Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: MH on November 13, 2017, 07:35:16 pm


Title: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on November 13, 2017, 07:35:16 pm
Loud sigh.

http://superheroes.theringer.com/

50 best Superhero films ?  I saw #3 when it came out.  It was ... ok.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: SirJohn on November 13, 2017, 09:18:46 pm
Loud sigh.

http://superheroes.theringer.com/

50 best Superhero films ?  I saw #3 when it came out.  It was ... ok.

Maybe the discussion should be why people find ordinary life and people so boring they throng to see stories about superheros....
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on November 13, 2017, 11:53:01 pm
Maybe the discussion should be why people find ordinary life and people so boring they throng to see stories about superheros....

Well, Michael and I discussed that at great length in the "Wonder Woman" thread this summer.

Here's my take:
https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/wonder-woman/?message=3128

To summarize my thoughts in a few bullet points:

 -while the superhero genre is very popular right now, it has actually been around for over 80 years.

 -stuff doesn't survive for that long by accident. If it didn't connect with people in a way that was more than fleeting, it would have been long forgotten. In culture, as in ecology, stuff that has survived has survived for a reason.

 -if we understand what that reason is, we understand something about ourselves.

 -the superhero genre is actually just the latest manifestation of something far older. Cultures around the world and throughout time have created tall tales around larger-than-life folk-heroes. The heroes of ancient Greek myths, or Gilgamesh, or Paul Bunyan and Babe The Blue Ox, or the Native American tales about Whiskeyjack, or the Chinese legend of the Five Brothers, or folk tales based around real figures like Robin Hood and John Henry.   It transcends culture and geography.   Superheroes, in one form or another, have been with us for millennia.

The idea speaks to us, somehow.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on November 14, 2017, 05:23:31 am
Ok on it being around for a long while, however why is it popular now ?  Demographics probably have a lot to do with hit, and Hollywood's need for big spectacular box-office movies.  It's the opposite of the economics of the "Raging Bulls and Easy Riders" era, where they would bet on small films that could earn spectacularly.  Instead they bet on huge films that can earn 5X investment or 10X.

Also, to point out that trends happen:

The magic era on TV in the 1960s had magical and fantastical sitcoms like I Dream of Jeannie, Bewitched, My Favourite Martian all over the tube.  Shortly after, it switched to country sitcoms like The Beverly Hillbillies (which was on TWICE a week) Green Acres, Petticoat Junction.

After the movie Dark Victory was a hit in 1939, there was a trend of movies with SAD endings !

Lots more examples.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on November 14, 2017, 08:33:18 am
Loud sigh.

http://superheroes.theringer.com/

50 best Superhero films ?  I saw #3 when it came out.  It was ... ok.
My immediate thoughts are that Wonder Woman and Logan are ranked too low.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on November 14, 2017, 08:38:02 am
Also Hellboy....holy crap.

Who were the chuckleheads responding to "rewatchability" and "timelessness." The Ringer should fire them.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: SirJohn on November 14, 2017, 06:45:02 pm
Ok on it being around for a long while, however why is it popular now ?  Demographics probably have a lot to do with hit, and Hollywood's need for big spectacular box-office movies.  It's the opposite of the economics of the "Raging Bulls and Easy Riders" era, where they would bet on small films that could earn spectacularly.  Instead they bet on huge films that can earn 5X investment or 10X.

Business loves sure things. Hollywood is a business, and they love sequels.
People like familiarity, and having a level of reassurance that the movie will be entertaining. That's why actors who aren't all that good are such huge stars. You might not know what the movie was about (unless its a sequel), but you know Arnold Schwarzenegger played a certain type of character (or Chuck Norris, or Bruce Willis, or the Rock).

There's also the larger than life aspect of superheroes or spaceships with laser weapons or magicians and wizards. It pulls out of the drab and mundane into a different world of magic and light and the fantastical - like we wish we lived in.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on November 14, 2017, 08:09:14 pm
Hollywood crashed itself once on big budget flops in the early 60s.  That led to a period where they gambled on small pictures, and 1 in 20 paid off big.

The game changes, but it's still a game.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 14, 2017, 08:46:16 pm
Maybe the discussion should be why people find ordinary life and people so boring they throng to see stories about superheros....

The last 30+ years, blockbuster movies have been dominated by the fantasy & sci-fi genres.  People move this crap.  Name a blockbuster, 95% chance it will be in either of those 2 genres, so these genres are huge money-makers.  Superhero movies have taken off because they're untapped IP usually with up to 50+ of street cred in the comic realm that can be made into sci-fi/fantasy movies.  It's not new IP that can be a risk financially, it already has a longtime nerd fanbase that can be exploited.

Let's look at all the blockbusters that came before the recent superhero craze.  Let's take the 2000's.  Lord of the Rings, Star Wars prequels, Harry Potter, Avatar, Transformers etc.  It's all fantasy.  The 90's had Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, Independence Day, The Matrix.  The 80's you had Star Wars, ET, Back To The Future, Ghostbusters etc.  People love it.

Eventually, they'll run out of ideas & people will get a big overkill with all these superhero flicks and studios will have to search for other fantasy/sci-fi IP to make money from.  Superhero movies won't go away entirely though, they just won't make up every other blockbuster seemingly.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on November 14, 2017, 09:37:54 pm
It won't be a sudden stop, it'll be a gradual decline.   

For a while Twilight and The Hunger Games had inspired a whole bunch of imitators. For a while it worked, and it began to fade. The Hunger Games itself started experiencing declining returns as it continued... the last movie was still a big hit by any standard except its predecessors: it made $150 million less than the 2nd movie did.  Other movies in the genre slumped even harder.  The "Divergent" series was planned to have another movie, but the 3rd movie in the series sagged so badly that they didn't bother making another movie.  Stephanie Meyers tried to duplicate her "Twilight" success with a new franchise called "The Host"... but she only wrote one book in the series, and the movie tanked, and that was the end of it.  They had to make a "Mortal Instruments" movie franchise, but with the market already saturated with that kind of stuff, the film was a box office disaster and the planned sequels were cancelled. (the Mortal Instruments was instead rebooted as the "Shadowhunters" TV series, which I've written about here before, when I was writing about my morbid fascination with incredibly bad programs. Shadowhunters remains the single worst television series I've ever seen. Truly a masterwork, it's almost as if they said "you know, this is really shitty, but we need to try and make this even worse. Let's brainstorm what could turn this steaming piece of crap into total flaming dog diarrhea." But I digress.)

There's not going to be a day when they release a superhero movie and people say "wait, this is stupid" and nobody goes. It'll happen over a span of years.  As we already saw with Spiderman.  They made a bunch of Spiderman movies with Toby McGuire, then a few years later they decided to do a "reboot" and make a bunch more Spiderman movies with Andrew Garfield. Each made a little less than the last. And they fizzled out after a while.  They sold the rights back to Marvel/Disney, and by plugging the character into their "shared cinematic universe", they've revived interest in Spiderman for the time being.


And I think the "Marvel Cinematic Universe" concept has helped them avoid that pitfall. They might not make another Thor movie, or another Captain America or Iron Man movie. We'll see Thor and Cap and Iron Man again in the next Avengers movie, and after that who knows if they'll be back or not. But meanwhile they're using the popularity of their current crop of properties to build a next generation of characters that people aren't tired of yet.  We were introduced to "The Black Panther" in the last Avengers movie, and next year "The Black Panther" gets his own movie.

And the "Marvel" brand itself seems to have some marketing value. "Dr Strange" and "The Guardians of the Galaxy" hadn't previously appeared in any of the Marvel films, but audiences were willing to give them a chance, probably based to some degree on the established track record of previous Marvel films.  From "Iron Man" straight through to the current "Thor" release, almost all of these movies have all received highly positive reviews for delivering entertainment.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on December 05, 2017, 05:42:27 am
World is ending, then.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/4/16736356/star-trek-movie-quentin-tarantino-jj-abrams

Tarantino rumoured to do a Star Trek ?  This is about the worst movie news of the year for me.

1) I love Tarantino films, with many exceptions, but I still go to check them out.
2) I haven't seen a Star Trek in the cinema since the early 90s, when I saw 4? and 6?.  Garbage.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on December 15, 2017, 08:03:30 pm
Potentially terrible news for people who hate superhero movies, as Disney has just purchased 21st Century Fox Entertainment.

Some tiny piece of that 52 billion dollar acquisition are the TV and movie rights to the X-Men and Fantastic Four and related trademarks. That includes Deadpool as well.  Regaining the rights to all of the Marvel properties opens up all kinds of possibilities that comic-book fans have wanted to see for ages.

The Fantastic Four movies have been consistent box office flops, but the rights to Fantastic Four properties include the rights to iconic villains like Doctor Doom and Galactus.  And the X-men properties have immense possibilities.  The original Fox trilogy of X-men movies, starring Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen, among others, were instrumental in putting superhero movies back on the map.  Movies featuring Wolverine were also box office successes, and the recent Deadpool movie was a smash hit.

There will be challenges, to be sure.  Hugh Jackman is the only guy who has ever been Wolverine in live-action films, and it sounds like he's ready to hang up the adamantium claws.  I believe Jennifer Lawrence is finished her 3-movie contract in the role of "Mystique", which is good, because Mystique was supposed to be a recurring villain and not the star of the whole franchise, and making the whole thing revolve around J-Law is the main reason the recent run of X-men movies was underwhelming.  But those are minor bumps in the road.  It's hard to picture anybody other than Jackman as live-action Wolverine, but they'll figure it out somehow.

It's hard to foresee how they'll go about integrating the newly acquired properties into the existing "Marvel Cinematic Universe". Movies take a long time to make, so this might not make its way onto screens for a few years. They already have a couple of years worth of movies in production. One can only wonder if they're furiously editing scripts to try to fit additional characters in.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 15, 2017, 08:58:37 pm
Potentially terrible news for people who hate superhero movies, as Disney has just purchased 21st Century Fox Entertainment.

The Fantastic Four movies have been consistent box office flops, but the rights to Fantastic Four properties include the rights to iconic villains like Doctor Doom and Galactus.

Never been a big fan of the Fantastic Four, either comic or movies, but they have great supporting characters & villains like you say.  I think the biggest one will be Silver Surfer, a personal fav of mine.  Can't wait for his stand alone film, even though like a lot of people I'm getting a bit sick of the superhero movies, and some of the ones that people loved I thought were lame, like Avengers series, Iron Man, and Dr Strange (the worst cheesy jokes, Cumberbatch did such a bad job cuz of the dialogue, I was shocked).

Quote
And the X-men properties have immense possibilities.  The original Fox trilogy of X-men movies, starring Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen, among others, were instrumental in putting superhero movies back on the map.  Movies featuring Wolverine were also box office successes, and the recent Deadpool movie was a smash hit.

X-Men characters don't often interact in the comics with other parts of the Marvel universe since Xmen has more than enough characters there to keep up interesting stories, but X-Men is probably the most interesting Marvel franchise so will be fun to see what Disney does with those characters, even though they've been explored a ton already to mixed success.  Sad to see Jackman get too old for the part but I'm open to someone new if they get someone really good.  They did a great job recasting a lot of characters for X-Men First Class so it can be done.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on December 16, 2017, 08:45:33 am
Potentially terrible news for people who hate superhero movies, as Disney has just purchased 21st Century Fox Entertainment.

Why ? 

I still think that the superhero thing is a fad.  Like the NFL.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on December 17, 2017, 01:18:48 pm
Why ? 

Because having Marvel's most popular properties united under the same banner and in the same "cinematic universe" for the first time will almost certainly extend the lifespan of the genre's popularity.

I still think that the superhero thing is a fad.  Like the NFL.

The NFL? Yeah, that thing is going to go the way of the Hula Hoop any day now.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on February 16, 2018, 06:57:28 am
There's another one this weekend: Black Panther.

I am NOT going to see this, nor am I slightly interested in the impact but I AM wondering:

Is anybody on here interested ?   
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: ?Impact on February 16, 2018, 07:10:46 am
Is anybody on here interested ?

Casey Neistat gives it great reviews, thinks it is the best superhero movie since the Dark Knight (or something to that effect, watch his review and don't take my paraphrasing).
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2018, 07:35:23 am
There's another one this weekend: Black Panther.

I am NOT going to see this, nor am I slightly interested in the impact but I AM wondering:

Is anybody on here interested ?
I've read the first volume of the graphic novel reboot. It was written by Ta-Nehisi Coates, so I would highly recommend it. I'll be watching the movie, but not until it's released on video. Theater etiquette no longer exists. In my old age, I get grumpy at loud eaters, people shining their cellphones, and talking during movies.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 16, 2018, 09:29:37 am
There's another one this weekend: Black Panther.

I am NOT going to see this, nor am I slightly interested in the impact but I AM wondering:

Is anybody on here interested ?

I was not that interested in the movie, but after seeing the reviews I think I will see it at some point. As cyber says, it's received excellent reviews. Everybody who has seen it seems to think it's amazing. Scanning the Rotten Tomatoes top critics reveals comments like: "transcends its comic-book origins, achieving a mythic grandeur that's nothing short of exhilarating."  "transcends the superhero genre to emerge as an epic of operatic proportions."  "It's uniquely satisfying popcorn entertainment, a triumphant trifecta of subject matter, talent and timing."  "This is 2018's first great motion picture - a title that will surely be remembered when end of the year bests are discussed."

Obviously a big focus is that this movie is based around a black character, which is a first in the Marvel world.

One recalls our earlier discussion regarding Wonder Woman, and your question of "wouldn't this be more inspiring if this were a regular woman fighting for pay equity in an office building?"   No. It wouldn't.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: bcsapper on February 16, 2018, 10:23:31 am
I've only ever seen three or four superhero movies so I wasn't planning on being interested at all, but given the reviews I've seen so far, I'll give it a shot when it comes around on the TV.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: bcsapper on February 18, 2018, 12:35:23 pm
Apparently the new Peter Rabbit movie is absolutely horrific!

Would Peter Rabbit be considered a superhero?  I like to think so...
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on February 18, 2018, 12:52:08 pm
Everybody who has seen it seems to think it's amazing. Scanning the Rotten Tomatoes top critics reveals comments like:
Audience ratings on RT are only 76% compared to Jumanji, which was panned by the critics, has audience ratings of 90%. I tend to put more weight in the audience ratings myself.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 18, 2018, 01:13:26 pm
I’ll certainly watch it...    I just don’t get the whole “black culture” aspect to it.  It’s a Hollywood blockbuster sci-fi movie....    it’s not “Roots”.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 18, 2018, 01:14:50 pm
Audience ratings on RT are only 76% compared to Jumanji, which was panned by the critics, has audience ratings of 90%. I tend to put more weight in the audience ratings myself.

I don’t....   the “general public” is full of idiots.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on February 18, 2018, 01:25:54 pm
I don’t....   the “general public” is full of idiots.
People are not idiots because they don't share your taste in movies. Movies are not "better" because some self appointed movie snobs like them. The audiences provide feedback on the opinion of the subset of people that were interested enough in a movie to pay to see it. They tell us whether the walked away happy or disappointed or meh. This is useful data.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 18, 2018, 01:29:36 pm
Rotten tomato reviews have little correlation to movie quality it seems, especially superhero movies.  I thought Dr. Strange and The Avengers movies were horrible.  Logan and Deadpool were great.  IMDB ratings seem more accurate because the ratings are from regular people not professional arthouse snobs who will get publicly blasted as racist/sexism/homophobe etc if they give a bad review to a movie about a victim group.

I don't care if a movie stars or is made by black people or white people or women or men or gays or armless people or people with seasonal allergies, a good movie is a good movie.  People seem to like Black Panther so I might see it at some point, but I'm getting bored of this genre & I'm a huge comic nerd, I still haven't seen Wonder Woman which looked pretty good.

Apparently it's a major cultural event now when a superhero movie features a woman (Wonder Woman), or black Africans, these characters are several decades old I don't know why people give a **** but whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2018, 02:03:01 pm
Audience ratings on RT are only 76% compared to Jumanji, which was panned by the critics, has audience ratings of 90%. I tend to put more weight in the audience ratings myself.

