Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: JBG on December 23, 2017, 05:28:19 pm

Title: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: JBG on December 23, 2017, 05:28:19 pm
On July 7, 1999 the U.S. Embassy in Germany moved from Bonn to Berlin. A bit of history is in order (link) (https://de.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-history/chancery/). The U.S. State Department's history is here (link) (https://history.state.gov/countries/german-democratic-republic) .

Before the U.S. broke diplomatic relations with Germany in 1941, the embassy was located in Berlin. After the end of WW II Germany was split into East Germany, otherwise known as the Democratic Republic of Germany and West Germany, otherwise known as the Federal Republic of Germany. The U.S. initially didn't have diplomatic relations with either "Germany." We established relations with West Germany in May 1955 and East Germany in September 1974. When the countries reunited in 1990 we turned the East German embassy into a "branch." The German Embassy was in Bonn, where the West German embassy had been located. On July 7, 1999 we moved the embassy to a reunited Berlin.

One can argue that the move was deeply provocative to Russia. Russia had, just nine and one-half years earlier had effective control over East Germany. We were taking a stand on a regional controversy.
One could argue that we spent tons of money on the new embassy and received no tangible benefit. Some argue that we should get tangible benefits for embassy moves. I'd like to hear there's and other's views.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2017, 06:55:25 pm
As far as i know,  Germany was a united sovereign country in 1999  well past post cold war.  Russia had no business where embassies were located, and the US could put it anywhere Germany wanted it. 

Israel/Palestine and Jerusalem is a very different situation.

Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: wilber on December 23, 2017, 06:56:22 pm

East Germany was never part of the Soviet Union, nor was it inhabited by Russians. Russia has no territorial claims in Germany. Should the Russians also be upset about where western embassies are located in all the other former Soviet Bloc countries?
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: JBG on December 23, 2017, 08:13:29 pm
As far as i know,  Germany was a united sovereign country in 1999  well past post cold war.  Russia had no business where embassies were located, and the US could put it anywhere Germany wanted it. 

Israel/Palestine and Jerusalem is a very different situation.
East Germany was never part of the Soviet Union, nor was it inhabited by Russians. Russia has no territorial claims in Germany. Should the Russians also be upset about where western embassies are located in all the other former Soviet Bloc countries?
Israel is a sovereign country. East Germany was an East-bloc country subject to invasion in the manner of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviet/Russian claims were as genuine-- or not genuine, as the Arab claims.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: wilber on December 23, 2017, 11:22:53 pm
Israel is a sovereign country. East Germany was an East-bloc country subject to invasion in the manner of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviet/Russian claims were as genuine-- or not genuine, as the Arab claims.

Not really, Arabs had been living in the Holy Land for more than a millennium, the Russians had only been in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany for just over 40 years. These countries also had their own governments even though they tied to the Soviet Union, which by the way, no longer exists.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: JBG on December 24, 2017, 12:40:41 am
Not really, Arabs had been living in the Holy Land for more than a millennium, the Russians had only been in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany for just over 40 years. These countries also had their own governments even though they tied to the Soviet Union, which by the way, no longer exists.
So none of Israel is "undisputed"?
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: waldo on December 24, 2017, 03:11:24 am
East Germany was an East-bloc country subject to invasion in the manner of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviet/Russian claims were as genuine-- or not genuine, as the Arab claims.

uhhh... the Soviet Union was a signatory to the, 'Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany' --- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany

German reunification & the German initiative to reestablish Berlin as its capital city has nothing comparable (and fitting) to your artificially crafted/failed analogy. The benefit to the U.S. that you question is quite clear: in line with reestablishing Berlin as the capital city, infrastructure development included land settlements to effect new construction of foreign embassies within Berlin; accordingly, the benefit to the U.S. in moving its embassy was to follow the lead of the German government, to follow the path struck by other countries to move their embassies, in kind. 
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: wilber on December 24, 2017, 09:54:58 am
So none of Israel is "undisputed"?

I diidnít say that.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: JBG on December 24, 2017, 11:17:04 am
Not really, Arabs had been living in the Holy Land for more than a millennium, the Russians had only been in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany for just over 40 years. These countries also had their own governments even though they tied to the Soviet Union, which by the way, no longer exists.
So none of Israel is "undisputed"?
I diidnít say that.
Then according the the Arabs what parts of Israel are undisputed?
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: SirJohn on December 24, 2017, 12:04:45 pm
Nobody but the Palestinians seems to seriously dispute that the West Jerusalem is Israeli, so if the Israelis want foreign embassies to locate in West Jerusalem how is this an issue? I know the Palestinian leadership continues to rabble rouse by proclaiming all of Jerusalem as soon to be the capital of Palestine but that's simply nonsensical.

Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: waldo on December 24, 2017, 12:20:33 pm
Nobody but the Palestinians seems to seriously dispute that the West Jerusalem is Israeli, so if the Israelis want foreign embassies to locate in West Jerusalem how is this an issue? I know the Palestinian leadership continues to rabble rouse by proclaiming all of Jerusalem as soon to be the capital of Palestine but that's simply nonsensical.

