Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 11:12:19 am

Title: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 11:12:19 am
Quote
After two years of relative calm, Ukraine's war with Russian-backed rebels took a deadly and destructive turn this week, pushing one town in the country's eastern region to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.

Intense shelling has left Avdiivka, a community of 20,000 people located just north of Donetsk, without electricity, heat or water during a particularly frigid cold spell that's seen temperatures drop to -22 C at night.

But it's not the cold residents dread the most; it's the threat of lethal Grad rockets, a type of unguided heavy artillery developed by the Soviet Union.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-russia-fighting-avdiivka-1.3962203

With the newfound love between Putin and Trump, I see the end of Ukraine as a separate entity of Russia in the very near future.  I certainly won't be planning and trips to Kiev.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 11:34:34 am
That's where the eu needs to grow some stones and put some troops in the Ukraine.  It can't always be the USA running around.  Surprised the Eu hasn't made Ukraine a member as well as NATO.  Putin likes to make big moves and needs to be countered
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 11:47:31 am
That's where the eu needs to grow some stones and put some troops in the Ukraine.  It can't always be the USA running around.  Surprised the Eu hasn't made Ukraine a member as well as NATO.  Putin likes to make big moves and needs to be countered

I would agree with you, actually.  What is required from the US is supportive mouth noises for any EU intervention.  I'm not sure they can even count on that at this point.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: cybercoma on February 02, 2017, 12:56:59 pm
That's where the eu needs to grow some stones and put some troops in the Ukraine.  It can't always be the USA running around.  Surprised the Eu hasn't made Ukraine a member as well as NATO.  Putin likes to make big moves and needs to be countered
I agree with you in theory.

However, I think there's something worth considering with this argument. The world is generally more peaceful now due to economic integration and a host of other factors. Consequently, EU nations have reduced their spending on military. The threat from Russia now and your suggestion provokes an arms race. We're talking about nations building up military power.

When countries begin spending a hell of a lot more money on hammers, they're going to start looking for nails.

While I don't agree with the idea that the United States should always be the ones to intervene, it did prevent nations from building up their own armed forces and "solving" problems themselves. It's a double-edged sword.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 01:01:22 pm
That's a good point - Europe has not always been the most peaceful of places.  If European countries start building up their militaries, there's just as much chance of them turning it on each other as on their 'common' enemy.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 07:43:25 pm
However, I think there's something worth considering with this argument. The world is generally more peaceful now due to economic integration and a host of other factors. Consequently, EU nations have reduced their spending on military. The threat from Russia now and your suggestion provokes an arms race. We're talking about nations building up military power.

When countries begin spending a hell of a lot more money on hammers, they're going to start looking for nails.

While I don't agree with the idea that the United States should always be the ones to intervene, it did prevent nations from building up their own armed forces and "solving" problems themselves. It's a double-edged sword.

The problem is that Russia has already started an arms race and has been provocative for the past 8 yrs.  they have shown that they can and will use their military to achieve foreign policy goals.  I would say it's reasonable for the eu especially Poland, Hungary, and the Baltic states to prepare to defend themselves and to counter Russia.

The Americans can't subsidize europes defence forever.  It would be simpler if Russia wasn't throwing its weight around, but this is what we got.  The USA throws its weight around that's for sure, the danger is when two players start...
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2017, 07:48:07 pm
Russia actually isn't all that powerful.  I've read that they make small strategic moves making them look stronger in a conventional military sense than they are.  They have a nuclear arsenal that no one can match though.

They're doing this all because they're broke.  That's what it all comes down to.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: Blueblood on February 02, 2017, 09:43:00 pm
Russia actually isn't all that powerful.  I've read that they make small strategic moves making them look stronger in a conventional military sense than they are.  They have a nuclear arsenal that no one can match though.

They're doing this all because they're broke.  That's what it all comes down to.

The USA can match their nuclear arsenal in terms of mutually assured destruction. 

Even though they are broke they are wielding power unchecked.  I hate to invoke the Darwin rule but pre war Germany was also broke.

Russia does only have one rickety old carrier which the USA can make quick work of.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: guest4 on February 03, 2017, 07:36:12 am
That's sad.  My stepdad's family came from the Ukraine, though I don't know which region. 
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2017, 03:01:24 pm
The first step in Russia reclaiming its old empire.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: Blueblood on February 03, 2017, 03:43:04 pm
The first step in Russia reclaiming its old empire.

That's until someone finally counters Putin
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2017, 04:43:24 pm
Quote
That's until someone finally counters Putin

Yup, won't be the US from the look of it. A united Europe maybe but Trump doesn't want that either.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2017, 04:47:10 pm
Yup, won't be the US from the look of it. A united Europe maybe but Trump doesn't want that either.

A united Europe is a great idea.  Too bad it's never a reality.
Title: Re: As the US Cozies up to Russia, Ukrainian Town Ends Up in Ruins
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2017, 06:02:03 pm
Quote
A united Europe is a great idea.  Too bad it's never a reality.

It is a reality and Trump may be a catalyst that unites it even more.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/03/eu-leaders-trump-may-attempt-act-bridge-malta-summit (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/03/eu-leaders-trump-may-attempt-act-bridge-malta-summit)

The dumb f@%&ks are at it again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/former-norway-pm-bondevik-held-washington-dulles-airport-2014-visit-iran (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/former-norway-pm-bondevik-held-washington-dulles-airport-2014-visit-iran)

The former prime minister of a NATO ally for craps sake. Oh, but Trump doesn't like NATO either.