Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Michael Hardner on April 04, 2018, 07:01:49 am


Title: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 04, 2018, 07:01:49 am
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/apr/04/china-us-trade-war-tariffs-wpp-markets-eurozone-jobs-business-live

Quote
America is waking up to the news that China and the US have taken another step closer to a trade war that could hurt the global economy badly.

A few hours ago, China announced plans to impose 25% tariffs on a swathe of US goods. The list includes soybeans, cars and aircraft -- three key export areas. Beef, cigars and whiskey are all on the list too.

How does Trump, who bragged about the DOW spikes not see the reality of what he is doing here ?
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 08:38:53 am
Trade wars are good and easy to win. Donald said so himself.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: kimmy on April 04, 2018, 09:12:53 am
I guess he's not proud of the Dow Jones Index anymore.

 -k
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 09:31:36 am
This **** is costing me money. At the same time, Trump is absolutely correct in that China has been cheating everyone blind for years. It sells its crap everywhere but it imports almost nothing if it can make it itself. It extorts companies to give up trade secrets and forces them into partnership (read bribes) with government friends. It pillages their computers for research and new developments it can then gift to government owned and operated companies. It ships steel and other goods to third countries, has them relabeled as products of Vietnam or Thailand or South Korea or wherever, and then ships them to the West to get around restrictions and levees because of their illegal dumping.

And it uses the vast profits of all this to enhance, expand and modernize its military.

There is no question, as I understand it, of whether there will be a real war with China, but when it will occur.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 04, 2018, 10:01:56 am
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feconbrowser.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Fuschinavatb.png&hash=3ae0dda9c8bfdbe50c5eda65f8038028882b6a00)

Question: how many 'exports' are from American companies in China like Apple ?
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: TimG on April 04, 2018, 10:26:29 am
Trade wars are good and easy to win. Donald said so himself.
By picking fights with everyone, Trump has ensured the US will lose. It is reminiscent of the German two front war during WW2 that did the Germans in. A smarter man than Trump would have played nice with allies like Europe/Japan and co-ordinated specific attacks against China that China could not retaliate in kind. For example, any patent/ip rights held by companies like Huawai, Alibaba or Lenovo could be suspended until such time as China starts providing recourse for western companies. Another example would to require US partners and technology transfer before any '"added value" Chinese company is allowed to sell in the US.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 10:31:45 am
By picking fights with everyone, Trump has ensured the US will lose.

Correct. One of the reasons this is roiling the stock markets is because no one has a clue what Trump is doing or if Trump himself has a clue what he's doing. If he'd just gone after China it wouldn't have cost such damage, but he's going after everyone at the same time, and often in bombastic style like threatening to scrap NAFTA. So the real fear is this is going to result in a world wide trade war like the one which helped bring on and extend the great depression. If he had more than half a brain he'd be using NAFTA to threaten the Chinese. Mexican workers make a hell of a lot less than Chinese workers and it might be easier for the US to bring offshore production from China to Mexico, which would not only further slow illegal immigration (NAFTA has already pretty much eliminated Mexican illegal immigration) but would allow for easier US production to be used in concert with Mexican.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 11:11:47 am
And it uses the vast profits of all this to enhance, expand and modernize its military.

Which military superpower got to where they are by doing thing ethically?

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 12:00:23 pm
Which military superpower got to where they are by doing thing ethically?

There is no perfection in the world. But China has proven time and again that it will do whatever it wants to do, without regard to treaties, international agreements, international law, or simple humanity. It is an authoritarian dictatorship run by corrupt communist party members and seeking influence through bribery, threats or other coercion, over everyone it deals with. Its human rights record is one of the most appalling in the world and getting worse, not better. As such it is unquestionably our enemy.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 12:02:45 pm
There is no perfection in the world. But China has proven time and again that it will do whatever it wants to do, without regard to treaties, international agreements, international law, or simple humanity. It is an authoritarian dictatorship run by corrupt communist party members and seeking influence through bribery, threats or other coercion, over everyone it deals with. Its human rights record is one of the most appalling in the world and getting worse, not better. As such it is unquestionably our enemy.

I know, I'm not defending China, but you think the US or Britain got to where they did by treating the world very nicely? 

I think it's a bit of ethnocentrism going on with the way people think China is so evil for wanting what Europeans have been doing for a long time.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 04, 2018, 12:13:04 pm
I also would like to know the answer to my question.

http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2131811/apples-china-sales-grow-second-straight-quarter-strong-iphone

Apparently Apple China has $18B in revenue alone....
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 12:21:20 pm
I know, I'm not defending China, but you think the US or Britain got to where they did by treating the world very nicely? 

