Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 06:58:53 pm


Title: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 06:58:53 pm
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest7 on April 15, 2018, 07:42:03 pm
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

I think it's an issue where convincing a person who believes in the opposing viewpoint would be very difficult indeed.

I believe abortion should be allowed because to forbid it would be to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy, with all the medical procedures and eventual issue that such entails, against her will.

Because I am pro-choice, I don't believe in questioning individual choices.  (Same as with assisted suicide, for me)
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 15, 2018, 07:51:49 pm
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

Abortion is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth, as soon as they figured out that they could end pregnancy through the use of certain herbs or practices, although these methods tended to be unreliable.  The option for most of history was infanticide, and is still carried out in some parts of the world. 

In Biblical history, abortion was used both to determine infidelity and parentage:  if a woman was suspected of being adulterous, she was provided with concoctions believed to cause abortion and if she did not miscarry, it was assumed she was faithful and the child (if there was one) was her husband's.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5&version=NIV   (read from 5:11-29)

Child bearing, while being the woman's 'responsibility' due to biology has been given more importance as male validation: I can father kids; the kids are mine; the woman is mine.   Even in the passage above, the man had only to be 'jealous', and he could have his wife taken before the Priest and essentially forced to abort, if she was pregnant.  Note that these abortions were condoned by God, via the priests.

Some fun info on abortion throughout history.  https://www.bustle.com/articles/88626-9-ancient-abortion-methods-so-terrible-youll-be-even-more-grateful-for-the-right-to-choose

Patriarchal religions have always sought to control women's sexuality and their procreation; if you support a ban on abortion, or even reduced access to abortion, you are essentially supporting patriarchy, and patriarchal religions.  Although there are and have been no purely matriarchal societies, in pre-modern times - when women tended to live more separately from men within the community - abortion essentially an open secret.   Even in modern times when abortion was illegal and socially unacceptable, there was always a way - dangerous and shameful - but a woman or girl desperate enough could find it.

If abortion has been known throughout history, if it's something women (and men unwilling or not ready to be fathers) support, openly or secretly, banning it or disapproving of it will make no difference; the whole of human history has shown that.    Women, girls and newborns have died painful and slow deaths as a result of attempting unsafe abortions, whether due to lack of knowledge, or because laws or social disapproval have forced them to seek out substandard services.  Providing safe and effective abortion is better than condemning women to unsafe and unreliable methods, and it's preferable to leaving a child to die after it's born.   

That's why I support choice: it saves women and children from both patriarchy and death.  Personally however, if a woman came to me to ask my advice, my advice would be: I support whatever choice you make, but I think the best choice is to have the baby, and let it be adopted if you do not believe you can care for a child.   
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 08:46:43 pm
I think it's an issue where convincing a person who believes in the opposing viewpoint would be very difficult indeed.

I've gone back and forth being pro-choice and pro-life throughout my adult life. So I can be swayed. I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.

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I believe abortion should be allowed because to forbid it would be to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy, with all the medical procedures and eventual issue that such entails, against her will.

I get that point, it's an important point and a very compelling argument.  However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.

The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.

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Because I am pro-choice, I don't believe in questioning individual choices.

Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 15, 2018, 09:02:42 pm
Tell me your reason why abortion should be allowed and/or why it's moral.  I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong.

If someone is able to convince me otherwise, i'll give huge kudos.

Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions. If you outlaw it again, you will simply knock us back into those dark ages. Birth control is a much better approach I totally agree. (Boy you really have bounced into the right wing ring I see)
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2018, 09:05:44 pm
Wrong question.

The default is to allow people freedom. If that is to be restricted then there must be justification.

So why should abortion be restricted?
I can't see any reason other than the metaphysical beliefs of some individuals.
That is not good enough to justify restrictions.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 15, 2018, 09:12:57 pm
I am not against abortions like PG but I just want to address your point, dia.

I get that historically women have jeopardized their lives to have abortions but we now live in a time where birth control is readily available.  When I was younger they wouldn't insert IUD unless you'd already had kids and if hormone pills didn't mesh well with your system you were pretty SOL, but these days they do IUD's for any age.  There are lots of different ways to avoid getting pregnant.

As awful as the history of abortion has been, does it even have resonance in the modern western world?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 15, 2018, 09:17:40 pm
Poonlight Graham, do you feel there are enough people out there to adopt every unwanted baby? 

If no, then you could consider not just the life of a fetus, but the life of an unwanted baby in this world.  Many studies show that babies in orphanages grow up with many personality disorders because touch and security is very important for infants.

Of course we are way too frivolous about abortion and I don't like it either, but banning it wouldn't necessarily help the lives that we're supposed to be saving.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:26:57 pm
Abortion is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.

****, slavery, murder, and child molestation is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.

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The option for most of history was infanticide, and is still carried out in some parts of the world. 

Baby murder while outside the womb, as opposed to baby murder while inside the womb.

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In Biblical history, abortion was used both to determine infidelity and parentage:  if a woman was suspected of being adulterous, she was provided with concoctions believed to cause abortion and if she did not miscarry, it was assumed she was faithful and the child (if there was one) was her husband's https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5&version=NIV   (read from 5:11-29)

These people sound crazy.

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Child bearing, while being the woman's 'responsibility' due to biology has been given more importance as male validation: I can father kids; the kids are mine; the woman is mine.   Even in the passage above, the man had only to be 'jealous', and he could have his wife taken before the Priest and essentially forced to abort, if she was pregnant.  Note that these abortions were condoned by God, via the priests.

This sounds like a disgusting nightmare obviously. I feel bad for the women and children.

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Patriarchal religions have always sought to control women's sexuality and their procreation; if you support a ban on abortion, or even reduced access to abortion, you are essentially supporting patriarchy, and patriarchal religions.

This makes no logical sense whatsoever.  I'm 100% completely against patriarchy and I dislike most religions. This feeds into the common argument of: "Pro-lifers/Christians/Men need to stop trying to control women's bodies".  Nobody gives a rat about a woman's boobs, their neck, their legs, their clitoris, their uterus or any other part of their bodies.  Go amputate both your arms, get a bad boob job, dye your hair green, remove one eyeball, and get a tattoo of a naked Whoopi Goldberg across your back for all I care.  What I actually care about is the little innocent human being growing inside a woman's body that the woman created through their own willful actions but refuse to take any responsibility for except to murder it.  (yes, men involved too, but still ultimately the woman's choice too except in cases of ****).

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Although there are and have been no purely matriarchal societies, in pre-modern times - when women tended to live more separately from men within the community - abortion essentially an open secret.   Even in modern times when abortion was illegal and socially unacceptable, there was always a way - dangerous and shameful - but a woman or girl desperate enough could find it. 

If abortion has been known throughout history, if it's something women (and men unwilling or not ready to be fathers) support, openly or secretly, banning it or disapproving of it will make no difference; the whole of human history has shown that.    Women, girls and newborns have died painful and slow deaths as a result of attempting unsafe abortions, whether due to lack of knowledge, or because laws or social disapproval have forced them to seek out substandard services.  Providing safe and effective abortion is better than condemning women to unsafe and unreliable methods, and it's preferable to leaving a child to die after it's born.


If somebody is so cowardly and irresponsible that they'd rather kill a growing human baby that they created through their own willful actions using unsafe methods than to muster the courage to tell their parents or partner that they're pregnant and/or to suck it up for 9 months & give it up for adoption then these women needs to grow up and learn to take some responsibility for their actions. If the woman dies or becomes sick from unsafe underground methods, it's 100% their fault, it sucks & I empathize but I can't feel sorry for them, because killing an innocent human life due to fear and inconvenience is disgusting and morally reprehensible.

If the mother leaves the child to die after birth, that's also disgusting and the mother should be arrested for murder.

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Personally however, if a woman came to me to ask my advice, my advice would be: I support whatever choice you make, but I think the best choice is to have the baby, and let it be adopted if you do not believe you can care for a child.

Well I'm glad we agree on at least that.  The difference is that I think that should be the only choice post-pregnancy (keep or adopt away).  I'm pro-choice in that all of the choices occur before the pregnancy.  There's no mulligans when creating human life.  Killing the baby should not be a choice. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:33:24 pm
Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions. If you outlaw it again, you will simply knock us back into those dark ages. Birth control is a much better approach I totally agree.

Men will **** women and adults will molest children whether it's allowed or not.

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(Boy you really have bounced into the right wing ring I see)

On some things.  Before, I would scoff at the rightwing and not really consider some of their arguments.  Now I actually take the time to listen to them, some of it is still crazy nonsense but some is compelling.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:37:04 pm
Wrong question.

The default is to allow people freedom. If that is to be restricted then there must be justification.

So why should abortion be restricted?
I can't see any reason other than the metaphysical beliefs of some individuals.
That is not good enough to justify restrictions.

I agree with your first premise.  But what freedom are you allowing the unborn child?  Do they have no rights, to their own body or otherwise? And the woman's rights unrestricted?  Read my other responses, you'll see my reasoning as it's revealed.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:38:36 pm
So far i've enjoyed the debating, keep it coming!
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2018, 09:41:08 pm
I agree with your first premise.  But what freedom are you allowing the unborn child?  Do they have no rights, to their own body or otherwise? And the woman's rights unrestricted?  Read my other responses, you'll see my reasoning as it's revealed.
The question of whether a fetus is a person worthy of rights is purely metaphysical and has no utilitarian basis (i.e. public safety/health etc). People who wish to believe that should be be free to apply that principle to their own lives, however, without a utilitarian justification these beliefs should not be imposed on others.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest7 on April 15, 2018, 09:41:48 pm
I've gone back and forth being pro-choice and pro-life throughout my adult life. So I can be swayed. I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.

I don't know if I've ever been pro life.  I think for much of my life I didn't have an opinion.  When I formed one it was pro-choice.  It's because I'm pro-choice in pretty much anything, and I don't hold life to be sacred.

