Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: MH on November 30, 2017, 05:38:08 am

Title: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on November 30, 2017, 05:38:08 am
http://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/lab-grown-clean-meat-is-almost-here-will-you-eat-it

Quote
Shapiro’s book is a wake-up call informing Americans that not only will lab-grown, cultured meat be healthier—unnecessary antibiotic usage on animals living in crowded, contaminated quarters has made the quality of much of our meat questionable at best—it will also tremendously reduce animal suffering.

Lab grown meat ?  Would you eat it ?  I definitely would.  The article says 2/3 would try it, and also that there was initially some skepticism about 'unnatural' ice.  Jeez, yeah, all of those potential chemicals in your life from airbourne machine effluent from the refrigerator fan, etc.  Nobody complains about that today....

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/answering-how-a-sausage-gets-made-will-be-more-complicated-in-2020

This says it's now $11.36, which I think is the cost of a franken-burger, not a pound....
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Goddess on November 30, 2017, 10:11:47 am
Probably I would not eat it.  I barely eat meat now.  I am living with a T-Rex out in the country though, so we generally get beef, chicken and eggs from local farmers.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: SirJohn on November 30, 2017, 11:22:43 am
If it's healthier then I don't see why not. As long as it doesn't make a second head grow out of my back or something...
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: wilber on November 30, 2017, 12:32:44 pm
What's in hamburger anyway?
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on November 30, 2017, 05:23:36 pm
What's in hamburger anyway?

Jeez, that is something I don't think about.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: SirJohn on November 30, 2017, 06:05:04 pm
Jeez, that is something I don't think about.

Probably a good thing not to, imo.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on November 30, 2017, 06:15:13 pm
Probably a good thing not to, imo.

I suppose you are right.  I think this could be a great thing for the environment, the economy and ignorant eaters like yours truly.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: kimmy on November 30, 2017, 10:34:10 pm
I know a microbiology researcher who says the stuff we eat is far too clean.    He's referring to excessive sanitation.  But as far as food that has less artificial hormones and antibiotics, I can't see a downside.

If it's safe and it tastes good, I will eat it.


I recall a William Gibson book--  maybe it was Count Zero or Neuromancer-- where one of the characters meets an incredibly wealthy person for dinner.  He's perplexed that the steak is so bland.   It's explained to him that the steak is bland because it was made from a real cow that grazed in a real field on real grass, as opposed to an animal grown in a vat that was fed a diet of krill.


 -k
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: gh0sthacked on December 01, 2017, 02:19:09 pm
I know a microbiology researcher who says the stuff we eat is far too clean.    He's referring to excessive sanitation.  But as far as food that has less artificial hormones and antibiotics, I can't see a downside.

If it's safe and it tastes good, I will eat it.


I recall a William Gibson book--  maybe it was Count Zero or Neuromancer-- where one of the characters meets an incredibly wealthy person for dinner.  He's perplexed that the steak is so bland.   It's explained to him that the steak is bland because it was made from a real cow that grazed in a real field on real grass, as opposed to an animal grown in a vat that was fed a diet of krill.

 -k

It's similar to the notion of a super clean home as well. We need germs now and then to keep our immune systems active and proactive in a sense. With a super clean environment we may be doing ourselves a disservice.

Will I eat lab grown meat? Well I'll give it a shot even with the reservations (justified or not) I have about it.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: waldo on December 01, 2017, 05:21:06 pm
If it's safe and it tastes good, I will eat it.

ya can't beat meat, hey kimmy?
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: kimmy on December 02, 2017, 12:17:30 pm
It's similar to the notion of a super clean home as well. We need germs now and then to keep our immune systems active and proactive in a sense. With a super clean environment we may be doing ourselves a disservice.

It's not just the effects on the immune system, although that is one aspect of it.  As well the bacteria and viruses and microbes in our bodies are actually a factory for vitamins and nutrients that our bodies require.  If your kids grow up in an overly sanitized environment, they might not get the bacteria and microbes and viruses that produce all the important stuff that help our bodies.   Apparently there's a huge amount of research being done on the symbiotic relationship between us and the microbes in our body.

