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Beyond Canada => American Politics => Topic started by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 05:49:46 am


Title: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 05:49:46 am
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

This puts a name to what I have been struggling to identify.  An Epistemic Crisis.  This article is quite depressing and outlines a path to the final cracking of the liberty bell.  [metaphor]  I have predicted violence, and unfortunately this doesn't dispel my concerns.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 03, 2017, 06:17:42 am
This puts a name to what I have been struggling to identify.  An Epistemic Crisis.  This article is quite depressing and outlines a path to the final cracking of the liberty bell.  [metaphor]  I have predicted violence, and unfortunately this doesn't dispel my concerns.
The article was insightful when it pointed out that the bias in mainstream media towards left wing views led to the breakdown in trust of established authorities but instead of establishing new reliable authorities the extreme right wing media descended into anarchy.  We need to get back to time when reasonable people can agree to disagree on mainstream media - i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier" - one can question immigration without being called a "racist".
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 07:08:41 am
i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier" - one can question immigration without being called a "racist".

Maybe the first step is to re-establish demarcated lines of who-is-who.  Since we can't even agree on the terms rightist and leftist on here, there isn't much hope for a larger agreement.

If a random leftist calls you a racist for saying immigration levels are too high, that means zilch.  It shouldn't be so hard to come up with a definition of principles, so that centrists can start reaffirming themselves.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2017, 07:15:29 am
The article was insightful when it pointed out that...


The US is experiencing a deep epistemic breach, a split not just in what we value or want, but in who we trust, how we come to know things, and what we believe we know — what we believe exists, is true, has happened and is happening.

The primary source of this breach, to make a long story short, is the US conservative movement’s rejection of the mainstream institutions devoted to gathering and disseminating knowledge (journalism, science, the academy) — the ones society has appointed as referees in matters of factual dispute.
"
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2017, 07:20:50 am
We need to get back to time when reasonable people can agree to disagree on mainstream media - i.e. someone can question climate change policy without being called a "denier"

weren't you labeled a denier on MLW because you refused to accept that anthropogenic sourced CO2 is the principal causal tie to global warming/climate change... that you refused to provide your interpreted alternative (to anthropogenic sourced CO2) principal causal tie?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest4 on November 03, 2017, 07:41:02 am
Yeah, it seems a problem without a solution.   No doubt the frequency of "trusted institutions" being wrong has contributed to this, whether its science claiming first one thing then another, corporations allowed to put profits ahead of people, politicians saying anything to get elected, banks bailed out while people lose their homes and people with money and power able to avoid consequences of illegal and anti-social actions.  There are studies that demonstrate a real difference in the way "left" and "right"  people look at the world, and it does make some sense why the right tend to be more devastated by broken trust and more likely to cling to their "tribal" truth and reject "outsider" claims.   It"s difficult to have dialogue with someone who's response tends to be denial followed by blame and without regard to evidence.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on November 03, 2017, 10:34:52 am
weren't you labeled a denier on MLW because you refused to accept that anthropogenic sourced CO2 is the principal causal tie to global warming/climate change... that you refused to provide your interpreted alternative (to anthropogenic sourced CO2) principal causal tie?
Sounds familiar. I asked for an alternative to tax records when determining who would be affected by tax changes because Tim didn't think CRA's books were good enough. He still hasn't provided that alternative.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 03, 2017, 11:29:28 am
The article was insightful when it pointed out that the bias in mainstream media towards left wing views led to the breakdown in trust of established authorities but instead of establishing new reliable authorities the extreme right wing media descended into anarchy. 

Extreme right wing? I would say they established a network (FOX) which was even more biased than the mainstream media, only to the right. you can't call FOX extreme right but it's certainly enormously biased and influential. Americans who use FOX as their principle source of information get an entirely different understanding of what is going on in politics. Not a clearer understanding, but one that is completely without nuance. This helps explain Donald Trump's continued support among his 'base'. It's because his base mostly just watches FOX. And according to FOX he's doing a great job.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 03, 2017, 11:55:57 am
Sounds familiar. I asked for an alternative to tax records when determining who would be affected by tax changes because Tim didn't think CRA's books were good enough. He still hasn't provided that alternative.
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I explained MANY times why the CRA records do not provide the information necessary to draw the conclusion you would like. This statement is true even if there are no alternatives. That is the trouble with lefty ideologues like you. You seem to think that it is acceptable to use garbage data just because there is nothing else. Sorry, good science does not work that way. If there is no good data there  is no good data and you have to accept that. Using crap data because there is "nothing else" is nothing but an excuse for self-deception.

Same goes for the CO2 question: climate computer models are garbage and tell us nothing useful. Any conclusions drawn from climate model outputs are no better than astrological horoscopes. This is true even if there are no alternatives to climate computer models. It is sad that so many people are so ignorant of basic scientific principles.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2017, 01:17:03 pm
Same goes for the CO2 question: climate computer models are garbage and tell us nothing useful. Any conclusions drawn from climate model outputs are no better than astrological horoscopes. This is true even if there are no alternatives to climate computer models. It is sad that so many people are so ignorant of basic scientific principles.

you're the poster-boy for the righty/conservative epistemic 'crisis'!

as is your way, you shift away from the focal point made concerning GW/AGW... you shift to models - of course you do! In any case, your epistemic-self has been shown many times that there are an assortment of models that have performed well. You simply choose to continue to make your all-encompassing broad based statements that show, as you say, 'you're ignorant of basic scientific/modeling principles' - Sad!
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 03, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
In any case, your epistemic-self has been shown many times that there are an assortment of models that have performed well.
ROFTL. Over the past 15 years the models have failed to predict the future over and over. To compensate for this the various activist/scientists choose to "adjust" the data until it fits the model and then claims the models "worked". Such practices don't even deserve to be called science but it is good enough to fool people driven entirely by ideology rather than science.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 03, 2017, 04:37:08 pm
ROFTL. Over the past 15 years the models have failed to predict the future over and over. To compensate for this the various activist/scientists choose to "adjust" the data until it fits the model and then claims the models "worked". Such practices don't even deserve to be called science but it is good enough to fool people driven entirely by ideology rather than science.

How about that ~800,000 sq.km. of missing ice in the Arctic Ocean and the formation of surface ice in the Antarctic due to increased precipitation due to increasing temperatures of both air and sea water?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 04:59:27 pm
As with most threads where I point out 'the divide', it mostly descends into a mud fight.

The interesting part is Argus putting FOX on the dot for exacerbating the divide.  I have to say that they were only a half-step in that direction.  They are still NOT liars, just extremely biased.  So the generation that came after went farther, of course.

They even have people criticizing Trump on FOX.  So they're the end of the last generation, not the beginning of the new one.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 03, 2017, 05:09:02 pm
As with most threads where I point out 'the divide', it mostly descends into a mud fight.
The interesting thing in my initial post I agreed with the op and your sentiment and talked about the need to find a middle ground. I was attacked by people who are unable to take off the blinders created by their ideology.

The climate debate is a good example in the sense that climate alarmists are allowed to get away with saying ridiculous lies/half truths/exaggerations/conspiracies and the main stream media laps up because the people lying are "righteous" in their eyes. Yet when the same types of lies/half truths/exaggeration/conspiracies are peddled by Brietbart and main stream media thinks it is a big problem because the don't like the politics of liars. This hypocrisy needs to be addressed before there can be any meeting in the middle.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 03, 2017, 06:47:35 pm
If Trump is truthfully shown to have colluded with Russia and broke the law, how much does it really matter if Americans believe the evidence or not?  If Trump is force to resign while under threat of impeachment just like Nixon did, then Mike Pence will just pardon Trump, just like Ford pardoned Nixon.  The game is rigged so none of the players can lose.

Reagan, a republican, was elected just 1 term after the GOP imploded because of Nixon, and Reagan became a beloved POTUS by many. Oh how short-term voter memories are.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 06:49:53 pm
The interesting thing in my initial post I agreed with the op and your sentiment and talked about the need to find a middle ground. I was attacked by people who are unable to take off the blinders created by their ideology.

I guess so.  I remember you as believing in AGM but not the economics.  The tax thing... and CRA... no idea and not interested.

Quote
The climate debate is a good example in the sense that climate alarmists are allowed to get away with saying ridiculous lies/half truths/exaggerations/conspiracies and the main stream media laps up because the people lying are "righteous" in their eyes. Yet when the same types of lies/half truths/exaggeration/conspiracies are peddled by Brietbart and main stream media thinks it is a big problem because the don't like the politics of liars. This hypocrisy needs to be addressed before there can be any meeting in the middle.

Like I say, find a way to define principled engagement and those of us who get it will join in.  We will also spend more time explaining to people who agree with us politically why they need to leave behind their own biases. 