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I get that point, it's an important point and a very compelling argument.  However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.

The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.

I don't think you can separate those who willfully decided to use abortion as birth control and those who made a mistake with their birth control.  Then there are those who planned on a child, and then decided against it, for whatever reason.  It's like I said, being pro choice, I don't want to start vetting choices.

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Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.


I think that would be a good, unselfish thing for a mother to do, but I believe she must have the choice.  Where I differ from you in another way is the notion of fetus as baby.  I'm not one who believes life begins at conception.  I have no strong views as to where it does begin, but for me it would have to be at least once a fetus is viable outside the womb. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:49:51 pm
1. Poonlight Graham, do you feel there are enough people out there to adopt every unwanted baby?

2. If no, then you could consider not just the life of a fetus, but the life of an unwanted baby in this world.  Many studies show that babies in orphanages grow up with many personality disorders because touch and security is very important for infants.

Of course we are way too frivolous about abortion and I don't like it either, but banning it wouldn't necessarily help the lives that we're supposed to be saving.

1. I honestly don't know those facts.  Would be good to know though, so good question.

2. Here's the thing...that's a great point, I'd feel bad for the kids.  But having a not-so-great upbringing is better than having no upbringing at all.  If your mom had the choice to put you in an orphanage or abort you, which would you have preferred?  Do all those residential school victims want to die, or to live?  All choice emphasis by many pro-choice advocates is on the mother, but no regard to the baby who has no power whether they are created, able to live, or their killed via abortion.  This will sound macabre (but so discussing killing unborn babies)...but even if a child has to go into an orphanage and may not have a great upbringing, if they're unhappy and they don't want to live, they can commit suicide to end their own life, instead of having others make that decision for them.  There's lots of unhappy orphans and kids in foster homes etc, some who commit suicide or live on the stret, but also many who choose live, and have a life worth living.  Why not live them that chance?  Why not reform the child welfare system in general so these kids have love somewhere?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 09:55:05 pm
The question of whether a fetus is a person worthy of rights is purely metaphysical and has no utilitarian basis (i.e. public safety/health etc). People who wish to believe that should be be free to apply that principle to their own lives, however, without a utilitarian justification these beliefs should not be imposed on others.

I dont understand what you mean by this.  Please clarify.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: TimG on April 15, 2018, 10:14:19 pm
I dont understand what you mean by this.  Please clarify.
Whenever we prohibit an action there is a justification that does not depend on agreement on a metaphysical belief such as the intrinsic value of a human being. For example, murder is prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of murder (i.e. the golden rule - do unto others as you would they do unto you). The prohibition also has the effect of creating a society where people can live with less fear of others which provides a utilitarian benefit for society as a whole.

Pick any prohibited action and you should see the utilitarian benefit fairly quickly. If you find a prohibited action that does not have utilitarian benefit then it is probably something that should be allowed.

I can't think of any utilitarian benefit that comes from banning abortion but I can think of many if it is allowed (fewer unwanted children, maternal health, etc).

 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 16, 2018, 12:11:43 am
1. I honestly don't know those facts.  Would be good to know though, so good question.

2. Here's the thing...that's a great point, I'd feel bad for the kids.  But having a not-so-great upbringing is better than having no upbringing at all.  If your mom had the choice to put you in an orphanage or abort you, which would you have preferred?  Do all those residential school victims want to die, or to live?  All choice emphasis by many pro-choice advocates is on the mother, but no regard to the baby who has no power whether they are created, able to live, or their killed via abortion.  This will sound macabre (but so discussing killing unborn babies)...but even if a child has to go into an orphanage and may not have a great upbringing, if they're unhappy and they don't want to live, they can commit suicide to end their own life, instead of having others make that decision for them.  There's lots of unhappy orphans and kids in foster homes etc, some who commit suicide or live on the stret, but also many who choose live, and have a life worth living.  Why not live them that chance?  Why not reform the child welfare system in general so these kids have love somewhere?


Committing suicide takes incredible bravery, I don't care how much people say it's a sign of weakness.  All living beings have an inherent fear of death and no matter how awful life may be, it's not easy to take one's own life.  I don't think that's a great argument to make about letting people sort themselves out.  People end up living desperate lives and never get the courage to commit suicide.

As for which I would have preferred between not being born or not having loving caregivers, in all honesty, not to be born.  Obviously it's a personal opinion but I remember when I was little and my mom explained that some kids don't have parents or parents who are cruel and hurt them, I was aghast.  My parents were my world.  They gave me security and comfort.  How could it possibly be to not have that, or have parents who hurt you. 

I could not imagine growing up as a vulnerable child and having to fend for myself and being abused by people who were supposed to take care of me. 

At some point you have to consider not just life as an organism, but quality of life as well. 

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 16, 2018, 03:05:57 am
... I've thought about it a lot, and have come to the conclusion through much logical reasoning why it shouldn't be allowed and why it's morally wrong.  But if logical reasoning can be used to persuade me to change my mind again and argue successfully as to why my opinions are logically and morally wrong, I'm all ears.  It won't be easy though.
...
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However, what i'll counter is that she should have thought of that before she willfully undertook actions that made her become pregnant.  Her actions (along with the actions of the man) led to her becoming pregnant.  Now she has created a human life by her own willful actions (& inactions).  How is killing a human life an acceptable form of birth control?  The time for proper use of birth control was BEFORE the pregnancy.
First off, abortion is not killing - as in murder.  The fetus, or baby if you find that a more preferable term, has no existence as an individual separate from the mother. it is entirely 100% dependant upon the mother for all sustenance. It can't even leave or wander away from its mother. It has no known thought process or desires or wishes or wants. not even a survival instinct. There is nothing about the baby to suggest that it is a separate human entity from mom.    Abortion is an acceptable form of birth control - albeit a form of last resort - because some people choose to do so. So it is, in fact, acceptable. Not by you, I understand that.

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The pregnancy isn't against her will, it was her will that made it become so in the first place.  Now there's an innocent baby human life involved, the baby never asked to be created, it's a slave to the mother, 100% wholly dependent on her, creation and death.  Why should the baby be killed without its consent, against its will, when its creation is 100% entirely the responsibility of the mother (and father)?  All because the mom and dad wanted to have fun sexy times and didn't live up to their responsibility to use proper precautions.  It's a horribly selfish argument.
The pregnancy could very well be against her will. She may have wanted the sexual congress but not want the pregnancy that resulted. Where do you get off deciding that if she engages in sexual intercourse she must want to be pregnant? That is something that you cannot possibly know or even safely assume.  She could very well have taken proper precautions. Even if she didn't take precautions niether your moral values or anyone else moral values get to trump her moral values regarding what she does with her own body. If she doesn't wish to be pregnant or remain pregnant you got no ground to impose your morality on her.
  The baby has never had any choice about wether it lives or dies. It doesn't even choose to exist. Biology makes that choice, not that biology actually chooses anything.  The baby is not a separate entity from the mother until birth.
 And , yes its a selfish argument. It has to be because it only concerns the pregnant person and her alone. Wether she continues the pregnancy or ends it, in either case its a selfish decision
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...
Abortion rights across the world means the deaths of millions of unborn babies.  It's a slaughter, a mass genocide of unwanted babies.  When your choices affect another living human life because of your bad choices that resulted in pregnancy you could have prevented, it's not just about the rights of the mother.  With great power comes great responsibility.  If the woman screws up, time to adult-up, take responsibility for your actions and mistake, put up with 9 months of inconvenience, and then give the baby up for adoption if you don't the baby. Lots of gay couples etc looking.
Again, millions of babies aren't  being killed. There is no slaughter or mass genocide of unwanted babies. and it is entirely and completely about the rights of the mother - there are no others rights involved.
  If she screws up she can adult up by taking responsibility for her actions and mistakes by ending the pregnancy - or continuing it, as she determines to be the best, more responsible thing to do. She is the one that is fully aware of her situation and capability. At least far more aware than you or others.

 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 16, 2018, 02:56:36 pm
But the major point of allowing abortions:  Abortions will be done no matter the legality.   So, need we repeat the entire Morgantaler era?  Should the whole train of events that led up to de-criminalization be brushed aside? Shall we pretend there is no past and inevitable repeat it?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 16, 2018, 03:31:02 pm
But the major point of allowing abortions:  Abortions will be done no matter the legality.   So, need we repeat the entire Morgantaler era?  Should the whole train of events that led up to de-criminalization be brushed aside? Shall we pretend there is no past and inevitable repeat it?

All good points. Do we want to go back to the days when women had to scurry across the border or, heaven forbid, end up seeking the services of some knitting needle artist in a back alley? I would of course wish there were never another abortion, but only due to the fact there was never another unwanted pregnancy. Maybe we need to focus more and maybe earlier on sex education in schools.   
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 16, 2018, 03:53:22 pm
Women will get abortions whether it's "allowed" or not. They did so prior to the change in Canadian law and many of them died obtaining illegal abortions.

Oh? How many?
I'm not sure the situation can be compared. Back then, being pregnant outside of marriage was a massive societal shame and humiliation. You were ruined. Your family name was in tatters! No one would ever want you! And how could you possibly support yourself and your child!?

None of that prevails any longer.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 16, 2018, 03:57:03 pm

Committing suicide takes incredible bravery, I don't care how much people say it's a sign of weakness.  All living beings have an inherent fear of death and no matter how awful life may be, it's not easy to take one's own life.

Nonsense. The reason people kill themselves is they believe it's preferable to facing something else. So yes, it IS a sign of weakness, unless, of course, that something else truly IS worse. Continual, debilitating pain which can't be treated or cured, for example. Or some terrible physical impairment.

One of my uncles killed himself when he got a girl pregnant outside of marriage back in the 50s. I regard that as weakness and cowardice. He couldn't face his family.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 16, 2018, 04:07:52 pm
Oh? How many?
I'm not sure the situation can be compared. Back then, being pregnant outside of marriage was a massive societal shame and humiliation. You were ruined. Your family name was in tatters! No one would ever want you! And how could you possibly support yourself and your child!?

