Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: JMT on July 12, 2017, 09:53:41 pm


Title: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 12, 2017, 09:53:41 pm
For the record... this was about whether one could have a nuanced take on the issue of a celebrated sniper.

Also for the record - that doesn't matter here (just to be clear on that, not trying to single you out).
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 10:44:58 am
Also for the record - that doesn't matter here (just to be clear on that, not trying to single you out).

I don't care if you don't care about thread drift but do you care if every thread drifts to 3 topics ?

If not, then you prefer a forum of **** and you shall have it.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: JMT on July 13, 2017, 11:13:09 am
I don't care if you don't care about thread drift but do you care if every thread drifts to 3 topics ?

If not, then you prefer a forum of **** and you shall have it.

I prefer to let conversations flow.  You're a great contributor here.  I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 11:32:42 am
  I really appreciate it.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zb4AAOSweW5U5U--/s-l300.jpg)
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: JMT on July 13, 2017, 11:50:27 am
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zb4AAOSweW5U5U--/s-l300.jpg)

:(
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: JMT on July 13, 2017, 11:50:58 am
I'm being serious - I really do appreciate your contribution to this forum.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 02:28:30 pm
I'm being serious - I really do appreciate your contribution to this forum.

?

Clearly you haven't opened my invoice yet.

Look.  I love to post... you give me a home for posting on topics that are not "TRUMP IS GOOD/BAD" "MUZZIES ARE GOOD/BAD" "9/11 WAS BUSH/BINLADEN"



Or... our morning prayer posts...


So this is a symbiotic relationship.  I love all of your brains until the day when we finally start pissing each other off and I follow kimmy the next forum.

Thanks for the kind words.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 04:09:53 pm
I'm being serious - I really do appreciate your contribution to this forum.

How about my contributions?
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 04:55:54 pm
How about my contributions?

Don't take it personally...

I am voluminous.  I post like I talk, ie too much.

Work has clicked down a few gears onto the easy track, as has home life so I get very chatty on here...
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: JMT on July 13, 2017, 04:58:43 pm
How about my contributions?

I value the contributions of every member.  I especially value those if MH because he doesn't speak so freely elsewhere.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 05:03:22 pm
I value the contributions of every member.  I especially value those if MH because he doesn't speak so freely elsewhere.

I speak my mind and follow the rules of every house I'm invited to.

There is a lot I like about MLW but I am just bored with the redundant topics and lack of exploratory dialogue.  There is nothing to learn, but I'm not above going back and poking taxme in the eye over his ridiculousness.  (specifically I am not a Semite/Zionist Media is to Blame/I love Zionist Ezra Levant's website)

Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 13, 2017, 09:28:28 pm
I don't care if you don't care about thread drift but do you care if every thread drifts to 3 topics ?

If not, then you prefer a forum of **** and you shall have it.

speaking of a forum of ****...
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 10:52:28 pm
I speak my mind and follow the rules of every house I'm invited to.

There is a lot I like about MLW but I am just bored with the redundant topics and lack of exploratory dialogue.  There is nothing to learn, but I'm not above going back and poking taxme in the eye over his ridiculousness.  (specifically I am not a Semite/Zionist Media is to Blame/I love Zionist Ezra Levant's website)
Going back? You're not over there now?
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 14, 2017, 12:57:56 am
I speak my mind and follow the rules of every house I'm invited to.

There is a lot I like about MLW but I am just bored with the redundant topics and lack of exploratory dialogue.  There is nothing to learn, but I'm not above going back and poking taxme in the eye over his ridiculousness.  (specifically I am not a Semite/Zionist Media is to Blame/I love Zionist Ezra Levant's website)

You should go check it out, it's been better since the moderation has pretty much disappeared.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 06:23:06 am
Going back? You're not over there now?

I go back there every day.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 06:23:54 am
You should go check it out, it's been better since the moderation has pretty much disappeared.

Clearly you are paying more attention over here, since I have posted there regularly though not as frequently. 
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: SirJohn on July 14, 2017, 03:59:15 pm
I don't care if you don't care about thread drift but do you care if every thread drifts to 3 topics ?

If not, then you prefer a forum of **** and you shall have it.

But every topic DOESN'T drift to three topics, and never did elsewhere either. You once accused me of starting multiple threads on Islam and then couldn't produce anything I'd started over the previous year.

Further, if people want to talk about something, why shouldn't they? Just because you don't want to talk about it shouldn't stop others. Just don't participate on that topic. Is that so hard? There are ridiculous conspiracy topics at MLW and I don't go near them, having zero interest.

I think when a topic is suppressed in the popular media, and when you can be subjected to harsh punishments for talking about it in public, people gravitate towards the internet to talk about it anonymously. That is the case with the clear discomfort about Canada's immigration policies, and the flood of newcomers, especially Muslims. The fact government and media do nothing but issue bland, soothing feel-good statements doesn't help.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 14, 2017, 06:16:35 pm
Quote
If not, then you prefer a forum of **** and you shall have it.

Have you looked at the forum you moderate lately....?   Those in glass houses.... 

Jmt has been doing a fine job thus far.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 06:30:06 pm
Have you looked at the forum you moderate lately....?   Those in glass houses.... 
 

I live in two houses.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 06:31:13 pm

1) Further, if people want to talk about something, why shouldn't they?
2) Just because you don't want to talk about it shouldn't stop others. Just don't participate on that topic. Is that so hard? 
1) Because it's boring
2) Yes
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: SirJohn on July 14, 2017, 08:30:29 pm
Have you looked at the forum you moderate lately....?   Those in glass houses.... 

Jmt has been doing a fine job thus far.

I agree. MLW was basically wrecked by over moderation. It drove lots of people away, and made conversations much more difficult. Not only was the moderation far too enthusiastic (and arrogant) but it was and remains unpredictable and inconsistent.

Now there is a time and a place to do something about thread drift. I admit that. But you can handle that administratively. If there are a couple of people jabbering on about something completely extraneous to the topic while others are trying to discuss the topic you split the damned thread. And if it's just some **** who is trolling and keeps trying to pull things off-topic you just delete everything they post and tell them to shut up.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 09:25:04 pm
I agree. MLW was basically wrecked by over moderation. 

Wrecked ?  The traffic is certainly still there.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 14, 2017, 10:12:30 pm
MLW is a bunch of rabid right wing nuts, trolls and a few conspiracy theorist crazies.   And now that insults are allowed the place is even worse...  I didn't think it could get worse, but it has.

Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 11:17:25 am
Wrecked ?  The traffic is certainly still there.

The number of posts, and the number of individuals posting is FAR lower than it was in the past.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 11:21:37 am
MLW is a bunch of rabid right wing nuts, trolls and a few conspiracy theorist crazies.   And now that insults are allowed the place is even worse...  I didn't think it could get worse, but it has.

You keep saying that, but there are more ultra Left 'wing nuts' than there are right wing nuts. I only have 2 idiots of the right in my ignore list, vs 3 conspiracy loonies and three ultra left 'wing nuts'. And all the conspiracy loonies are far left as well (eyeball, hot enough. Hernanday)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 15, 2017, 11:40:17 am
Complaining about moderation at MLW is like oxygen.

People complain about over-moderation and under-moderation equally.  That means it's just right.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 12:06:03 pm
Complaining about moderation at MLW is like oxygen.

People complain about over-moderation and under-moderation equally.  That means it's just right.

No, it doesn't. There were few complaints when Greg was doing it because Greg was more laid back. At another site I post to there is seeming no moderation, though I know there are moderators. They're just very low key and I've never seen a complaint about them.

When all is said and done are there are a lot less people who want to discuss politics than ten or twelve years ago? If not, then why are there are a lot less posters to MLW?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 15, 2017, 04:33:06 pm
No, it doesn't. There were few complaints when Greg was doing it because Greg was more laid back. At another site I post to there is seeming no moderation, though I know there are moderators. They're just very low key and I've never seen a complaint about them.

When all is said and done are there are a lot less people who want to discuss politics than ten or twelve years ago? If not, then why are there are a lot less posters to MLW?

Than 12 years ago ?  You're talking a long time ago, bud.  I don't know.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 08:04:27 pm
Than 12 years ago ?  You're talking a long time ago, bud.  I don't know.

I've been there a long time. That's why I can remember better days. Anyway, look at all the posts here. The only reason they're posting here is because they feel less constrained here than they do there. Well, and the crazies aren't here.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 08:43:37 pm
I've been there a long time. That's why I can remember better days. Anyway, look at all the posts here. The only reason they're posting here is because they feel less constrained here than they do there. Well, and the crazies aren't here.

My reason for preferrring posting here is because the posters don't have a habit of starting topics or arguments with "Leftists...." followed by an insult or nasty generalization etc.  That may change of course, but I have enjoyed not having to read that. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 15, 2017, 08:49:14 pm
I've been there a long time. That's why I can remember better days. Anyway, look at all the posts here. The only reason they're posting here is because they feel less constrained here than they do there. Well, and the crazies aren't here.

I have been there 14 years.

I won't get any good comments on some of the topics if I post there. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 16, 2017, 09:27:23 am
I have been there 14 years.

I won't get any good comments on some of the topics if I post there.

Well, you are something of an elitist... so only special people would contribute appropriately.  :D

A couple of weeks ago I posted something to can.politics in the late afternoon. When I next visited the site the next day there had been no posts since I had last posted. In the old days there predictably would have been scores of new posts. So traffic is way down. And a lot of the more discerning posters have left, not just because of the moderation but the proliferation of crazies (and the moderation which comes down on anyone who makes fun of them).
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 16, 2017, 04:16:24 pm
1) Well, you are something of an elitist... so only special people would contribute appropriately.  :D

2) A couple of weeks ago I posted something to can.politics in the late afternoon. When I next visited the site the next day there had been no posts since I had last posted. In the old days there predictably would have been scores of new posts. So traffic is way down. And a lot of the more discerning posters have left, not just because of the moderation but the proliferation of crazies (and the moderation which comes down on anyone who makes fun of them).

1) Hey - you're saying it, I can't deny it but in my defence: I'm talking about boring, repetitive topics.  That's not an elitist thing.  It's not accurate or fair to say that I only discuss things with people who agree with me.

2) The crazies are not just crazies but boring crazies.  There have been out-there posters in the past that I could find interesting.  But the 9/11 guy, the bible lady and all the pro-Trump nuts and Muslim haters are just dull, dull, dull for the most part.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on July 16, 2017, 09:02:46 pm
And a lot of the more discerning posters have left, not just because of the moderation but the proliferation of crazies (and the moderation which comes down on anyone who makes fun of them).

True, I left when I was the one who got shut down for calling out a troll, but you know what really did me in?  When Greg shut down the moderating thread and told everyone who doesn't like it to find another forum. 

The whole team seems so oblivious and uninterested in hearing about the grievances of the participants, it was disconcerting. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 16, 2017, 09:28:16 pm
That thread was ridiculous.  It went on forever, and people even trolled each other on the thread itself.

Greg probably had a bad day.  It didn't matter though because everything went back to the way it was.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 16, 2017, 09:43:36 pm
Months ago Greg promised me change, and wanted to have a conversation about the way things are and what should change.  I have yet to get a follow up message.

Michael, I don't think anyone is blaming you personally.  Things simply went south to the point where many of us didn't feel welcome anymore.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on July 16, 2017, 10:08:09 pm
Michael, I don't think anyone is blaming you personally.  Things simply went south to the point where many of us didn't feel welcome anymore.

Agreed. 

I mean I can see the other side of the argument too and how they want an egalitarian forum where everyone is treated with respect no matter how bat-**** crazy.  I also get why thread drifts were such a contentious issue even if I don't personally agree they were that big of a deal, but overall, it just became a bit much.

But at least now we have this hidden gem and MH even gets to be one of the appreciated participants so it's a win.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 16, 2017, 11:57:08 pm
Except when you create a forum where you can't call out the batshit crazy stuff for what it actually is, then that forum needs to burn.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 05:50:21 am
Months ago Greg promised me change, and wanted to have a conversation about the way things are and what should change.  I have yet to get a follow up message.

Michael, I don't think anyone is blaming you personally.  Things simply went south to the point where many of us didn't feel welcome anymore.

Greg is busy and he leaves the moderation to cover must of the duties.  That's how he does it.

I don't think anyone was blaming me personally.  I think it's overstating it if you think you weren't "welcome".  Clearly, everybody is "welcome".
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 05:51:15 am
Except when you create a forum where you can't call out the batshit crazy stuff for what it actually is, then that forum needs to burn.

You can call out the crazy, but you can't stop it.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 17, 2017, 07:35:47 am
Complaining about moderation at MLW is like oxygen.

People complain about over-moderation and under-moderation equally.  That means it's just right.

No, it means it's terrible.  Some aspects have been over-moderated like thread drift which was never a big problem to me for many years but for some reason became a pet project for the mods the last couple of years...and also the suspensions a few years ago, which drove off many users.  And some are under-moderated, like trolling.

Greg and Charles are arrogant fools who drove that site into the ground.  They don't give a crap about the opinions of the posters, even though they sometimes give lip service & "polls".  Charles treats everyone like dumb children who are far below his mighty maturity & intellect.  Like any politician in office too long, power corrupts.

It's Greg's board, he can control how the board is and isn't moderated, so ultimately it's his fault.

That place was run like a totalitarian dictatorship, this place is run more like a democracy.  Smallc actually gives a rat without an ego & a puffed out chest getting in the way.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 08:11:21 am
Some aspects have been over-moderated like thread drift which was never a big problem to me for many years but for some reason became a pet project for the mods the last couple of years...and also the suspensions a few years ago, which drove off many users.  And some are under-moderated, like trolling.

Thread Drift is something that the moderators have been given as a directive to keep the discussion in the lanes.  I don't see what is such a big deal about staying on topic, or opening a new thread if required frankly. 

Trolling is a hilarious topic because 1/2 the people want you to ban one set of people and the other 1/2 want you to ban the other set.

Quote
Greg and Charles are arrogant fools who drove that site into the ground.  They don't give a crap about the opinions of the posters, even though they sometimes give lip service & "polls".   

The site seems to still be quite active so I don't buy that argument.  They do care about the posters.

 
Quote

That place was run like a totalitarian dictatorship, this place is run more like a democracy.  Smallc actually gives a rat without an ego & a puffed out chest getting in the way.

The personal attributes of the moderators are what they are.  Moderators you LIKE aren't going to be necessarily more successful than ones you don't, though. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 17, 2017, 08:45:40 am
Trolling is a hilarious topic because 1/2 the people want you to ban one set of people and the other 1/2 want you to ban the other set.

Yes i realize that but you also have to realize that a left-wing troll will troll a right-winger far more often than a fellow lefty, and vice versa.  Yes i'm sure a fair amount of the troll reporting is just partisan bitterness, but i see trolling examples on the left & right where it's been consistent.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 09:50:11 am
... but i see trolling examples on the left & right where it's been consistent.

If people don't complain about their own side then it's going to look like a partisan issue.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 17, 2017, 10:08:29 am
If people don't complain about their own side then it's going to look like a partisan issue.

i agree.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 10:21:54 am
Greg is busy and he leaves the moderation to cover must of the duties.  That's how he does it.

I, quite frankly, call bullshit on that.  I'm busy too.  I run a business with about $2M in sales 5 days a week, and usually have some part in it every day.  We're all busy.  He just doesn't want to be there.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 10:25:02 am
Also, I deleted a few posts from this thread.  Be nice to eachother.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 17, 2017, 11:49:17 am
True, I left when I was the one who got shut down for calling out a troll,

I got a warning point - from MH, as a matter of fact - for telling a guy who repeatedly referenced white supremacist sites which he claimed were reliable, that this showed he had poor judgement. This is the frustrating part about the crazies. You can't call them out on their idiotic claims. You can't say their claims are stupid. You are expected to respectfully debate them. But as you are aware, you can't debate these people. They will concede nothing, however obvious, and continue to make absurd claims without regard to the legitimacy of their 'evidence'. The Turkish chick was another such poster, thankfully gone. Charles particularly seemed to be protective of her, and I gave up after a few tries and just put her on my ignore list.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 12:44:54 pm
I, quite frankly, call bullshit on that.  I'm busy too.  I run a business with about $2M in sales 5 days a week, and usually have some part in it every day.  We're all busy.  He just doesn't want to be there.

I think we're saying the same thing, ie. people prioritize things.  The revenue from a free online forum probably doesn't warrant much time, IMO.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 12:45:31 pm
Also, I deleted a few posts from this thread.  Be nice to eachother.

Posts get DELETED here ??? Cooooool...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 12:46:02 pm
Do I get notified if my post gets deleted ?  Asking for a fiend...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 12:47:45 pm
I got a warning point - from MH, as a matter of fact - for telling a guy who repeatedly referenced white supremacist sites which he claimed were reliable, that this showed he had poor judgement. This is the frustrating part about the crazies. You can't call them out on their idiotic claims. You can't say their claims are stupid. You are expected to respectfully debate them. But as you are aware, you can't debate these people.

Yes, because you went after the person not the argument.

I agree that it's frustrating but I can't make up rules.  For that matter, there seems to be more touchiness about certain things than others, eg. disparaging sources.  Not sure why.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 01:46:03 pm
Posts get DELETED here ??? Cooooool...

Hypocrisy needs company.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 01:46:40 pm
Do I get notified if my post gets deleted ?  Asking for a fiend...

I just notified everyone - in this very thread :).
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 02:21:39 pm
I just notified everyone - in this very thread :).

So I should consider myself warned.... if I post an eloquent 20 page post with F*** YOU Argus at the end of it, it could just be deleted.  Got it. ;)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 03:24:04 pm
So I should consider myself warned.... if I post an eloquent 20 page post with F*** YOU Argus at the end of it, it could just be deleted.  Got it. ;)

In that case, only the **** you Argus would be deleted. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 17, 2017, 03:24:56 pm
For the record - you swore, I didn't.

Anyway Argus isn't Argus here I think he's John...
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: waldo on July 18, 2017, 09:50:22 am
I prefer to let conversations flow.

which will result in a like shytehole that MLW became... where one could research a topic for hours and put together a most detailed/lengthy post... only to have it PURPOSELY buried by the usual suspects who would PURPOSELY proceed to introduce/enable, quite literally, pages of off-topic bullshyte. Of course, when I would take objection to this PURPOSEFUL tactic... and move to repeat a prior buried post, the MLW moderating clown-show, would typically throw warning fits for repeating a prior post.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 18, 2017, 09:59:52 am
Trolling is a hilarious topic because 1/2 the people want you to ban one set of people and the other 1/2 want you to ban the other set.

that's rich! Concerned MLW posters simply wanted a precise definition of trolling defined... and properly and CONSISTENTLY enforced. Instead, that azzholeChas played word/mind games in purposely refusing to properly define the MLW Board's definition of trolling... and would purposely inflame a concerned and expressed membership by refusing to enforce the trolling offenses of the most egregious trolling offenders. I'm quite sure the ChasMan relished the forced drama he created - it's always good for ratings - up to the point contributing membership walks given all the forced MLWModeratingDrama.
Title: Re: Re: Editorial-- sniper shot is no cause for celebration.
Post by: JMT on July 18, 2017, 10:16:15 am
which will result in a like shytehole that MLW became...

I take great pride in my ability to be a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 18, 2017, 01:58:03 pm
1. that's rich! Concerned MLW posters simply wanted a precise definition of trolling defined...
2. and properly and CONSISTENTLY enforced.
3. Instead, that azzholeChas played word/mind games in purposely refusing to properly define the MLW Board's definition of trolling... and would purposely inflame a concerned and expressed membership by refusing to enforce the trolling offenses of the most egregious trolling offenders. I'm quite sure the ChasMan relished the forced drama he created - it's always good for ratings - up to the point contributing membership walks given all the forced MLWModeratingDrama.
1. That was provided, I believe.
2. Not possible, given that humans must enforce the rules and humans can't agree on things 100%.
3. Very unkind to insult and throw under the bus someone who endured you and catered to you for many years. 

MLW will endure...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 19, 2017, 12:39:07 am
1. That was provided, I believe.
2. Not possible, given that humans must enforce the rules and humans can't agree on things 100%.
3. Very unkind to insult and throw under the bus someone who endured you and catered to you for many years. 

MLW will endure...

you sir, you believe... in make believe! Any precise and prevailing definition on MLW trolling should be in the board rules for reference. Instead MLW membership was forever toyed with by ChasMan and his simpleton play that trolling was a subjective interpretation --- his undeclared subjective whim and his mystery determination. Of course, you were, and I expect still are, a most willing and loyal lapper; one who never had the balls to actually question/challenge his bullshyte.

thanks for the outright genuine laugh - to suggest the ChasMan "catered to and endured" me... that sir, that showcases your true sycophantic self! For you to suggest, "MLW will endure", is you completely dismissing the membership loss and the quality of those long-standing contributing members who ChasMan drove away. It's quite heartening to read thread comments here, including your own, describing the present MLW membership makeup and decline. Well done - mission accomplished, hey!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 19, 2017, 06:36:02 am
you sir, you believe... in make believe! Any precise and prevailing definition on MLW trolling should be in the board rules for reference.

