Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Bodhavista on September 02, 2017, 03:05:18 pm


Title: Socialism
Post by: Bodhavista on September 02, 2017, 03:05:18 pm
"If I had a dollar for every time socialism worked I'd have zero dollars.
Coincidentally if socialism worked I'd also have zero dollars".

Nothing to see here folks. It doesn't work.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: TimG on September 02, 2017, 03:22:55 pm
"If I had a dollar for every time socialism worked I'd have zero dollars.
Coincidentally if socialism worked I'd also have zero dollars".
You need to define what you mean by "socialism". We can't have a free market society worth living in without some elements of "socialism". So the question is not socialism vs capitalism but how do we balance the conflicting requirements.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: the_squid on September 02, 2017, 09:51:20 pm
"If I had a dollar for every time socialism worked I'd have zero dollars.
Coincidentally if socialism worked I'd also have zero dollars".

Nothing to see here folks. It doesn't work.

What doesn't work? 
Unemployment insurance?
Maternity leave?
Environmental regulation?

Be specific about what doesn't work.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2017, 10:02:49 pm
What doesn't work? 
Unemployment insurance?
Maternity leave?
Environmental regulation?

Be specific about what doesn't work.

And may I add ocialized health care?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: JMT on September 02, 2017, 10:45:49 pm
And may I add ocialized health care?

First, you have to tell me what that is :P
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2017, 10:52:02 pm
First, you have to tell me what that is :P

It means everybody who needs them gets free glasses.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: JMT on September 02, 2017, 10:55:14 pm
Seriously though, if socialism has failed, so has capitalism.  There's a reason modern countries are set up as they are. 
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Omni on September 02, 2017, 11:19:24 pm
Seriously though, if socialism has failed, so has capitalism.  There's a reason modern countries are set up as they are.

I like the mix we have in Canada. Such things as health, education and welfare should not be set up as "for profit" corporations. When it comes to making and selling widgets, let the best man win.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on September 03, 2017, 10:16:27 am
But you can't negate the potential for improvement using private services.  Huge parts of our systems use private services in strategic ways.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: JMT on September 03, 2017, 12:42:19 pm
But you can't negate the potential for improvement using private services.  Huge parts of our systems use private services in strategic ways.

Private delivery with socialized payment, so...
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: BC_cheque on September 04, 2017, 02:35:49 pm
But you can't negate the potential for improvement using private services.  Huge parts of our systems use private services in strategic ways.

Likewise, there is also huge potential for improving public services.  Sure.

But fundamentally, I agree with Omni that things like healthcare and education should remain public.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on September 04, 2017, 07:58:06 pm
They will remain single-payer but private firms operate to help these initiatives succeed.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: SirJohn on September 07, 2017, 08:38:17 pm
They will remain single-payer but private firms operate to help these initiatives succeed.

Doesn't work. By way of example, feeling sick at 11 at night? Better go to the hospital. There are no private clinics open. Why? Because to entice doctors and nurses to work in the evening or overnight hours you need to pay them higher fees. The government refuses to do that, so no private clinics operate after hours. Want a doctor at home? Sorry, that would require extra fees, which the government won't allow. If you can't make it to a hospital best call an ambulance.

All European countries allow added fees for extra services, for-fee hospitals, clinics, etc. The result is a better system than we have here.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on September 07, 2017, 08:42:57 pm
Doesn't work. By way of example, feeling sick at 11 at night? Better go to the hospital. There are no private clinics open. Why? Because to entice doctors and nurses to work in the evening or overnight hours you need to pay them higher fees. The government refuses to do that, so no private clinics operate after hours. Want a doctor at home? Sorry, that would require extra fees, which the government won't allow. If you can't make it to a hospital best call an ambulance.

All European countries allow added fees for extra services, for-fee hospitals, clinics, etc. The result is a better system than we have here.

I'm not advancing some new proposal.  I'm describing how things work today.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: SirJohn on September 07, 2017, 09:22:01 pm
I'm not advancing some new proposal.  I'm describing how things work today.

Or don't work. I don't get why so many people seem to feel that the Europeans must be evil capitalist scum who don't care if poor people die. Their systems actually work better than ours.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 12, 2017, 01:27:47 am
What amuses me is the increasing number of American liberals who use the incredibly silly term "Democratic Socialism".
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on September 12, 2017, 09:07:14 am
What amuses me is the increasing number of American liberals who use the incredibly silly term "Democratic Socialism".

I'm assuming that this language is used to mark distance between Socialism as practiced in the USSR.  There is such a thing as Democratic Socialism, although it's a qualitative spectrum between Democratic Socialism, and Democratic Liberalism.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: SirJohn on September 12, 2017, 12:11:54 pm
What amuses me is the increasing number of American liberals who use the incredibly silly term "Democratic Socialism".