No, I do not think they got the way they are for treating people nicely. But the era of colonialism and taking by force was supposed to be over. Nor does China need to do any of that, really. But it's an authoritarian regime with pretty harsh and determined views on what it should be able to get away with which are out of place with the 21st century.

Quote
I think it's a bit of ethnocentrism going on with the way people think China is so evil for wanting what Europeans have been doing for a long time.

The Europeans HAVEN'T been doing that for a long time actually. They used to. And when they did do it they didn't have nuclear weapons to play with. They also didn't murder people to harvest their organs, and it's been quite some time since they murdered political prisoners and minor criminals as readily as China does or clamped whole families into prison camps because they didn't like their religious beliefs.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 12:34:10 pm
No, I do not think they got the way they are for treating people nicely. But the era of colonialism and taking by force was supposed to be over. Nor does China need to do any of that, really. But it's an authoritarian regime with pretty harsh and determined views on what it should be able to get away with which are out of place with the 21st century.

The Europeans HAVEN'T been doing that for a long time actually. They used to. And when they did do it they didn't have nuclear weapons to play with. They also didn't murder people to harvest their organs, and it's been quite some time since they murdered political prisoners and minor criminals as readily as China does or clamped whole families into prison camps because they didn't like their religious beliefs.

The US is post-colonial superpower and they haven't played nice to get to where they are.  They may not be authoritarian in the past but Trump is definitely bringing that side out in them.  As for organ-harvesting, it wasn't too long ago America conducted medical experiments on blacks and deprived them of civil rights.

Again, I'm not defending China, they're the **** du jour, but let's not whitewash the assholery every other superpower has done to get to where they are/were.

China is not all that different for seeking power and doing what it takes to get there. 
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 12:42:47 pm
Yet we owe our country to the assholery of the British and French.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 12:50:23 pm
Yet we owe our country to the assholery of the British and French.

A First Nation Canadian would disagree.

Obviously I’d rather have he US remain on top since we’re allied with them, I just don’t agree with vilifying China for what many others before them have done.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 01:01:32 pm
A First Nation Canadian would disagree.

Obviously I’d rather have he US remain on top since we’re allied with them, I just don’t agree with vilifying China for what many others before them have done.

First Nation didn't create the parliamentary democracy we now call Canada.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 01:29:09 pm
First Nation didn't create the parliamentary democracy we now call Canada.

So what, it still doesn't mean they're grateful of this country any more than you'd be grateful if China came here and set up their system of government.  History is written by the victors but their victory came at the cost of someone else. 

China is really not all that different in their quest for domination.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 04, 2018, 01:39:44 pm
I also would like to know the answer to my question.

http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2131811/apples-china-sales-grow-second-straight-quarter-strong-iphone

Apparently Apple China has $18B in revenue alone....

Yeah sorry for the thread jack.  I don't like China's rise to power any more than anyone else but I don't like it when it's portrayed as some kind of evil anomaly.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 04:38:34 pm
So what, it still doesn't mean they're grateful of this country any more than you'd be grateful if China came here and set up their system of government.  History is written by the victors but their victory came at the cost of someone else. 

China is really not all that different in their quest for domination.

Britain itself was subject to several migrations itself. Briton, Roman, Saxon, Viking and Norman. It's the way of the world and is often double sided. Most of us feel a little nostalgia for certain aspects of our society that no longer exist but would we really want to go back to that time. FN are no different. Regardless of their present grievances, find me one who would want to return to a stone age society that had neither the wheel or horses.

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on April 04, 2018, 05:57:59 pm
find me one who would want to return to a stone age society that had neither the wheel or horses.

Yes, because they are all incompetent and unable to advance civilization.

Hardly surprising that those who practice it, don't recognize it.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 06:10:11 pm
A First Nation Canadian would disagree.

Obviously I’d rather have he US remain on top since we’re allied with them, I just don’t agree with vilifying China for what many others before them have done.

Many other nations engaged in slavery in the past. Does that suggest we should ignore those who practice it now? Standards were a lot slacker in the past than they are now. I don't believe the US ever had a 'leader for life' either, and it's been a hell of a long time since the British did either. Yet here we are in the modern era and China has one, and it's human rights violations have been getting more severe as it curtails what little freedom its people once had.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 06:11:28 pm
Yes, because they are all incompetent and unable to advance civilization.

