Canadian Political Events

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 11:44:14 am

Title: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 11:44:14 am
So some Canadians are whining because the government won't send military planes down to the Caribbean to fetch them home. They went there for a holiday adn things aren't fun any more, damnit! MOMMMYYY!

What you didn't know a hurricane was coming? It's not like your life is in danger. You're not starving and nobody is torturing you. You're just uncomfortable, and will get out soon as the airports reopen.

People who were flooded in Ontario and Quebec are whining because the government hasn't given them enough money, or no money. Did the government tell you to build a nice home on the edge of a river? No, you did it because of the view. You didn't think maybe that would expose you to floods on occasion? Why is it the government's job to pay you off because you wanted a river view? Rebuild your own damn house.

There were hearings last week because Air Transit kept some people in its planes on the runway in Ottawa for hours and the way people who testified described it you'd think it was another Holocaust and they were lucky to survive it. There was no air conditioning! I was hungry! Hey, did you choose Air Transit because it had rock bottom prices or what?

All I hear is whining that the government isn't doing enough for people in their daily lives. Whatever the problem is it's like government is mommy, and people want them to take care of it. Nor does anyone show a lick of gratitude afterward.

Almost a third of Canadians who live in this beautiful country pay no taxes. They have full access to all its bounty, ride on its roads, go to school, have full health care and all other government services from police and fire to snow clearing. Government checks their food for safety and ensures the buildings they live in won't collapse. They pay nothing for this. Do you think any of them feels the slightest gratitude? Nope. They resent not being given more.

Even the ones on welfare whose every bite of food is paid for by others, who live in a house paid for by others, and wear clothes paid for by others (including natives on reserves) seem to have zero gratitude and just sulky complaints about not getting more.

Is the concept of taking personal responsibility for our own actions totally lost on people?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 11, 2017, 12:02:42 pm
1. So some Canadians are whining because the government won't send military planes down to the Caribbean to fetch them home. They went there for a holiday adn things aren't fun any more, damnit! MOMMMYYY!
 
2. There were hearings last week because Air Transit kept some people in its planes on the runway in Ottawa for hours and the way people who testified described it you'd think it was another Holocaust and they were lucky to survive it. There was no air conditioning! I was hungry! Hey, did you choose Air Transit because it had rock bottom prices or what?

3.  Almost a third of Canadians who live in this beautiful country pay no taxes.

Some points:
1. You're *kind of* defending the Trudeau government here.  Since we're being all switchy, I'll attack them: they did a shit job of communicating with people, as has happened again and again with Foreign Affairs.
2. I kind of agree with you here. 
3. Yes, but what was the case before the race to the bottom ?  Are people who are at the bottom end paying no taxes now, or are they making less money ?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 11, 2017, 12:08:42 pm
Almost a third of Canadians who live in this beautiful country pay no taxes.

I don't really have much to say about your opening post, but this little tidbit raised my eyebrow.  On the tax-loophole thread, you added a good 15-20% to your OVERALL tax rate by including consumption tax.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself here?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: cybercoma on September 11, 2017, 12:11:36 pm
I don't really have much to say about your opening post, but this little tidbit raised my eyebrow.  On the tax-loophole thread, you added a good 15-20% to your OVERALL tax rate by including consumption tax.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself here?
Oh but they get a GST cheque.  ::)
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 08:16:57 pm
I don't really have much to say about your opening post, but this little tidbit raised my eyebrow.  On the tax-loophole thread, you added a good 15-20% to your OVERALL tax rate by including consumption tax.

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself here?

I consume more. :-p
I also don't get an HST refund cheque. I pay tax on my house and condo, gas taxes, and other taxes you probably don't if you're poor given many of life's requirements like basic groceries don't get taxed.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 08:31:24 pm
Some points:
1. You're *kind of* defending the Trudeau government here.

So? I attacked Harper's government often enough.

Quote
3. Yes, but what was the case before the race to the bottom ?  Are people who are at the bottom end paying no taxes now, or are they making less money ?

