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Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: MH on June 21, 2017, 06:13:44 am


Title: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 21, 2017, 06:13:44 am
How better to join the two together than a national holiday ?

http://www.metronews.ca/views/2017/06/20/national-aboriginal-day-should-be-a-stat-holiday.html?cq_ck=1497998942880

I think this could be a better kind of remembrance day...
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: SirJohn on June 29, 2017, 12:05:47 pm
How better to join the two together than a national holiday ?

http://www.metronews.ca/views/2017/06/20/national-aboriginal-day-should-be-a-stat-holiday.html?cq_ck=1497998942880

I think this could be a better kind of remembrance day...

We're not guilted out enough all through the year, we need a special day to wring our hands in anguish over the crimes of our forefathers?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 29, 2017, 01:11:18 pm
We're not guilted out enough all through the year, we need a special day to wring our hands in anguish over the crimes of our forefathers?

You can spend your day how you want.  I would go to a pow-wow and get to know some people.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: guest4 on June 29, 2017, 10:28:14 pm
You can spend your day how you want.  I would go to a pow-wow and get to know some people.

That does sound like a nice way to spend a day.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: kimmy on June 29, 2017, 10:45:03 pm
At one of our projects we had a large aboriginal driver from BFI Waste Management who came by several times a week.  One day, by way of making conversation, I said "hey, George, what does BFI stand for?"

He looks at me, points both of his thumbs at his chest, and says "Big **** Indian."  And then he grins broadly, and I couldn't help laughing.


...



...


Well, it was funny at the time.

 -k
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: JMT on June 30, 2017, 10:23:21 am
This is a sad display:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3565073/indigenous-press-conference-white-lady-demand-leave/
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: SirJohn on June 30, 2017, 11:37:30 am
This is a sad display:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3565073/indigenous-press-conference-white-lady-demand-leave/

I'm frankly sick of the attitude of native activists that they're the only legitimate people here, and that nobody else has any rights. Calling people whose families have been here for centuries 'settlers' and 'colonists' is patently offensive and borderline racist. And coming from people who owe everything they have to those 'settlers' and 'colonists' it's even more idiotic.

Every country on earth was settled by waves of colonization, often violent colonization. The UK is an example of that, where one group after another, from the Norse to the Celts, the Normans and the Germans all invaded, fought, and settled together, eventually blending together. Canada is no different, and while our ancestors were certainly politically incorrect by our present day standards, so were everyone else's ancestors. It was a harsh, cruel world back then. Even 150 years ago, at the founding of Canada, the average lifespan for Canadians was only 41.7. Which was actually higher than some European countries. Hard to be sensitive to other people's problems when you are working like a dog to take care of your own.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2017, 12:14:21 pm
More off-topic horseshit.

A national holiday seems like a nice idea, which should be discussed in its own merits.

Instead we get the same old negative dullard-feed.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: SirJohn on June 30, 2017, 12:37:14 pm
More off-topic horseshit.

A national holiday seems like a nice idea, which should be discussed in its own merits.

Instead we get the same old negative dullard-feed.

Sounds like someone is irked that not everyone shares his attitudes towards natives. Isn't it awful that people can express opinions you disagree with! There oughto be a rule!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2017, 01:19:15 pm
I didn't disagree with anything you said.

I disagree with the simple-minded nature of the discussion, which anyone with an iota of perception would have picked up on.

I like disagreeing and discussing with people, obviously, or I wouldn't be here.  If I want to discuss the same thing 10,000 times over, there's another forum where I can go.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: SirJohn on June 30, 2017, 03:48:24 pm
I didn't disagree with anything you said.

I disagree with the simple-minded nature of the discussion, which anyone with an iota of perception would have picked up on.

I like disagreeing and discussing with people, obviously, or I wouldn't be here.  If I want to discuss the same thing 10,000 times over, there's another forum where I can go.

So you don't want to talk about aborigines so you started a topic to talk about aborigines...
Were aborigines discussed 10,000 times over in another forum?

If you start a topic on making an aboriginal day a national holiday you should be prepared for the idea that not everyone thinks that's a good idea, and for them to express their opinion as to why. This is the nature of discussion. You seem to prefer an echo chamber where everyone agrees with everyone. Is your real name Donald, per chance?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2017, 04:26:17 pm
So you don't want to talk about aborigines so you started a topic to talk about aborigines...

I started a topic about an idea for a holiday and didn't want to toss **** around in the same old fashion.  Feel free to start a shitty thread on that topic and I will avoid it handily.

Quote
Were aborigines discussed 10,000 times over in another forum?

Going by a google search, I estimate 14,090 times.

Quote
If you start a topic on making an aboriginal day a national holiday you should be prepared for the idea that not everyone thinks that's a good idea,

Yes, I would like to hear why it's not a good idea.

 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on June 30, 2017, 04:32:52 pm
I'm frankly sick of the attitude of native activists that they're the only legitimate people here, and that nobody else has any rights. Calling people whose families have been here for centuries 'settlers' and 'colonists' is patently offensive and borderline racist. And coming from people who owe everything they have to those 'settlers' and 'colonists' it's even more idiotic.

Every country on earth was settled by waves of colonization, often violent colonization. The UK is an example of that, where one group after another, from the Norse to the Celts, the Normans and the Germans all invaded, fought, and settled together, eventually blending together. Canada is no different, and while our ancestors were certainly politically incorrect by our present day standards, so were everyone else's ancestors. It was a harsh, cruel world back then. Even 150 years ago, at the founding of Canada, the average lifespan for Canadians was only 41.7. Which was actually higher than some European countries. Hard to be sensitive to other people's problems when you are working like a dog to take care of your own.

Name one place in the world where their culture was disrupted and their lands were taken and I'll show you a place with cultural strife and resentment.  This type of anger stays for centuries in the psyche of the conquered. 

I'm not sure why the FN would be any different.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: SirJohn on June 30, 2017, 04:51:31 pm
Name one place in the world where their culture was disrupted and their lands were taken and I'll show you a place with cultural strife and resentment.  This type of anger stays for centuries in the psyche of the conquered. 

I'm not sure why the FN would be any different.

Name me one place in the world where their culture WASN'T disrupted and their lands taken. The entire history of the human species is one of constant migrations - often through violence. Every village, tribe, city-state, nation, empire or people expanded up until it met its neighbors, then fought to decide who survived and where the border was. I'm unaware of any case in history where they simply lived side by side forever without such fighting to decide who owned what. That includes the north American natives, and, for that matter, all the other natives in America.

England received successive waves of migrants, many violent. Its people are an amalgam of Celts, Swedes, Germans, Normans, and Romans, among others.
For that matter, one of the issues with settling tribal lands is that the natives fought each other, and multiple tribes claim the same land depending on who won when.

Let's deal with their culture. The average lifespan of the hunter/gatherer nomads and agrarian farmers here was 35. They had no science to speak of, and had made no progress towards further advanced civilization in a thousand years. In all likelihood, had we not arrived they'd still be at pretty much the same level of desperate hand-to-mouth existence in short, violent lives because there were no trainable animals in the Americas to ease their labour or make travel easier (ie horses, oxen). They didn't have time for culture since it was everything they could do to get food. So let's not pretend that had the 'colonists' not showed up life here would be the garden of eden. It was nothing like that for natives.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 01, 2017, 09:43:00 am
I think a national holiday would be great. Make the August long weekend "First Peoples Day" or something like that, in place of "Civic Holiday" or whatever it's currently called.

But I don't think it will change anything.  It would probably be perceived as lip-service, or a token (and that perception would be accurate, I think.)

 -k
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on July 01, 2017, 11:02:55 am
I see it as a bridge to better dialogue, ie. Progress
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 01, 2017, 01:20:05 pm
I'm all for it, as I say... I just don't see it being anything more than symbolic, and I don't think symbolic gestures are going to do much to end the divide.  I have no idea what the answers might be, though.

I spent a great day at the desert cultural center at the Osoyoos Indian Band reserve.  It really opened my eyes to the potential of what could be achieved with the right leadership.  Of course the cynical view is that the Osoyoos band has it made because their reserve is located on a piece of paradise. That might have helped, but I think it's dismissive of the tremendous work that has been done there in building a proud and successful community.

 -k
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Hal 9000 on July 14, 2017, 01:06:40 am
I'm all for it, as I say... I just don't see it being anything more than symbolic, and I don't think symbolic gestures are going to do much to end the divide.  I have no idea what the answers might be, though.

I spent a great day at the desert cultural center at the Osoyoos Indian Band reserve.  It really opened my eyes to the potential of what could be achieved with the right leadership.  Of course the cynical view is that the Osoyoos band has it made because their reserve is located on a piece of paradise. That might have helped, but I think it's dismissive of the tremendous work that has been done there in building a proud and successful community.

 -k

I read a recent article about that reserve, yes they have a great location, but I think it has more to do with the Chief.  He seems to have his **** together, uses whatever money to it's best potential, get's proper help rather than his brother-in-law and has high expectations of the people around him...among other things.  You can say that he has prime location, but compare his reserve to what the FN's have done to squander the opertunities at Attawapaskat. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Goddess on July 14, 2017, 11:33:38 am
I kind of like that Accountability Now gal over on the other site.... :)

She seems to have a balanced view of things and echoes the thoughts of other aboriginals/metis I've talked with.  She doesn't excuse or whitewash the issues.

My best friend of 17 years is Metis and has struggled with her upbringing for many years, most of the time successfully.  She has never taken advantage of what's offered to aboriginal people, and that's her choice to do it on her own.

And I met and became freinds with an aborignal lady while I was in college.  She grew up on a reserve and swore she would never raise her children on one.  As soon as she graduated high school, she moved into the city and went to heavy hauler driving school, taking advantage of free schooling.  She worked on site for 10 years before wanting to change careers and that's how I met her - she was again taking advantage of free schooling for aboriginals.  I think she's a great example of using what's available to her to better her life and I applaud ones like her who do so.

That being said, I think we need to start weaning them off public assistance.  It's not been an advantage to most and Canada can no longer afford it.  I think everything needs to be "grandfathered" out until natives and non-natives are all equal Canadians, contributing equally.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 20, 2017, 10:37:28 pm
Some aboriginal national holiday is fine and all, yes awareness should be raised, but it's really yet another symbolic gesture that doesn't feed mouths or give people jobs etc.

Trudeau has asked the Pope for an apology, renamed some building in Ottawa that was named for some residential schools person, spoke with some protestors in a tipi, remains committed to an inquiry on missing/murdered aboriginal women etc etc.  Most of these things don't do much of anything for aboriginals and most cost very little or nothing.  Stop studying things and renaming things and apologizing and start doing something.

The sad reality is that aboriginals are trying to hold on to a pre-modern way of life that was brutally harsh and has been overly romanticized.  War, ****, murder, disease, famine, infant mortality etc were common in "the good ol' days".  If you want to isolate yourselves to live a subsistance way of life in the middle of nowhere, near little modern industry/commerce, with poor schooling, mediocre medical care etc. then accept your fate: your life is going to suck compared to the average Canadian who reaps all the benefits of living in modern industrial/capitalist society. A trillion dollars & a million acres of land isn't going to make up for that lack.   Sure there's still lots of intergenerational trauma and it's very hard to lose your culture but for the sake of my children i'd get them the hell out of those 3rd-world hell holes.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: kimmy on July 25, 2017, 10:48:45 pm
To our First Nations friends, I wish a hearty Siha-Siha Muckachuck on this, the traditional Eve of the Frisky Raccoon.

 -k
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 05, 2018, 10:00:46 am
Updates on Trudeau and the first nations file:

MMIWG inquiry gets 6 more months:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/inquiry-extension-ottawa-1.4691903

And...

The Yellowhead Institute (never heard of them before) assesses Trudeau on his government's progress:

https://yellowheadinstitute.org/rightsframework/

Quote
Our report finds that the Rights Framework expresses a clear and coherent set of goals, which revolve around domesticating Indigenous self-determination within Canadian Confederation. These goals have been ordered into legislation and policy in a manner that guides First Nations towards a narrow model of “self-government” outside of the Indian Act.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2018, 03:24:44 pm
How better to join the two together than a national holiday ?

http://www.metronews.ca/views/2017/06/20/national-aboriginal-day-should-be-a-stat-holiday.html?cq_ck=1497998942880

I think this could be a better kind of remembrance day...

What do you mean by "better kind"?  Like wtf.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2018, 03:31:47 pm
I'd be good with a national holiday.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 10, 2018, 07:54:18 pm
What do you mean by "better kind"?  Like wtf.

I don't remember what I meant by that.  Likely I was being flippant to make myself look like a caricature.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2018, 10:23:32 am
I read a recent article about that reserve, yes they have a great location, but I think it has more to do with the Chief.  He seems to have his **** together, uses whatever money to it's best potential, get's proper help rather than his brother-in-law and has high expectations of the people around him...among other things.  You can say that he has prime location, but compare his reserve to what the FN's have done to squander the opertunities at Attawapaskat.

It is both. Chief Louie is a no BS business man. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/indian-time-doesnt-cut-it-for-innovative-chief-with-on-the-edge-humour/article1103739/ One of my father's careers was an immigration officer and we lived in Osoyoos for around five years when I was a young kid in the fifties and he was working at the border. The native lands on the east side of the lake were nothing but sage brush and cactus back then. We missed this year but every June we have been spending a couple of weeks at the Nk'Mip campsite just below the cultural centre, enjoying the lake and stocking up on the region's wine. Everything is well run and clean. The band is the biggest employer in the area and hires people of all races. The first time we checked in and were greeted by a Brit was a bit of a surprise. She has now been there for several years.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2018, 11:52:12 am
It seems some FN aren't interested and are satisfied with the status quo.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-first-nation-narrowly-rejects-self-government-land-and-resource-treaty-1.3988292
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: chilipeppers on June 26, 2018, 12:02:24 pm
I thought this part was interesting , why would they reject that as it sounds good to me to be away from the Indian Act.

In a separate vote, Lheidli T'enneh members also narrowly rejected a proposed constitution, which would have removed the First Nation from the Indian Act and established self-government.

Band Chief Dominic Frederick says the result of both votes is disappointing, but he intends to honour the wishes of the people.

There's a huge settlement here (Ontario) but its confidential, surely we have a right to know the costs etc.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/06/19/ontario-first-nations-set-to-vote-on-11-billion-treaty-deal.html

I also wonder about the deal in Ontario with the Algonquins which is even bigger and if there is any over lap, probably not as it's further north. 

https://foca.on.ca/algonquin-land-claim-overview/
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2018, 02:22:15 pm
I thought this part was interesting , why would they reject that as it sounds good to me to be away from the Indian Act.

In a separate vote, Lheidli T'enneh members also narrowly rejected a proposed constitution, which would have removed the First Nation from the Indian Act and established self-government.

Band Chief Dominic Frederick says the result of both votes is disappointing, but he intends to honour the wishes of the people.

I don’t know. Afraid to be out on their own after 150 years of being under the act and it’s protections? Better the devil you know? Think they can get a better deal? If so, doesn’t sound like this chief is interested spending his time doing it.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 26, 2018, 02:39:57 pm
Clearly they think they can get a better deal. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2018, 02:59:53 pm
Clearly they think they can get a better deal.

Who is going to negotiate it and will the province be willing? They are back to square one, or maybe even worse.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 26, 2018, 03:26:06 pm
Who is going to negotiate it and will the province be willing? They are back to square one, or maybe even worse.

Not at all....   governments are desperate to get treaties with indigenous people in this province....   the voters may have thought that they should be holding out for more.   I think in the end, they’re probably correct.   Governments aren’t going to come back with a crappier offer....   
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: TimG on June 26, 2018, 03:37:19 pm
Not at all....   governments are desperate to get treaties with indigenous people in this province....   the voters may have thought that they should be holding out for more.   I think in the end, they’re probably correct.   Governments aren’t going to come back with a crappier offer....
Depends. If Canadians get so fed up by incessant demands that they support politicians that push through constitutional changes that limit the liability of current Canadians for past wrongs. You can argue such an event is implausible but 4 years ago most people would have said the same about Trump getting elected and ripping up the post war consensus on trade.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2018, 03:39:59 pm
Not at all....   governments are desperate to get treaties with indigenous people in this province....   the voters may have thought that they should be holding out for more.   I think in the end, they’re probably correct.   Governments aren’t going to come back with a crappier offer....