Yes and no.

Audience reviews are from people who were already predisposed to go see the film.  So for example audience reviews from "Saw IV" reflect the opinions of people who are already inclined to go see movies in the kidnap-torture-dungeon genre.  A positive audience review might mean "Saw IV really takes the kidnap-torture-dungeon genre to a whole new level and is one of the best kidnap-torture-dungeon movies I've ever seen!" but is of little value to somebody who isn't predisposed to see that sort of thing.

Conversely, **** loyalists can also be the harshest critics. "Hilted lightsabre IMPRACTICAL!  Childhood RUINED!!" type rants seem to accompany every new Star Wars release, yet people continue to go see them in vast numbers.

In regard to superhero movies... a positive audience score reflects the views of people who were already inclined to go see superhero movies.  But right now superhero movies are pretty mainstream action-adventure entertainment, so that doesn't necessarily mean that the audience score comes just from comic-book nerds.  I am expecting that it comes mainly from people who wanted to go see an action-adventure movie, rather than **** comic book nerds.

The 24% not-positve audience reviews might come from people who thought the movie wasn't good, but I have a hunch that some of it might be "less talking, more punching" type sentiment.

For me, when it comes to "genre" movies, I tend to pay attention to mainstream critics.  Every once in a while a movie comes along, like "Guardians of the Galaxy" or "Wonder Woman" or "Deadpool" that generates a "wow!" reaction from mainstream critics. "wow! this is completely fresh and original!" or "wow! this is way better than I was expecting!" and those are the movies I enjoy watching as well.  "Black Panther" seems to be one of those "wow!" movies.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2018, 02:13:36 pm
Rotten tomato reviews have little correlation to movie quality it seems, especially superhero movies.  I thought Dr. Strange and The Avengers movies were horrible.  Logan and Deadpool were great.

Keep in mind that a Rotten Tomatoes score is just a ratio of positive reviews to negative reviews.  Black Panther has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of something like 95% right now, but that might mean that 19 critics gave it 2.5 stars out of 4, and one critic gave it 2.0 stars out of 4.  A very "meh" movie can get a very high RT score provided that most reviewers agree that it's at least a mildly entertaining "meh".

Apparently it's a major cultural event now when a superhero movie features a woman (Wonder Woman), or black Africans, these characters are several decades old I don't know why people give a **** but whatever floats your boat.

The characters might have been around for many decades, but nobody has ever actually made a movie about them that made any money.  Before Wonder Woman, the last female superhero movie was a Supergirl movie sometime in the early 1980s, and it did so poorly that nobody has ever tried again.  As for a black superhero, there's been sidekicks like Falcon-Suit Guy or Replacement Iron Man Guy, but never the lead. Unless you count "Blade", but probably most people didn't even know Blade is a comic book and just thought it was a movie about Wesley Snipes beating the crap out of vampires.

The notion that you could make a Black Panther movie or a Wonder Woman movie and people would actually go to the theatre and pay money to watch it is a relatively recent discovery for Hollywood, and one that goes against decades of conventional industry wisdom.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on February 18, 2018, 02:17:04 pm
Rotten tomato reviews have little correlation to movie quality it seems, especially superhero movies.  I thought Dr. Strange and The Avengers movies were horrible.  Logan and Deadpool were great.  IMDB ratings seem more accurate because the ratings are from regular people not professional arthouse snobs who will get publicly blasted as racist/sexism/homophobe etc if they give a bad review to a movie about a victim group.

I don't care if a movie stars or is made by black people or white people or women or men or gays or armless people or people with seasonal allergies, a good movie is a good movie.  People seem to like Black Panther so I might see it at some point, but I'm getting bored of this genre & I'm a huge comic nerd, I still haven't seen Wonder Woman which looked pretty good.

Apparently it's a major cultural event now when a superhero movie features a woman (Wonder Woman), or black Africans, these characters are several decades old I don't know why people give a **** but whatever floats your boat.
In simple terms, RT is more like the proportion of critics giving positive reviews, rather than some sort of weighted average of review scores. For the latter people should check out Metacritic instead.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2018, 02:18:40 pm
So, Black Panther apparently did ok this weekend, to the tune of over $200 million dollars.

That's not just huge, that's huge even in comparison to most other Marvel movies.  I'm quite surprised. I thought it would do "ok" or "pretty good", but I had no idea that they'd have a blockbuster of this scale. I'm not sure whether the overwhelmingly positive reviews or an appetite for this character in particular would be the biggest driver, but whichever it is, it's pretty phenomenal.


Sorry, Michael, "superhero fatigue" has been put on hold.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on February 18, 2018, 02:19:49 pm
Keep in mind that a Rotten Tomatoes score is just a ratio of positive reviews to negative reviews.  Black Panther has a Rotten Tomatoes rating of something like 95% right now, but that might mean that 19 critics gave it 2.5 stars out of 4, and one critic gave it 2.0 stars out of 4.  A very "meh" movie can get a very high RT score provided that

 -k
I didn’t see your comment before my last post. This is exactly it.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on February 18, 2018, 02:23:11 pm
Yes and no.
Audience reviews are from people who were already predisposed to go see the film.
I only really look at reviews for movies that I am already predisposed to view so that subset of the audience likely means more to me than you. That sometimes critics reviews are good enough to get me to look at something other than my usual fare but that is based on why they give the review - not simply the number of stars.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: SirJohn on February 18, 2018, 02:46:53 pm
So, Black Panther apparently did ok this weekend, to the tune of over $200 million dollars.

And white people are getting beaten up by black people when they go see it.

No, not really. But people are posting fake pictures and stories of white people being beaten up by racist blacks who tell them it's not their movie and they shouldn't be going to see it. Which leaves the question of why people are doing this. I get that racists won't see the movie. I don't get that they would bother to make up fake accounts and do fake stories on it. And I don't remember this ever happening before. This isn't racism, this is propaganda by people who know it's lies. So I'm wondering if it's the Russians again.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: ?Impact on February 18, 2018, 03:15:48 pm
for example audience reviews from "Saw IV" reflect the opinions of people who are already inclined to go see movies in the kidnap-torture-dungeon genre

Even if I was into that genre, since I haven't seen Saw 1-3 I doubt I would see the fourth installment of a franchise without knowing the characters, etc. I would start at the beginning. I am not into superhero movies, but given the reviews I might give BlackPanther a try but I would probably wait for the DVD.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on February 18, 2018, 03:23:59 pm
Sorry, Michael, "superhero fatigue" has been put on hold.
As much as the critics overdo "female/black" superhero rhetoric these movies do deliver a "hook" that brings people back to the theatres. Without it superhero fatigue would have settled in by now (I know I have no interest in another avengers movie but black panther piques my interest).

I would expect disney Marvel to look for the next "hook" to keep the genre alive. My bets are on a gender bending superhero.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 18, 2018, 05:13:27 pm
The problem with a gender bending hero is that comic book heroes tend to require a lengthy pop culture gestation period before they made movie worthy. All the significant superhero movie characters (save maybe Deadpool) have been around for at least 50 years, including Black Panther.

Weird that it predated by several months the founding of the Black Panther Party. They tried changing his name to Black Leopard as a result, but that didn't have the same ring to it.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2018, 07:47:40 pm
I only really look at reviews for movies that I am already predisposed to view so that subset of the audience likely means more to me than you.

I agree, I don't think there are many times reviews got me to see something I wouldn't normally consider watching.

That sometimes critics reviews are good enough to get me to look at something other than my usual fare but that is based on why they give the review - not simply the number of stars.

This is also a good point. I read reviews more to find out what the movie is like.

The last one where reviews got me to change my mind was Thor: Ragnarok.  I hadn't planned on it, but after reading the reviews I got the impression that it was a very different movie from what I had expected. I figured, you know, super punch-outs and so on... but the reviews made it sound like the comedy and the characters were really the main focus. The review that made up my mind said something along the lines of "the best buddy road-movie since Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye..."  and I really did enjoy it.  And like the critics who gave it strong reviews, I enjoyed it because it delivered something that felt quite different from a lot of the superhero fare.

Conversely, the latest Spiderman reboot got positive reviews but I didn't go anyway.  The reviews basically made it sound like it was a good reboot that delivers exactly what you'd expect from a Spiderman movie, and I didn't give a **** because I'm all Spidermanned out.  I don't think I've seen the last 8 or 9 Spiderman movies.

...and on that note...
As much as the critics overdo "female/black" superhero rhetoric these movies do deliver a "hook" that brings people back to the theatres. Without it superhero fatigue would have settled in by now (I know I have no interest in another avengers movie but black panther piques my interest).

I would expect disney Marvel to look for the next "hook" to keep the genre alive. My bets are on a gender bending superhero.

I think there's probably some amount of audience that has been really longing to see a non-white superhero movie, much in the same way that so many women who wouldn't normally be at a superhero movie loved Wonder Woman.

But I can't really picture a transgender hero putting butts in seats. Not enough to promise a box office success, anyway.

I think the "hook" you speak of can take many different forms.

 -quality.  If something gets amazing reviews.  "The Dark Knight" got incredible reviews, and did incredible box office as well. Of course, it also had...

 -beloved characters.  Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine. We keep seeing these guys in movies because audiences love them.  Audiences didn't exactly love George Clooney as Batman, or Andrew Garfield as Spiderman, but even these "duds" still did pretty good box-office.  I can't imagine how the next Wolverine will do, now that Hugh Jackman has hung up the adamantium claws. He's the only guy who's ever been Wolverine on screen, and it's going to be a thankless job to replace him. I digress.  Even less successful reboots with these characters still did good box office.  Even with Henry "Mr Plywood" Cavill in the lead role, the current run of Superman movies have been somewhat successful.

 -something fresh.  Movies like Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool were big successes because they brought something completely different to the genre. They both had that "wow!" factor, in very different ways.

 -classic source material.  I include this only as a maybe.  I personally really loved "The Watchmen" movie, based on the 12-issue comic book series that I also really loved.  On the other hand, Fox really **** up trying to bring classic X-Men story arcs like "Days of Futures Past" to the big screen and I have little doubt that the upcoming (?) Phoenix saga is going to end up equally **** up.  "Batman vs Superman" borrowed heavily from the classic "Dark Knight" limited series by Frank Miller, and likewise **** up pretty bad.  Trying to adapt beloved source material into movies is apparently a pretty mixed bag.

I don't think inventing more far-out concepts for movies is necessarily the "hook" that will keep people coming to the theatres. In a lot of cases, I think the "classics" are classics for a reason, and that characters like Spiderman and Batman and The Hulk and Wolverine keep showing up on our screens because they have an inherent appeal.  Black Panther and Wonder Woman might as well, but up until now nobody has been willing to risk making a big-budget movie about them. It's a little sad that in present day making a movie about a black or female hero is seen as an "angle".

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2018, 07:57:44 pm
The problem with a gender bending hero is that comic book heroes tend to require a lengthy pop culture gestation period before they made movie worthy. All the significant superhero movie characters (save maybe Deadpool) have been around for at least 50 years, including Black Panther.

I'm not sure about that...  I mean, I know the Guardians of the Galaxy were around back then, but I don't think they were a household name. I think probably only **** comics nerds really knew about them.

Weird that it predated by several months the founding of the Black Panther Party. They tried changing his name to Black Leopard as a result, but that didn't have the same ring to it.

 I wonder if they considered changing his cat costume to be a black leather vest, a black beret, and sunglasses.


On a related note, I almost fell off of my couch laughing when the Netflix "Luke Cage" show managed to work the hilarious old-school "Power Man" costume into one scene through a series of coincidences.

(https://i.imgur.com/5zR4PIL.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 18, 2018, 08:07:24 pm
The characters might have been around for many decades, but nobody has ever actually made a movie about them that made any money.  Before Wonder Woman, the last female superhero movie was a Supergirl movie sometime in the early 1980s, and it did so poorly that nobody has ever tried again.  As for a black superhero, there's been sidekicks like Falcon-Suit Guy or Replacement Iron Man Guy, but never the lead. Unless you count "Blade", but probably most people didn't even know Blade is a comic book and just thought it was a movie about Wesley Snipes beating the crap out of vampires.

The notion that you could make a Black Panther movie or a Wonder Woman movie and people would actually go to the theatre and pay money to watch it is a relatively recent discovery for Hollywood, and one that goes against decades of conventional industry wisdom.

This is all because there's hardly any female or black solo superhero books.  The reason is because since the 1940's, young white males have been the main audience for comic book superhero power fantasies.  Black panther was created by 2 male Jews (Stan Lee & Jack Kirby).

The box office has no issues with female protagonists, see Hunger Games or Aliens.  Black people, ok fair enough not many have made a gazillion dollars.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 18, 2018, 08:10:26 pm
So, Black Panther apparently did ok this weekend, to the tune of over $200 million dollars.

That's not just huge, that's huge even in comparison to most other Marvel movies.  I'm quite surprised. I thought it would do "ok" or "pretty good", but I had no idea that they'd have a blockbuster of this scale. I'm not sure whether the overwhelmingly positive reviews or an appetite for this character in particular would be the biggest driver, but whichever it is, it's pretty phenomenal.


Sorry, Michael, "superhero fatigue" has been put on hold.

Hollywood also seems to not put out good blockbuster movies between New Years and April-ish.  You have tons of people sitting at home during winter with nothing to do, you'd think it would be the a great time to come out with great movies, but it's usually a deadzone.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on February 18, 2018, 08:18:46 pm
But I can't really picture a transgender hero putting butts in seats. Not enough to promise a box office success, anyway.
Depends how it is done. Thor 'in drag' would bomb. A shape-shifting alien from a race with no concept of gender though...
Maybe not as a lead but a major character could work.

I was looking the current calendar:
http://www.slashfilm.com/marvel-phase-4-movie-calendar/

Looks like nothing but sequels until 2022.
But I would assume the a 'Blade' reboot will be added soon now that Black Panther has done well.

It's a little sad that in present day making a movie about a black or female hero is seen as an "angle".
Movies are about making money. Virtue signalling is for politicians.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 19, 2018, 09:50:59 am
This is all because there's hardly any female or black solo superhero books.  The reason is because since the 1940's, young white males have been the main audience for comic book superhero power fantasies.  Black panther was created by 2 male Jews (Stan Lee & Jack Kirby).


The characters have been around, but (with the exception of Wonder Woman) mostly as supporting cast. I think "Power Man" had his own comic book in the 1970s... I believe the character was invented when "Blaxploitation" movies became popular.

Wonder woman has been around for decades, and the reason nobody tried to make a movie sooner is that nobody thought it would make any money until recently.  They did a Supergirl movie in 1985 and it tanked, and studio execs said "see? The market for this is young men, and young men don't want to see a movie about a chick."  A lot of us were worried that Wonder Woman might not do well either, and that it would be another 30 years before anybody tried again.

The box office has no issues with female protagonists, see Hunger Games or Aliens.  Black people, ok fair enough not many have made a gazillion dollars.

Well, Hunger Games was very recent, and James Cameron was way ahead of his time in putting characters like Sarah Connor and Ripley on our screens. There's been lots of movies about female characters... but very few of them have been action-adventure type movies. The thinking is that it's mostly young dudes who go to these movies, and that young dudes want to see movies where young dudes are the hero.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: ?Impact on February 19, 2018, 10:48:28 am
The thinking is that it's mostly young dudes who go to these movies, and that young dudes want to see movies where young dudes are the hero.

Have audiences changed, or was supergirl just a poor movie?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on February 20, 2018, 01:23:15 am
Have audiences changed, or was supergirl just a poor movie?

I'm not old enough to remember what 1985 audiences were like and I've never seen that movie. But I gather it wasn't very good, and I suspect audiences have changed as well.  And a third factor, I think, is that the studio exec's perception of the audience has changed too.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 18, 2018, 01:52:08 pm
There's another one this weekend: Black Panther.

