Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmy on May 05, 2018, 10:46:14 am


Title: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 05, 2018, 10:46:14 am
There have been many controversies in recent years over "cultural appropriation". White women wearing dreadlocks. Native themed clothes being worn as Halloween costumes.   The latest one to cause enough controversy on Twitter to become news involves a white girl who wore a Chinese "qipao" style dress to her prom.  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43947959

The girl posted this photo...

(https://i.imgur.com/8XdfoTK.jpg)

 ...on her Twitter page, and somebody replied "My culture is NOT your goddamn prom dress."

https://twitter.com/jere_bare/status/990065548447793152?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

He continues and explains why the "qipao" dress is important-- it became a symbol of women's liberation in Asia, apparently. His post became very widely shared, and many people agree, but many people also disagree.   Some note that she isn't wearing the dress as a "costume", she is wearing it to a formal event, as originally intended. Others simply don't get why they're supposed to be offended.
Quote
When the furore reached Asia, though, many seemed to be scratching their heads. Far from being critical of Ms Daum, who is not Chinese, many people in mainland China, Hong Kong and Taiwan proclaimed her choice of the traditional high-necked dress as a victory for Chinese culture.

“I am very proud to have our culture recognised by people in other countries,” said someone called Snail Trail, commenting on a post of the Utah episode by a popular account on WeChat, the messaging and social media platform that had been read more than 100,000 times.

“It’s ridiculous to criticize this as cultural appropriation,” Ms Zhou Yijun, a Hong Kong-based cultural commentator, said in a telephone interview. “From the perspective of a Chinese person, if a foreign woman wears a qipao and thinks she looks pretty, then why shouldn’t she wear it?”

If anything, the uproar surrounding Ms Daum’s dress prompted many Chinese to reflect on examples of cultural appropriation in their own country. “So does that mean when we celebrate Christmas and Halloween it’s also cultural appropriation?” asked one WeChat user, Larissa.
...
“To Chinese, it’s not sacred and it’s not that meaningful,” said Ms Hung Huang, a Beijing-based writer and fashion blogger, in an interview. “Nowadays, if you see a woman wearing a qipao, she’s probably a waitress in a restaurant or a bride.”

There is also some debate about the origins of the qipao dress itself. The qipao dress was worn by the northern Manchu minority and "appropriated" by the Han majority.  And the "modern" version originated in the 1920s and was actually inspired by western fashion. (reverse cultural appropriation?)

https://www.todayonline.com/world/teenagers-prom-dress-stirs-furore-us-not-china

...

And of course it has turned into a meme as well, with people putting the caption "My culture is not your goddamn prom dress" on photos like this...

(https://i.imgur.com/UQkcyKA.jpg)

...or this...
(https://i.imgur.com/MPzskvW.jpg)

...or this...
(https://i.imgur.com/DWXgMzS.jpg)




What is cultural appropriation?   When is it ok?  When is it not ok?




...

(https://i.imgur.com/QvWHEo5.jpg)

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 05, 2018, 10:55:33 am
The discussion is fine but I understand the people who started it are being harassed now which isn't fine.  I think that's what we have to deal with.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: TimG on May 05, 2018, 11:43:50 am
What is cultural appropriation?   When is it ok?  When is it not ok?
1) There are a billion Chinese in the world. Who decided that this SJW is entitled to speak for them? Even if this SJW expresses a widely held opinion then why should the SJW's opinion be more important than those Chinese that see no problem?

If anyone is "appropriating a voice" it is the SJW who has the arrogance to presume they are entitled to speak for all Chinese.

2) The best way to ensure a minority culture dies and is forgotten is to tell the majority that they are not allowed to adopt/use elements from that culture. Borrowing is how culture propagates.



Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 05, 2018, 11:46:28 am
There has been a ton of American cultural appropriation over the years, are we supposed to be offended as well?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 05, 2018, 12:24:56 pm
1) There are a billion Chinese in the world. Who decided that this SJW is entitled to speak for them? Even if this SJW expresses a widely held opinion then why should the SJW's opinion be more important than those Chinese that see no problem?

If anyone is "appropriating a voice" it is the SJW who has the arrogance to presume they are entitled to speak for all Chinese.

2) The best way to ensure a minority culture dies and is forgotten is to tell the majority that they are not allowed to adopt/use elements from that culture. Borrowing is how culture propagates.

Um, didn't you just point out there are ~ a billion Chinese? How is that a "minority culture"?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 05, 2018, 12:44:48 pm
1) There are a billion Chinese in the world. Who decided that this SJW is entitled to speak for them?

"My culture is NOT your goddamn prom dress."

I think that's a personal expression, not a presumption to speak for others.

Quote
Even if this SJW expresses a widely held opinion then why should the SJW's opinion be more important than those Chinese that see no problem?

You don't have to be an SJW (presuming you have a personal definition that somehow fits) to object to how your group is treated.

Quote

2) The best way to ensure a minority culture dies and is forgotten is to tell the majority that they are not allowed to adopt/use elements from that culture. Borrowing is how culture propagates.

So the 'minority' is Chinese people here ?  That's pretty presumptive.  I think that if you could see into the future you might see that culture dominating on earth but it's anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 05, 2018, 12:59:41 pm
So the 'minority' is Chinese people here ?  That's pretty presumptive.  I think that if you could see into the future you might see that culture dominating on earth but it's anyone's guess.

China might in the future become a dominant exporter of culture in the way that the US is at present...  but what would they actually be exporting?  The "Today Online" article I linked to quoted a Chinese fashion expert who said that nobody in China actually wears a qipao dress unless she is "a waitress in a restaurant or a bride."   America has become the world's dominant cultural exporter for the time being, but it's not exporting much that would be described as "traditional" American culture.  The clothes, movies, television, music, and so on, are all very of the moment, not traditional in any way.

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: TimG on May 05, 2018, 01:06:49 pm
I think that's a personal expression, not a presumption to speak for others.
Of course it is. By describing the dress as "my culture" the speaker usurps ownership of the "culture" in question and implies they speak for who that share the culture. I think it is clear that the speaker is someone who gets high off lecturing others on 'injustices'. Whether they really care about the issue or just care about having an excuse to lecture others is unknown.

