Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: MH on September 10, 2018, 05:33:16 pm

Title: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 10, 2018, 05:33:16 pm
So... two major court cases lost and now the buffoon is going to use the Notwithstanding clause.

Over basically nothing.

We will have had two major uses of it:

1) By Quebec to appease separatists and disallow English in some contexts - a debatable historical necessity
2) And now, because Doug doesn't think the courts should overrule him
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 10, 2018, 05:54:42 pm
The courts ruling was that Ford presented little evidence to support a hastily prepared argument that the legislation would result in more effective representation or that it would make council more efficient and save money. He tried to change the rules in the middle of a city campaign, another idiotic move. Who elected this reactionary moron anyway?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 10, 2018, 06:41:07 pm
The courts ruling was that Ford presented little evidence to support a hastily prepared argument that the legislation would result in more effective representation or that it would make council more efficient and save money. He tried to change the rules in the middle of a city campaign, another idiotic move. Who elected this reactionary moron anyway?

The people.

As far as I'm aware the municipalities are creations of the provinces, who can do basically anything they want to them, including abolishing them. The judge's complaint that there wasn't enough consultation or that there wasn't evidence that it would be more efficient strikes me as ... so? I mean, so what? They don't need to do that to change the rules for cities all they want. There's no requirement for consultations and there's absolutely no need to demonstrate in legislation that a proposed change to 'improve efficiency' actually will. We've seen numerous such changes over the years at all levels of government to 'improve efficiency' and how many of them actually did? The courts don't get to look over the goverment's shoulder to judge whether a change is going to be efficient or not. That's not their responsibility and they have no particular training for it. I'm fairly confident this will be reversed on appeal. It certainly should be! I can only speculate they decided to use the notwithstanding clause because of the time constraints.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 10, 2018, 07:03:49 pm
The people.

As far as I'm aware the municipalities are creations of the provinces, who can do basically anything they want to them, including abolishing them. The judge's complaint that there wasn't enough consultation or that there wasn't evidence that it would be more efficient strikes me as ... so?


From the judgement:
Quote
At first glance, Bill 5 although controversial in content appears to fall squarely within the province’s legislative competence. Upon closer examination of the surrounding circumstances, however, one discovers at least two constitutional deficiencies that cannot be justified in a free and democratic society. The first relates to the timing of the law and its impact on candidates; the second to its content and its impact on voters.
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/scj/decisions/

A Province's powers are not absolute....   
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 10, 2018, 09:05:58 pm
I support the reduction in wards, it's a bit ridiculous right now.  It's not the GTA remember, it's 47 wards for Toronto, double the number of provincial and federal constituencies for the city i believe.

But you also don't do this during an election, so I'm with the judge i think.  Just wait until after the election Dougie, don't use the clause.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 10, 2018, 10:08:22 pm
You can't have the boundaries of constituencies be dramatically redrawn and have candidates have to significantly change their campaign strategies and have half the city's residents have a new set of candidates in their riding just 6 weeks before an election.  It's insane.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 11, 2018, 05:45:54 am
I agree with Graham.  Whatever the motivation here, the government of Ontario can do what it wants however not recklessly.  I think the next Luberal government should use the notwithstanding clause to ban the PCs😉
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2018, 03:08:32 pm

From the judgement:http://www.ontariocourts.ca/scj/decisions/

A Province's powers are not absolute....

“While the SCC has used s 2(b) to protect electoral fairness especially with respect to political financing ... it’s a novel argument to say that it protects the ‘right to cast a ballot that can result in effective representation,’” Dawood wrote.

“People often make the mistake of calling judicial decisions they disagree with activist. This is not one of those cases,” Anglin writes. “Because the judge couldn’t invoke Section 3 of the Charter (which doesn’t apply to municipalities), he wrote himself a new Charter in which Section 2 does the work of Section 3.”
Anglin said that the judge’s argument concerning political rights under Section 3 of the Charter “doesn't apply to municipal elections” and that the argument Belobaba made rests on “two inapplicable” Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) precedents.

“the court's reliance on the free expression rights of voters and candidates is problematic for several reasons. It distorts the idea of free expression - and runs contrary to existing SCC decisions.”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/legal-scholars-surprised-by-judge-s-reasoning-in-toronto-council-cuts-decision-1.4087964
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2018, 03:09:52 pm
I agree with Graham.  Whatever the motivation here, the government of Ontario can do what it wants however not recklessly.  I think the next Luberal government should use the notwithstanding clause to ban the PCs😉

Can't be done. And if it could, don't you think Harper, who loathed the Liberals, would have at least considered doing it?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2018, 03:15:30 pm
Can't be done. And if it could, don't you think Harper, who loathed the Liberals, would have at least considered doing it?

Harper ran afoul of the electorate before he could try that.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2018, 03:18:32 pm
Harper ran afoul of the electorate before he could try that.

He was in power almost ten years. I think he had more than enough time.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2018, 03:28:08 pm
He was in power almost ten years. I think he had more than enough time.

I suspect being found in contempt of parliament scared him off.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 11, 2018, 03:41:18 pm
I support the reduction in wards, it's a bit ridiculous right now.  It's not the GTA remember, it's 47 wards for Toronto, double the number of provincial and federal constituencies for the city i believe.

But you also don't do this during an election, so I'm with the judge i think.  Just wait until after the election Dougie, don't use the clause.

Why is it ridiculous? You realize there are many provincial/federal constituencies that have many cities and towns in them with dozens of municipal representatives?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 11, 2018, 05:00:29 pm
Why is it ridiculous? You realize there are many provincial/federal constituencies that have many cities and towns in them with dozens of municipal representatives?

Go look at the map at the boundary size of some of the wards in Toronto.  There's 25 provincial and federal constituencies in Toronto, yet 47 municipal constituencies.  Double?  Really?  That's a bit ridiculous.

Let's look at the new boundaries for Ward 20:  https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/973b-Ward20_map.pdf
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 11, 2018, 05:35:42 pm
Go look at the map at the boundary size of some of the wards in Toronto.

Yes, that is about 2:1, where in other parts of Ontario it is well over 10:1.

What again is the problem, do you think that Toronto should be way less represented than the rest of the province?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 11, 2018, 06:47:26 pm
Municipal councillors deal with issues on a more granular level than their provincial and federal counterparts. Regular people are more likely to deal directly with their councillor than an MP or MPP (we call them MLAs in Manitoba) because municipal politicians are in charge of most of the things that directly affect people, like roads and permits and snow clearing. Winnipeg once had 50 councillors but the PC government in the 1970s reduced it to 29. Then the PC government reduced it to 15 in the 1990s. Both reductions not only made it much more difficult to get a councillor to respond to your concerns, it made it more difficult for ordinary people to enter politics because it became more competitive and expensive to run.

In any case, the governments in the past were rational and gave lots of warning of the changes. They didn't just do it to fuck everything up out of spite.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 11, 2018, 09:30:51 pm
Can't be done. And if it could, don't you think Harper, who loathed the Liberals, would have at least considered doing it?

You really don't understand.  It's like Executive Orders - the abuse gets worse with each leader....
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 11, 2018, 09:33:22 pm
He was in power almost ten years. I think he had more than enough time.

He had an idea of perspective.  He knew how democracy worked.

He would never have considered it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 11, 2018, 09:34:55 pm
Go look at the map at the boundary size of some of the wards in Toronto.  There's 25 provincial and federal constituencies in Toronto, yet 47 municipal constituencies.  Double?  Really?  That's a bit ridiculous.

Let's look at the new boundaries for Ward 20:  https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/973b-Ward20_map.pdf



What's the ward size in other cities?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 12, 2018, 05:36:08 am
https://www.london.ca/city-hall/city-council/pages/electoral-ward-map.aspx

London appears to have very small wards... not an issue.  Ottawa also... 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 11:57:56 am
He had an idea of perspective.  He knew how democracy worked.

He would never have considered it.

More like he lacked the courage of his convictions - which I have said often enough before.
Democracy works when elected bodies make decisions, not partisan appointed judges.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 12, 2018, 12:11:25 pm
Are you saying politicians shouldn't be bound by the courts?

Why Trudeau's willing to let Ford deploy the notwithstanding clause
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ford-trudeau-toronto-notwithstanding-1.4819172

Trudeau could kill the Ontario law but he understands the idea of overreach.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 12, 2018, 12:53:30 pm
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 12, 2018, 01:06:13 pm
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.

The remedy outlined by the court was proper consultation with the city, public and not doing this in the middle of an election.

Instead of doing those things, Doug Ford has decided to use a sledge hammer and invoke the Notwithstanding when he didn't need to.   It's oafish governing at best.

Or the gov't of Ontario could appeal...   no...   DoFo has to do this NOW....   why?  No one knows...   not even DoFo.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 07:08:42 pm
Are you saying politicians shouldn't be bound by the courts?

It's not that simple or simplistic. I wish we had a judiciary which did its job properly, in an unbiased fashion, without inserting their own ideological prejudices. I think that's fundamentally necessary. I just don't think we have that. I think we have an arrogant, activist judiciary who are, more and more, coming to see themselves as supervisors of the elected politicians as opposed to simply comparing laws to the constitution.

Quote
Trudeau could kill the Ontario law but he understands the idea of overreach.

Or he understands what a can of worms he would be opening by overturning it. Why not do that for Bill 101? Why not do that for the law BC passed about the pipelines? Not to mention every premier would be up in arms.

Hardly worth it over a few city councilors.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 07:10:27 pm
The remedy outlined by the court was proper consultation with the city, public and not doing this in the middle of an election.

None of which are requirements under the constitution.

Quote
Or the gov't of Ontario could appeal...   no...   DoFo has to do this NOW....   why?  No one knows...   not even DoFo.

Maybe because the election is next month? It would not even surprise me if the judge in question expected to have his ruling overturned, but hoped it would be too late to affect the election.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 12, 2018, 07:12:09 pm
None of which are requirements under the constitution.


Who said it was? 

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 07:15:12 pm
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.

I'm going to assume you wrote that mistakenly. Parliament creates and enacts laws. Judges are only supposed to examine whether the laws are constitutional when a complaint is made.

This is the conflict between judicial activism, which prevails in Canada, and originalism or constructivism. I regard judicial activism as fundamentally undemocratic.

Strict constructivism means reading and applying the words of the law precisely as they are written. No more and no less is the intention, and the judge's role is not to interpret. Once the meaning of the text is understood, then the law is applied as such.

Judicial activism involves judges ruling in a manner in which they promote a decision based on their own political/ideological feelings and opinions toward shaping public policy. Detractors feel that this undermines legitimate and impartial judicial review, while proponents feel that legal interpretation should change with the times.

Originalism is the practice of looking at the legal framework in place ( the Constitution), and keeping in mind the purposes and intentions with which the applicable parts were written, judging in accordance (as best as can be determined) with the spirit and intention of the law as it was written. Often originalism is equated with strict constructivism, but they're not really the same exact thing.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 07:20:06 pm
Who said it was?

Apparently the judge. Else how can they be remedies?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 12, 2018, 07:32:20 pm
Apparently the judge. Else how can they be remedies?

So you think the Constitution is a comprehensive document that lays out all the potential violations and remedies?

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2018, 08:10:01 pm
So you think the Constitution is a comprehensive document that lays out all the potential violations and remedies?

I prefer the style of interpretation which looks at the intent and words of the framers of the constitution and does not try to substitute ones own opinion on things for theirs.
I refer you to one of the critiques of this judge's finding.

“Because the judge couldn’t invoke Section 3 of the Charter (which doesn’t apply to municipalities), he wrote himself a new Charter in which Section 2 does the work of Section 3.”
Anglin said that the judge’s argument concerning political rights under Section 3 of the Charter “doesn't apply to municipal elections” and that the argument Belobaba made rests on “two inapplicable” Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) precedents.


This is judicial activism, as far as I can see. And I much prefer originalism or constructivism.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 12, 2018, 08:16:32 pm
I'm going to assume you wrote that mistakenly. Parliament creates and enacts laws. Judges are only supposed to examine whether the laws are constitutional when a complaint is made.

This is the conflict between judicial activism, which prevails in Canada, and originalism or constructivism. I regard judicial activism as fundamentally undemocratic.

Strict constructivism means reading and applying the words of the law precisely as they are written. No more and no less is the intention, and the judge's role is not to interpret. Once the meaning of the text is understood, then the law is applied as such.

Judicial activism involves judges ruling in a manner in which they promote a decision based on their own political/ideological feelings and opinions toward shaping public policy. Detractors feel that this undermines legitimate and impartial judicial review, while proponents feel that legal interpretation should change with the times.

Originalism is the practice of looking at the legal framework in place ( the Constitution), and keeping in mind the purposes and intentions with which the applicable parts were written, judging in accordance (as best as can be determined) with the spirit and intention of the law as it was written. Often originalism is equated with strict constructivism, but they're not really the same exact thing.


So who do you think should interpret laws if not a judge? Is this more Fraser Institute screed?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 12, 2018, 11:35:56 pm
I don't know what's worse: Ford setting bad precedent for using rare extraordinary powers, or the NDP getting booted from the legislature during the vote for behaving like moronic college kids by refusing to stop shouting down the PC's and chanting "shame".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queens-park-council-cutting-bill-1.4820139
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 12:46:27 am
I don't know what's worse: Ford setting bad precedent for using rare extraordinary powers, or the NDP getting booted from the legislature during the vote for behaving like moronic college kids by refusing to stop shouting down the PC's and chanting "shame".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queens-park-council-cutting-bill-1.4820139

You can’t tell what’s worse....???
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 13, 2018, 06:18:57 am

Or he understands what a can of worms he would be opening by overturning it. Why not do that for Bill 101? Why not do that for the law BC passed about the pipelines? Not to mention every premier would be up in arms.

Well, of course, and everyone knows the politics lies behind any of these decisions.  But when you have a Trumpian asshole in power, that effectively means there is no political firewall left.

Quote
Hardly worth it over a few city councilors.

Agreed.  But it wasn't in the first place.  The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.

Doug is going to be the shittiest premier ever, I am certain.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: TimG on September 13, 2018, 09:04:41 am
The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.
I can't figure out why people think it would make more sense to delay the bill to after the election and then force a new election because 1/2 of the Councillors are fired. Seems to me the opposition to Ford is more driven by partisan posturing rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 13, 2018, 09:49:44 am
Or you approach it rationally and change the boundaries and number of seats in a public, non-political, consultative way, and implement the changes with plenty of time for the election in 2022. Nobody needs to get fired before their term is up. It's not like it's an emergency situation that has to be dealt with right now.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2018, 09:59:21 am
I can't figure out why people think it would make more sense to delay the bill to after the election and then force a new election because 1/2 of the Councillors are fired.
Because it sets a god damned ridiculous precedent when a provincial leader can rig an election, redrawing boundaries, during the election.

How about this scenario?

Ohhh the social democrats are losing city council in Toronto, but a small margin.....no worries the NDP premier will just redraw the boundaries during the election to secure a win.


It's fucking ridiculous and baffling that people actually support it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: TimG on September 13, 2018, 11:45:12 am
Because it sets a god damned ridiculous precedent when a provincial leader can rig an election, redrawing boundaries, during the election.
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

I also think there was no rush and Ford was dumb to push it through. But his opponents are much more hysterical in their opposition.

As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation). This is not the "first use" that I would have chosen but we have to start somewhere. Personally, I would prefer that we did not have judges that felt it was their right to invent ridiculous charter interpretations to rationalize ruling in ways that suit their political dispositions. But since those are the judges we have we will have to live with the use of the notwithstanding clause.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 12:02:24 pm
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

The judge didn’t say it was unreasonable or that the Province could not do it.

Quote
I also think there was no rush and Ford was dumb to push it through. But his opponents are much more hysterical in their opposition.

The judge agrees with you.   It was a rush job not done correctly.

What makes his opponents hysterical?


Quote
As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation).


Routine?   It has never been used in Ontario.   How is it routine?


Quote
This is not the "first use" that I would have chosen but we have to start somewhere. Personally, I would prefer that we did not have judges that felt it was their right to invent ridiculous charter interpretations to rationalize ruling in ways that suit their political dispositions. But since those are the judges we have we will have to live with the use of the notwithstanding clause.

Why would anyone have to start with this if the remedy is an appeal, or going through a proper process to make the change?   That’s nonsense.

You essentially agree with the judge that Ford shouldn’t have done this the way he did....   and yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...    this view is the view of a partisan hack who will agree with their guy, even if they think he’s wrong!   ::)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2018, 12:05:19 pm
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election.
That is eventuality that you're allowing by supporting the idea that the premier can change the seats in the middle of an election, whether that's what he's doing now or not. Someone later WILL do that and they will have this precedent to lean upon, if you allow the premier to change seats DURING an election.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 01:18:58 pm
Seems to me the opposition to Ford is more driven by partisan posturing rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).