I am NOT going to see this, nor am I slightly interested in the impact but I AM wondering:

Is anybody on here interested ?

I did finally go to the big movie yesterday. I told my date it was a documentary about the Black Panther Party.

I did enjoy the movie.  Some of the early portions of the movie were so "Lion King" that I expected Elton John to burst into song.  But things quickly improved.   The movie delivers everything you go to this sort of film to see.  Great action sequences, spectacular visuals, excitement, drama, a light comic touch... basically all the hallmarks of the most successful Marvel movies are here.

Does this movie have an "impact" beyond being tremendously successful and demonstrating that audiences will go out to see movies about black characters?  (Did Wonder Woman?)

During the recent Oscars, there was a clip of director Ryan Coogler saying something like "I went to Wonder Woman and there were grown women weeping with emotion, and I wanted Black Panther to make black people feel the same way."   Did he succeed? I'm not the right person to ask.  I did feel that initially watching a movie with an almost entirely black cast was somewhat odd, and that very quickly this aspect of it completely vanished and you become immersed in the movie.  Perhaps this is how non-white audiences feel every time they go to a movie.

As far as a greater social message... it focuses on King T'Challa's realization that the main villain is to some degree a monster of his family's own making. He feels guilty for his father's role in turning his back on the child who would grow up to become a menace, and in a broader context makes him realize that it's time that his country do more and stop turning its back as well. It is, I guess, a call for people to do more for each other and consider that the things you turn a blind eye to today could come back to haunt you.

But anyway, I did enjoy the movie, I think it completely stands on its own as a great piece of entertainment, regardless of whatever social and cultural implications one wishes to consider.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 18, 2018, 01:54:44 pm
  "I went to Wonder Woman and there were grown women weeping with emotion, and I wanted Black Panther to make black people feel the same way." 

But... not at the movie... at the idea that it was made.  They could have wept looking at the poster...

Therefore, I have also won but supporting the idea that it was made and not going.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 19, 2018, 11:49:27 pm
But... not at the movie...

Wrooong, Michael.

... at the idea that it was made.

Ridiculous, Michael.

They could have wept looking at the poster...

Absuuuurd, Michael.



Seriously, though. He was talking about the visceral emotional experience of seeing it on the screen, not the philosophical satisfaction of knowing a movie studio might make a movie aimed at you. I get tha you can't relate...

Therefore, I have also won but supporting the idea that it was made and not going.

...but you're wrong to discount the power of fantasy.

I saw a headline last week, and I forget if it was in my news feed or if it was a link on another site I was reading. I haven't read it yet, but the headline said (I read this in Whoopi Goldberg's voice): "Black Kids Don't Want To Read About Harriet Tubman All The Time."

I loved the sentiment.  Not that people shouldn't know or care about Harriet Tubman-- of course they should.  But peoples' imaginations and dreams and fantasies deserve much more varied fuel than stories from a dark time in history.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 20, 2018, 06:23:37 am
Seriously, though. He was talking about the visceral emotional experience of seeing it on the screen, not the philosophical satisfaction of knowing a movie studio might make a movie aimed at you. I get tha you can't relate...

I can relate to being happy at seeing a black man elected President.  Through that, I can relate to being proud of seeing certain roles portrayed, but it's a separate experience from enjoying the art.

Quote
...but you're wrong to discount the power of fantasy.

I only do so for myself, and - slightly - as an old guy who doesn't get the kids today.  The latter stance says as much about me as about the kids.

Quote
I saw a headline last week, and I forget if it was in my news feed or if it was a link on another site I was reading. I haven't read it yet, but the headline said (I read this in Whoopi Goldberg's voice): "Black Kids Don't Want To Read About Harriet Tubman All The Time."

Why would they ?

Quote
I loved the sentiment.  Not that people shouldn't know or care about Harriet Tubman-- of course they should.  But peoples' imaginations and dreams and fantasies deserve much more varied fuel than stories from a dark time in history.

The real diversity comes now, after the "first" one... when nobody gives a ****.

David Mamet writes a lot of movies for people like me, but also people like you.  You would like his politics, maybe.  I'll put a link to an interview he did last week with WTF.

Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 20, 2018, 10:56:12 pm
I can relate to being happy at seeing a black man elected President. 

You can relate to it, but if you were a young black person, you wouldn't just relate to it, you'd *feel* it.

When I was young, Japanese-Canadian hockey star Paul Kariya was a big deal for my Chinese-Canadian friends. They didn't know or care much about hockey, but it was tremendously exciting for them to know that someone who looked like them was a real star in the white-man's game.  That a white guy could become a big star in the NHL is probably not very exciting for white guys at large, because pretty much every big star in the NHL is a white guy, but there's probably still lots of boys out there playing street hockey imagining that they're Conor McDavid or Austin Matthews.  And for a while, at least, there were Asian kids playing street hockey imagining they were Paul Kariya.   And playing basketball imagining they were Yao Ming.   And I'm sure that a lot of short white Canadian kids were playing basketball imagining they were Steve Nash too.


Through that, I can relate to being proud of seeing certain roles portrayed, but it's a separate experience from enjoying the art.

Perhaps it's a "separate experience" because you relate to it but don't actually *feel* it.  Perhaps these films are exciting for people who aren't you because they give people who aren't you an experience that you've taken for granted your whole life.

Perhaps you never found discarded fluorescent light tubes in the alley and grabbed one and held it like a sword and said "I'M A BEN KENOBI!!!" and had a a sword fight with your friends.  Or similar.  My little brother did. I got to be Count Dooku or Darth Maul, of course, because the hero of the story was always the white male.  I was always the villainous foil, first of all because mostly I was just indulging my little brother, and secondly because the hero is always the white male.  And even though I knew better than to have sword-fights with breakable glass "light-sabers", I played along because it made my little brother feel good to imagine himself as Jedi Knight Ben Kenobi.  There was never a Kim Kenobi in Star Wars when I was a kid. I never got to be the hero in our imaginary Star Wars adventure.


Why would they ?

Why indeed.  And yet it seems like when Hollywood sets out to entertain black people we get two extremes.  It's either historical epics-- 12 Years A Slave, Selma, Malcolm X,  etc etc etc, or low-brow Tyler Perry comedies.   There's a substantially large void in between.

And into this void steps Black Panther, a movie that's unapologetically aimed towards a black audience while standing on its own as a solid piece of entertainment to audiences of any race.  And, to the surprise of perhaps some-- made a ****-ton of money.  This is a smash success even by Disney/Marvel standards-- it will very shortly surpass every other Marvel movie to date, and when all is said and done it will rank among the biggest commercial successes of all time, regardless of genre.

The villain of the story-- Erik "Killmonger" Stevens-- is a compelling figure, and his anger and angst speak to the audience just as clearly as some historical civil rights drama might.  There is, I gather, a lively ongoing debate as to whether Erik is even a villain... some feel like he has a pretty good point and maybe T'Challa is actually the villain in the story.  I read an interesting column arguing that both Killmonger and T'Challa symbolize competing factions within the actual historical Black Panther Party movement.  There's a lot of discussion about the way this movie has portrayed black anger and black resentment.  It's possible that this movie has created more discussion about racial issues in America than any "serious" historical drama ever has.

And, when it comes to the issue of diversity and representation in Hollywood, you can be dead certain that Black Panther and Wonder Woman have done far more to advance that front than any number of Harriet Tubman biopics ever could.

The real diversity comes now, after the "first" one... when nobody gives a ****.

There will be more. Some will be good. Some will suck. Some will succeed. Some will fail.  Just as with movies with white male protagonists.


David Mamet writes a lot of movies for people like me, but also people like you.  You would like his politics, maybe.  I'll put a link to an interview he did last week with WTF.

"WTF"?


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: ?Impact on March 20, 2018, 11:04:06 pm
Perhaps you never found discarded fluorescent light tubes in the alley and grabbed one and held it like a sword and said "I'M A BEN KENOBI!!!" and had a a sword fight with your friends.
...
And even though I knew better than to have sword-fights with breakable glass "light-sabers", I played along because it made my little brother feel good to imagine himself as Jedi Knight Ben Kenobi.

You should have brought him under some high voltage transmission lines.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 21, 2018, 05:49:27 am
You can relate to it, but if you were a young black person, you wouldn't just relate to it, you'd *feel* it.

I do 'feel it' but admittedly not in the same way as a young black person would.  The point is that the 'feeling' of the achievement is separate from the 'feeling' of experiencing the art.  You can be brought to tears that Wonder Woman or Black Panther was made and still think the movie itself isn't that great.

Quote
When I was young, Japanese-Canadian hockey star Paul Kariya was a big deal for my Chinese-Canadian friends. They didn't know or care much about hockey, but it was tremendously exciting for them to know that someone who looked like them was a real star in the white-man's game.  That a white guy could become a big star in the NHL is probably not very exciting for white guys at large, because pretty much every big star in the NHL is a white guy, but there's probably still lots of boys out there playing street hockey imagining that they're Conor McDavid or Austin Matthews.  And for a while, at least, there were Asian kids playing street hockey imagining they were Paul Kariya.   And playing basketball imagining they were Yao Ming.   And I'm sure that a lot of short white Canadian kids were playing basketball imagining they were Steve Nash too.

Yes, yes I'm a liberal remember ?  I'm all about the little guy/gal/nonbinary getting "in".  You don't need to explain this to me.

Quote
Perhaps it's a "separate experience" because you relate to it but don't actually *feel* it.  Perhaps these films are exciting for people who aren't you because they give people who aren't you an experience that you've taken for granted your whole life.

Ibid.

Quote
Perhaps you never found discarded fluorescent light tubes in the alley and grabbed one and held it like a sword and said "I'M A BEN KENOBI!!!" and had a a sword fight with your friends.  Or similar.  My little brother did. I got to be Count Dooku or Darth Maul, of course, because the hero of the story was always the white male.  I was always the villainous foil, first of all because mostly I was just indulging my little brother, and secondly because the hero is always the white male.  And even though I knew better than to have sword-fights with breakable glass "light-sabers", I played along because it made my little brother feel good to imagine himself as Jedi Knight Ben Kenobi.  There was never a Kim Kenobi in Star Wars when I was a kid. I never got to be the hero in our imaginary Star Wars adventure.

Not true.  I used to *love* the Flash Gordon type movies when I was a boy.  Then I grew up.  Most sci-fi and superhero films are pure garbage but the odd one is still ok:

The first Superman (Christopher Reeve), a few Terminator movies, two Star Warses, two Aliens, Batman Begins....

Quote
Why indeed.  And yet it seems like when Hollywood sets out to entertain black people we get two extremes.  It's either historical epics-- 12 Years A Slave, Selma, Malcolm X,  etc etc etc, or low-brow Tyler Perry comedies.   There's a substantially large void in between.

The former type is mostly for white people, and the latter for ... who knows.  Straight Outta Compton was good enough.  There are enough good black film makers to make commercial movies for a black audience.

Quote
"WTF"?


 -k

I posted in the Podcast Culture thread.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on May 20, 2018, 11:41:00 am
Is Marvel/Disney destroying the entire movie industry as we know it?!

https://www.theringer.com/movies/2018/5/14/17351238/avengers-infinity-war-box-office-counterprogramming

Quote
Infinity War and Black Panther are intimidating and then crushing competition. These movies—movies that I, like Falcone and millions of others, generally really enjoy—are creating a beggars’ class of haves and have-nots that threatens not just the old manner of movie-release strategy, but the notion of film lovers. It is brand loyalty as artistic assault. Today, we have repeat customers, not cinephiles.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on May 22, 2018, 09:24:01 am
Yes they are, but not through their own intentions. They're responding to the way our society operates, which is economic rationalism above all else. Every aspect of society as we shifted from pre-modern times to modernity became contingent on a few key factors: calculability, efficiency, predictability/standardization, control. It's a rationalism that is to the detriment of artistic endeavours and human experience. Ritzer called this the McDonaldization of society. He goes on to argue that this kind of social organisation is irrationally rational. What he means is that strict rationalism dehumanizes the people who work in such a system. We can see the humanity stripped out of films, quite literally with the overabundance of CG. People are no longer an end in themselves, but a means to an end. They are numbers on spreadsheets.

As it goes for superhero movies, they are efficient and predictable through serial spin-offs, sequels, prequels and reboots. They are calculable because they become brands, as mentioned. Studios don't want to take a chance on something new, when they can just take a story, already written and already popular, and churn out a film that's already recognized. Consequently, it's the death of creativity. Trying something new, stretching boundaries, pushing the envelope are irrational but they are the quintessential characteristics of the artistic, the aesthetic, and the human experience. Economic rationalism is the death of not only film but all kinds of artistic endeavours. We are left with a meme economy that endlessly reproduces the same images, de-contextualizing and dehumanizing everything.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 09:32:22 am
  Ritzer called this the McDonaldization of society. He goes on to argue that this kind of social organisation is irrationally rational.

Yes, and this has happened before.  Art that is not genuine will not be supported.

Quote
As it goes for superhero movies, they are efficient and predictable through serial spin-offs, sequels, prequels and reboots. They are calculable because they become brands, as mentioned. Studios don't want to take a chance on something new, when they can just take a story, already written and already popular, and churn out a film that's already recognized.

Until somebody takes a chance on the next Easy Rider.

Quote
Consequently, it's the death of creativity. Trying something new, stretching boundaries, pushing the envelope are irrational but they are the quintessential characteristics of the artistic, the aesthetic, and the human experience. Economic rationalism is the death of not only film but all kinds of artistic endeavours. We are left with a meme economy that endlessly reproduces the same images, de-contextualizing and dehumanizing everything.

People need novelty, and art sneaks in...
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on May 22, 2018, 10:30:04 am
Consequently, it's the death of creativity. Trying something new, stretching boundaries, pushing the envelope are irrational but they are the quintessential characteristics of the artistic, the aesthetic, and the human experience.
Movie theaters are not the only outlet today. People with interest and capital can produce original content for streaming and reach a wide audience.  So it is silly to say that the dearth of original movies in theaters is the 'death of creativity'.

Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 10:42:12 am
  So it is silly to say that the dearth of original movies in theaters is the 'death of creativity'.

Some other aspects of this debate include:

high art vs low art
relevance
escapism vs realism




Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 22, 2018, 10:48:21 am
If you're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to create and distribute and market films I see why studios would rather invest that money into a sure thing people obviously want to see rather something they're not sure they want to see & could bomb.  Eventually people will get sick of superhero movies & there won't be so many.  Same with Star Wars movies possibly.

There's still tons of other quality and artistic movies for people to see, it's just that Star Wars and superhero films seem to be dominating the blockbuster genre lately.  If it wasn't superheroes it was The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings or Pirates of the Carribean or The Matrix or The Hunger Games etc.  They made 8 or 9 Harry Potter movies because people like Harry Potter movies, it's not the end of the world or the death of art.  If people want to see superhero movies, leave them alone.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on May 22, 2018, 10:55:46 am
Movie theaters are not the only outlet today. People with interest and capital can produce original content for streaming and reach a wide audience.  So it is silly to say that the dearth of original movies in theaters is the 'death of creativity'.
Having access to an audience is not the same thing as capturing an audience and it is a giant leap to being economically supported in these endeavours.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 22, 2018, 11:02:11 am
Having access to an audience is not the same thing as capturing an audience and it is a giant leap to being economically supported in these endeavours.

That's true, they also won't have the marketing on every bus shelter supporting it.  Luckily film is such a big industry that you still find pretty much anything you want to see.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on May 22, 2018, 11:10:45 am
Having access to an audience is not the same thing as capturing an audience and it is a giant leap to being economically supported in these endeavours.
Any artist who can't self-fund is going to have to create art that sells. This is a fact of life that has always been true and will be forever true in the future. In the past artists depended on wealthy patrons which might have eliminated the need to sell art to the masses but still required that art could be marketed to the patrons. Today artists have more options because they can reach wide audiences for little cost and have access to revenue streams such as YouTube ads. A world where artists create art that no one wants to buy is a pointless fantasy.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 11:27:19 am
   If people want to see superhero movies, leave them alone.

