Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: guest4 on November 17, 2017, 08:53:16 am

Title: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: guest4 on November 17, 2017, 08:53:16 am
This is a "newspaper" published in Toronto that vilifies Jews, Muslims, women and liberals.  It claims a disribution of 300,000 and a readership of a million.  It was banned from Canada Post last year and now its editor and publisher (James Sears and Leroy St. Germaine) have been charged under hate speech laws. 
http://www.cbc.ca/1.4403577

Link to The Ward news:  http://www.yourwardnews.ca/

This could be an interesting case to follow, see where the courts may define the limits of free speech.

I am also interested in whether people here think this type of speech should be shut down by government or if it is more effective to rely on social disapproval to limit its spread and influence.   

Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:10:55 am
Hate Laws are already well established and not contested.  What is contested is the extrajudicial power of the Human Rights Tribunals.  I agree with some of their rulings, not others, and I don't know about their current status.

This person seems like a violent nut-rag and I couldn't care less what the government does to him.  His 'Free Speech' excuse went away when he put implied threats in there.

Why is it that nobody advocating free speech actually have good ideas to push ?
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 10:50:20 am
Hate Laws are already well established and not contested.  What is contested is the extrajudicial power of the Human Rights Tribunals.  I agree with some of their rulings, not others, and I don't know about their current status.

This person seems like a violent nut-rag and I couldn't care less what the government does to him.  His 'Free Speech' excuse went away when he put implied threats in there.

Why is it that nobody advocating free speech actually have good ideas to push ?

Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: chilipeppers on November 18, 2017, 11:10:19 am
Quite the rag, in league with Paul Fromm, not sure if they are over the line or not but Canada Post refused to deliver it.    Why does it say 'Aboriginal Owned and Operated' I wonder.

 
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 11:12:41 am
Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?

I guess it's interesting to discuss how the limits change, at least in the public perception, as technology reforms our social relations.  Or it might just be me. 
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 11:13:24 am
Why does it say 'Aboriginal Owned and Operated' I wonder.

Are you doubting it's true ?  Either way, it's probably a way to legitimize the opinions but it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 11:24:44 am
I guess it's interesting to discuss how the limits change, at least in the public perception, as technology reforms our social relations.  Or it might just be me.

Free speech isn't for good ideas.  Nobody tried to shout down the guy who first said, "let's make everyone stop when a schoolbus has its lights flashing".


Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 11:33:40 am
Free speech isn't for good ideas.  Nobody tried to shout down the guy who first said, "let's make everyone stop when a schoolbus has its lights flashing".

Actually, that is one of the reasons to have it.  It's not to give people the right to shout garbage about the Jews because they should.  It serves the 'public good' to have ideas out there.  Otherwise, the Church would still have control over all of our lives.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2017, 11:39:44 am
I certainly think it's reasonable for Canada Post to refuse to deliver this junk.

As for whether it rises to the level of hate speech, I am undecided. The content itself seems to be the kind of garbage you'd find at 4chan.  Perhaps it says something that right-wing extremists have decided that the best way to spread their views is the cartoon memes popular among those basement-dwelling shut-ins.

I think the "Streisand Effect" is something to consider here.  How many of us had heard of "Your Ward" before now? Is it good or bad that these guys are now more famous than they were?

 -k
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 11:44:19 am
Actually, that is one of the reasons to have it.  It's not to give people the right to shout garbage about the Jews because they should.  It serves the 'public good' to have ideas out there.  Otherwise, the Church would still have control over all of our lives.

Well there you go.  I'm sure those first anti church ideas offended someone.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: SirJohn on November 18, 2017, 11:59:17 am
Why is it that nobody advocating free speech actually have good ideas to push ?

I advocate free speech, and I think my ideas are good.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 12:14:53 pm
Well there you go.  I'm sure those first anti church ideas offended someone.

But they were good ideas... is the actual point.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 12:15:35 pm
I advocate free speech, and I think my ideas are good.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

If everybody who differed with authority was wrong then maybe we wouldn't or shouldn't have free speech.  This idea sells well in China so it's not unheard of.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 12:16:01 pm
But they were good ideas... is the actual point.