Are they socialists? Or are they just slightly more liberal than usual?
Bernie was an avowed Socialist, but not really. His schtick seemed to be a page borrowed from Trudeau's playbook: Offer them whatever they want, without regard to what it costs or whether I can do it.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: cybercoma on September 12, 2017, 09:42:44 pm
There's social democrats, democratic socialists, socialists, communists, then Marxist-Leninists. These are all different things.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 12, 2017, 10:06:08 pm
You need to define what you mean by "socialism". We can't have a free market society worth living in without some elements of "socialism". So the question is not socialism vs capitalism but how do we balance the conflicting requirements.

This.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: wilber on September 13, 2017, 05:05:18 pm
At what point does one become a socialist? At what point does one become a capitalist? I dunno, depends on who you ask I guess.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 13, 2017, 08:06:14 pm
At what point does one become a socialist? At what point does one become a capitalist? I dunno, depends on who you ask I guess.

Yeah it's weird.  There's a very broad range for each.  Unless you're a **** laissez faire capitalist or a commie, you're very probably a mix of both.  That's why broad ideological generations in economics is dumb.  "Markets are good, government is bad" & vice versa is overly simplistic & naive.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on September 14, 2017, 05:49:01 am
Yeah it's weird.  There's a very broad range for each.  Unless you're a **** laissez faire capitalist or a commie, you're very probably a mix of both.  That's why broad ideological generations in economics is dumb.  "Markets are good, government is bad" & vice versa is overly simplistic & naive.

That.

On my Facebook feed, a centrist Conservative has become the defacto person whose wall is used for sober political discussion.  His mantra is "we basically agree on what kind of government we want, it's a matter of where we negotiate to put the financial sliders"
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on October 02, 2018, 04:57:06 pm
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ev8gyz/its-no-accident-americans-are-still-broke-in-a-booming-economy

This is from July but still seems appropriate.  The next crash is going to hurt bad...
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 04, 2018, 07:00:04 pm
If you're a worker and think giant corporations make huge profits you're not sharing in with this booming economy, then there's this thing called the stock market where you can buy small pieces of these giant corporations and share in all the profits they do.  If you bought an ETF into the US S&P 500 5 years ago you would have doubled your money.

Most people are too stupid though.  Instead of buying an old used car (cars are a horrible investment) and buying an ETF or GIC with the money they save, they go buy ie: a car they can't really afford, which means wealth-sucking car payments every month so you can look cool.  I don't know how many people I know who make very modest salaries but drive a Mercedes or Audi etc.  TFSAs and RRSPs are there but many people don't use them.  But they'll use one of the big 5 banks, which give you horrible interest, compared to an online bank that can give you up to 2% interest on your savings...which people don't have anyways because they're maxing out their credit cards to go travel once or twice a year, which my parents never ever did when i was growing up but they did end up paying off their mortgage quite quickly.

Many Canadians are taking advantage of this hot market though, because housing prices have skyrocketed, meaning anyone owning a home in the last 5-10 yrs in a decent market, especially the "hardest places to live" like Vancity and TO has made a ****-ton of money.  As for young people, well, interest rates have been ridiculously low the last 10 years, so what's your excuse?
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: MH on October 04, 2018, 07:08:48 pm
If you're a worker and think giant corporations make huge profits you're not sharing in with this booming economy, then there's this thing called the stock market where you can buy small pieces of these giant corporations and share in all the profits they do.  If you bought an ETF into the US S&P 500 5 years ago you would have doubled your money.

Good advice, Monopoly man.  How many houses should I buy for Park Place ?

Quote
Most people are too stupid though.  Instead of buying an old used car (cars are a horrible investment) and buying an ETF or GIC with the money they save, they go buy ie: a car they can't really afford, which means wealth-sucking car payments every month so you can look cool.  I don't know how many people I know who make very modest salaries but drive a Mercedes or Audi etc.  TFSAs and RRSPs are there but many people don't use them.  But they'll use one of the big 5 banks, which give you horrible interest, compared to an online bank that can give you up to 2% interest on your savings...which people don't have anyways because they're maxing out their credit cards to go travel once or twice a year, which my parents never ever did when i was growing up but they did end up paying off their mortgage quite quickly.

Most people are stupid, so they shouldn't have the choice to trade away their health or basic rights for bad decisions.

Quote
Many Canadians are taking advantage of this hot market though, because housing prices have skyrocketed, meaning anyone owning a home in the last 5-10 yrs in a decent market, especially the "hardest places to live" like Vancity and TO has made a ****-ton of money.  As for young people, well, interest rates have been ridiculously low the last 10 years, so what's your excuse?

Let's see.  I put my young wife through 5 years of University, survived my entire industry being outsourced and paid tens of thousands for IVF to have a kid.

Money well spent.  How are these Toronto millionaires going to cash out, exactly ?  Unless they move to Elliot Lake.
Title: Re: Socialism
Post by: ?Impact on October 04, 2018, 07:26:46 pm
made a ****-ton of money

You don't make a cent until you sell, and if you have to buy into the same market you generally end up behind.