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Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: Queefer Sutherland on August 30, 2018, 10:12:45 pm


Title: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 30, 2018, 10:12:45 pm
The fight is on!
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on August 30, 2018, 10:19:21 pm
The fight is on!

I'm putting my money on a slam dunk, even though I never was a big fan of Bush's.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: kimmy on August 30, 2018, 10:33:11 pm
In Trump's favor, none of his decisions have yet been as disastrous as Iraq War v2.0...   and Dubya also presided over the biggest economic disaster since the 1930s.   

And in spite of those two gigantic disasters under Bush's presidency, I'm not sure that Trump won't be worse when all is said and done.   We'll have to wait and see what the long term effects of undermining the western alliance and cozying up to the likes of Putin, Li'l Kim, Ergogan, and Dutarde turn out to be. As well as the long-term effect of Trump's massive deficit increases on the US economy.  He may yet end up making Dubya look smart by comparison.

 -k
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 31, 2018, 07:06:39 am
Can we have a vote for worst GOP death ?  John McCain was kind of big nothing, less than a Gerald Ford and yet he's being honoured beyond belief.

How about underrated presidents ?

Eisenhower, LBJ, Nixon, George Bush Senior.

I would put Obama in there as I would Harper as both had to right the ship during a bad recession.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: SirJohn on August 31, 2018, 12:52:35 pm
Can we have a vote for worst GOP death ?  John McCain was kind of big nothing, less than a Gerald Ford and yet he's being honoured beyond belief.

How about underrated presidents ?

Eisenhower, LBJ, Nixon, George Bush Senior.

I would put Obama in there as I would Harper as both had to right the ship during a bad recession.

It's hard to say how any of these people would have performed in better times - or worse. Put Chretien in as PM instead of Mulroney. You think he'd have racked up all those surpluses? I really do wonder how LBJ would have done in Obama's place. He was a real backroom gutter-fighting wheeler and dealer who knew how to bribe, blackmail and twist arms in congress to get things done. Obama was none of that, but I bet Obama could have done a lot better if the Tea Party had never manifested.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 31, 2018, 05:53:19 pm
Given that Bush directly or indirectly caused the deaths of at least half a million+ people, plus spillover effect in Syria, plus had 9/11 and the great recession happen on his watch, i'll go with Bush.

Trump has mostly been just a terribly unlikeable prick.   Also the Russia thing, but I don't think that compares to half a million dead bodies or a collapsed economy.  I guess people here have short memories.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 31, 2018, 05:55:20 pm
Can we have a vote for worst GOP death ?  John McCain was kind of big nothing, less than a Gerald Ford and yet he's being honoured beyond belief.

Are you kidding?  He seemed like a good American.  And he didn't pardon Richard Nixon.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on August 31, 2018, 06:00:59 pm
Can we have a vote for worst GOP death ?  John McCain was kind of big nothing, less than a Gerald Ford and yet he's being honoured beyond belief.



r.



And he's a "big nothing" why? Maybe because he was shot down and captured? Now where have I heard that before?
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: wilber on August 31, 2018, 09:50:16 pm
Given that Bush directly or indirectly caused the deaths of at least half a million+ people, plus spillover effect in Syria, plus had 9/11 and the great recession happen on his watch, i'll go with Bush.

Trump has mostly been just a terribly unlikeable prick.   Also the Russia thing, but I don't think that compares to half a million dead bodies or a collapsed economy.  I guess people here have short memories.

Early days.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: cybercoma on September 01, 2018, 07:00:37 am
It's less than 2 years into Trump's presidency. Bush had 8.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 01, 2018, 01:31:27 pm
It's less than 2 years into Trump's presidency. Bush had 8.

True, still doesn't make Trump worse though.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on September 01, 2018, 01:44:41 pm
True, still doesn't make Trump worse though.

While I certainly don't try to defend Bush for going into Iraq, Trump has had nothing even close to a 9-11 to deal with and I hate to think what the dolt would do if he, heaven for bid, did have a major issue to deal with. And he of course seems to be good buddies with the likes of Putin and Fat Kim who are well known for imprisoning, torturing, and killing their own people never mind foreigners, so I can see him heading steadily down the road to "worse".
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 02, 2018, 12:01:30 pm
And he's a "big nothing" why? Maybe because he was shot down and captured? Now where have I heard that before?

