Canadian Politics Today
Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: Omni on February 14, 2018, 04:24:41 pm
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Parkland Florida is the latest, but it's just the 18th school shooting in the US this year, and it's only February! You can't carry a gun into the congress, but they will promote laws that allow "conceal and carry". When will they ever learn?
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The media is ridiculous, shoving mics in kids’ faces after such a traumatic event.
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https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659
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Holy jeezus, I had to go out for a while and when I left there were reportedly 1 dead and 14 taken to hospital. Now I tune in and find it's 17 dead and a dozen wounded. What a sad scene and what a scary read of this article with citizens claiming there is nothing we can do about it. I heard/saw some Iphone video from the scene and that was definitely a semi automatic rifle going off. Maybe one thing to do about it is to kick the ass of congress to quit sucking on the IRA tit and enact some laws to bring the 2nd BS under control and keep such weapons off the streets.
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If they can't get gun control after an incident like Sandy Hook with a President like Obama, I doubt they can ever get it.
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If they can't get gun control after an incident like Sandy Hook with a President like Obama, I doubt they can ever get it.
Obama tried, the congress stopped him. NRA funding has a lot of sway.
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I hope this is fake....
(https://i.imgur.com/IVBR6Wb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
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Obama tried, the congress stopped him. NRA funding has a lot of sway.
That's what I mean.
Not that it would make a lot of difference, given there are >300 million guns dotted around the US already.
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That's what I mean.
Not that it would make a lot of difference, given there are >300 million guns dotted around the US already.
That's the "head in the sand type" of approach that will simply keep the situation from changing.
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That's the "head in the sand type" of approach that will simply keep the situation from changing.
I thought it was the NRA?
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I thought it was the NRA?
You do understand what NRA means eh?
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You do understand what NRA means eh?
Yes I do...
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I doubt they can ever get it.
Never is a long time.
Here are the things that will make an assault gun ban, and maybe a full gun ban happen... *eventually*:
1. Gun owners moving to an older and dying demographic.
2. Campaign finance reform removing financial incentives for congress to support the NRA.
3. Television advertising (large cost for congress) giving way to personalized social media campaigns (cheaper), reducing the needs for NRA money
4. Those factors eventually will cause unending support for ridiculously loose gun laws to end.
When will it happen ? Somewhere from 10 to 60 years from now. I will guess 20.
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Here are some political 'nevers' I have read, while reading political history:
"Alberta will always vote Liberal, federally"
"Texas will always be Democrat"
Those things were written less than a hundred years ago, so they're truths that your parents or grandparents lived under.
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I don't think judgement from up North changes things and people from states that do have gun control won't change anything.
Americans value the 2nd amendment more than public safety. Dozens of innocent people being killed every few months is just collateral damage to this idea of freedom to bare arms.
It doesn't matter if polls say that a majority value gun control. The politically motivated value the 2nd amendment and only when Gun Control advocates become as politically motived as the NRA, will things change.
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Here are some political 'nevers' I have read, while reading political history:
"Alberta will always vote Liberal, federally"
"Texas will always be Democrat"
Those things were written less than a hundred years ago, so they're truths that your parents or grandparents lived under.
Yeah, I bet they had their doubts, too.
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The usual hypocritical platitudes from the usual people to the victim’s families then rinse, repeat. Meh.
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And Trump is leading the way be remaining mute on gun control and wishing to put the blame on mental illness during his speech in the aftermath of school shooting number 18 so far this year. I think I know who is suffering from mental illness.
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The NRA spent 55 million on the last election, virtually all to support Trump and Republican candidates. After Las Vegas even a lot of Republicans were making noises about doing away with 'bump stocks' but then the NRA said no and they all shut up. Most Americans favour gun control, but the only way to get it is to have a Democrat in the White House and Democratic majorities in both houses of congress.
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The failure of the mental health system is a common thread through these killings. The lone apparent except is Las Vegas, but generally poor mental heath care and/or minding our neighbors seem to be a common thread.
James Holmes, the Colorado theater killer, is perhaps the best example. He tried to contact his psychiatrist while his tenure in a graduate program was falling apart. Other examples are less clear-cut since we know less about their psychological care and treatment. Jared Lochner, who killed a bunch of people, had been expelled from Pima Community College. Adam Lanza's schooling in an affluent Newtown, Connecticut should have exposed him to mental health professionals.
In an incident strikingly similar to the Texas massacre, Esteban Santiago killed six people at Fort Lauderdale International Airport in January 2017. His downward spiral is detailed here, Fort Lauderdale shooter Esteban Santiago saw life falling apart. (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/article126025249.html) The article details how "a tape of a January 2016 domestic violence court hearing after his arrest for fighting with his girlfriend, a prosecutor lays out the case, explaining he broke down the bathroom door at Peterson’s home, then hit her in the head."
Kelley, the murderer in Texas, had similar domestic violence problems. They both had troubled military service.
De-institutionalization was a well-intentioned program. It was supposed to convert inhumane and, for the patient ineffective confinement into treatment in the community. This April 2, 1972 article, which I remembered reading, The Patients Can Walk Out At Any Time at Bronx State Mental Hospital (link) (http://www.nytimes.com/1972/04/02/archives/the-patients-can-walk-out-at-any-time-at-bronx-state-mental.html) made the case for de-institutionalization. Unfortunately few were as motivated as Israel Zwerling, and most looked at the process as a way of saving money.
