Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 11:43:24 am


Title: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 11:43:24 am
A group of scientists who are convinced that trying to reduce CO2 emissions to stave off global warming will not happen soon enough to be effective enough have come up with an alternative plan. The Geoengineering approach would be instead of reducing CO2 in the atmosphere which traps heat from the sun, you simply sprinkle droplets of sulfuric acid in the atmosphere to block a portion of the suns rays from getting in in the first place. I can wrap my head around how that could be effective, but I must say I'm a little uneasy. I need to learn more about the long term effects before I would vote a yea for that idea. Anyway it is interesting.

      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/blocking-the-sun-is-no-plan-b-for-global-warming/

"More than 300 watts per square meter of sunshine hits the top of Earth's atmosphere each year. A third is reflected and the sky, sea and land absorb the rest. Much of that warmth tries to escape back to space but only a little over half makes it each year. That proportion is declining as concentrations of gases in the atmosphere, notably carbon dioxide, edges ever upward. The result: global warming.
To a tinkerer's mind there is an obvious solution: block some of that sunlight from coming in. That's the solution known as geoengineering—the large-scale manipulation of the planet’s environment, in this case the sky. As negotiators at the climate talks underway here spar over what to do about adding more CO2 to the air, geoengineering becomes more and more attractive to those with this tinkerer's bent"
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 11:53:08 am
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: cybercoma on May 24, 2018, 12:20:17 pm
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.
You know, applying our knowledge to problems and coming up with solutions is how we adapt right? Your comment here is like saying, "**** antibiotics. Humans need to adapt to survive." Rejecting interventions only benefits those who profit from nature's destruction. I'm sure they appreciate your support.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 12:40:47 pm
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.

Sounds to me like your version of adaptation is to bury your head in the sand. I think a better way is to attempt to correct a problem, especially one we ourselves have created.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on May 24, 2018, 01:02:11 pm
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 01:23:36 pm
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.

I agree both will be required. For instance if I was thinking about buying property in Florida I might not go for current beach front, but rather move inland a ways and as the ice melts and the SL rises I'll let the beach come to me. Another idea I read about with regard to dealing with the huge deficits in arctic sea ice was to place a multitude of small windmills on the remaining ice with a water pump attached that would act like your lawn sprayer whenever the wind blew and cause the ice to thicken. Of course Carnival Cruise Lines "adapted" by sending a ship with a few thousand people aboard through the NW passage. I wonder what the residents of say, Cambridge Bay thought of that.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 02:49:34 pm
I think both will be necessary. We will have to adapt because we are at a point where change is inevitable. On the other hand, not taking steps to reduce the rate of change will make adapting much more difficult, if not impossible.
The trouble is most attempts to "reduce" emissions to date has little impact on the big picture. This means that money spent is money wasted. If we could have a conversation where the only reduction measures that will be considered will be those with a suitably low cost/tonne CO2 then it would be worth discussing. We can't have that conversation so it is really a choice between pissing away money on pointless but highly visible projects or doing nothing on the mitigation.  Doing nothing makes more sense.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: ?Impact on May 24, 2018, 05:55:40 pm
The Geoengineering approach

Poor old lady, she swallowed a fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a spider.
It squirmed and wriggled and turned inside her.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly.
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a bird.
How absurd!   She swallowed a bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a cat.
Thank of that!   She swallowed a cat.
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird.
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a dog.
She went the whole hog when she swallowed the dog.
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider.
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a cow.
I don't know how she swallowed a cow.
She swallowed the cow to catch the dog,
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider,
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly,
I don't know why she swallowed a fly.
Poor old lady, I think she'll die.

Poor old lady, she swallowed a horse.
She died, of course.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 24, 2018, 08:48:26 pm
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on May 24, 2018, 08:54:07 pm
The trouble is most attempts to "reduce" emissions to date has little impact on the big picture. This means that money spent is money wasted. If we could have a conversation where the only reduction measures that will be considered will be those with a suitably low cost/tonne CO2 then it would be worth discussing. We can't have that conversation so it is really a choice between pissing away money on pointless but highly visible projects or doing nothing on the mitigation.  Doing nothing makes more sense.