Not to the people they offended.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: guest4 on November 18, 2017, 12:58:12 pm
So, I don't know if anyone spent much time perusing their back-issues, but they do suggest physical attacks on those they dislike (Jews/gays/Muslims/blacks/uppity women).  It is kind of cartoonish, which i suppose gives them the out of "But it was just a joke, surely you could see that".

So does this differ from Imam's preaching against Jews/gays in Mosques?   
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2017, 01:10:44 pm
So, I don't know if anyone spent much time perusing their back-issues,

I only glanced through the current month, and didn't notice anything that I thought was outright incitement of violence.

but they do suggest physical attacks on those they dislike (Jews/gays/Muslims/blacks/uppity women).  It is kind of cartoonish, which i suppose gives them the out of "But it was just a joke, surely you could see that".
That sounds pretty cut and dried, then.

So does this differ from Imam's preaching against Jews/gays in Mosques?

Well, the religious types have a couple of outs. There's "that's out of context" or "this wasn't to be taken literally" or "this is our scripture, it's protected speech." They're favorites with Christian hate-preachers, so I'm sure they would work for Muslims as well.

I don't think "Your Ward" has those defenses.

 -k
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 01:14:01 pm
So, I don't know if anyone spent much time perusing their back-issues, but they do suggest physical attacks on those they dislike (Jews/gays/Muslims/blacks/uppity women).  It is kind of cartoonish, which i suppose gives them the out of "But it was just a joke, surely you could see that".

So does this differ from Imam's preaching against Jews/gays in Mosques?

I haven't read them, but any incitement to violence against anyone, by anyone, is wrong. I don't care which side is which.  Such is certainly not covered by the freedom of speech umbrella. In my opinion, anyway.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 18, 2017, 01:17:48 pm
For me,  hate speech should be limited to speech against a group that already breaks existing laws, ie: to threaten other groups with violence.  Speech that is disliking/hating a certain group is usually something that I don't agree with at all, but I don't think the government should censor people's voices or ideas, because that gets into very dangerous territory, unless as I said it breaks other existing laws like physical threats/harassment etc.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 03:25:16 pm
Not to the people they offended.

Well...

"Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?"

I guess I do.  That's why I said there aren't any good ideas right now being freely expressed.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 03:35:59 pm
Well...

"Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?"

I guess I do.  That's why I said there aren't any good ideas right now being freely expressed.

The right to free speech has nothing to do with how good the expression is. Elon Musk recently enjoyed his freedom to express by announcing a new truck. Some might think that was a good idea.

I think that you think that freedom of speech is only an issue when you don't like that which is being expressed.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 04:29:06 pm
The right to free speech has nothing to do with how good the expression is.

That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

 
Quote
I think that you think that freedom of speech is only an issue when you don't like that which is being expressed.

There are lots of things I don't like to hear but I don't question free speech because of those.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 04:47:37 pm
That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

 
There are lots of things I don't like to hear but I don't question free speech because of those.

Bad ideas too. The merits of an idea are subjective. But free speech is a right simply because for it not to be would be wrong. That's all.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 05:01:21 pm
Bad ideas too. The merits of an idea are subjective. But free speech is a right simply because for it not to be would be wrong. That's all.

Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'. 
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2017, 05:36:16 pm
Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'.

The right to free speech is central to our system of law and government.   The notion that the King or the Church or the War or anything else must be exempt from criticism is a cornerstone of dictatorship and has been the cause of revolutions.  The right of the people to decide the best course of action is meaningless if without the right to freely express opinions. These ideas originated a time when people could be jailed for questioning the ruler or the church. Consider what happened to that Galileo chap for presenting a scientific theory that the Catholic church didn't care for, for example.

 -k
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 05:48:26 pm
The right to free speech is central to our system of law and government.   The notion that the King or the Church or the War or anything else must be exempt from criticism is a cornerstone of dictatorship and has been the cause of revolutions.  The right of the people to decide the best course of action is meaningless if without the right to freely express opinions. These ideas originated a time when people could be jailed for questioning the ruler or the church. Consider what happened to that Galileo chap for presenting a scientific theory that the Catholic church didn't care for, for example.

 -k

Why are you telling me this ?
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 06:43:22 pm
Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'.