The mental health system is not doing a good job of keeping these people under control. While the status quo ante before mass de-institutionalization was inhumane to the patients, it did keep the country safe from the lunatics. Perhaps the balance needs to be tipped more in favor of the public than the lunatics.
We can work at improving the humanity, and where appropriate the therapeutic nature of these centers. But we were safer with these people locked up than out loose.
But it doesn't stop at the mental health system; to some extent it involves a far wider community. People need to be more involved with their neighbors.
In recent years there have been plenty of mass shootings. In addition to those discussed about, there is Elliot Rodger (Santa Barbara) and Stephen Paddock (Las Vegas). All of these people were obviously troubled. All of these people, except maybe Adam Lanza, were in regular contact with other students, teachers and administrators at their respective schools. Dylan Roof was in regular contact with friends, roommates and his parents. The societal problem is that it is easier to ignore people who are not sociable and not pleasant to be with than to engage them.
With this horrific church massacre, we are treated to lectures about gun control and about racism. People forget that both in this episode and Sandy Hook parents without any apparent mental health pathologies were the ones that obtained the weapons, not the mentally ill adult-aged children. Guns are everywhere so efforts to control legally purchased guns are doomed to futility. The most those laws will do is prevent people who would hurt no one from owning a gun.
Racism is similarly rife in society. But no one things that Dylan Roof was active in any anti-black political movement.
I suppose that liberals don't want to deal with mental health issues because that would mean getting involved with and spending real time with unpleasant people who don't make good social companions. That takes real time and effort. Learning more about those people and having people who are conscious of their ups and downs might prevent some, though certainly not all tragedies.
I am not saying it is the role of untrained people to be psychologists. Far from it. But when people are left friendless for long periods, and no one reaches out to them a tragedy will sometimes occur. It is our job, as a society, to know our neighbors, students and colleagues.
I feel that forming real communities will solve some of these problems. Trying to remove the implements of crime from people who are far beyond obeying any law of any kind is futile and useless.
It is far easier and more satisfying to inveigh against guns and racism. It feels good and typical for liberals that's what matters as was pointed out here.
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Guns are everywhere so efforts to control legally purchased guns are doomed to futility. The most those laws will do is prevent people who would hurt no one from owning a gun.
This is nonsense. Every other western nation on the planet manages to control guns. Which in turn leads to less death by guns.
America is not a special case... if there was reasonable gun control, these incidents would be reduced.
To say otherwise is completely asinine.
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This is nonsense. Every other western nation on the planet manages to control guns. Which in turn leads to less death by guns.
America is not a special case... if there was reasonable gun control, these incidents would be reduced.
To say otherwise is completely asinine.
Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
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Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
And killing is a much more efficient activity with them.
As was said, America is not special, in this or any other case.
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Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
Trump seems like someone willing to "help". But then of course how many millions did the NRA spend on his campaign.
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Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
Not according to Stanley's defense lawyer
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Not according to Stanley's defense lawyer
Good point, some guns can kill people all by themselves.
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It's interesting that many Americans believe other countries admire the second amendment, rather than regarding it as a curse.
Also, https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/16/586361956/as-an-american-tragedy-unfolds-russian-agents-sow-discord-online
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Guns are ineffective without help from someone.
So are hydrogen bombs. Let's all get us one. Or six.
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From the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/feb/15/ben-jennings-florida-school-shooting-cartoon
Some cartoons just nail an issue. This is one.
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The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people. But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.
Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.
And I am a gun owner, btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.
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The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people. But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.
Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.
And I am a gun owner, btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.
I have a gun too, and I like it, but I am all in favour of everyone who wants one to have to go through at least what I had to go through in order to get one.
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The continuing statements by Republicans that guns are not the problem ignores the reality that at the very, very least, they heavily aggravate the problem. That guy in Edmonton who ran down the cop on his way to running down other people wanted his gun. Why? There are millions of guns in Canada. But he couldn't get one, so he tried to get one off a cop. He could have killed a lot more people with a gun. The guy in Ottawa who ran into the parliament buildings didn't manage to kill anyone there. One of the reasons is he had a rifle which had to be cocked after each shot, and had a small magazine. If he'd had an AR-15 with a high capacity magazine there would have been more deaths. But he couldn't get one of those. They guy who ran down people in New York city last month couldn't get his hands on anything more lethal (aside from the truck) than a pellet gun. If he'd had an AR-15 he'd have been able to kill a lot more people. But he couldn't get one. New York and New Jersey have far stricter gun laws than Florida.
The terrorists in London are the same. All they had were knives. Imagine the damage they could have done with Uzis or AR15s.
Gun laws aren't going to stop all such killings, but they do make it harder to ring up a high kill rate, especially if you're impatient and crazy and wary of going through a government check to get a permit.
And I am a gun owner, btw. Nor am I a flaming liberal.
This is about ideology and blame, reality doesn't enter into it.
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"Aggravate the problem", now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I could either challenge or run away from a "crazy" man if he wasn't able to put a 5.56 round into me no matter what I did.
