Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:06:13 am


Title: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:06:13 am
The city of Victoria BC has made the decision to get rid of the statue of Sir John A MacDonald from in front of city hall citing his role in residential schools as a major reason.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 11:10:06 am
Argus is not amused.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 10, 2018, 11:20:17 am
Argus is not amused.

Neither am I really. BC would now be a US state if it hadn't been for MacDonald. Despite his faults, he is the closest thing Canada has to being a father of this country.
He is also being made the lighting rod for all the abuses that occurred under the residential school program long after he was dead.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 10, 2018, 11:31:54 am
Dumb decision. No country's founders have unblemished records when judged by today's standards, but Canada's founders created an exemplary society that enabled the development of today's standards.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:38:22 am
MacDonald was the architect of the residential school system, even though Langevin did take a hit for it when they scraped his name off the building in Ottawa. According to the radio discussion I heard this am, the plan is to put the statue in storage for now perhaps to be displayed elsewhere at a later date so as not to try to whitewash history, and a plaque be placed in the same area to describe his role as PM and his history of relations with indigenous people. 
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 10, 2018, 11:43:25 am
MacDonald was the architect of the residential school system, even though Langevin did take a hit for it when they scraped his name off the building in Ottawa. According to the radio discussion I heard this am, the plan is to put the statue in storage for now perhaps to be displayed elsewhere at a later date so as not to try to whitewash history, and a plaque be placed in the same area to describe his role as PM and his history of relations with indigenous people.


This is a plan to whitewash history or they would just put a plaque along with the statue.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 11:45:57 am
This is a plan to whitewash history

Statues only tell the history of pigeon migrations.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 11:46:07 am
I can't think of a single thing this does to help natives. The idiot do-gooder progressives at city hall will all pat themselves on the back at how noble and inclusive they're being. The natives will high-five each other at having stuck it to the 'settlers', and that will be that.

Except, of course, for engendering further resentment towards natives on the part of a lot of those 'settlers'. That's basically the only thing which this does which will have a lasting effect. Every time stupid **** like, or that Cornwallis statue in Halifax or those moron natives with their protests on parliament hill during Canada day takes place a few more people think that maybe those far right and white power groups are making more sense than they once thought. Certainly there seems a good deal less sympathy for natives today among ordinary people than there was ten years or so ago. Progressives are still willing to lick native boots, of course, as this vote shows, but most people feel differently.


Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:50:17 am
Statues only tell the history of pigeon migrations.

And that's when the REAL whitewashing has to get done.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 10, 2018, 11:52:34 am
What about if we had a dialogue about keeping it in return for doing something truly important for first Nations people?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 10, 2018, 11:53:00 am
Except, of course, for engendering further resentment towards natives on the part of a lot of those 'settlers'. That's basically the only thing which this does which will have a lasting effect. Every time stupid **** like, or that Cornwallis statue in Halifax or those moron natives with their protests on parliament hill during Canada day takes place a few more people think that maybe those far right and white power groups are making more sense than they once thought. Certainly there seems a good deal less sympathy for natives today among ordinary people than there was ten years or so ago. Progressives are still willing to lick native boots, of course, as this vote shows, but most people feel differently.
While I agree the statue should stay, it's more complicated than your go-to rant about "progressives/the Left" and how you're not an extremist but White Power groups make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:56:57 am
I can't think of a single thing this does to help natives. The idiot do-gooder progressives at city hall will all pat themselves on the back at how noble and inclusive they're being. The natives will high-five each other at having stuck it to the 'settlers', and that will be that.

Except, of course, for engendering further resentment towards natives on the part of a lot of those 'settlers'. That's basically the only thing which this does which will have a lasting effect. Every time stupid **** like, or that Cornwallis statue in Halifax or those moron natives with their protests on parliament hill during Canada day takes place a few more people think that maybe those far right and white power groups are making more sense than they once thought. Certainly there seems a good deal less sympathy for natives today among ordinary people than there was ten years or so ago. Progressives are still willing to lick native boots, of course, as this vote shows, but most people feel differently.

And there you go again, presuming to speak for "most people".
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 11:58:59 am
While I agree the statue should stay, it's more complicated than your go-to rant about "progressives/the Left" and how you're not an extremist but White Power groups make a lot of sense.

The only lasting consequence of this is as I said. It will **** a lot of people off, will diminish their sympathy for native and native causes, and play into the hands of the Trumps of the world.

As for my 'go to' rant, do you imagine it was a bunch of conservatives on city council that voted on this? Do you imagine it was conservative activists proposing it?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 11:59:38 am
What about if we had a dialogue about keeping it in return for doing something truly important for first Nations people?