Not really. If drinking too much coke is rotting your teeth, don’t you think cutting down on coke should be part of the solution as well as going to the dentist?
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on May 24, 2018, 08:55:29 pm
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.

Good point.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 09:07:44 pm
Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches earth sounds like it would have untold and very unpredictable effects on a gazillion plants, animals, weather systems etc.  We're talking about reducing plant food, which would be terrible for CO2-sucking plantlife.

Well for starters we seem to keep mowing down those CO2 sucking plants to build high rises. And a lot of those plants in Mexico for instance are dyeing because they get too much sun and not near enough rain. From what I read this plan would attempt to generate cloud cover over the oceans, which do absorb a large amount of the suns heat that gets absorbed especially in norther areas where theyr used to be ice. I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best plan, but if your plants were burning up in your greenhouse you might think to put up a few umbrellas.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 09:09:02 pm
Not really. If drinking too much coke is rotting your teeth, don’t you think cutting down on coke should be part of the solution as well as going to the dentist?
If you want to make analogies try a more appropriate one is: if drinking 2 liters coke/day is rotting your teeth cutting would your consumption by 1.9 liters/day make any difference? Now with the coke analogy you can argue cutting out that 100ml can't hurt even if it makes no difference but with CO2 cutting consumption modestly comes with a large cost and if you spend resources on CO2 mitigation those resources are not available for other things like adaption. This means a proper economic analysis requires cost benefit calculation for each measure. If one measure costs $1000 tonne/co2 then it is waste and should not be done. If another measure costs $30 tonne of CO2 then it is definitely worth doing. Unfortunately those analyses are not being done and because there are way too many economic illiterates who are dazzled by fancy projects that cost a lot while doing nothing. This means a lot of resources are being wasted and will not be available to fund the inevitable adaption.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 09:17:00 pm
If you want to make analogies try a more appropriate one is: if drinking 2 liters coke/day is rotting your teeth cutting would your consumption by 1.9 liters/day make any difference? Now with the coke analogy you can argue cutting out that 100ml can't hurt even if it makes no difference but with CO2 cutting consumption modestly comes with a large cost and if you spend resources on CO2 mitigation those resources are not available for other things like adaption. This means a proper economic analysis requires cost benefit calculation for each measure. If one measure costs $1000 tonne/co2 then it is waste and should not be done. If another measure costs $30 tonne of CO2 then it is definitely worth doing. Unfortunately those analyses are not being done and because there are way too many economic illiterates who are dazzled by fancy projects that cost a lot while doing nothing. This means a lot of resources are being wasted and will not be available to fund the inevitable adaption.

Well then you simply have to learn to reduce your coke intake by more that .1 litre don't you. It seems to be working in the EU. Ignoring your addiction to coke won't help your failing teeth.


https://e360.yale.edu/digest/for-the-first-time-renewables-produce-more-electricity-in-the-eu-than-coal
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 09:42:23 pm
Well then you simply have to learn to reduce your coke intake by more that .1 litre don't you. It seems to be working in the EU. Ignoring your addiction to coke won't help your failing teeth.
And all of the money that the EU sunk into achieving their 15% reduction in emissions has been rendered moot by the massive increase in emissions from China and the developing world. It is like a drunk claiming to cut back by spilling a bit of beer while ordering even more.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 10:06:21 pm
And all of the money that the EU sunk into achieving their 15% reduction in emissions has been rendered moot by the massive increase in emissions from China and the developing world. It is like a drunk claiming to cut back by spilling a bit of beer while ordering even more.

"Massive", no. And a strong commitment to cap and then start to reduce emissions by 2030. Narrow minded people used to think the automobile would never take hold back in Henry Ford's day also.

