Canadian Political Events

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: MH on April 25, 2018, 05:09:37 am

Title: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: MH on April 25, 2018, 05:09:37 am
https://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-the-myth-of-real-america-just-wont-go-away/

Although this is basically a message of disunity, you can't really disagree without becoming the subject of the essay itself.  So it's a double-bind of subjectivity and that's what post-modernist philosophy is all about.  For sure there are a lot of examples of double-standards from those who have controlled the narrative, and that's the strongest stuff in here.

Parting message:

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We are as a culture moving on to a future with more people and more voices and more possibilities. Some people are being left behind, not because the future is intolerant of them but because they are intolerant of this future. White men, Protestants from the dominant culture are welcome, but as Chris Evans noted, the story isn’t going to be about them all the time, and they won’t always be the ones telling it. It’s about all of us. White Protestants are already a minority and non-white people will become a voting majority in a few decades. This country has room for everybody who believes that there’s room for everybody. For those who don’t—well, that’s partly a battle about who controls the narrative and who it’s about.

See if you can temper your reactions.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: guest4 on April 25, 2018, 07:49:40 am
I suppose if what keeps a culture culture or country exisrent are its systems of government, finance and social traditions then it hardly matters what the religion or ethnicity of its citizens are.  It seems to me that over the very long term, White people will become the minority around the world, if not cease to exist altogether, purely based on lack of procreation.   

So, if someone says they are concerned about Canada's future, is it fair to ask if they are they worried about it as a country or about Canada as a country dominated by White people?

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See if you can temper your reactions
Hahaha.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 25, 2018, 07:54:55 am
I suppose if what keeps a culture culture or country exisrent are its systems of government, finance and social traditions then it hardly matters what the religion or ethnicity of its citizens are.  It seems to me that over the very long term, White people will become the minority around the world, if not cease to exist altogether, purely based on lack of procreation.   

So, if someone says they are concerned about Canada's future, is it fair to ask if they are they worried about it as a country or about Canada as a country dominated by White people?
Hahaha.

Low procreation isn't a white thing, it's an affluent thing. If people come to this country and enjoy the benefits of what this country offers, they'll choose to have less or no kids as well.

I know plenty of non-white DINKS.

AND don't you imagine all that white trash working class Trump voter that you all deride don't have a high birth rate?
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: MH on April 25, 2018, 08:09:04 am
I suppose if what keeps a culture culture or country exisrent are its systems of government, finance and social traditions then it hardly matters what the religion or ethnicity of its citizens are. 

Sounds good in theory.  Maybe more so over the long run.

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It seems to me that over the very long term, White people will become the minority around the world, if not cease to exist altogether, purely based on lack of procreation.   

BLORK... cough cough... WILL become ?

https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-break-down-the-racial-demographics-of-the-human-species-by-percentage

This says 33% currently.

 
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: guest4 on April 25, 2018, 08:11:13 am
Low procreation isn't a white thing, it's an affluent thing. If people come to this country and enjoy the benefits of what this country offers, they'll choose to have less or no kids as well.
True, thanks for the reminder.

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AND don't you image all that white trash working class Trump voter that you all deride don't have a high birth rate?

"You all"?  What is the point of this grouping-and-accusation you have done here? 
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 25, 2018, 08:14:58 am
"You all"?  What is the point of this grouping-and-accusation you have done here?

There was a Type O. I meant to say don't You IMAGINE all. Just as low birthrate is a sign of affluence, high birthrate is a sign of poverty.

So there are places full of white people which will still be full of white people having lots of kids.

Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 25, 2018, 08:18:23 am
I also kind of resent that WASP Men are on this Island. As if the descriptor "Protestant" is a mostly white thing. Plenty of Latinos, Blacks and Asians are Protestant. Not to mention Catholics.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: kimmy on April 25, 2018, 08:54:04 am
There was a Type O. I meant to say don't You IMAGINE all. Just as low birthrate is a sign of affluence, high birthrate is a sign of poverty.

So there are places full of white people which will still be full of white people having lots of kids.

The anecdotal evidence I see supports this.  The brokest, dumbest white-people I know are having lots of kids, while the smarter and more successful ones are carefully strategizing their child-raising plans so that the financial resources, career impacts, home ownership details, and so-on are all carefully accounted for. I suspect it's not just white-people doing this either.   In natural selection terms, intelligence and planning are now negative traits that are actively weeded out of the gene pool by causing birth-rates.

