but ISIS was going to run into problems anyways. (They're running out of stuff to sell or steal in order to pay their troops, and opposition in the area is better organized.)

Quote
Now Trump is actually meeting with his military adviser so as to actually come up with a plan. What I have heard so far is there is speculation he may be planning to bomb some of the airfields that launched the aircraft the latest attack came from. Of course Assad will laugh at that, he can simply launch the next one with rockets.
Of course, any plan runs the risk of being opposed by Donald's friends, the Russians.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 07, 2017, 10:33:14 pm
I can't escape the feeling the Syria bombing was a ploy to hide the puppet strings. It seems very House of Cards, but the fact that they warned Russia means Putin warned Assad, which makes one wonder what the point of it was. If they have time to get everyone important out of the way and then just leave a few sacrificial Syrian civilians to make Donald look like a war President, they have all to gain and nothing to lose.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 07, 2017, 11:17:18 pm
Knocking out 20 or so aircraft is like a "fly in an elephants ass" when you consider just how quickly the Russians could and will replace them many times over. You might think if you wanted to F up an airbase you might just blow a hole or two in the runway. Reports say planes have already continued operations. I suspect Trump knew/knows very well he has legal problems with any kind of further escalation of attacks on Syria, so he will simply try and tell everyone how he acted "bigly" (while enjoying dinner at his gold course), and that's all for now folks. And then Russia's boy toy will continue murdering his people.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 07, 2017, 11:58:32 pm
I think he did the right thing with the symbolic slap on the wrist.  I think that it's the first time I've actually agreed with anything he did.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2017, 02:48:22 pm
So Trump gives us all, as one reporter put it, whiplash with his about face on Syria, launches an attack which at the end of the day will only help ISIL, then he pisses away another $3 million to run down to Mara Laga for yet another round of golf, and when he's between holes he's tweeting about the latest missile attack. And of course he says the pictures of chemically burned children moved him to do so while at the same time he has locked the door to them from escaping those attacks by coming to the States. How the hell could anyone take this twit seriously!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 08, 2017, 08:24:57 pm
And if Russia was aware an hour in advance and they're now really upset with Trump for doing this, why did they not even attempt to shoot the missiles down?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 08, 2017, 10:59:04 pm
Someone on Twitter said it best - you can tell Russia doesn't care because they sent out Medvedev to say that they care.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on April 09, 2017, 04:55:55 pm
And if Russia was aware an hour in advance and they're now really upset with Trump for doing this, why did they not even attempt to shoot the missiles down?

Maybe because Russia has no real ability to shoot down 60 cruise missiles.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2017, 05:30:59 pm
Well they do actually but the S 300/400 systems are only in place at the Russian airbases, and they have a limited range. I suspect they didn't want to waste resources fighting off a pre programmed attack. Much easier to just lay low for a few hours and then continue operations the next day.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 09, 2017, 06:45:58 pm
Russia is actually a lot weaker than they seem/many think.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2017, 06:55:57 pm
Russia is actually a lot weaker than they seem/many think.

Yes indeed, their economy is currently the size of Italy's. And then they spend so much of it on military hardware. But of course they do have nukes so we ought not push them too far.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 09, 2017, 10:50:26 pm
Well they do actually but the S 300/400 systems are only in place at the Russian airbases, and they have a limited range.

Yes very limited  ;D :

https://youtu.be/FoM5a6v6410
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2017, 11:05:33 pm
Yes very limited  ;D :

https://youtu.be/FoM5a6v6410

Somebody forget to fill up the gas tank? Off to the Gulag!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on April 09, 2017, 11:44:45 pm
Saw on twitter tonight:

Trump could have done more damage to that airfield if he bought it and ran it as a business. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 10, 2017, 12:39:41 am
Saw on twitter tonight:

Trump could have done more damage to that airfield if he bought it and ran it as a business.
Problem is, these days, the only way Trump can afford to buy a business is to take out a loan from a Russian bank.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on April 10, 2017, 11:41:49 am
Yes indeed, their economy is currently the size of Italy's. And then they spend so much of it on military hardware. But of course they do have nukes so we ought not push them too far.

They have four times our population but a smaller GDP than Canada. Think about what spending enough of our GDP on the military to have a Russian sized military would do to us. On to of that, of course, is the extreme corruption whereby so much of what the country does have is stolen by a small cadre of oligarchs around Putin.

Most Russians live in what Canadians would consider to be extreme poverty.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2017, 10:29:42 pm
So Trump disparaged Obama for his golf games and he's going to "stay at the WH and work my ass off". Boy did that turn out to be yet another lie. So far he has been to Mara Laga 17 times and pissed more money away riding fruitlessly around in Air Force One than Obama did in eight years. He's a joke to us Canucks I guess but if I was an American I'd be looking for a way impeach the asshole toute suite.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on April 11, 2017, 04:11:52 pm
So Trump disparaged Obama for his golf games and he's going to "stay at the WH and work my ass off". Boy did that turn out to be yet another lie. So far he has been to Mara Laga 17 times and pissed more money away riding fruitlessly around in Air Force One than Obama did in eight years. He's a joke to us Canucks I guess but if I was an American I'd be looking for a way impeach the asshole toute suite.

The problem with posting something like that HERE is that you're not going to find anyone to argue with you.  ;D
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 11, 2017, 04:15:41 pm
The problem with posting something like that HERE is that you're not going to find anyone to argue with you.  ;D

Not sure why you would see that as a problem. It's good to have people agree with you.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 11, 2017, 05:13:49 pm
I guess since Putin is not even planning to visit with Tillerson during his latest visit, the likelihood of another Order of Friendship Award is rather slim.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on April 12, 2017, 08:39:08 am
It's pretty bad when the official White House spokesperson is so dense that Alex Jones even thinks he's an idiot. Sean Spicer said the Nazis didn't use chemical weapons then went on to try to explain what he meant five different ways and it's still no less stupid than when he first said it. These people aren't qualified to pack bags at a grocery story, let alone run a country.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 12, 2017, 04:27:51 pm
According to Trump not so long ago, NATO was "obsolete", today it's a great institution. Does Trump ever say the same thing two days in a row? The media that are forced to follow him are getting whiplash from the constant flip flops.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 12, 2017, 07:44:37 pm
He just figured out he needs NATO as much as it needs him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 13, 2017, 11:15:00 am
According to Trump not so long ago, NATO was "obsolete", today it's a great institution. Does Trump ever say the same thing two days in a row? The media that are forced to follow him are getting whiplash from the constant flip flops.
Yes, its amazing how much Trump has "learned", that should have been obvious to someone with even a thimbleful of intelligence/political insight...

Such as:

"Nobody Knew health care could be so complicated".
- Donald Drumph.
(See: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/politics/trump-health-care-complicated/)

Well, Donald, most people actually did know that.

Or how about Trump, North Korea and China:
"After listening for 10 minutes, I realized it’s not so easy."
- Donald Drumph
http://www.vox.com/2017/4/12/15279654/trump-north-korea-xi-10-minutes

The U.S. could have voted for a candidate like Hillary, an imperfect candidate but at least one who actually had political experience and a set of realistic policies. Instead, they elected a racist orangutan with no political experience who's campaign mostly involved spouting half-baked (and often contradictory) ideas.  So instead of getting a president who knows what they're doing right from day 1, they get a president who needs training wheels.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 16, 2017, 01:00:15 am
The so called Cuban Missile Crisis was a scary time as I've learned, but at least we had two leaders at the helms who had some brains, and avoided WWIII. Today we have Kim and "The Hair". Is anybody else a little edgy on this current edition? Maybe Trump has a fortified bunker under Mar A Laga so he stays close.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on April 16, 2017, 03:14:00 am
The problem with posting something like that HERE is that you're not going to find anyone to argue with you.  ;D

On that subject, you can't get Trump supporters at the other place to argue with you either. They won't even acknowledge the point.   "yeah well benghazi or something."

Trump decides to go all interventionist in the middle east after campaigning against exactly that?  "yeah well Obama wiretaps or something."

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2017, 09:02:50 am
The so called Cuban Missile Crisis was a scary time as I've learned, but at least we had two leaders at the helms who had some brains, and avoided WWIII. Today we have Kim and "The Hair". Is anybody else a little edgy on this current edition? Maybe Trump has a fortified bunker under Mar A Laga so he stays close.

Under Mar a Lago he would probably need a submarine.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2017, 11:06:05 am
So it seems the Commander in Chief can't keep track of what his navy is up to. That is "reassuring".

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/18/uss-carl-vinson-wasnt-headed-for-north-korea-when-defense-officials-said-it-was.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 20, 2017, 11:19:18 am
On that subject, you can't get Trump supporters at the other place to argue with you either. They won't even acknowledge the point.   "yeah well benghazi or something."
Its a problem when discussing American politics right now...

If everyone agrees, there's not much to discuss and things get boring. But Trump is so indefensible that nobody can really build any arguments in support of him without resorting to such petty tactics.

Quote
Trump decides to go all interventionist in the middle east after campaigning against exactly that?
Well, that's not exactly fair to trump.. after all, he was actually all for bombing Libya and invading Iraq at one point.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 20, 2017, 04:33:12 pm
So Trumps" AG doesn't seem to think Hawaiians are valid Americans, including their judges. Maybe that's why even after Obama proved he was born there Trump still saw him as unqualified to be POTUS. Not hard to see how Jeff Sessions became part of the Trump "team".

  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/20/jeff-sessions-doesnt-think-a-judge-in-hawaii-a-k-a-an-island-in-the-pacific-should-overrule-trump/?utm_term=.c4cdd0dda98c
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 20, 2017, 08:53:07 pm
Posted this on the dark side as well.  Does anyone think Team Trump or the RNC knew or cared about this?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/19/venezuela-donation-donald-trump-inauguration (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/19/venezuela-donation-donald-trump-inauguration)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 20, 2017, 11:49:39 pm
So Donald Trump got "hired", and now Bill O'Reilly got fired and yet they both seem to be equally guilty of sexual assault. How do Trump supporters square that circle I wonder?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 26, 2017, 02:35:04 pm
So Trump has now laid out his new tax plan where he has readjusted tax rates. So now, for instance a fire fighter who is married will pay 24%, and Trump will pay 15%. His corporate rate reduction will amount to $4 trillion. He better hope against hope that Mexico changes their mind about paying for that wall.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 26, 2017, 03:29:58 pm
Crank up the presses, Papa needs another 4 trillion.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 26, 2017, 04:44:02 pm
He also wants to remove estate tax so the kids will get Trump Towers tax free. "Thanks daddy"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on April 27, 2017, 10:02:09 am
He also wants to remove estate tax so the kids will get Trump Towers tax free. "Thanks daddy"
But how could Trump have known that? After all, he put all his holdings in a blind trust!

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/30/donald-trump-blind-trust-foreign-business-deals-500398.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 27, 2017, 12:10:12 pm
But how could Trump have known that? After all, he put all his holdings in a blind trust!

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/30/donald-trump-blind-trust-foreign-business-deals-500398.html

That was about keeping everyone else blind.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 27, 2017, 02:31:08 pm
Seems like Trudeau has more pull than people give him credit for:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-trudeau-nafta-renegotiation-1.4088545
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on April 28, 2017, 12:43:24 am
Do you really think Trudeau could change Trump's mind on anything? 

I think Trump was just posturing with the whole ripping up NAFTA rhetoric.  He's a business man, he was starting at his end game and negotiating down.  Threaten to rip it all up, slap on a tariff and once we see where things could be headed, he has all the leverage for a favourable negotiation.

Now he looks like he threw us a bone when he played us like a chump. 

I don't buy it for a sec that Trudeau would change Trump's mind if Trump was actually serious about pulling out of NAFTA.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on April 28, 2017, 08:32:19 am
That's just it - Trump isn't serious about anything.  He's simply most greatly influenced by the latest/most popular person to talk to him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 28, 2017, 11:24:41 am
Do you really think Trudeau could change Trump's mind on anything? 

I think Trump was just posturing with the whole ripping up NAFTA rhetoric.  He's a business man, he was starting at his end game and negotiating down.  Threaten to rip it all up, slap on a tariff and once we see where things could be headed, he has all the leverage for a favourable negotiation.

Now he looks like he threw us a bone when he played us like a chump. 

I don't buy it for a sec that Trudeau would change Trump's mind if Trump was actually serious about pulling out of NAFTA.

I think you give Trump too much credit. He just postures for his base. Trudeau was probably partly responsible and I think he is doing the right thing by sticking to the facts and not descending to Trump's level. Trump also probably had a talk from the thirty odd state governors who's states depend on Canadian trade. This isn't a real estate deal or stiffing your creditors and contractors.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on April 28, 2017, 04:37:58 pm
Wilber, aren't you contradicting yourself if you think Trump was posturing for his base AND you think Trudeau influenced him? 

Do you or do you not believe that Trump had no intention of ripping up NAFTA?  If you think he was just posturing for his base, that means he had no intention.

Hence, Trudeau made no difference.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 28, 2017, 07:17:13 pm
Wilber, aren't you contradicting yourself if you think Trump was posturing for his base AND you think Trudeau influenced him? 

Do you or do you not believe that Trump had no intention of ripping up NAFTA?  If you think he was just posturing for his base, that means he had no intention.

Hence, Trudeau made no difference.

I believe Trump has said a lot of things to his base that he intended to do but can't. Why? He is always in campaign mode because he doesn't know what he is doing. He has to be told so after he has shot is mouth off and then make out like it was his idea all the time. It works great with his base but falls apart under serious scrutiny.

Just look at his travel ban and sanctuary city decrees. All it took to get them both shot down was to show the court his own tweets.

The reason most of the world is afraid of Trump is because it believes he is incompetent. Making him POTUS is like handing a six year old a running chainsaw.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 28, 2017, 09:17:49 pm


The reason most of the world is afraid of Trump is because it believes he is incompetent. Making him POTUS is like handing a six year old a running chainsaw.

And even worse, a running chainsaw can't vaporize people on the other side of the globe. Such as what might happen in a "major, major conflict".
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on April 30, 2017, 11:39:48 am
Do you really think Trudeau could change Trump's mind on anything? 

I think Trump was just posturing with the whole ripping up NAFTA rhetoric.  He's a business man, he was starting at his end game and negotiating down.  Threaten to rip it all up, slap on a tariff and once we see where things could be headed, he has all the leverage for a favourable negotiation.

Now he looks like he threw us a bone when he played us like a chump. 

I don't buy it for a sec that Trudeau would change Trump's mind if Trump was actually serious about pulling out of NAFTA.

This is exactly it. These are his SMRT negotiating tactics. He is the deal guy. He is the art of the deal. He makes bigly bigly deals. He is a SMRT negotiator, the best negotiator. High energy negotiations. He is the greatest negotiator, probably the greatest of all time, nobody does bigly bigly deals like Donald, believe me folks.

No doubt when the negotiators meet, the American negotator is going to be "good cop" to Donald's "bad cop".  He will say stuff like "guys, you gotta give me something here that I can take back to Donald. Donny's crazy, he's ready to blow this whole thing up. If you can move on the dairy issue, I might be able to go back to Donald and convince him this is a good deal. You have to give me something I can take back to Donald or he's going to blow the whole thing up."

This was just more crap from his handbook of alpha-male gamesmanship. Like his handshake trick, or when he went on Larry King and told King he had terrible bad breath. "That's how you get the edge," King realizes.  Years later, King had Trump on the show again, and they talked about that incident, and Trump said this:

Quote
TRUMP: [...] but I took such heat because you were saying, "How do you put people off guard? What do you do to put people off guard?" And I said, "Well, Larry, your breath is absolutely terrible." And you even were offended by it, and you forgot the first part of your question.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCnTGhZD4ds

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 30, 2017, 02:36:57 pm
After having skipped out of the White House Correspondents dinner, but after having had a chance to listen to the jokes, Trump is thinking about taking a look at the 1st amendment. Could there be a coincidence?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on April 30, 2017, 05:35:42 pm
After having skipped out of the White House Correspondents dinner, but after having had a chance to listen to the jokes, Trump is thinking about taking a look at the 1st amendment. Could there be a coincidence?

I absolutely think he should take a look at the 1st Amendment. Then he might understand it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on April 30, 2017, 05:57:08 pm
I absolutely think he should take a look at the 1st Amendment. Then he might understand it.

That's a pretty lengthy bit of reading for a guy like Trump, but maybe if he took a weekend from golf and let the 747 cool down a bit, he could at least get a start at it. Of course that would make the damn job even harder: "so forget it, Mara Laga here I come"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 01, 2017, 12:02:11 pm
Quote
After having skipped out of the White House Correspondents dinner, but after having had a chance to listen to the jokes, Trump is thinking about taking a look at the 1st amendment. Could there be a coincidence?
I absolutely think he should take a look at the 1st Amendment. Then he might understand it.
I absolutely hope he actually changes it to make it easier to sue people for libel.

Why? Because the one that will get sued the most is probably Trump himself. Imagine Trump getting dragged through the courts every time he tweets something foolish, or makes some sort of unsubstantiated claim at one of his rallies.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 01, 2017, 02:13:24 pm
Yes I guess I don't know enough about US law but I recall being a bit stunned while suffering through the US Presidential debates at how Trump could slink around scoffing at Hillary and calling her a liar, liar, liar, and all that lock her up stuff and not get sued for defamation or something.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 01, 2017, 04:14:06 pm
I absolutely think he should take a look at the 1st Amendment. Then he might understand it.
Hey wait a second... there's actually a first amendment? I thought the U.S. bill of rights started with the 2nd amendment. And stopped there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 09, 2017, 09:44:33 am
Latest Trump news...  He may have actually just committed a felony.

Right before Sally Yates was to testify, Trump wrote a tweet: Ask Sally Yates, under oath, if she knows how classified information got into the newspapers soon after she explained it to W.H. Counsel. Some are taking that to be a veiled threat (as in "we are going to pin security leaks on you"). The problem is, it is against the law to threaten someone with the goal of changing their testimony:

“Whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatens, or corruptly persuades another person, or attempts to do so, or engages in misleading conduct toward another person, with intent to influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding … shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/09/did-donald-trump-try-to-threaten-sally-yates-on-twitter-if-so-he-committed-a-felony/

Meanwhile, during Yates' testimony, 2 main things stood out:

- Yates confirmed that she warned the white house about Flynn long before Flynn was fired, yet the white house continued to keep him in cabinet

- Republicans in congress seem to be very.... apathetic to investigating the Russian-Trump connections. In fact, Ted Cruz actually tried to use Yates' testimony to bring up Hillary's emails.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/05/09/gop-shoots-messenger-sally-yates-testimony/7pFlDZKB6SRct2xiJWYMSN/story.html

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on May 09, 2017, 06:16:13 pm
- Republicans in congress seem to be very.... apathetic to investigating the Russian-Trump connections. In fact, Ted Cruz actually tried to use Yates' testimony to bring up Hillary's emails.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/05/09/gop-shoots-messenger-sally-yates-testimony/7pFlDZKB6SRct2xiJWYMSN/story.html

There have been so many conflicts of interest with his businesses and nobody seems to care, I have little faith that anything will come of the Russian connection even if they find a smoking gun.  Exactly as you say, Republicans don't seem to care and they control Congress and the Senate.

As Trump said himself during the primaries, he could go out on the street and shoot someone and his supporters wouldn't care.  Sad but true.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on May 09, 2017, 10:01:47 pm
FBI: Fired By Idiot
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 11, 2017, 02:17:10 pm
FBI: Fired By Idiot
Yes, Comey has been fired by Trump.

Democrats are calling it suspicious (based largely on the timing). Trump supporters are trying to label the Democrats as "hypocrites" since they were calling for Comey to be fired a long time ago. (Trump supporters are ignoring the fact that most people aren't concerned about him being fired, but that he was fired now, after being praised repeatedly by Trump both before and after the election, and at a time when possible ties between Russia and the Trump campaign are being investigated.

I think the big winner in all this: The President Nixon presidential library, which used Twitter to publish: "FUN FACT: President Nixon never fired the Director of the FBI."

Think about it... when comparing Nixon to Trump, Nixon may end up being the less corrupt one.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on May 12, 2017, 01:01:44 pm
Not only was Comey fired by Trump, but he's now saying he would have fired him with or without the recommendation from the Justice Department. To make matters worse for Trump, he also threatened Comey this morning, saying "I hope there's no tape of our conversations."
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 12, 2017, 01:38:56 pm
Not only was Comey fired by Trump, but he's now saying he would have fired him with or without the recommendation from the Justice Department. To make matters worse for Trump, he also threatened Comey this morning, saying "I hope there's no tape of our conversations."
And even worser (or since that's not a word, how about "Huugely worse" in trump speak):

- Deputy A.G. Rod Rosenstein (who wrote a memo pointing to some of the flaws with Comey but didn't recommend actually firing him) is actually upset that he has been linked to the firing, to the point where he was thinking of resigning

- The other person Trump supposedly got Trump to fire Comey was Sessions; yet Sessions had previously recused himself from the Russia/Trump investigation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rod-rosenstein-james-comey-firing-2017-5

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 12, 2017, 03:38:04 pm
Poor old Sean Spicer of course got hammered again today at the briefing, and on his first day back from a break as well. If anyone is suffering from whiplash due to Trump's endless  conflicting stories it has to be him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 15, 2017, 11:48:41 am
Poor old Sean Spicer of course got hammered again today at the briefing, and on his first day back from a break as well. If anyone is suffering from whiplash due to Trump's endless  conflicting stories it has to be him.
Given the fact that he took the job voluntarily, and knew before hand that Trump was more than a little... unbalanced, its hard for me to find sympathy for someone who supported (and continues to support) the racist-orangutan-in-chief.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2017, 06:05:31 pm
Given the fact that he took the job voluntarily, and knew before hand that Trump was more than a little... unbalanced, its hard for me to find sympathy for someone who supported (and continues to support) the racist-orangutan-in-chief.

Oh I totally agree with you, he made his bed he so he has to (lie/lye) in it. It's just you can almost see his blood pressure rising as he has to try and cover yet another Trump contradiction. It is rumored he may be on the way out of that post. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2017, 07:46:55 pm
I think he has probably done as well as most people could in his position. I don't see Huckabee Sanders being an improvement.

Might as go whole hog and give it to Kellyanne.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2017, 08:39:21 pm
I think he has probably done as well as most people could in his position. I don't see Huckabee Sanders being an improvement.

Might as go whole hog and give it to Kellyanne.

Boy if they do that, I'm sure as hell tuning out. Listening to her makes my BP go up. Remember those Xmas gifts little girls used to get were they pulled a string and the doll talked?.....Hmmm, I think just  got a marketing idea. Arkansas here I go.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2017, 12:29:34 pm
Boy if they do that, I'm sure as hell tuning out. Listening to her makes my BP go up. Remember those Xmas gifts little girls used to get were they pulled a string and the doll talked?.....Hmmm, I think just  got a marketing idea. Arkansas here I go.

I'm wondering how many reporters wouldn't show up. If they did, i would be for entertainment, not information.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 16, 2017, 12:45:28 pm
So now, Trump may have given away classified information (regarding ISIS terrorist activities) to the Russians.

First a few half-hearted denials from Trump surrogates that "it didn't happen", then statements (from Drumph himself) that he had a "right" to do so and that it was good thing because "Russia is fighting ISIS too".

So many problems:
- It is true... the president has the right to declassify documents, but generally that is only done after careful consideration and consultation with staff.. Trump just (more or less) blurted it out.

- Even if Trump had the legal authority to declassify information, that information came from a 3rd party, that trusted the U.S. to keep it safe. Now that they've found that they can't trust Trump, they may be less forthcoming with information that may help the U.S.  (Yet Trump supporters somehow think Trump will be effective against the terrorsts.)

- Despite what Trump might think/claim, Russia is not our ally. They are more likely to bomb civilians in Syria than they are ISIS.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/15/report_president_trump_leaked_highly_classified_information_to_russian_officials.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 17, 2017, 12:37:04 pm
Even better is Trump's pretty much definitive obstruction of justice.  This can't last too much longer.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 17, 2017, 02:08:52 pm
Even better is Trump's pretty much definitive obstruction of justice.
Are you referring to the memo that Comey wrote, saying that Trump asked him to stop the investigation into Flynn?

Or are you referring to Trump's statement about "releasing tapes" (that some see as a veiled threat to Comey)?
Quote
This can't last too much longer.
Actually yes it can.

While the occasional republican have made the occasional "Bad Trump" comment, overall the republicans have shown an almost complete lack of morality as of late, and are only interested in maintaining power. (Just look at Devin Nunes, who is supposedly someone responsible for investigating Trump wrong-doing, but seemed to be more interested in providing political interference, and investigating the bogus wiretap claim.) So while you may get a few republican congressmen complaining about some of Trump's actions, they won't make any effort to actually stop him (through impeachment or other means), because, well, he's a fellow Republican who can help ensure tax cuts to the wealthy.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 17, 2017, 02:51:43 pm
Are you referring to the memo that Comey wrote, saying that Trump asked him to stop the investigation into Flynn?

Or are you referring to Trump's statement about "releasing tapes" (that some see as a veiled threat to Comey)?

Take your pick.  I hadn't even thought of the second case. 

Quote
Actually yes it can.

I was actually thinking that we could yet see him facing some kind of criminal charges.  I'll change what I said from this can't go on much longer to this has gone on long enough.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 17, 2017, 07:41:13 pm

I was actually thinking that we could yet see him facing some kind of criminal charges. 

We could but only after he is impeached.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 17, 2017, 08:05:40 pm
We could but only after he is impeached.

Yeah, it's really stupid that the President is basically above the law in all matters.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 17, 2017, 09:04:17 pm
Yeah, it's really stupid that the President is basically above the law in all matters.

It must be difficult to be an American currently, whether you voted for Trump or not, to see your government essentially come to a halt due to nothing more than obvious incompetence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 18, 2017, 09:37:24 am
Comey to testify in public!

Special prosecutor appointed!

Shit has gotten real.

It is getting to the point where Republicans in the senate and house of reps are going to have to decide whether continuing to support El Trumpo will kill their own careers.  Some-- those outside the Deep South, at least-- may decide to jump off the Trumptanic before it hits the iceberg.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on May 18, 2017, 07:00:55 pm
It was also revealed today that the investigation has turned into a criminal investigation.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 18, 2017, 10:09:20 pm
And also that Michael Flynn does not intend to honor the subpoenas issued to him.

I can only imagine that we're going to see a white Ford Bronco low-speed chase on the DC Beltway before long.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 19, 2017, 02:36:09 pm
Apparently, the investigation has now turned to a very close current aide to Donald Trump.  it's also reported that Trump told the Russians that getting rid of the nut job FBI director eased a great pressure.  The White House does not dispute this account.  Things are moving very quickly.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on May 19, 2017, 05:19:25 pm
Does.the States have extradition agreement with Saudi Arabia?   

Just kidding, I don't think he can be arrested can he?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 23, 2017, 11:16:30 am
Apparently, the investigation has now turned to a very close current aide to Donald Trump. 
I think the 'person of interest' is Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner.

Kushner, who seems to be given every job possible in the white house (including redesigning government, arranging visits by foreign leaders, bringing peace to the middle east), despite the fact that:
- His education is suspect (he was a poor high school student and might have only gotten into Harvard thanks to bribes from his parents)
- His business qualifications may be just as bad as Trump's, with him paying millions more for a property on Fifth Ave. New York than it was worth. (Possibly resulting in Kushner talking to Russian banks to help keep the business afloat.)

However, he does make good Subway sandwiches. (Or is that the other Jared?)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jared-kushner-russia-investigation-trump-song-in-law-probe-person-interest-a7745916.html

Quote
it's also reported that Trump told the Russians that getting rid of the nut job FBI director eased a great pressure.  The White House does not dispute this account.
He also asked other people in the intelligence committee to help end the investigation into the Trump-Russian ties.

http://www.npr.org/2017/05/22/529586885/report-trump-asked-intel-heads-to-push-back-on-fbi-russia-probe
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 23, 2017, 06:34:30 pm
But he visited the wall - that's something, right?  Right?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 23, 2017, 07:59:06 pm
But he visited the wall - that's something, right?  Right?

He did, and I have to wonder as to the contents of his prayer there. "Please don't let Comey agree to testify, especially in open court, please don't let Flynn take the fifth, and Puhlease don't let Brennan tell on me". I reckon that's all he had time for.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 24, 2017, 10:36:55 am
He did, and I have to wonder as to the contents of his prayer there. "Please don't let Comey agree to testify, especially in open court, please don't let Flynn take the fifth, and Puhlease don't let Brennan tell on me". I reckon that's all he had time for.
Flynn taking the fifth is an embarrassing (given previous comments by Trump about how "pleading the fifth means you're guilty"), but I think it would probably be worse for Trump if Flynn actually did talk. "Yeah, I colluded with the Russians. And told Trump about it. He said 'good work'."

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 24, 2017, 09:24:34 pm
It appears that Trump supporters honestly don't give a shit about anything their big orange hero does, and will say anything to make excuses for him, even if it directly contradicts the stuff he said during the campaign.

Hillary was a giant hypocrite for claiming to be a feminist while accepting charitable contributions from countries where women are treated like slaves. But now that Ivanka is accepting charitable contributions from countries where women are treated like slaves, she's a big hero who women should applaud.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 25, 2017, 08:23:38 am
The UK has stopped sharing police intelligence about the Manchester bombing with the US after leaks.  I'm not sure whose fault it is, but as they say, it stops at the top.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 25, 2017, 08:36:36 am
I don't see how you can blame that one on Trump...

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on May 25, 2017, 10:45:47 am
I don't see how you can blame that one on Trump...
"I love Wikileaks"
- Donald Trump

But, Trump has definitely run a very loose ship.... His own security breaches don't set a very good example for others in the government, and he has been very foolish in 1) firing many in the government who didn't need to be fired, 2) leaving many positions vacant, or filling them with people who are not competent, and 3) insulting many in the law enforcement/intelligence community. When you do those sorts of things, the chance of problems like this happening probably increases.

OK, its possible that the leak had nothing to do with Trump. Its possible that it might have happened even if Hillary had become president. However, if that is true, I certainly have some feelings of schadenfreude (a german word meaning "pleasure in the misfortune of others"). After years of Trump, other republicans and their supporters pinning anything and everything on Obama or Hillary (regardless of how untrue the accusations were), seeing Trump get blamed for things that may not be his fault seems like rather fair turnabout.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 25, 2017, 09:57:34 pm
I don't see how you can blame that one on Trump...

 -k

How about today, when he pushed the leader of NATOs newest country out of the way so he could be in the front row for the family photo?  Can I blame him for that?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 26, 2017, 09:21:03 am
Well, ok. I'll give you that one.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on May 26, 2017, 10:40:07 am
How about today, when he pushed the leader of NATOs newest country out of the way so he could be in the front row for the family photo?  Can I blame him for that?

Having been pushed around by a couple of school yard bully's in my day, the image you speak of made me shudder, and so completely confirmed my hunch about his true character. Recall his "candid" conversation about what you can do to women when you're "a star"? Pardon me while I go and spit!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on May 26, 2017, 01:54:05 pm
I was so mad when I saw that clip.  The way he stood there arrogantly fixing his coat after and pouting.  Grrr, he's so classless.

Did anyone catch the Macron swerve today?  He's walking toward Trump and near the end Trump puts both palms out to greet him and Macron swerves away toward Merkel and hugs her and shook a bunch of other hands before acknowledging Trump.  Then they got into hand shake wrestle number two.

I'm loving Macron's style.  He's the one who tweeted the video too, haha.  Loved it.

If Trudeau wasn't so scared of Trump, I bet he'd be similar.   

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on May 26, 2017, 08:38:59 pm
He is a little, graceless man.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on May 27, 2017, 10:27:20 am
I think it's hilarious that his supporters seem convinced that he's an "alpha".

An alpha man wouldn't need to try to impress Billy Bush by talking about what a big star he is.
An alpha man wouldn't need to try to impress Howard Stern by talking about how being the boss of the beauty pageant means he can walk in on the girls while he's changing.
An alpha man wouldn't need to try to impress Russian officials by showing them what cool intel he gets now that he's president.
An alpha man wouldn't need to try to tell Marco Rubio that his penis is very large.
An alpha man wouldn't worry himself with the claim that his hands are tiny.
An alpha man wouldn't explode with rage that people pointed out the size of his inauguration crowd.
 ...etc.

He's not an alpha man.  He's an insecure child.  He was never good enough for daddy, and has spent his whole life trying to make up for it. He craves adulation and respect and validation.  An alpha man wouldn't be so dependent on the opinion of others for validation.

My thoughts on the subject are expressed concisely by Tywin Lannister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sJY7BTIuPY


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on May 27, 2017, 08:41:15 pm
If Trudeau wasn't so scared of Trump, I bet he'd be similar.

It's not fear, it's Trudeau's style.  He knows he has to work with him, so he's going to.  It's why he's managed to tame him in a way that none of the others in the group can (with the possible exception of Abe - Merkel doesn't have to tame him, so she doesn't even try).
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on May 28, 2017, 05:29:59 pm
It's not fear, it's Trudeau's style.  He knows he has to work with him, so he's going to.  It's why he's managed to tame him in a way that none of the others in the group can (with the possible exception of Abe - Merkel doesn't have to tame him, so she doesn't even try).

"He knows he has to work" with him indeed, but with a trade deficit and Trump and his threats of ripping up NAFTA, the ball in in Trump's court and fear does play a role in the Trudeau's knowledge that he has to work with Trump.

In any case, I wasn't criticizing Trudeau.  All I meant, is that I wish he were in a better position to troll Trump the way Macron did (he is PET's son, after all).

But he can't.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on June 01, 2017, 01:26:23 pm
You know, maybe we've been too hard on Trump. We keep saying how incompetent he is and how he isn't getting anything done. But in reality, there are ways he is far exceeding the record of Obama...

From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-house-staff-waivers-ethics_us_592f9f45e4b0540ffc8473c6?utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&utm_source=main_fb&utm_medium=facebook&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063
President Donald Trump has granted ethics waivers to at least 17 of his top White House aides...The 17 senior White House appointees were all granted waivers in the past four months. His predecessor, Barack Obama, granted that same number of waivers to his top staff over the course of his eight years in office.

See? Trump really is better than Obama!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on June 01, 2017, 02:25:27 pm
But shouldn't the measuring stick really be what Republicans (and their little helpers who stupidly thought Clinton was morally equivalent because, emails! or Bill is a rapist!) think Hillary would have done by now?

Surely she would have had even more ethics waivers and more emails! and more private servers! And Bill would have had more "sexual conquests" as First Man!

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on June 01, 2017, 07:22:11 pm
The irony is that Trump was going to assign a "special prosecutor" to look into Hillary. Reality is that the first special prosecutor under his administration is looking into him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on June 07, 2017, 03:37:15 pm
And today's Trump teaching is: How to piss off 2 allies at the same time.

So, several Gulf countries (lead by Saudi Arabia) have moved to isolate Qatar, under accusations that it has supported terrorist organizations. Trump later jumped into the fray and took credit for the move. (Lets ignore for a moment the strangeness of siding with Saudi Arabia, a country where until recently women couldn't drive, in a fight against Qatar over extremism.)

So what's wrong with that?

- It pisses off the Saudis, since now they look like puppets of the U.S.

- It pisses off Qatar, a country that is currently hosting a very important air base (useful in dealing with conflicts in Syria/Iraq and Afghanistan.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/06/donald-trump-qatar-tweets-us-diplomatic-damage
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on June 08, 2017, 02:00:26 pm
All eyes on Comey. 

I'm so pessimistic that Republicans will do the right thing I'm not very hopeful.  Paul Ryan's excuses today were a perfect example of how I think the rest of the Republicans will treat the matter.

Maybe but I'm just bitter but the fact that 34% of Americans even support Trump in spite of the shenanigans doesn't bode well with me.  Anyone here think anything will come of Comey's testimony?

I say tomorrow it'll be another crazy tweet and America's ADD will shift to something new.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on June 09, 2017, 12:24:17 pm
I want royalties for Comey re-iterating my thread title from months ago on MLW: "Trump is a lying liar who lies."
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on June 17, 2017, 12:05:05 pm
So last week Trump met with Republican senators who are working on the Trumpcare bill.  According to sources, he told the senators that the version of the bill passed by Congress is "mean, mean, mean", "cold hearted", and "a son of a bitch."  He encouraged them to make a bill that's "generous, kind, with heart".

...ummm... I feel kind of uncomfortable saying this, but yay Trump?

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/trump-throws-his-own-health-care-plan-under-the-bus

The Republicans in congress are not terribly happy.  They've taken a lot of heat over the bill that passed in the House of Representatives.  They did their best to sell it to their constituents.  And they feel like they've been stabbed in the back to have the President come out and excoriate their bill.

http://www.businessinsider.com/house-gop-trump-ahca-mean-health-care-2017-6

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on June 19, 2017, 12:23:04 pm
So last week Trump met with Republican senators who are working on the Trumpcare bill.  According to sources, he told the senators that the version of the bill passed by Congress is "mean, mean, mean", "cold hearted", and "a son of a bitch."  He encouraged them to make a bill that's "generous, kind, with heart".

...ummm... I feel kind of uncomfortable saying this, but yay Trump?
I'm actually kind of disappointed.

What I want is for Trump and the republicans to follow through on each and every one of their campaign promises, including repealing and replacing Obamacare. Why? Because so many of their supporters bought into a load of bunk about Trump "fixing" health care (when in reality he had no idea what he was doing). And statistically Trump supporters are more reliant on Obamacare than Democrat supporters. Like the ex-coal miners who voted for Trump because he "promised to bring coal mining jobs back" (hint: he won't) but rely on Obamacare for insurance.

I want Trump supporters to hurt, and hurt bad. I want to see the coal miners with black-lung who can only get treatment thanks to Obamacare to see their insurance premiums spike, or get cancelled altogether as the republicans "fix" health care.

Maybe then, it will get through to them: Voting in a racist orangutan who lies constantly and makes promises that have no chance of being fulfilled is a bad idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/12/27/these-coal-country-voters-backed-trump-now-theyre-worried-about-losing-obamacare/?utm_term=.bcc651313b0f
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on June 27, 2017, 07:37:05 pm
So the guy who cries "Fake News!" has been found out: 

Fake Time magazine covers hanging at his golf courses:  https://t.co/GbabQP5hXQ

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on June 29, 2017, 12:07:59 pm
I'm actually kind of disappointed.

What I want is for Trump and the republicans to follow through on each and every one of their campaign promises, including repealing and replacing Obamacare. Why? Because so many of their supporters bought into a load of bunk about Trump "fixing" health care (when in reality he had no idea what he was doing).

Whatever happened to HIS plan for health care? He claimed he had one, and that it would somehow warp space and time by providing better health care coverage for less money. Still waiting for HIS plan to defeat ISIS, too, since he said he knew more than the generals.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on June 29, 2017, 01:19:54 pm
Whatever happened to HIS plan for health care? He claimed he had one, and that it would somehow warp space and time by providing better health care coverage for less money.
"Nobody knew health care could be so complicated"
- Donald Drumph, President of the U.S. and racist orangutan-in-chief

Quote
Still waiting for HIS plan to defeat ISIS, too, since he said he knew more than the generals.
He had a plan... fire all the generals, and ask them to come up with a plan to defeat ISIS within a month of his inauguration.

Or was that ask them for a plan, then fire them? I can never remember.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/trumpometer/promise/1375/develop-plan-defeat-isis-30-days/
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/donald-trump-plan-isis_us_57d0b462e4b06a74c9f28ecd
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on June 29, 2017, 01:33:37 pm
Every day I grow more disgusted with this man child, and feel more contemptuous of his ignorance, his pettiness and lack of class. His election and continued support from a large segment of the population makes me call into question the value of democracy itself. Maybe we need to restrict it through IQ tests, information quizzes that have to be passed, elementary knowledge of basic government structure, perhaps. Although, come to think of it these are all tests Trump would fail. So maybe we should make the candidates pass the tests instead of the voters. Would be cheaper to administer them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on June 29, 2017, 02:17:39 pm
It's so true isn't it.  This morning's tweets about Mika Brzezinski was so immature and perfect example of how a bully behaves.

As much as I dislike George Bush, he didn't disrespect the office of the POTUS like Trump is doing.  I just shake my head in disbelief day after day.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 29, 2017, 02:29:57 pm
Also with Bush, you could debate his policies with reasonably intelligent people. I can't bother to debate with Trump supporters because it's like shooting fish in a barrel and they're too stupid to realize they're getting shot.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on June 30, 2017, 10:10:13 pm
If Mitt Romney, or Paul Ryan, or Mike Pence were President right now, you could have reasonable discussions based on their policies and their ideologies.

