Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: MH on January 30, 2018, 05:53:41 am


Title: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 05:53:41 am
 http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-let-those-who-know-best-pick-a-party-leader-thats-the-caucus-not-the-membership

Coyne makes the case for having the caucus pick the leader.  The current process, he says, is called 'more democratic' but...

Quote
Only, please don’t call this “more democratic.” Leave aside the likelihood of irregularities and warlordism in such a hastily-organized campaign. Ignore the violation of the core democratic principle of government with the consent of the governed. No, what is most galling about the travesty of democracy to come is its virulently undemocratic premise: that members of caucus are just a bunch of nobodies — or what is worse, “elites.”

Those would be the nobodies who won first the party nomination, then the general election in their ridings. Each was the democratic choice of tens of thousands of voters; collectively, of hundreds of thousands. True, their independence and authority as elected representatives has been allowed to atrophy, in favour of the party leader; and true, in today’s obsessively leader-focused campaigns, the individual candidate owes his or her seat more to the leader than to his own efforts.

DoFo as Premier...
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on January 30, 2018, 10:28:59 am
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-let-those-who-know-best-pick-a-party-leader-thats-the-caucus-not-the-membership

Coyne makes the case for having the caucus pick the leader.  The current process, he says, is called 'more democratic' but...

DoFo as Premier...

I would be okay with this, but ONLY if they re-run the process. When Fedeli was selected it was a INTERIM leader and others who might have had an interest in becoming leader probably bowed out. If it's to be actual leader then re-run it and see if he wins this time.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 10:46:41 am
The Globe opinion says that there's a war brewing any way so they may as well have a convention.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 10:49:33 am
I didn't quite capture what the Globe guy said:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/doug-ford-as-leader-is-a-nightmare-for-many-ontario-pcs-but-theres-a-silver-lining-in-his-bid/article37784530/
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on January 30, 2018, 10:50:00 am
The Globe opinion says that there's a war brewing any way so they may as well have a convention.

Well, Mulroney was apparently quite competent in private life, and would certainly put a fresh young face on the party. She'd also be very hard for the old warhorses of the Liberal party to portray as an evil far right troglodyte. Dunno if she'd be any good but right now all I care about is getting the Liberals out of there.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 01:15:54 pm
Well, Mulroney was apparently quite competent in private life, and would certainly put a fresh young face on the party. She'd also be very hard for the old warhorses of the Liberal party to portray as an evil far right troglodyte. Dunno if she'd be any good but right now all I care about is getting the Liberals out of there.

Yeah, I was looking up her linked in.

It's really time for a new party to supplant the Liberals, and replace it with moral and financial pragmatism in the centre.  The British Liberal party died in the 1970s why does ours continue ? 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 01:16:42 pm
Certainly they would be muchly hard-pressed to find something wrong with a smart and well-educated female centrist.

The Liberals would be cooked.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 30, 2018, 01:23:05 pm
Despite her inexperience, I think Mulroney would be unbeatable. Ford, on the other hand, would make sense if they liked being in opposition and want to stay there. Maybe he could get some help from Russian hackers to make it competitive though.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 01:42:33 pm
Despite her inexperience, I think Mulroney would be unbeatable.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolinelapham/?trk=public-profile-join-page

She's the same age her dad was when he became PM and arguably more experienced.  I  think he was a mining company president.

Quote
Ford, on the other hand, would make sense if they liked being in opposition and want to stay there. Maybe he could get some help from Russian hackers to make it competitive though.

Ford has learned the FordTrump magic of telling poor slobs that he is one of them and getting people who have never looked at a ballot in their lives to get excited.  Of course, f*** him.  But he could win.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on January 30, 2018, 02:08:34 pm
Certainly they would be muchly hard-pressed to find something wrong with a smart and well-educated female centrist.

The Liberals would be cooked.
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else. We don’t need centrists. We need centrists in politics. We need people with principles who stand for something. I don’t even care if I’m personally opposed to what they stand for but centrism is the consequence of intellectual laziness. People need to take some responsibility for their stances and stop riding fences.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 02:29:14 pm
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else. We don’t need centrists. We need centrists in politics. We need people with principles who stand for something. I don’t even care if I’m personally opposed to what they stand for but centrism is the consequence of intellectual laziness. People need to take some responsibility for their stances and stop riding fences.

Centrist is a stupid term.   I think we need unifiers who are not strongly tied to one side of 1930s politics.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: TimG on January 30, 2018, 02:32:54 pm
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else.
A centrist is someone who can see both sides of the arguments. A centrist is some who wants to build consensus. I think we need a lot more of those.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on January 30, 2018, 02:44:22 pm
I call them unifiers.

There is actually less division between Canadian right/left than in a lot of places. 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on January 30, 2018, 02:54:54 pm
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else

No, it's a "I like some of YOUR policies, in moderation, and I like some of HIS policies in moderation".
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: BC_cheque on January 30, 2018, 03:19:02 pm
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else. We don’t need centrists. We need centrists in politics. We need people with principles who stand for something. I don’t even care if I’m personally opposed to what they stand for but centrism is the consequence of intellectual laziness. People need to take some responsibility for their stances and stop riding fences.

Exactly why I don't like the Liberals. 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on January 30, 2018, 04:56:44 pm
A centrist is someone who can see both sides of the arguments.
It doesn’t mean someone doesn’t see your side of the argument if they disagree with it or think it’s stupid.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 30, 2018, 06:36:35 pm
Centrist isn’t a position. It’s a “pox on both houses” that defines itself by rejecting everything else. We don’t need centrists. We need centrists in politics. We need people with principles who stand for something. I don’t even care if I’m personally opposed to what they stand for but centrism is the consequence of intellectual laziness. People need to take some responsibility for their stances and stop riding fences.

Disagree.  Centrists don't lean to extremes, and aren't overly ideological, they have conservative views on some things & liberal views on others, & others where their views are more moderate.  "Centrist" isn't necessarily "riding fences", its usually where you tend to land on the spectrum when you add up all your views in different areas.  Someone who can't take a firm stance on an issue is something else entirely.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: TimG on January 30, 2018, 07:15:49 pm
It doesn’t mean someone doesn’t see your side of the argument if they disagree with it or think it’s stupid.
My post had two clauses which should have been taken together. Understanding both sides of an argument is a necessary but not sufficient criteria for a centrist. The other one is a willingness to seek consensus through compromise which is obviously not an option for people who think the other side is "stupid". Ideological purity may make extremists feel good about themselves but can never lead to effective governance of a society with a huge diversity of views. The most ideological purists can hope for is a few years of happiness where their ideology is imposed until their guys are booted out and all their changes are reversed by the opposite ideologues that replace them.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Rue on January 31, 2018, 03:58:33 pm
My post had two clauses which should have been taken together. Understanding both sides of an argument is a necessary but not sufficient criteria for a centrist. The other one is a willingness to seek consensus through compromise which is obviously not an option for people who think the other side is "stupid". Ideological purity may make extremists feel good about themselves but can never lead to effective governance of a society with a huge diversity of views. The most ideological purists can hope for is a few years of happiness where their ideology is imposed until their guys are booted out and all their changes are reversed by the opposite ideologues that replace them.

Of course, and your comments again make sense.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2018, 10:02:43 am
Polling suggests the PCs are the favourite no matter who they pick.

DoFo makes me cringe but if he can take home the Toronto burbs then it's worth it.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 13, 2018, 12:01:17 pm
Polling suggests the PCs are the favourite no matter who they pick.

Yes, they do well without a leader. It is once they have a leader that they fail.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2018, 12:42:11 pm
Patrick Brown was also ahead in the polls. It's actually pretty shitty what happened to him.

No one treated Dalton McGuinty for his social awkwardness that they did Brown.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on February 13, 2018, 08:34:43 pm
Based on the poll I saw, Christine Elliot looks like the most popular choice among voters, with Mulroney 2nd and Ford third, with all three showing a strong chance of beating Wynne and Horwath in the election.

I was reading yesterday that Ford was campaigning about the sex-ed curriculum.  I assume this means he intends to fire up the yokels and rednecks and fight the leadership campaign on social conservatism.   This will probably hurt the party's image among the general electorate.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 13, 2018, 08:45:01 pm
I was reading yesterday that Ford was campaigning about the sex-ed curriculum.  I assume this means he intends to fire up the yokels and rednecks and fight the leadership campaign on social conservatism.   This will probably hurt the party's image among the general electorate.

Regrettably Elliot has also said she'd re-look at the Sex-Ed issue. I'm hoping it similar to Harper saying he'd "re-visit Gay marriage". And that just means having a vote that's destined to lose.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on February 13, 2018, 09:16:30 pm
Patrick Brown was also ahead in the polls. It's actually pretty shitty what happened to him.

No one treated Dalton McGuinty for his social awkwardness that they did Brown.
Dalton McGuinty?  ::)
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 14, 2018, 12:03:14 pm
I was reading yesterday that Ford was campaigning about the sex-ed curriculum.  I assume this means he intends to fire up the yokels and rednecks and fight the leadership campaign on social conservatism.   This will probably hurt the party's image among the general electorate.

My understanding is the greatest resistance to the Wynne sex ed changes are not coming from 'yokels and rednecks' but from 'brown' people in the cities. I've found it amusing how the stern progressive media voices who support the sex ed curriculum have managed to completely ignore that.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 14, 2018, 12:47:32 pm
My understanding is the greatest resistance to the Wynne sex ed changes are not coming from 'yokels and rednecks' but from 'brown' people in the cities. I've found it amusing how the stern progressive media voices who support the sex ed curriculum have managed to completely ignore that.

Well you can't call brown people homophobes. That's racist.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 14, 2018, 01:48:16 pm
... have managed to completely ignore that.

How ?  They have shown the opponents on video and in photos and many of whom are as you mentioned.  What of it ?  Do you expect them to point out the fact that these are immigrants ?  Or are you just happy that liberals are not aligning with immigrants on some issue as you suggest they are always doing ?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 14, 2018, 01:55:26 pm
How ?  They have shown the opponents on video and in photos and many of whom are as you mentioned.  What of it ?  Do you expect them to point out the fact that these are immigrants ?  Or are you just happy that liberals are not aligning with immigrants on some issue as you suggest they are always doing ?

Trust me, it'll be painted as a redneck Chreeeestian rube thing. Not a Muslims hate gays thing.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 14, 2018, 02:21:08 pm
Trust me, it'll be painted as a redneck Chreeeestian rube thing. Not a Muslims hate gays thing.

How are they going to do that exactly ?  CGI ?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on February 14, 2018, 02:23:50 pm
Trust me, it'll be painted as a redneck Chreeeestian rube thing. Not a Muslims hate gays thing.
So you support the new curriculum then? Or are you just sad that people aren’t hating ion Muslims enough for you?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: bcsapper on February 14, 2018, 09:45:49 pm
As long as we all agree they're bigoted rednecked bastards, that's all that matters.

What did they do again...?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 15, 2018, 05:53:40 am
The lunkhead's dilemma:

If Conservative, having to align with Muslims
If Liberal, having to criticize immigrants

Oh, the agony...
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 16, 2018, 06:59:11 am
Apparently only Caroline Mulroney isn't going to revisit the sex-ed issue.  How is this a political winner, other than to get the religious votes at the very beginning of the race ?