My acquaintance feels that it's important that kids be outside playing in the dirt and playing with other kids and animals and eating unwashed fruits and berries and stuff that they picked up off the floor and trying to eat their toys and drinking from the garden hose and all the other stuff that kids have been doing forever, because all this stuff is how people get the microbes they need into their bodies.

 -k
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: kimmy on December 02, 2017, 12:27:25 pm
ya can't beat meat, hey kimmy?

As I say, a body like this needs fuel!  I simply could not survive on rice cakes and smashed avocado. 


My main concerns with meat have always been ethics, environmental impact, and the health effects of whatever hormones and antibiotics and mystery substances they're feeding the animals.  If there's a solution on the horizon that addresses all of these concerns, I'm actually pretty excited about that.  The Girls Who Eat Meat Adventure Club is back in action!

 -k
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 22, 2017, 06:06:05 pm
I know a microbiology researcher who says the stuff we eat is far too clean.    He's referring to excessive sanitation.  But as far as food that has less artificial hormones and antibiotics, I can't see a downside.

The old saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is true.  Though i'd add "whatever doesn't kill you or permanently harm you makes you stronger".  Losing both your arms will make you weaker.

We're the softest wusses in human history, myself included.  My grandfather drove tanks in WWII and had the task of scraping human skeletal remains from the tank treads as it moved...meanwhile I'm using handsanitizer & drinking bottled water a few times a day.  People used to die of malnutrition/famine, now they die from overeating & sitting around getting fat.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: TimG on December 22, 2017, 07:44:58 pm
Lab grown meat ?  Would you eat it ?  I definitely would.
Lab grown meat is an interesting academic exercise. Industrial scale meat production will involve all of the same trade offs that come with raising animals. i.e. do you really believe that it would be  possible to have huge bioreactors consuming sugar and generating waste that did not have a problem with bacterial contamination? I don't, which means antibiotics will likely become required for "clean meat" production too. I suspect once all of the costs and trade offs are added up it will be hard to compete with natural meat.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 22, 2017, 11:10:47 pm
As long as I can still have my Swanson's Salisbury Steak TV dinner I'm down.

Collect all 5 bone fragments kids!
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on December 23, 2017, 08:04:05 am
  I suspect once all of the costs and trade offs are added up it will be hard to compete with natural meat.

I think that's the point here: it is now starting to compete at least on a cost basis.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: TimG on December 23, 2017, 09:20:34 am
I think that's the point here: it is now starting to compete at least on a cost basis.
Nonsense. It is still in the proof of concept phase: https://gizmodo.com/behind-the-hype-of-lab-grown-meat-1797383294

Quote
“There has been a lot of news coverage for almost seven years now, even in times when there wasn’t a lot of new things going on,” Mark Post, Professor of Vascular Physiology at Maastricht University in the Netherlands, co-founder of Mosa Meat and creator of the first cultured hamburger, told Gizmodo. “It seems a bit excessive. It’s either one way or the other. It’s negative for reasons that are not traceable but there’s no particular evidence, it’s just feelings, or it’s very positive which is more related to high expectations and wishful thinking. The reality is that we don’t have a product yet. It’s taking quite some time and there are still hurdles to overcome on getting there.”

You need to separate the marketing hype provided by Musk-like entrepreneurs from the reality.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on December 23, 2017, 10:19:30 am
Fair enough.  I only based my assertion on the fact that you can afford a non-animal-meat burger today, but I concur that that's meaningless.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: kimmy on December 31, 2017, 11:58:23 am
Lab grown meat is an interesting academic exercise. Industrial scale meat production will involve all of the same trade offs that come with raising animals. i.e. do you really believe that it would be  possible to have huge bioreactors consuming sugar and generating waste that did not have a problem with bacterial contamination? I don't, which means antibiotics will likely become required for "clean meat" production too. I suspect once all of the costs and trade offs are added up it will be hard to compete with natural meat.