That I think would be a sensible approach. And as I pointed out they are not planning to ditch the statue totally, but to perhaps to find a better way to display it, with regard to the dark parts of the history.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 12:01:16 pm
It will **** a lot of people off, will diminish their sympathy for native and native causes

Those people were already pissed off and had no sympathy to begin with.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 12:07:29 pm
The only lasting consequence of this is as I said. It will **** a lot of people off, will diminish their sympathy for native and native causes, and play into the hands of the Trumps of the world.

As for my 'go to' rant, do you imagine it was a bunch of conservatives on city council that voted on this? Do you imagine it was conservative activists proposing it?

How the hell would this play into the hands of the Trump's of the world? If anyone is going to be pissed off it would be them. Trump probably would have created something that would have made residential school look like Sunday School had he have had the opportunity in those years.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 12:16:36 pm
What about if we had a dialogue about keeping it in return for doing something truly important for first Nations people?

Why the **** should we have to bribe some native activists in order to keep a statue to the founder of the nation?

Everyone knows the problems with natives are the damned reserves. They're designed for an eighteenth century people and most have no economic reason to exist. That gives their people nothing to do but sit around drink, fornicate, get into fights and trouble, and cash their monthly cheques. Nothing else matters until this is addressed.

As for history. I'm not into apologizing or making reparations for something someone did before I or even my ancestors were even here. The natives were overwhelmed by a more powerful group of newcomers like just just about every other people on the planet at one time or another. Get over it. They weren't treated nearly as badly as so many of those other peoples, who were annihilated, and no longer exist. Which, by the way, was how they treated their opponents when they conquered them.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 12:20:12 pm
How the hell would this play into the hands of the Trump's of the world?

Let's use the NFL for an example. This stupidass kneeling business has been pissing off the fans since it started. NFL attendance is down, as is viewership and merchandise sales, and their own polls say this is a major factor. Trump did not cause the anger at the kneeling but he's taking advantage of it to fan that anger and win over people who are pissed off at what they see as an unpatriotic attack. Trump is a divider, but he mostly takes advantages of schisms which were created by others. This is something that divides people along racial lines and he's happy to take advantage of that.

In terms of the Sir John A statue and other such nonsense, it pisses of patriots. Progressives sneer at patriotism, but a lot of people feel it nonetheless, despite all people like Trudeau tell them about what a shitty, horrible people we have always been up until his noble glittering ass came on the scene.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 10, 2018, 12:33:49 pm
Neither am I really. BC would now be a US state if it hadn't been for MacDonald. Despite his faults, he is the closest thing Canada has to being a father of this country.
He is also being made the lighting rod for all the abuses that occurred under the residential school program long after he was dead.

Sir John A is being faulted for being a typical North American circa 1800's.  In 100 years people will tear down statues of Terry Fox because he used plastic bags at the grocery store.

These people are intent on slowing destroying western civilization because white people did what we realize now in hindsight was some really bad ****.  My great-great-great granddaddy Bartholomew probably slapped his wife for steering the ox too slowly, he's still a part of my DNA & i'm not going to take down his photo for it.

White westerners did and do some terrible stuff.  COMPARED TO WHO!??!?!?  Imperial China? Africans who would raid rival tribes, capture their men & **** their women & sell them to whitey for guns to go catch more slaves with?  Natives used to scalp victims, **** women and children, and **** in the river.  PC POLICE FML.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 12:43:04 pm
Sir John A is being faulted for being a typical North American circa 1800's.  In 100 years people will tear down statues of Terry Fox because he used plastic bags at the grocery store.

These people are intent on slowing destroying western civilization because white people did what we realize now in hindsight was some really bad ****.  My great-great-great granddaddy Bartholomew probably slapped his wife for steering the ox too slowly, he's still a part of my DNA & i'm not going to take down his photo for it.

White westerners did and do some terrible stuff.  COMPARED TO WHO!??!?!?  Imperial China? Africans who would raid rival tribes, capture their men & **** their women & sell them to whitey for guns to go catch more slaves with?  Natives used to scalp victims, **** women and children, and **** in the river.  PC POLICE FML.

So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 10, 2018, 12:51:29 pm
Whitey stole native land and took some kids from their parents and accidentally brought disease that killed a bunch.  Big oops.  Whitey also brought them modern medicine, stable food supply, reading and writing, and delicious chicken mcnuggets. 

Give them more land by squaring their land claims out, give them another wad of cash, ensure equitable services if they so want, then call it square so we can have reconciliation and everyone can STFU and move on.  Then leave them alone, if they want to live in the middle of Nunavut with a subsistence economy, freedom to you, just don't come whining again that you're still poor.