He was a Senator who loved the spotlight.  He was a failed presidential candidate.

If it weren't for the Trump feud we wouldn't have this kind of coverage.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: cybercoma on September 02, 2018, 12:17:35 pm
He was a Senator who loved the spotlight.  He was a failed presidential candidate.

If it weren't for the Trump feud we wouldn't have this kind of coverage.
The celebration of John McCain is a bizarre one. He should have never been a national hero. He should have never been in Vietnam to begin with. Since he was, you can't ignore the fact that the Vietnam War is a god damned tragedy that lead to the death of many innocent people under some fake notion of freedom. Americans are to celebrate what exactly? Vietnam never posed a threat to America, ever.

As a senator, he made many terrible decisions. Sure he spoke out against Trump recently, but he also voted for some of the worst legislation Congress put through. He also dignified the Tea Party's ideology of ignorance by accepting Palin as a running mate. Politically, he was part of the problem in American politics. He has harmed many people by standing alongside politicians who've made decisions that have and will continue to have literally dire consequences for Americans and even others around the world. In short, **** John McCain and all the celebration around him. My sympathies to his family, but also to the families of people who've died by his hand in congressional votes and military "valor."
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2018, 12:18:54 pm
He was a Senator who loved the spotlight.  He was a failed presidential candidate.

If it weren't for the Trump feud we wouldn't have this kind of coverage.

I suspect being in the spotlight is one factor that attracts most politicians. He did have the good grace to invite both politicians who beat him in his presidential bids to speak at his funeral, although he may have thought that one through and, as Obama pointed out while he spoke, that he would have to say nice things about McCain in front of a national audience, even though they represented different sides of the political fence. Also, Americans do tend to rather zealously support anyone who wore a uniform and could be considered a war here. And yes I agree, it was a good opportunity for a certain portion of the population to thumb their nose at Trump, and they certainly seemed to enjoy and I can understand why.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 02, 2018, 01:24:28 pm
The celebration of John McCain is a bizarre one. He should have never been a national hero. He should have never been in Vietnam to begin with. Since he was, you can't ignore the fact that the Vietnam War is a god damned tragedy that lead to the death of many innocent people under some fake notion of freedom. Americans are to celebrate what exactly? Vietnam never posed a threat to America, ever.

As a senator, he made many terrible decisions. Sure he spoke out against Trump recently, but he also voted for some of the worst legislation Congress put through. He also dignified the Tea Party's ideology of ignorance by accepting Palin as a running mate. Politically, he was part of the problem in American politics. He has harmed many people by standing alongside politicians who've made decisions that have and will continue to have literally dire consequences for Americans and even others around the world. In short, **** John McCain and all the celebration around him. My sympathies to his family, but also to the families of people who've died by his hand in congressional votes and military "valor."

A lot of his votes make him a piece of crap as a politician.  i'm with you.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: kimmy on September 06, 2018, 11:37:27 pm
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

 -inherited the biggest economic collapse since the 1930s, left office with rising employment, rising economic indicators, and falling deficits.

 -biggest scandal was the time he wore a tan suit.

Discuss.


 -k
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2018, 04:59:49 am
Obama and Harper are remarkably similar: generally they were centrists who kept the liberal economic boat afloat during a bad recession. 

Harper reachedout to xenophobes, presumably for political reasons.  Obama was black and withstood a barrage of illegitimate questions about his citizenship.

The times they-are-a-changin' and we won't get a politician until we have somebody young enough to understand how to unify in the new media environment.  Trump was a winner because he knew how to disunify.

I know I overstate the role of media, but as an example - this is what Hitler (and perhaps FDR) did with the new media of the day: radio.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: JMT on September 07, 2018, 09:11:24 am
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

 -inherited the biggest economic collapse since the 1930s, left office with rising employment, rising economic indicators, and falling deficits.

 -biggest scandal was the time he wore a tan suit.

Discuss.


 -k

Well, he did start Libya.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2018, 09:33:02 am
Also I have knowledgeable centrist friends who say he botched Syria by making idle threats.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: ?Impact on September 07, 2018, 11:41:47 am
The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.

What about Libya?