They may not come back with any offer. They made a deal with the band and the members turned it down. Ball is in the band’s court now. The Chief said it is done as far as he is concerned.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: kimmy on June 26, 2018, 11:14:53 pm
We missed this year but every June we have been spending a couple of weeks at the Nk'Mip campsite just below the cultural centre, enjoying the lake and stocking up on the region's wine. Everything is well run and clean. The band is the biggest employer in the area and hires people of all races. The first time we checked in and were greeted by a Brit was a bit of a surprise. She has now been there for several years.

 For me the most striking thing about my trip there was meeting the native teenagers who were the hosts and dancers and guides at the Desert Cultural Center.  They radiated a tangible sense of pride and purpose.  Teenagers of all races and backgrounds would be lucky to be as poised and confident. You hear about troubled native youth... the young people working at the cultural center are the exact opposite.  Whatever they're doing at Osoyoos, they must be doing it right.

 -k
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 27, 2018, 06:40:07 am
The thing that people don't realize is that in-person encounters are a salve to misunderstanding others.

Mass/national/global media doesn't solve this.  Our camp at BurningMan was like a UN of midWest Republicans, Israeli ultra-liberals, Canadian mushy middle millenials...

The idea of actually DESIGNING communities for cohesion is alien to our idiot government overlords.  Religion and family "took care" of that community aspect in the past but we need to take it upon ourselves now.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2018, 01:39:08 pm
For me the most striking thing about my trip there was meeting the native teenagers who were the hosts and dancers and guides at the Desert Cultural Center.  They radiated a tangible sense of pride and purpose.  Teenagers of all races and backgrounds would be lucky to be as poised and confident. You hear about troubled native youth... the young people working at the cultural center are the exact opposite.  Whatever they're doing at Osoyoos, they must be doing it right.

 -k

They have something to be proud of. The Cultural Centre, hotel, winery, restaurants, golf course and campground are all really good. The also have another golf course north of Oliver and have leased land to Area 27, a group which built a race track designed by Jacques Villeneuve for rich boys to play with their supercars, instead of killing people on lower mainland roads.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on May 28, 2021, 06:14:49 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tk-eml%C3%BAps-te-secw%C3%A9pemc-215-children-former-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778

215 children.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on May 28, 2021, 06:46:23 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tk-eml%C3%BAps-te-secw%C3%A9pemc-215-children-former-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778

215 children.
Un **** believable. How could this kind of thing go on.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on May 28, 2021, 06:47:49 pm
I think the place was still open in the late 1970s
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 28, 2021, 10:24:08 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tk-eml%C3%BAps-te-secw%C3%A9pemc-215-children-former-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778

215 children.

4,100 children total estimated at all residential schools.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on May 29, 2021, 01:11:16 am
I think the place was still open in the late 1970s

Quote
The Kamloops Indian Residential School was in operation from 1890 to 1969, when the federal government took over administration from the Catholic Church to operate it as a residence for a day school, until closing in 1978.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on May 29, 2021, 02:07:30 am
the Catholic Church operated ~70% of the 130 residential schools that operated in Canada between the 1880s and 1996... the ~30% remainder were operated by the United Church, the Presbyterian Church and the Anglican Church.

on behalf of Canada, {former} PM Harper issued an official apology to residential school survivors in 2008... the United Church did so in 1998, the Presbyterian Church in 1994 and the Anglican Church in 1993. The Catholic Church has not issued an apology despite it being a 'call to action point' of the findings from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In the letter refusing an apology for residential schools, Bishop Lionel Gendron, president of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, said while Pope Francis took the matter seriously, he had still decided not to apologize - stating further that he {the Pope} felt that he could not personally respond.

=>2007 settlement:
Quote
The court-approved compensation scheme arose out of a comprehensive class-action settlement in 2007 involving survivors, the federal government and churches that ran the schools. The Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement included a Common Experience Payment for all students who attended the schools, a five-year endowment for the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and the Independent Assessment Process (IAP) to adjudicate claims from students who had suffered abuse at the schools.

Under the IAP, claimants were entitled to up to $275,000 each, based on the nature and level of abuse suffered.

In all 38,276 claims were received, with Saskatchewan having the most claimants. Adjudicators awarded $2.14 billion in compensation to 23,431 claimants while another 4,415 claimants received compensation directly from the federal government.

Overall, the government paid out $3.23 billion in compensation and other costs. The process itself cost another $411 million.

=> Nov 2017 apology/settlement to residential school survivors in Newfoundland & Labrador (per Macleans):
Quote
Stephen Harper’s 2008 apology to residential school survivors was considered a historic, if largely symbolic, step towards reconciliation with Canada’s First Peoples. In making the gesture, however, Harper failed to acknowledge the Innu, Inuit and NunatuKavut people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Why? Because residential schools in the province were set up before Newfoundland and Labrador joined Confederation. The five residential schools that operated in the province—the last closing in 1980—weren’t federally run, and so the Harper government evidently felt no need to recognize the thousands of survivors who attended them, nor their families or communities.

The decision was seen as a particularly glaring flaw of the apology—one that translated as a distinct lack of sincerity and empathy for Canada’s Indigenous people. A class-action lawsuit ensued and, last year, the Liberal government agreed to distribute $50 million to Indigenous survivors who were left out of the original apology and settlement.

On Friday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau moved further to make up for the previous government’s omission with a tearful apology delivered to hundreds of former students and their families in Goose Bay. “Saying that we are sorry today is not enough. It will not undo the harm that was done to you. It will not bring back the languages and traditions you lost. It will not take away the isolation and vulnerability you felt when you separated from your families, communities and cultures,” the Prime Minister said. “We share this burden with you by fully accepting our responsibilities—and our failings—as a government and as a country.”
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on May 29, 2021, 04:50:21 am


It continued in another capacity I think...
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on May 30, 2021, 11:21:40 pm
I think the place was still open in the late 1970s

Quote
The Kamloops Indian Residential School was in operation from 1890 to 1969, when the federal government took over administration from the Catholic Church to operate it as a residence for a day school, until closing in 1978.

It continued in another capacity I think...

yes... and that 'other capacity' is mentioned in the post you're replying to - if you had actually included the original quote!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2021, 12:24:33 am
so yes, none of this is 'new' knowledge in terms of the existence of unmarked/undocumented {mass} graves in proximity to residential schools. Of course what is of compelling... of mind-numbing recognition is the scope - the actual number of children that died/were buried at the Kamloops residential school over its ~80 year operation.

to be expected, the 'usual suspects' are quick to attempt to down-play this latest revelation - leaving the waldo to question when down-playing becomes outright denial. Some of the more profiled responses came from Chris Champion, one of the principals of the Dorchester Review (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dorchester_Review). Champion is described as a close confidant to Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, having started his relationship as a staffer to Kenney when he was a federal MP. Considerable controversy is associated with Champion (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-social-studies-curriculum-adviser-calls-inclusion-of-first-nations-perspectives-a-fad-1.5690187) over his past writings and in his role as an adviser/consultant on the development of a new Alberta school curriculum:

Quote
In an article published last year on the proposed new curriculum, Champion calls the inclusion of First Nations perspectives in school lessons a fad.

Champion writes that the KAIROS blanket exercise — an activity used to teach participants about the deleterious effects on Indigenous people when Europeans settled in North America — brainwashes children.

"The scientific tradition is that truth is discovered and authenticated," Champion writes in the spring/summer issue of the Dorchester Review, where he is an editor. "By contrast, the 'truth' of Indigenous elders sometimes contradicts the evidence."

Champion also came under fire last week for publishing, and recently republishing, a Dorchester Review opinion piece that casts doubt on the suffering of residential school survivors.

In the 1990s, Champion also wrote for conservative magazine Alberta Report. He penned an article that suggested victims of school sex abuse scandals and forced sterilization exploited their suffering for financial gain.

many of Champion's recent days tweets has him repeatedly including a link to the following (original sourced CBC) article: Why Did Over 4,000 Children Die At First Nation’s Residential Schools? (https://popularresistance.org/why-did-over-4000-children-die-at-first-nations-residential-schools/) One example of same showing the temerity of Champion in replying to the Minister of Indigenous Services, Marc Miller:

(https://i.imgur.com/FzRpLgj.png)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2021, 03:31:19 pm
4,100 children total estimated at all residential schools.

But you said they had good intentions!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on May 31, 2021, 05:37:42 pm
Churches should be paying their own reparations for the kidnapping, **** and massacre of indigenous children. 

It’s likely too late now, but there should be subpoenas served and everything any church knew about what was going on should be exposed, and if the statute of limitations hasn’t run out, anyone still alive should be prosecuted.

If the organization as a whole was responsible for covering any of it up, that church organization shouldn’t be allowed to operate in Canada. 

The tepid response from government when it comes to the churches is disgusting.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2021, 08:46:32 pm
Churches should be paying their own reparations for the kidnapping, **** and massacre of indigenous children. 

It’s likely too late now, but there should be subpoenas served and everything any church knew about what was going on should be exposed, and if the statute of limitations hasn’t run out, anyone still alive should be prosecuted.

If the organization as a whole was responsible for covering any of it up, that church organization shouldn’t be allowed to operate in Canada. 

The tepid response from government when it comes to the churches is disgusting.

Strip away their tax-exempt status and use the money to pay reparations.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 31, 2021, 09:57:00 pm
But you said they had good intentions!

I'm sure they did.  I didn't say those who ran it did.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on June 01, 2021, 12:36:06 am
I'm sure they did.  I didn't say those who ran it did.


“When the school is on the reserve, the child lives with its parents, who are savages, and though he may learn to read and write, his habits and training mode of thought are Indian. He is simply a savage who can read and write. It has been strongly impressed upon myself, as head of the Department, that Indian children should be withdrawn as much as possible from the parental influence, and the only way to do that would be to put them in central training industrial schools where they will acquire the habits and modes of thought of white men." John A Macdonald - 1879
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2021, 12:55:01 am
oh my! Conservatives said what?

(https://i.imgur.com/CyslsM8.jpg)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 01, 2021, 12:00:35 pm
There were also nine Liberal prime ministers during the residential school era. I guess what they did or didn't say isn't relevant.

This was a national failure waldo, not a political one.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2021, 12:10:17 pm
There were also nine Liberal prime ministers during the residential school era. I guess what they did or didn't say isn't relevant.

This was a national failure waldo, not a political one.

yabut, the waldo just referenced what they (Conservatives), as you say, 'did say' - and you don't get to negate that by proclaiming referencing those comments is "off-base"... even as you get your presumed licks in with your first sentences. Now if you have relevant statements from those, as you say, nine Liberal PMs, have at er, hey!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 01, 2021, 12:36:21 pm
yabut, the waldo just referenced what they (Conservatives), as you say, 'did say' - and you don't get to negate that by proclaiming referencing those comments is "off-base"... even as you get your presumed licks in with your first sentences. Now if you have relevant statements from those, as you say, nine Liberal PMs, have at er, hey!

Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2021, 12:53:37 pm
Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.

in your zeal deflect from those Conservative leaders/MP comments; to 'both-sides' this concern, perhaps a timeline... a starting reference point... is needed. When did the 'issue you say was ignored', become an issue as recognized by both politicians and citizens for the problems/failure that was the residential school system?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 01, 2021, 01:29:51 pm
Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.

Liberals have certainly ignored the problem.

However, it seems the Conservatives have actively attempted to hide the issue.  In 2009 they declined funding so that bodies could be looked for. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7907424/trc-mass-graves-residential-school-federal-funding/amp/
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 01, 2021, 01:39:49 pm
Liberals have certainly ignored the problem.

However, it seems the Conservatives have actively attempted to hide the issue.  In 2009 they declined funding so that bodies could be looked for. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7907424/trc-mass-graves-residential-school-federal-funding/amp/

Neither did the Liberals. The study that found the graves was funded by a provincial grant.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 01, 2021, 01:59:39 pm
These sites need to be treated as murder investigations.

Any churches, and the people working in them, that withheld any relevant documents should be criminally charged.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 01, 2021, 02:59:40 pm
These sites need to be treated as murder investigations.

Any churches, and the people working in them, that withheld any relevant documents should be criminally charged.

Don't know about murder, that would be hard to prove but definitely a homicide investigation.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 01, 2021, 05:13:52 pm
I'm sure they did.  I didn't say those who ran it did.

Sure how could the architects of the residential school system who considered Indigenous people's subhuman and wanted to wipe out their entire culture and language know that the people they got to actually run the schools would take things too far.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2021, 11:09:18 pm
Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.
in your zeal to deflect from those Conservative leaders/MP comments; to 'both-sides' this concern, perhaps a timeline... a starting reference point... is needed. When did the 'issue you say was ignored', become an issue as recognized by both politicians and citizens for the problems/failure that was the residential school system?

still waiting member bothSidenIt wilber - still waiting!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 01, 2021, 11:24:26 pm
Quote
...it seems the Conservatives have actively attempted to hide the issue.  In 2009 they declined funding so that bodies could be looked for.  https://globalnews.ca/news/7907424/trc-mass-graves-residential-school-federal-funding/amp/
Neither did the Liberals. The study that found the graves was funded by a provincial grant.

more 2sidenIt hey member wilber! As a backdrop reference: since 2016 the Liberal government has committed more than $50 million towards TRC 'call to action' points.

what's definitive is Harper Conservatives did refuse that linked reference to a TRC request for $1.5M to find mass graves at residential schools. The waldo would be interested in you citing reference (and context) showing the current Liberal government rebuffed a funding request by the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation to support the process/undertaking that relied upon ground-penetrating radar to discover the Kamloops residential school mass grave - thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 01, 2021, 11:40:08 pm
Sure how could the architects of the residential school system who considered Indigenous people's subhuman and wanted to wipe out their entire culture and language know that the people they got to actually run the schools would take things too far.

I think the architects saw aboriginals and said "these people are very poor and can't read or write and are godless heathens, we need to make them like us so they do better".  Classic white man's burden.  And then the churches said "ok we'll give them God and educate them".  I don't think the architects originally had the intention of beating kids and starving them to death and other forms of horrible neglect/abuse, but people are a-holes, especially back then, and especially when you give them power and zero accountability or oversight.  Not much different than cops who abuse their power and do racist stuff.

I'm not defending it, it was a horrible system and terribly thought out.  I think they wanted to help them (originally), at least in part, but were really stupid and ignorant about everything.  I think there were likely good and bad intentions with it all.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on June 02, 2021, 12:05:26 am
I think they wanted to help them (originally), at least in part, but were really stupid and ignorant about everything.

No, they clearly wanted to ethnically cleanse them by assimilating them.  I quoted JAM directly earlier saying exactly that.

I will concede it was the thing to do back then (they even wanted to assimilate French Canadians at some point) but don't kid yourself, it was NOT about helping anyone but themselves. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 02, 2021, 12:19:28 am
today, under the guise of 'learning from the residential school tragedy', Alberta Premier Jason Kenney came out against so-called cancel culture. Responses seem to fall into the collective groupings; either as insensitive, dismissive, divisive, misinformed, etc., OR as politically astute, bold, accurate, needed to be said, etc..

given some of the immediate and developing backlash, will Kenney double-down or opt for a weasely-like backpedal? Whether one agrees with Kenney's view/statements, with his long scripted response, Kenney was obviously responding to a set-up "softball question" - perhaps the epitome of politicizing the immediate tragedy of the mass grave discovery within the broader residential schools concern!


{per Global News} in response to a reporter's question, Premier Kenney spoke at length about Canadian history, first launching into a spiel about Canada’s first PM John A. Macdonald:

Quote
Kenney noted he co-sponsored a bill in the House of Commons to recognize a day honouring the founding father, “without whom Canada would not exist.” “I think Canada is a great historical achievement. It is a country that people all around the world seek to join as new Canadians.”

It is an imperfect country, but it is still a great country, just as John Macdonald was an imperfect man but was still a great leader. If we want to get into cancelling every figure in our history who took positions on issues at the time, that we now judge harshly and rightly in historical retrospective, but if that’s the new standard, then I think almost the entire founding leadership of our country gets cancelled.

If we go full force into cancel culture, then we’re cancelling most, if not all, of our history.

Instead, I think we should learn from our history. We should learn from our achievements, but also our failures.” He added, noting that Canada “is doing that,” noting former prime minister Stephen Harper’s residential school apology and more than $3 billion in compensation from the feds to survivors.

It’s important to learn from the greatness, the audacity of vision and the generosity of spirit” of former Canadian leaders.” Kenney explained that it’s inappropriate to focus on one or two figures who operated in a “radically different time.

