Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: MH on April 18, 2018, 05:39:39 am

Title: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on April 18, 2018, 05:39:39 am
https://globalnews.ca/news/4149786/doug-ford-minimum-wage-plan-math/

0% income tax for minimum wage means $850 tax savings, along with rolling back the minimum wage increase which begs the question:

- Isn't this more government vote buying ?
- Don't conservatives say that the working poor pay "nothing" ?  70$ a month seems like a lot to a poor person, and amounts to basic health care and social assistance insurance.


Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: cybercoma on April 18, 2018, 06:21:51 am
https://globalnews.ca/news/4149786/doug-ford-minimum-wage-plan-math/

0% income tax for minimum wage means $850 tax savings, along with rolling back the minimum wage increase which begs the question:

- Isn't this more government vote buying ?
- Don't conservatives say that the working poor pay "nothing" ?  70$ a month seems like a lot to a poor person, and amounts to basic health care and social assistance insurance.
ending the wage increase actually reduces their net earnings. Being paid more, yet still paying taxes would earn them more in a year.

So congrats Doug. You’ve fooled people into thinking they’ll have more when (1) they’ll have less and (2) the government will also have less revenues,
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on April 18, 2018, 06:49:34 am
"less revenues" = "lower revenues"

This is the epitome of Republican politics right here.  Then again, Wynne is the epitome of Liberal politics.

I pine for a Prairie NDPer of days past....
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: cybercoma on April 18, 2018, 11:13:38 am
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4623450

The proportionate advantage of the wage increase is even greater for part-time workers. For someone working 25 hours a week:

* Ford's plan would provide a tax credit of about $396 a year.
* the $15/hr minimum wage would provide extra take-home pay of about $970 a year.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 11:48:01 am
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

And the rest? They keep voting for parties that offer to give them more stuff, and for more and more income redistribution. Andrea Horvath's platform calls for even more free stuff, and she says she'll 'ask the rich to pay just a little more'. Of course, by 'the rich' she doesn't mean those with limousines. She means doctors, lawyers, small businessmen, and people like me. And she's not the only one. Every budget, every election, people like her and Wynne ask 'the rich' to pay 'just a little more' so that the poor - defined as virtually everyone else, pays nothing. The tax base keeps narrowing as more and more people are removed from it, and these people will then bleat about their poor lot in life and demand more goodies they aren't paying for.

I don't like Ford's promise because it plays into that mentality that you vote for whatever party gives you the most free stuff. But realistically, minimum wage earners pay no taxes now anyway. Once you figure in the basic personal amounts for both federal and Ontario taxes, and basic deductions most lower earners look forward to tax time as the time of year they get a big fat cheque from the government for their refund.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 18, 2018, 12:38:49 pm
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

And the rest? They keep voting for parties that offer to give them more stuff, and for more and more income redistribution. Andrea Horvath's platform calls for even more free stuff, and she says she'll 'ask the rich to pay just a little more'. Of course, by 'the rich' she doesn't mean those with limousines. She means doctors, lawyers, small businessmen, and people like me. And she's not the only one. Every budget, every election, people like her and Wynne ask 'the rich' to pay 'just a little more' so that the poor - defined as virtually everyone else, pays nothing. The tax base keeps narrowing as more and more people are removed from it, and these people will then bleat about their poor lot in life and demand more goodies they aren't paying for.

I don't like Ford's promise because it plays into that mentality that you vote for whatever party gives you the most free stuff. But realistically, minimum wage earners pay no taxes now anyway. Once you figure in the basic personal amounts for both federal and Ontario taxes, and basic deductions most lower earners look forward to tax time as the time of year they get a big fat cheque from the government for their refund.

In Canada the total income taxes collected are paid by 67% of workers. And yes the rest have wages too low to be required to pay income tax. That of course doesn't mean they don't pay sales taxes on whatever they buy so they do contribute in that way.
It is interesting though to hear you on the one hand try to convince us all of how "rich" you are, and then turn around and bitch about having to pay a higher rate. I guess you would like to get yourself into that 1% bracket but you ain't making it so you're pissed off. This will really get in your craw as well, I worked for a good many years rotating overseas and so was able to avail myself of the OETC. Made for nice checks back from the CRA.   
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 02:26:23 pm
In Canada the total income taxes collected are paid by 67% of workers. And yes the rest have wages too low to be required to pay income tax. That of course doesn't mean they don't pay sales taxes on whatever they buy so they do contribute in that way.

And get that money refunded by GST refunds.

Several years ago, which is several years of "let's have the rich just pay a little more" ago, I posted a cite which said that 97% of taxes were paid by the top 50% of earners, while the lower 50% paid 3%. I would suppose that by now that 3% has fallen to 0. And I don't imagine for one second that our tax system is LESS progressive than the one the Republicans just put in place. So if the top 20% pay 87% there, that's probably the case here.

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It is interesting though to hear you on the one hand try to convince us all of how "rich" you are, and then turn around and bitch about having to pay a higher rate. I guess you would like to get yourself into that 1% bracket but you ain't making it so you're pissed off. This will really get in your craw as well, I worked for a good many years rotating overseas and so was able to avail myself of the OETC. Made for nice checks back from the CRA.

The complete absence of logic in this post is of course, standard fare for you. Somehow you're trying to suggest I'm ticked off not because I pay high taxes but because I'm not in the 1% (a completely arbitrary figure btw). Then you go on to brag about paying no taxes yourself. And of course, you're the sort whose vote depends on who offers the most free stuff.

Someone with a better grasp of logic, or at least an average IQ, would probably figure someone bitching about high taxes probably earns a substantial amount of income in order to pay those taxes, but I suppose neither of those prevails in your case.


Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2018, 02:43:40 pm
87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: guest4 on April 18, 2018, 02:49:29 pm
And of course, you're the sort whose vote depends on who offers the most free stuff.
Thought you couldn't read minds.

Lacking your amazing ability to read people's minds I

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: guest4 on April 18, 2018, 02:55:38 pm
The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.

Nope.  He's posted about how people like police, firefighters etc. in Canada are overpaid already, relative to other countries.  He has an odd idea of how this should all work..

Plan:
1.  Reduce wages wherever possible;
2.  Increase taxes on lower earners;
3.  Decrease the taxes he pays.

Result:
1.  Make more people less able to afford necessities;
2.  Make even more people even less able to afford necessities;
3.  Reduced government services and infrastructure due to reduced tax revenue.
4.  Make him evee richer.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 02:57:04 pm
The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.

This belief that people should be paid according to their needs, as opposed to their value is pure Marxism.

Of course, what you people have done is actually expanded the definition of 'needs'. It's no longer acceptable that they merely get paid enough for food, clothing and shelter. Now they need to be paid enough to have a comfortable life.

As for my 'robbing them of their labour', comrade, I work for myself, and get my money from largely foreign entities. The only people who work for me are the ones who shovel my snow and cut my grass.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 03:01:19 pm
Nope.  He's posted about how people like police, firefighters etc. in Canada are overpaid already, relative to other countries.  He has an odd idea of how this should all work..

Plan:
1.  Reduce wages wherever possible;
2.  Increase taxes on lower earners;
3.  Decrease the taxes I pay.

Simplistic and dishonest, as per your usual. My belief in Capitalism does, I know, distress you socialists, but all my economic beliefs are purely in line with Capitalist economic theory. People should be paid according to what their value is to the market, not according to their 'needs' - which is the way socialists would have it.

And government workers should not be an exception to this. They should be paid whatever is necessary to attract and retain sufficient numbers of capable employees to do the job. No more, no less. Clearly police, firefighters, teachers, bus drivers etc. are paid far more than is necessary. You could attract sufficient people for far less.

