Canadian Politics Today

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: JMT on July 04, 2017, 10:09:13 pm


Title: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 04, 2017, 10:09:13 pm
Twitter and the media is abuzz with rumours of the Omar Khadr settlement and apology.   
While I personally don't feel that he wins human of the year award, I think that this settlement is deserved.  Several court judgments, including 3 by the SCOC went in his favour.  His rights were violated, and Canada was complicit. 

The debate today seems to be filled with an absence of facts from those against the settlement.  Emotion has no place in arguments of legal responsibility.  Someone on my Facebook feed posted the story and said what a sad day it was for Canada.  I responded by laying out the argument of a violation of rights, torture, a coerced confession, and very circumstantial evidence.  They responded by saying the best outcome would have been Khadr's death. 

It's hard to have a discussion with an irrational emotion.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 04, 2017, 11:51:26 pm
Only those who can ignore facts and get all emotional and angry about brow-skinned people could get upset about this.  His rights were violated by the Canadian gov't.   Unfortunate, but the right thing to do, based on the fact that the gov't was complicit in violating his rights.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 06, 2017, 10:21:26 am
The thing that blows my mind is a lot of "conservatives" on message boards and social media blaming Trudeau for "paying a terrorist." They don't even realize that Trudeau has literally ZERO control over the decision. This was the Supreme Court's ruling and the majority of justices on the bench there were appointed by Stephen Harper.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 06, 2017, 10:36:11 am
The thing that blows my mind is a lot of "conservatives" on message boards and social media blaming Trudeau for "paying a terrorist." They don't even realize that Trudeau has literally ZERO control over the decision. This was the Supreme Court's ruling and the majority of justices on the bench there were appointed by Stephen Harper.

Well, they all hate Trudeau so no surprise he can do no good in their eyes.  But in their defense, the settlement amount would have been negotiated by his government.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 06, 2017, 03:19:34 pm
Well, they all hate Trudeau so no surprise he can do no good in their eyes.  But in their defense, the settlement amount would have been negotiated by his government.

The settlement is based on precedent that was set by Harper with Maher Arar.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 07, 2017, 12:16:54 pm
The settlement is based on precedent that was set by Harper with Maher Arar.
Any relation to Bill Maher?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 07, 2017, 03:43:54 pm
Any relation to Bill Maher?

Probably not - I've seen two different spellings and I wasn't sure of the correct one.

Anyway, this:

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/07/07/opinion/what-if-omar-khadr-isnt-guilty

..and this:

https://twitter.com/shephardm/status/883119234422800386

are really things that the average person need to read.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 07, 2017, 04:46:52 pm
That national Observer article is right on the money. 

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 08, 2017, 10:25:18 pm
The thing that blows my mind is a lot of "conservatives" on message boards and social media blaming Trudeau for "paying a terrorist." They don't even realize that Trudeau has literally ZERO control over the decision. This was the Supreme Court's ruling and the majority of justices on the bench there were appointed by Stephen Harper.

That's not true at all!
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 08, 2017, 11:00:08 pm
That's not true at all!

The court ruled that Khadr's rights were violated in a similar manner to the was that Maher Arar's rights were violated.  Adjusted for inflation, they were awarded the exact same thing.  It seems completely fair.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 01:14:30 am
The court ruled that Khadr's rights were violated in a similar manner to the was that Maher Arar's rights were violated.  Adjusted for inflation, they were awarded the exact same thing.  It seems completely fair.

The court didn't award anything.  This was Trudeau's decision to pay out...and kiss his ass too.  Maybe the courts would've awarded him $10M, but Trudeau jumped in and made a backroom deal, probably in part to shake off the American widow who also has a judgemnet against Khadr. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 09, 2017, 09:24:01 am
If you actually read the facts of the situation (the reason for the payout being the violation of rights by Canada) and also understand the facts around the actual accusations and what happened, you realize that Trudeau really isn't a piece of **** for this.  Canada violated his rights in a similar way to others who have received similar payouts in the past.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 09, 2017, 01:40:24 pm
Sorry - did Trudeau or his government really negotiate this ?

Comments I saw online said this was done through arbitration.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 09, 2017, 04:30:13 pm
Sorry - did Trudeau or his government really negotiate this ?

Comments I saw online said this was done through arbitration.

Regardless, it would have been signed off by the highest levels of government.  This is too political to not have gone to the PMO.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 04:42:24 pm
If you actually read the facts of the situation (the reason for the payout being the violation of rights by Canada) and also understand the facts around the actual accusations and what happened, you realize that Trudeau really isn't a piece of **** for this.  Canada violated his rights in a similar way to others who have received similar payouts in the past.

Thanks for the thinly veiled insult.  I have "actually read the facts".  My point is about the process of how this went down.  Trudeau could've fought this - even a little.  Just out of decency and respect for the military who are asked to go fight in Afghanistan.  Sure, the government may lose the court battle, but the military would at least know that Trudeau has their back - that in itself is worth $10Mil.  How about allowing the widow a fighting chance to get some of that money owed to her?  No, the money will instead go towards lawyers and terrorism - how nice of Trudeau to support terrorism.  Trudeau, cut a secret back room deal to ensure that Khadr had time to hide the cash.  My opinion of Trudeau is worse than ever.  He is either a sympathizer or a coward.

What's the saying - It's better to die standing, than live on your knees.   
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 09, 2017, 05:23:15 pm
Regardless, it would have been signed off by the highest levels of government.  This is too political to not have gone to the PMO.

How does that work, though ?  If two parties are in dispute and it goes to arbitration - does one get final say ?  That seems to be a abrogation of process.  I wouldn't agree to such a thing, but I admit I don't know details.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 09, 2017, 05:42:09 pm
"Arbitration" can mean different things.  It doesn't have to be binding.  It's a negotiation, and you can bet something this political would go right to the top of government. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 05:55:53 pm
Arbitration is when an outside source - hopefully neutral, hears both sides and makes a decision.  This isn't what happened.  What happened is that Trudeau made a deal to make it all go away with as little media as possible. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 09, 2017, 06:36:50 pm
Well, reading the facts I know that there is serious doubt around Khadr's guilt, and a dearth of court decisions that show Canada violated his rights.  Given that, I don't see what we were going to fight, or why.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 07:09:39 pm
Well, reading the facts I know that there is serious doubt around Khadr's guilt, and a dearth of court decisions that show Canada violated his rights.  Given that, I don't see what we were going to fight, or why.

Really?  Well, how about the slimy way that our PM handled the settlement?  It sounds like you have it all figured out.  Maybe, as a moderator, you'd like to shut down the thread because you have a difference of opinion.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 09, 2017, 07:16:50 pm
I haven't shut down the thread and I don't intend to.  On this forum I participate as a member and only take action when absolutely necessary.

As for the way it was handled - I'm sure there were legal and privacy concerns to consider.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 09, 2017, 07:18:26 pm
Also, I'd just like to remind everyone to refrain from insulting politicians or each other.  Other than saying something that violates the law, anything else is fair game.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 09, 2017, 07:20:16 pm
I haven't shut down the thread and I don't intend to.

But that can change right ?  Ahhhh... moderation.  Let me know if you need a hand... I'm for hire at a very unreasonable rate.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 09, 2017, 07:42:41 pm
But that can change right ?  Ahhhh... moderation.  Let me know if you need a hand... I'm for hire at a very unreasonable rate.

I'd much rather just edit the offending part of posts.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 07:43:29 pm
I haven't shut down the thread and I don't intend to.  On this forum I participate as a member and only take action when absolutely necessary.

As for the way it was handled - I'm sure there were legal and privacy concerns to consider.

Pretty obvious there were privacy concerns - as in let's slip this under the radar.  And, the legal concerns were simply, "let's make sure the widow doesn't get judgement on Khadr's money".
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 09, 2017, 07:52:02 pm
Quote
"let's make sure the widow doesn't get judgement on Khadr's money".

How did they do that?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 09, 2017, 07:54:39 pm
I'd much rather just edit the offending part of posts.

Make sure to edit in apologies from me to all the pin-heads I have insulted, not mentioning names. :D
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 09, 2017, 09:43:05 pm
How did they do that?

You did read the story, right?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 10, 2017, 09:01:32 am
I have "actually read the facts".  My point is about the process of how this went down.  Trudeau could've fought this - even a little.
If you did read the fact, then you clearly didn't understand them because you would know that he couldn't fight it--even a little. The precedent was already set by Harper with Maher Arar.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 10, 2017, 11:28:27 am
Why couldn't he "fight it - even a little"?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 10, 2017, 11:36:28 am
Well, reading the facts I know that there is serious doubt around Khadr's guilt,

None whatsoever, actually. He is proven guilty simply by being there.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 10, 2017, 11:38:36 am
Also, I'd just like to remind everyone to refrain from insulting politicians or each other.  Other than saying something that violates the law, anything else is fair game.

We can't insult politicians? Why not? They insult us constantly. I can't talk about Trump without insulting him! And I'm not much fonder of the shiny pony.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 10, 2017, 12:48:52 pm
Why couldn't he "fight it - even a little"?

WHat was there to fight?  Canada violated his rights.  End of story.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 10, 2017, 01:42:42 pm
Thanks for the thinly veiled insult.  I have "actually read the facts".  My point is about the process of how this went down.  Trudeau could've fought this - even a little.  Just out of decency and respect for the military who are asked to go fight in Afghanistan.  Sure, the government may lose the court battle, but the military would at least know that Trudeau has their back - that in itself is worth $10Mil.  How about allowing the widow a fighting chance to get some of that money owed to her?  No, the money will instead go towards lawyers and terrorism - how nice of Trudeau to support terrorism.  Trudeau, cut a secret back room deal to ensure that Khadr had time to hide the cash.  My opinion of Trudeau is worse than ever.  He is either a sympathizer or a coward.

What's the saying - It's better to die standing, than live on your knees.