Everyone crying about statues who gives a testicle, go get a job feed your damn kids.  Mark Manson says you only have so many fucks to give, use them wisely.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 12:57:32 pm
Whitey stole native land and took some kids from their parents and accidentally brought disease that killed a bunch.  Big oops.  Whitey also brought them modern medicine, stable food supply, reading and writing, and delicious chicken mcnuggets. 

Give them more land by squaring their land claims out, give them another wad of cash, ensure equitable services if they so want, then call it square so we can have reconciliation and everyone can STFU and move on.  Then leave them alone, if they want to live in the middle of Nunavut with a subsistence economy, freedom to you, just don't come whining again that you're still poor.

Everyone crying about statues who gives a testicle, go get a job feed your damn kids.  Mark Manson says who only have so many fucks to give, use them wisely.

It's astonishing how quickly you try to gloss over your initial statement. Oh well, whatever works for ya.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 01:30:36 pm
Give them more land by squaring their land claims out

Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established. It would be hard to argue for natural resources that they didn't use like oil and mines, but the major port cities are a given.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: the_squid on August 10, 2018, 01:31:25 pm
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 10, 2018, 01:32:42 pm
As for my 'go to' rant, do you imagine it was a bunch of conservatives on city council that voted on this? Do you imagine it was conservative activists proposing it?
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 01:32:48 pm
Let's use the NFL for an example. This stupidass kneeling business has been pissing off the fans since it started. NFL attendance is down, as is viewership and merchandise sales, and their own polls say this is a major factor. Trump did not cause the anger at the kneeling but he's taking advantage of it to fan that anger and win over people who are pissed off at what they see as an unpatriotic attack. Trump is a divider, but he mostly takes advantages of schisms which were created by others. This is something that divides people along racial lines and he's happy to take advantage of that.

In terms of the Sir John A statue and other such nonsense, it pisses of patriots. Progressives sneer at patriotism, but a lot of people feel it nonetheless, despite all people like Trudeau tell them about what a shitty, horrible people we have always been up until his noble glittering ass came on the scene.

Those "stupidassess" knelt to bring attention to racial discrimination, especially by police. You seem to think merchandise sales is a more important issue.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 10, 2018, 02:24:22 pm
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?

The lone dissenter did so because there had been no public consultation and he felt there should be.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 10, 2018, 02:27:53 pm
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.

Don't you believe it. The statue is gone for good. It will sit in storage until people forget about it.

We are just trading someone's truth for someone else's truth when in fact both are true. You don't acknowledge flaws by making them disappear.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: the_squid on August 10, 2018, 02:46:01 pm
Don't you believe it. The statue is gone for good. It will sit in storage until people forget about it.

Not at all.  You're just being silly.

Quote
After the statue is removed the city says it will store it until it finds an appropriate way to give Macdonald's legacy context from a perspective of reconciliation.  https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/debate-flares-as-victoria-votes-to-remove-macdonald-statue-from-city-hall-1.4047105

It'll be in the museum or some such.   Statues are monuments, not museums.  Statues don't teach history.

Quote
We are just trading someone's truth for someone else's truth when in fact both are true. You don't acknowledge flaws by making them disappear.

Not at all.  This guy says it well:

Quote
https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/monuments-arent-museums-and-history-suffers-when-we-forget-that/

Leave aside, for the moment, the absurdity of thinking that no one would remember history or historical figures were it not for statues. Instead, understand that the monument’s very essence is not about recording history in the first place: they’re designed to shape our perceptions of history in very particular ways and for very particular purposes,  ranging from glorifying a political leader or set of ideologies, to providing future generations examples to emulate. Rather than recording history, we should think of monuments as themselves being part of history—and frequently a very problematic and distorted part of history, at that.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 10, 2018, 03:17:33 pm
Not at all.  You're just being silly.

It'll be in the museum or some such.   Statues are monuments, not museums.  Statues don't teach history.

Not at all.  This guy says it well:

Actually statues do teach history. If they are any good, they show what someone looked like and are incentive to find out more about that person. They actually encourage the kind of discussion we are having about MacDonald right now, not keeping it out of sight, out of mind.

This isn't a statue glorifying a guy on a rampant charger, just a guy in a suit standing on the street.

Where is the city going to put this statue. They don't want people to see it, that's why they are taking it down. So where can they put it that no one will. It's gone unless they get someone else to take and display it.

One of the things I like about European cities is the history that is on public display and that includes statues of a lot of people with chequered pasts. They are there because they are an integral part of that country's history and what it became today, good and bad.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 03:23:06 pm
And from what I have gathered with regard to what's happening in Victoria is they want to address the bad as well as the good.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 03:57:47 pm
Actually statues do teach history.