One of the candidates (the unknown one) even went back to the bullshit "they are teaching anal sex to our children" meme...
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: guest4 on February 16, 2018, 08:49:52 am
Trust me, it'll be painted as a redneck Chreeeestian rube thing. Not a Muslims hate gays thing.

Who has been most.vocally opposed.to this sex ed thing, Christian or Muslim groups?   Or both?
https://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/sex-ed-curriculum
(Christian anti-abortion group)

http://www.cbc.ca/1.3032264
(Conservative groups organize protests)

http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/one-in-six-ontario-parents-considered-pulling-kids-from-school-over-new-sex-ed-curriculum-poll
(80% of Evangelicals/Pentacostal disapprove; ~30% Catholics/other religions disapprove; 45% of Pentacostals disapprove and 18% of those claiming no religion at all disapprove)

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/muslim-community-taking-the-lead-in-latest-round-of-ontario-sex-education-protests
(Muslim parents remove most kids from school to protest sex ed curriculum)

http://www.cbc.ca/1.3241086
(Muslims support sex ed curriculum)

(Couldn't find any news stories about Christians or Christian groups actively supporting the curriculum, but I am sure some do.  Not all Christians are gay-hating rubes)

Looks like (some) Christians hate gays as much as (some) Muslims do and that (some) Muslims are as much rubes as (some) Christians.  Christians, Muslims and conservatives together are no doubt a powerful and significant voting bloc so perhaps it is a good idea to kowtow to all these groups.


Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 16, 2018, 11:25:59 pm
Patrick Brown is running to be leader of a party he's tearing apart

Who wouldn't love to have that headline for their leadership bid ? 

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/reevely-the-harder-patrick-brown-fights-the-more-pain-for-his-party

Quote
Regardless, look at the burning dump Brown left behind in the leader’s office. His interim successor Vic Fedeli almost immediately revealed that despite Brown’s boasts just a couple of weeks earlier that the Tories had 200,000 paid-up members, the actual number was 133,000 and they weren’t done investigating. Scraping out the rot would occupy him full-time, Fedeli said, abandoning his plan to seek the party leadership permanently.

Brown’s friend, party president Rick Dykstra, resigned hours ahead of a sexual-misconduct scandal of his own.

The party overturned two of its own local nominations, including in Ottawa West-Nepean, and a third candidate asked for his own to be vacated. Too much cheating, or plausible allegations thereof, for them to stand. Brown had intervened personally to preserve them.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 17, 2018, 12:02:35 am
... and the dysfunctional Liberals will win again thanks to the even more dysfunctional PCs.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 18, 2018, 12:04:45 pm
How ?  They have shown the opponents on video and in photos and many of whom are as you mentioned.  What of it ?

Sure. And just about every time some druggy or gang member gets killed in a shooting in Ottawa he has an Arab/African name, as does the guy arrested. The media doesn't 'hide' that, but they sure as hell don't make a point of mentioning it much either. It's not like you'll ever see a newspapers story or column that says something like "Gee, how come the majority of all our shootings involve Muslims?" Ain't gonna happen.

So Kimmy suggests its rednecks and yokels opposing sex ed. Why? Kimmy is pretty smart. But unless you follow the news carefully you don't know this stuff. Esp if you're not in Ontario. Like I said, the media aren't going to draw attention to it if they can avoid doing so.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 18, 2018, 12:06:43 pm
Looks like (some) Christians hate gays as much as (some) Muslims do and that (some) Muslims are as much rubes as (some) Christians. 

You know, you don't have to hate gays to be wary of having your 8 year old taught that they can switch genders any time they feel like it.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: guest4 on February 18, 2018, 12:22:22 pm
You know, you don't have to hate gays to be wary of having your 8 year old taught that they can switch genders any time they feel like it.

Quote from Sir John:
My understanding is the greatest resistance to the Wynne sex ed changes are not coming from 'yokels and rednecks' but from 'brown' people in the cities

Quote from Boges:
Trust me, it'll be painted as a redneck Chreeeestian rube thing. Not a Muslims hate gays thing.

So what is it - Brown people/Muslims are against sex-ed because they hate gays, or White people/Christians are justifiably concerned about sex-ed because it informs students about transgender issues?

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on February 18, 2018, 01:04:26 pm
You know, you don't have to hate gays to be wary of having your 8 year old taught that they can switch genders any time they feel like it.

Do you think such teaching is going to cause your 8 year old to switch gender? I don't think so. But it may help them to be more capable of accepting someone who does. It is a reality you know.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 21, 2018, 09:11:02 am
It really looks like the the PCs just wanted Brown out. It's a party divided. And I can't even blame Wynne for it.

This party needs to get it's **** together. They could nominate a Colobus Monkey and win. In fact with this leadership strife a poll came out with them at 49%.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 21, 2018, 09:24:05 am
You know, you don't have to hate gays to be wary of having your 8 year old taught that they can switch genders any time they feel like it.

Wary, maybe.  But I would wager that even so-called traditional conservatives would recognize the cruelty of imposing gender norms on a child that doesn't fit those identities. 

As we argue over strawmen (eg. suggestion that we must impose surgeries and hormone therapy on children), let's not lose sight of the progress that all of us have made.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 21, 2018, 09:29:47 am
Sure. And just about every time some druggy or gang member gets killed in a shooting in Ottawa he has an Arab/African name, as does the guy arrested. The media doesn't 'hide' that, but they sure as hell don't make a point of mentioning it much either.

That's ridiculous.  What do you want them to say:

"Arrested for the crime was Ahmed Amood - an ARAB !! - at the scene."

Quote
It's not like you'll ever see a newspapers story or column that says something like "Gee, how come the majority of all our shootings involve Muslims?" Ain't gonna happen.

Why do you think that is ?

Quote
So Kimmy suggests its rednecks and yokels opposing sex ed. Why? Kimmy is pretty smart. But unless you follow the news carefully you don't know this stuff. Esp if you're not in Ontario. Like I said, the media aren't going to draw attention to it if they can avoid doing so.

I am trying to be objective and as such I don't know how much these things are mentioned.  Time for a google search:

https://www.google.ca/search?rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA785&ei=64-NWrE-iOWPBNX1i6gF&q=%2B%22ontario+sex-ed+curriculum%22+%2Bimmigrant+&oq=%2B%22ontario+sex-ed+curriculum%22+%2Bimmigrant+&gs_l=psy-ab.3...2314.2314.0.3144.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.7-c4aNF8Ajw

1 google hit in 1,000 mentions this factor.  But then again 'religious' doesn't fare much better.

As such, I concur that you are right.  People do not want to talk about this factor.  I would say that we can have the discussion without casting blame on immigrant groups as these are values shared by old-time Canadians also.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on February 21, 2018, 11:00:27 am
Old-time? Try the more eugenic term: old stock.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 21, 2018, 11:22:03 am
Why do you think that is ?

In all the media coverage of BLM and it's complaints, have you ever once seen, in a news story on any mainstream channel or newspaper, what would or should be an important statistic - that Blacks commit a hugely disproportionate share of violent crime? I mean, if you're talking about and repeating statistics about how many Blacks are killed by police shouldn't the fact Blacks commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime be included as an important data element? But it never is. The mainstream media falls almost entirely in-line with progressive groupthnk on such issues, and does not want to mention facts which might offend progressives or 'give encouragement' to racists.

So the racial component of crime is never brought up by the media except, rarely, by a conservative columnist in an opinion piece. Mentioning it offends progressives. But in dealing with Ottawa and Muslim crime it also brings up another progressive touchstone - immigration. Pointing out how many of our violent crimes are being committed by immigrants might give people pause to wonder if we should maybe change our immigration system - and the media don't want that sort of thought percolating out there among the great unwashed.

Likewise, the 'dissaproval' of homosexuality and the new progressive holy touchstone of transgenderism by immigrants is not to be discussed, for this would (to the progressive mind) mean discussion of the 'less enlightened' social values of immigrants.

Any subject which might tend to cause disapproval of a particular minority group will be downplayed or ignored. Who is doing the shooting in Toronto, in Vancouver? That's never mentioned either. It's almost always ethnic 'racially visible' gangs who are a byproduct of immigration.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: JMT on February 21, 2018, 07:58:17 pm
Because white people never do anything wrong, right?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 21, 2018, 08:06:12 pm
In all the media coverage of BLM and it's complaints, have you ever once seen, in a news story on any mainstream channel or newspaper, what would or should be an important statistic - that Blacks commit a hugely disproportionate share of violent crime? I mean, if you're talking about and repeating statistics about how many Blacks are killed by police shouldn't the fact Blacks commit a greatly disproportionate amount of crime be included as an important data element? But it never is. The mainstream media falls almost entirely in-line with progressive groupthnk on such issues, and does not want to mention facts which might offend progressives or 'give encouragement' to racists.

It's not an important element because blacks are killed at a much higher rates than whites.  Bringing up raw numbers confuses the issue and makes it seem relevant when it's not.

Quote
So the racial component of crime is never brought up by the media except, rarely, by a conservative columnist in an opinion piece. Mentioning it offends progressives. But in dealing with Ottawa and Muslim crime it also brings up another progressive touchstone - immigration. Pointing out how many of our violent crimes are being committed by immigrants might give people pause to wonder if we should maybe change our immigration system - and the media don't want that sort of thought percolating out there among the great unwashed.

I think it's more that they will think it's open season on Muslims. 

Quote
Likewise, the 'dissaproval' of homosexuality and the new progressive holy touchstone of transgenderism by immigrants is not to be discussed, for this would (to the progressive mind) mean discussion of the 'less enlightened' social values of immigrants.

But in what context does the news point out that immigrants don't support sex-ed ?  How is that supposed to be presented ?  They cover the sex-ed story and there are immigrants opposing it, what else would you expect ?  "Dateline Toronto - BLACK PEOPLE HATE SEX ED !"

Quote
Any subject which might tend to cause disapproval of a particular minority group will be downplayed or ignored. Who is doing the shooting in Toronto, in Vancouver? That's never mentioned either. It's almost always ethnic 'racially visible' gangs who are a byproduct of immigration.

Well, as I have pointed out the biggest city has the most immigrants and a relatively low crime rate.  You want to make immigrants into a problem, go ahead - this will do it. 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on February 21, 2018, 10:41:42 pm
But in what context does the news point out that immigrants don't support sex-ed ?  How is that supposed to be presented ?  They cover the sex-ed story and there are immigrants opposing it, what else would you expect ?  "Dateline Toronto - BLACK PEOPLE HATE SEX ED !"

 Last summer when we were talking about the BLM appropriation of Toronto Pride, I posted a column written by a gay black man who wrote that he was scared to go anywhere near Caribbana because of rampant homophobia in the Toronto Caribbean community. But people only talk about homophobia when it's emanating from white Christian rednecks. I feel like maybe SJ has a point here.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 21, 2018, 10:48:05 pm
  But people only talk about homophobia when it's emanating from white Christian rednecks. I feel like maybe SJ has a point here.
 

What "people" ?  Are there news stories where they just read stereotypes of a cue card that I don't get to watch ?

"in the news tonight, Christian rednecks are homophobes"
"in the news tonight, immigrants hate sex ed"

There's no obligation for the "news" to comment on popular prejudices either way.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: guest4 on February 22, 2018, 12:11:20 am
Last summer when we were talking about the BLM appropriation of Toronto Pride, I posted a column written by a gay black man who wrote that he was scared to go anywhere near Caribbana because of rampant homophobia in the Toronto Caribbean community. But people only talk about homophobia when it's emanating from white Christian rednecks. I feel like maybe SJ has a point here.