So the 'minority' is Chinese people here ?  That's pretty presumptive.  I think that if you could see into the future you might see that culture dominating on earth but it's anyone's guess.
They are a minority in North America.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 05, 2018, 03:18:32 pm
Does this mean every Asian, African and Middle Eastern businessman, professor or politician who wears a suit and tie is appropriating western culture? Should we demand they stop?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 05, 2018, 08:30:56 pm
As long as you're not being racist or totally disrespectful to the other culture i think it's not a big deal.  Everybody needs to get over themselves and chillax a bit.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 07:08:29 am
China might in the future become a dominant exporter of culture in the way that the US is at present...  but what would they actually be exporting? 

Aspects of their culture.  Japan did it with comics and animation for example.
 
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 07:13:00 am
Of course it is. By describing the dress as "my culture" the speaker usurps ownership of the "culture" in question and implies they speak for who that share the culture.

I don't think that makes sense.  "MY" culture is personal by definition.

Quote
I think it is clear that the speaker is someone who gets high off lecturing others on 'injustices'. Whether they really care about the issue or just care about having an excuse to lecture others is unknown.

I won't argue that but getting up in everyone's business has been a thing since forever and isn't the sole domain of left-wing caricatures or Indian church ladies.

Quote
They are a minority in North America.

Ok, well you are ignoring global culture.  Americans are a tiny minority outside America and their culture is arguably a force in every country and not from appropriation.

This statement still sounds weird to me, since I was thinking about global forces:
" The best way to ensure a minority culture dies and is forgotten is to tell the majority that they are not allowed to adopt/use elements from that culture. "

Anyway, is there a counter-example to that sentence ?

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 06, 2018, 09:01:04 am
As long as you're not being racist or totally disrespectful to the other culture i think it's not a big deal.  Everybody needs to get over themselves and chillax a bit.
Who's defining racism and disrespect? If you say the people being disrespected, then I'll have to remember that next time someone makes a cartoon of the prophet in Islam.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 06, 2018, 09:01:58 am
I don't think that makes sense.  "MY" culture is personal by definition.
How can culture be personal? The definition of culture involves groups of people interacting with each other and sharing common understandings, values, norms, and beliefs.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 06, 2018, 09:10:56 am
The definitive dismissal of the silliness of the whole thing.



But I strongly doubt even most Chinese in China are aware of that background these days. Sometimes a dress is just a damn dress. There are no co-opting implications.


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/05/04/dont-get-your-cheongsam-in-a-knot.html
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 06, 2018, 09:19:59 am
Who's defining racism and disrespect? If you say the people being disrespected, then I'll have to remember that next time someone makes a cartoon of the prophet in Islam.

Well that's hard to determine i guess.  People have the legal right to print cartoons of mohammed out of spite, but that doesn't mean it's the right or polite thing to do.  A girl wearing a chinese dress and then her and her friends posing with stereotypical asian hand gestures seems racist.  They have the legal right to do it i suppose but will face the social consequences.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 09:51:43 am
Everyone pretends they are Irish on March 17th. Slap on a kilt and sporran and get weepy on Robby Burns day. No biggy even if you are a Cambodian. No cultural appropriation BS even though it is blatant.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 10:02:29 am
How can culture be personal? The definition of culture involves groups of people interacting with each other and sharing common understandings, values, norms, and beliefs.

If you say it's "your" culture then you are defining it.  For yourself.  I wouldn't allow you to define "Canadian" for me any more than you would allow me to define it for you.  It's ethereal and so you can only define your perspective on it.

Just because one black person says they're ok with the "n-word" doesn't mean I can use it with impunity.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 10:03:19 am
Everyone pretends they are Irish on March 17th. Slap on a kilt and sporran and get weepy on Robby Burns day. No biggy even if you are a Cambodian. No cultural appropriation BS even though it is blatant.

Right... and so here we are.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 10:26:25 am
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:05:05 am
The definitive dismissal of the silliness of the whole thing.

But I strongly doubt even most Chinese in China are aware of that background these days. Sometimes a dress is just a damn dress. There are no co-opting implications.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/05/04/dont-get-your-cheongsam-in-a-knot.html

I guess the obvious rebuttal is that a white woman doesn't get to decide on behalf of others what they should or shouldn't find offensive.


 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 11:19:00 am
I guess the obvious rebuttal is that a white woman doesn't get to decide on behalf of others what they should or shouldn't find offensive.


 -k

?  Am I missing something ?

Did a white woman called Chinese culture HER culture ?

Boing...
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:24:52 am
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?

So... is there an example of a case where a significantly large portion of a culture have agreed that cultural appropriation is actually offensive?  The closest thing I can think of is sports teams referencing aboriginal groups.  Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians.  Edmonton Eskimos.

Perhaps some of the Halloween costumes are patently offensive.  Referencing well-known and insulting stereotypes.  But I think the key words there are "costume" and "insulting" and "stereotypes".

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:26:14 am
?  Am I missing something ?

Did a white woman called Chinese culture HER culture ?

Boing...

SJ's article telling Chinese people not to be offended by the dress dust-up was written by Rosie DiMaio.

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 06, 2018, 11:59:40 am
Following the sports team thought for a moment...   how do the following names and logos make you feel?


Washington Redskins
(https://i.imgur.com/zaXd6YG.png)


Florida Seminoles
(https://i.imgur.com/nAjSuJJ.jpg)


Edmonton Eskimos
(https://i.imgur.com/LZCZz1M.jpg)

Cleveland Indians
(https://i.imgur.com/XRsO9x4.png)

Notre Dame Fighting Irish
(https://i.imgur.com/ktwLt4z.jpg)


With the Eskimos, even though they have long removed anything aboriginal-related from the branding, the name itself is considered an ethnic slur against Inuit, akin to referring to Jews as Kikes or Italians as Wops. I think obviously there'd be a lot of discomfort if somebody named their pro sports team "the Brooklyn Wops".   The Redskins is similar.  Not sure how I feel about the logo... it's obviously a depiction of a historical Native American, but I'm not sure it's an offensive depiction.  The Cleveland Indians logo is pretty clearly offensive.