On my facebook pages, I am always pointing out climate alarmism, liberal errors... more so than conservative equivalent errors mostly because I don't know any stupid conservatives.  The ones I know are either John Tory red, or libertarian hipsters.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 03, 2017, 06:50:59 pm
If Trump is truthfully shown to have colluded with Russia and broke the law, how much does it really matter if Americans believe the evidence or not?  If Trump is force to resign while under threat of impeachment just like Nixon did, then Mike Pence will just pardon Trump, just like Ford pardoned Nixon.  The game is rigged so none of the players can lose.

Reagan, a republican, was elected just 1 term after the GOP imploded because of Nixon, and Reagan became a beloved POTUS by many. Oh how short-term voter memories are.

The point, I think, is that institutions bend with the public will.  If there's no will to dump Trump then the institutions will have failed and all that will remain is a war of will and power.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 03, 2017, 07:28:43 pm
The interesting thing in my initial post I agreed with the op and your sentiment and talked about the need to find a middle ground. I was attacked by people who are unable to take off the blinders created by their ideology.

The climate debate is a good example in the sense that climate alarmists are allowed to get away with saying ridiculous lies/half truths/exaggerations/conspiracies and the main stream media laps up because the people lying are "righteous" in their eyes. Yet when the same types of lies/half truths/exaggeration/conspiracies are peddled by Brietbart and main stream media thinks it is a big problem because the don't like the politics of liars. This hypocrisy needs to be addressed before there can be any meeting in the middle.
Conflating Breitbart reportage to that of actual science? Now that's a stretch. 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2017, 01:07:05 am
ROFTL. Over the past 15 years the models have failed to predict the future over and over. To compensate for this the various activist/scientists choose to "adjust" the data until it fits the model and then claims the models "worked". Such practices don't even deserve to be called science but it is good enough to fool people driven entirely by ideology rather than science.

you really need to add the Trumpian 'believe me' after the BS you spew... as you've been shown previously on MLW. In any case, your deflect/distraction to models won't stand as I'll repeat the reply I made to your whining over the denier label - please feel free to actually respond this time... don't hesitate to add your epistemic best alternative, hey!
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(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi63.tinypic.com%2F16p88w.jpg&hash=1033cdb21f019a3d37a4b6f5ff92839e520c30cd)
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2017, 01:10:38 am
The interesting thing in my initial post I agreed with the op and your sentiment and talked about the need to find a middle ground. I was attacked by people who are unable to take off the blinders created by their ideology.

were you attacked snowflake?  ;D
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2017, 01:21:26 am
The climate debate is a good example in the sense that climate alarmists are allowed to get away with saying ridiculous lies/half truths/exaggerations/conspiracies and the main stream media laps up because the people lying are "righteous" in their eyes.

please sir, your alternative facts will not stand... nor will your "righteous" posturing against anything you presume to infringe upon or erode the sanctity of the BigOil/fossil-fuel status-quo.

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_md0z8hzOm51qc0cxpo1_500.gif&hash=af87a6915c1e8518e59725d440dac08f26e33633)

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: kimmy on November 05, 2017, 08:54:34 pm
I think for me it was the PizzaGate thing that put it over the top. I understand that there are people with extreme beliefs, but the PizzaGate idea was so disconnected from reality that only somebody with extreme mental problems could buy in to such an absurd story.  We would have to be talking about people suffering from extreme psychotic episodes, deeply delusional people with no connection to reality, people suffering from total dementia, severe and untreated schizophrenia, perhaps people suffering from severe after-effects from repeated head injuries, perhaps severe mental retardation, that sort of thing.  Mental hospital inmates, Alex Jones listeners, the mentally incompetent elderly, Charles Anthony, and that sort of thing.

 -k
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 05, 2017, 09:00:48 pm
I just saw the list of incorrect rumours about this shooting.  Now it seems there's an industry of people who spread known false rumours during these events, I assume for a laugh.

This is what Neil Postman meant by "Amusing Ourselves to Death".  Using all information for mindless entertainment.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: kimmy on November 05, 2017, 09:13:43 pm
I just saw the list of incorrect rumours about this shooting.  Now it seems there's an industry of people who spread known false rumours during these events, I assume for a laugh.

This is what Neil Postman meant by "Amusing Ourselves to Death".  Using all information for mindless entertainment.

It's not being done "just for laughs".  It's being done to shape opinions and reinforce the prejudices of people who are already inclined to listen. They say "a lie can run around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes" or something like that.

Most of the people who hear this stuff spreading through their favorite echo chamber are going to shake their fist and say "I knew it was those damned Antifas (or Muslims)!"  When more is known about the guy who did it, these guys will either just not hear it at all, or they'll choose not to believe it.

 -k
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 05, 2017, 09:23:40 pm
It's not being done "just for laughs".  It's being done to shape opinions and reinforce the prejudices of people who are already inclined to listen. They say "a lie can run around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes" or something like that.

Some of it is that, but some of it is trolling and joking.  Like there's one where they put out the name of the real shooter as 'Sam Hyde' every time to see if it gets picked up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5052625/Vicente-Gonzalez-Texas-shooter-4chan-hoax-meme-Sam-Hyde.html

 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 05, 2017, 11:04:38 pm
I think for me it was the PizzaGate thing that put it over the top. I understand that there are people with extreme beliefs, but the PizzaGate idea was so disconnected from reality that only somebody with extreme mental problems could buy in to such an absurd story.
I reached that  point in 2003 or so after debating with 9/11 truthers. People with views detached from reality are nothing new. The main difference is the internet and social media is allowing the unhinged to collaborate and we see PizzaGate, ISIS, anti-vaxxers et. al became phenomena with real world implications.

I have odd take on these problems because I spent a lot of time reading actual scientific papers and trying to make sense of climate debate without depending on authorities telling me what I should believe. I came to the conclusion that, in some cases, the establishment scientists were engaging in grossly deceptive tactics to cover up errors that might not change the ultimate conclusions but really damaged their credibility in my eyes. This has left me with no one to trust on this file and has led me to the nihilistic view that we have to assume we know nothing about the future climate. This damage could be repaired if the "establishment" started by admitting their failings instead of endlessly doubling down on the insulting rhetoric which only makes the problem worse. 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 06, 2017, 12:22:12 am
I reached that  point in 2003 or so after debating with 9/11 truthers. People with views detached from reality are nothing new. The main difference is the internet and social media is allowing the unhinged to collaborate and we see PizzaGate, ISIS, anti-vaxxers et. al became phenomena with real world implications.

I have odd take on these problems because I spent a lot of time reading actual scientific papers and trying to make sense of climate debate without depending on authorities telling me what I should believe. I came to the conclusion that, in some cases, the establishment scientists were engaging in grossly deceptive tactics to cover up errors that might not change the ultimate conclusions but really damaged their credibility in my eyes. This has left me with no one to trust on this file and has led me to the nihilistic view that we have to assume we know nothing about the future climate. This damage could be repaired if the "establishment" started by admitting their failings instead of endlessly doubling down on the insulting rhetoric which only makes the problem worse.

Even George Carlin knows we are **** up the earth, but that it has/will survive long before/after we destroy our own environment and are gone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO54qF9e2M8
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 06, 2017, 05:50:10 am
... the establishment scientists were engaging in grossly deceptive tactics to cover up errors that might not change the ultimate conclusions but really damaged their credibility in my eyes. 

I have a dim memory of us spending a lot of time over this on MLW.  I think the failure, if there was one, was a failure of ego rather than one of fact as you point out here.  As such, it was to my mind a failure of communication and politics (as in, the necessary politics that governs scientists engaging with the public) but not one of epistemology. 