With Trump, the Trumptards will defend his idiocy regardless of what pholosophical or ideological underpinnings it has. it's no longer a matter of political discourse, it's just a matter of team sports. TRUMP NAY-SHAWWWWN--- ya-yah-YAAAAAHH!!!

Trump is the idol of idiot-worshippers.   By their fruits you shall know them."  Matthew 7:16

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 01, 2017, 06:39:22 pm
Trump is the idol of idiot-worshippers.   By their fruits you shall know them."  Matthew 7:16

 -k

The irony is you've just come up with one more bible quote than Trump could manage, and I doubt you're a particularly observant Christian.
Bill Maher said that if the election proved one thing it proved the complete hypocrisy of the evangelical Christian movement in the US, and the so-called Christian right. They had no problem enthusiastically supporting a man who has lived in his life in opposition to everything Jesus Christ allegedly stands for, a serial adulterer who curses like a sailor in public, an avowed hedonist who knows nothing about the bible and doesn't belong to a church, and whose public behavior was and remains the antithesis of Christian.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on July 06, 2017, 10:30:13 am
Every day I grow more disgusted with this man child, and feel more contemptuous of his ignorance, his pettiness and lack of class. His election and continued support from a large segment of the population makes me call into question the value of democracy itself. Maybe we need to restrict it through IQ tests, information quizzes that have to be passed, elementary knowledge of basic government structure, perhaps. Although, come to think of it these are all tests Trump would fail. So maybe we should make the candidates pass the tests instead of the voters. Would be cheaper to administer them.
You would never have a conservative government again. Universities, after all, are just liberal training centres, aren't they? Judges, professors, teachers, college graduates of all sorts. Filthy communists.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 07, 2017, 04:52:23 pm
You would never have a conservative government again. Universities, after all, are just liberal training centres, aren't they? Judges, professors, teachers, college graduates of all sorts. Filthy communists.

People who pay taxes tend to like conservative governments which pay for what needs to be paid for, not everything under the sun, and try to keep the budget in check. Conservatives like dull, basic government which keeps the lights on and the roads cleared and the costs low. They're not so fond of liberal governments which believe any problem is a problem the government needs to address, and that anyone who is poor for whatever reason should be compensated by taking money from those who are not.

Why is it that anyone who is mildly to the right of centre is considered immoral but anyone far, far to the left, including Communists, is fine?

Note: Trump is not a conservative of any sort, nor are most of those in the Republican party leadership.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 07, 2017, 10:11:28 pm
I don't think conservatism is inherently anti-intellectual, it's just that current "conservative" parties seem to have adopted anti-intellectualism as a platform.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 08, 2017, 05:47:46 am
I don't think conservatism is inherently anti-intellectual, it's just that current "conservative" parties seem to have adopted anti-intellectualism as a platform.
 

Not in Canada, though.  They have flirted with it, and Harper and Leech patronize the brainless "I hate brown people" types as much as Trudeau patronizes the "I love brow people" types.

Our parties seem to compromise, or alternately steal from each other, more than the American ones.  Balanced budgets are a thing that Liberals try for and even the NDP was touting it last federal election, ie. lowered spending.

In the US, you have these ridiculous purity tests that are driven by media outlets who try to out-nutbar each other.  This used to happen on the far-left too, but I don't have any examples.

There is a golden path ahead to any party that figures out how to restructure the machine of democracy and government to lower overhead and pass the savings onto its citizens in the form of greater benefits for the poor, and lower taxes for middle and upper income earners.  This was ostensibly what Trump was supposed to do, but he has too many blockers to success.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 08, 2017, 10:41:20 am
I don't think conservatism is inherently anti-intellectual, it's just that current "conservative" parties seem to have adopted anti-intellectualism as a platform.

 -k

Well, exclude the Republicans since they're not conservative. I don't think the Canadian Conservatives support anti-intellectualism. But remember, much of today's university environment is profoundly tilted towards the Left and far Left. Left wing ideology infests academia. It's no small wonder so many conservatives roll their eyes towards the ranting of ivory tower academics with their unworkable theories which ignore human realities and motivations.

The belief the Tories under Harper were anti-intellectual largely came from them ignoring or suppressing activist scientists who were agitating for climate change resolutions. I understood their motivation in ignoring the climate-science types because, to my mind, no reasonable solutions had been proposed to the stated issue. And the Harper Conservatives were not exactly the types to go in for large, costly, complicated and uncertain programs, especially if they were controversial - which is why they never did much of anything about health care, among other topics.

And I don't think the Liberals actions on climate change is in any way a regard or respect for science so much as embracing whatever is fashionably on the Left and an absolute disinterest in how much it will all cost.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 08, 2017, 10:45:35 am
They have flirted with it, and Harper and Leech patronize the brainless "I hate brown people" types as much as Trudeau patronizes the "I love brow people" types.

I'm curious about the parsing of this sentence. If the "I hate brown people" are brainless why aren't the "I love brown people" also brainless?

I also, of course, disagree that either Harper or Leech ever patronized the "I hate brown people" types. It is entirely acceptable to believe in Canadian values and culture and be wary of flooding it with masses of people who embrace none of it (see the Khadrs as poster children) just as it is entirely acceptable to not care a whit about Canadian values and culture and revel in masses of newcomers with wildly different beliefs. Neither has a moral component, despite how much the Left tries to attach one.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 09, 2017, 02:27:00 pm
I'm curious about the parsing of this sentence. If the "I hate brown people" are brainless why aren't the "I love brown people" also brainless?

Why do you think they're not ?

The point is that it's reactionary and brainless politics, yes on both sides.
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on July 10, 2017, 08:50:36 am
Trump's son, Trump's son-in-law, and Trump's campaign manager met with a Russian lawyer in Trump Tower to talk about Trump's campaign...but Trump knew nothing about it? Riiiight.

The meeting (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/politics/trump-russia-kushner-manafort.html)

The denial (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-trump-whitehouse-idUSKBN19U0YU)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on July 10, 2017, 01:43:23 pm
I don't think the Canadian Conservatives support anti-intellectualism. But remember, much of today's university environment is profoundly tilted towards the Left and far Left. Left wing ideology infests academia. It's no small wonder so many conservatives roll their eyes towards the ranting of ivory tower academics with their unworkable theories which ignore human realities and motivations.


Got it. So Canadian Conservatives aren't anti-intellectualism, they just roll their eyes at anything academia has to say because the theories are rubbish. 

If that's not being anti-intellectual, I'm very curious what you think is.  Maybe you set the boundaries at burning books and throwing professors in jail?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on July 10, 2017, 07:28:29 pm
The trump campaign attempted to collude with Russia to win the election.   A serious no-no. 

Quote
Richard Painter, a former ethics lawyer for President George W. Bush and a frequent Trump critic, said doing so "borders on treason."
. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/10/why-donald-trump-jr-s-meeting-with-a-russian-lawyer-matters.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 11, 2017, 03:00:01 pm
Got it. So Canadian Conservatives aren't anti-intellectualism, they just roll their eyes at anything academia has to say because the theories are rubbish. 

If that's not being anti-intellectual, I'm very curious what you think is.  Maybe you set the boundaries at burning books and throwing professors in jail?

You presume the people in academia are intellectuals. I don't. I've been there, met them, spoken to them. A lot of them are banal bureaucrats who got through classes by rote memorization and stay in university because they could never succeed in the outside world and because they can't be fired. You're also ignoring how ideological many are, and their own willingness to ignore logic, evidence and information in pursuit of their noble ideals. You think the Conservative leadership - all of whom are university graduates, btw, should bow before a bunch of tenured left wing professors and meekly accept their pronouncements?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 11, 2017, 03:01:22 pm
The trump campaign attempted to collude with Russia to win the election.   A serious no-no. 
. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/10/why-donald-trump-jr-s-meeting-with-a-russian-lawyer-matters.html

You realize that even if there is incontrovertible evidence, freely admitted by Donald Trump himself, that he and his entire campaign colluded with the Russians, arranged for the hacking, took money from them, and promised Russia things if they got elected, 95% of Trump supporters would just shrug it off without a second thought, right?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 11, 2017, 03:16:02 pm
You presume the people in academia are intellectuals.

You seem to presume intellectual = intelligent.  I don't.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 11, 2017, 03:17:08 pm
  95% of Trump supporters would just shrug it off without a second thought, right?

At some point, the brutal refrain of negative news will chip away at their psyches, I firmly believe.  Especially, this will happen if the impact of the whole clown show makes it impossible to achieve his promises, which are impossible anyway. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 12, 2017, 11:17:17 am
At some point, the brutal refrain of negative news will chip away at their psyches, I firmly believe.  Especially, this will happen if the impact of the whole clown show makes it impossible to achieve his promises, which are impossible anyway.
Actually if anything his inability to achieve is promises are actually HELPING him.

Trump for example promised to replace Obamacare. But many Trump supporters depend on its coverage. So the longer he goes without replacing Obamacare the better off he'll be.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 15, 2017, 09:07:28 pm
Sigh

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4027315/donald-trump-begs-theresa-may-to-fix-a-warm-welcome-for-his-state-visit-and-says-he-wont-fix-a-date-for-it-until-he-knows-hes-going-to-get-a-better-reception/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on July 19, 2017, 07:43:29 pm
Trump is suddenly a fan of NAFTA:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3605878/trump-asked-canada-to-drop-duties-on-internet-imports-under-nafta-canadians-should-cheer-say-experts/?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=MostPopular&utm_campaign=2014
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 21, 2017, 09:19:57 am
Trump is suddenly a fan of NAFTA:

Well of course. He was never going to tear it up. All along this has been just a negotiating tactic. It's from Business For Dummies. "I'm gonna tear it up. It's a bad bad deal. I'm tearing it up. We got schlonged real bad on this deal. We gotta get rid of this. Such a bad deal. You wouldn't believe it, it's so bad.  ....   well, I might not tear it up, but we need changes or I'm tearing it up."


As for the contents of the link, though, I wholeheartedly agree.  The Canadian government thinks free trade is great for Canadian companies, but not for Canadian citizens.  The $20 "de minimis" threshold is the chintziest in the entire world.  This has been pointed out numerous times to the government, and the government has no interest in changing it, either because they like collecting taxes or because they're trying to protect Canadian brick-and-mortar retailers.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 21, 2017, 09:23:01 am
Meanwhile, as Robert Mueller requests information from Deutsche Bank, Trump is asking people about his powers of pardon. Can he pardon his family? Can he pardon himself? This is allegedly what he's asking.

Deutsche Bank is notorious for laundering money from Russia, coincidentally.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 21, 2017, 09:40:41 am
Don't like to comment so much on these clowns but the NYT interview seems to have been unplanned, and now another lead lawyer has quit.

I read that he described the WH as 'unbelievable' in how they run things.  I doubt whatever they did is as bad as the response, ie. Obstruction of Justice
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on July 21, 2017, 10:32:27 pm
Jeff Sessions has been found to have lied under oath about meeting with Russians....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/07/21/mueller-expands-inquiry-into-trump-business-transactions/RunU3sCKgzkElhE7kL6iUP/story.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on July 22, 2017, 12:51:12 am
At this point, I think even Trump is surprised he's not impeached.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on July 22, 2017, 10:53:05 am
Trump announced today that he has absolute power to pardon anyone incriminated in Mueller's investigation, including himself.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on July 22, 2017, 03:36:53 pm
Trump announced today that he has absolute power to pardon anyone incriminated in Mueller's investigation, including himself.

Will the Republicans in Congress bend over and take a dictatorship, or will they do something about it?

Quote
But frankly, the history isn’t the point. The basic problem with self-pardon is that it would make a mockery of the very idea that the U.S. operates under the rule of law. A president who could self-pardon could violate literally any federal law with impunity, knowing that the only risk was removal from office by impeachment.

We have a name for an elected leader who is outside the law: dictator. And dictatorship is fundamentally inconsistent with the republic established by the Constitution. In fact, it’s a little difficult to think of any single idea that would more grossly violate the rule of law than a president free to break any and every law and then wave a get-out-of-jail-free card.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-21/trump-s-pardoning-himself-would-trash-constitution

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 22, 2017, 05:58:03 pm
Reading World Order by Kissenger now and it's making me think that Trump came around just in time for us to prevent another one later.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 23, 2017, 11:05:35 am
Will the Republicans in Congress bend over and take a dictatorship, or will they do something about it?

I tend to agree with the commentator on MSNBC the other night. Republican leaders have strapped themselves to the mast of the SS Trump, and they won't be doing anything until the water is over their heads. The vast majority of their base still worships him, so principles be damned. They are going wherever he takes the ship.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 23, 2017, 11:10:33 am
If firing Muller doesn't turn them then they are in trouble.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 24, 2017, 07:44:41 pm
Reading World Order by Kissenger now and it's making me think that Trump came around just in time for us to prevent another one later.

Prevent another what later?  Another "world order"?  Another covfefe?

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 24, 2017, 08:17:39 pm
Another covfefe
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 24, 2017, 08:25:24 pm
Make mine a double.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 26, 2017, 12:28:37 am
So the Boy Scouts of America invited the POTUS to speak at their once-per-four-years jamboree, as is their tradition.

And Trump showed up and turned it into a Trump Youth rally. 

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 26, 2017, 06:47:15 am
Last night's speech was also horrifying.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 26, 2017, 10:42:42 am
And now they've actually managed to get enough votes to open up debate on health care in the senate (although it required a return by John McCain post-cancer surgery and a tie-breaking vote by Pence in order to squeak through.) However, things are a mess for the republicans (as certain votes require a 60 vote majority to proceed, and its doubtful that they can muster that.)

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-sets-sights-skinny-repeal-obamacare-tuesday-s-voting-n786296

A few notes:

- this really illustrates how hypocritical the republicans many republicans are... some will complain about the way Trump and the republicans are acting (such as how the way the bill was crafted in secret), but when called upon, most will ignore their claimed principles and follow directions.

- Trump has really been pushing for this, even making threats to republican senators who might have voted against the bill

I really hope the republicans manage to actually repeal Obamacare. Yes, it will be horrible. Yes, millions will be left uninsured (and some may die). But, so many Republican supporters are sticking by Trump because they can't imagine him doing anything bad... having their health insurance disappear might just be a wake up call that "voting has consequences".

Oh, and speaking of insurance, there are hints that Trump doesn't even understand the difference between health insurance and life insurance, as he was making claims that young people could get insured for $12/year.

http://fortune.com/2017/07/20/donald-trump-health-insurance-comments/


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 26, 2017, 11:31:26 am
So the Boy Scouts of America invited the POTUS to speak at their once-per-four-years jamboree, as is their tradition.

And Trump showed up and turned it into a Trump Youth rally. 

 -k

The lack of judgement, maturity and class of this individual continues to surprise me, though nothing he does should surprise me. I can't imagine George Bush making anything like this sort of speech to boy scouts, and I thought he was an idiot!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 26, 2017, 11:34:04 am
Last night's speech was also horrifying.

What's scarier is the rumor he wants to replace Sessions with that lick-spittle sycophant Rudy Giuliani, so he can then fire Rosenstein and then Mueller.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on July 26, 2017, 12:19:09 pm
So the Boy Scouts of America invited the POTUS to speak at their once-per-four-years jamboree, as is their tradition.

And Trump showed up and turned it into a Trump Youth rally. 

 -k
I'm surprised he hasn't come up with a salute that people are supposed to give to him at these rallies yet.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 27, 2017, 01:37:38 pm
Jeff Sessions has been found to have lied under oath about meeting with Russians....
Ironically, Trump has been attacking Sessions for recusing himself from the Russian investigation, and for not prosecuting Hillary Clinton (which, should it be noted, Trump said after the election he had no interest in seeing her jailed.)

There are so many reasons why Sessions should not be attorney general... his past history of racism, his desire to crack down harder on drug laws, etc. Yet he was one of Trump's earliest big-name supporters. And now Trump is attacking him. Just goes to show how much loyalty is worth.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/politics/trump-sessions-tweet/index.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 27, 2017, 09:21:46 pm
and for not prosecuting Hillary Clinton (which, should it be noted, Trump said after the election he had no interest in seeing her jailed.)

you didn't have to be The Amazing Kreskin to anticipate that Trump would start ranting about Hillary again when he needed to distract people from his own troubles.  And the way things are headed, Trump's troubles are just getting worse.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 27, 2017, 09:33:02 pm
And then they hired this guy from Futurama as comms director:
 (https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/en.futurama/images/8/8b/ThatGuy.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090909220403)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 27, 2017, 09:33:38 pm
I did a quick google on Ken Starr regarding another thread, and saw that Starr penned a blistering op-ed about Trump's treatment of Jeff Sessions.  I assume this came about because Starr heard his name mentioned as a potential replacement for Sessions, and wanted to nip that shit in the bud.

Quote
The attorney general is not — and cannot be — the president’s “hockey goalie,” as new White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci described Sessions’s job. In fact, the president isn’t even his client. To the contrary, the attorney general’s client is ultimately “We the People,” and his fidelity has to be not to the president but to the Constitution and other laws of the United States. Indeed, the attorney general’s job, at times, is to tell the president “no” because of the supervening demands of the law. When it comes to dealing with the nation’s top legal officer, you will do well to check your Twitter weapons at the Oval Office door.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kenneth-starr-mr-president-please-cut-it-out/2017/07/26/b9af0c78-723e-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html?utm_term=.3f7d04f79af1


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 27, 2017, 09:44:10 pm
No, this shit show is the worst.  The Senators now have to stay up all night debating a pack of stupidity so they can safe face about their devotion to a lie that breaks Trump's "better healthcare" promise.

This kind of thing leads to coups in other countries.  Merely dysfunctional would be an improvement.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 07:52:48 am
Ok, skinny repeal has died now.  It seems that the Republican healthcare plans are now all dead and they are moving forward on tax reform.

Trump will not own this, of course, and it seems to me that McCain must have been somewhat happy to stick it to him, on some level.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 28, 2017, 09:35:57 am
"Who knew healthcare was so complicated?"


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 28, 2017, 09:37:09 am
Ok, skinny repeal has died now.  It seems that the Republican healthcare plans are now all dead and they are moving forward on tax reform.
But... but... during the election trump said he had a great health care plan! It must be true because Trump would never lie!

Maybe Trump is keeping it secret and will spring it on us later.
Quote
Trump will not own this, of course, and it seems to me that McCain must have been somewhat happy to stick it to him, on some level.
Well, as I said before... it is probably beneficial for Trump, since even many of his supporters rely on Obamacare.

And have to say, McCain came through. Question is whether he voted down the bill because it was a bad bill or just to stick it to Trump.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 28, 2017, 09:40:51 am
Trump marketed himself as the Big Deal guy. The guy who makes deals. Bigly bigly deals. Yuge deals. High energy deals. He's the guy who makes deals! He says "deal" ten times every interview. Deals. Deals. He's all about deals. He (or his ghost writer, at least) wrote "The Art Of The Deal".  He's Mr Deal.

But once again he couldn't seal the deal.

SAD!

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 28, 2017, 09:41:37 am
I did a quick google on Ken Starr regarding another thread, and saw that Starr penned a blistering op-ed about Trump's treatment of Jeff Sessions.  I assume this came about because Starr heard his name mentioned as a potential replacement for Sessions, and wanted to nip that **** in the bud.
I can't understand why Starr wouldn't just jump at the chance to work for the Trump admin. Imagine how exciting it would be, working for a president that demands complete loyalty but will throw you under a bus when it suits him! Imagine the thrill of finding out that the president has made major policy decisions via twitter without consulting you!

It would be like riding a giant roller coaster, but instead of a nice gentle stop at the end you get thrown into a pile of cow dung!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 09:42:52 am
Hard to say.  By the end, the bill they had would have had to go back to Congress anyway.

They bonked the process up so badly it's hard to believe that these are experiences legislators.

The Republicans are now a party torn up from within.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 28, 2017, 09:44:19 am
Trump marketed himself as the Big Deal guy. The guy who makes deals. Bigly bigly deals. Yuge deals. High energy deals. He's the guy who makes deals! He says "deal" ten times every interview. Deals. Deals. He's all about deals. He (or his ghost writer, at least) wrote "The Art Of The Deal".  He's Mr Deal.

But once again he couldn't seal the deal.
I guess its a little different making a deal when you don't have a team of lawyers who can effectively beat up other, less wealthy people.

Quote
SAD!
This is to inform you that the term 'sad' has been trademarked by Donald J. Drumph industries, and you now owe royalties.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 09:46:24 am
My post was in response to the question on McCain's motivation.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 28, 2017, 09:49:38 am
Hard to say.  By the end, the bill they had would have had to go back to Congress anyway.

They bonked the process up so badly it's hard to believe that these are experiences legislators.

The Republicans are now a party torn up from within.
Well, for the better part of the past 8 years, the only thing that the republicans had to run on was "Oppose Obama!". When you build your politics around obstructionism its hard to bring anything useful to the table. And now that Obama (their sole focus) is gone, the have nothing left to do but wander aimlessly.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 10:29:06 am
538 has approval pegged at 38.5% which is down .5%

Doesn't sound like much, but it was at 39.5% for a little while, so this may signal erosion of base support.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on July 28, 2017, 11:30:01 am
538 has approval pegged at 38.5% which is down .5%
At least he's still popular in Russia. You know, the people who helped get him elected.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/u-s-image-suffers-as-publics-around-world-question-trumps-leadership/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on July 28, 2017, 12:11:54 pm
538 has approval pegged at 38.5% which is down .5%

Doesn't sound like much, but it was at 39.5% for a little while, so this may signal erosion of base support.

That's within the margin of error...  so no change.  Don't get excited over a single percent, unless it's a clear trend over time.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on July 28, 2017, 02:08:37 pm
That's within the margin of error...  so no change.  Don't get excited over a single percent, unless it's a clear trend over time.

It's an agregator, so it doesn't really work the same way.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on July 28, 2017, 02:22:36 pm
Hard to say.  By the end, the bill they had would have had to go back to Congress anyway.

They bonked the process up so badly it's hard to believe that these are experiences legislators.

First, they were trying to do the impossible; live up to Trump's idiotic promise for way better health care at a fraction of the price. Second, the advent of the Tea Party put pressure on all Republicans to be as uncompromising as possible with the enemy (Democrats). Any senator/congressman who seemed likely to be congenial or moderate wound up facing well-funded primary challenges from the far right. Further, since most Republican congressmen are in gerrymandered districts a primary challenge is really their only fear of losing their seats. So they all began to embrace the 'hard line' attitude to protect themselves from the Tea party. Now everyone is afraid to compromise. Working with the Democrats is virtually unthinkable. It wouldn't be hard to craft a better national health care plan than Obamacare, but that would require compromise with the Democrats to fix some of the problems. That's now anathema to the Republicans. With such a small majority that means they have to have virtual unanimity on anything to get it through, and that's much harder to achieve in the senate since there isn't any gerrymandering to allow senators to ignore the will of the people with impunity.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 02:44:24 pm
That's within the margin of error...  so no change.  Don't get excited over a single percent, unless it's a clear trend over time.

Two points:

It was only 1/2 of one percent.

I think that it's the third poll showing a drop.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 28, 2017, 04:07:27 pm
Priebus fired.  Shit show goes on.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on July 28, 2017, 06:12:08 pm
It's an agregator, so it doesn't really work the same way.

I realize that...   but its within the margin of error of any poll....  so seeing such a small change is, essentially, meaningless. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 31, 2017, 11:33:25 am
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Rasmussen now has trump under 40% so we're hitting Gerald Ford territory.  The full impact of last week's episode - the healthcare failure, firing Preibus, hiring The Mooch, the Trans ban - will only start to be felt now.

Paradoxically, the only Trump fans in my newsfeed seem to be most pissed off at the Trans ban. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on July 31, 2017, 02:06:51 pm
https://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/339751/after-10-days-the-mooch-is-out-at-white-house-comms-director/

And now.... The Mooch is gone...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on July 31, 2017, 06:58:54 pm


"I gotta be honest, I didn't know him that well when I hired him, I just had a gut feeling, you know? I mean, he wears nice suits, very nice suits. Good haircut, he has those dark aviator sunglasses, I like those a lot.  Fit, good looking, high-energy guy. I like guys like that. High energy, I worked with guys like that in the '80s, we got a lot done in the '80s, we did a lot of deals. Good looking wife, looks a bit like Ivanka, very attractive.  So I figured he'd be a good fit. Then he comes in and takes charge. Gets rid of Spicer, gets rid of Rince, I like that, very take charge, very high energy, lots of action.  And he did the interview with the New Yorker, talked about a lot of things, very candid, very good words, lots of good words. Very good interview. And he divorced his wife and missed the birth of his baby so that he could come be with me in Washington. That's the kind of dedication I need. That's my kind of guy.  But then I heard he gave an interview where he told people I sink 3 foot putts.  And I said what?  What is going on? And I called him up, and I said Tony! What is going on? And he said 3 foot putts. And I said No No No No No. 3 foot putts? Are you freaking kidding me, Tony? Anybody can sink 3 foot putts, Tony. You make it sound like I'm some average schmoe at the mini-golf course. I can't have you going around saying stuff like that about me. I can't have that. Tony... you're fired."

 -Trump comments on the firing of The Mooch. As I imagine it, at least. That's how it played out in my head.  I'm sure the official version is a little different, but I'm sure the truth is closer to what I wrote.




 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 01, 2017, 11:17:14 am
Well, for the better part of the past 8 years, the only thing that the republicans had to run on was "Oppose Obama!". When you build your politics around obstructionism its hard to bring anything useful to the table. And now that Obama (their sole focus) is gone, the have nothing left to do but wander aimlessly.
It looks like one republican senator might agree with me...


Jeff Flake (from: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/31/my-party-is-in-denial-about-donald-trump-215442)
...we conservatives mocked Barack Obama’s failure to deliver on his pledge to change the tone in Washington even as we worked to assist with that failure. It was we conservatives who, upon Obama’s election, stated that our No. 1 priority was not advancing a conservative policy agenda but making Obama a one-term president...It was we conservatives who were largely silent when the most egregious and sustained attacks on Obama’s legitimacy were leveled by marginal figures who would later be embraced and legitimized by far too many of us. It was we conservatives who rightly and robustly asserted our constitutional prerogatives as a co-equal branch of government when a Democrat was in the White House but who, despite solemn vows to do the same in the event of a Trump presidency, have maintained an unnerving silence as instability has ensued. To carry on in the spring of 2017 as if what was happening was anything approaching normalcy required a determined suspension of critical faculties.

It should be pointed out... right now, Flake's words just seem be be empty rhetoric. He is paying lip service when he criticizes Republican's obstructionism, but it should be pointed out that he has made little attempt to actually take action. He seemed to have no problem having Gorsuch confirmed as supreme court nominee (even though his nomination came about as a result of the republican tactics that he is condemning.) And more recently he voted for the Republican health care plan. (Had he truly been troubled by Republican tactics, he should have stood with McCain and voted it down, giving a message to Republican leadership "I cannot support partisan backroom deals".)

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 02, 2017, 01:32:52 pm
I realize that...   but its within the margin of error of any poll....  so seeing such a small change is, essentially, meaningless.
That's not the way statistics work. If you have repeated independent samples from several pollsters showing the same thing, it's far more likely that's correct. Margin of error only pertains to any given poll by itself, not between polls in aggregate.

Essentially by aggregating the polls, you're putting together multiple independent samples to create a larger sample. The MoE for the aggregate would be on a much larger sample size and therefore be a lot smaller.

In other words, if a bunch of polls show the same thing, they're probably right.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 02, 2017, 01:34:04 pm
From my Uni days, there is an issue with averaging polls too.  But I think it's ok here.  538 weights them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 03, 2017, 06:47:46 am
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

The 538 has Trump at 37% approval now, with the latest poll showing 35%.

My theory is that his rockbed supporters only listen to each other, and that as some of them defect they will convince others.  My target approval for rock bottom is 26%, which is the percentage of Americans who believe the sun orbits the earth.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 03, 2017, 09:06:23 am
Susan Huckabee-Sanders admitted that it was totally untrue that Trump received phone calls from the Boy Scouts president congratulating him on his speech or from the president of Mexico congratulating him for security of the border.

But she insists he wasn't lying.  I am not sure how she can square that circle, but she's Mike Huckabee's little girl so she has no doubt been raised from infancy to accept contradictions without complaint.

Yep.

Also, her eyes don't point the same direction. One eye points this way, the other one points that way.



Oh by the way it's also been confirmed by Huckabee that Trump did indeed dictate Trump Jr's statement regarding the discussions with the Russians.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 03, 2017, 12:34:03 pm
Just a reminder - Trump is not your boy or mine.  I'll let the boy scout President slide, because, well, it's technically correct.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 03, 2017, 02:28:37 pm
Susan Huckabee-Sanders admitted that it was totally untrue that Trump received phone calls from the Boy Scouts president congratulating him on his speech or from the president of Mexico congratulating him for security of the border.
Speaking of the border...

Another leaked phone conversation between Trump and the Mexican president features Trump begging the mexican president not to say "Mexico won't pay for the wall".

From: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-mexican-president-stop-pay-wall/story?id=49009884
Pena Nieto said. “My position has been and will continue to be very firm saying that Mexico cannot pay for that wall." Trump responded,  “But you cannot say that to the press. The press is going to go with that and I cannot live with that. You cannot say that to the press because I cannot negotiate under those circumstances.” He went on, “But the fact is we are both in a little bit of a political bind because I have to have Mexico pay for the wall – I have to.” He suggested that both he and Pena Nieto publicly say they're still determining who will pay for the wall. He then threatened, "If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that."

Trump, master deal negotiator.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 03, 2017, 03:32:54 pm
Just a reminder - Trump is not your boy or mine.  I'll let the boy scout President slide, because, well, it's technically correct.

I have no idea what this is about or means...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 03, 2017, 03:49:23 pm
I have no idea what this is about or means...

I already edited the post in question.  No harm, no foul - just a friendly warning.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 04, 2017, 05:48:27 pm
Susan Huckabee-Sanders
 -k
Sarah Huckabee-Sanders
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 04, 2017, 06:56:14 pm
Sarah Huckabee-Sanders

Susan, Sarah, whatever. Doesn't matter. In a few months she'll be polishing up her resume.  Perhaps she can go work for the "local milk people" that Trump was talking about.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 04, 2017, 09:17:51 pm
One of my few rules - don't insult the public figures by changing their names. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 04, 2017, 09:23:00 pm
Pena Nieto said. “My position has been and will continue to be very firm saying that Mexico cannot pay for that wall." Trump responded,  “But you cannot say that to the press. The press is going to go with that and I cannot live with that. You cannot say that to the press because I cannot negotiate under those circumstances.” He went on, “But the fact is we are both in a little bit of a political bind because I have to have Mexico pay for the wall – I have to.” He suggested that both he and Pena Nieto publicly say they're still determining who will pay for the wall. He then threatened, "If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that."

Translation: "Listen, Pedro, I said a lot of very stupid things during the campaign, but play along with me so that I don't look dumb."

The idea that Mr Pena-Nieto owes Trump any favors after all the crap Trump said about Mexicans during the past 2 years is laughable. So Trump-like.

Trump, master deal negotiator.


"I'm gonna tear up NAFTA! ...   ...  well, maybe I won't tear it up if you guys make bigly bigly concessions."

The Trumpcare negotiations were especially masterful. I liked the part where he said he'd punish Alaska if Lisa Murkowski voted against the bill in the senate.  Murkowski just won reelection for 6 more years.  The election before, the Tea Party Republicans "primaried" Murkowski and she still won the senate seat... as a write-in candidate. That's crazy!  Trump will be in jail before Murkowski has to run for election again. I doubt she's scared of him.  Trump mocked Obama for not being able to "make bigly bigly deals" to get bills through the House of Representatives and the Senate.  Trump has a majority in both and he can't get bigly bigly deals done either.  At least Obama got his healthcare bill through the House and the Senate when the Democrats had both.

And now these new transcripts... hanging up on the PM of Australia, pleading with the President of Mexico to play along... threatening to stop taking his calls if he doesn't play along... it's SAD and PATHETIC. And also hilarious.

I assume he also has other tremendous high-energy negotiating tools in his arsenal, like threatening to block people on Twitter or Unfriend them on Facebook.

The one negotiating tool he has that we know works is to threaten to declare bankruptcy to strong-arm contractors into accepting partial payment for work they did on his shitty projects. Except everybody knows the US isn't going to declare bankruptcy to welsh on its debts so that's not going to be a super-strong tactic in the international arena.

But the real comedy from the leaked transcripts was his comments to Malcolm Turnbull that the refugees are bad people and they're in prison and that they're not going to get jobs and work for the "local milk people".  Senile.

This guy is such a joke. 


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 05, 2017, 05:23:10 pm
I already edited the post in question.  No harm, no foul - just a friendly warning.

How can I be warned when I have no idea what you edited or what you didn't like?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 05, 2017, 05:25:44 pm
One of my few rules - don't insult the public figures by changing their names.

Why? I ask this because I believe that that other site started to go wrong when the moderation focused not so much on how members treated each other, but to a fanatical degree, how members referred to extraneous people like politicians, heads of the RCMP, tribal leaders, union leaders, Quebec, natives, foreigners, etc.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 05, 2017, 09:15:40 pm
How can I be warned when I have no idea what you edited or what you didn't like?

Warning is the wrong - word.  I should have said reminder.

There are 3 rules:

use proper names
don't insult eachother
don't do anything illegal. 

I wasn't meaning to bring down the hammer - I just want to keep it civil.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 08, 2017, 11:03:47 am
One of my few rules - don't insult the public figures by changing their names.
You have rules?

This is bullshit.  ;D
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 08, 2017, 12:52:02 pm
You have rules?

This is bullshit.  ;D

Sorry
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 08, 2017, 01:42:56 pm
One of my few rules - don't insult the public figures by changing their names.
Does that include using the president's historical name Drumph? After all, he himself said people should be proud of their heritage.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 08, 2017, 01:52:22 pm
Does that include using the president's historical name Drumph? After all, he himself said people should be proud of their heritage.

I'd prefer not, only because he doesn't call himself that.  Though, you are right, it is a historical family name. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 08, 2017, 02:02:24 pm
I already edited the post in question.  No harm, no foul - just a friendly warning.

I think this was me, but because the post is gone I have no idea what I said that was moderated.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 08, 2017, 04:45:39 pm
I think this was me, but because the post is gone I have no idea what I said that was moderated.

I didn't delete any posts from this thread - so I don't think it was you.  There were a few choice words replaced with the appropriate name of the person.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 09, 2017, 01:13:43 pm
Quote
Does that include using the president's historical name Drumph? After all, he himself said people should be proud of their heritage.
I'd prefer not, only because he doesn't call himself that.  Though, you are right, it is a historical family name.
Yeah but its not just that its a historical family name... its that Donald himself has actually attacked people for changing their names.

If Trump is criticizing people for not using their historical names, then isn't it morally right to expect some consistency and refer to Trump by his family's historical name?

If Jon Stewart is so above it all & legit, why did he change his name from Jonathan Leibowitz? He should be proud of his heritage!
- Donald J Trump, aka Drumph

http://www.thedailybeast.com/revisiting-donald-trumps-anti-semitic-attacks-against-jon-stewart
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 09, 2017, 01:39:55 pm
It's definitely a grey area.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2017, 03:22:10 pm
I kinda don't like the way Trump keeps playing tit for tat with Kim. It seems like he is simply falling into the nut bar blender like children in a sand box, although with much more dangerous tools in hand.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 10, 2017, 10:55:18 pm
I'd prefer not, only because he doesn't call himself that.  Though, you are right, it is a historical family name.
Yeah but its not just that its a historical family name... its that Donald himself has actually attacked people for changing their names.

If Trump is criticizing people for not using their historical names, then isn't it morally right to expect some consistency and refer to Trump by his family's historical name?

If Jon Stewart is so above it all & legit, why did he change his name from Jonathan Leibowitz? He should be proud of his heritage!
- Donald J Trump, aka Drumph

http://www.thedailybeast.com/revisiting-donald-trumps-anti-semitic-attacks-against-jon-stewart

This one always annoyed me. Trump was never named Drumpf, nor was his father or grandfather or great-grandfather... in fact the "Drumpf" surname was allegedly dropped sometime in the 1600s.  Suggesting that the guy ought to go by a surname his family dropped hundreds of years ago is asinine. Quite different from the show-biz practice of using a stage-name, as Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz (and many others) do.

The reason it annoys me is that many of us from non-English backgrounds have different surnames from what our ancestors did. Dad's Swedish grandparents adopted an Anglicized spelling of their name when they arrived in the New World. Mom's family name is 6 letters shorter than what her her Eastern European ancestors went by. I feel like if you're mocking Trump because his ancestors changed the family name in the 1600s, you're also mocking a lot of people whose families changed their names a lot more recently.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 10, 2017, 10:56:24 pm
One of my few rules - don't insult the public figures by changing their names.

In my defense, I honestly thought her name was Susan.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 10, 2017, 11:00:17 pm
Once upon a time Trump predicted that Obama would start dropping bombs in the Middle East to distract from falling poll numbers.

That's projection. That's Trump telling everybody how he thinks. He thought Obama would do that because that's what Trump would do.

And so it shouldn't be surprising that Trump has climbed into the sandbox to squabble with fellow fat-kid snowflake Kim Jong Un.

The senile motherfucker is going to start a nuclear war to distract everybody from the Russia probe.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 11, 2017, 12:11:46 am
This one always annoyed me. Trump was never named Drumpf, nor was his father or grandfather or great-grandfather... in fact the "Drumpf" surname was allegedly dropped sometime in the 1600s.  Suggesting that the guy ought to go by a surname his family dropped hundreds of years ago is asinine. Quite different from the show-biz practice of using a stage-name, as Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz (and many others) do.
First of all, while there are some reports that the Drumpf name was changed in the 1600s, there is fairly strong evidence that the change was much more recent... by his Grandfather, so while Trump may not have used the name 'Drumph', the name 'Trump' may not be that old.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-drumpf/

Secondly, the name 'Stewart' isn't just a stage name; Jon Stewart legally changed it, and while it may have benefited his career, it appears the main reason was due to a poor relationship with his father.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Stewart#Early_life

So, there are legal and moral reasons to refer to Jon as 'Stewart'. Yet Trump thought it was fair game to attempt to refer to him by a name that Stewart isn't known by legally, and who doesn't want to be referred to for personal reasons..
Quote
The reason it annoys me is that many of us from non-English backgrounds have different surnames from what our ancestors did. Dad's Swedish grandparents adopted an Anglicized spelling of their name when they arrived in the New World. Mom's family name is 6 letters shorter than what her her Eastern European ancestors went by. I feel like if you're mocking Trump because his ancestors changed the family name in the 1600s, you're also mocking a lot of people whose families changed their names a lot more recently.
No, I'm mocking Trump for being a hypocrite. If he had actually said "It made sense for Jon Stewart to change his name", I probably wouldn't be be talking about Drumph. Heck, even if he had remained silent about Stewart's name change I would have had less to criticize him for. Its the fact that he attacked others for changing their name (for reasons that were just as valid as his ancestors changing their name from Drumph to Trump) that I am criticizing him.
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 11, 2017, 01:13:27 pm
I think this was me, but because the post is gone I have no idea what I said that was moderated.
It was me for sure. I used a different word for Huckabee.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 11, 2017, 02:57:18 pm
Several people did things.  No harm no foul.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 13, 2017, 08:50:11 pm
Now we have a similar group of right wing knucklehead Trump supporters raoming the streets of Seattle creating a similar environment as they did in VA. I guess it's "Alt the Governments Men"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 14, 2017, 05:58:33 am
 Other stupidity from last week:

Exacerbating the NK nuclear threat
Military option for Venezuela
Fighting with the Senate Majority leader of his own party
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 14, 2017, 03:45:57 pm
Someone at the White House must have held Trump's feet to the fire to convince him to finally make a proper statement as to what occurred in Chancellorsville. Trump tried to redeem himself today by finally giving a statement where he did actually condemn racists, white supremacists, neo-nazis, and the like. Of course the statement fell flat, partly because he prefixed such an important issue with a ridiculous statement about the economy, but mostly because he took so long to address the real issues. A question in my mind is Trump really that ignorant and arrogant with regard to his original statement, or was there a method to his madness? I suspect the latter. He knows the people he finally identified and condemned today are a big chunk of his supporters. By not singling them out at the outset, he can deliver this totally scripted teleprompter chatter today with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to them. Who the hell would need a teleprompter to deliver such statement if they were in any way sincere? I hope this disgrace drives his polls further into the ditch where they belong.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on August 14, 2017, 09:27:54 pm
He needed a teleprompter for it to be coherent English. Today's speech might actually save him more votes than he stands to keep by defending these morons.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 14, 2017, 11:51:52 pm
It seems to me there are a lot of moroms who voted for him who need to look up the word autocray. Or perhaps they already have and don't give a f**k because it suits their racist agenda. Maybe we should be thinking about a wall.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 15, 2017, 12:02:07 pm
Someone at the White House must have held Trump's feet to the fire to convince him to finally make a proper statement as to what occurred in Chancellorsville. Trump tried to redeem himself today by finally giving a statement where he did actually condemn racists, white supremacists, neo-nazis, and the like. Of course the statement fell flat, partly because he prefixed such an important issue with a ridiculous statement about the economy, but mostly because he took so long to address the real issues.
It should also be pointed out that, while Trump waited days before getting around to say "Nazis are bad, m'kay?"...

