Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 11:53:55 am

Title: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 11:53:55 am
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/05/president-trump-said-canada-mistreats-u-s-farmers-this-is-what-he-meant/?utm_term=.a8ccd9bee0b9

Quote
At issue, experts say, is an almost 50-year-old program that guarantees a stable, minimum income to Canadian farmers — and can disadvantage their competition. While supply management applies to poultry, eggs and dairy in Canada, the dairy system has proved most controversial, in part because of the degree to which it is restricted.

Under the system, the Canadian government limits how much milk Canadian farmers can produce, requiring them to purchase a production “quota.” Simultaneously, the government limits how much foreign milk and dairy products come into the country, slapping excess imports with tariffs of up to 313 percent.

This is straight up Communism.

How can we criticize Trump and Co regarding Steel Tarrifs when our methods of regulating our food industry is much MUCH worse.

It seems we gained a temporary reprieve from Steel and Aluminum Tarrifs but only to negotiate this issue. Can a NAFTA deal be signed with Supply management on the table?

The price we pay for Eggs, Dairy and Poultry in this country is pretty offensive. I'm all for more competition in the industry.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2018, 12:03:42 pm
This is straight up Communism.
No it isn't. There's no such thing as partial Communism. Communism is a totality, erasing social class.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 12:04:55 pm
No it isn't. There's no such thing as partial Communism. Communism is a totality, erasing social class.

I would think China dabbles in partial Communism. There are certainly some capitalistic elements to it.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2018, 12:13:09 pm
They do, but China is not actually a Communist society in the sense that Marx advocated.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2018, 12:14:51 pm
As it pertains to farmers and production "limitations." This isn't even remotely communist. In a communist society, people would produce what they need and get the value out of that. The government wouldn't dictate how much milk is produced because how much milk is produced would be exactly as much as people needed to produce for themselves.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: BC_cheque on March 09, 2018, 12:15:38 pm
The price we pay for Eggs, Dairy and Poultry in this country is pretty offensive. I'm all for more competition in the industry.

The prices in this country are equally offensive for TV's, cars, housing, clothes and anything else you can purchase within the free-market so the issue obviously more intricate than just supply-management.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 12:23:58 pm
The prices in this country are equally offensive for TV's, cars, housing, clothes and anything else you can purchase within the free-market so the issue obviously more intricate than just supply-management.

That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 12:24:30 pm
As it pertains to farmers and production "limitations." This isn't even remotely communist. In a communist society, people would produce what they need and get the value out of that. The government wouldn't dictate how much milk is produced because how much milk is produced would be exactly as much as people needed to produce for themselves.

Fine. Super Socialist, does that make you feel better?
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: BC_cheque on March 09, 2018, 12:30:13 pm
That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.

That's not true, Europe has huge purchasing power and they're overcharged as we are in Canada.  Corporations charge what they can get away with.

So what you're essentially saying is that you're offended when the government gouges us, but not so much when the big corporations do.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2018, 12:39:21 pm
Fine. Super Socialist, does that make you feel better?
Absolutely it does because that's what it is.

My question to you is this then....do you think any industry should be socialized? If you accept some socialized industry, which ones and under what circumstances?

We'll certainly differ on this point. I've made it known that I believe necessities should all be socialized: health, education, food production AND distribution, telecommunications, housing/shelter, clothing, and banking. Some would characterize that as radical. I think, however, that our productive efficiencies have increased so much that there is going to come a time very soon where these things will need to be shared costs of society. There will be far more labour power than jobs for them to fill. Our society is wealthy enough that our productive capacities ought to be put to use for providing the necessities for subsistence (which will differ from society to society and across time). As a brief example, internet communication is subsistence today. It's the mode of communication for business and industry. It wasn't 50 years ago. It's also the primary mode for the transmission and storage of knowledge. In this way, it's a part of the education system as well as the economy. It's fundamental to living the minimally acceptable life in our society today.

So that's my opinion. How about you? Is it ever appropriate to social industries? Which ones? When and why?
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 12:47:31 pm
That's not true, Europe has huge purchasing power and they're overcharged as we are in Canada.  Corporations charge what they can get away with.