 -k

Clearly, people are talking about homophobia among brown people. You, SJ, the Black guy in your example, and no doubt many more Canadians around their kitchen table, on Facebook, or reddit or discussion forums. 

What you seem to expect is that news media go to extra lengths to point out specifically immigrant or "brown people" who are homophobic.  No doubt the Catholic Church would also like news media to focus on the homophobia of Baptists and the Baptists would like the focus to be on Protestants and the Protestants would like to focus to be on ... Well, you get the idea I'm sure. 

In regards to the Ontario sex education issue, I found several articles about different groups that opposed it.  The groups were Catholics, a pro-life group, another Christian group and a Muslim group.  To me, that seems to be pretty even handed reporting.   

If we've got people talking about homophobia among "brown people" and if the media is reporting on  groups that represent "brown people" and have the same opinions as White redneck Christians, what more do you want?   

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2018, 11:37:21 am
It's not an important element because blacks are killed at a much higher rates than whites.  Bringing up raw numbers confuses the issue and makes it seem relevant when it's not.

Of course it's relevant. Who are police going to shoot? Criminals! So if Blacks have a higher propensity to commit crime, especially violent crime, it naturally follows that they'll be more violent interactions with police. The narrative is this is about racism only because of the statistics, but if you take in Black crime statistics the evidence of racism disappears.

The three most outrageous police killings of unarmed people last year all involved White victims, not Black.

Quote
I think it's more that they will think it's open season on Muslims.

Is it their job to worry about that or should they simply be telling the facts?

Quote
But in what context does the news point out that immigrants don't support sex-ed ?

If you have an angry crowd scene of people screaming abuse about the sex-ed curriculum and it's obvious from the images that almost all are from western Asia and the Indian sub-continent I would think that ought to be relevant to the story, if for no other reason than to develop the idea of the Liberals' "cultural insensitivity" to the people involved.

Quote
Well, as I have pointed out the biggest city has the most immigrants and a relatively low crime rate.  You want to make immigrants into a problem, go ahead - this will do it.

Not talking about immigrants. Talking about the media and the way they massage the message in a progressive way which insults and arouses the suspicion of a lot of people who then begin to suspect the media is covering things up because of their ideology. BTW has the media ever pointed out that the highest crime areas in Canada appear to be those with high indigenous populations?

If you won't talk about something in public it can't be fixed.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 22, 2018, 11:45:20 am
So if Blacks have a higher propensity to commit crime, especially violent crime, it naturally follows that they'll be more violent interactions with police.

propensity

noun

    an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.


---

I won't say it, but I won't let you weasel out with that 'if' qualifier excuse. You made a clear targeted statement.



Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2018, 11:49:12 am
propensity

noun

    an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.


---

I won't say it, but I won't let you weasel out with that 'if' qualifier excuse. You made a clear targeted statement.

Blacks commit crime in a much higher proportion than their numbers in Canada, the US and the UK. Happy now? No qualifiers needed.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: JMT on February 22, 2018, 11:55:37 am
Blacks commit crime in a much higher proportion than their numbers in Canada, the US and the UK. Happy now? No qualifiers needed.

And why do you think that is?  Feel free to spit it out.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2018, 12:09:14 pm
And why do you think that is?  Feel free to spit it out.

Why would I have to spit anything out? I've written on the subject a number of times in the past. Spitting is for progressives who get furious whenever anyone says anything that challenges their thoughtless preconceptions.

There are a lot of socioeconomic reasons for Black crime and they differ somewhat from country to country. The bulk of the Black population in Canada comes from the Caribbean, and came in initially when the earlier Trudeau government allowed all the foreign nannies who had been working in Canada for years to become citizens. These were mostly women who had been forced to leave their children at home. Once they got citizenship they brought them to Canada. But those children were not happy. They had ties back home and none here. They barely knew their mothers, and had been largely raised by their grandmothers. They didn't have the same educational background as their Canadian age-mates. Resentful, they banded together, and as would be expected, started getting into trouble. These formed the genesis of the street gangs of today in central Canada. Somali youths coming here added to that.

In addition there is a very high rate of single parent families in the Black community and a lack of importance placed on education. The highest indication of poverty is being in a single parent family. It's also among the highest indications of propensity to commit crimes. Kids raised in poverty by a single parent (usually the mother) have a much higher likelihood to do poorly in school, drop out, and commit crimes.

Here's a noted American racist talking about the issue. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jun/23/barack-obama/statistics-dont-lie-in-this-case/
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 22, 2018, 12:22:14 pm
Of course it's relevant. Who are police going to shoot? Criminals! So if Blacks have a higher propensity to commit crime, especially violent crime, it naturally follows that they'll be more violent interactions with police. The narrative is this is about racism only because of the statistics, but if you take in Black crime statistics the evidence of racism disappears.

It doesn't.    My understanding is that the 'rate' of shooting of blacks is 3X that of whites.

 
Quote
If you have an angry crowd scene of people screaming abuse about the sex-ed curriculum and it's obvious from the images that almost all are from western Asia and the Indian sub-continent I would think that ought to be relevant to the story, if for no other reason than to develop the idea of the Liberals' "cultural insensitivity" to the people involved.

The question of 'cultural insensitivity' is only strange, or even remarkable to people who reject ideas such as reasonable accommodation and pluralism.  Why is the news showing images of Asia and India for an Ontario education story ?

Quote
Not talking about immigrants. Talking about the media and the way they massage the message in a progressive way which insults and arouses the suspicion of a lot of people who then begin to suspect the media is covering things up because of their ideology. BTW has the media ever pointed out that the highest crime areas in Canada appear to be those with high indigenous populations?

If you won't talk about something in public it can't be fixed.

"The" media is NOT going to bring up the topic of race/nationality/creed and its relation to crime .   By "The" media, of course, I mean television.  The Rebel will cover it intensively.  Is that enough coverage for you ?

If not, then why ?  What would you do to foster such a discussion ?  What would you expect other individuals and groups to do ?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 22, 2018, 04:24:21 pm
It doesn't.    My understanding is that the 'rate' of shooting of blacks is 3X that of whites.

There are a number of numbers going around. 2.5 is the basic number. But if Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be involved in violent crime than whites that renders the statistic meaningless.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

 
Quote
"The" media is NOT going to bring up the topic of race/nationality/creed and its relation to crime .   By "The" media, of course, I mean television.  The Rebel will cover it intensively.  Is that enough coverage for you ?

The Rebel is not the media, and despite your obsession with it, is not a site I visit.

Quote
If not, then why ?  What would you do to foster such a discussion ?  What would you expect other individuals and groups to do ?

To start with, it's obvious that the numbers of single mother families has a major impact on crime within the black population. People of influence within that community need to be enlisted to start pushing the idea that if you father a child you damned well have to FATHER it. I would also take away the drivers license of men who breed children and then ignore them and the mother. As to immigrant groups and crime, the answer is to address those depending on the crime and community involved, and if the community has been statistically noted for producing an unusual number of criminals STOP BRINGING IN MORE people from that community. Ie, Somalia, Jamaica, Haiti, for example.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 23, 2018, 06:16:29 am
There are a number of numbers going around. 2.5 is the basic number. But if Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be involved in violent crime than whites that renders the statistic meaningless.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

I agree, but that's not how I took it to mean.  Let's look into it.

 
Quote
The Rebel is not the media, and despite your obsession with it, is not a site I visit.

It's called 'Rebel Media' so I guess you ARE talking about television.  If we're talking about television (vs web) there are some attributes of TV that make it more centrist, and more left leaning than its media ancestors or descendants.

Quote
To start with, it's obvious that the numbers of single mother families has a major impact on crime within the black population. People of influence within that community need to be enlisted to start pushing the idea that if you father a child you damned well have to FATHER it. I would also take away the drivers license of men who breed children and then ignore them and the mother. As to immigrant groups and crime, the answer is to address those depending on the crime and community involved, and if the community has been statistically noted for producing an unusual number of criminals STOP BRINGING IN MORE people from that community. Ie, Somalia, Jamaica, Haiti, for example.
  But you're doing what is called in management "solutioning".

Many people would also "solution" white males to take sensitivity courses to solve their insensitivity to POC. 

The more I look at all these social issues, the more I realize that true objectivity - in methods, or language for example - is the secret ingredient to drive the discussion.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 23, 2018, 09:22:40 am
I agree, but that's not how I took it to mean.  Let's look into it.

Barring actual evidence of racism I take it that racism is not a primary factor. In a world where Justine Diamond can be shot in her pajamas outside her home without ever having said or done anything illegal or even been challenged by police no one should assume that racism is responsible for people who fight with police and resist arrest being killed.

 
Quote
It's called 'Rebel Media'

It's a small web site of little importance beyond it's ability to make leftists fume.


Quote
If we're talking about television (vs web) there are some attributes of TV that make it more centrist, and more left leaning than its media ancestors or descendants.

The mainstream newspapers are all pretty progressive in their social values and beliefs too.
 
Quote
But you're doing what is called in management "solutioning".

Yes, finding a solution to a problem is what humans do.

Quote
Many people would also "solution" white males to take sensitivity courses to solve their insensitivity to POC.

And many people would also 'solution' progressives to take anti-racism courses to solve their racism issues where they treat people differently based upon their skin pigmentation.

Quote
The more I look at all these social issues, the more I realize that true objectivity - in methods, or language for example - is the secret ingredient to drive the discussion.

You can be objective and still have a dumb idea.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 23, 2018, 09:49:38 am
 
It's a small web site of little importance beyond it's ability to make leftists fume.
 

I have to respond to everything here - however pls note that The Rebel has more viewers than "The National" on CBC.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 23, 2018, 08:56:30 pm
I have to respond to everything here - however pls note that The Rebel has more viewers than "The National" on CBC.

Seriously? And how would you even know that...? Viewers?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 24, 2018, 07:05:22 am
They have something like 850K subscribers.  More people than watch The National.

The thing about new media is it sneaks up on you.  I know I was surprised when I found out about these things.  Newspapers too.

This is why politics as we know it is changing.  People get their news from Facebook posts and CPE.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 25, 2018, 10:10:06 am
They have something like 850K subscribers.  More people than watch The National.

That's not saying much for the National - given how much we pay for the CBC.

But having 850k subscribers is not that big a deal. Want to see someone with almost eight MILLION subscribers? A figure which beats the hell out of all US news broadcasts from FOX to NBC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5t4YXu9V2I&index=100&list=PLa7SaB6RofYQJqrFPqniKN4LkYJSseg34&t=148s
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 25, 2018, 10:40:15 am
I have to respond to everything here - however pls note that The Rebel has more viewers than "The National" on CBC.

If you really want to compare then you need to look at who actually watches something. The Rebel gets about 230,000 story views a day. The National gets between 300,000 and 600,000 viewers for the second half of the program (ie. after about 5-6 stories). That puts the National about an order of magnitude above the Rebel.

If you want to really do a youtube viewship comparison, then compare Ezra Levant to Logan Paul. Paul Gets about 50 times the views of Levant, but they both appeal to morons.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 26, 2018, 08:18:04 am
Impact and SJ are comparing to international/American/topic specific sites which are apples-to-oranges IMO.

The National, as Impact says, gets more viewers however not 'order of magnitude'.  Also, it may be that subscribers are more engaged with one model or another.  And some subscribers may be more influential to policy than others - in fact I would bet on it.