Well, they never did before the white man.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on April 04, 2018, 06:14:41 pm
Well, they never did before the white man.

When the white man arrived here, the Earth was the center of the universe. Of course only a white man is able to advance civilization, you know that superior brain.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 04, 2018, 06:16:19 pm
When the white man arrived here, the Earth was the center of the universe. Of course only a white man is able to advance civilization, you know that superior brain.

Well, when we see what the white man built in Europe by then, and what existed in North America, I think someone might want to explain why there was such a huge difference in technical and scientific knowledge before suggesting the natives here would have advanced civilization to anything like what it is now.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 06:52:10 pm
Yes, because they are all incompetent and unable to advance civilization.

Hardly surprising that those who practice it, don't recognize it.

No, because only an idiot would want to do so. I wouldn't want to go back 300 years and live in a European society either. Would you?
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2018, 07:07:30 pm
When the white man arrived here, the Earth was the center of the universe. Of course only a white man is able to advance civilization, you know that superior brain.

Do you really think any society that didn't have metal tools could have advanced to today's level of technology in 300 years all by itself and with no incentive to do so? Europeans drew from many societies including the Middle East and Asia.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 04, 2018, 07:40:56 pm
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frs130.pbsrc.com%2Falbums%2Fp276%2FTerry1980%2FThreadDrift.gif%3Fw%3D280%26amp%3Bh%3D210%26amp%3Bfit%3Dcrop&hash=03fca493cce6a956d701b096770e64330a63b00c)
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 04, 2018, 09:41:33 pm
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frs130.pbsrc.com%2Falbums%2Fp276%2FTerry1980%2FThreadDrift.gif%3Fw%3D280%26amp%3Bh%3D210%26amp%3Bfit%3Dcrop&hash=03fca493cce6a956d701b096770e64330a63b00c)

Thanks Charles.

Zing!
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2018, 01:25:31 am
I also would like to know the answer to my question.

http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2131811/apples-china-sales-grow-second-straight-quarter-strong-iphone

Apparently Apple China has $18B in revenue alone....

Since I jacked your thread (totally inadvertently btw), I'll try and steer it back.

Here is an article I was just reading which might interest you.  It lists several big companies that will be affected. 

You already got Apple's $18B, but there's also Boeing at $12B (13% of all its revenue), Caterpillar (21.5% of revenue), and several others that sells processors to tech companies (Intel, Texas Instruments etc). 

Their stocks all fell today.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/news/companies/china-tariffs-us-multinational-sales/index.html

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 05, 2018, 05:33:26 am
I'm getting a disconnect, and also no response other than BCCs.  Now I'm wondering if I am missing something, or if we all are:

When Apple China sells iPhones in China there should be no tariff applied right ?

When Apple China sells iPhones back to the USA there should be tariffs applied right ?

This is the part of the trade imbalance I never understand: that it includes multinational American companies located in China.  So they operate as domestic companies, branch plants of US Corporations, but the profits to back to their US corporations.

This is why I'm wondering how much of the trade imbalance actually helps blue chip American companies. 
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 09:20:58 am
Good point, I doubt Trump understands it either.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2018, 09:44:20 am
I'm getting a disconnect, and also no response other than BCCs.  Now I'm wondering if I am missing something, or if we all are:

When Apple China sells iPhones in China there should be no tariff applied right ?

When Apple China sells iPhones back to the USA there should be tariffs applied right ?

This is the part of the trade imbalance I never understand: that it includes multinational American companies located in China.  So they operate as domestic companies, branch plants of US Corporations, but the profits to back to their US corporations.

This is why I'm wondering how much of the trade imbalance actually helps blue chip American companies.

I remember reading about car companies getting around China’s high tariffs on cars (~20%) by building them there so yes, it would hurt a lot of the multi national US companies.

This could all be a distraction though, Trump style. His administration is saying there’s room for negotiation even though Trump is staying defiant. He’s hopefully not that stupid.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-china-retaliates-unveils-additional-tariffs-on-50-billion-of-us/
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 10:32:11 am
I doubt there is any intellectual property involved but I notice none of the products made by Trump companies in China are subject to the tariffs. About the only thing he does have made in the US are his Make America Great Again hats.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2018, 10:48:57 am
This is why I'm wondering how much of the trade imbalance actually helps blue chip American companies.

can't find the numbers at this time... showed as significant in a past review/discussion: those 'blue-chip' American companies send significant raw materials/goods to China for manufacturing intent... impacting on the jobs/livelihoods of many hundreds of thousands of American workers - where the finished Chinese products are tagged as imports in that U.S. "balance equation". Tagged but never really emphasized/discussed openly by Trump et al.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 05, 2018, 11:36:19 am
You already got Apple's $18B, but there's also Boeing at $12B (13% of all its revenue), Caterpillar (21.5% of revenue), and several others that sells processors to tech companies (Intel, Texas Instruments etc). 