At least they gave me the opportunity to talk to Debbie in 7th grade on our class trip to Quebec city. I took her to the school dance that year. I remember Debbie, but damn if I could tell you what statue we had to look at and write down answers about.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 04:01:19 pm
So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?

The statue is in recognition of the great things he accomplished.
Certainly he was a flawed men. All men are. But his feelings towards natives were actually a hell of a lot better than the opposition liberal leader of the time, who basically wanted them all dead.

Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 04:02:56 pm
Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established.

If those are the stakes then we'll just have to start up the war again. Who do you think will win?

Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 04:03:54 pm
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.

When do we include the unsavoury parts of native history? You know, like the raping, torture, and genocide they committed on other tribes?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 04:04:29 pm
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?

In BC? Wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 04:05:29 pm
Those "stupidassess" knelt to bring attention to racial discrimination, especially by police. You seem to think merchandise sales is a more important issue.

Blacks have it better in the US today than at any time in history. Far, FAR better. The 'racial discrimination' they're protesting is imaginary.

Don't want to get shot by the cops? Don't be a **** criminal and resist arrest.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 10, 2018, 04:13:47 pm
Blacks have it better in the US today than at any time in history. Far, FAR better. The 'racial discrimination' they're protesting is imaginary.

Don't want to get shot by the cops? Don't be a **** criminal and resist arrest.

Um no. Don't want to be shot by cops, don't be black.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 10, 2018, 04:29:51 pm
But his feelings towards natives were actually a hell of a lot better than the opposition liberal leader of the time, who basically wanted them all dead.

What specific acts (like creating the residential school system) did Alexander Mackenzie do? I'm not sure if there is a statue of him in Victoria, especially one on city property, but if so maybe you should make your case.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 06:18:36 pm
What specific acts (like creating the residential school system) did Alexander Mackenzie do? I'm not sure if there is a statue of him in Victoria, especially one on city property, but if so maybe you should make your case.

Well, he wound up bringing in the Indian Act as PM.
But while he was opposition leader he railed against the amount of money McDonald was spending on Indians. McDonald wanted to educate Indians, to teach them to be civilized. He sent farmers out to instruct them in farming techniques, for example. He insisted both boys and girls attend school. He wanted to make the Indians a part of the Canada he was building. Mackenzie thought of them as nothing but savages and that it was a waste of time and money trying to civilize them.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 06:23:44 pm
Um no. Don't want to be shot by cops, don't be black.

Really? Lots of completely innocent Black pepole being gunned down by police at random, are there? Got some examples?

Because the three worst examples of unjustified police shootings I can think of all were white people shot by police. None was a criminal. None were armed or resisting arrest or refusing orders. One was in her pajamas, for Gods sakes. Two were in shorts and T-shirts and confronted by groups of heavily armed SWAT protected behind barricades or walls, the suspect out in the open, and shot because a cop felt their hand might have moved somewhere in the general direction of their hip or something. One was the infamous "swatting' incident, and the other was a guy shot while crawling on all fours and crying and begging the cops not to shoot him.

There is a definite problem with police training and how the mindset is created within them of being ready to be violently attacked at any second, and to be ready to respond with their guns. They're poorly trained in fighting and disarming anyone with a weapon, and far too ready to shoot. But that applies to anyone they encounter. They just encounter more Black criminals proportionate to the numbers of Blacks in the population because Blacks are far more likely to be involved in violent crime.


Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 11, 2018, 02:08:12 am
So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?

I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 11, 2018, 02:19:47 am
I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.

I think in this hi-tech era you should be able to call up the bank and tell 'em you need a thousand bucks and I'll be over there in 20 minutes and they have the paper and can print whatever picture you want on it. I'd have me sittin' in a Caddy convertible with a couple of hot babes waving in the wind.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 11, 2018, 03:10:40 am
Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established. It would be hard to argue for natural resources that they didn't use like oil and mines, but the major port cities are a given.

Well this is an interesting narrative.  Experts estimate the total aboriginal population in the total geographical area of what is now know as Canada just prior to Columbus to be just under 1 million people, which is less than the aboriginal population today in Canada, then the overwhelming majority who died post-Colombus/Cabot were by disease.  Jacques Cartier estimated the aboriginal village Hochelaga he encountered in Montreal had about 1000 people.  But they deserve the whole island?  I say give them what they had, or a reasonably equal alternative location if there's a subdevelopment sitting on it.