All of the above have caused some amount of controversy, and I can understand the reasons why.  With the Florida Seminoles, I find neither the name nor the logo offensive. I've never actually heard of any controversy involving the Florida Seminoles, and I included it here because I thought maybe it might be an example of something where the line is harder to describe.  And the same with the Fighting Irish logo... is it actually offensive to Irish people?


 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 12:09:33 pm
Maybe we're closer to a definition of what it is than we think.

If "most" of that culture (inside the national/regional culture where the event occurred) are actually offended can we both:

1) Admit that it is, in fact, offensive and
2) Dismiss individual complaintants who pretend to speak for the whole ?

So if no one complains it isn't cultural appropriation regardless of what someone does?

I find the the label ridiculous. Imitating someone is not stealing their culture, regardless of how bad that imitation is. I can understand why some things are considered offensive and sometimes they are intended to be, but there is no such thing as intellectual property when it comes to culture.

Whatever happened to the expression, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Most people imitate the things they enjoy, even when they do it badly.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 12:12:56 pm
Kimmy, you forgot the Minnesota Vikings. Why aren't Scandinavians up in arms?

I get the problem FN have with many of the team logos and some but not all of the names.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 03:30:13 pm
So... is there an example of a case where a significantly large portion of a culture have agreed that cultural appropriation is actually offensive?  The closest thing I can think of is sports teams referencing aboriginal groups.  Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians.  Edmonton Eskimos.

The NAACP (I think) forced the TV version of Amos and Andy off the air... in the 1950s (!).  But those are good examples.

Quote
Perhaps some of the Halloween costumes are patently offensive.  Referencing well-known and insulting stereotypes.  But I think the key words there are "costume" and "insulting" and "stereotypes".

 -k

You know.  The industries themselves are pretty good at watching for this stuff, as when they fail it can destroy your brand.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 03:33:51 pm
So if no one complains it isn't cultural appropriation regardless of what someone does?

That's what I am wondering, yes.

Quote
I find the the label ridiculous. Imitating someone is not stealing their culture, regardless of how bad that imitation is. I can understand why some things are considered offensive and sometimes they are intended to be, but there is no such thing as intellectual property when it comes to culture.
Nonetheless, it is a thing.

Quote
Whatever happened to the expression, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Most people imitate the things they enjoy, even when they do it badly.
The Police sued Puff Daddy for ripping off 'Every Breath You Take' and won.  The Gospels all copied each other. 
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 06, 2018, 03:34:47 pm
If you say it's "your" culture then you are defining it.  For yourself.  I wouldn't allow you to define "Canadian" for me any more than you would allow me to define it for you.  It's ethereal and so you can only define your perspective on it.

Just because one black person says they're ok with the "n-word" doesn't mean I can use it with impunity.
Cukture by definition is shared. We cannot have personal definitions of culture because that goes against the meaning of the word. I don’t understand at all how we could all have a different definition of something that literally means shared views.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 06, 2018, 03:54:48 pm
Everyone pretends they are Irish on March 17th. Slap on a kilt and sporran and get weepy on Robby Burns day. No biggy even if you are a Cambodian. No cultural appropriation BS even though it is blatant.

The argument is that the irish aren't a marginalized group.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 06, 2018, 03:56:21 pm
So... is there an example of a case where a significantly large portion of a culture have agreed that cultural appropriation is actually offensive?  The closest thing I can think of is sports teams referencing aboriginal groups.  Washington Redskins. Cleveland Indians.  Edmonton Eskimos.

From what I've heard in polls are whatnot, most aboriginals don't care about the Washington Redkins etc.  I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 06, 2018, 03:57:25 pm
Kimmy, you forgot the Minnesota Vikings. Why aren't Scandinavians up in arms?

Not a marginalized group.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 04:08:22 pm
That's what I am wondering, yes.
Nonetheless, it is a thing.
The Police sued Puff Daddy for ripping off 'Every Breath You Take' and won.  The Gospels all copied each other.

Culture is not copyrighted.

I guess all those people wearing Nehru jackets in the sixties were guilty of cultural appropriation (if they only knew), but then so would all those South Asians walking around in Saville Row Suits.

It’s just a dumb concept made up by people who need to take offence. The intent is what makes anything a compliment or insult.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 04:10:09 pm
Not a marginalized group.

So only “marginalized groups” can have their cultures appropriated. Who knew?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 06, 2018, 05:27:29 pm
So only “marginalized groups” can have their cultures appropriated. Who knew?

Most of the thought crimes the Left comes up with have a little asterisk at the end that says "Only applies to white people".
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 06, 2018, 05:35:24 pm
Most of the thought crimes the Left comes up with have a little asterisk at the end that says "Only applies to white people".

Because calling somebody 'honky' means pretty much nothing compared to the 'N Word' ?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 06, 2018, 05:40:27 pm
Because calling somebody 'honky' means pretty much nothing compared to the 'N Word' ?

If you reduce it to name calling, yeah, but racism/prejudice and bigotry encompass a lot more than that.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 06, 2018, 07:58:15 pm
If you reduce it to name calling, yeah, but racism/prejudice and bigotry encompass a lot more than that.

Bigots tend to resort to name calling because they haven't the IQ to ascend above that.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 06, 2018, 08:00:22 pm
Bigots tend to resort to name calling because they haven't the IQ to ascend above that.