None of that prevails any longer.

How many do you suggest there would be if we outlawed it again? None? Not likely.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 16, 2018, 06:53:09 pm
How many do you suggest there would be if we outlawed it again? None? Not likely.

Damned few, if any. I don't favour banning abortion myself, but in a society built on compromise I'm perfectly willing to limit it at least as much as Sweden or France do.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2018, 08:16:16 pm
Whenever we prohibit an action there is a justification that does not depend on agreement on a metaphysical belief such as the intrinsic value of a human being. For example, murder is prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of murder (i.e. the golden rule - do unto others as you would they do unto you).

I can't think of any utilitarian benefit that comes from banning abortion but I can think of many if it is allowed (fewer unwanted children, maternal health, etc).

How about abortion should be prohibited because people don't want to be a victim of abortion.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2018, 08:25:31 pm
I don't think you can separate those who willfully decided to use abortion as birth control and those who made a mistake with their birth control.  Then there are those who planned on a child, and then decided against it, for whatever reason.  It's like I said, being pro choice, I don't want to start vetting choices.

Exactly.  So why not ban abortion then, except in cases of **** and danger to mother's health and certain other special circumstances? How do you separate someone who wants to abort a baby because they made a mistake and aren't ready to be a parent with people like certain south asians who want a baby but don't want a female baby for cultural reasons and so they abort the baby and hope for a boy next time?

My point about choice is that the choice comes BEFORE the pregnancy.  You had the choice to use all sorts of proper birth control in the proper way, to obstain from sex altogether.  The idea that we have the inherent right to have sex for fun and to ejaculate into vaginas without repercussions is ridiculous, it's an idea that's only been around since the 1960's.  To have millions of growing humans killed because of inconvenience is pretty disgusting, selfish, and horribly irresponsible.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2018, 09:01:57 pm
I could not imagine growing up as a vulnerable child and having to fend for myself and being abused by people who were supposed to take care of me. 

At some point you have to consider not just life as an organism, but quality of life as well.

Fair enough point.  That's why I would want any children to have quality of life.  If babies outstripped adoption demand, I'd want orphanages to have very high quality care and stable well-trained longterm staff, which doesn't exist in many group homes in Canada which is a tragedy.

I'd have to be convinced that decent quality of life and loving guardian(s) was by any and all means unattainable in order to think about seeing abortion as ethical, which I'm not convinced yet.  I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 16, 2018, 09:15:44 pm
Fair enough point.  That's why I would want any children to have quality of life.  If babies outstripped adoption demand, I'd want orphanages to have very high quality care and stable well-trained longterm staff, which doesn't exist in many group homes in Canada which is a tragedy.

I'd have to be convinced that decent quality of life and loving guardian(s) was by any and all means unattainable in order to think about seeing abortion as ethical, which I'm not convinced yet.  I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

Yeah we've been through all this **** before. The folks who supported abortion bans walked down the street with their banners and then completely ignored what happened to the unwanted/unsupported babies. There is a host of good reasons why abortion was decided to be a choice made between a woman and her doctor. even Harper wasn't dumb enough to try and roll back the clock on that issue.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 16, 2018, 09:16:32 pm
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2018, 10:57:52 pm
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.

Thanks for the drive-by profanity-laced insult flaming yet again, with no argument whatsoever.  If you're interested in debate, please join.  If you have such self-righteous contempt for anyone that has a different viewpoint than you I don't even know why you bother on here.  Learn some god damned manners.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 12:07:01 am
This thread is **** stupid. Read a god damned book.

Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 12:35:54 am
I think more education and access to birth control is needed to avoid all of this in the first place.

I agree with the better education part.  Speaking strictly from my own personal experience and not for anyone else, there is this mentality that I was brought up about abortion with which irks me now that I'm older.  I was told that it's nothing but cells in the beginning when it's actually not true.  There is a heartbeat quite early on and the fetus is formed by around 12 weeks. 

I never understood why a debate even exists and I feel it's because I wasn't really given an accurate picture of what the beginning entails.  Even though I could never be anti-choice, I wish the opposite wasn't 'it's really nothing but a few cells'.

I wouldn't go full Sarah Palin, or Poonlight Graham, and think that all life must be born and I don't think people should have babies that are unwanted, but I evolved on when life begins and became personally anti-abortion (in that I wouldn't have one myself). 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: ?Impact on April 17, 2018, 07:18:55 am
There is a heartbeat quite early on

Even a mosquito has a heartbeat, something to think about in about 6-8 weeks from now.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 07:36:52 am
Thanks for the drive-by profanity-laced insult flaming yet again, with no argument whatsoever.  If you're interested in debate, please join.  If you have such self-righteous contempt for anyone that has a different viewpoint than you I don't even know why you bother on here.  Learn some god damned manners.
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 07:37:36 am
Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 08:08:30 am
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 17, 2018, 08:38:53 am
I think you (Cybercoma in reply 35) may be on to something.
Equating abortion to genocide and mass killings then claiming pregnant woman are irresponsibly choosing to abort indicates that his position - like mine - is not open for rational debate.
you are correct in pointing out that In order for his mind to be changed entire books about philosophy need be read and considered. The entire legal history surrounding abortions must also be reviewed and considered.
His entire concept of responsibility must also be considered in light of the law, philosophy and logic.

This is not the arena in which such things are done.
I suspect you are correct and PH has entrenched himself on his hill and dares us lefty hordes to come take him out.
And I am foolish enough to shout "You die now GI!" .


 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 17, 2018, 08:48:45 am
If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views.

 I dunno about that. Was PG being respectful ? I think not. Women choosing abortion are killers. Irresponsible to boot. Has PG been respectful? Do we actually expect him to be respectful to murderers? Willing to rationally consider the woman actions in a manner that is respectful?
  It doesn't appear so. 
  Cyber is correct. This pretends to be a debate where PG claims he can be convinced given rational argument. I think, in light of his characterizations of abortion and those seeking it, give lie to his claims of an open mind.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: waldo on April 17, 2018, 09:21:48 am
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him.
.
.
There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

the pro-life's postured open-mindedness lacks appropriate references... as in speaking to the law (or absence therein) and its iterative underpinnings, as in speaking to the medical basis for and contributing influences toward the status-quo, as in recognizing a woman's domain, as in speaking to representative statistics for Canadians support of pro-life versus pro-choice, etc.. This lack of proper referencing and framing does act to normalize the idea that abortion is 'up for debate'... on the broader level. On the OP's personal level, to me, the more appropriate approach should have been to make an up-front personal case for pro-life positioning recognizing legalities, medical aspects, statistical support, etc..

on that statistical support aspect, for what any single poll/survey is worth: per a 2017 Ipsos poll
Quote
There remains a group, representing about 5% of the Canadian population, that feels abortion should never be permitted under any circumstance, even if the life of the mother is at stake.

Another 7% told Ipsos that abortion should only be allowed when the life of the mother is in danger.

About one in 10 Canadians aren’t sure where they stand on the issue.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 09:29:23 am
Even a mosquito has a heartbeat, something to think about in about 6-8 weeks from now.

What’s your point?  An embryo at 8 weeks is like a mosquito?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 09:30:43 am
I dunno about that. Was PG being respectful ? I think not. Women choosing abortion are killers. Irresponsible to boot. Has PG been respectful? Do we actually expect him to be respectful to murderers? Willing to rationally consider the woman actions in a manner that is respectful?
  It doesn't appear so. 
  Cyber is correct. This pretends to be a debate where PG claims he can be convinced given rational argument. I think, in light of his characterizations of abortion and those seeking it, give lie to his claims of an open mind.

Men are on board with abortions too. It’s not an attack on women, I read it as a critique on society as a whole.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 09:39:39 am
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.


I’ve debated the ethics behind meat eating which is an accepted domain and nobody gets this worked up over it.

A small portion of people have differing views on abortion and they have a right to debate it.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 09:43:53 am
****, slavery, murder, and child molestation is a completely normal and natural human activity.  It's been carried on since humans first walked the earth.
Point taken.

Quote
Baby murder while outside the womb, as opposed to baby murder while inside the womb.
Baby is an emotionally laden word.  Until a fetus is viable outside the womb, it's only a "potential" baby and it may be rejected at any time by the body.  So long as the fetus requires the femle's body to survive and can be rejected by that body at any time, then it has no existence or identity separate from that body. 

Quote
This makes no logical sense whatsoever.  I'm 100% completely against patriarchy and I dislike most religions. This feeds into the common argument of: "Pro-lifers/Christians/Men need to stop trying to control women's bodies".
In the Biblical passage I quoted earlier, do you suppose if a woman had gone to a priest to ask for an abortion, it would have been allowed?  Do you suppose it's coincidence that abortion became more socially acceptable only after women gained more societal power?   Or that methods of abortion have been known by women throughout history, but often hidden from the men.

 
Quote
Nobody gives a rat about a woman's boobs, their neck, their legs, their clitoris, their uterus or any other part of their bodies.  Go amputate both your arms, get a bad boob job, dye your hair green, remove one eyeball, and get a tattoo of a naked Whoopi Goldberg across your back for all I care.
Even in the most patriarchal society, no individual man ever thinks "he" wants to control a woman's body but he takes for granted his socially and legally supported rights to control and direct his wife, his right to sex, his status as leader and discipliner of the family, especially the females.  Our society is definitely moving away from that degree of patriarchy, but the dregs are there in the religious support for anti-abortion policies.  Your rejection of that as a reason for your beliefs about abortion doesn't mean it's any less sprung from patriarchy.

Quote
What I actually care about is the little innocent human being growing inside a woman's body that the woman created through their own willful actions but refuse to take any responsibility for except to murder it.  (yes, men involved too, but still ultimately the woman's choice too except in cases of ****).