The opposition to Ford is driven by the stupidity of his actions. There was no sober assessment done by Doug Ford, in fact that is what the judgement that you are so freaked out about was saying.

I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

No, it was driven by pure hate mongering rhetoric. We have 325 members of Parliament, and it was a Conservative that increased it to that number. A Conservative that Doug Ford supports. This is pure stupidity, dog whistle politics to rile his dumb ass base. Ford wants to create an enemy, just like Dotard always does. He says the councilors are the enemy of the people, and his sheep continue to bray along.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 02:27:55 pm
So who do you think should interpret laws if not a judge? Is this more Fraser Institute screed?

Prior to the Charter, Parliament had the ultimate authority. It rarely overruled the Supreme Court, but it's ability to do so helped keep the judges in check. Parliamentary sovereignty was absolute - as it remains in the United Kingdom.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 02:29:21 pm
Well, of course, and everyone knows the politics lies behind any of these decisions.  But when you have a Trumpian asshole in power, that effectively means there is no political firewall left.

Ford is not Trump. He's nothing like Trump other than being somewhat of a populist.

Quote
Agreed.  But it wasn't in the first place.  The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.

Perhaps, but the judgement was overreach too.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 02:33:59 pm
You essentially agree with the judge that Ford shouldn’t have done this the way he did....   and yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...    this view is the view of a partisan hack who will agree with their guy, even if they think he’s wrong!   ::)

I have attempted to explain to you guys that conservatives have a big problem with judicial overreach and have had for a long time. If the judge's ruling drawn a clear line between the constitution and Ford's actions I would have a different reaction, but to me the judgement was a blatant example of a judge saying "Okay, I'm going to decide to overrule this because I don't like this asshole Ford. Now then, let's see, how can I excuse my decision as if it was based on the constitution. Hmm, maybe if I take this clause and twist it that way, and then pull it over to stretch across here, and then pretend that and then... yeah, that sounds kinda stupid but it'll do."
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 13, 2018, 02:42:05 pm
Prior to the Charter, Parliament had the ultimate authority. It rarely overruled the Supreme Court, but it's ability to do so helped keep the judges in check. Parliamentary sovereignty was absolute - as it remains in the United Kingdom.

Yep, so what does that have to do with my comment? I, along with the majority of the electorate in Canada, prefer to have the SCC have power to apply the constitution if parliament tries to enact laws that contravene it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 02:47:49 pm
Yep, so what does that have to do with my comment?

Answers it.

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I, along with the majority of the electorate in Canada, prefer to have the SCC have power to apply the constitution if parliament tries to enact laws that contravene it.

The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter. It was never mentioned during the 1980 election, and Trudeau did not put it to the electorate before ramming it through the House in 1982. Trudeau didn't give a shit what the electorate thought or said or wanted.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 13, 2018, 02:59:04 pm
Answers it.

The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter. It was never mentioned during the 1980 election, and Trudeau did not put it to the electorate before ramming it through the House in 1982. Trudeau didn't give a shit what the electorate thought or said or wanted.

Didn't answer anything.
And, 9 out of 10 provinces agreed with Trudeau and the electorate to this day approves.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: TimG on September 13, 2018, 03:30:45 pm
yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...
I am doing nothing you would not do if you were faced with a judiciary that consistently twisted the charter to support political opinions you disagree with. It did not use to be this way. The courts use to take their role as neutral arbitrators and attempted to balance the competing interests. Now all they do is decide what way they want to rule  based on their personal preferences and invent the legal rationalizations required to supported their pre-existing views.

Sort of like free speech. People with left wing views used to understand the importance of free speech as a means prevent oppression. Now that principle is tossed out now that many of the people with power today have left wing views and free speech interferes with their ability to oppress people they disagree with.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 13, 2018, 03:44:37 pm
I am doing nothing you would not do if you were faced with a judiciary that consistently twisted the charter to support political opinions you disagree with. It did not use to be this way. The courts use to take their role as neutral arbitrators and attempted to balance the competing interests. Now all they do is decide what way they want to rule  based on their personal preferences and invent the legal rationalizations required to supported their pre-existing views.

Sort of like free speech. People with left wing views used to understand the importance of free speech as a means prevent oppression. Now that principle is tossed out now that many of the people with power today have left wing views and free speech interferes with their ability to oppress people they disagree with.

So tell us where and how they "twisted" the charter. Try to rise above your biases in your explanation.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 03:56:53 pm
The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter.

Gawd, repatriation of the constitution goes way back to at least William Lyon Mackenzie King in the 20's, and your hero Diefenbaker even had a crack at it; in fact that is how he began his political career even before first being elected to office. It was Diefenbaker that established the Canadian Bill of Rights. This was not something cooked up by Trudeau.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 13, 2018, 05:43:10 pm
...rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).

Or trying to figure out why it's a problem at all when Toronto isn't even represented on a per-councillor level close to smaller cities.  But you have a point.  They could have done it in time for the next election...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 13, 2018, 05:46:52 pm
Ford is not Trump. He's nothing like Trump other than being somewhat of a populist.

He's worse.  He's a Trump admirer and wannabe.

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Perhaps, but the judgement was overreach too.

The judge didn't deny the province had the right to do it, but ruled on the timing.  How is that overreach ?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 06:28:29 pm
So tell us where and how they "twisted" the charter. Try to rise above your biases in your explanation.

Saying the Ontario government couldn't change the number of council seats because that would interfere with people's freedom of expression was certainly twisting it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 06:29:21 pm
Gawd, repatriation of the constitution goes way back to at least William Lyon Mackenzie King in the 20's, and your hero Diefenbaker even had a crack at it; in fact that is how he began his political career even before first being elected to office. It was Diefenbaker that established the Canadian Bill of Rights. This was not something cooked up by Trudeau.

He said that the people preferred judges have power over parliament. I pointed out that no one ever asked the people. The Constitution was not put to a referendum nor was it an issue in an election.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 06:31:44 pm
Saying the Ontario government couldn't change the number of council seats because that would interfere with people's freedom of expression was certainly twisting it.

You and Doug Ford don’t understand appeals?  Or, failing that, not making the change during an election?   ::)

You and Doug Ford want to bust out the sledge hammer rather than the proper tool for the job just so you can stick it to the damn lefties.    :o

Like I said earlier, it’s the governing of an oaf.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 06:43:38 pm
Here is what Coyne  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY09Mr_vRBI)thinks about this Ford stupidity.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 06:48:12 pm
He's worse.  He's a Trump admirer and wannabe.

The judge didn't deny the province had the right to do it, but ruled on the timing.  How is that overreach ?

Freedom of expression? Seriously? I agree the timing is stupid. But a judge does not have supervisory power over the legislature. He's simply supposed to see if the actions are unconstitutional - not if they're stupid or if they're fair or if they're mean or if the government justified them or if the government consulted with people - just if they're constitutional. Inventing a ridiculous pretext to rule they were NOT by saying that violated people's freedom of expression is far more of a violation of democracy than the use of the notwithstanding clause.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 06:51:46 pm
You and Doug Ford don’t understand appeals?  Or, failing that, not making the change during an election?   ::)

You and Doug Ford want to bust out the sledge hammer rather than the proper tool for the job just so you can stick it to the damn lefties.    :o

Like I said earlier, it’s the governing of an oaf.

This is not, to me, a left/right issue. It is an activist judiciary/democratically elected legislature issue. I don't know how long it takes to appeal a judicial decision but as people have already pointed out the election date is coming soon and likely there wouldn't have been time. And no, I don't know why Ford is so all fired eager to get it down for THIS election rather than waiting through to the next. Don't care either. It's the Toronto city council. I couldn't care less what he does to it - or for that matter, to my own city's. They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

But he's the premier. He has a majority. The municipalities are all creations of the province, and so they have the right to do with them what they want.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 06:53:31 pm
They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

Yup, dog whistle politics, catering to his braying sheep.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 06:55:05 pm
This is not, to me, a left/right issue. It is an activist judiciary/democratically elected legislature issue. I don't know how long it takes to appeal a judicial decision but as people have already pointed out the election date is coming soon and likely there wouldn't have been time. And no, I don't know why Ford is so all fired eager to get it down for THIS election rather than waiting through to the next. Don't care either. It's the Toronto city council. I couldn't care less what he does to it - or for that matter, to my own city's. They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

But he's the premier. He has a majority. The municipalities are all creations of the province, and so they have the right to do with them what they want.

So you’d have no problem with an NDP Provincial government changing the boundaries to ensure their friends were more likely to get elected in a municipality then?   Mid-election, mind you....  when they can see the polls aren’t favourable to their friends....
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 07:01:01 pm
A “fair election is virtually impossible” due to the actions of the Province.

https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/toronto-politicians-to-weigh-steps-as-province-revives-bill-to-reduce-council

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 07:07:49 pm
So you’d have no problem with an NDP Provincial government changing the boundaries to ensure their friends were more likely to get elected in a municipality then?   Mid-election, mind you....  when they can see the polls aren’t favourable to their friends....

There is simply no evidence that Ford is doing this to benefit his 'friends' nor even that it WILL.
And to reiterate, I don't think doing this now is necessary. I don't even know if doing it at all is necessary. I don't CARE about it.
I care about judges twisting the constitution to overrule governments which are legitimately carrying out legal acts.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 07:16:40 pm
Why is Doug Ford not reducing the number of city councilors in Ottawa from 23 to 9? That would still give them better representation than he is giving Toronto.

The same can be said across the rest of the province, but in other cases it would be from 4 to 0.01, etc.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2018, 07:24:55 pm
Why is Doug Ford not reducing the number of city councilors in Ottawa from 23 to 9? That would still give them better representation than he is giving Toronto.

The same can be said across the rest of the province, but in other cases it would be from 4 to 0.01, etc.

Okay. Let him. I really don't care. We don't have much in the way of democracy at the municipal level anyway because almost no one votes. That means city councilors only need to zealously pursue activists and community groups and what they want. That will give them enough votes to easily win over nameless newbies that might run against them.

This is a few years old but nothing has changed, really.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/incumbency-on-city-councils-is-killing-democracy/article21403223/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2018, 07:42:27 pm
There is simply no evidence that Ford is doing this to benefit his 'friends' nor even that it WILL.
And to reiterate, I don't think doing this now is necessary. I don't even know if doing it at all is necessary. I don't CARE about it.
I care about judges twisting the constitution to overrule governments which are legitimately carrying out legal acts.

So when you said “they can do with them what they want”, you didn’t actually mean that....
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: wilber on September 13, 2018, 09:08:38 pm
Quote
As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation).

It's been used once outside of Quebec and even then the courts decided it was unnecessary because the particular law wasn't illegal in the first place. So, once outside of Quebec in 36 years.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 13, 2018, 09:21:18 pm
It's been used once outside of Quebec...

Yes, only Saskatchewan & Quebec used it. The clause also applies to the federal government, which has never used it. Even Stephen Harper, the guy that lost more court cases than Donald Trump, never resorted to using it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2018, 10:22:55 am
So when you said “they can do with them what they want”, you didn’t actually mean that....

The provinces create municipalities. They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2018, 10:26:54 am
Yes, only Saskatchewan & Quebec used it. The clause also applies to the federal government, which has never used it. Even Stephen Harper, the guy that lost more court cases than Donald Trump, never resorted to using it.

Harper lacked the spine to use it. He lacked the willingness to push any conservative principles. This might give you a bit of an insight into why conservatives are unlikely to have a problem with what Ford has done.

In disagreeing with Justice Edward Belobaba’s decision on his move to cut the size of Toronto city council, Ford is playing to this heightened Conservative skepticism towards Canada’s justice institutions. In moving to invoke Charter Section 33 (the notwithstanding clause), Ford is also betting a figurative flipping of the bird to this country’s legal and government establishment also will resonate among the majority of Canadians, who say they feel as though they are on the outside looking in.

When the Angus Reid Institute last asked, fully two-thirds of Canadians said “the values and ideals I care about most are losing ground.” On the right-hand side of the political spectrum, the feeling only intensified, with nearly four-in-five (79 per cent) of past Conservative voters expressing this. Among those who were on the “very right” side of the political scale (as opposed to moderately right), this view was nearly unanimous (91 per cent).


https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/kurl-doug-ford-shows-conservative-parties-arent-what-they-used-to-be
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 14, 2018, 11:14:02 am
Ford is playing to this heightened Conservative skepticism towards Canada’s justice institutions

Yes, more dog whistle politics.

That is not being 'conservative', that is being extremist. Hopefully even the rest of the electorate will wake up to this hate based populism.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 14, 2018, 02:03:21 pm
The provinces create municipalities. They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose.

So now you're saying you'd be OK with an NDP gov't changing the municipal boundaries during an election...   say to suit their political allies?  Because "They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose".

Or are there limits to this power?
Do you think there should be limits?   If so, who should be the watchdog to make sure the Province doesn't over-reach?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2018, 03:05:23 pm
Yes, more dog whistle politics.
  • Councilors are the enemy of the people.

You made that up. Nobody else has ever suggested it.
And doing what you should do, even if it pleases people is not always 'dog whistle politics'.

Quote
That is not being 'conservative', that is being extremist.

Oh, admit it. To you guys, the words are synonyms.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2018, 03:18:34 pm
So now you're saying you'd be OK with an NDP gov't changing the municipal boundaries during an election...   say to suit their political allies?  Because "They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose".

Or are there limits to this power?
Do you think there should be limits?   If so, who should be the watchdog to make sure the Province doesn't over-reach?

And again, there is no evidence whatsoever, other than paranoia, that Ford is doing this to suit his political allies, or even that it will help his political allies.
And why give a shit about it anyway? Do you know how many incumbents lost in the last Toronto election? One. Nor is that the least unusual. If you check on the voting you find most incumbents winning with between 50% and 80% of the vote in every damned election. They don't get enough press for people to know what they're really up to, but enough to be a 'name' incumbency let's them know what community groups to stroke and lets them do it. The nobodies who mostly challenge them get no publicity or press and so even if someone wants to vote out their councillor they generally have no idea which of the half dozen or more challengers have a prayer. It was the same in Ottawa, with just 1 incumbent losing.



Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 14, 2018, 03:40:02 pm
And again, there is no evidence whatsoever, other than paranoia, that Ford is doing this to suit his political allies, or even that it will help his political allies.

I didn't say he was...  no one did.  It's called a hypothetical.  Would you accept that as a legitimate reason for any government to change the boundaries?   That's all I'm asking.   

Quote
And why give a shit about it anyway? Do you know how many incumbents lost in the last Toronto election? One. Nor is that the least unusual. If you check on the voting you find most incumbents winning with between 50% and 80% of the vote in every damned election. They don't get enough press for people to know what they're really up to, but enough to be a 'name' incumbency let's them know what community groups to stroke and lets them do it. The nobodies who mostly challenge them get no publicity or press and so even if someone wants to vote out their councillor they generally have no idea which of the half dozen or more challengers have a prayer. It was the same in Ottawa, with just 1 incumbent losing.

The rest of this post is "blah blah blah...  avoiding the questions in my post".
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2018, 04:02:32 pm
I didn't say he was...  no one did.  It's called a hypothetical.  Would you accept that as a legitimate reason for any government to change the boundaries?   That's all I'm asking.   

The rest of this post is "blah blah blah...  avoiding the questions in my post".

I was pointing out context. And you are again confusing approving of someone's actions with not wanting some appointee to twist the law to prevent them from doing it.

As I have already stated, I don't approve of his sudden changes to Toronto's city council. But he has the legal right to do it. And I approve of an appointed judge twisting the law and democracy o suit himself far less.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 14, 2018, 04:33:59 pm
To you guys, the words are synonyms.

Only for the vocal ones
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2018, 10:51:26 am
Ted Morton gives context to the reason for the notwithstanding clause. As well as its use.

Back in 1981, the governments of the western provinces were suspicious of both Trudeau and his handpicked chief justice of the Supreme Court, Bora Laskin. Alberta was still reeling from the impact of Trudeau’s National Energy Program and a Laskin-led Supreme Court had just ruled against provincial regulation of natural resource development in two cases from Saskatchewan. The four western premiers — representing three different political parties — viewed Laskin as sharing the same pro-Ottawa values as Trudeau.

They saw the Charter — accurately as it has turned out — to potentially be a disguised form of “disallowance,” the historic constitutional power that allowed the federal cabinet to overrule provincial laws. Only, under the Charter, it would be federally appointed judges exercising the policy veto over provincial laws rather than the federal cabinet. The premiers never would have given Trudeau the support he needed without the notwithstanding clause.

Although it was born of political necessity, the notwithstanding power is fully justified in theory. It represents a creative middle ground between parliamentary supremacy and judicial supremacy. It strikes a balance between Canada’s tradition of responsible government and the American model of judicial review of a constitutional bill of rights.