In any case, there is a discussion happening - within media bubbles though.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 09:34:44 am
Impact and SJ are comparing to international/American/topic specific sites which are apples-to-oranges IMO.

I would be astonished, given the reach of the internet, and the American themed narrative of the Rebel, if a huge number of its viewers weren't American. I mean, why were they in Charlottetown to begin with? Because of that American themed pro-trump narrative.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 26, 2018, 10:08:54 am
I think a ton of them are Canadian.  There is no middle of the road conservative blog, I think.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 03:42:13 pm
I think a ton of them are Canadian.  There is no middle of the road conservative blog, I think.

No, there is no National Review or Spectator in Canada, more's the pity.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 27, 2018, 07:20:06 am
No, there is no National Review or Spectator in Canada, more's the pity.

There's an argument that television produced a generation of leaders that were well-presented on that medium, ie. Kennedy/Trudeau.  If you accept that premise, even for a second, then it means we need a new leader that thrives in the new environment.

Such a leader would be, to me:

- Collaborative
- Able to articulate ideas via a broad (band) vision, vs. televisions 5-second soundbytes, with supporting data
- Eschew previous left/right political branding to embrace pragmatism
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 27, 2018, 11:09:44 am
There's an argument that television produced a generation of leaders that were well-presented on that medium, ie. Kennedy/Trudeau.  If you accept that premise, even for a second, then it means we need a new leader that thrives in the new environment.

What new environment? The new environment of deeply biased internet media which often aren't all that careful with their facts? The Tinder environment where people swipe left or right depending on how pretty you are? The environment of style outweighing substance, where the superficial is so important no one ever delves deeper?

Quote
Such a leader would be, to me:

- Collaborative

Such people are boring and don't make for screaming headlines or cutesy pictures. See Trump, Donald, and Trudeau, Justin.

Quote
- Able to articulate ideas via a broad (band) vision, vs. televisions 5-second soundbytes, with supporting data
- Eschew previous left/right political branding to embrace pragmatism

Pragmatism is what you sometimes get once elected. See Harper as an example. Before then you get people trying to get attention by making noise, and you don't get that attention by being reasonable and pragmatic.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 27, 2018, 03:35:48 pm
What new environment? The new environment of deeply biased internet media which often aren't all that careful with their facts?

Yes, that's it.

Quote
The Tinder environment where people swipe left or right depending on how pretty you are? The environment of style outweighing substance, where the superficial is so important no one ever delves deeper?

Again, you know it well.

Quote
Such people are boring and don't make for screaming headlines or cutesy pictures. See Trump, Donald, and Trudeau, Justin.

Boring will be back in soon enough.

Quote
Pragmatism is what you sometimes get once elected. See Harper as an example. Before then you get people trying to get attention by making noise, and you don't get that attention by being reasonable and pragmatic.

Sometimes... :D
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 28, 2018, 01:25:40 pm
Hey if an attractive child of a former PM with little to no experience can be PM, then I guess one can be Ontario Premiere.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2018, 03:23:48 pm
Hey if an attractive child of a former PM with little to no experience can be PM, then I guess one can be Ontario Premiere.

6 years, and two general elections were his qualifications for leadership (plus another election and couple of years for Prime Minister). What does Mulroney have?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 03:30:13 pm
6 years, and two general elections were his qualifications for leadership (plus another election and couple of years for Prime Minister). What does Mulroney have?

Twenty years of real life working at responsible financial jobs.

vs what, 2 years a drama teacher?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2018, 03:33:24 pm
2 years a drama teacher?

Ah yes, the old drama teacher argument. I guess when you have nothing, you have nothing.

At least you are aware that Mulroney has almost zero political experience. I think she is highly qualified to serve as an MPP and in a few years she may be a great candidate for leader. I am pointing out reality, you are pointing out nothing.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 03:37:10 pm
Ah yes, the old drama teacher argument. I guess when you have nothing, you have nothing.


Which was exactly what his qualifications were to be leader.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2018, 03:47:12 pm
Which was exactly what his qualifications were to be leader.

When you are on a roundabout, eventually you need to take an exit.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on February 28, 2018, 04:28:39 pm
I saw an article saying Mulroney has raised 700k and ass-u-me'd she had a good shot. But new polling only has her at 20%.

Seems this is Dofo v Elliot.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on February 28, 2018, 05:49:12 pm
Please post this depressing new poll you speak of :(
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on February 28, 2018, 07:27:50 pm
Anyone who would tout Harper as a good candidate a the time because of his experience and slag Trudeau is a complete hypocrite.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2018, 08:26:11 pm
Anyone who would tout Harper as a good candidate a the time because of his experience and slag Trudeau is a complete hypocrite.

Of course. He was handed a job in the mailroom for an oil company in Calgary. That's supposed to be a better qualification than being a teacher?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 01, 2018, 08:14:13 am
Please post this depressing new poll you speak of :(

https://globalnews.ca/news/4052336/doug-ford-christine-elliott-poll/


Quote
Toronto businessman and former city councillor Doug Ford would have a slim lead over Christine Elliott for the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party leadership if the election were held today, according to a poll provided to Global News.

The Mainstreet Research poll was conducted between Feb. 21 and 26 among a sample of 17,399 Ontario PC party members. They were asked to rank their top three choices for party leader. The survey found that 36.7 per cent of decided voters would support Ford.

This poll apparently actually had Patrick Brown with a slim lead. But he's not in the race, so we don't know where his support will go.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2018, 09:01:26 am
Of course. He was handed a job in the mailroom for an oil company in Calgary. That's supposed to be a better qualification than being a teacher?

Harper was also a robot.  He probably had the knowledge of the entire internet and wikipedia inside his hard drive. Too bad he was programmed to be a bit of a douche, then caught a super-douche virus somewhere along the line.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2018, 09:22:22 am
It's not an important element because blacks are killed at a much higher rates than whites.  Bringing up raw numbers confuses the issue and makes it seem relevant when it's not.

What stats are you using?  Blacks in the US commit about 50% of crime and violent crime, but make up only 13% of the population.  The large majority of that is by men, so 6% of the pop commits about 40+% of all violent crime.  Yet blacks account for only about 26-28% of police shooting victims, whites about 50-55%.

Quote
In fact, as of July 9, whites were 54 percent of the 440 police shooting victims this year whose race was known, blacks were 28 percent and Hispanics were 18 percent, according to The Washington Post’s ongoing database of fatal police shootings. Those ratios are similar to last year’s tally, in which whites made up 50 percent of the 987 fatal police shootings, and blacks, 26 percent. (The vast majority of those police homicide victims were armed or otherwise threatening the officer.)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/18/police-shootings-and-race/?utm_term=.557f44049778

Yes on occasion a crappy officer makes a bad decisions and even racist ones, but the narratives not based on facts need to stop, and the elephant in the room needs to be addressed:

Quote
In America’s 75 largest counties, comprising most of the nation’s population, blacks constituted 62 percent of all robbery defendants in 2009, 57 percent of all murder defendants, and 45 percent of all assault defendants — but roughly 15 percent of the population in those counties. In New York, where blacks make up 23 percent of the city’s population, blacks commit three-quarters of all shootings and 70 percent of all robberies, according to victims and witnesses. (Whites, by contrast, commit less than 2 percent of all shootings in New York City and 4 percent of all robberies, though they are nearly 34 percent of the population.)

New York City’s crime disparities are repeated in virtually all American metropolises. They will determine where officers are most often called to a drive-by shooting or an armed robbery, and where officers are most likely to face violent and resisting criminals — encounters which can lead to officers’ own use of deadly force. Police critics have never answered the question of what they think non-biased policing data should look like, in light of the vast differences in rates of criminal offending. Blacks commit homicide at nearly eight times the rate of whites and Hispanics combined. Black males between the ages of 14 and 17 commit gun homicide at nearly 10 times the rate of white and Hispanic male teens combined.
...
In 2015, the police fatally shot 36 unarmed black males, according to The Washington Post’s typology, and 31 unarmed white males. The Post’s classification of victims as “unarmed” is literally accurate but sometimes misleading. The label can fail to convey the charged situation facing the officer who used deadly force.

At least five “unarmed” black victims had tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. One had the officer on the ground and was beating him on the head so violently, breaking bones and causing other injuries, as to risk the officer’s loss of consciousness.  At least five “unarmed” black victims had tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. One had the officer on the ground and was beating him on the head so violently, breaking bones and causing other injuries, as to risk the officer’s loss of consciousness.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 01, 2018, 09:22:51 am
https://globalnews.ca/news/4052336/doug-ford-christine-elliott-poll/


This poll apparently actually had Patrick Brown with a slim lead. But he's not in the race, so we don't know where his support will go.

That sounds pretty dodgy... Brown had been well behind in the polls I had seen, just ahead of Anal Sex Lady.

It does seem like the **** vote has all consolidated around Ford while the normal people vote is being split right now.  If this is a single vote type dealie, then maybe Ford would win, but if they do a knockout-system like most leadership campaigns, I would think that votes split between Mulroney and Elliot would combine around one or the other to beat Ford.

It would be entertaining to have have more Ford shenanigans in the news. Ford NayyySHUN! Yah-Yah-YAAAAAAA! FORD NAYSHUNNN!  But Ontario is too important to Canada as a whole to have more shoddy leadership.  Hopefully somebody competent wins the PC race, defeats Wynne, and restores sane leadership to Canada's largest province.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2018, 09:25:25 am
Watched some of yesterdays debate.  That Tanya Granic Allen is one savage mofo, a little bit too angry all the time with every question wtf.

Ford did surprisingly well since I despise the man.  The other 2 did decent too.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 01, 2018, 02:20:18 pm
Anyone who would tout Harper as a good candidate a the time because of his experience and slag Trudeau is a complete hypocrite.

Who did that?
Why is Harper even in this topic anyway?

However, Harper was a lot smarter than Trudeau, better educated, more knowledgeable about political maneuvering, more experienced at organizing, and did not get his job merely because of daddy's name and good hair.

If Trudeau looked like Harper and had some other name we'd never have even heard of him.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: msj on March 01, 2018, 02:48:42 pm
Who did that?
Why is Harper even in this topic anyway?

However, Harper was a lot smarter than Trudeau, better educated, more knowledgeable about political maneuvering, more experienced at organizing, and did not get his job merely because of daddy's name and good hair.

If Trudeau looked like Harper and had some other name we'd never have even heard of him.

Is there a way to block this guy somehow?

Seriously, this post is so childish....
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2018, 03:32:21 pm
Who did that?
Why is Harper even in this topic anyway?

However, Harper was a lot smarter than Trudeau, better educated, more knowledgeable about political maneuvering, more experienced at organizing, and did not get his job merely because of daddy's name and good hair.

If Trudeau looked like Harper and had some other name we'd never have even heard of him.

Both men got their government jobs because the people of Canada voted for them. Harper got his first job because his uncle George managed to get him into the mail room at Imperial Oil.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 01, 2018, 04:10:45 pm
Both men got their government jobs because the people of Canada voted for them. Harper got his first job because his uncle George managed to get him into the mail room at Imperial Oil.

Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. He did a lot of things in the world of politics prior to becoming PM, including negotiating  the merger of the Alliance the PCs.
Which still has nothing to do with this topic. Harper is not, to my knowledge, running in the provincial election.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2018, 04:26:51 pm
Which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. He did a lot of things in the world of politics prior to becoming PM, including negotiating  the merger of the Alliance the PCs.
Which still has nothing to do with this topic. Harper is not, to my knowledge, running in the provincial election.