Benefits should have responsibilities. If you're a part of a society and benefit from it you ought to be helping to pay for it. If you're not then you're a freeloader living off others.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: guest4 on April 18, 2018, 03:22:13 pm
Simplistic and dishonest, as per your usual. My belief in Capitalism does, I know, distress you socialists, but all my economic beliefs are purely in line with Capitalist economic theory. People should be paid according to what their value is to the market, not according to their 'needs' - which is the way socialists would have it.

And government workers should not be an exception to this. They should be paid whatever is necessary to attract and retain sufficient numbers of capable employees to do the job. No more, no less. Clearly police, firefighters, teachers, bus drivers etc. are paid far more than is necessary. You could attract sufficient people for far less.

Benefits should have responsibilities. If you're a part of a society and benefit from it you ought to be helping to pay for it. If you're not then you're a freeloader living off others.

Its merely an accident that you have succeeded as well as yiu have, materially.  It has nothing to do with your value as a person or even your value to the economy.   Without the low wage earners you put yourself so high above, this country would grind to a halt. 

But you are persuading me of one thing:  more socialism and less capitilsm is absolutely the goal.  Its only taken a couple of years of being exposed to your "arguments" to show me the clear path to a more humane and inclusive society.   You should be proud of your persuasive abilities.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: cybercoma on April 18, 2018, 04:11:59 pm
This belief that people should be paid according to their needs, as opposed to their value is pure Marxism.
They’re not paid according to either. The value of what they create is exploited. Others profit off it, while they receive subsistence wages and even then that doesn’t happen. To suggest that the value of labour can be below subsistence is a ludicrous proposition, since even slavery required the means to keep your slaves fed, clothed, and sheltered. Walmart today doesn’t even have to pay that since YOU bail them out with your taxes. If you’ve got a problem with how much you pay to support people who can’t support themselves, blame those in charge of the economic conditions of our society, not those being screwed by it.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2018, 04:25:36 pm
How is Ford going to track minimum wage earners? All taxes are based on total income, not your rate of pay. I guess Ford is going to spend a few more billion revamping the tax system to make those account, or perhaps several tens of billion to create Ontario's own tax system because the CRA is not under his control.

Deficits will spiral out of control under a financially, business, and fiscally incompetent Doug Ford.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 06:25:56 pm
Its merely an accident that you have succeeded as well as yiu have, materially.

Seriously? You think those who have had more success  have only luck to blame? You don't think little things like intelligence, talent, drive and perseverance might be involved?

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Without the low wage earners you put yourself so high above, this country would grind to a halt.

I don't put myself above them, shrew. And without me and the others like me who pay 90% of the government's bills, just where do you think this country would be?

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But you are persuading me of one thing:  more socialism and less capitilsm is absolutely the goal.  Its only taken a couple of years of being exposed to your "arguments" to show me the clear path to a more humane and inclusive society.   You should be proud of your persuasive abilities.

Yes, if only people like you and the others on this site could make of us the same paradise as Venezuela has become.
 
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2018, 06:32:13 pm
And without me and the others like me who pay 90% of the government's bills, just where do you think this country would be?

Not it was Atlas that had the weight of the world on his shoulders, not you.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 06:35:18 pm
They’re not paid according to either. The value of what they create is exploited.

What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?

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Others profit off it, while they receive subsistence wages and even then that doesn’t happen.

Subsistence wages? The only people who get subsistence wages are those at the bottom. So maybe that should inspire them to improve their skillset so they make more? That's what it did for me, after all.

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To suggest that the value of labour can be below subsistence is a ludicrous proposition, since even slavery required the means to keep your slaves fed, clothed, and sheltered.

I didn't make any claim regarding subsistence. I merely pointed out that capitalism gives people payment in keeping with the value of their labour to the marketplace. If you want to earn a higher wage you need to increase your value by increasing your skills. And by the way, you seem to have forgotten why we work in the first place. We trade our labour for money to buy food, clothing and shelter. What you're complaining about is that some of the lower paid jobs ONLY do that, and don't give people luxuries. So what?

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Walmart today doesn’t even have to pay that since YOU bail them out with your taxes. If you’ve got a problem with how much you pay to support people who can’t support themselves, blame those in charge of the economic conditions of our society, not those being screwed by it.

Walmart pays enough to get by on. My basic complaint is that socialism is twisting our society to the point where the majority of voters have no economic responsibilities to support the government's they're voting for, and thus no concerns whatever with governments which increase taxes and debt. In fact, many of the socialist set get furious at the mere suggestion the government might cut back some of those free services they get, and castigate those who call for such things as immoral! They also, of course, as in this topic, get furious at those who suggest that they ought to be contributing something to the upkeep of the government they're allowed to vote for.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: cybercoma on April 18, 2018, 07:56:59 pm
What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?
They, along with everyone in the supply-chain, create the means of profit for the exploitative Walton family and majority shareholders. Their earnings completely disproportionate to the actual value they bring to the enterprise.

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Subsistence wages? The only people who get subsistence wages are those at the bottom. So maybe that should inspire them to improve their skillset so they make more? That's what it did for me, after all.
It’s a bread about minimum wage. No shit.

To your other point, the system is predicated on people at the bottom who are exploited. You give an abstract solution, so let me frame it as an abstract problem. What happens when EVERYONE improves their skills? Who is left to do the jobs that keep society running?
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I didn't make any claim regarding subsistence. I merely pointed out that capitalism gives people payment in keeping with the value of their labour to the marketplace. If you want to earn a higher wage you need to increase your value by increasing your skills. And by the way, you seem to have forgotten why we work in the first place. We trade our labour for money to buy food, clothing and shelter. What you're complaining about is that some of the lower paid jobs ONLY do that, and don't give people luxuries. So what?
Subsistence wages is the capitalist form. Business MUST reduce their costs to ZERO. That means paying labour as little as peossible. The minimum you can pay is just enough for them to “get by.” Since full employment is impossible in a capitalist economy, EVERYONE’s wages are driven down by a reserve army of unemployed labour that capitalists use to threaten their workforce. You didn’t say “subsistence,” but it is inherent in the ideas you’re throwing around.
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Walmart pays enough to get by on. My basic complaint is that socialism is twisting our society to the point where the majority of voters have no economic responsibilities to support the government's they're voting for, and thus no concerns whatever with governments which increase taxes and debt. In fact, many of the socialist set get furious at the mere suggestion the government might cut back some of those free services they get, and castigate those who call for such things as immoral! They also, of course, as in this topic, get furious at those who suggest that they ought to be contributing something to the upkeep of the government they're allowed to vote for.
Enough to get by on?

Ontario’s min wage is $11.40 per hour. Full time employees get 2080 hours per year. That’s $23712 per year, gross income. They say housing should cost you no more than 25% of your income. Have you seen many mortgages or apartments for less than $500/month? Or maybe you think people with full time jobs should cram together with strangers like the boarding houses of the past? The wages paid by these billionaires is an affront to the dignity of their workers.

But what do you care? You got yours, so fuck those who are struggling, right? They’re masters of their own destiny, as long as you ignore the fact that the capitalist system cannot, has not, and will not ever have full employment. You propose an impossible utopia of everyone being able to better hemselves and get out of that condition. Yet everyone improving is not even a remote possibility. Society requires people in those jobs and nothing they do will improve their lot. If one person leaves, another takes their place. There is no end where ALL have the dignity of enjoying the true profits of their labour. In capitalist society everyone has the freedom to be exploited.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 18, 2018, 08:01:38 pm
What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?



They create revenue for the company that pays them to do those jobs. What does an airline pilot create?
\Your arrogance is probably equally as overwhelming as your bigotry.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 09:12:38 pm
They, along with everyone in the supply-chain, create the means of profit for the exploitative Walton family and majority shareholders. Their earnings completely disproportionate to the actual value they bring to the enterprise.