Their stocks all fell today.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/news/companies/china-tariffs-us-multinational-sales/index.html

And rose today. Actually Apple wound up finishing higher yesterday. I read that almost five million jobs in China depend on Apple. Is China going to screw around with Apple so they start closing down plants in China? Unlikely. Boeing now has plants in China, but more to the point China needs new aircraft, lots of them, and there's no other supplier who can pick up the slack if they don't buy from Boeing. There's airbus, but that would mean years of waiting on top of the time they're already waiting.

What China needs to do is put an end to the mass production of forged goods; everything from purses to DVDs both for domestic consumption and export. And it needs to stop protecting domestic manufacturers who are clearly using patented technology stolen from their western competition. But the mindset of the Chinese has always been that they'll get away with anything and everything they can get away with. They know that the attention of western politicians is fleeting, and will make pleasing sounds and agreements until their attention is on something else and then go right back to doing what they were doing.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 11:50:01 am
Certainly Chinese tariffs will make goods more expensive for Chinese just as US tariffs will make them more expensive for Americans.  Cars are interesting. The US is no longer the biggest market, China is.

Might be good for Bombardier.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2018, 11:52:06 am
But the mindset of the Chinese has always been that they'll get away with anything and everything they can get away with. They know that the attention of western politicians is fleeting, and will make pleasing sounds and agreements until their attention is on something else and then go right back to doing what they were doing.

your posts on this subject, per your norm, lack any cite/substantiation... and broader knowledge. China has a vested interest in (further) forging its relatively new membership within the WTO... reinforcing its compliance. In that regard the U.S. has leveraged the WTO dispute mechanism to bring complaints against China forward... in some of those complaints, to secure significant changes from China. For all your unsubstantiated charges against China, has the U.S. brought actual complaint forward to the WTO - if not, why not?
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 11:58:32 am
The US prohibits bringing knockoffs into the country. Canada doesn't for personal use, you just aren't supposed to resell them.

I think knockoffs are more of a problem for the unwary consumer than they are for manufacturers.

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 12:05:14 pm
your posts on this subject, per your norm, lack any cite/substantiation... and broader knowledge. China has a vested interest in (further) forging its relatively new membership within the WTO... reinforcing its compliance. In that regard the U.S. has leveraged the WTO dispute mechanism to bring complaints against China forward... in some of those complaints, to secure significant changes from China. For all your unsubstantiated charges against China, has the U.S. brought actual complaint forward to the WTO - if not, why not?

TPP was supposed to provide a large counterweight to China, increasing leverage by dealing with China as a huge trading block. Trump's seems to think the US is stronger acting alone.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on April 05, 2018, 12:52:47 pm
Boeing now has plants in China, but more to the point China needs new aircraft, lots of them, and there's no other supplier who can pick up the slack if they don't buy from Boeing. There's airbus, but that would mean years of waiting on top of the time they're already waiting.

What about Bombardier? They may not have the larger international planes, but China must have a large demand for regional jets.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 05, 2018, 04:07:22 pm
The US prohibits bringing knockoffs into the country. Canada doesn't for personal use, you just aren't supposed to resell them.

I think knockoffs are more of a problem for the unwary consumer than they are for manufacturers.

It's not like they identify themselves as knockoffs. Oh, you're banning the GPS devices from the Ping-Won company? No problem. Suddenly their new label says from the Quin Kwan company. Oh, you're banning them. Well now they're made in Vietnam by the Kim-Po company.

And it's not like Chinese companies can't make ready use of stolen technology in their products and simply sell them elsewhere.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: SirJohn on April 05, 2018, 04:08:26 pm
What about Bombardier? They may not have the larger international planes, but China must have a large demand for regional jets.

China wants aircraft that carry large numbers of people. Have you seen what their highways look like? Bombardier's smaller regional jets carry far fewer passengers. Besides, China has really been laying down the track for its expanding high speed rail service. That tends to lessen the need for regional aircraft.