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"Aggravate the problem", now there's an understatement if I ever heard one. I could either challenge or run away from a "crazy" man if he wasn't able to put a 5.56 round into me no matter what I did.
Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around, but it's only recently that these mass killing sprees against strangers have started to really explode. Why wasn't this happening much in the 1950s or 1960s? Or, for that matter, the 1930s? Lot of miserable people in the great depression, tons of poverty and hopelessness. Were kids taking dad's guns to school and shooting people? Not that I ever read about. And why doesn't this happen in Black areas? When a black kid shoots people at school its usually a specific target. I can't recall an incident where a black kid went to school in Harlem or Compton and just shot up kids at random.
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Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around, but it's only recently that these mass killing sprees against strangers have started to really explode. Why wasn't this happening much in the 1950s or 1960s? Or, for that matter, the 1930s? Lot of miserable people in the great depression, tons of poverty and hopelessness. Were kids taking dad's guns to school and shooting people? Not that I ever read about. And why doesn't this happen in Black areas? When a black kid shoots people at school its usually a specific target. I can't recall an incident where a black kid went to school in Harlem or Compton and just shot up kids at random.
They have had guns in the US for many years it's true, but I suspect you might have a problem conducting a mass shooting with a muzzle loader. Guns like the ever popular AR 15 which of course does work well for such things has been on the market since the late 60's and the first shooting with one wasn't until 1982 at which time there were around 160,000 in circulation. Now there are in excess of 8 million and all you need to get one in Florida anyway is be 18 years old. Trump bailing on gun control to blame the whole issue on mental health is simply to keep him in the NRA's good books and by that I mean check books.
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Their gun laws aggravate what is a societal problem with emotional instability and lack of empathy for others. They are not the source of the problem. As the gun nuts would point out, America has ALWAYS had tons of guns laying around.
Now correlation does not means causation but here is some interesting data to look at:
The more we look at other similar events it would seem a pattern emerges. A law enforcement friend sent me a chart looking at 47 school shootings and stabbings between 1992 and 2011. A common denominator exists that bears discussion. In every event the attacker was being treated for some form of diagnosed mental issue or personality disorder with psychotropic medication.
http://www.primetimecrime.com/columns/Columns%202013/20130122.htm
Another interesting data point:
Although the victims of shootings are random, the occurrence of shootings is not random throughout the year. National news on one shooting seems to trigger the next shooter who was contemplating doing something similar. Then we often see a latent period for a month or two before another rash of shootings occurs.
That was not always how it used to be. And I am talking five years ago and 10 years ago. The shootings clustered, yes, but less frequently. Around 2012, the average number of incidents a year was about 15. Around 2003, there were about seven incidents a year. From 1950 to 2000, only about three incidents or less occurred a year. The past three years, we have had 20 or more incidents each year. The number of fatalities has also tripled.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/mass-homicides-are-contagious-and-the-malady-is-fuelled-by-themedia/article38010220/
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They have had guns in the US for many years it's true, but I suspect you might have a problem conducting a mass shooting with a muzzle loader.
They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them. And I don't know of anything like what happened at Sandy Hook or Columbine until the eighties. I think the texas university sniper kicked off the modern age of mass shootings in the mid sixties.
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They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them. And I don't know of anything like what happened at Sandy Hook or Columbine until the eighties. I think the texas university sniper kicked off the modern age of mass shootings in the mid sixties.
And those automatic weapons were issued to the military and were meant to be kept there, not sold at your local corner gun shop. The AR 15 when it was originally made was meant to be also a military only item, but then Colt got a hold of it and now there are apparently ~8 million in civilian hands. Maybe if someone would have pushed for gun control back when, there would be a lot of school kids still at their desks.
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They had fully automatic weapons in the twenties, and most American men, certainly those who served in WW1, would be familiar with them.
Not in general use. The Tommy gun was invented as a trench weapon for WW1 but was too late to see service. It was a gangster weapon that didn’t see general military use until WW2 and wasn’t that popular. The primary US infantry weapon was the M1 semi automatic with an 8 round magazine. The British Lee Enfield bolt action held 10 and was more accurate.
The M16 which the AR15 is based on didn’t see service till Vietnam Nam.
The NRA types think they can turn the clock back to the fifties, in spite of the population doubling, demographics changing and providing unrestricted access to AR15 style weapons to every whack job in the country. As usual, their solution to too many guns is more guns.
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And those automatic weapons were issued to the military and were meant to be kept there, not sold at your local corner gun shop.
There seems to have been a number of them in the hands of criminals, esp during the organized crime fights over territory during prohibition.
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There seems to have been a number of them in the hands of criminals, esp during the organized crime fights over territory during prohibition.
Criminals have their ways of course, but all this guy in Florida had to do was prove his age and pay the price and walk over to his school. Perhaps a specified wait period to allow a background check would have revealed the existing problems that should have prevented him from actually getting his hands on the weapon.
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Criminals have their ways of course, but all this guy in Florida had to do was prove his age and pay the price and walk over to his school. Perhaps a specified wait period to allow a background check would have revealed the existing problems that should have prevented him from actually getting his hands on the weapon.