If we want to get into a debate about cancelling Canadian history, we need to understand that it means all of our history.

I think that that kind of destructive spirit is not really the spirit of reconciliation. The spirit of reconciliation is to learn from the wrongs of the past, to seek to remedy them while knowing our history and moving forward together.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 02, 2021, 04:53:07 am
today, under the guise of 'learning from the residential school tragedy', Alberta Premier Jason Kenney came out against so-called cancel culture. Responses seem to fall into the collective groupings; either as insensitive, dismissive, divisive, misinformed, etc., OR as politically astute, bold, accurate, needed to be said, etc..

given some of the immediate and developing backlash, will Kenney double-down or opt for a weasely-like backpedal? Whether one agrees with Kenney's view/statements, with his long scripted response, Kenney was obviously responding to a set-up "softball question" - perhaps the epitome of politicizing the immediate tragedy of the mass grave discovery within the broader residential schools concern!

Isn't taking the statues down an acknowledgement of history?  Isn't it the result of collective discussion and an agreement not to commemorate that part of our past that still burdens us?

I would call this terrible timing and inappropriate, but I am not the target of such things.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 09:28:39 am
Isn't taking the statues down an acknowledgement of history?  Isn't it the result of collective discussion and an agreement not to commemorate that part of our past that still burdens us?

I would call this terrible timing and inappropriate, but I am not the target of such things.

So what parts do you commentate? John A may have originated the schools but he also did more to build this country than any other PM.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 02, 2021, 09:39:14 am
So what parts do you commentate? John A may have originated the schools but he also did more to build this country than any other PM.

Commemoration and celebration is a feature of popular sentiment.  The statues will come back at some point, I think.

Otherwise, we can never celebrate anyone.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 09:49:39 am
I think the architects saw aboriginals and said "these people are very poor and can't read or write and are godless heathens, we need to make them like us so they do better".  Classic white man's burden.  And then the churches said "ok we'll give them God and educate them".  I don't think the architects originally had the intention of beating kids and starving them to death and other forms of horrible neglect/abuse, but people are a-holes, especially back then, and especially when you give them power and zero accountability or oversight.  Not much different than cops who abuse their power and do racist stuff.

I'm not defending it, it was a horrible system and terribly thought out.  I think they wanted to help them (originally), at least in part, but were really stupid and ignorant about everything.  I think there were likely good and bad intentions with it all.

Every monster in history can be said to have had good intentions if you parse them finely enough. That's not an excuse.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 09:51:36 am
Commemoration and celebration is a feature of popular sentiment.  The statues will come back at some point, I think.

Otherwise, we can never celebrate anyone.

Would that be so bad?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 02, 2021, 09:54:50 am
Would that be so bad?

I don't know.  What do you think ?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 09:57:16 am
I don't know.  What do you think ?

I think the issue is less about celebrating people and who gets celebrated and who decides.

Even if one were to concede the point that people like Kenney make that people like JAM are part of our history, it's still a specific version of history that's being commemorated and that's a problem to me.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 02, 2021, 10:51:57 am
Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.
in your zeal to deflect from those Conservative leaders/MP comments; to 'both-sides' this concern, perhaps a timeline... a starting reference point... is needed. When did the 'issue you say was ignored', become an issue as recognized by both politicians and citizens for the problems/failure that was the residential school system?

with the underlying reference that member wilber chooses to ignore the aforementioned posted request:

Liberal Prime Ministers: Pearson & Trudeau governing from 1963-1979

(https://i.imgur.com/rTAP65A.jpg)

from the TRC final report itself:

Quote
The road to closure, 1969

In 1968, the federal government drastically restructured the residential school system by dividing the schools into residences and day schools, each with a principal or administrator. In June of the following year, the federal government took direct control over all the schools in southern Canada. Because churches were allowed to continue to appoint the residence administrators, their presence continued in many schools in the coming years. They were, however, no longer directly responsible for the facilities.
.
Having assumed control over the southern Canadian schools in 1969, the federal government commenced what would prove to be a protracted process of closing the system down. According to the Indian Affairs annual report for 1968–69, the department was responsible for sixty residences. Two years later, the number was down to forty-five.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 02, 2021, 11:04:31 am
I would’ve preferred a plaque go up, or another monument giving some context.  Or, just take it down.  I don’t really care.

These people are in history books, they’re in museums….   Why do they really need to be on the street corner anyways? 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 11:15:08 am
I would’ve preferred a plaque go up, or another monument giving some context.  Or, just take it down.  I don’t really care.

These people are in history books, they’re in museums….   Why do they really need to be on the street corner anyways?

There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 02, 2021, 11:19:38 am
There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

Don’t know…. Maybe. 

Quote
How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.

The ‘average person’ who doesn’t read or go to museums shouldn’t be encouraged to get their history from statues on street corners.  Their view is going to be rather incomplete, to say the least.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 11:21:54 am
There are over 20 statues and monuments on Parliament Hill. Should they all come down?

Depends on the statue.

Quote
How often do you think the average person goes to a museum or reads a history book? Seeing a statue or monument might actually prompt them to learn more about someone.

Would you accept a compromise that kept the statues but added the words "this person was also a huge racist" to the didactic panel?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 11:43:14 am
Depends on the statue.



So you confirm my statement about judging previous generations by your standards. History will do the same to you.

Quote
Would you accept a compromise that kept the statues but added the words "this person was also a huge racist" to the didactic panel?

No I would not. I would be in favour of a plaque that laid out the persons accomplishments both the good and the ugly. People can decide for themselves. You just want to use statues as a different kind of propaganda.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 11:55:15 am
So you confirm my statement about judging previous generations by your standards. History will do the same to you.

Guess I better not be a genocidal piece of **** then!

Quote
No I would not. I would be in favour of a plaque that laid out the persons accomplishments both the good and the ugly. People can decide for themselves. You just want to use statues as a different kind of propaganda.

Statues by nature are propaganda tools, pick your poison.

If people want an even assessment of a historical figure's accomplishments and legacy they aren't going to get it reading a 100 word plaque.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 11:58:54 am
Guess I better not be a genocidal piece of **** then!

Statues by nature are propaganda tools, pick your poison.

If people want an even assessment of a historical figure's accomplishments and legacy they aren't going to get it reading a 100 word plaque.

There doesn't have to be a 100 word plaque, just a list.
You are just interested in your own biases, not any kind of balance.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 12:32:19 pm
There doesn't have to be a 100 word plaque, just a list.
You are just interested in your own biases, not any kind of balance.

LOL "balance". The notion that these hagiographic graven images in prominent public places can be balanced by just tweaking the verbiage is moronic.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 02, 2021, 04:16:29 pm
No, they clearly wanted to ethnically cleanse them by assimilating them.  I quoted JAM directly earlier saying exactly that.

I will concede it was the thing to do back then (they even wanted to assimilate French Canadians at some point) but don't kid yourself, it was NOT about helping anyone but themselves.

I don't see Macdonald saying he wants to ethnically cleanse them.  That means to remove natives physically from Canada.  His actions were essentially what we now call cultural genocide, for the supposed sake of their education/welfare.  He wanted to remove all Indian culture from the kids because he saw the parents and their native culture and way of life as savage.  This went on in many European colonies throughout the world, the "white man's burden" to "save" the heathen savages, many times led by Christian churches/missionaries.

Clearly many of the schools were run by racists and/or cruel people who didn't care much about their physical welfare either.  Macdonald was very likely a racist himself given his comments.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 02, 2021, 04:22:03 pm
Every monster in history can be said to have had good intentions if you parse them finely enough. That's not an excuse.

Well yes exactly.  Maybe not every monster but many.  There are no excuses for Macdonald's actions and words, it was bad policy.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 02, 2021, 04:28:27 pm
I would’ve preferred a plaque go up, or another monument giving some context.  Or, just take it down.  I don’t really care.

These people are in history books, they’re in museums….   Why do they really need to be on the street corner anyways?

People used to think "Oh wow, Sir John Mac led the founding of the country".  At the time, something to celebrate, and still is.  But now we know it's more like "Sir John Mac led the founding of the country and started the horrible residential school system".  He did both great and terrible things.

I think to some people he's still great, and to others he's nothing but an evil monster, and the truth lies somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 04:29:07 pm
 :D
LOL "balance". The notion that these hagiographic graven images in prominent public places can be balanced by just tweaking the verbiage is moronic.

Balance is not your opinion or mine.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 02, 2021, 04:49:35 pm
I don't see Macdonald saying he wants to ethnically cleanse them.  That means to remove natives physically from Canada.  His actions were essentially what we now call cultural genocide, for the supposed sake of their education/welfare.  He wanted to remove all Indian culture from the kids because he saw the parents and their native culture and way of life as savage.  This went on in many European colonies throughout the world, the "white man's burden" to "save" the heathen savages, many times led by Christian churches/missionaries.

Clearly many of the schools were run by racists and/or cruel people who didn't care much about their physical welfare either.  Macdonald was very likely a racist himself given his comments.

I think it’s worse than that…. You’re white-washing how the country was founded, and stolen, from natives who were seen as subhuman.

It’s not as simple as saying that the founding of Canada was great but he also did bad things.

The founding of Canada was done in a terrible and atrocious manner.  Until Canadians can reconcile that fact, I think good relations with indigenous communities will likely not be possible.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 02, 2021, 05:55:37 pm
I think it’s worse than that…. You’re white-washing how the country was founded, and stolen, from natives who were seen as subhuman.

It’s not as simple as saying that the founding of Canada was great but he also did bad things.

The founding of Canada was done in a terrible and atrocious manner.  Until Canadians can reconcile that fact, I think good relations with indigenous communities will likely not be possible.

Confederation was done primarily as a security pact between a bunch of the colonies at the time to fend off the manifest destiny of the US, who at the time had a massive standing army in the north and nothing do with it following the end of the US civil war a couple of years prior, and only decades prior annexed Texas etc from Mexico via warfare.  The US bought Alaska from Russia in 1867...coincidence?  Macdonald and co. saved much of Canada, including natives, from US invasion.  Yes we should consider that an achievement.

You're also simplifying how Canada was colonized.  Parts of it were stolen, parts of it were treatied away, the vast majority of it never had a native step foot on it because pre-Columbus they traveled by waterway and never had horses to explore inland.  Given the competitive nature of European empires at the time who were scrambling against each other for wealth and land power because they were scared to death due to being constantly at war with each other, colonization of Canada was inevitable in some form or another.  If not by France and Britain, then Russia, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Japan, or China etc.

This isn't any different than many of the different native groups themselves pre-Columbus who formed alliances with each other and were constantly at war with each other, raping and pillaging and stealing each other's land and some (Aztecs, Incas) forming their own empires.

Hundreds of years ago it was a war of all against all for survival.  The powerful took from the weak.  Many, many horrible things happened.

I think to heal everybody needs to acknowledge and accept what happened, bad and good and everything between, give everyone what they need to thrive, be it land or money or infrastructure or rights, or whatever, and move forward together.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2021, 06:28:09 pm
:D
Balance is not your opinion or mine.

You're ducking the point that the statues themselves are the problem, not the information presented on them
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 02, 2021, 07:39:46 pm
You're ducking the point that the statues themselves are the problem, not the information presented on them

So let’s get rid of them all but I’ve already addressed that.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 03, 2021, 05:32:09 am
1. Confederation was done primarily as a security pact between a bunch of the colonies at the time to fend off the manifest destiny of the US, who at the time had a massive standing army in the north and nothing do with it following the end of the US civil war a couple of years prior, and only decades prior annexed Texas etc from Mexico via warfare.  The US bought Alaska from Russia in 1867...coincidence?  Macdonald and co. saved much of Canada, including natives, from US invasion.  Yes we should consider that an achievement.

2.You're also simplifying how Canada was colonized.  Parts of it were stolen, parts of it were treatied away, the vast majority of it never had a native step foot on it because pre-Columbus they traveled by waterway and never had horses to explore inland.  Given the competitive nature of European empires at the time who were scrambling against each other for wealth and land power because they were scared to death due to being constantly at war with each other, colonization of Canada was inevitable in some form or another.  If not by France and Britain, then Russia, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Japan, or China etc.

3.This isn't any different than many of the different native groups themselves pre-Columbus who formed alliances with each other and were constantly at war with each other, raping and pillaging and stealing each other's land and some (Aztecs, Incas) forming their own empires.

4. Hundreds of years ago it was a war of all against all for survival.  The powerful took from the weak.  Many, many horrible things happened.

5. I think to heal everybody needs to acknowledge and accept what happened, bad and good and everything between, give everyone what they need to thrive, be it land or money or infrastructure or rights, or whatever, and move forward together.

1. 2. 3. 4. I pretty much agree with this.  I read a book about the early days of Andrew Jackson.  He was a psycho, but his youth was spent in a land immersed in constant guerilla warfare.  The early history of North America and the wars in the east are not covered much because there is no moral centre, and the details are too complicated and brutal to teach children. 

So we come up with a moral take based on the eventually victory and success of the European conquerers... and that moral take is based on your politics, but inconsistent no matter what your politics.

5. Wow.  What a world it would be if we could speak the truth.  I think your project sounds magnificent, because it offers truth as a condition of true healing.  Kind of like in the same way Communism and capitalism can't co-exist, I can't see how this take could coexist with our current world.

After all, the so-called Land of the Free is banning the teaching of Critical Race Theory right now.  So you want to bundle white guilt, native guilt, and a huge settling of scores unceded land and so on....

In a way it has to happen, but in another way it can't.  Would you start a separate thread on the topic ?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Boges on June 03, 2021, 09:21:55 am
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 09:32:47 am
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.

They are still coming for the same reasons. Should we now be anti immigrant?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 03, 2021, 10:03:05 am
I'm not minimizing the hurt and pain all the atrocities done to FN people by Canadian governments of the past.

But Canada is currently a country of immigrants. People came here for a better life from their own persecution and hardship. They didn't come here to remove the FN Culture from them.

This "Go Home Colonizer" language isn't helpful.

But that's exactly what the government did in their name so that those immigrants would have a place to go. Whether anyone intentionally took part in the displacement and oppression of the Indigenous peoples or not is irrelevant when they still benefited from it and continue to do so to this day.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 03, 2021, 10:20:54 am

And having an open conversation along those lines is a good idea to me. 

Acknowledging that the land was once sparsely attended by first nations, as a bridge to taking steps to reduce the hurt - even symbolically.  And setting up projects to actually fix things.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 11:00:23 am
But that's exactly what the government did in their name so that those immigrants would have a place to go. Whether anyone intentionally took part in the displacement and oppression of the Indigenous peoples or not is irrelevant when they still benefited from it and continue to do so to this day.

While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 03, 2021, 11:06:47 am
While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?
How far into the future does the pain of the innocent radiate?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 03, 2021, 11:14:25 am
While does the guilt stop. 300 years, 500 years, 1000 years? More?

Why are you talking about guilt? No one is talking about guilt. Guilt is an unproductive feeling, it doesn't solve anything and no one is asking settlers to go around in sackcloth and ashes.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 11:59:30 am
Why are you talking about guilt? No one is talking about guilt. Guilt is an unproductive feeling, it doesn't solve anything and no one is asking settlers to go around in sackcloth and ashes.

Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 03, 2021, 12:04:05 pm
Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?

You’re confusing feelings of guilt within an individual and the culpability of Canada (and churches) in the harm to indigenous people.  You don’t need to personally apologize for anything.  Canada certainly does as part of the role in taking responsibility for what has occurred. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 12:20:00 pm
You’re confusing feelings of guilt within an individual and the culpability of Canada (and churches) in the harm to indigenous people.  You don’t need to personally apologize for anything.  Canada certainly does as part of the role in taking responsibility for what has occurred.

We are apologizing all the time. What does an apology from a PM mean if they aren't speaking for you? We can acknowledge bad things happened in the past and try and make them right without taking personal responsibility for them.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 12:54:40 pm
Quote
We could mount pressure groups across this country on many areas where there have been historic wrongs.

Quote
I do not think the purpose of a government is to right the past. It cannot rewrite history. It is our purpose to be just in our time.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 03, 2021, 12:58:31 pm
We are apologizing all the time. What does an apology from a PM mean if they aren't speaking for you? We can acknowledge bad things happened in the past and try and make them right without taking personal responsibility for them.

The PM’s apology is on behalf of Canada.  Please provide and example of how you are being forced to take personal responsibility for these things.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 01:02:17 pm
The PM’s apology is on behalf of Canada.  Please provide and example of how you are being forced to take personal responsibility for these things.