No.

Get.  Off.  Of.  My. 

Lawn.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Goddess on May 22, 2018, 12:06:51 pm
No.

Get.  Off.  Of.  My. 

Lawn.

I had this shirt made for my man for our 50th last year.  Want me to get one made for you too?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 12:26:37 pm
Is that you ?  Cute & happy couple...
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Goddess on May 22, 2018, 12:31:21 pm
Is that you ?  Cute & happy couple...

Yes, that's us.  The good news is that I'm pretty much who I say I am.  The bad news is that I'm pretty much who  I say I am.  ;D
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 12:42:09 pm
Are you camping ?  Crown Land ?  :D
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Goddess on May 22, 2018, 12:49:48 pm
Are you camping ?  Crown Land ?  :D

We live on an acreage - 1.3 acres.  There's another acre of crown land running through a forested area behind us, then the Sturgeon River.  We've made trails through the forest and a flat area near the river for when we sled in the winter.  It's a lot of work, but it's nice and quiet.  And our neighbors are all wonderful.  Internet stinks out there though.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 22, 2018, 01:19:25 pm
I'm sure it's better than the internet in the desert.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on May 24, 2018, 11:46:21 am
Any artist who can't self-fund is going to have to create art that sells. This is a fact of life that has always been true and will be forever true in the future. In the past artists depended on wealthy patrons which might have eliminated the need to sell art to the masses but still required that art could be marketed to the patrons. Today artists have more options because they can reach wide audiences for little cost and have access to revenue streams such as YouTube ads. A world where artists create art that no one wants to buy is a pointless fantasy.
Not everything needs to nor should rely on economic markets. Art is one of those things.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 24, 2018, 12:34:51 pm
Not everything needs to nor should rely on economic markets. Art is one of those things.

Not solely. It's a proxy for popularity, and whatever that is worth.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on May 24, 2018, 01:19:11 pm
Not solely. It's a proxy for popularity, and whatever that is worth.
But what does popularity mean? ie, Does art need to be popular to be good?

Edit: Does art even need to be good or popular to be important
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on May 25, 2018, 06:39:01 am
But what does popularity mean? ie, Does art need to be popular to be good?

Edit: Does art even need to be good or popular to be important

No.  Popular art is important though as is unpopular art.

Let me drift away:

Popular art ... true art ... to me is something that emerges suddenly when the popular mindset has been static for too long and is hungry for something better.  It doesn't happen often.  I am thinking of Bob Dylan, Easy Rider, Punk Rock and The Simpsons as examples. 

The popular arts of the times when these things arrived were so stale that the mainstream was willing to take in something radically different.

Unpopular art may repel the mainstream but if truthful it can influence the influencers.  I am thinking of The Velvet Underground, Eraserhead, Gram Parsons and Get A Life!  None of those things saw success of much import but grew into 'cult' status and were eventually cited as hugely influential.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: ?Impact on May 25, 2018, 01:40:10 pm
Popular art is important though as is unpopular art.

Where does Andy Warhol fit?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on June 27, 2018, 12:05:31 am
Josh Brolin reads Donald Trump tweets, in the voice of Thanos.

https://youtu.be/d853h-8rsPQ?t=9m42s

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on November 18, 2018, 03:45:36 pm
https://www.maxim.com/entertainment/bill-maher-slammed-comic-book-fans-stan-lee-2018-11?fbclid=IwAR0Teh0g_EAzXjo8jjPHRIivrd55N1507bq16BBnGrD58Vo8u6xEEeejf7c

Bill Maher trolls Comic Book movie fans...
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2018, 09:07:54 pm
"There will never be another Stan Lee. For decades he provided both young and old with adventure, escape, comfort, confidence, inspiration, strength, friendship and joy. He exuded love and kindness and will leave an indelible mark on so, so, so many lives. Excelsior!!"
  -Chris Evans, "Captain America".

"How many millions of us are indebted to this guy, none more so than me. The father of Marvel has made so many people so incredibly happy. What a life and what a thing to have achieved. Rest in peace Stan."
 -Tom Holland, "Spiderman".

"Stan Lee and Dr. Seuss and Ray Bradbury. That’s where it begins and ends with me. To those of us who have been so deeply affected by the humanity of his imagination, the understanding of reaching beyond our potential and the necessity of tapping into our immeasurable imaginations, we thank you and are forever indebted. Rest In Peace Dear Stan. You made our time here a better one."
 -Josh Brolin, "Thanos".

Stan Lee brought joy to millions.  Bill Maher brings snark to some modest number of night-owls.   The line from Neil Gaiman-- acclaimed author of both comics and "books without pictures"-- sums it up pretty well.  "More people cared about Stan Lee’s death than care about Bill Maher alive."



 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 19, 2018, 02:29:54 am
I loved Stan Lee’s work.   And I enjoy Bill Maher.   Did he disparage the man a bit too soon after he died?  I’d say yes.   This joke might be funnier in a couple years.  I think its a bit of a flop now though.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on November 27, 2018, 11:27:50 am
I loved Stan Lee’s work.   And I enjoy Bill Maher.   Did he disparage the man a bit too soon after he died?
I don't think the timing had anything to do with it. I think it was the content of what he said.

The timing just made more people notice.
Quote
I’d say yes.   This joke might be funnier in a couple years.  I think its a bit of a flop now though.
Thing is, i don't think what he said was meant to be humorous. I think it was meant as a serious statement about his thoughts on comic books and their impact on culture.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on December 01, 2018, 03:41:32 pm
Diversity in the superhero movie genre continues to explode!

In 2016, Harley Quinn and The Joker put Clown-Americans in the spotlight and may have even helped Donald Trump become the first Clown-American President.

In 2017, Wonder Woman was a massive hit, and so were **** Hats, the Women's March, and tearing down Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby.

In 2018, Black Panther put a black hero in the spotlight and became one of the most successful movies ever.  Then Ant-Man And The Wasp put little-people in the starring role, for the first time since the Ewoks fought the Empire in Return Of The Jedi.

And later this month another huge step forward for diversity, as Aquaman arrives in theatres!  Finally a movie about fish-people, by fish-people, for fish people! It's amazing that this hasn't happened sooner, but it's happening now. And it is past time.

Of course this comes hot on the heels of last year's fish-people romance movie, "The Shape Of Water", but while that was a small release critically acclaimed art movie, this is a big budget blockbuster that will really bring the lives and stories of fish-people to the masses.

Jason Momoa stars as Aquaman.  He is best remembered as Khal Drogo from Game of Thrones, as well as starring in a Conan movie a few years back, as well as this gif of course:

(https://i.imgur.com/kp8te.gif)

And yes, as the gif says, "dis gon be gud."

While Aquaman always seemed like the most weak-ass of the Superfriends, a guy whose powers were really pretty useless unless crimes were being committed near aquariums or on boats, one can be sure that with Jason Momoa in the title role, this is not going to be some wimpy loser.   People who have seen early screenings are loving it: (https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/aquaman-social-reactions-absolutely-bonkers-and-a-lot-of-fun/)

"It’s unabashedly melodramatic and over the top with the largest, most ambitious sense of scale imaginable."

"It’s so inherently bonkers that you’d have to be an utter killjoy to not get caught up in it."

"It’s a good adventure movie that acknowledges exactly what it is from the start, which is a meal made almost entirely of ham."

"Ambitious, campy and so much fun."

"It is a relentless visual spectacle that knows what it is and doesn’t hold back."

Earlier I was thinking I was going to give this a miss, but from the sound of it this is exactly the movie I need right now.

He summons fish to the dish, he likes the sushi cuz it's never touched a frying pan.
(https://i.imgur.com/xOuVHDv.jpg)

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 10, 2019, 03:04:50 pm
All of the current run of Marvel/Disney "MCU" movies are hits, the only question is "how big?"   They come in different grades.  "Pretty big", such as Doctor Strange or Ant Man. "Big", like Thor or Captain America, "Huge" like Guardians of the Galaxy or Iron Man, and "Incredibly gigantic" like Black Panther and the Avengers movies.

The latest entry, Captain Marvel, looks on pace to chart somewhere towards the high end of "huge", but not quite in the "incredibly gigantic" range.

That's not a huge shock... Wonder Woman proved a couple of years ago that a female-led superhero movie could make money. And positioned as a lead-in to the upcoming Avengers movie, Captain Marvel had a built-in advantage that made it almost unavoidable that it would be a success.

But that didn't keep some folks from trying!

Over 58,000 user reviews were posted on Rotten Tomatoes within hours of Captain Marvel's opening Friday.  That number seems suspiciously high, because Avengers: Infinity War, among the biggest box office hits ever, didn't get 58,000 user reviews during its whole theatrical release. The CinemaScore rating-- exit polling of people who actually saw the movie-- gave it an "A" rating.  The high number of negative reviews has been attributed to a concerted effort by alt-right trolls, GamerGaters, and similar misogynists who don't like the idea of a sci-fi movie with strong female presence, non-white heroes, or anything else they consider "Social justice warrior bullshit".  Similar movements happened around Black Panther,  Mad Max: Fury Road, and Star Wars: The Last Jedi. (https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/02/19/captain-marvel-rotten-tomatoes-fake-reviews-sabotage/)

Rotten Tomatoes has removed thousands of reviews they deemed fake, (https://ca.ign.com/articles/2019/03/09/rotten-tomatoes-explains-why-it-removed-thousands-of-audience-reviews-on-captain-marvels-opening-day) which has the embittered troll community crying "censorship!" (https://cosmicbook.news/rotten-tomatoes-deletes-captain-marvel-user-reviews)


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 10, 2019, 10:41:54 pm
Captain Marvel is a shitty comic character. But Wonder Woman was a hit so omg Disney says they need a female flick. All the best female characters for Marvel are in the X-Men, but Sony owns the rights to those. A Storm movie would be cool, that character was pretty terrible in the movies, needs a reboot.  I always felt Spider-Woman was under-rated.



Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 11, 2019, 06:55:13 am
Weird. Captain Marvel got mediocre reviews, though generally positive. I couldn't be less excited for superhero films now though. The market is thoroughly oversaturated.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 11, 2019, 10:35:12 am
Weird. Captain Marvel got mediocre reviews, though generally positive.

It's not weird at all... the Gamergaters and Trumptards and 4chan turds absolutely hate that this movie exists, and organized online brigades to try to impact the reviews, spread negative rumors, and so on.  "The SJWs are taking over everything!" "The SJWs are ruining my comic books!"  "Soon you won't even be able to see a white male on TV or in a movie!"

I had a quick look at the Reddit gamergate board, and they're pretty **** livid over Captain Marvel.  They're now floating conspiracy theories as to how a movie that they knew would be a bomb made a half billion dollars in 3 days.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: TimG on March 11, 2019, 10:52:37 am
It's not weird at all... the Gamergaters and Trumptards and 4chan turds absolutely hate that this movie exists, and organized online brigades to try to impact the reviews, spread negative rumors, and so on.  "The SJWs are taking over everything!" "The SJWs are ruining my comic books!"  "Soon you won't even be able to see a white male on TV or in a movie!"
I hate preachy self indulgent movies but I fail to see what the issue is with these movies this crowd keeps whinging about. My pet peeve with diversity in Hollywood is notion that diversity means black/hispanic.  I would rather see a lot more east indian and east asian actors in hollywood films outside side of sterotyped roles (east asian, not just Chinese).

That said, I am more disturbed by the content designed to pander to Chinese censors. We don't need movies where anyone except the Chinese government can be the bad guy.

Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 11, 2019, 07:33:22 pm
Weird. Captain Marvel got mediocre reviews, though generally positive. I couldn't be less excited for superhero films now though. The market is thoroughly oversaturated.

I think I was most excited for Superman starring Christopher Reeve and maybe the first Batman.  Overall they were satisfying but not classics.  I maybe liked the first Christian Bale Batman too. 

When you think about it, there's not much of a surprise from one of these pictures.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 11, 2019, 08:35:19 pm
It's not weird at all... the Gamergaters and Trumptards and 4chan turds absolutely hate that this movie exists, and organized online brigades to try to impact the reviews, spread negative rumors, and so on.  "The SJWs are taking over everything!" "The SJWs are ruining my comic books!"  "Soon you won't even be able to see a white male on TV or in a movie!"

I had a quick look at the Reddit gamergate board, and they're pretty **** livid over Captain Marvel.  They're now floating conspiracy theories as to how a movie that they knew would be a bomb made a half billion dollars in 3 days.

It's pretty weird c'mon Kimmy.  Not sure how this movie did so well at the box office.  Wonder Woman had 103 mil opening, and that looked way better, wtf? Consider that most comic fans don't give much of a rip about this character, and the vast majority of the public have never heard of this character, and the trailers didn't look that hot, the reviews were good but not great, and Brie Larson isn't exactly Jennifer Lawrence at the box office.

Maybe lots of gals wanted to see this, given the controversy, and bf was happy enough gf wanted to see a superhero flick?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 12, 2019, 12:24:12 am
It's pretty weird c'mon Kimmy.  Not sure how this movie did so well at the box office. 

It's a Marvel movie, and it's the lead-in to the conclusion of "Infinity War". They could hardly have missed.

Wonder Woman had 103 mil opening, and that looked way better, wtf?

From what I'm reading from non-troll sources, I get the impression that WW is a much better movie. But the DC movies don't have nearly the following that the Marvel movies do, and most of the DC movies have been pretty bad. Wonder Woman was the first genuine hit for the DC movies.

One thing that set WW apart from most movies is that it just kept going and going at the box office ("Wonder Woman has amazing legs", I think somebody phrased it...)  For most movies they usually expect the final box office to be somewhere around 2.5 to 3 times the opening weekend (us Hollywood types call that the "multiplier".)  For Black Panther it was more like 3.5, which is really good.  For Wonder Woman, it was 4, which is great. (Crazy Rich Asians: about 6, which is huge.)  Despite a great start, it's not a given that Captain Marvel finishes ahead of Wonder Woman in the long run.   DC movies like Batman vs Superman and Suicide Squad had much better starts than Wonderwoman, but business died off quickly (multipliers about 2.0) because the movies were crappy and word-of-mouth was bad ...if Captain Marvel has a typical multiplier of 2.5ish, it could finish with domestic gross somewhere around $375 million, which would fall short of WW.

Consider that most comic fans don't give much of a rip about this character, and the vast majority of the public have never heard of this character,

Same could be said of Guardians of the Galaxy or Black Panther.  The thing is, if comic book fans were the only ones who went to these movies, these movies would have gone extinct years ago because the studios wouldn't make any money on them.

If it was fame with the general public that set the benchmark for which comic book movies were most successful, the runaway leaders would probably be Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and the Incredible Hulk.  The first three of those characters had successful movies in previous incarnations, but their recent movies have had middling success at best-- the Spiderman "Homecoming" movie did pretty good, but not near the top of the Marvel brand. The Incredible Hulk is well known, but none of the Hulk movies were successful.

and the trailers didn't look that hot, the reviews were good but not great, and Brie Larson isn't exactly Jennifer Lawrence at the box office.

Neither is Chadwick Boseman...

Maybe lots of gals wanted to see this, given the controversy, and bf was happy enough gf wanted to see a superhero flick?

I think people are going to see this because it's the lead-in to the conclusion of the "Infinity War" story.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Pinus or Vid or...????? on March 12, 2019, 12:29:08 am
Not really a movie, but Rex Kramer has to be on this list for obvious reasons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwk6r8TJD2U

Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 12, 2019, 10:14:26 am
It's interesting that there is a Shazam movie coming out this year as well, considering he was the original Captain Marvel. He was in Whiz Comics, owned by Fawcett. DC sued them, claiming Captain Marvel was too much like Superman and Fawcett stopped publishing it. The copyright on the name lapsed and Marvel swooped in to claim it. DC wound up with the rights to the old Fawcett characters but they have to call Captain Marvel "Shazam" now.
I used to like the Shazam/Isis hour on CBS Saturday mornings as a lad, but I have a feeling they aren't bringing back Isis any time soon.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 12, 2019, 01:44:05 pm
It's a Marvel movie, and it's the lead-in to the conclusion of "Infinity War". They could hardly have missed.