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Omni on April 05, 2018, 04:14:54 pm
China wants aircraft that carry large numbers of people. Have you seen what their highways look like? Bombardier's smaller regional jets carry far fewer passengers. Besides, China has really been laying down the track for its expanding high speed rail service. That tends to lessen the need for regional aircraft.

Actually China's projected growth of their commercial aircraft fleet calls for three quarters of it to be single aisle airplanes due to the growth of domestic travel. Boeing and Airbus are hot for China market.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 04:15:45 pm
Not completely, Chinese airlines are looking at replacing B737-300's and looking at the 737 Max. Boeing sees the C Series as a direct threat to the max and why they tried to get big tariffs put on them.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2018, 04:20:00 pm
With Bombardier now in bed with Airbus on the C, Boeing is probably getting a bit nervous.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Omni on April 05, 2018, 04:27:13 pm
With Bombardier now in bed with Airbus on the C, Boeing is probably getting a bit nervous.

Indeed. They produce what China is in the market for and I bet they are in a mood to thumb their nose at Trump just now.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: kimmy on April 06, 2018, 12:05:56 am
Soooooo apparently the Chinese tariffs on soy and cotton will badly hurt the very Deep South deadbeat farmers who put Trump in the White House in the first place.


Seems kinda fitting.

 -k
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Omni on April 06, 2018, 12:52:43 am
Maybe if one of them that good ole boys ever figure that out they will throw a clip in that that ar 15 and go take care of the problem.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 06, 2018, 06:55:39 am
Soooooo apparently the Chinese tariffs on soy and cotton will badly hurt the very Deep South deadbeat farmers who put Trump in the White House in the first place.


Seems kinda fitting.

 -k

I doubt that's an accident.  The US has a distinct disadvantage in that the entire world knows them more than they care to know about others.

Trump says "China is hurting us" and they come up with a blunt attack approach, using the dumb Trump voters to support it.  The US's internal politics is open, and very well publicized, so China can be surgical with its response.

Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: kimmy on April 06, 2018, 08:40:30 am
I mean... it could also be that China buys a lot of US soy and cotton.

 -k
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2018, 12:35:22 pm
Both probably. The EU was going to impose tariffs on industries that were based in McConnell's and Ryan's states. No doubt the Chinese would like to target areas of Trump support.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on April 06, 2018, 01:26:05 pm
Soooooo apparently the Chinese tariffs on soy and cotton will badly hurt the very Deep South deadbeat farmers who put Trump in the White House in the first place.

Americans like to give huge subsidies to soy, corn, wheat, and I assume cotton as well. Dairy farms are also heavily subsidized. They squeal like pigs about our softwood lumber, perhaps tariffs are the only way to level the playing field.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Rue on April 07, 2018, 10:33:08 am
For anyone pissing on the US they are not doing anything different than any other country in the world which is trying to look after their own best economic interests. Canada and everyone else does it. This high almighty approach to the US as if its the only hooker walking the street is a joke.

Next, China is a cancer. It has used its centralized government structure to create a large predatory monopoly using cheap labour and artificial lowering of its currency, to assure gross trade imbalances with every nation it trades with.

China has created its entire financial base on cheap, inferior, dangerous goods. It has undercut free trade by fixing prices and swamping markets with crap. Ultimately we the consumer created China. We use short sighted purchasing principles- we choose to buy crap because its cheaper and we no longer care about quality or use common sense thinking if we buy cheap Chinese crap it breaks, and we end up buying even more cheap crap to replace it rather than paying up front once for a product that lasts. We have all been hooked into that.

Walmart has made a fortune engaging in predatory marketing on behalf of China to flood its markets with crap perishable foods from China on its shelves courtesy of human feces irrigation systems.

Please don't pose China as a victim its a  victimizer-a vast, monopoly with no human rights, no health and safety regulations or consumer standards. Its a cancer on the world in terms of what it contributes. It sucks energy. Its sole offering to the world since 1949 has been to create **** inferior productsand excellent hackers who break in and steal industrial secrets from the idiot West.

Trump is a weasel as an individual. Playing the I hate Trump card is easy because it ignores what China is and what it has done to the free market supply and demand system.

Trump did not create China, human stupidity, laziness and greed did and it won't be stopped by Trump.