What is Canada if it isn't its citizens?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 03, 2021, 01:08:12 pm
What is Canada if it isn't its citizens?

Seriously…. What a dumb question.  You don’t understand what a country is and the difference between a country apologizing versus individuals apologizing? 

Now you’re just playing stupid word games. 

Maybe answer the question I asked and we can explore the differences. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 03, 2021, 01:30:10 pm
Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?

Quote
We are apologizing all the time. What does an apology from a PM mean if they aren't speaking for you? We can acknowledge bad things happened in the past and try and make them right without taking personal responsibility for them.

So when Harper apologized for residential schools on behalf of the government and all Canadians, you think he was saying he, you, me and everyone else, personally, were responsible for what happened?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 01:44:47 pm
Seriously…. What a dumb question.  You don’t understand what a country is and the difference between a country apologizing versus individuals apologizing? 

Now you’re just playing stupid word games. 

Maybe answer the question I asked and we can explore the differences.

Well who are they apologizing for, 10 million sq km of geography?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 03, 2021, 02:28:52 pm
Well who are they apologizing for, 10 million sq km of geography?

The government ?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 03, 2021, 02:40:35 pm
Wilber heard someone say "I'm sorry for your loss" at his grandma's funeral and called the cops to report a murder.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 02:42:23 pm
The government ?

What is the government?

I think it is appropriate that we recognize unjust things were done in the past and it is our responsibility to try and make amends to the group in general and the victims in particular but I don't see much point in apologies because I don't think they mean a lot unless they come from the actual perpetrators. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 03, 2021, 02:52:20 pm
…I don't see much point in apologies because I don't think they mean a lot unless they come from the actual perpetrators. Just my opinion.

Maybe ask the victims if they think an apology is important…
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 03:02:57 pm
Quote
Maybe ask the victims if they think an apology is important…

As I said it is just my opinion.  If they like them fine, I just don't see much sincerity in them. Actions are what will count in the long run.



Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 03, 2021, 05:13:29 pm
Talk is cheap waldo, it doesn't matter what those Liberals said or did not say. they ignored the issue as well.

Liberal Prime Ministers: Pearson & Trudeau governing from 1963-1979
(https://i.imgur.com/rTAP65A.jpg)
from the TRC final report itself:

Quote
The road to closure, 1969

In 1968, the federal government drastically restructured the residential school system by dividing the schools into residences and day schools, each with a principal or administrator. In June of the following year, the federal government took direct control over all the schools in southern Canada. Because churches were allowed to continue to appoint the residence administrators, their presence continued in many schools in the coming years. They were, however, no longer directly responsible for the facilities.
.
Having assumed control over the southern Canadian schools in 1969, the federal government commenced what would prove to be a protracted process of closing the system down. According to the Indian Affairs annual report for 1968–69, the department was responsible for sixty residences. Two years later, the number was down to forty-five.

Actions are what will count in the long run.

actions member wilber - actions?

according to the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the previous Conservative government of Stephen Harper stymied the search for children who died throughout the over century-long existence of Indian residential schools:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZUUWi4m.png)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 03, 2021, 06:16:05 pm
Yet six years after Harper it finally took 215 bodies to get a federal government to act.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 03, 2021, 08:24:09 pm
Statues and tavern names and apologies and flags at half mast mean virtually nothing, just completely symbolic, doesn't change any material conditions of aboriginals in any way.

My honest opinion most aboriginals are straight effed.  If they stay where they live now they live in the boonies away from industry and jobs, there's little future in many of these places.  But if they move to the cities for jobs they'll just assimilate and lose their cultures.  There's no happy ending.

I've known lots of white small town backwoods riff-raff.  They're uneducated, a lot of them commit petty crimes like shoplifting, most don't have a lot of money, sometimes their teeth are disgusting because they don't go to the dentist, some don't take care of their property at all.  A lot of aboriginals on reserves are small town riff-raff even more isolated than most white riff-raff, plus the trauma of everything on top of that.  We can do a lot more to help them I think but at the end of the day it's spending money on isolated rural folk and most of them will remain fairly poor compared to most Canadians unless they move away and get into cities and bigger industries.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 03, 2021, 09:46:19 pm
Quote
Statues and tavern names and apologies and flags at half mast mean virtually nothing…

Have you asked the victims what it means to them to attend a school named after the person who victimized their relatives?   Or to see a statue of your oppressors? 

Do you think you might have a different opinion if you were indigenous?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Dia on June 03, 2021, 11:29:06 pm
How far into the future does the pain of the innocent radiate?

7 generations, per First Nations culture.  So calculatng from  when the last residential school closed, about 2136.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Dia on June 03, 2021, 11:58:55 pm
Why are you talking about apologies if there is no guilt involved?

I don't understand this concern with apologizing. if I  realize I've wronged someone, I feel guilty until I admit my wrongdoing and apologize.  The apology is part of amending the relationship.   I don't know how one could fix a serious screw up without an apology, actually.

I don't feel personally responsible for what happened to the FN people before my time.  Nonetheless, I want my country - through its leadership - to make amends to them.  It's just the right thing to do, imo. 

As individuals, I guess we each have to decide how much amending we'll do on our own. 
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 04, 2021, 12:25:10 am
Yet six years after Harper it finally took 215 bodies to get a federal government to act.

again, the federal Liberal government has accepted all 94 Calls to Action of the TRC... and, since 2016, committing (and budgeting) more than $50 million while pursuing implementation of the TRC recommendations as a partnership undertaking involving all stakeholders!

(https://i.imgur.com/PTH5Aib.png)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 01:02:20 am
What is Canada if it isn't its citizens?
I'm not Canada and I don't want to be associated with it anymore because I don't like how it reflects on me.

This is my own personal manifesto. I'm rejecting the nationality I was assigned at birth. I've felt like I've been living a lie and not as who and what I am nearly all my life and now I'm a human being from Earth. I'm still very much where I've always been from, Earth. I'm an Earthling, not even 1st Nations can tell me to go somewhere else or back to where I came from.

Ya'll get your stupid nations off my planet.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 01:15:35 am
I want to have Justin's baby!
Fixed your sycophantic horseshit for you. You're welcome.

A diehard partisan toady like yourself is just as much a toady to a system of governance that's amongst the most accountability challenged on the planet.  The simple fact of the matter is that your beloved party and leader couldn't operate in the fashion they've become accustomed to without it.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Dia on June 04, 2021, 02:03:34 am

Ya'll get your stupid nations off my planet.

Thank you.

That'd be something, eh?   
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 04, 2021, 07:44:59 am
I'm not Canada and I don't want to be associated with it anymore because I don't like how it reflects on me.

This is my own personal manifesto. I'm rejecting the nationality I was assigned at birth. I've felt like I've been living a lie and not as who and what I am nearly all my life and now I'm a human being from Earth. I'm still very much where I've always been from, Earth. I'm an Earthling, not even 1st Nations can tell me to go somewhere else or back to where I came from.

Ya'll get your stupid nations off my planet.

Thank you.

Ya, you don’t get to accept the benefits of living in a country like Canada and say you reject your nationality. That’s just a cop out.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 08:29:51 am
Ya, you don’t get to accept the benefits of living in a country like Canada and say you reject your nationality. That’s just a cop out.
Says who, I'm a human and I'm from Earth so where's the cop out?  Canada stole the benefits of the land by rejecting and denying the existence of hundreds of nationalities. If they can be rejected and denied why can't Canada, what makes it so special?

Humans benefit more from having a planet to live on not a country.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 08:31:29 am
That'd be something, eh?
It's what has to happen eventually if we're ever going to grow up as a species.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 04, 2021, 10:06:57 am
again, the federal Liberal government has accepted all 94 Calls to Action of the TRC... and, since 2016, committing (and budgeting) more than $50 million while pursuing implementation of the TRC recommendations as a partnership undertaking involving all stakeholders!

(https://i.imgur.com/PTH5Aib.png)
A diehard partisan toady like yourself is just as much a toady to a system of governance that's amongst the most accountability challenged on the planet. The simple fact of the matter is that your beloved party and leader couldn't operate in the fashion they've become accustomed to without it.

and your diehard anti-establishment shtick is becoming quite boringly old! Apparently, to you, referencing a formal accounting of the federal government's status/progression on the TRC's 94 Calls to Action recommendations is... "accountability challenged"! Go figure, hey!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Cultu
Post by: wilber on June 04, 2021, 10:44:58 am
Says who, I'm a human and I'm from Earth so where's the cop out?  Canada stole the benefits of the land by rejecting and denying the existence of hundreds of nationalities. If they can be rejected and denied why can't Canada, what makes it so special?

Humans benefit more from having a planet to live on not a country.

You have been benefiting from that from the day you were born and still are as you continue to complain. Don’t be such a hypocrite. Move to the Congo and be from Earth there. See how much you like it.

Countries aren’t any more perfect than the humans from Earth who live in them.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 04, 2021, 02:04:06 pm
I'm not Canada and I don't want to be associated with it anymore because I don't like how it reflects on me.

This is my own personal manifesto. I'm rejecting the nationality I was assigned at birth. I've felt like I've been living a lie and not as who and what I am nearly all my life and now I'm a human being from Earth. I'm still very much where I've always been from, Earth. I'm an Earthling, not even 1st Nations can tell me to go somewhere else or back to where I came from.

Ya'll get your stupid nations off my planet.

Thank you.

I think it should be an option for people to disassociate themselves from Canada and stop paying all taxes.  In return you can't call 9-11 or use any doctors, hospitals, vaccines, public roads, schools, or benefit from military or police protection whereby domestic or foreign actors are free to murder you without recourse.  Canada sucks.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 07:40:25 pm
and your diehard anti-establishment shtick is becoming quite boringly old!
It's still in its infancy compared to the olde fashioned systemic secrecy at the core of our governance.  I'm not anti-establishment I'm simply anti-secrecy regarding our governance and our public domains. Oh, wait a minute, I guess you're right, that does make me anti-establishment.

Quote
Apparently, to you, referencing a formal accounting of the federal government's status/progression on the TRC's 94 Calls to Action recommendations is... "accountability challenged"! Go figure, hey!
No, to me it's just boring olde run-of-the-mill self-serving sycophancy.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: MH on June 04, 2021, 08:23:52 pm
I think it should be an option for people to disassociate themselves from Canada and stop paying all taxes.  In return you can't call 9-11 or use any doctors, hospitals, vaccines, public roads, schools, or benefit from military or police protection whereby domestic or foreign actors are free to murder you without recourse.  Canada sucks.

"I declare myself disassociated"

Missile hits house.

Minister of Defense shrugs.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Cultu
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 08:45:47 pm
You have been benefiting from that from the day you were born and still are as you continue to complain.
I bet you wouldn't say that to a 1st Nation.  Are they more human than me or something?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Cultu
Post by: wilber on June 04, 2021, 09:10:45 pm
I bet you wouldn't say that to a 1st Nation.  Are they more human than me or something?

I said it to you. Are you more persecuted or disadvantaged than them?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Cultu
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 10:40:01 pm
I said it to you. Are you more persecuted or disadvantaged than them?
I'm certainly as outraged and cynical as some are.

I ascribe a lot more of the benefit to living in this part of the world to the simple decency of the vast majority of people who live here.  Canada isn't responsible for that decency, it's the other way around.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 04, 2021, 10:52:32 pm
I'm really pissed off that all this was done to somehow in some fashion benefit me.  When friends of mine were being raped and tortured in school I was being flown to Ottawa to meet the Prime Minister and stand in awe in the Parliament buildings and then used in a photo-op to showcase Canada's Centennial. "Canada...1 little 2 little 3 Canadians. Weeee love thee!"  Anyone else remember our happy smiling faces and waving our little flags?

I feel like vomiting.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 04, 2021, 11:22:20 pm
So you wash your hands of Canada. This is no longer your problem. Nice.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 05, 2021, 10:00:26 am
So you wash your hands of Canada. This is no longer your problem. Nice.
If we all did that, the problem could be solved.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 05, 2021, 10:59:47 am
and your diehard anti-establishment shtick is becoming quite boringly old!
It's still in its infancy compared to the olde fashioned systemic secrecy at the core of our governance.  I'm not anti-establishment I'm simply anti-secrecy regarding our governance and our public domains. Oh, wait a minute, I guess you're right, that does make me anti-establishment.

Apparently, to you, referencing a formal accounting of the federal government's status/progression on the TRC's 94 Calls to Action recommendations is... "accountability challenged"! Go figure, hey!
No, to me it's just boring olde run-of-the-mill self-serving sycophancy.

answer to reporter's question asked at a June 4th new briefing:

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
Just this week in parliament, we officially created the national day for truth and reconciliation. We’ve moved forward so that our citizenship oath now includes recognition of indigenous peoples. And the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples has made it through the House and I call on the Senate to ensure that it passes very soon. Overall, 80% of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action that fall under our government’s responsibility are completed or well underway. This is progress, but there is much more to do. That’s why we’re giving more control to indigenous communities over healthcare, as well as making sure there are fewer indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system. Indigenous peoples across the country should feel safe and respected and should have a real and fair chance at success. Together, this is the future we must all build.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 05, 2021, 12:05:47 pm
If we all did that, the problem could be solved.

Who would solve it if everyone checked out? Checking out is just ignoring.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 05, 2021, 02:00:19 pm
Who would solve it if everyone checked out? Checking out is just ignoring.
The new government of our new country. I'm not ignoring the need for good government - my aim is to finally establish one.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 05, 2021, 02:41:08 pm
The new government of our new country. I'm not ignoring the need for good government - my aim is to finally establish one.

Great but that doesn't do anything for the issue at hand. Do you think FN should wait another 100 years or however long it takes for us to build one? What part would they have in it?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 05, 2021, 07:40:02 pm
Great but that doesn't do anything for the issue at hand. Do you think FN should wait another 100 years or however long it takes for us to build one? What part would they have in it?
They should have the most important one's. I've suggested foreign policy, which I believe to be just about the most important function of a government, representing us and interacting with other countries and peoples.  That would come after the first issue at hand though which would be founding a new country and government and more importantly a new basis for them. 1st Nations should be given preeminence in shaping that basis for the same reason they have preeminence in fisheries - they were simply here first. I wouldn't doubt if it does take a hundred years too - in fact I have serious expectations that our sustainability issues with the planet will more likely overwhelm human civilizations and kick us into a centuries long interregnum and a New Dark Age.  That said finding new ways of organizing and governing ourselves might be the only way to avoid a global collapse.

In any case and as to your question I think it would be more appropriate to ask what part we have in it.  I think in accordance with our status as colonists and the process by which Canada was originally created the foundational basis for our country should be negotiated between First Nation's and our Commonwealth's Monarch.  We'd basically be spectators until such time as these had determined what part 'our' nation would have in it and we were invited to bring our values to the table for consideration and inclusion in a new confederation.  Our concerns will not be ignored, we're facts on the ground and we're not going anywhere.

Of course we can expect the usual suspects to snort that a country preeminently based on 1st Nations values will be as savage as they were in the past and dictatorial and no doubt communist - the fear of communism always gets the rubes doesn't it? But I seriously doubt that because I believe that thru their suffering and experience they have a much greater appreciation for the utility of the magic words (do unto others yadda yadda) than us, and most certainly our religions, and as such I think could be expected to deeply incorporate the importance of these words into the basis for our country and governance moving forward.  We could all benefit from shaping our revolution around indigenous aspirations.

I recall at a public meeting during treaty negotiations when a local chief addressed a common fear being expressed by saying "there's nothing to be gained by anyone if we simply transfer the poverty and powerlessness of my village to your's". That was over 20 years ago and the treaty has been one of the biggest economic drivers in our region ever since.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 05, 2021, 08:40:15 pm
So you want sit by and do nothing until the Queen sorts it out?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 05, 2021, 09:18:07 pm
So you want sit by and do nothing until the Queen sorts it out?
Sure, that's what I said.
 
Anyways we'll see where things stand over the next couple or three years of one mass grave after another and thousands of thousands of kids bodies are unearthed. Let me guess I bet you imagine this issue pales before Canada's national debt.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 05, 2021, 10:58:42 pm
Sure, that's what I said.
 
Anyways we'll see where things stand over the next couple or three years of one mass grave after another and thousands of thousands of kids bodies are unearthed. Let me guess I bet you imagine this issue pales before Canada's national debt.

