Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: JBG on September 30, 2018, 03:29:48 pm

Title: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: JBG on September 30, 2018, 03:29:48 pm
Ban the Box Campaign (http://"https://bantheboxcampaign.org/") is an effort to ensure the inclusion of people who had earlier, youthful offenses in society. Below is the "Fair Chance Pledge" that supporters take:

Quote
As an individual, I pledge…

To always welcome formerly incarcerated peoples into my community

To support changes in policies that discriminate against the formerly incarcerated

As an employer, I pledge…

To hire and support the formerly incarcerated

To support the elimination of any restrictions on participation that may exclude the formerly incarcerated

To encourage others to also institute fair hiring practices
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbantheboxcampaign.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2Flogo-aouon.jpg&hash=94514261368a1621278fbbb371b0035701e51a7b)

This is unabashedly liberal and salutary. What someone does as a youngster should not live with them forever.

For example I am now a successful lawyer. But I have had some shortcomings. Among others:

Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: the_squid on September 30, 2018, 06:07:41 pm
Quote
What someone does as a youngster should not live with them forever.

What f it was raping, or attempting to rape, someone? 

Do you equate your listed shortcomings with that?   How long should attempted rape disqualify someone to be a judge on the Supreme Court (for instance)?

Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: JBG on September 30, 2018, 08:16:39 pm
What f it was raping, or attempting to rape, someone? 

Do you equate your listed shortcomings with that?   How long should attempted rape disqualify someone to be a judge on the Supreme Court (for instance)?
I didn't bring up Kavanaugh. You did.

But where's the evidence?
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: Omni on September 30, 2018, 08:27:53 pm
I didn't bring up Kavanaugh. You did.

But where's the evidence?

Let's see what teh FBI comes up with.

In any case someone who cries and snivells and blabs on about how much he likes beer doesn't look to me like someone you want on the high court.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: kimmy on October 01, 2018, 01:08:17 am
I didn't bring up Kavanaugh. You did.

Yeah, well, your post seems to hint at a certain intent.

But where's the evidence?

To put Kavanaugh in jail we'd need evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. But we're not talking about putting him in jail, we're talking about giving him a lifetime appointment to one of the most prestigious jobs in the United States.

One would hope that the bar for Supreme Court nominees is set just a little higher than "not proven to be a sex predator".


And surely not all "youthful transgressions" are equal.  I'd suggest that there's quite a leap from stealing a 12 cent ice cream bar in 4th grade to committing sexual assault as a high school senior.

And, leaving aside the question of whether he assaulted a girl as a 17 year old... we've seen his dishonest testimony and his work history, and that's enough to know that he doesn't deserve the job.  Maybe he should just stay at his current job, or become a legal analyst on Fox News. He'd probably be a big hit there.

This whole process would have gone much smoother if they had found another nominee of Neil Gorsuch's calibre.   I'm sure the Democrats would have loved to have taken down Mr Gorsuch too... but aside from being angry about his conservative politics, they couldn't find anything to attack him with.  He was unassailable-- as one would hope for in a candidate for a job where integrity and character are paramount.   After seeing Kavanaugh's testimony this past month, and especially last Thursday, integrity and character are not two words that come to mind.  There are plenty of other conservative judges they could look at... why are they so hung up on this particular one?

 -k
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: JBG on October 01, 2018, 04:05:30 am
Let's see what teh FBI comes up with.

In any case someone who cries and snivells and blabs on about how much he likes beer doesn't look to me like someone you want on the high court.
He was giving an honest picture of his life as an adolescent in high school and a near-adolescent in college. The centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the process of atonement for sins and forgiveness. See generally, on atonement, Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement - Judaism 101 (http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm).

But forgiveness by the victim is a somewhat different issue. In a link on Interpersonal Relationships (link) (https://torah.org/learning/yomtov-yomkippur-vol1no45/), the writer posits, I think correctly, that as a general matter a victim must forgive in order to receive absolution from his own sins:
Quote from: torah.org
The Mishna in Yoma is telling us that before one can be forgiven for a sin committed against another person, such as embarrassing the person, stealing from the person , etc., the “victim” must forgive the person who committed the act against him. Only then will Hashem forgive the person for the disregard of His commands.



*****************

We must remember as we approach Yom Kippur that in order to acheive atonement, we must ask all those who we have harmed for forgiveness. In order to truly repent, we must make a firm comittment to “be nice” to our neighbor – to be sensative to others’ needs and situations, and act accordingly, in a way that will not necessitate a visit before the next Yom Kippur to ask for forgiveness.
The point being that long-ago transgressions, even if they actually happened (which is in doubt here) should not be a factor if the person has no recent behavior of this kind.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 01, 2018, 06:30:50 am
In the law, judges are held in high regard and it's preferred they don't lie under oath about stupid things like what devil's triangle or Renate alumnus means, or whether they remember their youthful transgressions. In the United States, the Supreme Court is the highest court, and people who lie under oath should never be appointed there.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: segnosaur on October 01, 2018, 10:26:25 am
    The
Ban the Box Campaign (http://"https://bantheboxcampaign.org/") is an effort to ensure the inclusion of people who had earlier, youthful offenses in society. Below is the "Fair Chance Pledge" that supporters take:

This is unabashedly liberal and salutary. What someone does as a youngster should not live with them forever.