That's a meaningless statement. By that logic any time anyone starts a business and hires anyone they're exploiting them. The Waltons had an idea. They started a store. They had ambition. They expanded and multipled their outlets. They had drive, smarts and worked their asses off. And btw, I don't shop at Wal-mart's and never have because I don't like their business practices.

Nevertheless. They created the enterprise. The others are simply unskilled people who agreed to exchange their time for the money the Waltons paid them. It's an agreement freely entered into  by both sides.

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To your other point, the system is predicated on people at the bottom who are exploited. You give an abstract solution, so let me frame it as an abstract problem. What happens when EVERYONE improves their skills?

There will always be a scale of skills. By the standards of a few  generations ago almost everyone is skilled. Everyone can read, for one thing. Virtually everyone can use a computer. That sure as hell wasn't the case in the 1980s.

And there is always a learning curve. Those who start out have few skills. When I first worked in an office I did data entry. That was my only skill. Then I became a low level clerk, and as my skills accumulated I was paid more and promoted higher. That's how the system works.

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Who is left to do the jobs that keep society running?Subsistence wages is the capitalist form.

Nonsense. Nobody forces you to continue working for subsistence wages.  You improve your skillset and earn more. Or... if you don't have the drive, or motivation or ability, then yes, you live on subsistence wages.

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The minimum you can pay is just enough for them to “get by.” Since full employment is impossible in a capitalist economy, EVERYONE’s wages are driven down by a reserve army of unemployed labour that capitalists use to threaten their workforce.

Except we know that's not true. There have been many, many instances where unemployment became low enough, including in Alberta recently, as well as in any number of US states, where even fast food workers were in short supply and could command much higher than subsistence wages. This has been short-circuited, to some degree, in Canada, by the federal government bringing in temporary foreign workers to do those jobs, thus sparing businesses the need to increase wages. I have been 100% against that policy.

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Ontario’s min wage is $11.40 per hour. Full time employees get 2080 hours per year. That’s $23712 per year, gross income. They say housing should cost you no more than 25% of your income. Have you seen many mortgages or apartments for less than $500/month?

I lived on considerably less than that much of my life. Ontario's minimum wage is $14hr btw. But never mind. If you get $2,000 a month gross, given you pay virtually no taxes (or what you do pay gets refunded) you can, at least in this city, find an apartment, without sharing, for $800 which includes heat and water. Pay probably $75 month for hydro and what else is absolutely necessary but your food? And you've got plenty for that, plus cable and internet.

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But what do you care? You got yours, so fuck those who are struggling, right? They’re masters of their own destiny, as long as you ignore the fact that the capitalist system cannot, has not, and will not ever have full employment.

No one ever said the Capitalist system was without flaws. But every other proposal has proven to be disastrous. And the Capitalist system has uplifted billions from poverty. The world is richer than it has ever been, and I'm not simply talking about the 0.01% (the actual rich). When you compare the ordinary standard of living of the bulk of people around the world, those in Capitalist nations have all risen enormously in the last century. Even those in most third world nations have risen enormously.

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You propose an impossible utopia of everyone being able to better hemselves and get out of that condition.

Not at all. I fully support social welfare programs that help those who are unable to support themselves. What I don't support is removing the incentive, which human nature requires, for people without skills to improve their skills and better themselves. If I had been able to earn a 'guaranteed income' back when I was working the midnight shift as a security guard or an all-night service station, or an evening janitor,  I would have quit rather than do those jobs. I would have quit my data entry job, too. What motivated me was my desire to improve my life by continually learning new things and applying for different jobs.

One of the clear memories of my life is trying to decide whether to go and take yet another government test for a job. It was in the early morning and I was working an evening shift would would not see me in bed before 2am. I finally decided to sacrifice the sleep and just go for it. It was a very close decision since I really like my sleep and I really was pessimistic at the time. But I did go and I did get hired. Where socialism fails is in refusing to take human nature into account. Remove the economic incentive to work harder, longer or improve yourself and many, many people will do none of that. That's why socialism has been a catastrophe wherever it's been employed, and has only succeded in LOWERING everyone's standard of living across the board.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 09:14:01 pm
They create revenue for the company that pays them to do those jobs. What does an airline pilot create?
\Your arrogance is probably equally as overwhelming as your bigotry.

But vastly surpassed by your ignorance and petulant whining about other people having different opinions than you.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 18, 2018, 09:19:45 pm
But vastly surpassed by your ignorance and petulant whining about other people having different opinions than you.

Once again that's rich coming from you. But anyway I guess you think I'm supposed to go to Starbucks and make my own coffee and then pay for it, and then I guess wash the dishes too eh?
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 18, 2018, 09:24:00 pm
Once again that's rich coming from you. But anyway I guess you think I'm supposed to go to Starbucks and make my own coffee and then pay for it, and then I guess wash the dishes too eh?

Why would I care what you do or where you went?
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 18, 2018, 09:30:51 pm
Why would I care what you do or where you went?

Well you've demonstrated you have no idea what a Starbucks is all about, even though you weigh in as if you did.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2018, 09:49:25 pm
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 18, 2018, 09:55:25 pm
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.

I guess we should point out to him that socialism allows capitalism. But then he's too worried over having to pay some tax to pay attention.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: kimmy on April 19, 2018, 12:00:35 am
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

Holy fuck.

You know, poor people would pay more taxes if they had more money.  FUCK. It's not complicated. 


And the rest?

Seniors?  Children? Students? The unemployed? Others who have very little or no income at all?

Yes, I imagine those people will continue to pay very low taxes, because YOU CAN'T GET BLOOD FROM A STONE.



 -k
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2018, 12:22:50 am
Holy fuck.

You know, poor people would pay more taxes if they had more money.  FUCK. It's not complicated. 


Seniors?  Children? Students? The unemployed? Others who have very little or no income at all?

Yes, I imagine those people will continue to pay very low taxes, because YOU CAN'T GET BLOOD FROM A STONE.



 -k

Big business likes small wages. Flow that money into the CEO's pocket and fuck everybody else. Trump was effective at it partially by simply defaulting on payments to contractors and declaring bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 11:16:20 am
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.

Did I mention Communism? It seems to me I've mentioned Socialism and Marxism. Marx was a Socialist philosopher who posited Socialism as a midterm step before reaching the 'utopian' goal of Communism.

Back to you, genius.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 11:19:52 am
Holy fuck.

You know, poor people would pay more taxes if they had more money.  FUCK. It's not complicated.

So your position is 80% of the population is poor? Have I got that right? 80% of the population is too poor to pay taxes on the government services they love so much. They can, of course, afford cars, mortgages, cell phones, video games and players, big screen TVs, laptops, high speed internet,  trips down south every year and all the rest, but taxes are just too fucking hard on them.

Your indignation at the thought anyone but 'rich' people should perhaps contribute to the state which so many of you want to step in to take care of every single problem in life is an indication of the socialist mentality you've grown up with. Hate the rich. Love the poor. Bring in more poor and love them more, and hate anyone who has more than we do. And after we make the rich pay more we'll sneer at them and call them names and hate them some more for being better off than us. Meanwhile we'll enjoy all the things the state provides that we don't pay for, and feel incredible noble about our generosity in giving money we don't own and didn't make to the poor.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 11:23:50 am
So there's this club. It has 1000 members, but only 200 pay membership fees. The rest are basically there because the 200 are generous. The 200 pay all the bills through their membership fees. Then there's a meeting and lots of people (who pay no membership fee) start demanding that the club buy new giant flat screens. When it's pointed out the club is actually having to borrow money to pay for stuff as it is they just suggest the membership fees be increased.