Over the last 20 years, the percentage of the Canadian population living in poverty has declined. Specifically, the percentage living in households below the basic needs poverty line has fallen from 6.7 percent in 1996 to 4.8 percent in 2009 (latest year of available data). Meanwhile, the percentage living in households below Statistics Canada’s low income cut off (LICO) has also decreased from a height of 15.2 percent in 1996 to 9.7 percent in 2013 (the latest year of available data). The incidence of low income among specific vulnerable groups (children, seniors, and persons in lone-parent families) has also dropped over time. 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/an-introduction-to-the-state-of-poverty-in-canada (https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/an-introduction-to-the-state-of-poverty-in-canada)


What’s more, as the Parliamentary Budget Officer noted last year, the tax changes introduced under the Tories since 2006 “have been progressive overall. Low and middle income earners have benefited more, in relative terms, than higher income earners.” Their income-splitting policy slightly shifts benefits up the income ladder, but it still benefits the middle class most.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/judge-harpers-economic-record-by-the-hand-he-was-dealt/article25867267/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& (https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/judge-harpers-economic-record-by-the-hand-he-was-dealt/article25867267/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&)

Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 11, 2017, 09:28:53 pm
Ok.  So above 'low income' the next 20% doesn't pay taxes ?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2017, 12:00:41 pm
Ok.  So above 'low income' the next 20% doesn't pay taxes ?

My point is not to rehash previous discussions on who pays what in taxes but to point out the sense of entitlement and lack of gratitude in our society.

A hundred years ago the government took care of basic infrastructure and nothing else. You were on your own to lead your life as best you could and to succeed or fail depending on your abilities and luck. And no one expected anything different. Certainly no one was willing to pay the government to do more.

We have gone all the way over to the other side now, it seems, where government takes vast sums of our income and is expected to take care of all our problems, so when it does people aren't grateful. They just figure that's the way things are supposed to be. Whenever the government fails to fully live up to their sense of what should be done, people get angry. And this happens regardless of how much or how little tax dollars people contribute to the government's resources.  And it has been spread to private entities now too. People expect to get their way, and to be looked after in all things, and to have their issues redressed whenever they're unhappy with things. As if they're children stomping up and down and screaming angrily at their mommies.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 12, 2017, 07:24:58 pm
SirJohn I generally agree with your opening post. It's like a teenager or young adult that is given everything by their parents and comes to expect being given things and isn't appreciative, and as a result isn't able to function on their own with sucking on the teet.  The parents think they're just being good to their child but they're actually making them weaker and more less independent.  Next thing you know you have an otherwise healthy grown child in their 30's living in their parents basement, not well adjusted and unable to fend for themselves in the real world because they remain in the protective bubble of the parents.

I'm certainly not rich by any means, but last week I had 40% of my paycheque go to income taxes and deductions from the government.  That doesn't include the 13% i'll have to spend on GST on top of that and other taxes.  We need taxes to pay for vital services and to help the people who genuinely need help, like the disabled and the sick, but c'mon.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 12, 2017, 07:42:25 pm
I'm certainly not rich by any means, but last week I had 40% of my paycheque go to income taxes and deductions from the government.  That doesn't include the 13% i'll have to spend on GST on top of that and other taxes.  We need taxes to pay for vital services and to help the people who genuinely need help, like the disabled and the sick, but c'mon.

I know Ontario is taxed slightly higher than BC, but just for fun I ran the numbers on CRA website for what your income tax would be on $150,000.  Your total tax (federal and provincial) is $46,656 which is just over 31%.

If you paid more than that, you're not as 'not rich' as you say you are.  Or maybe it was a bonus which ends up being dispersed over your annual earnings and taxed slightly higher.

Either way, 40% doesn't sound right even for a nicely compensated position. 

And the 13% HST is not straight across everything you earn, I would hope.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 13, 2017, 09:55:41 am
Quote
Either way, 40% doesn't sound right even for a nicely compensated position. 