This infuriates me.  Why is it "the woman" who is automatically responsible for unwanted pregnancy in men's (and religious twit's) minds?   No birth control is 100% effective, even when used perfectly.  Women, being human, aren't perfect and so sometimes they get pregnant even though they aren't planning to, and aren't ready to.  And, surprising as it may seem to you, men who sabotage women's birth control efforts are not as uncommon as you think.   Do you know what happens all too often if a woman truly and accidentally gets pregnant and Daddy isn't interested?  He accuses her of tricking him because she secretly wanted a baby, denies the baby is his, pressures her to abort regardless of her feelings about it, and does his damndest to avoid any and all responsibility.  So yeah, in the nice tidy world inhabited by religious twits and conservative atheists - it's woman's responsibility to be pregnant, or not, depending on what the man wants - and she's the murderer of babies if she fails to be anything but perfectly acquiescent to what the man or the religious twits expect of her.

If you want to claim that abortion is murder because its a baby that is entitled to rights from the moment of conception, then that little baby should be charged for imposing itself on the woman without her express consent and keeping her confined for those months the baby took over her body.  And the father should also have to pay for inserting his seed to create the baby: perhaps a jail term or forced marriage without the possibility of divorce would be appropriate. 

 If you don't like abortion, start by changing attitudes about who holds primary responsibility for birth control - that would be the people having sex, whether male or female; two forms of birth control is 100% effective.   Once you've got that covered, follow up by making the care of children a societal priority, even for families who have too many kids, or families that are poor, or families that only have one parent for whatever reason.   Start creating a world where all babies and children are valued and cherished by the society even after they leave the womb, and maybe the whole issue of abortion would just disappear since by and large it's social and economic pressure that drives abortion, not female selfishness and irresponsibility.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 09:47:22 am
If you don't like it, don't drop by.   Stopping in on people to inform them, rudely, that they shouldn't be discussing something seems a tad arrogant.   And what kind of world would it be if discussion were banned on topics that had already been "decided"?  Even if you doubt the  OP's sincerity and disagree with the topic, there are certainly more respectful ways of expressing your views.
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 09:51:12 am
A small portion of people have differing views on abortion and they have a right to debate it.
And I have a right to call their stance utterly stupid. Like I said, it's not up to me, you or anyone else on this board to educate someone on the things that already exist. It is not an honest discussion. And it's my "right" to call it the bullshit that it is.

I look at this nonsense like trying to convince betsy that the Bible is not real. There's literally zero point in doing that. Kimmy had a long drawn-out discussion about the Great Flood with her. It was entirely fruitless. That's because when someone digs in, they are not open to reason and they are not open to an "honest" discussion. If OP has read the political, philosophical, and legal literature on abortion and still needs convincing, then nobody here is going to do it. If he hasn't done his homework and wants us to inform him, then forget him. It's not my job to educate someone on readily available information. But that presupposes that it's an honest debate in the first place, when it's not. It's exactly like trying to explain to betsy that the Great Flood was physically not possible. There's no convincing someone who doesn't accept the information that's readily available.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 10:00:41 am
I dunno about that. Was PG being respectful ? I think not. Women choosing abortion are killers. Irresponsible to boot. Has PG been respectful? Do we actually expect him to be respectful to murderers? Willing to rationally consider the woman actions in a manner that is respectful?
  It doesn't appear so. 
  Cyber is correct. This pretends to be a debate where PG claims he can be convinced given rational argument. I think, in light of his characterizations of abortion and those seeking it, give lie to his claims of an open mind.

Perhaps so, but in presenting his view, he didn't say "stupid **** women just kill babies for fun, prove me wrong if you can".  That is the difference I see between PG's discussion opener and Cyber's drive by.

Debate is about different views and opinions.  How many here aren't entrenched to some degree, so if entrenchment is the definer of what can or can't be discussed, we should all go home.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 10:06:34 am
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.

Most of what goes on here is fake "discussion" as far as I can tell.  And if I want to have a "fake discussion" and consider my own arguments vs. someone else's, I don't think you have any business coming in to rudely tell me how stupid it is. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: waldo on April 17, 2018, 10:13:39 am
Intellectually honest Debate is about different views and opinions.

waldo correction: "intellectually honest" debate... presupposes appropriate references to the status-quo while recognizing the existence of different views and opinions of those engaging in substantive discussion within the boundaries of rhetoric, ideological bias, partisanship, discrimination, censorship, etc..
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: waldo on April 17, 2018, 10:19:05 am
And if I want to have a "fake discussion" and consider my own arguments vs. someone else's, I don't think you have any business coming in to rudely tell me how stupid it is.

no - there was a most apropos call-out of an illegitimate OP position that postured from a false position of open-mindedness... and yes, in the absence of proper framing and background reference, you/others acted to normalize a position that the subject is open for "teach me" debate - its not.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 10:21:27 am
waldo correction: "intellectually honest" debate...

You might be right, but you (and cyber) aren't inside PGs head, so you are assuming.   Perhaps I am willing to give PG the benefit of the doubt because on a couple of ocassions, when I have questioned my own beliefs on something and then posted to try and have a discussion about that, I have been accused of the same dishonesty.   
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: ?Impact on April 17, 2018, 10:37:20 am
Next topic: Robert's rules
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 10:50:25 am
Holy ****, I kinda see Lindsay Shepard's point about shutting down debate.  Way to go guys.

Sincerely,
Someone who does see the middle-ground in this argument.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 10:59:29 am
I look at this nonsense like trying to convince betsy that the Bible is not real. There's literally zero point in doing that. Kimmy had a long drawn-out discussion about the Great Flood with her. It was entirely fruitless. That's because when someone digs in, they are not open to reason and they are not open to an "honest" discussion. If OP has read the political, philosophical, and legal literature on abortion and still needs convincing, then nobody here is going to do it. If he hasn't done his homework and wants us to inform him, then forget him. It's not my job to educate someone on readily available information. But that presupposes that it's an honest debate in the first place, when it's not. It's exactly like trying to explain to betsy that the Great Flood was physically not possible. There's no convincing someone who doesn't accept the information that's readily available.

I used to argue for Muslims but then I got sick of it.  I rarely even read the Muslim threads anymore but people have a right to debate Muslims in western society if they want. 

Betsy could spew her crap all that she wants and nobody has to answer, but if kimmy wants to debate with her that's totally up to her. 

You can choose to ignore whatever topic that irks you, it's better than shutting down the discussion.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: ?Impact on April 17, 2018, 11:02:25 am
Lets not confuse calling out something with shutting down the discussion
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: waldo on April 17, 2018, 11:08:18 am
Holy ****, I kinda see Lindsay Shepard's point about shutting down debate.  Way to go guys.

Sincerely,
Someone who does see the middle-ground in this argument.

care to define just what your interpreted "middle-ground" is?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 11:09:28 am
Lets not confuse calling out something with shutting down the discussion

Calling something stupid and telling other posters good luck 'normalizing' this, is shutting down debate. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 11:12:13 am
care to define just what your interpreted "middle-ground" is?

I don't mean middle ground on the topic of banning abortion, I've been quite vocal in that it should be legal.

My middle ground is seeing both sides.  I recognize that life begins well before birth and even viability, but I don't believe in banning abortion as a result.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 17, 2018, 11:22:05 am
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.

It is a point of social policy which is either supported or opposed to roughly equal numbers of Canadians. Why should there not be debate? Because you've made your closed-mind up? It don't work that way.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 17, 2018, 11:30:03 am
A small portion of people have differing views on abortion and they have a right to debate it.

Not that small. Roughly 20% want to end all abortion. Of the 77% who support abortion, about 53% support abortion on demand. That leaves a sizable group of people who either want to ban abortion or simply want some laws in place to control it.

Fun fact. There are more than twice as many people who want to ban abortion as their are people living in Atlantic Canada. Should we say those people in the four eastern provinces have no right to disagree or discuss anything because they're the minority?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 11:32:37 am
Should we say those people in the four eastern provinces have no right to disagree or discuss anything because they're the minority?

Why are you addressing this post to me?  Didn't I clearly argue for NOT shutting down this debate?

Or are you just taking fault with my use of the word 'small'?  Ok, I'll make it Small-er.

Hope that makes you happy.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 17, 2018, 11:38:55 am
Why are you addressing this post to me?  Didn't I clearly argue for NOT shutting down this debate?

Or are you just taking fault with my use of the word 'small'?  Ok, I'll make it Small-er.

Hope that makes you happy.

Yes, I was taking issue with the word small, as in unimportant to the point their views should not be listened to. And yes, I'm aware you personally were not making that suggestion. I learned to read months ago. But these posts are not designed to be read by one individual nor is the point being made, presuming they have one.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 17, 2018, 11:39:43 am
Calling something stupid and telling other posters good luck 'normalizing' this, is shutting down debate.

 Nothings been shut down. Debate to your hearts content. Neither Cyber nor I nor anyone else can stop you or anyone else.
This debate will be shut down once people realize that there are huge mountains that need be climbed in regards to what is killing and responsibility.
 The debate here was shut down once abortion was called genocide. How does one surmount that? Whats to discuss?
 Am I, or anyone else, to now accept that abortion is genocide in order to then have a rational debate on the reasonable ethical limits of genocide?
 There is no debate because there is no common ground with which to maintain a rational discussion?

 It seems to me that the only people who have any hope of engaging PG in rational debate are those that fundimentally agree that abortion is killing/murder/genocide but may think that perhaps some little leeway in extreme cases might perhaps be allowed. Those are the only folks that can possibly engage in a supposed debate with PG.

 Look whats happened here, on this very thread: PG issued the challenge "Why should abortion be allowed. Convince me. Its mass murder. Its genocide. Lets debate"
 Me: Its not any of those things. Not even a little bit.

 . Whats to discuss. For anything to continue either I accept it is indeed murder or he accepts that it is not.
Debate ends. Shut down. There is nowhere to go.