Of course when those who actually pay for the already high membership fees protest the ones proposing the new stuff are outraged and accuse them of being greedy and immoral for not wanting to pay higher fees so they can enjoy the new flat screens. Damn those fee-paying members for their greed! Power to the (non fee-paying) members!
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2018, 11:48:08 am
So there's this club. It has 1000 members, but only 200 pay membership fees. The rest are basically there because the 200 are generous. The 200 pay all the bills through their membership fees. Then there's a meeting and lots of people (who pay no membership fee) start demanding that the club buy new giant flat screens. When it's pointed out the club is actually having to borrow money to pay for stuff as it is they just suggest the membership fees be increased.

Of course when those who actually pay for the already high membership fees protest the ones proposing the new stuff are outraged and accuse them of being greedy and immoral for not wanting to pay higher fees so they can enjoy the new flat screens. Damn those fee-paying members for their greed! Power to the (non fee-paying) members!

Obviously your "club" has nothing to do with Canadian taxpayers or the bill payers would equal 670 members.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 11:51:41 am
Obviously your "club" has nothing to do with Canadian taxpayers or the bill payers would equal 670 members.

If 87% of the taxes are paid by 20% of people in the US I'm assuming it's more like 90% here. So the 200 pay 90% and then another 10% is shared among, maybe another 100-150. But those people pay tiny membership fees in comparison.

The non-fee paying members are pretty classless to demand a rate increase from the fee-paying members to pay for their goodies. I mean, talk about gall!
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2018, 11:57:06 am
If 87% of the taxes are paid by 20% of people in the US I'm assuming it's more like 90% here. So the 200 pay 90% and then another 10% is shared among, maybe another 100-150. But those people pay tiny membership fees in comparison.

The non-fee paying members are pretty classless to demand a rate increase from the fee-paying members to pay for their goodies. I mean, talk about gall!

Yes it's a sliding scale, the more you make the more you pay. The amount of "club members" who pay no "membership" fees in Canada is ~33%
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: guest4 on April 19, 2018, 11:59:01 am
I'm assuming
This is why so many of your arguments fail; you substituye assumptions for facts.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 19, 2018, 01:57:43 pm
I have decided to mend my ways. Fuck the poor, they only exist in order to make my life easier.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: cybercoma on April 19, 2018, 02:26:15 pm
Yes it's a sliding scale, the more you make the more you pay. The amount of "club members" who pay no "membership" fees in Canada is ~33%
Considering 50% of Canadians have a personal income at or below $32000 this is hardly surprising.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 02:34:19 pm
This is why so many of your arguments fail; you substituye assumptions for facts.

That would be an entirely valid point if it were put honestly. Unfortunately, as is your habit, it was NOT. Which is why you cut off the quote mid-sentence.

To 'assume' that our tax system is at least as progressive as the US and probably a little more, is hardly a journey into wild assed guessing.
Is it your belief our income taxes are LESS progressive than that in the US? Because that is the only case in which you might have a point to make here.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 02:43:31 pm
I have decided to mend my ways. Fuck the poor, they only exist in order to make my life easier.

You associate an opinion different from yours as somehow vindictive or cruel or hateful to 'the poor' when all we are doing is discussing which economic and tax system is better for the country - including the poor.

My issue with the taxation system is and always has been my doubt as to what the progressive taxation system does and will do to society and good governance. No, I don't like paying high taxes, of course. But I agree that taxes are the price paid for civilization. What I do resent is the suggestion from idiot progressives (and by the way, I feel the adjective is probably unnecessary as being a progressive pretty much confirms that you're an idiot) that my money belongs to society, that I didn't earn it, and that any hesitation I have in approving yet higher taxes on me is offensive as it demonstrates how greedy I am in holding back money which they feel should go to 'the poor'.

No taxation without representation was a splenditly logical complaint of the American revolutionaries. But no one considered representation without taxation. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, this leads to people voting in politicians who want to continue to grow government without regard to the expense since they don't need to pay for any of it.

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2018, 02:44:10 pm
Considering 50% of Canadians have a personal income at or below $32000 this is hardly surprising.

Yeas, and I was just trying to get sir argus a bit closer to the facts.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 19, 2018, 03:01:41 pm
idiot progressives (and by the way, I feel the adjective is probably unnecessary as being a progressive pretty much confirms that you're an idiot)

triggered
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: guest4 on April 19, 2018, 03:06:04 pm
triggered

You or SJ?  :)
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 19, 2018, 03:07:37 pm
You or SJ?

Well I didn't write a long dissertation
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2018, 03:09:00 pm
The problem with you idiot progressives is you make everything into a ridiculous moral argument when all we're doing here is theorycrafting economics  and politics which none of us has any say in anyway. You associate an opinion different from yours as somehow vindictive or cruel or hateful to 'the poor' when all we are doing is discussing which economic and tax system is better for the country - including the poor.

My issue with the taxation system is and always has been my doubt as to what the progressive taxation system does and will do to society and good governance. No, I don't like paying high taxes, of course. But I agree that taxes are the price paid for civilization. What I do resent is the suggestion from idiot progressives (and by the way, I feel the adjective is probably unnecessary as being a progressive pretty much confirms that you're an idiot) that my money belongs to society, that I didn't earn it, and that any hesitation I have in approving yet higher taxes on me is offensive as it demonstrates how greedy I am in holding back money which they feel should go to 'the poor'.

No taxation without representation was a splenditly logical complaint of the American revolutionaries. But no one considered representation without taxation. And as I have repeatedly pointed out, this leads to people voting in politicians who want to continue to grow government without regard to the expense since they don't need to pay for any of it.

"Idiot" is actually a noun. I thought all non idiots knew that. Psst-the adjective you were looking for is "idiotic"
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 03:09:50 pm
Well I didn't write a long dissertation

No, but to be fair you also didn't actually talk about the issue under discussion at all. I tried to do that, which requires, you know, words.

It says a lot about you that you consider three paragraphs, none of which was overlong, to be 'a long dissertation'. It seems you and Trump have much in common.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 19, 2018, 03:13:04 pm
"Idiot" is actually a noun. I thought all non idiots knew that. Psst-the adjective you were looking for is "idiotic"

It can be used as an adjective too, you idiot (there, now it's a noun).
And if I used a short form, so bloody what?

Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: ?Impact on April 19, 2018, 03:13:14 pm
It seems you and Trump have much in common.

Nope, not going to bite.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: kimmy on April 21, 2018, 12:54:22 pm
So your position is 80% of the population is poor? Have I got that right? 80% of the population is too poor to pay taxes on the government services they love so much. They can, of course, afford cars, mortgages, cell phones, video games and players, big screen TVs, laptops, high speed internet,  trips down south every year and all the rest, but taxes are just too fucking hard on them.

Your own claim was not that 80% of the population doesn't pay taxes.  It was that the top 20% pays 87% of taxes, in the US.

There is a world of difference between those two claims!

And when you consider the vast amounts of wealth  concentrated in the hands of the very few, it's obvious why such a small group of people pays such a vastly larger share than the rest.

To continue the breakdown you started: the bottom 80% pay just 13% of taxes.  The next 19% pay just 42% of taxes.  The other 45% is paid by just 1%.   And if you drill down even farther into that 1% you'd probably find that a similarly disproportionate share is paid by just 0.1%.

Why does such a tiny group pay such a vast share of taxes?!

Because their income dwarfs everyone else's income to such a vast degree.


Rich-guy types prefer this group-type depiction-- "our group pays this much, their group just pays that much, so obviously this is unfair to us!" -- because it obscures the incredibly vast difference in income that is the real cause of such a small group paying such a large amount of tax.