So what you're essentially saying is that you're offended when the government gouges us, but not so much when the big corporations do.

Governments shouldn't be gouging us. If a corporation does it, there should be competition to see that we have options.

For much of the food we eat, there is competition, but not for Dairy and Eggs. There was news recently that companies got together and colluded for the price of bread. How is that not OK but having a minimum price of Dairy is.

No matter where you go, there's a minimum price you have to pay. That's how the liqour stores run (also due to government meddling), and I don't support that either.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 12:52:51 pm
Absolutely it does because that's what it is.

My question to you is this then....do you think any industry should be socialized? If you accept some socialized industry, which ones and under what circumstances?

We'll certainly differ on this point. I've made it known that I believe necessities should all be socialized: health, education, food production AND distribution, telecommunications, housing/shelter, clothing, and banking. Some would characterize that as radical. I think, however, that our productive efficiencies have increased so much that there is going to come a time very soon where these things will need to be shared costs of society. There will be far more labour power than jobs for them to fill. Our society is wealthy enough that our productive capacities ought to be put to use for providing the necessities for subsistence (which will differ from society to society and across time). As a brief example, internet communication is subsistence today. It's the mode of communication for business and industry. It wasn't 50 years ago. It's also the primary mode for the transmission and storage of knowledge. In this way, it's a part of the education system as well as the economy. It's fundamental to living the minimally acceptable life in our society today.

So that's my opinion. How about you? Is it ever appropriate to social industries? Which ones? When and why?

That's a pipe dream. How do you socialize clothing? everyone buys from the same government approved store? But if those are you beliefs, then good on you.

For food we require trade. There are simply foods we can't produce in this country. But then we throw up huge tariffs for a select few industries? I don't agree with it, but I understand why it's there. We want some autonomy on our farming industries. But then we can't be angry when another country tries to protect other industries in their countries with tariffs (See Trump on Steel)
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2018, 01:02:51 pm
You didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2018, 02:15:48 pm
That's because Canada doesn't have the buying power as US consumers. So they can get away with it. But in this instance the government is dictated the minimum price you can charge for the product.

I dispute this. Given free trade, why should something that sells at Home Depot in Toronto cost more than something that sells at the Home Depot in Buffalo? Why can I drive an hour south of Ottawa, cross the border, and buy something from the stores in Ogdensburg, - which is a burg - and it's cheaper than in Ottawa?

Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2018, 02:17:27 pm
As far as supply management goes, it benefits producers at the expense of consumers. There may be arguments to support this if the industry is essential but I don't see how that applies to dairy products.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Boges on March 09, 2018, 04:29:16 pm
I dispute this. Given free trade, why should something that sells at Home Depot in Toronto cost more than something that sells at the Home Depot in Buffalo? Why can I drive an hour south of Ottawa, cross the border, and buy something from the stores in Ogdensburg, - which is a burg - and it's cheaper than in Ottawa?

When the dollar was at par, people would cross the border and prices in Canada did drop.

Taxation, energy and wages have something to do with it too.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2018, 06:41:16 pm
A big problem with supply management is the cost of quota which trades on the open market and can seriously add to a farmers cost of production. This is the kind of thing which needs to be addressed. If you get rid of supply management, government will have to reimburse farmers for what they have invested in quota because it was government that forced them to buy it in order to produce.

Getting a consistent price for a product makes for a stable industry, it doesn't breed inefficiency. The US dairy industry is in crisis because of over supply and farm suicide rates have become a real concern. Knuckling under to the US will just do the same thing to our industry and it won't fix theirs.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/milk-op-mailing-highlights-suicide-risk-dairy-farmers-53486265
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2018, 06:42:33 pm
When the dollar was at par, people would cross the border and prices in Canada did drop.

Taxation, energy and wages have something to do with it too.