 The world’s biggest emitter of greenhouse gases, China, has launched the world’s biggest ever mechanism to reduce carbon, in the form of an emissions trading system.

China’s top governmental bodies on Tuesday gave their approval to plans for a carbon trading system that will initially cover the country’s heavily polluting power generation plants, then expand to take in most of the economy.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/19/china-aims-to-drastically-cut-greenhouse-gas-emissions-through-trading-scheme
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on May 24, 2018, 10:19:56 pm
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 10:22:37 pm
And a strong commitment to cap and then start to reduce emissions by 2030.
Emission promises a decade or more from now mean squat. Get back to me when China's emissions actually go down.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 10:27:24 pm
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.
The said that about over population in the 70s but human nature and increasing wealth seems to fixed the problem on its own. IOW, it is not a given that special action now is necessary or useful. It is quite possible that tech will emerge in the future that will make reducing CO2 emissions extremely cost effective. However, trying to force reductions with the tech available today is an expensive exercise in futility.

Bottom line: show me a way to reduce emissions that is cost effective (<$50 per tonne of CO2) and I will support using it. If the only options are grossly expensive and/or scams that do nothing (emission offset trading) then I will not support it.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 10:30:36 pm
Reasons to do nothing are a dime a dozen. Sooner or later CO2 emissions will have to be dealt with. If putting it off until you are dead is a strategy, it is probably a good one but they will still have to be dealt with.

There were people back in the day who said government forcing auto manufacturers to cut their exhaust emissions would certainly kill the auto industry. Boy were they wrong then and boy does the air smell better now.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 10:32:49 pm
Emission promises a decade or more from now mean squat. Get back to me when China's emissions actually go down.

So tell us why you think they made those promises and why you think they made them without any concern to actually fulfilling them. We'll get teh popcorn.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on May 24, 2018, 11:03:51 pm
There were people back in the day who said government forcing auto manufacturers to cut their exhaust emissions would certainly kill the auto industry. Boy were they wrong then and boy does the air smell better now.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Generally, when the government mandates a technology before it is ready the regulations have to be rolled back or the companies cheat with the bureaucrats looking the other way. The diesel emission scandal involving almost every diesel vehicle maker is a good example of what happens when emission regulations are too strict to make a vehicle economic.

So tell us why you think they made those promises and why you think they made them without any concern to actually fulfilling them. We'll get teh popcorn.
Same reason every politician make promises they have no intention of keeping: to get approval. Why would promises made by a politician 10 years in the future be given credence when we know that most promises made by politicians for the next 4 years are lies?
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2018, 11:17:32 pm
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Generally, when the government mandates a technology before it is ready the regulations have to be rolled back or the companies cheat with the bureaucrats looking the other way. The diesel emission scandal involving almost every diesel vehicle maker is a good example of what happens when emission regulations are too strict to make a vehicle economic.
Same reason every politician make promises they have no intention of keeping: to get approval. Why would promises made by a politician 10 years in the future be given credence when we know that most promises made by politicians for the next 4 years are lies?

I don't know how old you are but if you have been around anywhere near as long as I have you would know that the air smells a whole lot better due to emission standards that were enacted many years ago. And I would venture a guess that China's commitments are based on the reality of the situation rather than on worrying about a 4 year election cycle. If you'd have ever visited China you would understand why. Perhaps go look up the word "communism".
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2018, 02:29:03 pm
Adaption. It has allowed humans to survive until today. It will serve us in the future.
Grandiose schemes to "fix" a issue that is really beyond our control are a waste of resources.

Adaption will also cost a massive amount of money.  I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2018, 02:35:21 pm
You know, applying our knowledge to problems and coming up with solutions is how we adapt right? Your comment here is like saying, "**** antibiotics. Humans need to adapt to survive." Rejecting interventions only benefits those who profit from nature's destruction. I'm sure they appreciate your support.