Natives never saw nor stepped foot on nor even knew existed 99.999% of Canada's vast expanse.  They didn't even have horses or any domesticated  land transport until Europeans brought them.  But this is "their land".  It's all theirs.  They didn't even believe in land ownership, but it belongs to them.  A bunch of scattered small villages and clans here and there across a vast continent can claim it all theirs.  There were no borders or such thing as "Canada" or "US" before they came, just a bunch of wilderness and unaffiliated native groups/alliances fighting over the small bits of territory they knew existed.  Native groups routinely attacked each other, raped & pillaged, & stole each other's land & resources, but someone else does it to them & well omg i'm a victim.  They would have done the same or worse to us if they had the guns, but whitey was so evil.  They certainly don't "own" nor have any rightful claim to any major waterways, and they can still use them all today if they want to just like everyone else.  Natives don't even need a passport to cross into the USA just a status card, because the idea is "it's all their land and they don't recognize borders", what a bunch of BS.  There are different narratives here, but usually only 1 or 2 are considered so with most the truth is incomplete, I'm sure for myself as well.

Let's face it, we don't have to give them anything back, like every other invading army in the history of human civilization, but we do and should because we're compassionate and did make some mistakes and did steal some land & they suffer/ed.  Indian war paint imagery should be taken down from public spaces and not celebrated because people who wore it killed & raped & scalped some of my European ancestors blah blah like this is the PC mentality.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 11, 2018, 03:25:47 am
It's astonishing how quickly you try to gloss over your initial statement. Oh well, whatever works for ya.

George Washington owned over 100 slaves when he died.  Where does it stop?  Rename the capital Spike Lee, D.C.?

Africans came out of the jungle with spears & their boobies hanging out, shat and pissed in the river, and sacrificed babies to the voodoo gods etc, so whitey called them savage animals with inferior brains/genes & worked them like cattle.  Probably logical to most people given what they knew at the time.  We now know better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIuDeoOERe0
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 11, 2018, 08:57:35 am
I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.

That is what we ARE doing with these statues. MacDonald isn't up there because he was PM but because he built Canada. Most people thought the idea was ridiculous and such a nation could never exist or never last. MacDonald managed to deftly manoeuvre it into place and keep it going during its infancy. That is what we recognize when putting up a statue to him.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 11, 2018, 09:43:55 am
That is what we ARE doing with these statues. MacDonald isn't up there because he was PM but because he built Canada. Most people thought the idea was ridiculous and such a nation could never exist or never last. MacDonald managed to deftly manoeuvre it into place and keep it going during its infancy. That is what we recognize when putting up a statue to him.

And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 11, 2018, 09:55:09 am
And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.

McDonald's feelings about natives being savages were echoed by about 99.99% of the population of Europe at the time. He wanted to civilize and educate them, to bring them into the towns and cities to live as Canadians. That made him a progressive at that time. As for schooling, the standard at that time for people of McDonald's generation was boarding school. He went to one himself.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 12, 2018, 04:15:10 am
And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.

He's a perfect symbol of Canada and its long history, encapsulated in one man, the good the bad, always a work in progress.

Colonial-era Canada also had slavery until the 1800's, the vast majority being aboriginals holding other aboriginals as slaves as they had done for millennia.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 12, 2018, 02:29:33 pm
Why the **** should we have to bribe some native activists in order to keep a statue to the founder of the nation?

I would prefer to see the division exposed in this issue as: symbolic vs. substantial.

Exchange a symbolic gesture for a symbolic one.

Quote
Everyone knows the problems with natives are the damned reserves.


If everyone knew that then we'd be solving it as such...

 
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 04:48:44 pm
I would prefer to see the division exposed in this issue as: symbolic vs. substantial.

Exchange a symbolic gesture for a symbolic one.

I don't see it helps at all. Instead they'll just come after more 'symbols' of white oppression.
 
Quote
If everyone knew that then we'd be solving it as such...

Politicians wouldn't unless they could think of a quick, cheap solution that didn't have a lot of political danger. Native chiefs wouldn't unless they could think of a way to preserve their power and fat paycheques. And nobody else can. Ironically, MacDonald is being attacked for getting it right. He wanted to educate natives and bring them into the Canadian mainstream rather than leaving them out in the boonies as 'savages'.



Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 12, 2018, 04:59:04 pm
I don't see it helps at all. Instead they'll just come after more 'symbols' of white oppression.

The idea is that it would be a negotiation.
 
Quote
Politicians wouldn't unless they could think of a quick, cheap solution that didn't have a lot of political danger.

If the idea caught on outside the halls of politics somebody would have to look at it.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 06:13:39 pm
The idea is that it would be a negotiation.

So far the negotiation has us sacrificing symbols of our past history while hanging our heads in guilt and shame and them then demanding further sacrifices without a single acknowledgement of anything done for them by society or owed by them to society.

Quote
If the idea caught on outside the halls of politics somebody would have to look at it.