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ted-morton-provinces-demanded-notwithstanding-powers-for-good-reason-they-should-use-them
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 15, 2018, 11:02:38 am
Section 1 of the charter allows reasonable limits:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Section 33 is the unreasonable limits limits clause.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2018, 11:29:38 am
Section 1 of the charter allows reasonable limits:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Section 33 is the unreasonable limits limits clause.

Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2018, 11:50:24 am
Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.

 Do you actually think the notwithstanding clause was designed to let an idiot like DoFo settle a dispute with city hall?

Speaking of overreach!
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2018, 12:39:56 pm
Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.
It is the judges in this situation who are the ones limiting the overreach and political activism of a fascist blowhard.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2018, 12:51:54 pm
Here is the statement from Chretien, McMurty, and Romanow (Liberal, Conservative, and New Democrat respectively):

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2018, 07:27:54 pm
It is the judges in this situation who are the ones limiting the overreach and political activism of a fascist blowhard.

Ford is a fascist now because he wants to limit the number of city councilors in Toronto?  ::)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2018, 07:30:18 pm
Here is the statement from Chretien, McMurty, and Romanow (Liberal, Conservative, and New Democrat respectively):

None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2018, 07:32:02 pm
Do you actually think the notwithstanding clause was designed to let an idiot like DoFo settle a dispute with city hall?

Speaking of overreach!

It was designed to allow government to push back against judicial overreach. There's nothing in the law that says anything whatsoever about "A last resort, emergency situation only". It certainly wasn't used that way in Saskatchewan.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2018, 05:44:09 am
It was designed to allow government to push back against judicial overreach. There's nothing in the law that says anything whatsoever about "A last resort, emergency situation only". It certainly wasn't used that way in Saskatchewan.

It wasn't designed for judicial overreach, it was designed to appease some provinces that were worried the Charter would limit their power because they all couldn't perfectly agree on the Charter contents.  Quebec didn't sign the Charter so they used the clause at will.

The judiciary is the primary check on the government leader's power (PM, Premiers).  The GG or LG is essentially a rubber stamp, so is the senate/upper chamber.  Stop and think for 2 seconds what it means for a Premier or PM to have the power to override the Constitution and our rights.  It should be used only in exceptional circumstances and as a last resort.  That's how its been used by convention by the governments usually, besides Quebec.  Personally I think the clause is garbage and shouldn't be in the Charter, it's extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.

I don't care what you think the agenda of judges are.  The judiciary has a vital role and if you think they have a bias well of course they do, so do all judges in any country.  Ford using the clause in this case during a damned election is completely stupid.  You can't just ignore the courts at will because you disagree with them.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 10:15:21 am
The judiciary is the primary check on the government leader's power (PM, Premiers).  The GG or LG is essentially a rubber stamp, so is the senate/upper chamber.

The primary check on a government's power is the electorate. Because that government wants to be re-elected.

Quote
Stop and think for 2 seconds what it means for a Premier or PM to have the power to override the Constitution and our rights.

You mean like they had for most of the history of this country? Why, we could be living in the hellhole of 1979 or something!

Quote
I don't care what you think the agenda of judges are.  The judiciary has a vital role and if you think they have a bias well of course they do, so do all judges in any country.

Okay, so you don't care about judges making up law as they go along because you fear politicians. That sounds pretty weird to me. You can get rid of politicians easily enough. You can't get rid of judges at all. Politicians have to have some concern for what the citizenry wants. Judges don't give a shit what the people want or think or say.

This sounds like you fear Canadians and want a nanny watching them. I don't fear Canadians. I fear the nanny.

Quote
You can't just ignore the courts at will because you disagree with them.

If a judge can ignore the law at will because he disagrees with it then why can't the politicians ignore the judge?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 10:26:06 am
None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?

Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.  What was initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.  Quebec can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Thanks Doug.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2018, 11:34:41 am
None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?
All of them involved with drafting and negotiating the ratification of the constitution. I expect them to understand it far better than you, and lightyears beyond Ford. It's also funny how you disown one of the highest ranking Ontario Conservatives, which clearly shows how far to the right you've shifted.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2018, 11:36:20 am
Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.  What was initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.  Quebec can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Thanks Doug.
Except McMurty is a conservative. Argus is just that far to the right that Bill Davis's Attorney General isn't conservative enough for him.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 01:25:41 pm
Neither is Ford.  He's a populist.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 16, 2018, 01:55:55 pm
Neither is Ford.  He's a populist.

 ::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2018, 01:56:44 pm
The primary check on a government's power is the electorate. Because that government wants to be re-elected.

So politicians can do whatever they want in between the 5 years they're up for re-election?  Between those 5 years, the judiciary is supposed to keep the gov in check so that the laws they pass is lawful.  He's not a king for 5 years.

Quote
Okay, so you don't care about judges making up law as they go along because you fear politicians. That sounds pretty weird to me. You can get rid of politicians easily enough. You can't get rid of judges at all. Politicians have to have some concern for what the citizenry wants.

That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.  Ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.  If Ford waited until after the Toronto election the odds of his council shrink law passing would be much higher.

Quote
Judges don't give a shit what the people want or think or say.

That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

Quote
This sounds like you fear Canadians and want a nanny watching them. I don't fear Canadians. I fear the nanny.

I fear politicians whose power is too concentrated, and who use extraordinary powers to bypass the judiciary when they disagree with them.  Let's be thankful Trump has more checks on his power than Ford or Trudeau.

Quote
If a judge can ignore the law at will because he disagrees with it then why can't the politicians ignore the judge?

If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2018, 02:05:41 pm
::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.

Seems quite obvious to me. He's simply a conservative trying to spew populist rhetoric.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 03:17:15 pm
::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.

Republican Party president = Republican party elected president = president is a Republican

But he's not a conservative either, as pointed out by conservatives themselves.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 03:19:16 pm
  He's not a king for 5 years.

Agreed.

Quote
That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.  Ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.  If Ford waited until after the Toronto election the odds of his council shrink law passing would be much higher.

That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

They react more slowly, hence they are *more* conservative. 

Quote
I fear politicians whose power is too concentrated, and who use extraordinary powers to bypass the judiciary when they disagree with them.  Let's be thankful Trump has more checks on his power than Ford or Trudeau.

He doesn't now, though.  He has more power than Trudeau as he has proven that he can/will reject anything the feds give him.

Quote
If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.

And then overrule if he loses.

Seriously, if he vetoes a change to Toronto City Council what would he NOT veto ?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 03:41:15 pm
Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.

You call Saskatchewan's use of it a big scale issue?

Quote
as initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.

What? That's silly. The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

Quote
can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Quebec largely HAS made English illegal and the response from the Left was applause for them protecting their delightful ethnic cultural values and language.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 03:42:46 pm
Except McMurty is a conservative. Argus is just that far to the right that Bill Davis's Attorney General isn't conservative enough for him.

McMurty was a red tory, like Davis. Neither was conservative. It was the lack of conservative policies, beliefs or ideology which wrecked the federal PC policy.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 03:45:32 pm
You call Saskatchewan's use of it a big scale issue?

My understanding is that was only temporary for that ruling.  I hadn't even heard of it until recently.  The big one was the Quebec use of it in the 1990s.

Quote
What? That's silly. The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

My understanding is that power hasn't been tested.  I suspect that's partly why Trudeau didn't use it.

Quote
Quebec largely HAS made English illegal and the response from the Left was applause for them protecting their delightful ethnic cultural values and language.

No.  That's your perception only. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 03:48:25 pm
So politicians can do whatever they want in between the 5 years they're up for re-election?

As long as what they do gets forgiven by the electorate, yeah. Pretty much. That's how parliamentary democracy works.

Quote
Between those 5 years, the judiciary is supposed to keep the gov in check so that the laws they pass is lawful.

No. The judiciary is supposed to analyse laws and determine if they meet a constitutional test, when challenged. I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is judges saying "Well, I don't like this law, so let's see, how can I justify overturning it somehow... Hmm. I'll say it's against people's freedom of expression!"

Quote
That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.

And that would work if we had a neutral, unbiased judiciary. We do not have such a thing.


Quote
ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.

The election is still a couple of months away.

Quote
That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

And if I trusted them to interpret it honestly, instead of according to their own whims, that would be fine. I don't.

Quote
If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.

I'm sure he will. Of course, the election will be over by then, which was probably the judge's intention.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 03:56:31 pm
My understanding is that was only temporary for that ruling.

It was temporary in that the judge's ruling that they ignored was found to be invalid, as I suspect this one will be.

Quote
My understanding is that power hasn't been tested.  I suspect that's partly why Trudeau didn't use it.

It's been used dozens of times in the past, just not over the past generation.

Quote
No.  That's your perception only.

The NDP have made it awfully damn clear how deeply they respect Quebec's individuality and wish to protect their culture and language and that if they want to leave, even if the vote is 50.001% the NDP will support them. When Bill 101 was expanded years ago the NDP supported that.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 03:57:15 pm
McMurty was a red tory, like Davis. Neither was conservative. It was the lack of conservative policies, beliefs or ideology which wrecked the federal PC policy.
:D
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 03:58:18 pm
:D

Did I say something which was incorrect? Do you think the federal PCs split up and died because they were too conservative?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 03:59:18 pm
The NDP have made it awfully damn clear how deeply they respect Quebec's individuality and wish to protect their culture and language and that if they want to leave, even if the vote is 50.001% the NDP will support them. When Bill 101 was expanded years ago the NDP supported that.

Noted that 'the left' means the NDP now.  So if Marxist professors don't like the xenophobic policies of Quebec, we can still say leftists do like them.

And if Charlottesville fascists kill people, they're not conservatives... Trump isn't one... Bill Davis isn't one...

Damn it we should just all ask you to define everything, it's much easier.  :D
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 04:10:27 pm
Noted that 'the left' means the NDP now.  So if Marxist professors don't like the xenophobic policies of Quebec, we can still say leftists do like them.

And if Charlottesville fascists kill people, they're not conservatives... Trump isn't one... Bill Davis isn't one...

Damn it we should just all ask you to define everything, it's much easier.  :D


Maybe you should look into what conservatism is if you're confused about why I describe people who hold NONE of its beliefs as theirs as not being conservative.

If I call myself a Socialist will you accept me as one even if I ignore all socialist beliefs and values and espouse conservative ones instead?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 16, 2018, 04:46:51 pm
The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

Where do you get that from? There is not a hierarchy of governments, in fact Confederation is an agreement by the provinces to cooperate; if anything the federal government is beholding to them.The practical side is we have a division of powers and responsibilities, some items are federal and others are provincial. The City of Toronto act and the Municipal act are 100% provincial.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2018, 04:47:53 pm
As long as what they do gets forgiven by the electorate, yeah. Pretty much. That's how parliamentary democracy works.

No it's not.  Some of Harper dumbest laws were rejected by the courts, thankfully.  Imagine how you'd feel if Wynne or Trudeau used the clause to ram through every wackjob idea she had.

Quote
No. The judiciary is supposed to analyse laws and determine if they meet a constitutional test, when challenged. I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is judges saying "Well, I don't like this law, so let's see, how can I justify overturning it somehow... Hmm. I'll say it's against people's freedom of expression!"

Yes there's judges out there that suck, that are horribly ideological, that make bad rulings.  That's why there's an appeal process.  That's why Ford can take this all the way to the SCC, and that's why the SCC isn't made up of just 1 or 3 or 5 judges.

Quote
The election is still a couple of months away.

The election is Oct. 22
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 16, 2018, 05:00:19 pm
Quote
The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

Cite.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 16, 2018, 05:20:59 pm
Cite.

There was some mention of this power, and Trudeau enacting it but it was also described as a 'Dead Letter' power.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 16, 2018, 06:07:14 pm
There was some mention of this power, and Trudeau enacting it but it was also described as a 'Dead Letter' power.

That’s not a cite.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2018, 06:35:17 pm
Republican Party president = Republican party elected president = president is a Republican

But he's not a conservative either, as pointed out by conservatives themselves.
Semantic nonsense. He's the president holding the banner of the conservative party. He's a conservative. Anyone saying otherwise is merely trying to distance themselves from the disaster they've created.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2018, 06:37:14 pm
There was some mention of this power, and Trudeau enacting it but it was also described as a 'Dead Letter' power.
There is a very clear division of powers and you can read about them any time you want. Any suggestion otherwise is complete nonsense.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 06:53:37 pm
Where do you get that from? There is not a hierarchy of governments, in fact Confederation is an agreement by the provinces to cooperate; if anything the federal government is beholding to them.The practical side is we have a division of powers and responsibilities, some items are federal and others are provincial. The City of Toronto act and the Municipal act are 100% provincial.

But Ottawa has another weapon at its disposal — one just as blunt, and politically explosive, as the notwithstanding clause.

Under the Constitution, the federal cabinet can disallow any act of a provincial legislature. Ottawa could, in other words, simply disallow Ford's council-chopping legislation — notwithstanding his use of the notwithstanding clause.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ford-trudeau-toronto-notwithstanding-1.4819172
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 06:56:42 pm
No it's not.  Some of Harper dumbest laws were rejected by the courts, thankfully.

Care to name them and what you didn't like about them? Was it the three year minimum for those who use an illegal firearm in the commission of an act of violence? The mandatory one year in prison for illegal possession of a firearm? What are you thankful for, Coonlight?

Quote
Imagine how you'd feel if Wynne or Trudeau used the clause to ram through every wackjob idea she had.

If it was about the number of city councilors I probably wouldn't give a shit.

Quote
Yes there's judges out there that suck, that are horribly ideological, that make bad rulings.  That's why there's an appeal process.

As far as I'm concerned the SC have shown themselves to be horribly ideological.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 07:02:50 pm
Semantic nonsense. He's the president holding the banner of the conservative party. He's a conservative. Anyone saying otherwise is merely trying to distance themselves from the disaster they've created.

He's a populist demagogue whose life has been largely an open book for seventy years. Never in that life has he ever espoused conservative views. Quite the contrary for the most part. He's been a lifelong hedonist and adulterer who reveled in broadcasting his sexual deeds/misdeeds and openly supported all the usual liberal social policies. His government's only accomplishment has been a big tax cut which will hugely increase the deficit. Mitch McConnell once said Trump would sign anything congress puts in front of him, and there's no evidence Trump has even contributed to anything his government has done so far other than his ranting about the need for trade tariffs - which conservatives have always opposed.

I don't think Trump even knows a thing about any political ideology. He just likes people cheering him, and that's all he's in this for. Well, along with the feeling of being a big man who can bully people.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2018, 07:20:05 pm
But Ottawa has another weapon at its disposal — one just as blunt, and politically explosive, as the notwithstanding clause.

Under the Constitution, the federal cabinet can disallow any act of a provincial legislature. Ottawa could, in other words, simply disallow Ford's council-chopping legislation — notwithstanding his use of the notwithstanding clause.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ford-trudeau-toronto-notwithstanding-1.4819172

Did you notice your post seems to be rather critical of your buddy Doug? In any case, if that has to be done, what a waste of government time/money to have to strike down an act which is total overreach to simply restore citizens right to have their say through the ballot box. Doesn't seem unlike something Trump might think to try. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 16, 2018, 08:11:22 pm
So does anyone know what clause the CBC article is referencing?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2018, 08:28:22 pm
So does anyone know what clause the CBC article is referencing?

It would not be in the new constitution, but the old one.

In Canadian constitutional law, the powers of reservation and disallowance of both federal and provincial legislation still formally remain in place and are described in Sections 55 and 56 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which until 1982 was known as the British North America Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disallowance_and_reservation#In_Canada
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 17, 2018, 06:44:52 am
It would not be in the new constitution, but the old one.

In Canadian constitutional law, the powers of reservation and disallowance of both federal and provincial legislation still formally remain in place and are described in Sections 55 and 56 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which until 1982 was known as the British North America Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disallowance_and_reservation#In_Canada

Yes, thank you for finding that.  That's why it hasn't been tested.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 17, 2018, 10:05:28 am
He's a populist demagogue whose life has been largely an open book for seventy years. Never in that life has he ever espoused conservative views. Quite the contrary for the most part. He's been a lifelong hedonist and adulterer who reveled in broadcasting his sexual deeds/misdeeds and openly supported all the usual liberal social policies. His government's only accomplishment has been a big tax cut which will hugely increase the deficit. Mitch McConnell once said Trump would sign anything congress puts in front of him, and there's no evidence Trump has even contributed to anything his government has done so far other than his ranting about the need for trade tariffs - which conservatives have always opposed.

I don't think Trump even knows a thing about any political ideology. He just likes people cheering him, and that's all he's in this for. Well, along with the feeling of being a big man who can bully people.
He was elected in the primaries by conservatives as their choice for presidential candidate. If he's not a conservative, by whatever twisted (and wrong) reasoning you use, he sure as hell has their undying support.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 17, 2018, 11:41:16 am
Yes, thank you for finding that.  That's why it hasn't been tested.