It took 5 seconds to find it:
" We define "trolling" as a message that serves no constructive purpose and is likely to cause offence or arguments. "

Quote
Instead MLW membership was forever toyed with by ChasMan and his simpleton play that trolling was a subjective interpretation --- his undeclared subjective whim and his mystery determination.

Of course it's subjective.

Quote
Of course, you were, and I expect still are, a most willing and loyal lapper; one who never had the balls to actually question/challenge his bullshyte.

Discussion of the application of policies most definitely happens between the moderators.  Why would you think otherwise ?

Quote
thanks for the outright genuine laugh - to suggest the ChasMan "catered to and endured" me... that sir, that showcases your true sycophantic self!

You have always been an overly demanding poster, IMO.  That said, your presence was appreciated by all of us which is why we put the extra effort into dealing with you.  And, as expected, you are still unsatisfied.  It's a testimonial to your strong personality and character, and as such I accept it.

Quote
For you to suggest, "MLW will endure", is you completely dismissing the membership loss and the quality of those long-standing contributing members who ChasMan drove away.

I don't see how.  We lost a lot of good posters, and the team was never happy when that happened.  But as I said, the site continues.

Quote
It's quite heartening to read thread comments here, including your own, describing the present MLW membership makeup and decline. Well done - mission accomplished, hey!

Hey - it may be a cycle.  It may reflect the politics of our day.  I personally don't like the 3 prevailing themes that dominate, especially the mud puddle "I hate Muslims" arguments, but there isn't a rule that sends kooks away without reason.  It's a big tent that welcomes anyone who has something to add.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on July 19, 2017, 08:12:11 am
I think it's overstating it if you think you weren't "welcome".  Clearly, everybody is "welcome".
Clearly.

I'm glad you put welcome in quotes to show irony.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 19, 2017, 08:39:24 am
Clearly.

I'm glad you put welcome in quotes to show irony.

Hahahaha.  Well, I will say something that is likely controversial, now, which I haven't said before and comes with experience including recent experience.

You can have an open board, or a good board.  You can also have both but whenever a decision comes between two guiding principles you have to pick one over the other.  I would pick a 'good' board and as such I would discourage topics that are not interesting to me.

What that means, specifically, doesn't matter.  I realize that it makes me a censor, or whatever, but if it were up to me conspiracy theories and the like would be gone.  Yes, I am evil, but my experience tells me that **** thinking perpetuates itself and makes for a repository for garbage.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on July 19, 2017, 10:26:09 am
MH, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this issue with everyone here.  You really don't need to.

I think the issue I'm hearing often isn't about good board vs. open board though.  It's about consistency in moderation, and also style.  When you're not consistent in enforcing the rules, it does feel personal. 

And I know it gets difficult dealing with our complaints all the time, but nobody is forcing you to be moderators.   

It's like working in a call-centre, sure it sucks, but no matter how kooky the person is being at the other end of the line, you still need to keep it cool you can't start yelling back at the person.  Otherwise you're in the wrong position for the task.

And I'm not using 'you' as in you personally.  I mean you as in the moderation team. 

There is just no justification for talking down to posters no matter how crazy they are and a little consistency would help a long way in making sure things aren't taken personally.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 19, 2017, 10:47:04 am
I don't take it personally, nor do I take responsibility for the decisions or demeanour of others.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on July 19, 2017, 02:05:41 pm
I'm astonished at how much a certain conspiracy theorist gets away with over there.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 19, 2017, 02:52:33 pm
In terms of insults ?  I didn't think HE was that bad.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on July 19, 2017, 03:01:58 pm
Hmmm....I guess to each his own.
It just seems like no matter what the topic of the thread is, he busts in with nothing substantive to say except how we're all dishonest, war-mongerers, baby killing, idiots who refuse to accept his vastly superior intellect.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 19, 2017, 03:13:33 pm
...he busts in with nothing substantive to say except how we're all dishonest, war-mongerers, baby killing, idiots who refuse to accept his vastly superior intellect.

Actually he said that the poster supports someone who does these things.  That mitigates the insult in two ways:

-it talks about the person's posts and opinions, not about the poster
-it's a substantive argument about American policies, on a certain level

I guarantee you it's an edge case.  It is designed to inflame, but we also hear "you support your Sharia brothers" etc.  Don't know if I would moderate it.

Same ****.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on July 19, 2017, 03:38:15 pm
Quote
Same ****.

Sometimes true.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 20, 2017, 12:55:29 am
It took 5 seconds to find it:
" We define "trolling" as a message that serves no constructive purpose and is likely to cause offence or arguments. "

oh snap! You got me... uhhh... wait now - that useless piece of nothingness was used many times over as a challenging start point for ChasMan to elaborate upon, particularly in terms of his related determining criteria, his subjective whim, his lack of consistency in applying interpretation and enforcement, his banal and tripe instruction to "just report and ignore", etc..

Of course it's subjective.

cop out extraordinaire! That ole tried-n-true, fall-back nugget simply allowed ChasMan and his crew to avoid accountability and responsibility for the shyte-house MLW moderation. Membership attempts to understand MLW moderation... to hold the moderators to some semblance of actual interpretation/enforcement practice... to wrestle with the inconsistency of application... that... that became the foundation of the MLW moderation drama that ChasMan so relished.

Discussion of the application of policies most definitely happens between the moderators.  Why would you think otherwise ?

because nothing ever changed. Rather - it only ever got worse. You seem like quite the lil' chatter-box here... certainly begs the question why you sought to become miniChasMan while giving up your posting. Clearly you accomplished didly squat in your presumed/postured policy application discussions - ChasManRules, don't ya know.

You have always been an overly demanding poster, IMO.  That said, your presence was appreciated by all of us which is why we put the extra effort into dealing with you.  And, as expected, you are still unsatisfied.  It's a testimonial to your strong personality and character, and as such I accept it.

go shine on someone else. If by "overly demanding" you mean questioning the bullshyte MLW moderation... guilty as charged. Thread after thread, literally hundreds of posts from many, many disgruntled members, members chucking it in and walking away from MLW - all so "overly demanding", hey!  :)

I don't see how.  We lost a lot of good posters, and the team was never happy when that happened.  But as I said, the site continues.

"the team"!!! Oh my - how droll. If there was your stated unhappiness, why the phack didn't anything ever change... for the better? Such a high-bar MLW sets for itself: "the site continues"!

Hey - it may be a cycle.  It may reflect the politics of our day.  I personally don't like the 3 prevailing themes that dominate, especially the mud puddle "I hate Muslims" arguments, but there isn't a rule that sends kooks away without reason.  It's a big tent that welcomes anyone who has something to add.

as I've stated in the past - in that very MLW shytehole: you get the board you ask for, you get the board you deserve.

you're welcome - carry on.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 20, 2017, 06:38:13 am
oh snap! You got me... uhhh... wait now - that useless piece of nothingness was used many times over as a challenging start point for ChasMan to elaborate upon, particularly in terms of his related determining criteria, his subjective whim, his lack of consistency in applying interpretation and enforcement, his banal and tripe instruction to "just report and ignore", etc..

I don't 'got you'.  I am not trying to fight with you.  You said this:

"Any precise and prevailing definition on MLW trolling should be in the board rules for reference. "

I thought there was indeed a definition, so I went over there and found one.  And then I posted it.  And you came back with the retort above.

We are now on the first steps of an arc that I now remember.  It goes like this:

1. You say something.
2. I explain it.
3. You don't acknowledge the explanation, and come up with some more snark.
4. Go to 1.

I now remember many such conversations, that I just had to eventually not respond to because they went nowhere.  Nobody owes you an explanation.  And if you're never going to be satisfied anyway, why should I try to give you one ?  And why would you keep the conversation going unless you're just doing a meta-troll ?  There's no end to it.

Quote
cop out extraordinaire! That ole tried-n-true, fall-back nugget simply allowed ChasMan and his crew to avoid accountability and responsibility for the shyte-house MLW moderation. Membership attempts to understand MLW moderation... to hold the moderators to some semblance of actual interpretation/enforcement practice... to wrestle with the inconsistency of application... that... that became the foundation of the MLW moderation drama that ChasMan so relished.

Firstly, there is this concept called "boil the ocean".  It refers to tasks that are too arduous to warrant their undertaking.  One can't come up with an exhaustive lists of behaviours that would be considered trolling.  Any list you could come up with, that listed specific examples, would be very long and would always be incomplete.  And even then, the subjective decision of a moderator would still be required.

You didn't like the decisions of the moderators, that is clear.  But sometimes you have to accept that moderators just don't agree with you.

Quote
because nothing ever changed. Rather - it only ever got worse. You seem like quite the lil' chatter-box here... certainly begs the question why you sought to become miniChasMan while giving up your posting. Clearly you accomplished didly squat in your presumed/postured policy application discussions - ChasManRules, don't ya know.

Maybe so.  There was a lot of discussion, and a lot of decisions - I can't say how much influence I had overall.

Quote
go shine on someone else. If by "overly demanding" you mean questioning the bullshyte MLW moderation... guilty as charged. Thread after thread, literally hundreds of posts from many, many disgruntled members, members chucking it in and walking away from MLW - all so "overly demanding", hey!  :)

Yes.  This response is typical.  I respond to you, and the bar moves.  You say "there's no written rule", and I produce it, and you just come back with more.  This is how it is with you.

I think your presence there was much more valued than you realize, otherwise there would have been no response at all.

Quote
"the team"!!! Oh my - how droll. If there was your stated unhappiness, why the phack didn't anything ever change... for the better? Such a high-bar MLW sets for itself: "the site continues"!

Some changes happened.  I don't expect that you would understand that, or observe it, or that the result would satisfy you anyway.

Quote
as I've stated in the past - in that very MLW shytehole: you get the board you ask for, you get the board you deserve.

You can reflect on what that means for you - you don't have the board anymore at all... so...

Quote
you're welcome - carry on.

Right-O.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 20, 2017, 08:29:09 am
I don't 'got you'.  I am not trying to fight with you.  You said this:

"Any precise and prevailing definition on MLW trolling should be in the board rules for reference. "

I thought there was indeed a definition, so I went over there and found one.  And then I posted it.  And you came back with the retort above.

We are now on the first steps of an arc that I now remember.  It goes like this:

1. You say something.
2. I explain it.
3. You don't acknowledge the explanation, and come up with some more snark.
4. Go to 1.

I now remember many such conversations, that I just had to eventually not respond to because they went nowhere.  Nobody owes you an explanation.  And if you're never going to be satisfied anyway, why should I try to give you one ?  And why would you keep the conversation going unless you're just doing a meta-troll ?  There's no end to it.

ahhh, there it is --- classic MLW moderation on display! I respond to you and... I'm a meta-troll. Clearly you felt so emboldened coming back with that fluff-piece that exists within the MLW rules. As I said, it was oft referred to and was/is a piece of nothingness in the face of MLW's failed moderation. The, as you say, "arc" I remember is your explanations had no foundation when balanced against the way ChasMan metered out his MLW moderation drama. But ya, ya... your words also strike a recall with me - the "nobody owes you an explanation" was often pulled from the MLWmoderationQuiver and delivered to questioning members!  ;D

don't respond... or I'll label you a "meta-troll"!

Firstly, there is this concept called "boil the ocean".  It refers to tasks that are too arduous to warrant their undertaking.  One can't come up with an exhaustive lists of behaviours that would be considered trolling.  Any list you could come up with, that listed specific examples, would be very long and would always be incomplete.  And even then, the subjective decision of a moderator would still be required.

You didn't like the decisions of the moderators, that is clear.  But sometimes you have to accept that moderators just don't agree with you.

"don't agree... with... me"? With me? How dismissive you are of the dozens of other MLW members who kept the profile of failed MLW moderation going across the many, many threads that showcased just how unexplained and inconsistent MLW's forced ChasMan moderation drama was.

Yes.  This response is typical.  I respond to you, and the bar moves.  You say "there's no written rule", and I produce it, and you just come back with more.  This is how it is with you.

no - I purposely qualified my statement as, "precise and prevailing"... would you like me to quote it for you? As I've repeated now several times, that "definition" was often referred to in moderationDramaThreads as one needing attention given it's LACK of preciseness in the face of it NOT being representative of the prevailing shyte-house MLW moderation. But ya, your response is typical - you think you've responded... and you haven't actually done so in relation to what actually transpired; in this case, what I actually said. And, apparently, because I had the audacity to respond to your non-response, you label me a meta-troll and state I've moved the bar. Clearly, you're a purrrfect match-made for MLW moderation.

Some changes happened.  I don't expect that you would understand that, or observe it, or that the result would satisfy you anyway.

really - must be since my time, hey! Care to relate said changes... inquiring unsatisfied minds need to know just how, as you stated, "the site continues"!

You can reflect on what that means for you - you don't have the board anymore at all... so...

my choice, right? And, again... if you dare to respond to me, I'll call you a, as you just did to me, meta-troll!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 20, 2017, 09:08:27 am
Well, what can I say.  Your complaints are broad and pervasive.  I doubt you would be any more satisfied with the situation if I tried to clarify further.

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

Cheers, Waldo.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 20, 2017, 10:14:41 am
I think the issue I'm hearing often isn't about good board vs. open board though.  It's about consistency in moderation, and also style.  When you're not consistent in enforcing the rules, it does feel personal. 

I would expand on that. As someone who was there a long time, when Greg moderated, if he didn't like what you wrote he would PM you and tell you what was wrong and ask (politely) for you to change it. Over the last several years it's instead been BAM! "You wrote garbage and are suspended for a week! Question me and I'll make it two! Want three!? Just try me!"

Put that together with a lack of consistency in moderation and you have a very frustrating and irritating experience. I did not find MH any improvement on Charles, btw, except for being more polite in PMs (when he answered). I actually got suspended and got warning points a lot more after he joined the moderation team than prior to that.

They have moderated (no pun intended) this over the past some months, however. Charles, in particular, seems to have moderated (no pun intended) over the last year. At least with me.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 20, 2017, 10:17:49 am
ahhh, there it is --- classic MLW moderation on display! I respond to you and... I'm a meta-troll.

You acted like a hyper aggressive blowhard, more often than not. It is possible to discuss something without sneering at the person you're discussing it with, you know.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 20, 2017, 11:03:20 am
You acted like a hyper aggressive blowhard, more often than not. It is possible to discuss something without sneering at the person you're discussing it with, you know.

still Argus? Still? You're still smartin from all the waldoWhoopins you took? Still? From my perspective, your whinySelf was always worth the price of admission! I particularly relished the opportunities you took to bask in all your right/alt-wing puffery! But I digress...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on July 20, 2017, 11:30:56 am
still Argus? Still? You're still smartin from all the waldoWhoopins you took? Still? From my perspective, your whinySelf was always worth the price of admission! I particularly relished the opportunities you took to bask in all your right/alt-wing puffery! But I digress...

Whatever you say, Mister Trump.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on July 20, 2017, 03:45:41 pm
I'll only say this once and leave it at that. MLW won't run smoothly as long as the primary moderator is a conspiracy-loving anarchist. The position doesn't suit his disposition and is the primary reason there are some many dissatisfied posters. His moderation is not up for discussion over there because Greg trusts him and likes the job he's doing, so it will not ever change. End of story. I'm quite alright with being banned.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest18 on July 24, 2017, 07:41:26 pm
When my grandchildren ask me if I fought in the great Twitter wars of the late teens, I would feel a little ashamed if I said I did but only in a safe place under moderation.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: kimmy on July 26, 2017, 12:26:37 am
For me, I don't care if a topic organically evolves from one thing to another.

But it drives me nuts that some individuals have to steer each and every topic to their own special axe for grinding.

Dog-On-Porch's one man crusade against Islam comes to mind as a prominent example. Look, ****-head, people get to talk about baseball or Game of Thrones without the Battle of Vienna being brought into it.

 -k
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on July 26, 2017, 01:22:43 am
I'll only say this once and leave it at that. MLW won't run smoothly as long as the primary moderator is a conspiracy-loving anarchist. The position doesn't suit his disposition and is the primary reason there are some many dissatisfied posters. His moderation is not up for discussion over there because Greg trusts him and likes the job he's doing, so it will not ever change. End of story. I'm quite alright with being banned.

it appears the absentee landlord could care less about failed MLW moderation - but surely all that free/exhaustive so-called ChasMan "moderation" is an unfair labour practice!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: poochy on July 26, 2017, 04:19:16 pm
Yes, because you went after the person not the argument.

I agree that it's frustrating but I can't make up rules.  For that matter, there seems to be more touchiness about certain things than others, eg. disparaging sources.  Not sure why.

Often the person is the argument, if you honestly don't understand or are unwilling to deal with that you shouldn't be running or moderating a forum.  Some people simply need to be ignored, and no, that doesn't mean letting them spam a forum with ridiculous nonsense and telling everyone else to play nice.  The real problem is, you, and the others over there, are just not very good at it.  Maybe it's the 'everyone gets a ribbon' society we live in, but some people are legitimately stupid, legitimately hateful, and they deserve to be told and treated as such.  For some reason, you think they need protection, and in protecting people like that you bring the rest of us down, to the point that you prefer to have them post more than the others. Well done.

But apparently you think another 9/11 thermite, etc. conspiracy theory thread is 'interesting' enough to keep around for weeks. So on it goes.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: poochy on July 26, 2017, 04:26:09 pm
Whatever you say, Mister Trump.

While it doesn't realize, or probably care because that's it's true intent, that it is a prime example of the worse that forum allows itself to offer on either an ongoing basis or for extended periods of time, it doesn't argue, it spits bile, but you must respect it, lest you be judged as the 'problem'.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 26, 2017, 06:03:07 pm
Often the person is the argument, if you honestly don't understand or are unwilling to deal with that you shouldn't be running or moderating a forum. 

Well I don't agree that people are arguments.  I'm not asking for advice anyway.

Quote
The real problem is, you, and the others over there, are just not very good at it.

You have no idea, really.  Your argument seems to be with the rules which I had little influence on.

Quote
But apparently you think another 9/11 thermite, etc. conspiracy theory thread is 'interesting' enough to keep around for weeks. So on it goes.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 09:26:44 am
Augh.  I'm getting aggravated by DogOnPorch and the retarded Muslims are evil **** again on MLW.

What is wrong with me... walk away MH...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 10:36:41 am
"Do you beat your Mufti ?"

I'm terrible... must stop... I want DogOnPorch to shut up, though, and when I am in one of these moods I can't shut up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2017, 12:02:29 pm
it appears the absentee landlord could care less about failed MLW moderation - but surely all that free/exhaustive so-called ChasMan "moderation" is an unfair labour practice!
How true.
I'm not sure if it's the wildly arbitrary approach at "moderation" of Charles Anthony, or the similar version Donald Trump brings to tweeting, but I swear I have a serious case of whiplash. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 12:13:59 pm
Meh.  Complaints about Charles are overblown IMO.

He's as weird as any of us but doesn't harbour favourites to my mind. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 03:16:23 pm
Really... really... indulging today...

All the worst posters.... all the time....
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 24, 2017, 03:53:43 pm
Meh.  Complaints about Charles are overblown IMO.

He's as weird as any of us but doesn't harbour favourites to my mind.

Boy oh boy that's not what I see. Days go by where the same posters show up and do nothing but hurl insult after insult, and of course there is the "murican who constantly trolls, and they all get away with it. Then the slightest bit of thread drift and boom, a warning point. No consistency whatsoever.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on August 24, 2017, 04:01:59 pm
"Do you beat your Mufti ?"

I'm terrible... must stop... I want DogOnPorch to shut up, though, and when I am in one of these moods I can't shut up.

Why you interact with people who cannot discuss things intelligently is beyond me. You're trying to talk to Hot Enough, Taxme and Cum Laude? Seriously? They've all been on my ignore list for ages. And btw, the last time I tried to even gently reprove taxme about his belief that far right wingnut conspiracy sites are more valid than mainstream ones by saying this just showed he had poor judgement, I got a warning point. From you.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 04:33:21 pm
Boy oh boy that's not what I see. Days go by where the same posters show up and do nothing but hurl insult after insult, and of course there is the "murican who constantly trolls, and they all get away with it. Then the slightest bit of thread drift and boom, a warning point. No consistency whatsoever.

What you're not getting is Charles isn't there in those intermediate days.  It's like a traffic cop catching you.  You can't really say "Hot Enough was speeding yesterday !"
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 04:35:19 pm
1. Why you interact with people who cannot discuss things intelligently is beyond me.
2. You're trying to talk to Hot Enough, Taxme and Cum Laude? Seriously? They've all been on my ignore list for ages.
3. And btw, the last time I tried to even gently reprove taxme about his belief that far right wingnut conspiracy sites are more valid than mainstream ones by saying this just showed he had poor judgement, I got a warning point. From you.
1. Because I'm **** crazy.  And bored.  And a bad person.
2. I have to get off those threads, I agree.
3. I'm sure I did the right thing... did I ?  I'd have to see the post again sorry.  Oh.  Maybe you called it a 'crackpot site' which was explicitly not allowed at least at one point.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 24, 2017, 05:32:47 pm
"Do you beat your Mufti ?"