From what I'm reading from non-troll sources, I get the impression that WW is a much better movie. But the DC movies don't have nearly the following that the Marvel movies do, and most of the DC movies have been pretty bad. Wonder Woman was the first genuine hit for the DC movies.

One thing that set WW apart from most movies is that it just kept going and going at the box office ("Wonder Woman has amazing legs", I think somebody phrased it...)  For most movies they usually expect the final box office to be somewhere around 2.5 to 3 times the opening weekend (us Hollywood types call that the "multiplier".)  For Black Panther it was more like 3.5, which is really good.  For Wonder Woman, it was 4, which is great. (Crazy Rich Asians: about 6, which is huge.)  Despite a great start, it's not a given that Captain Marvel finishes ahead of Wonder Woman in the long run.   DC movies like Batman vs Superman and Suicide Squad had much better starts than Wonderwoman, but business died off quickly (multipliers about 2.0) because the movies were crappy and word-of-mouth was bad ...if Captain Marvel has a typical multiplier of 2.5ish, it could finish with domestic gross somewhere around $375 million, which would fall short of WW.

Same could be said of Guardians of the Galaxy or Black Panther.  The thing is, if comic book fans were the only ones who went to these movies, these movies would have gone extinct years ago because the studios wouldn't make any money on them.

If it was fame with the general public that set the benchmark for which comic book movies were most successful, the runaway leaders would probably be Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and the Incredible Hulk.  The first three of those characters had successful movies in previous incarnations, but their recent movies have had middling success at best-- the Spiderman "Homecoming" movie did pretty good, but not near the top of the Marvel brand. The Incredible Hulk is well known, but none of the Hulk movies were successful.

Neither is Chadwick Boseman...

I think people are going to see this because it's the lead-in to the conclusion of the "Infinity War" story.

Well these are all good points.  I guess the Infinity War tie-in hype makes the most sense.  I still think the movie doesn't look very good.

Pretty amazing opening considering it made more than either Guardians of the Galaxy movies and either Deadpool flicks.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 12, 2019, 04:11:35 pm
It's interesting that there is a Shazam movie coming out this year as well, considering he was the original Captain Marvel. He was in Whiz Comics, owned by Fawcett. DC sued them, claiming Captain Marvel was too much like Superman and Fawcett stopped publishing it. The copyright on the name lapsed and Marvel swooped in to claim it. DC wound up with the rights to the old Fawcett characters but they have to call Captain Marvel "Shazam" now.
I used to like the Shazam/Isis hour on CBS Saturday mornings as a lad, but I have a feeling they aren't bringing back Isis any time soon.

That's the only comic book I read.  So I was excited about Captain Marvel.  Then I found out it was a lady.  Ok.  Then I found out it was some whizbang bullshit universe.  I guess I get my Shazam now.  Is it a lady ?  A black lady ?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 12, 2019, 05:28:40 pm
That's the only comic book I read.  So I was excited about Captain Marvel.  Then I found out it was a lady.  Ok.  Then I found out it was some whizbang bullshit universe.  I guess I get my Shazam now.  Is it a lady ?  A black lady ?

Yes actually the new Shazam in the new movie is a big fat black lady.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 12, 2019, 05:50:56 pm
Yes actually the new Shazam in the new movie is a big fat black lady.

That's hot.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 13, 2019, 08:06:11 am
The superhero genre has just become so formulaic and contrived. I'm waiting for something fresh and creative. Into the Spiderverse was PHENOMENAL. I highly recommend it. And that's coming from someone completely burned out on superhero flicks. The art and animation is unique and fresh and the story is interesting and compelling.  I can't rant on Captain Marvel too much because I haven't seen it. I'll catch it on stream later, maybe. But I'm looking for things to be fresh and creative. A woman as the hero with the same old regurgitated stories just isn't enough, imo.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 13, 2019, 09:42:10 pm
1. The superhero genre has just become so formulaic and contrived.
2. But I'm looking for things to be fresh and creative. A woman as the hero with the same old regurgitated stories just isn't enough, imo.
1. I got SO MUCH HATE ON HERE for saying that.
2. ME TOO.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2019, 10:27:43 pm
The superhero genre has just become so formulaic and contrived. I'm waiting for something fresh and creative. Into the Spiderverse was PHENOMENAL. I highly recommend it. And that's coming from someone completely burned out on superhero flicks. The art and animation is unique and fresh and the story is interesting and compelling.  I can't rant on Captain Marvel too much because I haven't seen it. I'll catch it on stream later, maybe. But I'm looking for things to be fresh and creative. A woman as the hero with the same old regurgitated stories just isn't enough, imo.

It all depends on the movie for me.  If it's a good superhero flick, i like it.  I've skipped a lot of them.  I thought the 1st two Avengers movies were boring, then i gave Infinity War a shot and it was a really good movie, i'm excited to see the finale.  Logan was the best Marvel movie ever IMO.  Deadpool was unique and fun, so was the 1st Guardians of the Galaxy, the 2nd one i felt draggy & uninspired, Dr Strange was terrible with all the stupid "Marvel humour" Black Panther was excellent etc

Disney et al. will milk our childhoods until people stop going to see them. They tried to milk Star Wars but fans rebelled against Han Solo, and they've shut down a bunch of the Star Wars spinoffs as a result, so ticket sales speak.  Disney is milking all these live action Disney classic remakes.  If people want it they vote with their dollars i guess, can't blame Disney when movies are risky since they cost so much so they want the surest hitmaker.

The 2000's was a better decade for blockbusters: Lord of the Rings films, Harry Potter movies, superhero flicks, Star Wars prequels, Matrix sequels etc. There was a better variety.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 18, 2019, 11:48:22 am
I watched Aquaman. It's was pure campy as ****. I don't know if it was self-aware. At times it seemed like it was. Giant undersea battle was reminiscent of Star Wars....but like The Clone Wars. The kaiju was hilarious. Trident boner with the not-so-subtle background explosion during the face-sucking scene had to be intentional.

All in all, it was great in a "so bad it's good" kind of way. Not exactly what you're going for with a multi-million dollar blockbuster.

What kind of scoring system are we using here? At my age, I rank these things on the "did I fall asleep scale?"

I didn't fall asleep. I did spend some time looking at my cellphone though. Take that for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 18, 2019, 11:48:45 am
Also, Bohemian Rhapsody is the benchmark film for the word "mediocre."
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 19, 2019, 10:15:03 pm
Also, Bohemian Rhapsody is the benchmark film for the word "mediocre."

I'd heard most reviewers felt this way, but I'll watch it myself sooner or later anyway.  I gather that Rami Malek's performance was exceptional, even if the movie in general was not very good.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 19, 2019, 10:15:50 pm
I watched Aquaman. It's was pure campy as ****. I don't know if it was self-aware. At times it seemed like it was. Giant undersea battle was reminiscent of Star Wars....but like The Clone Wars. The kaiju was hilarious. Trident boner with the not-so-subtle background explosion during the face-sucking scene had to be intentional.

All in all, it was great in a "so bad it's good" kind of way.

That's why I want to see this.  All of these reasons!

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 19, 2019, 10:30:21 pm
1. I got SO MUCH HATE ON HERE for saying that.

No, you get SO MUCH HATE ON HERE for your belief that stories set in office buildings are inherently superior to other stories.

2. ME TOO.

Proof that the #MeToo movement has officially gone too far.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 19, 2019, 10:51:09 pm
Also, Bohemian Rhapsody is the benchmark film for the word "mediocre."

The trailers looked like **** when i saw them before the movie came out.  I was surprised it became a hit. Haven't seen it yet.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 19, 2019, 10:53:35 pm
That's why I want to see this.  All of these reasons!

 -k

Let's face it.  If Aquaman really did exist, he'd probably look Samoan, so at least this movie did something right.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 19, 2019, 11:37:01 pm
They tried to milk Star Wars but fans rebelled against Han Solo, and they've shut down a bunch of the Star Wars spinoffs as a result, so ticket sales speak.


The angry internet nerds would have you believe that their angry nerd boycott was the reason Han Solo tanked at the box office.  But the angry internet nerds were campaigning against Captain Marvel too, and it has turned out big even by Marvel "MCU" standards. So I think it's fair to suggest that the angry internet nerds aren't nearly as powerful as they think they are.

I think the real reason Han Solo (which I actually really enjoyed...) was a box office dud is that it was, as you say, just trying to cash in.  Fans didn't *want* a Han Solo reboot.   Once upon a time they tried to launch a Young Indiana Jones Adventures TV show, and people didn't want it. Later on, they tried to reboot Indiana Jones with Harrison Ford passing the torch to Shia LaBeouf, and people didn't want that either.  People didn't want Indiana Jones reboots starring anybody except Harrison Ford.  I don't think people wanted a Han Solo reboot starring anybody else either.   Disney assumed they could just put the name Han Solo on a product and people would flock to see it because everybody loves Han Solo.  They were wrong.

So what else did Disney have in the planning stages?  An Obi Wan Kenobi reboot, and a Boba Fett reboot.  Oops.  If fans didn't flock to see a Han Solo reboot, I'm pretty sure they weren't going to flock to Obi Wan or Boba either.  I'm actually **** glad that they cancelled that ****.   I'm glad they killed off the whole familiar characters reboot idea, because it sucks ass.   I'm sure glad they didn't get to the point of planning a Young Yoda and Young Chewbacca and Young frickin Jar Jar Binks Adventures.

There are a couple of Star Wars projects still in the works.  One of them is a new trilogy being planned by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss-- the guys behind Game of Thrones.   The rumor going around is that their trilogy will be set in the "Old Republic" age of the Star Wars universe.   Which means it's a clean break from the current movies and all the existing characters and the baggage that comes with them.  Which is great news as far as I'm concerned.  This is much like the Amazon Lord of the Rings series being set in the Second Age (as discussed in the TV thread).   This is the first time I've felt optimistic about the future of the Star Wars franchise in quite a while.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 20, 2019, 09:57:39 am
That's why I want to see this.  All of these reasons!

 -k
Go in with very low expectations. Get rewarded with over-the-top, campy special effects and nearly slapstick retelling of the Sword in the Stone tale. I was amused, but in terms of quality equivalents in the Marvel universe....this was about on par with Ant-Man.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 20, 2019, 10:00:18 am
I'd heard most reviewers felt this way, but I'll watch it myself sooner or later anyway.  I gather that Rami Malek's performance was exceptional, even if the movie in general was not very good.

 -k
The pacing was rushed, quite possibly because there are so many cuts in the editing, it felt like a music video....despite a drama unfolding. The story in almost non-existent. It's just a sequence of clips and events all strung together, in a nearly, but not quite, coherent way.

It's Queen....so it has that going for it. Rami Malek does well enough and the dude they get to play Brian May is a spitting image. But really, it's weakened by the fact that it presents us with nothing new, interesting, nor insightful about the lives of Freddy Mercury and his bandmates.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 20, 2019, 10:02:15 am
I think the real reason Han Solo (which I actually really enjoyed...) was a box office dud....
Do I need to go back and watch this? I literally fell asleep about 30 minutes into the film then got up and left the room when I woke up.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 21, 2019, 09:49:27 am
Do I need to go back and watch this? I literally fell asleep about 30 minutes into the film then got up and left the room when I woke up.

I think you'll be just fine without it.

It was fine if you take it as a stand-alone action adventure movie.  It doesn't tell you much about the character that you didn't already know. You see some of the stuff that you already knew about him. He meets Chewbacca. He meets Lando.  He wins the Falcon in a card game. He makes the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. He's all about the cash, except that he has a heart of gold. Etc.  You knew all this already.

I liked that they made a Star Wars movie with no Skywalkers, no Jedi, no Force, no fighting the Empire. It's some criminals, doing a heist, in a futuristic setting.  It shows a part of the Star Wars universe that you knew existed, but wasn't seen in other Star Wars movies.  And the young actors, especially Donald Glover, are good.  Donald Glover steals the show every time he's on the screen. But it's hardly essential viewing, even for Star Wars fans. It's just a fun movie.


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 21, 2019, 10:50:27 am

The angry internet nerds would have you believe that their angry nerd boycott was the reason Han Solo tanked at the box office.  But the angry internet nerds were campaigning against Captain Marvel too, and it has turned out big even by Marvel "MCU" standards. So I think it's fair to suggest that the angry internet nerds aren't nearly as powerful as they think they are.

I think the real reason Han Solo (which I actually really enjoyed...) was a box office dud is that it was, as you say, just trying to cash in.  Fans didn't *want* a Han Solo reboot.   Once upon a time they tried to launch a Young Indiana Jones Adventures TV show, and people didn't want it. Later on, they tried to reboot Indiana Jones with Harrison Ford passing the torch to Shia LaBeouf, and people didn't want that either.  People didn't want Indiana Jones reboots starring anybody except Harrison Ford.  I don't think people wanted a Han Solo reboot starring anybody else either.   Disney assumed they could just put the name Han Solo on a product and people would flock to see it because everybody loves Han Solo.  They were wrong.

I think there's a few factors that explain Han Solo's not doing great, some we've mentioned:

- the backlash to The Last Jedi, which a ton of fans were PO'd about.
- the fact it came out only a few months after The Last Jedi.  SW fans are used to waiting years or decades between SW films.  Some SW overkill here.
- Star Wars is much different than Marvel movies in that SW films are sacred to fans.  You can make all the crappy SW spin-off novels, comics, games etc, but the films are sacred, eff it up or try to milk it for cash-in & fans will sniff it out and rip you apart.
- It was a spin-off movie, which doesn't have the box office pull like the numbered entries in the series.  Rogue One was infinitely better than Force Awakens or Last Jedi, and arguably the best SW movie since Return of the Jedi, but it just didn't do as well in the box office.
- "Young Han Solo" was an ok idea but also a bit corny (as you say like Young Indiana Jones).
- Trailers and reviews were good not great.  Movie itself was good not great.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 22, 2019, 07:00:29 am
I think you'll be just fine without it.

It was fine if you take it as a stand-alone action adventure movie.  It doesn't tell you much about the character that you didn't already know. You see some of the stuff that you already knew about him. He meets Chewbacca. He meets Lando.  He wins the Falcon in a card game. He makes the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. He's all about the cash, except that he has a heart of gold. Etc.  You knew all this already.

I liked that they made a Star Wars movie with no Skywalkers, no Jedi, no Force, no fighting the Empire. It's some criminals, doing a heist, in a futuristic setting.  It shows a part of the Star Wars universe that you knew existed, but wasn't seen in other Star Wars movies.  And the young actors, especially Donald Glover, are good.  Donald Glover steals the show every time he's on the screen. But it's hardly essential viewing, even for Star Wars fans. It's just a fun movie.


 -k
See....this all SOUNDS great to me, but I felt like the execution was lacking. I do love me some Childish Gambino though, so I probably owe it to myself to at least stay awake until Lando shows up next time.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on March 22, 2019, 07:01:56 am
The Last Jedi was a great movie and the backlash was largely, if not entirely, a concerted effort by alt-right groups (namely the Kotaku in Action and Incel idiots) to flood public commentary on the film. They literally had Facebook groups to organize their brigading.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2019, 10:41:46 am
I think you'll be just fine without it.

It was fine if you take it as a stand-alone action adventure movie.  It doesn't tell you much about the character that you didn't already know. You see some of the stuff that you already knew about him. He meets Chewbacca. He meets Lando.  He wins the Falcon in a card game. He makes the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. He's all about the cash, except that he has a heart of gold. Etc.  You knew all this already.