And if it does? We just wash our hands of it and leave it to the Queen? The schools were started after Confederation. Canada had home rule, you can't hang it on the Brits.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 05, 2021, 11:47:10 pm
And if it does? We just wash our hands of it and leave it to the Queen? The schools were started after Confederation. Canada had home rule, you can't hang it on the Brits.
You can hang colonization on the Brits and the monarchs who've washed their filthy bloody hands of it.  Brits gave Canada home rule and left it up to us to subjugate the natives.  It was pointed out here a while back that Canada's indigenous peoples are probably Canada's staunchest monarchists. Apparently because they know its where the real pavement is that the rubber of sovereignty hits.  If Canada became a republic indigenous people would have to resort to war.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 06, 2021, 08:51:53 am
You can hang colonization on the Brits and the monarchs who've washed their filthy bloody hands of it.  Brits gave Canada home rule and left it up to us to subjugate the natives.  It was pointed out here a while back that Canada's indigenous peoples are probably Canada's staunchest monarchists. Apparently because they know its where the real pavement is that the rubber of sovereignty hits.  If Canada became a republic indigenous people would have to resort to war.

It gave you this country and the life you have enjoyed. You can’t just enjoy the benefits while blaming the costs on others.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 06, 2021, 09:37:25 am
It gave you this country and the life you have enjoyed.
Except it wasn't their's to give.

Quote
You can’t just enjoy the benefits while blaming the costs on others.
You can? I guess that's the difference between us.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 06, 2021, 10:54:19 am
Except it wasn't their's to give.
You can? I guess that's the difference between us.
You have no problem with receiving it.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 06, 2021, 02:02:57 pm
You have no problem with receiving it.
Well, clearly I do Wilber. You're either not paying any attention whatsoever to what I've been saying or you simply don't want to. Is it because it offends you that your institutions are being put on the defensive?  I'm pretty sure you know the difference between right and wrong but apparently you can't abide having it rubbed in Canada's nose - you're either to proud or so shocked you can't let go of or relax your attachment to the home rule we received.  You're afraid of losing something when in actual fact all I'm suggesting is that we reframe how we received it so that it is established on a more ethical and moral foundation.

Canada is like a building constructed on permafrost. It looked solid at first and seemed to hold up for quite some time but apparently no one imagined a day when the ground might shift and reveal our country's old young skeletons and topple our illusions.  Actually it's more accurate to say we built the place on a mass grave and you're trying to wash your hands of it.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 06, 2021, 03:05:01 pm
Well, clearly I do Wilber. You're either not paying any attention whatsoever to what I've been saying or you simply don't want to. Is it because it offends you that your institutions are being put on the defensive?  I'm pretty sure you know the difference between right and wrong but apparently you can't abide having it rubbed in Canada's nose - you're either to proud or so shocked you can't let go of or relax your attachment to the home rule we received.  You're afraid of losing something when in actual fact all I'm suggesting is that we reframe how we received it so that it is established on a more ethical and moral foundation.

Canada is like a building constructed on permafrost. It looked solid at first and seemed to hold up for quite some time but apparently no one imagined a day when the ground might shift and reveal our country's old young skeletons and topple our illusions.  Actually it's more accurate to say we built the place on a mass grave and you're trying to wash your hands of it.

I'm not offended of afraid of losing something, i'm just saying you can't disassociate yourself from this.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 06, 2021, 06:17:24 pm
I'm not offended of afraid of losing something, i'm just saying you can't disassociate yourself from this.
It's more a matter of associating myself with my 1st Nations neighbours and recognizing their chiefs and and being thankful for welcoming me into their territory. I feel much more at home as a human being here than I do in Canada as a colonist.

Gorgeous Graham may be onto something with his suggestion that simply denouncing the government should morph into mutual denouncement for people who wish to opt out. Now that Canada's government has admitted it's genocide it will soon find itself being handed a bill for reconciliation the price of which may be so high on top of everything else that our taxes either go thru the roof or our services go in the toilet or both.  Soon you'll be demanding the Brits and the Pope pay their share too. 

I'll take my chances with the Nuu-Chah-Nulth.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 06, 2021, 07:18:31 pm
It's more a matter of associating myself with my 1st Nations neighbours and recognizing their chiefs and and being thankful for welcoming me into their territory. I feel much more at home as a human being here than I do in Canada as a colonist.

Gorgeous Graham may be onto something with his suggestion that simply denouncing the government should morph into mutual denouncement for people who wish to opt out. Now that Canada's government has admitted it's genocide it will soon find itself being handed a bill for reconciliation the price of which may be so high on top of everything else that our taxes either go thru the roof or our services go in the toilet or both.  Soon you'll be demanding the Brits and the Pope pay their share too. 


The Brits and the Pope are responsible. I saw naathing worthy of Sergeant Shultz. You can identify as what you want, you can’t change your biology or origins.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 07, 2021, 12:25:55 am
It's more a matter of associating myself with my 1st Nations neighbours and recognizing their chiefs and and being thankful for welcoming me into their territory. I feel much more at home as a human being here than I do in Canada as a colonist.

Gorgeous Graham may be onto something with his suggestion that simply denouncing the government should morph into mutual denouncement for people who wish to opt out. Now that Canada's government has admitted it's genocide it will soon find itself being handed a bill for reconciliation the price of which may be so high on top of everything else that our taxes either go thru the roof or our services go in the toilet or both.  Soon you'll be demanding the Brits and the Pope pay their share too. 

I'll take my chances with the Nuu-Chah-Nulth.

Aboriginals and non-aboriginals all live in Canada now, nobody's going anywhere, so we need to learn how to share this land.  Non-aboriginals feeling self-hatred, shame, and guilt for the sins of their fathers and denouncing their country isn't in any way useful, nor is it useful for aboriginals to live their lives angry and resentful about what they once consider "theirs" being taken from them.  The past is done, it's over, we can only deal with what can be done in the present and future and move forward in the best way possible.

That doesn't mean turning a blind eye to past wrongs and not demanding accountability, it just means not being stuck in the negative emotions about the past and moving on with our lives.  This goes for anything in life and it's how I try to live after learning the hard way.  Anyone may have been wronged at some point in their life, and it's very painful, but at some point you have to let go of that anger because it will tear you apart.

There really needs to be truth and reconciliation in this country so we can all try and get over all this and really move forward together while making things right as best we can. Aboriginals will never get all their land back because others live there now, just need to find some kind of compromise that's reasonable where most people are satisfied.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 11:14:11 am
That doesn't mean turning a blind eye to past wrongs and not demanding accountability, it just means not being stuck in the negative emotions about the past and moving on with our lives.  This goes for anything in life and it's how I try to live after learning the hard way.  Anyone may have been wronged at some point in their life, and it's very painful, but at some point you have to let go of that anger because it will tear you apart.
Go tell it to people who are reliving all their pain in light of Kamloops.

It's completely legitimate to use that anger to compel attention and action by directing it where it's deserved namely the government of Canada and the Pope.  Andrew Coyne hit the nail on the head by also pointing out that cancelling the celebration of John A MacDonald is justified given that the residential school system he created is too big and enduring an evil to just 'let go of'. By all means keep the history but like the attempt to not glorify horrific crimes we should refuse any recognition of its architects and perpetrators. This is far more than just a mere dark chapter of Canada's history and I suspect Canada Day will feel a little strained and muted this year. It's a paid statutory holiday too isn't? Amazing.
 
As for the present, the Catholic Church is very likely burning its secret records as we speak, the government knows it, and so for me it's not just anger its outright un-abiding disgust with the systemic nature of how our most important institutions dodge accountability and how we never deal with that.  They simply don't deserve to exist.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 07, 2021, 11:30:38 am
If the churches are hiding evidence and Canada doesn’t force them to be accountable, how can there be truth and reconciliation?

I am not about to believe that there are NO records anywhere that would’ve pointed to 215 children’s bodies buried in the yard.  Not until the authorities actually serve search warrants and subpoenas to the churches and actually look for evidence.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 12:28:38 pm
I recall that defenders of faith like to claim how the moral religious teachings from antiquity shape the modern legal systems and governments of today - that certainly seems true of Catholicism and Canada..
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 07, 2021, 02:34:59 pm
Go tell it to people who are reliving all their pain in light of Kamloops.

It's completely legitimate to use that anger to compel attention and action by directing it where it's deserved namely the government of Canada and the Pope.  Andrew Coyne hit the nail on the head by also pointing out that cancelling the celebration of John A MacDonald is justified given that the residential school system he created is too big and enduring an evil to just 'let go of'. By all means keep the history but like the attempt to not glorify horrific crimes we should refuse any recognition of its architects and perpetrators. This is far more than just a mere dark chapter of Canada's history and I suspect Canada Day will feel a little strained and muted this year. It's a paid statutory holiday too isn't? Amazing.
 
As for the present, the Catholic Church is very likely burning its secret records as we speak, the government knows it, and so for me it's not just anger its outright un-abiding disgust with the systemic nature of how our most important institutions dodge accountability and how we never deal with that.  They simply don't deserve to exist.

As I said, I'm not saying don't demand accountability, and for those that lived it they will rightly feel pain and anger whenever new details are brought to light, and sometimes trauma never goes away.  People wronged deserve justice.  But your solution is f*** Canada as an institution in its entirety, which is totally illogical and not at all helpful, and in fact counter-productive and in many ways despicable.  Feel free to move to a country that doesn't have blood on its hands, it simply doesn't exist.  If it wasn't for Canada and Britain we might all be speaking German, and if it wasn't for Sir John we'd probably be saluting our POTUS Donald Trump the last 4 years, and all of this goes for aboriginals too.  Canada is filled with faults and triumphs like any country.

There are many people on the hard left like you that only sees the negatives in our society and governments, and are doing their best to destroy Western Civilization before our very eyes because of all this guilt and self-hatred they have.  I know this because I used to feel it too.  It's a cancer.  Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean you have to destroy it, or that it also doesn't have positive aspects.  Taking down statues of Sir John is fine, but we need to be careful about the new narratives we create about our history because they can easily contain half-truths and crooked moralizing like the old false narratives we've been sold.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 07, 2021, 03:19:36 pm
As I said, I'm not saying don't demand accountability, and for those that lived it they will rightly feel pain and anger whenever new details are brought to light, and sometimes trauma never goes away.  People wronged deserve justice.  But your solution is f*** Canada as an institution in its entirety, which is totally illogical and not at all helpful, and in fact counter-productive and in many ways despicable.  Feel free to move to a country that doesn't have blood on its hands, it simply doesn't exist. If it wasn't for Canada and Britain we might all be speaking German, and if it wasn't for Sir John we'd probably be saluting our POTUS Donald Trump the last 4 years, and all of this goes for aboriginals too.  Canada is filled with faults and triumphs like any country.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/04faac5d284dbee0b01b5cc94add1774/tenor.gif)

Quote
There are many people on the hard left like you that only sees the negatives in our society and governments, and are doing their best to destroy Western Civilization before our very eyes because of all this guilt and self-hatred they have.  I know this because I used to feel it too.  It's a cancer. Just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean you have to destroy it, or that it also doesn't have positive aspects. Taking down statues of Sir John is fine, but we need to be careful about the new narratives we create about our history because they can easily contain half-truths and crooked moralizing like the old false narratives we've been sold.

You seem to be labouring under the mistaken impression that this is about correcting history and not addressing the ongoing legacy of historical wrongs. You cannot move on from the past when the past is still alive here in the present.

Also, couching every revelation about past atrocities with "but what about the good things" is a form of denialism.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 07, 2021, 04:18:14 pm
I’m beginning to think Canada needs help with this. Clearly, Canada isn’t going to hold anyone responsible. We had a Truth and Reconciliation commission that happened to omit that children’s bodies were buried in the backyard???

I think we need the International Criminal Court to look at this with Canada’s full support.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-canadian-lawyers-icc-residential-school-investigation-1.6052054
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 07, 2021, 04:52:01 pm
(https://media.tenor.com/images/04faac5d284dbee0b01b5cc94add1774/tenor.gif)

Yes Russia was the most instrumental country in defeating the Nazis, i was responding to eyeball's self-loathing of Canada specifically.

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You cannot move on from the past when the past is still alive here in the present.

Yes I agree with this and have addressed this.  There's nothing wrong with debating Sir John's legacy, taking down statues if need be etc.

Quote
Also, couching every revelation about past atrocities with "but what about the good things" is a form of denialism.

That's a misrepresentation of my point because I didn't do this.  I would never deny the seriousness and tragedy of these new revelations of past atrocities or try to underplay it.  I'm speaking of eyeball's knee-jerk reaction towards completely disavowing himself of Canada due to these kinds of revelations.

Racism, sexism, homophobia etc is a part of the legacy of every single government on earth.  That doesn't excuse it, it just means that our history as a country and a civilization is one of progress from a point where things weren't as just to where we've been on a continual journey over many centuries to rectify this.  Human rights in our society have been progressing since the Magna Carta.  It's logical that who we were as a society 150 years ago wasn't as just as it is today, and that's not a reason to hate our past or ourselves in their entirety, it's just to say there's times where we've been very wrong about some things that have been and still need to be rectified.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 07, 2021, 04:56:47 pm
I’m beginning to think Canada needs help with this. Clearly, Canada isn’t going to hold anyone responsible. We had a Truth and Reconciliation commission that happened to omit that children’s bodies were buried in the backyard???

I think we need the International Criminal Court to look at this with Canada’s full support.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-canadian-lawyers-icc-residential-school-investigation-1.6052054

Maybe.  Clearly people and entities don't like holding themselves responsible.  The Pope has refused to apologize because he knows doing so is an admission of guilt which could help groups in Canada to sue Catholic churches in Canada.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2021, 05:34:51 pm
Maybe.  Clearly people and entities don't like holding themselves responsible.  The Pope has refused to apologize because he knows doing so is an admission of guilt which could help groups in Canada to sue Catholic churches in Canada.

As more of the skeletons come out of the closet, what the Pope does or doesn't do will have little bearing on legal consequences for the church.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 06:19:48 pm
But your solution is f*** Canada as an institution in its entirety, which is totally illogical and not at all helpful, and in fact counter-productive and in many ways despicable.  Feel free to move to a country that doesn't have blood on its hands...
Canada **** itself. Please get it off my planet.

That said, if you look more carefully you'll note I said our confederation should be rejigged according to who was here first and who colonized it which btw was not Canada. Its the colony not the colonizer.  I'd suggest this time we might want to edit out the goddamn Catholic Church.

It'll take years and I doubt Canadians will even notice the difference in their lives. Fewer liars in government hopefully.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 06:25:34 pm
There are many people on the hard left like you that only sees the negatives in our society and governments
There are too many people from across the ideological spectrum who seem to believe that most of that which is good in our society is due to our institutions. You've got it completely backwards.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 07:03:53 pm
I'm speaking of eyeball's knee-jerk reaction towards completely disavowing himself of Canada due to these kinds of revelations.
I've been disavowing myself of what Canada is for about 25 years now. That was about the time the reality of indigenous land claims started hitting close to home.  You talk about proactively getting over losing something or fighting for something, well, my answer to losing my boat, my livelihood and almost my home, my family and my life was to dig deeper into why land claims were so necessary as to threaten all these.  Understanding why came soon enough and I learned where my anger and determination to effect a change should really be directed.

My single biggest contribution was to help capture a fisherman's 'coalition' that formed to oppose the DFO's AFS, the Aboriginal Fisheries Strategy. At the time the AFS felt like DFO's final nail in the coffin my fishery was being buried in. I didn't know it at the time but being the main spokesperson and organizer for that group put me in a position where I was able to let fall off a cliff thru neglect.  I must have known instinctively I was on the wrong side of history and I'm just bloody thankful I didn't bring even more divisiveness into my community thru unfocussed anger.

It's pretty easy for the vast majority of Canadians to let this drag on because they've never felt the effects of letting it.

I live just up the road from a native village, we don't call it the reserve anymore. I'll never forget the time almost 45 years ago this fellow my age came walking up the road one day hollering..."Its all mine...this is all mine and they're giving it all back"! He repeated this a few times and as he passed my place I asked him what was up.  He said "You didn't get the letter? Well they're giving it all back" What I asked..."Everything"! he said and wandered off. It was some 20 years before the significance of what he was saying became apparent.  He was a hereditary chief, a residential school survivor I wound up befriending and fishing and logging with on occasion.