I'm terrible... must stop... I want DogOnPorch to shut up, though, and when I am in one of these moods I can't shut up.

I keep him on ignore most of the time now.  But I am enjoying watching you cut him up.  :)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 24, 2017, 05:34:27 pm
The thread got locked.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on August 26, 2017, 11:54:29 am
Just got a time out on the dark side for thread drift. I posted about Nazis on a thread about Nazis.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 26, 2017, 12:07:45 pm
Just got a time out on the dark side for thread drift. I posted about Nazis on a thread about Nazis.

Yet you could drag thermite into every thread available,throw around numerous insults for good measure, and get away with it.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on August 26, 2017, 08:26:08 pm
Ain't that the truth.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 27, 2017, 10:59:05 am
How can you tell if people are suspended at MLW ?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2017, 12:54:41 pm
They tell you on this forum.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 27, 2017, 01:38:16 pm
Why is it so quiet now ?  Is everyone suspended ?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 27, 2017, 01:44:05 pm
Why is it so quiet now ?  Is everyone suspended ?

Not quite apparently. You can still get updates on nano thermite, and how the Muslim's are about to take over the country.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 28, 2017, 06:04:23 pm
Not quite apparently. You can still get updates on nano thermite, and how the Muslim's are about to take over the country.

Yeah.  I don't know why I respond to some of those people.  I have backed off but couldn't resist poking Betsy to find out what she expects normal people to do.  The answer appears to be total and complete victory and pyrrhic victory for the right.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2017, 08:19:54 pm
Yeah.  I don't know why I respond to some of those people.  I have backed off but couldn't resist poking Betsy to find out what she expects normal people to do.  The answer appears to be total and complete victory and pyrrhic victory for the right.

She sure comes a across as mean spirited for someone who claims to be religious.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 28, 2017, 08:34:53 pm
She sure comes a across as mean spirited for someone who claims to be religious.

The Jesus cult isn't Christian anymore IMO.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on August 28, 2017, 09:17:58 pm
The Jesus cult isn't Christian anymore IMO.

And the Muhamad cult?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 28, 2017, 09:22:34 pm
 >:(
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2017, 06:37:01 pm
Now that TSS is using alt-right language... and posting about foreigners in Helsinki.

Not my concern, really, what the **** goes on in Helsinki and I said as much. 

Meanwhile.... taxme has been told not to engage with me, according to him, and I didn't receive a warning of any kind. 

Does Hot Enough go away for days or is he constantly being suspended ?  I hope it's the latter.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2017, 06:54:49 pm
Now that TSS is using alt-right language... and posting about foreigners in Helsinki.

Not my concern, really, what the **** goes on in Helsinki and I said as much. 

Meanwhile.... taxme has been told not to engage with me, according to him, and I didn't receive a warning of any kind. 

Does Hot Enough go away for days or is he constantly being suspended ?  I hope it's the latter.

Are you...not a moderator?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2017, 06:59:04 pm
Are you...not a moderator?

No, I'm not moderating at MLW now.  Actually, it's been many months I think.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2017, 07:04:55 pm
Uh... no... maybe since May ?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 29, 2017, 07:30:01 pm
No, I'm not moderating at MLW now.  Actually, it's been many months I think.

So it's an honourary title?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2017, 07:37:08 pm
So it's an honourary title?

I suppose it is.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2017, 10:38:00 pm
I...had no idea.  I've been there twice since February.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on August 29, 2017, 11:03:21 pm
Now that TSS is using alt-right language... and posting about foreigners in Helsinki.

Not my concern, really, what the **** goes on in Helsinki and I said as much. 

Meanwhile.... taxme has been told not to engage with me, according to him, and I didn't receive a warning of any kind. 

Does Hot Enough go away for days or is he constantly being suspended ?  I hope it's the latter.

It's really nice to see this side of you MH.  I like it way better than moderator MH.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on August 29, 2017, 11:05:13 pm
No, I'm not moderating at MLW now.  Actually, it's been many months I think.

Kimmy, are you still facilitator? 

Or is it just down to CA now and he's only intermittent? 

Wow, this is yuuge.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 29, 2017, 11:16:37 pm
It's really nice to see this side of you MH.  I like it way better than moderator MH.
Yeah, me too.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 07:27:35 am
It's really nice to see this side of you MH.  I like it way better than moderator MH.

I guess you can't appreciate how insulting that sounds.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 07:34:19 am
Yeah, me too.

So patronizing.  Well I am sorry my many hours of volunteering to clean up your collective **** displeased my masters.  I hope my 'new' personality is much more to your liking.  Please fill out a comment card on the way out.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 30, 2017, 08:48:10 am
I understand moderating is a tough and thankless job, but taking offense when people want to express their appreciation for you in a different role seems pretty churlish. 

In case the brevity of my response is part of the problem, let me use more words:  when you were a moderator, I was not able to appreciate your intellect nor your excellent discussion technique.  I liked you as a moderator, in my opinion you always tried to be fair and dispassionate, but I like you better as a poster because of what you are able to bring to the discussion. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 08:54:10 am
Bullshit.

I like the new non-moderator personality better is another pile-on of abuse.  It's like telling a cop that you are surprised they have a family.

Not a compliment.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 09:12:02 am
" I liked you as a moderator "

Ok, just saw this.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 30, 2017, 09:26:59 am
Bullshit.

I like the new non-moderator personality better is another pile-on of abuse.  It's like telling a cop that you are surprised they have a family.

Not a compliment.

I don"t think its a matter of "MH doesn't have a personality", but more like "when MH is able to post freely because  he is no longer a moderator, he is much more interesting."   
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 09:35:58 am
I don"t think its a matter of "MH doesn't have a personality", but more like "when MH is able to post freely because  he is no longer a moderator, he is much more interesting."

My response to that is... "duh".  Facilitators and moderators aren't free to post and engage with members in the same way as those members.  The odd thing is that people will accuse you of having hidden agendas when you're being a restrained moderator, but if you're out there posting then they assume you're trustworthy.

Moderating is a shitty job.  Charles must be hating it now, I would think.  People come at you with ridiculous accusations and force you to look up days or weeks old posts so you can respond.  Like I care enough about these people to plot against them.  Charles would tell me not to respond to PMs about moderation and he was right.  It never helped the situation, just inflamed the angry idiots more and more.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 30, 2017, 09:41:00 am
My response to that is... "duh".  Facilitators and moderators aren't free to post and engage with members in the same way as those members.  The odd thing is that people will accuse you of having hidden agendas when you're being a restrained moderator, but if you're out there posting then they assume you're trustworthy.

Moderating is a shitty job.  Charles must be hating it now, I would think.  People come at you with ridiculous accusations and force you to look up days or weeks old posts so you can respond.  Like I care enough about these people to plot against them.  Charles would tell me not to respond to PMs about moderation and he was right.  It never helped the situation, just inflamed the angry idiots more and more.

Well, you tried damn hard and yeah, we people do have a tendency to take things way personal. 

Anyway. Thanks for all your work trying to maintain a place of civil and intelligent discourse, and may I also add I really appreciate what you add as a poster?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 09:46:51 am
Here's an example...

I took down a post where they were insulting sources, and PM'd the person explaining:

Quote
"This article is stupid.  I don't accept the source" is ok.

"This article is bullshit.  Your source is bad" is ok.

Specifically calling sources "looney" or "crackpot" is something Charles doesn't accept."

And I got back this:

Quote
I called you out on the rule and you **** hide the post? Coward. You busted the rule and got caught.

These PMs come from posters who are obliged to be civil on the board but feel free to insult/abuse people via PMs.  I did this work for a year or so to make a better board but in the end an influx of idiots made the board worse.  I would have liked to just kick them off the board without reason but it wasn't that kind of board.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on August 30, 2017, 11:01:57 am
I did this work for a year or so to make a better board but in the end an influx of idiots made the board worse.

shocking! So-called MLW "moderation" drove away a brazillion legitimate contributing members... only to be replaced by your described, "influx of idiots". Shocking! So long as ChasMan plied his bullshyte, your presumed helpful efforts went nowhere! Go figure, hey!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 11:08:19 am
I sense something like appreciation here, but without due respect to the moderators and owner.

They clearly want a 'free speech' forum, which is entirely in their domain to decide and define.

If you don't like it you can always leave.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on August 30, 2017, 11:10:31 am
Lighten up MH

People are trying to say that they are seeing a side of you which you couldn't show because you were moderating, and they like it.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: waldo on August 30, 2017, 11:10:59 am
I sense something like appreciation here, but without due respect to the moderators and owner.

They clearly want a 'free speech' forum, which is entirely in their domain to decide and define.

If you don't like it you can always leave.

short version: "free speech <> idiot speech"... take it or leave it!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 12:41:03 pm
I agree.  I probably have a higher bar for idiots, and might give them a chance to pick up their game a bit, but I would have no problem showing 9/11 Truthers and Zionist/Alex Jones lovers the door.  There are plenty of shitty forums for them to free speak in.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 30, 2017, 12:48:28 pm
I agree.  I probably have a higher bar for idiots, and might give them a chance to pick up their game a bit, but I would have no problem showing 9/11 Truthers and Zionist/Alex Jones lovers the door.  There are plenty of shitty forums for them to free speak in.
It would seem that CA has quite a different approach to those issues.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 12:52:01 pm
He's a 'free speech' guy. That's what he values and so there will be free speak happening.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on August 30, 2017, 01:14:47 pm
I sense something like appreciation here, but without due respect to the moderators and owner.

They clearly want a 'free speech' forum, which is entirely in their domain to decide and define.

If you don't like it you can always leave.

Just to be clear - I don't think I'm due any respect for what I do here.  It's as much for me as for anyone else.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on August 30, 2017, 01:16:41 pm
It would seem that CA has quite a different approach to those issues.

Make sure you have the closing quote bracket - [ /quote]
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on August 30, 2017, 01:19:42 pm
He's a 'free speech' guy. That's what he values and so there will be free speak happening.

Seems to me the "free speech" one particular 9/11 truther, I suspect you are speaking of, hurled as much in the way of insults as he did bogus science, and got away with it constantly.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 01:22:05 pm
Just to be clear - I don't think I'm due any respect for what I do here.  It's as much for me as for anyone else.

That's like saying you're not due respect for volunteering to do something.  You are wrong and I don't believe you actually think that.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2017, 01:23:32 pm
Seems to me the "free speech" one particular 9/11 truther, I suspect you are speaking of, hurled as much in the way of insults as he did bogus science, and got away with it constantly.

No, at least not while I was there.  If he 'gets away with it' then it's not because it's ignored, necessarily.  It could be:

-not reported
-not otherwise seen by moderators
-mild, or part of a tit-for-tat fight that isn't worth resolving

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on August 30, 2017, 02:34:13 pm
Here's an example...

I took down a post where they were insulting sources, and PM'd the person explaining:

And I got back this:

These PMs come from posters who are obliged to be civil on the board but feel free to insult/abuse people via PMs.  I did this work for a year or so to make a better board but in the end an influx of idiots made the board worse.  I would have liked to just kick them off the board without reason but it wasn't that kind of board.

I think a policy of booting people after one warning for sending PMs like this would be ideal.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on August 30, 2017, 03:10:18 pm
Just to be clear - I don't think I'm due any respect for what I do here.  It's as much for me as for anyone else.

Disagree. I think there should be a level of respect for people who volunteer their time to do something that helps a community, unless, of course, they're really bad at it. I often PM'd the moderators either to protest a warning/suspension or to get some idea of how they were applying the rules NOW. It's not like there was a lot of consistency nor that they warned you before changing them. I mean, obviously I don't want to be suspended so I wouldn't write something if I knew it was against the rules. So suspensions always came out of the blue for me.  I was also polite in my PMs, though, and abided by the same rules as I did on the public board (ie, no insults, curses etc). My major problem was when I got no reply, or a snotty, insulting, arrogant one. Sometimes I'd get one which actually discussed it. Once I even agreed I was wrong. Once, Charles even agreed he was wrong. Those were, unfortunately, rare occurrences.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on August 30, 2017, 07:43:56 pm
I guess you can't appreciate how insulting that sounds.


You think it's insulting that someone I never knew anything about turned out to be someone whose opinions I enjoy reading?

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 01, 2017, 12:34:57 pm
They clearly want a 'free speech' forum
I'm glad you put free speech in irony quotes because this is the most hilarious thing I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 01, 2017, 12:37:03 pm
I personally don't see any difference in MH, except for perhaps his interest in the study of "cultures."
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on September 01, 2017, 12:41:50 pm
Wrong thread.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 01, 2017, 01:02:52 pm
I personally don't see any difference in MH, except for perhaps his interest in the study of "cultures."

It's all about groups of people and their explicit and implicit rules for interaction, their values etc.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 01, 2017, 01:26:18 pm
Someone should start an "MH Culture" thread.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 01, 2017, 04:59:37 pm
I agree.  I probably have a higher bar for idiots, and might give them a chance to pick up their game a bit, but I would have no problem showing 9/11 Truthers and Zionist/Alex Jones lovers the door.  There are plenty of shitty forums for them to free speak in.

9/11 truthers & zionists etc. aren't the problem.  As long as they & others debate with mutual respect, there shouldn't be issues.  Just about any topic can be discussed with civility & respect to the other participating members.  The problem with MLW is that they stopped enforcing civil discussion.

It shouldn't be a matter of free speech, the MLW rules clearly show that not all speech is allowed, specifically that which is disrespectful to other members.  Insults/name-calling, trolling, flaming etc. & otherwise acting like a jerk.

What's happened I think is that "free speech" is increasingly valued by Charles & Greg, & so many rules have stopped being enforced.  So crackpots & jerks have free reign to cause sh!t, while the more moderate members got frustrated & left.  Add the overly heavy-handed punishments when the rules were enforced by a mod that wanted to pretend to be a tough-guy & control-freak, & you have a forum that's turned into a piece of sh!t.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 01, 2017, 06:11:13 pm
9/11 truthers & zionists etc. aren't the problem.  As long as they & others debate with mutual respect, there shouldn't be issues.  Just about any topic can be discussed with civility & respect to the other participating members.  The problem with MLW is that they stopped enforcing civil discussion.

How do you hold a civil discussion with someone who keeps quoting from nutty cites, keeps ignoring reality and evidence, and uses absurd conspiracy theories to support his case? With truthers, the moment you pin them down, after painstaking effort, on one thing, they'll jump to another, and by the time you're finished tearing that argument down they seem to have completely forgotten that you dealt with the first one and will bring that up again. It's simply not possible to argue with such people. As for the white supremacists or whatever, I've tried to engage with taxme in a civil fashion in the past because he sounds not so much hateful as kind of dumb and believing nonsense he found on the internet. But it doesn't work. He believes the crap he's read from nutty white supremacy and conspiracy sites and there's no convincing him otherwise.

Quote
What's happened I think is that "free speech" is increasingly valued by Charles & Greg, & so many rules have stopped being enforced.  So crackpots & jerks have free reign to cause sh!t, while the more moderate members got frustrated & left.

I don't know what happened to such people in the past, but I'm guessing they were ruthlessly mocked and ridiculed and that caused them to get out. Under the more repressive moderating style we've seen over the past few years, though, they were protected from being treated disrespectfully and so have thrived.

Quote
Add the overly heavy-handed punishments when the rules were enforced by a mod that wanted to pretend to be a tough-guy & control-freak, & you have a forum that's turned into a piece of sh!t.

The punishments were heavy-handed, and given, for the most part, without warning or appeal. Often without much explanation, and they were far more wide ranging than they used to be. Used to be the moderation focused on calling the other members names. Then it spread to calling politicians names, then to insulting anyone anywhere, be it groups of people like, for example, a native council, or some bureaucrat or cop or geographical area. None of that was necessary.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 04, 2017, 08:30:56 am
9/11 truthers & zionists etc. aren't the problem.  As long as they & others debate with mutual respect, there shouldn't be issues.  Just about any topic can be discussed with civility & respect to the other participating members.  The problem with MLW is that they stopped enforcing civil discussion.

I think it is a problem, in that it makes a boring forum.

As for the 'problem', I am seeing a lot of posts that applaud the new hands-off approach, and as such it validates my departure as moderator because I'm philosophically against it. 

Quote
It shouldn't be a matter of free speech, the MLW rules clearly show that not all speech is allowed, specifically that which is disrespectful to other members.  Insults/name-calling, trolling, flaming etc. & otherwise acting like a jerk.

There is leeway, though, as to when they step in.  I was more draconian in that I would NOT allow ANY insults if I saw them.  The other mods wouldn't step in until it got worse than that.

Quote
What's happened I think is that "free speech" is increasingly valued by Charles & Greg, & so many rules have stopped being enforced.  So crackpots & jerks have free reign to cause sh!t, while the more moderate members got frustrated & left.  Add the overly heavy-handed punishments when the rules were enforced by a mod that wanted to pretend to be a tough-guy & control-freak, & you have a forum that's turned into a piece of sh!t.

Moderate members are bored with "says YOU" argument.  As I said, you may think it's a piece of **** but DoP, Hot Enough and the like now have the petri dish they always wanted.  "You are free to defend interesting and progressive discussion."  >:(
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 04, 2017, 10:58:41 am
I'm just glad that you weren't the one that ran into the fire, MH.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 04, 2017, 02:55:30 pm
Yeah, you heard about this? 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 04, 2017, 04:39:47 pm
Yeah, you heard about this?

International news
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 04, 2017, 05:52:31 pm
Maybe I will post about it...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 05, 2017, 11:44:05 am
9/11 truthers & zionists etc. aren't the problem.  As long as they & others debate with mutual respect, there shouldn't be issues.  Just about any topic can be discussed with civility & respect to the other participating members.  The problem with MLW is that they stopped enforcing civil discussion.
Why should anyone "respect" 9/11 truthers? I don't respect conspiracy theorists at all. I judge them as having an incapacity for rational thought and find them reprehensible.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 05, 2017, 04:36:45 pm
Good question.

Also... why do I engage ?
 
Because I'm crazy, that's why.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2017, 03:47:03 pm
Still crazy after all these posts.

New thing today in that I had posts removed for thread drift.  DogOnPorch runs away from facts with his custom "You are Muslim" argument... which I respond to... luckily I got it back from CA and was able to post in a better thread.

Betsy, taxme and hot enough are now teaming up against me.   
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 07, 2017, 03:55:46 pm
Still crazy after all these posts.

New thing today in that I had posts removed for thread drift.  DogOnPorch runs away from facts with his custom "You are Muslim" argument... which I respond to... luckily I got it back from CA and was able to post in a better thread.

Betsy, taxme and hot enough are now teaming up against me.  Like a Justice League in adult diapers...

Or like the three stooges, but without the humor.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on September 07, 2017, 03:58:37 pm
Why should anyone "respect" 9/11 truthers? I don't respect conspiracy theorists at all. I judge them as having an incapacity for rational thought and find them reprehensible.

Some conspiracy theories are ridiculous, agreed.  Like blowing up WTC#7, or the Clintons killing their staff.  Sure. 

But I think it's also naive to believe that the government is totally honest.  There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that we will never know and I think conspiracy theorist take that fact of life and run with it to the point of believing even the unreasonable. 

Ultimately though, not all conspiracy theories are crock.  I believe some are true.



Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 07, 2017, 04:05:20 pm
Some conspiracy theories are ridiculous, agreed.  Like blowing up WTC#7, or the Clintons killing their staff.  Sure. 

But I think it's also naive to believe that the government is totally honest.  There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that we will never know and I think conspiracy theorist take that fact of life and run with it to the point of believing even the unreasonable. 

Ultimately though, not all conspiracy theories are crock.  I believe some are true.

I'd be interested to hear which ones you believe in. And I don't mean that to be a poke at you, for instance I'm still unsure who shot JFK, and I've been to Dallas and Deally Plaza a number of times and visited many bookstores where the discussion focuses an the events of what happened just down the street.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2017, 04:18:57 pm
1. But I think it's also naive to believe that the government is totally honest. 
2. Ultimately though, not all conspiracy theories are crock.  I believe some are true.
1. As Chomsky points out governments commit some of their worst sins in plain view and nobody cares.
2. Sure, like the PMO's office is said to have helped get a McGill reporter fired because he wrote a post critical of Quebec.  Political manipulation of the press... who can forget the outrage that caused....
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2017, 04:19:43 pm
I'm still unsure who shot JFK.

If you look it up, it was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2017, 04:20:52 pm
Or like the three stooges, but without the humor.

Similar level of dialogue though.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on September 07, 2017, 06:35:44 pm
I'd be interested to hear which ones you believe in. And I don't mean that to be a poke at you, for instance I'm still unsure who shot JFK, and I've been to Dallas and Deally Plaza a number of times and visited many bookstores where the discussion focuses an the events of what happened just down the street.