Of course, scientists behaving as this one did led directly to the current situation.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 06, 2017, 07:13:30 am
As such, it was to my mind a failure of communication and politics (as in, the necessary politics that governs scientists engaging with the public) but not one of epistemology.

the predictability surrounding CPE member 'TimG' is unmatched! Of course, his raving fervour & denial over his favourite GW/AGW hobby-horse is not one of epistemology... but the guy never misses an opportunity to flog his agenda. As I did several times on MLW, I chased this miscreant to 'name names'; to suggest why, even if one accepted there were a small smattering of illegitimate or questionable actors, how did that give him the liberty, the latitude, to **** on the entirety of accepted AND prevailing science performed by thousands of world-wide scientists, representing hundreds upon hundreds of scientific organizations, groups, bodies, academic entities, etc.. Of course, he refused to respond - crickets! The guys conspiratorial chops run strong, run deep! 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 06, 2017, 07:17:08 am
I think the failure, if there was one, was a failure of ego rather than one of fact as you point out here.
Whatever the reason for the failure it does not change the fact that the failure occurred over and over and the failure was widespread (with a number institutions defending junk science when they should have admitted the errors and moved on). I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect me to blindly trust the scientists/institutions operating in this field nor do appeals to 'trust the science' have merit because the issue is the scientific method is not being followed by these people because of their "egos" so how can I "trust it"?.
What this means is I have sympathy for people who distrust the elites even if I think they are grossly mistaken on various unrelated issues. When trust is lost it is very difficult to get back.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 06, 2017, 07:29:24 am
Whatever the reason for the failure it does not change the fact that the failure occurred over and over and the failure was widespread (with a number institutions defending junk science when they should have admitted the errors and moved on). I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect me to blindly trust the scientists/institutions operating in this field nor do appeals to 'trust the science' have merit because the issue is the scientific method is not being followed by these people because of their "egos" so how can I "trust it"?.
What this means is I have sympathy for people who distrust the elites even if I think they are grossly mistaken on various unrelated issues. When trust is lost it is very difficult to get back.

again... your denier agenda is not one of epistemology!
the predictability surrounding CPE member 'TimG' is unmatched! Of course, his raving fervour & denial over his favourite GW/AGW hobby-horse is not one of epistemology... but the guy never misses an opportunity to flog his agenda. As I did several times on MLW, I chased this miscreant to 'name names'; to suggest why, even if one accepted there were a small smattering of illegitimate or questionable actors, how did that give him the liberty, the latitude, to **** on the entirety of accepted AND prevailing science performed by thousands of world-wide scientists, representing hundreds upon hundreds of scientific organizations, groups, bodies, academic entities, etc.. Of course, he refused to respond - crickets! The guys conspiratorial chops run strong, run deep!
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 08:42:35 am
But you can't expect someone to "blindly trust" something they don't want to understand.  :D
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 09:29:44 am
But you can't expect someone to "blindly trust" something they don't want to understand.
Yes. It  is a common problem among ideological driven AGW zealots is they do not want to hear information that contradicts what they want to believe so they simply assume that anyone who fails to parrot the alarmist narrative must "not want to understand".

The typical AGW zealot cannot understand that  that someone can choose to do research and learn about what the science actually says instead of blindly trusting whatever pundit on the news is pretending to be a scientists.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 09:35:56 am
What information are you talking about, zealot?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 09:43:05 am
What information are you talking about, zealot?
You are the zealot who made the snarky comment implying that lack of understanding was the reason for not trusting the so called authorities. Which is a rather silly comment to make since you simply do not have the knowledge to know whether anything a climate skeptic says is reasonable. You simply blindly trust people that tell you what you want to hear. What makes you a zealot is you lack any awareness of the limits of your knowledge while you point the figure at others.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 10:04:48 am
So you don't have any credible information then?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 10:39:41 am
So you don't have any credible information then?
Credible because the source shows a dedication to understanding the science? Or "credible" based on the AGW zealot definition which is basically "anything that agrees with me is credible and anything that disagrees is not credible"?

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 11:10:00 am
I can't dismiss your sources until you provide them. But I guess it saves us time if you just go on and on about how everybody has their mind made up but you, and how your secret sources are the most reliable of all.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 11:32:57 am
I can't dismiss your sources until you provide them. But I guess it saves us time if you just go on and on about how everybody has their mind made up but you, and how your secret sources are the most reliable of all.
Spare me the crocodile tears. You have no interest in arguments that cast doubt on the AGW alarmist meme (if you actually had an open mind you would not have assumed that people who disagree must not understand). There is also no point in rehashing them here.

The point in this thread is how scientists have allowed their institutions to be hijacked by political activitists and have thereby destroyed the credibility of the scientific institutions. Restoring that credibility requires scientists to stop taking sides in political debates.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 01:22:58 pm
I can't dismiss your sources until you provide them. But I guess it saves us time if you just go on and on about how everybody has their mind made up but you, and how your secret sources are the most reliable of all.

And it's kind of hard to dismiss sources that provide satellite pics. of hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of ice gone out of the arctic and with a Carnival Cruise ship scooting through apace.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 02:02:57 pm
And it's kind of hard to dismiss sources that provide satellite pics. of hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of ice gone out of the arctic and with a Carnival Cruise ship scooting through apace.
A typical example of the logic free jingoism that pervades the debate. All of those thing can be true but that does not mean that rapid reductions in CO2 emissions is the only or best policy option. Deliberately conflating scientific facts with policy is why so many scientists have destroyed their credibility.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 02:10:27 pm
A typical example of the logic free jingoism that pervades the debate. All of those thing can be true but that does not mean that rapid reductions in CO2 emissions is the only or best policy option. Deliberately conflating scientific facts with policy is why so many scientists have destroyed the credibility.

Reducing GHG may not be the only/best policy but since they are what are causing the abnormality's it seems the most obvious.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 02:30:12 pm
Reducing GHG may not be the only/best policy but since they are what are causing the abnormality's it seems the most obvious.
Being the obvious solution does not make it the right solution. The current policy obsession with CO2 reduction targets will only guarantee that nothing useful happens. The correct policy would instead of real changes in technology that can make a difference instead of meaningless virtue signaling gestures.

For example, governments could require that all passenger cars and SUV be hybrids. The technology exists and is reliable and would reduce emissions by a lot. Especially in cities. But instead of the rational solutions that offer progress we get politicians promising to outlaw the ICE which gets votes today but will have to be reversed by future politicians when people are forced to accept that EVs cannot the transportation needs of most people.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 02:46:47 pm
Being the obvious solution does not make it the right solution. The current policy obsession with CO2 reduction targets will only guarantee that nothing useful happens. The correct policy would instead of real changes in technology that can make a difference instead of meaningless virtue signaling gestures.

For example, governments could require that all passenger cars and SUV be hybrids. The technology exists and is reliable and would reduce emissions by a lot. Especially in cities. But instead of the rational solutions that offer progress we get politicians promising to outlaw the ICE which gets votes today but will have to be reversed by future politicians when people are forced to accept that EVs cannot the transportation needs of most people.

Seems fairly straightforward: when too much unsequestered CO2 is causing problems for the planet, you attempt to reverse that process. EV's are making great strides and I suspect are the inevitable replacement for the ICE. Long ranges trucking may take a little longer but short haul urban trucking is already making moves. Think also of the maintenance cost savings. Easier to take care of 20 moving parts than 2,000 don't ya think?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 02:53:10 pm
Being the obvious solution does not make it the right solution. The current policy obsession with CO2 reduction targets will only guarantee that nothing useful happens. The correct policy would instead of real changes in technology that can make a difference instead of meaningless virtue signaling gestures.

For example, governments could require that all passenger cars and SUV be hybrids. The technology exists and is reliable and would reduce emissions by a lot. Especially in cities. But instead of the rational solutions that offer progress we get politicians promising to outlaw the ICE which gets votes today but will have to be reversed by future politicians when people are forced to accept that EVs cannot the transportation needs of most people.
I sense a transition from questioning the science that contends climate change exists, to questioning the science that contends climate change is caused by CO2, to questioning the science that contends reducing our CO2 emissions will make a difference, to questioning the science that contends that EVs are a realistic alternative. Funny how all those questions seem to be in the interest of the oil industry.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 02:58:45 pm
I sense a transition from questioning the science that contends climate change exists, to questioning the science that contends climate change is caused by CO2, to questioning the science that contends reducing our CO2 emissions will make a difference, to questioning the science that contends that EVs are a realistic alternative. Funny how all those questions seem to be in the interest of the oil industry.
The are multiple inter-related issues. The unjustified alarmism and the endless attempts to blame every bad thing that occurs on "climate change" are problems no matter what the policy choices.

And your preferred policy options seem to benefit government bureaucrats and rent seekers looking to get rich off government regulations. Your support for those policies obviously means you are benefiting financially from them and you could not possibly care about what is best for society as a whole. 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 03:08:49 pm
The are multiple inter-related issues. The unjustified alarmism and the endless attempts to blame every bad thing that occurs on "climate change" are problems no matter what the policy choices.

And your preferred policy options seem to benefit government bureaucrats and rent seekers looking to get rich off government regulations. Your support for those policies obviously means you are benefiting financially from them and you could not possibly care about what is best for society as a whole.

I don't see anybody blaming "every bad thing that occurs" on AGW, just the bad things that are caused by AGW. And why do you suggest that if anyone was smart enough to see the writing on the wall and invest in say Tesla, that that somehow undercuts their reasoning?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 03:34:36 pm
And your preferred policy options seem to benefit government bureaucrats and rent seekers looking to get rich off government regulations. Your support for those policies obviously means you are benefiting financially from them and you could not possibly care about what is best for society as a whole.
Are you pretending I expressed my preferred policy options so that you wouldn't have to talk about where you got your information from?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 09, 2017, 04:04:55 pm
Another boring bun fight about climate science and global warming.  ::)

What do you guys expect to solve with this? Neither side believes the others, and wouldn't if they walked on water.