It sounds about right to me.  Almost exactly 1/3 of my monthly paycheque goes directly to taxes and deductions.  Add in the taxes I pay on everything else during the month and I bet it would be about 40% of my income that goes to the government.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: the_squid on September 13, 2017, 10:25:15 am
It sounds about right to me.  Almost exactly 1/3 of my monthly paycheque goes directly to taxes and deductions.  Add in the taxes I pay on everything else during the month and I bet it would be about 40% of my income that goes to the government.

You don't know?   If you care so much, why don't you buy a notepad and a calculator and figure it out?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2017, 10:35:09 am
You don't know?   If you care so much, why don't you buy a notepad and a calculator and figure it out?
I have a very hard time believing the claim.

Consider this. We will use hypothetical numbers.

Someone makes a gross income on their paycheck: $2400.

Say 2/3 of that goes towards taxes, EI, CPP, etc. (EI and CPP aren't taxes, but we'll pretend that they are)

They're left with $1600 net income.

If they spend every last dime of that $1600 on taxable goods then roughly $200 of that will be taxed with consumption taxes (we'll even pretend that they have zero non-taxable spending despite the fact that groceries and rents aren't taxed).

That means another $200 on top of the $800 they spent on taxes is added to their tax burden. That's a total of $1000 out of $2400 or 42% taxes.

The problem is that this is a completely unreasonable scenario.

First of all, it presumes they spend every last penny of their income. People do not.
It presumes that EI and CPP are taxes. They are not.
It presumes that every last dollar of their spending is on taxable goods. It's not. Not even close.

So they're not paying anywhere even close to the theoretical maximum tax. They would literally have to spend every last penny of their income on taxable goods and services for that to be the case. That means they wouldn't have a roof over their head or food in their belly (unless they literally only ever ate at restaurants).

Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 13, 2017, 11:22:47 am
You don't know?   If you care so much, why don't you buy a notepad and a calculator and figure it out?

Yes, I do know.  I'm just not sharing my personal pay stub numbers on a public forum.  I hope you understand.  :)
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: guest4 on September 13, 2017, 02:03:47 pm
Yes, I do know.  I'm just not sharing my personal pay stub numbers on a public forum.  I hope you understand.  :)
  I believe he was suggesting you could use paper and pencil to figure out how much additional you pay in consumption taxes, since you were "guessing" that took you to 40%.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 13, 2017, 02:19:16 pm
  I believe he was suggesting you could use paper and pencil to figure out how much additional you pay in consumption taxes, since you were "guessing" that took you to 40%.

Oh yes.  I'm aware it was an insult.  I just was trying to not respond in kind.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2017, 03:53:02 pm
SirJohn I generally agree with your opening post. It's like a teenager or young adult that is given everything by their parents and comes to expect being given things and isn't appreciative, and as a result isn't able to function on their own with sucking on the teet.  The parents think they're just being good to their child but they're actually making them weaker and more less independent.  Next thing you know you have an otherwise healthy grown child in their 30's living in their parents basement, not well adjusted and unable to fend for themselves in the real world because they remain in the protective bubble of the parents.

I've read and see a number of university professor talking about how students come there and have never been challenged, have, in fact, been protected from challenges, both at school and by their parents. We're talking about the generation which was never allowed out of their parents' site until they were teenagers, the ones who got badges, medals, ribbons and trophies just for participating, whose schools tailored the curriculum to reinforce their self-esteem and encourage reports of 'bullying' - which they actually do! I'm not talking about what we used to call bullying. Just criticizing someone's shirt or shoes is considered bullying these days. Saying anything unkind or unflattering is bullying. In my day we'd never tattle to teachers, even if some kid punched us in the head. Nowadays they run to teacher immediately.

To paraphrase one professor he said the ones entering university over the last few years have been the best prepared in terms of knowledge and abilities, and the most emotionally unprepared and fragile of any group he's ever seen.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 13, 2017, 07:43:41 pm
I know Ontario is taxed slightly higher than BC, but just for fun I ran the numbers on CRA website for what your income tax would be on $150,000.  Your total tax (federal and provincial) is $46,656 which is just over 31%.

If you paid more than that, you're not as 'not rich' as you say you are.  Or maybe it was a bonus which ends up being dispersed over your annual earnings and taxed slightly higher.