Or it hasn't been tested because of political cowardice, or because the tilt to judicial activism builds upon itself and becomes more bold over time, finally provoking a government to push back.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-those-who-rewrote-the-constitution-would-be-glad-were-finally-using/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 17, 2018, 06:20:59 pm
Or it hasn't been tested because of political cowardice...

Maybe because Trudeau's supporters aren't angry idiots, but traditionalists (or conservatives in other words) who wouldn't be pleased with the overreach.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 17, 2018, 06:57:48 pm
Maybe because Trudeau's supporters aren't angry idiots, but traditionalists (or conservatives in other words) who wouldn't be pleased with the overreach.

There are no conservative supporters of Trudeau. And Trudeau hasn't shown he gives a shit what conservatives think, anyway. The only people he's worried about are all those Liberal premiers who would feel threatened by such overreach, especially the one in Quebec.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 18, 2018, 01:35:35 pm
Quote
While Ford contends that the courts should not rule on political decisions, he has committed $30 million of our tax money to ask a court to overturn the federal government’s carbon tax program.

As a wise, old college professor once told me, “you can’t suck and blow at the same time.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/4460547/bill-kelly-doug-fords-double-standard/

Ford wants the courts to overrule an elected Parliament....   but says courts should never overrule an elected government. 

How do conservatives square that circle?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 18, 2018, 04:29:53 pm
Ford wants the courts to overrule an elected Parliament....   but says courts should never overrule an elected government. 

How do conservatives square that circle?

Well, since he didn't said courts should never overrule an elected government it isn't really a problem.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 18, 2018, 04:37:26 pm
Well, since he didn't said courts should never overrule an elected government it isn't really a problem.

So I see conservatives square that circle by simply denying that it ever happened!   :P


Quote
“What’s extraordinary is … a democratically elected government trying to be shut down by the courts,” Ford told reporters.

“That concerns me more than anything. That should be concerning to every single person in Ontario.”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ford-says-he-ll-use-notwithstanding-clause-in-attempt-to-force-cuts-to-toronto-council-1.4086779


Ford is concerned about courts overruling elected governments....   Ford using courts to try and overrule elected federal government.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 18, 2018, 04:43:39 pm
Ford wants the courts to overrule an elected Parliament....   but says courts should never overrule an elected government. 

How do conservatives square that circle?

Maybe DoFo should follow in his dearly departed brothers footsteps and go out and fill in a few potholes instead of making a fool of himself by issuing such  contradictory statement of intent. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 18, 2018, 06:04:17 pm
So I see conservatives square that circle by simply denying that it ever happened!   :P

Ford is concerned about courts overruling elected governments....   Ford using courts to try and overrule elected federal government.

The courts have a legitimate place in refereeing between the powers allotted to the different levels of government. And a legitimate place in identifying legislation which is unconstitutional. I don't believe anyone has ever denied either of those things.

The problem with the court in this particular case was its ruling didn't stick to constitutional norms - ie, the province has a perfect right to do whatever the hell it wants with the municipalities, but instead invented the idea that somehow or other people's rights to free expression were being denied in doing so near an election. It was a preposterous ruling that had no constitutional basis other than "cuz I say so". I'd have no problem with government of any shade overruling that. The notwithstanding clause was made for rulings like that.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 18, 2018, 07:30:07 pm
The courts have a legitimate place in refereeing between the powers allotted to the different levels of government. And a legitimate place in identifying legislation which is unconstitutional. I don't believe anyone has ever denied either of those things.

I never said anyone here said that....  I quoted Doug Ford as saying that.    And was wondering how people who believe like you do would be able to support such a hypocritical position, given that  he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.


Quote
The problem with the court in this particular case was its ruling didn't stick to constitutional norms - ie, the province has a perfect right to do whatever the hell it wants with the municipalities, but instead invented the idea that somehow or other people's rights to free expression were being denied in doing so near an election.

The problem with Doug Ford’s court case against the federal government is that it doesn’t stick to constitutional norms.   Of course the feds can create taxes.   They always have.

Legal advice requested by the government of Manitoba noted there was a “strong likelihood” the Supreme Court would uphold Ottawa’s carbon pricing system on the basis of the federal government’s taxation power.

Allan Hutchinson, a constitutional law expert and professor at York University’s Osgoode Hall law school, said the Supreme Court has ruled that both the federal and provincial governments have jurisdiction over the environment but “the feds sort of hold the trump card.” (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-launching-constitutional-challenge-of-federal-carbon-tax-plan-2/)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 18, 2018, 07:32:01 pm
I suppose if the federal government did lose the Ford court case, they could just use the Nothwithstanding Clause.   No one would have an issue with that, right?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 18, 2018, 08:17:34 pm
I suppose if the federal government did lose the Ford court case, they could just use the Nothwithstanding Clause.   No one would have an issue with that, right?

That's correct. If DoFo gets a parking ticket, bring on the "notwithstanding clause", shove that ticket where the monkey put the peanut.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 19, 2018, 06:13:38 am
Quote
That’s according to a new Ipsos poll, conducted exclusively for Global News, in which 65 per cent of Torontonians, 59 per cent of Ontarians and 59 per cent of Canadians said they’re more upset with the process adopted by Ford, rather than his stated goal of reducing the size of council.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4463552/doug-ford-notwithstanding-clause-toronto-poll/

Wow.  I wasn't expecting that.  Not exactly shocking but certainly surprising.  In fact, I am suspicious.  Since when has Joe Ontarian even know what the 'notwithstanding' clause is anyway ?

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: poochy on September 19, 2018, 08:15:12 am
The courts have a legitimate place in refereeing between the powers allotted to the different levels of government. And a legitimate place in identifying legislation which is unconstitutional. I don't believe anyone has ever denied either of those things.

The problem with the court in this particular case was its ruling didn't stick to constitutional norms - ie, the province has a perfect right to do whatever the hell it wants with the municipalities, but instead invented the idea that somehow or other people's rights to free expression were being denied in doing so near an election. It was a preposterous ruling that had no constitutional basis other than "cuz I say so". I'd have no problem with government of any shade overruling that. The notwithstanding clause was made for rulings like that.

It is considered to be a bad ruling by most experts, at the same time this whole thing is just a spiteful attempt to stick it to Toronto city council, it could have waited.  It's a silly reason to use the NWC, even if you disagree with the ruling, ford was kind of asking for it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 10:50:52 am
I never said anyone here said that....  I quoted Doug Ford as saying that.    And was wondering how people who believe like you do would be able to support such a hypocritical position, given that  he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

No, that's the job of people on the Left. My support for Ford's use of the notwithstanding clause was the clear idiocy of the idiot judge who ruled against it. Or as the court of appeal has just stated:

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

Quote
The problem with Doug Ford’s court case against the federal government is that it doesn’t stick to constitutional norms.   Of course the feds can create taxes.   They always have.

I suppose they can. But I've never stated I support or oppose Ontario's appeal of the carbon tax. I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know if they have some technical case or not. And in any case, my issue is not with how the provinces fight with the feds, since that has always been filled with idiocy. My issue is with judicial overreach.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 10:51:42 am
I suppose if the federal government did lose the Ford court case, they could just use the Nothwithstanding Clause.   No one would have an issue with that, right?

That would depend on the clarity of the court's response in following constitutional norms. The question does not appear to be as clear-cut as our cites would indicate.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-had-better-find-out-if-his-carbon-tax-backstop-is-actually-legal
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 10:53:05 am
It is considered to be a bad ruling by most experts, at the same time this whole thing is just a spiteful attempt to stick it to Toronto city council, it could have waited.  It's a silly reason to use the NWC, even if you disagree with the ruling, ford was kind of asking for it.

I generally agree with this. The problem I have is that it's not up to a judge to give him what he's asking for. That's the voters' job.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 11:12:06 am
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 19, 2018, 11:47:21 am
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

So you don't care if the bill (5) is unfair as long as it goes forward in support of the REAL "overreach" by your buddy DoFo. We'll see how "stupid" the ruling was when it hits the SCC. And I'd be careful of trying your usual approach of presuming to speak for "most Canadians" because polls already show they don't agree with Ford.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: wilber on September 19, 2018, 12:06:14 pm
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

So now judges are the good guys? How things change.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 19, 2018, 03:01:39 pm
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay ...

Wow...  the system works.  Do you agree?

Now the legislation is just an awful, rushed legislation that serves DoFo's personal vendetta against the Toronto Council...   I suppose those darn lefties will just keep whining!   ::)

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on September 19, 2018, 03:26:31 pm
That would depend on the clarity of the court's response in following constitutional norms. The question does not appear to be as clear-cut as our cites would indicate.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-had-better-find-out-if-his-carbon-tax-backstop-is-actually-legal

The energy company insider who wrote the op-ed has what expertise in fed-prov division of powers?  His opinion is far less convincing than legal opinions of Constitutional experts. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 03:30:09 pm
So you don't care if the bill (5) is unfair as long as it goes forward in support of the REAL "overreach" by your buddy DoFo.

Not really, no. It's a minor thing which impacts almost nobody in Ontario and costs the Ontario taxpayer nothing. Do I think it was done in a thoughtful way? No. Did you really expect Doug Ford to do things quietly, carefully, and by following all procedures?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 03:33:31 pm
So now judges are the good guys? How things change.

How has anything I've said changed? How does my statement here differ from the one yesterday where I pointed out that I certainly believe judges have a role to play in refereeing powers between levels of government and the constitutionality of legislation?

My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford. My problem was the ludicrous overreach of that judgement. Something which concerned you NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST., for some reason. You seem to be of the mentality that if a guy in a black robe tells you to cut your throat you'll shrug and go get a knife. Some of us are a little more independent of mind. We like to see the judgement and consider whether it meets the test of logic and applicability.

Everything I said about the judgement was born out by what the appeals court judges said. Maybe you should examine your own position and ask why you're such a mindless, unthinking, obedient drone to whatever a judge says.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: wilber on September 19, 2018, 03:53:58 pm
How has anything I've said changed? How does my statement here differ from the one yesterday where I pointed out that I certainly believe judges have a role to play in refereeing powers between levels of government and the constitutionality of legislation?

My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford. My problem was the ludicrous overreach of that judgement. Something which concerned you NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST., for some reason. You seem to be of the mentality that if a guy in a black robe tells you to cut your throat you'll shrug and go get a knife. Some of us are a little more independent of mind. We like to see the judgement and consider whether it meets the test of logic and applicability.

Everything I said about the judgement was born out by what the appeals court judges said. Maybe you should examine your own position and ask why you're such a mindless, unthinking, obedient drone to whatever a judge says.

The point is, the system worked for DoFo. His jumping to use the notwithstanding clause was completely unnecessary. The judiciary does curb the excesses of some of its members. Thanks to the superior court, he will not go down as the first Ontario Premier to use the notwithstanding clause, particularly for such a stupid reason. At least not yet. He should take the lesson to heart and be grateful.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 19, 2018, 05:14:41 pm
My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford.

That is why we have an appeal process, and it works. It is dictators like Doug Ford who can't work within the system, they resort to brutal tactics.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 19, 2018, 05:24:12 pm
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

Well, honestly I feel better about this.  Although it looks bad for Ford that he said he would do this, I'm not sure of the effect on the constitution.

Anyway, what's done is done... moving on.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 19, 2018, 05:25:10 pm
So now judges are the good guys? How things change.

Not for me.  They were always arbiters and please note my acceptance of the ruling, everyone.  Excuse me while I shine light out of my butt...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 06:06:54 pm
That is why we have an appeal process, and it works. It is dictators like Doug Ford who can't work within the system, they resort to brutal tactics.

It worked in that he was able to get a stay of the order. Otherwise, our courts being so horrifically slow, it would be months before they could actually rule, which, even if they overturned it would have basically made the initial incorrect ruling stand.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 19, 2018, 06:09:44 pm
Not for me.  They were always arbiters and please note my acceptance of the ruling, everyone.  Excuse me while I shine light out of my butt...

I would have accepted the first ruling if it had made any damn sense. I have no problem supporting a court which upholds the law. Now in some cases it's too complicated for me to actually form a reasonable opinion. I'm not going to argue with a judge on complicated aspects of a law. But on something where it's stretching something like 'free expression' out of all proportion to the reality of the damn language then yeah, I'm gonna say the judge is full of crap.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: TimG on September 19, 2018, 06:20:45 pm
The point is, the system worked for DoFo. His jumping to use the notwithstanding clause was completely unnecessary. The judiciary does curb the excesses of some of its members. Thanks to the superior court, he will not go down as the first Ontario Premier to use the notwithstanding clause, particularly for such a stupid reason. At least not yet. He should take the lesson to heart and be grateful.
I am very happy with how this played out. Perhaps this debacle will lead to judges being more careful about twisting the charter way beyond its original intent because using the notwithstanding clause is no longer 'unthinkable'.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 19, 2018, 06:30:56 pm
Here's what the judges on the new ruling said:

Quote
"Unquestionably, Ontario's announcement of its intention to introduce Bill 5 disrupted the campaigns that were already underway. However, Bill 5 does not limit or restrict any message the candidates wish to convey to voters," the ruling said.

"While the change brought about by Bill 5 is undoubtedly frustrating for candidates who started campaigning in May 2018, we are not persuaded that their frustration amounts to a substantial interference with their freedom of expression," it continued.

"Candidates had a reasonable expectation that they would be operating under a 47-ward platform … However, neither that platform nor that expectation was constitutionally guaranteed. Unfairness alone does not establish a charter breach."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ford-court-toronto-council-1.4829250

I was originally against Doug on this, but now I realize the original ruling was arguing what Ford was doing was against the charter because it violated the council candidate's and the voters' "freedom of expression" as stated above.  This makes little sense, so now I agree with the new ruling. 

The original judge said it violated voters' freedom of expression because their representation with the city would be cut in half.  But that makes no sense, because that argument means that at no time ever can anyone cut the # of seats on any city council, which government obviously has a right to do.  Why would 25 seats be violation but 42 seats wouldn't?   What difference would it make if Doug cut the seats now during an election or a year from now?  And how would it violate voter rights of "expression"?  contituents can still voice their concerns to their 25 city res.  Ontario and the fed gov has 25 ridings in Toronto so what's the difference?  Ok it might be harder because they're dealing with more people, but to say it violates their "freedom of expression" is a huge stretch.  It makes no sense.  Doug isn't trying to muzzle Toronto voters.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 19, 2018, 07:31:25 pm

The original judge said it violated voters' freedom of expression because their representation with the city would be cut in half.  But that makes no sense, because that argument means that at no time ever can anyone cut the # of seats on any city council, which government obviously has a right to do.  Why would 25 seats be violation but 42 seats wouldn't?   

You'd have to read the ruling.  There's obviously a qualitative factor here, as well as the rights of those who registered to run.  But let's move on...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 23, 2018, 12:14:35 pm
And goodbye Green energy act.

It is a challenge to give a comprehensive account of its many follies. A saga that started in 2009 under then Liberal premier Dalton McGuinty, received a full and smothering embrace by his successor, Kathleen Wynne, that subsidized at dizzying multiples the electricity provided by the most inefficient sources, put the small towns and outlying cities of the province under a green iron fist, stimulated both the construction of gas plants and their subsequent abrupt election-inspired cancellation, produced power it had to give away or pay other jurisdictions to take, castrated small businesses, burdened the most impoverished of the province with a choice between power and bread, and then precipitated the greatest slaughter of the Liberal Party of Ontario in modern-day history, cannot be encompassed in a column.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-the-green-energy-act-is-dead-let-that-be-a-warning-to-green-politicians
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 24, 2018, 08:28:43 pm
PC Finance Minister says the decifit inherited by Kathleen Wynne is actually 15 billion dollars, instead of 6.7 billion claimed by Wynne:

Ontario’s new Progressive Conservative government is warning that sacrifices will have to be made after Finance Minister Vic Fedeli announced that a review of the province’s finances has found that the deficit has more than doubled to $15-billion this year.

In his first major address as the custodian of Ontario’s finances, Mr. Fedeli told a business crowd in downtown Toronto on Friday that because of significant accounting changes and an overly optimistic budget forecast from the outgoing Liberal government, the deficit has more than doubled from the anticipated $6.7-billion shortfall.

“The truth may not be much fun, but at least you know it’s the truth,” he said in a speech to the Economic Club of Canada. “The task ahead is not an easy one. The hole is deep and it will require everyone to make sacrifices without exception.”

The revised figure came from a commission of inquiry struck only weeks after the government took office and headed by former British Columbia premier Gordon Campbell.

Most of the increased deficit comes from a change long demanded by Ontario’s Auditor-General about how the province accounts for public pension plans and a program to reduce hydro rates. Mr. Fedeli said the Liberals feuded with Auditor-General Bonnie Lysyk and, as a way of artificially lowering the deficit, wouldn’t properly account for the pension and hydro expenses. Accounting for both on the government’s balance sheet added more than $5-billion to the annual shortfall and will continue to do so.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-deficit-at-15-billion-this-year-pcs-say-not-67-billion/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 24, 2018, 08:58:55 pm
PC Finance Minister says the decifit inherited by Kathleen Wynne is...
Who to believe?