I liked that they made a Star Wars movie with no Skywalkers, no Jedi, no Force, no fighting the Empire. It's some criminals, doing a heist, in a futuristic setting.  It shows a part of the Star Wars universe that you knew existed, but wasn't seen in other Star Wars movies.  And the young actors, especially Donald Glover, are good.  Donald Glover steals the show every time he's on the screen. But it's hardly essential viewing, even for Star Wars fans. It's just a fun movie.

I agree with all this.  For cyber, yup it's a fun action-adventure movie set in a SW world, it's worth a watch.  As I said, it's good, not great.  Go in with modest expectations & you'll have a good time.  I also fell asleep about 30 mins in.  I went back to re-watch and was glad i did.

It's kind of hokey in that they basically show literally everything you heard in the original trilogy about Han's backstory, Like kimmy was saying, and this all happens during a single mission he was on.  That tells me they didn't have much plans for a sequel and just wanted to blow their whole load and get everything in on this one film.  That was my only major criticism.  But it's still fun to see all that stuff, I'd watch a sequel if it happened.

I think the coolest part is seeing the otherwise beat-up old Falcon brand spanking new, all the interiors and exteriors.  Donny Glover also does an amazing job, he sounds exactly like Billy Dee, so much so it's freaky.  Woody Harrison also does a good job, I mean who doesn't love Woody?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2019, 11:04:39 am
The Last Jedi was a great movie and the backlash was largely, if not entirely, a concerted effort by alt-right groups (namely the Kotaku in Action and Incel idiots) to flood public commentary on the film. They literally had Facebook groups to organize their brigading.

Maybe the review-bombing was a bit of an organized affair.  But I post sometimes on Star Wars forums, lots of **** star wars nerds had problems with it.  I did too, but have come to appreciate it more.  My friends all had mixed feelings on it too.  It's not terrible, but it's not Rogue One either.  A lot of people, including Mark Hamil, had problems with how Luke was handled.  Some people like yourself genuinely liked it.  I can see why.

For me, it has a lot of great moments and yet a lot of cringy moments too, so I have mixed feelings on it, i like watching it but it's also flawed.  I like that it wasn't predictable.  Rian came up with a bunch of clever twists on our expectations.

It was mostly original, but almost too different from the original trilogy, the feel was off.  On the other hand, A Force Awakens was A New Hope remake with ESB scenes thrown in (Han dying on the bridge) with few original ideas.  I'm glad Rian threw away some of the remake plots he inherited.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 24, 2019, 01:20:18 pm
I also really enjoyed The Last Jedi, but I also understand that a lot of people didn't enjoy it for totally reasonable reasons.  It's hard to sort out how much of the negativity around the film was from actual people who were disappointed with the film and how much was due to the Gamergaters and 4chan types.  Those people have an outsized online presence, but I think everybody-- including they themselves-- greatly overestimate their real power.  It's like the cartoon thing where you see a menacing shadow on the wall, but it turns out to be a mouse standing in front of a flashlight. 

I think, ultimately, that if it was a poor-quality entry in the series that could kill this franchise, it was The Phantom Menace, not The Last Jedi, that would have done it. 

It was mostly original, but almost too different from the original trilogy, the feel was off.  On the other hand, A Force Awakens was A New Hope remake with ESB scenes thrown in (Han dying on the bridge) with few original ideas.  I'm glad Rian threw away some of the remake plots he inherited.

I agree with this. I feel like The Force Awakens was the movie that really deserved more scorn from the **** Star Wars fans, because Kennedy and Abrams threw a large portion of the Star Wars canon-- dozens or maybe hundreds of books set after Return Of The Jedi-- in the garbage and said "**** it, let's just remake A New Hope.  That was stupid.  I really liked that Rian Johnson took a bunch of the most derivative ideas in The Force Awakens and threw them in the trash or turned them on their head.   Kylo smashing the stupid mask was sort of emblematic of the whole theme, to me. He unceremoniously dumped Dollar Store Emperor Palpatine as well.  The idea that Rey's parents were nobodies... junk peddlers, or whatever he called them, was wonderful, and it says something about the whole Star Wars saga that it was such a radical idea to propose that a character didn't have some convoluted connection to previous characters.  I liked that he tried to break a bunch of Star Wars' dumber tropes, and felt a little disappointed that many fans seem to have rebelled against the idea. "We *want* Rey's parents to be somehow connected to the Skywalkers."  "We *want* Dollar Store Emperor Palpatine back!"


I also agree about Rogue One being a really great addition to the franchise.  It started slow, but the buildup to the ending was wonderful. It built up so much momentum in the final act of the movie that I was still amped while I was leaving the theatre. The way that the ending it perfectly dovetailed with the beginning of A New Hope was wonderful, the cameo of Princess Leia at the very end almost made me cry, and best of all the scene with Vader.  That was really the first time in any of the movies they gave you a sense of why everybody in the galaxy was so **** terrified of him.  It was so good.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 24, 2019, 02:14:06 pm
I did get out to see Captain Marvel yesterday, and I enjoyed it a lot.

The three principals are all very likeable. Brie Larson is just fine.  Samuel L Jackson is as charming as ever, and seems to be having a lot of fun here. And Reggie The Cat delivers a nuanced, understated performance as Goose.

What this movie has, more than any other MCU movie, is lots of Samuel L Jackson.  In the other movies, he's been a supporting character. Here, he's front and center, with almost as much screen time as Larson.  They could have made this as a cop buddy movie starring the two of them and it probably would have worked that way too. "She's a by-the-book rookie with a nose for the truth. He's a wily veteran who plays by his own rules."    You could almost imagine Jules Winston driving around with Carol Danvers instead of Vinnie Vega.  "Hey Jules, you know what they call a Quarter Pounder With Cheese on Hala?"   And they have a cat. All the scenes with a cat in them are winners.

There are lots of Easter eggs in the movie, little shout-outs to the comic-book lore of the character.  One scene where she's experimenting with different looks for her outfit gives a brief look at previous incarnations of her costume (though not the black swimwear with lightning-bolt  (https://i.imgur.com/WmRfsLO.jpg)look.)

The movie is set in 1995, and there are lots of nostalgic touches. One scene has Carol attempting to search for information using Alta Vista, but her dial-up connection crapped out before the page could load. Another has the characters all sitting patiently waiting for a computer to load some audio files from a CD.  Lots of 1990s music-- one of my favorite scenes had Carol, in a belligerent mood, roll up her sleeves and get busy with the bad-guys as "Just A Girl" by No Doubt plays.

The movie opens with a Stan Lee montage in place of the usual Marvel opening sequence. And there's a Stan Lee cameo, perhaps his last.  Coolest Easter egg ever: Stan is seen reading a script for "Mall Rats", the 1995 Kevin Smith movie where Stan Lee made his very first cameo appearance. Full circle. Kevin Smith discusses (https://tinyurl.com/y52tggsh).

"Trust me, True Believer!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vJpAXf5wyk

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on April 27, 2019, 05:32:52 pm
Avengers End Game has arrived in theatres, and is already smashing box office records.  The reviews are also extremely good.  I will be waiting for the chaos at the theatres to die down a little before I go.



Of course, these movies aren't for everyone. 

(https://i.imgur.com/OCNsxoZ.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on April 27, 2019, 06:03:17 pm
 :-[
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 27, 2019, 06:11:03 pm
The last Avengers movie was really good...  but with so many blockbuster super heroes dying, they are going to have to have some sort of “deus ex machina ” type plot device to bring back guys like Spider-Man.  I’ll be pretty disappointed  if they do something like that.

I haven’t looked to see if that’s what they did. 
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on April 28, 2019, 08:47:40 pm
The last Avengers movie was really good...  but with so many blockbuster super heroes dying, they are going to have to have some sort of “deus ex machina ” type plot device to bring back guys like Spider-Man.  I’ll be pretty disappointed  if they do something like that.

I haven’t looked to see if that’s what they did.

They showed the trailer for "Spiderman: Far From Home" when I went to Captain Marvel, so I have a hunch they're bringing him back.  :D


 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 28, 2019, 11:22:18 pm
They showed the trailer for "Spiderman: Far From Home" when I went to Captain Marvel, so I have a hunch they're bringing him back.  :D


 -k

I know they're bringing them back....    but they could have different timelines, I suppose, without ruining the Endgame movie. 
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on September 13, 2021, 09:41:06 pm
In 2016, Harley Quinn and The Joker put Clown-Americans in the spotlight and may have even helped Donald Trump become the first Clown-American President.

...and 5 years later, Margo Robbie once again dons the face paint and floppy shoes to reprise the role of Harley Quinn, the world's most dangerous Juggalo, in this summer's sequel to Suicide Squad, which they creatively called "THE Suicide Squad."


Along with Harley, other returning characters include Rick Flag and Amanda Waller. Waller is ruthless, heartless, cold-blooded government operative.  As in the first movie, Waller uses bribery and coercion to make imprisoned super-villains do her dirty-work for her. She has a job that needs to be done, and there can't be any evidence of the US government being involved.  Some of them she bribes, offering years off their prison terms.  Others, she threatens their families. Whichever the case, Waller always gets what she wants.

The supervillains she is able to recruit are not exactly household names. There's no Lex Luthor, Joker, or Darkseid in this crew.  Instead you get Bloodsport! Captain Boomerang! Javelin! King Shark! TDK! Peacemaker! Rat Catcher 2 and Sebastian! Polka Dot Man! The Weasel! Blackguard! Milton! And many others you haven't heard of!

Famed comics writer Frank Miller invented the tiny fictional nation of Corto Maltese in his legendary "Dark Knight" limited series in the 1980s. It's an imaginary banana republic in Latin America, a fictional stand-in for El Salvador or Nicaragua or Honduras or whichever country the United States was up to no good in during that particular week. A scene in which Superman is single-handedly crushing a rebellion in Corto Maltese demonstrated the extent to which the Man Of Steel's moral compass had gone astray.  The Suicide Squad is set in Corto Maltese as well, and for more or less the same reason.

Underdogs and misfits banding together to achieve something and find belonging has always been a winning movie theme, whether it's The Bad News Bears or The Replacements or The Guardians Of The Galaxy.  And The Suicide Squad does the same. They're not trying to win a baseball game, they're trying to complete a secret black-ops mission, but aside from that it's a lot like Bad News Bears.

I loved this very very much. It's insanely violent, hilarious, gross, crude, crass, ridiculous, heartwarming, uplifting, and inspiring. Also, I couldn't stop giggling any time The Weasel was on screen.  The first Suicide Squad film did great box office but was not very good. This Suicide Squad film did disappointing box office but was fantastic.

Idris Elba stars as Bloodsport, Margot Robbie returns as Harley Quinn, Violet Davis returns as Amanda Waller, John Cena is Peacemaker, and Portuguese actress Daniela Melchior is Ratcatcher 2, her first English-language role.  Kiwi wunderkind Taika Waititi has a small role as Ratcatcher 2's late father, and Sylvester Stallone provides the voice for King Shark.

Musical highlight: the opening credits to the tune of "People Who Died" by the Jim Carroll Band.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 01:44:39 am
Bit late to the thread here, but I just thought I'd address this...
The superhero genre has just become so formulaic and contrived.
It is true that there are some common elements in many super hero movies. (For example, all the Marvel movies with 1-off villains, battles with hoards of CGI monsters, snappy one liners, etc.)

But, for all that, there is also a significant amount of variety as well. Captain America: The First Avenger has elements of a historic movie. Guardians of the Galaxy is a sci-fi space thriller. Ant-Man is a heist movie. Captain America: Winter Soldier has elements of a spy movie.

And you can also find variety if you look at the main characters: Tony Stark is an egotistical snarky tech genius. Steve Rogers is an individual dedicated to the public good. Peter Parker is a teenager trying to figure out his place in the world. Bruce Banner may be a genius like Stark, but he lacks the ego (but instead substitutes concern over his condition).

Claiming that they are "all formulaic" is like claiming all westerns are the same because "they all have horses and guys with six-shooters".
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 05:02:20 am
 I hate that this genre is dominant.

A friend who is in his mid 40s likes 'em and recommended Deadpool.

No go.

Am I lost?  Does anyone over fifty like these?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: bcsapper on September 14, 2021, 08:53:59 am
I hate that this genre is dominant.

A friend who is in his mid 40s likes 'em and recommended Deadpool.

No go.

Am I lost?  Does anyone over fifty like these?

I grew up loving the comics.  There was a used book store in a local market that sold them for pennies. (If I'd kept all I had they might be worth more than pennies now)

I don't have the same enthusiasm for the movies though.  I've seen three or four, and they were okay, but they didn't fill me with a desire to keep up.

Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 09:31:54 am
I grew up loving the comics.  There was a used book store in a local market that sold them for pennies. (If I'd kept all I had they might be worth more than pennies now)

I don't have the same enthusiasm for the movies though.  I've seen three or four, and they were okay, but they didn't fill me with a desire to keep up.

I loved comics too.  I don't think the movies capture the same vibe.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 09:39:16 am
More thoughts:

These movies are loud and imposing.  They are very busy and frenetic.

Comics were quiet with bursts of excitement.  They were arcane and a secret passion for nerds.

Star wars was like a comic book. 

I want to understand this new medium as I hate being a naysayer but I don't have an 'in' path.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 10:05:51 am
I hate that this genre is dominant.
I can understand you not liking these movies. Not every film (or film genre) will appeal to everyone.

But the fact that the genre is dominant shouldn't really make much difference to you. Yes, Avengers: Endgame earned more money than many small countries have in GDP. Yes, 2 of the biggest movies in the theater right now are Marvel Comic book movies.

But, even a small theater will likely have a half-dozen or more screens, and even if they have multiple showings of comic book movies going on at the same time, there are still plenty of opportunities for films of other genres. (And that's not counting all the films on streaming services).

Right now, there are 2 comic book movies in theater... Shang-Chi and Black Widow. Both of them take up a lot of screens. But, there are also alternatives. Do you like horror movies? You have Don't Breath and Malignant. Want a serious drama? Stillwater. Want a non-comic action movies? F9 or Jungle Cruise. Want something animated or more appropriate for kids? Boss Baby or Space Jam. And that doesn't count all the movies that are either coming soon, or have gone to my local repatory theater. (Granted, if you live in a small down with only a single-screen theater you won't have those options, but most Canadians do live in bigger population centers.)
Quote
A friend who is in his mid 40s likes 'em and recommended Deadpool.
No go.
Am I lost?  Does anyone over fifty like these?
I am over 50 and I like them. (And, I didn't even read comic books as a kid, so its not like I am reliving my younger days.)

I appreciate them for several reasons:
- The special effects and action scenes. (The same sort of reason people may watch Star Wars or the Fast and Furious movies... the fact that Super Hero Movies have, well, Super Heroes just provides a reason for the action to happen)

- The story lines can sometimes be well-thought out. (Which makes sense... comic book movies are drawing on decades of printed material, so they have a built-in repository of plot ideas that have worked.) Granted, this can be sort of hit-and-miss; Marvel/Disney is smart in picking the right people to head up the comics division, who have a good idea of what work. On the other hand, DC involved Zac "Color? what's that" Snyder to build up its universe, which has result in... less than stellar results.

- For movies based on guys running around in spandex and punching each other (all the while uttering 1-line quips), they can often have very dramatic moments. It was a well-done scene at the end of Infinity war when Spider-person says "I don't feel good" as he gets dusted, or the death scene/funeral at the end of End Game.

Overall, I just find the movies fun (Well, many of them anyways), and I haven't yet outgrown the idea that movies CAN be straight-up entertainment. They aren't the only type of movie I watch (I can appreciate a good drama, or comedy, or a non-super hero sci-fi or action movie), but I still like them.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 14, 2021, 10:21:19 am
 Not a movie….   But anyone watch “The Boys”?

It takes the superhero movie and flips it on its head.  The “heroes” are egotistical psychopaths that get away with murder with good marketing from a company that created them and tries to manage their image. 

The heroes are the normal people who are trying to expose them for what they really are. 

It’s on Amazon Prime.

I thought it was excellent.




https://youtu.be/tcrNsIaQkb4
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 10:29:52 am
I can understand you not liking these movies. Not every film (or film genre) will appeal to everyone.