I didn't bring Harper into the discussion. Just responding to YOUR post.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 01, 2018, 04:37:10 pm
I didn't bring Harper into the discussion. Just responding to YOUR post.

I did not bring him up except as a reference to how politicians often become more pragmatic after they get in office than before.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 01, 2018, 05:01:21 pm
What stats are you using?  Blacks in the US commit about 50% of crime and violent crime, but make up only 13% of the population.  The large majority of that is by men, so 6% of the pop commits about 40+% of all violent crime.  Yet blacks account for only about 26-28% of police shooting victims, whites about 50-55%.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/18/police-shootings-and-race/?utm_term=.557f44049778

Yes on occasion a crappy officer makes a bad decisions and even racist ones, but the narratives not based on facts need to stop, and the elephant in the room needs to be addressed:

But you're not supposed to look at those stats, and you're certainly not supposed to pay any attention to them if you accidentally come across them. It goes against the prevailing narrative of the poor helpless minority and the evil nasty racist white folks who are just gunning them down for fun. And if you do notice them you're supposed to point out how it's all the white man's fault anyway because of racism keeping the poor Black man down and preventing him from getting jobs. You're certainly not supposed to bring up things like African immigrants earning, by and large, 30% more than native born Black Americans and wonder why that is. No, whatever goes wrong it's the white man's fault. And if you think otherwise, why then you must be a racist.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2018, 09:28:20 pm
But you're not supposed to look at those stats, and you're certainly not supposed to pay any attention to them if you accidentally come across them. It goes against the prevailing narrative of the poor helpless minority and the evil nasty racist white folks who are just gunning them down for fun. And if you do notice them you're supposed to point out how it's all the white man's fault anyway because of racism keeping the poor Black man down and preventing him from getting jobs. You're certainly not supposed to bring up things like African immigrants earning, by and large, 30% more than native born Black Americans and wonder why that is. No, whatever goes wrong it's the white man's fault. And if you think otherwise, why then you must be a racist.

It's more satisfying to blame an oppressor than to admit any fault in the victim/oneself, though many white people especially in US certainly have some blame to factor in especially further back in the past when racism was far more rampant & slavery/jim crow existed & those legacies have generational effects.

But you also have to factor in personal responsibility.  ie: Single motherhood in the black community has skyrocketed since the 60's civil rights era (leading to more poverty & young men without role models etc) and white people aren't forcing black people to have unprotected sex out of wedlock. 

There's a lot of immigrants from Africa who don't do well in US/Canada either & commit crime and they were never enslaved.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2018, 09:30:57 pm
anybody actually watch any of the 2nd PC debate?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 07, 2018, 01:04:14 pm
Colobus Monkey 2018!!!

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/03/07/ontario-finance-minister-to-table-pre-election-budget-that-returns-ontario-to-deficit.html

Back to Deficit!

Patrick Brown's budget assumed a deficit, because he knew the Liberals were lying.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 07, 2018, 04:22:53 pm
Colobus Monkey 2018!!!

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/03/07/ontario-finance-minister-to-table-pre-election-budget-that-returns-ontario-to-deficit.html

Back to Deficit!

Patrick Brown's budget assumed a deficit, because he knew the Liberals were lying.

Ontario was never out of deficit. The claim to the contrary was a lie. They borrowed massively this year and last year. They're simply playing accounting games to hide it.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Rue on March 10, 2018, 11:55:53 am
Well it definitely looks like the election was rigged to shut out Mulroney slipping up the middle with a split between Elliot and Ford as a compromise neutral pick and that is too bad. Looks like the Vic Fideli camp had enough clout to fix the election and "lose" the many ballots not to mention discourage and prevent PC members from voting. This is a rigged dirty vote. I think Elliot was the principle party in leaking the anti Brown story to oust him. I think her accepting a plumb liberal patronage appointment as Ombudsman for Patients and then running back to the Tory party is the utmost in political whoring.

My prediction is Mulroney will flip over to federal politics for the next fed  election and will be given a cabinet post provincially if Elliot wins but not in finance-I think Fideli has that one all lined up.

I do think Elliot is just another Wynne albeit she is in a party that will not be the same as Wynne's but there is little difference in their politics other than their patronage appointment lists.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 10, 2018, 02:16:24 pm
Well it definitely looks like the election was rigged to shut out Mulroney slipping up the middle with a split between Elliot and Ford as a compromise neutral pick and that is too bad. Looks like the Vic Fideli camp had enough clout to fix the election and "lose" the many ballots not to mention discourage and prevent PC members from voting. This is a rigged dirty vote.

Don't ascribe to malice what is most likely incompetence. When you run something this quickly, with a new kind of voting, there are bound to be problems. Elliot was the most obvious candidate. Mulroney did just okay in the debates and discussions. She has potential but didn't awe anyone, and everybody seems to think she needs some seasoning. And it looks like a 'reasonable' candidate is a shoe-in vs Wynne, vs a loose cannon like Ford. I'd vote for Elliot myself I was a member. I want Wynne gone.

Yes, Elliot is further to the left than I or a lot of PCs would like, that's why she lost the last couple of times. But she'll be better than Wynne, and her party will hold her to a better fiscal policy framework. Hopefully they can begin to cut back on the size of the public service and the unnecessary spending programs. Mirroring the ban on campaign donations by anyone but individuals, as in the federal system, would be good too.

 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 10, 2018, 05:09:56 pm
Way too funny, it looks like Ford is going to be the next OPC leader to lose to the Liberal - yet again.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2018, 07:29:23 pm
I had to look it up because I thought you were joking....you’re not joking.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2018, 07:36:30 pm
Not so fast. Recount, you won't know till tomorrow.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 10, 2018, 07:59:52 pm
Not so fast. Recount, you won't know till tomorrow.

The Star is saying one is leading the popular vote and the other taking the most riding points. I guess the "Electoral College" will decide.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 11, 2018, 08:22:41 am
Let's see ... the predictions of "Right wing populism is not going to succeed ... we are not THAT crazy..." resulted in:

Rob Ford victory
Brexit victory
Trump victory

By the time the 2016 US election came up my friends were shocked that I was not 100% sure Hillary Clinton would win.  "Why not ?".  The answer, to me, was that pollsters are not reliable in predicting populist wins.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 11, 2018, 08:24:38 am
Note that Clinton's approach of shaming the electorate will not work and if Wynne has any mojo at all she will not go there.  She already has the moral leftist vote.

She needs to (believe it or not) tout economic factors, such as low unemployment, stability, ability to keep free trade going.  She needs to outright LIE about her record to scare off moderates for voting for him.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2018, 08:56:56 am
Note that Clinton's approach of shaming the electorate will not work

So you are saying that Ontario has as many shameless deplorables as the US?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 11, 2018, 09:02:39 am
So you are saying that Ontario has as many shameless deplorables as the US?

We have a 'public'.  Calling them names isn't a great strategy.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2018, 09:07:54 am
We have a 'public'.  Calling them names isn't a great strategy.

So far we don't have a public expressing their view, only 60+ thousand party members.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 11, 2018, 09:32:04 am
So far we don't have a public expressing their view, only 60+ thousand party members.

That IS a public, however your point is taken: they can see how DoFo flies with the wider public first.  I suspect he will poll well, and at that point hectoring average people for choosing him comes off badly as we have seen.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 11, 2018, 10:36:06 am
So for those of us outside Ontario, it seems like the Fords are basically just fatter, dumber, less wealthy versions of Trump. Is that a fair comparison?

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2018, 10:50:09 am
Trump is the follower here. Rob Ford led the way for going through [political] life as fat, drunk, and stupid*.

*ref: Dean Wormer.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 11, 2018, 10:58:25 am
Trump is the follower here. Rob Ford led the way for going through [political] life as fat, drunk, and stupid*.

*ref: Dean Wormer.

My friend knew that guy - a great Canadian actor John Vernon.  In 'Face-Off' (Canadian version) he played a demented psycho Leafs coach, no fooling.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 11, 2018, 11:34:15 am
So for those of us outside Ontario, it seems like the Fords are basically just fatter, dumber, less wealthy versions of Trump. Is that a fair comparison?

 -k

Not entirely. Ford seems a little brighter and less petulant than Trump and less given to bragging, is much less of a narcissist, and doesn't seem interested in inciting or exploiting racial divisions. And his populism seems a lot more real than Trump's. Ford says what's on his mind and doesn't dance around questions. I don't think Trump believes in half the **** he says, and when he talks about his concern for 'regular people' that's so much bullshit since he doesn't even know any regular people (nor wants to). Ford's concern is much more real. He actually IS a guy who would be happy sitting down at some backhole tavern, having a beer and shooting the **** with truckers or construction guys.

But he's also kinda dumb, doesn't know much about government, speaks in broad populist terms, is thin skinned and short tempered. The fact he doesn't run everything he says through a team of spin-doctors makes him more real, but it also leaves him open to shoving both feet into his mouth. He is NOT an idea guy. The ideas will have to come from somewhere else.

Then again, I don't think Wynne and McGuinty ever had an idea on their own either, and botched just about every freaking file from highways and bridges to health care, the environment, electricity and business. And they reek of corruption and that puerile smug progressive elitism that looks down on everyone else.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 11, 2018, 11:40:09 am
It seems like all these guys are just playing a character based on Ralph Klein.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 11, 2018, 10:43:05 pm
Get ready for another Liberal term Ontario....   The PC Party members really blew this one. 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 11, 2018, 10:55:52 pm
Get ready for another Liberal term Ontario....   The PC Party members really blew this one.
Do not underestimate Ford.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2018, 11:23:42 pm
This is the best the PC party could find for itself?  Doug freaking Ford?  Watching the debate, he didn't seem to much about anything, pretty vague opinions on policy.  I don't understand the appeal of the Fords.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 12, 2018, 07:18:20 am
Ford will win seats in Toronto that other PC candidates probably couldn't have brought home.

Liberals will have to come up with actual concrete critiques of Ford. He's not a drug addict like his brother was. He's also not a racist.

Sure he's brash. But perhaps he'll bring the far right of the party and the more moderate wing, that can't seem to win leadership contests together.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 09:22:17 am
The Liberals will lose if they focus their criticisms on Ford himself. Mark my words. They will need to criticize PC policy and not get into a pissing match about whomtheir leader is.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2018, 09:24:49 am
Liberals will have to come up with actual concrete critiques of Ford. He's not a drug addict like his brother was. He's also not a racist.

No he is not a drug addict, but he is a former drug dealer... and not some kid selling a joint or two to friends he was a mid-level drug dealer supplying hashish to many through others. He is also a failing human being, willing to destroy others with lies in order to get his way. Listen to the crap radio show he used to co-host with Rob, he was a scumbag so bad the the rabid right-wing radio station finally had to pull him off the air.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 12, 2018, 09:38:05 am
And Kathleen Wynne isn't a scumbag?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 09:47:19 am
Let's see ... the predictions of "Right wing populism is not going to succeed ... we are not THAT crazy..." resulted in:

Rob Ford victory
Brexit victory
Trump victory

You forgot the recent Italy election won by rightwing populists.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 09:53:32 am
The time is perfect for him too. He doesn’t have to stand for anything of substance, which he doesn’t anyway. All he has to do is be anti-Wynne. He’s good at that.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 12, 2018, 09:55:31 am
This circus of a party can’t even run their own internal affairs and people are going to trust Doug Ford and the circus to govern the largest province?   LOL    Pass the popcorn....    :P
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 12, 2018, 10:04:27 am
The PCs already have a decent platform. Stick to that, and the election will be won.