For example I am now a successful lawyer. But I have had some shortcomings. Among others:
(list of minor problems deleted for space)
Whether someone's past offenses should count against them depends on a few factors:

- The type of crime (murder is certainly more significant than shoplifting and the amount of 'inclusion' a society should extend will differ accordingly. (Since this issue is semi-related to Kavanaugh, I'd say that attempted rape probably sits closer to the less-forgivable end of the spectrum)

- What exactly 'inclusion' means. Allow the person to work at your local Burger house? Sure, why not. Have them appointed to one of the most powerful positions in the free world? A bit less inclusion might be warranted here

- Whether the individual seems to have acknowledged their failings. If, for example, Kavanaugh had admitted "Yeah I definitely drank to much and acted like a real jerk to women. But I'm a better person now" then perhaps his transgressions might potentially be overlooked. On the other hand, when you attempt to minimize your past, even lying about it, then the "past offenses" are no longer in the past... they are current and ongoing, as the cover up is now part of the crime.

[/list]
Title: Not Within Civil Discourse
Post by: JBG on October 01, 2018, 08:42:13 pm
Is this "professor" educating students? Who would pay $50,000 a year for this? First the professor's background:
Quote
C. Christine Fair is a Provost’s Distinguished Associate Professor in the Security Studies Program within Georgetown University’s Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service. She previously served as a senior political scientist with the RAND Corporation, a political officer with the United Nations Assistance Mission to Afghanistan in Kabul, and a senior research associate at USIP’s Center for Conflict Analysis and Prevention.
Source-Georgetown Website (http://"https://gufaculty360.georgetown.edu/s/contact/00336000014Re4cAAC/christine-fair")

This is a sampling of one of her tweets, indeed one of the few that didn't use filtered words not acceptable under the Terms of Service.Link to Tweet (http://"https://twitter.com/CChristineFair/status/1046126201771872256")
Quote from: Carol Christine Fair
(((Christine Fair)))
‏Verified account @CChristineFair

(((Christine Fair))) Retweeted Josh Marshall

Look at thus chorus of entitled white men justifying a serial rapist's arrogated entitlement.
All of them deserve miserable deaths while feminists laugh as they take their last gasps. Bonus: we castrate their corpses and feed them to swine? Yes.
Is this even within the realm of civil discourse?
Title: Re: Not Within Civil Discourse
Post by: the_squid on October 01, 2018, 10:21:03 pm
Is this "professor" educating students? Who would pay $50,000 a year for this? First the professor's background:Source-Georgetown Website (http://"https://gufaculty360.georgetown.edu/s/contact/00336000014Re4cAAC/christine-fair")

This is a sampling of one of her tweets, indeed one of the few that didn't use filtered words not acceptable under the Terms of Service.Link to Tweet (http://"https://twitter.com/CChristineFair/status/1046126201771872256") Is this even within the realm of civil discourse?

What does this have to do with the topic you started???   ::)
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 01, 2018, 10:41:51 pm
I think he's arguing that her juvenile activity shouldn't be held against her, but it's hard to say for sure.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: kimmy on October 02, 2018, 12:51:42 am
He was giving an honest picture of his life as an adolescent in high school and a near-adolescent in college. The centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the process of atonement for sins and forgiveness. See generally, on atonement, Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement - Judaism 101 (http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm).

But forgiveness by the victim is a somewhat different issue. In a link on Interpersonal Relationships (link) (https://torah.org/learning/yomtov-yomkippur-vol1no45/), the writer posits, I think correctly, that as a general matter a victim must forgive in order to receive absolution from his own sins:

Of all the rationalizations for putting Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court I've heard, the suggestion that it will help Mrs Blasey-Ford get to heaven is undoubtedly the most novel.

The point being that long-ago transgressions, even if they actually happened (which is in doubt here) should not be a factor if the person has no recent behavior of this kind.

I have some follow-up questions:

 -if we're ranking transgressions in terms of severity, where does lying to senators under oath fall? Is that closer to the 12 cent ice cream bar end of the scale, or closer to the sexual assault end of the scale?

 -does last month still count as long-ago?

 -does 53 years old count as youthful?


 -k
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: kimmy on October 02, 2018, 10:05:47 am
He was giving an honest picture of his life as an adolescent in high school and a near-adolescent in college.