For my part I think Trump is a moron on the issue. And so is Trudeau.
I think Trudeau is also a moron for his pro-choice stance, and those people who are protesting outside abortion clinics are worse.
I think people who want unisex bathroom and men who call themselves women in womens changing rooms are morons - as are Republicans who write 'bathroom bills'.
I think people who want to ban guns are fools, though not as much as those idiots who want everyone to be allowed to own automatic weapons and carry guns around with them everywhere they go.
I think Libertarians and Socialists are unrealistic and often crazy.
I think Americans who want no government health care are idiots, and Canadians who want no private health care are fools.

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 04:14:12 pm
Another boring bun fight about climate science and global warming.  ::)

What do you guys expect to solve with this? Neither side believes the others, and wouldn't if they walked on water.

For my part I think Trump is a moron on the issue. And so is Trudeau.
I think Trudeau is also a moron for his pro-choice stance, and those people who are protesting outside abortion clinics are worse.
I think people who want unisex bathroom and men who call themselves women in womens changing rooms are morons - as are Republicans who write 'bathroom bills'.
I think people who want to ban guns are fools, though not as much as those idiots who want everyone to be allowed to own automatic weapons and carry guns around with them everywhere they go.
I think Libertarians and Socialists are unrealistic and often crazy.
I think Americans who want no government health care are idiots, and Canadians who want no private health care are fools.

Not nearly as boring as the fight over immigration. Mostly because climate science and GW pose actual threats.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on November 09, 2017, 05:43:49 pm
Yes. It  is a common problem among ideological driven AGW zealots is they do not want to hear information that contradicts what they want to believe
There is no information that contradicts AGW.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2017, 06:29:10 pm
But we don't want to hear this alleged information, even if we ask for it. It's confusing.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on November 09, 2017, 06:30:00 pm
But we don't want to hear this alleged information, even if we ask for it. It's confusing.
That's because there is no information that contradicts AGW.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 09, 2017, 06:33:09 pm
There is no information that contradicts AGW.

There is no evidence any of the preferred methods of dealing with it will have more than 0.0000000000000002% affect over time.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on November 09, 2017, 06:34:08 pm
Yes there is.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 08:05:55 pm
There is no evidence any of the preferred methods of dealing with it will have more than 0.0000000000000002% affect over time.

Well apparently the only country that agrees with you is the US. (or at least according to the US under the direction of your buddy Trump) China for instance is kicking in $361 billion to get away from fossil fuels and away into renewables, and here's a look into why. I think your finger got stuck on the 0 key.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-energy-renewables/china-to-plow-361-billion-into-renewable-fuel-by-2020-idUSKBN14P06P
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 09, 2017, 08:22:34 pm
maaaan... this thread...

I think I posted about AGW a few pages back and now look at it...
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on November 09, 2017, 09:21:28 pm
Yes there is.
ROTFL. Every CO2 reduction policy tried so far has been an abject failure. The only reductions that have occurred have been in spite of - not because of the policies (e.g. fracking reducing the cost of natural gas and making it an economic alternative to coal). Biofuels are likely net contributors. Carbon trading is invariably a scam that encourages companies in the developing world to create emissions they don't have a business need for and then be paid to reduce them. The role out of EVs will require massive increases to the electrical supply which is not going to come from renewables.

The entire CO2 reduction industry driven by the need to massaging the egos of people who want to believe that "something is being done" but don't really care about CO2.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 09, 2017, 09:31:59 pm
Every CO2 reduction policy tried so far has been an abject failure.

Demonstrably false.

UK carbon emissions drop to lowest level since 19th century, study finds
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/06/uk-carbon-emissions-drop-to-lowest-level-since-19th-century-study-finds
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 09, 2017, 09:44:16 pm
ROTFL. Every CO2 reduction policy tried so far has been an abject failure. The only reductions that have occurred have been in spite of - not because of the policies (e.g. fracking reducing the cost of natural gas and making it an economic alternative to coal). Biofuels are likely net contributors. Carbon trading is invariably a scam that encourages companies in the developing world to create emissions they don't have a business need for and then be paid to reduce them. The role out of EVs will require massive increases to the electrical supply which is not going to come from renewables.

The entire CO2 reduction industry driven by the need to massaging the egos of people who want to believe that "something is being done" but don't really care about CO2.
Ah, no. Fracking has been done for oil as long as it has been for gas. Coal is disappearing because not only is is a huge source of CO2, but it is also a pollutant that will kill you much quicker. We have a pretty successful carbon tax program here in BC. Revenue neutral and it has reduced CO2 production. Can't keep your head in the "oil sand" forever.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on November 10, 2017, 10:33:09 am
Demonstrably false.

UK carbon emissions drop to lowest level since 19th century, study finds
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/06/uk-carbon-emissions-drop-to-lowest-level-since-19th-century-study-finds
This is the problem, isn't it? You can't have a discussion with people who completely disregard reality.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 10, 2017, 11:19:00 am
We have a pretty successful carbon tax program here in BC. Revenue neutral and it has reduced CO2 production. Can't keep your head in the "oil sand" forever.

It is most certainly NOT revenue neutral. And what has most likely reduced CO2 production is the impossibility of starting up any new natural resource project due to red tape and bureaucracy.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 10, 2017, 11:43:58 am
It is most certainly NOT revenue neutral. And what has most likely reduced CO2 production is the impossibility of starting up any new natural resource project due to red tape and bureaucracy.

*ahem, cough cough*

British Columbia's Revenue-Neutral Carbon Tax --- https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax)

Quote
From 2007 to 2014, the province has seen a 5.5% decrease in emissions, despite an 8.1% increase in population. And the province’s real GDP is up by 12.4% over the same period.

Between 2008/09 and 2015/16, the carbon tax generated about $7.3 billion and provided offsetting tax reductions of about $8.9 billion, bringing an estimated net benefit to B.C. taxpayers of $1.6 billion. These revenues and reductions are reported yearly in the Revenue Neutral Carbon Tax Plans and Reports.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 01:31:03 pm
*ahem, cough cough*

British Columbia's Revenue-Neutral Carbon Tax --- https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax)

Thanks for looking that one up. Expect some argus ire in response.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 10, 2017, 03:29:05 pm
*ahem, cough cough*

British Columbia's Revenue-Neutral Carbon Tax --- https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/climate-change/planning-and-action/carbon-tax)

Back in 2008/09, when the province first introduced the carbon tax, the B.C. government promised revenue neutrality. And initially it was. However, just five years later, as the carbon-tax revenue increased, the government no longer provided new tax cuts that sufficiently offset the carbon tax’s revenue. In other words, B.C.’s carbon tax ceased being revenue neutral in 2013/14.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/how-b-c-s-formerly-revenue-neutral-carbon-tax-turned-into-another-government-cash-grab

In its first budget released earlier this week, Premier John Horgan’s NDP government raised the carbon tax rate by 66 per cent over the next four years and rejected revenue neutrality, undermining the case for an economically efficient carbon tax.
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/op-ed/opinion-b-c-budget-abandons-any-hope-for-efficient-carbon-tax
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 03:48:52 pm
Back in 2008/09, when the province first introduced the carbon tax, the B.C. government promised revenue neutrality. And initially it was. However, just five years later, as the carbon-tax revenue increased, the government no longer provided new tax cuts that sufficiently offset the carbon tax’s revenue. In other words, B.C.’s carbon tax ceased being revenue neutral in 2013/14.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/how-b-c-s-formerly-revenue-neutral-carbon-tax-turned-into-another-government-cash-grab

In its first budget released earlier this week, Premier John Horgan’s NDP government raised the carbon tax rate by 66 per cent over the next four years and rejected revenue neutrality, undermining the case for an economically efficient carbon tax.
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/op-ed/opinion-b-c-budget-abandons-any-hope-for-efficient-carbon-tax

What the numbers do show is that a carbon tax can be revenue neutral and at the same time reducing CO2. It's up to governments to adjust the #'s accordingly to make it effective. Dumping the whole concept because the 3'S didn't work they way you wanted for a period is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: waldo on November 10, 2017, 04:53:30 pm
Back in 2008/09, when the province first introduced the carbon tax, the B.C. government promised revenue neutrality. And initially it was. However, just five years later, as the carbon-tax revenue increased, the government no longer provided new tax cuts that sufficiently offset the carbon tax’s revenue. In other words, B.C.’s carbon tax ceased being revenue neutral in 2013/14.

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/how-b-c-s-formerly-revenue-neutral-carbon-tax-turned-into-another-government-cash-grab

I'm shocked such a claim comes from the (Koch Brothers funded) Fraser Institute... shocked I tells ya!