If Wynne plays the deplorable cards, it'll be a mistake.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 10:04:48 am
So far we don't have a public expressing their view, only 60+ thousand party members.

The neo-nazis and KKK didn't elect Trump, because they don't make up anywhere close the # of votes Trump needed to win.  Trump won and Brexit won and the Italian rightwing populists won because a lot of people are fed up, people who can't voice their real opinions because, right or wrong, they'll be called racists and xenophobes. 

And yet if you look at the media, you'd think the vast majority of the population thinks and has always thought Trump is Satan, but that's clearly not quite accurate, he beat Hillary.  Clearly what the MSM thinks (Hollywood, New York City, other liberal urban centers and the arts, and the young folks who dominate twitter & facebook) isn't representative of what the actual populace thinks.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 12, 2018, 10:06:47 am
The neo-nazis and KKK didn't elect Trump, because they don't make up anywhere close the # of votes Trump needed to win.  Trump won and Brexit won and the Italian rightwing populists won because a lot of people are fed up, people who can't voice their real opinions because, right or wrong, they'll be called racists and xenophobes. 

And yet if you look at the media, you'd think the vast majority of the population thinks and has always thought Trump is Satan, but that's clearly not quite accurate, he beat Hillary.  Clearly what the MSM thinks (Hollywood, New York City, other liberal urban centers and the arts, and the young folks who dominate twitter & facebook) isn't representative of what the actual populace thinks.

And Trudeau won the election in Canada...   Canada doesn’t always go the way of the USA, or other places.   Let’s wait for an election to happen before you give the Province to the alt-right.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 10:15:24 am
The time is perfect for him too. He doesn’t have to stand for anything of substance, which he doesn’t anyway. All he has to do is be anti-Wynne. He’s good at that.

This is the easiest election for anyone to win, he really has to screw up to lose, he has to really out-do Hudak.  It's pretty amazing how stupid Ontario voters are.  Wynne somehow got a majority last election, so they got what their stupidity deserves, and everyone else has to pay for it.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 10:21:48 am
And Trudeau won the election in Canada...   Canada doesn’t always go the way of the USA, or other places.   Let’s wait for an election to happen before you give the Province to the alt-right.

Trudeau winning was as much about anti-Harper votes as pro-Trudeau.  I'm not saying ON is going to go alt-right, I'm saying these rightwing populist movements have more appeal than it appears on the surface.  I mean Rob Ford won Toronto and Doug now the PC leadership, it baffles me but people seem to like these guys better than most.

A lot of visible minorities seem to like the Ford's too, so it's not a race/culture thing as much as it is for Trump, it's populism.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 10:58:10 am
This circus of a party can’t even run their own internal affairs and people are going to trust Doug Ford and the circus to govern the largest province?   LOL    Pass the popcorn....    :P
The largest city in the country, which is even largely proportionately within Ontario, elected the far worse of the Fords as its mayor. I'm not kidding when I say don't underestimate Doug Ford. He's far more calculated than Rob ever was, which makes him far more dangerous because he might actually get **** done. Doug Ford doesn't go off on meth benders.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 11:00:35 am
Wynne somehow got a majority last election, so they got what their stupidity deserves, and everyone else has to pay for it.
Wynne's not even remotely as bad as you and conservatives in Ontario think she is. The hysterical hyperbole from the conservative blogosphere isn't going to play with others either.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 12:05:51 pm
Wynne's not even remotely as bad as you and conservatives in Ontario think she is. The hysterical hyperbole from the conservative blogosphere isn't going to play with others either.

She's pretty bad, the party is rotten.  Liberal voters think so too, overall 20% approval rating, up from 12% a year ago before she started bribing voters with their own tax money.  At some point you have to stop rewarding gross incompetence.  Unfortunately this Ford oaf has been put forward as the viable alternative.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 12, 2018, 12:06:54 pm
Wynne's not even remotely as bad as you and conservatives in Ontario think she is. The hysterical hyperbole from the conservative blogosphere isn't going to play with others either.

That party is Corrupt AF.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 12:10:31 pm
That party is Corrupt AF.
You think the PCs are clean as a whistle? Or even the NDP for that matter? Give me a god damned break. Especially Doug Ford.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 12, 2018, 12:14:54 pm
You think the PCs are clean as a whistle? Or even the NDP for that matter? Give me a god damned break. Especially Doug Ford.

They haven't been in power. I don't believe Rob or Doug got dogged with corruption. There was some controversy surrounding how he used staff regarding coaching football. But no corruption to the level of the Ontario Liberals.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2018, 12:17:28 pm
I don't believe Rob or Doug got dogged with corruption.

Then you didn't pay attention. Doug was caught twice scamming city hall by sending business to customers of his own company Deco labels.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 12, 2018, 12:27:58 pm
You forgot the recent Italy election won by rightwing populists.

You forgot the Austrian election recently. Guess who won that one?

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.  - David Frum
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Rue on March 12, 2018, 12:57:19 pm
I thought for sure this was rigged. I could not imagine Ford having sufficient votes.  It seems Ms. Mulroney was just not on the radar. 17% is a dismal showing.
I thought she was the best bet having no baggage going into an election and therefore able to unite people.
Clearly the PC's did not want her.  Elliot had too much baggage from all her losses and stabbing Brown in the back and accepting a Liberal patronage appointment.

As much as I hate Ford it appears he was the one they wanted. I think he is the most alienating and most likely of all the PC's to drive the moderate Tories and blue Liberals back to Wynne.

I think he is a pathetic  version of Trump. I find him ignorant, shallow and a bafoon.  That said I think putting Wynne  back in is even worse so I might hold my nose and vote for the PC
candidate in my riding and not Ford. I just can't see a sane person voting for Wynne.

Its too bad Mulroney could have won the vote. I guess they saw her asa  too rich privieleged outsider.

Ford is a thug. His business acumen as he poses it comes from selling drugs when he was in high school and working for Daddy.

I think Wynne will win as Ford alienates people and then Wynne continues to absorb the NDP  vote. At this juncture there is no difference between Liberal and NDP provincially in Ontario other than their leaders.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2018, 01:01:19 pm
so I might hold my nose and vote for the PC
candidate in my riding and not Ford. I just can't see a sane person voting for Wynne.

Why not consider NDP, Green, or anything else? That is the problem with Canadian politics, we only want red or blue and then we get stuck with continual corruption (yes, Ford is even more corrupt than Wynne).
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: waldo on March 12, 2018, 01:07:44 pm
You forgot the Austrian election recently. Guess who won that one?

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.  - David Frum

the context of the Frum statement: "The liberal scorn for nationhood and refusal to adapt immigration policy to changing circumstances enables the rise of extremism in the West."

Quote
It’s understandable why people in the poor world would seek to relocate. It’s predictable that people in the destination nations would resist. Interpreting these indelible conflicts through the absurdly inapt analogy of German and Austrian Jews literally fleeing for their lives will lead to systematically erroneous conclusions.

We need a new paradigm for a new time. The social trust and social cohesion that characterize an advanced society like the United States are slowly built and vulnerable to erosion. They are eroding. Trump is more the symptom of that erosion than the cause.

Trump’s executive order has unleashed chaos, harmed lawful U.S. residents, and alienated potential friends in the Islamic world. Yet without the dreamy liberal refusal to recognize the reality of nationhood, the meaning of citizenship, and the differences between cultures, Trump would never have gained the power to issue that order.

Liberalism and nationhood grew up together in the 19th century, mutually dependent. In the 21st century, they have grown apart—or more exactly, liberalism has recoiled from nationhood. The result has not been to abolish nationality, but to discredit liberalism.

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do. This weekend’s shameful chapter in the history of the United States is a reproach not only to Trump, although it is that too, but to the political culture that enabled him. Angela Merkel and Donald Trump may be temperamental opposites. They are also functional allies

Argus, just what are you advocating here?  ;D
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 01:38:09 pm
I think Wynne will win as Ford alienates people
Wynne also alienates people, as the insane ramblings of trolls on Facebook demonstrate. So then what? When both camps are alienating people, who wins? People are tired of Wynne. Those who would otherwise support the Liberals and can't stand Ford, probably just won't turn out to vote. Ford will excite people who thought that their views would never be represented in Queen's Park. So on one hand you have Liberals staying home, on the other you have Ford bringing people who otherwise think their vote doesn't matter.

I think people are really underestimating the chance Doug Ford has here.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 01:55:43 pm
Why not consider NDP, Green, or anything else? That is the problem with Canadian politics, we only want red or blue and then we get stuck with continual corruption (yes, Ford is even more corrupt than Wynne).
The problem with politics everywhere is that people have no class consciousness and consistently vote against their interest. If you're not corporate executive, there's absolutely zero reason to vote for the GOP in the United States. If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers. Parties want to convince people that they're everything to everyone, when in reality they're the intellectual arm of social classes put into practice. They're a means for controlling the state apparatus, which is always put to use for class interests. The kleptocrats who run corporations and the wealthy know this. That's why they never vote for anything other than Conservative parties, who will cut their taxes at the expense of those who are poor, lower income, or who work for wages to survive. Conservatives try to appeal to those they hurt by insisting that they offer something to these classes through populist nonsense about immigrants, false promises about "creating jobs," and bullshit shell-game illusions about "trickle-down" economics. If they can keep the mass of people in the working-class from looking at how the economic system exploits them by having them focus instead on emotionally charged issues, they can continue to have them vote against their material interests without actually having to deliver on anything that will materially benefit them. But hey, they'll feel good because "**** Muslims."
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2018, 04:36:24 pm
The problem with politics everywhere is that people have no class consciousness and consistently vote against their interest. If you're not corporate executive, there's absolutely zero reason to vote for the GOP in the United States. If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers. Parties want to convince people that they're everything to everyone, when in reality they're the intellectual arm of social classes put into practice. They're a means for controlling the state apparatus, which is always put to use for class interests.

I used to think this.  I think your argument shows a misunderstanding on how the value system of the average middle-income conservative works.  There's reasons they believe what they believe and "vote against their interests".  I think you're looking too much through a class lens.  Also, voters use the state to further their own goals, which isn't necessarily self-interested.  ie: Progressives want to help marginalized groups, which they usually aren't a part of.

Quote
The kleptocrats who run corporations and the wealthy know this. That's why they never vote for anything other than Conservative parties, who will cut their taxes at the expense of those who are poor, lower income, or who work for wages to survive. Conservatives try to appeal to those they hurt by insisting that they offer something to these classes through populist nonsense about immigrants, false promises about "creating jobs," and bullshit shell-game illusions about "trickle-down" economics. If they can keep the mass of people in the working-class from looking at how the economic system exploits them by having them focus instead on emotionally charged issues, they can continue to have them vote against their material interests without actually having to deliver on anything that will materially benefit them. But hey, they'll feel good because "**** Muslims."

Well this is quite the conspiracy theory.  Some may take part in it as you state, but I think a lot of the rich actually believe what they push.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 12, 2018, 04:50:41 pm
If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers.

By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.

Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: TimG on March 12, 2018, 04:54:49 pm
I used to think this.  I think your argument shows a misunderstanding on how the value system of the average middle-income conservative works.  There's reasons they believe what they believe and "vote against their interests".
What is also missed is most conservatives understand that business is not evil and having a society where businesses can expand is good for everyone. IOW, they are voting for their self interest it is just they define their self interest in ways that the left cannot comprehend.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2018, 04:57:50 pm
By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.

Oh, so I see you've had an attitude change. It used to be all the immigrants that came here didn't go to work. What changed your mind? 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2018, 05:52:31 pm
Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men.

Dude, you gotta get off that stuff it turns your mind to jelly.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 05:57:47 pm
By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.
If you have a job where you make money for someone else, you would be better off destroying the entire system so you can regain your humanity. But I’m not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2018, 05:59:31 pm
Dude, you gotta get off that stuff it turns your mind to jelly.
Argus seems to think the interests of the people he listed are mutually exclusive from heterosexual white men. That explains a lot about why he’s always fighting against them.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 12, 2018, 06:18:26 pm
If you have a job where you make money for someone else, you would be better off destroying the entire system so you can regain your humanity. But I’m not holding my breath.

I make money for me - and the government. And yes, a big corporation also profits from what I do. But there's no real way around that.

Destroying systems leads to bad stuff.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 12, 2018, 06:28:36 pm
Argus seems to think the interests of the people he listed are mutually exclusive from heterosexual white men. That explains a lot about why he’s always fighting against them.

The way the Liberals and NDP do it they ARE mutually exclusive.

If you're going to insist that people be hired and promoted and given contracts on the basis of their membership in an identity group then that clearly is at the expense of white people. Just as if you're going to insist that women be hired because of their gender that is against the interests of men. There are only so many jobs out there, after all. If you're going to take money away from me in order to help women and various 'racialized' groups than that's clearly not in my interests either. Particularly when you increase my taxes to do so. It's also very much NOT in my interest to vote for parties which believe 'fairness' means taking making me poorer and making poor people richer.

By the way, I would dispute that most of what the Left does actually helps any of those groups. The Left have been 'helping' natives for decades, and see all the great things that have come from that.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Rue on March 16, 2018, 09:31:30 am
Why not consider NDP, Green, or anything else? That is the problem with Canadian politics, we only want red or blue and then we get stuck with continual corruption (yes, Ford is even more corrupt than Wynne).

With due respect would you really vote for the provincial NDP's at this point? Does anyone even know what they stand for? Sorry I don't see how an NDP Party would help. In fact I am not sure if there is any difference at all between their platform and the Liberal platform and my no.1 concern is the debt this province is spending next generations into.

The Green Party again with due respect is a fringe party. Its a one  trick pony. Its policies on the economy are often hodge podge plagiarizations of American Libertarian laissez fair principles in regards to market control which then contradict their belief that we need extensive market regulations when it comes to protecting the environment.

I am what you criticize and you do it fairly. Its true. I head to the middle when I vote seeking no extreme views and you are right I end up voting in continual corruption but is that just particular to Tories and Liberals. are you saying the system itself is not corrupt just the particular political parties.

If you could show me a way to  vote for someone who wants to deal with corruption please share. At this point I don't want to waste my vote out of principle since I think its a privilege many take for granted and soldiers died for so we could have. I cherish that vote. I kid you not I would love to vote for someone honest. It would make a difference to me. You tell me who that is these days.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Rue on March 16, 2018, 09:43:15 am
Wynne also alienates people, as the insane ramblings of trolls on Facebook demonstrate. So then what? When both camps are alienating people, who wins? People are tired of Wynne. Those who would otherwise support the Liberals and can't stand Ford, probably just won't turn out to vote. Ford will excite people who thought that their views would never be represented in Queen's Park. So on one hand you have Liberals staying home, on the other you have Ford bringing people who otherwise think their vote doesn't matter.

I think people are really underestimating the chance Doug Ford has here.

That is an excellent point and I am the first to admit I may be doing that. So I will listen to what he says the next few weeks. For sure someone like me in the extreme middle has expectations he is an idiot from city politics and how he behaved at Toronto City Hall as a pathetic thug covering up his brother's bad behavior. The Tory party supposedly threw out Pat Brown for having questionable morals, and then put in someone everyone knows was a drug pusher throughout high school. What does that say to voters like me?

I do admit the last few days he has not sounded out of control actually quite calm and controlled. I tell you what. For me the sex education issue is a non issue. I think saying you are going to undo it is silly. Parents have the right to pull their kids from classes now and they do. Its a non issue. He should not waste the party's time on such issues and focus on the economy. For example he made a point someone like me in the middle understands which is-its probably more effective economically not to increase the minimum wage rate but instead simply make sure people at the minimum wage level are not taxed. They end up with more money in their pocket. He is right. When you increase minimum wage but tax it which Wynne is doing its a dishonest tax grab. She gives it, then takes it back and dupes poor people into feeling she helped them. He explained that quite well when I heard him responding on that issue.

Maybe just maybe if he concentrates on the economy he might just prove people like me wrong. I hope so and I would then vote for him. I don't like some of his comments over the years. He was a bully in City Hall shouting down with great disrespect concerned citizens. I was at one such meeting where I did not agree with those citizens but the way he handled them was uncalled for. I spoke to some of them. They had concerns I talked to them about respectfully in a not so bad debate after. We all agreed what they were saying deserved acknowledgement. That is all people really want sometimes. I hope he understands that. When he was talking about minimum wage he was respectful to people on that wage in his comments.

So I will keep an open mind and listen. Truthfully its hard for me at this point to do that with Wynne but I will try listen to him and Horvath. You are right Ford has a lot of preconceived images about his beliefs and behavior. Its just it would have been a hell of a lot easier with someone like Mulroney who has no baggage so to speak other than she was BM's daughter and might be considered out of touch with grass roots Ontarians which she could have dispelled.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 16, 2018, 01:40:32 pm
Wynne Prorogues the House just to have a Throne Speech on Monday.

She's Scared AF of DoFo.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 16, 2018, 01:42:12 pm
Wynne Prorogues the House just to have a Throne Speech on Monday.

She's Scared AF of DoFo.

Sure thing, she is running away from him for a whole weekend, less the weekend because the Legislature doesn't sit on the weekend.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 16, 2018, 02:20:26 pm
Seems a desperation move to have a Throne Speech as a Campaign announcement. Has an incumbent government ever done this?

Now all tabled legislation needs to be re-introduced.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 16, 2018, 02:33:07 pm
Seems a desperation move to have a Throne Speech as a Campaign announcement. Has an incumbent government ever done this?

Now all tabled legislation needs to be re-introduced.

The budget is due out in a couple of weeks, if there is a major shift in priorities in the budget then this may be a way of introducing them. I agree however doing it 3 months before a general election seems unusual.

From a practical point however, with the legislature currently on spring break and the formality of reintroducing legislation (which Wynne says all current ones will be done) there is no real interruption to business other than the hour or so of the speech.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 16, 2018, 02:37:40 pm
I'm not saying it will.

But you have a campaign ahead. That's pretty much a Throne Speech anyway. Ditto with a budget.

This is just a waste of everyone's time.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: chilipeppers on March 16, 2018, 02:54:35 pm
No doubt they are rejigging the budget so they can buy votes.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 16, 2018, 02:59:16 pm
No doubt they are rejigging the budget so they can buy votes.

Yes, nice to have a budget and not fairy dust (will balance the books, cut taxes, keep everyone on the payroll, and tinkerbell will find "efficiencies").
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 16, 2018, 03:49:15 pm
Yes, nice to have a budget and not fairy dust (will balance the books, cut taxes, keep everyone on the payroll, and tinkerbell will find "efficiencies").

The Wynne Liberals said they'd balance the budget, only to do it on one time sell offs and now are headed back to deficit even during a relatively good economic period.

A Liberal budget is all about fairy dust.

They can't balance the budget, because they have to buy votes.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 16, 2018, 06:24:52 pm
Yes, nice to have a budget and not fairy dust (will balance the books, cut taxes, keep everyone on the payroll, and tinkerbell will find "efficiencies").


Like the Trudeau Liberals promising to balance the budget and reduce the debt to GDP to 27% by 2019?
Remember those? They were in there with open, transparent government, more power for MPs and parliament, and a change to how we elect MPs.

"...and the budget will balance itself!"  - Well, not so much apparently.


Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on March 17, 2018, 08:15:27 am
Liberals tease NDP votes by offering left-wing baubles and sometimes actual concessions.

They tease Conservative votes by offering balanced budgets and responsible spending.

After about 8 years on average, voters dump them and choose the Conservatives, or gives them a minority with the NDP.  Then they put in a new face and the game goes on.

......

As for DoFo, Wynne is probably glad to have him as an opponent so she can pull out her fear-mongering and deplorables-blaming campaign, which will reduce the Liberals to single-digit seats, and negative poll numbers.  That means people who aren't even polled will be added to the polls to say they will vote for anyone but Wynne.

Then DoFo, and either:

1) Keep Trumptario Beautiful

OR

2) "I will do whatever I need to, to stay up in the polls"

Hope for #2, because the people actually want something reasonable.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 04:01:32 pm
So 6 more years of deficit. So basically the entire mandate should they get elected again.

Wynne is promising the moon with modest tax hikes. With interest rates going up governments can't keep buying votes with people's own money. There has to be some attempt a fiscal responsibility.

I hope people don't buy these lies. Sure DoFo is rough around the edges but he can't be this bad in government.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 28, 2018, 04:10:38 pm
Sure DoFo is rough around the edges but he can't be this bad in government.

When he was in government, he had the worst attendance record and drove up the debt. Yes, DoFo is rough around the edges and incompetent to boot.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 07:47:04 pm
When he was in government, he had the worst attendance record and drove up the debt. Yes, DoFo is rough around the edges and incompetent to boot.

He was a councillor and it's illegal for a municipality to run a deficit.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 28, 2018, 08:05:13 pm
He was a councillor and it's illegal for a municipality to run a deficit.

I think you need to reeducate yourself, check out the City of Toronto Act Regulation 610/06. It spells out in detail what debt the city can undertake, both long term and short term. In a nutshell, short term borrowing can be used for operating expenses (50% of estimated revenues for the year up to September 30, and 25% for the remainder of the year) but are expected to be paid when tax is collected. Short term borrowing can be used for interim financing of capital work, and long term debt can also be used for capital work by: issuing debentures; issuing revenue bonds; or entering bank loan agreements.  (Reg. 265/07, s. 1).

Under the Ford regime, long term debt grew by $1.2 billion.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 28, 2018, 08:32:02 pm
I think you need to reeducate yourself. A municipality cannot run a deficit for operating expenses, it can however borrow for capital expenditures. Under the Ford regime it grew by $1.2 billion.

What's the deficit grown by under Wynne?
We don't even know because her crooked government cooks the books.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 08:32:38 pm
Well this Provincial government has doubled the provinces debt and actually sold off assets to pay for capital expenditures.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 28, 2018, 08:34:57 pm
Well this Provincial government has doubled the provinces debt and actually sold off assets to pay for capital expenditures.

You mean Bruce nuclear and 407ETR? Oh wait, that was the Progressive Conservatives.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 28, 2018, 08:43:01 pm
her crooked government

Crooked Kathleen - you know who you are beginning to sound like
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 09:29:32 pm
Crooked Kathleen - you know who you are beginning to sound like

Does Corrupt work better for you?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 28, 2018, 10:02:50 pm
From the outside it seems like dissatisfaction with Wynne is so profound that even if they had selected an adulterous senile orangutan, the PCs would be sure to win.