The liberals: $6.7 billion
The auditor general: $11.4 billion
The progressive conservatives: $15 billion
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 24, 2018, 09:12:09 pm
Who to believe?

The liberals: $6.7 billion
The auditor general: $11.4 billion
The progressive conservatives: $15 billion

Split the difference, go with AG.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on September 25, 2018, 08:47:14 am
Who to believe?

The liberals: $6.7 billion
The auditor general: $11.4 billion
The progressive conservatives: $15 billion
If only there were some sort of generally accepted accounting principles to standardize these calculations…..
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2018, 12:03:37 pm
Who to believe?

The liberals: $6.7 billion
The auditor general: $11.4 billion
The progressive conservatives: $15 billion

The AG was basing hers mainly on two issues. The Tories did a wider assessment, and more recent one. I would believe them conditionally on the AG not disagreeing with them.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 25, 2018, 12:50:11 pm
The AG was basing hers mainly on two issues. The Tories did a wider assessment, and more recent one. I would believe them conditionally on the AG not disagreeing with them.

The Tories are just setting the bar for their record high deficits to come.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2018, 12:57:39 pm
Oh but think just how much revenue they will collect from the "buck a beer" brilliance.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2018, 03:51:20 pm
The Tories are just setting the bar for their record high deficits to come.

I think you're confusing them with the McGuinty Liberals.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 25, 2018, 04:05:02 pm
The AG was basing hers mainly on two issues. The Tories did a wider assessment, and more recent one. I would believe them conditionally on the AG not disagreeing with them.

I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of this government's mouth.  They literally have created a fake news "channel" called "Ontario News Now" to control 100% of their message.  Propaganda:  https://twitter.com/OntarioNewsNow?lang=en
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2018, 04:24:50 pm
I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of this government's mouth.  They literally have created a fake news "channel" called "Ontario News Now" to control 100% of their message.  Propaganda:  https://twitter.com/OntarioNewsNow?lang=en

So? You think they'd have had a chance of getting any kind of press coverage like Trudeau gets?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2018, 04:30:38 pm
I think most people saw all the news coverage of the Ford Bros. they needed when Rob was running around stoned/drunk.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on September 25, 2018, 04:45:52 pm
I am the greatest President Premier that ever was, and ever will be. My administration is the most accomplished in all of history.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 25, 2018, 05:24:52 pm
So? You think they'd have had a chance of getting any kind of press coverage like Trudeau gets?

The large majority of newspapers in Canada lean conservative.  National Post, Sun papers, Ottawa Citizens and all Postmedia papers.  Talk radio tends to lean conservative.  You have to fight the Toronto Star and CBC, ok.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 25, 2018, 05:28:23 pm
The large majority of newspapers in Canada lean conservative.  National Post, Sun papers, Ottawa Citizens and all Postmedia papers.  Talk radio tends to lean conservative.  You have to fight the Toronto Star and CBC, ok.

Plus Ontario Proud and Rebel Media lying all over the web... there's no liberal equivalent to that propaganda machine, nor do conservatives do anything to stop the lies...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2018, 07:39:58 pm
The large majority of newspapers in Canada lean conservative.  National Post, Sun papers, Ottawa Citizens and all Postmedia papers.  Talk radio tends to lean conservative.  You have to fight the Toronto Star and CBC, ok.

The postmedia papers carry the same basic columnists.The Sun, Citizen and Post, for example, will all cover the same stories exactly the same way and usually with the same columnist. There are a few somewhat conservative columnists who will complain about the deficit or weak laws or government waste, but the papers themselves are not conservative. In terms of social issues they're all reliably on the progressive side of the divide. There is not one media organization in this country that isn't strongly in favour of gender equality, pro gay-rights, pro-life, anti-death penalty, pro union, pro-immigration, diversity and multiculturalism. When you run the check list of social causes most beloved to progressives, the media line up on the progressive side in every single case.

And it is on social causes that the Conservatives are usually attacked, often unfairly. It's already happening to Bernier, with the CBC doing a hit job on him the other day.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on September 25, 2018, 07:41:12 pm
Plus Ontario Proud and Rebel Media lying all over the web... there's no liberal equivalent to that propaganda machine, nor do conservatives do anything to stop the lies...

What do you want conservatives to do? Take Ezra out to the woodshed?
By the way, have you ever tried to reconcile in your mind why a Jew would be a Nazi?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 25, 2018, 07:58:18 pm
What do you want conservatives to do? Take Ezra out to the woodshed?
By the way, have you ever tried to reconcile in your mind why a Jew would be a Nazi?

I want them to denounce.  They're good at that.  I don't get why he hires Nazis.  They make fun of working for him on his own site.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2018, 08:09:10 pm
What do you want conservatives to do? Take Ezra out to the woodshed?
By the way, have you ever tried to reconcile in your mind why a Jew would be a Nazi?

Because that's how he gets a paycheck?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 26, 2018, 04:27:38 pm
I want them to denounce.  They're good at that.  I don't get why he hires Nazis.  They make fun of working for him on his own site.

Didn't Ezra fire Goldy whats-her-face for neo-nazi something-rather.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on September 26, 2018, 07:56:04 pm
https://twitter.com/FaithGoldy/status/1045003772873838594

Ford can't shake Goldy...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on October 01, 2018, 07:26:26 pm
I am anti Trudeau and was anti Wynne. However I think Ford's whining about the free trade deal barely hours after it was signed was cheap below the belt crap.

The decisions that went into the agreement were done trying to consider the unions, business owners and provinces and it is unfair to say Ontario was sold out. In fact car parts manufacturers are better off and the unions and business owners traditionally at opposite ends of the spectrum both have said they can live with the deal.

Ford was out of line not taking time to prepare a proper balanced criticism.. if he had any decency he would have pointed out the positives not just negatives.

Ford can be an ugly, shallow, bully. He can't resist knee jerk cheap shots at a time when we need dignity in politics not slovenly hateful divisiveness.

I will challenge Trudeau but taking cheap shots at him a day after the deal is too easy.

I prefer William Davis like middle of the roaders. I liked David Crombie. I liked Paul Martin.

I don't always agree with John Tory but he brought dignity back to the Mayor's job with his manners.
 
I don't like rude people who look like they devour whales whole without chewing them. I dislike Ford as a person. His party I hope can addresss the serious financial mess.

Ford needs to learn when to lay back. The federal government is going to compensate dairy farmers due to the new agreement. How about then he shut his fat mouth until he finds out the size of that compensation.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on October 01, 2018, 07:51:08 pm
I disagree with what Tory, Crombie and the like represent but you are right - they are dignified and they behave as professionals.

Ford is a yokel.  For that matter, the USMCA seems to have sold out Quebec to save Ontario auto jobs so what is he saying ?

I was going to ask for a link but never mind... I don't care about him....
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on October 25, 2018, 06:08:54 pm
Quote
Get beyond the ideology, and look at the evidence, and you'll find no sign that the workplace reforms and minimum wage increase caused widespread job loss or economic damage.

The changes did put more money in workers' pockets and less in employers' pockets, and that simple fact raises questions about the real reasons why the Ford government is making this move.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-minimum-wage-freeze-employment-law-analysis-1.4877043


No evidence that anything Doug Ford says is true.  That about sums up his first few months in office...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on November 09, 2018, 07:48:59 pm
Doug Ford says he was protecting the victim when he covered up innapropriate sexual advances by his staffer....   suuuurrrre....

https://globalnews.ca/news/4647029/bill-kelly-fords-promise-of-transparency-rings-hollow/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on December 06, 2018, 01:19:11 pm
Another Ford fuck-up.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/washington-state-regulators-reject-hydro-one-avista-takeover-1.4934282

Quote
On Wednesday, the Washington Utilities and Transportation Commission says it found the deal, which valued Avista at $6.7 billion, to not be in the public interest after it became clear that the Ontario government was willing to interfere in the utility.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 06, 2018, 04:15:16 pm
Looks like Ford is hiring his friends and denied the cronyism. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4728001/ford-hiring-ron-taverner-opp-commissioner/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 06, 2018, 04:18:27 pm
Looks like Ford is hiring his friends and denied the cronyism. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4728001/ford-hiring-ron-taverner-opp-commissioner/

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that a government would hire its friends! That NEVER happens!  ::)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 06, 2018, 04:23:36 pm
Another Ford fuck-up.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/washington-state-regulators-reject-hydro-one-avista-takeover-1.4934282

Why would I care? This doesn't cost me anything and doesn't harm Ontario. When he makes OPG renegotiate loans to make himself look good - costing Ontario billions of dollars, you let me know.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-government-obscuring-true-cost-of-cuts-to-hydro-bills-auditor-general-says-1.3635387

Anyway, it's not just Ford. Patrick Brown vowed to do something about the way Hydro awards its senior officers such high salaries too.

http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/news/pc-leader-vowing-to-slash-hydro-one-opg-executive-salaries-1.2821186
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 06, 2018, 04:36:57 pm
I'm shocked, SHOCKED that a government would hire its friends! That NEVER happens!  ::)

Not a good idea to have the top cop in bed with the premier.I guess his other buddies in goernment who dip their fingers into the public pot won't have to worry too much about being investigated seriously. Can you say "authoritarianism"?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on December 06, 2018, 10:50:57 pm
Quote
Why would I care? This doesn't cost me anything and doesn't harm Ontario.

Hydro1 is on the hook for $138 million to pay the other power company. Ontarians are going to pay for that. 

DoFo cost Ontario a lot of money. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 07, 2018, 06:43:20 am
Hydro1 is on the hook for $138 million to pay the other power company. Ontarians are going to pay for that. 

DoFo cost Ontario a lot of money.

This Reddit thread captures the Globe & Mail article: note to self, subscribe to G&M

https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/a3pjbx/doug_ford_gets_rid_of_the_6million_man_and_costs/

Quote
Right now, the deal is dead and Hydro One is on the hook for a US$103-million termination fee owed to Avista. In addition, Hydro One will have to eat at least $49-million in commissions to investment banks that lined up $1.4-billion in financing for a takeover that’s not going to happen. And the utility must pay millions in legal bills. It all adds up to a significant financial setback for Hydro One, which posted a $227-million profit in the most recent quarter.

Of course I would LOVE to blame Douggie for this one but I have to be true to my objectivity and frankly I find it a little suspicious that they would terminate this deal based on him firing the CEO.  But the bill comes to over $185 M ($103M US ~ $138M CDN plus $49M CN).

I would put that on a par with Wynne. 

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 07, 2018, 10:27:26 am
Not a good idea to have the top cop in bed with the premier.I guess his other buddies in goernment who dip their fingers into the public pot won't have to worry too much about being investigated seriously. Can you say "authoritarianism"?


The top cop is always in bed with the premier or prime minister. The OPP union were running commercials in support of Kathleen Wynne.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 07, 2018, 10:27:58 am
Hydro1 is on the hook for $138 million to pay the other power company. Ontarians are going to pay for that. 

DoFo cost Ontario a lot of money.

Their stock shot up, so they can issue a few more to cover it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 07, 2018, 10:30:26 am
I would put that on a par with Wynne.

This costs Hydro - a private company thanks to Wynne - money, not Ontario taxpayers or ratepayers. It will slightly diminish their profits.
This in no way compares to the mess she has made of the electricity system, which has cost and will cost Ontario residents tens of billions of dollars according to the AG's office.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 07, 2018, 11:28:09 am

The top cop is always in bed with the premier or prime minister. The OPP union were running commercials in support of Kathleen Wynne.

They can be close of course, they're just not supposed to hand pick them. That's meant to be done by a competition and selection by a non biased committee.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 07, 2018, 02:38:03 pm
They can be close of course, they're just not supposed to hand pick them. That's meant to be done by a competition and selection by a non biased committee.

The way that political whore Fantino obeyed McGuinty - ordering his officers to ignore the law in Caledonia, showed that there is little separation between the premier's office and the OPP commissioner, regardless of how things are supposed to be.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 07, 2018, 02:56:34 pm
The way that political whore Fantino obeyed McGuinty - ordering his officers to ignore the law in Caledonia, showed that there is little separation between the premier's office and the OPP commissioner, regardless of how things are supposed to be.

And the optics, at least, of what DoFo is doing indicate he is heading down the same road. But then he had a loving brother to show him the path to corruption didn't he.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on December 07, 2018, 03:33:28 pm
FACT 1: Mike Harris opened the door to privatization, the number one problem with Ontario Hydro companies today.
FACT 2: Ernie Eves paved the path to closing all coal plants in Ontario
FACT 3: Dalton McGuinty & Kathleen Wynne sped up the 12 year timeline of closing coal plants by about 14 months
FACT 4: Green Energy subsidies add about 5-6% to your hydro bill


Now, who is responsible for the mess we are in?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 07, 2018, 09:08:54 pm
FACT 1: Mike Harris opened the door to privatization, the number one problem with Ontario Hydro companies today.
FACT 2: Ernie Eves paved the path to closing all coal plants in Ontario
FACT 3: Dalton McGuinty & Kathleen Wynne sped up the 12 year timeline of closing coal plants by about 14 months
FACT 4: Green Energy subsidies add about 5-6% to your hydro bill

Now, who is responsible for the mess we are in?

The McGuinty Liberals, largely.  They built the new plants that produce far beyond capacity & waste ridiculous amounts of money/power, they chose to build more expensive green energy sources, they signed the horrible 20-year contracts we can't get out of.  They also cancelled the gas plants.  Ernie Eves was in power for a year and a half, but yet he closed the plants & built the expensive new ones?  LOL

McGuinty inherited aging power infrastructure that needed to be replaced.  He totally botched it, and Wynne didn't do much to help but the major damage was done.  Ontario has fields of windmills as far as the eye can see producing energy the province doesn't even need.

My evidence is here: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-does-electricity-cost-so-much-in-ontario/article33453270/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 07, 2018, 09:09:34 pm
FACT 1: Mike Harris opened the door to privatization, the number one problem with Ontario Hydro companies today.
FACT 2: Ernie Eves paved the path to closing all coal plants in Ontario
FACT 3: Dalton McGuinty & Kathleen Wynne sped up the 12 year timeline of closing coal plants by about 14 months
FACT 4: Green Energy subsidies add about 5-6% to your hydro bill


Now, who is responsible for the mess we are in?

Did Harris's AG threaten to refuse to sign off on the budget document? Did the chief accountant for Ernie Eves resign because she wouldn't sign off on phony accounting?
Did their information commissioner accuse them of lying?

By the way, you leave out a facts, like the whole green energy boondoggle your beloved Liberals foisted on Ontario. Like the fact your beloved Liberals sold Ontario Hydro and filled OPG with party hacks and friends making outrageous salaries.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on December 08, 2018, 07:50:53 am
Not that anyone cares, but Ron Taverner was unfairly passed over for Toronto Police Chief many times because of political reasons. He did and does have a reputation for playing the media to sell himself which did not sit well, but he was a clean cop and he had his guys back. He is not a dirty cop. He was a bank robbery guy. Try do that thankless job. He is totally qualified. The fact he is a supposed friend of Doug Ford should not disqualify him. Also he has never sat in any conflict of interest relationship with Ford. Someone show me one.

Someone show me dirt on him. You won't find any. He has an ego yes. Dirt no. He's clean. That means something. If this guy shakes your hand, you know he means what he promised. That is the street word on him with friends and foes.

I do  not want to hear one smarmy Liberal on this board tell me a thing about him with their Toronto Police Chief now the Minister of Marijhuana. Thank you,

Regards

huge admirer of hold up squad and anyone who worked for them
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 08, 2018, 12:54:46 pm
Not that anyone cares, but Ron Taverner was unfairly passed over for Toronto Police Chief many times because of political reasons. He did and does have a reputation for playing the media to sell himself which did not sit well, but he was a clean cop and he had his guys back. He is not a dirty cop. He was a bank robbery guy. Try do that thankless job. He is totally qualified. The fact he is a supposed friend of Doug Ford should not disqualify him. Also he has never sat in any conflict of interest relationship with Ford. Someone show me one.

He's sitting in a conflict of interest right now.  They changed the job posting so he could win the job.  It was all set up and all sounds like fishy BS.

As premier you don't make your friend, the person who can investigate you if you break the law, as the head cop of the province. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 08, 2018, 02:44:58 pm
He's sitting in a conflict of interest right now.  They changed the job posting so he could win the job.  It was all set up and all sounds like fishy BS.

Didn't I read recently the Liberals made 88 changes in the rules for the bidding process for new ships - after it had gotten under way?

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on December 08, 2018, 03:17:44 pm
Did Harris's AG threaten to refuse to sign off on the budget document?