Feb, 2017: B.C. Finance Ministry disputes claims from Fraser Institute on carbon tax --- https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/fraser-institute-challenges-revenue-neutral-claim-of-bcs-carbon-tax/article34047893 (https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/fraser-institute-challenges-revenue-neutral-claim-of-bcs-carbon-tax/article34047893)

Quote
British Columbia's Finance Ministry is disputing claims from a Fraser Institute report that says the province's carbon tax is no longer revenue neutral.

A statement from the Finance Ministry says tax cuts exceeded revenue from the carbon tax by an estimated $500-million last year. The ministry says small and targeted tax measures that have been implemented since 2012 – the last time the carbon tax increased – have helped keep it revenue neutral.

The government says it has returned more than $1.6-billion in tax cuts to employers, individuals and families since the carbon tax was established in 2008.

"We look at the entire tax system every year as part of the budget process, and it's reasonable that deciding to continue providing a tax cut is as legitimate a tax measure to include as an entirely new tax reduction," the ministry says.

as for the new NDP government's (month or so ago) recent budget, that's future case - don't let that get in the way of your focused 2008-2016 claim, hey!
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 10, 2017, 06:20:19 pm
I'm shocked such a claim comes from the (Koch Brothers funded) Fraser Institute... shocked I tells ya!

The Koch brothers don't fund the Fraser Institute. They've donated money but not at tenth as much as, say, Peter Munk. So?

Quote
Feb, 2017: B.C. Finance Ministry disputes claims from Fraser Institute on carbon tax -

Yeah, yeah, and the Ontario government says it's balanced its budget.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 07:34:56 pm
The Koch brothers don't fund the Fraser Institute. They've donated money but not at tenth as much as, say, Peter Munk. So?

Yeah, yeah, and the Ontario government says it's balanced its budget.

And the difference between funding and donating money is what exactly?
Thr Fraser Institute claims to be a "charitable foundation" who takes foreign money and uses it to influence support for the Tories in this country. At least the FI should have it's "charitable" designation taken away and let them deal with CRA.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/04/26/koch-brothers-fraser-institute_n_1456223.html
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 08:03:20 am
Can we get back on topic ?  My thread was shoplifted for another climate discussion.   :-\
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 23, 2018, 03:59:31 pm
Can we get back on topic ?  My thread was shoplifted for another climate discussion.   :-\

I've been looking for a thread to drop this into. I think it's relevant. It's about Denmark. The author basically describes Denmark's society and why it works so well and why Danes are so happy, and ascribes it mostly to a sense of trust- in each other, in their institutions, a sense of trust which is largely absent in the US, and not much more present in Canada. He suggests that only a society in which their is a sense of fellowship and trust between one another can people be truly comfortable. And the only place he finds in the US which has a comparable level of social cohesion is Utah, probably because of it's Mormon sense of unity.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-23/you-can-t-have-denmark-without-danes
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2018, 04:42:02 pm
He suggests that only a society in which their is a sense of fellowship and trust between one another can people be truly comfortable. And the only place he finds in the US which has a comparable level of social cohesion is Utah, probably because of it's Mormon sense of unity.
Danes are staunchly anti-immigration. Seems this stance was one of the key elements that allowed them to build a society based on trust.
As the article notes, immigrants don't do well in a society that runs on trust because trust based societies inherently favour those who are already part of the group.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/01/denmark-refugees-immigration-law/431520/
Quote
On Tuesday, the Danish parliament overwhelmingly passed a bill seemingly designed to solidify Denmark’s reputation as Western Europe’s least attractive country for refugees...
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 23, 2018, 06:03:08 pm
Homogeneous societies like Japan are peculiar things.   


Seems like an interesting idea, though.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 23, 2018, 07:07:47 pm
Well, that was an interesting article.   As they point out, there aren't really too many lessons for other countries though.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2018, 08:05:47 pm
Danes are staunchly anti-immigration. Seems this stance was one of the key elements that allowed them to build a society based on trust.
As the article notes, immigrants don't do well in a society that runs on trust because trust based societies inherently favour those who are already part of the group.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/01/denmark-refugees-immigration-law/431520/

Well I am Canadian born and bred, but I am also the product of immigrants, and I have done quite well thank you. But you shouldn't cringe too much because I am the product of white skinned immigrants. I see you and sir argus share the same bias. As MH points out maybe Japan would suit you better since everybody looks pretty much the same there.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 23, 2018, 08:53:03 pm
Well I am Canadian born and bred,

Not all failures are foreigners. We have lots.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 23, 2018, 08:54:36 pm
Well, that was an interesting article.   As they point out, there aren't really too many lessons for other countries though.

I think it does point out the necessity of trust among members of a society for a number of things like generous social safety nets (you have to trust it won't be hugely abused) and that social cohesion is a worthy objective - as much of it as you can get. I think Canada has, unfortunately, lost a great deal of that social trust and social cohesion in the last fifty years. This is one of the reasons people are afraid to let their kids out of the house, for example.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2018, 08:58:21 pm
Not all failures are foreigners. We have lots.

According to tim most are foreigners it seems. Sound familiar?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 23, 2018, 11:03:32 pm
I think Canada has, unfortunately, lost a great deal of that social trust and social cohesion in the last fifty years. This is one of the reasons people are afraid to let their kids out of the house, for example.

Things have gotten far safer in the past 50 years, and the facts show that children have been in far more danger from family, friends, and trusted caregivers than strangers. I agree that trust has been lost out of ignorance.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on February 23, 2018, 11:19:53 pm
According to tim most are foreigners it seems. Sound familiar?
Not even close to what I said but trying to explain the nuance of my argument to you is likely futile.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 23, 2018, 11:38:59 pm
Not even close to what I said but trying to explain the nuance of my argument to you is likely futile.

Let me guide you to the fact my reply wasn't to you. That might be the start of your futility.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 24, 2018, 06:51:00 am
I think it does point out the necessity of trust among members of a society for a number of things like generous social safety nets (you have to trust it won't be hugely abused) and that social cohesion is a worthy objective - as much of it as you can get. I think Canada has, unfortunately, lost a great deal of that social trust and social cohesion in the last fifty years. This is one of the reasons people are afraid to let their kids out of the house, for example.

Many countries are in the same boat.  The reasons are varied, and to my mind many of the *stated* reasons you hear aren't valid.

- Crime isn't higher
- Times aren't tougher
- The future isn't bleak

But you are absolutely right that social trust and cohesion needs to be rebuilt.  As I have been saying - a culture change and conversation change on the scale that we saw in the 1960s is in order.  A generational change could be what pushes it.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 09:00:35 am
A lifelong conservative had the gall to speak truth to power at the CPAC get-together on the weekend. The so-called conservatives at CPAC didn't like it much. She had to be escorted out of the event by multiple security people afraid the Trumpists would attack her.

I wonder if what American needs is a new political party, for conservatives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/25/opinion/im-glad-i-got-booed-at-cpac.html
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 09:05:12 am
Many countries are in the same boat.  The reasons are varied, and to my mind many of the *stated* reasons you hear aren't valid.

- Crime isn't higher
- Times aren't tougher
- The future isn't bleak

I think what Jonathan Haidt pointed out was that crime and tough times aren't the main basis of the sense of anger, that uncontrolled mass migration and it's perceived danger to the culture, values and national identity of the nation is what is worrying people and turning them against the political 'elites'. As for the other elites, you know, the wealthy, the last couple of decades have laid bare just how utterly unconcerned with anyone but their own wealth most of them are.

Quote
But you are absolutely right that social trust and cohesion needs to be rebuilt.  As I have been saying - a culture change and conversation change on the scale that we saw in the 1960s is in order.  A generational change could be what pushes it.

The important change would be an acceptance of diverse viewpoints, which is not something I see much enthusiasm for among the young, especially the young who are subjected to such relentless leftist propaganda through school and college and from most mainstream media outlets. A lot of them don't even support freedom of speech any more, at least, not for speech that challenges their social views.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 26, 2018, 09:33:55 am
The important change would be an acceptance of diverse viewpoints, which is not something I see much enthusiasm for among the young, especially the young who are subjected to such relentless leftist propaganda through school and college and from most mainstream media outlets. A lot of them don't even support freedom of speech any more, at least, not for speech that challenges their social views.

"leftist" is diversity and support of freedom of speech
"rightist" is for exclusivity and demand that their hate speech be supported and listened to
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 09:37:31 am
"leftist" is diversity and support of freedom of speech
"rightist" is for exclusivity and demand that their hate speech be supported and listened to

I don't recall any 'rightest' at any point in time ever even suggesting that hate speech, or for that matter ANY speech be supported or listened to. Perhaps you could find me a cite on that one.