Why?  Eventually, all over the world, everyone will have all the rights they deserve, and that will be a very good thing.

Some rights mean more to some people than other.  I, for instance, thing freedom of religion is somewhat overdone.  Others think it's a good thing.  They think it would be wrong for them to be denied that right. There's no other reason.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 07:06:55 pm
Why?  Eventually, all over the world, everyone will have all the rights they deserve, and that will be a very good thing.


So basically it's like candy.  People on this thread don't seem to be able to say other than "free speech is good".  Oh well.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 07:08:25 pm
So basically it's like candy.  People on this thread don't seem to be able to say other than "free speech is good".  Oh well.

Why is due process good?
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: SirJohn on November 18, 2017, 07:43:58 pm
If everybody who differed with authority was wrong then maybe we wouldn't or shouldn't have free speech.  This idea sells well in China so it's not unheard of.

This position sells well in China with a bun barrel pointed in the face of anyone you ask. That does not mean it's something the Chinese people actually like.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: SirJohn on November 18, 2017, 07:49:18 pm
That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

Not just good ideas, but just as  important is the right to point out when bad things are being done by people in authority or power.

The Ontario Liberals proudly tell everyone who will listen that they've balanced the budget.

I have the right to call them a bunch of fucking liars and point out they're borrowing over 20 billion this year, and will borrow over 30 billion next year. Without freedom of speech I might be locked up for saying that. God knows this is a party with zero respect for anything but raw power. I'm pretty sure if they could put their political enemies and those who criticize them in labour camps they'd do it in a second.

Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 07:58:03 pm
Why is due process good?

Are you able to discuss ideas without first stating that something is "bad" or "good" ?  Does that make you feel better somehow, or allow you to trust me if you check in on these things ?

Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:00:59 pm
This position sells well in China with a bun barrel pointed in the face of anyone you ask. That does not mean it's something the Chinese people actually like.

Sure does.

There are limits to free speech, though.  Do we all have to hold our hands over our hearts to say how great it is ?  I sure don't think so.

As for this douchebag publisher, I really don't care what happens to him nor do I see any value in giving him the right to print his hate rag/threat rag.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:02:25 pm
Not just good ideas, but just as  important is the right to point out when bad things are being done by people in authority or power.

Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

 
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 08:18:28 pm
Are you able to discuss ideas without first stating that something is "bad" or "good" ?  Does that make you feel better somehow, or allow you to trust me if you check in on these things ?

Apparently not. I bet you wish you'd never asked me to join your club now, eh?

Seriously though, you're the one who said freedom of speech only seems to be used for "bad" ideas.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 08:22:01 pm
Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

Restricting rights to the greater good is no good. In fact, it's bad.

I just want the right to express myself, and I'm willing to cede that right to everyone else, regardless of what I think of the utility of it. 
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:30:39 pm
Apparently not. I bet you wish you'd never asked me to join your club now, eh?

No, I still like you.  But sometimes our discussions hit these weird potholes where you just stand on some simple point and we can't go any further.

Quote
Seriously though, you're the one who said freedom of speech only seems to be used for "bad" ideas.

Lately, yes.  It's all about Nazi marches and such.  Maybe I am wrong, so if you have an example post away.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 08:41:15 pm
No, I still like you.  But sometimes our discussions hit these weird potholes where you just stand on some simple point and we can't go any further.

Lately, yes.  It's all about Nazi marches and such.  Maybe I am wrong, so if you have an example post away.

I don't like Nazis either, but if they want to march, who the hell am I?  I'm quite sure that's the whole point.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:46:33 pm
I don't like Nazis either, but if they want to march, who the hell am I?  I'm quite sure that's the whole point.

So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: bcsapper on November 18, 2017, 08:53:58 pm
So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.

Is that women who held up the sign outside the abortion clinic still in jail?
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: chilipeppers on November 18, 2017, 09:25:37 pm
Linda Gibbons, don't think she is right now but she's served something like 10/11  years for protesting quietly inside the bubble.  I doubt she'll quit, she simply believes it is wrong so carries on.   