Pay for a gun? Heck, he could have been a good golfer and gotten one for free!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/17/private-school-fla-give-away-2-guns-fundraiser/348813002/
The 15th annual Trinitas Classic and Pro Am Golf Tournament, a fundraiser for Trinitas Christian Academy, will feature a Browning A-BOLT III Stalker, a bolt-action rifle, and a Smith & Wesson M&P15 — a sporting rifle similar in design to the AR-15 — as prizes for a putting contest.
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Pay for a gun? Heck, he could have been a good golfer and gotten one for free!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/17/private-school-fla-give-away-2-guns-fundraiser/348813002/
I don't have a link just now but if you saw Bowling for Columbine you probably recall the scene were a bank was awarding new customers with rifles. (I'm not a huge Michael Moore fan but he made a point there)
I wonder how comprehensive the "background check" was.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cglnvXzitOQ
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Milennials -> unbound
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/02/20/daily-202-florida-shooting-aftermath-shows-a-generation-that-s-more-impressive-than-typically-portrayed/5a8b982630fb047655a06814/?utm_term=.69a15be961ea
It's hard to see how this could NOT capture the attention of motivated young people. This is actually the NRA's nightmare, as their supporting demographic is old and can be convinced with $$$, via advertising.
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This kid bought 10 guns and a bunch of assorted tactical equipment in less than a year. You would think this many purchases would produce some kind of flag somewhere?
How does a kid make that many purchases and NOBODY ever taps him on the shoulder and asks, "Dude, WTF are you doing?"
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This kid bought 10 guns and a bunch of assorted tactical equipment in less than a year. You would think this many purchases would produce some kind of flag somewhere?
How does a kid make that many purchases and NOBODY ever taps him on the shoulder and asks, "Dude, WTF are you doing?"
It seems a lot of warning signs were ignored, including by the FBI. Buying a shitload of guns in a country that loves guns was minor by comparison.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-nikolas-cruz-warning-signs-20180216-story.html
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This kid bought 10 guns and a bunch of assorted tactical equipment in less than a year. You would think this many purchases would produce some kind of flag somewhere?
How does a kid make that many purchases and NOBODY ever taps him on the shoulder and asks, "Dude, WTF are you doing?"
How does a 19 year old high school dropout even afford to buy those things? Are guns that much less expensive than in Canada? Here they're mostly a thousand bucks apiece or more.
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Milennials -> unbound
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/02/20/daily-202-florida-shooting-aftermath-shows-a-generation-that-s-more-impressive-than-typically-portrayed/5a8b982630fb047655a06814/?utm_term=.69a15be961ea
It's hard to see how this could NOT capture the attention of motivated young people. This is actually the NRA's nightmare, as their supporting demographic is old and can be convinced with $$$, via advertising.
Old people vote, have money and like guns.
Young people, not so much.
2 weeks from now this will be a distant memory.
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How does a 19 year old high school dropout even afford to buy those things? Are guns that much less expensive than in Canada? Here they're mostly a thousand bucks apiece or more.
Less than 500 bucks gets you an ar15 and 3 magazines.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/7455016/rock-hill-south-carolina-rifles-for-sale-trade--ar15
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Less than 500 bucks gets you an ar15 and 3 magazines.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/7455016/rock-hill-south-carolina-rifles-for-sale-trade--ar15
Well, that's less than half the price of a high powered rifle in Canada, but even so. When I was nineteen I sure didn't have $600 to spare to buy a gun, much less $6,000
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Well, that's less than half the price of a high powered rifle in Canada, but even so. When I was nineteen I sure didn't have $600 to spare to buy a gun, much less $6,000
Did you rack up credit card debt? Steal? Use every penny you earned to buy guns and save money by taking the bus? Maybe the kid was good with money.
Luckily, you couldn’t have bought such an Arsenal in Canada even if you tried....
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At 18 we all wanted a car but then AR15's weren't an option.
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At 18 we all wanted a car but then AR15's weren't an option.
You can't get laid in the back seat of your AR15.
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You can't get laid in the back seat of your AR15.
:)
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You can't get laid in the back seat of your AR15.
You might have done in a CAR-15...
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Did you rack up credit card debt? Steal? Use every penny you earned to buy guns and save money by taking the bus? Maybe the kid was good with money.
Luckily, you couldn’t have bought such an Arsenal in Canada even if you tried....
Actually, I could buy most of it right now. I mean, I have the money. There are lots of semi automatic rifles available in Canada, like the Ruger mini14, and all you have to do is (illegally) remove the block in the magazine that restricts the number of bullets it can hold. I don't own one and am too lazy to look up how it's done but it's certainly doable.
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You would have to get a PAL first.
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Interesting, but not surprising.
Ruger Mini14
NRA Model[edit]
Offered only in 2008, the limited-edition "NRA Model" Ranch Rifle included a shorter 16.12-inch (409 mm) barrel and a polymer stock with a gold National Rifle Association medallion. Ruger made a donation to the NRA-ILA for every rifle sold.[12]
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You would have to get a PAL first.
Got one. Yes, it's a pain in the ass and you have to give up a weekend. Note that all the people who give these mandatory instruction courses are told by the RCMP to inform them if anyone in their course seems - odd, or suspicious. Somehow I never triggered anyone.
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Interesting, but not surprising.