 
 
 

 
 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 11:48:26 am
Look whats happened here, on this very thread: PG issued the challenge "Why should abortion be allowed. Convince me. Its mass murder. Its genocide. Lets debate"
 Me: Its not any of those things. Not even a little bit.

 . Whats to discuss. For anything to continue either I accept it is indeed murder or he accepts that it is not.
Debate ends. Shut down. There is nowhere to go.
 

Then don't read it.  That's what I did with any of taxme and Betsy's threads.  I didn't go on them and start calling them names.

ETA, ok I might have made a joke here and there but I never would've said others who are engaging shouldn't.  The only time I would've said don't engage is with trolls and I don't think PG is being a troll at all.  He's entitled to his belief.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: waldo on April 17, 2018, 11:55:53 am
Not that small. Roughly 20% want to end all abortion. Of the 77% who support abortion, about 53% support abortion on demand. That leaves a sizable group of people who either want to ban abortion or simply want some laws in place to control it.

Fun fact. There are more than twice as many people who want to ban abortion as their are people living in Atlantic Canada. Should we say those people in the four eastern provinces have no right to disagree or discuss anything because they're the minority?

bullshyte artist! By the numbers you've put forward you're referencing the same Ipsos 2017 single poll (for what any single poll is worth), that I referred to in an earlier post in this thread... that I actually identified as being from an Ipsos 2017 poll. That poll states:
Quote
Conversely, about one in ten Canadians (12%) feel abortion should not be permitted. This group is split between those who think abortion should only be permitted when the life of the mother is in danger (7%), and those who are completely opposed to it under any circumstance (5%)
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 17, 2018, 12:01:05 pm
Then don't read cybers post. Or if you do (and did) then why claim he's shutting down debate like some common lefty?
He didn't shut anything down as proven by you answering his post.
 Somebody saying this subject is stupid and pointless and that the OP is basically a troll is a legitimate position to take.
 Cyber didn't shut down a goddamn thing because neither he nor anyone else (except perhaps the moderator if there is one) has any power over what you think or say or type.

 Cybercoma hasn't even started to shut you down. When he shows up and takes you keyboard let me know.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 12:03:59 pm
There is no debate. The whole idea that there is a debate to be had is ridiculous.

You sound like a dictator.  That's what self-righteousness does.  Did you write the Canada Summer Jobs program declaration too?

I'm not trying to change the law, I'm having a discussion, which is harmless.  You're so tolerant and such an advocate of diversity, but you have zero tolerance for those that disagree with you and have little respect for a diversity of ideas, like most who share your dangerous anti-democratic ideology which has been spreading through university campuses lately. 

You don't just disagree with me, you show such vile, seething contempt and resentment towards me and my views.  You have deep resentment and hatred in your heart, and that only leads down a path to evil.  Like hauling Linsday Shepherd in front of an inquisition for daring to show a clip from publicly funded TVO.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 12:05:24 pm
Why?  Even if he's completely anti-abortion, his opinion or anyone like him is not going to change our laws. 

It seems we're pretty much all pro-choice to varying levels, isn't this the perfect forum for him to explore opposing opinions?  He said he's gone back and forth and wants to see if he can be swayed back.

It's not like he's protesting outside an abortion clinic.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 12:13:51 pm
Cybercoma hasn't even started to shut you down. When he shows up and takes you keyboard let me know.

That's not the only way to shut down a debate.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 12:19:14 pm
I agree with the better education part.  Speaking strictly from my own personal experience and not for anyone else, there is this mentality that I was brought up about abortion with which irks me now that I'm older.  I was told that it's nothing but cells in the beginning when it's actually not true.  There is a heartbeat quite early on and the fetus is formed by around 12 weeks. 

I never understood why a debate even exists and I feel it's because I wasn't really given an accurate picture of what the beginning entails.  Even though I could never be anti-choice, I wish the opposite wasn't 'it's really nothing but a few cells'.

I wouldn't go full Sarah Palin, or Poonlight Graham, and think that all life must be born and I don't think people should have babies that are unwanted, but I evolved on when life begins and became personally anti-abortion (in that I wouldn't have one myself).

Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 12:43:45 pm
This **** normalizes the idea that this is a contested domain and it's not.

You fear debate and free speech.  Like Mr. Trudeau on this issue.  When exactly does opinion become truth? When you say so?  Might as well shut down this whole site then and start up a Facebook app to indoctrinate people.  If you had the power to lock this thread, would you?  Is it that dangerous?  Have you ever read Fahrenheit 451 or George Orwell?

Quote
More importantly the entire premise of the thread is bullshit. "Teach me!" As if anything anyone is going to say will convince him. If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself. There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed, whether he wants a medical, legal or philosophical perspective. It's not someone else's job to convince him. If he's too damn lazy to educate himself on the topic, then nothing anyone says here is going to make a damn bit of difference. It's insincere sea-lioning. That's it. There's no honest debate to be had here. There's no public debate on the topic, period.

I've changed my mind before, I can change it again.  If my mind wasn't open to change based on reasonable evidence and logic I'd shoot myself, it's the whole point of debate & learning.  If you don't believe me, I don't really care.  If you want to spread false accusations about me based on little evidence, have fun.  "Sea-lioning"?, is that a new radical university-progressivist term designed to shut me up?  If you're not interested in debate, please get out of my thread and stop derailing it with your childish flame-war ad hominem BS.  If not, i'll get JMT to do it for me (if he's still around...).

I was never banned from MLW, maybe there was a good reason you were, I dunno.  I came here to get away from this shyte.

Quote
If he wants to know why abortion should be allowed, he should go educate himself.

That's what I'm doing.

Quote
There's myriad resources out there explaining why abortion is allowed.

Post some links, I'll read them. *gasp*
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2018, 12:44:28 pm
Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.

You are a bundle of cells that has matured to a point were it can survive on its own. A zygote is not.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Goddess on April 17, 2018, 12:46:56 pm
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2018, 12:51:58 pm
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.

Which is why I think our Supreme Court was wise when they simply tore that page out of the criminal code which allowed that significant  decision to be made by a woman and her doctor. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 12:58:41 pm
I am pro-choice and I have run through many scenarios in my head of what the circumstances would have to be for me to choose an abortion.  (Obviously, this is no longer an issue - Yay, menopause!  :))  So I am very clear on what the boundaries would be - for myself,  personally.  Pro-choice means I allow others the same choice of defining their own boundaries.

When I worked for the Doctor, I had to arrange abortions for patients.  I remember one woman in particular was just in total anguish over the decision - she waited til the last legal minute to decide and sobbed every time she came into the clinic.  It irritates me when anti-abortionists portray the women involved as just merrily going through life, getting knocked up and aborting thoughtlessly.  In my experience, this is seldom the case.  It's an agonizing decision, hard on a woman's body and hard on the emotions.  I can't tell someone else what decsion they are able to live with the consequences of and what personal factors they need to consider. 

So the whole "When does life begin?" "What if a woman is ****?" etc.....these are personal questions, which can only be answered by the individual women.  Some women who are **** and get pregnant keep the baby and raise it, others are not able emotionally to carry their rapist's baby for 9 months and then give it up for adoption.......

It's best if each decides for themselves, based on their own circumstances and beliefs.

Even though I think life begins much earlier than most, there are some circumstances under which I would have an abortion too.

Having said that, I still think people should have a right to discuss it without being shamed.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 01:09:59 pm
Well I'm glad you've thought a lot about the matter.  Not that a pro-choice person hasn't, but I hadn't fully heard all the arguments when i was pro-choice, and I'm sure I still haven't, hence this thread.  Hopefully I can share some of the arguments I've learned with others who may not have heard them.  It's amazing what can be learned by just listening with an open mind.

The common argument that early life is just "a bundle of cells" is ridiculous.  You and I are just a bundle of cells too I guess.  A bundle of cells would be more like me scraping some dead skin off the inside of my cheek and spitting it onto a microscope lens.

I agree with the better education aspect because it really worked for me in making sure I tried to prevent an unwanted pregnancy but as I just said in my previous post, there are circumstances where I would get an abortion too. 

We all have varying levels of what's an acceptable reason, but at the end of the day, I shouldn't judge other people's reasons any more than I feel people should judge mine.

Even though philosophically I get that, abortions based on gender really make me sad.  More for humanity though than for the fetus.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Goddess on April 17, 2018, 02:06:10 pm
abortions based on gender really make me sad.  More for humanity though than for the fetus.

Me too.  Aborting because of gender takes it to a whole 'nother level for me.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 02:27:01 pm
I think you (Cybercoma in reply 35) may be on to something.
Equating abortion to genocide and mass killings then claiming pregnant woman are irresponsibly choosing to abort indicates that his position - like mine - is not open for rational debate.

Firstly, you're the person who "liked" cyber's original profanity-laced insult to me.  That's been noted, thanks for the great contribution to this discussion!  I know this topic gets very emotionally charged, but that's uncalled for.

2ndly, use logic to convince me how the killing of many millions of innocent human lives is not mass murder, or not a type of unborn-baby genocide.  Here's your logic from a previous reply that i hadn't had a chance to respond to, since it's basically me here vs everyone else:

Quote
First off, abortion is not killing - as in murder.  The fetus, or baby if you find that a more preferable term, has no existence as an individual separate from the mother. it is entirely 100% dependant upon the mother for all sustenance. It can't even leave or wander away from its mother. It has no known thought process or desires or wishes or wants. not even a survival instinct. There is nothing about the baby to suggest that it is a separate human entity from mom.

It has a heartbeat, a brain, spinal cord, legs, arms etc.  All of it starts to appear and grow within the 1st trimester.  A common strategy to argue pro-choice is to dehumanize the growing human, and I did this for a long time too.  If we can convince ourselves that this growing being isn't fully human, it makes it morally digestible for us to be able to end its life.  The horrific dark reality to this is that this is exactly the same tactic that racists used to legitimize slavery of blacks, and the exact same tactic that Nazis used to enslave & commit mass murder against the Jews.  If they are dehumanized, seen as less than human, we have a moral loophole to enslave & murder these people, en masse.  Think about that for a minute.