I glanced at the headlines yesterday and saw that Doug Ford promises to create jobs by "cutting red tape", which seems to me like the ultimate dumb-guy answer to every single question in politics.

"Mr Ford! If you become Premier, how do you plan to deal with the issue of blah-blah?"

"You know, the reason we can't blah-blah is because of all the red tape! The real problem is red tape!   When I'm Premier, I'll cut the red tape so that we can blah-blah!"

I didn't read the article, but the "cutting red tape" meme certainly reinforced my view of Ford and his boosters.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 10:31:07 pm

I didn't read the article, but the "cutting red tape" meme certainly reinforced my view of Ford and his boosters.

 -k

As opposed to "We need to help everyone in the province by being in perpetual deficit". DoFo isn't my choice, but people can't let this party lie to us again.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: guest4 on March 28, 2018, 10:37:13 pm
As opposed to "We need to help everyone in the province by being in perpetual deficit". DoFo isn't my choice, but people can't let this party lie to us again.

Always better to have a different party lie to you. 
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 28, 2018, 10:39:39 pm
As opposed to "We need to help everyone in the province by being in perpetual deficit". DoFo isn't my choice, but people can't let this party lie to us again.

The on thing DoFo has is the dupes who follow his cut taxes line that has 100% of the time lead to much higher deficits. We need fiscally responsible government, not fiscally incompetent.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 28, 2018, 10:46:34 pm
The on thing DoFo has is the dupes who follow his cut taxes line that has 100% of the time lead to much higher deficits. We need fiscally responsible government, not fiscally incompetent.

The party in power has doubled the debt in 15 years and pledges to ad to it. I don't know how anyone can do much worse.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 28, 2018, 10:50:48 pm
I completely understand that the prevailing mood in Ontario is dissatisfaction with Wynne and her government.

It just pains me that the beneficiary of this mood is a clown like Doug Ford.

 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2018, 11:12:22 pm
Wynne is very desperate.  She's spent the last year trying to buy votes by throwing goodies at people they'll just have to pay for in the coming decades...which interest.  She's bribing people with their own money.

Scary thing is, a lot of Ontarians are this stupid. Look at the personal debt people in Ontario have.  People are stupid, naive, greedy, and entitled, want things now, get into credit card debt & think they can just pay for it later.

I'd vote for a bucket of **** before I'd reward Wynne's gov with a vote.  That bucket of ****'s name is Doug Ford.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2018, 11:14:54 pm
I completely understand that the prevailing mood in Ontario is dissatisfaction with Wynne and her government.

It just pains me that the beneficiary of this mood is a clown like Doug Ford.

It's almost like people in Ontario are purposefully trying be governed by the most brain-dead people.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on March 29, 2018, 08:13:46 am
It's almost like people in Ontario are purposefully trying be governed by the most brain-dead people.

Considering who our PM is, that's not unique to Ontario.

Also a populist backlash is not unique to North America either.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: cybercoma on March 29, 2018, 01:31:40 pm
I completely understand that the prevailing mood in Ontario is dissatisfaction with Wynne and her government.

It just pains me that the beneficiary of this mood is a clown like Doug Ford.

 -k
He's going to cut taxes though! He's like the Oprah of Ontario. YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! EVERYBODY GETS A TAX CUT!

Sounds great until you realize that the provincial government runs the hospitals, paves the roads, runs a provincial police force, runs the schools, licenses bars/shops, maintains jails, runs courts, and has a staff to administer all of these functions.

But sure. LET'S ALL GET TAX CUTS!
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 29, 2018, 02:46:30 pm
Crooked Kathleen - you know who you are beginning to sound like

First, I didn't say that. I said her government is crooked. Given the number of economic scandals and the way her own auditor general is threatening to refuse to endorse their books because of the financial manipulation that's going on the term seems appropriate.

Are you aware the Ontario AG threatened, just the other day, to issue an "adverse opinion" on the province's financial statements? No AG in the history of confederation has ever issued such a statement against a provincial or federal government. It basically means the books cannot be relied on to be truthful because the numbers have been manipulated too heavily.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 29, 2018, 03:04:31 pm
He's going to cut taxes though! He's like the Oprah of Ontario. YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! EVERYBODY GETS A TAX CUT!

Sounds great until you realize that the provincial government runs the hospitals, paves the roads, runs a provincial police force, runs the schools, licenses bars/shops, maintains jails, runs courts, and has a staff to administer all of these functions.

But sure. LET'S ALL GET TAX CUTS!

The Ontario Liberals have increased taxes steadily for fifteen years, and increased spending even more, to more than double the debt.
Few in Ontario can honestly say this has led in any way to an improvement in society or in government services. It has instead led to the most highly paid government employees in the world. Just over 10% of the province's population is now a public sector employee. And of those, roughly 10% make over $100,000 a year, with generous benefits and pensions. It's an untenable situation.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 29, 2018, 03:06:14 pm
Are you aware the Ontario AG threatened, just the other day, to issue an "adverse opinion" on the province's financial statements?

I am aware that Bonnie Lysyk has a disagreement specifically with the IESO and KPMG. Yes if she issues an adverse opinion it would be first in Canadian history. All the rest is posturing.

b.t.w. I raised the exact same issue she is in 2008 when Flaherty and Harper gave the banks $120 billion without properly accounting for it. The whole issue is covering a debt with an asset, like banks do every single day.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 29, 2018, 03:10:15 pm
I am aware that Bonnie Lysyk has a disagreement specifically with the IESO and KPMG. Yes if she issues an adverse opinion it would be first in Canadian history. All the rest is posturing.

You talk like IESO is some sort of foreign agency rather than run by the Liberal party of Ontario. Anything they're doing to hide the amount of debt on Ontario's books is done on the orders of Kathleen Wynne's government. And KPMG are hirelings. If these two organizations are lying to her and refusing to provide information it's because Wynne told them to. Nor is her problem just over how she's hiding electrical system debt.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 29, 2018, 03:14:57 pm
If these two organizations are lying to her and refusing to provide information it's because Wynne told them to.

Wow, hiding information. Did you come up with that all by yourself? The disagreement Lysyk has with the IESO has been going on for a long time, and it is not about hiding information. It is about how things are reported.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on March 29, 2018, 07:15:59 pm
Wow, hiding information. Did you come up with that all by yourself? The disagreement Lysyk has with the IESO has been going on for a long time, and it is not about hiding information. It is about how things are reported.

Your continued defense of the Wynne regime is pathetic.

Her concerns included incorrect accounting, deceptive and obstructive behaviour by the IESO’s board and management, and poor financial controls.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-auditor-general-blasts-bogus-hydro-accounting-strategies-in-ontario/
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 30, 2018, 08:47:01 am
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-credit-rating-agencies-warn-ontario-about-planned-spending/

Quote
Two credit-rating agencies have issued warnings to the Ontario government over its plan to run deficits over the next several years.

On Thursday, both Moody’s Investor Service and DBRS said the fiscal plan set out by the Liberal government in its 2018-19 budget, which includes billions in new spending, would harm the province’s credit profile over the long term.

“It demonstrates in the clearest terms that the province is not committed to disciplined … fiscal policy,” DBRS analysts said in a report.

Both agencies stopped short of downgrading Ontario’s debt, but stressed that the province’s creditworthiness could come under pressure as a result of abandoning its commitment to balanced budgets

You have to have a very low ethical fiber if you're so desperate to keep your job that your plan is to manipulate the budget so you can say you have a balanced budget in an election year and then spend into oblivion the already most indebted sub-sovereign government on the planet in order to try to bribe today's voters with their children's & grandchildren's money.  The people who vote for this deserve similar contempt.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: kimmy on March 30, 2018, 12:36:35 pm
He's going to cut taxes though! He's like the Oprah of Ontario. YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! AND YOU GET A TAX CUT! EVERYBODY GETS A TAX CUT!

Sounds great until you realize that the provincial government runs the hospitals, paves the roads, runs a provincial police force, runs the schools, licenses bars/shops, maintains jails, runs courts, and has a staff to administer all of these functions.

But sure. LET'S ALL GET TAX CUTS!


But Doug Ford will pay for the tax cuts by defunding the CBC!   Should be an easy promise to deliver, since the Ontario government provides $0 in funding for the CBC.


I feel like there should be a "dumb-guy politics" bingo card full of phrases we can check off whenever Ford opens his mouth.

"Cut red tape!"  check
"Tax cuts!"  check
"Defund the CBC!" check

I expect that "foreigners took our jobs!" and "negotiate better deals!" are coming soon.


 -k
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on March 30, 2018, 12:53:53 pm
I feel like there should be a "dumb-guy politics" bingo card full of phrases we can check off whenever Ford opens his mouth.

 “drive efficiencies” - check
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on April 06, 2018, 09:47:45 am
As opposed to the Liberals who will continue deficit spending well into the next decade. And in a time of relatively good economic production.

I'm pretty deflated that the PCs named DoFo their leader, but there's nothing that can convince me that the Ontario Liberals deserve another mandate. NOTHING!
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Mr. Perfect on April 07, 2018, 03:30:06 am
As opposed to the Liberals who will continue deficit spending well into the next decade. And in a time of relatively good economic production.

I'm pretty deflated that the PCs named DoFo their leader, but there's nothing that can convince me that the Ontario Liberals deserve another mandate. NOTHING!

That’s called cutting your nose to spite your face.  DoFo will clearly be even worse.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: MH on April 07, 2018, 07:44:14 am

But Doug Ford will pay for the tax cuts by defunding the CBC!   Should be an easy promise to deliver, since the Ontario government provides $0 in funding for the CBC.

 

From what I read that was an intentional misquote, ie. fake news.

Yes I fell for it.   >:(
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on April 07, 2018, 09:26:58 am
That’s called cutting your nose to spite your face.  DoFo will clearly be even worse.

Clearly? How? How do you propose he will be worse? He will clearly try to spend less money. He will clearly try to balance the budget. Why is that clearly worse? Okay, he's not the brightest guy around. He will simply order his cabinet "Spend less!" and they will attempt to do so. Whoever gets named minister of finance will come up with a budget which will spend less. Ministers will keep to that budget. Doug Ford will make various statements and wave his arms around a lot. How is this clearly worse?
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: ?Impact on April 07, 2018, 12:06:14 pm
How is this clearly worse?

Infrastructure will crumble, people will die, and we will be left with a large bill to clean up the mess.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: SirJohn on April 07, 2018, 04:25:20 pm
Infrastructure will crumble, people will die, and we will be left with a large bill to clean up the mess.

So same as the last dozen years then.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Omni on April 07, 2018, 09:07:55 pm
Infrastructure will crumble, people will die, and we will be left with a large bill to clean up the mess.

Maybe DoFo will take a page out of his brothers book and run around fixing potholes. Hopefully he won't be as embarrassing for the people of Ontario as Rob was. It looks like the Tories are ahead not because they like Doug, but that they don't like Wynne.
Title: Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
Post by: Boges on April 09, 2018, 07:31:59 am
Infrastructure will crumble, people will die, and we will be left with a large bill to clean up the mess.

LOL. That's some Sweet Fear Mongering.

Hidden Agenda didn't want any of that?