You realize the position of auditing the government's books was created because Harris/Eves lied so much about them. Now that we have the position, and the books were audited and statements made, Ford choose to ignore it and inflate them.

Tell me now, what party is fully of lying scoundrels?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on December 08, 2018, 03:20:08 pm
I do  not want to hear one smarmy Liberal on this board tell me a thing about him with their Toronto Police Chief now the Minister of Marijhuana.

I haven't chimed in on Taverner because I know nothing about him. It is funny however that someone chooses to make a statement about Blair and completely ignores Fantino.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on December 08, 2018, 05:06:56 pm
You want a statement about Fantino. He was and is a two faced liar back stabbing political who're of the worst kind in my opinion, Clear enough? Anything else?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on December 08, 2018, 05:12:30 pm
He's sitting in a conflict of interest right now.  They changed the job posting so he could win the job.  It was all set up and all sounds like fishy BS.

As premier you don't make your friend, the person who can investigate you if you break the law, as the head cop of the province.

Zero proof of a conflict. Taverner did not change the job description nor is there an iota of evidence he used any friendship with Ford to get hired or change the job description, Also show me how he did not qualify under the old job description. Get back to me on that because I want to know what qualifications he does not have for the job and the proof Ford had anything to do with choosing him. He 's the subject of a hatchet job. The cops like him. He is their choice. If there is a bias its the cops like him. You want a politically respectable pick spit it out. Should he be a woman of colour lesbian in a wheel chair undergoing a sex change operation?   Please advise on your qualifications. If ever someone was qualified and overdue its him. He 's being falsely accused and smeared simply because he knows the Ford family. That in itself should not disqualify him. Get back to me when you or anyone can explain  how he is not qualified. Talk about a smear job.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 08, 2018, 05:22:52 pm
Show me how he did not qualify under the old job description. Get back to me on that because I want to know what qualifications he does not have for the job and proof Ford had anything to do with choosing him. The cops like him. He is their choice. If there is a bias its the cops like him. You want a politically respectable pick spit it out. Should he be a woman of colour lesbian in a wheel chair undergoing a sex change operation?   Please advise on your qualifications. If ever someone was qualified and overdue its him.

The old job description would disqualify him for not having reached the required rank, so that requirement was toned down. There may or may not have been conflict of interest, but it does leave an appearance of such.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 08, 2018, 08:40:49 pm
Didn't I read recently the Liberals made 88 changes in the rules for the bidding process for new ships - after it had gotten under way?

I don't know anything about that.  If it's true & there's corruption, then it's wrong too.  Corruption and cronyism isn't a partisan issue.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: waldo on December 08, 2018, 10:22:50 pm
Didn't I read recently the Liberals made 88 changes in the rules for the bidding process for new ships - after it had gotten under way?

clearly you didn't understand what you claim to have read! Contract amendments are standard operating procedure within an RFP; in this case principally amendments determined (by the principal contractor, Irving Shipbuilders) in relation to questions received from the 12 pre-qualified bidders along with process improvements to the RFP itself. Considering it's the largest military procurement in Canadian history, even you should be capable of recognizing the need for amendments to an initial RFP release... even you!
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: waldo on December 13, 2018, 12:09:46 am
notwithstanding member Argus doesn't understand an RFP...  ;D

Government gets OK to give warship contract to Lockheed Martin as trade tribunal backtracks (https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/government-gets-ok-to-give-60b-warship-contract-to-lockheed-martin-as-trade-tribunal-backtracks/wcm/7f597cc1-6fea-4928-a05c-c5cd687f07df)

Quote
A federal trade tribunal has rescinded its order preventing the federal government from awarding a contract to Lockheed Martin Canada for a new fleet of warships for the Canadian navy.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 13, 2018, 06:07:20 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ndp-calls-for-investigation-into-next-opp-chief-1.4942725

I have never tried a Ford camper....  :D
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 13, 2018, 04:39:12 pm
You want a statement about Fantino. He was and is a two faced liar back stabbing political who're of the worst kind in my opinion, Clear enough? Anything else?

I contributed money to the Liberal running against him first time around in hopes he wouldn't win. He was a sleazy scumbag who bullied those below him and sucked up to anyone with authority or power.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 13, 2018, 04:42:56 pm
You realize the position of auditing the government's books was created because Harris/Eves lied so much about them.

Uhm, nope. The Liberals simply lied about the budget deficit from day one. They never planned to get anywhere near a balanced budget, much like their federal counterparts, so they falsified the budget books. They basically took everything they could find, including expenses which wouldn't be incurred in that year, and shoved them all together to pretend the deficit was bigger than it was.

Then they increased taxes, despite promising not to, increased them further with the health care tax, and then increased spending dramatically.

Quote
Tell me now, what party is fully of lying scoundrels?

Yours. And you clearly fit right in.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on December 13, 2018, 04:45:36 pm
Uhm, nope. The Liberals simply lied about the budget deficit from day one.

Uhm, not listening again. I said that Ford didn't take the Liberals word, but he also didn't take the AG word either. Ford, just like Harris/Eves is lying just as much as the Liberals ever did.

You know my 'party' has never been the Liberals. The only time I voted Liberal since the 80's was the 2015 federal election, forced into that position by Harper and his cabal.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 13, 2018, 04:46:25 pm
notwithstanding member Argus doesn't understand an RFP...  ;D

Government gets OK to give warship contract to Lockheed Martin as trade tribunal backtracks (https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/government-gets-ok-to-give-60b-warship-contract-to-lockheed-martin-as-trade-tribunal-backtracks/wcm/7f597cc1-6fea-4928-a05c-c5cd687f07df)

I just to write them
And all your cite says is that they've agreed to let the government proceed while they investigate. It doesn't say they have disagreed with the complaint.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 13, 2018, 04:48:12 pm
Uhm, not listening again. I said that Ford didn't take the Liberals word, but he also didn't take the AG word either. Ford, just like Harris/Eves is lying just as much as the Liberals ever did.

Ford will be judged by whether he can significantly reduce the deficit. So far I'm not impressed. But he'll have to a one hell of a long way to outdoor the blanket incompetence and corruption of your girl Kathleen.

Quote
You know my 'party' has never been the Liberals. The only time I voted Liberal since the 80's was the 2015 federal election, forced into that position by the lying Harper and his cabal.

And yet you'll fight to the death against anyone who dares say one thing against Liberal party policy.
Fuck off. You're a devoted Liberal.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 14, 2018, 05:51:05 am
Fuck off. You're a devoted Liberal.

This strikes me as a cool license plate framer or door mat.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 14, 2018, 05:54:18 am
One thing I am learning from work and my Agile training is that management, left to its own, will always misalign with what is needed.  To me this is government, ALL government, in spades.

Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me.  They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office.

I think it will be a lot better when we start aligning our services with what people want. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 11:16:19 am
Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me.  They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office.

That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes. And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice. The only way they impact me is by raising my taxes, which has happened frequently under the Liberals in both Ottawa and Toronto. But generally* once the Tories get in the Liberals have run the economy into the ground, and there's little room left to raise taxes. If Trudeau gets elected again next year, as is likely, then by the time the Tories do get in we can expect to have an even more massive debt load, higher taxes, and an economy in tatters. So again, they'll have to cut services, and that will impact the poor a lot more than me.

*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2018, 12:22:40 pm
That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes. And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice. The only way they impact me is by raising my taxes, which has happened frequently under the Liberals in both Ottawa and Toronto. But generally* once the Tories get in the Liberals have run the economy into the ground, and there's little room left to raise taxes. If Trudeau gets elected again next year, as is likely, then by the time the Tories do get in we can expect to have an even more massive debt load, higher taxes, and an economy in tatters. So again, they'll have to cut services, and that will impact the poor a lot more than me.

*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.

According to the PBO Harper did exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

According to estimates by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), the tax cuts implemented by the Harper government from 2005 to 2013 result in an annual loss to the federal government of $17.1 billion of personal income taxes, $13.3 billion of GST revenues and $13 billion in corporate income taxes — for a total annual revenue loss of $43.5 billion. And this does not include all of the tax changes made by the Conservative government over this period, or others made since.

However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/robbing-the-poor-to-give-to-the-rich
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 03:38:18 pm
According to the PBO Harper did exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

Oh, this should be good. You're going to tell me now that the Harper government slashed spending on the poor, right?

Quote
According to estimates by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), the tax cuts implemented by the Harper government from 2005 to 2013 result in an annual loss to the federal government of $17.1 billion of personal income taxes, $13.3 billion of GST revenues and $13 billion in corporate income taxes — for a total annual revenue loss of $43.5 billion. And this does not include all of the tax changes made by the Conservative government over this period, or others made since.

This irrelevant piece of data from a radical left web site has basically NOTHING to do with what I said. Go back to my post, find someone to read it and explain it to you.

Quote
However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

Uhm, well, total bullshit, of course. And it ignores the fact Trudeau cut taxes to 'the middle class' to buy votes, cut the Tory government's responsible pledge to raise the pension payout age by a couple of years (as most western countries have done), and increased spending on a wide variety of 'social infrastructure' plans without raising taxes to pay for them. Further, the Tory tax cuts helped ease our economy's downfall in the recession. We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2018, 03:41:32 pm
Oh, this should be good. You're going to tell me now that the Harper government slashed spending on the poor, right?

This irrelevant piece of data from a radical left web site has basically NOTHING to do with what I said. Go back to my post, find someone to read it and explain it to you.

Uhm, well, total bullshit, of course. And it ignores the fact Trudeau cut taxes to 'the middle class' to buy votes, cut the Tory government's responsible pledge to raise the pension payout age by a couple of years (as most western countries have done), and increased spending on a wide variety of 'social infrastructure' plans without raising taxes to pay for them. Further, the Tory tax cuts helped ease our economy's downfall in the recession. We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

I think I'll take the report from the PBO over yours. Thanks for trying though.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on December 14, 2018, 03:46:03 pm
We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

The problem is that it would become a "build the wall", "lock her up", rally cry at right wing hate fests. I always blame McGuinty for not spending the hundreds of billions needed to fix the Harris hydro mistakes, but all we get from the right wing crowd is that hydro is 100% McGunity's fault and no recognition that it was a disaster planned by Harris.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 14, 2018, 05:18:16 pm
That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

I really don't think I did that.

Quote
The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes.

Right.

Quote
And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I don't see it that way.  They cut the poor because it's easy and doesn't cost them votes with their base is one explanation.  But I'm open to this ... Not sure why it goes that way.

Quote
I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice.

Sorry, not true.  You are overstating here.
 
Quote
*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.

I think that was Martin.  Martin restructured EI in a way that didn't cost votes and didn't destroy people.  It was hard on seasonal workers but it flew, politically.  Again, I'm open to looking at it ...

---------

My point is not to criticize conservatives but liberals also.  Having managed projects for decades, I can tell you that anyone "in the know" can figure out a way to deliver more with less.  Liberal friends would kill me but Rob Ford was right: there is a gravy train.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on December 14, 2018, 05:31:00 pm
Quote
I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice.

What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement. 


Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 14, 2018, 07:19:29 pm
However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

Most of the things you mentioned, the federal government has no jurisdiction over.  Health care and education, for instance.

But ya, the tax cuts were dumb, we should have used the tax revenue to pay down the debt a bit...at least until the recession hit.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 14, 2018, 07:22:57 pm
What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement.   

Didn't SJ work as a contractor for the government ?  Certainly fomenting a viable business environment for us to work in is something the government deserves credit for, even if you are cynical about them.  There are more Venezuelas, North Koreas and Qatars in the world than Canadas.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 07:46:14 pm
What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement. 

Oh bite me, pedant.

Quote
]So you would test your own food imports for safety?  Check for mad cow in that Alberta beef?  You would ensure those chickens coming from the farm are safe to eat?[/li]

[li]You would fix part of the highway when it gets a pothole? [/li]

[li]You could ensure your car isn't polluting the air all by yourself?[/li]

[li]You don't use any imports ever?  All your goods come from your local manufacturers, farmers and producers?  [/li]

[li]Any medications you use will be tested for safety by....  you?[/li]

[li]You want to join the private militia to do patrols in your neighbourhood and stand guard at the border?  [/li]

[li]I guess this same private militia will make sure the prison system works and conduct trials and hangings of criminals as needed?[/li][/list]



What I said was I benefit from no government programs - not that I don't benefit from anything the government does. I do not get any sort of moneys or subsidies from either level of government. I benefit no more than say, a long term visitor or temporary foreign worker. There is nothing government can cut which will really impact me at that kind of level. As opposed to poorer people who are recipients of various income redistribution efforts, and various other efforts at providing them with better lives.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 07:48:02 pm
Didn't SJ work as a contractor for the government ?  Certainly fomenting a viable business environment for us to work in is something the government deserves credit for, even if you are cynical about them.  There are more Venezuelas, North Koreas and Qatars in the world than Canadas.

In point of fact 95% of my money comes from foreign sources. And I work on my computer. I could relocate to the Virgin Islands and continue working as I am (and have considered it)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 07:49:17 pm
Most of the things you mentioned, the federal government has no jurisdiction over.  Health care and education, for instance.

But ya, the tax cuts were dumb, we should have used the tax revenue to pay down the debt a bit...at least until the recession hit.

I agree. I was against the cuts at the time and said so. For me, paying down the debt is number one. Unfortunately, they used it as an election ploy and Canadians being whores, it certainly got them a number of votes. I don't think they really needed it, though.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 07:54:01 pm
I think I'll take the report from the PBO over yours. Thanks for trying though.

Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2018, 07:58:16 pm
In point of fact 95% of my money comes from foreign sources. And I work on my computer. I could relocate to the Virgin Islands and continue working as I am (and have considered it)

And of course if you fell and broke your arm you'd jump on a plane to the VI to have it re-set? Right!
I think we all know squid gotcha.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2018, 08:04:07 pm
Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said.

Some reading for you on the subject:

The PBO’s annual long-term fiscal sustainability report released Thursday says the Harper government’s decision to scale back the growth in Canada Health Transfer payments means provincial governments will increasingly struggle to afford health-care services for their citizens.

“Far from putting our fiscal house in order, this report shows how Conservative cuts to the Canada Health Transfer and Old Age Security are actually just downloaded these costs onto the provinces and individual Canadians.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ottawas-overhaul-of-health-care-funding-has-left-enormous-fiscal-gap-for-provinces-pbo-warns
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 08:10:46 pm
I really don't think I did that.

Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me. They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office

Quote
I don't see it that way.  They cut the poor because it's easy and doesn't cost them votes with their base is one explanation.  But I'm open to this ... Not sure why it goes that way.

To repeat. Chretien tackled the debt in large measure by slashing payments to the provinces for social welfare. That meant the provinces had to cut education, health care, and social welfare spending. The feds also cut services to the poor that they paid directly. I remember one particular program they cut was to subsidize wheelchairs for the poor.

Once you exclude pensions, and a variety of programs which can't really be seriously cut, there is a huge chunk of cash that goes to directly benefit people who get assistance due to poverty. You can't not cut that unless you're going to cut everything else even more heavily. I mean, the Chretien liberals cut the military, for example, but if they had held back on cutting social programs there' d have been NO military. Have a look at the pie chart here to see where the feds money goes to and tell me how you cut 30 or 40 billion dollars from that without hurting anyone.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tax-dollars-1.4545415

 
Quote
I think that was Martin.  Martin restructured EI in a way that didn't cost votes and didn't destroy people.  It was hard on seasonal workers but it flew, politically.  Again, I'm open to looking at it ...

But in relative terms, budget officer Jean-Denis Frechette said that "middle-low income earner received the greatest financial benefit."
Since 2005, the government has cut personal income taxes by a single point — to 15% — and cut two points off the GST/HST. The moves have overall, been "progressive and made income distribution more just," Frechette said.


https://www.saultstar.com/2014/05/27/tory-tax-cuts-have-helped-balance-income-inequality-report/wcm/4b2a4a0e-adb4-4228-bbe4-65c385d2207c

Quote
My point is not to criticize conservatives but liberals also.  Having managed projects for decades, I can tell you that anyone "in the know" can figure out a way to deliver more with less.  Liberal friends would kill me but Rob Ford was right: there is a gravy train.

There are all sorts of ways to save money but little incentive to do so. The massive red-tape in government, which I witnessed first hand, is primarily designed to ensure that none of the ex class can be blamed for anything that goes wrong. If that means spending ten bucks on oversight for a program that spends one buck - to make sure that one buck is spent in accordance with policy, and thus spare the higher ups any potential embarrassment, then they'll spend the ten bucks. That's why it takes months, if not years to get anything done - so everyone's butt is covered by the documented meetings, consultations, studies, reports and buy-ins.