The movie Idiocracy is based on exactly this premise... I have come to view it as not a comedy but rather a precognitive documentary.  Highly recommend, must-watch.


 -k
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: kimmy on April 25, 2018, 09:00:46 am
https://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-the-myth-of-real-america-just-wont-go-away/

I just started reading this, but I really liked the following passage she writes to illustrate her premise:

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It is this population we are constantly asked to pay more attention to and forgive even when they hate us or seek to harm us. It is toward them we are all supposed to direct our empathy. The exhortations are everywhere. PBS News Hour featured a quiz by Charles Murray in March that asked “Do You Live in a Bubble?” The questions assumed that if you didn’t know people who drank cheap beer and drove pick-up trucks and worked in factories you lived in an elitist bubble. Among the questions: “Have you ever lived for at least a year in an American community with a population under 50,000 that is not part of a metropolitan area and is not where you went to college? Have you ever walked on a factory floor? Have you ever had a close friend who was an evangelical Christian?”

The quiz is essentially about whether you are in touch with working-class small-town white Christian America, as though everyone who’s not Joe the Plumber is Maurice the Elitist. We should know them, the logic goes; they do not need to know us. Less than 20 percent of Americans are white evangelicals, only slightly more than are Latino. Most Americans are urban. The quiz delivers, yet again, the message that the 80 percent of us who live in urban areas are not America, treats non-Protestant (including the quarter of this country that is Catholic) and non-white people as not America, treats many kinds of underpaid working people (salespeople, service workers, farmworkers) who are not male industrial workers as not America. More Americans work in museums than work in coal, but coalminers are treated as sacred beings owed huge subsidies and the sacrifice of the climate, and museum workers—well, no one is talking about their jobs as a totem of our national identity.

 -k
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 25, 2018, 09:51:10 am
I will say that Rural North American culture is something very unique and only really found here.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: guest4 on April 25, 2018, 10:22:03 am
I will say that Rural North American culture is something very unique and only really found here.

Why do you say that?  I would expect that rural, conservative/religious communities would tend to be similar around the world, but perhaps you have some insight or knowledge I lack? 
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 25, 2018, 10:30:59 am
Why do you say that?  I would expect that rural, conservative/religious communities would tend to be similar around the world, but perhaps you have some insight or knowledge I lack?

And they would have their own culture.

Country music/rural culture is a North American creation. It's got its pros and most certainly has its cons. But it's unique.

Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: cybercoma on April 25, 2018, 12:36:46 pm
A rose by any other name is still a rose and the entire system of political economy in the West is based on the Protestant "narrative." So long as we are all bound to that system, the "white Protestant male" narrative is still the universal. Even this article is predicated on the disjunction between white male Protestant against what it's not. The rest are still the Other and our culture, government, laws, economic system, in a word our social institutions are universalized aspects of the Protestant narrative. Breaking that narrative would literally involve a radical re-organization of social reality.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: SirJohn on April 25, 2018, 06:56:38 pm
The anecdotal evidence I see supports this.  The brokest, dumbest white-people I know are having lots of kids, while the smarter and more successful ones are carefully strategizing their child-raising plans so that the financial resources, career impacts, home ownership details, and so-on are all carefully accounted for. I suspect it's not just white-people doing this either.   In natural selection terms, intelligence and planning are now negative traits that are actively weeded out of the gene pool by causing birth-rates.

Uh... yeah. I hadn't gotten that, but it makes sense. We briefly discussed this a few weeks back, talking about how to increase the birth rate, and I pointed out poor people have more kids than rich people. So money isn't the issue. So what IS the issue?

If the poor are made up, as they are likely to be, of people with lower intellectual capabilities, drive, motivation, whatever, and they're having a lot of kids... and the more economically successful, which aside from those who inherit wealth would logically be made up of the best, the brightest, are too busy to have kids, then what's that going to do to our future?

It was once simply assumed, culturally, that marriage and children was everyone's destiny. It was why you were here. Now personal enjoyment is why we're here, and kids get in the way of that. It's harder to get promoted if you have to go home to take care of the kids, and taking that extra week in the Bahamas becomes less affordable. Plus you might have to settle for a Toyota rather than that Volvo you want. So what would motivate people to have more kids, if it's not a money thing?
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 25, 2018, 07:49:31 pm
Low procreation isn't a white thing, it's an affluent thing. If people come to this country and enjoy the benefits of what this country offers, they'll choose to have less or no kids as well.