Given most of your posts involve name-calling I guess we should consider that some sort of confession.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 06, 2018, 08:14:18 pm
Given most of your posts involve name-calling I guess we should consider that some sort of confession.
y whiter they

Ha ha. Once again that is rather rich coming from you. Canada has been populated by immigrants for decades. I am the second generation of Scottish immigrants who arrived here not highly educated or rich, but they knew how to farm, they worked hard, and raised six children who also became successful. That's how the country was built. I guess because Scots are pretty much white skinned they are acceptable to you. Your constant xenophobia is not Canadian as far as I'm concerned. And it's tiring.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 06, 2018, 09:20:51 pm
I thought this was about cultural appropriation, the ludicrous notion that someone is somehow stealing another’s culture by imitating it.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 07, 2018, 07:45:24 am
From what I've heard in polls are whatnot, most aboriginals don't care about the Washington Redkins etc.  I could be wrong.
Most people don't care about any politics whatsoever. They accept the status quo.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 07, 2018, 07:46:51 am
If you reduce it to name calling, yeah, but racism/prejudice and bigotry encompass a lot more than that.
Yes it does. That's why it's not the same thing. Your problem is you don't actually recognize the "a lot more than that" part of the equation.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 07, 2018, 08:06:10 am
I thought this was about cultural appropriation, the ludicrous notion that someone is somehow stealing another’s culture by imitating it.
It's about making someone's culture a caricature in popular culture. Look at the bastardization of Cinco de Mayo. Most Americans have no clue wtf it is about. To them it's about eating Tex-Mex food (not even authentic Mexican cuisine) and getting ripped on Corona and Margaritas. More than it's about being part of a dominant class that has the social resources to profit from cultural elements that are actually used to oppress people from a non-dominant class. Redskin is a racist caricature of a native person. Miley Cyrus twerking on TV makes profitable something that was met with disgust when black people were doing it. Culture appropriation reveals the structural racism* in society by re-presenting culture queues in a bastardized way, while the source presentation of those queues is either oppressed or a source of oppression for others.

We're not going to fully analyze the issue of cultural appropriation on a message board. If you want more information about it, look into it. Read scholars who are experts on the topic. There's articles out there explaining what it is and why it's a problem. The crux of the issue is that a dominant class is in a position literally to create common meaning for cultures that are not their own. People not only interact on what they perceive, but they interact according to socially constructed meanings that they have for things. Cultural appropriation is about taking something from another culture and changing its meaning when you are not a part of that culture. It's about defining things that are sometimes sacred for one people (native headwear as a fashion statement for instance), when you have no business doing so because you are not of those people.

The reason you don't see cultural appropriation the other way around is because it is about having the power to create discourse in the Foucauldian sense. Knowledge is power and being able to give definition and meaning to things is a way of exerting power. Throughout history, that power has been used to oppress people, define them as something Other and different, but most importantly inferior. You need to be part of a dominant class in order to create those definitions in a way that are broadly adopted at best or simply accepted as given without much thought. The reason subordinate groups can't engage in cultural appropriation is that they don't have the social standing to change broad cultural definitions.

Criticism for cultural appropriation attempts to give power back to the subordinated groups to define for themselves their own culture. It's a way of addressing the power imbalance, but it's also an opportunity to preserve the dignity and respect of people to have their culture recognized by others as it is for them. Lost entirely on people who try to reverse roles is that they never conceive of reversing the power dynamic, just the situational relationships. The problem here is fundamentally about power and ignoring that literally turns a blind eye to core of the issue.

*Note: It doesn't just need to be racism. It's about power, so it can be any dominant position: sex, wealth, absence of disabilities, etc.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 07, 2018, 11:04:39 am
y whiter they

Ha ha. Once again that is rather rich coming from you. Canada has been populated by immigrants for decades. I am the second generation of Scottish immigrants who arrived here not highly educated or rich, but they knew how to farm, they worked hard, and raised six children who also became successful.

Who gives a ****? We don't need uneducated labourers any more. There's no place for them, especially when they can't speak English. They don't build farms now. They go on welfare while their kids join gangs.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 07, 2018, 11:06:07 am
Yes it does. That's why it's not the same thing. Your problem is you don't actually recognize the "a lot more than that" part of the equation.

I recognize the practical results when I see them. But I have to see evidence of that. And statistics on racial or gender balances alone don't count as evidence.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 07, 2018, 11:07:20 am
Who gives a ****? We don't need uneducated labourers any more. There's no place for them, especially when they can't speak English. They don't build farms now. They go on welfare while their kids join gangs.

Me (in university long ago): Why aren't there any Italians in our dorm
Friend: Because we don't teach cement mixing at this university
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 07, 2018, 11:20:36 am
Me (in university long ago): Why aren't there any Italians in our dorm
Friend: Because we don't teach cement mixing at this university

Did you have a point to that? The only one I can imagine is that if we bring in all these, say, Nigerians, then some day, maybe in a couple of decades, some of their kids will go to university and be educated.

So what do we do with the hundreds of thousands that come in and aren't ever going to university? Welfare. I offer you up the same deal as I did with others who love immigration and migration. Get together, volunteer to have your taxes quadrupled so you guys can pay for their welfare, health care, housing etc. for the next fifty or sixty years of their lives in Canada. Also, let the government put a lien on your house so they can sell that if your taxes aren't enough.

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 07, 2018, 11:22:01 am
Hate to break it to you Cyber but Cinco de Mayo is all about partying in Mexico to.

It is more about evolution than power. Cultures have always intermixed and evolved. As mentioned before, things like St Patricks Day, Robert Burns Day, Chinese New Year etc. No one gets uptight about non Christians celebrating Christmas in whatever way they want. Who knows what things like Diwali and Vaisakhi will morph into in time. The cultural appropriation crowd think cultural segregation is a way to bring people together. Odd bunch.

I can see people being offended by unflattering charicatures. Red Skins is a terrible name for anything and things like the Cleveland Indians logo sure aren't very flattering but otherwise, these things have to be taken on a case by case basis. Since when have sports team names had anything to do with historical accuracy? Canucks is a cultural stereotype as is using Habs to describe the Canadiens. What about the UBC Thunderbirds or the Seattle Seahawks? How stupid do you want to get about this?

The assertion that a few white folks dressed in Chinese costumes and making gestures is appropriating the culture of the most populous country on the planet is beyond the pale. That's an Anglo Irish expression  BTW.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 07, 2018, 11:37:27 am
Did you have a point to that? The only one I can imagine is that if we bring in all these, say, Nigerians, then some day, maybe in a couple of decades, some of their kids will go to university and be educated.