There are lots of genres I hate but I generally always LIKE the best of the genre.

Scifi horror ?  Bleah.  The original Alien ?  Perfect.

Quote
But the fact that the genre is dominant shouldn't really make much difference to you. Yes, Avengers: Endgame earned more money than many small countries have in GDP. Yes, 2 of the biggest movies in the theater right now are Marvel Comic book movies.

Well, it makes a difference for two reasons:

1. I feel left out ... and my choices are drastically reduced
2. I wonder why this kind of utter escapism prevails and feel alienated in a different way


Quote
But, even a small theater will likely have a half-dozen or more screens, and even if they have multiple showings of comic book movies going on at the same time, there are still plenty of opportunities for films of other genres. (And that's not counting all the films on streaming services).

I think it's fairly common knowledge that other genres are dying because Superhero films are date night films.
 
Quote
- For movies based on guys running around in spandex and punching each other (all the while uttering 1-line quips), they can often have very dramatic moments. It was a well-done scene at the end of Infinity war when Spider-person says "I don't feel good" as he gets dusted, or the death scene/funeral at the end of End Game.

I can appreciate good scenes and still not like the movie overall.  I loved one scene in Titanic and it almost saved the movie for me.  Still didn't like it.

Quote
Overall, I just find the movies fun (Well, many of them anyways), and I haven't yet outgrown the idea that movies CAN be straight-up entertainment. They aren't the only type of movie I watch (I can appreciate a good drama, or comedy, or a non-super hero sci-fi or action movie), but I still like them.

Ok - toss me one then - something on Prime or Netflix ok ?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 10:30:25 am
Ahhh thanks Squid I will try that one.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 10:35:27 am
More thoughts:

These movies are loud and imposing.  They are very busy and frenetic
Well, yes, they are. But then, so are pretty much ever action or sci-fi adventure movie. Its the nature of stuff that's not a drama or comedy.

And despite them being "busy and frenetic", they do have their... quieter... moments.

Look at End Game (well, Ok, you probably didn't see it, but you know what I mean)... Lots of over-the-top action, ending in a huge CGI battle where the heroes face off against an army of nameless villains. But it also had quieter moments, such as scenes with Stark lost in space and trying to survive. Or some of the scenes where people are trying to handle the post-blip society. Or Thor talking to people on Asgard. Or sometimes those quieter moments had elements of humor (the early attempts at time travel).

And those moments were much better done than (for example) the "drama/humor" in many of the Star Wars prequels/sequels.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 10:40:23 am
Well, yes, they are. But then, so are pretty much ever action or sci-fi adventure movie. Its the nature of stuff that's not a drama or comedy.

I suppose so.  I even have movies that I have seen that are 100% chaos at times - like the last bit of Texas Chainsaw which is essentially just screaming.  I have seen it several times in the cinema and you leave just numb from the adrenaline. 

Maybe I need to try another one.


 

Quote
Look at End Game (well, Ok, you probably didn't see it, but you know what I mean)... Lots of over-the-top action, ending in a huge CGI battle where the heroes face off against an army of nameless villains. But it also had quieter moments, such as scenes with Stark lost in space and trying to survive. Or some of the scenes where people are trying to handle the post-blip society. Or Thor talking to people on Asgard. Or sometimes those quieter moments had elements of humor (the early attempts at time travel).

And those moments were much better done than (for example) the "drama/humor" in many of the Star Wars prequels/sequels.

I had a feeling that whatever movie you were talking about would come up if I just googled End Game.

So "Avengers End Game" came up.  Is that it ?  People like that one ?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 10:40:59 am
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avengers_endgame

whoa

 
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 10:42:52 am
Not a movie….   But anyone watch “The Boys”?
It takes the superhero movie and flips it on its head.  The “heroes” are egotistical psychopaths that get away with murder with good marketing from a company that created them and tries to manage their image. 
The heroes are the normal people who are trying to expose them for what they really are. 
I thought it was excellent.
I agree... its an excellent series. Some decent story lines, some good action and drama. Characters that are warped enough to be interesting but not dull. And some very good touches of humor.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 11:00:48 am
Quote
Well, yes, they are. But then, so are pretty much ever action or sci-fi adventure movie. Its the nature of stuff that's not a drama or comedy.
I suppose so.  I even have movies that I have seen that are 100% chaos at times - like the last bit of Texas Chainsaw which is essentially just screaming.  I have seen it several times in the cinema and you leave just numb from the adrenaline. 

Maybe I need to try another one.
Maybe, but if its not a genre that you like then trying to force yourself to watch them will probably just be a bad experience.

(Kind of like telling a person "I don't like heavy metal grunge fusion folk rock"..... and someone telling you "Oh, but you haven't heard this particular heavy metal grunge fusion folk rock song", which ends up sounding just like every other song of that type.)

Quote
Quote
Look at End Game (well, Ok, you probably didn't see it, but you know what I mean)... Lots of over-the-top action, ending in a huge CGI battle where the heroes face off against an army of nameless villains. But it also had quieter moments, such as scenes with Stark lost in space and trying to survive. Or some of the scenes where people are trying to handle the post-blip society. Or Thor talking to people on Asgard. Or sometimes those quieter moments had elements of humor (the early attempts at time travel).

And those moments were much better done than (for example) the "drama/humor" in many of the Star Wars prequels/sequels.
I had a feeling that whatever movie you were talking about would come up if I just googled End Game.

So "Avengers End Game" came up.  Is that it ?
Yes that is the one.

Had you seriously not heard of that movie? I can understand not wanting to see it in the theater, but still I'm surprised that you hadn't at least heard of it... It broke all sorts of box-office records, and for a while it was the top box-office draw of all movies (even beating Avatar, before Avatar was re-released.)
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People like that one ?
Yes, very much so. As you showed in another post, it got a 94% on Rotten tomatoes from critics, and a 90% from the audience. (Not to mention all the box office records it broke).

Unfortunately for you, I would not recommend watching it (at least not at this point)... It is a movie that is part of the larger "Marvel Cinematic Universe", and events in THAT movie depend on knowing the people and characters in earlier movies (most notably Avengers: Infinity War).

To me, its a double-edged sword... such a complex set of movies makes it hard to just "jump in" to a particular movie. (Kind of like if you tried watching one of the Star Wars sequels without having seen A New Hope.) But for me, I have an appreciation for the way they have built the Universe over multiple movies. Events in one movie end up having an impact in movies that initially seem un-related. But it requires a huge buy-in.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 11:33:50 am
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But the fact that the genre is dominant shouldn't really make much difference to you. Yes, Avengers: Endgame earned more money than many small countries have in GDP. Yes, 2 of the biggest movies in the theater right now are Marvel Comic book movies.
Well, it makes a difference for two reasons:

1. I feel left out ...
I know it probably doesn't mean much, but I'd have to say you shouldn't FEEL left out. Unless all your friends go to super-hero movies, and hang out at Comicon, you don't need to join in to the love of super-heroes to avoid feeling left-out.
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and my choices are drastically reduced
They are reduced, but as I said before, you still have plenty of alternatives in the theater and on streaming.
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2. I wonder why this kind of utter escapism prevails and feel alienated in a different way
For the same reason people like the escapism of Star Wars, or the Fast and Furious movies, or even the James Bond movies.... many people are naturally drawn to that type of entertainment.
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I think it's fairly common knowledge that other genres are dying because Superhero films are date night films.
I am not really sure that Super Hero movies are 'killing' other genres.

You are seeing a shift in theater-going habits... better technology in home theaters, technology like streaming and DVDs means that the theatrical life of some movies is curtailed. If your local Megaplex wasn't showing a movie with guys dressed in spandex punching each other, I doubt you'd see more serious dramas or comedies in the theatre. Instead, you'd see other types of bug, huge dumb blockbusters (like Transformers 23: Optimus gets a prostate exam). Or, the theater would just close up because, well, why go to the theater to see "Seth Rogen makes jokes" when  you can stream it on Netflix at home?
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Overall, I just find the movies fun (Well, many of them anyways), and I haven't yet outgrown the idea that movies CAN be straight-up entertainment. They aren't the only type of movie I watch (I can appreciate a good drama, or comedy, or a non-super hero sci-fi or action movie), but I still like them.
Ok - toss me one then - something on Prime or Netflix ok ?
That's actually getting kind of hard to do.

Many of the best super-hero movies are from Marvel. Others are from Fox. But Disney has bought both of those, and many of the titles have been pulled from Netflix and Prime, to be shown only on Disney+.

There were also the DC movies (like Man of Steel and Superman v Batman) that might be available on Netflix, but many people find the DC movies to be a bit... lackluster.

Then of course there is the issue I have mentioned in previous postings: Many Super Hero movies have tie-ins to other super hero films, which can make it confusing for anyone who simply want to "jump in".

If you really want to give comic book movies another try, I might recommend "Iron Man". It was one of the first movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (so you wouldn't have had to have seen others in the franchise). And, it had many elements that I like about the genre... decent special effects/action, mix of humor and drama. (Unfortunately it is no longer on Netflix. Although you may be able to catch it on the regular TV.) Another alternative would be Guardians of the Galaxy (another Marvel movie which is more of a space adventure. It does rely a lot more on humor, for what its worth.)

Or you can try movies in the X-men franchise (starting from the original X-men movie), but the quality of those films was all over the place.

Of course the greatest Super Hero of all (and the greatest Super hero to ever grace the big screen) was Orgazmo. But good luck finding it on any streaming service.

Edited to add:
I almost forgot... once set of decent super hero moves that is available on Netflix is the Batman trilogy series by Christopher Nolan (with Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman). They are a lot more serious than (for example) the Marvel movies... the director took a lot more grounded approach to them. (He's still a vigilante dressed in a bat costume and has fantastic gadgets, but there's no 'super hero flying', very little humor, etc.) The first 2 movies were good... Batman Begins, and The Dark Knight (the Dark Night has over 90% critical acclaim on Rotten Tomatoes, and won multiple Oscars.) The third movie (Dark Knight Rises) was, in my opinion, much less good.

If you want to make another attempt at Super Heroes, MAYBE Batman Begins/Dark Knight might work for you. Just don't get your hopes up.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 12:42:10 pm


That's actually getting kind of hard to do.

Many of the best super-hero movies are from Marvel. Others are from Fox. But Disney has bought both of those, and many of the titles have been pulled from Netflix and Prime, to be shown only on Disney+.

Ah balls.


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Many Super Hero movies have tie-ins to other super hero films, which can make it confusing for anyone who simply want to "jump in".

Double balls.

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If you really want to give comic book movies another try, I might recommend "Iron Man". It was one of the first movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (so you wouldn't have had to have seen others in the franchise). And, it had many elements that I like about the genre... decent special effects/action, mix of humor and drama.

I saw the first one and big meh.

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I almost forgot... once set of decent super hero moves that is available on Netflix is the Batman trilogy series by Christopher Nolan (with Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman). They are a lot more serious than (for example) the Marvel movies... the director took a lot more grounded approach to them. (He's still a vigilante dressed in a bat costume and has fantastic gadgets, but there's no 'super hero flying', very little humor, etc.) The first 2 movies were good... Batman Begins, and The Dark Knight (the Dark Night has over 90% critical acclaim on Rotten Tomatoes, and won multiple Oscars.) The third movie (Dark Knight Rises) was, in my opinion, much less good.

Oh yeah - I think I DID see that !  :O and it was good too...
 
What about The Joker - is that in that series ?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 14, 2021, 02:08:15 pm
Superhero flicks are hit and miss and usually meh.  Some standouts are the first Guardians of the Galaxy, Logan, Deadpool 1, Black Panther, and Avengers: Infinity War  and Endgame.  Civil War, Winter Solider, the the first Thor movie were also good.

The others were meh or crappy.  They've made so many movies they're now scraping the bottom of the barrel making films of crappy characters like Shangi-Chi, Black Widow etc.  I don't want to watch Marvel movies anymore, unless they make a good X-men movie.  I look forward to the new Batman if it's any good.

The worst thing about these movies is that they take up all the blockbuster real estate at the box office.  In the 2000's you had some superhero movies but also Lord of the Rings movies, Harry Potter films, Star Wars prequels etc.  Now its just Marvel/Star Wars Disney crap.

The most impressive thing is that they took all 20-something films and made an intertwining story with all of them that culminated in Avengers Infinity War and Endgame.  That's the most ambitious film project in cinematic history by far.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 03:23:22 pm
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If you really want to give comic book movies another try, I might recommend "Iron Man". It was one of the first movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (so you wouldn't have had to have seen others in the franchise). And, it had many elements that I like about the genre... decent special effects/action, mix of humor and drama.
I saw the first one and big meh.
Well, if you didn't like the first Iron Man, you probably won't get much out of the rest of the Marvel movies. (Not that they're "All the Same", since many of them do cross different genre boundaries, but its kind of the "standard" for their particular brand.)

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I almost forgot... once set of decent super hero moves that is available on Netflix is the Batman trilogy series by Christopher Nolan (with Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman).
Oh yeah - I think I DID see that !  :O and it was good too...
So super hero movies aren't a TOTAL write-off for you.
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What about The Joker - is that in that series ?
No, its not part of any series. It is a completely stand-alone movie that has nothing to do with either the 3 Christian Bale/Christopher Nolan Batman movies, nor the later Zac Snyder movies (Batman v. Superman/Justice League). You can see it without having seen any other movies. (You might actually like it too... no appearance by Batman, nobody else in tights. More of a psychological study on someone trying to cope with mental illness and the stresses of being disadvantaged.) And it is on Netflix. (To nitpick: It was actually just called "Joker" instead of "The Joker".)

Personally, I thought it was... OK. Acting was good. No real humor in it (but I wasn't expecting any). But I did think the plot was a little weak.

That is one of the differences between the 2 brands... Marvel has gone great lengths to develop a cohesive set of films that all fit together in the same "universe", with different movies fitting into the whole big grand scheme of things. In my opinion, its quite impressive to accomplish that across over a dozen movies.

On the other hand DC has done things... differently. They made the 3 Nolan batman movies, then the Zac Snyder movies (that had nothing to do with the Nolan movies). Now they're making more movies that are follow-ups/sequels to the Justice League, but they are also coming out with a Batman movie that has nothing to do with any of the recent movies. Then there were the 2 "Suicide Squad" movies, the first was related to the Snyder movies, the second was sort of a sequel but not really a sequel, since it had a couple of the same characters but they made no reference to the first one.

I find the differences in approaches between the 2 companies rather interesting to examine.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 03:44:50 pm
Superhero flicks are hit and miss and usually meh.  Some standouts are the first Guardians of the Galaxy, Logan, Deadpool 1, Black Panther, and Avengers: Infinity War  and Endgame.  Civil War, Winter Solider, the the first Thor movie were also good.

The others were meh or crappy.  They've made so many movies they're now scraping the bottom of the barrel making films of crappy characters like Shangi-Chi, Black Widow etc.
I thought they were scraping the bottom of the barrel with Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant Man (neither of whom were well-known properties), but they somehow managed to pull it off and make movies that were somewhat enjoyable/successful.
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The worst thing about these movies is that they take up all the blockbuster real estate at the box office.  In the 2000's you had some superhero movies but also Lord of the Rings movies, Harry Potter films, Star Wars prequels etc.  Now its just Marvel/Star Wars Disney crap.
Well, even after Marvel started to release their movies (back in 2009), you still had Avatar, Jurassic World, Fast and Furious films, Transformers movies, James Bond movies, the Hobbit films, and various animated movies from Pixar and Disney, all of which rival many of the Marvel and DC movies. So there appears to be plenty of "blockbuster real estate" that hasn't been taken up by super hero films.