Yes, Obama did significantly lower the number of American soldiers in war zones but there was a lot of drone and special forces operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: SirJohn on September 07, 2018, 12:03:23 pm
Obama and Harper are remarkably similar: generally they were centrists who kept the liberal economic boat afloat during a bad recession. 

Harper reachedout to xenophobes, presumably for political reasons.

By increasing immigration, you mean?
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: SirJohn on September 07, 2018, 12:04:46 pm
Well, he did start Libya.

As I recall it Libya was in the midst of a bloody civil war during 'arab spring' and all the lefties were bemoaning the violence and the fate of children and demanding the West do something to stop it.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2018, 10:12:58 pm
By increasing immigration, you mean?

No.  Denying hospital services to refugees ... which cost almost nothing.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 10, 2018, 02:10:48 pm
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The Obama presidency:

 -zero wars started.
What about Libya?
Libya's big problems may have started under Obama, but I'm not really sure its accurate to say Obama "started" the war.

The conflict largely began as internal protests, and it wasn't until days/weeks after actual fighting broke out that NATO and the U.S.  got involved.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 10, 2018, 02:22:44 pm
... and Dubya also presided over the biggest economic disaster since the 1930s. 
It is true... the economic meltdown started under Bush's watch. But, in his defense, some of the factors that contributed to the meltdown (such as financial deregulation) were policies that other presidents (including Clinton) engaged in.

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And in spite of those two gigantic disasters under Bush's presidency, I'm not sure that Trump won't be worse when all is said and done.   We'll have to wait and see what the long term effects of undermining the western alliance and cozying up to the likes of Putin, Li'l Kim, Ergogan, and Dutarde turn out to be. As well as the long-term effect of Trump's massive deficit increases on the US economy.  He may yet end up making Dubya look smart by comparison.
Yup. The democrats learned at least some lessons from the 2007/2008 meltdown... having SOME financial regulations is a good thing. Trump and the republicans seem to have ignored that message.

And not only is there a huge debt increase under Trump, the current tax cuts are expected to expire for middle class workers in the future (while the wealthy will continue to see less tax). That will cause a big hit to the economy. Also, infrastructure is crumbling, and the U.S. failure to invest in "green technologies" mean that it may be left behind by other countries as they shift away from fossil fuel.

The problem is, the worst problems may actually happen years after Trump has left office, so that some other president gets blamed for Trump's bad policies.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: wilber on September 10, 2018, 02:37:02 pm
I think what makes Trump worse is the threat he poses to democratic institutions and their safeguards. He deliberately tries to undermine those institutions which are in place to restrict the excess of people just like him. Constitution, Congress, courts and free press. Will he be a wake up call to the complacent or will he be the future?
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on September 10, 2018, 02:55:04 pm
I think what makes Trump worse is the threat he poses to democratic institutions and their safeguards. He deliberately tries to undermine those institutions which are in place to restrict the excess of people just like him. Constitution, Congress, courts and free press. Will he be a wake up call to the complacent or will he be the future?

I would agree. He attempts to interpret the constitution in such a was as to assume his office puts him above the rule of law, and his comments about "fake news" and "the enemy of the people" have resulted in various outbreaks of violence against press people. I hope to hell the people who are at least somewhat educated in the US get off their lazy asses and start turning out at the polls, bo th in November and in 2020. Otherwise he will continue along his processes that another well known "leader" promoted back in 1939.   
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2018, 05:46:27 pm
What about Libya?
Libya's big problems may have started under Obama, but I'm not really sure its accurate to say Obama "started" the war.

The conflict largely began as internal protests, and it wasn't until days/weeks after actual fighting broke out that NATO and the U.S.  got involved.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/13/obama-admits-that-his-handling-of-the-libya-war-was-his-worst-mistake-but-not-that-it-was-unconstitutional/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3b4dc8908dd4

The US-led NATO assassinated Gaddafi largely for oil interests.  The war has many similarities to Iraq, including the aftermath left by a power vacuum.  At least Bush went to Congress for his stupid war, Obama's war was unconstitutional.  Obama was also pretty weak standing up to Putin. But overall, a much better POTUS than Trump & Bush.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 11, 2018, 12:42:24 pm
The US-led NATO assassinated Gaddafi largely for oil interests.
Uhh... no, they didn't.