- When one of the members of his Manufacturing council resigned in protest of Trump's inaction, he launched a twitter attack within hours

- After his apology, he went on Twitter (again, after only a very short amount of time) to attack the media, calling them "truly bad people" because they criticized his handling of the events (i.e. he gave more condemnation of the media than he initially did over Nazis and KKK members.)

- Retweeted a post from a well-known alt-right racist (Jack Posobiec). Way to let the world know that you're opposed to Racism... by showing how you support people in the alt-right movement.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/346554-trump-attacks-fake-news-media-following-remarks-on-charlottesville
https://www.mediaite.com/online/twitter-goes-nuts-after-trump-retweets-pizzagate-conspiracist-jack-posobiec/

And I thought Kelly was supposed to get a handle on Trump's excesses.

Quote
A question in my mind is Trump really that ignorant and arrogant with regard to his original statement, or was there a method to his madness? I suspect the latter. He knows the people he finally identified and condemned today are a big chunk of his supporters. By not singling them out at the outset, he can deliver this totally scripted teleprompter chatter today with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" to them. Who the hell would need a teleprompter to deliver such statement if they were in any way sincere? I hope this disgrace drives his polls further into the ditch where they belong.
I'm sure he recognizes that the neo-nazis and racists are among his strongest supporters (and will probably be the only ones left by the time the next election comes around.) But, its also possible that Trump's inability to condemn racism is because he himself is racist and doesn't see anything wrong with it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 15, 2017, 12:05:11 pm
Military option for Venezuela
Yup. After years of a corrupt Venezuelan government trying to blame problems on the evil United States, Trump gives them exactly what they need... real concrete proof that the U.S. wants to interfere.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 15, 2017, 03:28:36 pm
Trump just issued a statement introducing a proposed infrastructure bill and then took questions from the press. Of course there were next to no questions on the bill, mostly on Charlottesville, and he of course once again succeeded to make a complete and utter ass of himself. He went right back to reiterating his initial remarks of "all sides" which he was so roundly criticized for. He continues to indicate that he is a supporter of White Supremacy, the alt. right, and the neo-nazis. I guess America deserves the idiot they elected.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 15, 2017, 04:01:19 pm
Trump just issued a statement introducing a proposed infrastructure bill and then took questions from the press. Of course there were next to no questions on the bill, mostly on Charlottesville, and he of course once again succeeded to make a complete and utter ass of himself. He went right back to reiterating his initial remarks of "all sides" which he was so roundly criticized for. He continues to indicate that he is a supporter of White Supremacy, the alt. right, and the neo-nazis. I guess America deserves the idiot they elected.
He's gone further than that... he has also made references comparing Robert E. Lee with George Washington.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-charlottesville-george-washington-a7895401.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 15, 2017, 04:51:42 pm
Yes he did and he also confirmed his support for Bannon, (who of course shares his bigotry which he displayed endlessly at Breitbart) and to top it off he re-tweeted an image of a train with his name on it running over a CNN reporter. How sleazy and unpresidential would that be at any time, but especially in the wake of Charottesville!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 15, 2017, 09:49:42 pm
He's gone further than that... he has also made references comparing Robert E. Lee with George Washington.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-charlottesville-george-washington-a7895401.html

He was comparing them because they both owned slaves.  He's saying if Lee statues are taken down now, will Washington & Jefferson statues be taken down in the future because they owned slaves?  Trump is a complete racist idiot but rarely have I seen such BS media spin as this story.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 15, 2017, 10:03:57 pm
Trump just issued a statement introducing a proposed infrastructure bill and then took questions from the press. Of course there were next to no questions on the bill, mostly on Charlottesville, and he of course once again succeeded to make a complete and utter ass of himself. He went right back to reiterating his initial remarks of "all sides" which he was so roundly criticized for.

It's disturbing that Trump's default at the last press conference was to defend some of the non-violent right-wingers at the protest while going after the violent lefties...BUT his facts are correct:  there were many people among both sides that initiated violence in Charlottesville, so both sides are to blame.  That doesn't make antifa as bad as neo-nazis and KKK as a whole obviously, and antifa didn't kill anyone with a car, but violence based on hate was started by both sides, footage is all over Youtube.  Hatred of racist nazi supporters doesn't give other regular citizens like you and I the right to physically attack them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 15, 2017, 10:25:15 pm
It's disturbing that Trump's default at the last press conference was to defend some of the non-violent right-wingers at the protest while going after the violent lefties...BUT his facts are correct:  there were many people among both sides that initiated violence in Charlottesville, so both sides are to blame.  That doesn't make antifa as bad as neo-nazis and KKK as a whole obviously, and antifa didn't kill anyone with a car, but violence based on hate was started by both sides, footage is all over Youtube.  Hatred of racist nazi supporters doesn't give other regular citizens like you and I the right to physically attack them.

Oh FFS, it's hard to believe there are those so blind/ignorant as to try and defend what Trump tries to flog when of course the videos clearly show the neo nazi assholes showing up with tiki torches in one hand and AR 15's in the other and then trying to suggest "there was trouble from both sides" Al the knuckledraggers are showing up it seems. Heil Trump!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 15, 2017, 10:46:04 pm
Trump has no values or principles of his own.   Even the white nationalists have values and principles they stand for, as wrong as they might be.  Not Trump.  Trump's only value or principle is doing what benefits Trump.  And as far as his short-sighted thinking is concerned, standing up for these Trump Voters is what he thinks suits his interests the best.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 15, 2017, 11:07:21 pm
Oh FFS, it's hard to believe there are those so blind/ignorant as to try and defend what Trump tries to flog when of course the videos clearly show the neo nazi assholes showing up with tiki torches in one hand and AR 15's in the other and then trying to suggest "there was trouble from both sides" Al the knuckledraggers are showing up it seems. Heil Trump!

Are you going to insult me in your self-righteousness, or are you going to actually debate me?  Insults are the same childish tactic Trump uses, so are you no better?

I'm not saying violent members of ANTIFA etc. were as bad as the violent KKK/nazis, I'm saying there were members of both sides that showed up with weapons prepared for or even looking for a fight.  The protest footage on youtube proves my point.  But please be just like Trump even more and don't let facts ruin a good narrative.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 15, 2017, 11:10:34 pm
Trump has no values or principles of his own.   Even the white nationalists have values and principles they stand for, as wrong as they might be.  Not Trump.  Trump's only value or principle is doing what benefits Trump.  And as far as his short-sighted thinking is concerned, standing up for these Trump Voters is what he thinks suits his interests the best.

I think that's giving him too much credit, I think he's standing up for the alt-right Trump voters because he feels they're right to protest the statue coming down.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 15, 2017, 11:23:16 pm
I do think there's an argument that the AntiFa people went there looking for a fight.

On the other hand, I also think that there's an argument that maybe if you go around with torches and white power flags and chant Nazi slogans, you should be expecting a fight.

There's an established legal precedent in the United States, that certain speech in and of itself constitutes a breach of the peace, under the general heading "Fighting Words".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words

In layman's terms: Talk Shit, Get Hit.

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTqIEnYB.gif&hash=57106a520478491ac71b457bacb0a7a5)

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 15, 2017, 11:42:59 pm
Are you going to insult me in your self-righteousness,

Standing up against racism and bigotry is hardly what anyone would/should call "self-righteousness". And no, your videos do not support your claim. Carrying nazi flags and screaming racist slogans and insults is what is mostly what is seen in those videos. And most of those people travelled in from out of state to be there to raise shit. And btw, the Lee statue wasn't about to be destroyed, it was about to be moved from a park to a museum.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 16, 2017, 09:15:55 am
Standing up against racism and bigotry is hardly what anyone would/should call "self-righteousness". And no, your videos do not support your claim. Carrying nazi flags and screaming racist slogans and insults is what is mostly what is seen in those videos. And most of those people travelled in from out of state to be there to raise shit. And btw, the Lee statue wasn't about to be destroyed, it was about to be moved from a park to a museum.

I condemn every single act/utterance of racism and bigotry by those rightwing protestors as well.  But I also condemn every single act of people there who initiated violence, which was mostly done by the racists it seems but also done by certain leftwing protestors.  Violence in self-defense of physical violence being imminently committed against you or possibly in response to a violent threat against you can be justified, and I'm sure there was plenty of that happening here, but there was more than that happening here.  Everything else should be handled by the police in a civil society, & the cops seemed to fail to act to stop much of the violence so they're to blame too.  We've seen in the US what happens when the law is taken into the hands of citizens, it's created a situation where everyone feels they need to own a gun to protect themselves & gun violence rates are sky high.

Here's video of a leftwing protestor attacking and macing an Alex Jones reporter simply for being associated with dumb Alex Jones.  Police do nothing: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=FLPq6Ggv7fU3S1RVffe6p64Q

Oh and defending one thing Trump said doesn't mean I defend other things he says or support him general, because I don't, he's a terrible person.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 16, 2017, 09:26:58 am
There's an established legal precedent in the United States, that certain speech in and of itself constitutes a breach of the peace, under the general heading "Fighting Words".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words

In layman's terms: Talk Shit, Get Hit.

If you threaten violence against someone then yeah I can see a self-defense claim on that (which as I said, I'm sure happened at the riots by the KKK/nazis).  But you shouldn't be allowed to attack someone because what they said makes you angry or offended.  Stooping to their level is just going to cause a further breakdown of civility & law and help fuel the riots we saw this week.  Martin Luther King didn't tell his supporters to start punching people.  MLK is possibly the greatest American ever, he should be the model here I think.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on August 16, 2017, 10:03:22 am
I agree with MG.  White Supremacists, Nazis etc and their supporters are scum, but if an anti-fa hit first at any individual, that is on them. Non-violent confrontation is more effective at getting one's point across, imo.  Unfortunately people seem to be inherently violent, regardless of their political leanings.

Trump is still wrong for not coming down unequivocally on the alt-right.  If he had ever indicated a balanced viewpoint, then blame on both sides might possibly fly,  but his record reveals his actual intent in this instance. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 16, 2017, 10:36:12 am
Quote
He's gone further than that... he has also made references comparing Robert E. Lee with George Washington.
He was comparing them because they both owned slaves.  He's saying if Lee statues are taken down now, will Washington & Jefferson statues be taken down in the future because they owned slaves?  Trump is a complete racist idiot but rarely have I seen such BS media spin as this story.
That is a flawed argument.

It is true... Washington was not perfect (especially by today's moral standards). The difference is, Washington acted to improve freedom (even if not everyone benefitted equally). Robert E Lee fought for the confederacy, a group that wanted to continue the enslavement of millions.

The monuments to Washingon were not built to honor his actions regarding slavery, but to honor his actions in establishing the U.S. Monuments to confederate solders were built to honor their actions in a war to continue slavery.

Trump should have understood the difference, instead of invoking some sort of 'slippery slope' argument.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 16, 2017, 10:53:56 am
It's disturbing that Trump's default at the last press conference was to defend some of the non-violent right-wingers at the protest while going after the violent lefties...BUT his facts are correct:  there were many people among both sides that initiated violence in Charlottesville, so both sides are to blame.
The problem with that argument...

If the racists/neo-nazis did not exist, then the antifa would not exist.
If the antifa people did not exist, the racists/neo-nazis would have continued doing what they were doing.

It may not necessarily be wrong to question the activities of some of the left-wing protestors. But because of the reasons that both groups exist (one side expressing hate, the other saying hate is wrong), then ALL of the blame should go to the racists.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 16, 2017, 10:55:26 am
Which I would have come up with it, but still a funny quote:

Good to see Trump is finally acting presidential, in a Jefferson Davis sort of way.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 16, 2017, 07:18:07 pm
The problem with that argument...

If the racists/neo-nazis did not exist, then the antifa would not exist.
If the antifa people did not exist, the racists/neo-nazis would have continued doing what they were doing.

It may not necessarily be wrong to question the activities of some of the left-wing protestors. But because of the reasons that both groups exist (one side expressing hate, the other saying hate is wrong), then ALL of the blame should go to the racists.

Huh??  Obviously antifa is fighting for a more righteous cause, but everyone is responsible for their own actions.  I'm going to go with the law here, which says all violence against another person is wrong (unless it's in self-defense of violence being imminently forced upon you etc).  If I punch someone in the face I can't put ALL blame on the other person because they were spewing offensive or even hateful things at me (unless it's threatening me with violence), I'll still be charged with assault, so what you're saying wouldn't stand up in court.  The state has a monopoly on violence, this is how liberal democracies & civilized societies work.

I'm not trying to defend nazis or Trump, I'm trying to defend anti-violence, like MLK & Gandhi did.

Quote
But because of the reasons that both groups exist (one side expressing hate, the other saying hate is wrong), then ALL of the blame should go to the racists.]

Consider this: when an otherwise well-meaning protester dislikes hateful Nazis/KKK like we all do with so much resentment & anger that the protester violently attacks those KKK racists, isn't that also an expression of hate?  Shouldn't we be better than them? "Others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win, unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself". - Richard Nixon at his farewell speech.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 16, 2017, 08:07:55 pm


I'm not trying to defend nazis or Trump, I'm trying to defend anti-violence, like MLK & Gandhi did.

That's about as flimsy an argument as Trump is trying to flog. Watch the videos and get back to us as to who you see coming to the party with Nazi flags, tiki torches, and AR 15's, screaming racist slogans. Quit trying to protect these assholes!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 16, 2017, 08:34:33 pm
That's about as flimsy an argument as Trump is trying to flog.

Anti-violence is not a good argument?  Do you condemn all of the people who initiated violence on that day?  For Pete's sake I try to do so and I'm labeled a Trump & Nazi defender on all this nonsense here & elsewhere.

Quote
Watch the videos and get back to us as to who you see coming to the party with Nazi flags, tiki torches, and AR 15's, screaming racist slogans. Quit trying to protect these assholes!

Show me where I've defended these horrible idiots?  I'm not pro-Nazi i'm anti-violent a$$hats!!  I'm not going to defend a bunch of idiots just because they're "on my side".  This isn't a baseball game, people are getting hurt out there.  Nazis getting clubbed & maced isn't the worst thing I've heard of but momma taught me better too.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 16, 2017, 09:51:29 pm
WWII was pretty violent.  Sometimes we hit the Nazis first.  Sometimes, you have to hit the Nazis first.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 16, 2017, 10:44:36 pm
WWII was pretty violent.  Sometimes we hit the Nazis first.  Sometimes, you have to hit the Nazis first.

The Nazis hit first.  The Allies etc were defending themselves against Nazi attack.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 12:21:25 am
The Nazis hit first.  The Allies etc were defending themselves against Nazi attack.

Overall.  The same is true here.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on August 17, 2017, 12:31:31 am
Oh the false equivalency going on by the Trump supporter here.

As seen on twitter: Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also aggressive. There was aggression on both sides.

As seen on the facebook: We hate Trump as much as you hate Obama. The difference is we hate Trump because he is racist while you hate Obama because you are a racist. 



Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 05:59:54 pm
Overall.  The same is true here.

If a left-wing protester was being violent in order to defend themselves against a violent attack by these alt-right idiots then yes you're right.  But that wasn't always the case in Charlottesville.  Here's footage of a pretty tame speech by the organizer of the "Unite the Right" protests being attacked/punched by a protester...who chases him down & punches him again before being arrested by the cops (go to 17:30 in the video): 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg)

Every single one of us either supports this violence or condemns it as per the law, there's no other option.  Nazis and anti-Nazi protesters should all be following the same basic rule of law, otherwise there will be chaos.  The cops failed to uphold the law on every side during the protests since they were ordered by the mayor to stand down.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 06:17:41 pm
Oh the false equivalency going on by the Trump supporter here.

I'm not a Trump supporter, he's a terrible person & a racist.

Quote
As seen on twitter: Sure, the cancer was aggressive. But the chemotherapy was also aggressive. There was aggression on both sides.

Violence by vigilantes is not the proper cure for this cancer.  Go ask MLK or Gandhi.  We don't need to stoop to their level.  The chemo here is protest, condemnation, & political action.  We've seen a whole bunch of confederate monuments come down since the protest, that's what we need.

Quote
As seen on the facebook: We hate Trump as much as you hate Obama. The difference is we hate Trump because he is racist while you hate Obama because you are a racist.

True enough, but we need to stop hating people we strongly dislike.  It leads to people lashing out in violence.  We need to stop acting like children and act like civilized adults, which these alt-right morons aren't.  KKK & Nazis are human beings who think, say, and do terrible things, but they're still human beings.  Violent mob justice against them is just like they would do.  Public lynchings brings us to their level.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 17, 2017, 06:21:32 pm
MG has some good thoughts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on August 17, 2017, 08:47:55 pm
He does.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on August 17, 2017, 09:03:02 pm
So when the KKK shows up in town armed and ready for a fight, people should be pacifists and take their shit?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 09:11:49 pm
If a left-wing protester was being violent in order to defend themselves against a violent attack by these alt-right idiots then yes you're right.  But that wasn't always the case in Charlottesville.

My point - that wasn't always the case in WWII either - certainly not at every engagement.  Overall, the Nazis started it, both times.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 09:13:21 pm
MG has some good thoughts.

Not really - it's more moral equivalency garbage.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 17, 2017, 09:45:36 pm
He does.

I think so too.  Even if the nazis are abhorrent, I don't think instigating violence was right.

Fighting back is one thing, but when I started seeing the unprovoked 'punch a nazi' memes I was floored.  Next thing you know the fights escalate and a inevitably someone got killed.

They counter-protesters did their cause a lot of disservice in my opinion and it pisses me off because it gives the nazis justification which they should not have. 

Just listening to Trump make the moral equivalence, for example, makes me sick.  He wouldn't have a leg to stand on otherwise. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 09:51:50 pm
He still didn't have a leg to stand on.  There is no equivalency when there's nazis involved.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 10:15:32 pm
So when the KKK shows up in town armed and ready for a fight, people should be pacifists and take their shit?

No, they should protest the KKK and defend themselves if they're indeed physically attacked, and if the KKK does illegal crap then the police should arrest & charge them.  I believe this is how it works in a normally functioning civil democracy.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 10:22:28 pm
My point - that wasn't always the case in WWII either - certainly not at every engagement.  Overall, the Nazis started it, both times.

So you support mobs of regular citizens lynching Nazis and KKK in America?  I'm sure that will work out well...MLK so proud!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 10:26:14 pm
Not really - it's more moral equivalency garbage.

Trying to equate WWII to Charlottesville is garbage.

I'm not saying leftwing protesters are anywhere near as bad as KKK/Nazis, there's no moral equivalency there.  In fact most of those protesters are great citizens.  The Nazis caused most of that crap.  But when you start swinging punches & clubs because you're angry & you hate someone well I think that's bad behaviour no matter Nazi or whomever.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 17, 2017, 10:32:04 pm
He still didn't have a leg to stand on.  There is no equivalency when there's nazis involved.

I'm not talking ideology, of course there is no equivalency.

I'm talking in their deluded heads.  I don't know if you spend any time actually reading what the other side has to say, but in their minds, the nazis were reacting, not acting, when one of them murdered an innocent woman.

I'm not saying I agree with them or that they raise a good point, I just wish nobody on the side of sanity had given them that out and only fought back instead of instigating.

That's the part that bothers me in all this. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 17, 2017, 10:39:18 pm
I'm not saying I agree with them or that they raise a good point, I just wish nobody on the side of sanity had given them that out and only fought back instead of instigating.

That's the part that bothers me in all this.

I don't think that's much of an out.  There's no excuse for driving a car into innocent people.  The facts remains that the vast majority of people protesting the white supremacists were non-violent, & the supremacists came out looking like the morons.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 10:43:42 pm
So you support mobs of regular citizens lynching Nazis and KKK in America?  I'm sure that will work out well...MLK so proud!

Since that's not what happened, I don't feel the need to make a response.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 10:44:48 pm
But when you start swinging punches & clubs because you're angry & you hate someone well I think that's bad behaviour no matter Nazi or whomever.

I haven't seen much evidence that happened in any kind of a big way.  The hate was exclusively coming from the Nazis.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 10:47:18 pm
I'm not talking ideology, of course there is no equivalency.

I'm talking in their deluded heads.  I don't know if you spend any time actually reading what the other side has to say, but in their minds, the nazis were reacting, not acting, when one of them murdered an innocent woman.

To be frank, I don't care much for what goes on the mind of white supremacists.  Their thought process is obviously corrupted - otherwise they couldn't hate other human beings for such superficial reasons.

Look, the reality is, there would have been no BLM protest if their hadn't been an armed white supremacist march.  One side started everything.  One side came heavily armed.  One side murdered.  That a few people on the other side may have thrown a few unprovoked punched bothers me less than not at all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 17, 2017, 11:07:57 pm
To be frank, I don't care much for what goes on the mind of white supremacists.  Their thought process is obviously corrupted - otherwise they couldn't hate other human beings for such superficial reasons.

Look, the reality is, there would have been no BLM protest if their hadn't been an armed white supremacist march.  One side started everything.  One side came heavily armed.  One side murdered.  That a few people on the other side may have thrown a few unprovoked punched bothers me less than not at all.

I do care how they present their argument because their movement is gaining traction to the point they have a representative in the White House along with a number of his staff.

Their minds may be corrupted, but we have good normal people who see their point (like the few of us on this thread) and that's unfortunate.  To this day the Black Panthers and Malcolm X are maligned where MLK isn't.  Think of the reason why.

When fighting an oppressor it's important to not resort to their tactics.  Think of the Palestine/Israel conflict for example, if the Palestinians would resist using a peaceful solution, they would get a lot further because almost everyone is against Israeli demolishing of Palestinian homes... but the minute they strap a bomb to themselves, no matter how justified their anger at being displaced, people don't want to side with them.

I don't think punching nazis and fighting them on their own level does anything but allow them to justify their distorted sense of reality.  I think real change comes when you're better than that which you claim to hate.

Think Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, MLK.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 17, 2017, 11:41:17 pm
I personally feel that we tried the better way for a long time now - it doesn't seem to have helped to end white supremacist thinking.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 18, 2017, 06:34:36 am
Chomsky has now stated that antifa helps the alt right agenda.

I think that I agree.  If we make this into a fight, we will increase the visibility of the alt right and give them an opportunity to increase their support.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 18, 2017, 07:58:20 am
Are you going to insult me in your self-righteousness, or are you going to actually debate me? 
Debate you about what? Whether it's right to fight violent neo-nazis and white nationalists with violence? Where's the debate to be had?

Think about this, neo-nazis would exist even if antifa didn't. Antifa ONLY exists to fight neo-nazis and skinheads. Period. They wouldn't otherwise exist.

There's no god damned equivalence here. Unless you also sit around condemning the violence "perpetrated" by the Allies stopping Nazi Germany.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 18, 2017, 08:03:23 am
I condemn every single act/utterance of racism and bigotry by those rightwing protestors as well.  But I also condemn every single act of people there who initiated violence, which was mostly done by the racists it seems but also done by certain leftwing protestors. 

So you're like a Mennonite, condemning ALL violence? You're appalled at our troops shooting at ISIS? You're appalled at the death penalty? You're appalled at cops roughing people up when they arrest them? Are you sticking with that all sides narrative for everything? I don't think you are. You're just using it for white supremacists. Time to reflect on your life.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 18, 2017, 08:09:35 am
I think so too.  Even if the nazis are abhorrent, I don't think instigating violence was right.
Antifa exists to fight white supremacist fascists. They're not instigators, they're a reaction to violence. You know, the groups chanting kill the Jews and Nazi slogans. Yet you call Antifa the instigators? You might want to reflect on that a little more.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 18, 2017, 08:14:32 am
For the record, MLK was only successful because the alternative was the Black Panthers. The state had a choice of listening to MLK or pushing people to the more violent option. Further still, Ghandi and MLK were able to passively push back against laws written to enslave them. There is no passive option for fighting white supremacists trying to take power, unless you're so foolish as to actually think they should be given what they want as the oppressed just sit back and "peacefully" do nothing. Bullshit.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 18, 2017, 09:47:33 am
Why does Trump support Confederates anyway?   Didn't Robert E Lee lose? I thought Trump only liked winners. War heroes that weren't captured, generals that didn't lose, etc.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 11:44:08 am
To be frank, I don't care much for what goes on the mind of white supremacists.  Their thought process is obviously corrupted - otherwise they couldn't hate other human beings for such superficial reasons.

Look, the reality is, there would have been no BLM protest if their hadn't been an armed white supremacist march.  One side started everything.  One side came heavily armed.  One side murdered.  That a few people on the other side may have thrown a few unprovoked punched bothers me less than not at all.

I get that, I know you're a good person, we're on the same team but just disagree on some points.  A Nazi or 2 getting decked...I don't lose sleep over that either, but this also isn't a struggle that's going away any time soon & I'm 100% certain it's going to get worse over the next few decades as caucasian populations in the West dwindle due to low birth-rates, baby boomers dying, & immigration to replace them which will be seen as a threat to white nationalists more & more.  So we need to decide the tactics on how we're going to deal with these extremists.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 11:54:44 am
I personally feel that we tried the better way for a long time now - it doesn't seem to have helped to end white supremacist thinking.

Then you support left-wing extremist terrorism then, that's basically what you're saying.  Civilians causing violence against other civilians for political ends is terrorism.  Every terrorist thinks their cause is righteous.

You don't think white supremicism has shrunk significantly over the last 50-00 years?  It's not gone no, but Barack Obama was elected POTUS twice.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 12:06:39 pm
Debate you about what? Whether it's right to fight violent neo-nazis and white nationalists with violence? Where's the debate to be had?

Think about this, neo-nazis would exist even if antifa didn't. Antifa ONLY exists to fight neo-nazis and skinheads. Period. They wouldn't otherwise exist.

Think about this, America would exist even if al-Qaeda didn't.  Al-Qaeda ONLY exists to fight America and Israel and sinful Muslim apostates.  Period.  They wouldn't otherwise exist.

Quote
There's no god damned equivalence here. Unless you also sit around condemning the violence "perpetrated" by the Allies stopping Nazi Germany.

Nazis would have invaded & minced up all of Europe if they weren't stopped at gunpoint by the Allies.  There was no non-violence alternative.  I believe there is here, as there was in the 50's/60's with MLK and in British India with Gandhi.  Now if KKK started physically attacking leftwing protesters, I certainly believe in the right for those protesters to defend themselves with violence if necessary.  I'm not a pacifist, I believe in violence only when absolutely necessary where there's no viable alternative.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 12:11:51 pm
So you're like a Mennonite, condemning ALL violence?

No, I never said that.

Quote
You're appalled at our troops shooting at ISIS? You're appalled at the death penalty? You're appalled at cops roughing people up when they arrest them?

No.  Yes.  No (in a healthy & functioning liberal democracy, the police have the monopoly of violence.  This prevents vigilante justice & anarchy. The most extreme elements of ANTIFA are anarchists).
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2017, 12:17:26 pm
I personally feel that we tried the better way for a long time now - it doesn't seem to have helped to end white supremacist thinking.

People like this will always exist so it is futile to think you will "end" it by any means, including using violence. We must continually work at discrediting it, not validating them by lowering themselves to their level.

Demand to know how they intend to achieve their agenda. Forced expulsions?  Putting people in camps? Forced sterilization to keep non whites from reproducing? Passing discriminatory laws that a SC will trash in a heartbeat? How?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 18, 2017, 12:31:39 pm
Bannon Out...

Looks like Steve Bannon is no longer a part of Trump's team.

There are conflicting stories... There are some claims that he actually resigned a week ago, but then Trump and others were acting as if Bannon was still working for Trump as of earlier this week.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-has-decided-to-remove-steve-bannon-from-white-house/

There are some reports (not yet confirmed) stating that the split was not friendly, and Bannon is planning on going "to war" against the white house.

https://twitter.com/gabrielsherman/status/898594013409882112
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: poochy on August 18, 2017, 12:42:13 pm
This whole 'there's no moral equivalency' thing is hard to understand.  These NAZI's are not the NAZI's of the 1930's and 40's, they haven't actually done much of anything when looked at in context, certainly not as much as ISIS for example, are these modern NAZI's more of a threat than ISIS?  Have they done more damage?  So what exactly does no moral equivalency mean?  Are these NAZI's already as bad as Hitler's NAZI's for wanting to be like them, or thinking they do, or because they could become them when we already have others behaving in much worse ways elsewhere?  It's not normal to compare the behavior of one group to the behaviors of others to say who was worse?   We measure most things against others.  It sounds like a cop out designed to prevent even debating the subject, and maybe that's the way it needs to be, idk.

So this group that i hadnt heard of before this week, antifa, are these the new heroes of equality and democracy?  Are these the vigilantes we need now, enough that we will cheer them on and give them license to fight for us in the future?  Here's a question, how many of them are they same sort of people who will shout down anyone they disagree with at a university?  Or cheer when someone blows up a bus in Israel, or cheer when a cop gets ambushed and murdered?  How many of them are Marxists or Communists?  Or when they carry a certain flag, should we not take them as seriously as the NAZI's carrying their own flags?  Maybe when they do it it's just cute, i mean, what harm could come of that?  Are these really the good people you want to empower with defending your principles?  Are we not allowed to ask those questions simply because the NAZI's were, maybe are and could be so terrible again?  Was it wrong to criticize Stalin for the deaths of millions because he lead Russia while it fought off the NAZI's while they killed millions more?  As I learned this week antifa isn't really new, its as old as the NAZI's, but then they were actually fighting a widespread political movement, not a few morons under sheets or carrying NAZI flags.

At least some of the people from the 'good' side are as extreme as those on the 'bad' side, the problem may end up being that we already give those 'good' people too much leeway to decide where we are supposed going as a society, we may realize at some point that their idea of a perfect world may not be ours. After all the right statues come down what will they target next, and are you going to then tell them that they are going to far, will you have the courage?  If they label you as the next racist or bigot, or even NAZI, what then?  There will not be a level of acceptable progression to them, there will just be the next target.  I dont much care about statues either, knock em all down, lee was a slave owner, he was also a patriot of the wrong 'country', fighting for the wrong things, even by those standards.  So do away with all of it, but im not sure im allowed to mention this as it's in the vein of "moral equivalency", but even the people who fought against slavery, and campaigned against it, were mostly still racists.  So how not racist enough did you have to be to keep your statue?  Idk, but I suppose antifa or some other good folks, like those at BLM will tell us, when they arent cheering on cop killers.

Anyway, NAZI's horrible, KKK horrible, much less horrible people may still not be good people, and they may not be the sort you want to empower to either protect or limit yours or anyone else's freedoms.  I dont have any answers, at least not as sure of them as some of you seem to be of yours, maybe considering the president, this is the only option, but lets not pretend the people who showed up to fight off the NAZI's were just local residents who saw them and reacted, just good people doing a good deed, no, antifa is a far left political organization that sees itself as outside the law, support that if you think you must.

"Antifa believes it is pursuing the opposite of authoritarianism. Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state. But in the name of protecting the vulnerable, antifascists have granted themselves the authority to decide which Americans may publicly assemble and which may not."

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

But i dont think i can.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: poochy on August 18, 2017, 01:18:52 pm
O, and is this now ok too?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/missouri-senator-trump-assassination-posts-1.4252610

Trump is the enemy, he's the fascist in chief, if she self identifies as a member of antifa will that make it more ok? Or is that not required?  I mean, it's no more legal to accidentally or purposefully murder a NAZI during a protest melee that it is the president so why is she being asked to resign?  Maybe we have to ask antifa what their opinion is since they seem to be making the rules now.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 18, 2017, 01:34:00 pm
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

Fuck nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

It's that simple.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 18, 2017, 02:07:23 pm
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

Fuck nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

It's that simple.

Amen
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on August 18, 2017, 03:09:07 pm
I'm not a Trump supporter, he's a terrible person & a racist.


Keep telling yourself that if you care to believe it.

Quote
Violence by vigilantes is not the proper cure for this cancer.  Go ask MLK or Gandhi.  We don't need to stoop to their level.  The chemo here is protest, condemnation, & political action.  We've seen a whole bunch of confederate monuments come down since the protest, that's what we need.


Agreed. Never said vigilantes are the cure.  Just saying it is BS to continue with this false equivalency crap.

Yes, one can make a claim in 1920's Germany that the commies and fascists were just as bad as each other prior to the rise of Hitler.  They probably were roughly equivalent (and look at the results of Stalin and Hitler - clearly equivalent).

But this is 2017. In America. 

The neo-Nazis should be condemned and we all know Hilary would have gotten it right the first time. 

Quote
True enough, but we need to stop hating people we strongly dislike.  It leads to people lashing out in violence.  We need to stop acting like children and act like civilized adults, which these alt-right morons aren't.  KKK & Nazis are human beings who think, say, and do terrible things, but they're still human beings.  Violent mob justice against them is just like they would do.  Public lynchings brings us to their level.


If you put Obama in a room with a random sample of those neo-Nazis I'm pretty sure what the outcome would have been - he'd be hanging from a tree.  Just for being black.

Trump in a room with a random sample of the counter protesters?  He'd get yelled at. They would promise to get more democrats to vote next time.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 03:52:50 pm
You equivocating is idiotic. It's real easy.

Fuck nazis and their supporters and enablers, including Trump.

I agree 100%, I don't think anyone disagrees here with that.

Quote
It's that simple.

Obviously it isn't.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 04:09:30 pm
Agreed. Never said vigilantes are the cure.  Just saying it is BS to continue with this false equivalency crap. 

If you put Obama in a room with a random sample of those neo-Nazis I'm pretty sure what the outcome would have been - he'd be hanging from a tree.  Just for being black.

Trump in a room with a random sample of the counter protesters?  He'd get yelled at. They would promise to get more democrats to vote next time.

I never argued they were equivalent, in fact I've specifically said the opposite & exactly what you're saying.  Again: KKK are WAAAAYYYYYY worse than ANTIFA radicals.  If I were forced to choose a violent KKK member or a violence ANTIFA, well duh yes I'd choose ANTIFA.  That's not the debate here.  The debate is whether initiating violence against white supremacists is a valid tactic we should support or condemn.  I'm saying I'm against any civilian initiating violence against another civilian unless their or another's life or physical safety is in immediate danger.  That's essentially how the law currently works. I'm for the rule of law, & nobody is above that no matter how righteous their cause, unless ie: there's a severe breakdown in rule of law/democracy.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 18, 2017, 05:48:13 pm
This whole 'there's no moral equivalency' thing is hard to understand.  These NAZI's are not the NAZI's of the 1930's and 40's, they haven't actually done much of anything when looked at in context, certainly not as much as ISIS for example, are these modern NAZI's more of a threat than ISIS?  Have they done more damage?
Well, lets see...

In the past 10 years, there have been at least 372 people killed by extremists. Of those,
- 74% were killed by right wing extremists
- 24% were killed by Islamic terrorists
- 2% were killed by left wing extremists
(ETA: This is for the United States.)

Now, granted, not all of those 74% were Nazis... some were members of the KKK, or other extremist groups. Still, some might consider that a racist is a racist, whether they are waving a swastika or the confederate flag.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/murder-and-extremism-in-the-united-states-in-2016

Oh, and by the way... did you know that Trump cut funding to programs to combat right-wing extremists? So while the Racist-in-Chief is trying to stop immigration to protect us from the evil people who pray in a funny way, he is giving free reign to those who cause roughly 3 times the number of deaths. (But at least there are some "fine people" among them.)

http://www.metro.us/president-trump/trump-federal-funding-hate-group-violence
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 18, 2017, 06:54:40 pm
Well, lets see...

In the past 10 years, there have been at least 372 people killed by extremists. Of those,
- 74% were killed by right wing extremists
- 24% were killed by Islamic terrorists
- 2% were killed by left wing extremists

You're right, the stats I've also seen indicate that right-wing extremists are much more violent in terms of causing deaths than left-wing extremists in the US.  Makes sense since a US rightwinger is much more likely to be armed to the teeth with firearms etc.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 18, 2017, 11:02:31 pm
Antifa exists to fight white supremacist fascists. They're not instigators, they're a reaction to violence. You know, the groups chanting kill the Jews and Nazi slogans. Yet you call Antifa the instigators? You might want to reflect on that a little more.



I'm talking about throwing the first punch, not self-defense, when I say it's wrong. 

I don't think punching people for doing nazi salute is a measured response. 

http://www.distractify.com/politics/2017/08/16/Z2vFsHr/man-makes-nazi-salute-on-camer


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 18, 2017, 11:05:22 pm
I never argued they were equivalent, in fact I've specifically said the opposite & exactly what you're saying.  Again: KKK are WAAAAYYYYYY worse than ANTIFA radicals.  If I were forced to choose a violent KKK member or a violence ANTIFA, well duh yes I'd choose ANTIFA.  That's not the debate here.  The debate is whether initiating violence against white supremacists is a valid tactic we should support or condemn.  I'm saying I'm against any civilian initiating violence against another civilian unless their or another's life or physical safety is in immediate danger.  That's essentially how the law currently works. I'm for the rule of law, & nobody is above that no matter how righteous their cause, unless ie: there's a severe breakdown in rule of law/democracy.

I get what you're saying, it's not difficult to understand. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 19, 2017, 08:00:10 am
Obviously it isn't.
No. It really is.

A white supremacist neo-nazi murdered an innocent woman and attempted to murder several others by driving a car into a crowd. It's pretty easy to unequivocally denounce a terrorist murderer without pointing fingers at the victims at all. Bringing up ANTIFA or any other nonsense is meant to equivocate and justify his actions. Absolutely nothing else. It is literally used to diminish the gravity of what had happened. It also changes the conversation from denouncing an appalling murder to whining about liberals.

Look, you keep saying how abhorrent neo-nazis are and that there's no justification for their action. That entire rally was about white supremacy and those who weren't white supremacists stayed there and supported people chanting Nazi slogans and death to the Jews. What would you do if you went to a rally that you thought was about preserving historical monuments only to find yourself surrounded by a crowd full of hate-mongers? A normal, reasonable, and rational person would leave. That's not a crowd you want to be associated with or supporting. So that ENTIRE side were shitbags. Full stop.

On the left, you had professors, students, citizens, denouncing hate-mongering and white supremacy. That's what the vast majority of that crowd was. Were there radicals there. Absolutely. ANTIFA is a radical group, organized to fight white supremacy. But that was not the entire crowd on the other side. Not even close. That's not who was murdered by that maniac. That's not who those 19 others were that were seriously injured by him either. These were innocent civilians.

Seriously. Denouncing what had happened is a total softball. There is absolutely no room to play politics and during a time of crisis, during a literal radical rightwing terrorist attack, to turn around and start attacking the left and saying there's violence on "all sides" as if there is ANY comparison here. There is none. Nobody on the left opened fire on the crowd of white supremacists. Nobody on the left tried to drive a car into the crowd or murder anyone there. None.

In short, there is a time and a place to denounce the radicalism of ANTIFA. That absolutely has it's place and would be necessary if they drove a car into a crowd of white supremacists. Doing it when you're on national television supposedly consoling the nation after a white supremacist tried to murder a couple dozen people.....there's nothing else to call that than fucking stupid. That's seriously not the time for mental masturbation about tallying up the sins of both sides to see which is worse.

(Besides, even if you did that, it's not even damn near close which radicals have shed more blood. Timothy McVeigh, Anders Breivik, etc., have spilled FAR more blood than any radical leftwing group that wasn't some authoritarian despot government ever has. There's a reason the intelligence agencies have said rightwing radical lone wolves are the single biggest terrorist threat to America. It's not leftwing radicals blowing up government buildings, building up militias, shooting up or burning down black churches, or driving cars into crowds of protesters. It wasn't leftwing protesters throwing black babies to alligators, dragging black men from their homes and hanging them from trees, or dragging black people from the bumpers of pickup trucks.)