As for 'leftists' believing in diversity and support for freedom of speech - they believe in diverse ethnicities and cultures and colors but not diverse opinions and viewpoints. And those rioting crowds trying to shut down speakers and gatherings are ALWAYS leftists.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 26, 2018, 10:02:28 am
And those rioting crowds trying to shut down speakers and gatherings are ALWAYS leftists.

Yes, all those Trump supporters you mentioned a few posts above were leftists.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: cybercoma on February 26, 2018, 12:52:26 pm
Yes, all those Trump supporters you mentioned a few posts above were leftists.
I guess it was a leftist who murdered a protester with his car to shut her up too. Argus has been drinking the conservative blogosphere Koolaid.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2018, 01:24:44 pm
I guess it was a leftist who murdered a protester with his car to shut her up too. Argus has been drinking the conservative blogosphere Koolaid.

I guess that must make the swastika wearers shouting "no more Jews" in Charlottesville all leftists too.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 03:45:48 pm
Yes, all those Trump supporters you mentioned a few posts above were leftists.

Trump suporters try to bar speakers and close down their events? I hadn't heard that. You have examples?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 03:48:34 pm
I guess that must make the swastika wearers shouting "no more Jews" in Charlottesville all leftists too.

Perhaps you forgot that it was THEIR demo, and it was the determination to shut down that demo - along with incompetent policing - which led to the violence.
Anyway, those people weren't from the right, they were the far right. You think any of them even knew anything about conservative philosophy or beliefs?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: wilber on February 26, 2018, 07:51:27 pm
We may be approaching a point where we find out if the US Constitution is the holy document they make it out to be, or just more words.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2018, 08:25:30 pm
Perhaps you forgot that it was THEIR demo, and it was the determination to shut down that demo - along with incompetent policing - which led to the violence.
Anyway, those people weren't from the right, they were the far right. You think any of them even knew anything about conservative philosophy or beliefs?

They seemed to have a pretty good handle on xenophobia, or downright racism.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2018, 08:29:41 pm
We may be approaching a point where we find out if the US Constitution is the holy document they make it out to be, or just more words.

I can see there being a pretty strong possibility of some modifications to it. especially as more and more companies sever ties with the NRA and if, heaven forbid, they have the next school shooting when the last one is still so vivid in peoples minds.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 26, 2018, 08:34:21 pm
I can see there being a pretty strong possibility of some modifications to it. especially as more and more companies sever ties with the NRA and if, heaven forbid, they have the next school shooting when the last one is still so vivid in peoples minds.

Oh for Gods sakes, if you think a few companies no longer working with the NRA is going to make an iota of difference you really don't understand how things operate in the US. There will be nothing but a token improvement, if that, as long as the Republicans are in control. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how many school shootings there are.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2018, 08:48:58 pm
Oh for Gods sakes, if you think a few companies no longer working with the NRA is going to make an iota of difference you really don't understand how things operate in the US. There will be nothing but a token improvement, if that, as long as the Republicans are in control. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how many school shootings there are.

Oh for god's sake, I think I do know how things operate in the US, I've spent a lot of time there in my day. It's mostly all about the money. The Republican will likely lose control of congress come the mid terms, and folks unbeholden to the NRA for funding, and who want to keep their seats can get down to putting in force at least some restrictions on guns such as background checks, bans on military weapons being sold to civilians, and some age restrictions. And yes it does matter how many school shootings there are. Would you just sit back and shut up if your kid got whacked in math class?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest7 on February 26, 2018, 08:49:37 pm
Oh for Gods sakes, if you think a few companies no longer working with the NRA is going to make an iota of difference you really don't understand how things operate in the US. There will be nothing but a token improvement, if that, as long as the Republicans are in control. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter how many school shootings there are.

I don't know so much.  This thing might have legs.  The Spring Break idea is genius, and I just heard that MEC is probably going to boycott the arms manufacturer's parent company.

It reminds me of the scene in Flight of the Phoenix where James Stewart is trying to get the engine to turn over.  If they can actually get the propeller spinning properly, who knows where it will end.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: wilber on February 26, 2018, 09:37:28 pm
I don't see any constitutional amendments coming from this.  The chances of compromise in today's rampant partisanship probably hasn't been so poor since the civil war.

Changes in gun laws maybe, all of which will be challenged in the courts. With a Republican dominated SCOTUS, I wouldn't bet on their chances.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 27, 2018, 07:27:55 am
I think what Jonathan Haidt pointed out was that crime and tough times aren't the main basis of the sense of anger, that uncontrolled mass migration and it's perceived danger to the culture, values and national identity of the nation is what is worrying people and turning them against the political 'elites'. As for the other elites, you know, the wealthy, the last couple of decades have laid bare just how utterly unconcerned with anyone but their own wealth most of them are.

I don't agree.  Loss of status and loss of economic security are the things that fuel unrest.  Middle America feels that they have gone through this, and they have.  The coasts have been success stories, while the flyover lands have faltered.

Quote
The important change would be an acceptance of diverse viewpoints, which is not something I see much enthusiasm for among the young, especially the young who are subjected to such relentless leftist propaganda through school and college and from most mainstream media outlets. A lot of them don't even support freedom of speech any more, at least, not for speech that challenges their social views.

The young don't have to accept the viewpoints of the old, they can just wait for them to die.  "Leftist propaganda" is a way to make the issue into stupid/naive people vs. wise people.  I often see it on forums when people talk about elections... where people they like lost.

I think that right/left people are equally smart but that they have to indulge dumb arguments from their own people to win power.  It makes more sense to me than saying the same idiots who elected one guy got smart all of a sudden and elected the other.

---

Anyway, my boredom with the left/right dichotomy is reflected in the fascinating quest to divine what are the magical elements that gets such people to work together for the common betterment.  I have done it, in person, at BurningMan and it's very difficult work.  But worthwhile things are difficult.  And often, the people who come later don't understand the work that was done to create that difficult thing and take it for granted.

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 27, 2018, 11:23:26 am
I don't agree.  Loss of status and loss of economic security are the things that fuel unrest.

The unrest roiling Europe right now makes few distinctions between the wealthy and poor nations. It's powerful from Denmark to Italy - where, btw, immigration is the leading issue in the current election. Note that. Italy has a lot of economic problems, yet immigration is the most important issue in the campaign. Support for Trump, as has already been documented didn't come from the poor and downtrodden.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/?utm_term=.66f680c4e6ff


Quote
The young don't have to accept the viewpoints of the old, they can just wait for them to die.

Curious you said this in reply to my stating many of the young don't even support freedom of speech any more. Do you think freedom of speech is something we would be better off growing out of?

Quote
Anyway, my boredom with the left/right dichotomy is reflected in the fascinating quest to divine what are the magical elements that gets such people to work together for the common betterment.

Force. Generally people only compromise when they have to. Why should you surrender some of what you want and accept some stuff you don't want  if you don't have to? Oh, you can be fair-minded, but fair-minded people don't seem to prosper in our political environment.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 27, 2018, 11:26:12 am
Curious you said this in reply to my stating many of the young don't even support freedom of speech any more. Do you think freedom of speech is something we would be better off growing out of?

Freedom of speech does not mean obligation to listen and support.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: TimG on February 27, 2018, 12:14:43 pm
Freedom of speech does not mean obligation to listen and support.
No but it means not supporting actions by governments or mobs to prevent people from speaking.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 27, 2018, 12:51:33 pm

 
Curious you said this in reply to my stating many of the young don't even support freedom of speech any more. Do you think freedom of speech is something we would be better off growing out of?

You don't even have to ask that.

The 'young not wanting freedom of speech' thing... are we going to bring the Laurier incident up again ?  Except that had a young person asking for freedom of speech.

Quote
Force. Generally people only compromise when they have to. Why should you surrender some of what you want and accept some stuff you don't want  if you don't have to? Oh, you can be fair-minded, but fair-minded people don't seem to prosper in our political environment.

Democracy didn't work because people were forced to compromise.  I don't agree.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 27, 2018, 03:07:43 pm
No but it means not supporting actions by governments or mobs to prevent people from speaking.

You mean like CPAC rushing out a speaker because the Trumpites were mobbing her?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 27, 2018, 03:35:22 pm
You mean like CPAC rushing out a speaker because the Trumpites were mobbing her?

They didn't say that. She had finished her thing and they had security around her just in case. There was nothing in the report that said people were mobbing her.
Also, it was THEIR event. He's talking about mobbing people and preventing them from speaking at events which are not being held by the mobs in question.

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 12:10:58 pm
Further to my statement about immigration being responsible for much of the unrest among nativists...

In the Italian election, migration issues have wrestled their way to the forefront, boosting the popularity of the right-wing parties. Anti-immigrant slogans and rhetoric and attacks on migrants are grabbing the headlines.