Demonstrations began. Things escalated. A civil war broke out. Gaddafi and the government were being naughty (using aircraft and snipers to target demonstrators.). Rebels didn't like that. The choice that NATO had was either get involved to prevent more bloodshed or allow the fighting to continue.

There is no need to assign responsibility to "oil interests". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Quote
The war has many similarities to Iraq, including the aftermath left by a power vacuum.
The war also had some key differences... most importantly, the Libyan war was initiated largely by internal politics and protests that escalated, whereas the Iraq was largely initiated by external factors (namely the U.S. and certain allies).

Quote
At least Bush went to Congress for his stupid war, Obama's war was unconstitutional.
That is... fuzzy to say the least. The constitution specifies that congress has the ability to "declare war", but that the president is head of the military (and the president does need the authority to deploy forces on short notice to handle emergencies, outside of  formal wars.)

The line between a "war" and a simple military deployment is not always clear cut and hasn't really been tested in the courts.
Quote
Obama was also pretty weak standing up to Putin.
Maybe, maybe not. (Not sure if you're referring to Russian meddling in the election or just foreign policy in general.)

About election interference, there were a lot of factors that had to be juggled:
- As president, he would have to ensure his activities didn't unfairly influence the election. Having the FBI/CIA/etc. point out that "Russia helped Trump" in big, bold letters might be seen as the government overreach.

- Obama did try to get the Republicans to put together a bipartisan joint response, but McConnell (you know, the REPUBLICAN senate leader) vetoed the idea.

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/21/587614043/fact-check-why-didnt-obama-stop-russia-s-election-interference-in-2016
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: wilber on September 11, 2018, 12:54:25 pm
Quote
That is... fuzzy to say the least. The constitution specifies that congress has the ability to "declare war", but that the president is head of the military (and the president does need the authority to deploy forces on short notice to handle emergencies, outside of  formal wars.)

The line between a "war" and a simple military deployment is not always clear cut and hasn't really been tested in the courts.

The US hasn't formally declared war on anyone since 1942.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: ?Impact on September 11, 2018, 03:54:33 pm
b.t.w. I haven't answered the poll because it is misleading. There were two other Presidents in the 21st century that are not included.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 11, 2018, 04:16:57 pm
The US hasn't formally declared war on anyone since 1942.
True. And due to the current geopolitical situation and military technology, its possible that no country will ever formerly declare war again. (Not that war won't happen, just that it won't be a formal "Here's a document we are officially signing saying that we're at war". But it will be more a case of "There are innocent people being hurt... lets bomb the people a couple of times and go away." Or "nukes are incoming... need to respond".)

But that doesn't change the issue: without a formal declaration of war via congress, at what point does a president's authority to send troops into dangerous situations cross the line from a valid deployment of the military to an unconstitutional "war". There is no easy answer (and it may even descend into partisanship... "its constitutional if its my guy in the white house".) Obama (at least at the time) felt that the use of military forces in Libya was constitutional. Others didn't.  Until there is some sort of constitutional change and/or court ruling, nobody knows who is right or where the line is drawn.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 11, 2018, 04:24:27 pm
b.t.w. I haven't answered the poll because it is misleading. There were two other Presidents in the 21st century that are not included.
True, the poll could have included both Obama and Bill Clinton. But, I think that most posters here recognize that even with their faults neither of those presidents would come anywhere near being "worst".

It should also be pointed out that in a recent survey of historians, both Trump and Bush landed in the bottom half of the list of greatest presidents (Trump was dead last), whereas Obama and Clinton were in the top half of the list. (And lest you think their list is biased towards Democrats, Reagan scored better than Clinton and Bush Sr. was in the top half of the rankings.)

http://time.com/5165686/donald-trump-last-place-presidential-greatness/
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2018, 04:43:36 pm
Hard to believe Trump, even today is sitting on his fat ass bragging about his handling of the storm that hit Puerto Rico a year ago, which of course we all know was a **** show, while Florence is bearing down on the east coast. Maybe since it is supposed to hit some time Thursday he'll stop on his way home from Mara Lago after a weekend of gulf and fling out a few rolls of paper towels to the victims. 
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2018, 04:45:08 pm
Demonstrations began. Things escalated. A civil war broke out. Gaddafi and the government were being naughty (using aircraft and snipers to target demonstrators.). Rebels didn't like that. The choice that NATO had was either get involved to prevent more bloodshed or allow the fighting to continue.