Have some damn perspective, man.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 19, 2017, 10:48:13 am
I think amongst all this bullshit it's also really important to note that there is absolutely zero documented evidence of the left attacking anyone at all. Trump completely fabricated the story about them "charging in with clubs." It never happened. Not a single photo or video of it happening has emerged. Meanwhile, aside from the murder that took place, we do have videos and photos of white supremacists shoving and attacking counter-protesters, including clergy who had linked arms. More importantly, look at the stated purpose of the groups. The anarchists and anti-fascists were there to protest against white supremacy. White supremacists were there to literally promote genocide and violence.

I just can't for the life of me understand how anyone can even remotely equivocate on this matter. It's like the cops breaking up a streetfight and someone saying "There was a lot of violent on both sides. The drunks fighting in the street and the cops breaking them up. Lots of bad violence everywhere." It's sheer stupidity.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 19, 2017, 12:26:14 pm
There are multiple different issues here, and the white supremacy thing has overshadowed everything else, as it should.

Leaving that aside, we have:

 -people bringing weapons to public spaces in anticipation of confrontation.  -not cool.

 -does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

 -what's the best way to oppose speech we strongly disagree with?  -I am not sure.

 -what other ways are there to combat hate groups other than actual combat?


We've probably all seen the video of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head during an interview, and we probably all laughed because Richard Spencer probably deserves to get punched in the head.  But the reality is that we can't go around punching people in the head.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 19, 2017, 12:42:11 pm
-does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

 -k
Let me explain it as briefly as possible, since this one really interests me because I have a material history background.

Confederate monuments were erected for the sole purpose of intimidating black people in public spaces during the Jim Crow era. They weren't put up just after the wars to memorialize the fallen. They were put up 50-75 years. You know what's another fine example of this kind of white supremacy? Schools. When black people were finally allowed to go to the same public schools as white people, guess what happened? They started renaming schools after Confederates, as a subversive "fuck you" to black people.

Here's a fantastic graphic showing the timeline. The blue dots are "monuments" built at courthouses. The green dots are schoolhouse "monuments." It's not a coincidence that there was an explosion of schoolhouse monuments after Brown v Board of Education.

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage-timeline150_years_of_iconography.jpg

For reference:

Plessy v Ferguson 1896--Separate but equal doctrine. The kickoff of Jim Crow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Brown v Board of Education 1954--Overturned Plessy v Ferguson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education

Those monuments aren't even remotely close to memorializing history. They were meant for one sole purpose and that was the intimidation of black people in public spaces.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 19, 2017, 01:05:58 pm
That's extremely interesting!

That sharp rise at around 1900-- 35 years after the war ended-- suggests that maybe the people who remembered the war were dying off and the people who were children or not even born at the time of the war were coming to power... so maybe their notion of the Confederacy was based on romanticized ideas they learned as kids.

I was reading last week about a group called "The Daughters of the Confederacy", the group that put up the Jefferson Davis plaque in Montreal that was removed last week.  The Daughters, founded at about the same time-- 1894-- set out to promote a revisionist, romanticized view of the Confederacy. I think the 30 year gap is interesting.  It seems to indicate that conditions had to change before they could go ahead with. Maybe romanticizing the South couldn't proceed until people who actually remembered the Civil War died off... maybe romanticizing the South couldn't begin in earnest until kids raised on tales of Southern glory became adults.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 19, 2017, 02:59:08 pm
-people bringing weapons to public spaces in anticipation of confrontation.  -not cool.

Not cool? It's idiotic. It's idiotic to even let them wear masks and carry shields. And the whole concept of 'open carry' is ludicrous.

Quote
-does the US really need monuments to the Confederacy?  -I personally don't get it.

I'm not a southerner. But the south has developed, perhaps because they were crushed in their war, a need to believe that their history was something greater, more noble. It's become a part of their culture now, of how they see themselves. A poll taken by National Public Radio showed Americans think the monuments should remain, by more than a two to one margin. The margin was even higher among Republicans as just 6% felt they should be removed.

Quote
-what's the best way to oppose speech we strongly disagree with?  -I am not sure.

Imagine if you gave a rally and made speeches and nobody paid any attention to it because it was stupid?

Quote
We've probably all seen the video of Richard Spencer getting punched in the head during an interview, and we probably all laughed because Richard Spencer probably deserves to get punched in the head.  But the reality is that we can't go around punching people in the head.

And a lot of people took a fierce joy in him getting punched and run off. Today in Boston thousands of protestors swamped a couple of hundred right wingers trying to hold a demo in the park. From what I've read, this was not a white supremacist or Nazi thing. They were libertarians, trump supporters, etc. As far as the demonstrators were concerned they were all Nazis and racists, though. The activist Left does not make fine distinctions in this regard. There is supposed to be a rally in Vancouver over immigration. No doubt some of the people who would/will attend are unsavoury, but many will simply be opposing our current immigration system. But again, the Left is already describing it as a white nationalist rally.

I really don't give a shit about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada. I do really care about freedom of speech, though, and the tendency of the Left to try to shut down any and all conservative demos, meetings or speeches with all-purpose labels and pejoratives.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 19, 2017, 03:19:58 pm
You're right, the stats I've also seen indicate that right-wing extremists are much more violent in terms of causing deaths than left-wing extremists in the US.  Makes sense since a US rightwinger is much more likely to be armed to the teeth with firearms etc.

But even the author of the study which the numbers are derived from makes the point that these are not, for the most part, terrorist incidents. These people are often deranged in their anti-government views, and their violence is often unplanned, or lacks a political motive, or, if it has a political motive, lacks the intent to affect or impact the political or social climate. These are resentful losers with guns, and yes, they're violent, and yes, there's a lot more of them than there are of Muslim terrorists. But the people don't fear them very much because their attacks are usually narrow, aimed at police or government figures. They generally aren't out there hijacking airliners or frenziedly stabbing women to death on the streets, or blowing up bombs in markets or machinegunning crowds of people in malls and restaurants. So they are not, in other words, sowing 'terror' among the general populace. We don't have to show up three hours early to the airport for fear of right wingers putting bombs on the planes, and we don't have cops with automatic weapons at bus and train stations for fear of crazed right wingers. This is why there is a disparity in the coverage and alarm.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on August 19, 2017, 05:05:30 pm
As far as the demonstrators were concerned they were all Nazis and racists, though. The activist Left does not make fine distinctions in this regard.

Kind of like the right-wingers who fail to make any distinction between 'extremists' and Muslims.


Quote
There is supposed to be a rally in Vancouver over immigration. No doubt some of the people who would/will attend are unsavoury, but many will simply be opposing our current immigration system. But again, the Left is already describing it as a white nationalist rally.

This rally is co-organized by WCAI - Worldwide Coalition Against Islam - leader Joey DeLuca.   

[Coalition president Joey De Luca, a Calgary resident travelling to Vancouver for the rally, said Friday he was unable to explain why his vice-president promoted such messages online, a day after De Luca had insisted his group wasn’t racist and had nothing to do with white supremacy.

Earlier this week, Wielenga posted “14 WORDS” on his public Facebook profile, to which another Facebook user responded “1488” and “Hail victory brother,” prompting Wielenga to publicly endorse both comments by clicking “Like.”

These are coded terms commonly used by white supremacists and neo-Nazis, referring to the 14-word slogan “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children,” and “88,” which stands for “Heil Hitler” (using the number “8” to represent “H,” the eighth letter of the alphabet). “Hail victory” is the English translation of “Sieg heil,” a salute used in Nazi Germany.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/no-apologies-from-vancouver-rally-organizer-who-posted-white-supremacist-codes-racist-images-online

The co-organizers are the Cultural Action Party, right up your political alley --
a registered B.C. Political Party, represent Canadian citizens who value and wish to retain Canada's traditional identity, heritage and official languages by way of the following:

Preserve and promote English, French and First Nations cultural heritage throughout society.
Ensure British Columbian residents receive priority regarding affordable housing, employment, education and medical services.
Legislate Canada’s official language of English as the official language of the province of British Columbia.
Restrict, regulate and tax foreign investment in residential, commercial and agricultural real estate.
Revise provincial immigration nominee programs to maximize economic benefit.
Maintain the separation of religion and state at all levels of government, judiciary, legal and educational institutions.
Reduce child poverty and address child abuse within province of British Columbia.
Commercial public signage to be inclusive of Canada’s official language of English.
Repeal carbon emissions taxation within province of British Columbia.
Support funding of Canada’s military and veteran services within their communities.

http://capforcanada.com/platform/



Quote
I really don't give a shit about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada. I do really care about freedom of speech, though, and the tendency of the Left to try to shut down any and all conservative demos, meetings or speeches with all-purpose labels and pejoratives.

Yet, you are very concerned about Muslim extremists in Canada, of which there are even less.  Why the double standard?

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 19, 2017, 06:29:24 pm
Kind of like the right-wingers who fail to make any distinction between 'extremists' and Muslims.

In surveys taken of world Muslims, the majority give opinions on issues like Jews, gays, religious freedom  and gender equality which are, by our standards, extremist.

Quote
This rally is co-organized by WCAI - Worldwide Coalition Against Islam - leader Joey DeLuca.   

[Coalition president Joey De Luca, a Calgary resident travelling to Vancouver for the rally, said Friday he was unable to explain why his vice-president promoted such messages online, a day after De Luca had insisted his group wasn’t racist and had nothing to do with white supremacy.

So his deputy is a moron? So? I imagine they'll wind up parting ways with him from the sound of it.

Quote
The co-organizers are the Cultural Action Party, right up your political alley --
a registered B.C. Political Party, represent Canadian citizens who value and wish to retain Canada's traditional identity, heritage and official languages by way of the following:

Preserve and promote English, French and First Nations cultural heritage throughout society.
Ensure British Columbian residents receive priority regarding affordable housing, employment, education and medical services.
Legislate Canada’s official language of English as the official language of the province of British Columbia.
Restrict, regulate and tax foreign investment in residential, commercial and agricultural real estate.
Revise provincial immigration nominee programs to maximize economic benefit.
Maintain the separation of religion and state at all levels of government, judiciary, legal and educational institutions.
Reduce child poverty and address child abuse within province of British Columbia.
Commercial public signage to be inclusive of Canada’s official language of English.
Repeal carbon emissions taxation within province of British Columbia.
Support funding of Canada’s military and veteran services within their communities.

http://capforcanada.com/platform/

What about any of that is extreme?

Quote
Yet, you are very concerned about Muslim extremists in Canada, of which there are even less.  Why the double standard?

Again, the cultural attitudes and beliefs of world Muslims tend to be extremist by our standards. And there are a whole hell of a lot more of them than there are Nazis.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 20, 2017, 06:57:14 am
In surveys taken of world Muslims, the majority give opinions on issues like Jews, gays, religious freedom  and gender equality which are, by our standards, extremist.
 

I think the breakdown of what constitutes a 'group' is informative here.

You are born into a culture, and you don't choose it.  An alt-right group is a new thing, an organized group with stated principles that somebody seeks out and joins because they agree with those. 

Groups and demographics can be useful analytical tools, but humans tend to select groupings that support our in-born "us vs them" tribalism.  If you select groups based on that, you're already on the path to separating and dividing people. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 20, 2017, 09:59:25 am
I think the breakdown of what constitutes a 'group' is informative here.

You are born into a culture, and you don't choose it.  An alt-right group is a new thing, an organized group with stated principles that somebody seeks out and joins because they agree with those. 

The end result is the same. You have views which, by our cultural standards, are extreme. And in some cases, few, to be sure, those views lead some to perform acts of brutal violence against people they don't even know. Thus some moronic Nazi outraged that they disagree with him drives his car into people in Charlottesville. Thus some moronic Moroccan outraged that women aren't behaving in the meek, modest, obedient fashion he believes they should takes a knife to them in Finland.

Quote
Groups and demographics can be useful analytical tools, but humans tend to select groupings that support our in-born "us vs them" tribalism.  If you select groups based on that, you're already on the path to separating and dividing people.

Yes, we do tend to prefer groupings which are 'like us'. That's no surprise to any social psychologist. And that can mean resentment and disapproval towards groups which are not like us. But it usually means we just don't want to have much to do with them. Of course, the more closely you mix these groups and the wider the variance between deeply held beliefs the greater the likelihood of outrage and thus violence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 20, 2017, 10:27:06 am
I've never felt the need to mix with groups of people that were 'like me' at all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 20, 2017, 10:33:07 am
I've never felt the need to mix with groups of people that were 'like me' at all.

Well, you're just special.

It is a common complaint that every place is starting to look the same. But in the information age, the late writer James Chapin once told me, every place becomes more like itself. People are less often tied down to factories and mills, and they can search for places to live on the basis of cultural affinity. Once they find a town in which people share their values, they flock there, and reinforce whatever was distinctive about the town in the first place.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/09/people-like-us/302774/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/09/people-like-us/302774/)

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on August 20, 2017, 10:45:33 am
I've never felt the need to mix with groups of people that were 'like me' at all.

Yeah, I've always found it interesting and rewarding to mix with all kinds of people.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 20, 2017, 10:50:02 am
Yeah, I've always found it interesting and rewarding to mix with all kinds of people.

Of course. You're special too.

The science behind the adage that birds of a feather flock together has been unravelled at last. It is all down to a brain region which categorises people as being like us, even if all we know about them is that they have one thing in common..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html)

If you’ve been under the impression that only opposites attract, then it's time to re-think everything. According to a new study by various research institutions in Germany, we are attracted to people who are similar to us, as opposed to someone who is our opposite. We inherently want someone so much like us, that we’re even attracted to people who look like us or family members. Yes, your partner actually might look just like your mom, but you also might just be in severe denial about it.


https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science (https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on August 20, 2017, 11:17:49 am
Of course. You're special too.

The science behind the adage that birds of a feather flock together has been unravelled at last. It is all down to a brain region which categorises people as being like us, even if all we know about them is that they have one thing in common..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html)

I suppose it's not news that most people prefer to stay inside their little self-limiting boxes, and avoid reaching out or experiencing different things.   


If you’ve been under the impression that only opposites attract, then it's time to re-think everything. According to a new study by various research institutions in Germany, we are attracted to people who are similar to us, as opposed to someone who is our opposite. We inherently want someone so much like us, that we’re even attracted to people who look like us or family members. Yes, your partner actually might look just like your mom, but you also might just be in severe denial about it.


https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science (https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 20, 2017, 08:21:13 pm
On the left, you had professors, students, citizens, denouncing hate-mongering and white supremacy. That's what the vast majority of that crowd was. Were there radicals there. Absolutely. ANTIFA is a radical group, organized to fight white supremacy. But that was not the entire crowd on the other side. Not even close. That's not who was murdered by that maniac. That's not who those 19 others were that were seriously injured by him either. These were innocent civilians.

Seriously. Denouncing what had happened is a total softball. There is absolutely no room to play politics and during a time of crisis, during a literal radical rightwing terrorist attack, to turn around and start attacking the left and saying there's violence on "all sides" as if there is ANY comparison here. There is none. Nobody on the left opened fire on the crowd of white supremacists. Nobody on the left tried to drive a car into the crowd or murder anyone there. None.

In short, there is a time and a place to denounce the radicalism of ANTIFA. That absolutely has it's place and would be necessary if they drove a car into a crowd of white supremacists. Doing it when you're on national television supposedly consoling the nation after a white supremacist tried to murder a couple dozen people.....there's nothing else to call that than fucking stupid. That's seriously not the time for mental masturbation about tallying up the sins of both sides to see which is worse.



You are totally obfuscating, it's been explained again and again that the nazis are way worse and there is no comparison between the two sides.  Donald Trump is an idiot and equally idiotic are his statements on the topic.

For the 20th time - yes, the nazis are way worse.  They are despicable.  They ganged up and beat people and one of them committed murder and attempted murder.

Nobody (at least on this board) is refuting that.  But that doesn't mean that going around and throwing the first punch against the idiots is a righteous thing to do and if you think nobody is doing that then your head is very much in the sand because a TONNE of people are excusing it and applauding it on social media and since you deny anyone did anything of the sort, please see my last post where I left a link earlier where a man was punched for doing a nazi salute.

That's the issue here... nobody on this board is defending Trump's moral equivalence as though the two are equal.  Nobody.

Only that it's not complete evil against complete innocence, we have idiots on our side too who are not doing our cause any good.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 20, 2017, 08:33:53 pm
Of course. You're special too.

The science behind the adage that birds of a feather flock together has been unravelled at last. It is all down to a brain region which categorises people as being like us, even if all we know about them is that they have one thing in common..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3336375/We-prefer-people-we-think-are-similar-to-ourselves.html)

If you’ve been under the impression that only opposites attract, then it's time to re-think everything. According to a new study by various research institutions in Germany, we are attracted to people who are similar to us, as opposed to someone who is our opposite. We inherently want someone so much like us, that we’re even attracted to people who look like us or family members. Yes, your partner actually might look just like your mom, but you also might just be in severe denial about it.


https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science (https://www.bustle.com/articles/153908-why-were-attracted-to-people-who-are-just-like-us-according-to-science)

Well, I agree that I like to be friends who are like me but that has nothing to do with their outward appearances.  Generally it comes down to values and lifestyle. 

I must be special too.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 20, 2017, 10:34:43 pm
In Montreal, the "anti-fascist" protesters made fools of themselves by attacking the police and media while the anti-immigration group "La Meute" waited in an underground parkade for police to disperse the rioters.


This was from the Seattle "counter-protest" to the "Patriot Prayer" event there:

https://streamable.com/yzmw6

It's hard to get behind a group who are prepared to beat a guy's head in because he looks "alt-right" to them.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 21, 2017, 07:50:58 am
Well, I agree that I like to be friends who are like me but that has nothing to do with their outward appearances.  Generally it comes down to values and lifestyle. 

I must be special too.

But if you start out with zero friends who are non-white, how long will it take to get to a place where your friend list is proportional to your local area, or Canada ?  I have, like, four black friends in Toronto and it's not for not liking black folks.  I just don't meet them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on August 21, 2017, 08:41:11 am
It's hard to get behind a group who are prepared to beat a guy's head in because he looks "alt-right" to them.


 -k
Agreed.  Also the masks, thats weird, is it to intimidate the "other side" or to avoid cameras?   I am reminded of Surreu Creep Catchers, and some cops, who think their goal justifies their means. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2017, 09:07:38 am
In Montreal

Quebec City
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: msj on August 21, 2017, 09:33:41 am
Now that Trump has bankrupted the Secret Service in only 7 months we will see:

Will it be the Antifa's who get him?

Or will it be the KKK since he "allowed his white daughter to marry a jew?"

I wonder what the odds are?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 21, 2017, 10:25:13 am
No. It really is.

This followed by 7 paragraphs explaining to me why it's so simple, including several strawmans aka arguments of things I never even said.

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A white supremacist neo-nazi murdered an innocent woman and attempted to murder several others by driving a car into a crowd. It's pretty easy to unequivocally denounce a terrorist murderer without pointing fingers at the victims at all.

It wasn't the victims' fault they got hit by a damned car by an a$$!  I'm not saying that!

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Bringing up ANTIFA or any other nonsense is meant to equivocate and justify his actions. Absolutely nothing else.

Uhh no, it's meant to say it wasn't just the neo-nazis who started violence and to make the point that fighting neo-nazis with their own tactics is the wrong way to do this.  I've said several times now THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND ANTIFA ARE NOT MORALLY EQUIVALENT  And stop telling ME the intentions of what I'M saying, multiple people in here making boogey-mens up in their own minds and then accusing me of being this imaginary enemy aka strawman.

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It is literally used to diminish the gravity of what had happened. It also changes the conversation from denouncing an appalling murder to whining about liberals.

It may be by Trump, but not I.  I'm not whining about liberals.  My political views mostly lean liberal.  I'm whining about a$$hats who commit violence.  I don't give a crap what side you're on, if you started violence during those protests you're an a$$.  If you support mob violence whether on left or right, you're an a$$.  White supremecists who started violence are bigger a$$es, that doesn't make the leftwing a$$ses not a$$ses.

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On the left, you had professors, students, citizens, denouncing hate-mongering and white supremacy. That's what the vast majority of that crowd was. Were there radicals there. Absolutely. ANTIFA is a radical group, organized to fight white supremacy. But that was not the entire crowd on the other side. Not even close.

I'm aware of that and never said otherwise, yet another strawman.

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In short, there is a time and a place to denounce the radicalism of ANTIFA. That absolutely has it's place and would be necessary if they drove a car into a crowd of white supremacists. Doing it when you're on national television supposedly consoling the nation after a white supremacist tried to murder a couple dozen people.....there's nothing else to call that than fucking stupid. That's seriously not the time for mental masturbation about tallying up the sins of both sides to see which is worse.

What Trump did and did not say was wrong, he handled that very poorly, because he's a damned racist, so I agree with you there for sure.  I'm not the POTUS though and I don't speak for America, so I can say whatever I want.  And I say anyone who started violence there is an a$$.  Here I'll edit that so people don't misinterpret my intentions yet again:   Anyone who started violence there is an a$$, and white supremacists who started violence are even bigger a$$es.  Doesn't that go without saying???

Not only did you not denounce the ANTIFA violence (& btw there were more than ANTIFA there on the left creating violence, like the guy who attacked the organizer), you're on record here as supporting it as are others.  IMO that's wrong.  Racist-filled hate & rageful violence fought with justice-filled hate & rageful violence is still hate & rageful violence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 21, 2017, 10:36:35 am
I think amongst all this bullshit it's also really important to note that there is absolutely zero documented evidence of the left attacking anyone at all.

Wrong.  Go to 17:30 (not even ANTIFA that I can tell)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg)

or go to 55 seconds, police do nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxECY1PXjiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxECY1PXjiM)

I think amongst all this bullshit it's also really important to note that there is absolutely zero documented evidence of the left attacking anyone at all. Trump completely fabricated the story about them "charging in with clubs." It never happened. Not a single photo or video of it happening has emerged.

Wrong, go to 2:45 ((not even ANTIFA that I can tell)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3orIUX2CAmQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3orIUX2CAmQ)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 21, 2017, 11:23:31 am
Poor Nazis. My heart bleeds for how much violence they have to suffer while advocating GENOCIDE.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 21, 2017, 11:34:40 am
But the south has developed, perhaps because they were crushed in their war, a need to believe that their history was something greater, more noble. It's become a part of their culture now, of how they see themselves.
The problem is, its a false perspective, and one that should be dropped. There was nothing 'noble' in the attempt to keep a race of people as slaves, and revisionist history on behalf of southerners (such as "it was about freedom/states rights") is all bunk that should be challenged.

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A poll taken by National Public Radio showed Americans think the monuments should remain, by more than a two to one margin. The margin was even higher among Republicans as just 6% felt they should be removed.
I hadn't heard about that poll, so I was skeptical. (I thought it might have been an online poll or something similarly non-scientific.) But its correct.. most Americans are fine with confederate monuments.

Personally though, I suspect that some people really aren't sure of exactly what the issues mean. They've fallen for the false "southern pride" narrative, and if people received more information at least some people might change their minds.

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I really don't give a shit about Nazis and klukkers. There really aren't that many of them, especially in Canada.
Keep in mind that even though there may be very few people on the fringes (i.e. who care enough to march with the nazis/KKK), we also have to consider those with milder racism... those who (for example) voted for trump because "OMG the immigrants are going to break into our homes and eat our children". By challenging the more extreme forms of racism, we will hopefully have an influence on the less extremist (but still racist) people in society.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 11:36:33 am
You are totally obfuscating, it's been explained again and again that the nazis are way worse and there is no comparison between the two sides.  Donald Trump is an idiot and equally idiotic are his statements on the topic.

There has been so much self-righteousness by the media on this topic. It really is getting hard to take. First, we all agree Trump is an idiot, a bundle of emotions with the self-control of a two year old. He's also ignorant and simple minded. Those who have said he's a media savvy guy know nothing about him. He's always been an idiot. This is the guy who said his daughter had great boobs and he'd love to boff her if she wasn't his daughter - on live radio. This is the guy who called up a radio station pretending to be someone else to brag about his sexual prowess with his mistress - like no one was going to recognize his voice. Trump is NOT media savvy. He's a less mature, more mean spirited version of Archie Bunker with inherited money. Everything he did and said on his TV show was scripted by someone else.

He DID unconditionally condemn racists, bigots and Nazis. His hangup seems to be the same as mine, which is that yes, they need to be condemned, but violence in the streets needs to be condemned no matter who is doing it. Note. Two issues here. A hateful mentality and belief system is one. No argument there that the Nazis are worse. Street brawls and riots, though, seem to involve two sides, both of them filled with hatred for the other side.

Were there 'good people' at the rally? It's hard to find, but my understanding is that not everyone who went was a Nazi or White Supremacist. I did catch an interview with one guy who went who said he was kind of disgusted with these people, but was in favor of free speech for everyone, and was really concerned about southern heritage.

What is Trump being so continuously denounced for? For saying there were some bad people on the other side? But there were. This is self-evident. A savvy media guy would know not to bring that up, but Trump isn't savvy about anything except higher end New York real estate.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 11:46:35 am
Well, I agree that I like to be friends who are like me but that has nothing to do with their outward appearances.  Generally it comes down to values and lifestyle. 

I must be special too.

I'm afraid not. If you read the cite it made it clear, as did the other two, that we choose people, and even places to live, based on how culturally compatible they are with our own values. Every city has those areas where people congregate because they're much alike. Ottawa has the Glebe, for example, where the precious progressives congregate. Boulder Colorado has the same reputation, as the cite points out. We wind up being friends with people who are the same economic class and have mostly the same levels of education and whose likes and dislikes tend to mirror our own. If you're a jock, who are your friends? Mostly jocks. You all love sports and go to games and watch them on TV. If you're a nerd, do you have a lot of jock friends? Probably not. If you're a progressive type, very progressive, your friends likely will be mostly of the same mentality. You probably aren't going to have a lot of devoted evangelical Christian pals. If you're gay, a lot of your friends will be gay and you'll like to live in a gay friendly area (thus gay villages in a number of cities).  If you love country music and rural life and drive a pickup truck you probably aren't going to be a progressive and won't want to live in places like the Glebe. You won't like the same music or TV shows either, won't read the same books and magazines, won't be into social media as much, if at all.

All of this is just within one society. Now when you bring in people from another society, one as vastly different as, say, Muslims, you're going to find them wanting to hang out together, too, and live in the same areas, consuming different media, going to different clubs and enjoying different things. And you're going to find a lot of Canadians not being happy living in their midst and moving out. Not because they're brown but because their whole culture is different.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 11:52:53 am
Poor Nazis. My heart bleeds for how much violence they have to suffer while advocating GENOCIDE.

You don't understand. We, as a society, let the Nazis have their dumb views and speak about their dumb ideas without violence so that we can have our dumb views and speak about our dumb ideas without violence.

And if you think there aren't a lot of people who think your ideas are dumb and offended by them to the point they'd like you to stop making them you're kidding yourself.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 21, 2017, 11:59:53 am
Were there 'good people' at the rally? It's hard to find, but my understanding is that not everyone who went was a Nazi or White Supremacist.
I'm sorry, but the rally was well publicized as a right wing "unite the right" white spremacist thing. And even if someone did show up at the rally expecting it to be about free speech, the minute they started chanting racist slogans and waving the swastika around was the minute they should have left (i.e. right away).
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I did catch an interview with one guy who went who said he was kind of disgusted with these people, but was in favor of free speech for everyone, and was really concerned about southern heritage.
Then this guy is an idiot. Probably a racist who is trying to justify his racist activities. "Oh no, I'm not a racist. I just think the statues are pretty. And ignore this nazi flag I'm carrying. And this white hood and robe I'm wearing? I'm going to a costume party after."

First of all, this has nothing to do with "free speech". Free speech is something between the government and the individual. It has nothing to do between individuals.  It is not an issue of free speech if you should say something I don't like and I decide to challenge you.

Secondly, as I have stated before, if he were really concerned about southern heritage, he'd become more knowledgable and realize that those statues are not 'historic' in any way, and were really put up to white-wash southern racism while at the same time giving the finger to black people.
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What is Trump being so continuously denounced for? For saying there were some bad people on the other side? But there were. This is self-evident. A savvy media guy would know not to bring that up, but Trump isn't savvy about anything except higher end New York real estate.
I cannot speak to every person, but I suspect the vast majority of the anti-racist crowd was peaceful, with the rather decent message "racism is wrong". On the other hand every one of the people on the nazi/KKK/racist side was a a douche bag. Every single one of them. And they all had the same repugnant message "Racism is good".

Trying to complain about "bad guys on both sides" is like Charles Manson claiming everyone is bad because hey they may have got a parking ticket! Sometimes the scale of douchebaggery is so great on one side compared to another that even mentioning problems on the other side is a sign of moral failure.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 12:07:06 pm
The problem is, its a false perspective, and one that should be dropped.

Maybe, but how many cultures have a false narrative about their past?
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Keep in mind that even though there may be very few people on the fringes (i.e. who care enough to march with the nazis/KKK), we also have to consider those with milder racism... those who (for example) voted for trump because "OMG the immigrants are going to break into our homes and eat our children".

And why is being against immigration a racist thing? Why are you even equating the two and linking anti-immigration to being a Nazi? Isn't that akin to calling those who believe in public health care a Communist? In other words, dumb?

There are many reasons to be against immigration as it stands, both cultural and economic. Our brainless prime minister doesn't understand that, but he's as ignorant, in his own way, as Trump, wrapped within his bubble all his life, seeing and befriending only those like him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 12:15:45 pm
I'm sorry, but the rally was well publicized as a right wing "unite the right" white spremacist thing.

And how often do people behave like idiots? Anyway, I'm just saying there might have been and probably someone told Trump that.

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First of all, this has nothing to do with "free speech". Free speech is something between the government and the individual. It has nothing to do between individuals.  It is not an issue of free speech if you should say something I don't like and I decide to challenge you.

If you try to hold a rally or meeting to promote or discuss your views and masses of people shut you down that's an issue of free speech.


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Trying to complain about "bad guys on both sides" is like Charles Manson claiming everyone is bad because hey they may have got a parking ticket! Sometimes the scale of douchebaggery is so great on one side compared to another that even mentioning problems on the other side is a sign of moral failure.

I disagree. You are again trying to establish that if ones views are repugnant one has no right to hold or state or promote those views. I deeply disagree. You, and the media are focusing in on how distasteful the message is when the truth is it doesn't matter how distasteful the message is. It doesn't matter how distasteful or hateful the messengers are either. The equating is not between the morality of their message and the morality of the message of those opposed to them. The equating is between their street violence and the street violence of those who sought to shut them down.

I know everyone wishes we could simply say that we can ban them from speaking their views aloud and then stop there, but that's not reality. If they are silenced, then the focus will shift to those who are on the far right but much less extreme. And after THEY are silenced, the focus will shift further to the left. The people shutting down the weekend rallies made no distinction between the people trying to hold them and Nazis, despite both groups proclaiming they wanted nothing to do with Nazis or White Supremacists. If we allow AN opinion to be silenced then ALL opinions are subject to the popularity test, and any that aren't popular will be shut down.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 21, 2017, 12:17:54 pm
You don't understand. We, as a society, let the Nazis have their dumb views and speak about their dumb ideas without violence so that we can have our dumb views and speak about our dumb ideas without violence.

And if you think there aren't a lot of people who think your ideas are dumb and offended by them to the point they'd like you to stop making them you're kidding yourself.
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2017, 12:36:25 pm
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.

Yeah, I don't get this opposite view at all.  These people would literally kill brown people and Jews if they were allowed to do so without and repercussions.  It's not only about their 'stupid views'.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 21, 2017, 12:49:09 pm
Anyway, I'm just saying there might have been...
Might have been what? A good person at the racist rally? Do you honestly think a good person would show up, see a bunch of swastikas, and still decide "this is where I should be"?
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...and probably someone told Trump that.
Even if someone told trump "there were good people on both sides", he should have rejected that notion as silly.
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If you try to hold a rally or meeting to promote or discuss your views and masses of people shut you down that's an issue of free speech.
No, its only an issue of free speech if the government tries to shut you down.

The racists held their rally in a public park. They took actions (chanting racist slogans) that were likely to get noticed. If they really wanted to JUST meet and discuss issues of how to be the bestest racist ever, they they could have selected a more private venue.
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I disagree. You are again trying to establish that if ones views are repugnant one has no right to hold or state or promote those views.
No, I'm not. I think people should be able to hold whatever disgusting views they want... whether its that one race is better than another, or that pepsi is better than coke, or that the leafs are better than the Senators. But that doesn't mean those views (and those holding them) shouldn't be soundly criticized and condemned at every opportunity.

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I deeply disagree. You, and the media are focusing in on how distasteful the message is when the truth is it doesn't matter how distasteful the message is. It doesn't matter how distasteful or hateful the messengers are either.
Yes it does. The distastefulness of the message may not be the ONLY factor, but it should be considered.

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The equating is not between the morality of their message and the morality of the message of those opposed to them. The equating is between their street violence and the street violence of those who sought to shut them down.
Well, as others have pointed out, the violence by the "left" appeared to be non-existent or at least extremely limited. The violence on the right ended up with a woman run down with a car. So even ignoring the message itself, how exactly are those to situations analogous?


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 21, 2017, 02:19:44 pm
Poor Nazis. My heart bleeds for how much violence they have to suffer while advocating GENOCIDE.

If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence they should have been arrested and charged, because threatening violence is & should be illegal.  That's how civilized civil society works:  the rule of law.  Too bad the police were next to useless, which is shameful.  Could have arrested a bunch of Nazis that day & thrown the book at them instead of firecrackers.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 21, 2017, 02:22:39 pm
Re: The "false narrative" of southern heratige///
Maybe, but how many cultures have a false narrative about their past?
Irrelevant. A dumb thing is dumb whether one person does it or a billion, and we should be prepared to call people out on it if their views are wrong.
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And why is being against immigration a racist thing? Why are you even equating the two and linking anti-immigration to being a Nazi?
While being against immigration may not necessarily make a person a racist, it depends on their reasoning behind wanting to limit immigration. Trump certainly used the racist 'dog whistle' of immigration during the election campaign, with his "mexican rapist" comments and his proposed muslim ban.
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Isn't that akin to calling those who believe in public health care a Communist?
The fact that there are dozens of countries in the world who have implemented public health care (in some fashion) but still maintain a capitalist economy in most other areas suggest that you do not have to be a communist to accept a public health care system.
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There are many reasons to be against immigration as it stands, both cultural...
Given the number of natural-born Canadians/Americans compared to the number of immigrants let in in a single year, I think our basic culture is safe.

Now if you had a specific issue with how people are assimilated into our country, then there might be a valid topic for discussion.
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...and economic.
Canada (and the U.S.) have a fairly low birth rate. We need immigration to help provide the population base to maintain our society.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 21, 2017, 02:28:04 pm
If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence they should have been arrested and charged, because threatening violence is & should be illegal.
I assume it all depends on context.

The courts probably look at it differently if someone says "There is a jewish person... go and attack him" than if someone says "german concentration camps were a good thing". In some countries, the first one would be considered an incitement to violence pretty much everwhere (since the person would be advocating for an immediate use of violence), while the second one (depending on the state of the country's hate speech laws) might be considered protected speech.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 06:12:47 pm
You're incredibly dim witted if you think my views are even remotely akin to advocating genocide. White supremacy is violence. Period. Violence is an appropriate response to genocidal maniacs.

I don't know how much more obvious I can be. If someone gets to stop the Nazis from speaking their offensive views, then they get to stop you too. Maybe it's because you aren't capable of seeing the forest for the trees. You zero in on Nazis and ignore the broader importance of freedom of speech. Or maybe you just don't have a problem with repressing other people's freedom of speech because you're convinced yours will never be repressed. But there is no way to write a law to repress the Nazis which will not leave you open to being repressed too if different people get into power. I'm not willing to take the chance just because of a small bunch of loonies and a somewhat larger group of offended snowflakes.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 06:17:27 pm
Yeah, I don't get this opposite view at all.  These people would literally kill brown people and Jews if they were allowed to do so without and repercussions.  It's not only about their 'stupid views'.

The Nazis are a pretty easy group to focus on. Their murderous beliefs are right there on the surface and aimed at particular groups. The Communists and Marxists, on the other hand, have always proclaimed a universal brotherhood. That hasn't stopped them from wantonly slaughtering millions who get in their way, or from instituting some of the world's most vile and repressive states. Their intolerance of opposing viewpoints is legendary and almost always  leads to concentration camps, re-education camps, and mass murder when they get into power.

So how's about this? You get to kill all the Nazis if we also kill all Communists and Marxists. That will include a significant portion of the NDP caucus, I'm afraid, along with a lot of the 'anti racist' bunch,  but hey, their views, if implemented, would literally kill unknowable numbers of people. So it's dangerous to allow them to go on expressing them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 06:31:01 pm
No, its only an issue of free speech if the government tries to shut you down.

Really? If a mob of fascists attacks an anti-racist gathering and shuts it down while the police do nothing that's okay with you?

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The racists held their rally in a public park. They took actions (chanting racist slogans) that were likely to get noticed.

So what? They have a right to express their opinions and beliefs.

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No, I'm not. I think people should be able to hold whatever disgusting views they want... whether its that one race is better than another, or that pepsi is better than coke, or that the leafs are better than the Senators. But that doesn't mean those views (and those holding them) shouldn't be soundly criticized and condemned at every opportunity.

Sure. But criticizing is one thing, shutting them down through violence is another. Anyone who supports free speech would be opposed to that.

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Yes it does. The distastefulness of the message may not be the ONLY factor, but it should be considered.

We don't need free speech laws to protect speech which is popular. Or as Oliver Wendell Holmes said "If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other it is the principle of free thought — not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.”
 
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Well, as others have pointed out, the violence by the "left" appeared to be non-existent or at least extremely limited. The violence on the right ended up with a woman run down with a car. So even ignoring the message itself, how exactly are those to situations analogous?

The violence from the Nazis was just as limited, except for one individual who went looney. If it hadn't of been we'd have heard of a lot of people hospitalized from being attacked by them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 21, 2017, 06:34:18 pm
Irrelevant. A dumb thing is dumb whether one person does it or a billion, and we should be prepared to call people out on it if their views are wrong.

I invite you, then, to tell native Canadians how stupid their cultural issues are and their continued desperate attempts to cling to a way of life from centuries past.

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Now if you had a specific issue with how people are assimilated into our country, then there might be a valid topic for discussion.Canada (and the U.S.) have a fairly low birth rate. We need immigration to help provide the population base to maintain our society.

There is no economic or logical argument in favour of our present immigration system (which will do little or nothing to redress our low birth rates), but this is not the topic to discuss it under.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on August 21, 2017, 07:29:27 pm
I don't see a moral equivalence here but a thug is a thug regardless of what side they are on. With the exception of the KKK, most of the white supremacist thugs were honest (or stupid) enough to show their faces. The mask wearing ANTIFA thugs are not. They don't really stand for anything except violence and are an anchor around the neck of peaceful protesters which actually helps the alt right.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 21, 2017, 08:20:53 pm
I really had to give this some thought, because we haven't had to face these kinds of people before.  I also had a lot of division in my friend circles as to how to handle it.  Peaceful response won out.  No antifa.  Not yet, anyway.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 21, 2017, 09:13:02 pm
I should have made my position on the Charlottesville thing more clear maybe.  Here it goes, & it's really simple:  obey the law.

Everyone who broke the law, you're a criminal & a jerk, I don't care your political leanings.  If you hit a bunch of people with your car, you're a really really lowlife criminal. If you protested "without a permit", who cares?? It's your legal constitutional right to protest these racist scumbags.  If you incited racist hate but not violence through speech, you're within your free speech limits legally but you're still a scumbag.  If you're Trump & you didn't condemn these racists outright from the very beginning that's your legal right but you're still scumbag.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 22, 2017, 10:55:05 am
I really had to give this some thought, because we haven't had to face these kinds of people before.  I also had a lot of division in my friend circles as to how to handle it.  Peaceful response won out.  No antifa.  Not yet, anyway.

