Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: MH on November 17, 2017, 06:29:53 am


Title: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on November 17, 2017, 06:29:53 am
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/11/16/striking-faculty-reject-colleges-contract-offer.html

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New Democrats refused to allow the introduction and passage of back-to-work legislation meaning it could be well into next week before students can return.

The influence of conservatives in these forums have sharpened my eyes towards Liberal bias in media (thought not, apparently, mixed metaphors).  As such, it's telling that the NDP's apparent misstep on refusing to meet to end the strike is getting very large coverage by The Star and The CBC.

Whether or not you agree that these organs are going to bat to get the bat (Kathleen Wynne) re-elected, at least do yourself a favour and keep an eye out, hmm ?
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: SirJohn on November 17, 2017, 09:40:54 am
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/11/16/striking-faculty-reject-colleges-contract-offer.html

The influence of conservatives in these forums have sharpened my eyes towards Liberal bias in media (thought not, apparently, mixed metaphors).  As such, it's telling that the NDP's apparent misstep on refusing to meet to end the strike is getting very large coverage by The Star and The CBC.

Whether or not you agree that these organs are going to bat to get the bat (Kathleen Wynne) re-elected, at least do yourself a favour and keep an eye out, hmm ?

Anyone with an ounce of political acumen knew that if the vote failed there would be back to work legislation. Why the union is professing shock and outrage is beyond me. I'm fairly sure they were counting on it. It's been clear that the bad publicity was mounting against the Liberal's non-action, and the only reason they put off the legislation as long as they did was pressure from the teachers unions which contribute so much money and manpower to their election campaigns.

As for the Star, it's the only news organization in Canada, to my knowledge, which has a political mandate requiring that it support liberal, progressive values. As far as I know it has always supported the Liberal party, through thick and thin, without regard to facts or situations. The CBC of course, is the CBC. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: cybercoma on November 17, 2017, 01:18:58 pm
If you're running a college and you know that the government will legislate the teachers back to work, then what motivation would you have to negotiate contracts in good faith? The employees are forced to work for you whether they agree with their employment contract or not. This is always a shitty move by the government, but it's particularly shitty when it's for non-essential services.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: TimG on November 17, 2017, 01:56:54 pm
If you're running a college and you know that the government will legislate the teachers back to work, then what motivation would you have to negotiate contracts in good faith? The employees are forced to work for you whether they agree with their employment contract or not. This is always a shitty move by the government, but it's particularly shitty when it's for non-essential services.
There can never be good faith bargaining in the public sector because the unions always make demands that require governments to increase taxes or cut other programs. If unions would accept that the only money on the table is money that has already been allocated in the budget then there would be no need for back to work legislation.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: SirJohn on November 17, 2017, 03:18:29 pm
If you're running a college and you know that the government will legislate the teachers back to work, then what motivation would you have to negotiate contracts in good faith? The employees are forced to work for you whether they agree with their employment contract or not. This is always a shitty move by the government, but it's particularly shitty when it's for non-essential services.

What you say is true of the colleges is also true of the union. And if I had paid tuition and dedicated a few years of my life to getting an education (which I did) I would most strenuously disagree with you about whether their job was essential or not. The particular issue the teachers seem to be most excised about is 'academic freedom'. I don't understand why an employee should have ANY freedom about how their job is done, let alone how they can insist upon it. You don't want to use the textbook the college wants you to use? Feel free to quit and go elsewhere.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:04:16 am
  As far as I know it has always supported the Liberal party, through thick and thin, without regard to facts or situations. 

No, they supported the NDP at least once, and maybe twice in the past.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:06:40 am
To be fair, we have to look at the issues in each case.  TimG makes a general case about the public service, however I heard the union say it was about 'academic freedom' which conservatives would theoretically fall behind.  But that could just be lies.

If we care enough (probably not) we would have to look at those issues.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on November 18, 2017, 08:10:59 am
First off I declare my bias. I have taught at over 15 colleges in Ontario over a 17 year span including George Brown, Centennial, Sheridan, Humber, Seneca, St. Lawrence, Algoma University and  10 private colleges.

Colleges started off as vocational institutions to teach hard skills, i.e., air conditioning, natural gas piping and maintenance, plumbing, culinary arts-cooking, photography, construction and mechanical skills, nursing, x-ray technician, and places to get industry designations like Chartered Human Resources Professional.

The Colleges then wanted to make more money so began one by  one adding social sciences, humanities which their original mandate did not include.