And yes here you have this growing little human life 100% completely dependent on the mother.  A common pro-choice argument is to say that the baby is using the mother's body as its slave, it's holding her hostage to survive. This is argument is an abomination.  If anything, it's the mother who is keeping the baby as its slave.  The mother is the one whose decisions & actions led to the creation of the baby & it had no choice, and now this baby's life is 100% dependent on the mother.  The mother was 100% aware her actions could lead to pregnancy if proper precautions were not taken.  Here's a very bold comparison that may offend you and others, but think about it for a minute: mothers who choose abortion are the slave owners, the baby is the slave, the womb is the concentration camp, the abortion clinic is the gas chamber, the doctor is the executioner (consensually following orders), Trudeau is the dictator (do and think as I say, there is no debate), the laws are the laws, the people who support or follow along are just people all the same.  Yeah that comparison might seem pretty crazy at first, but think about it.  Just under a million babies aborted in the USA every year, the vast majority of those would be walking & talking right now.  About 230 induced abortions per 1000 live births in USA every year.  That's a lot!  So, is it so crazy to call it a kind of genocide?  Mass murder?  Are the people who oppose abortion evil bible-thumpers who just want to "control women's bodies", or are many of these people (especially in US) well-meaning Christians who value life and the responsibility of having sex, and who didn't grow up in a culture where you f*cked anyone you wanted whenever you wanted before marriage.  I'm not religious btw.

Quote
The pregnancy could very well be against her will. She may have wanted the sexual congress but not want the pregnancy that resulted. Where do you get off deciding that if she engages in sexual intercourse she must want to be pregnant? That is something that you cannot possibly know or even safely assume.  She could very well have taken proper precautions. Even if she didn't take precautions niether your moral values or anyone else moral values get to trump her moral values regarding what she does with her own body. If she doesn't wish to be pregnant or remain pregnant you got no ground to impose your morality on her.
  The baby has never had any choice about wether it lives or dies. It doesn't even choose to exist. Biology makes that choice, not that biology actually chooses anything.  The baby is not a separate entity from the mother until birth.
 And , yes its a selfish argument. It has to be because it only concerns the pregnant person and her alone. Wether she continues the pregnancy or ends it, in either case its a selfish decision

In life, if you assume the risks you should have to deal with the consequences of those risks, not find the easiest cop-out that's most convenient for you regardless of the life you created.  Sex isn't a joke, it's not all happy fun sexy times with no consequences.  There's a reason why evolution made it so children can't have babies: they aren't mature enough for those decisions or the life-and-death responsibilities that come with them.  Everyone who has sex knows there's a risk to get pregnant if you don't take proper precautions.  People want to have their cake and eat it too.  Maybe we should all take sex much more seriously than we do, because we have the power of a god to create life, or take it away.  There's nothing more serious we'll ever do in our lives than have sex. "I forgot to take my birth control so I let him f*ck me bareback in the ass and the semen leaked out when I farted & slipped inside my vag & now i'm pregnant".  Sorry I don't feel bad for you, you made a horrible decision and you're now a mommy, great story to tell the kids!

The reason I have to impose my morality on her is because there's another human life inside her now that her decisions created.  If you want to kill it, I consider that my business.  I don't give a crap what you do with the rest of your body, I care about that baby.

Quote
She could very well have taken proper precautions.

Use a birth control pill, condom, smother it with spermicide, and use the rhythm method...maybe even an IUD. I can give you 100% guarantee, not 99.999%, but 100% that if you practice all those safe methods together properly as per instructions you won't ever get pregnant.  I've been using birth control properly with careful attention to proper application all my life with 100% success, so have most of my friends.  If you're really worried, add the clipping of vas deferens to the birth control mix.  Sucking an innocent baby out of your uterus and/or giving the baby lethal injection & then sucking it out isn't a morally acceptable method of birth control IMO.

Quote
you are correct in pointing out that In order for his mind to be changed entire books about philosophy need be read and considered. The entire legal history surrounding abortions must also be reviewed and considered.
His entire concept of responsibility must also be considered in light of the law, philosophy and logic.

This is not the arena in which such things are done.

Yes it absolutely is.  Feel free to throw a few links my way.  Or have you painted me as evil already, the vile resentment towards me unchangeable?  Lesson #1: Empathize with your enemy.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 02:31:23 pm
Me too.  Aborting because of gender takes it to a whole 'nother level for me.

Because the baby is obviously 'wanted' and there are no physical or mental disabilities to take away the quality of life, and the parents' lives are in a way that they are both wanting to have a baby together and it just comes down to they don't want a girl. 

It devalues women in particular so more people are obviously going to be uneasy about it. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 02:33:03 pm
on that statistical support aspect, for what any single poll/survey is worth: per a 2017 Ipsos poll

I'm not a dictator.  Democracy is democracy, voters should ultimately decide abortion law.  I also wouldn't ban abortion if the mother's life is at stake, or in cases of ****, among other special circumstances.  **** means she didn't give consent, and her actions didn't create the baby, but it still comes with moral problems.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 02:35:05 pm
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.

If I create you because I want to have happy fun sexy times but I make a horribly bad decision, and then I kill you, and then somebody objects to that...who's the one being oppressive?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 02:41:12 pm
Trudeau is the dictator (do and think as I say, there is no debate)

What do you think of him forcing a pipeline through BC against the wishes of the government? 

You haven't commented much on that thread, but from the posts you "Agree" with, I get the feeling you don't mind a little selective dictatorship from the feds.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 02:46:22 pm
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 02:56:01 pm
And I have a right to call their stance utterly stupid. Like I said, it's not up to me, you or anyone else on this board to educate someone on the things that already exist. It is not an honest discussion. And it's my "right" to call it the bullshit that it is.

I look at this nonsense like trying to convince betsy that the Bible is not real. There's literally zero point in doing that. Kimmy had a long drawn-out discussion about the Great Flood with her. It was entirely fruitless. That's because when someone digs in, they are not open to reason and they are not open to an "honest" discussion. If OP has read the political, philosophical, and legal literature on abortion and still needs convincing, then nobody here is going to do it. If he hasn't done his homework and wants us to inform him, then forget him. It's not my job to educate someone on readily available information. But that presupposes that it's an honest debate in the first place, when it's not. It's exactly like trying to explain to betsy that the Great Flood was physically not possible. There's no convincing someone who doesn't accept the information that's readily available.

I don't like when what I say is called stupid.  Maybe you think it's wrong, which is fine, but it's not stupid. I think I've been posting long enough on here and the other site to prove to everyone i'm not like betsy.  She believes in dogma, i believe in facts and logic, she doesn't.  I remember a time up until a few years ago when you and I agreed on almost everything. I guess we've gone different paths, I'm ok with that, are you?

Fair enough to say i could research this topic more, My current views i've had for only about a year when i started listening (i mean, really listening, and considering) to other views, before that i was pro-choice for over a decade, and i'll admit to being no expert on the subject, though not ignorant of it all either.  If you want to share specific links to rebuke some of my points, go for it.

If you want to save the world, the key i think is to empathize with people you disagree with.  Not sympathize, but empathize, to understand why they think the way they do.  Disagree with them, but don't hate them, don't dehumanize them, most people aren't evil.  Even Hitler had good intentions (in his own mind), that doesn't mean he wasn't horribly wrong.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:00:31 pm
What do you think of him forcing a pipeline through BC against the wishes of the government? 

You haven't commented much on that thread, but from the posts you "Agree" with, I get the feeling you don't mind a little selective dictatorship from the feds.

I replied to this in the thread.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:07:33 pm
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)

ok agree to disagree then.  i'll respond to your other posts when i get the chance.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 03:21:14 pm
Ok, Mr. Graham, it seems you've made up your mind that helpless babies need protection from monstrous adults and nothing else really matters.  I shall bow politely out now, and leave you to your beliefs.  :)

We all have varying levels of how far along and for what reason abortion would be justifiable.  It's definitely a personal choice, but on a philosophical level, his argument is actually more sound. 

If it's wrong to do, the reasons shouldn't really matter.

I can be pro choice and admit the hypocrisy in placing some arbitrary justifications on it (myself included).
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:26:49 pm
The debate here was shut down once abortion was called genocide. How does one surmount that? Whats to discuss?

I never said "abortion is genocide" (to my knowledge), what I said, word for word, with intent because genocide has a very specific definition, is to argue that abortion "is a kind of genocide".  I'm saying it's a targeted, mass killing (many millions) of a specific demographic/population group (unwanted unborn babies).  That doesn't quite make it the same as traditional genocide, but also has many similarities: specific demographic target, mass killings performed by state-sanctioned executioners, dehumanization of the victims to create moral loophole to legitimize it, victim-logic narratives to excuse those who do it & support it, private and public propaganda to legitimize it, a private and public shut-down of free speech to legitimize it.  A political party (Liberals) that under its own party policy, enacted by Trudeau, requires members/candidates to affirm strict obedience to this policy to be a member.

If i'm the crazy one what the heck's with everyone else?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 03:30:15 pm
If I create you because I want to have happy fun sexy times but I make a horribly bad decision, and then I kill you, and then somebody objects to that...who's the one being oppressive?

What if birth control fails?  Should they be allowed to abort?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:35:32 pm
The most important thing of this whole issue is:  morality and opinion is subjective.  We should all be free to disagree, and respect the people we disagree with as humans with emotional opinions even when passionately disagreeing.  In a democracy, those who agree most get to set the policy/laws, which i 100% respect.  Just don't tell me I don't have a right to disagree, because that's not only against the Charter (Mr. Trudeau, that your dad put in place) it's also just totally wrong...(in my opinion! ...heheh)
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2018, 03:35:42 pm
I never said "abortion is genocide" (to my knowledge), what I said, word for word, with intent because genocide has a very specific definition, is to argue that abortion "is a kind of genocide".  I'm saying it's a targeted, mass killing (many millions) of a specific demographic/population group (unwanted unborn babies).  That doesn't quite make it the same as traditional genocide, but also has many similarities: specific demographic target, mass killings performed by state-sanctioned executioners, dehumanization of the victims to create moral loophole to legitimize it, victim-logic narratives to excuse those who do it & support it, private and public propaganda to legitimize it, a private and public shut-down of free speech to legitimize it.  A political party (Liberals) that under its own party policy, enacted by Trudeau, requires members/candidates to affirm strict obedience to this policy to be a member.