Not yet? Kluckers and Nazis have been marching around since before you were born. Nothing has changed. There aren't more of them. They don't have more power. They're not causing more damage. Their beliefs aren't spreading. Just because the national media has suddenly discovered their existence and is breathlessly pumping out story after story about them does not mean they're any more of a factor in anyone's daily life or any more of a threat to peace and security than they were twenty or thirty or fifty years ago. Less, in fact. I can't even remember when there was a march by these people in Canada. The only thing growing on the right wing of Canada is anti-immigration groups, spawned by growing immigration  which is perceived by many to be out of control.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 22, 2017, 01:28:37 pm
If there were KKK/Nazis there advocating genocide or violence
You do know what Nazis and the KKK are, yeah? If so, what do you mean "if"?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 22, 2017, 01:33:05 pm
I don't know how much more obvious I can be. If someone gets to stop the Nazis from speaking their offensive views, then they get to stop you too. Maybe it's because you aren't capable of seeing the forest for the trees. You zero in on Nazis and ignore the broader importance of freedom of speech. Or maybe you just don't have a problem with repressing other people's freedom of speech because you're convinced yours will never be repressed. But there is no way to write a law to repress the Nazis which will not leave you open to being repressed too if different people get into power. I'm not willing to take the chance just because of a small bunch of loonies and a somewhat larger group of offended snowflakes.
I don't see it because it doesn't work that way. We bombed and killed Nazis in WWII, does that mean the government is going to bomb my neighbourhood next? You're pushing a slippery slope fallacy and expecting me to find it insightful. I don't because I don't think political views are the same as genocidal ones, neither should you or anyone else if you're the legal definition of a "reasonable" person.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 22, 2017, 01:37:28 pm
The Nazis are a pretty easy group to focus on. Their murderous beliefs are right there on the surface and aimed at particular groups. The Communists and Marxists, on the other hand, have always proclaimed a universal brotherhood. That hasn't stopped them from wantonly slaughtering millions who get in their way, or from instituting some of the world's most vile and repressive states.
Show me any writing from Marx or even Engels that advocates genocide. You're confusing authoritarian despotism for Communism. The difference is that the stated aims if Nazis and white supremacists are violent and genocidal. It takes a bastardization if Marx or complete ignorance of his historical observations to even remotely proclaim that the purpose of Communism is to "slaughter millions."
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 22, 2017, 03:43:24 pm
Not yet? Kluckers and Nazis have been marching around since before you were born.

You don't know how old I am.  I could be 100.

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Nothing has changed. There aren't more of them. They don't have more power. They're not causing more damage. Their beliefs aren't spreading.

Which is why I said 'not yet'.

 Just because the national media has suddenly discovered their existence and is breathlessly pumping out story after story about them does not mean they're any more of a factor in anyone's daily life or any more of a threat to peace and security than they were twenty or thirty or fifty years ago. Less, in fact. I can't even remember when there was a march by these people in Canada. The only thing growing on the right wing of Canada is anti-immigration groups, spawned by growing immigration  which is perceived by many to be out of control.
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 22, 2017, 04:12:59 pm
I don't see it because it doesn't work that way. We bombed and killed Nazis in WWII, does that mean the government is going to bomb my neighbourhood next? You're pushing a slippery slope fallacy and expecting me to find it insightful. I don't because I don't think political views are the same as genocidal ones, neither should you or anyone else if you're the legal definition of a "reasonable" person.

You're ignoring the fact that advocating genocide is illegal in both the US and Canada. That's why they don't do that. You might think (reasonably) that that's what they want, but they're not about to stand on a stage and call for the extermination of Jews or Blacks. Can you find such views on the internet? Sure, just as you can find lots of jihadi views on the internet. They pop up and disappear as they're taken down every day, put in place by antonymous hidden people who scurry away like roaches whenever you shine a light towards them.

The people in Charlottesville did not openly advocate genocide, any more than the mafia and hells angels, who, lets' face it are ALL criminals, openly  commit crimes, any more than Muslim extremists in the West openly call for the deaths of Jews (although some of them have been caught doing so in arabic in mosques). As long as they don't, they're allowed to get together and talk about "white pride" and the superiority of the white race and how Jews control the world under the direction of George Soros till the cows come home.

If you ban that because you 'say' they're genocidal then you can ban anyone's speech on the unproven presumption they have bad motives. And I'm certainly not going to accept the Left making decisions about what motives are unacceptable given how flexible they have always been in the use of terms like racist and hate-monger. When a left wing group can call a professor who won't use made-up gender nouns a fascist I'm not going to accept any of their accusations as legitimate without solid proof.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 22, 2017, 04:20:37 pm
Show me any writing from Marx or even Engels that advocates genocide. You're confusing authoritarian despotism for Communism.

Gee, how could I do that? It wouldn't be because every Communist government in history has been run by an authoritarian despot, would it? And I can see that same angry attitude among leftists in the Canada. They're so damned certain that what they want is for the betterment of mankind, especially the downtrodden, that they are infuriated at anyone who opposes their policies. After all, if you want to do something which will be a wonderful thing and help the downtrodden, and someone opposes that, why they must want to hurt the downtrodden! That makes them evil! Enemies of the people! And what happens to enemies of the people when the revolution comes?

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It takes a bastardization if Marx or complete ignorance of his historical observations to even remotely proclaim that the purpose of Communism is to "slaughter millions."

But the Nazis will tell you their policies are for the betterment of mankind, that getting rid of defective elements will improve the quality of the species and society will be more enlightened and more peaceful, with less crime and everyone working together. Wouldn't that be nice!?

The purpose of Communism is not to slaughter millions. That's just the way it always seems to work out. Enemies of the people can't be allowed to stand in the way of forming a more perfect society, after all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 22, 2017, 08:31:06 pm
You don't know how old I am.  I could be 100.

They were holding marches 100 years ago. Well, not the Nazis, but the klan.

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Which is why I said 'not yet'.



According to the Southern Poverty Law Center there were once 4 million KKK members in the US. Their estimate now is about 5000-8000. There are several nazi(ish) groups in America, the largest, the national socialists, has 400 members. In Canada, the Heritage Front had 18 members but disbanded. The media and progressives are going batshit crazy over groups who couldn't fill a moderate sized arena in the US and couldn't fill a restaurant in Canada, most of whom are all mouth.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 22, 2017, 08:52:14 pm
I'm afraid not. If you read the cite it made it clear, as did the other two, that we choose people, and even places to live, based on how culturally compatible they are with our own values. Every city has those areas where people congregate because they're much alike. Ottawa has the Glebe, for example, where the precious progressives congregate. Boulder Colorado has the same reputation, as the cite points out. We wind up being friends with people who are the same economic class and have mostly the same levels of education and whose likes and dislikes tend to mirror our own. If you're a jock, who are your friends? Mostly jocks. You all love sports and go to games and watch them on TV. If you're a nerd, do you have a lot of jock friends? Probably not. If you're a progressive type, very progressive, your friends likely will be mostly of the same mentality. You probably aren't going to have a lot of devoted evangelical Christian pals. If you're gay, a lot of your friends will be gay and you'll like to live in a gay friendly area (thus gay villages in a number of cities).  If you love country music and rural life and drive a pickup truck you probably aren't going to be a progressive and won't want to live in places like the Glebe. You won't like the same music or TV shows either, won't read the same books and magazines, won't be into social media as much, if at all.

All of this is just within one society. Now when you bring in people from another society, one as vastly different as, say, Muslims, you're going to find them wanting to hang out together, too, and live in the same areas, consuming different media, going to different clubs and enjoying different things. And you're going to find a lot of Canadians not being happy living in their midst and moving out. Not because they're brown but because their whole culture is different.

See this is where you and I have had very different experiences with immigrants and integration and see what we want to see.  I know you have the Muslim neighbour who loves 'going back home' and all around you what you see is people unwilling to assimilate but my friends are from all around the world, including myself, and we're all pretty Canadianized.

I would have as much of a difficult time befriending a newly arrived immigrant from my own ethnic background as I would a newly arrived Russian or Chinese or African.  Their kids and my kids will be just fine though from what I see in my kid's classroom where they aren't at all concerned about each other's race/ethnicity.

This is why I don't agree with a Canadian values test.  I could not befriend an oil-loving immigrant-hating Albertan (sorry for the strereotype) or a Trump loving conservative American but I have friends who are franco Quebecois who believe in the same fiscal and environmental policies as myself.  Language and geography don't mean all that much.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 22, 2017, 10:03:28 pm
Back on topic - that is some rally tonight. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on August 22, 2017, 10:21:22 pm
Among all the other madness - Trump basically says there won't be a NAFTA deal.  Canada should just walk away now.  Lets see if he can even get rid of NAFTA - I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 22, 2017, 10:24:12 pm
Has he actually done anything he said he's gonna do in order for us to be worried about NAFTA?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 22, 2017, 10:37:26 pm
Someone will show him a picture of Trudeau in a miniskirt tomorrow and he'll forget all about tearing up NAFTA.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 22, 2017, 10:51:40 pm
Hey, guys! Let's split the AntiFa topic into a new thread.  I want to talk about what a fucking senile imbecile the POTUS is.

He's having a big rally in Phoenix, and there are rampant rumours that he might pardon America's Toughest Sheriff, Joe Arpaio.  And as one of Trump's biggest supporters, I wouldn't be surprised if America's Biggest Asshole did indeed get a pardon.

America's Dumbest Shitbag is due to face jail time for willfully defying court rulings regarding racial profiling. This is pretty much like convicting Al Capone of tax evasion, or convicting Charles Manson of loitering.  Arpaio is a human shit stain. I think prison violence and prison rape are reprehensible and I normally wouldn't wish them on anyone. But given the humiliation and cruelty deliberately inflicted on prisoners by Arpaio, and given the deaths of individuals in Maricopa County custody due to deliberate denial of medical care, Joe deserves anything happens to him in prison.  Which won't be anything, because he'll no doubt be serving his time in a powder-puff prison, not a real prison.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 23, 2017, 12:06:22 am
Every single day there is something with his administration, and not something small, major things.  Some days more than one.

I was just watching CNN and Don Lemon paused for a moment when thinking of the word to describe Trump's speech and his guest said 'rant' which was very fitting. 

I was talking to my mom earlier saying what a shit-show this administration is and how I've never seen anything like it.  She said she's 70 and she's never seen anything like it either.  Even Nixon she said was one issue and long-standing, it wasn't the way this administration is crumbling every day.

Firing everyone around him, bringing in all his kids, ranting about starting nuclear wars, praising the 'good' nazis, personally profiting off playing golf and blowing through the secret service budget by August, wanting to see himself depicted in good light as a briefing while not caring about actual intelligence briefings... it's all so surreal.

It makes George Bush and his Iraqi genocide seem so tame.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 23, 2017, 06:41:20 am
Most of it is bullshit though.  He can't seem to actually do anything.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 23, 2017, 11:36:54 am
Trump is a narcissist, and the reporter who got it best on MSNBC said that really, all Trump cares about is the applause. He'll say and do whatever that Trump base will cheer for. Being president is no fun. Locked in a boring building without a view and surrounded by boring people trying to get him to work? Who needs that when he can be out in front of cheering crowds. He likes running for president. He doesn't like being president. I would not be surprised if he decided not to even run for re-election. His base would probably still show up to cheer him afterward anyway He'll be 75 by then. does he want to spend another boring four years in a building which is practically a slum dwelling? The toilet fixtures aren't even gold, for Christ's sakes!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2017, 11:43:15 am
Most of it is bullshit though.  He can't seem to actually do anything.

And since he and MCConnell aren't on speaking terms he won't get much done without senate support.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 23, 2017, 11:56:53 am
Has he actually done anything he said he's gonna do in order for us to be worried about NAFTA?
Well, he did withdraw the U.S. from the TPP. Granted the history was a bit different... NAFTA is a long-established trade agreement and TPP hadn't been implemented yet, but it shows a willingness to walk away from trade agreements.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2017, 01:44:26 pm
Well Donald stuck pretty close to his teleprompter during today's speech. I would imagine he was strongly advised not to go all wonky in front of a room full of veterans.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 23, 2017, 04:35:35 pm
Did the "blacks for Trump" guy catch your eye yesterday?  He totally did mine and I wondered what's wrong with him.  It turns out, plenty.  He's a nutjob.

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/27/that-blacks-for-trump-guy-at-donald-trumps-rallies-is-even-weirder-than-you-think/

ETA, it's funny, as a minority I've had politicians want to use images with me in marketing (while sidelining my white husband), so I know they all do it, but seriously?  This is the best they could come up with for the directly-behind-the-president angle?  Just sad.

 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2017, 04:47:16 pm
Did the "blacks for Trump" guy catch your eye yesterday?  He totally did mine and I wondered what's wrong with him.  It turns out, plenty.  He's a nutjob.

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/27/that-blacks-for-trump-guy-at-donald-trumps-rallies-is-even-weirder-than-you-think/

ETA, it's funny, as a minority I've had politicians want to use images with me in marketing (while sidelining my white husband), so I know they all do it, but seriously?  This is the best they could come up with for the directly-behind-the-president angle?  Just sad.

Interesting. I had a feeling it had to be a put up job. Who the hell in their right mind, (especially a Black man) would stand upand hold a sign in support of a man who has demonstrated his racism multiple times.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 23, 2017, 05:11:04 pm
It's probable that the reason they're so desperate to put a black person in a visible position is to mend his racist image, but I can't believe his handlers haven't done their proper homework into the guy.

Having a sea of white faces (a la Paul Ryan) is honestly better than exploiting a mentally-disturbed individual as your token black guy.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 23, 2017, 06:08:53 pm
It makes George Bush and his Iraqi genocide seem so tame.

Trump is a walking disaster, but to compare his failures with W. Bush is absolutely ridiculous.  Bush killed hundreds of thousands of people & destroyed nations based on lies.  It's an absolute joke that Bush & admin were never seriously investigated.

Where was the mainstream media when Bush & his cronies were doing such obviously horrible things?  Some of them hammered on Bush, like MSNBC and others, but nothing like how virtually every outlet not obviously rightwing piles on Trump.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on August 23, 2017, 06:09:56 pm
Hey, guys! Let's split the AntiFa topic into a new thread.  I want to talk about what a fucking senile imbecile the POTUS is.

Good idea.  Your idea so you get to start up the new thread cuz I'm lazy  :P
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 23, 2017, 06:46:37 pm
And since he and MCConnell aren't on speaking terms he won't get much done without senate support.
I read that today.  What an ass.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 24, 2017, 12:10:35 pm
Did the "blacks for Trump" guy catch your eye yesterday?  He totally did mine and I wondered what's wrong with him.  It turns out, plenty.  He's a nutjob.
They should have gotten him the same place they got their Asian trump supporters...

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/margaret-cho-arizona-republicans_us_599606fce4b0a2608a6b0a66
The Arizona Republican Party was caught in an eye roll-inducing gaffe this week when it mistakenly used a photo of outspoken comedian Margaret Cho to represent Asian Americans on its website.... The error is particularly laughable given Cho’s brand. The 48-year-old actress-comedian, who identifies as queer, has been an outspoken critic of President Donald Trump and the Republican party as a whole
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 24, 2017, 12:16:34 pm
Trump is a walking disaster, but to compare his failures with W. Bush is absolutely ridiculous.  Bush killed hundreds of thousands of people & destroyed nations based on lies.  It's an absolute joke that Bush & admin were never seriously investigated.
I say this as someone who initially supported the Iraq invasion. (I felt that, even without Bush's lies, there was enough justification to support an invasion. Remember, the alternative to the war would have been Saddam continuing in power, a person who also racked up a pretty substantial body count over the years.)...

Give it time. Bush may have made mistakes in Iraq, but at least there was some justification to the actions. Trump is basically stumbling around blindly. If Trump doesn't start any wars, it won't be because of any talent or ability on his part, it will either be due to dumb luck, or others stepping in to prevent him from doing something foolish.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 24, 2017, 12:25:29 pm
(https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/silver-approval-08241.png?w=575&h=495&quality=90&strip=info)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2017, 12:32:53 pm
I say this as someone who initially supported the Iraq invasion. (I felt that, even without Bush's lies, there was enough justification to support an invasion. Remember, the alternative to the war would have been Saddam continuing in power, a person who also racked up a pretty substantial body count over the years.)...

Give it time. Bush may have made mistakes in Iraq, but at least there was some justification to the actions. Trump is basically stumbling around blindly. If Trump doesn't start any wars, it won't be because of any talent or ability on his part, it will either be due to dumb luck, or others stepping in to prevent him from doing something foolish.

I would disagree somewhat on Iraq, Bush's justification for the invasion was WMD, and the UN personnel knew damn he had none, and none of course were found hence the ICC declaring the invasion criminal. As one experienced American weapons inspector associated with the UN put it, "we know he used to have them because we have the receipts, but he gave them all up during the previous inspection"
I totally agree on Trump. James Clapper's recent comments about Trump's wild gyrations were especially chilling when he focused on his access to the nuclear codes. I'm old enough to vaguely remember that doomsday clock thing and I hate the idea of going back there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 24, 2017, 01:10:56 pm
I would disagree somewhat on Iraq, Bush's justification for the invasion was WMD, and the UN personnel knew damn he had none, and none of course were found hence the ICC declaring the invasion criminal. As one experienced American weapons inspector associated with the UN put it, "we know he used to have them because we have the receipts, but he gave them all up during the previous inspection"
At the risk of derailing the thread... I never said the invasion was justified due to what Bush said. There were other issues going on... Saddam's continued support of terrorism (e.g. payments to the families of suicide bombers), continued suppression of his own people (the latest was his actions against the Marsh Arabs, which continued right up until the invasion, so it wasn't some long-past event.)

As for the WMD, keep in mind that at the time the argument by those involved usually was not "We know he doesn't have them". The argument was "Give us more time". (And Saddam wasn't fully complying with the demands of the weapons inspectors. Basically he was bluffing, and ended up getting caught on it.)

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I totally agree on Trump. James Clapper's recent comments about Trump's wild gyrations were especially chilling when he focused on his access to the nuclear codes. I'm old enough to vaguely remember that doomsday clock thing and I hate the idea of going back there.
Someone suggested increasing the length of the nuclear launch codes to over 140 characters so Trump couldn't accidentally tweet them out.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2017, 01:35:29 pm
At the risk of derailing the thread... I never said the invasion was justified due to what Bush said. There were other issues going on... Saddam's continued support of terrorism (e.g. payments to the families of suicide bombers), continued suppression of his own people (the latest was his actions against the Marsh Arabs, which continued right up until the invasion, so it wasn't some long-past event.)

As for the WMD, keep in mind that at the time the argument by those involved usually was not "We know he doesn't have them". The argument was "Give us more time". (And Saddam wasn't fully complying with the demands of the weapons inspectors. Basically he was bluffing, and ended up getting caught on it.)

Not according to what some highly experienced UN weapons inspectors told me over dinner one evening in Basrah.

Someone suggested increasing the length of the nuclear launch codes to over 140 characters so Trump couldn't accidentally tweet them out.
I never thought of that, but what the hell, it might just work.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2017, 10:18:03 pm
And if he shuts down the government over not getting funding for his stupid fucking wall, and the Dow craters and I lose money in my measly portfolio, I'm going to go to Washington and kick doofus right in the arse.

I''l probably have to stand in line.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 25, 2017, 09:58:56 am
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/donald-trump-hurricane-harvey-natural-disaster-response-test/index.html

Here it comes.  The test of both the presidency and the moral character of the country, which are both heavily favoured to fail.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 25, 2017, 02:05:13 pm
And if he shuts down the government over not getting funding for his stupid fucking wall, and the Dow craters and I lose money in my measly portfolio, I'm going to go to Washington and kick doofus right in the arse.
I don't know how to tell you this, but the Dow is probably going to fall anyways.

While Trump likes to take credit for the recent rise in stock prices, the fact is the economy had already been improving under Obama (which is probably the main reason for the increase in the Dow.)

But between Trump's protectionist policies, and his inability to pass any legislation, you're probably going to see the economy falter. Plus, elimination of financial regulations will give us a bubble similar to the one pre-2008.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 25, 2017, 02:15:09 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/donald-trump-hurricane-harvey-natural-disaster-response-test/index.html

Here it comes.  The test of both the presidency and the moral character of the country, which are both heavily favoured to fail.
Don't worry... the hurricane is being reported on by CNN, so I'm sure Trump will be sure to label it "Fake News".

"Its a chinese hoax! Besides, its all Obama's fault!"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 25, 2017, 02:41:59 pm
As Nero fiddled while Rome burned, so Trump will likely be swinging a golf club at Camp David while Texas floods.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 25, 2017, 10:56:18 pm
Trump pardons Arpaio, who is nothing more than a racist redneck asshole who should be in jail, because the current focus is on the the storm coming ashore in Texas. Can you scumbag approving scumbag?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 25, 2017, 11:36:40 pm
He's having a big rally in Phoenix, and there are rampant rumours that he might pardon America's Toughest Sheriff, Joe Arpaio.  And as one of Trump's biggest supporters, I wouldn't be surprised if America's Biggest Asshole did indeed get a pardon.

America's Dumbest Shitbag is due to face jail time for willfully defying court rulings regarding racial profiling. This is pretty much like convicting Al Capone of tax evasion, or convicting Charles Manson of loitering.  Arpaio is a human shit stain. I think prison violence and prison rape are reprehensible and I normally wouldn't wish them on anyone. But given the humiliation and cruelty deliberately inflicted on prisoners by Arpaio, and given the deaths of individuals in Maricopa County custody due to deliberate denial of medical care, Joe deserves anything happens to him in prison.  Which won't be anything, because he'll no doubt be serving his time in a powder-puff prison, not a real prison.

Well he actually did it.

Arpaio is a piece of dog shit.

Maricopa County had hundreds of rape kits that never got tested because Sheriff Joe blew too much money chasing Obama birth certificate conspiracy idiocy.  Maricopa County had prisoners who died in custody because Sheriff Joe didn't want to provide medical care to prisoners because "jail is supposed to be tough."

Sheriff Joe is an authoritarian thug, and I guess given Trump's hard-on for other authoritarian thugs like Putin and Dutarte, I guess it was obvious that Trump would pardon a piece of crap like that.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 25, 2017, 11:49:38 pm
Meanwhile, Actual Nazi Sebastian Gorka has resigned from the Trump administration.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/08/25/breaking-sebastian-gorka-resigns-from-trump-administration/

Actual Nazi Sebastian Gorka wrote:

Quote
“[G]iven recent events, it is clear to me that forces that do not support the MAGA promise are – for now – ascendant within the White House,” Gorka wrote. “As a result, the best and most effective way I can support you, Mr. President, is from outside the People’s House.”

“Regrettably, outside of yourself, the individuals who most embodied and represented the policies that will ‘Make America Great Again,’ have been internally countered, systematically removed, or undermined in recent months. This was made patently obvious as I read the text of your speech on Afghanistan this week…

“The fact that those who drafted and approved the speech removed any mention of Radical Islam or radical Islamic terrorism proves that a crucial element of your presidential campaign has been lost…

“Just as worrying, when discussing our future actions in the region, the speech listed operational objectives without ever defining the strategic victory conditions we are fighting for. This omission should seriously disturb any national security professional, and any American who is unsatisfied with the last 16 years of disastrous policy decisions which have led to thousands of Americans killed and trillions of taxpayer dollars spent in ways that have not brought security or victory.”

Reading between the lines, it seems likely that Actual Nazi Sebastian Gorka is disappointed that alt-rightists and Trumptards like Steve Bannon, The Mooch, and similar have been kicked out of the administration by John Kelly and the Republican establishment (or "globalist cucks", as the alt-right refers to them.)

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on August 26, 2017, 06:46:32 am
Well he actually did it.

Arpaio is a piece of dog shit.

Maricopa County had hundreds of rape kits that never got tested because Sheriff Joe blew too much money chasing Obama birth certificate conspiracy idiocy.  Maricopa County had prisoners who died in custody because Sheriff Joe didn't want to provide medical care to prisoners because "jail is supposed to be tough."

Sheriff Joe is an authoritarian thug, and I guess given Trump's hard-on for other authoritarian thugs like Putin and Dutarte, I guess it was obvious that Trump would pardon a piece of crap like that.


 -k
This fucker literally set up a tent city in the middle of the desert for Latinos and bragged that it was a concentration camp.

There's also at least 32 documented cases of child molestation that he didn't pursue because the kids were Latino.

Trump just set the precedent that cops can violate the constitution with impunity. I hope Arpaio realizes that a pardon results in a guilty verdict that cannot be overturned and in America that opens him up to civil lawsuits.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 26, 2017, 12:20:20 pm
Reading between the lines, it seems likely that Actual Nazi Sebastian Gorka is disappointed that alt-rightists and Trumptards like Steve Bannon, The Mooch, and similar have been kicked out of the administration by John Kelly and the Republican establishment (or "globalist cucks", as the alt-right refers to them.)

So it turns out that Actual Nazi Sebastian Gorka was fired before his so-called "resignation".

Gorka: "You can't fire me! I quit!"

Kelly: "You can't quit, you don't work here."

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 26, 2017, 01:57:33 pm
So while all eyes were focused on the storm raging into Texas, Trump uses the opportunity to kick out his blowhard buddy Gorka, pardon his convicted felon/racist buddy Arpaio, and sign off on a ban on transgender military recruits. But I'm sure he enjoyed his golf outing up at Camp David.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on August 26, 2017, 02:38:54 pm
This fucker literally set up a tent city in the middle of the desert for Latinos and bragged that it was a concentration camp.

There's also at least 32 documented cases of child molestation that he didn't pursue because the kids were Latino.

Trump just set the precedent that cops can violate the constitution with impunity. I hope Arpaio realizes that a pardon results in a guilty verdict that cannot be overturned and in America that opens him up to civil lawsuits.

On Bill Maher last night they were saying that it's not really about Arpaio but he's sending a message to everyone in the Russian collusion that he'll bail them out even if they get convicted of anything.  It kinda makes sense.

 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on August 27, 2017, 11:55:43 am
On Bill Maher last night they were saying that it's not really about Arpaio but he's sending a message to everyone in the Russian collusion that he'll bail them out even if they get convicted of anything.  It kinda makes sense.

Yeah. The liberal media is rubbing its hands with glee thinking Mueuller will be able to rid them of Trump, but I'm not at all confident. One of the primary ways the feds investigate complicated financial crimes is by getting enough evidence to convict one guy, then getting him to rat on the rest. That's not going to work when the head rat can simply wave his finger and grant them all immunity. Which means, since nobody is likely to talk, that Mueller has to find actual, direct evidence of things which are rarely written down.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 27, 2017, 11:58:56 am
I doubt the Republicans would do anything if he fired "Mueuller".
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 27, 2017, 12:07:28 pm
I doubt the Republicans would do anything if he fired "Mueuller".

Except he can't fire mueller, that's the job of the AG, and the current one has recused himself. so Trump would have to fire him, and the next in line has also said he wouldn't fire mueller. So Trump would have to do a lot of firing to get to meuller. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on August 27, 2017, 01:11:50 pm
On Bill Maher last night they were saying that it's not really about Arpaio but he's sending a message to everyone in the Russian collusion that he'll bail them out even if they get convicted of anything.  It kinda makes sense.

I disagree. If you're looking at it that way, you're not thinking like Trump.  For Trump, it's definitely about Arpaio.

First off, Arpaio is his buddy. They've been personal friends for years. Second, Arpaio is the personification of Trump's "build the wall" rhetoric. As far as Trump and the Trumptard base are concerned, Arpaio is a hero, a patriot fighting back against the brown horde that's taking over the country. They think that Arpaio was, as Trump put it last week, "convicted for doing his job."  It's disgusting, but that's what they think.

Trump has felt strongly about this all along.  Trump wanted Jeff Sessions to get the case thrown out of court.  This matters to Trump personally, and it matters to the core Trump voter. This pardon is wildly popular with the Trumptard voter base.

Paul Manafort or Michael Flynn, on the other hand?  They don't matter to the Trumptards.  The only people who'd really support a pardon for Manafort or Flynn are Trump himself and the immediate families of Flynn and Manafort.  Pardoning Russian double-agents would be a lot harder to sell to the voting public than pardoning an 85 year old "patriot".  The core Trump voter might accept it, but I don't think anybody else would. And the Trumptards on their own don't have enough votes to win elections.  They need the support of the undecideds and the never-Hillary voters and the non-votes of the apathetic.

The pardon of Arpaio might hand seats in the House of Represenatives and an Arizona Senate seat to the Democrats, as latino voters will come out en-masse against the Republicans in the 2018 mid-terms elections.  Pardoning Russian conspirators would only worsen the situation for Republicans.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2017, 01:39:25 am
Trump hugging racist, convicted felon, so called lawman Arpaio. Could it get much sleazier?
Birds of a feather is about all you can deduce.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2017, 01:51:21 pm
I wonder if Trump will follow through with his threat to shut down the government if he doesn't get the funding for his stupid wall. That will be very "helpful" for the people in Texas who's homes have washed away due to Harvey, and the federal government closes up shop.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2017, 04:12:53 pm
Trump displays his ineptitude yet again just now. Why could he not display empathy for the people suffering from the storm in Texas without reading from a page with his finger going word by word, and sounding like a grade school public speaking event? Of course he dodged the very first question regarding if he still intnds to shut down the government while a lot of people are needing help.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 28, 2017, 05:56:27 pm
I don't appreciate dragging the US presidential shitshow into the Texas disaster, personally.  As with 9/11, and Katrina, the president has little to do with operations.  Ultimately he IS responsible for successes and failures but blaming him for most of it is just opportunism IMO.

Now if he does something stupid like shut down the government over the wall, and stops disaster relief well that would be easily attributable to him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 28, 2017, 06:30:56 pm
I don't appreciate dragging the US presidential shitshow into the Texas disaster, personally.  As with 9/11, and Katrina, the president has little to do with operations.  Ultimately he IS responsible for successes and failures but blaming him for most of it is just opportunism IMO.

Now if he does something stupid like shut down the government over the wall, and stops disaster relief well that would be easily attributable to him.
How about plans to cut FEMA funding in the upcoming budget? Granted, it is only a budget proposal and the effect wouldn't happen for another few years (so it wouldn't impact the current hurricane relief work.) Still, its setting the table for big problems later on.

http://time.com/money/4918458/trump-budget-targest-disaster-response/
When President Trump released his proposed budget earlier this year, it included cuts across the board — including hundreds of millions from programs that help Americans cope with disasters like Hurricane Harvey.

Or how about his roll-back of regulations regarding infrastructure (which again won't impact things immediately but will have a long term impact)?

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-revoked-obama-flood-protections-hurricane-harvey-texas-656050
As parts of Texas and Louisiana experience historic flooding related to Hurricane Harvey, the White House is defending President Donald Trump’s recent decision to revoke Obama-era flood risk regulations...The 2015 order established a federal flood risk management standard and said that for projects using federal funds, developers must take certain measures to assess the flood risk.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 28, 2017, 06:52:27 pm
How about plans to cut FEMA funding in the upcoming budget? Granted, it is only a budget proposal and the effect wouldn't happen for another few years (so it wouldn't impact the current hurricane relief work.) Still, its setting the table for big problems later on.

I read somewhere that FEMA doesn't do the actual relief.  And they make extra budget requests for disasters.  And it has nothing to do with today as you have acknowledged.

There is nothing from this president on the current state of affairs that I can see, and politicizing it won't win any points either.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 28, 2017, 07:34:38 pm
https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/902323654033371136
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 29, 2017, 12:02:35 pm
I read somewhere that FEMA doesn't do the actual relief.
Some of the things FEMA does:

- Helps train responders prior to any disasters
- Helps coordinate responses once the disasters hit
- Provides funding for areas to help rebuild

All of which require money (which Trump is cutting back on).

Quote
And they make extra budget requests for disasters.
Some of the functionality that FEMA is involved with (such as training) is an on-going thing. You need to do it BEFORE any disaster hits.

Quote
And it has nothing to do with today as you have acknowledged.
True. But I don't think its too out of line to remind people "You know that great way FEMA handled this disaster? Well, if Trump has his way it won't happen again".

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 30, 2017, 05:02:50 pm
I notice Trump stuck to his teleprompter today. I guess the grown ups with him reminded him he is not on a campaign tour, and they possibly he should mention at least a few words about the victims who have lost so much to this wicked storm. "USA and POTUS" hats along with Melania's super high heels gives further confirmation of his character.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on August 30, 2017, 05:23:29 pm
I wonder if he spoke to ANYBODY in congress about his tax plan yet...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 30, 2017, 07:13:48 pm
I wonder if he spoke to ANYBODY in congress about his tax plan yet...

I think he's simply waiting for congress to give it to him. He doesn't seem to have any actual plans, just likes to make comments to appease his base, and then hopes like hell someone will come up with an idea. So far not much to show.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on August 31, 2017, 09:44:10 am
I think he's simply waiting for congress to give it to him. He doesn't seem to have any actual plans, just likes to make comments to appease his base, and then hopes like hell someone will come up with an idea. So far not much to show.
I remember reading how Trump's budget plans are put together....His advisors go through his previous speeches, tweets and interviews for any comments the president may have made. They then put together actual numbers based on his (more or less) random comments. I suspect his tax plans will be similar.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on August 31, 2017, 10:27:53 am
I remember reading how Trump's budget plans are put together....His advisors go through his previous speeches, tweets and interviews for any comments the president may have made. They then put together actual numbers based on his (more or less) random comments. I suspect his tax plans will be similar.

They must be working day and night to get through all those tweets.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2017, 10:34:33 am
Trump orders 3 Russian posts closed in the US and the one in San Francisco has smoke coming out of the chimney for the first time, and on the hottest day of the year so far. What's being burned I wonder.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-russia-consulate-20170901-story.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 02, 2017, 11:00:30 am
Trump orders 3 Russian posts closed in the US and the one in San Francisco has smoke coming out of the chimney for the first time, and on the hottest day of the year so far. What's being burned I wonder.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-russia-consulate-20170901-story.html

The FBI has been pushing for the San Francisco consulate to be closed for decades. It's basically a center for espionage against US high technology and defense contractors.

It's worth noting that according to Bloomberg news the Trump administration made a back channel offer to Russia to give them back those seized properties in exchange for a few restrictions on their activities. The Russians responded by tossing out hundreds of US diplomats.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2017, 09:27:44 pm
Trump caught in yet another lie over his claim that Obama tapped his phones at Trump Tower. How far down the rabbit hole does his credibility have to descend before the wing nut right wingers who voted for him sit up and take notice?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/02/politics/justice-department-trump-tower-wiretap/index.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 04, 2017, 08:25:46 am
Trump wants to end DACA but it's not a done deal.  It would be good to see this fail, as healthcare has. 

It does feel, though, that the unhinged element of Trump has been somewhat dampered by Kelly's running of the office.  We haven't had attacks on Morning Joe or random bullshit.  Then again, that may mean we're due.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 04, 2017, 08:44:52 am
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-daca/trump-to-scrap-protection-for-dreamers-give-congress-six-months-to-fix-idUSKCN1BF02F

More details - he's given it to congress to 'fix', but with most top Republicans against scrapping DACA, and Trump's general hands-off policy/animosity towards congressional Republicans it may be watered down or come to nothing.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2017, 11:56:51 am
Trump wants to end DACA but it's not a done deal.  It would be good to see this fail, as healthcare has. 

It does feel, though, that the unhinged element of Trump has been somewhat dampered by Kelly's running of the office.  We haven't had attacks on Morning Joe or random bullshit.  Then again, that may mean we're due.

I would put my money on "we're due". Trump seems to be able to control his anger so long when he's criticized or snubbed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2017, 02:03:25 pm
Speaking of money, here's yet another "brilliant " idea from Trump, he tweets this am that he is threatening to cut off all trade with anyone who does business with NK. Well there goes not only China, the US' largest trading partner, but also South Korea, India, Russia, and a number of others. Australia would also be hard hit. Trump brags about being an astute businessman and yet he seems bent on creating a global recession.
C'mon Mueller, get that obstruction case going so rhe US etal can be rid of this jerk.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/03/north-korea-bomb-trumps-trade-threat-to-china-not-seen-as-credible
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 04, 2017, 03:28:31 pm
Speaking of money, here's yet another "brilliant " idea from Trump, he tweets this am that he is threatening to cut off all trade with anyone who does business with NK. Well there goes not only China, the US' largest trading partner, but also South Korea, India, Russia, and a number of others. Australia would also be hard hit. Trump brags about being an astute businessman and yet he seems bent on creating a global recession.
C'mon Mueller, get that obstruction case going so rhe US etal can be rid of this jerk.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/03/north-korea-bomb-trumps-trade-threat-to-china-not-seen-as-credible

If we're not going to militarily attack North Korea, and I don't think the odds are good of doing so, the only way of reigning them in is to deprive them of the money needed to pay for Kim's fancy flying toys. China stands in the way of that. It has been paying lip service to western demands on North Korea for decades while secretly keeping fat boy in business. They're more worried about a unified Korea on their border, or lots of North Korean refugees if Kim goes down than anything he does in terms of nuclear capability.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 04, 2017, 04:44:14 pm
If we're not going to militarily attack North Korea, and I don't think the odds are good of doing so, the only way of reigning them in is to deprive them of the money needed to pay for Kim's fancy flying toys. China stands in the way of that. It has been paying lip service to western demands on North Korea for decades while secretly keeping fat boy in business. They're more worried about a unified Korea on their border, or lots of North Korean refugees if Kim goes down than anything he does in terms of nuclear capability.

Umm, Trump stopping trade with China won't stop China from doing business with NK. Pissing off China, South Korea and the others would only serve to isolate the US financially in the same way Trump has done politically. Another type of "wall" I suppose?

I wish I had your confidence that Trump won't try to rain down some of his "fire and fury" on Kim.

Perhaps cooler heads will keep the "nuclear football" out of Trump's reach as they did with Nixon in his final days in office. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 04, 2017, 06:07:52 pm
Just a reminder - proper names for world leaders.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on September 05, 2017, 12:11:57 pm
Just a reminder - proper names for world leaders.
Is calling the U.S. president the "racist orangtan" considered a proper name? Sounds pretty proper to me.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 05, 2017, 12:12:42 pm
Is calling the U.S. president the "racist orangtan" considered a proper name? Sounds pretty proper to me.

It may fit, but I don't think it's proper.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 05, 2017, 02:43:09 pm
Umm, Trump stopping trade with China won't stop China from doing business with NK. Pissing off China, South Korea and the others would only serve to isolate the US financially in the same way Trump has done politically. Another type of "wall" I suppose?

It's a matter of making it too unprofitable for China. They're not going to isolate North Korea if you don't pressure them. North Korea, as an example, pumps billions in laundered cash through Chinese banks. The US is talking about banning the four big ones from operating in the US. That's not stopping Chinese exports, that's specifically harming those doing business with North Korea. And let's face it, China has been violating every trade treaty and law for decades. The US can quite reasonably pick and choose the ones they want to start enforcing until China finally decides to arrange for the fat boy to fall off a cliff or something, and replaces him with someone more stable.

Quote
I wish I had your confidence that Trump won't try to rain down some of his "fire and fury" on Kim.

I wish I had the confidence you seem to think I had in that.

He needs to be given options which seems like they can achieve something useful (even if they don't). Cracking down on Chinese banks, as an example, combined with a renewed effort towards a missile defense shield, might do for that.

I already owned Raytheon and Harris stock. I bought Lockheed Martin today - and more gold.
I foresee much more money going into anti-missile systems.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 06, 2017, 03:05:48 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/06/politics/trump-deal-democrats-republicans/index.html

Trump deals with Democrats !  Debt ceiling raised for 3 months ?  Interesting.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 06, 2017, 08:00:07 pm
Although I still dislike him intensely, this shows the potential he has... as an outsider.  Without knowing much of the details, looks good.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on September 06, 2017, 08:42:39 pm
He flails around in random directions and happens to hit the target, and this is success? 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 06, 2017, 08:44:31 pm
He flails around in random directions and happens to hit the target, and this is success?
Yup.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on September 07, 2017, 10:40:28 am
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/06/politics/trump-deal-democrats-republicans/index.html

Trump deals with Democrats !  Debt ceiling raised for 3 months ?  Interesting.
Although I still dislike him intensely, this shows the potential he has... as an outsider.  Without knowing much of the details, looks good.
At this point, we don't know what exactly that deal means. In the long run, it may harm the republicans... GOP leaders wanted the debt ceiling raised for a longer period of time (6-18 months). The shorter time period will mean that they will have to revisit the issue by the end of the year, and it may potentially cause problems when midterm elections come around.

The options are:

- It was a genuine attempt by Trump to build bridges with the Democrats, realizing that he may need at least a few of their votes to pass legislation later on

- It is a sign of incompetence on the part of Trump, giving the Democrats something of value, not realizing it could harm the republicans in the future

- Trump was attempting to torment the republicans in Congress whom he often sees as disloyal... the message being "do what I say or I will destroy the party"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 07, 2017, 12:48:11 pm
He had no choice but to make a deal with one side or the other in order to get disaster money. He liked the Democrat conditions better than the Republican conditions. Plus he hates McConnell and Ryan, which can't make him all bad.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on September 07, 2017, 01:28:30 pm
He had no choice but to make a deal with one side or the other in order to get disaster money. He liked the Democrat conditions better than the Republican conditions. Plus he hates McConnell and Ryan, which can't make him all bad.