Ruger Mini14
That particular version would be restricted in Canada because of the short barrel, but I could still buy it. But restricted weapons are a pita since you can only shoot them in supervised ranges, and there are no good ones in Ottawa. There are other versions with a 22 inch barrel.
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Got one. Yes, it's a pain in the ass and you have to give up a weekend. Note that all the people who give these mandatory instruction courses are told by the RCMP to inform them if anyone in their course seems - odd, or suspicious. Somehow I never triggered anyone.
All Cruz needed was to be 18 years old and wait 72 hrs for god knows what, didn't matter if he was bat **** crazy, Trump repealed the legislation that might have flagged it.
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That particular version would be restricted in Canada because of the short barrel, but I could still buy it. But restricted weapons are a pita since you can only shoot them in supervised ranges, and there are no good ones in Ottawa. There are other versions with a 22 inch barrel.
We walk along the Sumas river in the morning across from the Abbotsford rod and gun club range. We hear people blasting away quite often, sometimes it is obvious they are using some kind of semi auto. We have noticed lately that CBSA are using it. There is another range on the north side of town that the Abby police also use.
Restricted weapons should be a pita, that's why they are restricted.
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/21/us/mass-shootings-conspiracy-theories-trnd/index.html
How they [conspiracy theories] can be stopped
The best way to combat this, said Binkowski, is by constant debunking, but also by pointing a finger at people with big media platforms who spread this garbage.
"We are debunking them as fast as we can. I am also aggressively calling out the people who are pushing these stories as part of my strategy," she said. "Not just because I find it disgusting, but also because when others see how fast they fold when confronted with facts, I think it helps discredit those pushing things that should be discredited."
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We know from the 9/11 truthers that dealing with them is like playing whack a mole. Now you don't know whether you are dealing with a garden variety zealot or a Russian provocateur. Good luck to them.
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It also doesn't help when you have a President who doesn't want to know.
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We know from the 9/11 truthers that dealing with them is like playing whack a mole. Now you don't know whether you are dealing with a garden variety zealot or a Russian provocateur. Good luck to them.
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It also doesn't help when you have a President who doesn't want to know.
Yep, HotEnough was something to behold.
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We know from the 9/11 truthers that dealing with them is like playing whack a mole. Now you don't know whether you are dealing with a garden variety zealot or a Russian provocateur. Good luck to them.
Not true. The Truthers in my Facebook feed (which is nonymous) have quieted down to almost nothing. They are absolutely shouted down by people who know them IRL.
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I'm just listening to the "listening session" Trump is hosting at the WH in the wake of the Florida school shooting. He is nodding his head every once in a while but I wonder if he is actually listening or is it in one ear and out the other, and will the NRA continue to be who he really listens to. We shall see but I am not confident. All he has done so far is agree to outlaw bump stocks. Cruz didn't need a friggin bump stock to take out 17 people.
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Not true. The Truthers in my Facebook feed (which is nonymous) have quieted down to almost nothing. They are absolutely shouted down by people who know them IRL.
Maybe on Facebook but they keep looking for new forums. HotEnough was just the latest of several who showed up on MLW during the time I was there. There will be another before long.
Is nonymous the opposite of anonymous? :)
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I'm just listening to the "listening session" Trump is hosting at the WH in the wake of the Florida school shooting. He is nodding his head every once in a while but I wonder if he is actually listening or is it in one ear and out the other, and will the NRA continue to be who he really listens to. We shall see but I am not confident. All he has done so far is agree to outlaw bump stocks. Cruz didn't need a friggin bump stock to take out 17 people.
Maybe the fact he shut up and let them speak might be a positive sign? Not holding my breath. :-\
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See my post on the Trump thread :(
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See my post on the Trump thread :(
Thanks, question answered.
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Old people vote, have money and like guns.
Young people, not so much.
2 weeks from now this will be a distant memory.
Distant? Hardly. The issue is hotter than a pistol.
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When I heard about the YouTube shooting I thought oh, another day, another shooting in the US. But it wasn't!
This time it was a woman. Only the 3rd out of ~150 since 1966 (one of which was with her husband).
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When I heard about the YouTube shooting I thought oh, another day, another shooting in the US. But it wasn't!
This time it was a woman. Only the 3rd out of ~150 since 1966 (one of which was with her husband).
So far I've heard speculation it may be work related or a domestic (love triangle) situation, but it's early times and the perp killed herself so the incentive will likely be harder to determine. In any case I'll stick my neck out and say it was probably a legally, and easily purchased gun. Possibly bought at Billy Bobs Gun Store the day prior.
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So far I've heard speculation it may be work related or a domestic (love triangle) situation, but it's early times and the perp killed herself so the incentive will likely be harder to determine.
There was an early report from the police that she knew one of the victims, but that has since been walked back. She has been identified as Nasim Najafi Aghdam, so I am sure the name alone will fuel speculation now.