If i'm the crazy one what the heck's with everyone else?

How many abortions do you think wouldn't happen if we turned back the clock to make it illegal? How many abortion seekers would you like to see heading for the back alleys to get what they need instead of a proper hospital? How many unwanted babies would you be prepared to support when their mothers couldn't? Recall that old adage about "those who don't learn history"?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:36:41 pm
What if birth control fails?  Should they be allowed to abort?

from what i said to Peter F:

Quote
Use a birth control pill, condom, smother it with spermicide, and use the rhythm method...maybe even an IUD. I can give you 100% guarantee, not 99.999%, but 100% that if you practice all those safe methods together properly as per instructions you won't ever get pregnant.  I've been using birth control properly with careful attention to proper application all my life with 100% success, so have most of my friends.  If you're really worried, add the clipping of vas deferens to the birth control mix.  Sucking an innocent baby out of your uterus and/or giving the baby lethal injection & then sucking it out isn't a morally acceptable method of birth control IMO.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 03:45:57 pm
How many abortions do you think wouldn't happen if we turned back the clock to make it illegal? How many abortion seekers would you like to see heading for the back alleys to get what they need instead of a proper hospital?

1. I don't know, good question.  2.  Zero.

**** and murder is illegal, but they still happen, should we legalize it?  Is it morally ok?  Maybe it would be better to put that money into access to birth control and educating people, especially young people and from poor communities/homes, and about personal responsibility, especially in matters of sex. 

Quote
How many unwanted babies would you be prepared to support when their mothers couldn't? Recall that old adage about "those who don't learn history"?

How much is a human life worth to you?  Should we execute people who become disabled because they're inconvenient, costly, and not wanted?  How about old people with dementia, or people in a longterm coma who have a decent likelihood of recovering?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: ?Impact on April 17, 2018, 03:48:32 pm
Quote
Use a birth control pill, condom, smother it with spermicide, and use the rhythm method...maybe even an IUD.
With all that, virtual sex is beginning to look more desirable.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: BC_cheque on April 17, 2018, 03:49:36 pm
from what i said to Peter F:

I wasn't talking about condoms, I know they're not very effective.  I was talking about IUD's (which have been known to slip out undetected) and birth control pills (which aren't always effective either).   

For me the level of effort to not get pregnant is a pretty important one, but I guess for you it's either abstinence or face the consequences. 

We'll just have to disagree on that because it brings us back to the point of unwanted children in this world and their quality of life.

ETA, I don't think abstinence is a reasonable option either, we are sexual beings. 
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 17, 2018, 03:57:20 pm
If it's wrong to do, the reasons shouldn't really matter.

The idea that human life is sacred and should be protected and preserved underpins this moral argument.  But humans do not and have never believed that human life is sacred, else we would not any kind of State sanctioned killing, or war.  Killing other humans is and always has been a matter of tradeoffs, expediency vs. morality.   That is who humans are and have been, and while we may think we should be or could be better than that, we aren't.  Perhaps we could be, but that would require a sea change of human nature and as I posted earlier, cherishing born humans is the place to start, rather than forcing women to have babies they may not feel capable of raising for whatever reason, or of being able to adopt out.  There are already many kids waiting for adoption, many kids in government care.  Cherish and protect them first.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2018, 03:57:34 pm
1. I don't know, good question.  2.  Zero.

**** and murder is illegal, but they still happen, should we legalize it?  Is it morally ok?  Maybe it would be better to put that money into access to birth control and educating people, especially young people and from poor communities/homes, and about personal responsibility, especially in matters of sex. 

How much is a human life worth to you?  Should we execute people who become disabled because they're inconvenient, costly, and not wanted?  How about old people with dementia, or people in a longterm coma who have a decent likelihood of recovering?

That was my point, **** and murder happen even though they are illegal acts. And yes, I have said previously I would much rather see birth control used rather than abortion.
And no we don't execute disabled people but families are allowed to decide to pull the plug on that coma victim.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Goddess on April 17, 2018, 04:12:00 pm
The idea that human life is sacred and should be protected and preserved underpins this moral argument.  But humans do not and have never believed that human life is sacred, else we would not any kind of State sanctioned killing, or war.  Killing other humans is and always has been a matter of tradeoffs, expediency vs. morality.   That is who humans are and have been, and while we may think we should be or could be better than that, we aren't.  Perhaps we could be, but that would require a sea change of human nature and as I posted earlier, cherishing born humans is the place to start, rather than forcing women to have babies they may not feel capable of raising for whatever reason, or of being able to adopt out.  There are already many kids waiting for adoption, many kids in government care.  Cherish and protect them first.

And quality of life.  Quality of life is a consideration in many of our societal decisions.  As Omni pointed out - like when families have to decide whether to pull the plug on a comatose/brain dead family member.

Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 04:45:22 pm
To cybercoma and whoever else dares to make completely unsubstantiated "claims" to my "intents" to this thread, and to question my "sea-lioning" closeminded-ness and to accuse me of not being willing to change my mind...I have proven over thousands of posts and about a decade posting with all of you here and on "the other forum" that I'm not only willing to change my mind, but one of the most willing!

If anyone's been paying attention, over the last couple of years i've transformed from being a staunch leftist and agreeing with cybercoma on most topics to becoming a centrist and embracing a bunch of rightwing views (along with leftwing ones i keep) and butting heads with cyber much more as a result.  I've not only changed my views on many issues, but my entire moral foundation and fundamental ideology of how i view the world has changed.  This isn't on a whim, or by reading a couple of article, I've spend decades pondering deeply about these meta issues, i spent much of my academic career reading the philosophies of Marx and Friedman, Socrates and Nietzsche, and many hours listening to Chomsky and Ben Shapiro, Jon Stewart & Ezra Levant, like we all have.  And i've tried to listen to all of you over the years, with as much respect as an imperfect person can muster, so thank you all for that!

The philosophical change I've had has been the most amazing intellectual experience of my life, because i can understand leftists just as equally as rightwingers.  One day maybe i'll get around to showing you how i did this.  I know why cyber and SJ think how they do, i don't see either as evil or as my enemy, i don't hate them, I empathize with them as good people who want good things for this world but often have fundamentally opposing views on how to achieve this better world because their ideologies are not only different, they're polar opposites, based on the values they choose to emphasize as most important.  Empathizing with those we vehemently disagree with, trying to understand why they think what they do, is what's needed to save the world.  Resentment, thinking people as "evil" is a complete waste of energy and only leads to conflict & suffering.  What needs to be done like is what our MP's are supposed to be doing on Parliament, which is people who disagree need to sit down and talk like respectful adults, hash things out, compromise if necessary, and make sure as many people in the country and the world are listened to & respected and have the ability to pursue their own wants/needs...as long as it doesn't trample on the needs/wants of others.  We need to create a world where not only do we let everyone grab a microphone and sing as loud as they can, we need to build the stage to let that happen, and hold the mic for them if necessary, and stand in the crowd and cheer them on.  If we don't do this, people will always find other ways and times to sing when they see we're sleeping & not at the mic, and when these people start singing while we're asleep we won't be happy.  It's been done to blacks, women, LGBT, Muslims, Quebecois, natives, Sunnis & Shiites, Catholics & Protestants, Jews & Palestinians, Tutsis & Hutus etc. etc. & it always ends in suffering.

*steps down from soapbox*
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: ?Impact on April 17, 2018, 05:02:46 pm
I have proven over thousands of posts and about a decade posting with all of you here and on "the other forum" that I'm not only willing to change my mind, but one of the most willing!

Quite a change from "I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong." to a soapbox of understanding and compromise; and all that in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 17, 2018, 06:23:45 pm
I never said "abortion is genocide" (to my knowledge), what I said, word for word, with intent because genocide has a very specific definition, is to argue that abortion "is a kind of genocide".  I'm saying it's a targeted, mass killing (many millions) of a specific demographic/population group (unwanted unborn babies).  That doesn't quite make it the same as traditional genocide, but also has many similarities: specific demographic target, mass killings performed by state-sanctioned executioners, dehumanization of the victims to create moral loophole to legitimize it, victim-logic narratives to excuse those who do it & support it, private and public propaganda to legitimize it, a private and public shut-down of free speech to legitimize it.  A political party (Liberals) that under its own party policy, enacted by Trudeau, requires members/candidates to affirm strict obedience to this policy to be a member.