Either way, 40% doesn't sound right even for a nicely compensated position. 

I looked again, you're right it was a extra portion of my pay, not my regular wage, which is certainly lower than 30%

Why do they seem to tax things like overtime higher?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 13, 2017, 09:57:38 pm
It sounds about right to me.  Almost exactly 1/3 of my monthly paycheque goes directly to taxes and deductions.  Add in the taxes I pay on everything else during the month and I bet it would be about 40% of my income that goes to the government.

I've worked in accounting, including HR and payroll for over 15 years.  I hear this kind of gripe all the time from employees, and honestly, it always comes down to a miscalculation which can easily be explained.

I've attached the screen-shot for you for payroll income tax-deductions for someone in Ontario (highest taxed province) who makes 50K, 100K, 150K, 200K, 250K and 300K. 

As Cybercoma said, CPP and EI and are not taxes.  The former is for your retirement and the latter is insurance should you need. 

Also to add to that, they are only deducted on the first ~$50K, so it's not a straight deduction throughout the year for high-earners, and if you're making $50K/yr you're only paying about 16% total tax, so it brings your overall total deduction to ~22%.

Before I break it down, please remember these amounts do not include any tax credits whatsoever.  As you are aware, you are likely to get a refund when you do your taxes at the end of year.  But even at the maximum, before any amounts are returned, you'll see the following:

(calculated semi-monthly)

50K/yr = 337/2083 = 16%
100K/yr - 1029/4166 = 24.7%
150K/yr = 1943/6249 = 31%
200K/yr = 2942/8322 = 35%

These two I'll have to post separately as they exceed my attachment maximum:

250k/yr = 4046/10416 = 38%
300k/yr = 5162/12500 = 41%

Basically, unless you're in the 1% making 300K/yr, you're not paying 40% tax.  If you make less than 300K and you are paying 40% tax, you need to discuss it with your HR department ASAP!

Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 13, 2017, 10:00:06 pm

These two I'll have to post separately as they exceed my attachment maximum:

250k/yr = 4046/10416 = 38%
300k/yr = 5162/12500 = 41%



And the last two attachments
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 13, 2017, 10:51:19 pm
PS, for those in the 1% making 300K/yr, you're hopefully not paying 40% tax either.  Assuming you're on payroll and all your income is taxable (a rarity to begin with), you have many good ways to reduce that through RRSP's or investing in CRCE companies. 

Sorry folks, I call caca when I see it.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 14, 2017, 05:47:30 am
I've read and see a number of university professor talking about how students come there and have never been challenged, have, in fact, been protected from challenges, both at school and by their parents. We're talking about the generation which was never allowed out of their parents' site until they were teenagers, the ones who got badges, medals, ribbons and trophies just for participating, whose schools tailored the curriculum to reinforce their self-esteem and encourage reports of 'bullying' - which they actually do! I'm not talking about what we used to call bullying. Just criticizing someone's shirt or shoes is considered bullying these days. Saying anything unkind or unflattering is bullying. In my day we'd never tattle to teachers, even if some kid punched us in the head. Nowadays they run to teacher immediately.

To paraphrase one professor he said the ones entering university over the last few years have been the best prepared in terms of knowledge and abilities, and the most emotionally unprepared and fragile of any group he's ever seen.

I have heard this also, but it's anecdotal and not quantifiable so I'm dubious.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Hydra.Boss on September 14, 2017, 11:32:49 am
it's anecdotal and not quantifiable
It's bloody quantifiable enough in my world....two kids, 19 and 20. 

My son is the younger and living in his own apartment, full time job, credit card, vehicle loan, etc.  Doesn't expect anyone to give him anything (except maybe a little "help" from dad once in a while that he doesn't ask for). 

Now my daughter?  Totally different situation - living with her boyfriend, no job, no education past high school, no interest in finding a job or getting her license, and thinks the world should pay her for her efforts.  Big into "social causes" whether they affect her or not (or whether she even understands them or not!)  I remember her getting all worked up because my son said he couldn't give a damn one way or the other if someone is gay - she started going off how "that's illegal!!!"  I had to set her straight on "the law".  Hate to say it, but my girl turned out to be the epitome of a "snowflake" as did a whole pile of the people she went to high school with.