Maybe for the time being.  But at some point, it'll become more economical to grow meat in a vat than in a field.  Factor in the unpredictability of feed and water supplies, and the likelihood of increasing drought and rising cost of land in the future, and it seems inevitable that this will happen some day.  That "adapt" thing you keep talking about?  This is one way people will adapt.

 -k
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: guest4 on December 31, 2017, 12:16:07 pm
Maybe for the time being.  But at some point, it'll become more economical to grow meat in a vat than in a field.  Factor in the unpredictability of feed and water supplies, and the likelihood of increasing drought and rising cost of land in the future, and it seems inevitable that this will happen some day.  That "adapt" thing you keep talking about?  This is one way people will adapt.

 -k

No doubt the rich will have 'grown' meat as a demonstration of their wealth, while the rest of us have lab meat/no meat.   
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: TimG on December 31, 2017, 12:23:17 pm
But at some point, it'll become more economical to grow meat in a vat than in a field.
If it did it would require a lot of energy and generate a lot of waste products. We are talking a hypothetical but no technology is perfect. The car was hailed as a "clean" alternative to horses around 1900s and it but still created pollution. The car ended up being the better choice because it was faster and could carry more cargo. If all factory produced meat does is replace natural sources then I am not convinced inevitable downsides will be worth putting up with.
 
Factor in the unpredictability of feed and water supplies, and the likelihood of increasing drought and rising cost of land in the future, and it seems inevitable that this will happen some day.  That "adapt" thing you keep talking about?  This is one way people will adapt.
It would be a way to adapt if it is actually better. I am not convinced it will be.

Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: msj on February 25, 2018, 09:15:11 am
Looks like the fight is on: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/23/the-fight-against-fake-meat-has-officially-begun.html

The usual “we are protecting consumers from those evil competitors” from those vested in the status quo industry:

Quote
The U.S. Cattlemen's Association is looking to draw a line in the sand and launch what could be the first salvo in a long battle against plant-based foods. Earlier this month, the association filed a 15-page petition with the U.S. Department of Agriculture calling for an official definition for the term "beef," and more broadly, "meat."

"While at this time alternative protein sources are not a direct threat to the beef industry, we do see improper labeling of these products as misleading," said Lia Biondo, the association's policy and outreach director. "Our goal is to head off the problem before it becomes a larger issue."


Countered by the up and comers who want to challenge Goliath:

Quote
Not everyone sees it that way. Ethan Brown, founder and CEO of Beyond Meat, said consumers already know what they're looking for when they're browsing the grocery store aisles. But he doesn't necessarily see the petition as a bad thing.

"I think it actually could help us more than it could hurt us because it starts the national dialogue around what really is meat, and if the origin of meat really matters to the consumer," said Brown.


Of course, there is a difference here:

Quote
Clean meat refers to "meat" grown in a lab from a small amount of animal stem cells. This kind of meat isn't on the market yet, but it's in development. Plant-based meat is anything that mimics traditional meat but is made mainly using plant ingredients.

Now I suppose this is something the government should regulate.

Heaven forbid if someone expecting real flesh meat will accidently buy plant based meat.

I can not even imagine the horror upon discovery that tofurkey is not actually turkey!

Clean meat is perhaps a little less obvious though and I look forward to trying some some day.

Humans are terrible at predicting the future but it’s so fun lets throw out some projections anyway:

1) the current meat industry (MI) will use lobbying in government to regulate the alternative meat industry (AMI) hopefully out of existence (from the MI pov). This will just help increase the costs for all food but who cares since food inflation has been so low for so long that this is a non-issue at this time (i.e. food budgets in western countries are a fraction of what they were 3 generations ago).

2) Technology will find a way to make “clean meat” and even vegetable based “meat” so competive that the AMI will see some real noticeable growth.  The MI will continue to use government lobbying and regulation to protect their interests while the AMI lobbies for their interets.