Then too, every politician wants to make promises for new programs before an election. But no politician wants to remove programs. Because whenever you do someone will squeal and the press will cover it.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SirJohn on December 14, 2018, 08:14:10 pm
Some reading for you on the subject:

The PBO’s annual long-term fiscal sustainability report released Thursday says the Harper government’s decision to scale back the growth in Canada Health Transfer payments means provincial governments will increasingly struggle to afford health-care services for their citizens.

This is not what we were talking about. And the health increases were never designed to continue to rise by 6% annually forever. They were supposed to rise for a decade to make up for all the money the previous government had cut. Then after that they rose by 4.9% instead of 6%. As long as they continue to rise by high levels the provinces, like those idiots in Ontario, had no particular incentive to reign in their out of control spending.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on December 14, 2018, 08:22:02 pm
Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me. They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office

"That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided."

There is nothing in my statement that blames one side.  I explain why the left hates the budget cuts, that is all.  I also blame the left for supporting bloated bureaucracy.

Quote
To repeat. Chretien tackled the debt in large measure by slashing payments to the provinces for social welfare. That meant the provinces had to cut education, health care, and social welfare spending. The feds also cut services to the poor that they paid directly. I remember one particular program they cut was to subsidize wheelchairs for the poor.

Ok.

Quote
Once you exclude pensions, and a variety of programs which can't really be seriously cut, there is a huge chunk of cash that goes to directly benefit people who get assistance due to poverty. You can't not cut that unless you're going to cut everything else even more heavily. I mean, the Chretien liberals cut the military, for example, but if they had held back on cutting social programs there' d have been NO military. Have a look at the pie chart here to see where the feds money goes to and tell me how you cut 30 or 40 billion dollars from that without hurting anyone.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tax-dollars-1.4545415

I will look.

Quote

But in relative terms, budget officer Jean-Denis Frechette said that "middle-low income earner received the greatest financial benefit."
Since 2005, the government has cut personal income taxes by a single point — to 15% — and cut two points off the GST/HST. The moves have overall, been "progressive and made income distribution more just," Frechette said.


https://www.saultstar.com/2014/05/27/tory-tax-cuts-have-helped-balance-income-inequality-report/wcm/4b2a4a0e-adb4-4228-bbe4-65c385d2207c

There are all sorts of ways to save money but little incentive to do so. The massive red-tape in government, which I witnessed first hand, is primarily designed to ensure that none of the ex class can be blamed for anything that goes wrong. If that means spending ten bucks on oversight for a program that spends one buck - to make sure that one buck is spent in accordance with policy, and thus spare the higher ups any potential embarrassment, then they'll spend the ten bucks. That's why it takes months, if not years to get anything done - so everyone's butt is covered by the documented meetings, consultations, studies, reports and buy-ins.

Then too, every politician wants to make promises for new programs before an election. But no politician wants to remove programs. Because whenever you do someone will squeal and the press will cover it.

The 2nd last paragraph is what I am talking about.  And how can there be little incentive ?  It seems to me to reflect a lack of imagination.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2018, 08:23:15 pm
This is not what we were talking about. And the health increases were never designed to continue to rise by 6% annually forever. They were supposed to rise for a decade to make up for all the money the previous government had cut. Then after that they rose by 4.9% instead of 6%. As long as they continue to rise by high levels the provinces, like those idiots in Ontario, had no particular incentive to reign in their out of control spending.

Well you seem to be able to try and ignore the fact that Canadians are getting older, retiring, and eventually will need health care. At the same time you don't want any damn fureners coming in to fill jobs we are leaving, so as revenues decline and costs go up, you better high tail it for the islands.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 15, 2019, 12:14:33 am
How many dick pics is too many dick pics?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on January 15, 2019, 05:38:07 am
How many dick pics is too many dick pics?

That would be 'one', big shooter.

What is SSP now ?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: waldo on January 15, 2019, 12:49:14 pm
How many dick pics is too many dick pics?

uhhh, "member" pinus, perhaps your prior approvals lacked threshold guidance

(https://i.imgur.com/BOuCFIr.png)
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on January 23, 2019, 02:07:54 am
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4984766

DoFo hires 97 year old woman to be his advisor @ $150k/yr.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on January 23, 2019, 02:10:32 am
DoFo’s daughter promotes illegal marijuana products.....   which is illegal to do.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/2019/01/22/kyla-ford-instagram-black-market-cannabis-oils_a_23649983/?ec_carp=6269242891678665801
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: kimmy on January 23, 2019, 02:14:51 am
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4984766

DoFo hires 97 year old woman to be his advisor @ $150k/yr.

She's something of a local legend, isn't she? I remember hearing about her.  I can't imagine she's got $150k/year worth of good advice, though.

By way of comparison the Mayor of Vancouver earns about $175k and Vancouver city councillors make $87k.

 -k
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 23, 2019, 07:23:30 am
She's something of a local legend, isn't she? I remember hearing about her.  I can't imagine she's got $150k/year worth of good advice, though.

By way of comparison the Mayor of Vancouver earns about $175k and Vancouver city councillors make $87k.

 -k

She was a very popular longtime mayor of Mississauga, ON.  She publicly endorsed Ford during the election, and i think did an ad featuring her voice to say so.  Pay back to a good friend.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on January 23, 2019, 02:14:48 pm
Pay back to a good friend.

The word is patronage.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on January 23, 2019, 02:36:13 pm
The word is patronage.

How's the "buck a beer" thing going I wonder. Damn glad I moved away from Ontario before the Ford Fiasco occurred.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 24, 2019, 12:23:01 pm
How did this guy end up in charge of Ontario province anyway? I haven't read this whole thread and wanted to jump in and ask.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on January 27, 2019, 10:23:29 pm
How did this guy end up in charge of Ontario province anyway? I haven't read this whole thread and wanted to jump in and ask.

He won the election.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 28, 2019, 04:58:05 am
He won the election.

Allow me to rephrase the question: what about him (or his party) appealed to voters?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on January 28, 2019, 05:27:26 am
Allow me to rephrase the question: what about him (or his party) appealed to voters?

He was not Kathleen Wynne.

He represents an archetype that many people like.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 29, 2019, 10:21:55 pm
What archetype would that be?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on January 30, 2019, 05:37:38 am
What archetype would that be?

Tight-fisted, fat, white, hard-ass.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on February 11, 2019, 09:56:08 am
Tight-fisted, fat, white, hard-ass.

Clearly you project. Speak for yourself and your own Crisco.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on February 12, 2019, 05:44:10 am
Clearly you project. Speak for yourself and your own Crisco.

Ok, sure.  Doug Ford is more of a tweed jacket, tortoise shell glasses nebbish type.   ???
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on February 27, 2019, 03:33:34 pm
Doug Ford got a sweet new van paid for by taxpayers...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0WIIxiU0AEQtkk.jpg)

[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 28, 2019, 09:20:58 pm
He was not Kathleen Wynne.

Exactly.  In fact, he was the antithesis of Wynne.  When people get sick of a leader or party the pendulum tends to swing to the opposite in reaction, not to the middle.

Like going from Bush to Obama to Trump.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on March 01, 2019, 05:40:46 am
In the US the left and right have switched archetypes.

Doug Ford would have been a democrat in the tradition of Huey Long, LBJ...the Republicans were wonky nerds like Wynne.

It is time for massive change and the rewards are there for the leader who can see it.  We need someone who looks like Ford, and thinks like a strategist. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Boges on March 13, 2019, 08:13:11 am
Looks like Discovery Math is on the way out in Ontario

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/exclusive-new-math-curriculum-goes-back-to-the-basics

When we talk about evidence based policy, DoFo is right on the mark here. Ontario students aren't doing well with this math.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-pushes-for-more-teacher-training-as-math-score-hits-new-low/

Quote
They showed that fewer than half of the province’s Grade 6 pupils – 49 per cent – met the provincial standard in math in the 2017-18 academic year, a one-percentage-point decline from the previous year and a five-percentage-point drop since 2014.

Among Grade 3 pupils, 61 per cent met the provincial standard in math. That was down one percentage point from the previous year and a six-percentage-point drop since 2014. (The provincial standard is equivalent to a B grade.)

In an e-mail on Tuesday to school board chairs, a copy of which was obtained by The Globe and Mail, Ms. Thompson asked districts to refocus one of their three mandatory professional activity day for teachers on arithmetic skills, and that they do so before the December holidays.

So either Ontario's well paid teachers are doing a shitty job teaching this method of math or perhaps it's not the best way to grasp the subject.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 11:43:14 am
I strongly believe this has less to do with HOW math is being taught and WHO the math is being taught to. Kids cannot be failed in earlier grades*, so more students who have not met the earlier requirements are making it through to more advanced grades without having the skills to complete the tests. In the past, you would have had children of different ages within a couple years taking the tests because they would have been held back. Some of the students in grade 6 would be 12-13 others 10-11.  Now they're all the same age but at vastly different skill levels because they're allowed to advanced without picking up the requisite knowledge first.



*There are vast developmental differences in single year increments at those ages and holding students backs actually broadens the developmental issues later on down the line, setting them on a worse trajectory than if they just let them through. While I get that people resist this idea because we're not allowing kids to fail, it's actually better in the long term. The evidence strongly shows that holding young students back actually creates far worse problems later in life, especially when they are teenagers.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Boges on March 13, 2019, 11:46:37 am
I strongly believe this has less to do with HOW math is being taught and WHO the math is being taught to. Kids cannot be failed in earlier grades*, so more students who have not met the earlier requirements are making it through to more advanced grades without having the skills to complete the tests. In the past, you would have had children of different ages within a couple years taking the tests because they would have been held back. Some of the students in grade 6 would be 12-13 others 10-11.  Now they're all the same age but at vastly different skill levels because they're allowed to advanced without picking up the requisite knowledge first.



*There are vast developmental differences in single year increments at those ages and holding students backs actually broadens the developmental issues later on down the line, setting them on a worse trajectory than if they just let them through. While I get that people resist this idea because we're not allowing kids to fail, it's actually better in the long term. The evidence strongly shows that holding young students back actually creates far worse problems later in life, especially when they are teenagers.


Not failing kids isn't something the PCs decided was a good idea AFAIK.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 12:11:21 pm
Not failing kids isn't something the PCs decided was a good idea AFAIK.
Not failing kids wasn't a government policy at all. It was a shift in pedagogy based on research in education and child development.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on March 15, 2019, 03:03:24 pm
Doug Ford’s gov’t announces funding for in-class help for artistic kids.  They will receive “per pupil” funding of $12,300...   

This is the exact amount of current per pupil funding that schools get now.   So the Ford gov’t just announced that autistic kids will receive the same funding at school as kids without autism. 

Wow....   talk about trying to pull the wool over people's eyes!

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEDufjqwGpIt6S2tjlpZgTW8qFggEKg4IACoGCAowqKNmMKjdCjDGlx0?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA%3Aen
But here's the thing: This was not new money.

Quote
The $12,300 figure was projected back in August as the average per-pupil funding available for the 2018-2019 school year. This is up only slightly from the previous year, when the per-pupil figure was $12,100. But the increase had already happened — Thompson's "announcement" was an announcement of the status quo. The same funds.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2019, 03:18:45 pm
This is the type of populist gold that'll get DoFo re-elect.

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/ontario-to-expand-beer-wine-to-corner-stores-finance-minister-says

Quote
TORONTO — Ontario’s finance minister says the province will move ahead with an expansion of beer and wine sales into corner stores, big box stores, and more grocery stores.

Vic Fedeli says the Progressive Conservative government will make good on a pledge made during last spring’s election to offer consumers more choice when it comes to where they can purchase booze.

He gave no timeline for the move but said it will drive down prices on beer and wine and ensure that the government does not need to privatize assets to increase availability of products.

The Tories have previously said they are not planning to privatize Liquor Control Board of Ontario stores despite receiving a report last fall that recommended consideration of the sale of some government assets.

Fedeli says Ontario currently has the lowest density of retail outlets selling beer, wine, cider and spirits in Canada, with less than 3,000 outlets selling alcohol compared to Quebec’s approximately 8,000.

Treat us like adults!
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on March 28, 2019, 03:33:40 pm
This is the type of populist gold that'll get DoFo re-elect.

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/ontario-to-expand-beer-wine-to-corner-stores-finance-minister-says

Treat us like adults!

You would cut off your nose to spite your face....     autistic kids?  Fuck’em!  Beer in corner stores?  Vote DoFo!!
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2019, 04:09:51 pm
You would cut off your nose to spite your face....     autistic kids?  Fuck’em!  Beer in corner stores?  Vote DoFo!!

Ford gov reduced max funding for each child, but there were 8400 kids under the program with a 23,000 waitlist.  So they're giving less to each parent, but trying to make sure every child is funded by the program.  Who knows if that will work.

Parents who currently receive funding are rightfully upset.  Parents with kids on the waitlist might be happier, but i guess most parents want the full funding given to every child.  Total funding isn't being reduced, apparently, from what the gov has said.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: TimG on March 28, 2019, 06:05:31 pm
Ford gov reduced max funding for each child, but there were 8400 kids under the program with a 23,000 waitlist.  So they're giving less to each parent, but trying to make sure every child is funded by the program.  Who knows if that will work.
This is the illustration how finite government resources cannot possibly satisfy everyone. Wynne set up a system that simply rationed access leaving most without any funding at all and she was lauded for it. Ford tries share those finite resources more broadly and is castigated.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on March 28, 2019, 08:22:07 pm
This is the illustration how finite government resources cannot possibly satisfy everyone. Wynne set up a system that simply rationed access leaving most without any funding at all and she was lauded for it. Ford tries share those finite resources more broadly and is castigated.

From what I have read that sounds right but the optics are bad, ie. the overall cut is what people are focussing on.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2019, 09:29:00 pm
From what I have read that sounds right but the optics are bad, ie. the overall cut is what people are focussing on.

What was the overall cut?  I haven't read that.  Link?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2019, 09:38:32 pm
This is the illustration how finite government resources cannot possibly satisfy everyone. Wynne set up a system that simply rationed access leaving most without any funding at all and she was lauded for it. Ford tries share those finite resources more broadly and is castigated.

There was some uproar when the Wynne gov changed the program a few years ago, wouldn't call it a lauded program with 23,000 kids on a waitlist.

It sounds like funding for autism and mental health in ON is a joke.  If you're going to have universal healthcare you better be ready to fund it, and not piss a provinces money away via dumb hydro decisions etc.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on March 29, 2019, 05:45:03 am
What was the overall cut?  I haven't read that.  Link?

I have lots of links that say "Ford government autism cuts" BUT nothing that talks about the overall funding.

Is this a case of the details being washed out by an emotional reaction then ?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Boges on March 29, 2019, 07:58:45 am
The Autism file really can't be used as a partisan cudgel as the Liberals couldn't satisfy Autism parents either.

It's kind of like the teachers. They've picked fights with every government of every stripe.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 12, 2019, 09:34:09 pm
ON budget is out.  Surprisingly no major cuts.  Ford gov is actually spending more than any other gov in ON history, 4 billion more in budget spending than the last Wynne Liberal budget.  The budget says reductions will come every year after this for the next few years to eventually balance the budget around 2022-2023.

Some odd cuts, like in the ministries of education and indigenous affairs, some odd alcohol and license plate policies etc, but not as bad as I and others feared.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on April 13, 2019, 01:07:45 pm
ON budget is out.  Surprisingly no major cuts.  Ford gov is actually spending more than any other gov in ON history, 4 billion more in budget spending than the last Wynne Liberal budget.  The budget says reductions will come every year after this for the next few years to eventually balance the budget around 2022-2023.

Some odd cuts, like in the ministries of education and indigenous affairs, some odd alcohol and license plate policies etc, but not as bad as I and others feared.

Didn’t you used to think that debt and deficits were a bad thing? 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2019, 04:56:36 pm
Sounds like a Trump budget, rail at deficits during an election then increase it when elected. Also similar to a Trudeau budget. We’re screwed.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 17, 2019, 01:08:56 pm
The Autism file really can't be used as a partisan cudgel as the Liberals couldn't satisfy Autism parents either.

It's kind of like the teachers. They've picked fights with every government of every stripe.

It's like TimG said, there's finite resources and not enough money to satisfy everyone, whether healthcare or education.

The Liberals had severely bungled the coffers of the province due to their energy mismanagement the last ~15 years, which has made things much worse.  And nobody wants to raise taxes to pay for these wanted services.  So here we are, in a big mess of doo-doo.

The alcohol policies of Ford are just dumb distractions from a guy who likes to sit around in his backyard in his wife-beater drinking brewsky, they don't cost the province any money.  The Ford brothers are obsessed with getting high  :D
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2019, 01:16:11 pm
It's like TimG said, there's finite resources and not enough money to satisfy everyone, whether healthcare or education.

The Liberals had severely bungled the coffers of the province due to their energy mismanagement the last ~15 years, which has made things much worse.  And nobody wants to raise taxes to pay for these wanted services.  So here we are, in a big mess of doo-doo.