JFK and Roswell are two where I don't think we know the whole story.  I wouldn't go full crackpot on either but I just think the official story isn't all there is to it.  The third is more Alex Jones nuttery and although I'm vastly opposed to it being true, I'm open to plausibility -- unlike say 9/11 being an inside job or Obama being Kenyan or the moon landing being fake which I think have zero chance of being true.

I find the fact that Princess Diana told her lawyer that she'd die in a 'staged' car or helicopter accident a bit unsettling.  On a scale of 1 to 100, I think there is a 98% chance she was paranoid after a traumatic divorce and it was just coincidence that she died in a car accident; but when someone predicts their own death so specifically my absolute 0 chance of something being true goes to I suppose it could be plausible even though I think it's very unlikely. 

The rest about her being pregnant etc, I believe the official reports that she wasn't.




Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 07, 2017, 07:38:57 pm
But I think it's also naive to believe that the government is totally honest.  There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that we will never know and I think conspiracy theorist take that fact of life and run with it to the point of believing even the unreasonable. 

I don't really believe that - I mean, the government can barely keep secret the things that it's supposed to.  In a human system, very frew things can truly remain hidden.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 07, 2017, 08:42:06 pm
I don't really believe that - I mean, the government can barely keep secret the things that it's supposed to.  In a human system, very frew things can truly remain hidden.

That's right.  Having worked with large organizations, it's hard to coordinate large operations... and keep it secret ?

As for JFK.  I highly recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.ca/Case-Closed-Harvey-Oswald-Assassination/dp/1400034620

Posner, in an incredible feat of scholarly research, pieces together Oswald's life and addresses pretty much every theory put out there by the conspiracy cottage industry.  You can't read this book and conclude anything other than JFK acted alone.

He was a lifelong communist and bitter miscreant, who actually made an assassination attempt on a right-wing political figure shortly before his lucky shots that killed Kennedy.  His job at the Texas Book Depository was obtained by a friend of his wife's.  It all added up to a string of sad coincidences.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 07, 2017, 09:41:11 pm
But I think it's also naive to believe that the government is totally honest. 
i don't believe the government is totally honest. But even conspiracies that are right, I have little respect for. Maybe you've heard this saying: throw enough **** at a barn and some of it is bound to stick; or the less vulgar--even a broke clock is right twice a day. Conspiracies are not rational or reasoned thinking. They're often leaps to conclusions. When challenged every one of those nut jobs responds the same way, "do the research for yourself! The truth is out there." It's all garbage even when it's right because it diminishes society's capacity for intelligent and reasoned discussion and even thought.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on September 08, 2017, 12:31:48 pm
i don't believe the government is totally honest. But even conspiracies that are right, I have little respect for. Maybe you've heard this saying: throw enough **** at a barn and some of it is bound to stick; or the less vulgar--even a broke clock is right twice a day. Conspiracies are not rational or reasoned thinking. They're often leaps to conclusions. When challenged every one of those nut jobs responds the same way, "do the research for yourself! The truth is out there." It's all garbage even when it's right because it diminishes society's capacity for intelligent and reasoned discussion and even thought.

Personally, I think it's more of a self-perceived sense of superiority, of not being one of the 'sheep' and seeing things others don't see.  I don't really get annoyed by them though the way you do unless they are obsessive and very consumed by them.  Like I said, there are some I either believe, or think could be plausible, but I don't lose sleep over it the way some people like to create thread after thread and debate the 'dumb sheep' about it. 

My husband believes in a few and he doesn't bring it up because he knows I just shake my head, but whatever.  If he was always trying to discuss them with me and trying to convince me, I wouldn't like it but otherwise to each their own.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 08, 2017, 03:40:25 pm
Personally, I think it's more of a self-perceived sense of superiority, of not being one of the 'sheep' and seeing things others don't see.

Learn to think for yourself!

That seems to be a favorite expression. As if they're the clear thinkers, and the rest of us are just unthinking dupes of the government or mainstream media, which, as you know, is controlled  by Zionists agents and the illuminati. It takes special people to see through this to the underlying conspiracies and know the real truth.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 08, 2017, 11:24:54 pm
Why you interact with people who cannot discuss things intelligently is beyond me. You're trying to talk to Hot Enough, Taxme and Cum Laude? Seriously? They've all been on my ignore list for ages. And btw, the last time I tried to even gently reprove taxme about his belief that far right wingnut conspiracy sites are more valid than mainstream ones by saying this just showed he had poor judgement, I got a warning point. From you.

I just realized.  Now that I am not a mod I should be able to use the ignore feature.  Thanks !
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 10, 2017, 11:45:53 am
Members over there are lying about what I say over here...   lol

Telling people I've been insulting them.   I gave them a challenge to find a single post where I insulted anyone from there...    no takers yet...    but they're still making those claims!

Lots of lurkers from there...   I guess word got out.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: kimmy on September 10, 2017, 12:08:29 pm
Personally, I think it's more of a self-perceived sense of superiority, of not being one of the 'sheep' and seeing things others don't see. 

As if they're the clear thinkers, and the rest of us are just unthinking dupes of the government or mainstream media, which, as you know, is controlled  by Zionists agents and the illuminati. It takes special people to see through this to the underlying conspiracies and know the real truth.

I think that's a big part of it. A psychological craving to feel special, to feel superior, to find something in their sad, mediocre existence that sets them above the sad mediocre worker bees.

Something else I have speculated might play a part is that people crave community. It's hardwired into us.  We survived as a species because we formed tribes and clans. In our world we don't have tribes and clans anymore, but people still find other ways to build tribes and clans. Religion filled this role for a long time, and for many people it still does... I think the modern-day evangelicals in the US south are an example of how clannish religious people can be.  People form tribes around other things as well. Sports teams. Political movements or ideologies. Social causes. Their work. Their hobby.  And I have often wondered if conspiritard culture is just another sort of tribe or clan, especially for people who are too weird to fit in with other groups. Maybe identifying themselves with some conspiritard movement or another gives these people a sense of common cause that other people find in religion or their favorite sports team or their profession or other things.

 -k
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2017, 12:28:37 pm
I think the #1 appeal of conspiracy theories is that they're fun to believe.  How cool would it be if the moon landing were fake, Bush orchestrated 9/11, the CIA/FBI murdered JFK, and aliens crash landed and are kept in Area 51. 

Overactive imaginations create things that could plausibly happen that they'd want to to be true and then they find any kind of evidence for it and ignore the overwhelming evidence against it.

I have friends who legit believe in ghosts and aliens.  Tons of confirmation bias.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 10, 2017, 01:01:28 pm
It has been a few years but I did have the opportunity to visit Dealey Plaza a couple of times. I found it gave me an eerie feeling standing within a few feet of were Oswald's gun sits atop the desk he apparently used to steady his aim.

 Visiting a couple of book stores nearby and you come out with your head spinning with the myriad of conspiracy theories that still swirl around that event. I spoke to one of the store clerks and he told e people will come from far and wide on a vacation specifically to either bone up on the latest ones or add a few of their own to the mix. It was amazing as to just how far fetched some of them were. The sheer paranoia level was a bit frightening.

I would venture a guess those type of theories are still swirling through those stores and streets.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:04:41 pm
It takes special people to see through this to the underlying conspiracies and know the real truth.

Honest question: when you watch the MSM - any MSM, ie. CBC, NPR, CNN, Fox News - do you accept everything you hear as truths or do you evaluate it as you listen ?  I do the latter.

Would you guess as to how convinced you are by the average MSM report ?  I would say I accept the facts that are reported, as in hard data/who said what/what happened on face value, and am most skeptical of talking heads/politicians who speak.  Business people, adovcates, public servants, experts... also have an agenda or at least... a bias.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:06:07 pm
Lots of lurkers from there...   I guess word got out.

Yeah, I'm not happy about that.  I thought this was a private board which is why I was bitching about certain members.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:10:08 pm
1. Something else I have speculated might play a part is that people crave community. It's hardwired into us.  We survived as a species because we formed tribes and clans. In our world we don't have tribes and clans anymore, but people still find other ways to build tribes and clans. Religion filled this role for a long time, and for many people it still does...
   
2. People form tribes around other things as well. Sports teams. Political movements or ideologies. Social causes. Their work. Their hobby. 

3.And I have often wondered if conspiritard culture is just another sort of tribe or clan, especially for people who are too weird to fit in with other groups. Maybe identifying themselves with some conspiritard movement or another gives these people a sense of common cause that other people find in religion or their favorite sports team or their profession or other things.

 -k

Remember when I said it's all about culture ? :)
1. Yes, the forming AND the coming apart of tribes is informative as to how our group dynamics drive politics and groupings.
2. Burning Man.  One of our ten principles is inclusion, ie. welcoming the stranger.  People show up and sometimes drink the kool aid on the first day because they are surrounded by welcoming wonderful people.
3. For sure.  Same with racist cultures, orthodox religions and so on.  Burning Man is a new cult but I see fundamentalists happening before my eyes, it's weird.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 10, 2017, 03:12:43 pm
Honest question: when you watch the MSM - any MSM, ie. CBC, NPR, CNN, Fox News - do you accept everything you hear as truths or do you evaluate it as you listen ?  I do the latter..

As far back as, I think, high school, I remember bringing in a copy of a story in the Toronto Sun and one in the Toronto Star to my English teacher. They were covering the same story, but they described it completely differently and each contained information the other lacked. So I'm well aware that even the MSM is biased to some degree. They might not actually lie about something, not knowingly, but that doesn't mean they won't slant it, or exempt certain information. FOX, of course, is the champion at this. But the CBC has its moments. I particularly dislike how they have political panels containing four left of centre people and then pretend one of them is right of centre.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:20:21 pm
I particularly dislike how they have political panels containing four left of centre people and then pretend one of them is right of centre.

Panel discussions are fake consensus through and through.  I would have them include representatives of stakeholders, who have high level knowledge of the issues, as well as an objective referee.  Not the same 3 pundits from newspapers talking about the best political strategies behind messaging of the parties.  "But, Chantal Hebert, how will this message play in Quebec ?".

Who cares...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:23:56 pm
Side note - this is one of the great downfalls of MSM that isn't mentioned enough... "Politics" shows play as "Inside Baseball"... which they aren't.  They discuss strategies and politics fights rather than the ideas because that is SO much more interesting.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 10, 2017, 03:32:26 pm
Yeah, I'm not happy about that.  I thought this was a private board which is why I was bitching about certain members.

A private board - is that possible?   And if so, would it be a good idea?   I don't want to exclude different viewpoints, but I would really like to avoid fanatics (conspiracy, religious or anti-religious) or troll-like posters from mucking this board up.   

I've been on boards where people weren't allowed to lurk, as well.  You either contribute, or you go home.  Would that be an option? 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 10, 2017, 03:38:31 pm
A private board - is that possible?   And if so, would it be a good idea?   I don't want to exclude different viewpoints, but I would really like to avoid fanatics (conspiracy, religious or anti-religious) or troll-like posters from mucking this board up.   

That won't happen.  It will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 10, 2017, 03:39:12 pm
To put it in perspective - this site now has over 1000 views per day.  It used to be about 1/4 of that. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:56:40 pm
1. A private board - is that possible?   And if so, would it be a good idea?   I don't want to exclude different viewpoints, but I would really like to avoid fanatics (conspiracy, religious or anti-religious) or troll-like posters from mucking this board up.   

2. I've been on boards where people weren't allowed to lurk, as well.  You either contribute, or you go home.  Would that be an option?
1. Hide posts unless you are registered.
2. Sure.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:57:24 pm
To put it in perspective - this site now has over 1000 views per day.  It used to be about 1/4 of that.

You're welcome.  I'm responsible for 600 of those, just from my wife checking on me. :D
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 10, 2017, 03:58:20 pm
That won't happen.  It will not be tolerated.

To be clear.... AVOIDING them won't happen ?  AVOIDING them won't be tolerated ?

:D
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 10, 2017, 09:10:34 pm
Quote
I particularly dislike how they have political panels containing four left of centre people and then pretend one of them is right of centre.

I think this is your CBC bias coming out.   

Who are they pretending is "right-of-centre"?   Stockewell Day?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 10, 2017, 10:16:20 pm
I think this is your CBC bias coming out.   

Who are they pretending is "right-of-centre"?   Stockewell Day?

You might notice that Stockwell Day is only selected when certain issues are discussed. You will never see him representing 'the right' when discussing abortion or something similar. Usually the 'right wing' representative is only right wing insofar as the Toronto media is concerned. And you can pretty much count on this 'right wing' representative to be an enthusiastic supporter of gay rights, multiculturalism, bilingualism, feminism, immigration,  and all the other mandatory progressive touchstones when they're discussed, because otherwise they won't have him or her on the show. The only people they will have on the show arguing against these things are selected for their lack of effectiveness in opposing those positions. Mind you, they rarely talk about such things. They instead talk about the parties and their skirmishing.

I've used this as an example before: When these political panels - all of them - discussed the idea of screening immigrants for extremist views, all of them were outraged by the thought. I don't mean they didn't think it would work. Although occasionally that was mentioned in passing. I mean they were fundamentally outraged by the idea that there were somewhere some cultures that were inferior to ours and that we might not want to bring into Canada. This opinion was unanimous among all panelists on every show I saw, and they discussed it repeatedly over the course of the Tory leadership campaign. It was also unanimous among the so-called 'conservative' press, like the National Post, for example. Nowhere, was there a mainstream media figure of any note who was not outraged. I read not one columnist and saw not one person on the MSM who supported it. Not one.

The thing is, the polls showed that the vast majority of real Canadians though it was a pretty damned good idea. Even among Liberal and NDP supporters 60% supported it. I think this shows the huge disparity between the groupthink culture of the national media and the political class, and that of regular Canadians.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: kimmy on September 10, 2017, 10:44:41 pm
Yeah, I'm not happy about that.  I thought this was a private board which is why I was bitching about certain members.

When Hal9000 showed up here I assumed that this place was known the populace over there.

I haven't been paying much attention at MLW... was something said about this forum?  thinks they want an echo chamber and can't deal with differing views.

I love differing views. I think SirJohn and TimG are great.

It's not differing views I can't deal with any more. It's knuckleheads.  There's lots of people from all across the political spectrum who I just don't want to talk to anymore because they have absolutely nothing worth saying.  MLW has become a hotbed of people who I just don't give a **** what they have to say anymore.  There are numerous trolls, and several of them are "the left". Others of note include Turks, conspiritards, trolls, and the newly minted neo-Nazi.


Life is too short.

 -k
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 10, 2017, 11:05:33 pm
When Hal9000 showed up here I assumed that this place was known the populace over there.

I haven't been paying much attention at MLW... was something said about this forum?  I saw Betsy complaining that some people had left, apparently she thinks they want an echo chamber and can't deal with differing views.

I love differing views. I think SirJohn and TimG are great.

It's not differing views I can't deal with any more. It's knuckleheads.  There's lots of people from all across the political spectrum who I just don't want to talk to anymore because they have absolutely nothing worth saying.  MLW has become a hotbed of people who I just don't give a **** what they have to say anymore.  Betsy has long been near the top of the list, but there are numerous others, and several of them are "the left". Others of note include Turks, conspiritards, trolls, and the newly minted neo-Nazi.


Life is too short.

 -k

The moderation "over there" seems to be ever more welcoming to the types you speak of. Also totally arbitrary. Insults can be hurled from the left, although more often from the right, seemingly without notice. But overall, I reckon it's heading into the right wing ditch.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:23:58 am
1.  And you can pretty much count on this 'right wing' representative to be an enthusiastic supporter of gay rights, multiculturalism, bilingualism, feminism, immigration,  and all the other mandatory progressive touchstones when they're discussed, because otherwise they won't have him or her on the show. 
2. The thing is, the polls showed that the vast majority of real Canadians though it was a pretty damned good idea. Even among Liberal and NDP supporters 60% supported it. I think this shows the huge disparity between the groupthink culture of the national media and the political class, and that of regular Canadians.

Your post is both right and wrong.  I picked two points to explain my point of view:

1. Gay rights, multiculturalism, bilingualism, "feminism" are mainstream beliefs on the whole.  You won't get a non-supporter of these issues on because they will necessarily be a fringe dweller.  They *could* have a piece with a fringe person on explaining their point of view but do they need to ?  Maybe on certain legitimate questions as part of a panel but for the most part I don't see why.  They could have a 9/11 truther on too so explain why a non-feminist and a truther should take up precious network time when their views represent single digits of interest and their ideas are generally discredited.

2. On this I agree.  Immigration is a third rail issue that for some reason can't be discussed at all which is a disservice to Canadians. 

Qualifying my opinion: "feminism", "screening", "multiculturalism" ... may be supported on the whole but the details of what is being discussed will change the landscape of the who/what/how/why of the discussion.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:32:23 am
I love differing views. I think SirJohn and TimG are great.

Agreed.  Posting here is an intellectual work-out only if you're paired with principled and informed views of the other side.  I have had my views tempered as such.   I don't like echo chambers and quit posting regularly at Rabble because there wasn't enough diversity of opinion.

Quote
It's not differing views I can't deal with any more. It's knuckleheads.  There's lots of people from all across the political spectrum who I just don't want to talk to anymore because they have absolutely nothing worth saying.

Agreed.

Quote
  MLW has become a hotbed of people who I just don't give a **** what they have to say anymore.  there are numerous others, and several of them are "the left". Others of note include Turks, conspiritards, trolls, and the newly minted neo-Nazi.

The right-wingers there will claim that we want an echo chamber but ignore the fact that left-conspiratards are in my crosshairs more than anyone. 

Quote
Life is too short.

And forums are too important.  I feel that people don't appreciate the degree to which online discussion will be shaping politics moving forward.  I hesitate to call such changes 'good' or 'bad' but I will say that such discussion is closer to the type of discussion that occurred in the town halls of old.

In the old town hall you can bet that the old conspiratard in the corner got about one minute to spew bullshit, after which the eyes in the room turned to a handful of individuals who differed in their opinions but had thoughtful and provocative things to say.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:34:36 am
The moderation "over there" seems to be ever more welcoming to the types you speak of. Also totally arbitrary. Insults can be hurled from the left, although more often from the right, seemingly without notice. But overall, I reckon it's heading into the right wing ditch.

I won't abide by kicking the moderation.  It's the rules that, in the end, allow freedom-of-speech over quality-of-speech.  There was something in there about using 'quality sources' but it's not a hard rule, nor do we have hard rules about discussing properly. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 07:17:52 am
This is an interesting discussion.  One thing I would ask is that people refrain from mentioning individual members from other fora.  I'll be removing those references.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 07:19:37 am
To be clear.... AVOIDING them won't happen ?  AVOIDING them won't be tolerated ?

:D

Shut up

Don't really shut up though.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 07:20:57 am
A private board - is that possible?   And if so, would it be a good idea?   I don't want to exclude different viewpoints, but I would really like to avoid fanatics (conspiracy, religious or anti-religious) or troll-like posters from mucking this board up.   

I've been on boards where people weren't allowed to lurk, as well.  You either contribute, or you go home.  Would that be an option?

You'll be interested to know that I have now removed all permissions from guests.  They can read the forum, but can do nothing else.  Before they could do things like search topics and read people's profiles.  Those were the default settings (they had 7 permissions). 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 08:11:21 am
This is an interesting discussion.  One thing I would ask is that people refrain from mentioning individual members from other fora.  I'll be removing those references.

Ok, well that's new.  But it's fair and I will try to comply.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 08:19:44 am
Ok, well that's new.  But it's fair and I will try to comply.

I know - I just made it up this morning. 

I am an imperfect man.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 08:31:05 am
I am an imperfect man.

Then resign.  Only perfect humans are fit to moderate.  And you MUST satisfy all posters even if they disagree.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 10:19:03 am
Your post is both right and wrong.  I picked two points to explain my point of view:

1. Gay rights, multiculturalism, bilingualism, "feminism" are mainstream beliefs on the whole.  You won't get a non-supporter of these issues on because they will necessarily be a fringe dweller.

According to the last poll I saw 30% of Canadians oppose gay marriage. That's not a fringe. Feminism support depends on what you mean by feminism. There are a lot of arguments to be made that in many areas women are not only not discriminated against but men are. The courts, as one example, both criminal and family law seem to favour women. We get all these anxious stories about what to do about the fact womens numbers in a given job group are lower than the general population, but nobody gives a **** when male numbers are lower than their population, be it the declining number of men in university or the massive majorities of women in certain occupations like teaching. You won't get anyone on these panels to take those positions, though.

Multiculturalism? Every poll I've seen says Canadians want immigrants to do more to assimilate into our culture, not retain their own. The leaders of the UK, France and Germany have all declared multiculturalism a failure which has led to disunity in their countries. Again, no one will publicly take this stance among Canada's media talking heads. Bilingualism? Most people don't understand what it means, and Canadians are a fair people. They believe (as I do) that Francophones should be able to talk to their government in their own language. Official bilingualism goes far, far beyond that but no one will dare mention it. As an example of what the people who know about it feel - here in Ottawa - our very liberal and bilingual mayor has consistently  opposed making Ottawa officially bilingual. Why? Because it infuriates the English population whenever the subject comes up.