That old saying if I'd known then what I know now often comes to mind - it always makes me wonder what's happening now that I should be paying attention to.  That's a hard learned lesson I teach my grandkids.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 07:18:22 pm
The Pope has refused to apologize because he knows doing so is an admission of guilt which could help groups in Canada to sue Catholic churches in Canada.
The Pope knows there's far far more at stake here - the sort of global apology 1st Nations are demanding of that bastard could cause a revolution in how humans organize their institutions in a way that greatly diminishes their power.  National governments seem to instinctively know it too.

A human revolution that coalesces around indigenous aspirations is probably the most humane way forward.  I suspect the resistance to that revolution will be where it gets bloodiest.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 07, 2021, 09:34:18 pm
That's a misrepresentation of my point because I didn't do this.  I would never deny the seriousness and tragedy of these new revelations of past atrocities or try to underplay it.  I'm speaking of eyeball's knee-jerk reaction towards completely disavowing himself of Canada due to these kinds of revelations.

How can you acknowledge the seriousness of those revelations and then glibly suggest they "move on" and "just let go?"

Quote
Racism, sexism, homophobia etc is a part of the legacy of every single government on earth.  That doesn't excuse it, it just means that our history as a country and a civilization is one of progress from a point where things weren't as just to where we've been on a continual journey over many centuries to rectify this.  Human rights in our society have been progressing since the Magna Carta.  It's logical that who we were as a society 150 years ago wasn't as just as it is today, and that's not a reason to hate our past or ourselves in their entirety, it's just to say there's times where we've been very wrong about some things that have been and still need to be rectified.

And until those wrongs are righted, people will be angry at this whole colonial project, as they should be.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2021, 10:51:05 pm
How can you acknowledge the seriousness of those revelations and then glibly suggest they "move on" and "just let go?"

And until those wrongs are righted, people will be angry at this whole colonial project, as they should be.

It will be a painful process but we have to eventually. Do you want this to go on forever?

Like he says, no one is leaving.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 07, 2021, 10:56:52 pm
How can you acknowledge the seriousness of those revelations and then glibly suggest they "move on" and "just let go?"

Re-read the entirety of the post where I said those words and the context for which I said them and the post I was responding to.  I certainly never said for anyone not to be angry that they dug up 200+ bodies of dead kids, nor was I even talking about residential schools, I was referring to land being stolen.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 09:39:13 am
It will be a painful process but we have to eventually. Do you want this to go on forever?

Like he says, no one is leaving.

As the old joke says: "what do you mean 'we,' white man?"

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 09:43:45 am
Re-read the entirety of the post where I said those words and the context for which I said them and the post I was responding to.  I certainly never said for anyone not to be angry that they dug up 200+ bodies of dead kids, nor was I even talking about residential schools, I was referring to land being stolen.

There are hundreds of unsettled land claims in Canada. This (https://globalnews.ca/news/7928211/first-nations-defer-old-growth-logging-fairy-creek/) is happening right now. Or remember the settler violence against the Mi'kmaq fisheries last year that took place while the RCMP looked on?

Stolen people, stolen land, it's all the same issue and neither is close to being resolved so, again, expecting people to just give up and move on is an exceedingly privileged position to take.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 10:52:48 am
As the old joke says: "what do you mean 'we,' white man?"

We means everyone.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 10:54:24 am
There are hundreds of unsettled land claims in Canada. This (https://globalnews.ca/news/7928211/first-nations-defer-old-growth-logging-fairy-creek/) is happening right now. Or remember the settler violence against the Mi'kmaq fisheries last year that took place while the RCMP looked on?

Stolen people, stolen land, it's all the same issue and neither is close to being resolved so, again, expecting people to just give up and move on is an exceedingly privileged position to take.

No one is going to give up but things will have to be resolved at some point.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 11:46:44 am
We means everyone.

Who are you to tell anyone else how they should feel/act?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 11:47:30 am
No one is going to give up but things will have to be resolved at some point.

And until they are, people have every right to be pissed. Thanks for coming out.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 01:51:25 pm
Who are you to tell anyone else how they should feel/act?

I'm not telling anyone how to feel or act.

Quote
And until they are, people have every right to be pissed. Thanks for coming out.

Some people would rather always be pissed than actually work toward a conclusion. Are you one of them?

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 08, 2021, 02:18:46 pm
There are hundreds of unsettled land claims in Canada. This (https://globalnews.ca/news/7928211/first-nations-defer-old-growth-logging-fairy-creek/) is happening right now. Or remember the settler violence against the Mi'kmaq fisheries last year that took place while the RCMP looked on?

Stolen people, stolen land, it's all the same issue and neither is close to being resolved so, again, expecting people to just give up and move on is an exceedingly privileged position to take.

I never said for people to give up on land claims.  As I've said, justice should be served.

This week the statue of Ryerson at Ryerson University was toppled by protestors.  Behind the statue they spray-painted "Go Home!  Back where you came from. Me and my girls hate colonizers".  This kind of useless hatred is what I'm talking about.  Nobody is "going back home".  Canada has been colonized so we need to learn to live together while giving justice to those wronged.  Lots of #CancelCanadaDay hashtags are going around too, it's not productive, in fact its counter-productive and divisive.  You can celebrate your country while also condemning parts of its past or present.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 08, 2021, 02:23:24 pm
I never said for people to give up on land claims.  As I've said, justice should be served.

This week the statue of Ryerson at Ryerson University was toppled by protestors.  Behind the statue they spray-painted "Go Home!  Back where you came from. Me and my girls hate colonizers".  This kind of useless hatred is what I'm talking about.  Nobody is "going back home".  Canada has been colonized so we need to learn to live together while giving justice to those wronged.  Lots of #CancelCanadaDay hashtags are going around too, it's not productive, in fact its counter-productive and divisive.  You can celebrate your country while also condemning parts of its past or present.

If Russia had taken over Canada, and your family was abused in Russian residential schools, would you be happy about celebrating Russia Day?  Or would you graffiti some statues of Stalin?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 02:33:34 pm
I never said for people to give up on land claims.  As I've said, justice should be served.

This week the statue of Ryerson at Ryerson University was toppled by protestors.  Behind the statue they spray-painted "Go Home!  Back where you came from. Me and my girls hate colonizers".  This kind of useless hatred is what I'm talking about.  Nobody is "going back home".  Canada has been colonized so we need to learn to live together while giving justice to those wronged.  Lots of #CancelCanadaDay hashtags are going around too, it's not productive, in fact its counter-productive and divisive.  You can celebrate your country while also condemning parts of its past or present.

So in other words, you want them to smile, shut up and play nice and wait for Canada to resolve the many outstanding issues it has. Because that's worked so well for the last 150+ years.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 02:35:39 pm
I'm not telling anyone how to feel or act.

When you say "we" have to set aside our anger move on, that's exactly what you're doing.

Quote
Some people would rather always be pissed than actually work toward a conclusion. Are you one of them?

You can be angry and still be part of the solution. Anger is productive, anger motivates.

Man, respectability politics are the worst.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 08, 2021, 02:36:35 pm
So in other words, you want them to smile, shut up and play nice and wait for Canada to resolve the many outstanding issues it has. Because that's worked so well for the last 150+ years.

Your reading comprehension is poor.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 08, 2021, 02:46:07 pm
Your reading comprehension is poor.

What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 08, 2021, 03:07:49 pm
What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?

Huh?  I never commented on the statue being toppled. It was toppled by Antifa anarchists btw.  I commented on the hateful spraypaint, which isn't helpful, and is different than being angry.

Being angry because 215 dead kids were discovered is totally understandable, being angry because you want colonizers to "go home" and you hate them and you want to "cancel canada" is also understandable but isn't helping them or the situation.

I'm fine with removing the statue, even changing the university name, but it should be done by the university.  The vandals, who are largely antifa (the groups have posted it on twitter and FB), should be arrested and charged, and so should anyone responsible for abuse in the residential schools.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Dia on June 08, 2021, 03:22:39 pm
I never said for people to give up on land claims.  As I've said, justice should be served.

This week the statue of Ryerson at Ryerson University was toppled by protestors.  Behind the statue they spray-painted "Go Home!  Back where you came from. Me and my girls hate colonizers".  This kind of useless hatred is what I'm talking about.  Nobody is "going back home".  Canada has been colonized so we need to learn to live together while giving justice to those wronged.  Lots of #CancelCanadaDay hashtags are going around too, it's not productive, in fact its counter-productive and divisive.  You can celebrate your country while also condemning parts of its past or present.

I think you make more sense than not.  While I'm heartbroken about the kids that were found, I am also cognizant of the fact that at least, to some degree, the motives for the residential schools were 'good'.  Still, the government and church both failed miserably in their execution of this 'good intent'.  One can forgive ignorance, to a certain extent, but we weren't so barbarous at that point that people couldn't see the cruelty of dragging children from their parents or belief that beating children into submission was necessary.  Add to that the rampant sexual abuse that so many turned a blind eye to, the huge death toll of these kids, and the 'nutrition experiments' (link below) carried out on residential students between 1942 and 1952, and it's hard to belief that 'good intent' really was motivating the authorities.  It may have been a handy rationalization for people who felt a twinge of conscience, and looked good in the newspaper, but from here it looks like nothing more than virtue signalling.

I get angry when people deny just how devastating this was to First Nations; when they declare that these people should just get over it, that we did them a favor by bringing them into the "civilized" world, that we owe them nothing and their current circumstances - if they are poor, homeless or drug/alcohol addicted - is entirely of their own doing.

Apparently we were also involuntarily sterilizing First Nations women as late as 2018.   https://ijrcenter.org/forced-sterilization-of-indigenous-women-in-canada/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941673/ - nutrition experiments
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 03:50:58 pm
Your reading comprehension is poor.

Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 03:54:08 pm
Huh?  I never commented on the statue being toppled. It was toppled by Antifa anarchists btw.  I commented on the hateful spraypaint, which isn't helpful, and is different than being angry.

Being angry because 215 dead kids were discovered is totally understandable, being angry because you want colonizers to "go home" and you hate them and you want to "cancel canada" is also understandable but isn't helping them or the situation.

I'm fine with removing the statue, even changing the university name, but it should be done by the university.  The vandals, who are largely antifa (the groups have posted it on twitter and FB), should be arrested and charged, and so should anyone responsible for abuse in the residential schools.

Honestly? Boo-fu*king-hoo. No progress has ever been made by people being nice.



Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Dia on June 08, 2021, 04:01:55 pm
Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.  A meme I saw yesterday, posted by a relative who is First Nations said "The fact that indigenuous people seek recognition and not revenge should tell you exactly which culture is the 'civilized' one".  Simplistic (as most memes are), but I think it does make the point that serving justice and getting along are simultaneously possible.

I don't agree 100% with GG all the time, but I think overall he presents a balanced view of the issue.  As a country, Canada does have some work to properly amend our past with First Nations, and that we do need to move on - together.   That is the message I most often hear from First Nations (though no doubt some would choose revenge over recognition) - they don't hold us, as in this generation, "responsible" for what our forebears did.  But we, in this generation, must acknowledge what happened in the past, learn and understand how it has impacted First Nations over generations, and do what we can to mitigate that damage in the present.

Edited to add:  I understand why the statue was torn down, though I don't agree with it; still, people will be people and emotions run high.  Its unfortunate that those who lack understanding will use that to dismiss the protests/protesters.  Any removal of these kinds of symbols should be done after calm discussion with all stakeholders, and not in the heat of a demonstration.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 04:15:26 pm
When you say "we" have to set aside our anger move on, that's exactly what you're doing.



No, we means we, everyone.

Quote
You can be angry and still be part of the solution. Anger is productive, anger motivates.

Man, respectability politics are the worst.


There are good reasons for anger but it is rarely productive, it just makes people fell better. Anything lasting has to be based on mutual respect. 

Don't forget but put the anger aside.

I think it is going to be a hard process for everyone but there has probably never been a better time or reason to start. Hope we don't blow it.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 04:17:54 pm
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.  A meme I saw yesterday, posted by a relative who is First Nations said "The fact that indigenuous people seek recognition and not revenge should tell you exactly which culture is the 'civilized' one".  Simplistic (as most memes are), but I think it does make the point that serving justice and getting along are simultaneously possible.

I guess i don't understand the complaint about angry rhetoric. I haven't seen anything from Indigenous people saying they don't want to find solutions, but they don't trust the government and institutions that brought us to this point and I can't say i blame them.

Quote
I don't agree 100% with GG all the time, but I think overall he presents a balanced view of the issue.  As a country, Canada does have some work to properly amend our past with First Nations, and that we do need to move on - together.   That is the message I most often hear from First Nations (though no doubt some would choose revenge over recognition) - they don't hold us, as in this generation, "responsible" for what our forebears did. But we, in this generation, must acknowledge what happened in the past, learn and understand how it has impacted First Nations over generations, and do what we can to mitigate that damage in the present.

Of course. But it takes some big brass balls to say "we need to come together to find solutions" while simultaneously scolding and tone-policing one side.

I think Canadians more than most are comfortable in their ignorance of what this country is really about so getting confronted with the reality that not everyone buys the nationalist Tim Horton's commercial version of who we are is jarring and makes people defensive. But the answer isn't for the people being confrontational to stand down, it's for the rest of us to wake the **** up.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 04:20:28 pm
No, we means we, everyone.

Weird, because I keep seeing one pov being singled out for being angry.

Quote
There are good reasons for anger but it is rarely productive, it just makes people fell better. Anything lasting has to be based on mutual respect. 

On the contrary, anger can be extremely productive. You think we'd even be having some of these debates if people weren't taking to the streets and knocking down statues but sending sternly worded letters to their MP and local newspapers?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 04:28:16 pm
Weird, because I keep seeing one pov being singled out for being angry.



I'm not singling out anyone, just saying that anger can only take you so far and after that it becomes an obstacle.

Quote
On the contrary, anger can be extremely productive. You think we'd even be having some of these debates if people weren't taking to the streets and knocking down statues but sending sternly worded letters to their MP and local newspapers?

But once the statues are knocked down and the letters written, then what? That's the easy stuff, someone has to do the hard stuff and actually deal with the issues.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 08, 2021, 05:50:30 pm
Nope, it's bang on.

In one breath you say"justice should be served" and in the next you say "we need to learn to live together" and get into tone-policing protests, which displays a stunning lack of awareness of how the former drives the latter while also being an incredibly privileged take from someone with no skin in the game.

Anger is a part of any healing process.  My point was we can't live our entire lives being angry, especially at things that can't be changed, like wanting colonizers to go home.  If eyeball wants to spend the rest of his life being angry at Canada and disavowing it the only thing that will do is harm himself.

If he's angry that 215 dead kids were discovered and wants justice I support that, it should make us all sad and angry.  I'm not talking about a bit of anger or outrage I'm talking about long-lasting bitterness and resentment that eats away at us deep inside.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 08, 2021, 06:58:21 pm
What if it was your grandma’s brother who was buried in the yard of the school?  Would you just accept seeing a statue of the man responsible for the murder of your relatives?  Or would you maybe bust out the spray paint?
Do you consider every child that died of diphtheria, tuberculosis,  measles, etc. to have been murdered?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 08, 2021, 07:04:15 pm
Do you consider every child that died of diphtheria, tuberculosis,  measles, etc. to have been murdered?

No.  But I consider their bodies to be desecrated after they were kidnapped and, likely, brutalized.  And not telling their family what happened to them was also a crime.   And then these crimes were covered up. 

But, no…. Not all of them were murdered. Maybe none of them were murdered.  I don’t recall mentioning murder, actually.  Did I mention murder in any of my previous posts?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 08, 2021, 07:49:36 pm
Uh...the one I quoted.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 08, 2021, 08:17:50 pm
Uh...the one I quoted.

Ah, the hypothetical.  Well, erase the murder part and insert the other crimes. 

Does that make a material difference to my point?  Not really.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 08, 2021, 09:08:50 pm
Do you consider every child that died of diphtheria, tuberculosis,  measles, etc. to have been murdered?

Would "victims of negligent homicide" work for you?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2021, 09:22:45 pm
Would "victims of negligent homicide" work for you?
Quite possible but those diseases also killed a lot of children the late 19th and early 20th century, even adults.