I believe Khadr's lawyer commenced claims against the Canadian government shortly after the SCC determined that the Canadian government failed its duty towards Khadr. That was quite a while ago.  I suggest that the Canadian  government didn't in fact roll over because it has taken from then to now to come to an agreement.
  Also, the Widow Spears successfully pursued claims against Khadr in a civil case regarding wrongful death of her husband. She did not pursue claims against the Canadian government. The Canadian government does not owe Mrs Spears a dime.   Khadr pursued his claim against the Canadian government and the Canadian government settled his claim by cashing out.  There is no obligation for the Canadian government to pay Mrs Spears. The money awarded Mrs. Spears is owed by Khadr so she can now pursue Mr.Khadr for the money she is owed.
  And what has the Canadian governments failure towards Khadr have to do with Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 10, 2017, 06:22:16 pm
WHat was there to fight?  Canada violated his rights.  End of story.

You people do know the meaning of the word "settlement"...right?  Yes, the court said that his rights were violated, but what do mean end of story? that cleary was not the "end of story".  The courts never awarded anything. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 10, 2017, 09:30:20 pm
You people do know the meaning of the word "settlement"...right?  Yes, the court said that his rights were violated, but what do mean end of story? that cleary was not the "end of story".  The courts never awarded anything.

The precedent was set with Maher Arar.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 10, 2017, 11:31:42 pm
You people do know the meaning of the word "settlement"...right?  Yes, the court said that his rights were violated, but what do mean end of story? that cleary was not the "end of story".  The courts never awarded anything.

I'm curious: how much do you think will be saved by not settling?

Give us your number: court award, additional legal costs on the government side, additional legal costs that you know would be awarded for Khadr's side.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 10, 2017, 11:35:37 pm
The precedent was set with Maher Arar.

It's not the same situation - at all.  And, you're trying to justify settling a law suit brought on by a terrorist.  Next, you'll be comparing Khadr to David Milgaard.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 10, 2017, 11:40:41 pm
I'm curious: how much do you think will be saved by not settling?

Give us your number: court award, additional legal costs on the government side, additional legal costs that you know would be awarded for Khadr's side.

I think by fighting the court case, I think the pride of the military will be saved, the relationship with the USA will be saved and who knows, maybe Trudeau's job would be saved.  71% of Canada is against this "settlement", I wouldn't redecorate the new home if I were Trudeau.

PS - If you talking about money, $20mil to fight this case is better money spent than $10.5mil to settle.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 11, 2017, 12:01:55 am
So a pyrrhic victory that is all about trying to save face.

I'd rather save the dough, admit to violations of citizen rights, accept accountability, and move on.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 12:21:32 am
So a pyrrhic victory that is all about trying to save face.

I'd rather save the dough, admit to violations of citizen rights, accept accountability, and move on.

Do you think Trudeau gives a crap about spending money.  He can throw $10mil down the toilet at any given special interest group before breakfast.

The court didn't order any payout and we don't know if they ever would.  Maybe they'd impose a $1.00 award or a $1million award - we don't know.  Just because Khadr wanted $20Million, we are supposed to believe, and I guess a few of you do, that we are getting a deal.

If the court wants to side with Khadr, I would make sure that it was the court that imposed the amount awarded.  Make the courts be accountable for their decisions.  Trudeau would at least have that to stand on.

As it is, Trudeau runs away so he doesn't have to answer questions, while his government publically kisses the ass of a killer terrorist. 

Come next election, I wouldn't bet a bucket of **** on Trudeau.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 11, 2017, 12:49:43 am
Had Harper defended a Canadian citizen with as much zeal as he defended his boutique tax cuts maybe I would give credence to the crap you spew.

This is all on Harper who, unlike counterparts in Australia, UK, France, Germany, etc could not be bothered to apply Cdn rights to defend a citizen from the tyranny of US military "law."

Harper should have defended Canadian citizenship against US laws which devalued our rights even while their own system was found to be contrary to the Geneva Convention. 

Shameful episode in our history thanks to appallingly weak leadership from the PMO. 

Trudeau can at least put this blunder behind us for a small cost.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 01:09:37 am
Had Harper defended a Canadian citizen with as much zeal as he defended his boutique tax cuts maybe I would give credence to the crap you spew.

This is all on Harper who, unlike counterparts in Australia, UK, France, Germany, etc could not be bothered to apply Cdn rights to defend a citizen from the tyranny of US military "law."

Harper should have defended Canadian citizenship against US laws which devalued our rights even while their own system was found to be contrary to the Geneva Convention. 

Shameful episode in our history thanks to appallingly weak leadership from the PMO. 

Trudeau can at least put this blunder behind us for a small cost.

I don't see that happening anytime soon, not before the next election anyway.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 01:15:23 am
It's not the same situation - at all.

It is exactly the same situation.  Leaving aside the fact that Khadr is probably innocent (a real court would have never even seen the case brought to trial given contradictory evidence.  A real court would also never have accepted the 'confession' given over a decade later under threat of continued torture and indefinite imprisonment) because it's irrelevant here, we are left with Canada violating his rights.  Canada violated Maher Arar's rights in a very similar way, and gave him a very similar reparation payment and apology.  Australia and the UK have given reparation payments to many of their citizens who were prisoners at Guantanamo as well.  It's not about the facts of the Khadr case as it relates to the crime that he was 'convicted' of committing, but the facts surrounding the breach of Charter rights by the Government of Canada.  Anything else is emotional garbage.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 11, 2017, 01:22:26 am
No one who would vote against Trudeau would change their mind anyway: so nothing to lose but clearing it up now.

And anyone who will vote for Trudeau either don't care or will forget about it in 4 weeks and ponder more meaningful things like healthcare, income taxes, infrastructure, etc....

Giving $10.5 million to a former child "soldier" who underwent torture and lacked due process, even from his own country who could have applied due process and perhaps could have convicted him of treason, is pretty embarassing for the Liberals and Conservatives.

Why either would want this to be in the spotlight is beyond me as no one has any dignity here: Martin's Liberals failed when Canadians interrogated him which was a violation of his rights and then Harper repeatedly failed by not getting him back into Canada.

Pity, would like to see Martin and Harper undergo some torture and see how they like it. Poetic justice.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 12:17:42 pm
It is exactly the same situation.  Leaving aside the fact that Khadr is probably innocent (a real court would have never even seen the case brought to trial given contradictory evidence.  A real court would also never have accepted the 'confession' given over a decade later under threat of continued torture and indefinite imprisonment) because it's irrelevant here, we are left with Canada violating his rights.  Canada violated Maher Arar's rights in a very similar way, and gave him a very similar reparation payment and apology.  Australia and the UK have given reparation payments to many of their citizens who were prisoners at Guantanamo as well.  It's not about the facts of the Khadr case as it relates to the crime that he was 'convicted' of committing, but the facts surrounding the breach of Charter rights by the Government of Canada.  Anything else is emotional garbage.

It's the same except for the fact that one guy was accused of being a terrorist - and wasn't, while the other guy was a terrorist, who comes from a known terrorist family, who built bombs and who was caught in a fight where he killed at least one person.  Other than that, yeah - the same.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 12:27:14 pm
You still haven't figured out that it's not about what Khadr supposedly did.  That's irrelevant.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 01:53:36 pm
You still haven't figured out that it's not about what Khadr supposedly did.  That's irrelevant.

We are obviously arguing two different perspectives.  Although  I don't agree with the courts decisions, that did make that decision - fair enough.  My point is that the amount of award, and the apology (at least) should've been fought.  The idea that "the court was gonna side with Khadr, so better give him $10.5Mil" - and get it to him before anyone finds out, doesn't wash with me.  Nor does it wash with 70% of the rest of Canadians. 
If the courts want to stand on the pedastal and dress down our government, then they can bear the responsibility of how much to pay out - As you said, the precedent was set with Arar, so chances are Khadr would be awarded no more than that $10.5mil anyway.  The government looks really bad on this one - and the people aren't pleased. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 11, 2017, 02:41:47 pm
Had Harper defended a Canadian citizen with as much zeal as he defended his boutique tax cuts maybe I would give credence to the crap you spew.

This is all on Harper who, unlike counterparts in Australia, UK, France, Germany, etc could not be bothered to apply Cdn rights to defend a citizen from the tyranny of US military "law."

You realize Khadr arrived in Gitmo in 2002, right? The interrogation by CSIS which forms the bulk of the complaint against the Canadian government happened in 2003 and 2004, when the Liberals were still in power.

Quote
Harper should have defended Canadian citizenship against US laws

Do you have any idea how many Canadians are in prisons around the world now which our government takes absolutely zero notice of? And most of them are real citizens, not citizens of convenience like the Khadrs.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 11, 2017, 02:43:17 pm
You still haven't figured out that it's not about what Khadr supposedly did.  That's irrelevant.

He was a foreign combatant in Afghanistan, sworn to  Al Quaeda.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 02:57:18 pm
You realize Khadr arrived in Gitmo in 2002, right? The interrogation by CSIS which forms the bulk of the complaint against the Canadian government happened in 2003 and 2004, when the Liberals were still in power.

Do you have any idea how many Canadians are in prisons around the world now which our government takes absolutely zero notice of? And most of them are real citizens, not citizens of convenience like the Khadrs.

I think the Canadian held in North Korea is a pastor...that dude picked the wrong religion (and color) if he's looking for help from Trudeau.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 03:25:14 pm
He was a foreign combatant in Afghanistan, sworn to  Al Quaeda.

It's not up to you to decide that.  I'm sure he had a lot of choice when his dad took him there at 9 years old.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 03:26:45 pm
I think the Canadian held in North Korea is a pastor...that dude picked the wrong religion (and color) if he's looking for help from Trudeau.

Has Canada violated his rights?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 03:28:01 pm
We are obviously arguing two different perspectives.  Although  I don't agree with the courts decisions, that did make that decision - fair enough.  My point is that the amount of award, and the apology (at least) should've been fought.  The idea that "the court was gonna side with Khadr, so better give him $10.5Mil" - and get it to him before anyone finds out, doesn't wash with me.  Nor does it wash with 70% of the rest of Canadians. 
If the courts want to stand on the pedastal and dress down our government, then they can bear the responsibility of how much to pay out - As you said, the precedent was set with Arar, so chances are Khadr would be awarded no more than that $10.5mil anyway.  The government looks really bad on this one - and the people aren't pleased.

The same survey has 79% of people admitting that they know almost nothing about the situation, so, there's that.  Charter rights aren't a popularity contest.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 04:49:05 pm
The same survey has 79% of people admitting that they know almost nothing about the situation, so, there's that.  Charter rights aren't a popularity contest.