Instead of talking about "this group pays that much" and "that group pays this much" just point at the tax-bracket scale and point out the point at which you feel the marginal tax rate becomes unfair.


Your indignation at the thought anyone but 'rich' people should perhaps contribute to the state which so many of you want to step in to take care of every single problem in life is an indication of the socialist mentality you've grown up with. Hate the rich. Love the poor. Bring in more poor and love them more, and hate anyone who has more than we do. And after we make the rich pay more we'll sneer at them and call them names and hate them some more for being better off than us. Meanwhile we'll enjoy all the things the state provides that we don't pay for, and feel incredible noble about our generosity in giving money we don't own and didn't make to the poor.

I pay my taxes, and I'm hardly wealthy.  I don't object to paying taxes.  I don't object to people wondering whether we get good value for our taxes.

What I do object to is rich people complaining that poor people aren't paying enough taxes. Just having a roof over your head and food on your table is becoming an incredibly expensive proposition.   The investor class has been doing incredibly well, making sure that their companies turn in healthy profits by driving wages as low as possible and eliminating as many jobs as possible.  For these people to then complain that the people whose livelihood they've been actively working against aren't paying enough taxes is the height of absurdity.

 -k
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 21, 2018, 01:12:21 pm
People use numbers all the time to try and bolster this or that point. It's certainly not hard to see through the bias bs in sir argus' attempt.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 21, 2018, 01:24:54 pm
Your own claim was not that 80% of the population doesn't pay taxes.  It was that the top 20% pays 87% of taxes, in the US.

There is a world of difference between those two claims!

I don't take it as a world of difference. And I haven't denied that others pay some small measure of taxes. Wealth, btw, is not taxed. We're talking income. I also don't object to a progressive tax system. In fact, what I have been pointing out in this thread and others is not that "rich people" pay far too much but the impact this has on society with regard to voting patterns and political choices.

Quote
What I do object to is rich people complaining that poor people aren't paying enough taxes.

Let's forget about the term 'rich people' for now. The top 20% are not 'rich'. In order to get into the top 20% you needed an income of about $80,000 a year (in the US study). That's NOT rich people. The top 10% have incomes of at least $113k. That's not rich, either. In Canada, the top 20% make about $70k plus. Which puts most teachers, cops, firefighters, municipal bus drivers, nurses and tons of other public servants in that zone, along with doctors, software engineers, architects, etc. To say 'these are the rich people so they should pay for everything' is naïve.

Mind you, the liberals at all levels have done their best to equate 'the rich' with limosine types puffing away at big cigars in their 90th floor corner offices. But THAT class has hardly been touched at all by increased taxes. Most of those in the 20% group pay far higher rates of taxes than the likes of Warren Buffet or Bill Gates. Buffet basically said his tax rate was half what his secretary pays. And it's the same in Canada. The tax changes the liberals bring in against 'the rich' have little impact on the 0.01% that everyone seems to feel isn't paying what it should be.

But again, the focus of my posts has been on the likely political results of such an unbalanced tax system. If you pay little or nothing in taxes, then taxes simply are not of interest to you in terms of a politician who talks about increasing or decreasing them. Hey, no skin off your nose. THAT was what I basically said. It wasn't an attack on 'poor people' but a realistic assesment of the motivation for supporting parties like the Liberals and NDP who offer ever more government services (along with ever higher taxes) because they know taxes are very little issue to at least half the population, and reasonable for most of the next twenty or thirty percent.

Realistically, if you pay no or virtually no income taxes, why would you want to vote for a conservative party which is likely to cut back government services in any way? That would be against your own interests. You'd instead vote for the party that offered more stuff. It's free, after all.

And yes, there's a degree of unfairness and injustice in people who pay nothing or almost nothing voting for parties that will tax OTHER people more to pay for stuff they want.


Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: kimmy on April 21, 2018, 01:50:44 pm
I don't take it as a world of difference. And I haven't denied that others pay some small measure of taxes. Wealth, btw, is not taxed. We're talking income. I also don't object to a progressive tax system. In fact, what I have been pointing out in this thread and others is not that "rich people" pay far too much but the impact this has on society with regard to voting patterns and political choices.

Let's forget about the term 'rich people' for now. The top 20% are not 'rich'. In order to get into the top 20% you needed an income of about $80,000 a year (in the US study). That's NOT rich people. The top 10% have incomes of at least $113k. That's not rich, either. In Canada, the top 20% make about $70k plus. Which puts most teachers, cops, firefighters, municipal bus drivers, nurses and tons of other public servants in that zone, along with doctors, software engineers, architects, etc. To say 'these are the rich people so they should pay for everything' is naïve.

And I repeat that creating groups and saying "this group pays that much and that group pays this much" is dumb. I again invite you to point out the place where you feel the marginal tax rate shifts from fair to not-fair.

Mind you, the liberals at all levels have done their best to equate 'the rich' with limosine types puffing away at big cigars in their 90th floor corner offices. But THAT class has hardly been touched at all by increased taxes. Most of those in the 20% group pay far higher rates of taxes than the likes of Warren Buffet or Bill Gates. Buffet basically said his tax rate was half what his secretary pays. And it's the same in Canada. The tax changes the liberals bring in against 'the rich' have little impact on the 0.01% that everyone seems to feel isn't paying what it should be.

Well sure.  I've complained many times about the wide variety of tax dodges available to the extremely wealthy.

I read an interesting idea-- from Conrad Black, of all people.  He suggested taxing wealth, rather than income, in one of his rambling opinion columns.

In theory that would eliminate the case of the ultra-rich guy who can pull out his accounting ledgers and prove that he didn't make a penny this year... or actually lost money.

Of course it would instead create an equally challenging problem, in that the wealthy people would become very adept at proving they're actually not wealthy.


"There is no $12 million mansion. Show me on this ledger where you see a $12 million mansion."

"We are literally STANDING IN IT!"

"Show me on the ledger where it exists!"

But again, the focus of my posts has been on the likely political results of such an unbalanced tax system. If you pay little or nothing in taxes, then taxes simply are not of interest to you in terms of a politician who talks about increasing or decreasing them. Hey, no skin off your nose. THAT was what I basically said. It wasn't an attack on 'poor people' but a realistic assesment of the motivation for supporting parties like the Liberals and NDP who offer ever more government services (along with ever higher taxes) because they know taxes are very little issue to at least half the population, and reasonable for most of the next twenty or thirty percent.

Realistically, if you pay no or virtually no income taxes, why would you want to vote for a conservative party which is likely to cut back government services in any way?

If I was paying virtually no income taxes, I would be voting for the party that I thought was most likely to help me obtain an income so that I would be paying income taxes. 

No, I wouldn't be voting to cut back government services.  Cutting back government services isn't an end in itself.  If I'm a poor-person and trying to scrape by, on some combination of government services and part time income or whatever, show me how cutting back government services helps me get a full time job. Otherwise you're just making it that much harder for me to make ends meet.  If course I wouldn't vote for that.  "Ok, you might lose your home and have to live on a friend's couch... but well-to-do baby-boomers would be paying less taxes!" isn't a compelling argument to bring to voters.


If poor-people being able to vote is such a bad thing for rich-guys, why are rich-guys doing so well?


 -k
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 21, 2018, 02:06:42 pm
If I was paying virtually no income taxes, I would be voting for the party that I thought was most likely to help me obtain an income so that I would be paying income taxes. 

No, I wouldn't be voting to cut back government services.  Cutting back government services isn't an end in itself.  If I'm a poor-person and trying to scrape by, on some combination of government services and part time income or whatever, show me how cutting back government services helps me get a full time job.

The problem is that not a lot of 'poor people' have a really good grasp of macroeconomics. The government spending money on this thing and that thing and those things and subsidizing this and everything else... that doesn't really help you get a good job. Well, not unless the government hires you as a public servant anyway.