The police are looking into the possibility she was previously complaining about youtube restricting her videos and not sending traffic to them. They apparently found a website with someone resembling her making allegations against youtube policies including: "There is no equal growth opportunity on YOUTUBE or any other video sharing site, your channel will grow if they want to!!!!!". She complained to her family that youtube stopped paying her. She also complained about free speech: “There is no free speech in real world & you will be suppressed for telling the truth that is not supported by the system”
No real information on her previous videos other than they were about being vegan, and had pictures of a woman wearing different outfits. Apparently she has a long history of being an animal rights activist. She has been described by others as a vegan bodybuilder, artist and rapper. The dispute with youtube however seems to be all about money.
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Background:
https://qz.com/1244549/nasim-najafi-aghdam-the-youtube-shooter-was-an-animal-rights-activist-angry-at-youtube-over-her-ad-revenues/
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She was a vegan YouTuber who was disgruntled with demonetization.
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From reading Michael's "Quartz" article, I am sensing some mental instability and persecution paranoia.
-k
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I've read something about this over the past few months. Youtube was stung by having advertisers find their ads on videos about Nazis and the like so decided to 'clean things up'. Now the way they did that, of course, was to engage in sweeping censorship with algorithms and as few paid humans involved as possible. All kinds of youtube contributors suddenly found their videos demonetized because of a bikini shot, or a swear word, or some sort of implied violence. Youtube has no contact number for these people. All they can do is send an email and deal with a service desk which mostly just sends them bland, rote legal responses a couple of days later saying their video violated terms of service - but not how. It could have been a single two second segment of it but they won't tell you so you can cut that part. In this womans case it was probably gross pictures of animals being slaughtered, but that's speculative on my part. I haven't seen any of her videos.
People have gone from working crappy jobs to making hundreds of thousands of dollars on Youtube, and then some software check or some junior clerk somewhere in the bowels of youtube can make a casual decision which massively cuts their income to almost nothing. With little explanation and no way to get one. It's like winning the lottery and then having it taken away with no explanation. Lots of people are very, very angry. And with reason.
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One of the biggest changes they made is that contributors need to have at least 1000 followers before being monetized. It used to be much lower, which effectively took cheques away from thousands of people who were able to use YouTube as a source of income. They also cut the amount of funding people get by about 75%.
That's not even touching the idea of "networks" which do their damnedest to rob contributors blind by coercing them into signing exploitative contracts.
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Lots of people are very, very angry. And with reason.
>:(
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She was a vegan YouTuber who was disgruntled with demonetization.
With a middle-eastern name. Animal-rights terrorist perhaps?
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Well now there's another 8 people shot, 4 of them dead, shot in a Waffle House by a nutbar with an AR-15, and he is on the run with 2 other weapons. I wonder if Trump will weigh in or is he too busy playing another round of **** golf to be bothered. Maybe they should think about taking weapons of war off the streets, regardless what the NRA thinks. Maybe somebody should shoot Wayne LaPierre.
http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/04/22/four-dead-in-nashville-waffle-house-shooting/
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Well now there's another 8 people shot, 4 of them dead, shot in a Waffle House by a nutbar
Wearing nothing but a green jacket, and then he took off his jacket and fled.
Does that mean he is a nutbar for running around naked?
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Wearing nothing but a green jacket, and then he took off his jacket and fled.
Does that mean he is a nutbar for running around naked?
I dunno but what I also found interesting is that he had his guns taken away from him previously in Illinois for activities indicating he shouldn't have guns. The weapons were then given to his parents and these were the guns he took to Nashville. Whether the guns were given back to him or he stole them is not known yet apparently, but when he crossed the border into Nashville he was carrying legally in that state. And once again who the hell, outside of the military, needs an AR 15?
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The weapons were then given to his parents and these were the guns he took to Nashville.
Yes, his father should face jail time, a lifetime weapons ban, and his own guns confiscated and melted down.
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Yes, his father should face jail time, a lifetime weapons ban, and his own guns confiscated and melted down.
For what? There are no gun storage laws or mandatory reporting of stolen guns in Tennessee.
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For what? There are no gun storage laws or mandatory reporting of stolen guns in Tennessee.
It wasn't stolen, the accomplice father gave a weapon to the muderous son after he was informed the murderous son was forbidden to have them. That accomplice father belongs behind bars for a long time.
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It wasn't stolen, the accomplice father gave a weapon to the muderous son after he was informed the murderous son was forbidden to have them. That accomplice father belongs behind bars for a long time.
How do you know it wasn’t stolen?
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How do you know it wasn’t stolen?
The police would not have returned the guns to the father if they had been reported stolen.
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How do you know it wasn’t stolen?
Read the article
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13 dead in cali. I wonder if this is related at all to the midterms. "Die liberal college voters!" or something.
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The gunman was an ex marine, apparently.
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13 dead in cali. I wonder if this is related at all to the midterms. "Die liberal college voters!" or something.
Country & western theme with line dancing classes?
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Too bad Trump and LaPierre weren't visiting at the time.
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Hey it's been all of 11 days since the last mass shooting in the US so they're keeping pretty much on schedule.
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A gun nut on my Facebook:
Sad, hopefully they can get better mental health services figured out. Obviously the strict gun control measures california has in place (stricter than Canada’s) don’t work. Who woulda thought that an evil person would follow laws.
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Because California is an island ::)
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Well the stats seem to show gun laws actually do work.