Parents and teachers jointly created these types of people.

The boy is proud of what he has because he earned it.  The girl has no respect for anything really and I think it's because things were just given to her without any effort on her part.  This would be the very definition of "entitlement culture".
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: guest4 on September 14, 2017, 02:02:06 pm
As long as we are using personal anecdotes as proof.... I have some too.  :)

My two kids, boy and a girl.  Boy has always worked and been 'responsible' from a young age.  Daughter, not so much.  Took her a while to figure out she would have to work and couldn"t expect the rest of the world to pick up her slack.  Eventually she did, but she was pushing 30.

My friend has two kids, a boy and girl, both in their 20s.  Girl is goal-oriented, responsible, takes care of her own stuff.  The boy, not so much.

Anecdotes don"t really mean much, though. 
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 14, 2017, 02:08:35 pm


As Cybercoma said, CPP and EI and are not taxes.  The former is for your retirement and the latter is insurance should you need. 

Also to add to that, they are only deducted on the first ~$50K, so it's not a straight deduction throughout the year for high-earners, and if you're making $50K/yr you're only paying about 16% total tax, so it brings your overall total deduction to ~22%.


Basically, unless you're in the 1% making 300K/yr, you're not paying 40% tax.  If you make less than 300K and you are paying 40% tax, you need to discuss it with your HR department ASAP!

Thanks for that info.  Ya, I don't need the figures for making 300K/yr.  LOL  ;D

I've never used EI and I've been told for the last 10-15 years or so that the CPP coffers will be long gone by the time I'm ready to collect, so I don't rely on that for retirement and view it as an additional "tax" for which I will get nothing in return.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised when I retire and receive a CPP cheque.  We'll see.  But I'm sure not counting on it.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 14, 2017, 02:31:20 pm
It's bloody quantifiable enough in my world....two kids, 19 and 20. 

My son is the younger and living in his own apartment, full time job, credit card, vehicle loan, etc.  Doesn't expect anyone to give him anything (except maybe a little "help" from dad once in a while that he doesn't ask for). 

Ok, so your evidence is your own kids ?  Okaaaaay.

It's really difficult to quantify such things, and keep in mind if you're on this board then the same things were said about your generation.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 14, 2017, 02:32:26 pm
  Anecdotes don"t really mean much, though.

Booyah.  I have anecdotes as well, working with teams of millennials.  They were all great but you won't find me using that as definitive proof that millennials are all awesome.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 14, 2017, 02:58:56 pm
Thanks for that info.  Ya, I don't need the figures for making 300K/yr.  LOL  ;D

I've never used EI and I've been told for the last 10-15 years or so that the CPP coffers will be long gone by the time I'm ready to collect, so I don't rely on that for retirement and view it as an additional "tax" for which I will get nothing in return.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised when I retire and receive a CPP cheque.  We'll see.  But I'm sure not counting on it.

CPP was in a bit of crisis 10-15 years ago but its assets are doing well now and as far as I know, it should be there when you retire.  Plus you'll have your OAS as well so the big evil government that takes your money will make sure you have a few things to fall back on. 

EI is an insurance premium and just like car insurance, it's ridiculously expensive and even if you don't need it, it's mandatory to have.  The max is ~$800/yr right now so without considering rate change and inflation and assuming a 40 year career based on today's amounts ($32,000), should you ever need it for one year it's paid for itself.  I'm self-employed and I've had to cover my own mat-leave both times and trust me, anything I saved being self-employed probably went right out the window for those two years.

To elaborate on something I said earlier, they're 6.4% if you make less than $50K, but your tax-rate is quite low at that point and if say you make 100K, combined they only make 3.4% of your income since they cap out.  That's even if we consider them along with tax, which I don't think we should.

I'm glad the numbers make more sense.  I don't like when people think the government is just out to rob everyone and they're convinced they're giving away more than they're getting. 