That's not true.  But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.  We can spend those savings on other things, thus increasing everyone's wealth.  This makes the costs of getting off fossil fuels very relevant to everyone, if those fossil fuels remain cheaper than renewables.

Now yes, some companies like energy companies do profit exponentially more than the average consumer.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 02:39:17 pm
That's not true.  But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.  We can spend those savings on other things, thus increasing everyone's wealth.

Now yes, some companies like energy companies do profit exponentially more than the average consumer.

And what the hell good is wealth if you can't breath the air or your home is being washed away by rising sea water?
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2018, 02:47:21 pm
And what the hell good is wealth if you can't breath the air or your home is being washed away by rising sea water?

Exactly i agree, which is why a few posts about I said to TimG: "I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs."  It's all about a cost/benefits analysis, and then after that the problem of getting every major country on board to implement it.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 02:55:43 pm
Exactly i agree, which is why a few posts about I said to TimG: "I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs."  It's all about a cost/benefits analysis, and then after that the problem of getting every major country on board to implement it.

And it seems under the guidance of Donald Trump, one major country that is not on board is the US.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/opinion/paris-agreement-climate-china-india.html
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: ?Impact on July 02, 2018, 02:58:36 pm
But we all profit from nature's destruction because cheap fossil fuels increase our standard of living since it reduces costs on our transportation and virtually everything we buy that needs to be shipped somewhere, usually several times over as different materials and raw resources need to be shipped to several places until a final product reaches our hands.

I miss Stompin' Tom

Oh, yes we are the people running in the race,
Buying up the bargains in the old marketplace,
Another sale on something, we'll buy it while it's hot
And save a lot of money spending money we don't got.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 03:15:06 pm
I miss Stompin' Tom

Oh, yes we are the people running in the race,
Buying up the bargains in the old marketplace,
Another sale on something, we'll buy it while it's hot
And save a lot of money spending money we don't got.


Lucky for him he was Canadian and not American, otherwise those softwood lumber tariffs on all that wood he stomped to pieces could have bankrupted him.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on July 02, 2018, 03:43:44 pm
Exactly i agree, which is why a few posts about I said to TimG: "I'd think the best solution would be one that balances costs. including money and environmental and human costs."  It's all about a cost/benefits analysis, and then after that the problem of getting every major country on board to implement it.
I agree on cost benefit but when dealing with unknowns it is very easy to concoct whatever answer you want by manipulating the assumptions used to do the analysis. The main reason why adaptation is a preferable is because you spend based on real data telling you how the local conditions are changing. i.e if the local sea level is rising you build dikes and adjust building codes. Computer models about global sea level rise are not that relevant. A second reason to prefer adaption is there is no need for global agreement on a regime that will only reward those who renege/cheat.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 03:55:10 pm
I agree on cost benefit but when dealing with unknowns it is very easy to concoct whatever answer you want by manipulating the assumptions used to do the analysis. The main reason why adaptation is a preferable is because you spend based on real data telling you how the local conditions are changing. i.e if the local sea level is rising you build dikes and adjust building codes. Computer models about global sea level rise are not that relevant. A second reason to prefer adaption is there is no need for global agreement on a regime that will only reward those who renege/cheat.

I don't think residents of say New York City or coastal Florida have to rely on computer models to tell them about SL rise. They can just look out their windows.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on July 02, 2018, 04:21:31 pm
I don't think residents of say New York City or coastal Florida have to rely on computer models to tell them about SL rise. They can just look out their windows.

Yup

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/rising-sea-levels-sfo-foster-city-1.4711621
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on July 02, 2018, 05:54:49 pm
Yup
The science suggests 1m rise in a 100 years. When the dutch government looked at the issue they concluded that any sea level rises would be slow enough that the could deal with it during their normal dike maintenance cycle. The overheated claims of sea level immediately flooding large areas of coastline are basically nonsense. The rise will be slow and allow plenty of time for adaptation.

http://wlrn.org/post/what-dutch-can-teach-us-about-sea-level-rise

Quote
But the Dutch stopped panicking about sea level rise about 800 years ago and began to address it systematically.