There is no need to assign responsibility to "oil interests". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Yes the kind, humanitarian NATO.  How many times has NATO intervened in such a military capacity in sub saharan african civil wars, of which there's been many? Did they give a crap about Rwanda? Did NATO intervene during the Second Congo War that led to 3 to 5 million civilian deaths in central Africa?

Libya has decent oil reserves, oil makes up 95% of its exports and 60% of its GDP. Gaddafi didn't play ball with the west in terms of access to Libyan oil, plus he fooling around gold and silver resources and french currency, so they helped bring about regime change.  Iraq 2.0.  It was realpolitik and nothing else.  "Responsibility to Protect" was a used as a BS cover for supporting regime change.

https://www.thenation.com/article/obamas-nato-war-oil-libya/

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/

https://news.vice.com/article/libyan-oil-gold-and-qaddafi-the-strange-email-sidney-blumenthal-sent-hillary-clinton-in-2011

Quote
The war also had some key differences... most importantly, the Libyan war was initiated largely by internal politics and protests that escalated, whereas the Iraq was largely initiated by external factors (namely the U.S. and certain allies).

Yes agreed, it wasn't exactly the same.

Quote
Maybe, maybe not. (Not sure if you're referring to Russian meddling in the election or just foreign policy in general.)

I mean with Russia in general.  Crimea is one example.  Putin played Obama and Trump for fools.  I can't think of a more cunning leader in international relations than Putin.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2018, 04:46:07 pm
b.t.w. I haven't answered the poll because it is misleading. There were two other Presidents in the 21st century that are not included.

That's why the question is:  Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: wilber on September 11, 2018, 05:02:41 pm
True. And due to the current geopolitical situation and military technology, its possible that no country will ever formerly declare war again. (Not that war won't happen, just that it won't be a formal "Here's a document we are officially signing saying that we're at war". But it will be more a case of "There are innocent people being hurt... lets bomb the people a couple of times and go away." Or "nukes are incoming... need to respond".)

But that doesn't change the issue: without a formal declaration of war via congress, at what point does a president's authority to send troops into dangerous situations cross the line from a valid deployment of the military to an unconstitutional "war". There is no easy answer (and it may even descend into partisanship... "its constitutional if its my guy in the white house".) Obama (at least at the time) felt that the use of military forces in Libya was constitutional. Others didn't.  Until there is some sort of constitutional change and/or court ruling, nobody knows who is right or where the line is drawn.

Who knows, 17 years in Vietnam didn't do it, 17 years and counting in Afghanistan hasn't done it. It will probably take an actual attack on US soil by a foreign military, just like the last time.
Title: Re: Worst GOP POTUS of the 21st Century?
Post by: segnosaur on September 12, 2018, 12:36:28 pm
Quote
Demonstrations began. Things escalated. A civil war broke out. Gaddafi and the government were being naughty (using aircraft and snipers to target demonstrators.). Rebels didn't like that. The choice that NATO had was either get involved to prevent more bloodshed or allow the fighting to continue.

There is no need to assign responsibility to "oil interests". Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Yes the kind, humanitarian NATO.  How many times has NATO intervened in such a military capacity in sub saharan african civil wars, of which there's been many? Did they give a crap about Rwanda? Did NATO intervene during the Second Congo War that led to 3 to 5 million civilian deaths in central Africa?
No, but the U.S. did send troops to try to bring stability to Ethiopia (not a big oil supplier there). And they were also involved in military action in Kosovo (again not a big oil producer).

Now, you could say that the U.S. has been inconsistent. But the actions by the U.S. in each case needs to be judged according to the geopolitical situation at the time. A change in the presidency or congress, the willingness of allies to participate, the relationship between the targeted government and the U.S., even media attention are all relevant. It not as simple as "Oil=war, No oil=no war".

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I mean with Russia in general.  Crimea is one example.  Putin played Obama and Trump for fools.  I can't think of a more cunning leader in international relations than Putin.
So, they kicked Russia out of the G8 and imposed sanctions.
Given the fact that Crimea was geographically located near Russia, and the U.S. had no real military presence in the area, I'm not really sure what Obama could have done differently. Send in military forces? That  could end up in a shooting war with Russia.