Au contraire, IMO.  These days McConnell and Ryan are looking more and more sane which does make him bad.

You know things are rough when Paul Ryan thinks your DACA stance is cruel and goes too far.

I hate him even more for making me find a tiny bit of respect for Paul Ryan.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 07, 2017, 01:43:03 pm
Ryan is pissed because Trump has forced Congress to deal with the DACA mess. I have no respect for either of them.

The Freedom Caucus of the GOP threatened to oppose any disaster relief that was coupled to a debt ceiling hike. Right now the united Democrats are more effective than the fractured Republicans when it comes to dealing with a President who really has no loyalty to anyone.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on September 07, 2017, 02:13:33 pm
Au contraire, IMO.  These days McConnell and Ryan are looking more and more sane which does make him bad.
More and more sane compared to what?

Remember, McConnell was the one who masterminded the creation of a Senate health care plan without any sort of input, then got shocked when it didn't pass. And Ryan also had the house pass it's health care bill despite the fact it didn't really stand a chance of getting through the senate.

Both of them are more than willing to pay lip service on some issues (e.g. racism), but when rubber meets road, they will resort to their little political games.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on September 07, 2017, 03:15:11 pm
More and more sane compared to what?

Remember, McConnell was the one who masterminded the creation of a Senate health care plan without any sort of input, then got shocked when it didn't pass. And Ryan also had the house pass it's health care bill despite the fact it didn't really stand a chance of getting through the senate.

Both of them are more than willing to pay lip service on some issues (e.g. racism), but when rubber meets road, they will resort to their little political games.

Oh I don't disagree.  They're both incredibly vile, that's why when they come out sounding compassionate I can't help but lose even *more* respect for Trump. 

And yes, compared to Trump they're worse.  It takes a special kind of maggot to make Paul Ryan look human.  Wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 07, 2017, 05:41:29 pm
Oh I don't disagree.  They're both incredibly vile, that's why when they come out sounding compassionate I can't help but lose even *more* respect for Trump. 



The GOP has always whined that what Obama did regarding DACA wasn't constitutional. Now they will have to do something constructive rather than just bitch. Poor Paul, poor Mitch, my heart bleed for them. Donald? He is just kicking the issue to someone else which is what he does.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 12, 2017, 03:37:22 pm
Trump continues to display not only his bad judgement by welcoming with open arms to the white house, the president of Malaysia, who is quite clearly a thief, but also his disregard for the US constitution, specifically the emoluments clause by having Najib Razak stay at Trump hotel during his visit.

Ignoring the emoluments clause is impeachment material. C'mon congress!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4877072/Trump-meeting-Malaysian-prime-minister-scrutiny.html
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 12, 2017, 10:25:39 pm
Hajib Razmak?  Sounds like a Muslim.  Is Trump connected to the Muslim Brotherhood?  Maybe Someone will conjure up another fake cheque as evidence!

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 12, 2017, 10:39:15 pm
So Steve Bannon did an interview with Charlie Rose last weekend. It was a remarkable interview for at least 3 reasons.

First reason: despite TV makeup and wardrobe, Bannon still managed to look like a bleary-eyed drunk who woke up in a pool of his own sweat.

Second reason: Bannon declared firing James Comey to be "the biggest political mistake in modern history."

Third reason: Bannon explicitly stated that his mission now that he's back at Breitbart is to fight on Trump's behalf.  Has any media outlet ever come out and said so explicitly that they're propaganda?  Has Pravda?  Has Iran's Press.TV, or whatever it's called? Has Russia Today? Pyongyang Today? Anything?

Will the fact that Bannon has explicitly said that they're propaganda dissuade Trumptards from mistaking Breitpravda for real news?  Don't bet on it!   duurrrrrrr, librul bias!

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 12, 2017, 11:15:08 pm
Trump espouses that he and his family are proud to be non drinkers, then he hires a scummy piss tank like Bannon to be his chief advisor, then they have a fight and Bannon gets fired, then he goes on TV to criticize Trump, then he changes his tune to say he will support Trump with his fake news site Breitbart. How the hell does any sane person make heads or tails out of this ricocheting at rather high levels?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 13, 2017, 09:13:01 am
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/is-trump-ending-the-american-era/537888/?utm_source=atlfb

A piece on the wilful decline in American influence.

Quote
In short, foreign leaders may consider Trump alarming, but they do not consider him serious. They may think they can use him, but they know they cannot rely on him. They look at his plans to slash the State Department’s ranks and its budget—the latter by about 30 percent—and draw conclusions about his interest in traditional diplomacy. And so, already, they have begun to reshape alliances and reconfigure the networks that make up the global economy, bypassing the United States and diminishing its standing.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 13, 2017, 11:34:53 am
Quite the read. Depressing but hard to dispute.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2017, 09:39:55 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/10/is-trump-ending-the-american-era/537888/?utm_source=atlfb

A piece on the wilful decline in American influence.
And that's exactly what Putin wants.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 15, 2017, 12:28:46 pm
We didn't even cover the DACA flip-flop.  Things that would have been shocking week 1 are now just passing clownisms...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:31:23 pm
We didn't even cover the DACA flip-flop.  Things that would have been shocking week 1 are now just passing clownisms...

I'm not sure that's a big flip flop. He's been making noises about how he 'loves' the dreamers for some time. He reversed Obama's decree under pressure from many in the party who said it was unconstitutional. I think something like 11 states were going to sue the federal government if they didn't, and Jeff Sessions was saying it was clearly unconstitutional.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2017, 07:37:31 am
Trump shoves his head up his arse yet again with a couple of ill advised tweets. Will he ever get it?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/parsons-green-terror-attack-donald-trump-hypocritical-underground-theresa-may-twitter-self-serving-a7949831.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2017, 07:56:53 am
I'm not sure that's a big flip flop. He's been making noises about how he 'loves' the dreamers for some time. He reversed Obama's decree under pressure from many in the party who said it was unconstitutional. I think something like 11 states were going to sue the federal government if they didn't, and Jeff Sessions was saying it was clearly unconstitutional.

not a flip flop? Apparently you weren't listening during his campaign.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 18, 2017, 01:39:07 pm
So Trump is on the verge of giving what will be the most important speech of his tenure, namely addressing the UNGA so how does he precede that event? Well he tweets out a fake video of him hitting a golf ball which knocks Hillary over as she's boarding her plane, nick names the NK leader "rocketman", and uses his initial meeting with a few of the seated UN leaders to brag about his hotel which is nearby.

The next potential for disaster is of course will he stay focused on the teleprompter during his speech or will he wander off into lala land and start complaining that the only reason Hillary won the popular vote is because of "millions" of illegal voters, or how many "millions" of people attended his inauguration, etc., etc.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: segnosaur on September 18, 2017, 05:18:35 pm
...Well he tweets out a fake video of him hitting a golf ball which knocks Hillary...
There were 2 major problems with that tweet (well, apart from the pettiness):

- The tweet is seen by many to be mocking the problem of violence against women. (And consider how much Trump and his supporters complained when Kathy Griffin posed with a severed head which looked like Trump's.) So, encouraging violence is wrong... unless its Trump himself doing it.

- The tweet was actually a retweet posted in the account of an account noted for bigotry. You would think that after the Trump campaign was accused of being anti-semetic when they posted a picture of Clinton with a star of david (again something taken from the account known for bigotry) that they would check the source a little bit more carefully.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciamelvillesmith/trump-golf-ball-rt
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 18, 2017, 08:40:20 pm
There were 2 major problems with that tweet (well, apart from the pettiness):

- The tweet is seen by many to be mocking the problem of violence against women. (And consider how much Trump and his supporters complained when Kathy Griffin posed with a severed head which looked like Trump's.) So, encouraging violence is wrong... unless its Trump himself doing it.

- The tweet was actually a retweet posted in the account of an account noted for bigotry. You would think that after the Trump campaign was accused of being anti-semetic when they posted a picture of Clinton with a star of david (again something taken from the account known for bigotry) that they would check the source a little bit more carefully.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciamelvillesmith/trump-golf-ball-rt

Yes you're right, the pettiness of such a stupid tweet is the least amount of concern one should have about this. There are knuckleheads who support Trump who will giggle at this bullshit and not understand that it is promoting violence, and they are very likely the people who engage in such violence.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 18, 2017, 08:54:39 pm
And now Sean Spicer appears on SNL and makes a joke of himself about how he lied at the behest of his boss. Is integrity in American politics gone forever?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 19, 2017, 09:46:03 am
And now Sean Spicer appears on SNL and makes a joke of himself about how he lied at the behest of his boss. Is integrity in American politics gone forever?
He was on the Emmy's.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: DuckFace on September 19, 2017, 08:47:29 pm
Nice to see Trump trying to deescalate things at the UN by vowing to "totally destroy" N. Korea in order to protect US or allies.

On the other hand Obama wouldn't and didn't really do anything to stop N Korea getting these nukes. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: TimG on September 19, 2017, 09:29:08 pm
Nice to see Trump trying to deescalate things at the UN by vowing to "totally destroy" N. Korea in order to protect US or allies.
I read recently how NK can still import as much oil as it needs thanks to China and Russia. It is clear that that China a Russia don't really care that NK has nukes and are deliberately exacerbating the situation for political purposes. If this escalates a big part of the blame has to go to China and Russia.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 19, 2017, 11:00:01 pm
I read recently how NK can still import as much oil as it needs thanks to China and Russia. It is clear that that China a Russia don't really care that NK has nukes and are deliberately exacerbating the situation for political purposes. If this escalates a big part of the blame has to go to China and Russia.

Trump standing up at the UNGA and saying he would blow away NK and it's 25 million people puts the load on Donny. Sorry, but your buddy just made a complete ass of himself in front of the world.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on September 20, 2017, 12:04:46 am
I read recently how NK can still import as much oil as it needs thanks to China and Russia. It is clear that that China a Russia don't really care that NK has nukes and are deliberately exacerbating the situation for political purposes. If this escalates a big part of the blame has to go to China and Russia.
Because there is some requirement that Russia and China should also put America first?   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 20, 2017, 05:46:48 am
Because there is some requirement that Russia and China should also put America first?

No- because the risk of nuclear war is the highest it's been in over 50 years, as evidenced in China and Russa's UN votes.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on September 20, 2017, 09:00:59 am
No- because the risk of nuclear war is the highest it's been in over 50 years, as evidenced in China and Russa's UN votes.

Yes, they voted for the toughest sanctions ever against a country, but didn't go as far as the States wanted, right?   They had some concern that what the States wanted could result in rash behavior by N Korea, but probably even more concerning - from their point of view - is the risk that N Korea could collapse completely and they"d end up with a bunch of refugees and more American military in the area.   So they are not putting America first, and possibly for good reason. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 20, 2017, 09:25:25 am
Has Trump climbed a tree he can't get down. The US military policy regarding Korea and it's other Asian allies hasn't changed since 1950, all he has done is change the rhetoric to the fat boy's sand box level. He will be on his own with Israel when it comes to Iran because none of his other allies support his policy on the nuclear agreement. George Shultz once said, if you have no policy, the temptation is to make a speech. Trump makes lots of speeches.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 20, 2017, 01:20:31 pm
Interesting juxtaposition just this am were Obama spoke in New York at the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation Goalkeepers on global health where he roundly criticized the Trump administration for their failures on healthcare, and a very few minutes later, Trump took to the podium in NY at the UN and spoke about Africa. It was day and night.

Obama spoke eloquently with barely an occasional glance at his notes, and he held your interest because he had something to say. Trump couldn't string two coherent sentences together without following his finger along the page as he read in a grade three primary school fashion, and it was boring as it was nothing but hyperbole.

A breath of fresh air and then a roomful of stagnant air. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: TimG on September 20, 2017, 03:45:18 pm
So they are not putting America first, and possibly for good reason.
The question is whether they really want to stop NK from getting ICBMs. By their actions the answer is clearly no - they are happy to see a crazy state get nuclear armed ICBMs as long as that crazy state is obsessed with the US. Their posturing in support of sanctions while blocking those sanctions that would really change the facts on the ground is pathetic and if this escalates they deserve a big part of the blame for sitting on the sidelines when they had the power to do more.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 20, 2017, 03:58:09 pm
Interesting juxtaposition just this am were Obama spoke in New York at the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation Goalkeepers on global health where he roundly criticized the Trump administration for their failures on healthcare, and a very few minutes later, Trump took to the podium in NY at the UN and spoke about Africa. It was day and night.

Obama spoke eloquently with barely an occasional glance at his notes, and he held your interest because he had something to say. Trump couldn't string two coherent sentences together without following his finger along the page as he read in a grade three primary school fashion, and it was boring as it was nothing but hyperbole.

A breath of fresh air and then a roomful of stagnant air.

And yet, despite his eloquence, Obama was a fumble-fingered incompetent in foreign policy.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 20, 2017, 04:16:51 pm
And yet, despite his eloquence, Obama was a fumble-fingered incompetent in foreign policy.

Yeah, incompetent enough he managed a deal with Iran on Nukes, which now Trump will likely rip up so Iran can go back to making whatever they want without any prying eyes. Now that goes beyond incompetent and all the way to stupid.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 20, 2017, 09:04:55 pm
Trump couldn't even get it together enough while he was addressing African leaders, to pronounce the name of an African country called Namibia. He referred to it as Nambia a number of times during his silly speech. Now can any of you Trump supporters point out to the rest of us where Nambia is?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 21, 2017, 04:19:10 pm
A good description of Trump's speech to the UN, and yet his approval ratings have gone up apparently due to his handling of the NK situation. There must be some knuckleheads down there that like this "fire and fury" idea.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/trumps-un-speech-a-throwback-to-a-darker-world/article36308078/

Trump’s UN speech a throwback to a darker world
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 22, 2017, 11:57:05 am
A good description of Trump's speech to the UN, and yet his approval ratings have gone up apparently due to his handling of the NK situation. There must be some knuckleheads down there that like this "fire and fury" idea.


His approval rating has gone up because he reached across the aisle and started cutting deal with Democrats. Americans are heartily sick of the intransigence of the two political parties in failing to work together.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 22, 2017, 01:15:52 pm
His approval rating has gone up because he reached across the aisle and started cutting deal with Democrats. Americans are heartily sick of the intransigence of the two political parties in failing to work together.

His ratings actually went up because a lot of his followers like the "fire and fury" rhetoric, and because he got a few brownie points over how he dealt with the hurricane mess.
If you had heard John MCcain speaking today on his approach to the current healthcare proposal from the GOP you would not think there is much in the way of deal making going on.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2017, 06:18:51 pm
And yet, despite his eloquence, Obama was a fumble-fingered incompetent in foreign policy.

Compared to Trump, Obama's foreign policy is nothing short of spectacular.  Faults and all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 22, 2017, 07:25:57 pm
And yet, despite his eloquence, Obama was a fumble-fingered incompetent in foreign policy.

One has to simply laugh at your comment. Obama's foreign policy brought a lot of soldiers out of Afghanistan and Iraq, he dealt with issues such as poverty, gun laws, unemployment, immigration, the criminal justice system, and even won a Nobel Prize. All the while he was snubbed by the right wingers in congress who didn't want to see any progress in case it might be attributed to the other side of the aisle.

Now let's look at what Trump has done.....you tell us.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 22, 2017, 09:34:25 pm
Compared to Trump, Obama's foreign policy is nothing short of spectacular.  Faults and all.

Wasn't Obama's foreign policy really just the same US interventionism that has been practiced pretty much non-stop since the 2nd world war? I mean, he framed it in more positive terms, but is there any substantive difference between Obama's policy towards Syria or other Middle East nations as compared with previous US administrations' meddling in the Middle East or Central America?   I mean, I like Obama, and I was skeptical at first but I think that overall he was pretty good... but are his Middle East policies *substantively* different from previous administrations?

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 22, 2017, 10:23:43 pm
Wasn't Obama's foreign policy really just the same US interventionism that has been practiced pretty much non-stop since the 2nd world war? I mean, he framed it in more positive terms, but is there any substantive difference between Obama's policy towards Syria or other Middle East nations as compared with previous US administrations' meddling in the Middle East or Central America?   I mean, I like Obama, and I was skeptical at first but I think that overall he was pretty good... but are his Middle East policies *substantively* different from previous administrations?

 -k

Well here's one glaring difference: the previous administration declared and illegal war (Iraq), and Obama retreated from the war. He may have done it too fast but that's a matter of opinion. The facts are the facts.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 23, 2017, 10:17:25 am
One has to simply laugh at your comment. Obama's foreign policy brought a lot of soldiers out of Afghanistan and Iraq, he dealt with issues such as poverty, gun laws, unemployment, immigration, the criminal justice system, and even won a Nobel Prize. All the while he was snubbed by the right wingers in congress who didn't want to see any progress in case it might be attributed to the other side of the aisle.

Now let's look at what Trump has done.....you tell us.

What has the criminal justice system, unemployment, poverty or gun laws got to do with Obama's foreign policy? Yeah, he won a Nobel Prize, for being Black. He got it less than a year into his presidency and hadn't actually done ANYTHING of note other than being elected.

Obama took office with endless good will and delight from all America's allies. But they all quickly tired of his academic lecturing and indecisiveness. I won't say they mocked and held him in contempt as they do Trump, but they sure didn't like him much. America's closest allies felt much more distant by the time he left office, including Canada. For all that Obama was worshiped by the Canadian Left he basically bitch slapped us whenever the opportunity arose. He wasn't any more friendly with the British, French, Germans, Israelis or third world allies.
Russian and Chinese influence thrived under Obama, and Islamic militarism expanded and spread.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 23, 2017, 11:35:46 am
What has the criminal justice system, unemployment, poverty or gun laws got to do with Obama's foreign policy? Yeah, he won a Nobel Prize, for being Black. He got it less than a year into his presidency and hadn't actually done ANYTHING of note other than being elected.

Obama took office with endless good will and delight from all America's allies. But they all quickly tired of his academic lecturing and indecisiveness. I won't say they mocked and held him in contempt as they do Trump, but they sure didn't like him much. America's closest allies felt much more distant by the time he left office, including Canada. For all that Obama was worshiped by the Canadian Left he basically bitch slapped us whenever the opportunity arose. He wasn't any more friendly with the British, French, Germans, Israelis or third world allies.
Russian and Chinese influence thrived under Obama, and Islamic militarism expanded and spread.

Manning down wars in foreign countries has a fair bit to do with foreign policy in case you hadn't heard. The other issues he made gains in show he wasn't quite as incompetent as you might think. You did suggest though that he got his Nobel Prize simply because he was Black so I think we get where you're coming from. Again.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on September 23, 2017, 12:27:37 pm
Wasn't Obama's foreign policy really just the same US interventionism that has been practiced pretty much non-stop since the 2nd world war? I mean, he framed it in more positive terms, but is there any substantive difference between Obama's policy towards Syria or other Middle East nations as compared with previous US administrations' meddling in the Middle East or Central America?   I mean, I like Obama, and I was skeptical at first but I think that overall he was pretty good... but are his Middle East policies *substantively* different from previous administrations?

 -k

When I compared Trump's foreign policy to Obama, I was talking about the all encompassing attitude towards the world, which is what to me foreign policy means (not just middle-east). 

Trump espouses the notion of American exceptionalism and not in a dignified way, but in a bellicose aggressive way.  His approach has been like a bully, like the way he's handled North Korea, Mexico, Iran deal, even allies and trade agreements. 

Obama, on the other hand, always considered the USA a part of the world;  maybe a leader, but just another player.  He was often criticized for NOT believing in American exceptionalism and although I don't know what he thinks, he certainly didn't lead the country as though he did.

Yes, there has always been an element of interference in the middle-east for the last 60 years.  Yes, he loved his drones and bombed the crap out of Syria but even on that he did not escalate or make up lies to invade countries, all he did was work with the mess that he inherited.

But again, that's a different topic.  As far as his overall foreign policy went, he was spectacular compared to Trump.  He was very much a diplomat, a word that is completely foreign to Trump.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 23, 2017, 04:11:30 pm
As far as his overall foreign policy went, he was spectacular compared to Trump.

You realize what a low bar that is, right? I mean, which president could you NOT say the same of?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 23, 2017, 04:14:48 pm
Manning down wars in foreign countries has a fair bit to do with foreign policy in case you hadn't heard.

By following George Bush's withdrawal timeline in Iraq and keeping troops in Afghanistan?

Quote
The other issues he made gains in

Were what?

Quote
You did suggest though that he got his Nobel Prize simply because he was Black so I think we get where you're coming from. Again.

Reality. That's where I'm always coming from. You should visit sometime.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 24, 2017, 09:24:06 am
Donald Trump agrees with me, not the other way around. Just like to make that point up front.

The morning news shows are ababble with Trump's claim that NFL players who won't stand for the national anthem should be fired. All sorts of sports figures are indignantly protesting about that, but I'm gonna take a guess that when a poll comes out in the next couple of days it's going to show widespread agreement with Trump.

Which is a shame. Because what players and a few owners have done by castigating Trump on this issue is set up two sides. On the one side, is patriotism, the national anthem, the flag, and Donald Trump, and on the other side is them. That might be bullshit but that's how it's going to look. You're going to see more players kneeling during the national anthem now, and more anger from the fans, who were already angry enough to begin with.

Let me point out something these overpaid players don't seem to get. Their job is not to score touchdowns or throw passes, or catch the ball. Their job is to entertain the fans who pay big money to escape the day to day crap they endure, and forget about the real world to immerse themselves in cheering for their football team.

The players are there to entertain them. If they fail to do so it doesn't matter how many touchdowns they score or how many games they win. They are entertainers, in someone else's costume, on someone else's stage in someone else's theater. If the fans are booing them they are utterly failing in their job and they need to go. And fast. Any player who pulls a stunt like that needs to be removed from the team and escorted from the stadium by security.

And if you think people don't care, think again. It isn't just the boos raining down which indicate the impact of these protests.

The Sporting News article says "Nearly one-third (32 percent) of adults say they're less likely to watch NFL game telecasts because of the Kaepernick-led player protests against racial injustice, according to Rasmussen's telephone/online survey of 1,000 American adults conducted Oct. 2-3. Only 13 percent said they were more likely to watch an NFL game because of continuing protests by Kaepernick and supporters such as Antonio Cromartie of the Colts (who was cut only two days after raising a fist during the playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner" in London on Sunday)."


https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2016/10/05/confirmed-nfl-losing-millions-of-tv-viewers-because-of-national-anthem-protests/#5e043dca226c (https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2016/10/05/confirmed-nfl-losing-millions-of-tv-viewers-because-of-national-anthem-protests/#5e043dca226c)

It turns out those blaming Colin Kaepernick for last season’s decline in NFL viewership have a point: A study has found that the national anthem protests were the main reason disenchanted sports fans tuned out.
The J.D. Power Fan Experience Survey, which polled 9,200 sports buffs, showed that of those who watched less coverage, 26 percent cited players who took a knee instead of standing for the anthem, a protest spurred by then-San Francisco 49ers quarterback Kaepernick
.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/28/national-anthem-protests-top-list-of-reasons-nfl-f/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/28/national-anthem-protests-top-list-of-reasons-nfl-f/)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2017, 10:17:27 am
Makes me wonder why people have a problem with entertainers protesting racial injustice and a President who encourages white nationalists.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 24, 2017, 10:20:12 am
Makes me wonder why people have a problem with entertainers protesting racial injustice and a President who encourages white nationalists.

Why would it make you wonder? Americans are very patriotic, especially w/r to the visible props of patriotism like the flag and anthem. And most white Americans don't think cops shooting Black criminals who resist arrest is something worth spurning the anthem and flag for.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 24, 2017, 03:46:17 pm
Maybe they should de-couple football, and sports generally, with patriotism ?  If 100+ players defy the show of patriotic fervour that accompanies these games, then now the divisiveness infects them too.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 24, 2017, 04:34:00 pm
Maybe they should de-couple football, and sports generally, with patriotism ?  If 100+ players defy the show of patriotic fervour that accompanies these games, then now the divisiveness infects them too.

Maybe the players should decouple their politics from their jobs. Who else thinks they could go to work and make some kind of divisive protest every day and not be fired?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 24, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Maybe the players should decouple their politics from their jobs. Who else thinks they could go to work and make some kind of divisive protest every day and not be fired?

Well, they are taking a moral stance at great risk to their income.  Whether or not you agree with their plaint, wouldn't you say that it's a selfless thing to do ?  They're sure not helping their careers any.

Now, the NFL can take action against 1 guy but not 100.  Time for some politics... to fix the politics.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: dia on September 24, 2017, 05:27:02 pm
College and high school football kids players going to have considerable influence on their peers and families.   Are they mpre likely or less likely to support coaches and players they may see as heroes and role models?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2017, 05:40:16 pm
Maybe the players should decouple their politics from their jobs. Who else thinks they could go to work and make some kind of divisive protest every day and not be fired?

Love to see those patriotic fans when the NFL and NBA fired every black player. Like that’s going to happen. The players hold the hammer here. Typical Trump bullshit.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 24, 2017, 06:03:28 pm
https://twitter.com/NASCARONFOX/status/912083239682039808

Now NASCAR is out-patrioting the NFL.  Ridiculous.

There are huge issues happening with NK, Healthcare, and the economy.  People would rather fight over identity issues.  Let them protest, I say, but if you disagree or not, let's move the issue of racial injustice to the stakeholder who can do something about it.... this is so far removed and is now about other things completely.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 24, 2017, 06:16:06 pm
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snopes.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F10%2Fnflmeme.jpg&hash=ee6d6be29cf6d91f1f595537f49edda1)

I have NOT checked this one for accuracy but it seems like it plays in.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2017, 06:21:49 pm
Nice to see the owners backing their players on this.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 24, 2017, 06:28:01 pm
Democracy is dying.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2017, 06:43:58 pm
Maybe the players should decouple their politics from their jobs. Who else thinks they could go to work and make some kind of divisive protest every day and not be fired?

Listening to the national anthem is not part of their job, and so demonstrating their foirst amendment rites during that time is up to them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2017, 06:46:46 pm
Why would it make you wonder? Americans are very patriotic, especially w/r to the visible props of patriotism like the flag and anthem. And most white Americans don't think cops shooting Black criminals who resist arrest is something worth spurning the anthem and flag for.

What about Black "suspects" who are unarmed and get shot in the back, or reaching for their drivers license when a cop asks them for it?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2017, 06:52:19 pm
Nice to see the owners backing their players on this.

Certainly is. And it once again points out who should actually get fired.

Interesting how a certain poster on here who previously claimed not to be a fan of Trump's appears to have changed direction now that the race card is front and center.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 10:18:36 am
Well, they are taking a moral stance at great risk to their income.  Whether or not you agree with their plaint, wouldn't you say that it's a selfless thing to do ?  They're sure not helping their careers any.

Now, the NFL can take action against 1 guy but not 100.  Time for some politics... to fix the politics.

Risking your job when you live hand to mouth and jobs are scarce is brave. Risking your job when you're a multi-millionaire on a multi-year contract - not so much. Plus there's this aggressive culture of machismo among Black males, particularly athletes. They don't care about threats. And as pampered pets since they started showing promise on the football field, I don't think they're all that worried about real repercussions.
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 10:22:54 am
What about Black "suspects" who are unarmed and get shot in the back, or reaching for their drivers license when a cop asks them for it?

Even if you agree, as many do, that some police shootings were unjustified, if the victim was a criminal - self identified by running from police - they're not going to have a lot of sympathy in most cases. The worse cases of unjustified shooting I've seen have been against Whites. All the ones involving blacks have involved people resisting arrest - with the exception of that guy who said he had a gun and reached for something, alarming the trigger happy cop.

Do I feel sorry for that guy shot in the back? He refused to stop for police, racing away in his car, when he crashed he ran for it. When the cop caught him he fought him and knocked the tazer out of his hands, then ran for it again. Did he deserve death for that? No. And the cop should be fired and punished. Do I feel particularly sorry for him? Nope. Nor do most White Americans.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 25, 2017, 10:26:04 am
Risking your job when you live hand to mouth and jobs are scarce is brave. Risking your job when you're a multi-millionaire on a multi-year contract - not so much. Plus there's this aggressive culture of machismo among Black males, particularly athletes. They don't care about threats. And as pampered pets since they started showing promise on the football field, I don't think they're all that worried about real repercussions.

I agree that there is less risk, but also it's different: any time, even one game off, during your prime years reduces your potential for fame, achievement and money.  Also, I have yet to see a correlation between NFL earnings and willingness to kneel.  In fact, I'd bet that high-visibility QBs are less willing to make waves, especially white ones, than linemen. 

Your idea that they don't 'care about threats' really says they're not too bright.  But you're opening up a door to discounting bravery in anyone based on group demographics really.  The implication is that they're not to be admired as much, correct ?  IF you follow that idea, though, it takes you to weird places.  Take race out of it and you can say something like "soldiers aren't really brave, they're just dumb young guys".

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 10:26:28 am
Certainly is. And it once again points out who should actually get fired.

Interesting how a certain poster on here who previously claimed not to be a fan of Trump's appears to have changed direction now that the race card is front and center.

I made MY opinion known on this issue long before Trump did. Based on intelligence and logical facts presented. The use of intelligence and facts differentiates me from certain other posters.

Anyone is free to look it up on that other site. And I would say my criticism of Trump has been pretty consistent, knowledgeable and intelligent - as opposed to the bleating whines of certain other posters.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 10:35:40 am
I agree that there is less risk, but also it's different: any time, even one game off, during your prime years reduces your potential for fame, achievement and money.  Also, I have yet to see a correlation between NFL earnings and willingness to kneel.  In fact, I'd bet that high-visibility QBs are less willing to make waves, especially white ones, than linemen. 

The individual risk, as you point out, is pretty minimal when you're part of 200 guys who kneel. The risk is generalized. NFL will be less popular, and have fewer fans, and ultimately, they might have to settle for a little less money next contract negotiation if it continues, but that's all ephemeral stuff.

Quote
Your idea that they don't 'care about threats' really says they're not too bright.

Football players, not too bright? Perish the thought!

Quote
But you're opening up a door to discounting bravery in anyone based on group demographics really.  The implication is that they're not to be admired as much, correct ?  IF you follow that idea, though, it takes you to weird places.  Take race out of it and you can say something like "soldiers aren't really brave, they're just dumb young guys".

First, it's your contention they're brave and mine that they see little likelihood of serious punishment. Further, I don't think they have the foresight or intelligence to imagine being seriously punished for anything. Have you ever read up on these guys? Not just football but other pro athletes? Once you're the star of team in high school you're practically teflon. You can do just about anything and the school will forgive it and help you out. Everyone admires you. You're going somewhere. It gets worse in college. You're gonna be a millionaire if you're a star, and everyone wants to be your friend. They live in a life where they never have to apologize to anyone, at least, not off the field. I can't remember the paper I read this in but this kind of sums it up.   http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/m/2015/03/03/the-culture-of-preferential-treatment-among-athletes/ (http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/m/2015/03/03/the-culture-of-preferential-treatment-among-athletes/)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2017, 10:47:59 am
I made MY opinion known on this issue long before Trump did. Based on intelligence and logical facts presented. The use of intelligence and facts differentiates me from certain other posters.

Anyone is free to look it up on that other site. And I would say my criticism of Trump has been pretty consistent, knowledgeable and intelligent - as opposed to the bleating whines of certain other posters.

Yeah, you have changed direction on your Trump posts, and yeah, it certainly seems to be race based more so than knowledge or intelligence I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 10:57:17 am
Yeah, you have changed direction on your Trump posts, and yeah, it certainly seems to be race based more so than knowledge or intelligence I'm afraid.

No, it's intelligence. I'm not going to curse someone for having a dog because Hitler liked dogs. I'm not going to think an idea is stupid just because Donald Trump does. If Trudeau comes up with a good idea I'll applaud it. An idea is good or bad on its surface without regard to who advocates it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 25, 2017, 01:51:03 pm
They live in a life where they never have to apologize to anyone, at least, not off the field. I can't remember the paper I read this in but this kind of sums it up.   http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/m/2015/03/03/the-culture-of-preferential-treatment-among-athletes/ (http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/m/2015/03/03/the-culture-of-preferential-treatment-among-athletes/)

Ok, what about my example ?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2017, 01:57:37 pm
Trump keeps prattling on about his support for "the flag" but he forgets that he used his phony "bone spurs" to become draft dodger so as to avoid going to defend it.

That's capitol H Hypocritical.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2017, 02:24:43 pm
Even if you agree, as many do, that some police shootings were unjustified, if the victim was a criminal - self identified by running from police - they're not going to have a lot of sympathy in most cases. The worse cases of unjustified shooting I've seen have been against Whites. All the ones involving blacks have involved people resisting arrest - with the exception of that guy who said he had a gun and reached for something, alarming the trigger happy cop.

Do I feel sorry for that guy shot in the back? He refused to stop for police, racing away in his car, when he crashed he ran for it. When the cop caught him he fought him and knocked the tazer out of his hands, then ran for it again. Did he deserve death for that? No. And the cop should be fired and punished. Do I feel particularly sorry for him? Nope. Nor do most White Americans.

Apparently you either haven't read or choose to ignore the actual stats as to how many unarmed Blacks get killed by white cops in the US. Did you happen to see for instance the kid shot and killed in the park for instance. No justification whatsoever. Here are some stats for your edification.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 02:55:48 pm
Ok, what about my example ?

What example? Soldiers? They actually ARE taking risks. And their motive is somewhat more patriotic than that of millionaire football players.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 03:07:44 pm
Apparently you either haven't read or choose to ignore the actual stats as to how many unarmed Blacks get killed by white cops in the US. Did you happen to see for instance the kid shot and killed in the park for instance. No justification whatsoever. Here are some stats for your edification.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Spare me. The stats aren't out of line with the stats on Black violence which causes a lot more interaction between police and, in particular, young black males. In New York city 56% of murder suspects are Black, as are 50% of rapes, 66% of robberies, 70% of shootings, 53% of assaults, 57% of grand larcenies, etc. etc. The suspect stats exactly match the victim description stats so it's not like the cops are making stuff up. OF COURSE there's going to be a lot more violent interaction between police and the Black population on a statistical basis. BLM never talks about the Black crime stats but that's basically the reason.

Some years back Chris Rock did a funny video, an instructoinal video for Black men titled "How not to get your ass kicked by the POlice." Number one was "Obey the law".
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 25, 2017, 03:23:52 pm
What example? Soldiers? They actually ARE taking risks. And their motive is somewhat more patriotic than that of millionaire football players.

Yes, but they're stupid too right ?  "more patriotic" ?  How far backward will you bend to allow generalizations to be used to insult groups you don't like ?

Football players = stupid = protests of conscience aren't valorous
Soldiers = more patriotic = ?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2017, 03:28:45 pm
Spare me. The stats aren't out of line with the stats on Black violence which causes a lot more interaction between police and, in particular, young black males. In New York city 56% of murder suspects are Black, as are 50% of rapes, 66% of robberies, 70% of shootings, 53% of assaults, 57% of grand larcenies, etc. etc. The suspect stats exactly match the victim description stats so it's not like the cops are making stuff up. OF COURSE there's going to be a lot more violent interaction between police and the Black population on a statistical basis. BLM never talks about the Black crime stats but that's basically the reason.

Some years back Chris Rock did a funny video, an instructoinal video for Black men titled "How not to get your ass kicked by the POlice." Number one was "Obey the law".

Your obvious attempt to deflect does not change the facts that you are a lot more likely to get shot by a cop if you are Black in America. And the cop will likely get away with it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2017, 05:37:40 pm
The individual risk, as you point out, is pretty minimal when you're part of 200 guys who kneel. The risk is generalized. NFL will be less popular, and have fewer fans, and ultimately, they might have to settle for a little less money next contract negotiation if it continues, but that's all ephemeral stuff.

Football players, not too bright? Perish the thought!



As opposed to the mob Trump feeds with his rabble rousing. Black athletes should suck it up and take their medicine as individuals. What a bunch of wimps showing support for each other. Even worse are the their white team mates who show them support. I doubt the leagues will suffer at all.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 06:01:44 pm
Yes, but they're stupid too right ?  "more patriotic" ?  How far backward will you bend to allow generalizations to be used to insult groups you don't like ?

Football players = stupid = protests of conscience aren't valorous
Soldiers = more patriotic = ?

Your comparison is inane. You're trying to say multimillionaire football players should be admired for their bravery in kneeling or else we shouldn't admire men who risk their lives for their countries for theirs.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 06:02:57 pm
Your obvious attempt to deflect does not change the facts that you are a lot more likely to get shot by a cop if you are Black in America. And the cop will likely get away with it.

You are six times more likely to murder someone in America if you're Black too.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2017, 06:12:09 pm
As opposed to the mob Trump feeds with his rabble rousing. Black athletes should suck it up and take their medicine as individuals. What a bunch of wimps showing support for each other. Even worse are the their white team mates who show them support. I doubt the leagues will suffer at all.

You doubt, based on what? Viewership was down last year and is down more this year. You doubt that offending a substantial portion of your customers every week will cost you anything? Seriously? You taken a look at what NFL stadiums look like in LA and San Francisco lately?

You're falling into the trap of thinking that because Trump is opposed to something every decent individual has to support it. That's illogical. If Trump comes out and demands everyone brush their teeth before bedtime are you going to indignantly throw your toothbrush away?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 26, 2017, 12:35:29 am
Your comparison is inane. You're trying to say multimillionaire football players should be admired for their bravery in kneeling or else we shouldn't admire men who risk their lives for their countries for theirs.

What's actually inane is your attempt to conflate people showing their disdain for the ongoing racism that to this day permeates the US by twisting it to try and say it is a show of disrespect for soldiers. Sounds what we'd expect to hear from the likes of faux news.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 26, 2017, 05:41:45 am
Your comparison is inane. You're trying to say multimillionaire football players should be admired for their bravery in kneeling or else we shouldn't admire men who risk their lives for their countries for theirs.

I didn't say that - I'm playing your judgement matrix back to you.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 26, 2017, 08:15:47 am
https://twitter.com/NASCARONFOX/status/912083239682039808

Now NASCAR is out-patrioting the NFL.  Ridiculous.

There are huge issues happening with NK, Healthcare, and the economy.  People would rather fight over identity issues.  Let them protest, I say, but if you disagree or not, let's move the issue of racial injustice to the stakeholder who can do something about it.... this is so far removed and is now about other things completely.
Hard to believe a sports organization with virtually no visible minorities, whose head offices are in North Carolina, would condemn protests against racial oppression. /s
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 26, 2017, 08:20:07 am
Even if you agree, as many do, that some police shootings were unjustified, if the victim was a criminal - self identified by running from police - they're not going to have a lot of sympathy in most cases.
Those "many" people are fucking morons. Criminal justice is based on the premise of innocent until proven guilty. People who support the police murdering in the streets those who are not an immediate threat to the lives of those around them are a real threat to society. This goes against our fundamental human rights. It goes against the idea of a fair and just judicial system. And quite frankly, the conversation most of the time is racist as fuck because it's almost never about white people.

Everyone is entitled to a court date. Everyone. And if you think it's just that cops get to play judge, jury, and executioner in the streets against unarmed people, you disgust me.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 26, 2017, 11:19:40 am
I didn't say that - I'm playing your judgement matrix back to you.

Suitably altered into a straw man that doesn't fit his clothes...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 26, 2017, 11:25:07 am
Those "many" people are fucking morons. Criminal justice is based on the premise of innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, yes, and everyone understands that. No one thinks cops should shoot people in the back, well, almost no one. But in a case where a criminal dies during a physical struggle with police most people aren't going to get too upset. The original case being one of those. Almost none of the people shot by police were law-abiding citizens, and the public generally has little sympathy for criminals. More to the point, they can't see this ever happening to them, since they would obey the law and obey a cop's orders, especially a cop pointing a gun at them. The Chicago case, for example, where a cop shot a black guy walking down the road with a knife - unjustified in my opinion. Nevertheless, most people would never see themselves walking down a street carrying a knife while twenty cops pointed guns at them and shouted at them to drop the knife. Most people would say if your response to that is to scream curses at the police, well, society is probably not much harmed by your early exit from it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 26, 2017, 01:12:35 pm
Trump seems to once again have gotten his tweet fingers working before his brain was engaged. He says there was  medium range ballistic missile fired in Iran which could have threatened Israel. Only trouble is, there was no missile fired. He was a little confused by a months old video he happened to see. We all know Trump's credibility has been in the crapper for some time, but he should be a little more careful about those kinds of dangerous mistakes.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/politics/us-iranian-missile-launch-fake/index.html
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 26, 2017, 08:39:31 pm
(https://www.imgur.com/zi9rxGM.jpg)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 27, 2017, 05:06:52 am
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/politics/roy-moore-alabama-republican-establishment/index.html

"How Roy Moore won the first battle of the anti-McConnell war"

So as I understand it, the crazies still LIKE Trump but they want to elect somebody even CRAZIER than him to help the cause ?