3) A president /governors/premiers will be elected in the US and Canada based on political ideals of either protecting the MI (conservatives) or protecting the environment (progressives). 

Eventually the progressives will start to win and the MI will see possible bans on how they grow their product.

4) Just like Trump ending the coal ban too little too late, the same will happen to the MI.  A future poltician will do his/her best to bring back the old time meat industry to some sucess as foodies of the future appreciate the novelty of their paleo-animal-cruelty type diets. 

Of course, they will be marketed differently than that: pictures of solitary animals grazing in the open plains will romanticize and continue the lie that the MI propagates currently.

5) In the end, consumers will benefit by more choice, interesting new products, and less environmental impact. However, at the cost of only a few remaining jobs as the AMI will be easier to digitize than the MI.







Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: JMT on May 07, 2018, 03:15:57 pm
Maybe for the time being.  But at some point, it'll become more economical to grow meat in a vat than in a field.  Factor in the unpredictability of feed and water supplies, and the likelihood of increasing drought and rising cost of land in the future, and it seems inevitable that this will happen some day.  That "adapt" thing you keep talking about?  This is one way people will adapt.

 -k

I've been thinking a lot about you and clean meat.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: JMT on May 08, 2018, 01:47:31 pm
That was a joke, btw.....
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on May 08, 2018, 02:06:47 pm
That was a joke, btw.....

What is the joke though ?  'Clean meat' ?
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on December 10, 2020, 07:59:08 pm
Beyond Meat burgers are on our menu... a couple of times a month.

Tonight Joan diced some onions McDonalds style.... Simple salad of lettuce, lil cherry tomatoes and Catalina dressing.  Mushrooms fried in margarine with Llowrey's salt and masala spice. 

Covid comforts...
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 14, 2020, 12:51:20 pm
Beyond Meat burgers are on our menu... a couple of times a month.

Tonight Joan diced some onions McDonalds style.... Simple salad of lettuce, lil cherry tomatoes and Catalina dressing.  Mushrooms fried in margarine with Llowrey's salt and masala spice. 

Covid comforts...

Margarine is worse for you than bacon.  Nasty processed vegetable oils with colourants and chemicals.  Gross.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: MH on December 14, 2020, 12:58:33 pm
I didn't get to where I am today eating good food.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 14, 2020, 01:24:36 pm
I didn't get to where I am today eating good food.

Go butter, non-coloured.  Use in moderation.  Your taste buds will thank you.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2020, 03:56:45 pm
Love butter. Julia Child knew a thing or two and she made it to her nineties.

Quote
“With enough butter, anything is good.”

Julia Child
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2020, 03:59:51 pm
Quote
“If you're afraid of butter, use cream.”

Julia Child
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 06:06:19 pm
What's in hamburger anyway?

ham.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2020, 06:11:46 pm
ham.

Beef actually. Don't let the lead into the word fool you.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: eyeball on December 14, 2020, 06:49:49 pm
Beef actually. Don't let the lead into the word fool you.
How on Earth did ham become associated with ground beef in the 1st place?  I make a damn tasty ground pork and beef turkey stuffing but that's different.

Edited to add; I doubt I'll ever stuff a bird with Splat or whatever market name they come up with for meat from a vat.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2020, 09:00:47 pm
Beef actually. Don't let the lead into the word fool you.

Hamburger is the name of a sandwich made with ground meat. Usually beef.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Omni on December 14, 2020, 09:27:39 pm
Hamburger is the name of a sandwich made with ground meat. Usually beef.

Thanks for substantiating my previous post on the subject.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 14, 2020, 11:50:59 pm
Thanks for substantiating my previous post on the subject.

Invented in Hamberg, Germany.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 15, 2020, 12:24:40 am
No i'm pretty sure it's made out of 100% ham and was invented in the United States by Ronald McDonald.
Title: Re: Clean Meat - Will you eat it ?
Post by: BC_cheque on December 15, 2020, 12:26:07 am
Invented in Hamberg, Germany.

Hamburg* actually.  Like the sandwich.