This is not fringe stuff.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 10:22:07 am
According to the last poll I saw 30% of Canadians oppose gay marriage.

That's cool, but the debate is long over in Canada. 

The same is true for multiculturalism.  We've long settled these things.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 10:29:43 am
That's cool, but the debate is long over in Canada. 

The same is true for multiculturalism.  We've long settled these things.

I wonder if you recognize just how amazingly arrogant that position is. It's settled and the debate is over? Sorry, but the only reason the debate is over is because of the unanimity of groupthink progressivism among the major media.

Tell me, if someone wanted to talk about legalizing homosexual sex back in the sixties, and someone else said "The debate is over. It's settled." should people have accepted it and shut the **** up? Btw, I don't personally oppose gay marriage, but to say 30% of the population should shut up and the debate is done is absurd.

Multiculturalism is settled? It was settled in the UK, France and Germany for a couple of decades too. Then as numbers mounted governments began to finally acknowledge - and not right wing governments either - that the policy was a massive failure which had seriously damaged their societies. I've never met anyone in Canada outside the political media class  who supports multiculturalism other than the highly politicized members of the Left.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 10:43:22 am
According to the last poll I saw 30% of Canadians oppose gay marriage. That's not a fringe.

I suppose so.  I had no idea it was that high.  That said, do you expect anybody to have a panel on that topic ?

Quote
Feminism support depends on what you mean by feminism. There are a lot of arguments to be made that in many areas women are not only not discriminated against but men are. The courts, as one example, both criminal and family law seem to favour women.

Sure but that's not so much a feminist issue these days as many women are on the other side of this.  I fully expect that a panel on this topic should/would present both points of view.

Quote
You won't get anyone on these panels to take those positions, though.

On the topic posted, I did a search and didn't find any panels on the topic.

Quote

This is not fringe stuff.

Again, I guess it depends on the details/relevance of the issue being discussed.  I suspect The National's panels aren't so relevant anymore but I invite everyone to look at them and see what comes up.

I did a search for 'Panel' on the CBC site but none of the topics seems to match what we're discussing here.

http://www.cbc.ca/gsa/?q=panel&gns=SEARCH
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 10:58:36 am
I wonder if you recognize just how amazingly arrogant that position is. It's settled and the debate is over? Sorry, but the only reason the debate is over is because of the unanimity of groupthink progressivism among the major media.

Tell me, if someone wanted to talk about legalizing homosexual sex back in the sixties, and someone else said "The debate is over. It's settled." should people have accepted it and shut the **** up? Btw, I don't personally oppose gay marriage, but to say 30% of the population should shut up and the debate is done is absurd.

You don't get to debate taking away rights.  You do get to debate extending them.  See the difference?

Quote
Multiculturalism is settled? It was settled in the UK, France and Germany for a couple of decades too. Then as numbers mounted governments began to finally acknowledge - and not right wing governments either - that the policy was a massive failure which had seriously damaged their societies. I've never met anyone in Canada outside the political media class  who supports multiculturalism other than the highly politicized members of the Left.

I'm sorry, but those countries never had those policies.  It's worked extremely well here.  That's why the debate is settled.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 11:10:28 am
You don't get to debate taking away rights.  You do get to debate extending them.  See the difference?

You don't get to tell people what they can debate and how they can feel. That's FAR more anti-democratic than someone who wants to debate what you claim to be a right.

Quote
I'm sorry, but those countries never had those policies.  It's worked extremely well here.  That's why the debate is settled.

Those countries invented multiculturalism. Canada has never implemented a policy on its own. We only ever follow other nations. You think WE invented the concept of multiculturalism? Seriously!?

And again, it's not settled when the majority of the population doesn't like it. Your views are profoundly undemocratic. And I would say even authoritarian.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 11:41:30 am
You don't get to tell people what they can debate and how they can feel. That's FAR more anti-democratic than someone who wants to debate what you claim to be a right.

Democracy should never be absolute.

Quote
Those countries invented multiculturalism.

Their system isn't the same as ours.  That's why their's didn't work.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 11:47:31 am
Democracy should never be absolute.

Of course it is.

Quote
Their system isn't the same as ours.  That's why their's didn't work.

Ha! The system is exactly the same! The only difference is that the implementation and growth of its policies has been slowed in Canada by conservatives!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 11, 2017, 11:50:37 am
According to the last poll I saw 30% of Canadians oppose gay marriage.
That's cool. Those 30% can not get "gay married" then.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 11, 2017, 11:53:07 am
Tell me, if someone wanted to talk about legalizing homosexual sex back in the sixties, and someone else said "The debate is over. It's settled." should people have accepted it and shut the **** up? Btw, I don't personally oppose gay marriage, but to say 30% of the population should shut up and the debate is done is absurd.
That depends. Do you think personal freedoms are the same thing as opposing people's personal freedoms? Because if you do, then I guess your point makes sense. You're making the same stupid argument as alt-right lunatics. If you're not tolerant of intolerance, then you're oppressing people. If you fight oppression, then you're an oppressor. 2 + 2 = 5. Doubleplusungood.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 11:53:57 am
Ha! The system is exactly the same! The only difference is that the implementation and growth of its policies has been slowed in Canada by conservatives!

It's not the same.  There you had an overarching cultural framework that clashed with the idea of multiculturalism - that isn't the case here.

Toronto is the world's most diverse city, with half its population being born somewhere else.  It's entirely successful.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 11, 2017, 11:55:53 am
You don't get to tell people what they can debate and how they can feel. That's FAR more anti-democratic than someone who wants to debate what you claim to be a right.
You know how free speech works, right? They get the freedom to say and have their views and people get the freedom to respond to those views, specifically by telling them how stupid they are. Unless you don't think criticism should be included in free speech....which is a pretty interesting stance to have since it's the entire purpose of free speech.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 11:59:16 am
Of course it is.

No.  It's an uneasy partnership between the executive, the people and the courts.  Even then, all 3 can align in the wrong way.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 12:19:48 pm
That depends. Do you think personal freedoms are the same thing as opposing people's personal freedoms?

It doesn't have to be the same. The ultimate personal freedom is being able to speak your mind and opinion. If you can't do that the rest really don't come into play. Democracy is the ultimate expression of freedom of speech and opinion. But again without freedom of the press it's hard to have real democracy.

Personal freedoms? What is personal freedoms anyway? It seems to change depending on who you talk to. I'm mostly of the sort that says your freedom ends when it interferes with mine which is why I don't really give a **** about gay marriage. On the other hand, a lot of people seem to feel it doesn't matter if something interferes with their own personal freedom. Incest is illegal, for example, because so many people feel it's icky, same as underage ****. And we won't let men have four or fives wives or marry their horse because we don't approve. Why can't I find decent herbicides for my lawn? Because whiners don't approve. We restrict personal freedoms all the time.

Quote
If you're not tolerant of intolerance, then you're oppressing people. If you fight oppression, then you're an oppressor. 2 + 2 = 5. Doubleplusungood.

Funny how many people seem to feel my lack of tolerance for intolerance is a character flaw when that intolerance comes from particular religious communities.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 11, 2017, 02:00:44 pm
It would be find if you didn't tolerate intolerance. Once again, you think EVERYONE who is part of that religious group is intolerant. Since you're intellectually lazy, you find it easier to just be intolerant towards all Muslims (most likely all Arabs regardless of,whether they're Muslim or not).
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 03:12:00 pm
Since you're intellectually lazy, you find it easier to just be intolerant towards all Muslims 

From MLW "degree to which Muslims will assimilate is related to where in the world they come from, and the degree of education and language skills they possess when they get here."

So you have here an acknowledgement that religion itself is not THE defining variable.  My great idea is to feed definitive factors into a linear regression and see what poops out.  You can't blame the algorithm for being prejudiced.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 05:37:14 pm
That won't happen.  It will not be tolerated.

I think as long as people are respectful to each other, people should be free to speak.  There should be no censoring of ideas no matter how ridiculous.  The last board didn't go to the poops because of too many wingnuts, it went to poops because mods did a terrible job which drove away the more reasonable posters.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 05:39:52 pm
It's not differing views I can't deal with any more. It's knuckleheads.  There's lots of people from all across the political spectrum who I just don't want to talk to anymore because they have absolutely nothing worth saying.  MLW has become a hotbed of people who I just don't give a **** what they have to say anymore.  There are numerous trolls, and several of them are "the left". Others of note include Turks, conspiritards, trolls, and the newly minted neo-Nazi.

Life is too short.

They can be put on ignore.  The problem is there's nobody else left to talk to on there.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 05:43:23 pm
I think as long as people are respectful to each other, people should be free to speak.  There should be no censoring of ideas no matter how ridiculous.  The last board didn't go to the poops because of too many wingnuts, it went to poops because mods did a terrible job which drove away the more reasonable posters.

For me, it was mostly the wingnuts.  The moderation was just an additional problem.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:11:51 pm
The last board didn't go to the poops because of too many wingnuts, it went to poops because mods did a terrible job which drove away the more reasonable posters.

Disagree.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:12:29 pm
They can be put on ignore.  The problem is there's nobody else left to talk to on there.

Yes,I am using ignore now and I find this.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:16:59 pm
Your post is both right and wrong.  I picked two points to explain my point of view:

1. Gay rights, multiculturalism, bilingualism, "feminism" are mainstream beliefs on the whole.  You won't get a non-supporter of these issues on because they will necessarily be a fringe dweller.  They *could* have a piece with a fringe person on explaining their point of view but do they need to ?  Maybe on certain legitimate questions as part of a panel but for the most part I don't see why.  They could have a 9/11 truther on too so explain why a non-feminist and a truther should take up precious network time when their views represent single digits of interest and their ideas are generally discredited.

The MSM has a pretty clear liberal bias, except for the reactionary right-wing outlets.  The reason for this is because the MSM is urban-biased (and in Canada also quite Toronto-centric).  If you want to be a journalist in the MSM, you have to move to a large urban center like NYC or LA etc., and in Canada's case most of it is out of Toronto (and sometimes Ottawa).  Large urban centers are very often left-leaning, and LA/NYC/Toronto without question.  The voice of people who live in smaller cities, small towns, and rural outskirts, which tend to be more conservative, are largely ignored.  Why was/is the US north left-leaning and the US south left-leaning?  Why is Toronto left-leaning while Calgary and the rest of the prairies right-leaning?  Because the left-leaning areas are more concentrated urban centers of industry/commerce, while the right-leaning areas have always been more rural/agrarian. I think  urban people tend to be exposed to new ideas and more diverse people, while more rural people are more practical ("common sense") and less exposed to things beyond their traditional way of life, like homosexuals and immigrants, which partly explains the urban-rural gap.

This also partly explains why educational institutions tend to lean liberal, and why the most liberal universities in the country are in Toronto, and in the US places like Berkeley.  Most journalists go to university/college for schooling, and so attend a liberal school often in a big city, so they're influenced by their education, friends, and general culture surrounding them which finds its way into their reporting bias.

Our movies and TV shows come out of NYC, LA/California, Toronto/Vancouver etc., which are liberal centers, and artists in general tend to be left-leaning because artistic people are more sensitive and in tune with emotions than a more practical people like a farmer of fisherman or engineer, so there is an very strong liberal bias in our entertainment MSM as well.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:19:40 pm
This is an interesting discussion.  One thing I would ask is that people refrain from mentioning individual members from other fora.  I'll be removing those references.

Maybe we should eventually work out a set of rules, and vote on it.  We could use the old site's rules as a base, since I think they were good rules poorly or partially implemented and worked well for a long time there.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 06:21:35 pm
It would be find if you didn't tolerate intolerance. Once again, you think EVERYONE who is part of that religious group is intolerant. Since you're intellectually lazy, you find it easier to just be intolerant towards all Muslims (most likely all Arabs regardless of,whether they're Muslim or not).

I never assume "all" Muslims are intolerant. That would be idiotic. However, it is impossible to deny that the level of intolerance, never mind extreme intolerance on gender, sexual and social mores is higher among the world's Muslims than anywhere else by quite a large degree. There are some good fish among there but I just don't see the need to fish in those waters when cleaner, clearer, safer waters are available and you can get more big fish.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:22:10 pm
You'll be interested to know that I have now removed all permissions from guests.  They can read the forum, but can do nothing else.  Before they could do things like search topics and read people's profiles.  Those were the default settings (they had 7 permissions).

Sounds good.  I don't see a harm in lurkers.  You can't hurt anything by looking, and I know there's people on forums who simply lurk for years but never sign up or post.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:24:03 pm
Our movies and TV shows come out of NYC, LA/California, Toronto/Vancouver etc., which are liberal centers, and artists in general tend to be left-leaning because artistic people are more sensitive and in tune with emotions than a more practical people like a farmer of fisherman or engineer, so there is an very strong liberal bias in our entertainment MSM as well.

If that's true, then aren't people from those places likely to be pro-globalized business and therefore pro-corporate ?  Pro big finance ?  Certainly those places are richer and benefit more than the boonies from global trade.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:29:44 pm
If that's true, then aren't people from those places likely to be pro-globalized business and therefore pro-corporate ?  Pro big finance ?  Certainly those places are richer and benefit more than the boonies from global trade.

Artists and journalists aren't MBA's or financial analysts.  What does Meryl Streep or your average screenwriter or comedy writer care about international business?  Angelina Jolie & George Clooney are trekking around Africa trying to save poor children, not trying to exploit them for profits dividends.  People who own businesses and hence directly benefit from global trade are few even in a big city.  Most people in big cities are the little guys who work for the big guys.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 06:47:03 pm
  People who own businesses and hence directly benefit from global trade are few even in a big city.  Most people in big cities are the little guys who work for the big guys.

Where do you think university students come from ?  And where do they work ?  A lot of them are the children of people who work for big corps.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 06:47:31 pm
If that's true, then aren't people from those places likely to be pro-globalized business and therefore pro-corporate ?  Pro big finance ?  Certainly those places are richer and benefit more than the boonies from global trade.

I think one of the dividing lines is that life tends to be more comfortable and relaxed in major urban centres. The cities provide a lot of services, there's many, many for hire businesses willing to do anything you want, from repairing your roof to cutting your lawn, stores and restaurants everywhere, and there's much less need of self reliance.  Paycheques are higher, and the types of businesses there are replete with stringent HR rules about what you can and can't say and do. There is an expectation of going along to get along. The opinion makers tend to be upper middle class or higher, in very comfortable, well-paying jobs, usually with government or academia. The people who even select journalism as their profession, say, are a largely self-selected bunch. If you grow up poor, you generally take something you're confident will get you a well-paying job. Rural people tend to do the same - practicality. I'd be willing to bet most people who go into journalism come from fairly comfortable backgrounds nowadays, and simply assume they'll find a way since money has never been an issue of concern in their families. So, already from a comfortable urban background they go to journalism school and are taught by a group of very left-leaning professors and teachers in a very left-leaning academic environment in left-leaning urban centres. They don't worry much about how pipelines and iron mines will help the economy, so much as their impact on the environment. They don't worry about how globalism might help business so much as how it will impact indigenous people in Brazil or empower corporatism. And they  curl their lips at the religious and social beliefs of anyone who, well, thinks differently than they do. Rural people? I mean, rural areas are nice to canoe through but my God, who in their right mind would ever want to live there!? I mean, can you imagine Trudeau, or one of our major media personalities living away from a big urban centre? There's no decent Shawarma place! And trying to find Thai food would be a nightmare!

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:56:08 pm
I'm sorry, but those countries never had those policies.  It's worked extremely well here.  That's why the debate is settled.

IMO it's pretty naive to think this, especially considering what's going on along the left-right spectrum right now, even in Canada.  The most cutting-edge progressive "identity politics" thought in universities today across Canada, ideas I never heard about even 5 years ago, has some very dangerous & divisive elements to them (and also many great ideas), and some on the right are reacting with just as dangerous a set of ideas.  Yes, even in Canada.  Visible minorities are very quickly gaining power as they continue to dominate university enrollment & influence progressive ideology.

If you think multiculturalism is "settled" in this country you're in for rude awakening the next few decades.  As the Caucasian populations in western countries inevitably become a minority due to lack of breeding, Caucasians in these countries will see their countries' culture & demographics shift dramatically as non-western immigrants replace them.  The transition from traditional very westernized caucasian majority to globalist societies will be very rough.  Terrorism & anti-Islam sentiment is an extreme example of this.  This also accounts for the recent rise in white nationalism, which IMO will continue to grow at least until the baby-boomers are mostly dead. Luckily we'll get to learn from our European friends since they'll go through these growing pains and we can learn from their mistakes (and successes), as well as from the mistakes of our more conservative US friends to the south as we've already been doing.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 06:57:07 pm
Disagree.

What caused the decline then?

I don't blame you btw.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 07:07:59 pm
What caused the decline then?


Bad posters who mostly follow the rules.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:08:38 pm
Their system isn't the same as ours.  That's why their's didn't work.

Not true.  Countries like Britain and France are having more problems than us because they have more (non-western) immigration than us, especially from north african muslim populations.  There's more Muslims in France than any other western country, & the highest as a % of total pop (10%).  For example, Canada has about 1 million Muslims, France has 5 million, Germany 3.5 - 4.7 million, UK 3 million, USA 2.5 mil, Italy 2.2 mil. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)

Do you think the Burkini is so controversial in France because they have a "different system"?  If so, explain.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:14:28 pm
Bad posters who mostly follow the rules.

Your claim is there's been a steady & significant increase in bad posters there?  I claim there's been a steady and significant decline in the quality of moderation aka from the "head mod", with the tacit support of the site operator leading to a steady & significant decline in good posters there.  This site is evidence.  Power corrupts and causes arrogance.  They made their bed now they get to lay in it.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:17:51 pm
Where do you think university students come from ?  And where do they work ?  A lot of them are the children of people who work for big corps.

Yes but I don't understand your point?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 07:30:43 pm
Your claim is there's been a steady & significant increase in bad posters there?  I claim there's been a steady and significant decline in the quality of moderation aka from the "head mod", with the tacit support of the site operator leading to a steady & significant decline in good posters there.  This site is evidence.  Power corrupts and causes arrogance.  They made their bed now they get to lay in it.

There's no way to prove quality.  It's ethereal.  The good new posters aren't coming and I don't think anyone can say why.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 07:31:57 pm
Yes but I don't understand your point?

They come from the land of corporations so they are comfortable with corporations.  Sure, they may think they should be taxed more but they grew up in a land that benefits from them.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 07:35:23 pm
Not true.  Countries like Britain and France are having more problems than us because they have more (non-western) immigration than us, especially from north african muslim populations.  There's more Muslims in France than any other western country, & the highest as a % of total pop (10%).  For example, Canada has about 1 million Muslims, France has 5 million, Germany 3.5 - 4.7 million, UK 3 million, USA 2.5 mil, Italy 2.2 mil. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)

Do you think the Burkini is so controversial in France because they have a "different system"?  If so, explain.

The Muslim population percentage of the GTA is identical to that of France - yet there are virtually none of the problems.

In France, the population of newcomers has a way of life that clashes with the overarching French culture.  Canada is a culture that was created by immigration.  It's totally different.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 07:36:55 pm
They come from the land of corporations so they are comfortable with corporations.  Sure, they may think they should be taxed more but they grew up in a land that benefits from them.

Except anti-corporatism is far, far stronger among urbanites than people in rural areas.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 07:37:22 pm
Except anti-corporatism is far, far stronger among urbanites than people in rural areas.

Is it ?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:37:33 pm
I never assume "all" Muslims are intolerant. That would be idiotic. However, it is impossible to deny that the level of intolerance, never mind extreme intolerance on gender, sexual and social mores is higher among the world's Muslims than anywhere else by quite a large degree. There are some good fish among there but I just don't see the need to fish in those waters when cleaner, clearer, safer waters are available and you can get more big fish.

People born and raised in poorer developing countries are going to be more conservative, less progressive, and less modern than us.  Just like older people born in Canada are generally more conservative, less progressive, and less modern than their children. 

What we need to do is:
1. keep the bad ones out while letting the good ones in
2. Send the bad ones home when we fail to assess that they're indeed bad ones when they first apply.
3. Make sure the good ones are properly integrated into Canadian society, especially their children.
4. Make sure the good ones are accepted into Canadian society, which directly helps with #3.

You're helping with #1 - 3.  You're hurting with #4 when you use too broad a brush.  Most Canadians help with #4, but IMO come up short in #1-3.  Our gov has done so-so with #1-3, and fairly good with #4 especially this gov.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:39:24 pm
The good new posters aren't coming and I don't think anyone can say why.

I'd guess social media?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 07:39:31 pm
The Muslim population percentage of the GTA is identical to that of France - yet there are virtually none of the problems.

The Muslim population % of Paris is twice that of Toronto. A not insignificant difference.

Quote
In France, the population of newcomers has a way of life that clashes with the overarching French culture.  Canada is a culture that was created by immigration.  It's totally different.