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-convicts-linda-gibbons-of-breaking-17-year-old-abortion-bubble-zone-c

http://www.lawnow.org/the-story-of-linda-gibbons/
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 09:32:04 pm
Is that women who held up the sign outside the abortion clinic still in jail?

I don't know that case - post it, it's interesting.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 09:35:35 pm
Ok - I will look at this later.

http://nationalpost.com/holy-post/fighting-abortion-one-arrest-at-a-time
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 19, 2017, 12:36:12 am
So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.

Absolute nonsense.  Conservative speakers have been banned or stopped via the heckler's veto from speaking at universities/colleges across the continent because they say things that offend liberal-minded students and faculty.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 19, 2017, 12:53:11 am
Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

Speech, expression, free thought is a natural right we all are born with.   People, in the state of nature, have the freedom to do anything they please.  But in a society with a government authority, government can limit rights & actions of people through laws.  If you refuse to follow these laws, like a hate speech law, the government will come to your home and use violence on you & lock you up. 

Let's all think about that for a second.  If we refuse to follow any law, armoured men will arrive at our homes, break open the door, and drag us away and violently assault or shoot us if we don't comply.  All laws are decrees ordered to be complied through threat of violence by the state.  So that said, it shouldn't be up to citizens to justify why we should have a particular right, it ultimately should be up to legislators (maker of laws) to justify why our rights should be curtailed by force/threat of violence.

So, why should we have free speech?  Because we're born free in this world to do whatever the heck we want, unless our rights conflict with the rights of others.  Why should free speech be sometimes curtailed?  Because some speech (ie: threats of violence) can clash with the rights of others, ie: to be free from threats of violence.

And yes you could argue this is a libertarian argument, but it's more accurately an argument for liberalism in general.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 19, 2017, 07:00:20 am

Absolute nonsense.  Conservative speakers have been banned or stopped via the heckler's veto from speaking at universities/colleges across the continent because they say things that offend liberal-minded students and faculty.

Fair enough.  But I also didn't include Colin Kaepernick as an example (or something like the Dixie Chicks case) because it's a branch of freedom of speech.

Quote
Speech, expression, free thought is a natural right we all are born with.   People, in the state of nature, have the freedom to do anything they please.  But in a society with a government authority, government can limit rights & actions of people through laws.  If you refuse to follow these laws, like a hate speech law, the government will come to your home and use violence on you & lock you up. 

True.  In nature, people can say what they like, or steal or murder to their own delight.

Quote
Let's all think about that for a second.  If we refuse to follow any law, armoured men will arrive at our homes, break open the door, and drag us away and violently assault or shoot us if we don't comply.  All laws are decrees ordered to be complied through threat of violence by the state.  So that said, it shouldn't be up to citizens to justify why we should have a particular right, it ultimately should be up to legislators (maker of laws) to justify why our rights should be curtailed by force/threat of violence.

I would characterize the justification of why we should have a right, or conversely a law, as a public discussion.  I think citizens may demand rights or laws, and legislators may respond or vice-versa but ok.

Quote
So, why should we have free speech?  Because we're born free in this world to do whatever the heck we want, unless our rights conflict with the rights of others.  Why should free speech be sometimes curtailed?  Because some speech (ie: threats of violence) can clash with the rights of others, ie: to be free from threats of violence.

Yes, this is a good reason as to why we should have free speech but not why we do.  The reason why we do is because it works.  More below.

Quote
And yes you could argue this is a libertarian argument, but it's more accurately an argument for liberalism in general.

Yes.  The only thing we're leaving out is the utility of this right.  Tribal societies believe themselves to be special, and we are no different.  As such, the rights and mechanics we have evolved in our open, democratic, and economically 'advanced' societies are seen and taught as a point of pride.  Of course we should be proud of these things, but we need to understand why they work so we can continue to improve them.

Democracy is another example of something that people vapidly parrot as a good thing, with no idea of why it's necessary, how it evolved, and what needs to happen to it to move it forward.  I don't expect the 80% of the masses to have any idea or participate in such a discussion but even then I fear that few of us understand what is happening.

Even Justin Trudeau has publicly stated that he admires China's system, as I am told anyway.   We are admiring authoritarian states because they are better at mobilizing against large common problems quickly (they are), and they have been better to their middle classes (they are).  But we can repeat to ourselves that we are 'free' I suppose.