Agreed.  It's also a cultural thing, that has come part of western modernity.  Instead of women staying home and raising kids they're choosing to work and have less kids, as well as take the contraceptive pills that modern health care provides.  Young men and women also live at home much longer in order to attain more years of education, and are more socially isolated (partly due to technology) so they're getting married older than before.

I think parents have also become "softer" to their kids, many having spoiled & sheltered their children more than say 50-100 years ago, so young adults are less independent.  Our society is so wealthy now, it's inevitable that children are more spoiled by parents.  Gone are the days when many kids moved out at 18 after high school, got a job at the factory, & quickly settled down & had a family.  For most women your goal as an adult was to find a good man to marry & have kids, that's obviously gone.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 25, 2018, 08:19:56 pm
In natural selection terms, intelligence and planning are now negative traits that are actively weeded out of the gene pool by causing birth-rates.

This is damned frightening.

On the positive, this will help slow global population growth.  I'm sure decades from now there will be a time when most people in the world use contraceptives.  I wonder if global population will eventually start to decrease at some point...

Personally I think humanity's ultimate purpose will end up being the creation of super-intelligent self-improving AI that will end up far surpassing us, probably by the end of the century, so all is kind of moot.  That's even more frightening.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: kimmy on April 25, 2018, 11:22:09 pm
Uh... yeah. I hadn't gotten that, but it makes sense. We briefly discussed this a few weeks back, talking about how to increase the birth rate, and I pointed out poor people have more kids than rich people. So money isn't the issue. So what IS the issue?

If the poor are made up, as they are likely to be, of people with lower intellectual capabilities, drive, motivation, whatever, and they're having a lot of kids... and the more economically successful, which aside from those who inherit wealth would logically be made up of the best, the brightest, are too busy to have kids, then what's that going to do to our future?

It was once simply assumed, culturally, that marriage and children was everyone's destiny. It was why you were here. Now personal enjoyment is why we're here, and kids get in the way of that. It's harder to get promoted if you have to go home to take care of the kids, and taking that extra week in the Bahamas becomes less affordable. Plus you might have to settle for a Toyota rather than that Volvo you want. So what would motivate people to have more kids, if it's not a money thing?


If I felt some sense of duty to the human race as a whole, then obviously it would greatly benefit the species for me to contribute my extraordinary genetic gifts to the gene pool.

But ... I mean, is that the point?  If it was necessary for me to have 4 or 6 or 8 kids to make sure that my tribe survived to the next generation, then yeah, I could understand feeling a little pressure to start having babies.  But there are 7+ billion people here right now, there might be twice that many before I die, and the species will probably carry on just fine without me.   The future might not have my beautiful blue eyes, flawless milk-like complexion, and flaxen hair to appreciate in an aesthetic sense, but I'm sure that they'll ... well, things will be ok without me in the gene pool.   The world doesn't need 14 billion humans, or even 7 billion for that matter.

The future will take care of itself one way or another.

 -k
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: kimmy on April 25, 2018, 11:43:29 pm
A rose by any other name is still a rose and the entire system of political economy in the West is based on the Protestant "narrative." So long as we are all bound to that system, the "white Protestant male" narrative is still the universal. Even this article is predicated on the disjunction between white male Protestant against what it's not. The rest are still the Other and our culture, government, laws, economic system, in a word our social institutions are universalized aspects of the Protestant narrative. Breaking that narrative would literally involve a radical re-organization of social reality.

When I read "Protestant" in the American context, I'm thinking less "Calvinist work ethic, Martin Luther reformation" type Protestantism  and more "Supply-Side Jesus, White Evangelicals for Trump!" type Protestantism.

 -k
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: cybercoma on April 26, 2018, 07:16:09 am
When I read "Protestant" in the American context, I'm thinking less "Calvinist work ethic, Martin Luther reformation" type Protestantism  and more "Supply-Side Jesus, White Evangelicals for Trump!" type Protestantism.

 -k
It's all part of the same package. Even those without religious mores are living with the spectre of the Calvinist work ethic. That's why people in America, far more than Canada, are putting in abhorrent work hours with little benefit. It's a moral virtue there and even without religiosity it remains a cultural virtue.

The flip side to this is that those who struggle to survive, due to structural forces that are well beyond their control mostly, are cast aside in America, again as a result of that Spectre of Calvinist asceticism. They're immoral because if they would just be more ascetic (stop spending money on such "profligate" things as an internet connection, coffee, or clothing; stop living alone and move into a boarding house; stop living near your friends and family and move to where the jobs are) then they would be more successful. Success, of course, having nothing to do with happiness and health, and everything to do with wealth. Amassing wealth shows that you have the grace of God and live an ascetic life.