If i'm the crazy one what the heck's with everyone else?

  lordy. you argue that abortion is 'kind of genocide'. Then explain why genocide is an apt term. Then claim you're not really calling it genocide? If you don't think its genocide then don't use the term. Don't be arguing that genocide has a very specific definition then try to shoe-horn abortion in there.
  You claim similarities:
   Specific demographic target.  What is the specific demographic? Pregnant women who do not want to be pregnant? Babies perhaps? Can't be because abortionists aren't rounding up babies and killing them. Oh, babies in ****-mothers wombs! That demographic.?  The demographic of being a baby in a womb of which the entirety of the human race in all its billions came from?  Genocided .  pretty feeble argument for genocide if the vast majority of babies in wombs aren't killed by the abortionists.
   Dehumanization of the victims? How so? They're fetuses. They have no civil or human rights attached to them by societies all over the world. What dehumanization is taking place?
 For dehumanization to take place they first need be actual humans with certain rights and legal recognition. They have none and have never had any. They will have all those things when they are born just like every other live birth in this land. Nothing is being denied them.  There is no dehumanization in genocidal terms taking place. Thats a fantasy in your own head and nowhere else. 
   Moral loopholes?  What loophole? there is no moral loophole.
   State sanctioned Executioners?  You mean actual doctors?
   Victim-logic exercise for excuses?   Bullshit.  I understand that you personally require that. I certainly don't. Somebody wants an abortion they get one and their reasons for doing so have no bearing on anything.  Very simple. No excuses asked for or required. No moral loopholes to search for. No need to cook up justifications to please you anyone else.  Thus no victim logic exercises... But under your system they would certainly be required. Victim-logic of **** being one instance you alluded to. Victim-logic of life-of-the-mother being another. None of that bullshit required in my world.
  Private and Public Propaganda to legitimize it?  Lord Jeebus...where have you been for the last 50 years for all your deep consideration of the subject? In a cave?  All the morgantaler acquittals were propaganda?  The supreme court references were propaganda?   The Daigle case was propaganda?   Debates in parliament were propaganda? Harper's swearing up and down to never bring the abortion issue to a vote was propaganda?
  A private and public shut down of discussion? Bullshit. You're talking aren't you? That I or Cybercoma or whoever else oppose you views - even find much of those views reprehensible - is not shutting you down.   Stop trying to play the victim of a bunch of free-speech hating lefties .  You have not been victimized in any way whatsoever.
 
As for Trueau and the liberals: Damn right they do. They are a political party and at the moment unrestricted access to abortion is their party policy. Very simple: If you don't like that then don't join the liberal party.   


Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 17, 2018, 06:39:02 pm
Quite a change from "I'll then respond by showing you why everything we've been convinced to believe about pro-choice is completely wrong." to a soapbox of understanding and compromise; and all that in a couple of days.

You missed the other part of my OP post, conveniently.

I'm willing to listen, to change my mind if convinced by what i see as sound argument, to agree about abortion happening in special circumstances, and to submit to whatever laws the majority decides.  That's my compromise on this issue at least.  I'm not an MP, i don't have to negotiate my views to pass laws, but i could if i had to.

I feel pretty confident in my logic, so far.  I never was about this issue in the past, but it seems pretty clear to me now.  That's why yes I dare you to prove me wrong, millions of lives are at stake on this issue.  Some good points have been made here to make me think, ie: if there aren't enough people to adopt & kids grow up unloved, is abortion ok then?  Maybe yes.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 07:29:42 pm
Lets not confuse calling out something with shutting down the discussion
Exactly.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest7 on April 17, 2018, 07:49:16 pm
Cool, well have fun legitimizing oppressive beliefs under laughably fake mask of "genuine" discussion.

Hey, Burkas!
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: cybercoma on April 17, 2018, 07:52:44 pm
Hey, Burkas!
Why not read accounts from Muslim women about the significance of the burka for them and why they continue to wear it here despite their husband’s wishes? You’re completely clueless on this topic too, obviously.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: JMT on April 17, 2018, 08:05:20 pm
I did something about it.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest7 on April 17, 2018, 08:06:17 pm
Why not read accounts from Muslim women about the significance of the burka for them and why they continue to wear it here despite their husband’s wishes? You’re completely clueless on this topic too, obviously.

Yes, if you like...
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 17, 2018, 08:27:20 pm
Why not read accounts from Muslim women about the significance of the burka for them and why they continue to wear it here despite their husband’s wishes? You’re completely clueless on this topic too, obviously.

Do you imagine 'saving babies' isn't significant to a devout Christian? But you don't respect devout Christians because they're members of the 'oppressive capitalist' society whereas devout Muslims are 'oppressed brown people who are the victims of colonialism and racism'. Thus they must be protected and sympathized with no matter what they think or do or say.

The amusing thing about that is that devout Muslims believe athiesm and abortion are crimes (as are homosexuality and blaspheme) and Leftists are jailed and tortured in many Muslim countries.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Omni on April 17, 2018, 08:45:50 pm
Do you imagine 'saving babies' isn't significant to a devout Christian? But you don't respect devout Christians because they're members of the 'oppressive capitalist' society whereas devout Muslims are 'oppressed brown people who are the victims of colonialism and racism'. Thus they must be protected and sympathized with no matter what they think or do or say.

The amusing thing about that is that devout Muslims believe athiesm and abortion are crimes (as are homosexuality and blaspheme) and Leftists are jailed and tortured in many Muslim countries.

Do you ever actually follow a topic without raining down you xenophobia/bigotry?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: SirJohn on April 17, 2018, 09:17:50 pm
Do you ever actually follow a topic without raining down you xenophobia/bigotry?

Do you ever actually discuss a topic rather than bleating about the imaginary failings of those who ARE?

If you ever find something I say you can disprove, go for it. Sniveling because you don't like that I said it is really a waste of time.
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Peter F on April 18, 2018, 09:18:31 pm
To cybercoma and whoever else dares to make completely unsubstantiated "claims" to my "intents" to this thread, and to question my "sea-lioning" closeminded-ness and to accuse me of not being willing to change my mind...I have proven over thousands of posts and about a decade posting with all of you here and on "the other forum" that I'm not only willing to change my mind, but one of the most willing!

If anyone's been paying attention, over the last couple of years i've transformed from being a staunch leftist and agreeing with cybercoma on most topics to becoming a centrist and embracing a bunch of rightwing views (along with leftwing ones i keep) and butting heads with cyber much more as a result.  I've not only changed my views on many issues, but my entire moral foundation and fundamental ideology of how i view the world has changed.  This isn't on a whim, or by reading a couple of article, I've spend decades pondering deeply about these meta issues, i spent much of my academic career reading the philosophies of Marx and Friedman, Socrates and Nietzsche, and many hours listening to Chomsky and Ben Shapiro, Jon Stewart & Ezra Levant, like we all have.  And i've tried to listen to all of you over the years, with as much respect as an imperfect person can muster, so thank you all for that!

The philosophical change I've had has been the most amazing intellectual experience of my life, because i can understand leftists just as equally as rightwingers.  One day maybe i'll get around to showing you how i did this.  I know why cyber and SJ think how they do, i don't see either as evil or as my enemy, i don't hate them, I empathize with them as good people who want good things for this world but often have fundamentally opposing views on how to achieve this better world because their ideologies are not only different, they're polar opposites, based on the values they choose to emphasize as most important.  Empathizing with those we vehemently disagree with, trying to understand why they think what they do, is what's needed to save the world.  Resentment, thinking people as "evil" is a complete waste of energy and only leads to conflict & suffering.  What needs to be done like is what our MP's are supposed to be doing on Parliament, which is people who disagree need to sit down and talk like respectful adults, hash things out, compromise if necessary, and make sure as many people in the country and the world are listened to & respected and have the ability to pursue their own wants/needs...as long as it doesn't trample on the needs/wants of others.  We need to create a world where not only do we let everyone grab a microphone and sing as loud as they can, we need to build the stage to let that happen, and hold the mic for them if necessary, and stand in the crowd and cheer them on.  If we don't do this, people will always find other ways and times to sing when they see we're sleeping & not at the mic, and when these people start singing while we're asleep we won't be happy.  It's been done to blacks, women, LGBT, Muslims, Quebecois, natives, Sunnis & Shiites, Catholics & Protestants, Jews & Palestinians, Tutsis & Hutus etc. etc. & it always ends in suffering.

*steps down from soapbox*

   Ok, there's your sincere belief and sorta how you got there and it's all very nice.   I must admit that I got all riled up about calling abortion Genocide-like and equating abortion to Mass Killing.  I find both genocide and mass killings abhorrent things and anyone participating in them should be punished to the full extent of the law.   Ok, you're a reasonable human who has empathy to those with opposing views .  Plus you are one who will seek compromise. Whats wrong with empathy and seeking compromise? why nothing of course. so lets see, in the aim of rational, reasonable, respectful debate, lets explore a bit and see if there may be some compromise out there.

  The genocidal-like situation of abortion: Would certain restrictions on abortions remove the genocide-like aspect to abortion?  Well, not if the resulting restrictions didn't significantly reduce the genocide-like and mass-killing like aspect.  The restrictions required would actually have to result in fewer abortions.   
   So the question now is: How many abortions are required to meet the Genocide-like aspect?  If we knew that, then we could perhaps figure something out that would come in under that number?
   No. Thats rediculous. It isn't how many abortions occur.  As long as abortion is, in coonlights view, directed towards the demographic of babies-in- the- wombs- of-women-who-seek-abortion, then the genocide-like       aspect will still stand.
   IF the genocide-like aspect remains then there is no way coonlight graham can accept that abortions be allowed.
   OR maybe  Coonlight Graham is willing to make a compromise regarding the genocide-like aspect!  Maybe, just maybe, there is some condition of genocide-like that he would find the mass-killings of abortion acceptable?    I wouldn't if I believed abortion to be genocide-like, but hey, Empathy, maybe CG would.
   Hows about we somehow screw about with the demographic of babies-in-wombs-of-women-seeking-abortions?   Maybe if abortion wasn't so directly confined to that demographic? That would remove the road-block of genocide-like.    Hmmm.    Conundrum.   The only people who want the abortions get the abortions and yet they are of the demographic abortion is aimed at.
  I'm stumped.
 Perhaps Coonlight Graham has some idea where a compromise can be reached?


 

 

   
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: Goddess on April 19, 2018, 09:43:49 am
I'm curious whether Mr. Graham feels there should ever be a time when an abortion is acceptable to him?  Or is it any abortion he's against?
Title: Re: Why should abortion be allowed?
Post by: guest4 on April 19, 2018, 10:52:20 am
I'm curious whether Mr. Graham feels there should ever be a time when an abortion is acceptable to him?  Or is it any abortion he's against?

In message 27 he said:
Quote
So why not ban abortion then, except in cases of **** and danger to mother's health and certain other special circumstances?