That's one.

Quote
So what do we do with the hundreds of thousands that come in and aren't ever going to university? Welfare. I offer you up the same deal as I did with others who love immigration and migration. Get together, volunteer to have your taxes quadrupled so you guys can pay for their welfare, health care, housing etc. for the next fifty or sixty years of their lives in Canada. Also, let the government put a lien on your house so they can sell that if your taxes aren't enough.

I don't think your scenario is realistic, but I would be interested in a thread where that is laid out.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 07, 2018, 12:12:27 pm
That's one.

I don't think your scenario is realistic, but I would be interested in a thread where that is laid out.

Why do you think my scenario is unrealistic? Have you ever tried to get a good job in Canada without the use of English, without any post-secondary education, without more than bare minimal, heavily accented language skills? Do you imagine that's really easy? The Italians you spoke of had useful skills which allowed them to support their families. Many of those coming here now, particularly the economic migrants, do not. The statistics from immigration canada make that fairly clear.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 07, 2018, 12:19:16 pm
Hyperbolic: hundreds of thousands of immigrants on welfare making my taxes quadruple.

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Goddess on May 07, 2018, 12:19:24 pm
Unless it's done with blatant disrespect,

 "Imitation is the highest form of flattery."
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 07, 2018, 12:25:25 pm
Hyperbolic: hundreds of thousands of immigrants on welfare making my taxes quadruple.

50,000 refugees were accepted into Canada last year. There is some suggestion that those crossing the border from the US could rise to 60,000 all by themselves, without regard to other streams of migrants and refugees. That's 100,000 in just two years. So how many, including the failed immigrants, those who came here legally and didn't find work, are we talking about over, say, a five or six year period? Few have any language, education or job skills applicable to the Canadian economy. And as manual labour and low skilled jobs disappear over the coming decade this presents a possible crisis in our medium term future.

As for your taxes quadrupling, no, that was a suggestion that those who feel teary eyed over all the migrants should volunteer to pay for their upkeep (for the rest of their lives) and so let your generosity of spirit be matched by your generosity of giving, rather than forcing others to give.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 07, 2018, 12:29:30 pm
Unless it's done with blatant disrespect,

 "Imitation is the highest form of flattery."

Of course, but then it isn't flattery, it's just an insult. You don't have to make up fancy PC labels for it.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 07, 2018, 12:43:48 pm
50,000 refugees were accepted into Canada last year.

Source please.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 08, 2018, 01:41:32 am
Who gives a ****? We don't need uneducated labourers any more.

Didjawansumfrieswidat?

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 08, 2018, 11:31:05 am
Source please.


Refugees admitted to Canada
2016 - 46,700
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/record-number-of-refugees-admitted-to-canada-in-2016-highest-since-1980-1.3382444
2017 - 47,425
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/de-facto-amnesty-a-look-at-the-daunting-reality-of-canadas-migrant-crisis/wcm/11f6db3a-b1d1-4096-a4d9-e14db297c231

Note, as the article says, illegal border crossings have more than doubled from last year at this time.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: TimG on May 08, 2018, 03:48:37 pm
Back to the original op: how does one determine if one has the "right" the use a culture?

- pure blood only?
- mixed? how much? 50% 25%? Does the "one drop rule" apply?
- what about people who are adopted?
- will we need a registry to determine who is allowed to use each culture?
- or should people be free to choose like gender?

The possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 08, 2018, 04:19:01 pm

Refugees admitted to Canada
2016 - 46,700
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/record-number-of-refugees-admitted-to-canada-in-2016-highest-since-1980-1.3382444
2017 - 47,425
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/de-facto-amnesty-a-look-at-the-daunting-reality-of-canadas-migrant-crisis/wcm/11f6db3a-b1d1-4096-a4d9-e14db297c231

Note, as the article says, illegal border crossings have more than doubled from last year at this time.

FAKE NEWS!! 

Everyone knows that this
Quote
Although a recent report found that integration and financial independence remain a challenge for many Syrian refugees a year after their arrival, Beuze said that overall, refugees in Canada end up doing very well.

He said the majority of refugees find jobs and develop a strong attachment to Canada over the years. Children integrate very well, he said, because they are able to pick up English or French quickly and usually thrive in school.

“Becoming a refugee is never a choice,” Beuze said. “It’s a decision you have to make to save your life and the lives of your children.”
is utter nonsense.  If you have a feeling that refugees are a drain on society, then clearly they must be!
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 08, 2018, 05:05:13 pm

Refugees admitted to Canada
2016 - 46,700

Yes, we knew 2016 was a high year because of the 25,000 Syrians.


2017 - 47,425

I don't see that in the article you linked.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 08, 2018, 05:11:56 pm
So only “marginalized groups” can have their cultures appropriated. Who knew?

Well that's their reasoning, because a less powerful group is being exploited by a more powerful group.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 08, 2018, 05:16:32 pm
Most people don't care about any politics whatsoever. They accept the status quo.

"New poll finds 9 in 10 Native Americans aren’t offended by Redskins name".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.346c229b5e19

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 08, 2018, 05:23:01 pm
Unless it's done with blatant disrespect,

 "Imitation is the highest form of flattery."

There's a difference between imitation and mockery.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: wilber on May 08, 2018, 05:26:11 pm
Well that's their reasoning, because a less powerful group is being exploited by a more powerful group.

How are they being exploited?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 08, 2018, 05:27:48 pm
How are they being exploited?

I'm not the one to ask, I'm just reporting the news.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 11, 2018, 04:27:55 pm
I don't see that in the message you linked.

Can you count?

In 2017, the Immigration and Refugee Board received at least 18,149 claims from what they call “irregular border crossers” — those who claimed asylum after first entering Canada illegally. This was compared to 29,276 people who applied for refugee status through legal channels.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 11, 2018, 04:50:43 pm
Can you count?