Still arguing differing points!  However, to your point, it doesn't make a lick of difference if the general public understands the nuance of the - let's call it "arrangement" between Trudeau and Khadr.  What they know and will remember come election day is that Trudeau willingly offered up and paid up a large sum of money to a terrorist...and tried slipping it under the radar. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 11, 2017, 06:16:40 pm
Still arguing differing points!  However, to your point, it doesn't make a lick of difference if the general public understands the nuance of the - let's call it "arrangement" between Trudeau and Khadr.  What they know and will remember come election day is that Trudeau willingly offered up and paid up a large sum of money to a terrorist...and tried slipping it under the radar.

Conservatives never seem to understand that nuance is actually important.  It's not about his charges - it's about the abuse of his rights.  The inability to separate is a real failing.  The ability to jump to conclusions with no understanding, as demonstrated by the survey, is an even worse failing.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 11, 2017, 08:04:21 pm
Still arguing differing points!  However, to your point, it doesn't make a lick of difference if the general public understands the nuance of the - let's call it "arrangement" between Trudeau and Khadr.  What they know and will remember come election day is that Trudeau willingly offered up and paid up a large sum of money to a terrorist...and tried slipping it under the radar.

Seems to me people should understand why it's important to  protect and uphold our charter rights, even if we don't approve of every person those rights protect.  Championing and encouraging ignorance in the hopes your party will win the next election , which is what the Conservative party appears to be doing, seems remarkably stupid and shortsighted to me.  Unless you want a society in which an individual's rights are not guaranteed, of course. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 11, 2017, 09:25:36 pm
Conservatives never seem to understand that nuance is actually important.  It's not about his charges - it's about the abuse of his rights.  The inability to separate is a real failing.  The ability to jump to conclusions with no understanding, as demonstrated by the survey, is an even worse failing.

Maybe 7 out of 10 don't care about the nuance.  7 out of 10 don't care about Khadr's age.  7 out of 10 don't care about the right's of a traitor and terrorist.   I cared about Arar's rights, Khadr...not so much...and I can live with that.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 12, 2017, 12:04:46 pm
I cared about Arar's rights, Khadr...not so much...and I can live with that.
What a stupid position.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: BC_cheque on July 12, 2017, 12:35:17 pm
71% of Canada is against this "settlement", I wouldn't redecorate the new home if I were Trudeau.

71% of Canadians are looking at the issue emotionally.

We live in a civilized society where everyone, including murderers and child rapists, have rights.  Just because you dislike what someone does you can't take away their rights.

That's not how any of this works.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 12, 2017, 12:52:22 pm
71% of Canadians are looking at the issue emotionally.

We live in a civilized society where everyone, including murderers and child rapists, have rights.  Just because you dislike what someone does you can't take away their rights.

That's not how any of this works.

Courts take away or reduce rights every day.  What is jail/prison, what is the sex offender registry, if not a reduction in rights.  Courts can take away your kids.  The are many things a court does to take away or restrict your rights, some are more blatant than others, but rights, in many cases come with accountabilty. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 12, 2017, 12:59:28 pm
Courts take away or reduce rights every day.  What is jail/prison, what is the sex offender registry, if not a reduction in rights.  Courts can take away your kids.  The are many things a court does to take away or restrict your rights, some are more blatant than others, but rights, in many cases come with accountabilty.

In this case, the court wasn't deciding on Khadr's guilt or innocence, they were deciding whether Canada was guilty or innocent.  They decided Canada was guilty.  It isn't practical to put all of Canada into jail or even the entire government, so instead we pay a hefty fine.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 12, 2017, 01:40:26 pm
In this case, the court wasn't deciding on Khadr's guilt or innocence, they were deciding whether Canada was guilty or innocent.  They decided Canada was guilty.  It isn't practical to put all of Canada into jail or even the entire government, so instead we pay a hefty fine.

But lets not pretend that "rights are rights - end of story".  Your rights are not without strings attached.  Rights are simply what the government says they are. 

The ministry can take children from a parent without that parent having a trial.  IOW, a parent loses their rights until the government or court decides otherwise.  A driver can have his rights to drive taken away based on suspicion.   I don't want to get us off into the weeds, but lets not play the "rights are unquestionable" card.  It's simply not true in Canada...or anywhere else.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 12, 2017, 01:42:40 pm
You realize Khadr arrived in Gitmo in 2002, right? The interrogation by CSIS which forms the bulk of the complaint against the Canadian government happened in 2003 and 2004, when the Liberals were still in power.


You must have missed the post, right after that one, where I mention that both Martin and Harper deserved to undergo some torture as poetic justice for all of this. 

How convenient of you to miss this.

Quote
Do you have any idea how many Canadians are in prisons around the world now which our government takes absolutely zero notice of? And most of them are real citizens, not citizens of convenience like the Khadrs.

You must have missed the fact that Omar Khadr was born in Canada which makes him, by law, a Canadian citizen no matter where his dad drags him off to when he was a child. 

How convenient for you to miss this.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 12, 2017, 03:07:51 pm
What is jail/prison, what is the sex offender registry, if not a reduction in rights.
What is the threshold for taking away someone's mobility rights in Canada? Any clue? Or do you just think courts arbitrarily do this without due process?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: BC_cheque on July 12, 2017, 04:58:34 pm
Courts take away or reduce rights every day.  What is jail/prison, what is the sex offender registry, if not a reduction in rights.  Courts can take away your kids.  The are many things a court does to take away or restrict your rights, some are more blatant than others, but rights, in many cases come with accountabilty.

And what happens to people whose rights are unlawfully curtailed?  They sue.

Instead of asking the average Canadian what they think about this case, you should be asking what the legal community thinks. From what I've read they tend to agree that Canada was in violation of his rights.

I trust their opinion more than 71% of Canadians who seem unconcerned about what our Charter represents.

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 12, 2017, 08:17:01 pm
When someone says they don't care about or don't want the government to defend someone's rights, there's no discussion to be had with them. They're so irrational that they would gladly give up their freedoms for dogmatic claptrap. Yes, I said THEIR freedoms because Omar Khadr's rights are OUR rights. So if you won't stand up,for his, you're not standing up for your own.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 12, 2017, 08:22:35 pm
And what happens to people whose rights are unlawfully curtailed?  They sue.

Instead of asking the average Canadian what they think about this case, you should be asking what the legal community thinks. From what I've read they tend to agree that Canada was in violation of his rights.

I trust their opinion more than 71% of Canadians who seem unconcerned about what our Charter represents.

We've all agreed that the courts made a ruling and lots of lawyers - not all, about 2/3's do agree.  What me and 24 million other Canadians believe is that the restitution could've and should've been fought.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 12, 2017, 09:57:09 pm
We've all agreed that the courts made a ruling and lots of lawyers - not all, about 2/3's do agree.

Citation?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: BC_cheque on July 12, 2017, 11:30:20 pm
We've all agreed that the courts made a ruling and lots of lawyers - not all, about 2/3's do agree.  What me and 24 million other Canadians believe is that the restitution could've and should've been fought.

Hmmm, like jmt, I have a hard time believing 1/3 of the people who actually base their careers in law would disagree with the court's ruling.

As for the amount, here is what three lawyers says on the subject:

Quote
If the question is whether there was a sound basis for the government's decision to settle the civil suit by Mr. Khadr, I think the answer is yes.

The suit for $20 million Mr. Khadr brought in 2014 after his repatriation to Canada (following his plea arrangement) had a pretty reasonable chance of success. In effect, Mr. Khadr would have used the findings of fact accepted by the Supreme Court in 2010 (which found his charter rights had been violated by the involvement of Canadian officials who shared fruits of their interrogation with American officials) as a foundation for claims for charter damages, and damages for various torts (including conspiracy and misfeasance of public office).


Quote
I am sure the government received a risk analysis from Justice Department lawyers, which may have said that $10.5 million was a reasonable settlement. That should have factored into the government's decision, but it didn't need to be decisive. Unlike a class action, where the potential compensation could have ranged into hundreds of millions of dollars, the upper range of the risk in this case was limited.

Quote
The most recent guidance is found in the Ivan Henry case. In 2016, after having been successful in the Supreme Court in 2015, he was awarded $8 million at trial. He was wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for almost 27 years. Most of the award was to vindicate Mr. Henry's breached charter rights, and to deter similar breaches of charter rights.

Similarly, David Milgaard was paid $10 million in 1999 for over 22 years imprisonment. Steven Truscott received $6.5 million for 10 years in jail and living with the stigma of being a convicted murderer for almost 50 years.

The payments for wrongful convictions likely serve as the upper limit for charter breaches. For government, a certain practicality comes in: what's the price of not having this dragged out for another 10 years and having a possible further loss at the Supreme Court of Canada? That's where the $10.5 million figure comes from.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/politics/story/1.4199409

But sure, I'm sure you 71% know better.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 12, 2017, 11:54:35 pm
The thing that blows my mind is a lot of "conservatives" on message boards and social media blaming Trudeau for "paying a terrorist." They don't even realize that Trudeau has literally ZERO control over the decision. This was the Supreme Court's ruling and the majority of justices on the bench there were appointed by Stephen Harper.

Trudeau gov settled out of court with Khadr.  The Supreme Court never ruled Khadr to be paid a dime.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 12, 2017, 11:58:16 pm
That national Observer article is right on the money.

Khadr was a child terrorist fighting NATO.  There's video evidence of him turning landmines into EID's to plant against NATO forces.

If you and your Canadian family are fighting for the Taliban and al-Qaeda against the US and NATO, you're a piece of **** Canadian.  Don't care much if you were 15, I wasn't an idiot when I was 15.  If my dad wanted me to kill when I was 15 I'd tell him to screw off.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: waldo on July 13, 2017, 01:03:05 am
Trudeau gov settled out of court with Khadr.  The Supreme Court never ruled Khadr to be paid a dime.

so... are you simply dismissing the significance of the SCOC ruling? Are you willing to 'roll the dice' through the courts and... potentially... have a significantly larger payment decision along with... potentially... a requirement to cover millions in court costs?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 08:07:28 am
Trudeau gov settled out of court with Khadr.  The Supreme Court never ruled Khadr to be paid a dime.
The Supreme Court ruled that his rights had been violated and the settlement already had precedent with Maher Arar. Trudeau had ZERO choice. Either they settle for this amount or the spend millions more fighting a losing battle in court.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 13, 2017, 10:06:01 am
On top of a settlement likely saving millions in legal fees and possibly millions more in damages it also helps free up court resources for other cases.