The alcohol policies of Ford are just dumb distractions from a guy who likes to sit around in his backyard in his wife-beater drinking brewsky, they don't cost the province any money.  The Ford brothers are obsessed with getting high  :D

I can certainly envision Jason Kenny heading east to sit in Ford's backyard to celebrate his elction success with a few of those "buck a beer" brewskys". Birds of a feather...
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on April 20, 2019, 07:03:32 am
Doug Ford cuts legal aid for refugees and immigrants
https://theconversation.com/ontarios-cuts-to-legal-aid-for-refugees-racist-xenophobic-and-possibly-unconstitutional-115615?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20for%20April%2017%202019+CID_78146583d6ab005044578064da760bd7&utm_source=campaign_monitor_ca&utm_term=Ontarios%20cuts%20to%20legal%20aid%20for%20refugees%20Racist%20xenophobic%20and%20possibly%20unconstitutional

It'll be a long expensive process for Doug to be told by the Supreme Court that discrimination isn't constitutional.
Probably end up costing more than the legal aid would.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on May 03, 2019, 08:43:20 pm
National Post:


Randall Denley: Before Doug Ford cuts, he should ask himself, ‘Will this sound stupid?’

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/randall-denley-before-doug-ford-cuts-he-should-ask-himself-will-this-sound-stupid?fbclid=IwAR3gsKJqEczH6GDYsl9eAVS5jPb0oA0WFVA-k31NbXhH8JYu1s0B3LQ1PZo

Quote
Everyone who thinks Ontario needs to spend less money on flood control, plant fewer trees or get rid of its inter-library loan program, please raise your hands? Right, there’s the problem. None of these ideas make intuitive sense and the government has done a poor job of explaining why the cuts are being made.

If a government is going to risk being accused of hating libraries and the environment, the savings need to be commensurate to the political heat.  That’s not the case with any of these moves, which are the budgetary equivalent of looking in your other pants for spare change.

Sometimes you read an article that articulates an incomplete thought in your mind and finishes it.  Why does it come out during a flood that they want to cut back flood control ?  I suspect this is about ninnyism but then again the article asks "why feed it ?"  They have poor political sense. 
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on May 04, 2019, 02:54:36 pm
Yes, but book I can understand. Only "lefties" bother to read, real men are educated through youtube and twitter.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on May 10, 2019, 10:44:09 pm
Wow...   what a shit-show of a gov’t.

https://www.thestar.com/amp/politics/political-opinion/2019/05/10/a-depressing-day-for-democracy-in-ontario.html

Quote
Not only will he not answer their questions, but he will ignore the topics entirely, instead reading from a list — literally — of unrelated government announcements.

When the NDP asks about the future of ambulance services, the premier replies by boasting about his “buck-a-beer” strategy, bemoans “illegal border-crossers,” and decries the “job-killing carbon tax.” On cue, his majority Tories jump to their feet with standing ovations.

The loyal opposition shall be forever stonewalled. But whenever more faithful Progressive Conservative backbenchers ask their prepared questions, Ford’s cabinet replies with exquisitely and obsequiously scripted answers.

Ontario’s so-called First Government For the People has turned parliamentary democracy upside down: It shall be answerable only to its own members, but unaccountable to elected MPPs from opposition parties who captured more than 58 per cent of the vote.

Green Party Leader Mike Schreiner rises with a question about the dreaded Ontario Municipal Board — unanimously voted out of existence in the last legislature with the support of the Progressive Conservatives, but now revived by them. Finance Minister Vic Fedeli declines to explain the about-face, instead trumpeting cancellation of a scheduled hike in the minimum wage to $15 — not so much a non-answer as a non sequitur.

While the politicians talk past each other inside the chamber, anti-abortion protestors are outside on the front lawn. Progressive Conservative MPP Sam Oosterhoff slips out to address the crowd, vowing to make a woman’s right to abortion “unthinkable in our lifetime.”

How the heck did this guy get elected?   And how is it a good idea to make a 21 year old home-schooled virgin who opposes sex ed to be secretary of education?

https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/opinion-story/9348650-sam-oosterhoff-just-needs-a-friend/
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on May 10, 2019, 10:58:04 pm
Secretary of education ?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: the_squid on May 10, 2019, 10:59:44 pm
Secretary of education ?

Sorry...  wrong title.

“parliamentary assistant to the education minister“
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 11, 2019, 12:09:29 am
Wow...   what a shit-show of a gov’t.

How the heck did this guy get elected?

Goes to show how crappy the other parties were.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on May 11, 2019, 02:03:56 pm
How the heck did this guy get elected?

I have come to the conclusion that about 20% of the population is mentally challenged, and it doesn't take much to get them to support you. Doug Ford won with 17.7% of the citizens of Ontario voting for him. Too many others have been turned off from participating because of the shyte show that people like him create.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 13, 2019, 06:48:26 pm
Ford gov reduced max funding for each child, but there were 8400 kids under the program with a 23,000 waitlist.  So they're giving less to each parent, but trying to make sure every child is funded by the program.  Who knows if that will work.

Parents who currently receive funding are rightfully upset.  Parents with kids on the waitlist might be happier, but i guess most parents want the full funding given to every child.  Total funding isn't being reduced, apparently, from what the gov has said.

Parents on the waiting list won't be happier to have the same funding they already have, and NO chance of funding for autistic kids' special programs at all.

Every child gets the standard  per pupil amount.
Some autistic students were previously alloted additional funding.
That's been cut.
Other autistic students were on a waiting list for that additional funding.
Now they won't ever get it.
There is no waiting list anymore because there is no additional funding for programs for autistic kids.

Just the same province wide per pupil funding rate.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 16, 2019, 01:51:51 am
Doug Ford ventured out to the Special Olympics without his paid political clappers.
It didn't go well for him.

https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/05/doug-ford-special-olympics/

"I haven't heard that much energy in a long time," Ford said to the jeering crowd. He then added, "boy, that's the first event that I've ever had some boos."

While Ford wasn't the only politician present at the opening ceremonies, some noted that he was the only one to receive such a resounding negative reception.
It's not much of a surprise that Ford didn't receive a warm welcome at last night's event, seeing as he recently cut funding to the Ontario Autism Program.

Many athletes with autism compete in the Special Olympics, and were likely present in the crowd.


Twitter was quick react to the Ford boo session, with most people siding  with the protesting audience.


Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on May 16, 2019, 05:59:46 am
I hate Ford as much as the next guy but the extemporaneous response of "wow you guys are booing me" is offhandedly candid and disarming.  IOW I appreciate his honesty here.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 11:29:57 am
Ford has lost 10% of his support in latest poll:

https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2019/05/16/poll-suggests-pc-support-eroding-after-budget-cuts.html
The Pollara Strategic Insights survey found
31 per cent of respondents now prefer Andrea Horwath’s New Democrats, compared to
30 per cent for Ford’s Tories and
26 per cent for the Liberals under interim Leader John Fraser.
Mike Schreiner’s Greens have surged to 11 per cent.
...
In last June’s election,
the Tories won 40.5 per cent of the vote,
the NDP 33.6 per cent,
the Liberals 19.6 per cent,
and the Greens 4.6 per cent.


Ford's losses are going to the Liberals and the Greens.

Die-hard Tories:  25 per cent saying they “have always voted PC.”
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 17, 2019, 08:52:48 pm
Got a problem?
Call Doug
+14168052156

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/05/03/daniel-are-you-still-up-a-surreal-1118-pm-call-from-premier-doug-ford.html
Why, I asked, was it necessary to cut the funding for the planting of 50 million trees? The premier said he learned of that specific cut that morning and he called his “people” to ask, “what that was about.” He then explained that “the forestry industry are the best stewards of the environment.” We discussed legal-aid cuts: “I was told there were less cases, but more lawyers taking fees.” I asked where that fact came from and he said, “it’s what I was told.” The premier told me his cuts “could have been much worse.”

Call Doug! Get a late night callback from the Premier!
All those cuts aren't his fault! That's what they told him to do!  :o


Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on May 18, 2019, 08:01:51 am
I have come to the conclusion that about 20% of the population is mentally challenged, and it doesn't take much to get them to support you. Doug Ford won with 17.7% of the citizens of Ontario voting for him. Too many others have been turned off from participating because of the shyte show that people like him create.

Well someone got out of their bed feeling privileged, superior and elitist before they wrote the above. Hey now only 20%?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 18, 2019, 10:51:04 am

https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2019/05/17/auditor-urges-tories-to-stop-factually-inaccurate-advertising.html
"Factually inaccurate advertising" would mean the same as 'false advertising', I think.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 24, 2019, 09:20:44 am
Credit downgrade for Ontario:
Moody’s downgrades Ontario’s credit rating, citing deficit, revenue cuts under Doug Ford
https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/moodys-downgrades-ontarios-credit-rating-from-aa3-to-aa2-citing-deficit

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: segnosaur on May 24, 2019, 10:34:46 am
Looks like the popularity of the Ford government has collapsed...

From: https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/ford-pc-support-collapses-while-liberal-voters-prefer-tory-as-their-leader/
Premier Ford has a net favourability rating of -53.5%. By comparison, Wynne’s net favourability rating stood at -35.3% on April 30th, 2018....The poll also surveyed Ontarians who they would vote for if an election were held today. Among decided and leaning voters, the Liberals with interim leader John Fraser at the helm have 39.9% (+13.9% since April), while the NDP have 24.2% (-2.4%). The PCs have 22.4% (-10%), while the Greens have 12% (+3%).

I find it quite surprising that conservative support has gone down so quickly. They're less than half way through their mandate, the economy is doing OK (apart from a few problems, but at least some of those problems had external causes). He has made a lot of budget cuts, but I don't think any of the cuts would have had much time to filter down to the level where they affect services. And there have been no big scandals as of yet.

People who voted for the conservatives should have had an idea what they were getting.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on May 25, 2019, 07:51:27 am
Someone is floating John Tory as Liberal leaders.

Now that would be a delicious turn.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 02:17:37 pm
Looks like the popularity of the Ford government has collapsed...

From: https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/ford-pc-support-collapses-while-liberal-voters-prefer-tory-as-their-leader/
Premier Ford has a net favourability rating of -53.5%. By comparison, Wynne’s net favourability rating stood at -35.3% on April 30th, 2018....The poll also surveyed Ontarians who they would vote for if an election were held today. Among decided and leaning voters, the Liberals with interim leader John Fraser at the helm have 39.9% (+13.9% since April), while the NDP have 24.2% (-2.4%). The PCs have 22.4% (-10%), while the Greens have 12% (+3%).

I find it quite surprising that conservative support has gone down so quickly. They're less than half way through their mandate, the economy is doing OK (apart from a few problems, but at least some of those problems had external causes). He has made a lot of budget cuts, but I don't think any of the cuts would have had much time to filter down to the level where they affect services. And there have been no big scandals as of yet.

People who voted for the conservatives should have had an idea what they were getting.

Ford announced total cut of special needs support for Autistic kids, then wondered why Special Olympians booed him ?
People do know the effect the budget cuts will have on them.
I don't think parents of Autistic kids ever expected that ALL of their Special Needs educational support funding would be totally axed. That cut potentially affects kids in every school, every community - urban-rural, Conservative or not Conservative. Not only each kid and their parents, but just might affect the votes of their extended family, friends, neighbours, professional staff ... and Ford was surprised to be booed by Special Olympians?! 
The reactions were immediate to such announcements.

Ford announced cuts to flood prevention and remediation, then stands in an Ottawa flood zone crowing about how he's going to help them?

His answers ... 'I was told there's some waste there.'
'That's what I was told.' ... taking no responsibility, passing the blame to some anonymous others (Who are "they'"?), providing absolutely no intelligent rationale or accounting for cuts.
That ignorance and arrogance is not going over very well with his own voters at all, who expected at least some logical explanation.
'Somebody told me too' just isn't good enough.
He just gets more and more ridiculous each day.

It does not escape the notice of ordinary folks either, that he just handed a pile of dough (tax cuts) to his rich business cronies, at the expense of (eg) Autistic kids.
Pretty bad 'optics'.
I doubt that 'They told me they needed it' is going over well. Lol
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on May 31, 2019, 03:03:17 pm
He's botching it, quickly and in obvious ways.

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on May 31, 2019, 04:00:01 pm
Ford announced cuts to flood prevention and remediation, then stands in an Ottawa flood zone crowing about how he's going to help them?

Did he bring a load of paper towels to help?
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 06:34:18 pm
Did he bring a load of paper towels to help?
Haha haha!
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on May 31, 2019, 06:36:07 pm
People are Finally Noticing Ontario's Spending Was Not 'Out of Control':
Once a particular narrative takes hold in the public mind, no matter how divorced it is from reality, it can be extremely hard to dislodge.
https://raisethehammer.org/article/3646

Contemporary politics in Canada can be crazy-making. A simplistic lie, repeated often and shamelessly enough, starts to take on the air of truth. And once a particular narrative takes hold in the public mind, no matter how divorced it is from reality, it can be extremely hard to dislodge.

Case in point: per capita public revenue and spending in this province were the lowest in Canada during the previous Liberal government, while the per capita debt grew fairly modestly during a severe recession and actually declined for the last three years of that government.

This directly contradicts the prevailing narrative that public spending was "out of control" under the Liberals and that the debt has reached crisis levels. Ontario Premier Doug Ford recently went so far as to claim absurdly that the province is "bankrupt".

Disproving these strategic lies was not difficult.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 09:38:28 am
I can't help but notice that Doug Ford's defenders are surprisingly silent on here. Lol
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 01, 2019, 09:42:49 am
I can't help but notice that Doug Ford's defenders are surprisingly silent on here. Lol

Because he's an idiot.

Classroom sizes are being cut back next year.  Meanwhile, some teachers who are permanent now don't have classes to teach but can't be fired so will be literally doing mostly jack-all next school year while on the payroll.

FYI i'm not a Doug Ford supporter.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Granny on June 01, 2019, 10:47:40 am

Classroom sizes are being cut back next year.  Meanwhile, some teachers who are permanent now don't have classes to teach but can't be fired so will be literally doing mostly jack-all next school year while on the payroll.
They maybe won't have classes, but there is always more than enough work to go around in education.

Over 31,000 kids on the Autistic-spectrum (ASD) just had Special program supports cancelled.
Only 8000+ were currently receiving that educational support (23000+ on the waiting list) because it was already insufficient for the demands.
That educational support included Applied Behaviour Analysis program specialists who have really helped many Autistic students succeed via an intensive 1 to 1 program. And it also included 1-to-1 support of an Educational Assistant where needed.

The government is spinning some devious myths to mislead the general public into believing that it's still providing ASD program funds.
This entire page, for example, may appear to the casual reader to show plenty of supports for ASD students:
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/policyfunding/memos/march2019/dm-supporting-students-with-autism-spectrum-disorder.html
But what it's really saying is that ASD special program funds are now nonexistent, and funding for special programs for ASD kids will now be taken out of the existing regular Special Education budgets, already stretched to the max. supporting the needs of a wide variety of students with learning difficulties (but not ASD).

See, it's confusing even trying to explain how they're trying to confuse you. Lol

But ... Ford and his policy handlers (mostly very young and cutthroat political campaign staff, elevated to positions of great power once elected) may think they can snow the general public ... but there are ASD kids in every community whose parents/family/friends are vocal advocates for them. I've seen very vocal letters/posts of strong opposition to these cuts from people/families/ridings that have been Tory-blue since Canada was born.

If Ford keeps up the dunderhead cuts to kids while padding the pockets of his rich cronies, he may be the one to crack wide open the 150 year Tory-blue hold on much of rural/small-town Ontario.

So ... Go Dougie Go!!!
The more stupidity the better.  Lol

Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: Rue on June 04, 2019, 12:52:11 pm
I support in principle Ford's attempts to address the huge debt Wynne and McGuinty have placed Ontario in. Its never easy to cut services everyone wants but can't afford.

The timing or target of his reforms of course will be unpopular and sometimes questionable. No one likes cuts.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: ?Impact on June 04, 2019, 03:17:38 pm
I support in principle Ford's attempts to address the huge debt Wynne and McGuinty have placed Ontario in.

You mean the huge debt created by the destruction of Ontario Hydro through the 1988 (Progressive Conservative - Mike Harris) Electricity Act, and selling off of good revenue producing assets like the 407ETR at firesale prices by Mike Harris.
Title: Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
Post by: MH on June 04, 2019, 04:04:51 pm
I support in principle Ford's attempts to address the huge debt Wynne and McGuinty have placed Ontario in. Its never easy to cut services everyone wants but can't afford.

The timing or target of his reforms of course will be unpopular and sometimes questionable. No one likes cuts.

Your support is tepid, as it should be. 

I feel that the amount of taxes we pay should be cut slightly, and repurposed to give a much better safety net, and better value.  This discussion of value happens today but it's an arcane process.