Personally, I agree payroll people have it worst and self-employed and corporations need to pitch in more in order for payroll tax rates to come down, but that's another argument. 

As far as this thread is concerned, a little perspective helps when people say they're paying 40% in tax on a modest income (or in SJ's case 50%+) when there is no way.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 14, 2017, 03:13:12 pm
As long as we are using personal anecdotes as proof.... I have some too.  :)

My two kids, boy and a girl.  Boy has always worked and been 'responsible' from a young age.  Daughter, not so much.  Took her a while to figure out she would have to work and couldn"t expect the rest of the world to pick up her slack.  Eventually she did, but she was pushing 30.

My friend has two kids, a boy and girl, both in their 20s.  Girl is goal-oriented, responsible, takes care of her own stuff.  The boy, not so much.

Anecdotes don"t really mean much, though.

I have some anecdotes too but not for my family personally.  How come all the socialist (read - Entitled) European countries with work/life balance and heavy taxation aren't falling apart economically and have such better standard of living and happier citizens? 

How come the US has so much more maternal mortality than the rest of the developed world even though their healthcare is private and top tier?  How come their taxation is slightly below ours yet their citizens have so little compared to ours?

What measure should we really be using to assess a country's performance when it comes to taxation and providing for its citizens?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 14, 2017, 03:15:42 pm
Thanks, BC.  I'm fortunate to have an employer who also contributes to my RRSP, too.  For a small company, we have a lot of benefits - health, dental, eyecare.  Plus she gives everyone 1 paid sick day/month (It can accrue but goes back to 0 if you don't use them by the end of the year) and just a couple weeks ago, she is giving us each 1 paid "mental health day"/month.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: BC_cheque on September 14, 2017, 03:23:36 pm
Thanks, BC.  I'm fortunate to have an employer who also contributes to my RRSP, too.  For a small company, we have a lot of benefits - health, dental, eyecare.  Plus she gives everyone 1 paid sick day/month (It can accrue but goes back to 0 if you don't use them by the end of the year) and just a couple weeks ago, she is giving us each 1 paid "mental health day"/month.

Nice!  There are many benefits to being on payroll.  I had two bad experiences being laid off and I vowed never to work for one company again and I went into self-employment. 

I have to pay for all my own extended benefits (for which I do budget), my own retirement, mat-leave, personal days and stats and holidays and although it's desperately needed, I don't get any mental health days!   :'(

A nice reliable employer who treats its employees well is worth its weight in gold.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Goddess on September 14, 2017, 03:38:59 pm
I was self-employed for almost 20 yrs, so I hear ya.  But sometimes I miss it.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: TimG on September 14, 2017, 04:56:26 pm
I have some anecdotes too but not for my family personally.  How come all the socialist (read - Entitled) European countries with work/life balance and heavy taxation aren't falling apart economically and have such better standard of living and happier citizens?
Smaller homogeneous countries are better able to maintain the social cohesion necessary to maintain high tax rates and a nanny state. Such cohesion simply does not exist in Canada or the US. I personally think work place benefits are over rated and I would rather just get the cash (i.e. a company that gives you a mental health day has factored that into your salary so you are making less than what you could make without the benefit).
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2017, 06:38:29 pm
How come all the socialist (read - Entitled) European countries with work/life balance and heavy taxation aren't falling apart economically and have such better standard of living and happier citizens? 

Who says socialist=entitled? And who says they have a better standard of living? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that most Europeans don't focus so much on things as the Americans do - and we tend to take after the Americans since much of our culture is seen through their TV shows and movies. My understanding is house/apartment sizes tend to be much smaller, people are much less likely to have cars, much less multiple cars. On the other hand, most Europeans get way more vacation time than we do and work to live rather than living to work.

Quote
How come the US has so much more maternal mortality than the rest of the developed world even though their healthcare is private and top tier?  How come their taxation is slightly below ours yet their citizens have so little compared to ours?

The US is separate countries. If you do the stats on just the White part of America you'll find that they are wealthier than us and have much bigger houses on much bigger plots of land, as well as very low infant mortality rates. These are, by and large, people with good health care plans(though not not ALL of them obviously). If you examine Blacks and Hispanics, on the other hand, the statistics will be considerably different.