The relationship between gun laws and firearms deaths is compelling. In states like Alabama,. Alaska and Louisiana, where guns are lightly regulated, the rate of deaths by firearms (per 100,000 people) is more than four times higher than in New York, Connecticut, Hawaii or Massachusetts, which have some of the strictest gun laws in the country.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/27/states-with-strict-gun-laws-have-fewer-firearms-deaths-heres-how-your-state-stacks-up.html
Stats in Canada would also seem to bear that out. Last time I checked you are about 10 times more likely to be shot in the US than in Canada. And we have a lot of guns!
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The gunman was an ex marine, apparently.
Its not unusual for returned war vets not getting proper diagnosis and counselling to have serious issues assimilating and some as we have seen have been violent.
What is known is he had the kind of gun that had an easy to reload magazine that could get off rounds very quickly in what some call the gun spray effect. You just shoot into the crowd and its bound with rapid fire to kill.
Anyone who does not think mass killings are contagious and copy-catted need only look at the pattern.
Sad thing is we all know more are coming.
Well this shooter was not part of the caravan invading the US.
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Its not unusual for returned war vets not getting proper diagnosis and counselling to have serious issues assimilating and some as we have seen have been violent.
What is known is he had the kind of gun that had an easy to reload magazine that could get off rounds very quickly in what some call the gun spray effect. You just shoot into the crowd and its bound with rapid fire to kill.
Anyone who does not think mass killings are contagious and copy-catted need only look at the pattern.
Sad thing is we all know more are coming.
Well this shooter was not part of the caravan invading the US.
With Trump so fully beholden to the nra, of course there will be more, and more, more, more.
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With Trump so fully beholden to the nra, of course there will be more, and more, more, more.
But, but, but... he wasn't... until somebody filled him in.
Remember him telling a senator (I think it was) "you're afraid of the NRA" ?
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I liked this reply to the nra tweet telling ER doctors who are getting a bit tired of treating gun violence to"stay in their own lane" “I see no one from the @nra next to me in the trauma bay as I have cared for victims of gun violence for the past 25 years,” she wrote. “THAT must be MY lane. COME INTO MY LANE. Tell one mother her child is dead with me, then we can talk.” https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/us/nra-stay-in-your-lane-doctors.html
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This Texas incident appears to be the third this year with a link to the 8chan message board, as someone at 8chan posted a manifesto there before the attack.
If the manifesto is authentic, it would make it the third mass shooting announced in advance on 8chan in less than five months.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/03/el-paso-shooting-21-year-old-suspect-in-custody-as-officials-investigate-possible-hate
8chan is a message board full of Trumptards, incels, conspiritards, Gamergaters, and other deranged and psychotic young men. I'm not well-read on its origins, but I believe they are a group that broke off from 4chan after 4chan started banning discussion that was too deranged (like mass shooting manifestos for example.) 8chan members are people who were too disgusting and vile for 4chan, which is kind of like being so dumb and obnoxious that you get booted out of Coal Roller rallies.
A company called "Cloudflare" has dissociated itself from 8chan. Cloudflare was apparently providing protection to 8chan to shield it from cyber-attacks, but that service has now been terminated.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/05/cloudflare-8chan-matthew-prince-terminate-service-cuts-off-far-right-message-board-el-paso-shooting
-k
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https://www.newsweek.com/gun-violence-children-killed-sandy-hook-military-soldiers-war-terror-911-848602?fbclid=IwAR3cBQ6VUCwvAiisgf0ktgsfw_JGNoRg3hGOBCA5VFaOI7mYsafCjMdaSIQ
The number of children killed by gunfire in the U.S. since the 2012 mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, surpasses the total of American soldiers killed in overseas combat since 9/11, according to a Department of Defense report.
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https://www.newsweek.com/gun-violence-children-killed-sandy-hook-military-soldiers-war-terror-911-848602?fbclid=IwAR3cBQ6VUCwvAiisgf0ktgsfw_JGNoRg3hGOBCA5VFaOI7mYsafCjMdaSIQ
The number of children killed by gunfire in the U.S. since the 2012 mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, surpasses the total of American soldiers killed in overseas combat since 9/11, according to a Department of Defense report.
Apparently republicans don't give a fiddelly arse F**k. Or they agree with Trump that it must be caused by young people playing video games. I'm bettin' there's another one this week. Who cares as long as the nra has control of the WH!
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Then for sure it's caused by 8Chan and he will have to shut them down...
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Then for sure it's caused by 8Chan and he will have to shut them down...
8chan may not be the cause, exactly, but it seems like a tool by which these basement dwelling losers are becoming radicalized.
-k
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8chan may not be the cause, exactly, but it seems like a tool by which these basement dwelling losers are becoming radicalized.
-k
8chan is both the effect and the cause. It feeds into itself.
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8chan is both the effect and the cause. It feeds into itself.
Ya but you don't visit 8chan unless you're into that stuff in the first place. But no doubt going on there further encourages people.
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At least they’ve figured out why this stuff is happening....
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/tony-perkins-mass-shootings_n_5d6cb130e4b011080451591d
An evangelical leader claimed Sunday that mass shootings are caused by “driving God from the public square,” and specifically by teaching kids about evolution.