You said accepted refugees, that is not what those numbers indicate. It is not my counting that is faulty, it is your understanding.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: fedup on May 11, 2018, 07:45:45 pm
There have been many controversies in recent years over "cultural appropriation". White women wearing dreadlocks. Native themed clothes being worn as Halloween costumes.   The latest one to cause enough controversy on Twitter to become news involves a white girl who wore a Chinese "qipao" style dress to her prom.  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43947959

The girl posted this photo...

(https://i.imgur.com/8XdfoTK.jpg)

 ...on her Twitter page, and somebody replied "My culture is NOT your goddamn prom dress."

https://twitter.com/jere_bare/status/990065548447793152?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

He continues and explains why the "qipao" dress is important-- it became a symbol of women's liberation in Asia, apparently. His post became very widely shared, and many people agree, but many people also disagree.   Some note that she isn't wearing the dress as a "costume", she is wearing it to a formal event, as originally intended. Others simply don't get why they're supposed to be offended.
There is also some debate about the origins of the qipao dress itself. The qipao dress was worn by the northern Manchu minority and "appropriated" by the Han majority.  And the "modern" version originated in the 1920s and was actually inspired by western fashion. (reverse cultural appropriation?)

https://www.todayonline.com/world/teenagers-prom-dress-stirs-furore-us-not-china

...

And of course it has turned into a meme as well, with people putting the caption "My culture is not your goddamn prom dress" on photos like this...

(https://i.imgur.com/UQkcyKA.jpg)

...or this...
(https://i.imgur.com/MPzskvW.jpg)

...or this...
(https://i.imgur.com/DWXgMzS.jpg)




What is cultural appropriation?   When is it ok?  When is it not ok?




...

(https://i.imgur.com/QvWHEo5.jpg)

 -k

If all those liberal media news outlets out there like the BBC and CBC for instance just minded their own business and avoided reporting on this silly stupid story this would have gone nowhere. But if someone appears to be crying over what appears to be an act of racism those two sources of fake news mentioned above will go bonkers and they must report this as a racist incident. This world has become a haven for SJW snowflake crybabies. If it looks like someone is trying to make fun or just dress up looking like someone else's culture than all hell will break loose and it must be reported. Where have all the real conservative men and women gone? Is all that we have left is snowflake offended liberals? All we seem to be getting these days is a bunch of whiny cultural crybabies who get offended over any and everything that may offend their culture. Maybe I should get offended over seeing some native Indian wearing white man's clothing. Don't they have their own Indian clothing to wear? Just saying.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 11, 2018, 08:57:44 pm
Fedup, how can you seriously complain about 'fake news' when you lie on here regularly ?

Still telling people that Angela Merkel is Jewish ? 

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 11, 2018, 09:48:37 pm
Fedup, how can you seriously complain about 'fake news' when you lie on here regularly ?

Still telling people that Angela Merkel is Jewish ?

Why even bother reacting to that guy?  He's either a troll or he's severely mentally retarded. Either way it's a waste of breath. 

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 11, 2018, 09:51:11 pm
Why even bother reacting to that guy?  He's either a troll or he's severely mentally retarded. Either way it's a waste of breath. 

 -k

Maybe you're right, but I would like to see every post where he blubbers about "liars" and "fake news" to have one right beside it pointing out what a fake and liar he is.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 11, 2018, 10:01:46 pm
I guess that's a fair point.  I just tend to think that the only reason he does this is that he likes to thing that he's "fighting the SJWs" by "triggering snowflakes".

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 12, 2018, 07:14:53 am
"triggering snowflakes".
 

I'm no more 'triggered' than I am when I see a pop can rolling around on a subway platform.  I throw those in the trash too.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 12, 2018, 10:27:59 am
There's a difference between imitation and mockery.

I think we can all agree on this much at least. 


But I don't think that really captures the extent of the ideology at work here.

This case made the news a few years ago, as the University of Ottawa students society cancelled a free yoga class for disabled students because of concerns over cultural appropriation.  The instructor was a white woman, giving free sessions to disabled students.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/university-ottawa-yoga-cultural-sensitivity-1.3330441

One of the interesting things about the article is that the students union guy acknowledged that they hadn't received any complaints, and when the reporter sought the opinion of the elderly Hindu couple that lead the Ottawa Hindu Temple, they thought it was great: "If you look at what the Western world has adapted it is just phenomenal. Imagine how much good they're doing for themselves. They'll live a long and very happy life."

The students union guy said that the class could return later if it was made "more accessible".  It did return the next semester... and apparently by "more accessible" what they meant was "with an Indian instructor".  And by "Indian" they meant a Calgary-born Canadian woman of Indian background:

Quote
"Nothing was brought to my attention to teach in a different way or do something differently than the other instructor because none of that was really mentioned to me," said Priya Shah, who became certified as an instructor in May.

"When I read [about it], I was kind of thinking 'Did they hire me because I'm Indian?… I was born in Calgary, I grew up in Canada but my background is Indian and I've been there once before. I was there for about five months.

"There are many people in my family who practise but I've never had the thought that since I'm Indian that I'm a better yoga teacher."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/free-yoga-class-returns-to-uottawa-student-centre-1.3417817



 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 12, 2018, 10:38:14 am
Again, there only has to be *so* much logic to these things. 

I think the University was on to something when they consulted with Indian people.  Orgs love to do this: defer to another body to provide advice.  They could easily do that, and come up with a process for dealing with these things so it doesn't have to be played out ... stupidly.

Also, does it matter if <50% of the racial group is insulted if >20% of white people with power ARE insulted by it ?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 12, 2018, 11:46:21 am
Again, there only has to be *so* much logic to these things. 

I think the University was on to something when they consulted with Indian people.  Orgs love to do this: defer to another body to provide advice.  They could easily do that, and come up with a process for dealing with these things so it doesn't have to be played out ... stupidly.

While the reporter consulted with Indian people, it's not clear from the article that the students union people did.

Also, does it matter if <50% of the racial group is insulted if >20% of white people with power ARE insulted by it ?

So first off, in this instance I wouldn't necessarily assume that the U of Ottawa students council people are white.  Student politics seems to be more diverse than the population at large.