The only proven method for uplifting the wealth of a population is improving the economy, and higher taxes are a drag on an economy. Lots of government regulations are also a drag on an economy (and no, I'm not someone who thinks all regulations are wrong. Some are vital). If masses of red tape mean it takes a business years before it can build a pipeline or develop a mine or build a housing project or an office tower or a factory, with high taxes slapped on top of that, then that slows down an economy and results in fewer jobs, not more, and less opportunity, not more. Everyone here is a free trader now that Donald Trump is against it, but how many have a clue just how much free trade between provinces is hampered by masses of internal tariffs and trade barriers? Getting rid of those would result in a huge economic boost. We have a MILLION very highly paid public sector workers in Ontario. How much do you think that costs the economy?

But it's a lot easier to buy votes when you just say you're going to give people money and free daycare and free tuition and free medication and free this and free that. It's obvious. It's clear. It's in-your-face. It makes good sound bites. And if you pay little or no taxes you're going "Yeah!"

I've been saying for ten years that the way to help poorer people is not to give them money but to give them education and job/skills training. We do a shitty job of that compared to what others, like the Germans, do.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Omni on April 21, 2018, 02:17:18 pm
]

Sounds like you're suggesting the gov't use your precious tax dollars to provide job skills...heaven forbid. Oh yeah, they already do that it's called the Youth Employment Program and invests about $330 million annually.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: SirJohn on April 21, 2018, 03:43:59 pm
Sounds like you're suggesting the gov't use your precious tax dollars to provide job skills...heaven forbid. Oh yeah, they already do that it's called the Youth Employment Program and invests about $330 million annually.

Oh yeah, they don't. The 'youth employment program' has some decent aspects to it, but no, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about taking people of whatever age who either apply frequently for pogey or who apply for welfare, running them through a skills/education assessment program, and then teaching them whatever they can learn that will turn them into productive people who can support themselves.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on September 04, 2018, 11:21:39 am
https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1036918061134213120?s=19

The Star cites service industry employment rate increase...
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 04, 2018, 10:24:44 pm
https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1036918061134213120?s=19

The Star cites service industry employment rate increase...

Wow Doug Ford is doing a great job so far!  jokes, jokes.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on September 05, 2018, 05:30:21 am
YES!  Keeping the higher minimum wage was a great idea!
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 05, 2018, 05:30:29 pm
The old rule...once you give people money/benefits it's really, really hard to take them back without pissing people off lol.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on September 05, 2018, 07:16:37 pm
The old rule...once you give people money/benefits it's really, really hard to take them back without pissing people off lol.

You mean like Rent Control, Pensions, middle class income, ...
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 07, 2018, 04:49:45 pm
You mean like Rent Control, Pensions, middle class income, ...

I didn't say it's impossible.  People were upset about pensions.  Veterans are upset that the Trudeau gov changed their benefits around and reduced payments.  Middle class income isn't regulated by the gov, unless they ban manufacturing job exports etc.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 07, 2018, 04:56:15 pm
https://twitter.com/TorontoStar/status/1036918061134213120?s=19

The Star cites service industry employment rate increase...

I think we'll know more about the minimum wage effects after the end of the year so we can compare this year to previous years.  It might even take a few years to see the effects.  I'm interested to see.

One of the things I fear the effects of making it more expensive for small businesses to start up and also operate.  It will make it even harder for them to compete with big corporations who can absorb the wage costs easier, and then big corps will have even more of a stranglehold on the economy.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on September 07, 2018, 10:16:31 pm
I dunno. 

The service industry seems to be changing quite a bit.  I am paying $6 for a coffee and somebody is making that money.  Those barristas are too happy to be making $12/hr.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on September 07, 2018, 10:16:51 pm
And employment numbers tanked today so ... so much for my rosy theory.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on November 15, 2018, 06:18:31 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/patrick-brown-new-tell-all-book-1.4904663

Patrick Brown says he was the subject of a takedown, also says there are sexual misconduct allegations against Vic Fidelli ?

When is this storyline going to end ?
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: the_squid on April 25, 2020, 08:39:45 pm
This crisis has brought out the best in Doug Ford, I must say.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-raise-pay-of-front-line-coronavirus-workers-by-4-an-hour/

He has dropped the near-conspiracy, populist right-wing nonsense....   He’s led Ontario through this in a very pragmatic, science-backed way.  Not what I would have expected.

Now a pay raise for front line workers.

And calling right-wing protesters  reckless and a bunch of yahoos. 

Hopefully he realizes his cuts prior to this hasn’t helped.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: MH on April 25, 2020, 09:26:59 pm
Yeah he won a lot of respect for saying that.

Scheer couldn't tell them to get lost, but Doug Ford told the yahoos to get stuffed.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Shady on May 01, 2020, 04:33:22 pm
This crisis has brought out the best in Doug Ford, I must say.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-raise-pay-of-front-line-coronavirus-workers-by-4-an-hour/

He has dropped the near-conspiracy, populist right-wing nonsense....   He’s led Ontario through this in a very pragmatic, science-backed way.  Not what I would have expected.

Now a pay raise for front line workers.

And calling right-wing protesters  reckless and a bunch of yahoos. 

Hopefully he realizes his cuts prior to this hasn’t helped.
Unfortunately cuts are necessary.  The previous governments 15 years of reckless and irresponsible fiscal policy have made Ontario the most indebted non-country in the entire world.  Ontario spends tens of billions of dollars each year on just paying interest on its debt thanks to the previous Liberal governments. 
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: the_squid on May 11, 2020, 02:20:40 pm
Same old Doug Ford it seems...  still as stupid as ever.   He manages to parrot health officials and advise people correctly, but too dumb to do so on a personal level.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5564756

Quote
Premier Doug Ford appears to have broken COVID-19 physical distancing measures prescribed by Ontario's public health officials, saying his two daughters who live in different households visited his home over Mother's Day weekend.

Speaking to reporters at his daily briefing Monday, Ford said his family gathering was limited to six people, "direct family" only, with none of his daughters' husbands or boyfriends present.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 11, 2020, 03:08:51 pm
Same old Doug Ford it seems...  still as stupid as ever.   He manages to parrot health officials and advise people correctly, but too dumb to do so on a personal level.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5564756

Doug got together with fam this weekend, Trudeau got together with fam on Easter.  I guess it's do as I say, not as I do for our politicians.  Bunch of entitled dolts.  Real leadership guys.
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: northlandmagus on November 01, 2020, 04:16:24 pm
          Doug Ford is the perfect leader for our insane times! He is thick skinned and willing to throw sh+t back at his selfish civil service union HOG detractors!           

 It is a dark time to be a Lie-beral in Canada. The Lie-beral brand is now associated with all manner of trickery and deceit, seasoned with a nice helping of incompetence-as they handle money BADLY and LIE poorly about it! Lie-berals are now grasping desperately at straws in a futile effort to save themselves from political oblivion  and the latest `straw` is a pathetic attempt to `prove` that being Conservative is a mental disorder! The Lie-beral argument starts (as most of them do) with one fact and then flies off into cuckoo land with half truths, evasions of reality and distortions of logic.

The Lie-beral points out that Conservatives apparently have a larger `fear centre` in their brains than Lie-berals do.....so far, its possible. Then the Lie-beral tries to suggest this is a bad thing. As if being better at recognizing threats and dangers and therefore being better at long term planning to avoid trouble as a consequence is a fault!

One has only to look at Ontari-owe premier McWynnty-known to some as The Great Whore because she has sold herself, her party and OUR FUTURE to the civil service Hogs of Working Family Coalition.