“We’ve taught our kids that they come about by chance through primordial slime and then we’re surprised that they treat their fellow Americans like dirt,” Tony Perkins, head of the Family Research Council, said on “Fox & Friends” one day after a gunman in Texas killed seven and wounded 21 others.
“I think we have to go back to the point where we instill in these children, at least give them the opportunity to know that they’re created in the image of God, therefore they have inherent value,” he added.
Perkins also claimed it’s impossible to have morality without religion, a view he said George Washington had shared.
People like this evangelical leader have millions of adherents and millions of dollars to push this kind of BS.
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At least they’ve figured out why this stuff is happening....
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/tony-perkins-mass-shootings_n_5d6cb130e4b011080451591d
People like this evangelical leader have millions of adherents and millions of dollars to push this kind of BS.
Well the average so far this year for mass shootings in the US is a little more than one per day. Now since it's almost 2 days since the Odessa/Midland Texas deal, the next one is overdue. I assume gun shops are open on Labor Day so things will soon be back on schedule.
The number of mass shootings across the U.S. thus far in 2019 has outpaced the number of days this year, according to a gun violence research group. This puts 2019 on pace to be the first year since 2016 with an average of more than one mass shooting a day.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mass-shootings-2019-more-mass-shootings-than-days-so-far-this-year/
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So it doesn't seem to matter even if you fail a background check you can still go ahead and buy an assault rifle when you get in the mood for a mass shooting. Maybe Trump is right, let every crazy Mo FO have all the guns they want. When Americans finish killing each other as they babble about the 2nd amendment, we'll head for their southern beaches.
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If you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. As the saying goes.
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If you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. As the saying goes.
How is that saying relevant to this situation?
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If you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. As the saying goes.
Children in classrooms are usually carrying books, not swords.
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Children in classrooms are usually carrying books, not swords.
7 dead people “lived by the sword”, according to Poonlight.
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7 dead people “lived by the sword”, according to Poonlight.
Yeah, and again what's interesting when you look at the difference in the numbers between US and Canada is that we also own a lot of "swords", but we don't die by them nearly as often. Trump tells us it's all to do with mental illness. According to that Canada, is a much saner country.
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How is that saying relevant to this situation?
Americans have high rates of gun ownership, and so they have high rates of gun violence.
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Americans have high rates of gun ownership, and so they have high rates of gun violence.
That seems to assume that simply owning a gun is going to cause one to use it in a violent way. We have guns here in Canada but we don't shoot each other near as often. Might be a bit to do with who can, and how easy it is to get a gun in the US. The latest shooter in the US already had a criminal background but that didn't stop him from buying an assault rifle. And who the hell needs an AR15 unless you are military?
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Americans have high rates of gun ownership, and so they have high rates of gun violence.
I think it is a bit more than that. Yes the high rate of gun ownership, especially the type of weapons is one factor. I think there are other societal issues as well.
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I think it is a bit more than that. Yes the high rate of gun ownership, especially the type of weapons is one factor. I think there are other societal issues as well.
That's true. Income inequality and poverty etc.
They also have a gun culture when instead of calling the cops they keep a gun in the closet or the glove compartment.
You're also statistically far more likely to be a victim of gun violence if you yourself own a gun. Hence, live by the sword...
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Interesting to wath the dumb mo fo's in the US freaking out because the Dems want to take away their assault rifles. I say make AR-15's available at every retail outlet in the US. Let them continue to shoot each other and maybe with any luck LaPierre will take a slug while he's sitting down to dinner.
Apparently squid is a gun fan.
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What a terrible place.
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Why would you wish death on anyone? That is horrible!
I don't wish death on anyone. I am poking a stick at the idiots who think you should be able to go to a Wal Mart and buy an assault rifle. That stupidity seems to indicate they don't really care about gun deaths.
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I agree.
It is terrible when innocent people get killed. North America is becoming more lonely and isolated from their social circles with each new advancement in technology. I wish we could turn back the clock to the mid 1990/s before smartphones and social media. It has reduced our quality of life.
A bit of a wait period while a background check is carried out and keeping certain weapons meant solely for the battlefield, only available to those who might end up on a battlefield seems to have kept us much safer in Canada.
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I agree.
It is terrible when innocent people get killed. North America is becoming more lonely and isolated from their social circles with each new advancement in technology. I wish we could turn back the clock to the mid 1990/s before smartphones and social media. It has reduced our quality of life.
While I think yearning for the past erases a lot of the bad stuff that happened, technology has been a mixed blessing. It is arguable that its ability to enlighten us has been outweighed by its ability to isolate us.
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Another day/another shooting in the US, this time at a high school in Santa Clarita California. 1 dead, 2 in critical, 3 others in hospital, so far. This should help expand the market for (FOR WHAT?!) for bulletproof backpacks kids can now buy to carry their books in. I wonder what kind of brain dead blather the likes of Wayne LaPierre and the nitwits at the NRA will use to gloss over this latest one. Or will they simply try to trot out the old saw "good guys with guns.....blah, blah, blah"
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Just another day in the USA.
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Just another day in the USA.
I hadn't heard of these bulletproof backpacks until just now. And the more I think of it, the more it sinks in, the more I shudder. For instance, to think of heading downtown to do Christmas shopping and having on my list a bulletproof school book bag to try to protect my kid from being shot by a classmate.