As for Trudeau, I find it rich some of you **** on Trump and stay silent on the Prancing Prince, Mr. Dress Up, St. Justine of Trudeau and his comments applauding China. Atta boy Fidel Jr.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 07, 2018, 10:55:24 am
I disagree that Trump and those like him didn't help make China. Most of his and his families product lines are produced in places like China and Bangladesh.

Do you think Trump will get around to imposing tariffs on goods he and his family have manufactured in China.

That said, I agree with you when it comes to what China is and that the US and others have valid complaints when it comes to China's trade practices.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: waldo on April 07, 2018, 10:59:28 am
Next, China is a cancer. It has used its centralized government structure to create a large predatory monopoly using cheap labour and artificial lowering of its currency, to assure gross trade imbalances with every nation it trades with.

(https://i.imgur.com/1byfL1O.png)

notwithstanding the ever present most simpletonTrumpster view on trade deficits... a view that doesn't consider the bigger picture in terms of capital accounts, financial (current) accounts, capital flows, exchange rates, etc..

the U.S. is, quite obviously, an investor nation - it invests more than it saves and, accordingly, imports foreign capital and correspondingly runs a capital account surplus. That foreign imported capital allows U.S. citizens to consume more goods than they produce... hence... a resulting trade deficit. If you properly consider balance of payments, when you isolate solely on just the current account side of that balance (let alone just one facet of current accounts (goods trading)) you completely ignore the other side of that balance equation - you ignore capital accounts... the buying and selling of investment assets such as real estate, stocks, bonds, and government securities. And, of course, within that current-to-capital accounts relationship, you ignore exchange rates.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: waldo on April 07, 2018, 11:01:42 am
Do you think Trump will get around to imposing tariffs on goods he and his family have manufactured in China.

Ivanka Trump’s clothing company will be spared from tariffs, thanks to her dad --- https://thinkprogress.org/ivanka-trump-clothing-tariffs-437840f07b83/
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2018, 11:27:41 am
Ivanka Trump’s clothing company will be spared from tariffs, thanks to her dad --- https://thinkprogress.org/ivanka-trump-clothing-tariffs-437840f07b83/

Just the latest of the multitude of ethical conflicts between Trump businesses and White House influence.

They claim that clothing was exempted because of "a complex algorithm intended to minimize the impact of tariffs on American consumers", which seems like a plausible explanation.  Regular Joe and Jane buy lots of made-in-China things, including clothes, and a big tariff on that stuff would directly affect the average consumer.   But there is clearly a conflict of interest.

During the 1990s conservatives considered it a scandal that the Clintons may have used official influence to benefit the Whitewater development they had invested in.  During the campaign, conservatives considered it a scandal that the Clintons may have used official influence to benefit the Clinton Foundation.

But now conservatives no longer consider it a scandal that the White House uses influence to benefit private Trump business interests. "don't care about that, gotta get that wall built!"


 -k
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 08, 2018, 11:31:36 am
Partisan media make it a lot easier to get away with corruption.  That's what you see in a lot of 3rd world nations too.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Rue on April 10, 2018, 11:47:10 am
I disagree that Trump and those like him didn't help make China. Most of his and his families product lines are produced in places like China and Bangladesh.

Do you think Trump will get around to imposing tariffs on goods he and his family have manufactured in China.

That said, I agree with you when it comes to what China is and that the US and others have valid complaints when it comes to China's trade practices.

Good pt. on Trump's connection to China. He had no problem using it to his personal financial advantage. That said the trade imbalances China creates using its very heavy tarrifs on foreign goods coming into it has to stop. It does not engage in fair trade and never has. In fact one of the reasons I am against the carbon tax system although I am very concerned about the environment is because I believe it will give China huge advantage in trade and industry over  any country honestly trying to reduce air pollution.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Rue on April 12, 2018, 07:52:48 am
Its interesting how each time there is some issue with Trump and his staff or who he sleeps with and who is resigning, he lets off some tough blast about someone to distract. Were his comments about China a distraction from Stormy Daniels. How about Syria? Coincidence how these news stories cycle and he's always involved in an international crisis at the same time as he is a domestic scandal type one?