I forgot that I also wanted to highlight the use of the word "adolescent" here.  I once called out the waldo for an equally elastic use of the word in excusing the conduct of migrants, and I would be remiss in not mentioning it again here.

Nobody really uses the word "adolescent" to describe someone in their late teens or older. And if we were discussing a common street criminal instead of a privileged young man, I'm sure that instead of "an adolescent in high school and a near adolescent in college" you'd be discussing a "near adult in high-school and an adult in college".  This "but he was just a boy" sympathy only extends to people we're already inclined to be sympathetic to.  We regularly hear of efforts to have 17 year olds tried as adults. I've never heard of an effort to have a college student tried as a juvenile.

By the time you're 17 years old you already have a fully functional understanding of right and wrong.

 -k
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: segnosaur on October 02, 2018, 12:35:26 pm
He was giving an honest picture of his life as an adolescent in high school and a near-adolescent in college.
That's the issue... many people don't think he was giving an 'honest picture of HIS life as an adolescent'. His... "unusual" (i.e. nobody else in the world uses them) definitions... for example the 'Renate Alumnus' or 'Devils Triangle' description. His attempts to minimize his alcohol consumption and its effects on him (multiple witnesses have described him as a rather 'mean drunk', which he conveniently never mentioned. Just that he "liked beer").
Quote
The centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the process of atonement...
To 'atone' he has to admit there was an issue.

If he issued a statement saying "when I was younger I drank too much and acted badly, and I apologize. I am a better person now" then its possible that he really is interested in atonement. But instead he went on the warpath... suggesting there was some sort of Clinton conspiracy, attacking the senators that were questioning him. That's not the attitude for someone seeking 'atonement'. That's someone who was a jerk in the past, and who is still a jerk.

Heck, if nothing else, the Clinton Conspiracy claims he made during the hearing should disqualify him, since it would call his ability to remain impartial into question.

Quote
But forgiveness by the victim is a somewhat different issue. In a link on Interpersonal Relationships (link) (https://torah.org/learning/yomtov-yomkippur-vol1no45/), the writer posits, I think correctly, that as a general matter a victim must forgive in order to receive absolution from his own sins:
Which would only be relevant if 1) there was a god, and 2) that god actually subscribe to the same ideas.

There is more evidence that Ford is telling the truth and that Kavanaugh is lying than there is for your god.

Quote
The point being that long-ago transgressions, even if they actually happened (which is in doubt here) should not be a factor if the person has no recent behavior of this kind.
Once again....

- Whether a past transgression should be a factor depends on the type of transgression and just what the potential 'job' is

- Its all irrelevant because Kavanaugh's failure to own up to his mistakes and his probable lies/cover ups mean that his transgressions are not 'long ago'... they are part of his current personality.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: segnosaur on October 02, 2018, 01:01:29 pm
Since this thread has become a sort of "Kavanaugh confirmation" thread (either by design or accident), I thought this was rather significant.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4501767/halifax-artist-kavanaugh-cartoon/

Its about a (now famous) cartoon, showing 'lady justice' being held down with a hand over her mouth, by assailants that are unseen but who are wearing Republican cufflinks.

Personally I think its a perfect cartoon... it both reflects some of the details of the Ford assault claim, and highlights both the assault on justice, and Republican efforts to stifle investigations into the incident (failure to call additional witnesses or to get the FBI involved until forced to by Flake.)
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: ?Impact on October 02, 2018, 01:02:26 pm
IThis "but he was just a boy" sympathy only extends to people we're already inclined to be sympathetic to.

Yes, it is quite amazing that those defending Kavanaugh are the ones that spend most of their time wanting to give a 17 year old black kid the electric chair for stealing a pair of earphones.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: the_squid on October 02, 2018, 05:32:29 pm
Yes, it is quite amazing that those defending Kavanaugh are the ones that spend most of their time wanting to give a 17 year old black kid the electric chair for stealing a pair of earphones.

I get your point, but this is not a court of law though...   you're confusing a political process for a legal process. 

People defending Kavanaugh are guilty of the same thing...  "innocent until proven guilty", "reasonable doubt" and other nonsense.   This is not a courtroom, it's a job interview.
Title: Re: Don't Hold Juvenile Activity Against People - Minorities and Professionals
Post by: MH on October 03, 2018, 06:52:26 am
Yes, it is quite amazing that those defending Kavanaugh are the ones that spend most of their time wanting to give a 17 year old black kid the electric chair for stealing a pair of earphones.

You are echoing the Christie Blatchford column I quoted earlier. 

On paper, there is a path to redemption for such crimes.  People have posted about apologizing and making amends.  But in this era it seems impossible, and nobody has done it as far as I can remember.  If we don't celebrate forgiveness, only punishment, how can this happen ?