Strip away God from that and you still have a moral ethic based on Protestantism that drives American culture to abhor the poor, treat them as immoral sinners, and to praise the wealthy as though they are saints, regardless of their personal character nor their means for attaining that wealth. American culture is fundamentally Protestant culture stripped of its original religious roots. It's not even remotely waning. It's demonstrated every day through popular media and in the political sphere.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: SirJohn on April 26, 2018, 12:12:21 pm

If I felt some sense of duty to the human race as a whole, then obviously it would greatly benefit the species for me to contribute my extraordinary genetic gifts to the gene pool.

But your genetics ought to be reproduced, if they're good ones. The human race would be improved by more smart blondes, wouldn't it?

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But ... I mean, is that the point?  If it was necessary for me to have 4 or 6 or 8 kids to make sure that my tribe survived to the next generation, then yeah, I could understand feeling a little pressure to start having babies.  But there are 7+ billion people here right now, there might be twice that many before I die, and the species will probably carry on just fine without me.

But in which direction will the species go if its mostly the dumb people who procreate? Will the future be filled with a downward spiral as the median IQ travels downward year by year by decade by century?

Plus, if you want to talk about tribes, will the future be filled with a worldwide caliphate as Muslims continue to have 4-5 kids apiece while Christianity fades away, too busy having fun to procreate?

Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: SirJohn on April 26, 2018, 12:15:08 pm
It's all part of the same package. Even those without religious mores are living with the spectre of the Calvinist work ethic. That's why people in America, far more than Canada, are putting in abhorrent work hours with little benefit.

Do the Chinese suffer from a Calvinist work ethic? Because they work longer hours. I'm pretty sure people from Indonesia to Pakistan put in awfully long hours too.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: cybercoma on April 26, 2018, 12:31:14 pm
Chinese, Indonesian, and Pakistanis do not have the social capital to modify American culture. You're talking about individual groups and I'm talking about the dominant culture in the United States that values wealth by literally any means.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Boges on April 26, 2018, 12:40:00 pm
Plus, if you want to talk about tribes, will the future be filled with a worldwide caliphate as Muslims continue to have 4-5 kids apiece while Christianity fades away, too busy having fun to procreate?

The whole point is that when the come here and experience a quality of living that isn't made better by dealing with a rug rat to take care of, they won't have 4-5 kids either.

Being able to take nice vacations and eat good food are more appealing than populating the world with more fundamentalists. Regardless of religion or ethnicity.

And the point was made earlier that there are plenty poor white "Chreeestians" that fulfill the procreating needs for white people.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: SirJohn on April 26, 2018, 02:24:30 pm
Chinese, Indonesian, and Pakistanis do not have the social capital to modify American culture. You're talking about individual groups and I'm talking about the dominant culture in the United States that values wealth by literally any means.

If they valued wealth by any means there'd be a lot less social welfare programs. I grant you that the uber rich, some of them, particularly those like the Koch brothers, certainly seem to fall into the category you're describing. I do not think they constitute a dominant culture. Most people work as hard as they think they need to to acquire the lifestyle they can. It's no different in China or India or Malaysia.

And the Chinese who come to America don't work harder, but less hard. They're still very ... focused... on acquiring the skillset and education to make their labor highly valuable, though, and they didn't acquire that need through absorbing US culture.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: SirJohn on April 26, 2018, 02:27:52 pm
The whole point is that when the come here and experience a quality of living that isn't made better by dealing with a rug rat to take care of, they won't have 4-5 kids either.

Being able to take nice vacations and eat good food are more appealing than populating the world with more fundamentalists. Regardless of religion or ethnicity.

And the point was made earlier that there are plenty poor white "Chreeestians" that fulfill the procreating needs for white people.

That wasn't my point, though. The birth rate in the Muslim world is massively higher than anywhere else. As the number of intelligent and educated 'white people' who are those most closely supportive of western civilization and culture decline will that western civilization decline, too, to be taken over by the growing Muslim world?

Btw, the most devout Christian populations in the US are Blacks and Hispanics. They are also the groups that are growing the most in the US.
Title: Re: White Protestant Male Narratives... on the wane
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 26, 2018, 05:48:40 pm
The future will take care of itself one way or another.

Not always.  Having a kid or 2 and treating them well is also a good insurance policy when you're old so you have someone there to take care of you & act in your interests.  Though sometimes ungrateful children put their parents in a retirement home or longterm care and rarely visit.