(If people remember the super hero movies more, its perhaps because at least some of them were pretty well done, and Marvel has kept up the quality, whereas things like the Star Wars sequel trilogy, Transformers, etc. have descended into junk.)
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 14, 2021, 05:52:27 pm
News flash! People here saying I have to watch Infiniti war?! Or I can't watch and game?! There all try to help me out
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 14, 2021, 08:06:25 pm
News flash! People here saying I have to watch Infiniti war?! Or I can't watch and game?! There all try to help me out

It's a 2-part story.  Infinity War continues with End Game.  They're both good movies, I actually liked Infinity War better.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 14, 2021, 09:49:40 pm
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News flash! People here saying I have to watch Infiniti war?! Or I can't watch and game?! There all try to help me out
It's a 2-part story.  Infinity War continues with End Game.
Yup, its kind of like watching Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows 2, without seeing part 1 first.

Of course, even if you watch Infinity War first, you might still be a bit confused regarding some of the other characters and events referenced from previous movies. (Although if you were a regular comic book reader when young, you might recognize enough of the plot points and characters from there that you wouldn't be totally lost.)
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They're both good movies, I actually liked Infinity War better.
I have to agree... Stronger dramatic moments, more classic one-liners in Infinity War. I am happy with both of them though.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on September 15, 2021, 12:33:50 am
News flash! People here saying I have to watch Infiniti war?! Or I can't watch and game?! There all try to help me out

okay bubba so first off, it's "Infinity War", not "Infiniti War".  This isn't a Nissan product.

So also, the Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame movies were, genuinely, pretty amazing because, as Poonlight and Segnosaur said, they're the culmination of a story that has been built through at least a dozen previous movies. Love or hate the result, I don't think anything similar has even been attempted before. Infinity War and Endgame provided, I think, a really satisfying conclusion to a family of films that while more or less able to stand on their own,  were also loosely interconnected to a greater whole. 

I think that what's really compelling about "Endgame" is that it provides fulfilling completions to stories of characters that you've become emotionally connected with in previous films. If you've seen the previous Captain America films, seeing Steve Rogers finish his story in the arms of Peggy Carter might make your eyes tear up. If you don't know who Peggy Carter is, then not so much. If you've seen the previous Marvel movies, you can appreciate that seeing Tony Stark travel to the past and meet his father as a young man is an enchanting moment.  If you haven't, then maybe not so much.  There are some truly wonderful things that happen in these films, but if you aren't already immersed in the lore, you wouldn't fully appreciate it.  As Segnosaur said, there's a lot of buy-in to fully appreciate what they've done in these movies.  But for me, watching these movies along the way wasn't a chore, wasn't homework to appreciate a bigger payoff down the road. These movies were great fun in their own right, regardless of being part of a bigger payoff down the road.

One scene in Endgame has Steve Rogers telling Natasha that he'd seen dolphins jumping in the harbour that day.  Less pollution and less human traffic was a real plus of the post-Infinity War world, apparently, because the dolphins were bouncing back.  Natasha told him that she'd beat him with her sandwich if he kept trying to boost her spirits with **** like that.

That was pre-Covid. Last year I read an article stating that dolphins had been seen in Vienna's harbour for the first time in decades, thanks to reduced pollution and human traffic due to Covid. It immediately made me think of that scene in Endgame.


  -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on September 15, 2021, 12:44:20 am
I hate that this genre is dominant.

A friend who is in his mid 40s likes 'em and recommended Deadpool.

No go.

Am I lost?  Does anyone over fifty like these?

I'll tell you in a couple of decades bubba  :P

I liked Deadpool, but Deadpool is fourth-wall breaking, self-referential, genre-skewering silliness.  I feel like to really enjoy Deadpool you have to like the genre enough to laugh along at the genre tropes they're making fun of.  I picture MH watching Deadpool pointing at the screen and shouting "I KNOW, RIGHT?!" and "THIS, but UNIRONICALLY!"

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on September 15, 2021, 12:59:43 am
I thought they were scraping the bottom of the barrel with Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant Man (neither of whom were well-known properties), but they somehow managed to pull it off and make movies that were somewhat enjoyable/successful.

I think that what made Guardians really special is that it was so completely outside the box. It's directed by James Gunn, who also directed The Suicide Squad movie that I was raving about yesterday (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/superhero-movies/?message=80277). The movies have a lot in common. I think they're the two best-reviewed "superhero" movies since Christopher Nolan's Batman movies way back when. I thought Guardians was a risky idea at the time, but it was an amazing success and it kind of laid the groundwork for the Infinity War movies. The Marvel nameplate got people in the seats, but a genuinely endearing group of characters is what made the movie so beloved.

Well, even after Marvel started to release their movies (back in 2009), you still had Avatar, Jurassic World, Fast and Furious films, Transformers movies, James Bond movies, the Hobbit films, and various animated movies from Pixar and Disney, all of which rival many of the Marvel and DC movies. So there appears to be plenty of "blockbuster real estate" that hasn't been taken up by super hero films.

(If people remember the super hero movies more, its perhaps because at least some of them were pretty well done, and Marvel has kept up the quality, whereas things like the Star Wars sequel trilogy, Transformers, etc. have descended into junk.)

I think that even pre-covid, movie economics had changed to favor blockbusters rather than modest-budget movies. Post-covid, almost all of the major theatrical releases have been Disney. I think that right now there's a lot of anxiety about theatrical releases, and a belief that only blockbuster type movies will get people out to theatres at all. On the bright side, Netflix and Amazon Prime are giving venues to movies that might have never seen a theatrical release even before covid.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 15, 2021, 01:40:40 pm
I think that even pre-covid, movie economics had changed to favor blockbusters rather than modest-budget movies. Post-covid, almost all of the major theatrical releases have been Disney. I think that right now there's a lot of anxiety about theatrical releases, and a belief that only blockbuster type movies will get people out to theatres at all. On the bright side, Netflix and Amazon Prime are giving venues to movies that might have never seen a theatrical release even before covid.
For all the complaints about Super Hero movies "killing" the movie industry, there were more than twice as many movies released in 2019 (pre covid, 792) as there were in 2000 (371).

See: https://www.statista.com/statistics/187122/movie-releases-in-north-america-since-2001/

The industry is changing in a lot of ways... the budgets for blockbusters seems to be increasing, but improved technology makes it easier to produce low-budget movies. Streaming and better televisions in the home are diverting people from the theater, but its giving new life to movies that might otherwise not find an audience.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on September 15, 2021, 02:18:35 pm
Streaming and better televisions in the home are diverting people from the theater, but its giving new life to movies that might otherwise not find an audience.

I get it.  But I want my cake and my pie.

I love the galaxies of quality stuff out there.  But the big screens never have anything good - one or two choices only.

Cake.

Pie.

NOW.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Dia on September 25, 2021, 10:09:29 am
Not a movie….   But anyone watch “The Boys”?

It takes the superhero movie and flips it on its head.  The “heroes” are egotistical psychopaths that get away with murder with good marketing from a company that created them and tries to manage their image. 

The heroes are the normal people who are trying to expose them for what they really are. 

It’s on Amazon Prime.

I thought it was excellent.




https://youtu.be/tcrNsIaQkb4

Yeah, that's a good series, and seems more real to life if superheroes actually existed.   Superheroes who aren't intrinsically altruistic, but messily human and have unusual powers being exploited by a corporation is a good take.  Looking forward to it's return.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Dia on September 25, 2021, 10:27:07 am
I hate that this genre is dominant.

A friend who is in his mid 40s likes 'em and recommended Deadpool.

No go.

Am I lost?  Does anyone over fifty like these?

In our 60s here.  I scoffed at them for a long time, but then watched Dr Strange and Guardians of the Galaxy, and was hooked.  My partner still has to tell me who a lot of the characters are and how they're related because he read the comics.

Most shows with super villains leave me wondering why they just randomly want to destroy humans, but the Infinity War/Endgame movies gave a reason.  Thanos was convinced his evil was for the greater good, and plenty of people might even agree with him, in theory.  I liked knowing his motivation wasn't simply that he hated humankind for some obscure reason or no reason at all.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on September 27, 2021, 07:31:16 pm
Most shows with super villains leave me wondering why they just randomly want to destroy humans, but the Infinity War/Endgame movies gave a reason.
Apparently, in the comics, Thanos wants to wipe out half of all life because he has a romantic crush on "Death" and wants to impress her.
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Thanos was convinced his evil was for the greater good, and plenty of people might even agree with him, in theory.  I liked knowing his motivation wasn't simply that he hated humankind for some obscure reason or no reason at all.
Some people think the best movie villains are ones you can look at and actually agree with their point (at least on some level).

Black Panther was similar.... the main antagonist was one who thought Wakanda should be doing more to help the disadvantaged. (Which he sort of had a point.)
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 27, 2021, 07:56:31 pm
Apparently, in the comics, Thanos wants to wipe out half of all life because he has a romantic crush on "Death" and wants to impress her.

Also a very relatable motivation! 
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: cybercoma on October 08, 2021, 12:49:04 pm
Bit late to the thread here, but I just thought I'd address this...It is true that there are some common elements in many super hero movies. (For example, all the Marvel movies with 1-off villains, battles with hoards of CGI monsters, snappy one liners, etc.)

But, for all that, there is also a significant amount of variety as well. Captain America: The First Avenger has elements of a historic movie. Guardians of the Galaxy is a sci-fi space thriller. Ant-Man is a heist movie. Captain America: Winter Soldier has elements of a spy movie.

And you can also find variety if you look at the main characters: Tony Stark is an egotistical snarky tech genius. Steve Rogers is an individual dedicated to the public good. Peter Parker is a teenager trying to figure out his place in the world. Bruce Banner may be a genius like Stark, but he lacks the ego (but instead substitutes concern over his condition).

Claiming that they are "all formulaic" is like claiming all westerns are the same because "they all have horses and guys with six-shooters".
You're right. Here's the thing: sometimes you want a Big Mac, and it's satisfying, but most of the time it's just completely unfulfilling compared to a real meal.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on October 08, 2021, 12:56:24 pm
Did I mention I liked FREE GUY ?

Is that Superhero ?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on October 13, 2021, 04:36:01 pm
Did I mention I liked FREE GUY ?

Is that Superhero ?
The definition of 'super hero' movie is actually kind of vague.

I think we can all agree that Superman is a 'super hero movie'. But you also have movies like Guardians of the Galaxy... which is a space movie (with aliens and whatnot) that originated in comic books. But if you accept Guardians of the Galaxy as a super movie, does that also mean that Star Wars is (since you have people using super powers, i.e. "the force")?
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 13, 2021, 06:43:13 pm
But if you accept Guardians of the Galaxy as a super movie, does that also mean that Star Wars is (since you have people using super powers, i.e. "the force")?
Yes. And it's a sub-genre of science fiction. Also include Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Tarzan and Sherlock Holmes (?). Superman started the sub-sub genre where they wear long underwear.
As super villains go, Darth Vader is Dr. Doom in space.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on October 16, 2021, 02:27:25 am
For me seeing Mad Max: Fury Road in the theatre was one of my favorite movie experiences, ever.  I went to see it with friends in 2-d, I went to see it by myself in 3-d, I bought it on Blu-Ray.

After giving myself a few weeks to calm down and get it out of my system, I feel like this year's  The Suicide Squad (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/superhero-movies/?message=80277) movie was as close to the visceral thrill I got from Fury Road as I've been since.

I feel like people are often too inclined to grade a movie based on what is in their heads as opposed to in their hearts or in their stomachs.  I think that Fury Road, if you grade it based on your head is about 4/10, but if you grade it on your heart or stomach it's 10/10. I felt similarly about The Suicide Squad.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: kimmy on March 29, 2022, 02:23:29 am
I went to see the new Batman movie on Saturday.  I hadn't planned to, wasn't interested in going... but Lindsey's niece and her BFF were visiting her this weekend, and they're huge Robert Pattinson fans because of the Twilight movies. So we went to see The Batman.

I actually REALLY LIKED IT.

It has a beautiful visual feel and incredible atmosphere.  It looks and sounds perfect.  From a purely aesthetic standpoint, it's a masterpiece.

This Batman movie is an unsettling serial killer mystery, as Batman tries to track down a very creepy reimagining of the Riddler before he kills more people. This isn't a happy laughing dude in green tights covered with question marks. This Riddler isn't funny, he's just plain scary.  I think the closest movie comparison I can think of for the mood of The Batman is "Se7en".

I was skeptical of Robert Pattinson as Bruce Wayne, but I really liked him in this. Other incarnations of the character have been middle-aged and more sure of their mission.  The Robert Pattinson Bruce Wayne is younger and still trying to figure out his place in the world, both as Batman and as the heir to the Wayne family legacy.  He has a lot to learn about Gotham, and his father, and himself. He is still trying to chart a course in the world, and when we first meet him... dressing up in a costume and beating up criminals is the only thing that makes sense to him. Early in the film he tells one of his targets "I am vengeance" but by the end of the movie he realizes how stupid those words are.

My complaint with the movie, and it's a big one, is that it's very long. Nearly 3 hours. It didn't need to be this long, and drags at some points.  Still, this is really good.

 -k
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 06:27:53 am
I'll tell you in a couple of decades bubba  :P

I liked Deadpool, but Deadpool is fourth-wall breaking, self-referential, genre-skewering silliness.  I feel like to really enjoy Deadpool you have to like the genre enough to laugh along at the genre tropes they're making fun of.  I picture MH watching Deadpool pointing at the screen and shouting "I KNOW, RIGHT?!" and "THIS, but UNIRONICALLY!"

 -k

A lot of people liked it.  I was curious, but chose Licorice Pizza instead.

Great film.

I am now four Batman reboots old.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 29, 2022, 07:18:27 am
I count seven, unless you weren't around for Adam West (to Michael Keaton to Val Kilmer to George Clooney to Christian Bale to Ben Affleck to Robert Pattinson).
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 10:37:21 am
I count seven, unless you weren't around for Adam West (to Michael Keaton to Val Kilmer to George Clooney to Christian Bale to Ben Affleck to Robert Pattinson).

Val and George and Ben weren't reboots just new movies. 
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 11:43:48 am
Batman is now a pale sexy romantic vampire.

Haven't seen it, looks decent.  I chose Jackass Forever over The Batman and have no regrets.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 11:50:35 am
Batman is now a pale sexy romantic vampire.

Haven't seen it, looks decent.  I chose Jackass Forever over The Batman and have no regrets.

Batman Reboot 1: Camp comedy on Colour TV - ABC's Batman Series
Batman Reboot 2: Michael Keaton stars as Batman in a Tim Burton directed gothic blockbuster with Jack Nicholson as the Villain
Batman Reboot 3: After the Blockbuster series wanes, Christian Bale emerges as a darker, more real Batman
Batman Reboot 4: Batman with Robert Pattison, the return of The Detective Batman

I won't watch it but I liked Pattison in The Lighthouse
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 29, 2022, 12:11:29 pm
Fair enough. The same actor played Alfred in all four of the blockbusters, so I guess it was the same universe but with different actors playing Batman. But Michael Caine was Alfred in the Dark Knight trilogy and Jeremy Irons was in Justice League. So by the Rule of Alfred, Ben Affleck was a rebooted Batman that never had a standalone movie.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 03:54:29 pm
It would be cool if Batman had to retire and Alfred became a superhero.  Like some kind of Iron Man-type suit that made old people awesome and powerful.  This will bring the old white spunker demographic back to the theatre, where most haven't been since Titanic.
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: segnosaur on March 29, 2022, 11:03:03 pm
It would be cool if Batman had to retire and Alfred became a superhero.  Like some kind of Iron Man-type suit that made old people awesome and powerful.
Already done.

In the Harley Quinn animated series, Alfred saves Batman's life when he makes an appearance as a superhero vigilante "the Macaroni" (where he takes the persona of your typical 18th century aristocrat (with the huge wig, containing weapons).
Title: Re: Superhero Movies
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 30, 2022, 12:52:02 am
Already done.

In the Harley Quinn animated series, Alfred saves Batman's life when he makes an appearance as a superhero vigilante "the Macaroni" (where he takes the persona of your typical 18th century aristocrat (with the huge wig, containing weapons).

Sweet!  Looks like I'm going as The Macaroni for Halloween.