Quote
What measure should we really be using to assess a country's performance when it comes to taxation and providing for its citizens?

That's hard to say since what makes the people in one nation happy won't suffice for the people in another. The Americans are obsessed with personal freedom and government non-interference, for example, but Europeans, not so much. I would say that the life of a Frenchman or British man or Dutchman is largely better than that of the average American (or Canadian), with less stress and more vacation time. People have less money, but the government does more for them. But it's not as simple as just going their way and upping taxes. We spend about the same on our public health care as they do on theirs, for example, but we don't get as much for it.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 08:12:07 am
It's bloody quantifiable enough in my world....two kids, 19 and 20. 

My son is the younger and living in his own apartment, full time job, credit card, vehicle loan, etc.  Doesn't expect anyone to give him anything (except maybe a little "help" from dad once in a while that he doesn't ask for). 

Now my daughter?  Totally different situation - living with her boyfriend, no job, no education past high school, no interest in finding a job or getting her license, and thinks the world should pay her for her efforts.  Big into "social causes" whether they affect her or not (or whether she even understands them or not!)  I remember her getting all worked up because my son said he couldn't give a damn one way or the other if someone is gay - she started going off how "that's illegal!!!"  I had to set her straight on "the law".  Hate to say it, but my girl turned out to be the epitome of a "snowflake" as did a whole pile of the people she went to high school with.

Parents and teachers jointly created these types of people.

The boy is proud of what he has because he earned it.  The girl has no respect for anything really and I think it's because things were just given to her without any effort on her part.  This would be the very definition of "entitlement culture".
These are called personal anecdotes that are embedded in your biased opinions on the situation. This is not empirical quantification.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 08:13:35 am
Thanks for that info.  Ya, I don't need the figures for making 300K/yr.  LOL  ;D

I've never used EI and I've been told for the last 10-15 years or so that the CPP coffers will be long gone by the time I'm ready to collect, so I don't rely on that for retirement and view it as an additional "tax" for which I will get nothing in return.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised when I retire and receive a CPP cheque.  We'll see.  But I'm sure not counting on it.
CPP doesn't go into general revenue, so whoever is telling you that is grossly misinformed. What may be true is that CPP won't be enough for your lifestyle.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 10:14:54 am
These are called personal anecdotes that are embedded in your biased opinions on the situation. This is not empirical quantification.

Can I quote you on that?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 12:26:50 pm
Can I quote you on that?
Can I quote it back to you when you start to tell me what's in the "hearts and minds" of the Muslims who are admitted into Canada and who are born here? When you ask me if I speak Arabic, as if all Muslims are Arabs?

It's pretty amusing how pissy you get when you're challenged on your racist and bigoted views.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 04:43:37 pm
Can I quote it back to you when you start to tell me what's in the "hearts and minds" of the Muslims who are admitted into Canada and who are born here?

Since I always base them on polls and surveys ad not on "I met a Muslim and he was nice to me!" no, you can't.
Quote
It's pretty amusing how pissy you get when you're challenged on your racist and bigoted views.

It's really just frustration. I like to have intelligent conversations, yet so often the topic winds up being about me and not anything else because most of the people on the other side are too pig ignorant and immature, and too puffed up with self-righteous indignation to argue the point.

And I find it amusing, too, that most of their positions are clearly derived by a deep racism and sense of white superiority that causes them to 'protect' non-whites in this incredibly paternalistic fashion - the noble, self-appointed saviors of the poor brown people. Gah.  ::)
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 04:47:54 pm
. I like to have intelligent conversations, yet so often the topic winds up being about me and not anything else because most of the people on the other side are too pig ignorant and immature, and too puffed up with self-righteous indignation to argue the point.



Yep, you really did a lot to redeem yourself there.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:24:57 pm
Yep, you really did a lot to redeem yourself there.