Colleges at one point had faculty like universities that through their unions had seniority which meant, each year they would get an increase in salary and have relative job security and there was little faculty turn over.

To avoid increase in pay, the universities began hiring part-timers. Their pretense was, the instructors full time had grown complacent and were lazy.

In some cases that was true of course. In other cases it was not and what in fact was happening is the colleges were in competition with one another for students so by hiring part-timers, they could then say to the students, if you don't like these part-timers, tell us and we will pressure them into giving you better marks or we will not hire them back.

Thus the colleges implemented a survey system and when students made bad surveys, the teachers were brought in and told oh your surveys are bad, bye bye....so instructors learned, give all the students 90's, look the other way and just pass them and you keep getting taken back.

Now please understand this is the reality of colleges today. The marks mean nothing. The reality of teaching in colleges today is students show up with no pen, paper, book but with an attitude when they do show up.

They tell instructors "hey I paid for this I will do what I want". Students sit in class playing on the cell phone, talking over teachers, walking in and out late and some skip all classes, show up for the exam or test and complain its too hard.

Its at the point instructors review the answers that will be on the tests and students still don't answer the tests properly.

Colleges in a rush to expand and make money, created all kinds of faculties and then to compete with other colleges let the students now run the marking-as long as the administrators have full enrollments, and no drop outs, they make millions.

Go look at the number of students in each college. Ask where the money comes from to fund these students and what they are learning-go look at the curriculum.

First off foreign students are cash cows. Immigration consultants bring them in by the tens of thousands telling them they get a 20 hour a week work visa if they attend college. These students work 40 hours and fall asleep in class but this is how they get to Canada and survive.

The born in Canada college students are playing the system to get inflated meaningless marks.

Now if you want to use a college for vocational job training and industry designation training it works. There are also dedicated good students and dedicated teachers of course.

However to pretend this is about faculty wanting money is b.s. Its not about money and never was. Money is not the issue. Its about how teachers are hired and how they are being pressured to work on temporary contracts where they have no control over the integrity of their marks and are threatened constantly.

Its about being paid for two hours a class but expected to work for free marking 60 to 80 papers for free.

Its about being paid two hours to teach but expected to work for free creating exams and curriculum.

Its about people with PH.d's who have never worked and only know research being offered $45,000 a year with no benefits of any kind and no holiday pay. Its about hiring inexperienced people who have no idea what they are teaching because you can may them $20, $30 an hour.

The Liberals are passing back to work legislation for cynical reasons. They will pose as saviours for the students and instructors ordering back pay to instructors for the weeks they did not work.

They will set up some phony committees to discuss the above concerns I mentioned and do nothing.

Please understand you have colleges which huge budgets and mini kingdoms who don't give a damn about students or faculty or their support employees and are being driven by executives who make huge bucks turning colleges into  mini empires.

Most colleges in Ontario are linking up to universities or trying to become universities.

Many community colleges set up campuses through private colleges to avoid unions in their entirety.

What I am telling you is the quality of courses and meaning of marks is suffering in this rush by college administrators to expand rather than focus on quality education. The administrators are confusing large buildings with quality education and if you take the time to see where the profit is going its not going to faculty and its not assuring students are getting better education-its going to build bigger and more campuses.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on November 18, 2017, 08:17:44 am
This brings some light into the situation - thanks.  I read your whole post. :)

It also sounds like the academic streams in this province need to be rebuilt from the ground up.  My parents pushed me to university as a path to a middle class lifestyle.  It worked, but it was based on flawed thinking.

There is/was a bias against work that had any manual/labour component whatsoever.  It's ridiculous because being a plumber requires people skills, problem solving and the willingness to make a lot of money.  Of course, I couldn't have done that as I am a theoretical animal through and through.

But education needs to take out the idea that 'smart' means better.  That will actually allow us to put 'smart' kids back in advanced streams where they can be challenged and excel, and put kids that can't do math into something that will develop them also.  I have had bosses who were brilliant at people skills, entrepreneurial whizzes and also drop-outs.

We are just waiting for the systems to collapse, but we should be electing visionaries who can start the process before that happens.

God damn, my soap box...
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: SirJohn on November 18, 2017, 10:11:52 am
Colleges started off as vocational institutions to teach hard skills, i.e., air conditioning, natural gas piping and maintenance, plumbing, culinary arts-cooking, photography, construction and mechanical skills, nursing, x-ray technician, and places to get industry designations like Chartered Human Resources Professional.