And the second thing is that I don't think that the people who made this decision because they were offended by it, I think they were most likely acting because of concerns that people might be.   The article does mention a Hindu group's campaign to "take back yoga" (https://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/yoga-hindu-origins) and references concerns that yoga is becoming "commercialized" by businesses that just want to sell apparel and accessories without any concern about yoga's cultural roots.  (That might be reasonable, but there's nothing commercial about a lady providing free sessions to help disabled people improve their physical wellness... and while Lulu Lemon might sell a lot of clothes to women who have jumped on the yoga bandwagon, I don't think that anything Lulu Lemon sells is remotely Indian in style.)

It seems like maybe the students union people were trying to be proactive and "do the right thing" before somebody came to them with complaints.  And that might be reasonable as well... but I think that maybe they overestimate how fragile people actually are.


 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 12, 2018, 12:06:01 pm
So first off, in this instance I wouldn't necessarily assume that the U of Ottawa students council people are white.  Student politics seems to be more diverse than the population at large.

The elected representatives of the Student Federation of University of Ottawa are:

Tristan Lamonica
Samantha Gauthier
Cori Trandafir
Gabi Ghannoum
Mathew Boulden
Philippe Garcia-Duchesne
Sheryhann Djellab
Tala Kreidieh
Caroline Lu
Michel Antoun
Yawen Chen
Emily Prieur
Sarah Mhidi
Soukaina Tamtaoui
Milly Pang
Ocean Ho
Arsalan Ahmed Khan
Ahmed Lamrani
Laura Bassett
Brandon Jones
Marissa Mills

 
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 12, 2018, 06:53:46 pm
Maybe you're right, but I would like to see every post where he blubbers about "liars" and "fake news" to have one right beside it pointing out what a fake and liar he is.
Remember when the old advice was to ignore the trolls. This is what that idea doesn't work en masse because there's always going to be someone to give them the attention that they want.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 12, 2018, 07:09:58 pm
Remember when the old advice was to ignore the trolls. This is what that idea doesn't work en masse because there's always going to be someone to give them the attention that they want.

I don't know about that as advice... but it was policy.  Personally I feel like liars and trolls should be driven away by any means necessary, and I feel like ignoring them without addressing their poison allows them to proliferate.

"Ignore the rats and cockroaches"

If that sign was up in a restaurant I would probably give it a pass.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 12, 2018, 10:18:54 pm
The people who are elected and run student unions are filled with the dumbest and most insane people.  Student unions are absolutely insane.  Not all members, but many.

Making matters worse, students don't give a crap about voting for these things so they don't, the most popular students win because their friends & dorm peeps vote them in.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: ?Impact on May 13, 2018, 07:30:18 am
The people who are elected and run student unions are filled with the dumbest and most insane people.

I know who ran and lost.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: SirJohn on May 13, 2018, 11:56:41 am
The people who are elected and run student unions are filled with the dumbest and most insane people.  Student unions are absolutely insane.  Not all members, but many.

Making matters worse, students don't give a crap about voting for these things so they don't, the most popular students win because their friends & dorm peeps vote them in.

And the people who run usually seem to be 'activists' from the far left filled with an earnest zeal to make the world a better place.

Just like Mao's Red Guards.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 13, 2018, 12:36:56 pm
I think that the large majority of students on campus just don't actually care about this kind of stuff. Most are there for their programs of study, not to be activists. I spent 1 year at the U of A and barely noticed when the students union elections happened... there was student activism, but none of it was of the outraged mob variety... and for the most part it was only a tiny minority of students involved in it at all. None of the students in my classes seemed to care in the slightest.

I strongly believe that the present notion of a campus full of student activists and triggered snowflakes and social justice warriors is a media creation, that this aspect of universities has been magnified vastly out of proportion to its real size.

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2018, 01:36:47 pm
I know who ran and lost.

hahaha. i never ran.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2018, 01:43:36 pm
I think that the large majority of students on campus just don't actually care about this kind of stuff. Most are there for their programs of study, not to be activists. I spent 1 year at the U of A and barely noticed when the students union elections happened... there was student activism, but none of it was of the outraged mob variety... and for the most part it was only a tiny minority of students involved in it at all. None of the students in my classes seemed to care in the slightest.

I strongly believe that the present notion of a campus full of student activists and triggered snowflakes and social justice warriors is a media creation, that this aspect of universities has been magnified vastly out of proportion to its real size.

 -k

I don't quite agree.  I was very politically engaged while studying, a lefty activist etc., but i didn't care much about my student union and never bothered to vote.  Not because i didn't like them but because i didn't care about student issues enough to vote, and didn't even know any difference between the candidates.

It's a lot easier to get PO'd at the POTUS and tweet about it.  People are familiar with those issues and the whole political process there.  I didn't have any idea how my university politics worked, by the time i even realized 20% of what was happening i'd graduated.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2018, 02:07:47 pm
This case made the news a few years ago, as the University of Ottawa students society cancelled a free yoga class for disabled students because of concerns over cultural appropriation.  The instructor was a white woman, giving free sessions to disabled students.

Does this mean a white guy can't teach a brazillian jiu jitsu class, or karate?  Can a white person open up a taco joint?

Maybe we should bring back the cold war fully and hope for a nuclear holocaust so we all die because society has truly gone apesh!t nuts.  I just want a nice stretch and then go for some yummy tacos dammit.

Personally, i think the west is so highly economically developed that we don't have many problems to focus on any more, so we have to find such minor problems like these to "fix".  100 years ago we were still dying from diseases and wars and were busy farming everyday just to eat.  We were worried about surviving the winter, now we don't, we eat so much we're fat asses sitting around watching movies/TV shows about survival because that struggle is ingrained in our DNA.

Every new generation is coddled more than the previous, leading to the ever-increasing pussification of society.  The last generation that actually had to survive are the parents of boomers who grew up during the depression then went off to WWII.  I lived in my parents basement in adulthood playing videogames because i could, until i realized i had to grow up.  It's no wonder the p*ssy generations, especially young men babied by mommy & daddy, are eating up people like Jordan Peterson.  Their parents and society have failed them & turned them into mush.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 20, 2018, 10:04:15 pm
I am going all-in on cultural appropriation this summer, as I'm going to be wearing Cuban linens to beat the heat.