Why? Everyone knows the problem is that most of the reserves are not economically self-sustaining and provide no livelihoods for their residents. They've known this for a very long time. It's not like I'm the genius who suddenly realized it.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 12, 2018, 06:24:23 pm
So far the negotiation has us sacrificing symbols of our past history while hanging our heads in guilt and shame and them then demanding further sacrifices without a single acknowledgement of anything done for them by society or owed by them to society.

Ok.

Quote
Why? Everyone knows the problem is that most of the reserves are not economically self-sustaining and provide no livelihoods for their residents. They've known this for a very long time. It's not like I'm the genius who suddenly realized it.

Do you want to fix it ?  Breaking the logjam needs some kind of compromise, clearly.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 07:14:59 pm
Do you want to fix it ?  Breaking the logjam needs some kind of compromise, clearly.

Obviously I want to fix it. The current situation is barely tolerable and is only going to get worse as their numbers increase. The problem is you need to have two sides negotiating, and that's not going to happen. The chiefs have a fairly obvious conflict of interest in any negotiation in that they're the only people who prosper and thrive under the current system. So who do you negotiate with?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 12, 2018, 07:19:20 pm
So who do you negotiate with?

The chiefs, I guess.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 12, 2018, 07:20:18 pm
Well I will agree that removing the statue is not going to remove the black mark on our history.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 13, 2018, 11:25:13 am
The chiefs, I guess.

And under what scenario is there any profit for these chiefs in eliminating reservations and drawing natives into the mainstream? Some of them are making more than provincial premiers or the prime minister and able to spend the reserve's money however they want with virtually no oversight. Why would they want that changed?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 13, 2018, 07:50:24 pm
Polling indicates about 75% thought the way this was done is wrong. Municipal elections this fall. Could be interesting.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 13, 2018, 08:23:35 pm
Polling indicates about 75% thought the way this was done is wrong. Municipal elections this fall. Could be interesting.

Stuff like this doesn't generally matter a lot in elections. It's basic taxes and stuff. Plus 80% don't vote. And those who do are usually in activist/community associations that are closely courted by mayors and city counselors. I don't know much about Victoria politics, but once you're in office in Ottawa, you're basically in for life, or until you decide to try provincial or federal politics.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 13, 2018, 09:02:05 pm
Stuff like this doesn't generally matter a lot in elections. It's basic taxes and stuff. Plus 80% don't vote. And those who do are usually in activist/community associations that are closely courted by mayors and city counselors. I don't know much about Victoria politics, but once you're in office in Ottawa, you're basically in for life, or until you decide to try provincial or federal politics.

I don't know, something like this could actually get more people voting. Our town had one mayor for over 30 years but since him, only a couple have lasted more than one term, it's now a tough place to be an incumbent. Councillors not so much.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 13, 2018, 09:35:03 pm
At least here in BC we have moved a few steps ahead of NS in that we don't still have laws on the books that allow for bounty's to be paid for Native scalps.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 13, 2018, 10:02:38 pm
At least here in BC we have moved a few steps ahead of NS in that we don't still have laws on the books that allow for bounty's to be paid for Native scalps.

You would be talking about the colony of Nova Scotia that existed prior to Confederation. That law is not in force.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 13, 2018, 10:18:21 pm
You would be talking about the colony of Nova Scotia that existed prior to Confederation. That law is not in force.

Unilaterally unenforced but still on the books.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 14, 2018, 11:29:55 am
Unilaterally unenforced but still on the books.

No it is not. It was a proclamation before Canada existed, made after the natives surprise attack on British civilians. Who they scalped.

Natives invented scalping btw.

Have the Mi’kmaq ever apologized for the civilians they murdered? Doubt it.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 14, 2018, 11:43:53 am
No it is not. It was a proclamation before Canada existed, made after the natives surprise attack on British civilians. Who they scalped.

Natives invented scalping btw.

Have the Mi’kmaq ever apologized for the civilians they murdered? Doubt it.

Well it is actually, but fortunately nobody seems to be availing themselves of it these days.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 15, 2018, 06:04:14 am
Have the Mi’kmaq ever apologized for the civilians they murdered? Doubt it.

I don't think we have apologized for anyone proto-Canadians killed in Indian wars either.  It was peacetime atrocities, and I can only think of residential schools as having an apology associated.  Did we apologize to the US for 1812 ?  To Germany ?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 15, 2018, 12:06:27 pm
The closest thing Canada had to an Indian war was the Northwest Rebellion.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 15, 2018, 06:22:54 pm
I don't think we have apologized for anyone proto-Canadians killed in Indian wars either.  It was peacetime atrocities, and I can only think of residential schools as having an apology associated.  Did we apologize to the US for 1812 ?  To Germany ?

We apologized for hanging those Indian chiefs just because they murdered some people building a road. And didn't the tearing down of the statue of Cornwallis in Halifax come with an apology to the Micmack for fighting back?