For years, Lie-berals have fed the Working Family Hogs a steady diet of rich gravy in order to BUY their votes at election time and thus keep Lie-berals in power. But feeding the Hogs is a dangerous game-much like feeding Grizzly Bears in Banff.....oh yes, you get a great photo op if you handle it right......but you get MAULED if you do it wrong!

When the food runs out the danger starts.....you are just as likely to get mauled by angry bears as by angry Hogs-both of whom had quickly come to the notion that YOUR food was OWED to them as an entitlement!

This is why LIE-berals no longer rule Ontari-owe and why Our idiot Boy is in such trouble in Ottawa as well! The gravy is GONE.....the amount of red ink flowing across all LIE-beral govt books is now so great that it is even scaring Lie-berals in spite of their stunted little brain fear centres and limited ability to spot threats approaching! Poor little Wynne-bag -with her stunted little brain she never saw the Hog danger approaching!

Even worse, for years, Lie-berals closed their eyes to the gross conflict of interest engaged in by Working Family Hogs-the Hogs spent HUGE sums of money on election advertising supporting Lie-berals in defiance of fair election funding rules while Lie-berals looked the other way; secure in the knowledge that civil service Working Family was doing the dirty work-not Lie-berals and knowing that anybody who complained would be seeking help from Election Canada Hogs who also  support Lie-berals!!!!!

If corporate CEO`s had intervened in an election in such a way the Hogs and Lie-berals would have screamed for criminal charges and jail time but since Lie-berals and Hogs were benefitting there was no harm nor any foul.....just too bad for Conservative victims.....

But that was then and this is now.....the Gravy is gone and the Hogs are HUNGRY! They are getting into Grizzly BEAR mode and now looking to maul the Lie-berals for that sudden lack of gravy! The Hogs are so angry that Wynne-bagre is now changing election law to prevent the Hogs from picking on HER in the next election....she is afraid that Hogs will give their support to NDP candidates in future and that the hopes of Justin Trudope and his federal Lie-berals will be ruined next October thanks to Ontari-owe Lie-beral failure to recognize impending threats!

And of course Ontari-owe Hog teachers (as well as all other Working Family Hogs) are planning apply massive pressure and propaganda next fall to force government to give them more gravy.....just as Justin Trudope and his gang try to get re-elected.                     

Perhaos we should pity poor Justin Trudope. In his happy `what, me worry?` Lie-beral Ignorance, he assumed that he could become a great leader courtesy of nice hair, a polite manner, and some bland political platitudes recycled from speeches his father gave 30 years ago!

Sadly, there are things he overlooked. Things such as He doesn’t have any more gravy to hand out to Hogs either and is looking at the same THREATENING Hog switch to NDP!

Or what about the Russian Bear grabbing chunks of Ukraine and bullying much of Europe with Putin cast as a latter day Hitler.  And the Isis threat....just far away religious weirdos? Both  Russians and mad dog Muslims were surely comfortably far off and no threat to a Lie-beral so why worry about them? So it seemed to the brain deficient un-fearful Lie-berals! But the world IS worried and it would damage Canadian foreign affairs  not to be on side with our allies!
So poor stupid Justin has been bumbling in every political arean he enters!

He has pissed off our allies by taking the fighter jets home from Syria!
Has pissed off our Yankee allies by neglecting our NATO commitments!!

Has pissed of the Yankees by being a complete imbecile over all manner of immigration issues- with Yankees afraid that Canada will become a terrorist haven- as it has ALREADY become a haven for money launderers and organized crime thank to oblivious and “what, me worry” LIE-berals!
Has substantially damaged our economy with his carbon crap and trade scam and by his pipeline antics! The country burns while idiot Boy blandly smiles!
 
And we should discuss home gown Muslim terror here! Our idiot Boy has told us that he does not read newspapers so has anybody dared tell ghim the bad news- about the Muslim attack in Edmonton?
About the Muslim attack on Danforth Ave?
About radical Isis bomb maker AARON Driver who blew himself as anti terror cops closed in?

The psychiatry report on the amygdala/fear centre in the human brain casts serious doubt regarding the ability of Our idiot Boy and his loser LIE-berals to recognize danger till the last moment!

How shocked he must have been to hear of a murderous gunman running loose on Parliament Hill? Or the two Muslim clowns trying to derail a Via passenger train in Toronto with `help` from an FBI agent? How could he have failed to understand and appreciate the threat?

What a slap in the face to Lie-berals everywhere who have been so friendly to all newcomers to Canada-why-the father of Omar Khadr was a CONVICTED TERRORIST Bomber languishing in an Italian jail when Lie-beral Jean Chretien did a deal with the Italians and INVITED the odious Khadrs to come to Canada! And our fat head Chretien NEVER SAW the threat that inviting a CONVICTED Muslim bomb maker might one day make for Canada and LIE-berals!

And....WHY wont the economy balance itself poor Justin wonders-he has always had money and everybody has bills to pay so what is the problem? ? And why do people expect HIM to solve THEIR  problems? Poor Justin does not see the harmful, job killing effect of high taxes and HUGE national debts!

Instead of being acclaimed as a great leader,  poor Justin has found himself dumped into a filthy political swamp fighting desperately to keep his head above water and never saw THAT coming either!

Bad enough that poor Justin might lose the 2019 election to Andrew Sheer .....but how much WORSE it must be to think of losing to NDP/Jagmeet Singh?

After all, Lie-berals think of NDP members as people who have their hearts in a good place but they lack the low guile and cunning to be PROPER Lie-beral! Poor Justin never saw the threat posed by Singh either!

And the HISTORIC, absolute ultimate Lie-beral `oopsie` didn’t see that coming moment- hit Lie-beral prime minister Mackenzie King over the head.

In 1936 King traveled to Germany during the Munich Olympics and actually met and talked one on one with Adolf Hitler.

King came back to Canada and explained that Hitler was “basically a good  man, rather dour but giving the German people some much needed hope and discipline”!

King went on to condemn that English chap-Winston Churchill- “as a “rabble rouser and a warmonger”!

Oopsie.....Lie-berals are just not cut out for the deep thinking and long term planning needed in our complex modern government! They simply don’t see threats clearly enough-because their brains are not fully developed!   
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: waldo on November 01, 2020, 04:51:32 pm

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Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: Montgomery on November 01, 2020, 10:36:14 pm
I think we'll know more about the minimum wage effects after the end of the year so we can compare this year to previous years.  It might even take a few years to see the effects.  I'm interested to see.

One of the things I fear the effects of making it more expensive for small businesses to start up and also operate.  It will make it even harder for them to compete with big corporations who can absorb the wage costs easier, and then big corps will have even more of a stranglehold on the economy.

How interesting to stumble on this post and find that you're opposed to a minimum wage too. Have you changed your mind since you wrote that?

Why is it that you're opposed to a minimum wage? Isn't it reasonable to say that any business that can't pay a decent minimum wage isn't a viable business?
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: northlandmagus on November 02, 2020, 01:06:09 pm
    For one thing - Ford WILL NOT encourage Toronto Transit Commission to waste even more cash on electric TOY vehicles! Nor will Ford waste govt revenue on subsidies for electric TOY cars!           

For those who think that a LIE-beral created electric car business might somehow be good for us- I offer up this older article as rebuttal. With some comments of my own in brackets):

TTC hybrid bus batteries losing their power

Globe and Mail/ Jeff Gray Toronto City Hall Reporter/ Published May 16, 2008
Updated March 27, 2017

The box-like batteries on top of the Toronto Transit Commission's brand new and premium-priced hybrid electric-diesel buses are lasting only half as long as their manufacturer promised.

(So there is the first LIE- that electric vehicles will be reliable!)