And here is the root of the problem. Because that is how they should have remained. They serve no other purpose. And those who take other course in them often don't wind up getting any job because of it. Colleges should be teaching pipe welding and dental hygiene, not business administration. They should be teaching PC repair, not computer programming.

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Please understand you have colleges which huge budgets and mini kingdoms who don't give a damn about students or faculty or their support employees and are being driven by executives who make huge bucks turning colleges into  mini empires.

The pay rate for executives and College and university heads is obscene compared to their skills. Most earn more than the prime minister, and certainly earn much more than, say, the federal public service heads who have many tens of thousands of employees and budgets into the tens of billions of dollars under their scope. There should be no foreign students, no temporary teachers, and the curriculum should be drastically pruned back.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: cybercoma on November 18, 2017, 06:18:43 pm
What you say is true of the colleges is also true of the union. And if I had paid tuition and dedicated a few years of my life to getting an education (which I did) I would most strenuously disagree with you about whether their job was essential or not. The particular issue the teachers seem to be most excised about is 'academic freedom'. I don't understand why an employee should have ANY freedom about how their job is done, let alone how they can insist upon it. You don't want to use the textbook the college wants you to use? Feel free to quit and go elsewhere.
Universities are not colleges. Academic freedom in university is very important when you have a government firing scientists for not doctoring their findings to match the “official” positions. It was also important when the American government was rounding up Marxists. More broadly, academics need the freedom to study controversial topics and come to critical conclusions without fear of losing their livelihood.

I don’t know what academic freedom means at the college level.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: TimG on November 18, 2017, 06:42:32 pm
More broadly, academics need the freedom to study controversial topics and come to critical conclusions without fear of losing their livelihood.
Of course that notion is tossed out the window today if academics want to study things that the new Macarthites considers to be unacceptable like Jordan Peterson who may not have lost his job but he has been subject to all manner of pressure from university administrators and had some of grants revoked by his "peers" sitting on committees that award them. A TA at WLU was disciplined for showing an interview with Peterson from TVO explaining his views.

IOW - I have zero sympathy for professors demanding academic freedom if they did not protest loudly about the treatment of Peterson.

 
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: cybercoma on November 18, 2017, 09:05:49 pm
Yet Peterson is still employed making a good living.

Also what you call pressure is criticism and that’s the foundation of free speech.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on November 19, 2017, 09:32:56 am

IOW - I have zero sympathy for professors demanding academic freedom if they did not protest loudly about the treatment of Peterson.

It sounds like college professors aren't protected if they want to do so.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on November 21, 2017, 02:33:04 pm
Universities are not colleges. Academic freedom in university is very important when you have a government firing scientists for not doctoring their findings to match the “official” positions. It was also important when the American government was rounding up Marxists. More broadly, academics need the freedom to study controversial topics and come to critical conclusions without fear of losing their livelihood.

I don’t know what academic freedom means at the college level.

Cyber to be fair to you the term "academic freedom" at the college level is used by many people in many different ways within management and academic circles. Its a wide open definition depending on who uses it and in what context.

My best answer to you it could mean just what I said, the ability of instructors to not get fired because they give low marks or fail students. It can also mean the right of instructors to choose which texts to use. It could mean the right for college instructors to state to students when they disagree what something says in a text. It could mean those things. I hear it mostly in those contexts.

I will concede having taught 17 years SALARY is one issue. That's always an issue. I must confess I teach at a private college where I get much less because I like teaching and if I apply to community colleges they will hire someone much younger than me thinking they can pay less since in some professions they have to pay according to how many years you have been in the profession.

I was never under the impression salary for faculty has ever been a tough issue-its always  been seniority. Administration complained faculty set in their ways and bad habits were safe.

That may have been the case in some instances yes. However the administrators by getting in bed with students to make sure enrollment stays high was a serious mistake its made a farse of the non technical programs.

All that said, its hard to fake your competency with plumbing, hands on technical and vocational skills. In reality they all are a pass fail kind of thing. You either learn them or you don't. You can't fake your knowledge as a teacher or student. However and I say this honestly about what I teach, human resources, law, business, there is a sort of artificial teaching in the sense we are not hands on using our hands, we are more theoretical so marking becomes more subjective in assignments or we have to do objective questioning. We can't test someone by asking them to put a gas connection together.

I am sure you get what I say. I am trying to concede faculty are not all perfect, students are pains in the ass unrealistic and also very dedicated and with due respect, after 17 years in college and universities, higher education administration politics is a friggin maze of lies, illusions, territory and empire building and may I say corruption at the top when it comes to bonuses.