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 27, 2017, 09:03:04 am
I have NOT checked this one for accuracy but it seems like it plays in.

I can't find evidence to support the claim that the players didn't participate in the anthem before 2009. But the US military has definitely paid the NFL a lot of money over the past several years to promote military service.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/04/news/companies/team-paid-military-tributes/index.html

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/15611052/nfl-returning-723000-taxpayers-paid-military-tributes

In short, football was politicized well before Colin Kaepernick started kneeling during the anthem.  If the players are going to be used for political purposes, I don't see why they shouldn't make their own feelings felt.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 27, 2017, 09:18:54 am
Ok, it is a fact that the players weren't required to be on the field during the anthem prior to 2009.

It's covered in this article from September 2016, before Trump was president, in response to the then-new controversy regarding Colin Kaepernick.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/yp89dj/stephen-a-smith-points-out-nfls-paid-patriotism-problem

Quote
It's a tribute to the NFL's ability to drape itself in the flag that nobody even realizes that – prior to 2009 – players being on the field for the national anthem wasn't even standard practice.

...

NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy confirmed this morning the practice began in 2009, adding, 'As you know, the NFL has a long tradition of patriotism. Players are encouraged but not required to stand for the anthem.'

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/nzx95m/us-citizens-paid-68-million-to-pro-sports-teams-for-military-ads

Quote
In total, the DOD spent $53 million in advertising contracts with sports teams over the time studied, the majority of which was legitimate, according to the report. Some $10.4 million of that figure was for the "paid patriotism" variety, and $6.8 million of that came directly from taxpayers.

Among the big winners in these contracts were the Falcons, Giants, Bills, and (naturally) Patriots. Atlanta received $879,000 from the Georgia Army National Guard, while the Giants, Bills, and Patriots received "at least" $500,000 each for similar shows of pride.

Lest you think this is just a professional scam, college programs also got in on the act. Indiana, Purdue, and Wisconsin were all mentioned by name as having received over half a million dollars during the same time period.

The rationale for these contracts, as put forth by the NFL and DOD, is that they were recruiting tools. The report notes that this is not only a preposterous argument, but that it is not one that should be made on the taxpayer's dime.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 27, 2017, 10:37:43 am
Suitably altered into a straw man that doesn't fit his clothes...

There's no straw man here.

There is a group of people acting according to their conscience.

You have added a dimension that allows you to discount the valour of one group, but not another.

Really, you should stop moralizing so much, that would fix it.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 11:53:23 am
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/politics/roy-moore-alabama-republican-establishment/index.html

"How Roy Moore won the first battle of the anti-McConnell war"

So as I understand it, the crazies still LIKE Trump but they want to elect somebody even CRAZIER than him to help the cause ?

I would love to run against this guy. First I'd call him Mr and not Judge, and I'd point out that we grant ex high ranking military people their title as a kind of honorary thing, as in General this or Colonel that, but not if they'd been court martialled. This loony was booted out of his job twice for refusing to obey the supreme court. A judge who says he doesn't have to follow the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court!

Second I'd point out that I respect the constitution, unlike my opponent, and stand for law and order, unlike my opponent.  You don't stand for law and order while spurning the orders of the court and ignoring the law.

Third I'd point out I'm a Christian, unlike my opponent. Men like this tend to focus on the Old Testament, which has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. In fact, it's mostly stolen from the Jewish bible. The New Testament is the story of Jesus, and the primary focus of Jesus' teachings, if you could say it had one, was to love one another, be kind, and to take care of each other, especially the poor and sick. What exactly about this guy, his statements, or the Republican Party with is hedonistic, adulterous fornicator-and-groper-in chief has anything in common with that?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 11:56:47 am
There's no straw man here.

There is a group of people acting according to their conscience.

You have added a dimension that allows you to discount the valour of one group, but not another.

Okay, well, those white supremacists in Charlottesville were acting according to their consciences too. So that's all good too, right? The Nazis in Germany were acting according to their consciences too. So were Stalin's people and the Chinese Red Guards. They were all doing what they thought was right.

Is that your standard for admiration? Do you admire Adolph Hitler?

If not perhaps you might concede things aren't as simplistic as you make them out to be.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 12:01:55 pm
Ok, it is a fact that the players weren't required to be on the field during the anthem prior to 2009.

Fascinating how culture changes, huh?
Wasn't all that long ago the Chretien Liberals had to change their Marriage Act bill because of opposition within their own caucus. Liberal MPs were afraid that the wording didn't make it clear enough that marriage was strictly for a man and a woman.

When I was younger Dominion Day was a nice, sleepy holiday, and we looked down on those gauche Americans and all their patriotic fofoorah on July 4th. Painting faces and draping yourself in flags? Seriously!?

But after years of energetic federal government propaganda Canadians now take that sort of thing for granted. You see them every July 1st, painting their faces, draping themselves in the flag and shouting their love of Canada - very much like Americans.

Now everyone is used to the anthem and used to players standing for it. Deliberately not doing so as an act of defiance is seen as extremely unpatriotic.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 27, 2017, 01:26:15 pm
The problem facing these NFL players is not that they are peacefully protesting, it's how and when they are doing it.  They are protesting the national anthem and the flag - even though some are trying to say otherwise.  Taking a knee during the anthem wasn't a coincidence, it was a statement from Kaepernick (and now many others) expressing that he didn't respect the anthem or flag (in essence - the country).  Fair enough, I think he looks foolish and hypocritical but he has a right.
Anyway, many americans, fans and veterans love America, love the flag and anthem and have a deeper understanding of the symbolism that those things represent and a protest like this puts those people squarely in the middle of choosing to side with the players and their protest or the national anthem (representing the country).  This decision becomes more complicated when the NFL owners, clearly terrified of being labelled racist and clearly hoping to not piss off 65% of their team and the black community, cave in and hope for the best. 

This means that the NFL fan is effectively supposed to choose between the protestors/NFL teams and their flag (representing their country).  For many people, and especially veterans this is a nearly impossible decision, but they are painfully siding with the flag and staying away from the NFL.  The problem with the manner of protest, is that it's driven away many people (millions) who otherwise might side with it.  IOW, the protest itself is more of a factor than the issue.

In closing, it doesn't help that anyone who sides with the anthem/flag is now labelled a racist.  The Pittsburgh penguins are already being labelled as such for accepting a visit to the Whitehouse.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 27, 2017, 02:22:11 pm
The problem facing Rosa Parks was she was clearly protesting public transportation, even though she may have said otherwise. She may have indicated it was a protest against segregation, but those of us who love buses know otherwise.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 02:47:19 pm
Why few White Americans are all that supportive of BLM

The Alton Sterling and Philando Castile shootings have caused an uproar among leftists because they fuel their narrative that racist white police officers are hunting down innocent black men. But the statistics – brought to light by the superb work of Heather Mac Donald – tell a different story.


http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler (http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 27, 2017, 02:54:58 pm
I would love to run against this guy.

They are trying to figure out how to defeat these types.  It seems that the very rational arguments you put forward might not work against an electorate who wants to put forward the most outrageous candidates they can.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 27, 2017, 02:57:03 pm
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media

You see, it's not coincidental that he chose to protest the national anthem.  He knew what he was/is protesting and that is "pride in the flag" (and he gave reasons for this).  Sure, he has his right, and no matter how you people want to disconnect the issues and claim something that he has not even claimed - to make it okay, is not gonna pass with too many people.  He has taken a stand against the flag and against the anthem and no matter how much you want to claim otherwise, about 70% of Americans know that to be the truth.

Essentially, the term "shitting in your own back yard" comes to mind.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 27, 2017, 03:00:34 pm
Is that your standard for admiration? Do you admire Adolph Hitler?

If not perhaps you might concede things aren't as simplistic as you make them out to be.

Ok.  Well... do you think calling attention to police brutality is the same kind of thing as marching for... I don't know what they were marching for... bringing Hitler back ?

Adding more attributes to the equation doesn't seem to help.  Here we are:
                Group:      Charlottesville Nazis             NFL Protesters               Soldiers

Attribute
Qualities of Group            Hateful                            Not worldly                      ?
Nobility of goal                Non existent                        ?                          Generally accepted
Bravery                          Questionable                    Depends                   Unquestionable

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2017, 05:14:20 pm
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media

You see, it's not coincidental that he chose to protest the national anthem.  He knew what he was/is protesting and that is "pride in the flag" (and he gave reasons for this).  Sure, he has his right, and no matter how you people want to disconnect the issues and claim something that he has not even claimed - to make it okay, is not gonna pass with too many people.  He has taken a stand against the flag and against the anthem and no matter how much you want to claim otherwise, about 70% of Americans know that to be the truth.

Essentially, the term "shitting in your own back yard" comes to mind.

He has taken a stand against the ongoing racism that exists in the US. Why can't you right wingers seem to comprehend that?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 27, 2017, 05:49:45 pm
He has taken a stand against the ongoing racism that exists in the US. Why can't you right wingers seem to comprehend that?

....by doing what?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 06:16:33 pm
They are trying to figure out how to defeat these types.  It seems that the very rational arguments you put forward might not work against an electorate who wants to put forward the most outrageous candidates they can.

These are the kind of arguments that Clinton should have been making in the election. He was calling her every name in the book while she was 'taking the high road'. Well where did the high road wind up? In a forest in Main wondering how she lost.

I'm not a high road kind of guy when dealing with someone like Trump. I'd have been buying radio time all across the country to play recordings of him calling up a radio station pretending to be his publicist and bragging about his sexual prowess with his mistress of the time. I'd have been putting his mug shot on TV ads with a big red ADULTERER slapped across his forehead, next to similar pictures of his supporters like Rudy Gilliunai,  Steve Bannon and Roger Ailes. I'd have found some of those teenage girls from the Miss Teen USA pageant to talk about how they were half naked when Trump barged into their dressing room to gawk at them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 06:18:30 pm
He has taken a stand against the ongoing racism that exists in the US. Why can't you right wingers seem to comprehend that?

He's a wack job, just to begin with. And his 'stand' is specifically about police killing Black criminals, which most of us right wingers aren't all that sympathetic to.

"if you see the red light in your rear view mirror, STOP IMMEDIATELY! Because everyone knows, if the police have to come get you, they're bringing an ass whooping with them."  - Chris Rock
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 27, 2017, 06:20:06 pm
Ok.  Well... do you think calling attention to police brutality is the same kind of thing as marching for... I don't know what they were marching for... bringing Hitler back ?

Do you think getting shot at and bombed in Afghanistan is on the same 'bravery' level as kneeling at a football game? Because that was your suggestion.


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 27, 2017, 06:27:56 pm
Do you think getting shot at and bombed in Afghanistan is on the same 'bravery' level as kneeling at a football game? Because that was your suggestion.

I didn't make any comment about 'levels' of bravery.  You dismissed the bravery and risk of protesting by saying they're headstrong and naive.  And I pointed out that such comments aren't usually made about soldiers.  It seems to me you're looking for ways to discount the protest that aren't necessary to the discussion.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 27, 2017, 10:36:16 pm
Fascinating how culture changes, huh?

Well, as the articles I posted indicate, in regards to the NFL it's not that culture changed, it's that the NFL decided to promote fake patriotism because the Department of Defense paid them to.

When I was younger Dominion Day was a nice, sleepy holiday, and we looked down on those gauche Americans and all their patriotic fofoorah on July 4th. Painting faces and draping yourself in flags? Seriously!?

But after years of energetic federal government propaganda Canadians now take that sort of thing for granted. You see them every July 1st, painting their faces, draping themselves in the flag and shouting their love of Canada - very much like Americans.

When my family moved to Ottawa from the west, sometime around 1998, I was quite taken aback at the degree of overt nationalism on display. I hadn't seen anything like that when I lived in Edmonton or Vancouver or Victoria.  I don't see such nationalism in Kim City, or when I visit Edmonton or Vancouver. Except briefly during the Vancouver Olympics, when everybody was all amped up about all the gold medals. I can't speak for the rest of Ontario, but I definitely think Ottawa is different from the west in terms of nationalism.

Of course, we also know that the Chretien regime's reasons for playing with patriotism and nationalism, were, like the NFL's, rooted in dollars and not in sincerity. Chretien and friends were funneling money to connected advertising agencies to put a Maple Leaf on anything that wasn't nailed down, and in return the lucky agencies were funneling kickbacks right back to the Liberal party coffers.  I'm sure there's probably an H.L. Mencken adage that would apply, but I haven't got it handy right now.

Now everyone is used to the anthem and used to players standing for it. Deliberately not doing so as an act of defiance is seen as extremely unpatriotic.

Since playing on the patriotism and nationalism of the gullible is what got Trump elected, it's no surprise that he's adopted this as his new cause.

This is the same kind of simplistic emotionalism that has been used to lead dullards around by the nose for ages. "If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists."  "If you don't support the Iraq war, you don't support our troops!" "Support our heroes in blue!"  "America! Love it or leave it!" "If you god damn hippies don't support the Vietnam War, why don't you go live in China you god damn commies!"

People who view the world in such simple terms are the people who put Trump in office, so no wonder he's once again appealing to their nuance-free sensibilities at a time when he desperately needs distractions.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 27, 2017, 11:21:13 pm
....by doing what?

By using his public platform to make a peaceful statement about his beliefs.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 27, 2017, 11:29:10 pm
He's a wack job, just to begin with. And his 'stand' is specifically about police killing Black criminals, which most of us right wingers aren't all that sympathetic to.

"if you see the red light in your rear view mirror, STOP IMMEDIATELY! Because everyone knows, if the police have to come get you, they're bringing an ass whooping with them."  - Chris Rock

The notion that the cops should be able to act as an extrajudicial execution squad is pretty opposite to the kind of conservatism I thought you stood for.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2017, 11:39:57 pm
The notion that the cops should be able to act as an extrajudicial execution squad is pretty opposite to the kind of conservatism I thought you stood for.

 -k

Argus has expressed that kind of "conservatism" since day one. Where ya been?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 12:23:52 am
By using his public platform to make a peaceful statement about his beliefs.

 -k

Wrong!  He could've done a thousand things that would've been better and less destructive.  As it is, he turned off many people who otherwise would support his cause.  Now, it's the NFL's problem.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 12:49:22 am
Wrong!  He could've done a thousand things that would've been better and less destructive.  As it is, he turned off many people who otherwise would support his cause.  Now, it's the NFL's problem.

Exactly how is "taking a knee" destructive? Being statistically 5 times more likely to be shot by a cop if you're Black is destructive. And you may have noticed a number of NFL owners have linked arms with the players who are peacefully making a statement. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 01:20:23 am
Exactly how is "taking a knee" destructive? Being statistically 5 times more likely to be shot by a cop if you're Black is destructive. And you may have noticed a number of NFL owners have linked arms with the players who are peacefully making a statement.

You people believe in nothing and expect others to feel the same way, sorry!  As i said earlier , the manner in which people protest matters as much as the protest itself.  Kaepernick has stated his protest and yet you pull the same crap as you do with muslims "well, it's not about Islam, it's about...", "it's not about the flag, it's about...",  even though the person in question has stated as much.  Use you brain for once man!  There is not a single owner who agrees with this, and lack of employment for Kaepernick is solid proof of that, the owners are in a real bind just as Trump says.  You don't think half-full stadiums and a 11% decrease in TV viewership is destructive, I bet the NFL disagrees. 

We'll see where it goes this weekend, but i'd wager anything that the numbers continue their decline...or the owners suggest to the players that enough is enough.  There is no other way out.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 01:31:40 am
You people believe in nothing and expect others to feel the same way, sorry!  As i said earlier , the manner in which people protest matters as much as the protest itself.  Kaepernick has stated his protest and yet idiots like you pull the same crap as you do with muslims "well, it's not about Islam, it's about...", "it's not about the flag, it's about...",  even though the person in question has stated as much.  Use you brain for once man!  There is not a single owner who agrees with this, and lack of employment for Kaepernick is solid proof of that, the owners are in a real bind just as Trump says.  You don't think half-full stadiums and a 11% decrease in TV viewership is destructive, I bet the NFL disagrees. 

We'll see where it goes this weekend, but i'd wager anything that the numbers continue their decline...or the owners suggest to the players that enough is enough.  There is no other way out.

We people believe in freedom of speech. It's actually one of the things that soldiers fought for.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 01:49:42 am
We people believe in freedom of speech. It's actually one of the things that soldiers fought for.

Sure, he has a right to do and say what he is doing, it doesn't make it the right thing to do and say though.  No one, including Trump has said he shouldn't demonstrate - that's not the question and that's not the issue.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 01:53:34 am
Sure, he has a right to do and say what he is doing, it doesn't make it the right thing to do and say though.  No one, including Trump has said he shouldn't demonstrate - that's not the question and that's not the issue.

Trump said they should "fire the sons of bitches. Give your head a shake.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 02:05:32 am
Trump said they should "fire the sons of bitches. Give your head a shake.

For demonstrating?  No!  For the way the demonstrated against the flag.  That's the difference.  Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't make it consequence free.  I can call my boss a motherf****r, I can spit on a picture of his family - I have that right.  What do you think will happen?  I believe there is a problem with police brutaliy - but I cant support this protest.  None of you lefties have any concept of cause and effect - notta one! 
Jerry Jones joined his team in a demonstration, what did Trump say about that?  He said JJ get's it, that he's a winner.  Now, stop and think a minute....Why?  Whats the difference?  I can't stand that you miss so much!  If you had an ounce of self awareness, you'd be embarrassed.

You can bet you sweet bibbies that the NFL is trying to quietly get rid of this asap. 

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 02:13:24 am
For demonstrating?  No!  For the way the demonstrated against the flag.  That's the difference.  Just because you have a right to do something, doesn't make it consequence free.  I can call my boss a motherf****r, I can spit on a picture of his family - I have that right.  What do you think will happen?  I believe there is a problem with police brutaliy - but I cant support this protest.  None of you lefties have any concept of cause and effect - notta one! 
Jerry Jones joined his team in a demonstration, what did Trump say about that?  He said JJ get's it, that he's a winner.  Now, stop and think a minute....Why?  Whats the difference?  I can't stand that you miss so much!  If you had an ounce of self awareness, you'd be embarrassed.

You can bet you sweet bibbies that the NFL is trying to quietly get rid of this asap.

You're right li'l buddy, you shouldn't call your boss a mofo. What the issue is about here is racial discrimination. Bit of a difference you apparently don't get.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 04:38:46 am
He's a wack job, just to begin with. And his 'stand' is specifically about police killing Black criminals, which most of us right wingers aren't all that sympathetic to.
Cops don't decide who criminals are. The courts do. It's sickening that you continue to justify the murder of unarmed people at the hands of cops. You're not at all sympathetic because they're black and your posting history clearly illustrates you as a racist.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 04:40:48 am
The notion that the cops should be able to act as an extrajudicial execution squad is pretty opposite to the kind of conservatism I thought you stood for.

 -k
That five year old kid in Chicago had it coming. He was clearly a criminal.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 04:42:17 am
Wrong!  He could've done a thousand things that would've been better and less destructive.  As it is, he turned off many people who otherwise would support his cause.  Now, it's the NFL's problem.
If they not those uppity black people would protest in a less visible way. MLK should have marched across a bridge in his backyard and Rosa Parks should have sat down in her living room.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 28, 2017, 08:07:27 am
Lets refrain from calling eachother idiots.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 09:10:45 am
At the end of the anthem in Kansas City, the fans sing "land of the free and home of the Chiefs". But many of those same fans say taking a knee is disrespectful to the anthem. Right.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 28, 2017, 09:13:02 am
Wrong! 

What's wrong about what I said?

He could've done a thousand things that would've been better and less destructive. 

Ok, offer a few examples.

As it is, he turned off many people who otherwise would support his cause. 

If we were talking about blocking intersections, or taking over libraries so that people can't study, or halting somebody else's parade, or taking over the stage at the Jazz Festival, then I'd agree with you 100%. I think that stuff alienates people who would be inclined to listened.

But kneeling during the anthem?  I think that people who are mad about that are mad about his message.

Now, it's the NFL's problem.

The NFL helped create this problem in the first place by agreeing to promote phony patriotism in exchange for cash from the Department of Defense.  If you're going to politicize your product, you have only yourself to blame when others don't agree with the politics your product has aligned with.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 09:18:06 am
....by doing what?

By getting people to pay attention to the issue they are addressing. By the number of people who have their knickers in a knot over this, it's working quite well.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 09:24:04 am
You doubt, based on what? Viewership was down last year and is down more this year. You doubt that offending a substantial portion of your customers every week will cost you anything? Seriously? You taken a look at what NFL stadiums look like in LA and San Francisco lately?

You're falling into the trap of thinking that because Trump is opposed to something every decent individual has to support it. That's illogical. If Trump comes out and demands everyone brush their teeth before bedtime are you going to indignantly throw your toothbrush away?
d

NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year. There is more going on here. America is addicted to football and basketball. Football and basketball are addicted to black players. So it's a matter of entertain me but keep your black mouth shut.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 28, 2017, 09:35:08 am
NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year.

so much for that narrative.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 11:04:45 am
What's wrong about what I said?

Ok, offer a few examples.

If we were talking about blocking intersections, or taking over libraries so that people can't study, or halting somebody else's parade, or taking over the stage at the Jazz Festival, then I'd agree with you 100%. I think that stuff alienates people who would be inclined to listened.

But kneeling during the anthem?  I think that people who are mad about that are mad about his message.

The NFL helped create this problem in the first place by agreeing to promote phony patriotism in exchange for cash from the Department of Defense.  If you're going to politicize your product, you have only yourself to blame when others don't agree with the politics your product has aligned with.

 -k

All this proves is that you can't look beyond your own nose.  You want everyone to care about what you care about, yet you look these people in the face and call them stupid, fools, uneducated rubes...deplorable.  Patriotism may be a joke to you, I know it's phoney and a joke to lefties who take freedom and the western way of life for granted, but for many people it's deadly serious.  Many of the causes that the left want to promote get lost when you/they start burning, stomping on, spitting on...or otherwise disrespecting the flag.  If you refuse to understand why veterans and families of veterans are patriotic, how can you expect them to see your point of view?  If you/they want to a serious discussion, showing contempt for the flag is not really a good starting point.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on September 28, 2017, 11:21:40 am
NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year.

Pssst.  All sports are losing audience...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 11:22:51 am
All this proves is that you can't look beyond your own nose.  You want everyone to care about what you care about, yet you look these people in the face and call them stupid, fools, uneducated rubes...deplorable.  Patriotism may be a joke to you, I know it's phoney and a joke to lefties who take freedom and the western way of life for granted, but for many people it's deadly serious.  Many of the causes that the left want to promote get lost when you/they start burning, stomping on, spitting on...or otherwise disrespecting the flag.  If you refuse to understand why veterans and families of veterans are patriotic, how can you expect them to see your point of view?  If you/they want to a serious discussion, showing contempt for the flag is not really a good starting point.   

Racism against non white Americas is a deterioration of the very freedom you speak of. And the first amendment provides a way to point that out.  Sounds like you want to add to the problem.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:38:57 am
The notion that the cops should be able to act as an extrajudicial execution squad is pretty opposite to the kind of conservatism I thought you stood for.

 -k

It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:42:53 am
I didn't make any comment about 'levels' of bravery.  You dismissed the bravery and risk of protesting by saying they're headstrong and naive.  And I pointed out that such comments aren't usually made about soldiers.  It seems to me you're looking for ways to discount the protest that aren't necessary to the discussion.

I don't even know what your point is. My point is that the protest is illegitimate, but that even if it was legitimate doing it at work is something that would get you fired anywhere else. As someone else pointed out, if one of the peanut vendors in the stands wore a Trump hat he'd be ordered to take it off, and fired if he refused. Businesses are not in the business of offending their customers.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:44:44 am
We people believe in freedom of speech. It's actually one of the things that soldiers fought for.

Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. That does not imply you can spout off at work. No employer anywhere allows that.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 11:45:10 am
We're clearly talking about 2 different issues here; one I have some amount of support for and the other I don't support at all.  I don't think I'm all that different from millions of other people.  You people want full support of both issues, for what logical reason, no one can answer.  Sorry, but how one approaches a situation directly correlates with how much success you'll have. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:47:49 am
When my family moved to Ottawa from the west, sometime around 1998, I was quite taken aback at the degree of overt nationalism on display. I hadn't seen anything like that when I lived in Edmonton or Vancouver or Victoria.  I don't see such nationalism in Kim City, or when I visit Edmonton or Vancouver. Except briefly during the Vancouver Olympics, when everybody was all amped up about all the gold medals. I can't speak for the rest of Ontario, but I definitely think Ottawa is different from the west in terms of nationalism.

Chretien's Liberals didn't give a shit about western Canada. The patriotism propaganda was aimed at Quebec, and the Ottawa area got a pile of it simply because we have a lot of French, are the capital, and are on the borders of Quebec. Actually, if you listen to the government the capital is called Ottawa-Gatineau, and they do their best to ship a lot of jobs and money into Gatineau.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 11:50:43 am
I don't even know what your point is. My point is that the protest is illegitimate, but that even if it was legitimate doing it at work is something that would get you fired anywhere else. As someone else pointed out, if one of the peanut vendors in the stands wore a Trump hat he'd be ordered to take it off, and fired if he refused. Businesses are not in the business of offending their customers.

Apparently they do allow free speech at the nfl since a number of owners have locked arms with their players during the anthem.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 11:50:51 am
It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.

Was she the woman shot by the "pet project" black immigrant cop?  Not much coverage, I don't know why!  I seem to remember a blurb on the TV about her though!  Was her family ever invited to the UN, Whitehouse or DNC? 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:51:01 am
d

NASCAR which Trump likes to point to for its patriotism was down 17% last year. There is more going on here. America is addicted to football and basketball. Football and basketball are addicted to black players. So it's a matter of entertain me but keep your black mouth shut.

What makes you think the response would be any different if some white players were doing the same damn thing?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 11:54:01 am
Apparently they do allow free speech at the nfl since a number of owners have locked arms with their players during the anthem.

The owners are between a rock and a hard place. Many of their highly skilled players are Black, and the mass media is wholly on whatever side Trump is not on. At the same time, when boos are raining down from the stands in your own stadium you'd be wise to stop bringing politics into your business.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 12:02:23 pm
What makes you think the response would be any different if some white players were doing the same damn thing?

Except some white players are doing the same thing. I guess you don't have to be black to understand the issue.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 12:03:56 pm
We're clearly talking about 2 different issues here; one I have some amount of support for and the other I don't support at all.  I don't think I'm all that different from millions of other people.  You people want full support of both issues, for what logical reason, no one can answer.  Sorry, but how one approaches a situation directly correlates with how much success you'll have.
There aren't two issues. There's one issue that black football players were bringing attention to. That's it. This other "issue" you're talking about is bullshit made up by racists to dismiss black activism, just like "all lives matter," and you've bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 12:04:09 pm
Except some white players are doing the same thing. I guess you don't have to be black to understand the issue.

I suppose to you football players would seem like towering intellectuals who should guide us in our public morality and ethics...
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 12:05:03 pm
There aren't two issues. There's one issue that black football players were bringing attention to.

Shooting black criminals who resist arrest, you mean?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 12:06:46 pm
It's funny that all those NFL owners were being called racist by everybody with a platform.  It's was the "rich white guy club", it was the "white owners with their black monkeys", now they lock arms with a few of them and they're praised for "standing against Trump's racism".  Do you people not even see this?   Really?  Look, the owners and the NFL are trying to find a way out as quickly as possible. 

You can say that all sports are suffering, but this is the NFL and 10-11% decline represents 100's of $millions, maybe $billions of dollars.  If NHL players did this, I'd stop watching immediately. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 12:08:12 pm
Shooting black criminals who resist arrest, you mean?
Criminals before trial? 5 year old child criminals? Criminals who obey a cop's orders and get shot sitting in their car anyway?

You're either incredibly ignorant of what's been happening or just a racist who thinks being black is criminal.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 12:10:18 pm
There are clearly 2 issues here.  How do I know?  Because society and NFL fans say so.  If you think otherwise, then you're simply disregarding the thoughts of millions of people - as I said, it's not a good starting point.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 12:21:01 pm
Criminals before trial? 5 year old child criminals? Criminals who obey a cop's orders and get shot sitting in their car anyway?

I don't recall a five year old deliberately shot by police. You'll have to cite the case. The guy in he car fucked up. He said he had a gun, then reached for something. The cop shouted at him to not move. Apparently he moved. It's too bad but when you have cops who are in a heightened state of fear they're liable to be trigger happy, as the Justine Damond case illustrates.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 04:31:21 pm
The owners are between a rock and a hard place. Many of their highly skilled players are Black, and the mass media is wholly on whatever side Trump is not on. At the same time, when boos are raining down from the stands in your own stadium you'd be wise to stop bringing politics into your business.

Or on the other hand they just think Trump is FoS as usual. Much easier to make stuff up than listen to what they are actually saying.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 05:05:34 pm
Or on the other hand they just think Trump is FoS as usual. Much easier to make stuff up than listen to what they are actually saying.

Please!  You're embarrassing yourself.  These owners don't support this movement, but they can't be seen strong arming black players - for obvious reasons.  They're trying to find a way, as Jerry Jones has of walking the fence until this blows over.  Look at what will happen tonight and this weekend, it will be interesting to see how the owners stop the players from kneeling (during the anthem) and find another outlet.  Trump has brought this to a head, will be the winner, and you guy's will convince each other that he somehow lost.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2017, 05:19:19 pm
Please!  You're embarrassing yourself.  These owners don't support this movement, but they can't be seen strong arming black players - for obvious reasons.  They're trying to find a way, as Jerry Jones has of walking the fence until this blows over.  Look at what will happen tonight and this weekend, it will be interesting to see how the owners stop the players from kneeling (during the anthem) and find another outlet.  Trump has brought this to a head, will be the winner, and you guy's will convince each other that he somehow lost.

There is a bit of a difference between owners strong arming black and white players and going on the field to join arms with them. Trump has simply once again made an asshole of himself by displaying his racism while ignoring Americans in trouble on Puerto Rico.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 05:43:07 pm
There is a bit of a difference between owners strong arming black and white players and going on the field to join arms with them. Trump has simply once again made an asshole of himself by displaying his racism while ignoring Americans in trouble on Puerto Rico.

Exactly!  I mean, don't the owners look supportive!  It's almost as if they're different from the owners of last year who were all called racist because none were black or when they were racist for supporting Trump.  Man, what a well timed photo-op can do!

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on September 28, 2017, 06:40:57 pm
I don't recall a five year old deliberately shot by police. You'll have to cite the case. The guy in he car fucked up. He said he had a gun, then reached for something. The cop shouted at him to not move. Apparently he moved. It's too bad but when you have cops who are in a heightened state of fear they're liable to be trigger happy, as the Justine Damond case illustrates.
Still not a "criminal"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 06:49:08 pm
Please!  You're embarrassing yourself.  These owners don't support this movement, but they can't be seen strong arming black players - for obvious reasons.  They're trying to find a way, as Jerry Jones has of walking the fence until this blows over.  Look at what will happen tonight and this weekend, it will be interesting to see how the owners stop the players from kneeling (during the anthem) and find another outlet.  Trump has brought this to a head, will be the winner, and you guy's will convince each other that he somehow lost.

Please, stop making crap up and presuming to speak for the owners. Trump is just a dick head trying to deflect from all his failed attempts to get legislation passed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 07:01:12 pm
Just because some of the owners may have supported Trump for his business policies doesn’t make them racist bigots like him.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 07:08:43 pm
Please, stop making crap up and presuming to speak for the owners. Trump is just a dick head trying to deflect from all his failed attempts to get legislation passed.

Call me skeptical, but I gotta think that NFL owners care more about the $millions of dollars they've lost than the political beliefs of a guy who grew up in a ghetto, was dragged through a college degree and now makes $millions of dollars because he can run or catch a football.  Maybe they care out keeping their No.1 QB, RB or WR happy, but the rest are pretty much replaceable.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 07:12:00 pm
Just because some of the owners may have supported Trump for his business policies doesn’t make them racist bigots like him.

I don't see any racism from any side.  You know, there are many blacks in the military.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2017, 07:16:32 pm
Call me skeptical, but I gotta think that NFL owners care more about the $millions of dollars they've lost than the political beliefs of a guy who grew up in a ghetto, was dragged through a college degree and now makes $millions of dollars because he can run or catch a football.  Maybe they care out keeping their No.1 QB, RB or WR happy, but the rest are pretty much replaceable.   

NFL owners haven’t “lost” anything. So having money disqualifies you from having ethics. Well it sure has in Trump’s case.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 08:28:32 pm
So, the first domino goes by the name of "Denver Broncos".  Not that Trump or the fans had anything to do with, it's just what the players thought was the right thing.



http://www.dailycamera.com/broncos-nfl/ci_31339327/denver-broncos-plan-stand-together-national-anthem?source=rss

As an edit, I just want to point this comment out to Omni and cyber:  Joseph said the "platform was not working" and the original intent and message behind the silent protests were lost amid the mass demonstrations through the NFL.

"It was making this whole issue confusing to the fans, to the military, to the players, to the coaches. No one had clarity," he said. "So I think changing the platform in the future — I'm not sure what it is now — but changing it in the future will help us make positive change."
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 28, 2017, 09:03:25 pm
Still not a "criminal"

No more than Justine Damond, but shit happens when you've got scared cops with guns. At least one can say the cop feared for his life there, even if I don't think he should have shot so fast, but there's no excuse at all for her shooting.

You won't find many protests over it, though. She was the wrong colour to fit the leftist theme.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 28, 2017, 10:10:21 pm
All this proves is that you can't look beyond your own nose.  You want everyone to care about what you care about, yet you look these people in the face and call them stupid, fools, uneducated rubes...deplorable.

The people who are stupid, fools, rubes, and deplorable are the ones who have allowed themselves to get riled up over a complete non-issue.  They're being played for suckers by a politician who specializes in playing suckers.


Patriotism may be a joke to you, I know it's phoney and a joke to lefties who take freedom and the western way of life for granted, but for many people it's deadly serious. 

I don't think patriotism is phony, but the NFL's on-field displays sure are. As already discussed, the Department of Defense and branches of the US Armed Forces have paid the NFL millions of dollars to put on patriotic displays and showcase members of the military in ceremonies at games.  To boost recruitment.   How is that not phony?


 "We're honoring our military today, because our military paid us to."  YAAAAY! Doesn't that make you feel all patriotic inside?


Many of the causes that the left want to promote get lost when you/they start burning, stomping on, spitting on...or otherwise disrespecting the flag. 

Oh. Ok. Which football players are burning, stomping on, or spitting on the flag? Because those guys are definitely jerks!  Have you got pictures of this happening?

On the other hand, if you're going to tell me that kneeling during the anthem is the same as burning, stomping on, or spitting on the flag, then no. You're wrong. That's silly.

I read a news article last week about a young kid in school who got roughed up by his teacher by not standing and saluting during the Pledge of Allegiance.  So what was the kid's problem. Was he a Muslim? A commie? Some kind of America-hating leftist?  As it turns out the kid was a fundamentalist Christian, whose religious beliefs dictate that he can't pledge allegiance to the flag because his religious beliefs only allow him to pledge allegiance to God.

Declining to participate in a ceremony honoring the flag is not the same as destroying or defacing the flag.   

Consider: every year at our office Christmas party, my boss leads a prayer and saying grace before dinner. And I don't pray along because I'm not religious, so I bow my head and sit quietly.

Now, if my boss were to react like Donald Trump has reacted to this anthem topic, he'd say something like "GOD DAMN YOU WHY ARE YOU DISRESPECTING JESUS WHY DO YOU HATE JESUS GOD DAMN YOU ARE GOD DAMNED FIRED!!!"

But because my boss is a normal person, he's capable of accepting that I don't share his beliefs and accepts that I sit quietly during the prayer without taking it as an offense to either himself or his religion. Because that's how normal people react in situations like that.

If you refuse to understand why veterans and families of veterans are patriotic, how can you expect them to see your point of view?  If you/they want to a serious discussion, showing contempt for the flag is not really a good starting point.   

I understand that veterans and non-veterans and all kinds of other people are patriotic. I don't have any issue with it.

The issue here isn't that people are intolerant of patriotism. The issue here is that some self-styled patriots are intolerant of those who don't share their patriotism.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 10:46:31 pm
The people who are stupid, fools, rubes, and deplorable are the ones who have allowed themselves to get riled up over a complete non-issue.  They're being played for suckers by a politician who specializes in playing suckers.


I don't think patriotism is phony, but the NFL's on-field displays sure are. As already discussed, the Department of Defense and branches of the US Armed Forces have paid the NFL millions of dollars to put on patriotic displays and showcase members of the military in ceremonies at games.  To boost recruitment.   How is that not phony?


 "We're honoring our military today, because our military paid us to."  YAAAAY! Doesn't that make you feel all patriotic inside?


Oh. Ok. Which football players are burning, stomping on, or spitting on the flag? Because those guys are definitely jerks!  Have you got pictures of this happening?

On the other hand, if you're going to tell me that kneeling during the anthem is the same as burning, stomping on, or spitting on the flag, then no. You're wrong. That's silly.

I read a news article last week about a young kid in school who got roughed up by his teacher by not standing and saluting during the Pledge of Allegiance.  So what was the kid's problem. Was he a Muslim? A commie? Some kind of America-hating leftist?  As it turns out the kid was a fundamentalist Christian, whose religious beliefs dictate that he can't pledge allegiance to the flag because his religious beliefs only allow him to pledge allegiance to God.

Declining to participate in a ceremony honoring the flag is not the same as destroying or defacing the flag.   

Consider: every year at our office Christmas party, my boss leads a prayer and saying grace before dinner. And I don't pray along because I'm not religious, so I bow my head and sit quietly.

Now, if my boss were to react like Donald Trump has reacted to this anthem topic, he'd say something like "GOD DAMN YOU WHY ARE YOU DISRESPECTING JESUS WHY DO YOU HATE JESUS GOD DAMN YOU ARE GOD DAMNED FIRED!!!"

But because my boss is a normal person, he's capable of accepting that I don't share his beliefs and accepts that I sit quietly during the prayer without taking it as an offense to either himself or his religion. Because that's how normal people react in situations like that.

I understand that veterans and non-veterans and all kinds of other people are patriotic. I don't have any issue with it.

The issue here isn't that people are intolerant of patriotism. The issue here is that some self-styled patriots are intolerant of those who don't share their patriotism.

 -k


What you have to understand is that we as Canadians usually couldn't give a shit about our flag or anything remotely close to patriotism, that's Canada, and most of hate pride.  However, I can understand that many, in fact most Americans do see any and all desecration of their flag/anthem ...whatever to be a strict nono.  So yes, for many Americans, kneeling before the anthem is equal to spitting on or burning the flag - you may not agree, but the majority of Americans do agree. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 28, 2017, 11:03:50 pm
I honestly think that's a load of crap.

If Colin Kaepernick had told the media that he was kneeling during the anthem to pray to Jesus, people would not be offended, and many of them would be calling it a great thing. He'd have been the new Tim Tebow.

It's not the act of kneeling that people are mad at, it's his reason for kneeling.  People are mad at the message, not at how he delivered it.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 28, 2017, 11:20:49 pm
I honestly think that's a load of crap.

If Colin Kaepernick had told the media that he was kneeling during the anthem to pray to Jesus, people would not be offended, and many of them would be calling it a great thing. He'd have been the new Tim Tebow.

It's not the act of kneeling that people are mad at, it's his reason for kneeling.  People are mad at the message, not at how he delivered it.

 -k

Wrong again!  There is a college coach who was fired for kneeling in prayer and as far as Tebow, he was made the laughing stock of the NFL (some say blacklisted) for "tebowing".  Atheletes have protested many times in many ways, just look at the NBA.  This protest was lost in the "perceived" disrespect of the flag - plain and simple.

Green Bay and Chicago stood for the anthem tonight
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 28, 2017, 11:40:11 pm
Wrong again!  There is a college coach who was fired for kneeling in prayer and as far as Tebow, he was made the laughing stock of the NFL (some say blacklisted) for "tebowing". 
Tebow got "blacklisted" because he isn't very good. He was only a laughing-stock because the amount of hype put upon him was so out of proportion to his actual accomplishments... sort of a religious answer to Anna Kournikova.  Christian demogogues would have you believe he was run out of the league because the liberal media hates Christian, but lots of Christian players pray on the field during games.  Tebow isn't half the player that Kaepernick is, and Kaepernick isn't in the NFL anymore either.