Whatever on EARTH would make you think I have enough respect for you to want to 'redeem' myself?!  :o

Your name is already on my ignore list, as it was in MLW. If JMT ever figures out why it's not working that will the last I see of you, and you can go on having bland agreement with your fellow progressives.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 16, 2017, 11:00:29 am
Ok, I click on the 'new posts'... 3 threads seem to be about Muslims.... moderator?
 
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: bcsapper on September 16, 2017, 11:16:11 am
Ok, I click on the 'new posts'... 3 threads seem to be about Muslims.... moderator?

They do tend to make the news a lot, don't they?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: guest4 on September 16, 2017, 11:25:19 am
Ok, I click on the 'new posts'... 3 threads seem to be about Muslims.... moderator?

I concur.  Perhaps an all-purpose Muslim thread?  Any post which mentions Muslims, FGM, terror, Islam, Islamic, Sharia, etc. is automatically moved to the Muslim thread?   Can you set up some kind of automation for that?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 16, 2017, 11:32:13 am
Yeah.  One of the reasons I wanted to post here was that MLW became all-Muslims-all-the-time with really nothing new being said.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: bcsapper on September 16, 2017, 11:35:21 am
Yeah.  One of the reasons I wanted to post here was that MLW became all-Muslims-all-the-time with really nothing new being said.

Do you think there is a reason for that?  Other than the pat leftist one?

If Muslims make the news every day doing the same things, what can be said that is new?

The death penalty for blasphemy is primitive and barbaric every day of the week.

Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 16, 2017, 11:49:51 am
Do you think there is a reason for that?  Other than the pat leftist one?

If Muslims make the news every day doing the same things, what can be said that is new?

The death penalty for blasphemy is primitive and barbaric every day of the week.

Yes, probably many reasons.  Muslims 'making the news' also happens for many reasons.

Of course I think this is all overblown, but let's just talk about the fact that we have to have multiple threads on basically the same topic all the time ok ?
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: bcsapper on September 16, 2017, 11:55:22 am
Yes, probably many reasons.  Muslims 'making the news' also happens for many reasons.

Of course I think this is all overblown, but let's just talk about the fact that we have to have multiple threads on basically the same topic all the time ok ?

I suppose it's because thread starters like to start threads.  It's the same with many subjects.  The US, Trump, Climate Change, etc.  If people have a point to make about something that just happened, they might not want to dig up an old thread and post in that. 
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2017, 11:56:51 am
Ok, I click on the 'new posts'... 3 threads seem to be about Muslims.... moderator?

I believe this has happened because certain individuals insist on writing "Argus is a bad guy who did not love the Islams" in every thread SirJohn posts in.  Threads will keep drifting the same direction as long as those individuals keep doing that.

 -k
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: MH on September 16, 2017, 11:59:14 am
How about a 'SirJohn defends himself thread' then ?   ???
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 12:04:36 pm
Ok, I click on the 'new posts'... 3 threads seem to be about Muslims.... moderator?

I actually commented about this on the thread drift topic - about how somehow a topic on thread drift had drifted into a talk about Muslims - well, actually about ME and Muslims, but still... The gender thread drifted in much the same way. The one in Thread drift was actually drifted, er, by the moderator... post 238. Gender culture was cybercoma #127. This one also by cybercoma #37.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: JMT on September 16, 2017, 01:09:20 pm
I personally don't see a problem with letting the discussion flow.  If you want to talk about something else, feel free to start a new thread.

On the other hand, there is an all purpose Muslim thread - I started it.
Title: Re: Entitlement culture
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 02:09:56 pm
How about a 'SirJohn defends himself thread' then ?   ???

Sometimes it feels like every thread is about that.

And for those who will immediately jump in and say it's my fault I make two points.

1.  I am blunt and pull few punches in how I describe things. Many people aren't used to that and take great offense, mostly on behalf of others. Tough.
2.  As long as you don't make the topic about ME I will not make the topic about YOU. If you think my opinion is wrong, well, I'm entitled to it. If you think my facts are wrong, then post something that shows that. If you think I'm evil I think you're a moron. If you keep your mouth shut about your assessment of my morality I will keep my mouth shut about my assessment of your immaturity and intelligence.