Are you saying the way of life of north African and middle eastern muslims is the same as that of Canadians? it doesn't clash with ours? I would suggest the facts suggest  otherwise.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:40:28 pm
They come from the land of corporations so they are comfortable with corporations.  Sure, they may think they should be taxed more but they grew up in a land that benefits from them.

That's doesn't mean they like them.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 07:42:33 pm
People born and raised in poorer developing countries are going to be more conservative, less progressive, and less modern than us.  Just like older people born in Canada are generally more conservative, less progressive, and less modern than their children. 

What we need to do is:
1. keep the bad ones out while letting the good ones in
2. Send the bad ones home when we fail to assess that they're indeed bad ones when they first apply.
3. Make sure the good ones are properly integrated into Canadian society, especially their children.
4. Make sure the good ones are accepted into Canadian society, which directly helps with #3.

You're helping with #1 - 3.  You're hurting with #4 when you use too broad a brush.  Most Canadians help with #4, but IMO come up short in #1-3.  Our gov has done so-so with #1-3, and fairly good with #4 especially this gov.

All my discussion on this issue has been about who we bring into the country, not the ones already here. I haven't suggested any punitive measures against Canadian Muslims, not even that they not be allowed to wear their hijabs and whatnot. I have said they need to be isolated from the Saudi influence, however, and no money for religious or cultural activities be permitted to come in from the Saudi government or any of its affiliates 'charities'.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 07:43:49 pm
There's no way to prove quality.  It's ethereal.  The good new posters aren't coming and I don't think anyone can say why.

Maybe they come, read, and decide the place is not for them due to too many crazies?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 07:44:20 pm
Are you saying the way of life of north African and middle eastern muslims is the same as that of Canadians? it doesn't clash with ours? I would suggest the facts suggest  otherwise.

It's far easier for people to adapt to a culture that adapts back.

As for your other claim - the cites I can find have the Paris Muslim population at about 10%, and Toronto at 8%.  That's far from double.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 07:48:08 pm
That's doesn't mean they like them.

Uh... well ok.   I don't have stats on this, but it seems to me if everybody you know and your whole town makes money from fishing you'll support fishing.  It only stands to reason but... maybe I'm out on a limb here I dunno...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:49:03 pm
The Muslim population percentage of the GTA is identical to that of France - yet there are virtually none of the problems.

Muslim pop in Marseille, France is 25%, 15% in Paris, 20% in Roubaix etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population)

Quote
In France, the population of newcomers has a way of life that clashes with the overarching French culture.  Canada is a culture that was created by immigration.  It's totally different.

That's true I agree, good point, those are far older cultures/countries/nation-states and less willing to change.  I think this combines with the demographic differences. The US has far more nationalism and historical awareness than Canada too.  Canada has weaker sense of nationalism compared to most other western nations.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:51:22 pm
All my discussion on this issue has been about who we bring into the country, not the ones already here. I haven't suggested any punitive measures against Canadian Muslims, not even that they not be allowed to wear their hijabs and whatnot. I have said they need to be isolated from the Saudi influence, however, and no money for religious or cultural activities be permitted to come in from the Saudi government or any of its affiliates 'charities'.

What about Muslim schools?  They exist in Canada.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 07:52:07 pm
Uh... well ok.   I don't have stats on this, but it seems to me if everybody you know and your whole town makes money from fishing you'll support fishing.  It only stands to reason but... maybe I'm out on a limb here I dunno...

I hate my employer but I take their money  ;D
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 11, 2017, 08:00:09 pm
Muslim pop in Marseille, France is 25%, 15% in Paris, 20% in Roubaix etc.

Thanks for the link - there are several numbers for Paris though.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 08:01:28 pm
I hate my employer but I take their money  ;D

You hate your employer ?  Weird.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 11, 2017, 08:01:57 pm
I know a little about French/Muslim background, because I went to high school in Paris, which was on the edge of town so there were lots of suburban Muslims there as well as your usual white lapsed Catholic French people.

First of all, everybody got along.  The Muslims were 'French' in many ways, and not particularly religious.  However, there was an 'otherness' and a refusal from the French people to consider Muslims as 'French'.  There was also a refusal of French people to accept Portugese, Greece and European immigrants as French.

My friends seem to have found jobs on the fringes of French society - new industries such as IT or new medical services.  A lot of the good jobs go to people from the 'right' schools, as it is/was in Britain.  The odd thing about France was it was on paper egalitarian and socialist but the society had a strong class culture.

That's the difference between Canada/US and Europe, if I have to guess.  We still have much more of an open society, that accepts the entrepreneurial immigrant who is successful as one of ours.

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/100-richest-canadians-complete-list/

The French list is all French names as far as I can see:

https://www.forbes.com/pictures/hdgi45fekd/1-liliane-bettencourt/#739a23e81721
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 08:06:32 pm
It's far easier for people to adapt to a culture that adapts back.

What kind of adapting back do you think we should be doing towards cultures which despise Jews and Christians - and Sikhs and Hindus -  and treat women like cattle?

Quote
As for your other claim - the cites I can find have the Paris Muslim population at about 10%, and Toronto at 8%.  That's far from double.

The one I saw was metro area, and was listed as 10-15%
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2017, 08:10:21 pm
All my discussion on this issue has been about who we bring into the country, not the ones already here. I haven't suggested any punitive measures against Canadian Muslims, not even that they not be allowed to wear their hijabs and whatnot. I have said they need to be isolated from the Saudi influence, however, and no money for religious or cultural activities be permitted to come in from the Saudi government or any of its affiliates 'charities'.

How utterly generous of you not to suggest any punitive measures against any of our citizens, or aspiring citizens, and of course I would remind  you have zero authority implement such, as much as you seem to think you'd like to. And also how utterly narrow minded of you to assume all Muslim's come from Saudi Arabia. You should perhaps travel a little bit and learn a little about the cultures you so readily condemn.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 08:12:15 pm
How utterly generous of you not to suggest any punitive measures against any of our citizens, or aspiring citizens, and of course I would remind  you have zero authority implement such, as much as you seem to think you'd like to. And also how utterly narrow minded of you to assume all Muslim's come from Saudi Arabia. You should perhaps travel a little bit and learn a little about the cultures you so readily condemn.

Shhh. Grownups are talking. Go back to MLW and exchange insults with Nazis. It's all you're capable of anyway.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2017, 08:15:25 pm
Shhh. Grownups are talking. Go back to MLW and exchange insults with Nazis. It's all you're capable of anyway.

You continue to demonstrate who is only capable of insults. And the smack downs just keep on coming, here, and there.
And I've signed off of MLW, way too many right wing wackos there now. But you're welcome there I'm sure.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 11, 2017, 08:35:56 pm
You continue to demonstrate who is only capable of insults.

You continue to snipe at me and then whine when I'm rude. Grow up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2017, 10:28:14 pm
You continue to snipe at me and then whine when I'm rude. Grow up.

Calling you out as to the nature of your posts is not sniping. Grow up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 11:05:47 pm
C'mon now get along ladies!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 11, 2017, 11:14:16 pm
Anyone find it awesome that the "Thread Drift" thread has succumbed to thread drift?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest18 on September 12, 2017, 07:27:05 am
It's refreshing. I like following the flow of conversation without some security guard who wants to be a cop telling everybody to keep repeating what the OP says with new words.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 12, 2017, 09:44:57 pm
The Muslim population % of Paris is twice that of Toronto. A not insignificant difference.

Are you saying the way of life of north African and middle eastern muslims is the same as that of Canadians? it doesn't clash with ours? I would suggest the facts suggest  otherwise.
Do you think the culture of African Muslims is the same as Southeast Asian Muslims or Canadian-born Muslims?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 12, 2017, 09:46:14 pm
What about Muslim schools?  They exist in Canada.
So do Catholic schools and in Ontario they're paid for by the government.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 12, 2017, 09:49:43 pm
Do you think the culture of African Muslims is the same as Southeast Asian Muslims or Canadian-born Muslims?

All Muslim's are the same according to argus don't ya know.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2017, 03:37:59 pm
Do you think the culture of African Muslims is the same as Southeast Asian Muslims or Canadian-born Muslims?

There is a similarity based on the extreme misogyny of their religious texts. For example, female genital mutilation is over 90% in Mali and Egypt, but also in Malaysia. And they all have a pretty fierce dislike of Jews. I mean, Malaysia doesn't even HAVE any Jews, but it's pretty strongly antisemitic. You also won't find non-Muslims treated equally with Muslims in any Muslim ruled country. Nor are you going to find any gay pride parades.

To the extent the majority of Canadian Muslims originated outside of Canada their views will reflect the views of Muslims from outside Canada. That's a problem to me given the increasing level of religious intolerance in Muslim countries. Whether it's Indonesia in the far Pacific, or Egypt or Lebanon in the Arab world, or Pakistan in southeast asia, the Wahhabi influence, pushed by tens of billions of Saudi money, has been turning the rest of the Muslim world into as harshly intolerant a mindset as you see in Saudi Arabia. If you went to Lebanon or Egypt thirty or forty years ago you'd not have found many women wearing hijabs, let alone covering their faces. Now look at them. And such a habit is growing in Canada, up strongly over the past ten years so that now the majority of Canadian Muslim women wear hijabs or burkas or something similar.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2017, 03:41:29 pm
.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 13, 2017, 03:44:01 pm
So do Catholic schools and in Ontario they're paid for by the government.

Catholic schools in Canada reflect Canadian values in that the teachers, curriculum and texts are almost all Canadians. Most of the teachers in Islamic schools originate outside of Canada, as do almost all the texts. Saudi Arabia, btw, happily supplies free educational material to anyone who asks. They're also willing to help contribute to the costs of the school and supply teachers.

I think Irshad Manji talked about being expelled from such a school when she was a young girl in BC for questioning why she was being taught about how evil Jews were.

Looked it up.
Manji’s career as an asker of questions began early. Growing up in Richmond, B.C., she attended madresa, a Muslim religious school, every Saturday. There, she says, she was taught appalling things: she was not to befriend non-Muslims,specifically Jews; if she was a bad Muslim, her coffin would be squeezed so hard that passers-by would hear her screams; reciting prayers in a “Canadian accent” was blasphemous. Manji would challenge the logic of these and other pronouncements. Her questions (and the fact that she dared to ask them at all) were not well received by the mullahs. At 15, she was finally expelled. “

http://rrj.ca/a-talking-contradiction/ (http://rrj.ca/a-talking-contradiction/)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2017, 09:37:45 pm
There's extreme misogyny in Christian and Jewish texts too. I don't see you on a crusade against them.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 13, 2017, 09:38:55 pm
As a matter of fact, I don't see you much concerned at all about women's rights or the rights of the LGBTQ community unless it allows you to express your hatred for Muslims.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: BC_cheque on September 13, 2017, 10:36:37 pm
There is a similarity based on the extreme misogyny of their religious texts. For example, female genital mutilation is over 90% in Mali and Egypt, but also in Malaysia. And they all have a pretty fierce dislike of Jews. I mean, Malaysia doesn't even HAVE any Jews, but it's pretty strongly antisemitic. You also won't find non-Muslims treated equally with Muslims in any Muslim ruled country. Nor are you going to find any gay pride parades.


You're aware that FGM predates Islam (and Christianity and even Judaism) and is mostly an African problem, not Muslim, no?

Here is a good read if you're interested:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/oct/02/reza-aslan/fact-checking-reza-aslans-retort-bill-maher/
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2017, 06:40:27 pm
There's extreme misogyny in Christian and Jewish texts too. I don't see you on a crusade against them.

Because they don't act out the way the Muslims do.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2017, 06:43:16 pm
As a matter of fact, I don't see you much concerned at all about women's rights or the rights of the LGBTQ community unless it allows you to express your hatred for Muslims.

What exactly am I to be concerned about? Gays in Canada have, as far as I'm aware, pretty good lives free of persecution, are more economically successful than not, and discrimination against them is so low that whenever some minor incident arises, like a rural bed and breakfast owner not wanting gays in her house the national media is all over it like white on rice.

As for womens rights. What the hell is that anyway? Can you tell me where and how womens rights are being violated or under attack somewhere in Canada?

When do progressives stop fighting a war that ended years ago anyway?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 14, 2017, 06:45:30 pm
You're aware that FGM predates Islam (and Christianity and even Judaism) and is mostly an African problem, not Muslim, no?

Are Malaysia and Indonesia in African?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 14, 2017, 07:23:40 pm
What exactly am I to be concerned about? Gays in Canada have, as far as I'm aware, pretty good lives free of persecution, are more economically successful than not, and discrimination against them is so low that whenever some minor incident arises, like a rural bed and breakfast owner not wanting gays in her house the national media is all over it like white on rice.

As for womens rights. What the hell is that anyway? Can you tell me where and how womens rights are being violated or under attack somewhere in Canada?

When do progressives stop fighting a war that ended years ago anyway?

As for women's rights? Well if you happen to be a native women, not so much. If you happen to be a white women hoping to enter the work force, and enter it for equal pay for an equal position, not so much. And if you happen to be testifying in court after being **** and the judge asks you "why didn't you just keep your knees together, not so much.

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/22/for-women-harpers-government-has-been-a-disaster/

 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 15, 2017, 05:53:54 am
Because they don't act out the way the Muslims do.

Then that takes the discussion of texts right out of the discussion and moves it back to culture.  And culture can change.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 08:09:17 am
Then that takes the discussion of texts right out of the discussion and moves it back to culture.  And culture can change.
And to reiterate, African Muslims have very different cultures from Southeast Asian ones, which is different again from American Muslims. But you know, Argus wants to perpetuate the narrative about Arab boogie men. I would be very surprised if he has ever knowingly had any relationship personal or professional with a Muslim person. He probably doesn't even know that some of the people he's encountered are Muslim, unless they're of the prayer mat, hijab, taqiyah variety. His moral panic doesn't fly with anyone who actual knows or works with Muslims.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 08:10:14 am
Are Malaysia and Indonesia in African?

If this is a strictly Muslim practice, why do Christians and other religions also practice it in Africa and the Middle East?  Eritrea has an FGM rate of 83%, although it's majority religion is Christianity; how is that not cultural?    Why do 65% of Ethiopian women undergo FGM when Christianity again accounts for the majority of the population?    Even the Ethiopian Jews practiced FGM until recently, so once again - how is this practice not cultural?

By continuing to insist that FGM is an Islamic issue and not acknowledging the pervasiveness of this as a cultural practice, one simply reveals their anti-Muslim agenda, and not their claimed 'concern' for the rights or protection of women.


Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 10:24:06 am
As for women's rights? Well if you happen to be a native women, not so much. If you happen to be a white women hoping to enter the work force, and enter it for equal pay for an equal position, not so much. And if you happen to be testifying in court after being **** and the judge asks you "why didn't you just keep your knees together, not so much.

http://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/22/for-women-harpers-government-has-been-a-disaster/

I'm struggling to see just how anything in that ludicrous article is related to womens rights - or even how the clearly biased writer managed to blame Harper for everything but menstrual cramps. Find me situations where women with the same skills and experience get paid less for the same job and I'll agree there's discrimination at work there. But that article did not so demonstrate. Instead we get complaints that women don't earn as much as men. Well, men are risk takers, work longer hours, take less time off for family, and go into different professions that women aren't interested in. Too bad, so sad. Not a matter of womens rights, though.

And complaining about women and the courts is a joke since virtually everything indicates women are the beneficiaries of systemic discrimination against men. Women criminals habitually get lower sentences, and serve them in far, far nicer prisons. Family courts are heavily weighted against men. And as far as sexual assault cases go we've seen the courts become heavily weighted against men. If a woman tells a reasonable story and the man can't find multiple cases where they can prove she's wrong, he'll probably go to jail. Even if there's no other evidence but her word.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 10:26:59 am
Then that takes the discussion of texts right out of the discussion and moves it back to culture.  And culture can change.

Almost anything can change. Christianity stopped being crazy hundreds of years ago. Mind you, it took hundreds of years and lots of blood before that happened. The problem is that while immigrants leave their old country behind they bring their religion over with them. The texts are old world, as are the imams. Sure, they might change, eventually, but it will take generations. And as surveys have shown, the change at the moment is in the wrong direction. They're growing more religious. Muslim Canadian women are becoming more likely to wear hijabs and burquas, not less.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 10:30:08 am
And to reiterate, African Muslims have very different cultures from Southeast Asian ones, which is different again from American Muslims. But you know, Argus wants to perpetuate the narrative about Arab boogie men. I would be very surprised if he has ever knowingly had any relationship personal or professional with a Muslim person. He probably doesn't even know that some of the people he's encountered are Muslim, unless they're of the prayer mat, hijab, taqiyah variety. His moral panic doesn't fly with anyone who actual knows or works with Muslims.

Why do people make moronic postings like this? You know virtually nothing about me and what life experiences I've had. So it's all brainless speculation that seems designed to fan your own towering sense of self-esteem. "Why, that sirjohn  guy knows nothing about the subject of which I am all-wise and filled with the knowledge of my superior morality and worldly vision of universal brotherhood!

I could as easily say, well, you know, that Cyber guy... but I won't, because that would be ignorant.

But I will quote yourself back to you about your personal experiences.

These are called personal anecdotes that are embedded in your biased opinions on the situation. This is not empirical quantification.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 10:39:43 am
If this is a strictly Muslim practice, why do Christians and other religions also practice it in Africa and the Middle East.  Eritrea has an FGM rate of 83%, although it's majority religion is Christianity; how is that not cultural? Why do 65% of Ethiopian women undergo FGM when Christianity again accounts for the majority of the population? Even the Ethiopian Jews practiced FGM until recently, so once again - how is this practice not cultural

Probably due to Muslim influence. Eritrea and Ethiopia, for example, were once conquered by and a part of the Ottoman empire. With Islam in control a lot of cultural practices would have been absorbed.

Quote
By continuing to insist that FGM is an Islamic issue and not acknowledging the pervasiveness of this as a cultural practice, one simply reveals their anti-Muslim agenda, and not their claimed 'concern' for the rights or protection of women.

I do have an anti-Islam agenda, much as you have a pro-Islam agenda, which is why you continue to invent tortuous excuses as to why Islam is not, somehow misogynistic. No, those women WANT to cover their faces everywhere they go! They WANT to be discriminated against in every aspect of their lives! They WANT to obey their husbands! Why, nowhere on earth is more a paradise for women than the Islamic world!

If 95% of women have FGM in a Muslim state, well by God you'll find somewhere on earth where a few non-Muslims have FGM and scream it from the rooftops! Not Islam's fault! Islam loves women! See! See! Aluha Akbar!

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 12:24:34 pm
Why do people make moronic postings like this? You know virtually nothing about me and what life experiences I've had. So it's all brainless speculation that seems designed to fan your own towering sense of self-esteem. "Why, that sirjohn  guy knows nothing about the subject of which I am all-wise and filled with the knowledge of my superior morality and worldly vision of universal brotherhood!

I could as easily say, well, you know, that Cyber guy... but I won't, because that would be ignorant.

But I will quote yourself back to you about your personal experiences.

These are called personal anecdotes that are embedded in your biased opinions on the situation. This is not empirical quantification.

Everything I wrote is evidenced by your posts. You make up a bunch of nonsense about what you think is in the hearts and minds of Muslims without any evidence whatsoever. I'm saying I don't buy into your moral panic because 1) there is no public evidence that the Muslims we admit into this country through our immigration program are a threat, and 2) I've personally never felt threatened by any Muslim I have ever met and it's been a lot. I lived in Windsor, ON which has a very large Lebanese Muslims population and Fredericton, NB has admitted more Syrian refugees per capita than any other city in the country. I've been involved with helping them settle here. I don't buy into the garbage you spew (and it is garbage) because I personally see no evidence of it and you've provided no clear evidence of it.

ISIS. ISIS would kill us all. Do you think the government is over there trying to get ISIS to come here? Because if you do, then you're no better than the WTC 7 people.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 12:44:23 pm
Probably due to Muslim influence. Eritrea and Ethiopia, for example, were once conquered by and a part of the Ottoman empire. With Islam in control a lot of cultural practices would have been absorbed.
FGM is a cultural practice that predates Islam, Christianity and Judaism and is thought to have originated in ancient Egypt or earlier.  It was practiced by Jews in the area and is still practiced by Christians and Muslims.  If anything, Islam picked it up from early Christians and Jews.

Quote
I do have an anti-Islam agenda, much as you have a pro-Islam agenda,
Not so much pro-Islam as anti-bigot and anti-xenophobic.

Quote
which is why you continue to invent tortuous excuses as to why Islam is not, somehow misogynistic. No, those women WANT to cover their faces everywhere they go! They WANT to be discriminated against in every aspect of their lives! They WANT to obey their husbands! Why, nowhere on earth is more a paradise for women than the Islamic world!
Funny how I have often condemned misogny in Islam, and how the legal systems in Muslim majprity countries favor men.  Funny how you continue to try to discredit me through lying about what I have said.