@the UN, these countries voted in favour of the U.S./Trump initiative to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel:

    Guatemala
    Honduras
    Israel
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Nauru
    Palau
    Togo
    United States

and @the Security Council level, 14 out of the councilís 15 members supported the resolution condemning the U.S./Trump decision on Jerusalem --- forcing the U.S. to exercise its veto power.

so ya, good summation on your part!  ;D
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Omni on December 24, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
Nobody but the Palestinians seems to seriously dispute that the West Jerusalem is Israeli, so if the Israelis want foreign embassies to locate in West Jerusalem how is this an issue? I know the Palestinian leadership continues to rabble rouse by proclaiming all of Jerusalem as soon to be the capital of Palestine but that's simply nonsensical.

Ah no, the whole peace negotiation process called for a two state solution with EAST Jerusalem as the capitol of Palestine.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: MH on December 24, 2017, 01:05:32 pm
We seem to be moving on from the bad analogy in the subject line, which works for me.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: SirJohn on December 24, 2017, 02:32:33 pm
Ah no, the whole peace negotiation process called for a two state solution with EAST Jerusalem as the capitol of Palestine.

I said WEST Jerusalem.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: SirJohn on December 24, 2017, 02:33:05 pm
@the UN, these countries voted in favour of the U.S./Trump initiative to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel:

    Guatemala
    Honduras
    Israel
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Nauru
    Palau
    Togo
    United States

and @the Security Council level, 14 out of the councilís 15 members supported the resolution condemning the U.S./Trump decision on Jerusalem --- forcing the U.S. to exercise its veto power.

so ya, good summation on your part!  ;D

Nothing I said was incorrect.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Omni on December 24, 2017, 03:23:35 pm
I said WEST Jerusalem.

You accused the Palestinians of wanting to declare ALL of Jerusalem as their capitol, when in fact it's your buddy Trump who is allowing Israel to claim it all. so you seem to have it backwards.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: wilber on December 24, 2017, 05:23:28 pm
One wonders how long this is going to continue, 70 years and counting. Anyone for another 70 or should they just come to an agreement and get on with life? Unfortunately it looks like another 70 is more likely.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: SirJohn on December 28, 2017, 02:54:44 pm
You accused the Palestinians of wanting to declare ALL of Jerusalem as their capitol, when in fact it's your buddy Trump who is allowing Israel to claim it all. so you seem to have it backwards.

The Palestinians THEMSELVES say that All of Jerusalem is to be their capital.

Haniya stressed the fact that the Palestinians see Jerusalem as united and the capital of their future state.
"Jerusalem, all of Jerusalem, is ours," he said
.  http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/hamas-leader-jerusalem-decision-war-declaration-171207083427072.html

Your vast ignorance about everything even peripherally related with the middle east is on display yet again.

As far as Trump goes, I would say my condemnation of him has been as thorough, as knowledgeable and insightful as anyone's, and certainly far moreso than your adolescent virtue signaling  as you rub your flaccid thoughtlessness up against your counterparts on the other site.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Rue on December 29, 2017, 09:28:05 am
Not really, Arabs had been living in the Holy Land for more than a millennium, the Russians had only been in Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany for just over 40 years. These countries also had their own governments even though they tied to the Soviet Union, which by the way, no longer exists.

Arabs? Do you mean Beduins or do you mean Muslims? Do you know what an Arab is. Or better still are you suggesting the Arabs of the Middle East would only be Muslim and not Jews and Christians as well? Get back to me.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Rue on December 29, 2017, 09:30:01 am
Nobody but the Palestinians seems to seriously dispute that the West Jerusalem is Israeli, so if the Israelis want foreign embassies to locate in West Jerusalem how is this an issue? I know the Palestinian leadership continues to rabble rouse by proclaiming all of Jerusalem as soon to be the capital of Palestine but that's simply nonsensical.

Technically the entire Arab League does as this is part and parcel of the issue of rejecting the notion of a Jewish state of Israel. Its about Islam the religion which at the present time is interpreted by all Muslim nations of the Middle East as prohibiting any non Muslim from owning land anywhere in the world not just the Middle East.

Its also compounded by the spineless UN which placates this religious bigotry to placate its oil supplies.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: JBG on January 01, 2018, 07:14:41 am
Jerusalem was the central religious center of ancient Israel. If Israel gives way on Jerusalem the intellectual underpinnings of the entire state will be challenged.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 01, 2018, 06:48:59 pm
Jerusalem was the central religious center of ancient Israel. If Israel gives way on Jerusalem the intellectual underpinnings of the entire state will be challenged.

Other peoples besides Jews live in Jerusalem and have for over a millennium, they've helped build it and have history within it, and have claim to it also.  Israel doesn't have full claim to Jerusalem just as it doesn't have full claim to all of Israel/Gaza/West Bank etc.  The intellectual underpinnings of the state of Israel (as it is now border-wise) is already challenged.
Title: Re: Should the U.S. Embassy in Germany Have Moved from Bonn to Berlin?
Post by: wilber on January 01, 2018, 07:48:42 pm
Arabs? Do you mean Beduins or do you mean Muslims? Do you know what an Arab is. Or better still are you suggesting the Arabs of the Middle East would only be Muslim and not Jews and Christians as well? Get back to me.

The Rashidun Caliphate goes back to the 7th century so yes Arabs, and after them Byzantines and Ottomans. So yes Arabs, Christians and Turks for a millennium plus around 400 years. Greeks and Romans to but who's counting.