Dikes and levies are a big part of the plan. But the Netherlands has also learned to pick its fights, and even let the water win sometimes.

Most important lesson from the Dutch experience: no need to depend on other countries adhering to an un-enforceable treaty that would inevitably deliver the most benefits to those that cheat and leave the work to others.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 08:31:35 pm
The science suggests 1m rise in a 100 years. When the dutch government looked at the issue they concluded that any sea level rises would be slow enough that the could deal with it during their normal dike maintenance cycle. The overheated claims of sea level immediately flooding large areas of coastline are basically nonsense. The rise will be slow and allow plenty of time for adaptation.

http://wlrn.org/post/what-dutch-can-teach-us-about-sea-level-rise

Most important lesson from the Dutch experience: no need to depend on other countries adhering to an un-enforceable treaty that would inevitably deliver the most benefits to those that cheat and leave the work to others.

I meter by 2100, if the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets stop melting somehow. Science suggests if Greenland goes the SL rise would be more like 7 meters. Maybe we should erect a tent over Greenland.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on July 02, 2018, 08:41:08 pm
I meter by 2100, if the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets stop melting somehow. Science suggests if Greenland goes the SL rise would be more like 7 meters. Maybe we should erect a tent over Greenland.
Stuff like show how little you understand the science. It will take thousands of years for the ice sheets to melt even under worst case scenarios: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282871121_The_multi-millennial_Antarctic_commitment_to_future_sea-level_rise

Quote
Higher-emissions scenarios lead to ice loss from Antarctic that will raise sea level by 0.6-3 metres by the year 2300. Our results imply that greenhouse gas emissions in the next few decades will strongly influence the long-term contribution of the Antarctic ice sheet to global sea level.
~1m contribution over 300 years under worst case scenarios is not a rate that will be hard to adapt to.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 08:58:27 pm
Stuff like show how little you understand the science. It will take thousands of years for the ice sheets to melt even under worst case scenarios: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282871121_The_multi-millennial_Antarctic_commitment_to_future_sea-level_rise
~1m contribution over 300 years under worst case scenarios is not a rate that will be hard to adapt to.

Depends which ice sheet you are talking about. Perhaps you don't understand the science of the Greenland ice sheet, so let me simplify it for you. It's called topography, in other words the the cross sectional shape of Greenland. It's not flat it's quire steep therefore as global warming sends more heat into the ice at higher levels, the melt water flows downhill but then it does flatten out as the sheet approaches the coast. Hence, the water pools on the lower ice and of course absorbs more solar energy which enhances the melt. As the temps rise this scenario will accelerate, and there is a lot of ice on Greenland, contrary to it's name. 
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2018, 09:09:33 pm
I've also read that it will take about 5000 years for all the ice on earth to melt.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2013/09/rising-seas-ice-melt-new-shoreline-maps/

"There are more than five million cubic miles of ice on Earth, and some scientists say it would take more than 5,000 years to melt it all. If we continue adding carbon to the atmosphere, we’ll very likely create an ice-free planet, with an average temperature of perhaps 80 degrees Fahrenheit instead of the current 58."
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 02, 2018, 09:20:24 pm
I've also read that it will take about 5000 years for all the ice on earth to melt.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2013/09/rising-seas-ice-melt-new-shoreline-maps/

"There are more than five million cubic miles of ice on Earth, and some scientists say it would take more than 5,000 years to melt it all. If we continue adding carbon to the atmosphere, we’ll very likely create an ice-free planet, with an average temperature of perhaps 80 degrees Fahrenheit instead of the current 58."

I think I'll buy a sailboat. I'll be able to dock it at my front porch.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 13, 2018, 10:37:45 pm
These Greenlander's are coming coming fact to face with global warming. Literally!