The child mortality rate for children under 5 was over 25% during the early 1900's.
Statista


Regardless of the cause of death, the disturbing part is how their deaths were treated. It's like they never existed.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2021, 07:22:30 am
Would "victims of negligent homicide" work for you?
Sure. I was just wondering how I should feel about my grandma who had three kids die of diphtheria in the 1930s.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: cybercoma on June 09, 2021, 07:51:52 am
  I commented on the hateful spraypaint, which isn't helpful, and is different than being angry.
Oh no. Not hateful spray paint. Sure as hell beats hateful arson on fishing boats in NS, or abandonment outside city limits in the middle of a Winnipeg winters, or...you know....mass unmarked graves of children.

But yeah, hateful spray paint...not helpful. /s
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2021, 08:03:39 am
I think you mean Regina.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 09:41:11 am
Quite possible but those diseases also killed a lot of children the late 19th and early 20th century, even adults.

The child mortality rate for children under 5 was over 25% during the early 1900's.
Statista


Regardless of the cause of death, the disturbing part is how their deaths were treated. It's like they never existed.

And those diseases were especially prevalent in places with overcrowded living conditions, poor ventilation, poor hygeine and poor nutrition, making residential schools the perfect places for such diseases to thrive.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 09:41:51 am
Sure. I was just wondering how I should feel about my grandma who had three kids die of diphtheria in the 1930s.

Oh were those kids forcibly removed by the government and shoved into overcrowded germ farms too?

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 09:42:34 am
I think you mean Regina.

Actually it was Saskatoon.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 09, 2021, 10:44:39 am
I'm not telling anyone how to feel or act.
You've effectively said I can't feel or act like an Earthling because its a cop out or some such thing.

'We'...LOL! Like I'm the only Earthling or something.  Get the hell off my planet? If I only could.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2021, 11:04:45 am
You've effectively said I can't feel or act like an Earthling because its a cop out or some such thing.

'We'...LOL! Like I'm the only Earthling or something.  Get the hell off my planet? If I only could.

I didn't tell you how to feel, I said maintaining it is someone else's problem is a cop out.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2021, 01:24:14 pm
Oh were those kids forcibly removed by the government and shoved into overcrowded germ farms too?
You don't get diphtheria from not being in an overcrowded germ farm.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 01:28:21 pm
You don't get diphtheria from not being in an overcrowded germ farm.

whoosh
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 09, 2021, 08:26:52 pm
I didn't tell you how to feel, I said maintaining it is someone else's problem is a cop out.
Of course that's a cop out, how does identifying the institutions and people responsible for those institutions do that?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2021, 08:29:12 pm
Of course that's a cop out, how does identifying the institutions and people responsible for those institutions do that?

It's not but it was a Canadian government program so we all bear some responsibility. You just can't walk away from that.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 10, 2021, 09:38:29 pm
It's not but it was a Canadian government program so we all bear some responsibility. You just can't walk away from that.
I wasn't, I was simply saying that neither should Britain further to which I said the monarchy should sit down with 1st Nations and rewrite the terms of Confederation and Constitution.

If the Pope can be called upon to offer an apology then so can the Queen. It's her responsibility to do something about the institutions they sicced on Canada and the world.  The worst that can be said of the Church during the colonizing phase was to cheer it on. No one forced England to behave the way they did.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2021, 09:57:52 pm
...the monarchy should sit down with 1st Nations and rewrite the terms of Confederation and Constitution.

some perspective, if you might indulge: as an official B.C. provincial government website states, indigenous peoples in British Columbia (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) make up ~4% of the population of B.C.. More pointedly, "There are 198 distinct First Nations in B.C., each with their own unique traditions and history. More than 30 different First Nation languages and close to 60 dialects are spoken in the province.".

as I interpret there is no commonality of views/positions held within/across the most disparate First Nations - relatively recently, that has become most pointedly evident given differing views/positions expressed by First Nations in regards the 'energy file'.

so, particularly given this most disproportionate ~4% number of existing First Nations peoples in B.C., what starting reference points might you consider for, as you say, the rewrite of the terms for Confederation and the Constitution?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2021, 10:20:30 pm
I wasn't, I was simply saying that neither should Britain further to which I said the monarchy should sit down with 1st Nations and rewrite the terms of Confederation and Constitution.

If the Pope can be called upon to offer an apology then so can the Queen. It's her responsibility to do something about the institutions they sicced on Canada and the world.  The worst that can be said of the Church during the colonizing phase was to cheer it on. No one forced England to behave the way they did.

The Queen of England is not the Monarch in Canada, the  Queen of Canada is. She does not act for England with regard to Canada. This is our problem whether the Queen is involved or not. Britain did not start the residential schools, Canada did.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: cybercoma on June 11, 2021, 01:22:42 pm
The Queen of England is not the Monarch in Canada, the  Queen of Canada is. She does not act for England with regard to Canada. This is our problem whether the Queen is involved or not. Britain did not start the residential schools, Canada did.
It's wild how many people don't understand constitutional monarchy as a system of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy

Some "light" reading to bring people up to speed on how our government functions.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 11, 2021, 01:43:41 pm
The Queen may say something eventually but that will be decided between her and her first minister, JT.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 11, 2021, 06:05:27 pm
The throne in England sent officials to govern its colonies and to legitimize its basis for governing with treaties signed with indigenous peoples. In the case of much of BC that didn't happen.

England simply didn't have the legal right as an institution to create a clone of itself on unceded lands. Canada is not responsible for the fact it's right to exist is questionable.

Is it fair to wonder if Canada's Confederation violates indigenous peoples' Constitutional rights?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 11, 2021, 06:28:59 pm
The throne in England sent officials to govern its colonies and to legitimize its basis for governing with treaties signed with indigenous peoples. In the case of much of BC that didn't happen.

England simply didn't have the legal right as an institution to create a clone of itself on unceded lands. Canada is not responsible for the fact it's right to exist is questionable.

Is it fair to wonder if Canada's Confederation violates indigenous peoples' Constitutional rights?

In 1871 there weren't 10,000 non aboriginals in BC.
The residential school system came into existence after 1880, Canada is responsible for them, period.
Canada didn't have a constitution until 1982.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 12, 2021, 09:45:35 am
The Queen may say something eventually but that will be decided between her and her first minister, JT.
It should be decided between the monarchy and 1st nations - Canada should have been created the same way and there's nothing but the lack of imagination and political will that says it can't be recreated by the proper authorities according to their properly established seniority and sovereignty in the scheme of things. .
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 12, 2021, 09:51:52 am
The Queen of England is not the Monarch in Canada, the  Queen of Canada is. She does not act for England with regard to Canada. This is our problem whether the Queen is involved or not. Britain did not start the residential schools, Canada did.
Canada did not start Canada. England did. The monarch had no right to create Canada on it's own without 1st Nations consent.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 12, 2021, 08:14:31 pm
Canada did not start Canada. England did. The monarch had no right to create Canada on it's own without 1st Nations consent.

Hence my suggestion Canada re-Confederate now that a more accurate understanding of everyone's legal rights, responsibilities and placement in line exists - 1st Nations, the British Monarchy and us.

I guess we'll have to figure out who represents us and my first choice would be a randomly picked Citizen's Assembly. I'd place political parties dead last on the list but who knows maybe a politician or two will be drafted.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 12, 2021, 08:40:18 pm
Hence my suggestion Canada re-Confederate now that a more accurate understanding of everyone's legal rights, responsibilities and placement in line exists - 1st Nations, the British Monarchy and us.

I guess we'll have to figure out who represents us and my first choice would be a randomly picked Citizen's Assembly. I'd place political parties dead last on the list but who knows maybe a politician or two will be drafted.

So no democracy, nobody has any say on anything, just a randomly picked group of people?  What's the punishment if they do something dumb or corrupt?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 12, 2021, 09:11:14 pm
So no democracy, nobody has any say on anything, j kiust a randomly picked group of people?
Just like it was in 1867, even more so from a1st Nations perspective.

Quote
What's the punishment if they do something dumb or corrupt?
More of the same. How do you like it so far? Wait until the 70th mass grave is unearthed and feeling like **** and looking like real assholes becomes normal.

You figure citizen's assemblies are dictators by default or something?  Slogging thru questions like your's is why this will take a hundred years.

The next 10 - 15 years are going to be just awful.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 12, 2021, 09:11:55 pm
So no democracy, nobody has any say on anything, just a randomly picked group of people?  What's the punishment if they do something dumb or corrupt?

Randomly picked by who?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 12, 2021, 09:26:57 pm
Randomly picked by who?
Picked by what you mean. A bingo tumbler would work.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 12, 2021, 10:35:56 pm
Picked by what you mean. A bingo tumbler would work.

What if they aren't interested?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 12, 2021, 11:23:03 pm
What if they aren't interested?

You'd have to give them an offer $$$ they couldn't refuse.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 12, 2021, 11:32:14 pm
Just like it was in 1867, even more so from a1st Nations perspective.
More of the same. How do you like it so far? Wait until the 70th mass grave is unearthed and feeling like **** and looking like real assholes becomes normal.

I don't think any of us should be surprised by these mass unmarked graves.  We've already known this happened a lot.  It's like all of a sudden this has become real for a lot of people.  Why do we need unmarked graves to be discovered to know what we already know and cause outrage?  We should already be outraged.

Quote
You figure citizen's assemblies are dictators by default or something?  Slogging thru questions like your's is why this will take a hundred years.

Democracy is annoying sometimes yes.  If you're going to change the entire political system there will be questions.

I'm saying if our policy makers are random then so will our policy.  There will be no voting and no input from the public.  People will be powerless, and public opinion won't sway policy makers because they aren't elected.

Also, do you think 100 years ago citizen assemblies would have treated residential schools any differently than MP's did?  I doubt it.  It's not like MP's were more racist than the general public back then.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 13, 2021, 12:01:49 am
Hence my suggestion Canada re-Confederate now that a more accurate understanding of everyone's legal rights, responsibilities and placement in line exists - 1st Nations, the British Monarchy and us.

asking again:

some perspective, if you might indulge: as an official B.C. provincial government website states, indigenous peoples in British Columbia (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) make up ~4% of the population of B.C.. More pointedly, "There are 198 distinct First Nations in B.C., each with their own unique traditions and history. More than 30 different First Nation languages and close to 60 dialects are spoken in the province.".

as I interpret there is no commonality of views/positions held within/across the most disparate First Nations - relatively recently, that has become most pointedly evident given differing views/positions expressed by First Nations in regards the 'energy file'.

so, particularly given this most disproportionate ~4% of the population number of existing Indigenous peoples in B.C., what starting reference points might you consider for, as you say, the rewrite of the terms for Confederation and the Constitution?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 13, 2021, 12:40:42 am
What if they aren't interested?
You mean all of them? Enough will be. That will motivate those who'd wish the whole thing just go away.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 13, 2021, 12:50:20 am
asking again:
They were here first...for the umpteenth time.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 13, 2021, 01:38:15 am
the monarchy should sit down with 1st Nations and rewrite the terms of Confederation and Constitution.
Hence my suggestion Canada re-Confederate

some perspective, if you might indulge: as an official B.C. provincial government website states, indigenous peoples in British Columbia (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) make up ~4% of the population of B.C.. More pointedly, "There are 198 distinct First Nations in B.C., each with their own unique traditions and history. More than 30 different First Nation languages and close to 60 dialects are spoken in the province.".

as I interpret there is no commonality of views/positions held within/across the most disparate First Nations - relatively recently, that has become most pointedly evident given differing views/positions expressed by First Nations in regards the 'energy file'.

so, particularly given this most disproportionate ~4% number of existing First Nations peoples in B.C., what starting reference points might you consider for, as you say, the rewrite of the terms for Confederation and the Constitution?

They were here first...for the umpteenth time.

and this means what... exactly in regards your repeated calls for a, "rewrite of the terms of Confederation and Constitution"... that, as you say, "Canada reConfederate". Means what exactly?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 13, 2021, 01:46:54 am
I don't think any of us should be surprised by these mass unmarked graves.  We've already known this happened a lot.  It's like all of a sudden this has become real for a lot of people.  Why do we need unmarked graves to be discovered to know what we already know and cause outrage?  We should already be outraged.
Nearly half of Canadians never learned about residential schools as students: survey
https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/local/british-columbia/2020/8/28/1_5083723.html

Add to this the number of Canadians who forgot or don't care. I also wonder how many new Canadians are told ...."oh and by the way"... during their orientation, not many I suspect.

Quote
Democracy is annoying sometimes yes.
Yeah almost as annoying as justice.

Quote
If you're going to change the entire political system there will be questions.

I'm saying if our policy makers are random then so will our policy.  There will be no voting and no input from the public.  People will be powerless, and public opinion won't sway policy makers because they aren't elected.
Well you know me. I'd probably trust the legal details to experts but just ensure they incorporate the normal human values you can expect a couple of thousand ordinary Canadians in various assemblies to bring to the table. One for each province and territory let's say.

What do you mean change the entire political system? You make it sound like I'm taking about deciding to be communists or something. What changes do you imagine people will notice in their day to day lives?  I still think fewer lying politicians will be the biggest thing.  You're afraid you'll be forced to learn a 1000 official indigenous languages or something?

Quote
Also, do you think 100 years ago citizen assemblies would have treated residential schools any differently than MP's did?  I doubt it.  It's not like MP's were more racist than the general public back then.
I have nothing but contemp for this sentiment and attitude. I think 100 years ago that everyone, and especially our most important institutions, knew better than to behave like unconscionable assholes. They knew full well, let me repeat that, they knew full well, that doing unto others as they'd have others do unto them was the appropriate way to behave. You seriously imagine it would be impossible to give this  better expression in a 21st century re-Confederation?

Only if we leave everything up to politicians and their effing parties.

Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 13, 2021, 01:54:01 am
and this means what... exactly in regards your repeated calls for a, "rewrite of the terms of Confederation and Constitution"... that, as you say, "Canada reConfederate". Means what exactly?
That we weren't here first. Are you stupid or just a slimy Liberal trying to be disingenuous?

Get lost in any case.  You have no business being in a discussion involving official accountability. Absolutely no business whatsoever.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 13, 2021, 12:56:18 pm
They were here first...for the umpteenth time.
and this means what... exactly in regards your repeated calls for a, "rewrite of the terms of Confederation and Constitution"... that, as you say, "Canada reConfederate". Means what exactly?

That we weren't here first. Are you stupid or just a slimy Liberal trying to be disingenuous?

Get lost in any case.  You have no business being in a discussion involving official accountability. Absolutely no business whatsoever.

yours is such an odd uncalled for reaction to a respectfully (multiple times) asked request for you to actually address your most broad calls to, as you say, "rewrite the terms of Confederation and Constitution"... that as you say, "Canada reConfederate" - how strange that you would react so!

you're the one speaking to a "rewrite of terms", yet, for some reason you choose to insult rather than offer some degree... any degree... of particulars/details of those terms that you personally would expect in said redo/rewrite! You're the one repeatedly speaking to the need for accountability - but apparently only for others, certainly not of yourself - yes?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 13, 2021, 01:46:21 pm
You mean all of them? Enough will be. That will motivate those who'd wish the whole thing just go away.

But you wouldn't question the motives of those who want to do it?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 13, 2021, 03:42:47 pm
as an official B.C. provincial government website states, indigenous peoples in British Columbia (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) make up ~4% of the population of B.C.. More pointedly, "There are 198 distinct First Nations in B.C., each with their own unique traditions and history. More than 30 different First Nation languages and close to 60 dialects are spoken in the province.".

as I interpret there is no commonality of views/positions held within/across the most disparate First Nations - relatively recently, that has become most pointedly evident given differing views/positions expressed by First Nations in regards the 'energy file'.

per StatsCan, a correction/update; one more directly in line with the latest census data; in regards to British Columbia:

=> ~64% of all Indigenous people in B.C. and 3.8% of the overall population identify as First Nations --- of which 72.8% had Registered or Treaty Indian status. Of these ~126,000 First Nations people with Registered or Treaty Indian status, ~40% lived on reserve, while the rest lived off reserve.
 
=> ~33% of Indigenous people in B.C. identify as Métis (2.0% of the overall population); of mixed Indigenous and European ancestry.

=> ~0.6% of B.C.’s Indigenous population identify as Inuit


per StatsCan, in line with the latest census data, in regards to Canada; Indigenous peoples in Canada (First Nations, Inuit and Métis) make up 4.9% - ~1.675 million of the population of Canada. Of these, persons further identify as:

=> First Nations (~58%); of which ~76% had Registered or Treaty Indian status... of which ~39% lived in rural Canada areas
=> Métis (~35%)
=> Inuit (~4%)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 19, 2021, 07:16:28 pm
But you wouldn't question the motives of those who want to do it?
Of course I would.  That's one of the main reasons why I've put in 30 years on a Area Planning Commission in my regional district.