I also think and I am sorry to say this, a lack of cohesion between provincial Ministries in charge of colleges and universities and the federal Immigration ministry has created huge loopholes of entry to get work permits using colleges as cover.

All that said, I personally see all these issues not particular to any one political party or ideology. I have lived through NDP, Liberal, PC, Liberal and they all made mistakes provincially.

I would ideally like to see incoming students  being equipped with skills to survive in the years to come and contribute. I hope I am not seeing an unrealistic foundation and recipe for failure and permanent underclass for some with no proper skills.

Some days I see some very good and motivated students, other days I mean my Lord I can only see government dependents coming from such people. I think though its wrong to generalize. Many people who look like they are going to fail surprise people and vice versa. I just try stay positive in the face of students. They have enough pressures. I push them to be on time, dump the cell phone and study but I appreciate some of them are working long hours and have a lot of uncertainty and stress.

If I can just once a day get one student to think they make a difference in life, that is a great day. I sound more cynical then I am. I do have faith in students,  fellow faculty and administrators. They all have good as well as bad people.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: cybercoma on November 21, 2017, 04:52:06 pm
The problem is that universities are becoming corporatized and it doesn’t work. Knowledge production is like widget production. It also benefits students, especially graduates in a research capacity, to have long-term faculty with major research projects to support the students’ work at that level. At the undergrad level, they’ve replaced tenured profs with precariously employed part timers who make a damned pittance. Undergrads aren’t getting the best education when some of their “professors” only make $6000 per course (max. 6 courses per year, if they can even find that many...they can’t) and have to carry multiple jobs to stay above water. People outside academia think it’s all roses. Those days are nearly gone. The profs making 6 figures have been tenured for decades and are nearing retirement. When they leave, they’re replaced with part timers who are struggling to survive and can’t possibly provide a decent education to students when they have no job stability.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: SirJohn on November 21, 2017, 06:52:07 pm
The problem is that universities are becoming corporatized and it doesn’t work. Knowledge production is like widget production. It also benefits students, especially graduates in a research capacity, to have long-term faculty with major research projects to support the students’ work at that level. At the undergrad level, they’ve replaced tenured profs with precariously employed part timers who make a damned pittance. Undergrads aren’t getting the best education when some of their “professors” only make $6000 per course (max. 6 courses per year, if they can even find that many...they can’t) and have to carry multiple jobs to stay above water. People outside academia think it’s all roses. Those days are nearly gone. The profs making 6 figures have been tenured for decades and are nearing retirement. When they leave, they’re replaced with part timers who are struggling to survive and can’t possibly provide a decent education to students when they have no job stability.

And this is one of the aspects of paying too high a salary. Colleges and universities couldn't afford enough professors to go around. That's made worse by university practice of not requiring professors to actually teach more than a few courses. I'm all for universities as places of research, but... for English professors?
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: cybercoma on November 22, 2017, 06:45:47 am
And this is one of the aspects of paying too high a salary. Colleges and universities couldn't afford enough professors to go around. That's made worse by university practice of not requiring professors to actually teach more than a few courses. I'm all for universities as places of research, but... for English professors?
So are you just going to decide what the humanities are worth? Should we not pay historians as much either? For the record, English professors are paid less than business and STEM professors for the most part and especially law professors. But the problem that I'm describing is across the board.

Again, you believe these people make too much money, when I can tell you that a pre-tenured professor in an Arts Faculty just starting out makes between $60,000-70,000 per year at many universities in this country. Are you really going to tell me that this is too much money for someone who has three separate degrees, one of which they contributed new knowledge to their discipline through a doctoral dissertation, a teaching portfolio at the university level, as well as several peer-reviewed publications and conference presentations?

You know teaching is only one part of academics' work too, I hope. They're also required to do research, which makes unique contributions to their field of study. On top of this, they're required to do service for the academy, which includes sitting on boards, mentoring graduate students, peer-reviewing research, and communicating not only the results of their research but the most up to date research in their field. Almost every professor I know works from the time they get up, until they go to bed at night with all the responsibilities they have.

Oh but they have sabbaticals, you might say. Professors are required to submit a proposal for research, which often involves securing external research funding (that's part of service too). They're expected to complete their project during their sabbatical. They're also expected to continue to peer-review, present at conferences, and sit on their boards when they're on sabbatical. The sabbatical is from teaching courses only. The private sector pays people handsomely just to do research, which is one third of a professor's responsibility.