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Greenland
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on July 26, 2018, 12:51:25 am
So as we continue to destroy this place with GHG there may be some good news on the horizon (literally) Scientists now reckon they have found water on Mars. So I guess as we continue to suffer along with forest fires, droughts, rising sea levels, deaths from heat/pollution, we should maybe focus on a Mars transporter.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05795-6?utm_source=twt_nnc&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=naturenews&sf194285020=1
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 05, 2018, 12:50:41 pm
I just heard a news story that I found interesting on this topic. (don't have a cite yet) But the idea focuses on the Hoover Dam and involves harnessing both wind and solar power to simply pump a portion of the water that has already flowed through the dam back into the Mead Reservoir so it can feed the dam again. It's a bit of alchemy turning wind and solar into hydro and no batteries required. The "battery" in essence would be the reservoir. Makes sense to me.   
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: ?Impact on August 05, 2018, 01:29:19 pm
The "battery" in essence would be the reservoir.

Yes, pumped hydro storage has a lot of benefits. I am not sure the Hoover dam is the best example however because it also requires storage downstream of the dam to pump from. At the Hoover dam there are not a lot of downstream lakes, the closest of any size is 10 miles or more away and it is not that large itself.

A little closer to home I have been looking for good examples of where this could be carried out. The last dam on the Madawaska river just before it flows into the Ottawa river at Arnprior has potential. There is significantly large volume of water downstream of the dam and only a mile or so away. While the immediate upstream storage cannot be compared to lake Mead, it is in balance with the downstream volume and the size of the generating station.

The most interesting of course would be the great lakes, and pumping water back up hill from either Ontario to Erie, or Huron to Superior. There is enough water volume in these lakes that you are not going to appreciably alter their level, but you would still get the benefit of that volume flowing back downhill through the generating stations.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on August 05, 2018, 01:38:43 pm
The "battery" in essence would be the reservoir. Makes sense to me.
Its called pumped storage and it is only storage mechanism that can theoretically provide the quantity of power that we need. The trouble is it is geographically limited and lots of places which don't already have access to hydro power will still need natural gas and nuclear base load.

MIT study looks at the limitations of batteries and why people pushing for solar/wind are clueless:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611683/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/

Quote
Ferrara’s modeling has found that such a battery could make it possible for renewables to provide 90 percent of electricity needs for most grids, for just marginally higher costs than today’s.

But it’s dangerous to bank on those kinds of battery breakthroughs—and even if Form Energy or some other company does pull it off, costs would still rise exponentially beyond the 90 percent threshold, Ferrara says.

“The risk,” Jenkins says, “is we drive up the cost of deep decarbonization in the power sector to the point where the public decides it’s simply unaffordable to continue toward zero carbon.”
Fortunately, there is a technically and economically viable solution: nuclear power. But the green zealots would rather see society driven back to the dark ages than accept a source of power they don't like.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 05, 2018, 01:46:43 pm
Yes, pumped hydro storage has a lot of benefits. I am not sure the Hoover dam is the best example however because it also requires storage downstream of the dam to pump from. At the Hoover dam there are not a lot of downstream lakes, the closest of any size is 10 miles or more away and it is not that large itself.

A little closer to home I have been looking for good examples of where this could be carried out. The last dam on the Madawaska river just before it flows into the Ottawa river at Arnprior has potential. There is significantly large volume of water downstream of the dam and only a mile or so away. While the immediate upstream storage cannot be compared to lake Mead, it is in balance with the downstream volume and the size of the generating station.

The most interesting of course would be the great lakes, and pumping water back up hill from either Ontario to Erie, or Huron to Superior. There is enough water volume in these lakes that you are not going to appreciably alter their level, but you would still get the benefit of that volume flowing back downhill through the generating stations.

