Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: MH on July 10, 2017, 03:25:04 pm


Title: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on July 10, 2017, 03:25:04 pm
I found the source for those 9/11 theories:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/884506809435922432/ZDGeqRzH?format=jpg&name=600x314)

I was going to post it on the big board, but thought better of it.  Too many snowflakes...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on July 10, 2017, 07:31:34 pm
Stupid people are everywhere.  Best thing to do is to ridicule them into dark corners of the internet. 

Speaking of the "big board"...  it encourages these crackpots and is even run by one. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on July 10, 2017, 07:49:53 pm
Don't be mean.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 10, 2017, 08:52:44 pm
Hey, remember the time Topaz posted the video about the cheque that "proved" Barack Obama donated $100,000 to the Muslim Brotherhood?

She says she gets her information from her "grapevine".  And by grapevine, I suspect she means gullible elderly idiots who share this dog-**** amongst each other on FaceBook.

Stupid people are everywhere.  Best thing to do is to ridicule them into dark corners of the internet. 

The thing is, the conspiratard man can't be reasoned with. He can't be ridiculed because he believes that he's right, and that he's plugged into the real truth and that you disagree with him because you're not plugged into the real truth.  He genuinely believes he's right and you're wrong, and nothing will convince him otherwise.

Speaking of the "big board"...  it encourages these crackpots and is even run by one.

Well, I can't talk about that, for obvious reasons.  But if I could, I'd tell you that he's a for real, bat-**** crazy, flat-earth believing nutjob who genuinely believes that modern science is one big hoax.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on July 10, 2017, 08:55:32 pm
Don't be mean.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: bcsapper on July 10, 2017, 09:32:28 pm
I found the source for those 9/11 theories:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/884506809435922432/ZDGeqRzH?format=jpg&name=600x314)

I was going to post it on the big board, but thought better of it.  Too many snowflakes...

May I?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: JMT on July 10, 2017, 09:41:23 pm
Don't be mean.

The truth isn't mean.

Also, I'm very offended by this big board small board talk...sad...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: bcsapper on July 10, 2017, 09:43:51 pm
The truth isn't mean.

Also, I'm very offended by this big board small board talk...sad...

Old board, new board would be better?

There has to be some kind of reference.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: JMT on July 10, 2017, 09:44:30 pm
Old board, new board would be better?

There has to be some kind of reference.

First rule of fight club....

I wasn't actually offended.  I just feel the need to say things.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 10, 2017, 11:07:54 pm
YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO BE SO SHOCKED WHEN ROGER STONE GETS TO TESTIFY!!

HE WILL BLOW THE LID OFF OF THIS WHOLE THING!!!!


 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on July 19, 2018, 05:36:38 pm
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/07/christian-tv-host-claims-rachel-maddow-will-lead-coup-decapitate-trump-within-hours/

Quote
Christian TV host claims Rachel Maddow will lead coup & decapitate Trump within hours


“America, you’ve been homosexualized. You’ve been Jewdy-ized. I’m just telling it how it is,” Wiles told viewers. “She was spewing out, last night, calls for revolution. She was telling the left, ‘Take a deep breath, we’re at the moment, it’s coming, we’re almost there, we’re going to remove him from the White House.’ We’re about 72 hours — possibly 72 hours — from a coup.

He'll be in cabinet in 3 days....
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on July 19, 2018, 06:12:46 pm
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/07/christian-tv-host-claims-rachel-maddow-will-lead-coup-decapitate-trump-within-hours/

He'll be in cabinet in 3 days....

What position are you betting on, or just another "advisor"?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 05, 2018, 02:33:11 pm
Alex Jones has had some of his podcasts removed from Spotify, some of his videos removed from Youtube, and hit with suspensions from Youtube and Facebook.

While it would be tempting to take this as a sign that these media outlets are taking a stance against fake news and conspiritard bullshit, I think the more likely explanation is that Youtube and Spotify and Facebook are just doing some ass-covering so that they don't get named as co-defendants next time Alex Jones gets sued.  Doing the bare minimum to say "look, we are taking action!" without hurting their bottom line and losing the dollars they get from providing conspiritard content to conspiritard audiences.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 05, 2018, 08:28:55 pm
I think it would be fitting if Alex Jones had his head kicked in by conspiritards who become convinced that he's a "disinfo-agent", feeding his audience crap designed by the Deep State to distract from the real truth.

Or if he was skinned alive by conspiritards who are convinced that he's actually one of the lizard-people and are determined to peel off his fake skin-suit to expose him to the world.

There must be a way to promote theories like this...

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on August 05, 2018, 08:32:25 pm
It’s frightening what the internet has done for the conspiracy business. The crap some of these people believe is just jaw dropping. It has enabled a lot of fringe loons to get some real traction. The internet was supposed to make people better informed. It sure hasn’t succeeded for a great number who need it most.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 05, 2018, 09:05:50 pm
Yes... it's giving people access to all kinds of information, but sadly dumb-people and gullible people are being drawn to false and misleading ideas.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: SirJohn on August 06, 2018, 09:29:31 am
Yes... it's giving people access to all kinds of information, but sadly dumb-people and gullible people are being drawn to false and misleading ideas.

 -k

 "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing."

You tell people something which is at least arguably true, and then you lead from that to something which is bullshit, and you never mention all the things which flat out contradict both of those, and bingo, you have a new indignant, outraged follower. Of course, that only works if they ignore other sources of information which contradict you. So, yes, dumb people.

Also known as FOX news viewers.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 06, 2018, 08:12:10 pm


While it would be tempting to take this as a sign that these media outlets are taking a stance against fake news and conspiritard bullshit, I think the more likely explanation is that Youtube and Spotify and Facebook are just doing some ass-covering so that they don't get named as co-defendants next time Alex Jones gets sued. 

Yes, but that also works.  Why it took this long for libel to apply to new media and that a-hole in particular is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: TimG on August 06, 2018, 08:23:03 pm
Yes... it's giving people access to all kinds of information, but sadly dumb-people and gullible people are being drawn to false and misleading ideas.
This has always been true. The difference is people are ignorant by choice rather than simply believing the only sources of information they had access to.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 06, 2018, 09:52:00 pm
Books have been available for a long time though.  And, similarly, the snooty classes were worried about giving access to books to the lower classes from what I have read.

We have ignored the masses for too long, and now they are part of 'the' public.  The Democrats always had a great way to exploit them by making demons out of the capitalist classes.  That seems to be where we are going again for better or worse...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 07, 2018, 09:19:15 am
Books have been available for a long time though.  And, similarly, the snooty classes were worried about giving access to books to the lower classes from what I have read.

Until recently, the ability to publish wasn't very widespread.  Newspapers and book publishers acted as gatekeepers.  A flat earth conspiritard couldn't just take his thesis down to Random House or Simon & Schuster and reach a wide audience. These types were pretty much restricted to putting photocopied notes on car windshields.

Now anybody can put information on the internet and if they're clever enough at promoting themselves they can reach a wide audience.

We have ignored the masses for too long, and now they are part of 'the' public.  The Democrats always had a great way to exploit them by making demons out of the capitalist classes.  That seems to be where we are going again for better or worse...

Not sure what you're trying to say here... 

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on August 07, 2018, 09:56:39 am
This has always been true. The difference is people are ignorant by choice rather than simply believing the only sources of information they had access to.

Climate change deniers are in this same camp....   Conspiratards.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 07, 2018, 06:12:38 pm
1.  A flat earth conspiritard couldn't just take his thesis down to Random House or Simon & Schuster and reach a wide audience. These types were pretty much restricted to putting photocopied notes on car windshields.

2. Now anybody can put information on the internet 

3. Not sure what you're trying to say here... 


1. Yes, and now...

2. This.

3. I am trying to say #2, and that the Dems used to feed the "f*** the man" that the populists feed on.

2.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 11, 2018, 12:18:29 am
Some of these people, I'd love the opportunity to confront face to face so I could kick their **** heads in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZuXO_M3O44

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christian-couple-baby-girl-starvation-dead-michigan-seth-welch-tatiana-fusari-mary-a8482311.html

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 11, 2018, 09:13:31 am
I watched the video.  What is the connection to the topic though?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 11, 2018, 10:06:25 am
Well, the guy's social media includes anti-vax stuff and he talks about doctors as "the priests of the medical cult".  I think people who refuse to get their children vaccinated because they think modern medicine is a big conspiracy of doctors and pharma companies are conspiritards just as surely as Alex Jones and people who think kids are being abducted and sent to a sex slave colony on Mars.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 11, 2018, 10:08:23 am
btw, here's Alex Jones and Robert David Steele talking about the secret sex slave colony on Mars.
https://www.space.com/37366-mars-slave-colony-alex-jones.html

https://i.imgur.com/u7JSub8.jpg

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 22, 2018, 12:20:42 am
Alex Jones compares being booted from Youtube etc to Jim Crow segregation:

Quote
“They don’t have a right to do this. This is discriminatory, like not letting black people eat at the lunch counters or ride on this bus. This is evil. This is wrong. Patriots and conservatives and nationalists are being persecuted while the left tries to use internet giant systems to bully us,” Jones said.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/alex-jones-infowars-de-platforming-like-racial-segregation/

Holy **** these people are stupid.


 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 22, 2018, 06:06:01 am

Holy **** these people are stupid.


 -k

This was bound to happen... public fora got dumber, government got more complicated, lying got worse...

How to fix ?

Needs something quick, alongside something substantial...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 26, 2018, 12:47:19 am
How to fix ?

Needs something quick, alongside something substantial...

Quickest way to get rid of Alex Jones: catch him watching transvestite ****.

Apparently the SUPER MALE VITALITY supplements have failed.

(https://i.imgur.com/NnTHwbT.jpg)

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 26, 2018, 06:45:41 am
Hmmmmm.... I'd like to believe it... anyway Trans women are women so liberals would say he was watching women... or... is it "gay" ?  Not sure...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 26, 2018, 11:42:09 am
Hmmmmm.... I'd like to believe it... anyway Trans women are women so liberals would say he was watching women... or... is it "gay" ?  Not sure...

I'm pretty sure that liberals aren't the target market for SUPER MALE VITALITY supplements, Michael.  I can only imagine that right now his listeners are wondering "if the supplements can't keep Alex from turning gay, what chance do the frogs have??"

Like, maybe Alex could try and explain it to his listeners, but I'm not sure they're the most open-minded group when it comes to gender identity politics. I can only imagine how Alex might sound trying to explain this situation to his audience.


"Okay, LISTEN.  I am SICK AND TIRED of the stuff you guys are saying about Marissa. Alright?  LISTEN. I am gonna explain this one more time. LISTEN! She might have a dong, but she identifies as a woman, alright? She's a woman. Alright?? So I was watching heterosexual sex. Got it?  Heterosexual. Now, some of you people out there are saying 'but Alex, Marissa is hung like a donkey'.  Doesn't matter, alright? A trans woman is still a woman. Get it?  She might have a dick bigger than your forearm, but she's a woman. So I wasn't watching gay ****. Wake up, people. Figure it out, okay? Listen, with a dick like that, Marissa probably uses SUPER MALE VITALITY herself. I mean, that girl is hung, alright? Listen, you people look at that girl and those sweet titties and you tell me that you wouldn't let a babe like that put her dick in you. Come on. Are you kidding me? It makes me GOD DAMN SICK to hear you people out there talking about Marissa like she's a circus freak! She's not a freak! Don't call her a SHEMALE! She's not a SHEMALE! She's a beautiful, beautiful woman! ALRIGHT? ALRIGHT?"

(https://i.imgur.com/0ClpJGx.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 26, 2018, 02:22:48 pm
I have no words for that, except to say that it's forboding.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on August 28, 2018, 05:14:55 pm
I wish attention whores like Alex Jones would stop getting the attention that they crave.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2018, 05:22:08 pm
I wish attention whores like Alex Jones would stop getting the attention that they crave.

Speaking of attention whores, Trump is now warning that there could be violence if the GOP lose the mid terms. He of course is pointing a finger at antifa while of course ignoring his swastika wearing, burning tiki torch waving fans who he seems to like. Is anybody going to pull the plug on that scum filled swamp down there?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 28, 2018, 05:58:52 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/secret-message-board-drives-pizzagate-style-harassment-campaign-small-businesses-n903696

Message Board sends people to harass businesses.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2018, 06:41:24 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/secret-message-board-drives-pizzagate-style-harassment-campaign-small-businesses-n903696

Message Board sends people to harass businesses.

This stuff would be laughable but of course it's actually quite scary, because people actually believe it. On a personal level I have an acquaintance who showed up among our littel group for a beer at the local one afternoon not long after the Orlando gay bar shooting suggesting it was all "fake news" because he didn't see any pictures of dead bodies. I thought he was laughing at the conspiracy theorists who were saying same, then I realized he was actually serious. I presented a couple of reality checks at him (49 names in every newspaper across the country, a quote in print from the Orlando chief of police, pictures of body bags being removed from the building) and non made a dent in his iron clad paranoia. It sent shivers down my spine that someone could be that easily led.   
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 30, 2018, 10:02:03 pm
It's definitely scary.  These people are insane.  The families of children who died in the Sandy Hook school massacre have been hounded into hiding by these disgusting idiots. There have been threats and attacks. These people are scum, they are vermin, they lack any decency or humanity, and they deserve the absolute worst that fate has in store for them.

Speaking of which, today Alex Jones lost his court bid to have the lawsuit thrown out. 

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on September 07, 2018, 05:24:04 am
Holy Crap this just made my day by 630 !

https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1037414684994007040
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 16, 2018, 04:06:27 am
The "QAnon" conspiracy theory has been having a tough time since the mid-term election.  This bunch of imbeciles is an offshoot of the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, and they believe that a guy named "Q" is giving them information about a top-secret, behind-the-scenes battle being waged to take down the globalist elite cabal of baby-eating Satanists.

Q had told them that a "red wave" was going to sweep America during the mid-term election. Obviously that didn't happen.

And Q has been telling them that Trump, Sessions, and Robert Mueller have all been working together on a grand plan to round up the evil cabalists.  Instead, Sessions got fired the day after the elections.

And now some of them are starting to question "The Plan".

https://www.salon.com/2018/11/15/qanons-true-believers-are-devastated-as-the-conspiracy-theory-goes-down-in-flames/


 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 24, 2018, 10:02:55 am
Alex Jones in his first movie role!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h37A9Qjxsvo

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on February 10, 2019, 05:59:15 am
Alex Jones comes on the Howard Stern Show to clear the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SI49TvLbzg

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on February 10, 2019, 08:04:37 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-conspiracy-theories/2019/01/17/0ef1b840-1818-11e9-88fe-f9f77a3bcb6c_story.html?utm_term=.25ab08786a63

These surprised me.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Omni on February 10, 2019, 10:58:23 pm
I guess conspiracy theorists have always been around, but it seems to me they are more prevalent, and more ridiculous nowadays: "no planes hit the WTC, no one was killed in the gay bar in Orlando, Global warming is somehow the government bribing scientists, etc."  And I find it frightening but perhaps it's only because internet communications allowing them to have a louder voice so we hear more of it. Unfortunately I suspect those less educated may buy into it these days.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on February 11, 2019, 05:50:16 am
I don't know if I believe it.  There are much easier ways to spread the stupid today.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 27, 2020, 10:31:08 pm
A group of morons has apparently "occupied" Ottawa.  "The Canadian Revolution" seems to be a mash-up of several conspiracy theories, including Q-anon stuff, coronavirus conspiracy stuff, 5g conspiracy stuff, and "Free Man On The Land" stuff.

https://capitalcurrent.ca/unhappy-campers-protest-liberal-government-covid-19-measures/

They have a website!

https://www.thecanadianrevolution.org/

They apparently tried to do a "citizens arrest" of the Prime Minister.

https://twitter.com/nolifeneet/status/1287221627642675206

(spoiler: they didn't get him.)


 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2020, 03:33:11 am
I don't doubt conspiracies exist.  I am actually a conspiracy theorist to some level, but only when it's plausible and there is a clear and viable motive. 

What freaks me out about the COVID conspiracy theory is the sheer impossibility of it.  I mean, perhaps it's plausible that the virus have started in a lab.  Only a handful of people would ever know the truth and have a motive for covering it up.

But that's where plausibility and motive end.  It's completely implausible that the politicians and medical industry throughout the world would come together and make up crap about a virus just so 'government overreach' can stop people from getting haircuts and going to concerts.  Not to mention, tank their economies to do so.

And the motive?  To vaccinate people and take their information when it's so readily available through technology and medical records.  It blows me away how stupid people can be.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on July 28, 2020, 09:28:57 am
I’ve given up trying to figure out what makes these people tick. They will ignore every piece of scientific evidence, chase every crackpot conspiracy and then run around calling everyone else sheep.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on July 28, 2020, 09:33:06 am
I’ve given up trying to figure out what makes these people tick. They will ignore every piece of scientific evidence, chase every crackpot conspiracy and then run around calling everyone else sheep.

And they existed before but they were ignored.  We have to get back to there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Boges on July 28, 2020, 10:20:51 am
Social Media feeds were swamped with a video of "doctors" claiming HDQ is the cure for Covid-19.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/28/tech/facebook-youtube-coronavirus/index.html

Quote
(CNN Business)A video featuring a group of doctors making false and dubious claims related to the coronavirus was removed by Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube after going viral online Monday.

The video, published by the right-wing media outlet Breitbart News, featured a group of people wearing white lab coats calling themselves "America's Frontline Doctors" staging a press conference in front of the US Supreme Court in Washington, DC.
President Trump shared multiple versions of the video with his 84 million Twitter followers Monday night despite the dubious claims running counter to his administration's own public health experts. Spokespersons for the White House did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

Good on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter etc for scrubbing it for their sites. Don Jr. was even suspended from Twitter for sharing the video.

Sadly this kind of "censorship" only inflames the conspiracy minded.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on July 28, 2020, 01:12:07 pm
Social Media feeds were swamped with a video of "doctors" claiming HDQ is the cure for Covid-19.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/28/tech/facebook-youtube-coronavirus/index.html

Good on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter etc for scrubbing it for their sites. Don Jr. was even suspended from Twitter for sharing the video.

Sadly this kind of "censorship" only inflames the conspiracy minded.

They are looking for reasons to be inflamed so who cares. Anyone with a whacko conspiracy can lead them around by the nose.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2020, 01:30:25 pm
They are looking for reasons to be inflamed so who cares.

Actually I care in this particular case.  When people become anti-vaccine and anti-mask because they believe conspiracies, it endangers all of us.

I'm friends with my hairdresser on FB and I had to unfollow her because of all the covidiot posts she was making calling people sheep.  If it was just her I'd brush it off but every time she had 10-20 of her friends like her posts and agree.

I haven't had a haircut since March but I'm not sure I want to give a covidiot my money anymore.  These people are ruining the world, we can't just brush them off.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2020, 02:03:07 pm
George Soros is getting old.  A new boogieman is needed before Soros is gone.

In comes Bill Gates. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on July 28, 2020, 03:15:13 pm
Actually I care in this particular case.  When people become anti-vaccine and anti-mask because they believe conspiracies, it endangers all of us.

I'm friends with my hairdresser on FB and I had to unfollow her because of all the covidiot posts she was making calling people sheep.  If it was just her I'd brush it off but every time she had 10-20 of her friends like her posts and agree.

I haven't had a haircut since March but I'm not sure I want to give a covidiot my money anymore.  These people are ruining the world, we can't just brush them off.

I’m not sure what you can do about people who let anyone with a conspiracy theory lead them around by the nose and then call other people sheep. They actually do concern me and I think they will make this pandemic last a lot longer than it should. i would find it very difficult not to push back, friend or no friend.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2020, 07:07:43 pm
I’m not sure what you can do about people who let anyone with a conspiracy theory lead them around by the nose and then call other people sheep. They actually do concern me and I think they will make this pandemic last a lot longer than it should. i would find it very difficult not to push back, friend or no friend.

I asked once if she really believed it but when she gave me the 100 emoji, I didn't think it's worth pursuing.  She's Italian and she has family in Northern Italy.  If she still thinks it's hyped after everything Italy went through there is not anything I can say that will change her mind.

Her prices are great and she gets me professional hair products, but I'm seriously conflicted about going back to her. 

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on July 28, 2020, 07:37:33 pm
 :D I had to look up 100 emoji.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on August 21, 2020, 10:54:30 am
Mom survived COVID and given the "I told you so's" near the end she was probably feeling a little smug. We knew mom was a little out there on the fringe and going thru her stuff has sure been interesting given the times.

She left us a supply of Survival Seeds 4 Patriots, 40 L of distilled water, enough freeze dried banana chips and trail mix to last thru the next Apocalypse, a solar power battery charger with about 1000 batteries and a wind-up radio. There was even a promotional voucher for 25% off bump-stocks and ammo.

We just about had kittens when we found some old gold stocks that my grandmother had purchased back in the 30's but I guess they went bust so...I guess we'll have to make do with banana chips and trail mix.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on August 21, 2020, 12:06:08 pm
Make sure the company didn't get bought by a bigger one before you tear those stocks up.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on August 21, 2020, 01:54:47 pm
They're like little treasures in the family keepsake collection now. I guess I better have a closer look at these fruit company stocks Mom bought too.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on August 21, 2020, 01:58:38 pm
I guess I better have a closer look at these fruit company stocks Mom bought too.

"Lieutenant Dan got me invested in some kind of fruit company. So then I got a call from him, saying we don't have to worry about money no more. And I said, that's good!"  -Forrest Gump.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on August 21, 2020, 02:49:53 pm
I still have my BRIC shares.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: JuniperRose on September 18, 2020, 09:41:52 am
An exciting new conspiracy has emerged (at MLW).  It's center of operations is where Muhammed resides, at the Days Inn in Lakewood Ohio.  Powerful people are involved and if we could follow the trail of faces .... 

i'd like to tell you more, but when I click on the thread (3 hours old, 20 replies) I find it has been removed.  The Deep State at work! 

Or are the mods at MLW also getting a little tired of conspiratards?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on September 18, 2020, 09:52:52 am
Those are our biggest customers.

Yes, I am still a limited-power mod over there...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 08:39:40 pm
An exciting new conspiracy has emerged (at MLW).  It's center of operations is where Muhammed resides, at the Days Inn in Lakewood Ohio.  Powerful people are involved and if we could follow the trail of faces .... 
Faces? Maybe that was a typo and you meant feces.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 23, 2020, 01:30:02 pm
Alex Jones is hungry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvZ-yGBJXNk

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on December 23, 2020, 02:03:14 pm
Alex Jones is hungry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvZ-yGBJXNk

 -k

Don't make him hungry. You wouldn't like him when he's hungry.

Remind sme of this: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/InfoWars-Alex-Jones-custody-chili-for-lunch-11081124.php
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 02:24:10 pm
I saw this when it came out.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 02:44:35 pm
Alex Jones' complete post-secondary education history on wikipedia:  "After graduating, Jones briefly attended Austin Community College but dropped out."

Must have been frustrated by being graded on facts.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 11, 2021, 12:07:23 pm
The woman in the Mandalorian was fired for her crackpot conspiracy nonsense that Republicans are treated like the Jews were under the Nazis.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7634131/gina-carano-fired-disney-star-wars-holocaust-mandalorian/

Cancel culture run amok, I tells ya!!   Can’t even claim to be a victim and minimize the torture and deaths of 6 million people without consequences!  What’s the world coming to???
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2021, 12:11:08 pm
The woman in the Mandalorian was fired for her crackpot conspiracy nonsense that Republicans are treated like the Jews were under the Nazis.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7634131/gina-carano-fired-disney-star-wars-holocaust-mandalorian/

Cancel culture run amok, I tells ya!!   Can’t even claim to be a victim and minimize the torture and deaths of 6 million people without consequences!  What’s the world coming to???

Clearly a Taylor Greene voter.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 11, 2021, 12:16:19 pm
The woman in the Mandalorian was fired for her crackpot conspiracy nonsense that Republicans are treated like the Jews were under the Nazis.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7634131/gina-carano-fired-disney-star-wars-holocaust-mandalorian/

Cancel culture run amok, I tells ya!!   Can’t even claim to be a victim and minimize the torture and deaths of 6 million people without consequences!  What’s the world coming to???

I posted about this here (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/the-progressive-thread!/?message=74482). It will never not be funny to me that people will throw away buckets of cash because they can't stop posting. But I'm sure going on the Rubin Report and doing Koch-brothers backed straight to DVD movies with Kevin Sorbo is almost as lucrative as Disney bucks.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2021, 12:47:14 pm
I'm always astonished at the ignorance of people who can equate anything that is going on in their lives to what happened in the Holocaust.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on February 11, 2021, 01:28:57 pm
I'm always astonished at the ignorance of people who can equate anything that is going on in their lives to what happened in the Holocaust.
Is it some sort of counter-Godwinism?  Maybe it stems from notions people have about Nazi's being left-wingers because they use the word socialist in their name.  I like the one that maintains if you reach far enough around in either direction left and right merge and become one and the same...probably just a sphincter of some kind.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2021, 03:51:57 pm
Is it some sort of counter-Godwinism?  Maybe it stems from notions people have about Nazi's being left-wingers because they use the word socialist in their name.  I like the one that maintains if you reach far enough around in either direction left and right merge and become one and the same...probably just a sphincter of some kind.

I don't know what it is other than just plain ignorance or lack of thought. Frankly I find trivializing the Holocaust by Carano comparing it to her own meager issues is pathetic. But then, she isn't the only one and some Trump opponents haven't been above making Hitler comparisons.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 11, 2021, 04:15:05 pm
I don't know what it is other than just plain ignorance or lack of thought. Frankly I find trivializing the Holocaust by Carano comparing it to her own meager issues is pathetic. But then, she isn't the only one and some Trump opponents haven't been above making Hitler comparisons.

While the Trump = Hitler comments are rather dumb, I don’t think they rose to the same level as trivializing the torture and deaths of 6 million Jews.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2021, 04:41:55 pm
While the Trump = Hitler comments are rather dumb, I don’t think they rose to the same level as trivializing the torture and deaths of 6 million Jews.

Comparisons were made between Nazi camps and the camps containing the refugee kids. Those camps and separating the kids from their parents are bad but there is no comparison. Trump = Hitler is ridiculous. For starters, Hitler was a decorated war veteran :)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 11, 2021, 06:54:54 pm
Comparisons were made between Nazi camps and the camps containing the refugee kids. Those camps and separating the kids from their parents are bad but there is no comparison. Trump = Hitler is ridiculous. For starters, Hitler was a decorated war veteran :)

Yes, the camps comparison was bad hyperbole too...    but at least there was an actual victim in that case that they were trying to draw attention to!   This actress was trying to say that Republicans (her) are treated like Jews under the Nazis.   Oh poor her! 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 11, 2021, 07:54:07 pm
Comparisons were made between Nazi camps and the camps containing the refugee kids. Those camps and separating the kids from their parents are bad but there is no comparison. Trump = Hitler is ridiculous. For starters, Hitler was a decorated war veteran :)

There's a lot more commonality between the border cmsps and Nazi concentration camps (not death camps) and Trump's authoritarian nationalism and fascism than there is between GOP freaks being shunned and jews being stripped of legal rights, dehumanized and eventually exterminated.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2021, 08:42:14 pm
There's a lot more commonality between the border cmsps and Nazi concentration camps (not death camps) and Trump's authoritarian nationalism and fascism than there is between GOP freaks being shunned and jews being stripped of legal rights, dehumanized and eventually exterminated.

Basically all Nazi concentration camps were death camps. They may not all have been executed, they were just killed off by disease, starvation or worked to death.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 12, 2021, 12:33:06 am
Yes, the camps comparison was bad hyperbole too...    but at least there was an actual victim in that case that they were trying to draw attention to!   This actress was trying to say that Republicans (her) are treated like Jews under the Nazis.   Oh poor her!

Anti-vaxxers are saying the same thing these days.  One said to me "I bet you would love to round up all of us who don't want to get vaccinated and burn us".  Very stable guy.

These are the same people who call liberals snowflakes, triggered and perpetually offended.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 12, 2021, 07:21:11 am
Or are the mods at MLW also getting a little tired of conspiratards?
Even if I can't stand alt-right conspiracy maniacs, could we stop appending "-tard" to things as an insult? It's just so childish and stigmatizing for people with disabilities.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 12, 2021, 07:25:28 am
Those are our biggest customers.
You can't say I didn't warn you ages ago about the direction of the forum with the moderation approach. I was involved with a "free" discussion forum years ago and they all inevitably become a bastion for intolerance. Tolerating intolerance gives people with regressive views a safe place to congregate, so they flood the gates and overrun these sites. You can't reason or rationalize with them because they are not having discussions in good faith. If they used reason and rationality or understood the philosophy of ethics, they wouldn't be bigoted in the first place. You thought I was being chicken little and exercising hyperbole but look at where that forum is today compared to 10 years ago. It is exactly what I said it would become.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on February 12, 2021, 08:20:00 am
1. You can't say I didn't warn you ages ago about the direction of the forum with the moderation approach.

2. I was involved with a "free" discussion forum years ago and they all inevitably become a bastion for intolerance. Tolerating intolerance gives people with regressive views a safe place to congregate, so they flood the gates and overrun these sites.

3. You can't reason or rationalize with them because they are not having discussions in good faith. If they used reason and rationality or understood the philosophy of ethics, they wouldn't be bigoted in the first place.

4. You thought I was being chicken little and exercising hyperbole but look at where that forum is today compared to 10 years ago. It is exactly what I said it would become.
1. I don't remember being warned, but I was always concerned that the level of dialogue would deteriorate if we didn't find a way to contain the conspiracy virus.  Of course, there's a line to be drawn with regards to expression vs. trolling and for my part I pushed for rules that would draw that line in a way to encourage good information.   That's as much as I will post now about my relationship with policy on MLW.

2. We are discovering a McLuhanesque lesson: we are contained within a channel, which doesn't simply convey "free speech" as the right was envisioned.  We are like captive fish who have realized that we are in a tank.  So we learn that the tank needs to be cleaned, the garden needs to be tended etc.  If "freedom of speech" drives out 1/2 the voices then it subverts the reason why we establish it: to allow for a meritocratic market of ideas.

3. They are not creatures of the age of reason.  They are interested in winning and imposing their culture on others.   I get it, because I start to feel that way with them too sometimes.

4. I doubt that I thought that.  I may have said "we'll see..." but that doesn't mean that I felt you were wrong or felt it wasn't a danger to happen.  I don't really remember this discussion, though, so if you have other ideas I'm open to hear it.   
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: bcsapper on February 12, 2021, 09:22:06 am
You can't say I didn't warn you ages ago about the direction of the forum with the moderation approach. I was involved with a "free" discussion forum years ago and they all inevitably become a bastion for intolerance. Tolerating intolerance gives people with regressive views a safe place to congregate, so they flood the gates and overrun these sites. You can't reason or rationalize with them because they are not having discussions in good faith. If they used reason and rationality or understood the philosophy of ethics, they wouldn't be bigoted in the first place. You thought I was being chicken little and exercising hyperbole but look at where that forum is today compared to 10 years ago. It is exactly what I said it would become.

But that's where the fun is.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 09:40:55 am
Basically all Nazi concentration camps were death camps. They may not all have been executed, they were just killed off by disease, starvation or worked to death.

And the border camp operators rip children from their families, cage them, subjecting them to disease, starvation rations and rampant sexual and physical abuse based on their identity. I'm not sure how many boxes a thing has to tick before it's safe to draw concentration camp analogies.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 11:19:02 am
And the border camp operators rip children from their families, cage them, subjecting them to disease, starvation rations and rampant sexual and physical abuse based on their identity. I'm not sure how many boxes a thing has to tick before it's safe to draw concentration camp analogies.

I think your knowledge of concentration camps is somewhat lacking.

This is what British and Canadian troops found when the liberated Bergen Belsen. Bergan Belsen was not a "death camp."

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Mass_Grave_3_at_Bergen-Belsen_concentration_camp.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Bergen_Belsen_Liberation_03.jpg)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 11:25:53 am
I think your knowledge of concentration camps is somewhat lacking.

This is what British and Canadian troops found when the liberated Bergen Belsen. Bergan Belsen was not a "death camp."

You think wrong.

But what's your point? That we can only make comparisons to concentration camps if people are literally being gassed or worked to death?

Why even bother learning history if you aren't going to learn anything from it?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 11:46:35 am
You think wrong.

But what's your point? That we can only make comparisons to concentration camps if people are literally being gassed or worked to death?

Why even bother learning history if you aren't going to learn anything from it?

Clearly the comparison is hyperbole. 

But at least they were fighting for victims at the border and not their own perceived victimhood.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 12:05:46 pm
You think wrong.

But what's your point? That we can only make comparisons to concentration camps if people are literally being gassed or worked to death?

Why even bother learning history if you aren't going to learn anything from it?

I think putting kids in those camps is pretty terrible but equating them with Nazi concentration camps is neither accurate or constructive.

A better analogy might  be the camps used by the British during the Boer War or even our worst residential schools.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 12:15:04 pm
Clearly the comparison is hyperbole. 



It's a clear example of Godwins Law.
We put Japanese Canadians in camps during WW2.

A Democrat government under Roosevelt put Japanese Americans in camps as well.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 12:17:29 pm
I think putting kids in those camps is pretty terrible but equating them with Nazi concentration camps is neither accurate or constructive.

A better analogy might  be the camps used by the British during the Boer War or even our worst residential schools.

The whole point of the comparison was never about drawing an equivalence between the migrant internment camps and the death camps, but to highlight the similarities between how the demonization and marginalization of Jews led to the Holocaust and Trump/GOP's campaign to demonize and marginalize immigrants. So while the migrant camps might have more in common with the other examples you cite in terms of their conditions and intent, they fit just as well with the Nazi camps when viewed as part of a political project.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 12:21:53 pm
The whole point of the comparison was never about drawing an equivalence between the migrant internment camps and the death camps, but to highlight the similarities between how the demonization and marginalization of Jews led to the Holocaust and Trump/GOP's campaign to demonize and marginalize immigrants. So while the migrant camps might have more in common with the other examples you cite in terms of their conditions and intent, they fit just as well with the Nazi camps when viewed as part of a political project.

That’s what the apologists say about the actress’ tweet.  It was never a comparison, it was about drawing the equivalence of demonizing a group to get their neighbours to hate them.

Same problem with both those hyperbolic comparisons.... 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 12:23:49 pm
It's a clear example of Godwins Law.
We put Japanese Canadians in camps during WW2.

A Democrat government under Roosevelt put Japanese Americans in camps as well.

That would have been a better comparison of the kids in cages, I think, despite the fact that they weren’t their own citizens.

Regardless, both are a horrific stain on America as a nation.  (And Canada, for the Japanese internments).
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 12:31:57 pm
That would have been a better comparison of the kids in cages, I think, despite the fact that they weren’t their own citizens.

Regardless, both are a horrific stain on America as a nation.  (And Canada, for the Japanese internments).

Yet it's Hitler and the Jews seems to be the go to comparison in spite of the fact it is the least accurate. The world is full of drama queens.

I think I mentioned before that I lived in Steveston for a while during the fifties and a lot of my school mates and friends were Japanese. Their parents and grand parents came back and started over after being stripped of their homes and boats and shipped off to the interior in 1942. Looking back, I'm surprised at how little bitterness there seemed to be, or maybe they just kept it to themselves and didn't involve the kids.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 12:33:52 pm
That’s what the apologists say about the actress’ tweet. It was never a comparison, it was about drawing the equivalence of demonizing a group to get their neighbours to hate them.

Same problem with both those hyperbolic comparisons....


No because one actually has some validity and the other is just deranged whining.

There's lots of overlap between Nazi policies towards Jews in the '30s and the U.S. government's policies towards undocumented migrants. There's none between MAGA people being shunned or mocked and the state-facilitated campaign of demonization and indoctrination to stir up hatred against Jews.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 12, 2021, 12:35:23 pm
I find it patently absurd that we are splitting hairs about descriptors.

Children were systematically ripped away from their parents and people were locked in literal cages without due process of the law nor adequate food and care. These actions were widespread and systematic along the southern border. This absolutely meets the definition of crimes against humanity as set out by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Yet we want to talk about whether comparing them to Nazi camps is more accurate or if they were just comparable to lesser concentration camps (like the starvation of people in the Gulags during the famine)?

Making this an argument about semantics is disgustingly dehumanizing and ignores the entire problem altogether. And that in a nutshell is why I have a difficult time taking topics on this forum very seriously anymore.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 12:36:54 pm
Yet it's Hitler and the Jews seems to be the go to comparison in spite of the fact it is the least accurate. The world is full of drama queens.

But it's the best known, which is why it's powerful. How many people are aware of the Japanese internments or Boer War camps or the Trail of tears compared to the Holocaust?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 12:40:18 pm
I find it patently absurd that we are splitting hairs about descriptors.

Children were systematically ripped away from their parents and people were locked in literal cages without due process of the law nor adequate food and care. These actions were widespread and systematic along the southern border. This absolutely meets the definition of crimes against humanity as set out by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Yet we want to talk about whether comparing them to Nazi camps is more accurate or if they were just comparable to lesser concentration camps (like the starvation of people in the Gulags during the famine)?

Making this an argument about semantics is disgustingly dehumanizing and ignores the entire problem altogether. And that in a nutshell is why I have a difficult time taking topics on this forum very seriously anymore.

I disagree, I think the semantic argument is an important one to have to counter bad faith arguments like "oh so you think she's dumb for comparing MAGA folks to the Jews in 1930s Germany but you're ok with comparing border camps to concentration camps?"

Indeed, having the opportunity to highlight why the latter comparison is valid is useful to illustrate how evil the U.S.'s immigration policies are.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 12:51:33 pm
But it's the best known, which is why it's powerful. How many people are aware of the Japanese internments or Boer War camps or the Trail of tears compared to the Holocaust?

It may be the best known but it's still bullshit. Using it as a comparison just trivializes what the Holocaust really was.

It's Godwin's Law in action.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 01:44:52 pm
It may be the best known but it's still bullshit. Using it as a comparison just trivializes what the Holocaust really was.

So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

Quote
It's Godwin's Law in action.

LOL (https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1141125878874877953?lang=en)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 01:57:01 pm
If nothing else, this Carano controversy led me to learn that they overdubbed all her dialogue in Haywire with another actress because Carano was so terrible at the actual acting parts, which makes sense given her performance in the Mandalorian is more wooden than the damn puppet's.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 02:00:18 pm
So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

Well, are they similar to Nazi concentration camps?  If not, then no...  maybe don’t use that as an analogy because it doesn’t suit it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 02:15:45 pm
Well, are they similar to Nazi concentration camps?  If not, then no...  maybe don’t use that as an analogy because it doesn’t suit it.

Hmm, what could a system of taking a vulnerable out-group, demonizing them, warehousing them in camps and subjecting them to inhumane treatment to advance a racist conception of the national good have in common with the Nazi concentration camps? 'tis a mystery.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 02:44:51 pm
So when would it be appropriate to invoke the holocaust? I mean, China is shipping Uighurs to camps for "re-education" but I suppose you can't use the H word there because they aren't actually gassing them with Zyklon B.

Placing the holocaust off limits is gatekeeping bullshit.

LOL (https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1141125878874877953?lang=en)

You can't evoke the Holocaust because there has ever been such a case of killing on an industrial scale as the Polish death camps. Camps like Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald were in Germany and were not extermination camps. The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Maybe we could equate the Uighur re-education camps with Nazi camps if we really knew what was going on there but we hear a lot of claims about them that can't be verified. Some of the Soviet Gulags might be compared to Nazi camps because we know they had similar fatality rates.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 03:00:13 pm
You can't evoke the Holocaust because there has ever been such a case of killing on an industrial scale as the Polish death camps. Camps like Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Buchenwald were in Germany and were not extermination camps. The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Except the death rate is not the basis of the comparison.

It's worth noting the concentration camps you mention were up and running almost a decade before the Final Solution was formulated.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 12, 2021, 03:18:10 pm
The people who died there were not just Jews and they died from malnutrition, disease and forced labour.

Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 03:25:30 pm
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?

Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on February 12, 2021, 04:04:49 pm
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?
Qualms can be eliminated.

Quote
The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, in which they had to administer electric shocks to a "learner". These fake electric shocks gradually increased to levels that would have been fatal had they been real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

All our lives we've heard the question 'what compelled people to follow a monster as bad as Hitler as easily as they did' and most people have assumed that whatever it was it had to do with fascism and political ideology, of Hitler's and the Nazi's. Milgram's experiment seems to suggest these had nothing to do with it.

It maybe gauche to equate Trump with Hitler but that said it was a similarly stoked willingness that made the attack by Trump's mob against Congress possible.  I think it's more accurate to equate Trump's followers with Hitler's. The chicken and egg question is whether it's the willingness to behave badly or the willingness to stoke that behaviour that's more deplorable.  In a democracy such as the US I'd have to say it's the voting public that bears the greater load.

We should, at times, be cautious about wishing for governments to actually take their cue from electors - a positive feedback loop from cranky electors long conditioned to expect that governments who say they'll crack-down and get tough will practice what they promise might result in things like harsher than necessary internment camps and justice systems more committed to vengeance than justice.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2021, 04:37:59 pm
Yes, the camps comparison was bad hyperbole too...    but at least there was an actual victim in that case that they were trying to draw attention to!   This actress was trying to say that Republicans (her) are treated like Jews under the Nazis.   Oh poor her!

That's not quite what she said.  Read what she said, and then read it again. She didn't say conservatives are treated like Jews under Nazis, she said this is how it starts, by the mob being encouraged to go after others they don't like with hate.  I've even heard a bunch of people say she was saying anti-semitic stuff, which is the exact opposite of what she was saying.

I've followed her on social media for years long before her Star Wars stuff because, well, she's really hot and like Kimmy I want to bear her children.  This was among the least offensive political things she has posted.  She has made posts questioning masks, lockdowns, rushed vaccine safety, and something about election fraud on Nov. 5.  So in other words, she's a typical US conservative GOP supporter.  Some of these tweets are ill informed that I don't agree with, some of them are in fact dumb and I shake my head.

She's a latina so she's not a white nationalist and never gave any support or defense to the rioters on Jan. 6.  She in fact has posted a lot about love and compassion in the face of all the hate she's been getting over the last year, as well as a lot of defiant posts about not shutting up just because her political views aren't PC.  One can go scroll her IG page right now.

She wasn't fired just for this post.  She has been a "PR problem" for Disney for months now with users on twitter calling for her to be fired for her tweets.  They were looking for an excuse to get rid of her.  She was left out of a poster for the Mandalorian posted in Dec. even though she's been one of the main characters since Season 1. https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2021/1/25/22248392/cara-dune-gina-carano-replaced

This is about PR and profits, and nothing more.  In spite of some rabid SJW's at Lucasfilm, Disney has been sucking up to the Chinese government despite their ongoing genocide of Muslim minorities and Hong Kong crack downs etc because 1.4 billion consumers means a lot of sold movie tickets.  Disney even shrank the black character FInn on The Force Awakens poster in China because apparently they don't much like blacks in China:  https://variety.com/2015/film/news/star-wars-china-poster-controversy-john-boyega-1201653494/

Just like the NBA and every other corporation known to mankind, Disney isn't going to care about ethics and morals unless it hits them in the pocketbook.  Gina knew where this could be headed, but was unwilling to compromise her values for a paycheck, unlike Disney.  That's her decision.  As I said, I don't always agree with her politically, but I respect her for at least having the courage of her convictions.

Elvis always refused to make comments about politics because this is what happens.  Half the public is going to disagree with you and turn on you, so it's a bad business decision.  Ah well.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 04:38:28 pm
Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!

Tell me: what purpose do you think this kind of hair-splitting accomplishes and whom does it serve?

Like user wilber, you're demonstrating a profound misunderstanding of the basis of this particular comparison, which is not about comparing the degree of harm done or lives lost, but seeks to draw equivalency between the motives of the camp creators, the purposes of the camps and the morality thereof.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 12, 2021, 04:46:18 pm
That's not quite what she said.  Read what she said, and then read it again. She didn't say conservatives are treated like Jews under Nazis, she said this is how it starts, by the mob being encouraged to go after others they don't like with hate.

Here's what she posted:

Quote
Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors…even by children. Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?

(emphasis mine)

The answer for this walking advertisement of the perils of CTE is "there's a big **** different between a government indoctrinating an entire nation into hating a specific group because of their religion and race and people roasting dumb dumbs on social media for their chosen political beliefs."

Quote
This is about PR and profits, and nothing more.

LOL no **** sherlock.

Quote
Just like the NBA and every other corporation known to mankind, Disney isn't going to care about ethics and morals unless it hits them in the pocketbook.  Gina knew where this could be headed, but was unwilling to compromise her values for a paycheck, unlike Disney.  That's her decision.  As I said, I don't always agree with her politically, but I respect her for at least having the courage of her convictions.

What's hilarious is she never was asked to compromise her values, all she had to do was stop posting and she couldn't even do that. Dumb as a rock, but a rock is probably a batter actor.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2021, 05:27:10 pm
1. I don't remember being warned, but I was always concerned that the level of dialogue would deteriorate if we didn't find a way to contain the conspiracy virus.  Of course, there's a line to be drawn with regards to expression vs. trolling and for my part I pushed for rules that would draw that line in a way to encourage good information.   That's as much as I will post now about my relationship with policy on MLW.

MLW turned out the way it did because Charles is a giant **** and a micro-managing control-freak.  And so rightfully this place was created.  But we invited mostly the leftwingers over here and left the others who defended people like BC.  So now we have our 2 echo chamber forums yay!  "Team Charles/BC" vs "Team I Hate Charles/BC".  I mostly post here because, well, Charles and BC are d!cks and their apologists can lick my taint.  My taint I tellz ya!

Quote
3. They are not creatures of the age of reason.  They are interested in winning and imposing their culture on others.   I get it, because I start to feel that way with them too sometimes.

This place is no different.  2 sides of the same coin.  MLW is dominated by rightwing racist conspiracy arseholes, and this place is filled with spiteful self-righteous leftwing arseholes.  Do you want to argue with a cattle-rancher from Alberta or a hippie dopesmoker from BC?  Take your pick!

Oh and you can tell who are the spiteful self-righteous leftwing arseholes here by who gives a thumbs-down to this post.  Just watch!  Their sh!t don't stink, no sir!  I always feel so loved here, it's a big happy family of intellectual tolerance.  But don't worry Michael, I still love you.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2021, 05:36:14 pm
If nothing else, this Carano controversy led me to learn that they overdubbed all her dialogue in Haywire with another actress because Carano was so terrible at the actual acting parts, which makes sense given her performance in the Mandalorian is more wooden than the damn puppet's.

She was hired because she is tough and super hot, definitely not for her acting skills.  She is, as you say, a bad actress. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 12, 2021, 05:37:39 pm
Ummm....   so they would have been comparable if they were much, much worse? 

Sure.  Granted!  Thanks for that!   Damn Trump almost Nazi camps, but not quite!

So we can't say that there were similarities between the two regimes because the outcomes were different... but it's not relevant to point out that the outcomes were different for reasons that had nothing to do with the regime.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 05:40:32 pm
Except the death rate is not the basis of the comparison.

It's worth noting the concentration camps you mention were up and running almost a decade before the Final Solution was formulated.

Well what is the basis, simply that people were put in camps?

The only thing that might be considered close to equating Hitler's Germany is Pol Pot's Cambodia.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 05:48:47 pm


“Canada was fighting Hitler in WWII while being exactly the same as Hitler by putting the Japanese into camps.”

That would be a fair analogy, according to some here.  And yet, while both were terrible, one was much, much worse.

Canada was very bad to the Japanese-Canadians, but they weren’t Hitler levels of bad. 

That’s the problem with saying America caging up migrant kids is the same as the Jews being put into camps by the Nazis. 

It just isn’t.   Words matter.  Bad analogies that rely on hyperbole actually wreck your argument.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 12, 2021, 05:51:47 pm
So we can't say that there were similarities between the two regimes because the outcomes were different... but it's not relevant to point out that the outcomes were different for reasons that had nothing to do with the regime.

If you think hyperbole makes your case, then go for it.   I disagree.  I think it hurts the argument and minimizes what happened to the Jewish people.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2021, 06:15:13 pm
Do you think the Trump administration and their agents would've had any qualms about the detainees dying under similar circumstances if they weren't subject to so much media scrutiny?

It's hard to deny their callousness but I don't believe that would be their intent.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2021, 06:20:08 pm
What's hilarious is she never was asked to compromise her values, all she had to do was stop posting and she couldn't even do that. Dumb as a rock, but a rock is probably a batter actor.

Well that's not hateful or intolerant towards her at all.

They told her to STFU and obey the Hollywood groupthink.  The alternative was being fired because the twitter mob was coming after her head.  Meanwhile, the SJW's that run Lucasfilm mouth off with all sorts of political nonsense on their twitter accounts, including insulting fans, and nothing ever happens:  https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2020/12/28/22203209/star-wars-theory-youtube-lucasfilm-pablo-hidalgo-controversy.

People call for them to get fired too.  Who gives a hoot, just go make good movies.  Twitter is a really toxic place.  Society has become really annoying.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 13, 2021, 01:38:02 am
It's hard to deny their callousness but I don't believe that would be their intent.

It wasn't Hitler's either prior to 1941, however, people died of mistreatment anyway (as you said in the post to which I was responding).

My point is that if there wasn't so much media and social media coverage of the border detainees, is it that much of a stretch that many detainees would've died of malnutrition and mistreatment as well?

They were raping and sterilizing even with all the attention.  Good grief, imagine if nobody was looking.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2021, 06:56:47 pm
It wasn't Hitler's either prior to 1941, however, people died of mistreatment anyway (as you said in the post to which I was responding).

My point is that if there wasn't so much media and social media coverage of the border detainees, is it that much of a stretch that many detainees would've died of malnutrition and mistreatment as well?

They were raping and sterilizing even with all the attention.  Good grief, imagine if nobody was looking.

A lot of things have been alleged but we don't really know.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/09/16/mass-hysterectomies-ice/
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 14, 2021, 11:52:12 am
Well what is the basis, simply that people were put in camps?

The only thing that might be considered close to equating Hitler's Germany is Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Mass detention of a demonized minority without trial or recourse, based on a group identity for the furtherance of a goal of restoring national greatness?

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 14, 2021, 12:47:34 pm
Mass detention of a demonized minority without trial or recourse, based on a group identity for the furtherance of a goal of restoring national greatness?

Yup.  Still not the same as Nazi death camps.   
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 01:19:08 pm
Yup.  Still not the same as Nazi death camps.

Good thing no one has made that comparison.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 15, 2021, 01:38:30 pm
Mass detention of a demonized minority without trial or recourse, based on a group identity for the furtherance of a goal of restoring national greatness?

You mean like what we did to the Japanese in WW2?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 01:39:44 pm
You mean like what we did to the Japanese in WW2?

Sure that's a valid comparison too. Do you think that helps your case here?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 01:43:30 pm

“Canada was fighting Hitler in WWII while being exactly the same as Hitler by putting the Japanese into camps.”

That would be a fair analogy, according to some here.  And yet, while both were terrible, one was much, much worse.

Canada was very bad to the Japanese-Canadians, but they weren’t Hitler levels of bad. 

That’s the problem with saying America caging up migrant kids is the same as the Jews being put into camps by the Nazis. 

It just isn’t.   Words matter.  Bad analogies that rely on hyperbole actually wreck your argument.

Except the argument is not that the border camps are exactly the same as Nazi camps. The problem, then, is not the analogy but with people who are incapable of parsing it.


Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 15, 2021, 01:56:49 pm
You mean like what we did to the Japanese in WW2?

They did the exact same thing to Germans in Canada in WW2.  It's weird they never talk about that.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 15, 2021, 02:09:51 pm
You mean like what we did to the Japanese in WW2?

Consider the motives though.  One was based on an ongoing war and a perceived threat (perceived being the key word), the other was just for keeping an undesirable ethnic group out. 

In that sense detainment camps have more in common with Nazi camps than internment camps.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 15, 2021, 02:14:46 pm
They did the exact same thing to Germans in Canada in WW2.  It's weird they never talk about that.

Only the ones considered a risk. All Germans who immigrated after 1922 were required to register. Out of the 16,000 who were registered 850 were interned.

21,000 Japanese were interned, 77% were British subjects, 60% were born in Canada. They weren't allowed to return to their old communities on the coast until 1949.

 Not even close to the same thing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 15, 2021, 02:16:03 pm
Consider the motives though.  One was based on an ongoing war and a perceived threat (perceived being the key word), the other was just for keeping an undesirable ethnic group out. 

In that sense detainment camps have more in common with Nazi camps than internment camps.

Racism pure and simple. We didn't do anything like that to German and Italian Canadians.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 04:39:42 pm
They did the exact same thing to Germans in Canada in WW2.  It's weird they never talk about that.

The first Canadian interned by their own government were Ukrainians in WW1. Their (forced) labour helped build our western national parks.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 04:42:56 pm
It's weird that the Nazi camps are apparently off-limits for any comparison, but Hitler himself was inspired by the Indian reservation system and Boer War civilian camps which people have no problem comparing to the present day migrant camps.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 15, 2021, 05:05:55 pm
It's weird that the Nazi camps are apparently off-limits for any comparison, but Hitler himself was inspired by the Indian reservation system and Boer War civilian camps which people have no problem comparing to the present day migrant camps.

It’s not “off limits”.  It’s just hyperbole. 

The reservation system may have been an inspiration, but it wasn’t like Nazi gas chamber camps either.  I suppose he took our evil deeds to a whole new level that hasn’t really been matched since, except maybe in Cambodia  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide). 

How many kids were affected by the “kids in cages” thing?  A million?  10 million?  Oh wait...  a few thousand.  Yeah...  Trump wasn’t very good at the whole “systematic annihilation of Latinos” or whatever he’s being accused of.  As I said...  hyperbole.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 15, 2021, 05:50:58 pm
It's weird that the Nazi camps are apparently off-limits for any comparison, but Hitler himself was inspired by the Indian reservation system and Boer War civilian camps which people have no problem comparing to the present day migrant camps.

The Boer War camps were intended to deny Boer guerrilla forces support from the Boer community. The object wasn't to imprison people. The high death rate in those camps was due to disease from poor diet and sanitation, much like the Nazi camps. When news of the high death rate got out there was public outrage in Britain and a Commission was formed which resulted in the camps being put under civilian control instead of military. The death rate then dropped to less than 2%. Basically the opposite of what happened in Nazi camps.

So certainly the comparison between the ICE and Boer camps is more appropriate.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 15, 2021, 08:37:31 pm
It’s not “off limits”.  It’s just hyperbole. 

The reservation system may have been an inspiration, but it wasn’t like Nazi gas chamber camps either.  I suppose he took our evil deeds to a whole new level that hasn’t really been matched since, except maybe in Cambodia  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide). 

How many kids were affected by the “kids in cages” thing?  A million?  10 million?  Oh wait...  a few thousand.  Yeah...  Trump wasn’t very good at the whole “systematic annihilation of Latinos” or whatever he’s being accused of.  As I said...  hyperbole.

It's ok to admit uyou don't understand what people are talking about when they make the comparison.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 15, 2021, 09:23:30 pm
It's ok to admit uyou don't understand what people are talking about when they make the comparison.

I would if I didn’t understand.  But thanks for the condescending attitude all the same.  You’re worse than Hitler!  He was very condescending.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on February 16, 2021, 12:23:16 am
The rhetorical value of comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany or the Holocaust is heavily outweighed by the fact that your audience will immediately assume you're a dumb-ass or a hysterical loonie.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2021, 12:45:51 am
The rhetorical value of comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany or the Holocaust is heavily outweighed by the fact that your audience will immediately assume you're a dumb-ass or a hysterical loonie.

 -k

Spoken like a true Nazi fascist.  I kid, I kid.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2021, 09:14:16 am
I disagree, I think the semantic argument is an important one to have to counter bad faith arguments like "oh so you think she's dumb for comparing MAGA folks to the Jews in 1930s Germany but you're ok with comparing border camps to concentration camps?"

Indeed, having the opportunity to highlight why the latter comparison is valid is useful to illustrate how evil the U.S.'s immigration policies are.
I suppose I missed the context of the thread.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on February 16, 2021, 11:00:38 am
The rhetorical value of comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany or the Holocaust is heavily outweighed by the fact that your audience will immediately assume you're a dumb-ass or a hysterical loonie.

 -k
All the same I think its fair to compare Hitler's audience to Trump's, especially in light of the the way over 90% of Republicans in Congress still refuse to abandon Trump.  The fundamental question surrounding Hitler's rise to power was how it happened and now it seems patently clear.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 16, 2021, 11:44:29 am
All the same I think its fair to compare Hitler's audience to Trump's, especially in light of the the way over 90% of Republicans in Congress still refuse to abandon Trump.  The fundamental question surrounding Hitler's rise to power was how it happened and now it seems patently clear.

It's a cult following, you could compare it to a lot of things. As one ex Republican strategist said, a real worry is that he could be replace by someone worse who is a lot more competent.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 12:01:27 pm
I would if I didn’t understand.  But thanks for the condescending attitude all the same.  You’re worse than Hitler!  He was very condescending.

If you think people are making the comparison because they think Trump was trying to do a genocide, then no, you don't understand it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 12:05:18 pm
All the same I think its fair to compare Hitler's audience to Trump's, especially in light of the the way over 90% of Republicans in Congress still refuse to abandon Trump.  The fundamental question surrounding Hitler's rise to power was how it happened and now it seems patently clear.

This gets to the point that the people who are poo-pooing the concentration camp comparisons are missing. The comparison was always about the process, not the end result. The holocaust didn't begin with gas chambers: it started with dehumanization and scapegoating that enabled the regime to get away with abrogating the human rights of a specific community. it's not hard to see teh same process at work in the treatment of migrants.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 12:08:34 pm
The rhetorical value of comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany or the Holocaust is heavily outweighed by the fact that your audience will immediately assume you're a dumb-ass or a hysterical loonie.

 -k

Most people don't know a goddamn thing about Hitler or the Holocaust outside of what they see in movies so I'm not sure their opinions matter.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 16, 2021, 12:57:29 pm
Most people don't know a goddamn thing about Hitler or the Holocaust outside of what they see in movies so I'm not sure their opinions matter.

That's why they insist on making comparisons with the Nazis and the Holocaust.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 16, 2021, 01:54:11 pm
This gets to the point that the people who are poo-pooing the concentration camp comparisons are missing. The comparison was always about the process, not the end result. The holocaust didn't begin with gas chambers: it started with dehumanization and scapegoating that enabled the regime to get away with abrogating the human rights of a specific community. it's not hard to see teh same process at work in the treatment of migrants.

No, the comparison hasn’t been the process.  It is never that nuanced.  If it was, we wouldn’t be having this debate.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 02:07:59 pm
No, the comparison hasn’t been the process.  It is never that nuanced.  If it was, we wouldn’t be having this debate.

Again, just because you aren't familiar with the arguments, doesn't mean your bad faith interpretation of them is correct.

I challenge you to find examples of people comparing the Trump camps and Nazi death camps on the basis you say.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 02:09:17 pm
That's why they insist on making comparisons with the Nazis and the Holocaust.

Except lots of people who do know the history make the same comparisons. So where does that leave you?

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border
 (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 16, 2021, 02:58:40 pm
Except lots of people who do know the history make the same comparisons. So where does that leave you?

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border
 (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a27813648/concentration-camps-southern-border-migrant-detention-facilities-trump/)

She doesn't make the comparison at all, quite the opposite.

Quote
"Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz."


She says what the US is running are concentration camps and I don't disagree. What she doesn't do is compare them to Nazi camps.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 03:23:57 pm
She doesn't make the comparison at all, quite the opposite.
 

She says what the US is running are concentration camps and I don't disagree. What she doesn't do is compare them to Nazi camps.

First, that line about Dachau or whatever is not hers. Second she makes the specific comparison elsewhere, like here (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-jan-27-2020-1.5441508/on-anniversary-of-auschwitz-liberation-writer-calls-attention-to-modern-day-concentration-camps-1.5442253).

Quote
While she said that these internment systems are far from the extermination camps of Nazi Germany, she felt it was important to point them out as part of a dangerous continuum.

"Even Auschwitz rose out of exactly these other kinds of camps that we're discussing," she said.

"Let us not imagine what other unimaginable horrors we can't yet picture that could develop out of these situations that are happening in broad daylight right now."

Frankly once you've conceded the point that they are concentration camps, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in saying that comparisons to the Nazi camps are off limits. Indeed, to accept the term is to invite such comparisons.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on February 16, 2021, 03:36:11 pm
First, that line about Dachau or whatever is not hers. Second she makes the specific comparison elsewhere, like here (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-jan-27-2020-1.5441508/on-anniversary-of-auschwitz-liberation-writer-calls-attention-to-modern-day-concentration-camps-1.5442253).

Frankly once you've conceded the point that they are concentration camps, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in saying that comparisons to the Nazi camps are off limits. Indeed, to accept the term is to invite such comparisons.

I never "conceded" anything. I already compared them to other concentration camps such as the Boer War and Japanese internment camps as does she. Her only reference to Nazi death camps is as an example where these camps can lead. She does not compare them to Nazi death camps.You can imagine all you want but that doesn't make them the same.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2021, 05:24:20 pm
Gina Carano didn't compare Jews being murdered by Nazis to how conservatives are treated.  She said that in Germany they got ordinary people to hate Jews, and asked how is that different than hating someone for their political beliefs?

Personally I don't think you should hate anyone, but I think there's a difference between disliking someone for their race and disliking someone for their politics.  It wasn't a good comparison.  Should she have been fired for it?  I don't think so.  But she wasn't fired just for that, she had made many other posts that Disney didn't like.

Disney can hire and fire anyone they want, and fans can reward or punish Disney for those decisions any way they want.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 07:31:59 pm
I never "conceded" anything. I already compared them to other concentration camps such as the Boer War and Japanese internment camps as does she.

Except the Japanese internment and Boer War examples are also imperfect analogs. It's almost as if there are unique circumstances in each case that make them distinct, but that doesn't mean one can't or should not look for similarities.

Quote
Her only reference to Nazi death camps is as an example where these camps can lead. She does not compare them to Nazi death camps.You can imagine all you want but that doesn't make them the same.

No one has ever said they're the same as death camps and I have no idea where this strawman of yours comes from.

The comparison has always been about the philosophical/idealogical underpinnings of the camp systems, and where they can lead. That's it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2021, 10:23:31 am
Yup.  Still not the same as Nazi death camps.
You know "concentration camps" are not "Nazi death camps" and were not exclusive to the Nazis anyhow.  Stop pretending like you don't know that you're conflating terms.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2021, 10:25:58 am
She didn't compare conservatives to Jews in concentration camps! She just compared them to Jews during kristallnacht!

Jesus Christ guys....
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 17, 2021, 11:30:36 am
You know "concentration camps" are not "Nazi death camps" and were not exclusive to the Nazis anyhow.  Stop pretending like you don't know that you're conflating terms.

Comparing them to Nazi concentration camps is hyperbole.  I’m not conflating anything.  Now you’re pretending as if we were only talking about generic “concentration camps” as if the comparison wasn’t linked to Nazis and Jews.  We weren’t.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 17, 2021, 01:54:08 pm
Comparing them to Nazi concentration camps is hyperbole. I’m not conflating anything.  Now you’re pretending as if we were only talking about generic “concentration camps” as if the comparison wasn’t linked to Nazis and Jews.  We weren’t.

OK, I'll bite: why not?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 10:05:45 pm
Most people don't know a goddamn thing about Hitler or the Holocaust outside of what they see in movies so I'm not sure their opinions matter.

Gimme a break. The only reason you (and others) make these inapt Nazi comparisons is that you feel like Nazi comparisons will get "most people" more riled up than more reasonable (but less emotive) comparisons.  You only want to bring Nazis into it because you do care what those people think and you just don't feel a comparison to the Japanese internment is inflammatory enough to get them fired up.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 20, 2021, 11:26:34 pm
Gimme a break. The only reason you (and others) make these inapt Nazi comparisons is that you feel like Nazi comparisons will get "most people" more riled up than more reasonable (but less emotive) comparisons.  You only want to bring Nazis into it because you do care what those people think and you just don't feel a comparison to the Japanese internment is inflammatory enough to get them fired up.

 -k

I don't assume that everyone has an in-depth knowledge of history. I just recognize that this is something has vert real parrallels with how the Holocaust started. And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. If the reason people keep mentioning the Nazi camps is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "never again!" and now you don't do that anymore. Instead of "never again!" it's now "you can't say that!"

Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 01:02:55 am
Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.

There's problems with the comparisons.  The Trump admin wanted to enforce border law by charging illegal border crossers with crimes.  In order to do that, they were legally required to separate children from parents because the courts decided during the Obama admin era that it's inhumane and therefore illegal to jail children with their parents when the children themselves broke no laws, so the kids should be allowed to be transferred to stay with other family that's already in the US or whatnot.  Which is why there's photos from Obama era of kids in cages too.

The Trump admin's fault is that they were too dumb to anticipate this being a political minefield, and also that the kids weren't exactly kept in the nicest conditions.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 11:51:15 am
There's problems with the comparisons.  The Trump admin wanted to enforce border law by charging illegal border crossers with crimes.  In order to do that, they were legally required to separate children from parents because the courts decided during the Obama admin era that it's inhumane and therefore illegal to jail children with their parents when the children themselves broke no laws, so the kids should be allowed to be transferred to stay with other family that's already in the US or whatnot.  Which is why there's photos from Obama era of kids in cages too.

The Trump admin's fault is that they were too dumb to anticipate this being a political minefield, and also that the kids weren't exactly kept in the nicest conditions.


I've already made the basis for the comparisons clear, and it's not about the legal wrangling involved. And if you parse the details of other acceptable comparisons like the Japanese internments, you'll find huge differences as well, so I'm not sure what that proves.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2021, 09:19:17 pm
I don't assume that everyone has an in-depth knowledge of history. I just recognize that this is something has vert real parrallels with how the Holocaust started. And we know that's not a hypothetical, we know it's a fact. If the reason people keep mentioning the Nazi camps is that it forces people like you to acknowledge the reality of this. You guys always used to always respond to this type of thing with "never again!" and now you don't do that anymore. Instead of "never again!" it's now "you can't say that!"

Anyway, it would be nice if one person would actually read the references and explanations I've provided and then explain why the comparison between the border camps and the Nazi concentration camps is so off base.

You cite an article that points out that "things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz." But the whole reason people like you keep bringing Nazis into this is to try to evoke imagery from Dachau or Auschwitz.  It's shameless and makes reasonable people tune you out because you're being ridiculous.

And it's completely unnecessary.  You don't need to piggyback on the Holocaust to make the point. The facts speak for themselves. Children in cages, children torn away from their parents, children who might never be reunited with their families, children who died while in custody... none of this needs to be embellished. The facts speak for themselves. Instead of trying to leverage a ridiculous comparison to the Holocaust, present the facts of what was happening and you'd find a far more appreciative audience.

Progressives ought to stop shooting themselves in the foot by being ridiculous.

 -k

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 03, 2021, 10:19:42 pm
If you're like me, you associated the name Naomi Wolf with feminism and the book "The Beauty Myth".  Back in the 1990s "The Beauty Myth" was a landmark book and Naomi Wolf was probably the single most visible feminist author of the era. 

But Naomi Wolf has fallen on hard times.

In 2012 she published a book called "Vag1na: The New Biography".  Full of shoddy neuroscience, pseudoscience, and mystic woo-woo, reviewers couldn't tell if it was intended to be serious or satire.

In 2014 things took a darker turn as Wolf claimed that ISIS videos depicting the murder of western journalists were hoaxes staged using crisis actors (https://www.vox.com/2014/10/5/6909837/naomi-wolf-isis-ebola-scotland-conspiracy-theories). And in what can now be called foreshadowing, she claimed that the US government was planning to bring Ebola to the United States as a pretext for implementing martial law. (https://twitter.com/BenMcCombe/status/518493472701952000)

In 2019, Wolf published a new book, called Outrages, about the historical persecution of gay people. It was immediately pulled off the shelves by its publisher, after a disastrous BBC interview in which a historian explained to Wolf that her information was based on a serious misunderstanding of historical record-keeping in Britain. After some corrections, the book was unceremoniously rereleased in 2020, and was once again declared to be full of false information by historians.

In 2021, a look through Wolf's Twitter feed reveals that she is in full tinfoil hat mode. Mixed in with a litany of anti-mask, anti-lockdown post, one finds posts relating to nanotechnology, biotech, and the new mRNA vaccines.  The heart of it is this: Moderna published some information to explain how mRNA vaccines work in layman's terms-- likening it to a new operating system for a computer... and Wolf has interpreted this quite literally: she believes that the vaccines are quite literally going to take control of our bodies. Last week she produced a video to "sound the alarm" over this. It was declared dangerous medical misinformation and removed from Twitter, Facebook, Vimeo, and every other platform she attempted to share it on.

There are a lot of morons on the internet, but what makes Naomi Wolf different from most is that people probably think she's still the respected author from the 1990s, not the unhinged dingbat she has turned into. Her once-respected name might give her wacky ideas more attention than she deserves.

(https://i.imgur.com/n5TO6hb.png)

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 04, 2021, 05:53:53 am
Speculation was that the Apple people were talking about something called 'time machine' or some product that she misinterpreted.  Oh well.  :P
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 04, 2021, 09:57:14 am
You cite an article that points out that "things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz." But the whole reason people like you keep bringing Nazis into this is to try to evoke imagery from Dachau or Auschwitz.  It's shameless and makes reasonable people tune you out because you're being ridiculous.

And you think the argument that "these are concentration camps, but not those kinds of concentration camps" will be effective and not inevitably lead to Nazi comparisons anyway?

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And it's completely unnecessary.  You don't need to piggyback on the Holocaust to make the point. The facts speak for themselves. Children in cages, children torn away from their parents, children who might never be reunited with their families, children who died while in custody... none of this needs to be embellished. The facts speak for themselves. Instead of trying to leverage a ridiculous comparison to the Holocaust, present the facts of what was happening and you'd find a far more appreciative audience.


I really want to know who is out there who would be receptive to opposing these things if given the facts but who would be alienated by Nazi comparisons. It's also funny that you were far more sanguine about Gina Carano using Nazi comparisons to talk about her hurt feelings than you are about describing concentration camps as, uh, concentration camps.

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Progressives ought to stop shooting themselves in the foot by being ridiculous.

Centrists really should stop prioritizing respectability above all else.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2021, 10:38:47 am
Centrists really should stop prioritizing respectability above all else.

I used to call myself progressive, and I still have many progressive views, but when progressives started to get crazy about 5 years ago I said "I can't associate myself with some of this ridiculous stuff".  I think it turns reasonable people off.

It really comes down to how far people are willing to push things, which seems a lot these days.  I remember 20 years ago you'd include a female or minority or 2 in a TV show to be more inclusive, and that was good, that's some progress.  Now it's like THE thing people are obsessed with, and everything is identity quotas, and it's not terrible or anything but it's just like "this is kind of annoying because if you don't have X or Y included you're a sexist racist so cancel you". And on the extreme you get something like the batwoman trailer and people want to vomit except for the extremists who cheer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7RPQMBhVcM
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 04, 2021, 11:57:39 am
I used to call myself progressive, and I still have many progressive views, but when progressives started to get crazy about 5 years ago I said "I can't associate myself with some of this ridiculous stuff".  I think it turns reasonable people off.

OK like what?

Has it occurred to you you're getting fed this stuff through a filter that is designed to position these things as beyond the pale and outrageous?

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It really comes down to how far people are willing to push things, which seems a lot these days.  I remember 20 years ago you'd include a female or minority or 2 in a TV show to be more inclusive, and that was good, that's some progress.  Now it's like THE thing people are obsessed with, and everything is identity quotas, and it's not terrible or anything but it's just like "this is kind of annoying because if you don't have X or Y included you're a sexist racist so cancel you".

Nothing says "I'm a progressive" like complaining that there are too many gays and blacks on TV now.


Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2021, 12:11:55 pm
Nothing says "I'm a progressive" like complaining that there are too many gays and blacks on TV now.

I never said that.  I'm talking about being beaten over the head with identity quotas and whatnot.  Nobody has a problem with blacks and gays on TV.  People have a problem with everyone now being casted for whatever identity group they belong to to hit a quota.  People love Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption because he's a great actor, not because he's black.

There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it.  It's about people who think there's an evil patriarchy if 50% of directors or politicians aren't women.

I'd like to watch a cool show starring Batwoman, female superheroes are cool and I like those stories, and maybe we should even create more female superheroes because it's mostly men since men dominate the comic industry.  But I don't really want to hear about the character's feminist platitudes every 3 seconds, it turns people off.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 04, 2021, 12:27:46 pm
I never said that.  I'm talking about being beaten over the head with identity quotas and whatnot.  Nobody has a problem with blacks and gays on TV.  People have a problem with everyone now being casted for whatever identity group they belong to to hit a quota.  People love Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption because he's a great actor, not because he's black.

You clearly do if you think any such representation is just about hitting a quota versus just, you know, representing the society we live in.

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There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it.  It's about people who think there's an evil patriarchy if 50% of directors or politicians aren't women.

You think there should be a small number of token minorities and that's it? You're literally arguing for a quota on minority representation here lol. i'd love to know how you determine the correct number of women, gays or POCs on TV or in movies. "Let's see we have one Sassy Gay Best Friend, one Fiery Latina, one No Nonsense Black Lady, looks like we're all loaded up!"

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I'd like to watch a cool show starring Batwoman, female superheroes are cool and I like those stories, and maybe we should even create more female superheroes because it's mostly men since men dominate the comic industry.  But I don't really want to hear about the character's feminist platitudes every 3 seconds, it turns people off.

No, it turns you off. That's not the same thing.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2021, 02:16:19 pm
You clearly do if you think any such representation is just about hitting a quota.

You think there should be a small number of token minorities and that's it? You're literally arguing for a quota on minority representation here lol. i'd love to know how you determine the correct number of women, gays or POCs on TV or in movies. "Let's see we have one Sassy Gay Best Friend, one Fiery Latina, one No Nonsense Black Lady, looks like we're all loaded up!"

No, it turns you off. That's not the same thing.

There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.  I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.

Why not?  Because it's absolutely insane, it's tokenism, it's condescending, it's racist, it's sexist, it's divisive, it's bad social science based on logical fallacies, it's a road to nowhere with no end because it has no conceptual underpinning that makes logical sense, and it's annoying.

People think Batwoman is cool.  People even think having more female superheroes is a good thing, and if it's a good show they watch it.  People don't want Batwoman hitting them over the head with wokeness every 3 minutes, they want Batwoman in cool stories.  Again, it's about how far people take their "progress".
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 04, 2021, 02:28:52 pm
There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  E

You evidently there is a correct number and now there are too many. Again:

"There's still room for pushing modest numbers of diversity hires to give historically oppressed groups more chances to succeed in positions you historically haven't seen them in often.  I think hiring some female directors is cool.  It's about how far we should take it."

The only way to interpret this is you think there's a threshold for where "giving minorities opportunity" ends and "filling quotas" begins which exists in your own mind and now we've passed it.

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Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.

Who is doing that? I want examples.

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I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.

This is tokenism.

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Why not?  Because it's absolutely insane, it's tokenism, it's condescending, it's racist, it's sexist, it's divisive, it's bad social science based on logical fallacies, it's a road to nowhere with no end because it has no conceptual underpinning that makes logical sense, and it's annoying.

These are words, that's for sure, but it sure looks like your inventing people and scenarios and then getting mad at them.

Tokenism is what you're talking about: having a few different colour faces to gesture towards diversity to pretend you're addressing inequality. Whereas the real goal should be not just minority representation but actual power and influence.

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People think Batwoman is cool.  People even think having more female superheroes is a good thing, and if it's a good show they watch it.  People don't want Batwoman hitting them over the head with wokeness every 3 minutes, they want Batwoman in cool stories.  Again, it's about how far people take their "progress".

Again, you're saying "people" when you clearly mean "me". Not sure why you can't own your opinions without projecting them onto some nebulous entity called "people."
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 04, 2021, 02:29:49 pm
You're boring to talk to.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 04, 2021, 02:31:43 pm
You're boring to talk to.

That's not what the people say.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 04, 2021, 06:37:38 pm
There is no "correct" number of gays, women, or minorities on TV.  That's the whole point.  You can include people if you like, or not, who gives a crap.  Everyone is trying to determine the exact correct number of every division of identity on every TV show and organization.  I don't mind throwing a bone to people once in a while and giving people opportunities, because why not, it's good to give people chances who might not ordinarily have them.  But I'm not going to look at every single hiring decision and break it down like the census in order to make sure the proportion of people from group X or Y in the general population is proportionately represented in the staff of every organization in the country because people falsely assume that to not do so is somehow an indication of racism and sexism and then scream about it on twitter and run hashtags.


Traditionally characters of colour had their ethnicity as part of their character.  J Lo broke that mold when she was lead in a movie in which her ethnicity wasn't referenced, she was just herself.  It hasn't always been like that though, the 'default' is white characters unless the setting is specifically depicting latinx community, black etc. 

The old mold probably doesn't bother you because you are represented.  You may feel differently if movies look nothing like your world.

 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2021, 04:16:06 pm
Traditionally characters of colour had their ethnicity as part of their character.  J Lo broke that mold when she was lead in a movie in which her ethnicity wasn't referenced, she was just herself.  It hasn't always been like that though, the 'default' is white characters unless the setting is specifically depicting latinx community, black etc. 

The old mold probably doesn't bother you because you are represented.  You may feel differently if movies look nothing like your world.


I watched Mary, Queen of Scots and there was a black and Asian Character in the movie.  They portrayed characters in royal setting of 16th Century Scotland and England.

I stand corrected, I have now seen Hollywood go overboard on representation.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 07, 2021, 04:36:33 pm
Yes but... again it depends.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2021, 05:02:54 pm
Definitely, which I argued initially, but as much as I appreciate representation in movies, this was a big miss.  I also see it doing more damage than good.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2021, 05:25:23 pm
Bridgerton has black people playing a Duke and the Queen of England. Odd but what the hell.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 07, 2021, 06:16:09 pm
Bridgerton has black people playing a Duke and the Queen of England. Odd but what the hell.

Anybody see Downfall ?  You could NOT have black people play famous people in that.

That's all.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2021, 07:33:14 pm
Bridgerton has black people playing a Duke and the Queen of England. Odd but what the hell.

At least Bridgerton is fiction.  Mary Queen of Scots was a period piece.

Two of the major characters were also gay for which there is no historical record but I can accept what the screen writer posited about history erasing the possibility.

But the inclusion of black and asian characters reaches the point of diminishing returns...  it's radical tokenism.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2021, 09:02:30 pm
Anybody see Downfall ?  You could NOT have black people play famous people in that.

That's all.

Black Hitler?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 07, 2021, 09:10:12 pm
At least Bridgerton is fiction.  Mary Queen of Scots was a period piece.

Two of the major characters were also gay for which there is no historical record but I can accept what the screen writer posited about history erasing the possibility.

But the inclusion of black and asian characters reaches the point of diminishing returns...  it's radical tokenism.

I would watch an all-black cast about an African period piece if it were a good show.  I mean, I loved the Cosby Show, race was not relevant to a good show.  Wings was an all-white sitcom, it was a terrible show.  There's nothing inherently wrong with an all-white cast if it's a period piece.  Apparently there were black nobility back in the day.

We really need to stop worrying about race so much.  The Cosby Show wasn't racist, and neither was Cheers.  It's just a show.

I liked Jerry's answer on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsEr6xNN8Hw
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2021, 09:22:27 pm
At least Bridgerton is fiction.  Mary Queen of Scots was a period piece.

Two of the major characters were also gay for which there is no historical record but I can accept what the screen writer posited about history erasing the possibility.

But the inclusion of black and asian characters reaches the point of diminishing returns...  it's radical tokenism.

Maybe but it is supposed to take place near during the Napoleonic wars, characters are mentioned to be in Spain with Wellington. George III was still king, Queen Charlotte was German, any possible African lineage would be through the Portuguese royal family 15 generations removed.

Makes the show interesting though, she is also a great character.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2021, 09:40:30 pm
Maybe but it is supposed to take place near during the Napoleonic wars, characters are mentioned to be in Spain with Wellington. George III was still king, Queen Charlotte was German, any possible African lineage would be through the Portuguese royal family 15 generations removed.

Makes the show interesting though, she is also a great character.

Yeah, I hear lots of good things about it.  I will give it a go, it sounds like my type of show. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on March 07, 2021, 10:08:21 pm
It's an interesting conundrum. I doubt there were any black princes of Denmark so does that mean a black person should never play Hamlet?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2021, 10:39:38 pm
I think a lot of conservatives would clutch their pearls about cancel culture, but personally, I don't really care any more than a black actress playing Ariel in Little Mermaid. 

Fiction is fiction. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 08, 2021, 05:12:19 am

We really need to stop worrying about race so much.   

I don't think that we ever worried about it that much.  They will tell us when we can stop worrying.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 10:26:49 am

I watched Mary, Queen of Scots and there was a black and Asian Character in the movie.  They portrayed characters in royal setting of 16th Century Scotland and England.

I stand corrected, I have now seen Hollywood go overboard on representation.

This may shock people, but Black and Asian people existed in the past outside of Africa and Asia.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 10:27:26 am
I would watch an all-black cast about an African period piece if it were a good show.  I mean, I loved the Cosby Show, race was not relevant to a good show.  Wings was an all-white sitcom, it was a terrible show.  There's nothing inherently wrong with an all-white cast if it's a period piece.  Apparently there were black nobility back in the day.

We really need to stop worrying about race so much.  The Cosby Show wasn't racist, and neither was Cheers.  It's just a show.

I liked Jerry's answer on this:


Who's "we"?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 10:33:22 am
At least Bridgerton is fiction.  Mary Queen of Scots was a period piece.

Two of the major characters were also gay for which there is no historical record but I can accept what the screen writer posited about history erasing the possibility.

But the inclusion of black and asian characters reaches the point of diminishing returns...  it's radical tokenism.

How many times have straight white actors been cast to play gay or ethnic characters? And I'm not just talking back in the day, I'm talking this century.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2021, 11:16:13 am
I don't think that we ever worried about it that much.  They will tell us when we can stop worrying.

Who is "they".  Why would I let someone tell me how to think?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2021, 11:16:57 am
Who's "we"?

Everyone in society.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 08, 2021, 11:43:04 am
Who is "they".  Why would I let someone tell me how to think?

I put that in there on purpose so you would catch it and maybe take a guess.

You are already saying the problem is solved, by putting everyone together in a "we" and not allowing a "they".

Would you let a woke person declare "cancel culture" not a problem ? 

You're denying the reason that politics exists - ie. you can't deny "them" and "us" until they say we can.  There are some theys that went away in the past.  Masons, for example.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 08, 2021, 12:53:38 pm
How many times have straight white actors been cast to play gay or ethnic characters? And I'm not just talking back in the day, I'm talking this century.

I find it equally outrageous.  What's your point?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 08, 2021, 12:56:47 pm
I find it equally outrageous.  What's your point?

A gay actor has to play a gay character?    ???
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 08, 2021, 12:59:34 pm
A gay actor has to play a gay character?    ???

Not so much, but when actors and actresses put on blackface to play historical people of colour I find it very offensive. 
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 01:09:29 pm
Everyone in society.

What happens if we stop "worrying about race"? Will the racism and inequality baked into the system just magically go away?

I mean you seem to think race wasn't relevant to the Cosby Show, which is about as bad a take as you could get.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 08, 2021, 01:50:21 pm
1. What happens if we stop "worrying about race"? Will the racism and inequality baked into the system just magically go away?

2. I mean you seem to think race wasn't relevant to the Cosby Show, which is about as bad a take as you could get.
1. He thinks it's gone away already, I suspect
2. They were Black, I think.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2021, 01:53:30 pm
I mean you seem to think race wasn't relevant to the Cosby Show, which is about as bad a take as you could get.

It wasn't relevant to the show being good.  It had some racial messages put in there by Cosby, which is good and fine because they were well done, but it was a well-written show regardless.

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What happens if we stop "worrying about race"? Will the racism and inequality baked into the system just magically go away?

I think we can worry about racism without being obsessed with race and ticking off boxes.  Like Jerry Seinfeld said, does every TV cast have to have the same breakdown as the census or else racism/sexism?  Can a period piece in England exist without a black character and not be racist?  Is Family Matters racist because the entire cast was black?  Does any sane person give a hoot?  If there's black characters in Bridgerton i don't really care, nor would I care if there's no black characters, or if all the characters are black.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 02:57:18 pm
It wasn't relevant to the show being good.  It had some racial messages put in there by Cosby, which is good and fine because they were well done, but it was a well-written show regardless.

Race was fairly central to the premise of the show.

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I think we can worry about racism without being obsessed with race and ticking off boxes.

I have no idea what, in practical terms, you're talking about here.

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Like Jerry Seinfeld said, does every TV cast have to have the same breakdown as the census or else racism/sexism?  Can a period piece in England exist without a black character and not be racist?  Is Family Matters racist because the entire cast was black?  Does any sane person give a hoot?  If there's black characters in Bridgerton i don't really care, nor would I care if there's no black characters, or if all the characters are black.

Most of this is just strawmen, eg no one is saying a show that doesn't feature POC actors is racist or that they need to feature X number of woman/POC actors or be considered racist.

It's funny to see a super privileged white male like Jerry Seinfeld dismiss concerns about representation and diversity because it's pretty clear he's never once thought about who gets opportunities to showcase their talents and who doesn't.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 08, 2021, 06:19:46 pm
It's funny to see a super privileged white male like Jerry Seinfeld dismiss concerns about representation and diversity because it's pretty clear he's never once thought about who gets opportunities to showcase their talents and who doesn't.

He said things like gender, race etc aren't factors in who he has on his show, because race/gender have nothing to do with how funny a comedian is.  And he's right.  He's had women and black people on his show.  One can assume it's because he thinks Dave Chappelle and Ellen Degeneres etc are funny.  This is how a person who isn't racist or sexist thinks.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 08:46:09 pm
He said things like gender, race etc aren't factors in who he has on his show, because race/gender have nothing to do with how funny a comedian is.  And he's right.  He's had women and black people on his show.  One can assume it's because he thinks Dave Chappelle and Ellen Degeneres etc are funny.

Race and gender have nothing to do with how funny someone is, it's true. But race and gender are absolutely factors in who Jerry has on his show because race and gender play a big part in who is considered funny and who gets opportunities. In other words, he's drawing from a talent pool that is shaped in large part by racism and sexism. Unless you think the fact that the vast majority of stand ups being white men is simply because they are actually funnier, then you have to concede there's something else going on.

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This is how a person who isn't racist or sexist thinks.

No this is how a rich old white dude who has never considered these things thinks. I doubt Jerry has ever given a passing thought to any social issue outside of age of consent laws.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2021, 03:45:43 pm
Race and gender have nothing to do with how funny someone is, it's true. But race and gender are absolutely factors in who Jerry has on his show because race and gender play a big part in who is considered funny and who gets opportunities. In other words, he's drawing from a talent pool that is shaped in large part by racism and sexism. Unless you think the fact that the vast majority of stand ups being white men is simply because they are actually funnier, then you have to concede there's something else going on.

It could be that there's sexism or racism in the stand up industry.  The problem is how do we show evidence that this is the case, and to what extent is this the case?  Your evidence is that a large # of white men are stand-up comedians.  That's not good enough evidence.  That's like saying the NBA is racist and sexist because most players are black men, or universities are sexist because the majority of graduates are women. 

This question extends to a lot of industries.  There are all sorts of racial and gender disparities in a large number of industries/fields in society.  If a given population of employed people do not match the proportions of the general population, does that mean sexism, racism etc is occurring?  The assumption today is "yes", but this is just not always the case, though i'm sure sometimes it is.  So how do we figure out when it is and isn't happening, and to what extent?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: wilber on March 09, 2021, 06:27:08 pm
Interesting how some members here condemn the opposition for calling Chinese treatment of the Uighers what it is. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-responsible-genocide-independent-report-1.5942289, yet have no problem equating internment camps in the US with Nazi concentration camps.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 09, 2021, 07:18:35 pm
https://www.amnesty.ca/our-work/priority-countries/china

Amnesty International on China
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 09, 2021, 08:21:00 pm

But the inclusion of black and asian characters reaches the point of diminishing returns...  it's radical tokenism.

It really depends on the execution.  Too often these are pointless characters that are clearly just there to tick some boxes, and I think that's kind of insulting to both the audience as well as the overall goal of on-screen representation.

I always think of what some studio exec said about Demi Moore's character in "A Few Good Men".  "She doesn't take off her clothes, she doesn't fall in love with Tom Cruise, so why is this character a woman?"  The assumption being that the character should have been male by default, unless she was going to be a love interest or provide some T&A. But why assume a character be male by default?  Likewise, why should a character be white by default?

I saw a movie with Michael Douglas and Gwyneth Paltrow a long time ago, called "A Perfect Murder".  Gwyneth's best friend in the movie is played by Sarita Choudhry, and her ethnicity plays no role in the film (I think Douglas's character teasingly calls her "the Bengalese Bombshell" at one point, and that's the only mention of it.)   I can imagine some studio exec might have asked "she doesn't do any ethnic jokes or cook curry, so why didn't we cast a white actress in this role?"  But there was also no reason why the character needed to be white.  So is it tokenism?  The character was part of the film, it's not like they invented a superfluous character just to tick some boxes. It's a character that was there as part of the story, and there was no reason why the character needed to be white, so why not cast an Indian actress in the role? It seemed fine to me.

On the other hand, when representation is done badly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78TNeWXi2e4

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 11:53:37 am
It could be that there's sexism or racism in the stand up industry.  The problem is how do we show evidence that this is the case, and to what extent is this the case?  Your evidence is that a large # of white men are stand-up comedians.  That's not good enough evidence.  That's like saying the NBA is racist and sexist because most players are black men, or universities are sexist because the majority of graduates are women. 

This question extends to a lot of industries.  There are all sorts of racial and gender disparities in a large number of industries/fields in society.  If a given population of employed people do not match the proportions of the general population, does that mean sexism, racism etc is occurring? The assumption today is "yes", but this is just not always the case, though i'm sure sometimes it is.  So how do we figure out when it is and isn't happening, and to what extent?

I don't think in this case it's a question of "if". Just ask any women or POC comics about their experiences. How big a problem it is is difficult to quantify given the myriad ways racism and sexism can manifest themselves institutionally, but I don't think there's any doubt that it's a factor.

And no, this isn't like basketball or even university graduates where there's an objective standard of ability at play.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 10, 2021, 02:38:38 pm
I don't think in this case it's a question of "if". Just ask any women or POC comics about their experiences. How big a problem it is is difficult to quantify given the myriad ways racism and sexism can manifest themselves institutionally, but I don't think there's any doubt that it's a factor.

So you think there's a problem because of some anecdotes, and this is enough for Seinfeld to change his hiring practices?  5 of the 10 highest paid comedians are POC or women, including the top paid, and there's also Dave Chappelle who is up there with Kevin Hart in popularity but not on the list.  How do we as a society address a problem if we can't define it or know how big of a problem it is?  Surely we can figure something out. 

How do we know when we, like Seinfeld, should hire more women/POC?  And how do we know when we've hired enough women/POC?  Is it based on gut feelings?  Should numbers be equal (50/50 men vs women) or match what the census makeup of the general population is?  Should we just ballpark it and hire a bunch until it kinda looks good?

How do we know the lack of female comedians is due to sexism?  Maybe more men are good at making people laugh than women?  Funny women seem to do well, like Melissa McCarthy, Kristen Wiig, Amy Schumer etc.  To what extent is the lack of women an industry problem or a "less woman are funny" problem?  To what extent is this Seinfeld's problem, or his responsibility to help fix?

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And no, this isn't like basketball or even university graduates where there's an objective standard of ability at play.

So black people are better at basketball than other races?  And women are smarter and/or harder working than men?  How is there an objective standard in these 2 examples and there isn't for people who are good at making other people laugh?

How are there more university grads who are women, and more female medical doctors graduating than men, but STEM is sexist because of lack of women?  Is the teaching professional or medical doctor profession sexist because of lower male graduates?  Are anecdotes and number disparities sufficient to show sexism/racism?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on March 10, 2021, 02:54:22 pm
You can ask for general trends, and there are reasons for these things ... but the path is fraught with distrust and potential for misuse.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 02:54:29 pm
So you think there's a problem because of some anecdotes, and this is enough for Seinfeld to change his hiring practices?  5 of the 10 highest paid comedians are POC or women, including the top paid, and there's also Dave Chappelle who is up there with Kevin Hart in popularity but not on the list.  How do we as a society address a problem if we can't define it or know how big of a problem it is?  Surely we can figure something out. 

How do we know when we, like Seinfeld, should hire more women/POC?  And how do we know when we've hired enough women/POC?  Is it based on gut feelings?  Should numbers be equal (50/50 men vs women) or match what the census makeup of the general population is?  Should we just ballpark it and hire a bunch until it kinda looks good?

How do we know the lack of female comedians is due to sexism?  Maybe more men are good at making people laugh than women?  Funny women seem to do well, like Melissa McCarthy, Kristen Wiig, Amy Schumer etc.  To what extent is the lack of women an industry problem or a "less woman are funny" problem?  To what extent is this Seinfeld's problem, or his responsibility to help fix?

You seem obsessed with quotas for some reason, which is not something anyone is asking for. To address the issue, you have to acknowledge that it exists and trust the people who say its an issue aren't making **** up. From that point on it's about changing attitudes of people like Jerry Seinfeld who have a lot of power and influence.

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So black people are better at basketball than other races?

No, there are more people who happen to be good at basketball who are Black.

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And women are smarter and/or harder working than men?

More women graduate university because more women go into university to get into fields like education and healthcare that are women-dominated (itself something of aa sexist relic). STEM fields are still male dominated. Also more men skip higher education and go into the workforce. There's plenty of other reasons, but no one is reducing it to

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How is there an objective standard in these 2 examples and there isn't for people who are good at making other people laugh

Because humour, unlike hitting a jumper or getting good grades, is entirely subjective.

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How are there more university grads who are women, and more female medical doctors graduating than men, but STEM is sexist because of lack of women?  Is the teaching professional or medical doctor profession sexist because of lower male graduates? Are anecdotes and number disparities sufficient to show sexism/racism?

What else would you look for?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 10, 2021, 06:33:37 pm
You seem obsessed with quotas for some reason, which is not something anyone is asking for. To address the issue, you have to acknowledge that it exists and trust the people who say its an issue aren't making **** up. From that point on it's about changing attitudes of people like Jerry Seinfeld who have a lot of power and influence.

So you're not asking for quotas and believe people should be hired on merit alone?

The interviewer was basically criticizing Seinfeld for not having more female comedians on his show.  Is it Seinfeld's problem that there are more successful male comedians in the industry who are funny, in his assessment, than women?  Does that make him sexist?  Why should we trust some interviewers' insinuation that there's some kind of sexist imbalance on the show, or in the industry?  Why should we trust anyone making claims if they're unable to back up their claims with evidence?  As I've shown with basketball players and teachers, a disparity in gender or race isn't sufficient on its own to show there's racial or gender bias occurring in hiring, and yet people do it constantly.

We should be looking at social problems like this like social scientists, based on evidence, not making claims pulled out of our butts and then claiming some employer is sexist, racist, or whatever simply because of anecdotes and gender/race disparities, and then pressuring them to change hiring practices because things *appear* to some people to be unfair when there's little to no evidence that it actually is or not.

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No, there are more people who happen to be good at basketball who are Black.

I agree.  Is it possible that there are more men who are good comedians than women?  If one disagrees with that statement, i think they'd need evidence it's wrong.

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More women graduate university because more women go into university to get into fields like education and healthcare that are women-dominated (itself something of aa sexist relic). STEM fields are still male dominated. Also more men skip higher education and go into the workforce. There's plenty of other reasons, but no one is reducing it to

If more men graduated university than women for these exact same reasons you propose, some people would claim it is due to sexism, just as they do in STEM fields.  And they would bring forward this claim without any real evidence.  It sounds like people are pulling claims out of their rear end.  Nobody is going to say that more women graduate due to sexism.  Why?  Because there's no evidence to back up that claim.  Is it possible in our society we're sometimes reaching conclusion like this before actually investigating whether a claim is true or not? I find that likely.

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What else would you look for?

I'm not sure.  Something that can be verified?  One study was conducted where the exact same resumes were sent to many employers and they just changed the names on them.  The resumes with POC sounding names got more callbacks for interviews than the white sounding names.  This is an effective study that shows racial bias was a factor in hiring because all variables were controlled for except for the ethnicity of the candidates names.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 11, 2021, 09:38:18 am
So you're not asking for quotas and believe people should be hired on merit alone?

Not really because the concept of merit is itself flawed. It assumes everyone starts at the same place and the playing field is level for everyone. That's not the case.

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The interviewer was basically criticizing Seinfeld for not having more female comedians on his show.  Is it Seinfeld's problem that there are more successful male comedians in the industry who are funny, in his assessment, than women?  Does that make him sexist?  Why should we trust some interviewers' insinuation that there's some kind of sexist imbalance on the show, or in the industry?  Why should we trust anyone making claims if they're unable to back up their claims with evidence?

Because the quantitative evidence you're asking for is extremely difficult to come by, but that in itself doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. We do have an awful lot of anecdotal evidence though and that's telling.

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As I've shown with basketball players and teachers, a disparity in gender or race isn't sufficient on its own to show there's racial or gender bias occurring in hiring, and yet people do it constantly.

And i've shown why those are bad analogies.

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We should be looking at social problems like this like social scientists, based on evidence, not making claims pulled out of our butts and then claiming some employer is sexist, racist, or whatever simply because of anecdotes and gender/race disparities, and then pressuring them to change hiring practices because things *appear* to some people to be unfair when there's little to no evidence that it actually is or not.

See above.

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I agree.  Is it possible that there are more men who are good comedians than women?  If one disagrees with that statement, i think they'd need evidence it's wrong.

No, you need to provide evidence it's right.

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If more men graduated university than women for these exact same reasons you propose, some people would claim it is due to sexism, just as they do in STEM fields.  And they would bring forward this claim without any real evidence.  It sounds like people are pulling claims out of their rear end.  Nobody is going to say that more women graduate due to sexism.  Why?  Because there's no evidence to back up that claim.  Is it possible in our society we're sometimes reaching conclusion like this before actually investigating whether a claim is true or not? I find that likely.

Asking for "evidence" over and over again without providing any sense of what kind of evidence would be acceptable isn't really showing a serious commitment to understanding the problem, it's just JAQing off (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions).

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I'm not sure.  Something that can be verified?  One study was conducted where the exact same resumes were sent to many employers and they just changed the names on them.  The resumes with POC sounding names got more callbacks for interviews than the white sounding names.  This is an effective study that shows racial bias was a factor in hiring because all variables were controlled for except for the ethnicity of the candidates names.

Not every social phenomenon can be reproduced in a lab, but yes they can try. There was a study that had men and women write cartoon captions and subjects rate them. In the anonymous sample, there was no difference, but in the sample where the names of the authours were included, the men were rated higher. Things like that help, but overall, I think it's a challenge to show where stereotypes and implicit bias end and genuine differences in ability begin.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2021, 03:46:37 pm
Not really because the concept of merit is itself flawed. It assumes everyone starts at the same place and the playing field is level for everyone. That's not the case.

Therefore you believe that quotas are a solution to this problem, correct?  So maybe i'm not the one obsessed with quotas.

Merit means the best person for the job gets the job regardless of what they look like (race, gender, eye colour, whatever).  That's what POC and women have been asking for since the beginning.  It's the only way to choose someone for a job without discriminating on the basis of race or sex.

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Because the quantitative evidence you're asking for is extremely difficult to come by, but that in itself doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. We do have an awful lot of anecdotal evidence though and that's telling.

Why is it difficult?  Conduct a study like the ones mentioned.  You want to discriminate against caucasians and men and give those jobs to women or POC.  I don't really have a problem with this if there's discrimination going on against POC/women in order to negate that discrimination, but if you're going to discriminate against people based on race/sex and take their jobs away to give to others you have an obligation to at least know what you're talking about and have some kind of evidence that a problem exists due to racism/sexism.  Yelling "racism and sexism" isn't good enough, it's terrible social science, and so are basing conclusions on anecdotes.  You either believe in justice, or you believe in justice only for certain people based on their race or gender, which is what racists and sexists do.

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And i've shown why those are bad analogies.

No you haven't, you simply dodged the question.

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No, you need to provide evidence it's right.

No.  Again, if you want to discriminate against people on the basis of race and sex, which is kind of a serious thing to do, the onus is on you to provide evidence that it's justified, not pull things from your behind.

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Asking for "evidence" over and over again without providing any sense of what kind of evidence would be acceptable isn't really showing a serious commitment to understanding the problem, it's just JAQing off (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions).

If you want to know what acceptable evidence means you can take a social science class on research methods.  Correlation doesn't equal causation, for instance.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 12, 2021, 09:31:24 am
Therefore you believe that quotas are a solution to this problem, correct?  So maybe i'm not the one obsessed with quotas.

No.

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Merit means the best person for the job gets the job regardless of what they look like (race, gender, eye colour, whatever).  That's what POC and women have been asking for since the beginning.  It's the only way to choose someone for a job without discriminating on the basis of race or sex.

You obviously don't understand the criticism of the concept and I bet you never will. The notion that being the best person for the job has ever actually been the thing that gets people jobs is farcical.

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Why is it difficult?  Conduct a study like the ones mentioned.  You want to discriminate against caucasians and men and give those jobs to women or POC.  I don't really have a problem with this if there's discrimination going on against POC/women in order to negate that discrimination, but if you're going to discriminate against people based on race/sex and take their jobs away to give to others you have an obligation to at least know what you're talking about and have some kind of evidence that a problem exists due to racism/sexism.  Yelling "racism and sexism" isn't good enough, it's terrible social science, and so are basing conclusions on anecdotes.  You either believe in justice, or you believe in justice only for certain people based on their race or gender, which is what racists and sexists do.

Why are you whinging about discrimination against caucasians and men when literally no one has proposed that?

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No you haven't, you simply dodged the question.

Wrong again. I answered, and you ignored the answer.

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No.  Again, if you want to discriminate against people on the basis of race and sex, which is kind of a serious thing to do, the onus is on you to provide evidence that it's justified, not pull things from your behind.

Like you're doing here when you claim I want to discriminate. OK.

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If you want to know what acceptable evidence means you can take a social science class on research methods. Correlation doesn't equal causation, for instance.

Speaking of dodging the question, look at you go.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2021, 04:41:03 pm
You obviously don't understand the criticism of the concept and I bet you never will. The notion that being the best person for the job has ever actually been the thing that gets people jobs is farcical.

Merit is likely the case in most hirings, but not in all cases.  I think most would agree that hiring based on merit is the ideal.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 13, 2021, 06:55:04 pm
Merit is likely the case in most hirings, but not in all cases.  I think most would agree that hiring based on merit is the ideal.

Ideal, but impossible.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on May 12, 2021, 04:29:18 pm
Astral Projection and the CIA ?

Whack.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7e4g3/found-page-25-of-the-cias-gateway-report-on-astral-projection
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: eyeball on May 13, 2021, 12:44:21 pm
Astral Projection and the CIA ?

Whack.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7e4g3/found-page-25-of-the-cias-gateway-report-on-astral-projection
Yep, it was a different time back then alright. There were a bunch of Gateway Experience cassettes produced by Robert Munroe (mentioned in the article) in my mom's stuff in a box along with material from something called the The Mind Awareness Institute which she subscribed to. Mom was a little off the wall that way but interestingly enough I also found a government report on investigations into such groups including her's. I suspect most governments were compelled to investigate these groups and their claims for the potential they had to lead people astray - presumably also into other dimensions if the CIA's research is anything to go by.

I even found results of testing my mom had done on my brother's for their psi abilities. I guess I'd made my escape to the west coast by then.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: cybercoma on May 14, 2021, 06:34:16 am
I have no interest in this thread until Charles Anthony shows up.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 25, 2021, 09:14:39 pm
I have no interest in this thread until Charles Anthony shows up.

Back during my brief stint as an MLW moderator, there was a thread where somebody posted links to satellite infrared temperature readings in reference to global warming, and Chuck was like "This stuff is make-believe and only exists in movies. Why are we letting people post links to science fiction to support their arguments?"

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 25, 2021, 09:47:57 pm
Back during my brief stint as an MLW moderator, there was a thread where somebody posted links to satellite infrared temperature readings in reference to global warming, and Chuck was like "This stuff is make-believe and only exists in movies. Why are we letting people post links to science fiction to support their arguments?"

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.

 -k

LOL, you can buy an infrared temperature gun at Canadian Tire or basically anywhere:  https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Electrical-Tools-Electrical-Testers/Infrared-Thermometer/N-5yc1vZboffZ1z1180y

I've used one and I still have no idea how it's able to work, it's basically magic, so I kinda get Charles point haha.  I couldn't stop pointing the laser on things to measure its temp.  I would point the laser on the wall and get a reading, then point it on a piece of metal nearby and get a colder reading, it was awesome.

P.S. Somebody buy me one.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 25, 2021, 10:09:17 pm
The dude literally believes that satellites are fake and not real.

 -k
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: the_squid on May 26, 2021, 01:53:32 am
The dude literally believes that satellites are fake and not real.

 -k

Graham?  Not surprised.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Culture
Post by: MH on May 26, 2021, 08:01:53 am

I think that was the first time I truly understood that we were dealing with a complete total mentally deranged crazy-person.


Smart guy though, and super nice.  Let's all celebrate him as well....  ;D