It's vanity.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 19, 2017, 08:57:32 am
Yes, this is a good reason as to why we should have free speech but not why we do.  The reason why we do is because it works.  More below.

Yes.  The only thing we're leaving out is the utility of this right.  Tribal societies believe themselves to be special, and we are no different.  As such, the rights and mechanics we have evolved in our open, democratic, and economically 'advanced' societies are seen and taught as a point of pride.  Of course we should be proud of these things, but we need to understand why they work so we can continue to improve them.

The utility of this right isn't relevant.  As with all rights, we should be free to do whatever the heck we want as a base starting point, and our actions should be limited by law when what we do infringes on the rights of others.

The entire point & history of all human rights is to protect people from abuses of power by government. This is what our Charter is for, if you look through it.  There's a long history going back millennia even in the West (ie: monarchies) of governments abusing their power, shutting people up they want to silence (like people criticizing the government), throwing people in jail without charge or trial, and generally doing whatever authoritarian stuff they want.  Since the Magna Carta, human rights laws have been created to curtail these government abuses.  ie: 1688 Glorious Revolution, French Revolution, the US Bill of Rights (to protect against tyranny of British monarchy).  People in virtually all developing countries don't have the rights we have because they're controlled by despot leaders.  Luckily western countries rebelled against our tyrant leaders long ago & put in checks against their power in the form of rights.
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on November 19, 2017, 09:32:17 am
The utility of this right isn't relevant.  As with all rights, we should be free to do whatever the heck we want as a base starting point, and our actions should be limited by law when what we do infringes on the rights of others.

Ok, so you are saying I don't have a right to talk about this ?  I feel like it's more relevant than whether free expression feels good or not, as the latter point is just obvious and pedestrian.

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The entire point & history of all human rights is to protect people from abuses of power by government.

That's an 18th century view of 'history' I guess.  Government, however you define it, is about group leadership making decisions.  Discussion of human rights came long after silt-dredging tribes in Mesopotamia evolved into city states but ok.

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There's a long history going back millennia even in the West (ie: monarchies) of governments abusing their power, shutting people up they want to silence (like people criticizing the government), throwing people in jail without charge or trial, and generally doing whatever authoritarian stuff they want.

Ok, and you are telling me this why ?  Is it relevant or is this a venting ?

I don't dispute the value of being able to express myself but understanding the utility of it is key to modifying and applying these rights, evolving them over time.   
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: kimmy on August 31, 2019, 12:02:52 pm
"Your Ward News" lands James Sears in jail for a year on charges of promotion of hatred against an identifiable group.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/pa7bw7/james-sears-editor-of-canadas-most-racist-paper-ygets-year-in-prison-for-promoting-hate-your-ward-news

 -k
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: MH on August 31, 2019, 01:33:28 pm
"Your Ward News" lands James Sears in jail for a year on charges of promotion of hatred against an identifiable group.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/pa7bw7/james-sears-editor-of-canadas-most-racist-paper-ygets-year-in-prison-for-promoting-hate-your-ward-news

 -k

Actual hate crime.... that's some ground zero stupidity there....
Title: Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
Post by: Granny on September 01, 2019, 06:10:18 pm
Actual hate crime.... that's some ground zero stupidity there....
Ya.
Reading through the thread, I see people referring to "hate speech laws", but we don't actually have any such laws.
The relevant laws are Publicly Inciting or Wilfully Promoting hatred (as in these convictions) against an identifiable group of people.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html

These charges are not flung about lightly, but require substantial investigation and must be approved by the Attorney General.
I believe I saw data indicating that just over 100 Section 319 charges were laid across Canada in 2018, mostly 'Wilfull promotion' as that generally refers to written or online material. 'Public Incitement' (public speeches, rallies, etc) is a little more difficult to investigate.

Threats, physical assaults, etc. are crimes in themselves, but where racial, anti-gay, etc hatred is a motivating factor, a hate crime designation can be added and leads to more severe sentencing.

So we have laws against Incitement and Promotion of hatred, and other crimes with a hate component as an exacerbating factor.