One thing they did say that made the Hoover project attractive was that California has more solar power than it can put into the grid without problems so they could redirect the excess the relatively short distance to the Colorado River to help run the pumps.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 05, 2018, 01:58:01 pm
Its called pumped storage and it is only storage mechanism that can theoretically provide the quantity of power that we need. The trouble is it is geographically limited and lots of places which don't already have access to hydro power will still need natural gas and nuclear base load.

MIT study looks at the limitations of batteries and why people pushing for solar/wind are clueless:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611683/the-25-trillion-reason-we-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/
Fortunately, there is a technically and economically viable solution: nuclear power. But the green zealots would rather see society driven back to the dark ages than accept a source of power they don't like.

This is different and more efficient than pump storage. Put simply, you are not wasting hydro electricity to spin a turbine backwards.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: kimmy on August 06, 2018, 11:29:49 am
This is different and more efficient than pump storage. Put simply, you are not wasting hydro electricity to spin a turbine backwards.

Using solar or wind power to pump water uphill is pumped storage.

 -k
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: wilber on August 06, 2018, 12:03:29 pm
Using solar or wind power to pump water uphill is pumped storage.

 -k

The catch is you need water and a hill to pump it up.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 06, 2018, 12:58:19 pm
Using solar or wind power to pump water uphill is pumped storage.

 -k

Actually no, the current form of pumped storage is using electricity already produced by a hydro dam to spin the turbine backwards to pump water uphill. Using wind/solar is a new and more efficient approach since the station continues to send power to the grid.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: kimmy on August 06, 2018, 01:48:05 pm
Actually no, the current form of pumped storage is using electricity already produced by a hydro dam to spin the turbine backwards to pump water uphill.

That doesn't even make sense.

Some existing facilities do use pumps as generators and vice versa, but they aren't using hydro dam power to pump water uphill, they're using solar and wind generated electricity to drive the pumps.  And they wouldn't be at hydroelectric generator dams, they'd be at things like open-pit mines that have been converted to storage reservoirs.

Using wind/solar is a new and more efficient approach since the station continues to send power to the grid.

This isn't actually new.

 -k
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 06, 2018, 01:57:11 pm
That doesn't even make sense.

Some existing facilities do use pumps as generators and vice versa, but they aren't using hydro dam power to pump water uphill, they're using solar and wind generated electricity to drive the pumps.  And they wouldn't be at hydroelectric generator dams, they'd be at things like open-pit mines that have been converted to storage reservoirs.

This isn't actually new.

 -k

Well they actually do use hydro power to spin the turbine backwards and push water back uphill for re-use. Been doing it for awhile. The current "big deal" proposal is to pump water using solar and wind back into the Mead Reservoir. A hefty price tag at $3 billion but I can see it paying off over time.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: TimG on August 06, 2018, 02:54:15 pm
The catch is you need water and a hill to pump it up.
Yep. And the Colorado river does not have a lot of water to spare that is not already used by others.

This blog has a good summary of why the entire proposal is pretty dubious: http://euanmearns.com/the-hoover-dam-pumped-hydro-proposal/
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 06, 2018, 03:37:16 pm
Yep. And the Colorado river does not have a lot of water to spare that is not already used by others.

This blog has a good summary of why the entire proposal is pretty dubious: http://euanmearns.com/the-hoover-dam-pumped-hydro-proposal/

You seem to think this process would take water out of the river. Nope, it just recirculates it to provide more clean power. During drought periods in mid summer you simply turn the pumps off and revert to the existing system until the rain returns and the snow melts.
Title: Re: An alternative approach to global warming
Post by: Omni on August 20, 2018, 09:26:42 pm
I've been enjoying sitting in my backyard in the shade of my fruit trees with a cold one in the afternoons before supper, but I live near the ocean so the temperature is moderated somewhat. It's concerning though that what I'm enjoying is in part due to the effects of global warming.

 https://www.carbonbrief.org/powerful-evidence-global-warmings-effect-seasons-found-troposphere