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-sorry-but-ive-had-enough-of-saying-sorry?video_autoplay=true
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 17, 2018, 07:22:38 am
We apologized for hanging those Indian chiefs just because they murdered some people building a road. 

What was that ?

General apologies for mistreatment is another thing but ok - I can believe that this other thing happened.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 18, 2018, 01:09:55 pm
Sir John A's statue in Montreal was vandalized last night with the dousing of red paint yet again (4th time in the past year) by the same group, in solidarity with the Victoria removal.  Montreal has no plans on removing the statue:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-montreals-sir-john-a-macdonald-statue-vandalized-with-a-vengeance/
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 22, 2018, 06:17:21 am
If those are the stakes then we'll just have to start up the war again. Who do you think will win?

Uh, no one.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 22, 2018, 06:19:56 am
George Washington owned over 100 slaves when he died.  Where does it stop?  Rename the capital Spike Lee, D.C.?
 

The thing that seems to rile people is not that Native folks and liberals WANT this, but that it's not a substantive measure to help them.  That's what I am reading anyway.

White people also vote and make decisions on identity issues... should we just embrace it and work through it, or should we make a call to actually do something worthwhile to help people ?

I proposed tying two classes of action together a few pages back but it landed with a dull thud.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 22, 2018, 06:21:10 am
Polling indicates about 75% thought the way this was done is wrong. Municipal elections this fall. Could be interesting.

There was a long public process, though.  If the people don't pay attention until after the process has closed whose fault is that ?

Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 22, 2018, 06:24:28 am
Sir John A's statue in Montreal was vandalized last night with the dousing of red paint yet again (4th time in the past year) by the same group, in solidarity with the Victoria removal.  Montreal has no plans on removing the statue:
 

I have changed my mind on this issue.  The fact is that people are hurt by the celebration of Sir John A.  I don't want to whitewash history but they moved the statue to a museum, they didn't destroy it. 

People are upset with things, there is no point in arguing the rationality about it.  Nobody will be convinced.  IN the end, some people want it and some don't and they did something.

If we are concerned about our identity, let's note that but do something substantive about our identity: namely, our propensity to negotiate and move forward.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 22, 2018, 11:40:21 am
Vandalism is not compromise.

In the Victoria case, there was no public process. It was an arrangement cooked up in private between two FN bands and council. The reason one council member voted against it was because there had been no public consultation.

It was not put in a museum, it was put in storage.

Compromise would have been public consultation and a new location decided on before it was removed.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 22, 2018, 10:06:35 pm
The thing that seems to rile people is not that Native folks and liberals WANT this, but that it's not a substantive measure to help them.  That's what I am reading anyway.

White people also vote and make decisions on identity issues... should we just embrace it and work through it, or should we make a call to actually do something worthwhile to help people ?

I proposed tying two classes of action together a few pages back but it landed with a dull thud.

To us it's just being PC, to natives it seems to also be truth and reconciliation, which us westerners don't really quite understand.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 22, 2018, 10:21:42 pm
Well they also took Sir John A from the centerpiece of the $10 bill since 1971, to background duties as one of several people featured on the $10 in 2017, to being removed completely to make room for a black woman on the upcoming 2018 bill.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 23, 2018, 05:42:27 am

1. In the Victoria case, there was no public process. It was an arrangement cooked up in private between two FN bands and council. The reason one council member voted against it was because there had been no public consultation.

2. It was not put in a museum, it was put in storage.

3. Compromise would have been public consultation and a new location decided on before it was removed.
1. I stand corrected.

2. I stand corrected.

3. They could have gone further.  I am ok with it personally if managed right.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 23, 2018, 03:58:34 pm
Well they also took Sir John A from the centerpiece of the $10 bill since 1971, to background duties as one of several people featured on the $10 in 2017, to being removed completely to make room for a black woman on the upcoming 2018 bill.

I see, the only thing you can say about  Viola Desmond is that she is black.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 23, 2018, 04:10:13 pm
I see, the only thing you can say about  Viola Desmond is that she is black.

No, I also said she's a woman.  She was also civil rights activist, & someone I greatly respect, but that wasn't the point I was getting at and which you clearly missed.

You're trying to infer I'm a racist, nice try but thanks for playing.  Typical self-righteous slandering bullsh!t.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2018, 04:35:28 pm
No, I also said she's a woman.  She was also civil rights activist, & someone I greatly respect, but that wasn't the point I was getting at and which you clearly missed.

You're trying to infer I'm a racist, nice try but thanks for playing.  Typical self-righteous slandering bullsh!t.

Can't find where you said all that. Can you point it out.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 23, 2018, 07:11:57 pm
I see, the only thing you can say about  Viola Desmond is that she is black.