Italy is not alone, of course. September's German election saw the rise of Alternative for Germany, the rabidly anti-immigrant party that won almost 13 per cent of the vote, depriving chancellor Angela Merkel and her conservative allies of a parliamentary majority. With Italy, and much of the rest of the European Union, obsessed with migration issues, centre-left parties are finding themselves in retreat; the polls say that Italy's ruling Democratic Party has little chance of forming a government.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/italy-lurches-to-the-xenophobic-right-in-election-centred-on-immigration/article38144969/
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 28, 2018, 05:48:10 pm
I don't know if the European comparison is apt, frankly.  They have much worse problems and they haven't exactly had a populist uprising as America did.  This is more about the entire face of politics changing, and I don't see that in Europe but I may be wrong.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 06:10:11 pm
I don't know if the European comparison is apt, frankly.  They have much worse problems and they haven't exactly had a populist uprising as America did.  This is more about the entire face of politics changing, and I don't see that in Europe but I may be wrong.

Politics is changing faster in Europe than here because they have proportionate rep there. Here it takes overwhelming pressure to shift the mainstream parties, but you can certainly see that south of the border. I mean, you have people adamant that they want a wall built to keep out illegals, then you have immigration supporters, even illegal immigration supporters, like the mayor of Oakland, brazenly warning the illegal immigrant community that the federal immigration authorities are about to launch a crackdown so they can hide. We have the same thing in Canada, where local left wing mayors and councils in places like Montreal, London and Toronto have defiantly said they will grant all social welfare benefits to illegal migrants and not report them. This is one of those areas where I side with Trump, and think such local authorities should be hammered with a total loss of all federal money.


Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 28, 2018, 06:16:41 pm
Let's get specific.

Where in Europe is politics changing as fast as it is in America ?
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2018, 06:34:50 pm
We have the same thing in Canada, where local left wing mayors and councils in places like Montreal, London and Toronto have defiantly said they will grant all social welfare benefits to illegal migrants and not report them. This is one of those areas where I side with Trump, and think such local authorities should be hammered with a total loss of all federal money.

It is in the large cities that all immigrants flock, and those cities are left to deal with the situation that the rest of the tsk tskers just rant about. Now those tsk tskers who contribute far less to the economy than the big cities want to steal more from the big cities.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 06:46:06 pm
Let's get specific.

Where in Europe is politics changing as fast as it is in America ?

Seriously, where did you hear much about far right parties in government ten years ago? The National Front got something like 4% of the vote in 2007, and 33% last year.
New far right or anti-immigrant  parties have emerged all across the continent. Most of the ones in places like Italy, Germany and Greece didn't even exist ten years ago. The Danish People's party got 21% of the vote in the last election. Hungary's version got the same. Austria's version just took power. The ADF in Germany went from 0 seats in parliament the previous election to 97 last year. As David Frum said more than a year ago “When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.”

If Canada had a proportional rep system we would most definitely have an anti-immigration party, and that party would most definitely have sufficient support to get seats in parliament.

http://vancouversun.com/opinion/op-ed/opinion-nationalist-anti-immigrant-parties-thrive-in-europe-why-not-in-canada
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 06:48:35 pm
It is in the large cities that all immigrants flock, and those cities are left to deal with the situation that the rest of the tsk tskers just rant about. Now those tsk tskers who contribute far less to the economy than the big cities want to steal more from the big cities.

Those councils have no right to spend taxpayer money on illegal migrants from foreign countries. The situation needs to be remedied by arresting the migrants and deporting them, not by feeding, clothing and sheltering them.

Alternatively, social justice warriors could be required to pay a special tax, and that tax would go to supporting all the third world migrants, including their health care and the education of any children. Of course, that assumes social justice activists even pay taxes, which is a stretch.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2018, 06:51:18 pm
The situation needs to be remedied by arresting the migrants and deporting them

That is a federal responsibility. In the meantime the cities are left to deal with the mess.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on February 28, 2018, 06:52:47 pm
That is a federal responsibility. In the meantime the cities are left to deal with the mess.

You call announcing you're a 'sanctuary city' where illegal migrants are safe and can obtain full social welfare services 'dealing' with it? I call that advertising far and wide "Just come here! We've got free money for you! Come ahead! We won't turn you in! Want a free apartment!? It's here for you! The more the merrier!"

Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 28, 2018, 06:55:51 pm
I don't see any constitutional amendments coming from this.  The chances of compromise in today's rampant partisanship probably hasn't been so poor since the civil war.

Changes in gun laws maybe, all of which will be challenged in the courts. With a Republican dominated SCOTUS, I wouldn't bet on their chances.

Gun control laws are already in place in some states and don’t need changes to the constitution.  It’s political will that is lacking, not the legal ability to make laws. 
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: guest4 on March 01, 2018, 07:45:15 am
American gun worshippers, literally.

Quote
Worshippers clutched rifles and donned crowns made of rounds of bullets, as they exchanged or renewed wedding vows at a church in the US state of Pennsylvania on Wednesday.

Brides wearing white and grooms in dark suits brought dozens of unloaded AR-15s for the commitment ceremony at the World Peace and Unification Sanctuary building in the town of Newfoundland, about 190 kilometers (120 miles) north of Philadelphia.

The church, which has a worldwide following, believes the AR-15 symbolizes the "rod of iron" in the book of Revelation, and encourages couples to bring the weapons.

http://www.dw.com/en/us-rifle-toting-worshippers-renew-wedding-vows-at-pennsylvania-church/a-42778174
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: wilber on March 01, 2018, 08:24:50 am
Gun control laws are already in place in some states and don’t need changes to the constitution.  It’s political will that is lacking, not the legal ability to make laws.

I was referring to a post that had a comment about constitutional change. There does need to be national standards, states can only do so much. They can’t secure their borders with other states from guns any more than you can stop people taking booze across provincial borders.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on March 09, 2018, 07:14:04 pm
This is a talk by Roger Scruton, the British philosopher and academic. He is discussing the reason for Trump being elected, and the feeling by what he calls the 'overlooked and ignored indigenous working class people' of the United States, that anyone was better than the Liberal elites who made little effort to disguise how much they despised them. It would not take a lot to reach out to that alienated group, but unfortunately, I don't see any real signs the Democrats are much interested in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9tZ3pmHKzs
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Manob on March 30, 2018, 11:55:20 pm
Just read the article in the OP. An epistemic crisis about sums things up. Unfortunately, I think the crisis is even force than the article describes. It focuses on how the far right is descending into "tribal epistemology". Unfortunately, it seems quite clear that the far left is doing the same thing, and that the portion of each side that falls into the "far" category is increasing, due to the effects of social media echo chambers (as well as targetted psy ops as discussed in the other thread). The middle is increasingly being hollowed out and the fraction of people who care about understanding reality rather than defending their tribal beliefs is dwindling.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on March 31, 2018, 05:58:14 am
So commit acts of random "middle-some".

I deleted a thread on my own facebook last night because people were being unkind to conservatives.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on March 31, 2018, 03:29:56 pm
Just read the article in the OP. An epistemic crisis about sums things up. Unfortunately, I think the crisis is even force than the article describes. It focuses on how the far right is descending into "tribal epistemology". Unfortunately, it seems quite clear that the far left is doing the same thing, and that the portion of each side that falls into the "far" category is increasing, due to the effects of social media echo chambers (as well as targetted psy ops as discussed in the other thread). The middle is increasingly being hollowed out and the fraction of people who care about understanding reality rather than defending their tribal beliefs is dwindling.

I have noticed this about myself. My core beliefs haven't really shifted rightward but the more I interact with leftist **** the more I'm willing to tolerate from those further on the right.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 01, 2018, 09:18:27 am
I have noticed this about myself. My core beliefs haven't really shifted rightward but the more I interact with leftist **** the more I'm willing to tolerate from those further on the right.

From the debates I have participated in over almost 20 years, I feel that left/right tribalism is preventing us from identifying people who can work on problems. 

SJ has posted an interesting video by someone who identifies the core values of left/right, which ostensibly could be a starting point for a post right-left discussion.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: kimmy on April 01, 2018, 09:47:33 pm
A viral video going around shows local news TV teams from all over America reading a prepared statement condemning "fake news".  The stations are affiliates of all of the major networks, but the one thing the stations have in common is that they are owned by Sinclair Broadcasting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI

Sinclair is not exactly a well known name here in Canada, but they are a very large media group and Trump supporter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvtNyOzGogc

Given its enthusiastic support for the Trump administration, it's no surprise that the Trump administration is equally supportive of Sinclair:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/15/17016286/fcc-ajit-pai-sinclair-broadcast-group-inspector-general-investigation

 -k
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: kimmy on April 02, 2018, 09:15:01 pm
More on the cozy relationship between Trump, Kuschner, and the Sinclair Broadcast Group.

https://www.gq.com/story/sinclair-white-house-ties

Quote
Trump has good reason to stick up for Sinclair. He has few safe spaces in legit news media, places where he can be relatively sure that his policies or scandals won't be pressed too hard. So far, Sinclair stations have been one of those safe spaces. That's all the more insidious because people expect that kind of contortionist support for Trump when they tune in to something like Fox News, but probably have some assumption of objectivity from their local news. And as Politico reports, last December Jared Kushner was openly bragging about striking a deal between Sinclair and the Trump campaign.