 Fight me.

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 20, 2018, 10:06:59 pm
I am going all-in on cultural appropriation this summer, as I'm going to be wearing Cuban linens to beat the heat.

 Fight me.

 -k

I had a Black man from Trinidad teach me karate for 3 years. I can fight too.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 20, 2018, 10:14:02 pm
I had a Black man from Trinidad teach me karate for 3 years. I can fight too.

My Ukrainian mom taught me judo from almost as soon as I was able to walk.   Tell you what, you get in the gym, train for 5 years, and when you think you're ready for me, go back to the gym and train for 5 more years.  :P   :D

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 20, 2018, 10:26:46 pm
My Ukrainian mom taught me judo from almost as soon as I was able to walk.   Tell you what, you get in the gym, train for 5 years, and when you think you're ready for me, go back to the gym and train for 5 more years.  :P   :D

 -k

The style of karate I studied is called Wado Ryu, which translates roughly to school of harmony or school of peace, and is a very old style and one that Sensei Greg went to Japan for a number of years to study before opening his dojo. One of the concepts he used to refer to was , "if someone wants to pick a fight with you, run away. If they can't catch up with you, they are not a worthy opponent to start with". 
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 20, 2018, 10:38:35 pm
I am going all-in on cultural appropriation this summer, as I'm going to be wearing Cuban linens to beat the heat.

 Fight me.

 -k

YOU ****!
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 20, 2018, 10:52:28 pm
Mom learned judo at university, and was supposedly very good at it.  She says she was a black belt, although that's pretty meaningless.  Imbued with Heavy Duty Ukrainian Farm Girl size and strength, mom was very formidable according to legend. As for me, I competed for quite a while, and quite successfully.  If I had continued to compete, who knows how far I might have gotten.  The word "harmony" really never appeared in mom's vocabulary, and judo as practiced in my family is pretty **** intense. Lessons I learned tended to focus on ideas like "if you trip somebody in this position, you land with their full body weight, and yours, on their shoulder. It'll **** 'em up."

Sensei Greg

For some reason, that makes me think of "Sensei Rex" from Napoleon Dynamite.  I can't shake it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 20, 2018, 10:54:24 pm
My Ukrainian mom taught me judo from almost as soon as I was able to walk.   Tell you what, you get in the gym, train for 5 years, and when you think you're ready for me, go back to the gym and train for 5 more years.  :P   :D

 -k

I'll make a long story short but I more or less stumbled into teaching a group of school aged kids Karate basics during a time when I worked in Africa. so I guess we had a portion of traditional Japanese studied by a Black guy, passed on to a Whitey, and then relayed on to some Black people. We just need to find a Black sensei in Japan to complete the circle.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 20, 2018, 10:55:28 pm
My Ukrainian mom taught me judo from almost as soon as I was able to walk.   Tell you what, you get in the gym, train for 5 years, and when you think you're ready for me, go back to the gym and train for 5 more years.  :P   :D

 -k

Could u take rhonda roussey in your prime?
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 20, 2018, 10:55:48 pm
YOU ****!

That's right, I'm wearing Cuban linen and drinking Mexican booze!  Whatcha gonna do?

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 20, 2018, 11:00:23 pm
Judo is one of the best martial arts.

I took Taekwondo for several years, got fairly high up.  Has it's uses for kicking techniques but has no ground game whatsoever and is full of your typical pre-MMA martial arts hogwash that wasn't tested in real fights but looks cool in movies.

Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 20, 2018, 11:00:35 pm
Mom learned judo at university, and was supposedly very good at it.  She says she was a black belt, although that's pretty meaningless.  Imbued with Heavy Duty Ukrainian Farm Girl size and strength, mom was very formidable according to legend. As for me, I competed for quite a while, and quite successfully.  If I had continued to compete, who knows how far I might have gotten.  The word "harmony" really never appeared in mom's vocabulary, and judo as practiced in my family is pretty **** intense. Lessons I learned tended to focus on ideas like "if you trip somebody in this position, you land with their full body weight, and yours, on their shoulder. It'll **** 'em up."

For some reason, that makes me think of "Sensei Rex" from Napoleon Dynamite.  I can't shake it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E



Sensei Rex wouldn't have lasted 30 seconds before being laughed out of my dojo. I hate the attempts to Americanize karate.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Omni on May 20, 2018, 11:02:42 pm
Judo is one of the best martial arts.

I took Taekwondo for several years, got fairly high up.  Has it's uses for kicking techniques but has no ground game whatsoever and is full of your typical pre-MMA martial arts hogwash that wasn't tested in real fights but looks cool in movies.

That's because Taikwondo is more or less a dance.
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 21, 2018, 10:43:47 am
That's because Taikwondo is more or less a dance.

well not really, a kick to the face isn't a dance, it just emphasizes kicking and little else so it's one-dimensional.  Lots of MMA guys like Edson Barboza (black belt) have Taekwondo backgrounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eeaRLfyEJY
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 21, 2018, 11:06:26 am
People know Joe Rogan from being on UFC broadcasts, or from doing stand-up comedy, or News Radio, or maybe from his podcast where he smokes a bunch of chiba-chiba and talks about stuff, but he was also a high level taekwondo competitor when he was young.  The speed and power of these kicks is pretty scary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWC6x4Qqwe4

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 21, 2018, 11:07:19 am
Hey, look at us! Wearing Cuban linen, drinking Mexican booze, and ripping off Asian martial arts!  We're awful people!

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 21, 2018, 01:54:30 pm
Hey, guess what's for lunch?  That's right, HUEVOS RANCHEROS, ****!  Howdya like me now??

 -k
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation Culture
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 21, 2018, 02:09:34 pm
Hey, guess what's for lunch?  That's right, HUEVOS RANCHEROS, ****!  Howdya like me now??

 -k

Make sure you pronounce the “huevos” correctly, or you may inadvertently say “testicles”.  A Guatemalan lady told me this when I ordered said dish in her restaurant.