Our taxes and wages are not higher, or not much higher than New York. Our energy costs might be higher, due to government incompetence, but that's about it. And that's a relatively recent phenomenon.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 27, 2018, 04:36:08 am
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/26/trump-rips-canada-nafta-freeland-in-marathon-press-conference_a_23542969/

Quote
OTTAWA — U.S. President Donald Trump says he nixed a meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the United Nations because he's upset with the way NAFTA negotiations are going.

"Yeah, I did,'' Trump answered, when asked if he rejected a sit-down with Trudeau during a wide-ranging 80-minute press conference, in which he expressed his unhappiness with Canada and threatened to impose tariffs on cars crossing the border if a deal isn't reached soon.

"His tariffs are too high, and he doesn't seem to want to move, and I've told him 'forget about it,'" he told reporters about a face-to-face meeting.

"We're very unhappy with the negotiations and the negotiation style of Canada — we don't like their representative very much," he added, in an apparent reference to Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland. Freeland has been in and out of Washington, D.C, leading Canada's negotiations on NAFTA with the U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer.

"Frankly, we're thinking about just taxing cars coming in from Canada,'' he said. "That's the motherlode, that's the big one.''

So... it feels like Canada is calling his bluff on this.  He wanted to be able to say he would have a deal in hand in time for the election but it's not going to happen.   Am I wrong ?
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2018, 05:55:12 am
A big problem with supply management is the cost of quota which trades on the open market and can seriously add to a farmers cost of production.
Not just that. There is no "free market" in dairy because every country in the world massively subsidizes their producers - the US is no exception. I have really have a problem throwing dairy farmers under the bus as long as the US insists on dumping subsidized supply on Canada. If the US was seriously interested in eliminating subsidizes to its farmers then we could talk about moving to a free market. Since that is not going to happen we can only talk about a managed market which means tweaks rather than abolition.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 30, 2018, 08:38:01 am
https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/star-columnists/2018/09/27/its-time-to-end-the-charade-and-walk-away-from-nafta.html

Toronto Star says we should walk away.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 30, 2018, 09:04:46 pm
...aaaand apparently there is a deal.

I'm guessing that Canada gave in to something around dairy but only enough for Trump to say he won. 
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: wilber on September 30, 2018, 09:30:26 pm
Why should we? Notice the sources.

https://www.wisconsinagriculturist.com/dairy/does-canada-really-charge-270-tariff-milk

http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-01-27/understanding-the-dairy-crisis/8184510

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/07/26/167478/trumps-trade-war-weighs-on-nz-dairy

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/dairy-farmers-demand-eu-action-on-milk-prices/
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 30, 2018, 09:43:50 pm
https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/star-columnists/2018/09/27/its-time-to-end-the-charade-and-walk-away-from-nafta.html

Toronto Star says we should walk away.

WTF does a newspaper journalist know about the complexities of international trade deals & the impacts it will have on our economies?  He probably doesn't even know half of whats on and off the table.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 26, 2019, 12:05:12 pm
https://www.ft.com/content/f9c20bde-1d23-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4

Okaaaay... Fed pumping $500B into the economy and hardly any coverage ?

Is the collapse here finally ?
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: wilber on December 26, 2019, 12:56:55 pm
https://www.ft.com/content/f9c20bde-1d23-11ea-97df-cc63de1d73f4

Okaaaay... Fed pumping $500B into the economy and hardly any coverage ?

Is the collapse here finally ?

The US government is already dumping more than a trillion of borrowed money into the economy every year.  A one time $500B seems like chump change.
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 26, 2019, 02:19:13 pm
1. The US government is already dumping more than a trillion of borrowed money into the economy every year. 
2. A one time $500B seems like chump change.

1. Yes, very true.
2. 50% of a huge amount is not chump change.
3. Can we now say that this economic boom is created on 100% borrowed money ?
Title: Re: Should we give up Supply Management?
Post by: wilber on January 02, 2020, 05:57:00 pm
1. Yes, very true.
2. 50% of a huge amount is not chump change.
3. Can we now say that this economic boom is created on 100% borrowed money ?

2. It seems to be chump change if you are Trump, he more than doubles it every year.
3. I think so.