The Politico report indicates that the deal between Trump and Sinclair Broadcasting gave Sinclair special access to Trump in exchange for airing Trump interviews without commentary (which I assume means no fact-checking or tough questions.)

Quote
Kushner said the agreement with Sinclair, which owns television stations across the country in many swing states and often packages news for their affiliates to run, gave them more access to Trump and the campaign, according to six people who heard his remarks.

In exchange, Sinclair would broadcast their Trump interviews across the country without commentary, Kushner said.

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/trump-campaign-sinclair-broadcasting-jared-kushner-232764


 -k
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 03, 2018, 06:07:07 am
More on the cozy relationship between Trump, Kuschner, and the Sinclair Broadcast Group.
 

This makes me wonder if his success is more TV based than we have realized.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 03, 2018, 06:12:13 am
One Sinclair station stands as refusenik:

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/381352-sinclair-owned-tv-station-chooses-not-to-air-media-bias-promo
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: SirJohn on November 11, 2018, 07:53:23 pm
Wasn't sure whether to post this. It seems logical and truthful, but it's probably a longer read than most people with typical short attention spans would be interested in so I will post what I consider the most pertinent segments.

Here’s the secret about modern political tribalism: it has little to with policy or ideology. In fact, research suggests that political identities are weak predictors of policy preferences with Americans routinely overestimating the policy preferences of Republicans and Democrats.

In reality, modern political tribalism appears to be a vehicle for more conventional forms of tribalism. It is driven by differences of race, religion, geography, gender, and class, but is conveniently housed within the confines of a political contest. The reason for this is that our social identities have coalesced, aligning with our political identities. Put differently, our political preferences are becoming strong indicators of our race, religion, sexual orientation, and gender.

....

Along the same lines, 63% of Republicans and 49% of Democrats report being friends primarily with those sharing their political views. Another nationally representative study found that 20% of Democrats and 15% of Republicans believe that their country would be better off if large numbers of people in the other party died. We’ve traded one prejudice for another.

Part of these changes is due to the reduction of “cross-cutting cleavages.” These are shared identities that are present in one social group but also in others. For example, rival fan bases will support their hometown team, but will also unite to support their nation’s Olympic team.

Political scientists have long held that the effects of partisanship are dampened by cross-cutting cleavages. Mutual social ties provide a sort of common ground from which political rivals can collaborate. A wealthy Republican can find common ground with a working-class Democrat if they both attend the same church.

But the sorting of American social groups into two political tribes has reduced our cross-cutting ties. When we identify most with our political parties, our shared identities fade into the background. Under these conditions, communication collapses, trust dissipates, and hostilities intensify.

...

But without a tribe we run the risk of social isolation and a loss of self. As sociobiologist E. O. Wilson writes, “to be kept in solitude is to be kept in pain…a person’s membership in his group—his tribe—is a large part of his identity.”

...
We think ourselves too busy or too important to attend religious services, volunteer, or participate in community organizations. As a result, cross-cutting cleavages have evaporated. Without civic engagement, shared identities and common interests atrophy or fail to develop. We lose track of unifying elements.
For people to coexist, trust is required. And cross-cutting cleavages are essential for this. Without them, we will seek out other measures of trust. Archaic forms of tribalism may emerge.

...
The Republican and Democratic mega-identities are a consequence of our return to an archaic tribalism which prioritizes salient features over political or civic values. Political observers have referred to this as “identity politics,” a seemingly new phenomenon. But that’s not actually true. As Jonah Goldberg contends, “‘Identity politics’ may be a modern term, but it is an ancient idea. Embracing it is not a step forward but a retreat to the past.”



https://quillette.com/2018/11/06/blame-modern-life-for-political-strife/
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2018, 08:02:33 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: America's Epistemic Crisis
Post by: Rue on November 20, 2018, 11:26:58 am
Sounds familiar. I asked for an alternative to tax records when determining who would be affected by tax changes because Tim didn't think CRA's books were good enough. He still hasn't provided that alternative.

I don't want to change the subject of this thread and you know I agree with you on the climate issue, but with due respect, have you ever tried to get an explanation out of the CRA how they determine their assessments?  With due respect the CRA is a nightmare. They have an open ended warrant to do whatever they want to you or I and they do. Why you would trust them or any  government bureaucracy I do not know but its naïve.

I have dealt as a lawyer with numerous errors and mistakes by government bureaucrats. The extent of their waste and incompetence is not to be under-stated and I think Tim G's point is that and its not a right or left wing issue. Distrust or suspicion of the size of government and its functions is a non partisan issue and will always exist if for no other reason, the inherent nature of any institution that gets too big and is not accountable and gets too complex  to understand or be able to talk to sparks this distrust and so it should. Unaccountable power corrupts.

Now relating that to Trump and the US crisis, the US has always had a "crisis". All societies do and we will always have them. They don't suddenly appear.  They are continuations of unresolved past issues that morph into new ones.  If  we properly examine their historical context we can get a more accurate understanding where these issues arose from and therefore how to resolve them.

Sor for example, the election of Trump was a response to Obama. The pendelum swung from one direction for Obama, to the other direction for Trump and that pendelum will continue to swing back and forth no different than market corrections on the stock market or say with medical issues where we take a drug to deal with one issue but then create another from the side effect.

Of course the US has a collective  distrust of authority. It  started with its founders rebelling against King George. That lack of trust over government and taxes has never ended. Its an inherent feature of its identity and we Canadians don't get that because our country was founded on welcoming and being loyal to the same King.

 People like Trump exploit fear of authoritty and other fears. They mirror the collective fears of the day to get themselves empowered and elected. The thing is that is not hard to do. People like Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, showed its not that hard to do. You don't need any intelligence, just brutal force and hatred.

Leaders like say Ghandi, MLK, RFK,  die, precisely because their messages are threatening to people who can't deal with possibilities and instead  need to dwell in the here and now material world of immediate needs.

Spirtual messages from politicians is not a part of Western traditiional politics-appealing to material (anti-spiritual) values like jobs, wealth, lack of taxesr is.

Spiritual messages don't get you elected.  Appealing to you being over taxed or not having a job does. People want immediate needs addressed.A guy like Trump knows he can't address those needs so he distracts his followers by delivering them here and now attacks against perceived enemies.

It provides the illusion Trump is in control when he's not, and simply serves as a smoke screen... a distraction.... a circus act....a  cover to deflect attention away from  the actual networks of power who do their thing without any attention brought to them by the media.

Trump is just a puppet bafoon on a string like most politicians. The problem is when people like Putin and Trump go off script and become a liability to their handlers  is hard to read.

You would think by now Trump had burned any support for himself but he seems to chug along just fine. He's a Teflon man. Then again there was a Teflon Don in New York City and he eventually got it.

All these puppets go down sooner or later. Obama seems to have played it shrewdly. and survived....but was that him who did it or was it  the powers that be allowing it. ....who knows. I don't get too conspiratorial about who is behind the scenes pulling the strings so whether you want to call it the Zionist Mason Illuminati Satan worshippings hape shifting Lizard cannibal eater cabal, or anything else, be my guest...but come on... does anyone really think Trump could do what he does if it was not enabled? Think about it. Sure there is chaos, corruption, sheer mismanagement, wh ich I believe is inherent in all institutions......but someone in that mess is manipulating it as well. Some if its planned, some of it totally accidental and therein lies the problem, trying to decipher the difference between intelligently planned policies or organized interest grous  or sheer chaos and greedy people simply exploiting that chaos in any given moment  is hard to decipher and differentiate  because its all inter-linked.

Do we have a war with China? Well people said there was gong to be one with Russia and North Korea but Trump's head I s for far up both Kim's and Putin's buttockses that is hard to see happening. If he were to pull his head out at this point Putin would seriously hemmorage.

So China? Please. You think China and the US can afford to have a military war or need one? Come on. All China or anyone has to do is detonate a now radiation bomb in the skies over their enemy and it will shut down the energy and internet grid. Why shoot a missile to cripple a nation when a cybr attack can do that without immediate blood?

Nuclear weapons my ass. An idiot shows every day all you need is a virus in a tube, an assault rifle, a dirty bomb, to cause mass havoc.

Conventional war has gone the way of the do do bird. Today's wars are about contained war zones with non uniformed abstract terrorist enemies being supposedly attacked. China, Russia, the US, we all pick and choose one of the pit-bills in the ring and cheer it on.