Quote
If 95% of women have FGM in a Muslim state, well by God you'll find somewhere on earth where a few non-Muslims have FGM and scream it from the rooftops! Not Islam's fault! Islam loves women! See! See! Aluha Akbar!
More hyperbolic ridiculousness from you.  African and ME countries don't have just a "few" non-Muslim women who suffer FGM; the stats of 90% or 80% or 70% apply to all women, not just Muslim women.   

Nor am I screaming or making ridiculous claims about how women are treated in these countries; you just can't resist throwing out insults when someone effectively disagrees with you using facts instead of fear-mongering. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 01:11:38 pm
My reason for preferrring posting here is because the posters don't have a habit of starting topics or arguments with "Leftists...." followed by an insult or nasty generalization etc.  That may change of course, but I have enjoyed not having to read that.

This is true for me as well.   I don't know why that"s permitted.   Criticizing a policy by current or past governments doesn't mean insulting as many people as possible and I think discussions would go better if that were discouraged.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 02:03:34 pm
This is true for me as well.   I don't know why that"s permitted.   Criticizing a policy by current or past governments doesn't mean insulting as many people as possible and I think discussions would go better if that were discouraged.

I agree and that's one of the main reasons I moved over here. That and the fact that the "other place" seems to be being overtaken by extremists/fanatics, whether they be from the left or right, and who immediately drop the gloves as soon as there positions/claims are challenged. I would prefer if those types stayed over there, and let others discuss in peace, even when there are disagreements. I guess the one that comes to mind most often in various discussions tried a name change to hide that type of attitude. Boy what a flimsy veil that turned out to be! 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 15, 2017, 02:18:33 pm
I like posting here because I'm not banned here. :)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 02:34:25 pm
I like posting here because I'm not banned here. :)

And I suspect at least some if not most who have been at the "other place" understand just how arbitrarily suspensions/bans are handed out.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 02:42:59 pm
Hey now speaking of "thread drift", here's a good one. I was just listening to CNN where Brooke Baldwin was interviewing two guests with regard to the recent firing of Jemele Hill from ESPN. I didn't get his name but a radio sports broadcaster who was one of the guests started in by saying that "there are two things I believe in in life and those are the first amendment, and boobs". Brooke did a double take and asked him to clarify if he said "boobs, or booze". He tried to blather on at length but finally got him to shut up and clarify. He confirmed it was "boobs".  Now there was a right wing knuckle dragger if ever I heard one, and to Brooke's credit she just pulled the plug and shut the conversation down. Sounds like he'd fit into the current MLW site.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 15, 2017, 03:04:45 pm
This is true for me as well.   I don't know why that"s permitted.   Criticizing a policy by current or past governments doesn't mean insulting as many people as possible and I think discussions would go better if that were discouraged.

This has me confused, since you replied to yourself....
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 03:19:26 pm
This has me confused, since you replied to yourself....

LOL.  I am on my phone with small text and thought it said Dre.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 04:19:57 pm
Everything I wrote is evidenced by your posts. You make up a bunch of nonsense about what you think is in the hearts and minds of Muslims

Really? Substantiate that. Tell me what I've made up. Tell me what isn't true. Be specific.

Quote
without any evidence whatsoever.

All those polls and surveys of the Muslim world, not to mention their behavior is not evidence, of course. Hey, in the news today a couple of teenagers tried to elope to marry each other in Pakistan. Naturally their entire village, including their extended families,  got together and executed them by electrocution.

Not that that's any indication of an 'issue' with their culture or values, of course! Mustn't judge!

Quote
1) there is no public evidence that the Muslims we admit into this country through our immigration program are a threat,

You keep seguing back into that terrorist threat business when I've already said repeatedly that is not my primary concern. But then, as much as you detest conservatives, if they're quaint and ethnic and foreign, why, it's all good! Let them hate Jews or gays or women! You'll just smile and nod in your paternalistic fashion, and maybe look the other way and whistle now and then when they do something particularly nasty.

 
Quote
2) I've personally never felt threatened by any Muslim I have ever met and it's been a lot.

These are called personal anecdotes that are embedded in your biased opinions on the situation. This is not empirical quantification.

Oh wait, sorry! That only applies to OTHER people, right?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 04:22:56 pm
And I suspect at least some if not most who have been at the "other place" understand just how arbitrarily suspensions/bans are handed out.

And sometimes they're banned because they're incapable of posting anything without insulting other posters.
Mostly because they're simply not smart enough to argue anything rationally.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 04:28:00 pm
FGM is a cultural practice that predates Islam, Christianity and Judaism and is thought to have originated in ancient Egypt or earlier.  It was practiced by Jews in the area and is still practiced by Christians and Muslims.

It's mainly practiced by Muslims, as anyone with more than half a brain would acknowledge.


Quote
Funny how I have often condemned misogny in Islam, and how the legal systems in Muslim majprity countries favor men.

Funny how you make **** up. Funny how I easily remember an argument where you got pissy and tried to say that womens safety and equality is just as high in Egypt and other Muslim countries as in Canada.

Quote
Nor am I screaming or making ridiculous claims about how women are treated in these countries; you just can't resist throwing out insults when someone effectively disagrees with you using facts instead of fear-mongering.

Why do you whine insistently when I treat you in the manner you clearly crave? If you tone down the sneers, insults and self-righteousness - not that I've seen any evidence you're capable of that - and stop making every **** topic about ME  you won't get treated like the shrill, bug-eyed Islamophile you so closely resemble.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 04:30:26 pm
This is true for me as well.   I don't know why that"s permitted.   Criticizing a policy by current or past governments doesn't mean insulting as many people as possible and I think discussions would go better if that were discouraged.

The Left and its desperate need to censor anything they disagree with...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 04:31:02 pm
Really? Substantiate that. Tell me what I've made up. Tell me what isn't true. Be specific.


That all Muslims believe the same thing.
That Muslims can't change.
That a woman who is wearing a headscarf must by default hate gays.
That FGM is an Islamic practice and not a cultural one.

That is just off the top of my head; no doubt much more could be identified.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 04:41:35 pm
That all Muslims believe the same thing.
That Muslims can't change.
That a woman who is wearing a headscarf must by default hate gays.
That FGM is an Islamic practice and not a cultural one.

That is just off the top of my head; no doubt much more could be identified.

Yes much more. Here are a couple.

That the majority of Muslim women in Canada wear the hijab, and that the majority of those who choose todo so, are doing so because they are forced to.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 15, 2017, 04:46:49 pm
It's mainly practiced by Muslims, as anyone with more than half a brain would acknowledge.
Every single organization on the planet who works with women in these cultures calls it cultural.  Every single report I have ever read about FGM confirms its cultural history and that it not primarily a religious practice but a cultural one. But you can't have people who actually know what they are talking about slow down your anti-Muslim campaign.

 

Quote
and stop making every **** topic about ME  you won't get treated like the shrill, bug-eyed Islamophile you so closely resemble.
Stop posting Islamaphobic BS and perhaps you won't feel quite so personally attacked when I point out that it is Islamaphobic BS.   
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:01:49 pm
That all Muslims believe the same thing.

I specifically said I didn't in this very thread only the other day.

Quote
That Muslims can't change.

Never said that either. I did point out that Islam isn't going to change if everyone just shows love and respect for it, and that progressives have often attacked Muslim reformers as 'islamophobes'.

Quote
That a woman who is wearing a headscarf must by default hate gays.

I don't believe it's unreasonable to believe people devoted enough to a religion to wear religious headgear everywhere they go every day of their life are going to accept that religion's doctrines. If you have a Jehovahs Witness around don't expect them to celebrate birthdays. It's not what they do.

Quote
That FGM is an Islamic practice and not a cultural one.

Which seems oddly to be mainly confined to Muslims.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:08:11 pm
Yes much more. Here are a couple.

That the majority of Muslim women in Canada wear the hijab, and that the majority of those who choose todo so, are doing so because they are forced to.

The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

Head coverings worn by Muslim women have been a flash point in western countries including Canada. Some non-Muslims view this practice as an indication of religious subjugation of women, and others have been offended by the niqab because it covers the face except for the eyes.

Despite such controversy the practice of wearing head coverings is widespread and growing in Canada. More than half (53%) of Muslim women surveyed say they wear a hijab, chador or niqab in public, with this proportion up from 42 percent in 2006. Most wear the hijab (48%, up 10 points since 2006), with comparatively fewer wearing the chador (3%, unchanged) or niqab (3%, up 2).


http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uploads/instituteprojects/survey%20of%20muslims%20in%20canada%202016%20-%20final%20report.pdf (http://www.environicsinstitute.org/uploads/instituteprojects/survey%20of%20muslims%20in%20canada%202016%20-%20final%20report.pdf)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:13:51 pm
Every single organization on the planet who works with women in these cultures calls it cultural.

I will grant that it is not an official part of Islam. It isn't something in the koran or hadiths. Nevertheless, these religious texts have sanctified and expanded on a deeply misogynistic mindset in Arabia of that time, and that misogyny has expanded with Islam. It is no coincidence that the nations where it is found all have deep Muslim influence, and it is mainly found among Muslims.

Quote
Stop posting Islamaphobic BS and perhaps you won't feel quite so personally attacked when I point out that it is Islamaphobic BS.

If you feel what I post about Islam is incorrect feel free to point out the error, if you can find any. But if you make the topic about me I will return the favour, and my opinion about you will not be flattering.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 15, 2017, 06:52:26 pm
The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

Ok - so what?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 06:57:19 pm
Ok - so what?

I wasn't the one who brought it up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 15, 2017, 06:58:24 pm
I wasn't the one who brought it up.

Sorry - it seemed like you were implying that was a problem.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 07:14:11 pm
Sorry - it seemed like you were implying that was a problem.

I asked for stuff I had 'made up' and that was one of the examples given. I replied to show I hadn't made it up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 15, 2017, 07:52:27 pm
The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

48% does not a majority make.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 15, 2017, 08:34:14 pm
48% does not a majority make.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

From your own cite.

Among female Muslims, wearing the hijab is now more common, with 48 per cent of respondents reporting wearing the head covering, up 10 points. Another six per cent report wearing a chador, which covers the body, or niqab, which covers the face.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 16, 2017, 02:25:03 am
48% does not a majority make.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591

Sir John once again plays loose with the facts...   claiming a majority when that isn't the case. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2017, 02:40:10 am
Sir John once again plays loose with the facts...   claiming a majority when that isn't the case.

And what's a bit troubling are the stats described in the article as to the rise of discrimination being experienced by certain sectors, especially muslims
I wonder what portion of our society that comes from?

(hello argus?)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2017, 03:00:11 am
Sir John once again plays loose with the facts...   claiming a majority when that isn't the case.

48% plus 6% = 54%?

Disappointing that this number is going up and not down.


This number is also going up and not down:
Quote
Additionally, attendance at religious services is up: 48 per cent of Muslims report attending a mosque or community centre for prayer once a week or more, an increase of seven points since 2006




 -k
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 16, 2017, 07:47:44 am


This number is also going up and not down:

Quote
Additionally, attendance at religious services is up: 48 per cent of Muslims report attending a mosque or community centre for prayer once a week or more, an increase of seven points since 2006

 -k

Here is an article that discusses why that's happening.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/environics-muslim-canadian-survey-1.3551465

Quote
The pressure to answer for violent attacks carried out by Muslim perpetrators has driven some young Muslims to pull away from their faith and others to try to recapture it, said University of Toronto political science lecturer Katherine Bullock.

Bullock, research director at the Tessellate Institute, was a partner in the Environics study but acknowledges the numbers don't tell the whole story.

"A lot of youth have felt let down," Bullock said, stressing that her comments stem from her research, not the survey itself. "They feel their Canadian identity has been put in question —- as if their citizenship depends on the whim of the government.

"To be a Muslim in Canada today is to be a person of scrutiny."


Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 09:39:15 am
Sir John once again plays loose with the facts...   claiming a majority when that isn't the case.

Arithmetic isn't your strong suit, is it? Nor, apparently, English comprehension.
My statement

The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

The facts posted by myself and someone else.

Among female Muslims, wearing the hijab is now more common, with 48 per cent of respondents reporting wearing the head covering, up 10 points. Another six per cent report wearing a chador, which covers the body, or niqab, which covers the face.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 16, 2017, 09:57:01 am
Arithmetic isn't your strong suit, is it? Nor, apparently, English comprehension.
My statement

The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

The facts posted by myself and someone else.

Among female Muslims, wearing the hijab is now more common, with 48 per cent of respondents reporting wearing the head covering, up 10 points. Another six per cent report wearing a chador, which covers the body, or niqab, which covers the face.


Well, I think if you can dismiss the 74% of Egyptian Christian Copts, the 88% of Eritrean Catholics or the 57% of Niger Christans who have suffered FGM as "just a few Christians", I don't see why you are so concerned about a mere 54% of Canadian Muslims wearing religious apparel.

(https://copticliterature.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/fgm7.png)

Figure 1: Percentage of girls and women aged 15 to 49 years who have undergone FGM, by religion

https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/prevalence-of-and-support-for-female-genital-mutilation-within-the-copts-of-egypt-unicef-report-2013/ (https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/prevalence-of-and-support-for-female-genital-mutilation-within-the-copts-of-egypt-unicef-report-2013/)














Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 10:14:55 am
Well, I think if you can dismiss the 74% of Egyptian Christian Copts, the 88% of Eritrean Catholics or the 57% of Niger Christans who have suffered FGM as "just a few Christians",

We've already had this discussion. These are areas of high Muslim influence. And yes, it's just a few Christians. Unless you think the half billion Christians in South America have a lot of FGM? No? I wonder why! What about the half billion Christians in Europe and North America? No? You don't say! I'm shocked!

Right, it's just a north African thing, including Malaysia and Indonesia...

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 16, 2017, 10:42:05 am
We've already had this discussion. These are areas of high Muslim influence.

That's nonsense.  What it proves is that it's a common cultural practice of the area.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 16, 2017, 10:52:56 am
We've already had this discussion. These are areas of high Muslim influence. And yes, it's just a few Christians. Unless you think the half billion Christians in South America have a lot of FGM? No? I wonder why! What about the half billion Christians in Europe and North America? No? You don't say! I'm shocked!

Right, it's just a north African thing, including Malaysia and Indonesia...

Take another look at the list: Central African Republic, Niger and Nigeria all have a higher incidence of Christian FGM than Muslim FGM.  If one combines Christian and Catholic FGM, than so do several other countries.   How does that fit into your 'It's all Muslim" narrative?

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2017, 11:03:34 am
Here is an article that discusses why that's happening.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/environics-muslim-canadian-survey-1.3551465

So the answer is to ignore it? Muslims will stop plotting terror attacks in western countries when western countries stop doing anything to investigate Muslim terror attacks?

 -k
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on September 16, 2017, 11:17:09 am
So the answer is to ignore it? Muslims will stop plotting terror attacks in western countries when western countries stop doing anything to investigate Muslim terror attacks?

 -k

Ignore what, exactly?   The article points out why young Muslim Canadians might be identifying more strongly with their faith, and doesn't speak to terror attacks or radicalization.

Are you asking what can be done to reduce the likelihood of home-grown terrorism?   That would be an excellent discussion, in my opinion.   
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 12:07:42 pm
That's nonsense.  What it proves is that it's a common cultural practice of the area.

An area which coincidentally has immense Muslim influence. Would you call Malaysia and Indonesia part of the same area?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 12:10:16 pm
Are you asking what can be done to reduce the likelihood of home-grown terrorism?   That would be an excellent discussion, in my opinion.

I would say the UK did everything one could possibly imagine to make their Muslim immigrants feel at home, granting them all manner of special considerations, banning insulting comments about Islam, even made in private - and its affect? Well, we can see that in the news.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 16, 2017, 01:10:04 pm
An area which coincidentally has immense Muslim influence. Would you call Malaysia and Indonesia part of the same area?

I would have to look into those specific cases more.  FGM in Africa predates Islam.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 16, 2017, 01:10:46 pm
I would say the UK did everything one could possibly imagine to make their Muslim immigrants feel at home

While the government may have, the populace certainly didn't.  That's where the problems emerge.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on September 16, 2017, 01:45:53 pm
While the government may have, the populace certainly didn't.  That's where the problems emerge.

I don't think that's fair.  Blaming the population as a whole for not welcoming immigrants is the same as blaming immigrants for not making any effort to integrate.  Some do, some don't.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on September 16, 2017, 02:07:02 pm
I don't think that's fair.  Blaming the population as a whole for not welcoming immigrants is the same as blaming immigrants for not making any effort to integrate.  Some do, some don't.

I'm not really blaming the populace.  The UK has a defined cultural set that is held dear by much of the populace.  Islam or anything of the other is really anathema to that.  It just doesn't work the same as a true multicultural society such as that which we have here.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 02:14:56 pm
While the government may have, the populace certainly didn't.  That's where the problems emerge.

This is the populace which voted Labour for many years, with all its feel-good, inclusive, multicultural policies? Labour is, even today, often accused of being extremely reluctant to even mildly criticize Islamic extremism while being tone-deaf to some of the Antisemitic comments made by its senior members. Further, the populace you would expect to be most hostile to newcomer Muslims would be rural, but most Muslims settled in urban areas - filled with Labour supporters. Hell, London has a Muslim mayor and voted strongly against Brexit.

Blaming the populace for this is, I think, lacking supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2017, 03:52:22 pm
48% plus 6% = 54%?

Disappointing that this number is going up and not down.


This number is also going up and not down:



 -k
Alert the authorities....religious people go to religious services!
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on September 16, 2017, 03:57:08 pm
Arithmetic isn't your strong suit, is it? Nor, apparently, English comprehension.
My statement

The majority of Muslim women in Canada do wear the hijab or the burqua or something similar.

The facts posted by myself and someone else.

Among female Muslims, wearing the hijab is now more common, with 48 per cent of respondents reporting wearing the head covering, up 10 points. Another six per cent report wearing a chador, which covers the body, or niqab, which covers the face.
So what? It's how they observe their religion. Do you have a problem with nun habits too? Fundamentalist Baptist women wearing jean skirts and bonnets? How come you don't criticize men being forced to wear certain attire if they're Mormon, Jehova's Witnesses, or Mennonite?

People get to observe their religion in this country. That's their freedom and everyone else's too. Too bad for you if you don't believe in religious freedom.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 05:57:20 pm
So what? It's how they observe their religion. Do you have a problem with nun habits too?

To repeat - because evidently some of you aren't very good at reading - I pointed this out in response to you saying I made stuff up. I asked you to substantiate that - which you have failed to do - and one of your fellow travelers stepped in to say I had made up that over half of Muslim Canadian women wore hijabs.

Still waiting for YOU to back up your statement about how I make stuff up.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on September 16, 2017, 07:30:10 pm
To repeat - because evidently some of you aren't very good at reading - I pointed this out in response to you saying I made stuff up. I asked you to substantiate that - which you have failed to do - and one of your fellow travelers stepped in to say I had made up that over half of Muslim Canadian women wore hijabs.

Still waiting for YOU to back up your statement about how I make stuff up.

And you were linked to recent poll results that showed your assumption on the hijab was wrong. Also, many women who do wear the hijab do so because it is their choice to do so. Kinda like a Christian wearing a cross ya know?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on September 16, 2017, 08:04:13 pm
And you were linked to recent poll results that showed your assumption on the hijab was wrong.

Okay, denying reality as a discussion tactic. Interesting, but curiously ineffective given the recent cites.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on November 10, 2017, 03:09:58 pm
I think I'm out at the other place. The conspiracy theorist and the radical Islamist seem to be running the show. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 03:28:13 pm
I think I'm out at the other place. The conspiracy theorist and the radical Islamist seem to be running the show.

Speaking of thread drift, I was always amazed at what the conspiracy theorist is allowed to get away with at "the other place". It seems 9-11 could br dragged into any thread no matter how far removed. The rules are certainly not applied evenly, especially by we all know who.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 10, 2017, 03:33:51 pm
I think I'm out at the other place. The conspiracy theorist and the radical Islamist seem to be running the show.

In order to keep from getting dragged back in by my own lack of willpower, I changed my PW and then forgot it.  :)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on November 10, 2017, 03:46:35 pm
In order to keep from getting dragged back in by my own lack of willpower, I changed my PW and then forgot it.  :)

Haha! Good tip.
Even tho you and I disagree on some things I enjoy hearing your thoughts and that you always give me something to ponder further. Back and forth banter isn't always bad. I appreciate that here.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Goddess on November 10, 2017, 03:50:35 pm
After the last week, where literally every damn thread was taken over by those 2, I posted on a thread that was taken over by the conspiracy guy that I nominated him to ask the media why nanothermites were not included in the coverage of a tragedy.....and got a warning for it.  It was my way of reminding him to stay on topic.  But he takes over every frickin thread with no warnings whatsoever.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 03:52:45 pm
After the last week, where literally every damn thread was taken over by those 2, I posted on a thread that was taken over by the conspiracy guy that I nominated him to ask the media why nanothermites were not included in the coverage of a tragedy.....and got a warning for it.  It was my way of reminding him to stay on topic.  But he takes over every frickin thread with no warnings whatsoever.