They were supposed to last five years, but about a third of the lead-acid battery cells in use in the current fleet of 275 hybrids - which started arriving in 2006 - have already worn out, Gary Webster, the TTC's chief general manager, said in an interview.

(And why use lead acid batteries instead of lithium? Lets guess and suggest that lead-acid will not hold as large a charge as lithium but it will hold it longer- such as when a device is only intermittently used- and lead-acid is probably more resistant to cold than lithium! WE know - for instance that a lithium battery suffers major loss of power at temperatures below 10 celcius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )

The battery failures come on top of TTC testing that has shown the buses are producing just half the expected fuel savings, using just 10 per cent instead of 20 to 30 per cent less diesel than a conventional bus, although TTC officials expect this number to improve.

(So there is there next LIE! The usual extravagant promises of advertisers that LIE-berals want us to swallow- along with the cost over runs!)

Still, Mr. Webster defends the decision to buy the Orion VII hybrids - which cost $734,000, compared with $500,000 for a conventional bus. He says the TTC and the manufacturer, Daimler Buses North America, are trying to sort out the battery problem, which is covered by the warranty and not costing the TTC money.

(OH! TYPICAL LIE-beral value for money- a fifty percent higher price and drastically reduced performance- what a BARGAIN! And sadly it’s a better deal than electric cars which cost TWICE as much as gas cars!)

"We think the hybrid bus is a good bus. That's the bottom line for us. It's got some issues, absolutely," Mr. Webster said. "... We think we're going to address these issues."

(And others think Webster is dreaming in technicolour about fixing a mess created by inadequate technology being asked to go beyond its natural capacity!)

By year's end, the TTC will have 564 hybrid buses - making up about a third of its bus fleet - with much of the cost of buying them covered by the federal and provincial governments in funding that mandated buses using alternative fuels. Within five years, close to half of the TTC's fleet is scheduled to have hybrid engines.

(AS I have said before- THE ONLY REASON WE HAVE an electric vehicle “industry” is due to LIE-beral bribery of that business! Every time LIE-berals meddle in business for political reasons- huge bills and public failure follow!)

But Adam Giambrone, the city councillor who chairs the TTC, said the battery problems mean the jury is still out on whether the buses were a good investment: "We're still formulating our opinion on the hybrids."

(The jury is “still out” regarding the busses says Giambrone? CLEARLY ONLY LIE-berals are on that jury! Tax payers HAVE decided already! Giambrone later got fired as TTC chair and the David Miller govt that supported him was defeated in a subsequent election!)

He said the hybrid engine could be a "transitional technology" and that down the road, electric buses could come onto the market, or the TTC could, on busier routes, even return to using trolley buses - powered by overhead wires like streetcars - which it abandoned in the 1990s.

(Apparently “transitional technology ” is LIE-beral speak meaning “ we will go ahead with this mess regardless of public disgust and we will ignore public opinion for selfish political reasons!)

Mr. Webster said yesterday that New York has had some similar problems with its fleet of Orion VII hybrids.

(In other words- TTC brass KNEW there would be trouble with the vehicles due to reports from New York City- and yet they chose to forge ahead anyway- buying vehicles that cost FIFTY PERCENT MORE than older vehicles and with the new vehicles seriously lacking in mechanical reliability! This is political meddling on a fantastic and utterly disgraceful scale! The ONLY defense LIE-berals offer us is this: “don’t worry- we are dreaming of a brighter future in which we MAY do better in some future time”!)   

But Jake Keyes, a spokesman for Daimler, which runs the former Orion Bus Industries plant in Mississauga where the buses are partly manufactured, said the battery problem was specific to Toronto's buses and has not occurred with its other hybrid buses running in New York and San Francisco.

(The battery problem is unique to Toronto? How so? Did TTC ask for technical changes? Or did Daimler make changes on its own to reduce the price to make the busses more appealing for the Toronto market- did they make battery changes that made unique trouble for Toronto busses? Sounds like public relations advertising and B.S. artists are hard at work to protect LIE-berals and electric vehicle image  here!)

The company's newer models include a different, lithium-ion battery that Mr. Keyes said lasts longer, but Mr. Webster said the TTC is not convinced the new battery will fix its problem.

"... We've said to them, 'Happy to consider it, but you've got to prove to us these things actually function,' " he said.

(Proof is very definitely needed at this time! Especially as lithium batteries likely cost more than lead-acid? But that is a hallmark of “emerging” technology- up selling the dis-satisfied customer with new and improved promises until either the customer gives up and shops elsewhere or the company producing the technology goes bankrupt!) 

(And here it is ten years on since the first battery busses went into operation- anybody curious how many are still on the road? LIE-berals do not say! And yet we STILL operate electric street cars that are over 50 years old!)

It is common for transit agencies to run into kinks with new vehicles, and the TTC has had problems before, including with vehicles running on compressed natural gas that it bought from Orion Bus Industries in the 1990s.

It has had to scrap 50 of those buses and convert another 50 to diesel, after engine problems, potentially leaky gas tanks and other complaints.

(TTC brass have dealt with and been RIPPED OFF by Orion in the past? AND still TTC bought the latest B.S? Just how bankrupt is Toronto that they would close their eyes and blindly forge ahead secure in the knowledge that it is ONLY federal transfer funding they are WASTING on shaky Orion promises?)

The TTC blames its hybrid buses' fuel-economy problems on the fact that they are being used more on suburban high-speed routes, where hybrid engines are less efficient.

(And NOBODY thought to ASK if suburban high speed routes were suitable for these delicate electric buses with their myriad mechanical shortcomings?) 

Once more of the buses are running on stop-and-go congested routes downtown, Mr. Webster says, their fuel economy numbers should go up as the bus can rely more on the electric power it creates with its regenerative braking system.

(IN other words Rube Goldberg just took over management of the faulty and over delicate machinery! HAHAHAHA!!! Busses are supposed to go where the passengers are- NOT where its handy for limited technology to operate! But this IS the LIE-beral version of reality- in socialist eyes it’s the stupid passengers who line up in wrong places that are behind the bus failures! It is NOT the fault of weak and limited technology- so LIE-berals will INSIST!)

The fuel-economy problems, which likely cost the TTC $1.3-million this year, are a small part of what is expected to be a massive rise in diesel costs as a fixed-price contract for fuel runs out at the end of this year.

The TTC estimates that its fuel bill could go to $97-million next year from $65-million this year, and Mr. Webster has said the transit agency may even consider a "fuel surcharge" for riders.

(IN other words TTC took a desperate gamble- betting on the battery buses with their KNOWN limitations in hope that the busses would perform better in Toronto than in New York! This is the usual LIE-beral dilemma- the price of fuel is rising and public tolerance for socialist spendaholics is fading- while socialist politicians NEED more gravy for their Hog allies! So they ganlbed and bought huegly expensive busses in desperate hope that they could save some fuel costs and thus have gravy to pass on to Hogs!)

(And there is ALL of LIE-beral policy and planning in a nutshell- just as self proclaimed and staunch LIE-beral supporter Peter Newman said in his book “When The Gods Changed” that details LIE-beral political fortunes after the Chretien era! LIE-beral pal Newman told us the modern LIE-beral party had no significant values, no real policy, no guiding pricniples or morals- all they now have is a huge lust for power and a conviction they are entitled to be the ruling power! This is why LIE-berals can shrug off the costs of all manner of financial disasters they have thrown on us! LIE-berals are convinced they  ARE ENTITLED to over rule us whenever they feel like it! And anybody who disagrees is some sort of racist! Based on current evidence the future will NOT be battery powered!)   
Title: Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
Post by: the_squid on November 02, 2020, 03:53:23 pm
Posts are too long and too fuckin’ stupid for anyone to bother reading.