That was certainly the only thing Trudeau cared about.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 23, 2018, 07:13:41 pm
No, I also said she's a woman.  She was also civil rights activist, & someone I greatly respect, but that wasn't the point I was getting at and which you clearly missed.

Desmond was not a civil rights activist. She got a ticket for sitting in the white section of a theater while visiting New Glasgow. It's not even evident she knew it was a white section. She took it to court, lost, and neither appealed it nor went to the media nor campaigned on it. She went home and was never seen or heard from again.

She replaces the guy who founded Canada on the bill.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2018, 07:32:43 pm
Desmond was not a civil rights activist. She got a ticket for sitting in the white section of a theater while visiting New Glasgow. It's not even evident she knew it was a white section. She took it to court, lost, and neither appealed it nor went to the media nor campaigned on it. She went home and was never seen or heard from again.

She replaces the guy who founded Canada on the bill.

I see, so racism is equally acceptable toward Black people as it is toward Canada's Native people in your view. Now we're getting to the bottom line.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on August 23, 2018, 10:13:48 pm
Can't find where you said all that. Can you point it out.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpossibleQuerulousHapuku-small.gif)
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 23, 2018, 10:17:24 pm
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpossibleQuerulousHapuku-small.gif)

You'll get a headache doing that.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 24, 2018, 11:43:56 am
I see, so racism is equally acceptable toward Black people as it is toward Canada's Native people in your view. Now we're getting to the bottom line.

I don't find racism acceptable which is why I don't find your racist views acceptable.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2018, 11:49:32 am
I don't find racism acceptable which is why I don't find your racist views acceptable.

You must not read your own posts.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 24, 2018, 12:11:25 pm
You must not read your own posts.

Nothing about my posts are racist. You simply can't handle the fact that I am a judgmental bastard and insist on judging people without the 'special exemption' you grant to minorities.

I do not share your view that they are inferiors incapable of meeting the same standards of behavior.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2018, 12:19:27 pm
Nothing about my posts are racist. You simply can't handle the fact that I am a judgmental bastard and insist on judging people without the 'special exemption' you grant to minorities.

I do not share your view that they are inferiors incapable of meeting the same standards of behavior.

You should have stopped typing after "judgmental bastard" and you'd have had a chance to be accurate.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 24, 2018, 02:34:50 pm
You should have stopped typing after "judgmental bastard" and you'd have had a chance to be accurate.

I don't deny being a judgmental bastard. But the first time I impose different standards on blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be the first, and the first time you impose equal expectations on all blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be your first.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2018, 05:09:24 pm
I don't deny being a judgmental bastard. But the first time I impose different standards on blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be the first, and the first time you impose equal expectations on all blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be your first.

You got it back asswards again. But then I suspect you haven't had the travel opportunities I have to make you less of a judgmental bastard.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 24, 2018, 05:27:19 pm
I don't deny being a judgmental bastard. But the first time I impose different standards on blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be the first, and the first time you impose equal expectations on all blacks, browns, reds, yellows and whites will be your first.

Are you critical of yourself also ?
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 25, 2018, 09:12:00 am
Are you critical of yourself also ?

I would be if I wasn't perfect in every way.

Though I concede that sunshine doesn't shine out of my ass like it clearly does for Omni. Must be nice to not need a night light when you get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: SirJohn on August 25, 2018, 09:18:13 am
You got it back asswards again. But then I suspect you haven't had the travel opportunities I have to make you less of a judgmental bastard.

Travel does not make you less judgmental, nor does it account for your lack of judgement.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: MH on August 25, 2018, 09:24:43 am
1. I would be if I wasn't perfect in every way.

2. Though I concede that sunshine doesn't shine out of my ass like it clearly does for Omni. Must be nice to not need a night light when you get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.
1. Hilarious
2. Admitting your faults, even publicly, and working on them does show weakness but also shows humanity and commitment to improvement.  I try to follow this in my personal life, to admittedly varying results.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: ?Impact on August 25, 2018, 01:13:08 pm
I would be if I wasn't perfect in every way.

I never understood that if you were perfect to begin with, how you could get better looking in your mirror day after day. Your humility however is epic.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: Omni on August 25, 2018, 01:55:07 pm
Travel does not make you less judgmental, nor does it account for your lack of judgement.

I guess having not had the opportunity you wouldn't know. And I go to the bathroom before I go to bed so I don't have to get up.
Title: Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
Post by: wilber on August 30, 2018, 01:15:44 pm

Back to Victoria. Helps now trying to do damage control over statue removal. Election coming.


https://globalnews.ca/news/4416475/victoria-mayor-lisa-helps-apologizes-decision-john-a-macdonald-statue-handled/