I'm really not convinced that the people who complain about professors' salaries really know what goes into getting their jobs and what's expected of them. Hell, the interview process for a professor is literally a two-day affair. They interview with the deans of the faculty, they interview with the department they're going to teach in, they interview with the executives of the university. They're expected to give a presentation of their most current research. Often times they're asked to do a Q&A session with graduate students in the department where they're applying.

So do profs make too much? Probably not.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: segnosaur on November 22, 2017, 10:21:42 am
So are you just going to decide what the humanities are worth? Should we not pay historians as much either? For the record, English professors are paid less than business and STEM professors for the most part and especially law professors. But the problem that I'm describing is across the board.

Again, you believe these people make too much money, when I can tell you that a pre-tenured professor in an Arts Faculty just starting out makes between $60,000-70,000 per year at many universities in this country. Are you really going to tell me that this is too much money for someone who has three separate degrees, one of which they contributed new knowledge to their discipline through a doctoral dissertation, a teaching portfolio at the university level, as well as several peer-reviewed publications and conference presentations?
It depends....

The average salary in Canada is roughly $50k. And 10 years ago, the average salary with someone with a higher than a bachelors was around $73k in Ottawa (higher than in some of the smaller cities.)If a new college professor in the arts is starting out with a salary of $60-70k, then their starting salary is already near the average salary of people with similar education (and already above the average salary for the rest of us). Furthermore, that college professor will likely have more job security and benefits than others in non-academic careers (even if they don't have tenure, they are still in a more stable position than someone working in business.)

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labor51b-eng.htm
http://yackler.ca/blog/2016/04/06/much-canadian-jobs-pay-average-salaries-region-industry/

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On top of this, they're required to do service for the academy, which includes sitting on boards, mentoring graduate students, peer-reviewing research, and communicating not only the results of their research but the most up to date research in their field. Almost every professor I know works from the time they get up, until they go to bed at night with all the responsibilities they have.
I taught college for a few years (in the computer field). No research, but I did have to participate in things like sitting on boards, doing student reviews with other professors, etc.

Yes, there were times of the year when there was a lot of pressure (requiring long hours, extra work, etc.; during exams, when first preparing course material) But there were other times of the year when things were a lot easier (and I was basically spending half the time I would have otherwise... first few weeks of teaching a course I had done before and already taught before, between exams, etc.) The thing to say about the work load is that it was inconsistent... sometimes higher than average, sometimes lower. Simply pointing to the highest amount of work (i.e. "look at the overtime they have to put in at exam time") gives just as flawed view of the work as someone who says "look at all the time they have off".

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So do profs make too much? Probably not.
I guess the big question to ask is... how much would that professor be making in other (non-academic) fields? If someone is in computers or engineering, they could probably command a high salary in the private sector. Their pay as a college professor would need to be higher to lure them away from the business world. If someone is a professor in art, or english? Their private sector options are a lot more limited.

I think there's also a tendency to judge the value of professors based on what their area of expertise contributes to society. Someone in engineering/computers/medicine? Well, we all live in buildings that we'd rather not have collapse on us, and take medicine that we hope can cure us. We can easily see how it impacts us on a day to day basis.  Some humanities (like history or economics) may not seem as critical but we can still see some value in it. (i.e. we'd like to prevent the economy from collapsing.) On the other hand something like art or english? Most people just don't see much value in some English or Art professor writing a paper on some archane topic that will never impact anyone's lives.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on November 28, 2017, 07:12:33 am
Seg's last comments were dead on from what I have experienced. I appreciate Cyber's support for prof's in his comment. I would say to the no nonsense Sir John, yes we have to be realistic as prof's and not think we only teach 3 courses a semester. Tell you what. Right now I have 6 classes at 90 students each. I have to use objective tests marked by a scantron. To enter the marks into the system takes about a week. What really is the time consuming mind boggle is that 70 of the students in each class have an excuse why they failed and want their test done over after never having come to class. The problem is they run to the administration who tells you give them as many make up exams as they want. Then there are those caught cheating who demand re-writes and are given them by the admin. Then there are the whiners who tell you they will not settle for anything more than a 90 and they will file a complaint about you. Its a lovely time of year at this point.