The best place to keep an eye on a system of government is from within it.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 12:38:27 pm
751 unmarked graves (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/cowessess-first-nation-says-751-unmarked-graves-found-near-former-sask-residential-school-1.5483858)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 24, 2021, 05:07:03 pm
They were doing God’s work…. So that had to be good.  So a few kids got buried in the backyard…. Small price to pay for saving their souls, am-i-right?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mississauga-pastor-catholic-church-residential-schools-1.6077248

Quote
"We don't know how those children died. We don't know, we can't know, if they would've died if they stayed at home."

While he called for prayers and reconciliation, he also said, "Many people had very positive experiences of residential schools. Many people received health care and education and joyful experiences.

"They weren't universally awful. But there's still no place for the horrors that are alleged to have occurred there."
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2021, 06:52:25 pm
As I said before mortality rates for children under 5 didn’t drop below 25% until the 1920’s and that is for the population in general. Put a bunch of aboriginal kids with limited or no immunity to European diseases in close proximity and those diseases would go through them like wildfire. Their mortality rate would be higher even if there was no abuse. What bothers me as much as anything is the lack of respect they were shown in death.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 25, 2021, 09:58:19 am
As I said before mortality rates for children under 5 didn’t drop below 25% until the 1920’s and that is for the population in general. Put a bunch of aboriginal kids with limited or no immunity to European diseases in close proximity and those diseases would go through them like wildfire. Their mortality rate would be higher even if there was no abuse. What bothers me as much as anything is the lack of respect they were shown in death.

And none of these kids were under 5, so how is that figure relevant? At least try to compare apples to apples here.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 11:24:21 am
(https://i-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/AW/s/i.cbc.ca/1.6079958.1624626463!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/st-paul-s-co-cathedral.jpg)
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 12:16:05 pm
And none of these kids were under 5, so how is that figure relevant? At least try to compare apples to apples here.

According to the news, some of the Kamloops children were as young as 3. Even so, many of the childhood diseases we vaccinate for today were real child killers back then. It was also an era with no antibiotics and many of the other drugs and medical advances we take for granted. On average, Canadians live 24 years longer than they did in 1922.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 12:31:16 pm
I'm not trying to justify anything that happened, just pointing out that much higher mortality rates than we are accustomed to shouldn't be a big surprise even if the kids had been well looked after.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 12:41:21 pm
I'm not trying to justify anything that happened, just pointing out that much higher mortality rates than we are accustomed to shouldn't be a big surprise even if the kids had been well looked after.

Were they “well looked after”?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 12:56:32 pm
Were they “well looked after”?

Seems not but then I have never said they were.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 01:17:50 pm
Seems not but then I have never said they were.

Not directly….   But you seem to throw out tidbits of “information” that seems to sort of maybe kind of justifies what happened. 

Otherwise, why bring those up if you think they’re irrelevant anyway?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 02:01:22 pm
Not directly….   But you seem to throw out tidbits of “information” that seems to sort of maybe kind of justifies what happened. 

Otherwise, why bring those up if you think they’re irrelevant anyway?

They aren't irrelevant, perspective is important because assuming every grave was a result of abuse is not justified. There will plenty of evidence found that will condemn the system, there is no need to make any up.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 02:09:05 pm
They aren't irrelevant, perspective is important because assuming every grave was a result of abuse is not justified. There will plenty of evidence found that will condemn the system, there is no need to make any up.

Please quote where anyone said anything about these graves being the result of only abuse.  Any post, any article in this thread….  Where?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 03:29:39 pm
Please quote where anyone said anything about these graves being the result of only abuse.  Any post, any article in this thread….  Where?

 I think it has certainly been implied.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 03:32:19 pm
I think it has certainly been implied.

Cite where.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 03:44:12 pm
Cite where.

It isn't about what has been said, it's about what hasn't been. I'm just saying it. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash and this thread won't worthy of the GRRRR/ OUTRAGE CULTURE topic.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 03:45:38 pm
It isn't about what has been said, it's about what hasn't been. I'm just saying it. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash and this thread won't worthy of the GRRRR/ OUTRAGE CULTURE topic.

You don’t think it’s worthy of some outrage?

What outrage posted here do you disagree with?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 03:49:49 pm
You don’t think it’s worthy of some outrage?

What outrage posted here do you disagree with?

I think the system itself is worthy of outrage, the details are yet to be determined.

I'm not talking about here in particular, just about the way it has been treated in general. None of the things I brought up have been mentioned anywhere that I know of and there a lot of people in this world who think nothing has changed in the past 100 years.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: the_squid on June 25, 2021, 05:20:59 pm
I think the system itself is worthy of outrage, the details are yet to be determined.

I'm not talking about here in particular, just about the way it has been treated in general. None of the things I brought up have been mentioned anywhere that I know of and there a lot of people in this world who think nothing has changed in the past 100 years.

You think this school was abandoned 100 years ago and just forgotten? 

It operated until 1996. You don’t think someone maybe knew something?  That maybe there were records?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 07:10:46 pm
You think this school was abandoned 100 years ago and just forgotten? 

It operated until 1996. You don’t think someone maybe knew something?  That maybe there were records?

Yes I do think people knew things, so let's find out what they are.
I don't know why you are picking a fight.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2021, 08:02:30 pm
Not directly….   But you seem to throw out tidbits of “information” that seems to sort of maybe kind of justifies what happened. 

Otherwise, why bring those up if you think they’re irrelevant anyway?

The deaths of the kids is bad but probably not quite as bad as it seems because as wilbur says child mortality was much more common back in the day.  That's not defending anything just pointing out facts and putting things in proper perspective.  It would be interesting to know the mortality rate of residential school kids vs the average rate throughout the decades.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2021, 08:05:09 pm
It isn't about what has been said, it's about what hasn't been. I'm just saying it. Hopefully it will all come out in the wash and this thread won't worthy of the GRRRR/ OUTRAGE CULTURE topic.

If anyone said these facts publicly they'd be labeled a racist.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 26, 2021, 09:40:25 am
The deaths of the kids is bad but probably not quite as bad as it seems
It's actually worse due to ongoing efforts to cover up and downplay what happened and the slow dragged reconciliation process only adds insult to injury.

Only two burial sites into this and churches are already being burned to the ground. We probably haven't seen anything yet.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2021, 11:21:43 am
The deaths of the kids is bad but probably not quite as bad as it seems because as wilbur says child mortality was much more common back in the day.  That's not defending anything just pointing out facts and putting things in proper perspective.  It would be interesting to know the mortality rate of residential school kids vs the average rate throughout the decades.

I expect the rates would be higher in the schools, possibly a lot higher but we don't know that for a fact yet. Eyeball is right about the efforts to downplay and ignore this for years.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 26, 2021, 01:48:29 pm
I wonder how long it'll be until calls to defund Catholic schools start? We might as well be sending money to ISIS.

Diddling with kid's minds is on par with diddling their bodies afaic.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 27, 2021, 03:43:28 pm
They aren't irrelevant, perspective is important because assuming every grave was a result of abuse is not justified. There will plenty of evidence found that will condemn the system, there is no need to make any up.

The children were victims of an abusive system, ergo, they were victims of abuse.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on June 30, 2021, 11:11:54 am
Only two burial sites into this and churches are already being burned to the ground. We probably haven't seen anything yet.

as the waldo is aware - recent related Catholic church vandalism has occurred throughout B.C., Alberta & Saskatchewan; up until now... 4 on-reserve churches in BC were burned. I understand this is the first off-reserve church fire-raising: Century-old Catholic church in Morinville, Alta., destroyed by fire (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/morinville-church-alberta-burned-fire-1.6085688)

(https://i.imgur.com/R6JfQaY.png)

it's a process... a journey!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 05, 2021, 12:18:18 am
as the waldo is aware - recent related Catholic church vandalism has occurred throughout B.C., Alberta & Saskatchewan; up until now... 4 on-reserve churches in BC were burned. I understand this is the first off-reserve church fire-raising

I understand the anger, but man this isn't the way to go about things.  BLM riots have headed north of the border.

Riots/arson are a tell-tale sign that people don't feel justice is being served, so they feel their only choice is to take matters into their own hands.  Exactly the same happened with the BLM riots.  The solution is to finally hold the churches accountable.  The  Catholic Church is a true piece of crap for so many reasons.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on July 05, 2021, 06:19:57 pm
I understand the anger, but man this isn't the way to go about things.  BLM riots have headed north of the border.

Riots/arson are a tell-tale sign that people don't feel justice is being served, so they feel their only choice is to take matters into their own hands.  Exactly the same happened with the BLM riots.  The solution is to finally hold the churches accountable.  The  Catholic Church is a true piece of crap for so many reasons.
Violence is so inevitable in the face of such institutional intransigence it almost borders on appropriateness. I suspect the intransigence is born of the fear that indigenous people similarly abused around the planet will also demand accountability and reconciliation from past abusers. I hope and believe the inevitability of international systems of justice evolving to accommodate these indigenous aspirations will ultimately benefit all humanity. It'll take decades but a revolution is definitely on.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2021, 06:45:57 pm
Violence is so inevitable in the face of such institutional intransigence it almost borders on appropriateness.
[/quote]

"institutional intransigence"... in the face of Truth & Reconciliation - really?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on July 06, 2021, 12:04:20 am


"institutional intransigence"... in the face of Truth & Reconciliation - really?
Really. You're saying the Vatican and Pope have reconciled? Horseshit they have.

In any case would it matter if ISIS apologized and reconciled?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on July 06, 2021, 12:25:58 am
Really. You're saying the Vatican and Pope have reconciled? Horseshit they have.

In any case would it matter if ISIS apologized and reconciled?

make up your mind on the need/value of a Catholic Church apology! By the by:

Quote
The Canadian Catholic Church did not have a collective role in the residential schools; decisions were often made by individual dioceses and orders. Pope Benedict XVI met Aboriginal leaders in 2009 and expressed his sorrow for the experiences of the residential school survivors. Many critics argue that this was not a full apology. Individual bishops did apologize, following the example of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. This order, in charge of the largest number of the residential schools, offered this apology in 1991:
Quote
Next year, 1992, marks the five hundredth anniversary of the arrival of Europeans on the shores of America. As large scale celebrations are being prepared to mark this occasion, the Oblates of Canada wish, through this apology, to show solidarity with many Native people in Canada whose history has been adversely affected by this event. . . . As well, recent criticisms of Indian residential schools and the exposure of instances of physical and sexual abuse within these schools call for such an apology. . . . We apologize for the part we played in the cultural, ethnic, linguistic, and religious imperialism that was part of the mentality with which the Peoples of Europe first met the aboriginal peoples and which consistently has lurked behind the way the Native peoples of Canada have been treated by civil governments and by the churches. We were, naively, part of this mentality and were, in fact, often a key player in its implementation. We recognize that this mentality has, from the beginning, and ever since, continually threatened the cultural, linguistic, and religious traditions of the Native peoples.

We recognize that many of the problems that beset Native communities today—high unemployment, alcoholism, family breakdown, domestic violence, spiraling suicide rates, lack of healthy self-esteem—are not so much the result of personal failure as they are the result of centuries of systemic imperialism. Any people stripped of its traditions as well as of its pride falls victim to precisely these social ills. For the part that we played, however inadvertent and naive that participation might have been, in the setting up and maintaining of a system that stripped others of not only their lands but also of their cultural, linguistic, and religious traditions we sincerely apologize. . . .

In sympathy with recent criticisms of Native Residential Schools, we wish to apologize for the part we played in the setting up and the maintaining of those schools. We apologize for the existence of the schools themselves, recognizing that the biggest abuse was not what happened in the schools, but that the schools themselves happened . . . that the primal bond inherent within families was violated as a matter of policy, that children were usurped from their natural communities, and that, implicitly and explicitly, these schools operated out of the premise that European languages, traditions, and religious practices were superior to native languages, traditions, and religious practices. The residential schools were an attempt to assimilate aboriginal peoples and we played an important role in the unfolding of this design. For this we sincerely apologize.

We wish to apologize in a very particular way for the instances of physical and sexual abuse that occurred in those schools. . . . Finally, we wish to apologize as well for our past dismissal of many of the riches of native religious tradition. We broke some of your peace pipes and we considered some of your sacred practices as pagan and superstitious. This too had its origins in the colonial mentality, our European superiority complex, which was grounded in a particular view of history. We apologize for this blindness and disrespect. . . .

. . . Sincerity alone does not set people above their place in history. Thousands of persons operated out of this mentality and gave their lives in dedication to an ideal that, while sincere in its intent, was, at one point, naively linked to a certain cultural, religious, linguistic, and ethnic superiority complex. These men and women sincerely believed that their vocations and actions were serving both God and the best interests of the Native Peoples to whom they were ministering. History has, partially, rendered a cruel judgment on their efforts. . . .

Recognizing that within every sincere apology there is implicit the promise of conversion to a new way of acting. We, the Oblates of Canada, wish to pledge ourselves to a renewed relationship with Native Peoples which, while very much in line with the sincerity and intent of our past relationship, seeks to move beyond past mistakes to a new level of respect and mutuality …

Reverend Doug Crosby OMI
President of the Oblate Conference of Canada
On behalf of the 1200 Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate living and ministering in Canada
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on July 06, 2021, 09:25:49 am
make up your mind on the need/value of a Catholic Church apology!
The apology needs to come from the top to give it the value indigenous people deserve - recall they've made this a global issue.

I'm not surprised to see you trot out a couple of underlings to take the pressure off the top of the church - it reflects the same style of political and institutional accountability that you normally champion and defend.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on July 07, 2021, 12:51:00 am
The apology needs to come from the top to give it the value indigenous people deserve

of course the papacy had nothing to do with the related policies or their implementation... and, again: The Canadian Catholic Church did not have a collective role in the residential schools; decisions were often made by individual dioceses and orders. Individual bishops did apologize, following the apology example of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate - the order in charge of the largest number of the residential schools.

I'm not surprised to see you trot out a couple of underlings to take the pressure off the top of the church - it reflects the same style of political and institutional accountability that you normally champion and defend.

p i s s off! Your nonsensical "underlings" designation ignores the positioning and role of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. By the by, I must have missed you calling out the United Church... and the Archbishop of Canterbury no less!
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on July 07, 2021, 11:53:45 am
of course the papacy had nothing to do with the related policies or their implementation... and, again: The Canadian Catholic Church did not have a collective role in the residential schools; decisions were often made by individual dioceses and orders. Individual bishops did apologize, following the apology example of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate - the order in charge of the largest number of the residential schools.
Poor church...its not fair

Quote
p i s s off! Your nonsensical "underlings" designation ignores the positioning and role of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate.
Actually it mocks your attempt to position them.

Quote
By the by, I must have missed you calling out the United Church... and the Archbishop of Canterbury no less!
Ah whataboutery...yeah that'll work, no one ever catches on to that.
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: waldo on July 07, 2021, 12:11:43 pm
Poor church...its not fair

Actually it mocks your attempt to position them.

Ah whataboutery...yeah that'll work, no one ever catches on to that.

again, the papacy had no role... for that matter the Canadian Catholic Church did not have a collective role; again, decisions were often made by individual dioceses and orders.

ya ya, the waldo isn't, as you say, "positioning" the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate... their role, their "positioning", is self-acknowledged; their apology speaks for itself.

really? Whataboutery? Really? You mean like all those clamouring for a papal apology... while drawing reference to all the other apologies given along the way. Like that?
Title: Re: Canadian-Aboriginal Culture
Post by: eyeball on July 07, 2021, 11:30:58 pm
again, the papacy had no role... for that matter the Canadian Catholic Church did not have a collective role; again, decisions were often made by individual dioceses and orders.
You hear much the same argument from the sort of people who support the O'toole's of the world - that taxpayers are not responsible for reconciliation. It's just a variation on the old shtick "it was a different age back then...time to get over it".

Quote
ya ya, the waldo isn't, as you say, "positioning" the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate... their role, their "positioning", is self-acknowledged; their apology speaks for itself.
Sure...the Vatican and it's Pope's never knew nuthin' about nuthin'. Maybe it's an Italian thing.

Quote
really? Whataboutery? Really? You mean like all those clamouring for a papal apology... while drawing reference to all the other apologies given along the way. Like that?
No, like partisan hacks who deflect spotlights. Are you implying the other apologies should be retracted?