And YOU get the warning! Sounds familiar, especially these days.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 10, 2017, 03:53:29 pm
Haha! Good tip.
Even tho you and I disagree on some things I enjoy hearing your thoughts and that you always give me something to ponder further. Back and forth banter isn't always bad. I appreciate that here.

Yup and I am trying to keep my "tone" a little gentler as a result of your feedback.   
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on November 10, 2017, 07:17:52 pm
911 was an inside job.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 07:22:56 pm
Of course it was, and I have an acquaintance here who still claims no one was shot in Orlando because he didn't see any pictures of body's. However maybe I have just drifted the thread drift thread.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 10, 2017, 08:32:07 pm
911 was an inside job.

The planes came from outside, but most of the death and destruction was inside, yes.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Omni on November 10, 2017, 09:00:29 pm
The planes came from outside, but most of the death and destruction was inside, yes.

That's probably because the people were inside, either the planes or the buildings.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 08:14:11 am
Wrong thread.  Wait ... what ?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 08:26:02 am
Yes.  I agree. Sorry.

...

New thoughts:

Some of our frustration of this comes from the arrival into public discussion of the roughly 70 to 80% of masses who have no clue how our systems work.  And it's enraging for us to have to teach such people, especially when they arrive with the attitude of already being above politics and knowing it all.

Sometimes, as with 9/11 conspiracy theorists and alt-right crackpots, they have filled their brains with bad ideas from moron echo chambers.

I just met up with an old colleague from 20 plus years ago.  We drifted apart from work separation, and he got a family.  I remembered when the Gulf War was threatening he was worried we'd be conscripted for it.  Now, we were FAR too old for service even at that point, and conscription wasn't a thing, and we were not in the military.  At first I laughed him off, but he didn't buy it.  So I had to CONVINCE him we weren't as Canadians going to be drafted and sent to Iraq ! 

This guy had the same education, university degree that I did, but seemed to grow up in a house that didn't have discussions about political affairs.  Our house did, and although of course they weren't "balanced" my father did represent the point of view of the other side.

Back to my friend.  Lo and behold, he has bloomed into a truther and an anti-vaxxer.  I got a hint that that may be coming, so I decided to just let it be if it came up.  And my heart sank as he leaned in over the table to tell me that - actually - the media isn't reporting some of the facts blah blah blah...

---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   

We never HAD a public.  We have always had these nutbars.  Those of us who live in reality have to unite to drive out ANY politician who goes after the nutbar vote.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on November 11, 2017, 09:55:56 am
I've learned that it's mandatory to believe in every possible conspiracy theory if you're going to be a moderator.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 10:16:00 am
I've learned that it's mandatory to believe in every possible conspiracy theory if you're going to be a moderator.

Incorrect.  I was a moderator and I am against 'conspiracy theories' theoretically.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on November 11, 2017, 10:44:01 am
Back to my friend.  Lo and behold, he has bloomed into a truther and an anti-vaxxer.  I got a hint that that may be coming, so I decided to just let it be if it came up.  And my heart sank as he leaned in over the table to tell me that - actually - the media isn't reporting some of the facts blah blah blah...

I don't think we had as many of these before the internet. They had no support, no ridiculous sites which would dredge up coincidental information or quote uninformed 'experts' or provide a gathering place for these people to convince each other of their paranoid conspiracy theories.

I was having a discussion with a couple yesterday about where this all came from, and why it's so prevalent now. There is a vast distrust in institutions, including the government, media and academia. Not just among the crazy conspiracy types. It derives from the perception (largely correct) that they are not neutral players but have their own agendas to push. Of course, that was always true of government, but people somewhat relied on media to expose them. That trust in media is no longer there because media itself is perceived (somewhat true) of having its own ideological and political agenda, and thus of being corrupt and thus unreliable.

I've been saying for years that the mainstream media is biased to the Left, and I believe this is still essentially true. That FOX is extremely biased to the right is, of course, without question. Where is the neutral, unbiased authority we can trust to give us the straight truth?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 11:00:01 am
I don't think we had as many of these before the internet. They had no support, no ridiculous sites which would dredge up coincidental information or quote uninformed 'experts' or provide a gathering place for these people to convince each other of their paranoid conspiracy theories.

It's an interesting question.  My friend definitely existed before the internet, as did his apathy and ignorance.  In a group situation, one of his ridiculous other friends could convince him of pretty much anything.  ( He is/was naive. )

But his kind could not accumulate into an ignorant army and cause a problem for those of us ('THE' public) who have been thoughtfully voting in right/left centrists for the better part of a century. 

So you are mostly right, kind of in the same way you can say "wealth didn't exist before there was money".  The crazies are a 'feature' of the technology, not a bug.

Quote

I was having a discussion with a couple yesterday about where this all came from, and why it's so prevalent now. There is a vast distrust in institutions, including the government, media and academia.

Ok.  I just got f*** angry when I read this.  My idiot friend with his marginal brain has got an education, an IT job, and a house and family in the suburbs due to these institutions.

But again you are right.

Quote
Not just among the crazy conspiracy types. It derives from the perception (largely correct) that they are not neutral players but have their own agendas to push. Of course, that was always true of government, but people somewhat relied on media to expose them. That trust in media is no longer there because media itself is perceived (somewhat true) of having its own ideological and political agenda, and thus of being corrupt and thus unreliable.

Absolutely.  And it's true that media has a 'bias' and an inherent agenda, as well as occasional outright corruption but thinking people already knew this and accepted information from MSM with a degree of skepticism.

Quote
I've been saying for years that the mainstream media is biased to the Left, and I believe this is still essentially true. That FOX is extremely biased to the right is, of course, without question. Where is the neutral, unbiased authority we can trust to give us the straight truth?

Biased to the CENTRE left, yes I agree.  That is the Clinton left.  So corporate power is a given, as well as noblesse oblige. 

There will never be a neutral unbiased authority, nor a straight truth.  We need to have a 'public' that tries its best to be informed, objective and principled, and aligned with its own self-interest, which for a national public is the national interest.  Government could conceivably redesign democracy to align itself with the new media landscape but for political players there is no interest in doing so.  Instead, they can make use of mass anger and ignorance to win elections while actually changing nothing of substance.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on November 11, 2017, 11:21:18 am
Absolutely.  And it's true that media has a 'bias' and an inherent agenda, as well as occasional outright corruption but thinking people already knew this and accepted information from MSM with a degree of skepticism.

I disagree here. There used to be much MUCH more trust in academia and media, at least, and somewhat more in government. The media distrust has been building over the last couple of decades as their reputations waned. I think a big part of this was that they devolved into 'infotainment' as opposed to their previous sense of determination to simply inform people of what they needed to know. Respect for academia has also greatly declined with the ascent of ideological zealots on campus, protected by tenure. I think the whole climate science thing has damaged the reputation of academia, as well. NOTE. I don't want to argue about climate science, but it's clear some of those involved decided that their advocacy was more important than honesty. The exposure/advent of scientists and academics being paid to do 'studies' which always somehow wind up supporting the case of whatever organization funds them hasn't helped either.

Quote
Biased to the CENTRE left, yes I agree.  That is the Clinton left.  So corporate power is a given, as well as noblesse oblige. 

Identity politics have not helped, as by definition when you support one identity group you're doing so at the expense of another. This was a big part of Clinton's downfall.

Quote
There will never be a neutral unbiased authority, nor a straight truth.


There is no perfection in human behaviour, but I would argue the newscasts of fifty years ago tried harder than the ones of today.

Quote
We need to have a 'public' that tries its best to be informed, objective and principled, and aligned with its own self-interest, which for a national public is the national interest.

Only about 38% of people regularly read a newspaper, a figure which keeps dropping. Without that you're looking at sound bytes, or whatever pops up on your Facebook page that appeals to you. I have yet to see a TV newscast worthy of the name. Usually at least half consists of non-news human interest stories Infotainment), and the news coverage itself is scanty and consists of reporters telling us what people said or did rather than showing us for ourselves, or reporters interviewing reports to give us their opinion. The stories are brief and facts are few.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 01:03:23 pm
I disagree here. 

With what ?  The only thing I can see you differing on from what I wrote is the gradual 'loss of reputation' you cite.  If that's it, I concur that trust has been lost over the last 7 decades.

 
Quote
There is no perfection in human behaviour, but I would argue the newscasts of fifty years ago tried harder than the ones of today.

You're drifting into media history and there are big forces at play in that discussion:

Demographics
Technology
Economic

Newspapers were once as muckraking as cable TV is today.  Eventually it wasn't economically viable to be anything but centrist.  Similarly, the economics of being a FOX TV in a sea of bland centre-left mainstream news led to the current media landscape.  Etc.

Quote
1. ...the news coverage itself is scanty and consists of reporters telling us what people said or did rather than showing us for ourselves, or reporters interviewing reports to give us their opinion. 2. The stories are brief and facts are few.

1. That's how we got information for the most part, even 10 years ago.
2. We accepted authority.  I get better news from you lot on this site.

Most people on here (except ME of course) don't understand our mission: to band together and baptize the ignorant by fire.  Either get them to smarten up and become a truly informed 'public' or shut up and accept the system as it is.

We on here have far more in common with each other than the other 80% who have no idea how things work.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: cybercoma on November 11, 2017, 03:00:52 pm
Incorrect.  I was a moderator and I am against 'conspiracy theories' theoretically.
emphasis on was.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 11, 2017, 03:03:38 pm
This is an interesting article which discusses why the lack of trust seems to lead conservatives into believing misinformation at a greater rate than liberals.   

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/11/why_conservatives_are_more_susceptible_to_believing_in_lies.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/11/why_conservatives_are_more_susceptible_to_believing_in_lies.html)
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 11, 2017, 03:21:17 pm
emphasis on was.

Why ?  How does that change the premise?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: TimG on November 11, 2017, 04:53:35 pm
This is an interesting article which discusses why the lack of trust seems to lead conservatives into believing misinformation at a greater rate than liberals.
Only because the lies liberals believe are assumed to be "true" by the writer. e.g. GMOs are unsafe, organic food is better for you, higher minimum wages help the poor, it is possible to replace baseload power with solar and wind, et. al.  This is another in a long series of pseudo academic attempts to be-little people which conservative views.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 11, 2017, 05:19:03 pm
Only because the lies liberals believe are assumed to be "true" by the writer. e.g. GMOs are unsafe, organic food is better for you, higher minimum wages help the poor, it is possible to replace baseload power with solar and wind, et. al.  This is another in a long series of pseudo academic attempts to be-little people which conservative views.

Yes, liberals also believe things that aren't true.   But the point of the article is along the lines that conservatives, due to certain inborn personality traits, are more likely to believe untrue things than are liberals.   It's been shown that when misinformation is sent out through 'conservative' channels it gets disseminated more quickly than misinformation sent out through conservative channels.   It's not that conservatives are stupid; it's that they, as the article says, tend to give as much credence to 'gut feelings' as to actual evidence.   And it's not that liberals are immune to this; only that they are more likely to consider the evidence as well as whatever gut feelings they may have.

I live with a guy who exhibits this conservative tendency and I've seen it in action.  He hears something on the radio and goes into a rant about the evils of politicians, capitalism, immigration and sometimes Islam.  He doesn't stop to think about the source, and he doesn't stop to think about how credible the story is that he's reacting to.  He also tends to believe practically anything Dr Oz says and is forever trying to get me to try some 'miracle' cure.  He's not stupid, he's not mean or even racist: he just tends to assume the worst of everyone - especially those in power - and reacts to stories or claims that 'prove' people cannot be trusted, while putting a little too much trust in people who aren't 'part of the establishment' - like the Dr Oz's of the world.

Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: TimG on November 11, 2017, 05:56:49 pm
more likely to believe untrue things than are liberals.   It's been shown that when misinformation is sent out through 'conservative' channels it gets disseminated more quickly than misinformation sent out through conservative channels.
I see this as observer bias. People notice this stuff when they disagree with it. That does not mean there is more of it.

He hears something on the radio and goes into a rant about the evils of politicians, capitalism, immigration and sometimes Islam.
And I have run into left wing people who blindly assume every utterance by the likes of green peace is a fact and constantly harp about the "great fossil fuel company" conspiracy. What I found interesting is anti-vaxers do have some right wing advocates but the majority of people choosing to avoid vaccines are left wing to the point where epidemiologists have noticed a correlation between whole foods locations and outbreaks of diseases that have vaccines.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: wilber on November 11, 2017, 06:26:46 pm
Of course it was, and I have an acquaintance here who still claims no one was shot in Orlando because he didn't see any pictures of body's. However maybe I have just drifted the thread drift thread.

Do you think seeing pictures would change his mind?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 11, 2017, 06:31:23 pm


 What I found interesting is anti-vaxers do have some right wing advocates but the majority of people choosing to avoid vaccines are left wing to the point where epidemiologists have noticed a correlation between whole foods locations and outbreaks of diseases that have vaccines.

Yes, the anti-vaxxers should pay more attention to the experts and the years of evidence that vaccines work.  But they do not; instead, they choose to support flawed research and ignore the people who point out how and why it is flawed. 

Anyway, here's a study on the difference between republicans and liberals and libertarians processing of (mis)information.   Let me know what you think.  :)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5383823/



Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: TimG on November 11, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
Anyway, here's a study on the difference between republicans and liberals and libertarians processing of (mis)information.   Let me know what you think.  :)
Seems like my argument is supported in the literature:

Quote
By contrast, Kahan [4] posits that identity-protective motivated cognition occurs equally at both ends of the political spectrum, arguing that conservatives and liberals perform comparably on a measure of information-processing dispositions associated with cognitive biases. Individuals who scored higher on ‘cognitive reflection’—a disposition to engage in effortful processing [26]—were more likely to demonstrate motivated cognition, regardless of partisanship. While the rejection of scientific evidence seems to be primarily associated with conservative ideology [27], the observed asymmetry may not reflect fundamental differences in cognition; rather, it may just be the case that the contested scientific findings happen to challenge primarily the worldview of conservatives rather than liberals [28]. In support of this, Nisbet et al. [29] found that liberal participants react in a manner equivalent to conservatives if they encounter liberal-dissonant science messages, for example regarding the efficacy of nuclear power.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest4 on November 11, 2017, 07:26:49 pm
Seems like my argument is supported in the literature:

Yes it is, which is why I posted it when I found it. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: JMT on November 11, 2017, 09:26:05 pm
Why ?  How does that change the premise?

You need to laugh more.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 10:38:59 am
You need to laugh more.

Inscrutability is hard to make funny, David S. Pumpkins not withstanding.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 11:40:13 am
Is 'tagging' possible on here ?

If so - can we tag anecdotes in the news that have little impact to policy, or potential for interesting discussion.  I am thinking of 'outrage ****' as a tag, ie. "this individual did something morally unacceptable and we are collectively SHOCKED... SHOCKED I SAY."

I come here to use my brain to express ideas, and to use my brain to ingest ideas.  Outrage **** constipates that, greatly.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 11:50:50 am
Is 'tagging' possible on here ?

If so - can we tag anecdotes in the news that have little impact to policy, or potential for interesting discussion.  I am thinking of 'outrage ****' as a tag, ie. "this individual did something morally unacceptable and we are collectively SHOCKED... SHOCKED I SAY."

I come here to use my brain to express ideas, and to use my brain to ingest ideas.  Outrage **** constipates that, greatly.

Be careful what you wish for.  Outrage is in the eye of the beholder. 

Or would it be a tag just for your use?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 11:58:22 am
Be careful what you wish for.  Outrage is in the eye of the beholder. 

Or would it be a tag just for your use?

Tagging as a function is for everybody.  And I have to guess outrage **** is pretty easy to categorize.  Maybe people are responsible for tagging it from their side of the street only.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kelloggs-accused-racism-after-janitor-11410842

Some idiot at Kellogs put one black guy on something, cartoon form.  It was a janitor.  Stupid.  So complain to Kellogs and fix it.  It doesn't need to be in the news. 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 12:11:15 pm
Tagging as a function is for everybody.  And I have to guess outrage **** is pretty easy to categorize.  Maybe people are responsible for tagging it from their side of the street only.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kelloggs-accused-racism-after-janitor-11410842

Some idiot at Kellogs put one black guy on something, cartoon form.  It was a janitor.  Stupid.  So complain to Kellogs and fix it.  It doesn't need to be in the news.

Maybe it doesn't, but someone thought it was wrong.  Maybe others of the same mind think we should know about it.

Isn't one of the topics we often discuss, on here and the other site, the vast number of people with a sudden propensity to take offense at the merest self perceived slight, and demand the most disproportionate consequence imaginable?

I think we would be lesser people if we didn't mock them for their fragility.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 12:16:14 pm
Tagging as a function is for everybody.  And I have to guess outrage **** is pretty easy to categorize.  Maybe people are responsible for tagging it from their side of the street only.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kelloggs-accused-racism-after-janitor-11410842

Some idiot at Kellogs put one black guy on something, cartoon form.  It was a janitor.  Stupid.  So complain to Kellogs and fix it.  It doesn't need to be in the news.

That is kinda weird.  It reminds me on the time Arsenal FC, a London football club, decided to replace a stand at one end of their ground.  To hide the construction, they built a life size facade and painted the crowd on.  Then someone noticed all the faces were white.  Thousands of them.  A quick repaint was ordered.

Edit>  Actually, I was curious about this incident as I hadn't heard of it since it occurred, so I looked it up.  The criticism was for not enough non-white faces, not none at all.

Then it got into the realm of the Pythonesque.  I assume this article is humour, but you never know...

http://barrettsonthisday.anorak.co.uk/uncategorized/2111/highbury-mural-unveiled.html
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 12:19:17 pm
Maybe it doesn't, but someone thought it was wrong.  Maybe others of the same mind think we should know about it.

Sure.  How does tagging it prevent that ?

Quote
Isn't one of the topics we often discuss, on here and the other site, the vast number of people with a sudden propensity to take offense at the merest self perceived slight, and demand the most disproportionate consequence imaginable?

Yes, exactly. 

Quote
I think we would be lesser people if we didn't mock them for their fragility.

Yes, feel free to mock people who you will never meet, an **** out of millions, maybe one who lives in Texas or on a campus in the UK.  Let's do that.  Let's talk about it, and maybe tag it...
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 12:21:32 pm
That is kinda weird.  It reminds me on the time...

Yes, this is a 'who cares' story to me.  The kind of news that gets plenty of play already and nobody with any background knowledge of history, policy, government is fully qualified to opine on.  That's a valid type of online discussion.  Kind of like "did you see the guy wearing that weird hat ?"...

I am saying I'd appreciate a way to file those away so I can focus on stories that I CAN'T find everywhere on the web.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 12:25:32 pm
Yes, this is a 'who cares' story to me.  The kind of news that gets plenty of play already and nobody with any background knowledge of history, policy, government is fully qualified to opine on.  That's a valid type of online discussion.  Kind of like "did you see the guy wearing that weird hat ?"...

I am saying I'd appreciate a way to file those away so I can focus on stories that I CAN'T find everywhere on the web.

Go back and read my edit.  Funny article.

Sure, tag them if you want.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 12:35:57 pm
Go back and read my edit.  Funny article.

Yeah but ... I just said ...

Quote
Sure, tag them if you want.

Do we have tagging ?   I don't see it.

But you know what'll happen.  The argument will be then become about what was tagged and by whom, instead of the subject itself.

Maybe a 2nd from somebody on the other side of the street.   
 
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 12:39:49 pm
Yeah but ... I just said ...
   

It just seemed like you had replied too quickly to have seen my edit.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 12:51:09 pm
It just seemed like you had replied too quickly to have seen my edit.

Fine.  Out of forum courtesy I went to the link you insisted I read.  I don't know why you think it's funny.  It's another "PC world gone mad" article that I probably first read in the 1990s.  Maybe the first time a moral majority Republican got caught out for misbehaviour I found that funny but repetition reduces the number of laughs over time.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: guest7 on November 12, 2017, 12:54:23 pm
Fine.  Out of forum courtesy I went to the link you insisted I read.  I don't know why you think it's funny.  It's another "PC world gone mad" article that I probably first read in the 1990s.  Maybe the first time a moral majority Republican got caught out for misbehaviour I found that funny but repetition reduces the number of laughs over time.

Different strokes, I guess.  I thought it was funny.

I didn't insist you read it.  I just have this thing about being misunderstood.
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: SirJohn on November 12, 2017, 04:25:28 pm
I come here to use my brain to express ideas, and to use my brain to ingest ideas.  Outrage **** constipates that, greatly.

How many people post a new topic about something they're quite content and satisfied with - as opposed to something they think is wrong and they want to complain about?
Title: Re: Thread Drift
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 12, 2017, 05:18:59 pm
How many people post a new topic about something they're quite content and satisfied with - as opposed to something they think is wrong and they want to complain about?

That alone doesn't constitute outrage ****. Moralistic call-outs of individual deeds that are not relevant or barely relevant to a wider public is my first cut at describing it.