Atheletes have protested many times in many ways, just look at the NBA.  This protest was lost in the "perceived" disrespect of the flag - plain and simple.

Ultimately the right to not salute the flag during the anthem is right at the top of the list of freedoms that real actual patriots fought and died for. 

Green Bay and Chicago stood for the anthem tonight

Good for them.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 29, 2017, 12:29:37 am
Tebow got "blacklisted" because he isn't very good. He was only a laughing-stock because the amount of hype put upon him was so out of proportion to his actual accomplishments... sort of a religious answer to Anna Kournikova.  Christian demogogues would have you believe he was run out of the league because the liberal media hates Christian, but lots of Christian players pray on the field during games.  Tebow isn't half the player that Kaepernick is, and Kaepernick isn't in the NFL anymore either.

Ultimately the right to not salute the flag during the anthem is right at the top of the list of freedoms that real actual patriots fought and died for. 

Good for them.

 -k

Well, as I said, you're not able to look any further than your own nose. 

Until you realize that the delivery or venue is just as important as the issue itself, you people will remain ignorant to the way society works.  This was a simple case of "wrong place, wrong time".  And, that is why it failed.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 29, 2017, 01:13:46 am
Well, as I said, you're not able to look any further than your own nose. 

Until you realize that the delivery or venue is just as important as the issue itself, you people will remain ignorant to the way society works.  This was a simple case of "wrong place, wrong time".  And, that is why it failed.

It seems more like you would rather be led by the nose. Your narrow minded idea of patriotism seems to be simply putting your hand over your heart and singing along with everybody else, no matter what. Racism clearly exists in the US to this day, perhaps if you had walked a mile in a black mans shoes you might be a little more aware of that fact.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 29, 2017, 11:22:00 am
I hate it when prissy leftist progressives make me side with the Trumps but they keep doing it.

As part of a program to send books to school libararies the White House picked out one high-achieving school in each state and they got a little package of books, in this case Dr. Seuss books, chosen by Melania Trump because she loved reading them to her kids. The school ibrarian rejected the books as racist, and sent a letter, which she duly made public, telling Trump she should send them to poor schools harmed by her husband's racist policies.

I know Trump is being a sometimes deliberately divisive figure, but the Left in the US is eagerly doing its share to add to that environment.

http://nationalpost.com/news/world/school-librarian-rejects-melania-trumps-gift-of-racist-dr-seuss-books (http://nationalpost.com/news/world/school-librarian-rejects-melania-trumps-gift-of-racist-dr-seuss-books)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 29, 2017, 01:37:19 pm
That's not siding with Trump - that's siding against idiots.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2017, 02:20:05 pm
The librarian is an idiot...  Not everything is "taking sides"....  unless of course, taking a partisan viewpoint is what you do with most of your decisions/opinions.... 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 30, 2017, 01:13:50 pm
Well, as I said, you're not able to look any further than your own nose. 

Until you realize that the delivery or venue is just as important as the issue itself, you people will remain ignorant to the way society works.  This was a simple case of "wrong place, wrong time".  And, that is why it failed.

If people were really that offended about the flag, Kid Rock would have been shot by now for wearing the flag as a wife-beater t-shirt. Turning the flag into bikini-bottoms and Speedos is more insulting to the flag than refusing to salute during the anthem.

Some people are mad at the players who did this because they feel the players are attacking America itself.  The people who have booed the players for this are the same kind of people who shouted "Love it or leave it!" at people protesting the Vietnam war or the Iraq war. These are the shallow thinkers who believe that speaking out against a policy or a problem in America is the same as denouncing America itself.


You make it sound like these folks would be willing to talk about this issue if only those darned football players would stop insulting the flag. The truth is that those people aren't booing because they want to have that conversation in some other venue at some other time, they are booing because they don't want to have that conversation, period.   People have been trying to have this conversation for years, and the only time it ever actually comes to the fore is when somebody creates a controversy too big to ignore.  Riots in Ferguson? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Riots in Baltimore? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Athletes protesting at football games? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying -- wait, what were they destroying? Nevermind, just please stop doing that, and then we can talk. The truth is they don't want to talk, they just want to go back to ignoring the problem.  The supposed indignation over the flag is just an effort to rationalize opposition to these protests. "We can't say we oppose their right to express themselves, because that would be unAmerican. We can't say that race isn't an issue in America, because that would be stupid. We need an excuse to explain why we're so mad about this."

You think these protests have alienated people who might otherwise be willing to listen to the issue.

I think these protests have angered people who would otherwise completely ignore the issue.



 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: BC_cheque on September 30, 2017, 01:24:13 pm

The truth is they don't want to talk, they just want to go back to ignoring the problem. 


Very good post.

Re the quote above, I would say the issue is deeper than ignoring it, they outright deny it and blame black people for getting themselves killed.

I don't even participate in this debate anymore because it infuriates me so much when I read that it's ok to kill innocent black people because some other black people commit crimes.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 30, 2017, 01:45:21 pm
It's a recognition of human nature. I've seen countless videos of violent police interaction with people - especially blacks, but not only them. There are damned few where the civilian was polite and cooperative and was subjected to violence.

And calling Chris Rock's statement support of an 'extrajudicial execution' is kind of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Here's the message I was reacting to... and I have bolded the portion I was addressing:
He's a wack job, just to begin with. And his 'stand' is specifically about police killing Black criminals, which most of us right wingers aren't all that sympathetic to.

"if you see the red light in your rear view mirror, STOP IMMEDIATELY! Because everyone knows, if the police have to come get you, they're bringing an ass whooping with them."  - Chris Rock

When you say that, I imagine you're probably picturing somebody getting shot while fleeing a robbery with a gun in his hand. And I get that.  There are situations when force is fully justified.

The problem I have with your comment is that it equally describes situations like the death of Freddie Gray-- a guy  who was a criminal, but also a guy who was shackled hand and foot and locked inside the back of a police van at the time the fatal injuries were inflicted upon him. Or the death of Robert Dziekanski, or any number of other situations where police got away with killing somebody with the most minimal of justifications.


My point about BLM is the same as in the cite in post #780, which pointed out that the only reason more Blacks are shot - percentage wise - than Whites is more Blacks are involved in violent crime - percentage wise - than whites.

There IS a problem with police training in the US and in Canada. They are taught to 'take command' and they are far more militaristic than they need to be or used to be. They are often far quicker to grab people instead of talking to them. They feel threatened much more easily, and when threatened go for their guns too quickly. But this is a universal issue, not a Black rights issue. Some shootings are definitely unjustified, and I say it when I see it. The Walter Scott shooting is probably the most famous involving Black Americans, but the shooting of Justine Damond was even more outrageous and indefensible, and didn't cause any riots because she was white.

For the most part I actually agree with what you're saying here.  I don't think police kill people because they're racists, I think they do it because they're not good at their job.  I don't think they get away with killing people because the system is racist, I think they get away with killing people because they cover up for each other, destroy evidence whenever possible, and do their level best to make sure that their buddies are never held responsible for anything, and they have a powerful union that will go to the wall to protect them as well.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 02:09:07 pm
If people were really that offended about the flag, Kid Rock would have been shot by now for wearing the flag as a wife-beater t-shirt. Turning the flag into bikini-bottoms and Speedos is more insulting to the flag than refusing to salute during the anthem.

Some people are mad at the players who did this because they feel the players are attacking America itself.  The people who have booed the players for this are the same kind of people who shouted "Love it or leave it!" at people protesting the Vietnam war or the Iraq war. These are the shallow thinkers who believe that speaking out against a policy or a problem in America is the same as denouncing America itself.


You make it sound like these folks would be willing to talk about this issue if only those darned football players would stop insulting the flag. The truth is that those people aren't booing because they want to have that conversation in some other venue at some other time, they are booing because they don't want to have that conversation, period.   People have been trying to have this conversation for years, and the only time it ever actually comes to the fore is when somebody creates a controversy too big to ignore.  Riots in Ferguson? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Riots in Baltimore? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying the city.  Athletes protesting at football games? Ok, let's talk... just please stop destroying -- wait, what were they destroying? Nevermind, just please stop doing that, and then we can talk. The truth is they don't want to talk, they just want to go back to ignoring the problem.  The supposed indignation over the flag is just an effort to rationalize opposition to these protests. "We can't say we oppose their right to express themselves, because that would be unAmerican. We can't say that race isn't an issue in America, because that would be stupid. We need an excuse to explain why we're so mad about this."

You think these protests have alienated people who might otherwise be willing to listen to the issue.

I think these protests have angered people who would otherwise completely ignore the issue.



 -k

As I said, it's all about the the "how", not necessarily the "what".  NFL fans believe, and you clearly disagree, that it is the game that brings Americans together.  They refuse to let it be held hostage to politics - that is what they're saying. 

"You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow"

 - John Lennon


Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on September 30, 2017, 02:37:29 pm
As I said, it's all about the the "how", not necessarily the "what".  NFL fans believe, and you clearly disagree, that it is the game that brings Americans together. 

I don't think NFL fans are a monolith. But I agree... those who are mad about this just want the players to shut up.

They refuse to let it be held hostage to politics - that is what they're saying. 

But they didn't seem to mind it being politicized when the US armed forces paid the league and the teams to hold "support the troops!" ceremonies during games.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 30, 2017, 02:48:12 pm
Very good post.

Re the quote above, I would say the issue is deeper than ignoring it, they outright deny it and blame black people for getting themselves killed.

I don't even participate in this debate anymore because it infuriates me so much when I read that it's ok to kill innocent black people because some other black people commit crimes.

Maybe you should learn to read less of your own ideological views into what people write. No one has said its okay to kill 'innocent' black people. I pointed out that people at large are a lot less concerned about what happens to criminals than to other people. If you disagree with this say so. I pointed out that of all the cases I've seen video on or heard about virtually every single one involved, not innocent black people but people telling armed cops to go fuck themselves, and fighting to not be arrested. Do you deny this? If so say so. I'm sure you must have a lot of examples of innocent Black people just calmly walking along when some slavering bastard of a cop walks up and shoots them in the head.

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 30, 2017, 03:08:30 pm
The problem I have with your comment is that it equally describes situations like the death of Freddie Gray-- a guy  who was a criminal, but also a guy who was shackled hand and foot and locked inside the back of a police van at the time the fatal injuries were inflicted upon him. Or the death of Robert Dziekanski, or any number of other situations where police got away with killing somebody with the most minimal of justifications.

Let me make it clearer then. There are gross violations of people's human rights all over the world every day, many of them absolutely horrific and against entirely innocent men, women and children. In the context of that, as a TV viewer not exposed personally to any of it, am I supposed to get upset that a lifelong criminal got bounced around in the back of a police van and died after resisting arrest? Do I think that's the way police should act? Fuck no. If you want to google Robert  Dzeikanzski on that other site I think I made my opinion of those cops very clear on multiple occasions. Admittedly, I had more sympathy for a bewildered polish guy than a criminal who ran from police, but in neither case did I or would I defend the cops involved. I don't think they intended to kill these two guys, mind you, but their behaviour was still unprofessional and led to death. In a more obvious case, the Sammy Yatim shooting in Toronto, I had more interest/indignation because it was here in Ontario, and I made my opinion clear of the idiot cop who shot him too. He was not an innocent, but probably had severe mental issues, and the shooting was entirely unnecessary.


Quote
For the most part I actually agree with what you're saying here.  I don't think police kill people because they're racists, I think they do it because they're not good at their job.

I think it usually happens because of the way they're trained. For example, police training is very, very firm on the concept that if anyone with a weapon of any kind, such as a knife, a bat, a pipe, a pair of scissors, anything that can kill or seriously injure gets within 20 feet, you shoot them. Furthermore, police use of force training focuses on noting the telltale signs of violence in a person, threatening gestures and movements, face, tone, on controlling the situation, and on firearms use. There is some training in unarmed combat, but very little. There is NO training in how to deal with an assailant armed with any sort of weapon because you're supposed to shoot them.

And police are constantly taught and trained to be on edge, to be alert for imminent attack. They are, in other words, taught to be paranoid, and then given a gun. And we're surprised when they occasionally shoot someone we'd rather they not have shot?

Quote
I don't think they get away with killing people because the system is racist, I think they get away with killing people because they cover up for each other, destroy evidence whenever possible, and do their level best to make sure that their buddies are never held responsible for anything, and they have a powerful union that will go to the wall to protect them as well.

There is some of that. But it's also that when it comes to a jury of middle class people who consider police their protectors its very easy to put themselves into the police situation - in most cases - and wonder if they'd shoot too. And if they wonder, then they're likely to not convict. That's especially true if the person shot was clearly some sort of criminal or resisting arrest.

Remember, nobody in any job fails to make mistakes. Cops are in jobs where they're going to make mistakes. And that's particularly so when violence is involved. So a lot of people are willing to cut them some slack in most situations. Neither the Sammy Yatim case, nor the Robert Dziekanski case such situations for me. Nor is the Justine Damond case.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 03:15:06 pm
I don't think NFL fans are a monolith. But I agree... those who are mad about this just want the players to shut up.

But they didn't seem to mind it being politicized when the US armed forces paid the league and the teams to hold "support the troops!" ceremonies during games.

 -k

Wrong again!  That's exactly what they are.  That's what fans are in every sport.  It's especially true in terms of football, NFL and College.  Look at soccer in England or Scotland.  Cities like Manchester and Glasgow (among others) have 2 teams and the fans absolutely hate each other, but when they are playing for their country, they become "monolithic" England fans.  You can say the same thing about hockey in Canada. 

NFL is the top dog in the USA, maybe North America.  Fans of one team when at a game, don't care about politics, religion, race or anything else about the person next to them except that they're cheering the same team.  They bond over the common enemy - that being the other team (and their fans).  Fans for the most part want the players to hate each other too - until at least the end of the game, then everybody can rejoin "life".  That's the way it is; and if that changes, it ruins the NFL system.  When the players try to force this change, they're messing with they system.  Players shouldn't divide fans into race, they shouldn't preach they're disgust with the police or the current president. 

Now, one could say "they're doing this for unity", but is it?  Is it unity when players try to turn fans against police?  Is it unity to claim that NOT supporting the players is an act of racism?  Is it unity to protest the anthem/flag that so many fans believe strongly about, that they have suffered for or had family die for?  I know the cynic in you thinks it's a joke or manipulation, and being Canadian, I can see why.  However, to dismiss this as a bunch of brainwashed rubes is wrong, there is much more going on here that speaks to the social side of Americans - sports gives them unity already, It's Monday to Friday that needs changing - not Sunday!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 30, 2017, 03:21:48 pm
Maybe you should learn to read less of your own ideological views into what people write. No one has said its okay to kill 'innocent' black people. I pointed out that people at large are a lot less concerned about what happens to criminals than to other people. If you disagree with this say so. I pointed out that of all the cases I've seen video on or heard about virtually every single one involved, not innocent black people but people telling armed cops to go fuck themselves, and fighting to not be arrested. Do you deny this? If so say so. I'm sure you must have a lot of examples of innocent Black people just calmly walking along when some slavering bastard of a cop walks up and shoots them in the head.

The fact you put quotes around innocent when referring to Black people pretty well sums up your position. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, let's let the courts decide who are criminals before they are penalized.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 03:29:23 pm
The fact you put quotes around innocent when referring to Black people pretty well sums up your position. As has been pointed out to you numerous times, let's let the courts decide who are criminals before they are penalized.

When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 30, 2017, 03:52:24 pm
When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.

Agreed. As I've said before several times, very, very few people are shot while NOT resisting arrest. And if you're resisting arrest you're automatically a criminal.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 30, 2017, 04:22:36 pm
When a person resists arrest and/or starts fighting a cop for possession of his gun, they stop being considered innocent.

And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the fuck stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 30, 2017, 04:50:48 pm
And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the fuck stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.

All of which happens without regard to race. It's not a racial issue. The only people who want to make it a racial issue are Black activists and the Russians.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 06:14:58 pm
And when a cop shoots a 12 year old Black child playing in the park who happens to have a toy, or a Black man reaches for his DL when asked to present it to a cop while he's parked at a gas pump and gets shot, or when an unarmed Black man is arrested, shackled, and then thrown into the back of a paddy wagon with no seat belt and is then driven around wikdly until he sustains enough injury to kill him, who the fuck stops being innocent then? Or is it just your view that if it's a Black man and a white cop it must be the Black's fault? No wonder NFL players take a knee.

Dzikanski (sorry for the misspell) was white, I know of a few FN's as well as whites who have been shot and killed in Canada - most of which I disagree with.  Also, If twice as many whites are shot as blacks, it would stand to reason that the same proportion of inadvertent or wrongful shootings happen to white people - as in the Aussie woman from Minnesota.  I certainly don't want to excuse wrongful deaths at the hands of the police, and believe me, I know first hand of police brutality.  The point I'm making is that it's a circumstance thing, and by proportion, police are called to situations involving blacks at a higher proportion than whites, meaning that the offhand chance of a unfortunate police encounter is higher among blacks than whites. 

I'll also add that when we talk of this issue, we're generally talking "nation wide", where if you break it down by regions (urban/suburban) the picture becomes even more clear.   
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on September 30, 2017, 07:12:26 pm
Dzikanski (sorry for the misspell) was white, I know of a few FN's as well as whites who have been shot and killed in Canada - most of which I disagree with.  Also, If twice as many whites are shot as blacks, it would stand to reason that the same proportion of inadvertent or wrongful shootings happen to white people - as in the Aussie woman from Minnesota.  I certainly don't want to excuse wrongful deaths at the hands of the police, and believe me, I know first hand of police brutality.  The point I'm making is that it's a circumstance thing, and by proportion, police are called to situations involving blacks at a higher proportion than whites, meaning that the offhand chance of a unfortunate police encounter is higher among blacks than whites. 

I'll also add that when we talk of this issue, we're generally talking "nation wide", where if you break it down by regions (urban/suburban) the picture becomes even more clear.

Police, especially in the US have demonstrated many times they do not seem to have an ability to de-escalate a situation. Dash cams have often demonstrated the opposite. That seems to me to go to their lack of training. Isuspect also that there are a lot of cops who shouldn't be cops. To quite Plato, "those who seek power are often unsuited to wield it"
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 30, 2017, 07:37:53 pm
All of which happens without regard to race. It's not a racial issue. The only people who want to make it a racial issue are Black activists and the Russians.

Of course it's a racial issue.  These things don't happen to white people.  They aren't things we have to worry about.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 07:43:42 pm
Of course it's a racial issue.  These things don't happen to white people.  They aren't things we have to worry about.

Your certitude indicates you've spent a lot of time thinking about this...so, maybe you can answer a couple questions.

How do you explain the discrepancy of male:female police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of below poverty:above poverty police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of inner city:suburban police shooting victims?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 30, 2017, 08:18:41 pm
There are always other factors.  It doesn't make it any less of a racial issue.  It doesn't make the dismissal of it any less of a racial issue, either.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 08:23:12 pm
There are always other factors.  It doesn't make it any less of a racial issue.  It doesn't make the dismissal of it any less of a racial issue, either.

3 questions, that's all i'm asking.  Should be simple for a smart guy like you!

How do you explain the discrepancy of male:female police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of below poverty:above poverty police shooting victims?
How do you explain the discrepancy of inner city:suburban police shooting victims?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 30, 2017, 08:31:09 pm
I'll say it again - dismissing it as not a racial issue doesn't make it any less of a racial issue.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 08:34:49 pm
I'll say it again - dismissing it as not a racial issue doesn't make it any less of a racial issue.

Ok, maybe you're not as smart as I thought, I'll simplify; why do more men get killed from police than women?  If you want it to be about race, then answer this; why do more black men get killed from police than black women?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on September 30, 2017, 09:06:50 pm
Of course it's a racial issue.  These things don't happen to white people.  They aren't things we have to worry about.

They don't happen to white people? Are you trying to be ironic or are you putting trolling posts in the wrong topic?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on September 30, 2017, 09:09:53 pm
They don't happen to white people? Are you trying to be ironic or are you putting trolling posts in the wrong topic?

Of course they happen to some white people.  Just not many, or often.

There are a lot of racist people in the world even today.  Some of them happen to be police officers.  Sometimes, it's not such an accident that they're police officers.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on September 30, 2017, 09:19:21 pm
Of course they happen to some white people.  Just not many, or often.

There are a lot of racist people in the world even today.  Some of them happen to be police officers.  Sometimes, it's not such an accident that they're police officers.

Sorry, didn't mean to embarrass you, I really thought you had something (you know, facts..or at least an hypothesis) other than the same tired cliche.

Anyway, that's an open question to anyone here, we'll see what theories are out there.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on October 01, 2017, 01:54:14 pm
Wrong again!  That's exactly what they are.  That's what fans are in every sport.  It's especially true in terms of football, NFL and College.  (...)  They bond over the common enemy - that being the other team (and their fans).  Fans for the most part want the players to hate each other too - until at least the end of the game, then everybody can rejoin "life".  That's the way it is; and if that changes, it ruins the NFL system.  When the players try to force this change, they're messing with they system.

Yes, the feeling of common cause with other fans of your sports team is part of the excitement of the whole experience. I've written about this before... I believe that we're hard-wired to form "tribes" around "causes", and that in our modern world where we don't have real tribes anymore, we form fake tribes-- around things like sports teams, or religions, or political and social causes, or even conspiracy theories.

But it's certainly not the case that Falcons fans all feel the same about this issue, and it's also probably not the case that this issue is viewed the same way in Atlanta as it is seen in Baltimore or in Seattle.

Players shouldn't divide fans into race,

Why would this issue divide fans by race?  Is there some race out there that's in favor of police brutality? I'm not aware of such a race.

they shouldn't preach they're disgust with the police or the current president. 

I don't think anybody said anything about the President until the President inserted himself quite loudly into this debate by calling players "sons of bitches" and telling NFL owners that they should fire players who don't stand during the anthem.

As for being disgusted with police... should NFL players refrain from addressing that when they're on the playing field? Or should they refrain from addressing it at any time, 24/7/365?


And this notion that players shouldn't use their position to express personal views... does that apply to any personal views, or does it only apply to personal views that you don't agree with?  I ask because, once again, many of the people saying the players should just shut up and play football thought it was great when Tim Tebow was using his platform to promote his faith.

"It's great that Tim Tebow is using this opportunity to start a conversation about Jesus!" 
"It's terrible that Colin Kaepernick is using the NFL as a platform for his own personal views."

And I'll grant you that some of the people who thought Tim Tebow was being ridiculous are probably saying the opposite about the players protesting during the anthem, and they're hypocrites as well.

And, I again have to ask: how come all these people who are saying "keep politics out of football!" didn't have anything to say when the US Armed Forces were paying the league millions of dollars to turn games into recruitment advertising?

Now, one could say "they're doing this for unity", but is it?  Is it unity when players try to turn fans against police? 

I'm not sure who's saying "they're doing this for unity".  I think everybody understands that there is some controversy here... if there wasn't, they wouldn't need to do this in the first place.

And the notion that they're "trying to turn fans against police" is a complete misrepresentation of the message here.

Is it unity to claim that NOT supporting the players is an act of racism?  Is it unity to protest the anthem/flag that so many fans believe strongly about, that they have suffered for or had family die for?  I know the cynic in you thinks it's a joke or manipulation, and being Canadian, I can see why. 

To be clear: I think the manipulator here is the President.  The guy who fanned what had been a relatively low-key issue into a national controversy by calling the players "sons of bitches" during his angry rant. People who got all fired up about this because Trump turned it into a big deal are the ones being manipulated.

However, to dismiss this as a bunch of brainwashed rubes is wrong, there is much more going on here that speaks to the social side of Americans - sports gives them unity already, It's Monday to Friday that needs changing - not Sunday!

If people gave a shit about this Monday-to-Friday, this wouldn't be an issue on Sunday. People want the players to shut up about it so that they can ignore the issue seven days a week instead of just six.

 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on October 01, 2017, 02:01:57 pm
"They are shooting black people, but don't show somebody kneeling during the national anthem..."

No wonder they have to protest.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 02:12:02 pm
"They are shooting black people, but don't show somebody kneeling during the national anthem..."

No wonder they have to protest.

No, the police are shooting men.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 02:14:04 pm
Of course they happen to some white people.  Just not many, or often.

In fact, they shoot White people a lot more often than Black people. If you read the cite I provided you would know that.

Quote
There are a lot of racist people in the world even today.  Some of them happen to be police officers.  Sometimes, it's not such an accident that they're police officers.

Pretty irrelevant when you have thus far completely failed to show racism involved in the shootings.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: JMT on October 01, 2017, 02:16:05 pm
In fact, they shoot White people a lot more often than Black people. If you read the cite I provided you would know that.

Pretty irrelevant when you have thus far completely failed to show racism involved in the shootings.

Of course, we know that police shoot blacks in disproportionate numbers.  Don't let that stop your denial.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 02:19:03 pm
Yes, the feeling of common cause with other fans of your sports team is part of the excitement of the whole experience. I've written about this before... I believe that we're hard-wired to form "tribes" around "causes", and that in our modern world where we don't have real tribes anymore, we form fake tribes-- around things like sports teams, or religions, or political and social causes, or even conspiracy theories.

But it's certainly not the case that Falcons fans all feel the same about this issue, and it's also probably not the case that this issue is viewed the same way in Atlanta as it is seen in Baltimore or in Seattle.

Why would this issue divide fans by race?  Is there some race out there that's in favor of police brutality? I'm not aware of such a race.

I don't think anybody said anything about the President until the President inserted himself quite loudly into this debate by calling players "sons of bitches" and telling NFL owners that they should fire players who don't stand during the anthem.

As for being disgusted with police... should NFL players refrain from addressing that when they're on the playing field? Or should they refrain from addressing it at any time, 24/7/365?


And this notion that players shouldn't use their position to express personal views... does that apply to any personal views, or does it only apply to personal views that you don't agree with?  I ask because, once again, many of the people saying the players should just shut up and play football thought it was great when Tim Tebow was using his platform to promote his faith.

"It's great that Tim Tebow is using this opportunity to start a conversation about Jesus!" 
"It's terrible that Colin Kaepernick is using the NFL as a platform for his own personal views."

And I'll grant you that some of the people who thought Tim Tebow was being ridiculous are probably saying the opposite about the players protesting during the anthem, and they're hypocrites as well.

And, I again have to ask: how come all these people who are saying "keep politics out of football!" didn't have anything to say when the US Armed Forces were paying the league millions of dollars to turn games into recruitment advertising?

I'm not sure who's saying "they're doing this for unity".  I think everybody understands that there is some controversy here... if there wasn't, they wouldn't need to do this in the first place.

And the notion that they're "trying to turn fans against police" is a complete misrepresentation of the message here.

To be clear: I think the manipulator here is the President.  The guy who fanned what had been a relatively low-key issue into a national controversy by calling the players "sons of bitches" during his angry rant. People who got all fired up about this because Trump turned it into a big deal are the ones being manipulated.

If people gave a shit about this Monday-to-Friday, this wouldn't be an issue on Sunday. People want the players to shut up about it so that they can ignore the issue seven days a week instead of just six.

 -k

I know you're arguing me here, but i'm just trying to help you understand what the American fans are saying - you don't believe it, but the evidence proves the point.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 02:20:28 pm
"They are shooting black people, but don't show somebody kneeling during the national anthem..."

No wonder they have to protest.

To be more specific, the police are shooting black criminals, mostly who resist arrest. Meanwhile, twenty seven people were shot in Chicago this weekend, several killed, almost all of them Black, almost all by Blacks. Some of them were criminals, and some weren't. But nobody seems to have much care about that. It was almost an improvement over last weekend, when 36 mostly Black people were shot by mostly Black people. Blacks commit violent crimes at 7-10 times the statistical rate as Whtes. White police killed 258 Blacks last year, most of them armed, while 6,000 Blacks were murdered by other Blacks.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler (http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler)
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 02:20:45 pm
Of course, we know that police shoot blacks in disproportionate numbers.  Don't let that stop your denial.

They also shoot men in disproportionate numbers - the real question, one that you avoid is why?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 02:21:52 pm
Of course, we know that police shoot blacks in disproportionate numbers.  Don't let that stop your denial.

Of course we know that Blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers, especially shootings, which means that they're going to be interacting violently with police in disproportionate numbers, but don't let that stop your denial.

From the cite in post 780

"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods."
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Omni on October 01, 2017, 02:31:08 pm
Of course we know that Blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers, especially shootings, which means that they're going to be interacting violently with police in disproportionate numbers, but don't let that stop your denial.

From the cite in post 780

"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods."

I guess when you look at race issues with such a jaundiced eye you believe that all Blacks who have any inter action with a White cop must be at a "criminal" and at fault, even if they are 12 years old playing in a park. Sad.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on October 01, 2017, 02:32:53 pm
They also shoot men in disproportionate numbers - the real question, one that you avoid is why?

Do they ?  I haven't seen that submitted.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: cybercoma on October 01, 2017, 02:39:21 pm
To be more specific, the police are shooting black criminals, mostly who resist arrest.
The penalty for resisting arrest isn’t death, especially when these PEOPLE are unarmed and no immediate threat to those around them.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 02:58:52 pm
Do they ?  I haven't seen that submitted.

You really need a cite to tell you that more men get killed by police than women?
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 03:00:19 pm
The penalty for resisting arrest isn’t death, especially when these PEOPLE are unarmed and no immediate threat to those around them.

It is if the person resisting is fighting for a cops gun. 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on October 01, 2017, 04:12:34 pm
You really need a cite to tell you that more men get killed by police than women?

Hal... do I really need to tell you that 'more' and 'disproportionate' don't mean the same fucking thing ?

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 04:20:31 pm
Hal... do I really need to tell you that 'more' and 'disproportionate' don't mean the same fucking thing ?

Disproportionate to what?

"The black violent crime rate would actually predict that more than 26 percent of police victims would be black," MacDonald said. "Officer use of force will occur where the police interact most often with violent criminals, armed suspects, and those resisting arrest, and that is in black neighborhoods."

Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 04:22:28 pm
The penalty for resisting arrest isn’t death, especially when these PEOPLE are unarmed and no immediate threat to those around them.

Sometimes the penalty is death when you're dealing with emotionally charged situations with hyped up young men and women armed with firearms and who don't have a lot of training. So if some cop (or anyone else) is pointing a gun at you and screaming at you to put your hands in the air, or drop that knife or whatever... maybe you ought to consider doing that.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: MH on October 01, 2017, 04:28:52 pm
Disproportionate to what?

I would pick 'rate of incarceration' so as to isolate variables but tell me if you disagree.
 
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 04:36:45 pm
I would pick 'rate of incarceration' so as to isolate variables but tell me if you disagree.

I would compare the rate to the rate of Black violence, especially gun violence. Seems to stand to reason that if Blacks are involved in gun violence a lot more then they'll be involved in shootings with police a lot more.

But I think the quote I posted sums up my belief on this subject best.
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: kimmy on October 01, 2017, 05:24:14 pm
Let me make it clearer then. There are gross violations of people's human rights all over the world every day, many of them absolutely horrific and against entirely innocent men, women and children. In the context of that, as a TV viewer not exposed personally to any of it, am I supposed to get upset that a lifelong criminal got bounced around in the back of a police van and died after resisting arrest? Do I think that's the way police should act? Fuck no. If you want to google Robert  Dzeikanzski on that other site I think I made my opinion of those cops very clear on multiple occasions.

Yeah, I know you've denounced specific incidents. But there's a bigger issue here, and I'm not sure if you're seeing it.

The reason I lost faith in the RCMP after the Dziekanski incident isn't that one cop accidentally killed one suspect. The reason I lost faith in the RCMP after the Dziekanski incident is all the stuff that happened afterward.

People are content to say "well, it's just one bad apple..."  but how many bad apples were really involved in turning it into the national disgrace it became?  There was Konstable Kwesi, obviously, the Tazer-enthusiast who directly caused Dziekanski's death.  There's the 4 other officers who cooked up a false account of the incident that they presented to investigators who cleared Konstable Kwesi of wrongdoing. There's the investigators themselves, who whitewashed the incident, even though they were in possession of the now-famous video which proved that the account Konstable Kwesi and his colleagues gave was false. There's RCMP media spokesmen like Pierre Lamaitre and Tim Shields who went in front of the media and willfully distributed false information about the information, and distributed information defamatory to the victim in an attempt to justify the killing.  There's the RCMP lawyers who went to court try to keep that now-famous video from being made public, and there's the leadership who decided that trying to prevent that video from being released was the right thing to do.

That isn't one bad apple! That's a whole heck of a lot of bad apples!

And then we got the Braidwood Inquiry, and got even more bad apples, as the RCMP got caught withholding damning emails from Judge Braidwood.

And the eventual result of all this is that Konstable Kwesi got a slap on the wrist sentence for perjury, and one RCMP lawyer lost her job. One of Kwesi's colleagues, Monty Robinson, lost his job later when he ran over a motorcyclist then ran home to drink a bottle of vodka "to calm his nerves" then returned to the scene of the crime, take his breathalyzer test (which revealed that he'd just drunk a bottle of vodka, but could no longer yield any information about how drunk Robinson was while driving, so Robinson got off with a stern finger-wagging from the judge for obstruction of justice). Propaganda officer Tim Shields is currently being investigated for sexually assaulting female officers working under his supervision. And Pierre Lemaitre committed suicide. His widow is suing the RCMP, claiming his death was a result of him being made the scapegoat for the RCMP's lying to the press over the Dziekanski affair.

On the surface, the Dziekanski incident looks like a story about an over-enthusiastic cop who accidentally killed a guy.

But it's actually about a culture with widespread rot and corruption from the root to the highest levels, and they would have got away with all of it if it hadn't been for one guy who went to court to get his cell phone back from the police.

And they still got away with almost all of it.  Konstable Kwesi paid with a few months of jailtime for perjury, a lawyer lost her job. And Pierre Lemaitre paid with his conscience and ultimately his life.  And I'm sure several others involved also suffered terrible punishments like Paid Administrative Leave and Mandatory Sensitivity Training.

And that's appalling.   That's not "a few bad apples", that's a whole culture of sickness.

The phrase "one bad apple" isn't supposed to justify the good apples. It doesn't mean "ok, Kwesi's a bad apple, but they're mostly good," as people tend to use it. The phrase is "don't let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch", and it means that you're supposed to go through your crate and find the rotten apple and get rid of it before the rot spreads to the rest. And I think we learned from the Dziekanski incident that the rot has spread throughout the RCMP.



As for Baltimore, I am sure that many people are content to look at it as just a story of one dumb thug who died during an arrest. But that's not the whole story.

He didn't die during the arrest, or while resisting arrest. He was arrested and secured and posed no threat to anyone. The injuries weren't inflicted during a struggle of any sort, they were inflicted after the struggle. To "teach him a lesson".   And maybe it's tempting to think it's still not that big a deal because the cops involved didn't mean to kill him, they just wanted to rough him up a little so that he'd be smarter next time.

But it's not the first time Baltimore PD have done something like that. The Baltimore PD "rough ride" or "nickel ride" is a tradition that goes back decades.  It's not even the first time the Baltimore PD has killed people during a "rough ride".  Baltimore taxpayers have shelled out tens of millions of dollars over the years settling lawsuits. You might not sympathize much with criminals who get roughed up by cops, but I know you sympathize with taxpayers who get nothing for their civic tax dollars except paying the bill for police shenanigans while the police themselves escape any and all accountability.  The Baltimore PD was ordered to install video cameras inside their vans to deter this kind of thing... somehow they never got around to installing them.

None of the police involved in the death of Freddie Gray received any jail time or punishment. I believe they received a stern finger-wagging for failing to observe the Baltimore PD seat-belt policy for prisoners. Perhaps some of them received the dreaded Paid Administrative Duty or Sensitivity Training.  But they're all still patrolling the streets of Baltimore.

The prosecutor could not prove that any of them deliberately inflicted injuries on Gray. They could only find a few snippets of video evidence of the van, nothing that proved it was being driven recklessly... the didn't have any conclusive proof that Gray was denied medical care when his injuries became apparent. There were specific requirements for the prosecutors to meet to obtain convictions for each of the officers involved, and none of them could be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

But the city knew that when it came to the civil lawsuit, they didn't have a chance. Gray entered the van in one piece, he exited the van with a snapped spine and a smashed up head, and everybody knows what happened in between. There might not have been enough proof to convict "beyond a reasonable doubt", but when you get to civil court and the burden changes, "there's no other plausible explanation" for what happened to Gray is easily enough to win a civil suit, and the city didn't even try to pretend otherwise, they just wrote Gray's family a cheque for $6 million dollars, knowing full well that they'd probably have to pay more if it went to court.

One think I think is very interesting about the case is that a few days after the controversy became well known and people were protesting in the streets, the police department announced there was a witness, who they said had been in the van at the same time as Gray, and who claimed he had heard Gray deliberately banging his head against the walls of the van.  This was trumpeted among people on "the right" as being proof that the police were innocent and that Gray's injuries were self inflicted.

Reporters found that a 2nd passenger had indeed been put into the van, in a 2nd compartment separate from Gray, in the final few minutes of Gray's long ride. They tracked down this supposed witness and the man said that he had never heard any such thing while in the van. And this angle was quickly lost in all the other hub-bub surrounding the story.

But during the trial of the officers, we discovered that by the time this supposed witness had been put in the van, Gray's medical condition had become so severe that there was no possibility that he had done what the police said the supposed witness told them.  By the time the 2nd witness was put in the van, it was medically impossible for Gray to have been banging his head against the wall. So what's up with the police saying this supposed witness told them something that couldn't have actually happened, and that he himself denies having said?   This made me think, once again, of the RCMP and the lies they told during the aftermath of the Dziekanski slaying.

Is the death of Freddie Gray just an isolated incident, or is it the result of long-standing problems in a police department that actually has a long history of officers inflicting injuries on people just for laughs? I suggest that if you think it's just an isolated boo-boo you're terribly naive.

I'm sure that the officers involved in killing Gray were drinking beers and laughing about it after the last of them was acquitted. None of the $6 million came out of their pockets. And you know that when they go on the camera and wipe away tears and talk about how sad they are that Freddie died, what they mean is that they're really sad that they've been charged with his death.

However, I bet that the Baltimore PD did eventually get around to installing those cameras in their vans this time.  It did take national media attention and half the city getting burned down, but I bet they finally got those cameras installed.

Remember, nobody in any job fails to make mistakes. Cops are in jobs where they're going to make mistakes. And that's particularly so when violence is involved. So a lot of people are willing to cut them some slack in most situations. Neither the Sammy Yatim case, nor the Robert Dziekanski case such situations for me. Nor is the Justine Damond case.

I understand those mistakes, during struggle or in the heat of the moment.  But that's not what upsets me.  What upsets me is the coverup and lies and and "blue shield" code and all of that stuff. Kwesi Millington's actions on the night Robert Dziekanski died didn't have to turn into a national disgrace. It didn't even have to be the end of Millington's career. It was the decisions made afterward that turned it into what it became.


 -k
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: Hal 9000 on October 01, 2017, 05:57:10 pm
Hal... do I really need to tell you that 'more' and 'disproportionate' don't mean the same fucking thing ?

But, it's clearly disproportionate as well?  You're just another one who can't answer the question!
Title: Re: The Donald Trump Thread
Post by: SirJohn on October 01, 2017, 06:14:47 pm
Yeah, I know you've denounced specific incidents. But there's a bigger issue here, and I'm not sure if you're seeing it.

Seen it, commented on it before. I said at the time that not only should all four of them be fired but so should the RCMP officers who defended them, including the 'use of force' sergeant who testified at the inquest that they followed procedure. I was also bloody mad at all the mess at the G20, not just the cops who arrested people or assaulted people for no justifiable reason, but all the others who testified afterward that the didn't see anything, or didn't see what happened.

Why does this happen? Because it's the nature of a paramilitary organization which cherishes esprit de corps and machismo to see itself as elite, and to see itself as a brotherhood (and sisterhood), as us against 'them' whoever the them is. I have heard that nobody really understands police like police, and because of that they tend to gravitate towards each other even outside of work, as friends. As such, we see numerous instances where cops cover up for what other cops are doing, or even lie on their behalf. I don't know what to do about that other than equipping them all with cameras they can't turn off, and firing anyone whose official report conflicts with his camera.

West Point has an honor code which says that you'll be kicked out not simply for lying, cheating or stealing, but if you