I discount conspiracy theories and maybe I am reading too much in to it but the pattern of Trump engaging in world conflicts with his military and threatening to go boom to someone always happens at opportune times for him to distract from his issues at home. How the hell is it the FBI is going after his legal counsel's files at this point supposedly in regards to paying off Stormy Daniels when there mandate was for Russian collusion not that. Clearly this guy is a target but at this point he's like JFK in the sense he has so many people targeting him how the hell do we know just who it is? Democrats? Anrgy Republicans? Russia? China? The FBI? Loyalists to Obama? A mix of all the above? What next. I predict a heart attack and him dying in his sleep at this point. There's no need for messy motorcades. Of course it won't be Melania dropping the pill. I think it will be Pence or as I call him Mr. Clean the Glad Garbage Bag man.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on April 12, 2018, 09:46:22 am
I think the FBI is acting on evidence found during the collusion investigation. If Mueller finds evidence of other possible criminal activity during his investigation, he is pretty well bound to turn it over to other law enforcement for investigation, even if it isn't part of his mandate.

That said, it was Trump who declared war on the FBI so I doubt they have any love for him.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 03:46:44 pm
Much of this is just negotiation tactics and posturing.  I do think Trump wants to get a better trade deal with China and all other countries.  Who knows how it will end up.  In theory, I support tough and relentless businessmen negotiating big trade deals rather than politicians.  Trump has a tendency to needlessly be a d!ck about how he says and does things, so he's going to end up burning bridges that don't need to be burned.

Politicians have a tendency to not want to offend though, which means they won't go to the lengths Trump has with NAFTA and China in tough negotiating.  Will be interesting to see how Trump's deals end up when the dust settles.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 15, 2018, 03:51:52 pm
I disagree that Trump and those like him didn't help make China. Most of his and his families product lines are produced in places like China and Bangladesh.

Do you think Trump will get around to imposing tariffs on goods he and his family have manufactured in China.

Trump is a rich old man that won't ever be able to consume all the wealth he has.  You can only have so many cars and houses.  Would it matter tp him if he were worth 5 billion rather than 6 billion?  Or would he rather have the ego boost of helping his country have better trade terms with China, a country filled with businessmen he's said he despises because of how they do business with him.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 01, 2018, 06:12:02 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-tariffs-canned-goods-1.4768172

Pop to go up one cent.

Thread should be 'global trade war'...
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2018, 12:05:57 pm
Much of this is just negotiation tactics and posturing.  I do think Trump wants to get a better trade deal with China and all other countries.  Who knows how it will end up.  In theory, I support tough and relentless businessmen negotiating big trade deals rather than politicians.  Trump has a tendency to needlessly be a d!ck about how he says and does things, so he's going to end up burning bridges that don't need to be burned.

Politicians have a tendency to not want to offend though, which means they won't go to the lengths Trump has with NAFTA and China in tough negotiating.  Will be interesting to see how Trump's deals end up when the dust settles.

You think Trump is not a politician? He is a politician of the worst kind. Everything about him is his ego and theatre for his base. He is a consummate liar. His mouth puts him in a position where everything has to be a win, even if it is a turd. This allows him to be played by people like Kim, Xi and Putin. It's a good thing for him that Iran told him to get stuffed because if they had a meeting, he would probably get played by them as well.

I agree with the US position on China and intellectual property but that isn't an issue with it's other trading partners. Canada and the EU respect US patents, yet he fosters this myth that we are ripping off US drug companies with generics. He also goes on about dairy tariffs ignoring the fact that in 2017 we imported four times as much dairy from the US than we exported to the US.

Look at his meeting with Junker. According to Trump and his faithful, the EU caved and it was a big win for Trump. They agreed to talk about removing tariffs but the EU can only negotiate agreements, they have to be ratified by the member countries and Macron said right away that France would continue to protect its agriculture and he was just the first. Europe was already starting to buy soy from the US because Chinese demand has driven the price of South American soy so high that US soy is now cheap. They were also looking at LNG imports to offset Russian dependence. Those were business decisions, not political decisions. So what exactly did Junker cave on?

European and Asian auto manufacturers would love to have zero tariffs on autos because it would mean the US getting rid of its 25% tariff on imported light trucks. Korean auto unions went ballistic when SK signed an agreement that exempted if from steel tariffs in exchange for a 25 year extension to the US light truck tariff, because they know how important that market is. Getting rid of that tariff would be a kick in the nuts to the US domestic industry because it has basically abandoned cars in favour of light trucks and SUV's. They would now have big time competition on their most lucrative products so it ain't going to happen no matter how much BS Trump spouts.

Meanwhile, Trump drives up metal costs which makes US industry less competitive. The guy is a genius I tell ya.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on August 01, 2018, 03:46:29 pm
The guy is a genius I tell ya.