You have to maintain an insane perspective of humour some days. Finally I tell you what. I am the first to admit this. I think it is crucial we teach students how to critically analyze and read and write. They are not doing these basics. They are using the computer and cell phone to avoid these skills. We are raising a generation of illiterate people due to Pike's syndrome as they call it, over conditioning people NOT to think or question. During my conspiracy hours late at night I think its being done as part of a mass indoctrination by Satan. Then I wake up and start a new day. Moral of the story-art, music, physical education, English, Humanities, please don't under-estimate their importance but maybe their focus should be in high school. I would never suggest teaching law or psychology as I do is equivalent to say medicine. I do not see what I do as saving lives. I have no ego. I just wonder though, does anyone know what power we have to change the world with just one student who learns anything because they were inspired to create in no matter what the subject was?
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on March 16, 2018, 09:56:08 am
Same issue resurrected again at York University and it doesn't seem like it will end easily.

I have to tell you knowing some of the faculty there, the entire administration and faculty are mired in dysfunction and both are to blame.

On the issue of part-timers it continues at all community and private colleges and universities and is getting worse.

All of them are moving to a model where faculty are part-time and put on contracts where you are paid by the hour only and more faculty are hired then is needed to make
you feel expendable.

Then the politics begins. If we try  fail students for not attending the majority of classes we are told they do not have to come to classes. If we give a zero because an assignment is not given in on time we are told we can not do that and must make the paper no matter how late it is and not discriminate and not ask the students why its late or if they say its because they were sick or had a family problem we must believe them with non proof. Then if they hand us an assignment that is poorly written with grammar and spelling mistakes, incorrect citations and footnotes or just out and out plagiarism we are told to take into consideration that students are not necessarily literate so we must accommodate and still mark them. When we give exams if they fail, we are told to give a remedial exam. When they fail that, we are told to give yet another exam.

Students evaluate us teachers. This means when they do not like our marks or we tell them to turn off their cell phones, take notes, show up on time, and not walk in the class late, do not talk when we are lecturing-they write in their evaluations we are intolerant and bad  teachers and then we are shown such evaluations and told sorry we are not taking you back.

Welcome to 2018 where a degree now means very little given the above politics.

Next, go on Indeed or a job web site. All the community colleges now ask for PH.d's and offer them 45,000 a year. That's normal now. Its also nonsensical for another reason. Ph.d's are for people who have done research so they have not taught or worked in real life. Community colleges were supposed to be taught by instructors with practical experience. Its no longer the case. You get PH.d's out of work desperate for a job now teaching who have zero experience in what they teach but the community colleges want them for appearance.

Take a look. Community colleges were created to provide vocational and practical education to upgrade and develop existing skills or provide hands on technical skills. Not anymore. They have become bloated layers of bureaucracy competing for government funds by recruiting as many students as possible and not failing them because if they fail them, their percentage of funding goes down.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: ?Impact on March 16, 2018, 10:02:35 am
Community colleges were created to provide vocational and practical education to upgrade and develop existing skills or provide hands on technical skills. Not anymore. They have become bloated layers of bureaucracy competing for government funds by recruiting as many students as possible and not failing them because if they fail them, their percentage of funding goes down.

So who is addressing community colleges in their platform?
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: MH on March 16, 2018, 10:27:37 am
I went to a job interview at YorkU in their IT department.  From the interview I could tell it was a shitshow wherein they thought **** was a great thing.  They were actually bragging about their ****.  I found it hard to sit through the interview.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on March 16, 2018, 04:34:02 pm
This brings some light into the situation - thanks.  I read your whole post. :)

It also sounds like the academic streams in this province need to be rebuilt from the ground up.  My parents pushed me to university as a path to a middle class lifestyle.  It worked, but it was based on flawed thinking.

There is/was a bias against work that had any manual/labour component whatsoever.  It's ridiculous because being a plumber requires people skills, problem solving and the willingness to make a lot of money.  Of course, I couldn't have done that as I am a theoretical animal through and through.

But education needs to take out the idea that 'smart' means better.  That will actually allow us to put 'smart' kids back in advanced streams where they can be challenged and excel, and put kids that can't do math into something that will develop them also.  I have had bosses who were brilliant at people skills, entrepreneurial whizzes and also drop-outs.

We are just waiting for the systems to collapse, but we should be electing visionaries who can start the process before that happens.

God damn, my soap box...

Lol but you are not verbose.
Title: Re: Ontario College Strike - Back to Work Legislation
Post by: Rue on March 16, 2018, 04:36:44 pm
This thread has added interest now York is on strike. I read it back. Its accurate.