Still unclear to me what the benefits of fighting this case to the bitter end would achieve other than to use up legal resources to eventually lose an already lost battle.   

The lawyers win as always while everyone else, especially taxpayers, lose.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 10:07:21 am
On top of a settlement likely saving millions in legal fees and possibly millions more in damages it also helps free up court resources for other cases.

Still unclear to me what the benefits of fighting this case to the bitter end would achieve other than to use up legal resources to eventually lose an already lost battle.   

The lawyers win as always while everyone else, especially taxpayers, lose.
It would give the Khadr haters a raging boner. I guess that's got to count for something.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 10:51:25 am
The Supreme Court ruled that his rights had been violated and the settlement already had precedent with Maher Arar. Trudeau had ZERO choice. Either they settle for this amount or the spend millions more fighting a losing battle in court.

That is so disingenuous, it's stunning.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 01:00:31 pm
Given that the SCC already ruled his rights were violated and there's a precedent set with Maher Arar, what exactly do you propose? On what grounds is there any legal or rational reason to fight it? I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 04:08:24 pm
Given that the SCC already ruled his rights were violated and there's a precedent set with Maher Arar, what exactly do you propose? On what grounds is there any legal or rational reason to fight it? I'm all ears.

How much money do you think a court would have ruled for?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 04:32:04 pm
Are we playing the question game?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 13, 2017, 05:00:57 pm
I saw an estimate of $30M.

I don't want to peer into the heart of the Liberal PMO (*cough*) but I will say that politics was not an non-consideration (double negative) in this decision.  At the least it was a not-Harper response.

I think it was a more fiscally responsible solution but let us please please please not pretend that the Liberals wanted to save Canada $20M when the Ontario Liberals happily wasted hundreds of millions cancelling a gas plant to win an election.

If they wanted to do the right thing, then fine.  Trudeau is now saying he wasn't happy with it, but that too is politics.

-----

I'm just talking on the political level here, not about there was a clear moral choice.  I wouldn't call myself a patriot before I would call myself a humanist but patriots are expressing moral outrage based on their particular value system.  I don't exactly share it but I respect their point of view.  The humanist point of view is closer to mine, and humanists are also expressing outrage AT the outrage, which I also respect.

Like I say, no easy moral answer here...
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 10:06:11 pm
I saw an estimate of $30M.

I don't want to peer into the heart of the Liberal PMO (*cough*) but I will say that politics was not an non-consideration (double negative) in this decision.  At the least it was a not-Harper response.

I think it was a more fiscally responsible solution but let us please please please not pretend that the Liberals wanted to save Canada $20M when the Ontario Liberals happily wasted hundreds of millions cancelling a gas plant to win an election.

If they wanted to do the right thing, then fine.  Trudeau is now saying he wasn't happy with it, but that too is politics.

-----

I'm just talking on the political level here, not about there was a clear moral choice.  I wouldn't call myself a patriot before I would call myself a humanist but patriots are expressing moral outrage based on their particular value system.  I don't exactly share it but I respect their point of view.  The humanist point of view is closer to mine, and humanists are also expressing outrage AT the outrage, which I also respect.

Like I say, no easy moral answer here...

The $30M number came from Trudeau himself, In fact he said $30-$40M.  On my facebook I had a link to an article that saidit would've cost in the $100s Thousands.  I don't see how any of this could've cost $30M, but If even a few people willingly buy into the narrative - it's probaly worth Trudeau's time to spew it.  No, this was about getting the deal done with time to recover before the next election, it was to prevent damaging info on past PM'S, It was about normalizing Khadr and equating him to people like Arar or Milgaard...and a few others.  It was about tying loose strings with the Islamic community,  It was about many things - all self serving for Trudeau and the Liberals.  And, by circumventing the widow, it keeps that - or should keep that away from our courts and the public eye too.  Anyone who buy's into the Trudeau was saving us some cash narrative are being fools.

The worst a court would've awarded Khadr was $10M - according to precedent, so why was he settled for $10.5M.?  Why not $5M.?  Why not throw it out there and let the court decide?  Chances are, Khadr's lawyer was threatning to throw every Liberal PM under the bus if it went to court.  This is all poltical, this is to cover Liberal ass, and it was done at all of our expense, not to mention the Military.  I hope it backfires - bigly!   
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 10:50:10 pm
That's it the worst. Not by a long shot. The court could have found it even more egregious than the Maher Arar case since he was captured and tortured as a child.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 11:04:00 pm
That's it the worst. Not by a long shot. The court could have found it even more egregious than the Maher Arar case since he was captured and tortured as a child.

That's your opinion.  There is not a case that the government has paid out more than $10.5m and all those cases were people who - you know, didn't actually kill anybody.  I know, I know you have to separate the murder from the way Canada handled the situation, but It would be really poor optics to pay Khadr twice the amount of Arar who was simply dragged off and "actually tortured" for absolutely nothing or Milgaard who was railroaded and lost 25 prime years of life.  As crazy as the court case is, I don't think for a second they would pull that on the Canadian people.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 13, 2017, 11:07:34 pm
And you don't know that he murdered anyone. Maybe if they didn't through a kid in prison without trial and torture him for half his life, the facts of the case could have actually been investigated.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 13, 2017, 11:18:44 pm
And you don't know that he murdered anyone. Maybe if they didn't through a kid in prison without trial and torture him for half his life, the facts of the case could have actually been investigated.

Yes, of course!  I'll just get on the 'slow train' and believe that.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 06:22:17 am
1) On my facebook I had a link to an article that saidit would've cost in the $100s Thousands. 

 2) The worst a court would've awarded Khadr was $10M - according to precedent, so why was he settled for $10.5M.?  Why not $5M.?  Why not throw it out there and let the court decide?  Chances are, Khadr's lawyer was threatning to throw every Liberal PM under the bus if it went to court.  This is all poltical, this is to cover Liberal ass, and it was done at all of our expense, not to mention the Military.  I hope it backfires - bigly!
1) That is too low, and the cost of trial doesn't seem to be in there.  Dealing with the former PM issues, appeals, official secrets would have drawn this out.  But it doesn't matter as I already said.  Even $40M is a drop in the bucket overall and Conservatives would have been willing to take the risk in order to pursue the moral case to not award the money.

2) Yes, maybe throwing former PMs under the bus but I don't think that would have reflected on former PMs.  I think it is political, but I don't think it is necessary cynical either.

This is a clash of values - humanists vs. patriots.  There's no significant argument beyond that IMO.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 14, 2017, 09:48:50 am
Khadr was a child terrorist fighting NATO.  There's video evidence of him turning landmines into EID's to plant against NATO forces.

If you and your Canadian family are fighting for the Taliban and al-Qaeda against the US and NATO, you're a piece of **** Canadian.  Don't care much if you were 15, I wasn't an idiot when I was 15.  If my dad wanted me to kill when I was 15 I'd tell him to screw off.

What terrorism?  That he made mines as a 15 year old because the adults around him told him too? That he actually went out and planted them because he was told to by the adults that had great amounts of control over him? that the IEDs were made and placed to kill american soldiers? The same soldiers fighting a war against the adults who had control?  Nothing terroristic there - thats just plain old war. 
  That he has been told he must have thrown the grenade that killed a soldier (un-uniformed one at that) that was attacking the compound that he was in? Again, if did indeed throw the grenade it was part of a war and is a quite regular thing to do in a battle as shown by all the other grenades uniformed and un-uniformed US soldiers were tossing around very shortly before he allegedly tossed one.
  I see nothing terrorist in Khadr's actions that day.

 Besides that I don't need to fight for the Taliban and/or al-Queda to be a piece of **** Canadian. I merely need to support the payout of $$$ to Mr Arar to be a piece of **** Canadian or merely throw a trailer hitch at some passing native or vote NDP. Its very easy to be a piece of **** Canadian. I passed that smell-test a long time ago. So did you I suspect.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 14, 2017, 09:54:35 am
That is so disingenuous, it's stunning.

 I don't think so. The SCC had already determined that the GoC **** it up. The only question that remained open was compensation. How much and under what terms? A very common thing to negotiate without a courtroom Judges ruling. Happens very often.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 14, 2017, 09:58:37 am
But it doesn't matter as I already said.  Even $40M is a drop in the bucket overall and Conservatives would have been willing to take the risk in order to pursue the moral case to not award the money.


Yes, taking the "moral high ground" while wasting taxpayer money.

So "moral" of them. 

I doubt a drawn out court/media campaign on this would significantly change peoples minds: either people support Charter rights for all, even for people we may not particularly like, or they don't.   
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on July 14, 2017, 10:14:34 am
Yes, taking the "moral high ground" while wasting taxpayer money.

Morality often costs money.  That's a choice we all make, doing the right thing because it's more expensive.
 
Quote
I doubt a drawn out court/media campaign on this would significantly change peoples minds: either people support Charter rights for all, even for people we may not particularly like, or they don't.

It's not minds, but values.  Very difficult to change those.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: msj on July 14, 2017, 02:23:20 pm
Yes, it does cost money.

Which is why it never should have gone to the SCC in the first place.

Just pay him out - we all knew the courts would find in his favour. 

It was/is immoral to keep it going for so long: it was a waste of taxpayer resources for a known outcome of which the only uncertainty was how much compensation should be paid. 

And what political points are they trying to score here by sinking more costs into it?

Martin is not PM anymore.

Harper isn't and is not planning to come back.

Trudeau?  Well, for ending this he earns points from me, but for not digging in for "moral" reasons he loses them with the conservative crowd (who, as I am plainly stating here, are not on the side of "morality").
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 14, 2017, 03:52:27 pm
Seems to me people should understand why it's important to  protect and uphold our charter rights,

Even people who never supported the Charter and don't support it now?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 14, 2017, 05:02:26 pm
Yes, it does cost money.

Which is why it never should have gone to the SCC in the first place.

Just pay him out - we all knew the courts would find in his favour. 

It was/is immoral to keep it going for so long: it was a waste of taxpayer resources for a known outcome of which the only uncertainty was how much compensation should be paid. 

And what political points are they trying to score here by sinking more costs into it?

Martin is not PM anymore.

Harper isn't and is not planning to come back.

Trudeau?  Well, for ending this he earns points from me, but for not digging in for "moral" reasons he loses them with the conservative crowd (who, as I am plainly stating here, are not on the side of "morality").

He lost points with more than the conservative crowd, he lost points with over 70% of Canadians.  How many votes that will translate to is To be determined, but it will be significant.  Trudeau didn't have to pay out 10.5$M, he chose to - and he chose to make the apology on behalf of Canadians.  Sorry, but I would've been fine if Trudeau had to do those things - he didn't have to - he chose to.

A Terrorist actually had our government, bow down and apologize to him - Shameful!
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 14, 2017, 08:02:16 pm
Even people who never supported the Charter and don't support it now?

Even those people.  The law applies to all, or it doesn't apply at all.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 14, 2017, 08:03:10 pm
A Terrorist actually had our government, bow down and apologize to him - Shameful!

Because we violated his rights - our (his) own laws. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 14, 2017, 08:26:05 pm
Even those people.  The law applies to all, or it doesn't apply at all.

Yeah, but you have to understand that if one doesn't support the Charter then one isn't going to give a damn about our 'Charter rights' being upheld.
I think that, as in the UK, we should have a privy council committee with the ability to overrule the supreme court when they step out of line. At least we could fire them if we didn't like their decisions.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 12:25:04 am
Even people who never supported the Charter and don't support it now?
Do you not see a problem with a government that picks and chooses which citizens shall be accorded rights that country claims to guarantee all it's citizens?   Most of the countries you object to receiving immigrants from have leaders who are only too happy to arbitrarily remove people's rights for the slimmest of reasons, regardless of what their laws claim to uphold.  Do you really want Canada to go that route?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 12:38:55 am
He lost points with more than the conservative crowd, he lost points with over 70% of Canadians.  How many votes that will translate to is To be determined, but it will be significant. 

Not the people who are able to understand that the crimes he is alleged to have committed have nothing to do with the laws Canada is required to follow in relation to it's own citizens.    Even if he did commit crimes, that doesn't make it ok for Canada to commit crimes against him.   
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 15, 2017, 10:55:31 am
Do you not see a problem with a government that picks and chooses which citizens shall be accorded rights that country claims to guarantee all it's citizens?   Most of the countries you object to receiving immigrants from have leaders who are only too happy to arbitrarily remove people's rights for the slimmest of reasons, regardless of what their laws claim to uphold.  Do you really want Canada to go that route?

IMO it's not, "which citizens shall be accorded rights", it should be "which acts of a citizen causes them to forfeit their rights".  In the case of treason - for example, a certain amount of rights should be withheld.  I know that in Canada, the word treason carries the same weight as jaywalking, but if a person is willing to physically fight and kill our own people, then maybe he doesn't deserve the same rights as other Canadians who don't kill our soliders. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 11:26:40 am
Do you not see a problem with a government that picks and chooses which citizens shall be accorded rights that country claims to guarantee all it's citizens?   Most of the countries you object to receiving immigrants from have leaders who are only too happy to arbitrarily remove people's rights for the slimmest of reasons, regardless of what their laws claim to uphold.  Do you really want Canada to go that route?

'regardless of what their laws claim'. Yes, indeed. The notion that laws protect your rights, that a piece of paper protects your rights, is nonsensical. It's childish. There are a lot of countries which have constitutions which say great things but they're ignored. The only thing that protects our rights is our collective will to maintain them. Allowing the privy council law committee to insert some common sense into things now and then wouldn't threaten our rights. By their nature, all broad-based laws or regulations come up against circumstances where they just do not work. That's why we need human intervention by people who have to get re-elected.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on July 15, 2017, 03:06:48 pm
Nothing terroristic there - thats just plain old war.
As a Canadian citizen, he did break the law by going to war against our ally, if you paint it that way. The issue then is hat he was a child combatant forced to fight by his father and the others around him. Those are the ones responsible for not only his crime but also having a child soldier.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 04:42:57 pm
'regardless of what their laws claim'. Yes, indeed. The notion that laws protect your rights, that a piece of paper protects your rights, is nonsensical. It's childish. There are a lot of countries which have constitutions which say great things but they're ignored. The only thing that protects our rights is our collective will to maintain them. Allowing the privy council law committee to insert some common sense into things now and then wouldn't threaten our rights. By their nature, all broad-based laws or regulations come up against circumstances where they just do not work. That's why we need human intervention by people who have to get re-elected.

You are assuming that this privy council would agree with your definition of 'common sense'.  What if they did not, and instead agreed that Canada could not simply ignore their own Charter?

Trudeau has to get re-elected and I bet he/his advisors had a clue there'd be backlash about this.  Still, they did it anyway.   

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 04:46:08 pm
IMO it's not, "which citizens shall be accorded rights", it should be "which acts of a citizen causes them to forfeit their rights".  In the case of treason - for example, a certain amount of rights should be withheld.  I know that in Canada, the word treason carries the same weight as jaywalking, but if a person is willing to physically fight and kill our own people, then maybe he doesn't deserve the same rights as other Canadians who don't kill our soliders.

I think treason would have been a reasonable crime to charge him with, and haven't seen any good reason why they did not. 

In the meantime, however, Canadians as represented by our government, failed to uphold our own laws.  So we were sued and the courts agree with the guy who sued us.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 15, 2017, 07:06:56 pm
IMO it's not, "which citizens shall be accorded rights", it should be "which acts of a citizen causes them to forfeit their rights".  In the case of treason - for example, a certain amount of rights should be withheld.  I know that in Canada, the word treason carries the same weight as jaywalking, but if a person is willing to physically fight and kill our own people, then maybe he doesn't deserve the same rights as other Canadians who don't kill our soliders.
hmmm. when would these certain amount of rights be with-held? Before or after the trial?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 15, 2017, 08:23:18 pm
You are assuming that this privy council would agree with your definition of 'common sense'.  What if they did not, and instead agreed that Canada could not simply ignore their own Charter?

Trudeau has to get re-elected and I bet he/his advisors had a clue there'd be backlash about this.  Still, they did it anyway.

But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people. And Trudeau doesn't get blamed for them any more than Harper did. Sure I might not agree with the privy council. But we do know they would, at least, be considering both common sense, and what the will of the people is, when they make their decisions. It's not like they would overrule the SC lightly. I can think of a few cases, though, which would have saved us a bloody fortune, like the Singh decision, as one example. Overruling that wouldn't have upset many, and would have saved us untold billions of dollars.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 15, 2017, 10:31:41 pm
But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people.

Sometimes that's a great thing.  Sometimes, in cases like this, where it's simply about right and wrong as our society has determined, we need an independent arbiter with a clear head.  The people get to make the laws through their representatives.  Our system was set up this way so that those laws are respected by the people, even when it seems inconvenient.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on July 15, 2017, 11:29:45 pm
But the Supreme Court doesn't have to get elected or re-elected. Their decisions don't reflect the will of the people. And Trudeau doesn't get blamed for them any more than Harper did. Sure I might not agree with the privy council. But we do know they would, at least, be considering both common sense, and what the will of the people is, when they make their decisions. It's not like they would overrule the SC lightly. I can think of a few cases, though, which would have saved us a bloody fortune, like the Singh decision, as one example. Overruling that wouldn't have upset many, and would have saved us untold billions of dollars.

If continuing to fight the court decision would have cost us millions more, then Trudeau showed common sense by settling for less now.   Imagining that a privy council would have made a decision that you like better, because they rely on voter goodwill, seems a bit odd since you regularly bemoan your belief that Liberals are voted in by stupid and lazy people who think only of the freebies that they'll get.  Why would you expect that those same voters would force a privy council to make decisions that you like more times than not? 

Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 16, 2017, 09:43:35 am
Sometimes that's a great thing.  Sometimes, in cases like this, where it's simply about right and wrong as our society has determined, we need an independent arbiter with a clear head.  The people get to make the laws through their representatives.  Our system was set up this way so that those laws are respected by the people, even when it seems inconvenient.

The problem is the SC is politicized by the nature of their appointment process. And the nature of the Charter has freed senior judges from needing to be accountable to anyone for their decisions. To suggest that these are simply learned scholars of law deciding things in an unbiased fashion is naive. These are political and ideological  people who have their own beliefs about how society should be structured.  McLachlan has been a particular advocate of judge-made law (even more than her predecessor), of judges not abiding by the written law but freely 'interpreting it' according to their own ideological biases, preferences and prejudices.

As an example, the SC has, on several occasions, changed the law on the basis of 'times and values have changed'. I'm sorry, but that should not be up to judges. If times have changed and Canadian values have changed, then their democratically appointed representatives are free to change an archaic law which no longer suits them. Judges ought to abide by a law until and unless parliament changes it.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 16, 2017, 09:46:31 am
Imagining that a privy council would have made a decision that you like better, because they rely on voter goodwill,

Not just because they rely on voter goodwill, but because they can bring an element of practicality into their decisions the SC ignores. For example, the Sing decision, which granted full Charter rights to all refugees, has turned our refugee determination process into an agonizingly slow, drawn out, and hideously expensive farce where phony refugees go through years of expensive appeals (all of which we pay for) before we can boot them out. A privy council law council might just overrule that, saying it was impractical and not in Canada's interest. They likewise might have overruled the courts on the subject of native oral histories, dismissing them as completely unreliable (which they are, of course) and not be used as evidence.

Quote
  Why would you expect that those same voters would force a privy council to make decisions that you like more times than not?

As unreliable as the largely indifferent public is, especially given the third-rate nature of Canada's media, democracy is the only brake we have on governmental stupidity, criminality and arrogance. And the SC, as constituted, has NO brake or restraints whatsoever. They can quite literally make any sort of decision they want on the basis of whyever they want to make it, and cannot be challenged.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 16, 2017, 06:28:49 pm
The problem is the SC is politicized by the nature of their appointment process. And the nature of the Charter has freed senior judges from needing to be accountable to anyone for their decisions. To suggest that these are simply learned scholars of law deciding things in an unbiased fashion is naive. These are political and ideological  people who have their own beliefs about how society should be structured.  McLachlan has been a particular advocate of judge-made law (even more than her predecessor), of judges not abiding by the written law but freely 'interpreting it' according to their own ideological biases, preferences and prejudices.

In fact, interpretation of the Constitution is the sole purview of the Supreme Court.  They're doing their job, even if you don't like it.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on July 16, 2017, 10:47:07 pm
Not just because they rely on voter goodwill, but because they can bring an element of practicality into their decisions the SC ignores. For example, the Sing decision, which granted full Charter rights to all refugees, has turned our refugee determination process into an agonizingly slow, drawn out, and hideously expensive farce where phony refugees go through years of expensive appeals (all of which we pay for) before we can boot them out. A privy council law council might just overrule that, saying it was impractical and not in Canada's interest. They likewise might have overruled the courts on the subject of native oral histories, dismissing them as completely unreliable (which they are, of course) and not be used as evidence.

  I do not think it 'practical' that Canadian law treat folks within its jurisdiction with differing levels of rights. Some get legal rep, some don't. That strikes me as very impractical.  And regarding oral histories, they are not completely unreliable, of course, and can be used as evidence - See testimony in courtrooms.


Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 17, 2017, 12:08:46 pm
In fact, interpretation of the Constitution is the sole purview of the Supreme Court.  They're doing their job, even if you don't like it.

No. Interpreting used to mean examining the fine print, and using that, in terms of Parliament's desires when it was written, to decide laws. It now means interpreting laws in light of just about anything a judge decides. For example, nowhere in law written by parliament does it accept oral history. In fact, it explicitly refuses to accept hearsay evidence. But the judges decided to change that for natives. That isn't interpreting the legislation. That's changing the rules.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 17, 2017, 12:12:14 pm
  I do not think it 'practical' that Canadian law treat folks within its jurisdiction with differing levels of rights.

And yet we do that anyway. Some people get to vote, others don't. Some can consume alcohol, others can't. There are requirements for certain government jobs that you be a citizen.

Practicality would be putting all refugee applicants into camps, giving them very quick hearings, and then deporting any who fail. But the courts won't allow that. Instead we have them here for years on welfare while they launch expensive appeal after appeal. And by the time they've run through them all years have passed and they launch fresh appeals based on their having established ties here, perhaps married, and that it would now be inhumane to remove them.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 01:49:17 pm
No. Interpreting used to mean examining the fine print, and using that, in terms of Parliament's desires when it was written, to decide laws. It now means interpreting laws in light of just about anything a judge decides. For example, nowhere in law written by parliament does it accept oral history. In fact, it explicitly refuses to accept hearsay evidence. But the judges decided to change that for natives. That isn't interpreting the legislation. That's changing the rules.

The foundational documents that give indigenous people their rights are Constitutional.  Like it or not, their oral traditions are part of our legal foundations.  We've only come to recognize it now.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on July 17, 2017, 04:34:33 pm
The deal gets the Fox News treatment:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/17/omar-khadr-canada-pays-ex-gitmo-detainee-who-killed-us-soldier-millions-but-soldiers-widow-may-never-see-dime.html
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: SirJohn on July 18, 2017, 11:00:45 am
The foundational documents that give indigenous people their rights are Constitutional.  Like it or not, their oral traditions are part of our legal foundations.  We've only come to recognize it now.

What you mean is the judges decided to ignore the law and to make their own law, due entirely to their ideological sympathy for the native cause. There is no way parliament would have written into law that whatever some native says his grandfather was told by HIS grandfather should be taken as evidence.

There is also no other situation where a court will be guided by what a signee of a contract might have thought they were signing, vs what was in the contract. We won't accept this for a contract signed today, but the courts will allow a person today to testify that a hundred years ago the party which signed the contract thought it meant something different - based on oral history. It's absurd.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 24, 2017, 01:45:36 pm
The perspective of the medic who saved Khdr's life:

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/medic-account-omar-khadr-1.4218853

Interesting read.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: kimmy on July 25, 2017, 10:41:29 pm
Interesting read.

Sure. You're a medic, you save a life if you can.


And unfortunately, I have to agree that the government failed its duty to Omar.


That said, I hate the Khadrs. I hope they take the $10.5 million and **** off to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or whatever shithole country suits their shitbag ideology.

 -k
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: poochy on July 26, 2017, 04:42:53 pm
i think im less bothered by the settlement than i am by the belief some seem to have that our constitution is an infallible document and things are the way they are because they have to be.   

Has anyone explained the cozy link between the LPC and this family?  Why did Chretien get his father out of a Pakistani prison while under suspicion of terrorism in the first place and did they go out of their way to ignore Omar because of this embarrassing link?  I really got a kick out of Goodale trying to lay blame with the conservatives when he was in the government that violated Khadrs rights, it smells of something.

I don't really expect our media to investigate the LPC but you do have to wonder.  In the end we are responsible, we have to follow our own laws and our constitution, but that comes up pretty short from the same thing as saying that our Constitution was ever meant to cover this sort of situation.  Excluding the child soldier aspect, this is a family of bad people, I feel no loyalty towards them, and they only seemed to have had any towards us when it was advantageous to them, our constitution wasn't designed with that in mind.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Peter F on August 26, 2017, 02:53:03 am
[q]our constitution wasn't designed with that in mind.[/q]...    I certainly hope not. 

As for Khadr Sr.: The government did what the government should have done with Khadr Jr.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Goddess on August 28, 2017, 09:58:46 am
Quote
I feel no loyalty towards them, and they only seemed to have had any towards us when it was advantageous to them, our constitution wasn't designed with that in mind.

Which is why some of us are saying that it needs to be changed, and our immigration laws need to change in order to deal with these types of people coming into Canada. 

The Khadrs have never been anything but openly hostile to Canadian generosity. 

We have to have a way to get these types of people OUT and keep them from taking advantage of us and draining our social systems.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JBG on September 05, 2017, 07:58:50 pm
Only those who can ignore facts and get all emotional and angry about brow-skinned people could get upset about this.  His rights were violated by the Canadian gov't.   Unfortunate, but the right thing to do, based on the fact that the gov't was complicit in violating his rights.
Why, in the drive to protect the "rights" of brown skin people, we intent on immolating Western culture? How about integration and inclusiveness, and patriotism?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on September 05, 2017, 08:35:06 pm
I would say that rights trump inclusivity any day of the week.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JBG on September 05, 2017, 09:19:09 pm
I would say that rights trump inclusivity any day of the week.
No one should have rights based entirely on political correctness though.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on September 05, 2017, 09:28:33 pm
No one should have rights based entirely on political correctness though.

Who has that?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: guest4 on September 05, 2017, 10:21:43 pm
Why, in the drive to protect the "rights" of brown skin people, we intent on immolating Western culture?

Are rights for "brown" people less important than rights for not-brown people?   Either we live in a country where all citizens have the same rights or we don't.  I personally support rights for everyone, not just the "politically correct" people. 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JBG on September 05, 2017, 11:46:33 pm
Are rights for "brown" people less important than rights for not-brown people?   Either we live in a country where all citizens have the same rights or we don't.  I personally support rights for everyone, not just the "politically correct" people.
Then we agree. I just don't want to favor "brown skin people" over "whites" either.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 06, 2017, 06:20:32 am
Then we agree. I just don't want to favor "brown skin people" over "whites" either.

I don't think skin colour was a factor in this case anyway.  I can't think of an example where legislation proposed would reduce integration, inclusiveness and patriotism to help 'brown people'.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: cybercoma on September 07, 2017, 09:48:44 pm
Why, in the drive to protect the "rights" of brown skin people, we intent on immolating Western culture? How about integration and inclusiveness, and patriotism?
You know people have the same rights regardless of their skin colour, right? "Protecting the rights of brown-skinned people" is literally just protecting everyone's rights.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: waldo on February 11, 2020, 11:29:13 am
ya ya, Ezra Levant is an a-hole regularly displaying his a-holiness over the years. Making the rounds in recent days is a short-version video of a police-officer interacting with Ezrant after he had confronted Omar Khadr at the Halifax airport... both Levant/Khadr had traveled on the same plane.

the following 3.5 minute full-video has been posted by Ezrant's Rebel News - it includes the complete confrontation and Khadr's tempered response... and the ensuing police engagement to allow Khadr to leave the airport while preventing Levant from continuing his pursuit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpYODG_Bk2E

(Khadr was in Halifax at the request of a Dalhousie University group; asked to give the keynote address in regards an event related to the International Day Against Using Child Soldiers)
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 11, 2020, 11:55:28 am
"SHOCK VIDEO" ... what else from The Rebel...
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: kimmy on February 11, 2020, 08:15:20 pm
Regardless how you feel about Omar Khadr, I think that we can all agree that Ezra Levant is a **** piece of crap.

 -k
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 11, 2020, 09:33:28 pm
Regardless how you feel about Omar Khadr, I think that we can all agree that Ezra Levant is a **** piece of crap.

 -k

He's a weird guy, that's for sure.  But he is a member of the media and on public space, and the question he kept asking - why is Khadr not on the no-fly list - is a valid one.  I'd like to know.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2020, 01:57:36 am
why is Khadr not on the no-fly list - is a valid one.  I'd like to know.

do you have the conditions/criteria that would place someone on Canada's no-fly list. As you seem to imply Mr. Khadr should be on said list, of those conditions/criteria you haven't (yet) qualified, which one(s) are you using to support your implication?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 06:55:54 am
He's a weird guy, that's for sure.  But he is a member of the media and on public space, and the question he kept asking - why is Khadr not on the no-fly list - is a valid one.  I'd like to know.

He’s not a member of the media.  Not in any credible way, anyway.  The answer to the question is none of his business.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Granny on February 12, 2020, 01:58:50 pm
Just going to jump in here and say ... Omar Khadr's first trial was the most informative. It was a military tribunal that only got to pre-trial before being shut down by the newly elected Obama administration.
I followed it via news media from the Texas? town where it was held.

This is my memory of what I read:
A US soldier testified that he quickly looked around the wall, saw a large pile of debris and one remaining live and armed AlQuaeda fighter ... and THEN the grenade that killed Christopher Speer came over the wall.
When US soldiers went around the wall, the remaining armed AlQuaeda fighter was executed.
Then they heard moaning from the pile of debris, and found Omar Khadr under it, unarmed and severely injured. The US soldier testified that Omar Khadr could not have thrown the grenade because he was already under the pile of debris.

That US soldier was not heard from again in the subsequent trial, where it was expedient for Khadr to take a plea to minimize his jail time.

Surprisingly, I have now found mention of this in Canadian news:
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2008/03/13/lawyer_khadr_report_altered.html


The military commander’s official report the day after the raid originally said the assailant who threw the grenade was killed, which would rule out Khadr as the suspect.

The report was revised months later, under the same date, to say a U.S. fighter had only “engaged” the assailant, according to Kuebler, who said the later version was presented to him by prosecutors as an “updated” document.

Kuebler told reporters after the hearing that it appears “the government manufactured evidence to make it look like Omar was guilty.”


Review here:
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/07/07/opinion/what-if-omar-khadr-isnt-guilty

There are those (like Rebel Media) who don't care about truth, only about demonizing Muslims as 'terrorists'.

But I thought I'd just bring this up for other inquiring minds who might take an interest in this largely unknown bit of truth.

Khadr himself has acknowledged that he has no memory of those crucial moments (perhaps being already injured and under a pile of debris).

Less known, too, is that US soldiers shot him twice after finding him, until a senior officer heard him say he was Canadian. It's a miracle he survived, and he was potentially a huge embarrassment to the US military ...
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 07:00:05 pm
do you have the conditions/criteria that would place someone on Canada's no-fly list. As you seem to imply Mr. Khadr should be on said list, of those conditions/criteria you haven't (yet) qualified, which one(s) are you using to support your implication?

He's a terrorist, he's seen on videotape making IED's in Afghanistan to kill NATO soldiers.  Maybe consider not letting people on planes who have a knowledge and history of making homemade bombs for the purposes of terrorism.  I'm there's that.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 07:08:46 pm
He’s not a member of the media.  Not in any credible way, anyway.  The answer to the question is none of his business.

Well, his media outlet is really crappy, easily one of the crappiest in Canada, but that doesn't mean he's not a member of the media if we happen to disagree with his media coverage.  Our Charter rights, freedom of the press et al, do not depend on whether we like a person or not.  TMZ is media too.

He has a right to ask Omar a question just like media can go to a courthouse and put a mic and camera near a person's face, and Omar has the right not to answer, as he did.  If we're going to defend Omar's rights, as we should, we should defend Ezra's too.

I don't enjoy defending the guy, but he does get unjustly bullied/censored by police/authorities because of his political leanings (note, he's a lawyer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfyyxyRK9gE
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 13, 2020, 08:13:26 am
He doesn't get bullied, he is a bully.  It's likely that by any actual legal standard Khadr is innocent.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Granny on February 13, 2020, 08:15:49 am
He's a terrorist, he's seen on videotape making IED's in Afghanistan to kill NATO soldiers.  Maybe consider not letting people on planes who have a knowledge and history of making homemade bombs for the purposes of terrorism.  I'm there's that.

He was a 14 year old kid under orders from his terrorist father. He was never convicted for that.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 15, 2020, 12:26:36 am
He doesn't get bullied, he is a bully. 

He does get bullied, by the state no less.  If you don't see that you don't believe in democracy.  Doesn't mean some of the stuff he says isn't bad/wrong.  Ya he's a bully and a blowhard, but he still has rights.  You didn't watch the video i linked.

Quote
It's likely that by any actual legal standard Khadr is innocent.

Maybe of the grenade incident, but he's also on videotape making IED's in Afghanistan.  He was without question a teenaged terrorist.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: waldo on February 15, 2020, 12:45:59 am
He was without question a teenaged terrorist child soldier.

fixed it for ya!
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 02:14:50 am
fixed it for ya!

Child solider...AND? 

I'm sure you'd enjoy flying on a plane with Omar, sounds like fun to me!

More like teenaged solider.  A **** child is 8, not 15, don't give a crap what the definition says.

Omar's resistance to his parent's terrorism lifestyle is legendary!

F*** Omar Khadr right to fly.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2020, 02:24:13 pm

Omar's resistance to his parent's terrorism lifestyle is legendary!


With all due respect, you know **** all about him.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 04:19:26 pm
With all due respect, you know **** all about him.

I know he's a terrorist and I wouldn't want to fly on a plane with him.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 04:33:24 pm
I know he's a terrorist and I wouldn't want to fly on a plane with him.

No you don't know that. There is no clear evidence he threw the grenade that killed Speer and even if he did, if using a grenade in a firefight makes you a terrorist then there are a shitload of soldiers around the world who are now terrorists. And then of course there was that 10 years in Gitmo during which he was tortured into making a confession. If you don't want to fly on a plane with him then stay home or catch a different flight.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2020, 05:49:00 pm
I know he's a terrorist and I wouldn't want to fly on a plane with him.

Not only would he have not been found guilty in civilian court with his normal rights, but it would not have even went to trial:

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/07/07/opinion/what-if-omar-khadr-isnt-guilty
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 09:34:07 pm
No you don't know that. There is no clear evidence he threw the grenade that killed Speer and even if he did, if using a grenade in a firefight makes you a terrorist then there are a shitload of soldiers around the world who are now terrorists. And then of course there was that 10 years in Gitmo during which he was tortured into making a confession. If you don't want to fly on a plane with him then stay home or catch a different flight.

Bro, there's video evidence of Omar constructing IED's in Afghanistan.  It's on Youtube.  Guy is rich, he can buy his own helicopter.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 09:50:08 pm
Not only would he have not been found guilty in civilian court with his normal rights, but it would not have even went to trial:

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/07/07/opinion/what-if-omar-khadr-isnt-guilty

Here's video of Omar Khadr constructing IED's and then smiling while planting them at night, then chillin with an AK-47 behind him.  The video was found at the compound where he was captured.  And you want this guy on planes?  K cool.

https://www.dvidshub.net/video/305992/ied-video-with-omar-khadr

F*** him and his family.  Make an example out of all of them.  You fight against Canada and Canada is done with you.  That was Harper's stance, but he took it too far. 

That p**sy Trudeau reversed the law where terrorists could get stripped of Citizenship.  Trudeau is a terrorist P**sy licker and has been in the same room with 2 of them.  Moron.  Lick Trudeau's p**sy won't you.  You pledge war against Canada you're not a Canadian anymore.  Bye-bye voting rights and passport, GTFO of my country before I kill you myself.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 09:54:48 pm
Bro, there's video evidence of Omar constructing IED's in Afghanistan.  It's on Youtube.  Guy is rich, he can buy his own helicopter.

This was clearly a firefight with distinct combatants on both sides. Nobody was out to terrorize anybody, and Khadr was equipped with conventional firearms.

To call throwing a grenade in a battle "murder" is ludicrous in the extreme.

To follow that logic, the American soldiers involved should be charged with attempted murder given that Khadr was shot twice and suffered shrapnel wounds prior to being captured.

Moreover, there is no clear-cut evidence that Khadr actually threw the grenade that killed Speer. There was no independent verification of Khadr’s actions. During his lengthy 10-year captivity at Guantanamo Bay, Khadr was tortured by his U.S. captors. His "confession" to Speer’s death was obtained by torture and to secure his release from Guantanamo and his transfer to a Canadian prison, his lawyers say. Khadr is seeking to have the confession overturned.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/omar-khadr-terrorist-murderer-none-of-the-above/
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 09:57:51 pm
You didn't read my post.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 09:58:57 pm
He's a friggin terrorist.  Defend him like a fool, please.  Feel bad for him, let him fly on planes.  Poor guy. F*** him.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 10:03:47 pm
He's a friggin terrorist.  Defend him like a fool, please.  Feel bad for him, let him fly on planes.  Poor guy. F*** him.

Illegally held in a US prison without access to legal representation for something there is no actual proof he committed. I bet you'd feel bad if that happened to you. Harper also was derelict in his duties.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 10:10:43 pm
Illegally held in a US prison without access to legal representation for something there is no actual proof he committed. I bet you'd feel bad if that happened to you. Harper also was derelict in his duties.

I agree with you.  He's still a terrorist POS.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 10:15:14 pm
I agree with you.  He's still a terrorist POS.

You're entitled to your opinion.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2020, 10:22:04 pm
He's a friggin terrorist.  Defend him like a fool, please.  Feel bad for him, let him fly on planes.  Poor guy. F*** him.

Our Constitution protects all of us, even criminals and terrorists.  It's unlikely that Khadr is either of those things.  You're the one being the fool.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 10:28:22 pm
Our Constitution protects all of us, even criminals and terrorists.  It's unlikely that Khadr is either of those things.  You're the one being the fool.

LOL.  Watch the video.  NATO also doesn"t raid the compounds of nurses and social workers.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2020, 10:29:57 pm
LOL.  Watch the video.  NATO also doesn"t raid the compounds of nurses and social workers.

I'm not saying he wasn't there. I'm not saying his parents weren't terrible people.  I'm saying that there is reasonable doubt about Khadr's guilt.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 10:37:06 pm
I'm not saying he wasn't there. I'm not saying his parents weren't terrible people.  I'm saying that there is reasonable doubt about Khadr's guilt.

Sure, with the grenade incident.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: JMT on February 16, 2020, 10:38:49 pm
Sure, with the grenade incident.

Yes, and that's what he was found guilty of.  The evidence actually points to him not being guilty.  We know he was tortured, and we know he was tried in a kangaroo court that the US Supreme Court flat out said was violating people's constitutional rights.  We know that Canadian official violated his constitutional rights.  Khadr is an example of a travesty of justice.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 10:44:44 pm
I agree with you.  He's still a terrorist POS.

I suggest studying up on a legal term known as habeas corpus.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 10:59:12 pm
Yes, and that's what he was found guilty of.  The evidence actually points to him not being guilty.  We know he was tortured, and we know he was tried in a kangaroo court that the US Supreme Court flat out said was violating people's constitutional rights.  We know that Canadian official violated his constitutional rights.  Khadr is an example of a travesty of justice.

I fully agree.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 16, 2020, 11:00:07 pm
I suggest studying up on a legal term known as habeas corpus.

Being unjustly denied habeas corpus doesn't make a terrorist not a terrorist.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 11:04:12 pm
Being unjustly denied habeas corpus doesn't make a terrorist not a terrorist.

Um, what it does do is disallow that person the chance for evidence to be revealed to determine what actually occurred.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on February 16, 2020, 11:17:26 pm
Being unjustly denied habeas corpus doesn't make a terrorist not a terrorist.

And as I previously stated you are entitled to your opinion you derive form youtube stuff or whatever, but such cases really are meant to be decided in a proper court, and without having to be denied your rights in a foreign prison. Any ideas why they set up that prison in Cuba?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Granny on March 13, 2020, 01:07:09 pm
Being unjustly denied habeas corpus doesn't make a terrorist not a terrorist.

Are you aware that a US soldier who was there testified that Khadr could not have thrown the grenade that killed Christopher Speer, as Khadr was already under a pile of debris at the time, severely injured.

That testimony was at the initial military pretrial (shut down before trial) but was never heard at his civilian trial.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: kimmy on March 13, 2020, 01:58:45 pm
The thing I don't get is, he's a child soldier, it's his family's fault for putting him in this terrible situation... so the first thing he does after he gets his $10 million settlement? Goes to court to argue against restrictions against him seeing his mother and sister.  His mother, in particular, was the one who was in the media talking about how it was better that her sons went to Afghanistan to fight for god rather than stay in Canada and become drug-addicts or homosexuals.

 -k
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 13, 2020, 02:07:19 pm
The thing I don't get is, he's a child soldier, it's his family's fault for putting him in this terrible situation... so the first thing he does after he gets his $10 million settlement? Goes to court to argue against restrictions against him seeing his mother and sister.  His mother, in particular, was the one who was in the media talking about how it was better that her sons went to Afghanistan to fight for god rather than stay in Canada and become drug-addicts or homosexuals.

 -k

I think you’re incorrect about his mother being part of his fight against his restrictions.

 
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 02:15:33 pm
The thing I don't get is, he's a child soldier, it's his family's fault for putting him in this terrible situation... so the first thing he does after he gets his $10 million settlement? Goes to court to argue against restrictions against him seeing his mother and sister.  His mother, in particular, was the one who was in the media talking about how it was better that her sons went to Afghanistan to fight for god rather than stay in Canada and become drug-addicts or homosexuals.

 -k

He spent 10 years in an essentially illegal prison which stripped him of his rights, after being convicted in a military kangaroo court for throwing a grenade that a soldier who was actually on the scene claimed didn't/couldn't have happened. Sorry if you don't like dark skinned people with religions that differ from yours but this guy has paid large price based on similar narrow mindedness. Maybe give him a break eh.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 04:15:05 pm
Are you aware that a US soldier who was there testified that Khadr could not have thrown the grenade that killed Christopher Speer, as Khadr was already under a pile of debris at the time, severely injured.

That testimony was at the initial military pretrial (shut down before trial) but was never heard at his civilian trial.

Are you aware that you can go on google and see video of Khadr making IEDs and laughing while planting them at night to kill NATO soldiers, which includes Canadian soldiers?  Are you aware that there is an AK-47 sitting behind Khadr in the video?

I don't know if he threw that grenade, and never claimed he did.  I do know he's a terrorist.

https://www.dvidshub.net/video/305992/ied-video-with-omar-khadr
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 04:18:16 pm
He spent 10 years in an essentially illegal prison which stripped him of his rights, after being convicted in a military kangaroo court for throwing a grenade that a soldier who was actually on the scene claimed didn't/couldn't have happened. Sorry if you don't like dark skinned people with religions that differ from yours but this guy has paid large price based on similar narrow mindedness. Maybe give him a break eh.

There's no doubt the Harper government violated his human rights.  He should have sued the government and he should have been financially compensated.  But he's still a terrorist and shouldn't be flying on airplanes.

He's on video making and planting EID's in Afghanistan to kill NATO soldiers.  This video was found when he was captured.  If you fight to murder Canadian/NATO soldiers you lose your right to fly on airplanes.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 04:33:43 pm
There's no doubt the Harper government violated his human rights.  He should have sued the government and he should have been financially compensated.  But he's still a terrorist and shouldn't be flying on airplanes.

He's on video making and planting EID's in Afghanistan to kill NATO soldiers.  This video was found when he was captured.  If you fight to murder Canadian/NATO soldiers you lose your right to fly on airplanes.

Um, he did sue the government and was financially compensated. He is also being sued for a hell of a lot more in the US by the wife who's soldier husband he didn't kill in a fire fight, according to another uS soldier who was there.

Try and keep up eh.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Granny on March 13, 2020, 05:35:25 pm
There's no doubt the Harper government violated his human rights.  He should have sued the government and he should have been financially compensated.  But he's still a terrorist and shouldn't be flying on airplanes.

He's on video making and planting EID's in Afghanistan to kill NATO soldiers.  This video was found when he was captured.  If you fight to murder Canadian/NATO soldiers you lose your right to fly on airplanes.

He was a child under control of his father, who was a terrorist fundraiser.
Omar did not do well when forced into 'terrorist' school, "Just always cried" his mother said.
The other man alive with him was his father's friend who was supervising Omar. That man was armed and capable of throwing the grenade, and was executed by US soldiers, who then found Omar and also shot him twice in the back (with his hands up in surrender), until they heard him say he was Canadian.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 05:59:37 pm
He was a child under control of his father, who was a terrorist fundraiser.
Omar did not do well when forced into 'terrorist' school, "Just always cried" his mother said.

Smiling and laughing in the video while planting IEDs.  Did you watch the video?

His mother is a piece of crap, not exactly a reliable source of information.

Quote
The other man alive with him was his father's friend who was supervising Omar. That man was armed and capable of throwing the grenade, and was executed by US soldiers, who then found Omar and also shot him twice in the back (with his hands up in surrender), until they heard him say he was Canadian.

So he goes to war against Canada, but cries "i'm a canadian!" when it helps him.  He's a Canadian by convenience.

He served his time.  He was 15 when he was caught, not an adult, so if he's free from jail so be it.  But i wouldn't let him on a plane.  He should be very grateful to be alive and not in prison the rest of his life.  His Afghan and Taliban brothers would not have been so kind.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 06:23:37 pm
As far as I know Omar's mom is still living in a Canada.  She and the father enrolled her sons in an al-Qaeda training camp.   Omar's brothers were/are terrorists, many trained by al Qaeda.  These people are terrorist scum.

Omar's siblings:

Abdullah Khadr:

He was arrested in Toronto in December 2005 at the request of U.S. authorities on charges of conspiracy to kill Americans and accused of buying arms and ammunition for al-Qaida militants in Afghanistan.

Abdurahman Khadr:

He was arrested in Afghanistan as a suspected al-Qaida member in November 2001. Abdurahman admitted on TV he was “raised to become a suicide bomber.” He returned to Canada in October 2003. He lives in Toronto.

Omar's sister Zaynab Khadr:

Ottawa-born Zaynab, 37, is the eldest child.  It’s alleged bin Laden attended her first wedding in 1999. She returned to live in Canada in February 2005 and was the subject of RCMP investigations for allegedly aiding al-Qaida. She has married four times. Her third ex-husband, Canadian Joshua Boyle, kidnapped near Kabul in 2012, remains hostage with his American wife.  In 2004 she publicly defended the 9/11 attacks.  Boyle was allowed to have a photo-op with Trudeau a few years ago. 

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-quick-sketch-of-omar-khadrs-family
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 08:47:04 pm
As far as I know Omar's mom is still living in a Canada.  She and the father enrolled her sons in an al-Qaeda training camp.   Omar's brothers were/are terrorists, many trained by al Qaeda.  These people are terrorist scum.

Omar's siblings:

Abdullah Khadr:

He was arrested in Toronto in December 2005 at the request of U.S. authorities on charges of conspiracy to kill Americans and accused of buying arms and ammunition for al-Qaida militants in Afghanistan.

Abdurahman Khadr:

He was arrested in Afghanistan as a suspected al-Qaida member in November 2001. Abdurahman admitted on TV he was “raised to become a suicide bomber.” He returned to Canada in October 2003. He lives in Toronto.

Omar's sister Zaynab Khadr:

Ottawa-born Zaynab, 37, is the eldest child.  It’s alleged bin Laden attended her first wedding in 1999. She returned to live in Canada in February 2005 and was the subject of RCMP investigations for allegedly aiding al-Qaida. She has married four times. Her third ex-husband, Canadian Joshua Boyle, kidnapped near Kabul in 2012, remains hostage with his American wife.  In 2004 she publicly defended the 9/11 attacks.  Boyle was allowed to have a photo-op with Trudeau a few years ago. 

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/a-quick-sketch-of-omar-khadrs-family

OK, I'm gonna throw you in a shithole like Gitmo based on a phony court deciding the case on questionable evidence when you're 15 years old. * years later I offer you an chance to leave there if you will simply admit guilt regardless and offer you a jail cell at least that has A/C. I think you'd jump at it. And the article you flog provides no actual evidence to support your claims.
Try, try again.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 08:51:20 pm
OK, I'm gonna throw you in a shithole like Gitmo based on a phony court deciding the case on questionable evidence when you're 15 years old. * years later I offer you an chance to leave there if you will simply admit guilt regardless and offer you a jail cell at least that has A/C. I think you'd jump at it. And the article you flog provides no actual evidence to support your claims.
Try, try again.

I never claimed he threw the grenade, and i have always criticized Harper for keeping him a torture camp (gitmo).  That doesn't mean Khadr isn't a terrorist from a family filled with terrorists.  He shouldnt be flying on planes.  What's the point of a no-fly list?
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 10:43:48 pm
I never claimed he threw the grenade, and i have always criticized Harper for keeping him a torture camp (gitmo).  That doesn't mean Khadr isn't a terrorist from a family filled with terrorists.  He should be flying on planes.  What's the point of a no-fly list?

Harper didn't have any control over Gitmo I remind you. Harper didn't, nor has any Canadian PM controlled the US military. Harper let him come back to Canada but contiued to keep him imprisoned. Please try to keep up.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: Granny on March 14, 2020, 12:01:20 am
Harper didn't have any control over Gitmo I remind you. Harper didn't, nor has any Canadian PM controlled the US military. Harper let him come back to Canada but contiued to keep him imprisoned. Please try to keep up.

All other countries took the minors back, except Khadr from Canada. The US would have been happy to have Harper take him off their hands.
Title: Re: Omar Khadr Settlement Rumour
Post by: waldo on March 15, 2020, 12:12:40 pm
waldo query: is there a social distancing quotient that reflects upon a member resurrecting a buried thread?