Very stable
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: wilber on August 06, 2018, 01:27:13 pm
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/billions-at-risk-for-u-s-lng-exports-as-china-proposes-25-tariffs-1.1118808

Canada will miss the boat again because it takes 20 years to get anything done in this country, if it gets done at all.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 07, 2018, 08:41:35 am
Great video on trade here:

https://tinyurl.com/economics-of-trade 

I'm starting to understand the last piece of the trade puzzle, ie. the current account and financial account. (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-current-accounts-and-financial-accounts#)
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 13, 2018, 08:42:03 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=binCcxxqrvg

Balance of Payment theory.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2018, 04:58:50 pm
Stephen Harper has been doing interviews for his book.  He sat down for an hour with fellow conservative Ben Shapiro to talk about recent populism in the West, including trade deals, especially with China. I was prepared to roll my eyes, but I came out agreeing with most of what Harper was saying, he has a keen sense of what's happening in the world it seems, for the most part.  Harper also comes off as more centrist than I remember.  I could never imagine Trudeau talking in such details about economics, so Harper (who I wasn't a fan of & was glad lost last election) comes off as much more knowledgeable.

This part talks specifically about the US & Canada's trade gap with China, and how he thinks we're getting ripped off.  I recommend the entire interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVNw03gyLmk&feature=youtu.be&t=971
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on November 20, 2018, 05:13:10 pm
The problem is that Harper signed the Canada-China Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement. He talks about all the trade deals he signed, and that was one and it has many negatives associated with it.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on November 20, 2018, 05:25:59 pm
I also disagree with his statement at 30:50 where he claims that Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are trying to fix what they see ailing democratic capitalist societies. Farage quit as soon as Brexit referendum was held, he just wanted to destroy everything and not participate in the mess he created. Anyone who thinks Trump is trying to fix things is a moron. They are both just feeding off of populist dissatisfaction, and contribution nothing to a solution.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2018, 05:36:05 pm
I also disagree with his statement at 30:50 where he claims that Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are trying to fix what they see ailing democratic capitalist societies. Farage quit as soon as Brexit referendum was held, he just wanted to destroy everything and not participate in the mess he created. Anyone who thinks Trump is trying to fix things is a moron. They are both just feeding off of populist dissatisfaction, and contribution nothing to a solution.

I don't know a lot about the complexities of UK politics, maybe bcsapper can also chime in, but I do believe Trump is genuinely trying to fix things, I just don't think he knows how to do it competently and without vast arrogance.  Many of the main things Trump said he'd do during his MAGA campaign he's done or at least has tried to do.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: ?Impact on November 20, 2018, 05:42:58 pm
At 45:00 Harper tries to rewrite history when he says not-Canada. Does he not remember the billions he gave to GM and Chrysler, or the over hundred billion he gave to the banks.

ok, a couple of minutes later he remembers those billions he gave GM & Chrysler.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: guest7 on November 20, 2018, 06:13:46 pm
I don't know a lot about the complexities of UK politics, maybe bcsapper can also chime in, but I do believe Trump is genuinely trying to fix things, I just don't think he knows how to do it competently and without vast arrogance.  Many of the main things Trump said he'd do during his MAGA campaign he's done or at least has tried to do.

I was never a fan of Nigel Farage, and wasn't overly surprised when he slunk out of view as Brexit exploded into an unmanageable mess.

I think most politicians genuinely think they know best.  It doesn't matter if they are on the left or the right, they usually do not.  The worst ones are those who insist on their way anyway.  I'm generally just a headline and first paragraph reader when it comes to US politics, but I think Trump is going to find out fairly soon that his policies are going to MAGA for a brief period, then they are going to MAC for a much longer period.  With any luck the next election will put someone in place who can fix it properly.  Maybe they will be a real populist.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2018, 07:25:26 pm
I also disagree with his statement at 30:50 where he claims that Donald Trump and Nigel Farage are trying to fix what they see ailing democratic capitalist societies. Farage quit as soon as Brexit referendum was held, he just wanted to destroy everything and not participate in the mess he created.

For what it's worth, just wiki'd Lafarge, in the 2015 election he didn't win his seat so he resigned as leader as he had promised, but the party didn't accept it so he stayed on for another year, then resigned again after brexit vote.  Not sure what use he could have been organizing the Brexit by not only not being part of the government but not having a seat/vote in Parliament.  I guess he can mouth off in his private life just as easy.
Title: Re: China USA Trade War
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 20, 2023, 09:58:03 am
Nixon on dealing with China...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjnkOsDAAfo