Post by: queenmandy85 on December 11, 2022, 02:27:36 pm
On Dec. 11, 1931, Canada became an independent country. Let the bells ring out and the banners fly.
Post by: waldo on December 11, 2022, 04:01:42 pm
ain't history grand! At the 1926 Imperial Conference, set in motion by Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King... signed Dec 11, 1931 by PM King:
(https://i.imgur.com/S0diVSW.png)
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It was made clear under the Statute of Westminster that each of the Dominions would have the right to choose which of the new resolutions it would accept, and which would be rejected in favour of past regulations. All but one of the Dominions chose to adopt every resolution and thus sever all legal ties to Britain; Canada was not fully prepared for complete independence. Government ministers were unable to agree upon a method which could be used to amend the Constitution, so it was decided that Britain would temporarily retain the power to do so. This remained in effect until the Constitution Act was passed in 1982.
Quote
On April 17, 1982, Queen Elizabeth II and Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, as well as the Minister of Justice, Jean Chrétien, and André Ouellet, the Registrar General, signed the Proclamation which brought the Constitution Act, 1982 into force. The proclamation confirmed that Canada had formally assumed authority over its constitution, the final step to full sovereignty.
Liberal Prime Ministers King and Trudeau - gettin'-er-done!
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 11, 2022, 06:01:52 pm
Post by: wilber on December 11, 2022, 08:03:51 pm
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 11, 2022, 09:33:39 pm
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 11, 2022, 10:20:01 pm
MacKenzie King was a racist.
I wonder what % of our great grandfathers were racist?
Post by: wilber on December 11, 2022, 10:24:23 pm
I wonder what % of our great grandfathers were racist?
Probably most of them, at least to some degree.
Post by: guest18 on December 11, 2022, 10:45:36 pm
Post by: Black Dog on December 11, 2022, 11:56:43 pm
Post by: guest18 on December 12, 2022, 06:20:02 am
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 09:58:34 am
Show me someone who wasn't and there is likely evidence that, by today's standards, they totally were
John Brown.
Post by: guest18 on December 12, 2022, 10:37:04 am
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 11:08:15 am
According to this article "John Brown and Other Liberal Racists", he felt Black people were incapable of operating firearms so he gave them spears instead.
There's no evidence of that.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 11:35:16 am
There's no evidence of that.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna31332925
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 11:43:58 am
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna31332925
Doesn't say anything about him thinking Blacks couldn't use firearms. I mean the whole point of the raid on Harper's Ferry was to seize weapons for a slave revolt.
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 12, 2022, 12:02:22 pm
Canada is one of the few former colonies that does not feel the need to celebrate independence days. I think is says something good about this country.
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 12, 2022, 02:09:30 pm
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2022, 03:17:29 pm
I didn't take long for this thread to drift.
Canada is one of the few former colonies that does not feel the need to celebrate independence days. I think is says something good about this country.
Yes we celebrate the day we began to join together instead.
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 12, 2022, 03:19:20 pm
Speaking of thread drift: why is your name Queen Mandy ??Let's see...that is a long story...During the Profumo scandal in 1963, I saw photos of Christine Keeler and Marilyn (Mandy) Rice Davies. I thought Mandy was particularly hot.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 04:47:32 pm
Doesn't say anything about him thinking Blacks couldn't use firearms. I mean the whole point of the raid on Harper's Ferry was to seize weapons for a slave revolt.
He got them spears lol
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 04:49:56 pm
I didn't take long for this thread to drift.
Canada is one of the few former colonies that does not feel the need to celebrate independence days. I think is says something good about this country.
We celebrate confederation. Our history is one of evolution rather than revolution, so you can't make a day for the Statute of westminster and the Charter etc. There's too many days
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 12, 2022, 04:51:39 pm
He got them spears lol😂😂😂
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 12, 2022, 04:54:23 pm
My grandfather, who fought in the First World War, was very racist. Absolutely everyone was then. That's why it's stupid to try to apply our values to them. As Bill Mahar said, you aren't better, you were just born later. Future generations will be appalled by you too. They'll probably be disgusted you continued to build pipelines and to drive cars and to use single-use plastics well after you knew it was destroying the livability of the planet, among other things we would totally disagree with or just find inconceivable.I agree. It’s too bad you didn’t apply this standard to everyone. Instead, as statues of John A MacDonald, and Thomas Jefferson were torn down, you said nothing, and in some instances defended it. So **** off.
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 05:00:55 pm
He got them spears lol
and?
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 05:03:01 pm
I agree. It’s too bad you didn’t apply this standard to everyone. Instead, as statues of John A MacDonald, and Thomas Jefferson were torn down, you said nothing, and in some instances defended it. So **** off.
"Ah ha, you think people in the past were all racist, but you're against having statues of racists? Gotcha!"
retard.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 06:53:21 pm
and?
And your great grandfathers were probably racist, let's cancel them
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 12, 2022, 07:11:52 pm
And your great grandfathers were probably racist, let's cancel them
Do we venerate Black Dog’s grandpa with a statue?
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2022, 07:34:22 pm
Let's see...that is a long story...During the Profumo scandal in 1963, I saw photos of Christine Keeler and Marilyn (Mandy) Rice Davies. I thought Mandy was particularly hot.
So did I.
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2022, 07:36:39 pm
"Ah ha, you think people in the past were all racist, but you're against having statues of racists? Gotcha!"
retard.
We should get rid of every statue put up before 1930 because they were probably a racist. Maybe even later than that.
Post by: guest18 on December 12, 2022, 08:20:14 pm
I agree. It’s too bad you didn’t apply this standard to everyone. Instead, as statues of John A MacDonald, and Thomas Jefferson were torn down, you said nothing, and in some instances defended it. So **** off.No, I was opposed to that and said so. Again, you lose.
Post by: guest18 on December 12, 2022, 08:21:40 pm
Doesn't say anything about him thinking Blacks couldn't use firearms. I mean the whole point of the raid on Harper's Ferry was to seize weapons for a slave revolt.With closer scrutiny, my source was total BS. You were right that there is no evidence.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 12, 2022, 08:52:36 pm
With closer scrutiny, my source was total BS. You were right that there is no evidence.That’s ok. Most of your sources on everything are BS. We’re used to it.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 12, 2022, 08:54:50 pm
We should get rid of every statue put up before 1930 because they were probably a racist. Maybe even later than that.True. Using the woke standard, any statue put up before 2016 should be be pulled down. And the evaluate existing ones year by year depending on how norms change. That’s the woke mindset.
Post by: guest18 on December 12, 2022, 09:36:43 pm
That’s ok. Most of your sources on everything are BS. We’re used to it.What are you referring to?
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 09:58:05 pm
We should get rid of every statue put up before 1930 because they were probably a racist. Maybe even later than that.
Terry Fox used plastic forks. Tear his statues down.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 09:58:40 pm
With closer scrutiny, my source was total BS. You were right that there is no evidence.
I bet his dad was super racist though lol
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 10:29:43 pm
And your great grandfathers were probably racist, let's cancel them
They were dirt farmers and also dead, what can you do to them?
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 10:30:31 pm
We should get rid of every statue put up before 1930 because they were probably a racist. Maybe even later than that.
Yes, idolatry is a sin.
Post by: Black Dog on December 12, 2022, 10:31:55 pm
True. Using the woke standard, any statue put up before 2016 should be be pulled down. And the evaluate existing ones year by year depending on how norms change. That’s the woke mindset.
Now you’re dickriding inanimate objects, you have a serf mentality.
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2022, 11:38:47 pm
Yes, idolatry is a sin.
So you are against all statues.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2022, 11:42:31 pm
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 09:35:14 am
So you are against all statues.
Nah I love some Rodin, I just don't think most real people who have statues are actually deserving of them. And at the end of the day we're talking about chunks of metal, we're not digging them up and recreating the Cadaver Synod here.
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2022, 09:59:08 am
Nah I love some Rodin, I just don't think most real people who have statues are actually deserving of them. And at the end of the day we're talking about chunks of metal, we're not digging them up and recreating the Cadaver Synod here.
Actually many are, we just insist on judging them by our standards instead those of their day.
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 10:13:44 am
Actually many are, we just insist on judging them by our standards instead those of their day.
Nah this is horseshit. We judge them by their actions when they were alive. Look at someone like JAM, it's not about him personally holding racist beliefs, it's about creating the destructive residential school system and attempting to systematically starve the Indigenous population into submission.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 13, 2022, 10:22:08 am
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2022, 10:32:35 am
Nah this is horseshit. We judge them by their actions when they were alive. Look at someone like JAM, it's not about him personally holding racist beliefs, it's about creating the destructive residential school system and attempting to systematically starve the Indigenous population into submission.
He did those things and was actually cheered on by the Liberals, it's not like he was unique. On the other hand, he is the reason BC joined Canada and not the US and Canada stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific..
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“I have reason to believe that the agents as a whole … are doing all they can, by refusing food until the Indians are on the verge of starvation, to reduce the expense,” Macdonald told the House of Commons in 1882.
It’s one of the most damning quotations ever attributed to Macdonald. And yet, in the parliament record it’s immediately followed by an even more damning comment as the Liberal opposition benches accuse Macdonald of not starving Indians enough.
“No doubt the Indians will bear a great degree of starvation before they will work, and so long as they are certain the Government will come to their aid they will not do much for themselves,” said David Mills, who had served as minister of the interior under the Liberal government of Alexander Mackenzie.
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 10:48:46 am
He did those things and was actually cheered on by the Liberals, it's not like he was unique. On the other hand, he is the reason BC joined Canada and not the US and Canada stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific..
OK let's take down the statues of David Mills too, what do you want here?
If you want people to learn the complete picture of complicated figures like JAM, that's what history class is for. A statue doesn't do that.
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 10:49:38 am
Wasn’t Tom Douglas voted the greatest Canadian? Despite his racist and eugenics past? I guess wokies give some people a pass depending on their politics.
He gets a pass because he renounced those beliefs and never put them into practice even when he had the power to do so, you shiteating moron.
It's so funny that the very person whining about the left "destroying history" is so completely ignorant of the subject.
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2022, 12:26:59 pm
OK let's take down the statues of David Mills too, what do you want here?
If you want people to learn the complete picture of complicated figures like JAM, that's what history class is for. A statue doesn't do that.
Actually a statue can prompt people to find out more about a person.
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 12:38:35 pm
Actually a statue can prompt people to find out more about a person.
That doesn't counter my point at all. A statue on its own does nothing to further our understanding of a person. On its own, it presents an incomplete and overwhelmingly positive picture.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 13, 2022, 01:21:47 pm
Actually a statue can prompt people to find out more about a person.Exactly. Especially if there's a little plaque accompanying it. But a statue also doesn't have to prompt anything like that either. I'm not sure who appointed the idiot wokies as the statue police, but somebody finally needs to tell them to sit the f**k down and shut the f**k up. Wokies don't create anything. They don't invent anything. They don't build anything. All they do is destroy.
Post by: guest18 on December 13, 2022, 01:22:58 pm
Post by: Black Dog on December 13, 2022, 02:53:29 pm
Exactly. Especially if there's a little plaque accompanying it. But a statue also doesn't have to prompt anything like that either. I'm not sure who appointed the idiot wokies as the statue police, but somebody finally needs to tell them to sit the f**k down and shut the f**k up. Wokies don't create anything. They don't invent anything. They don't build anything. All they do is destroy.
That's not true we created dozens of new genders for you fascist pricks to cry about.
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2022, 06:13:46 pm
That doesn't counter my point at all. A statue on its own does nothing to further our understanding of a person. On its own, it presents an incomplete and overwhelmingly positive picture.
It does if it encourages people learn more about the character.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 09:46:34 am
It does if it encourages people learn more about the character.
Let's put QR codes on every statue! "To learn more about this political figure/genocide enthusiast, scan the code below!"
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2022, 10:31:37 am
Let's put QR codes on every statue! "To learn more about this political figure/genocide enthusiast, scan the code below!"
Let's also put QR codes on the tombstones of everyone's grandparents to tell everyone how much of a racist piece of crap they were!
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 10:44:32 am
Let's put QR codes on every statue! "To learn more about this political figure/genocide enthusiast, scan the code below!"
Actually that's a damn good idea.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 10:44:54 am
Let's also put QR codes on the tombstones of everyone's grandparents to tell everyone how much of a racist piece of crap they were!
"Says here he pretended to be Black online and made super racist jokes about Chinese people's names."
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 10:45:41 am
Actually that's a damn good idea.
Better: replace statues with holograms so they can repeat the actual racial slurs they used in life.
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 10:55:41 am
Better: replace statues with holograms so they can repeat the actual racial slurs they used in life.
You don't want anyone to learn about these people, you just want to make like they never existed.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 10:58:19 am
You don't want anyone to learn about these people, you just want to make like they never existed.
Don't be daft. Why wouldn't I want people to know how awful some of our "heroes" actually were?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 11:19:16 am
Don't be daft. Why wouldn't I want people to know how awful some of our "heroes" actually were?
And how are they going to do that?
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 11:31:51 am
And how are they going to do that?
I dunno, how am I going to make like they never existed?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 11:51:04 am
I dunno, how am I going to make like they never existed?
By erasing evidence they existed. Now answer my question.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 11:54:27 am
By erasing evidence they existed.
You ever hear of "books?"QuoteNow answer my question.
See above.
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 11:55:49 am
See above.
How are you going to lead people to books if you try to erase their existence?
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 12:01:44 pm
How are you going to lead people to books if you try to erase their existence?
If there are books about them then their existence isn't being fuckin erased, now is it?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 01:16:03 pm
If there are books about them then their existence isn't being fuckin erased, now is it?People have to know who they were before they are going to read a book about them.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 02:30:33 pm
People have to know who they were before they are going to read a book about them.
That's what "school" is for. You are also accidentally making a point about the exclusionary and nature of teaching history through bronze effigies because most statues of "important" historical figures are old white dudes.
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 02:38:52 pm
That's what "school" is for. You are also accidentally making a point about the exclusionary and nature of teaching history through bronze effigies because most statues of "important" historical figures are old white dudes.
What about the thousands of people who come here every year who never went to school in Canada? Do you say to them, welcome to beautiful free Canada one of the best countries in the world to live in. BTW, all the people who made it happen were racist PoS. That's all you need to know about Canadian history.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 02:53:59 pm
What about the thousands of people who come here every year who never went to school in Canada? Do you say to them, welcome to beautiful free Canada one of the best countries in the world to live in. BTW, all the people who made it happen were racist PoS. That's all you need to know about Canadian history.
Do you take them on a tour of every single statue instead? Not to mention what an incomplete and skewed version of history they would get by learning that way,
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 02:58:51 pm
Do you take them on a tour of every single statue instead? Not to mention what an incomplete and skewed version of history they would get by learning that way,
No, but seeing a statue could make them curious about learning more about that person.
You would also offer an incomplete and skewed version of history.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 03:14:52 pm
No, but seeing a statue could make them curious about learning more about that person.
I think the very idea that we need to keep all the statues celebrating dead racist guys on the off chance an immigrant sees it and decides to google them is goofy to me. I think yoiu fundamentally misunderstand the role of these monuments, their place in the public sphere and their utility as teaching tools.
Quote
You would also offer an incomplete and skewed version of history.
How so?
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 14, 2022, 03:29:04 pm
Post by: guest18 on December 14, 2022, 03:54:53 pm
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 03:58:06 pm
By "wokeness", do you mean "an awareness of inequality and injustice"?
He's a racist and bigot, so yes.
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 04:02:25 pm
By "wokeness", do you mean "an awareness of inequality and injustice"?
It should mean awareness of everything, otherwise it is just another narrative.
Churchill was racist and a colonialist but he was also a product of the 19th century, He was no more unique in his age than MacDonald was in his.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 14, 2022, 04:35:54 pm
By "wokeness", do you mean "an awareness of inequality and injustice"?No. I mean stupidity and naivety. Judging people from the past using standards of today. It really doesn’t get much stupider than that.
https://youtu.be/schuzjknjYE
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 04:56:51 pm
No. I mean stupidity and naivety. Judging people from the past using standards of today. It really doesn’t get much stupider than that.
I find the same dipshits who believe this also tend to be the same people who cry about "moral relativism" which tells you what you need to know about their intellectual capabilities.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 05:04:03 pm
It should mean awareness of everything, otherwise it is just another narrative.
Churchill was racist and a colonialist but he was also a product of the 19th century, He was no more unique in his age than MacDonald was in his.
What's wrong with judging people of the past by the standards of today? Also, Churchill, to use your example, was a especially virulent racist even for his time, how do you propose to address those like him?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 05:17:07 pm
What's wrong with judging people of the past by the standards of today?
Because it is bullshit. Are you so arrogant you assume everything you do will meet the standards of future generations?
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 05:21:46 pm
Because it is bullshit.
That's not an argument.
Quote
Are you so arrogant you assume everything you do will meet the standards of future generations?
No, but so what?
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 05:28:55 pm
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 06:07:28 pm
That's not an argument.Yes it is.
Quote
No, but so what?
Yes you are.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2022, 06:24:32 pm
By "wokeness", do you mean "an awareness of inequality and injustice"?
The actual definition of wokeness is seeing identity politics in absolutely everything and getting triggered or feeling guilty when whites and/or males make up a larger % in something than the general population and then doing dumb cringe racist and sexist things to "fix" it.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2022, 06:30:03 pm
"Says here he pretended to be Black online and made super racist jokes about Chinese people's names."
That stuff really triggered you huh? At what age did you grow a giant ****? 100% honest I picture you as a woman in my head.
If you want some balls you can have some of mine. I have 4.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 06:34:44 pm
Yes it is.
Lol pathetic.
Quote
Yes you are.
No, I’ll be dead why would I care?
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 06:38:28 pm
That stuff really triggered you huh? At what age did you grow a giant ****? 100% honest I picture you as a woman in my head.
If you want some balls you can have some of mine. I have 4.
Yes I’m triggered by the cringeworthy performance of a 50 something man acting like a particularly unsophisticated 14 year old. You got me ya fuckin loser.
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 06:40:16 pm
No, I’ll be dead why would I care?
That statement pretty much says yes.
Post by: Black Dog on December 14, 2022, 06:45:58 pm
That statement pretty much says yes.
Yeah you got me I’m fuckin perfect and I’ll be so mad when people want to take down my statue a hundred years after my death. Do you even think this stuff through at all?
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2022, 07:06:18 pm
Yeah you got me I’m fuckin perfect and I’ll be so mad when people want to take down my statue a hundred years after my death. Do you even think this stuff through at all?
I do. All that will be left of you is other people's memories.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2022, 07:13:18 pm
Yeah you got me I’m fuckin perfect and I’ll be so mad when people want to take down my statue a hundred years after my death. Do you even think this stuff through at all?
I'm chiseling a statue of a woman yelling at her computer from her basement lazy boy as we speak.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 14, 2022, 08:05:45 pm
I'm chiseling a statue of a woman yelling at her computer from her basement lazy boy as we speak.This wins the internet today! 😂😂😂
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 11:32:10 am
I do. All that will be left of you is other people's memories.
Yeah same goes for you, except you’ll be dead and forgotten much sooner. None of this has fuckall to do with the subject.
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 11:33:09 am
I'm chiseling a statue of a woman yelling at her computer from her basement lazy boy as we speak.
It’s funny that you’re such a piece of crap that you think calling someone a woman is a massive insult.
Post by: wilber on December 15, 2022, 01:11:28 pm
Yeah same goes for you, except you’ll be dead and forgotten much sooner. None of this has fuckall to do with the subject.
You really are that arrogant the only narrative that matters is yours. It is the essence of this subject.
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 02:00:18 pm
You really are that arrogant the only narrative that matters is yours. It is the essence of this subject.
No, the subject is how to handle problematic figures of the past, you are re-directing your focus to me because you can't even answer the question of why you have an issue with judging historical figures by the standards of today.
Post by: wilber on December 15, 2022, 02:22:44 pm
No, the subject is how to handle problematic figures of the past, you are re-directing your focus to me because you can't even answer the question of why you have an issue with judging historical figures by the standards of today.
It should be obvious, they don't live today. Even then, you should be judging the whole person, not just the parts you don't like.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 15, 2022, 02:26:59 pm
It should be obvious, they don't live today. Even then, you should be judging the whole person, not just the parts you don't like.Quite right. They tend to have complex and complicated pasts, with a mixture of good and bad.
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 02:37:03 pm
It should be obvious, they don't live today.
Again, there's a big difference between "this person held beliefs that, while objectionable today, were commonplace at the time" and "this person's beliefs motivated them to commit horrible atrocities." For example, what JAM thought about Indigenous people is of less concern than what he actually did to them.
Quote
Even then, you should be judging the whole person, not just the parts you don't like.
You know, it's almost certainly true that the protests around some of these statues have made more people aware of the people they represent than the statues themselves ever did.
Post by: wilber on December 15, 2022, 04:59:55 pm
Again, there's a big difference between "this person held beliefs that, while objectionable today, were commonplace at the time" and "this person's beliefs motivated them to commit horrible atrocities." For example, what JAM thought about Indigenous people is of less concern than what he actually did to them.
They were acting according to the mores of the day. The opposition Liberals didn't think he was being severe enough.
Quote
You know, it's almost certainly true that the protests around some of these statues have made more people aware of the people they represent than the statues themselves ever did.
Are they or are they just being made aware of your and other SJW narratives?
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 06:03:39 pm
They were acting according to the mores of the day. The opposition Liberals didn't think he was being severe enough.
Starving humans is wrong in any era.
Quote
Are they or are they just being made aware of your and other SJW narratives?
Funny that you think some historical facts are actually "SJW narratives."
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 15, 2022, 06:45:12 pm
It’s funny that you’re such a piece of crap that you think calling someone a woman is a massive insult.
Actually i'm calling you a wuss. Grab some supplements to fix your T-levels FFS. Are you even capable of b0ners anymore?
I'm actually trying to help you, because somebody at some point obviously cut your balls off and locked them away in a safe with Trudeau's and most of Hollywood. I'm giving you the combo to open the safe but you just don't want to turn the dial. You lead a horse to water...
Post by: wilber on December 15, 2022, 07:41:59 pm
Funny that you think some historical facts are actually "SJW narratives."
Yes if they are selected to sell a particular narrative.
Quote
Starving humans is wrong in any era.
Yet you ignore the fact it was popular at the time. No only did the opposition support it, MacDonald continued to be re elected with several more majorities.
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 07:45:44 pm
Actually i'm calling you a wuss. Grab some supplements to fix your T-levels FFS. Are you even capable of b0ners anymore?
I'm actually trying to help you, because somebody at some point obviously cut your balls off and locked them away in a safe with Trudeau's and most of Hollywood. I'm giving you the combo to open the safe but you just don't want to turn the dial. You lead a horse to water...
Imagine being a middle aged Jordan Peterson fanboy and impugning someone else’s masculinity, like look in the mirror you fuckin wet loser.
Post by: Black Dog on December 15, 2022, 07:47:10 pm
Yes if they are selected to sell a particular narrative.
What narrative?
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Yet you ignore the fact it was popular at the time
So were human sacrifices and slavery at one point.
Post by: wilber on December 15, 2022, 08:47:52 pm
What narrative?Only talking about the bad stuff.
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So were human sacrifices and slavery at one point.
Exactly, yet you are so sanctimonious you believe you would have been different if you lived back then.
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2022, 09:48:46 am
Only talking about the bad stuff.
As opposed to your narrative of only talking about the good stuff?
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Exactly, yet you are so sanctimonious you believe you would have been different if you lived back then.
The point here is whether or not we the living can judge people in the past who were just living by the standards of the day; by your logic we cannot make moral judgements about "slavery and human sacrifice are wrong" because those people back then just didn't know better. Which begs the question: how is it that we ever made progress on anything if everyone back in the day believed the same things?
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2022, 10:01:01 am
As opposed to your narrative of only talking about the good stuff?
That's not my narrative at all. Just take into account the whole person, not just cherry pick the ones you want. It's called objectivity.
MacDonald and his generation did some bad stuff, no question. They also did some very good stuff and gave us the country we now enjoy.
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The point here is whether or not we the living can judge people in the past who were just living by the standards of the day; by your logic we cannot make moral judgements about "slavery and human sacrifice are wrong" because those people back then just didn't know better. Which begs the question: how is it that we ever made progress on anything if everyone back in the day believed the same things?
They lived according to their time as we are ours. I imagine future generations will rake us over the coals for many things because their standards will be different.
Not you of course.
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2022, 10:39:00 am
That's not my narrative at all. Just take into account the whole person, not just cherry pick the ones you want. It's called objectivity.
MacDonald and his generation did some bad stuff, no question. They also did some very good stuff and gave us the country we now enjoy.
Who is denying any of this? Seems to me you're not engaging with the actual argument at all.
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They lived according to their time as we are ours. I imagine future generations will rake us over the coals for many things because their standards will be different.
And they will be right to do so unless you believe morality is contingent upon the popularity of one's beliefs.
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2022, 10:58:22 am
Who is denying any of this? Seems to me you're not engaging with the actual argument at all.
You are, you want to destroy something without it being replaced by anything else. You just want it to disappear.
I think discussing these people, their good and bad is more important. That's why I like your idea of a QR code on statues that will lead people learn more about them.
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And they will be right to do so unless you believe morality is contingent upon the popularity of one's beliefs.
Morality is what society says it is at any point in time. Our morality is just based on more hindsight.
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2022, 11:06:02 am
You are, you want to destroy something without it being replaced by anything else. You just want it to disappear.
We're talking about statues. Statues. Not the historical record. Statues that only celebrate the good.
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Morality is what society says it is at any point in time. Our morality is just based on more hindsight.
So you are a moral relativist.
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2022, 11:28:55 am
We're talking about statues. Statues. Not the historical record. Statues that only celebrate the good.
They can describe whatever you want depending on how they are presented.
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So you are a moral relativist.
No, I'm a realist. People of 150 years ago cannot be expected to have lived by our moral code. They had their own which was just as valid to them as ours is to us.
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2022, 11:38:15 am
They can describe whatever you want depending on how they are presented.
Are there a lot of JAM statues out there depicting him taking food away from a starving Indigenous child or are they mostly hagiographic in nature?
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No, I'm a realist. People of 150 years ago cannot be expected to have lived by our moral code. They had their own which was just as valid to them as ours is to us.
That's relativism, you're describing relativism.
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2022, 06:15:16 pm
Are there a lot of JAM statues out there depicting him taking food away from a starving Indigenous child or are they mostly hagiographic in nature?
Statues don't show him doing anything. Fill in your own blanks.
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That's relativism, you're describing relativism.
I am describing reality.
Post by: guest18 on December 16, 2022, 06:24:38 pm
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 16, 2022, 07:11:23 pm
Stalin was a key ally in a justifiable war. Why no statues?There’s plenty in Russia. They don’t seem to care about his past.
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2022, 07:33:54 pm
Stalin was a key ally in a justifiable war. Why no statues?
Ask Russians.
Post by: guest18 on December 16, 2022, 07:45:37 pm
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2022, 09:05:36 am
But Quebec City has a statue of FDR and Churchill and totally ghosted Stalin. It's like they chose not to commemorate him too. Not sure if that's rewriting history.
Why would we put up a statue to Stalin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouzenko_Affair
Post by: guest18 on December 17, 2022, 09:23:23 am
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 19, 2022, 03:06:37 pm
Exactly.
Your point seems to have gone right over their heads….
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 19, 2022, 06:37:41 pm
Your point seems to have gone right over their heads….
I'm not involved in this particular discussion on statues. But this comment adds nothing of substance to the debate and its purpose is to provide a drive-by insult to those you disagree with.
I have appropriately given this post a drive-by "dumb" tag for the purpose of irony.
Post by: Black Dog on December 21, 2022, 10:57:11 am
Statues don't show him doing anything. Fill in your own blanks.
Statues tend to depict their subjects in authoritative/triumphant poses from which the viewer can glean that they are gazing upon a Great Man. They are not blank slates.
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I am describing reality.
No, describing reality would be a simple statement about how people 150 years ago had different value systems than we do today, but you take things a step further into moral relativism by stating that we cannot judge them on that basis. I say we can and should because progress is only made by reassessing the value systems of the past.
Post by: Black Dog on December 21, 2022, 10:59:55 am
Why would we put up a statue to Stalin?
Because he saved the world from Nazism.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouzenko_Affair
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Gouzenko's information, prior to the Commission, led to a sweeping investigation and arrests under the War Measures Act of 21 Canadians, along with 11 convictions.[7] Among them was the Labor-Progressive Party Member of Parliament for Cartier, Fred Rose, the only Communist ever elected to Parliament.[7] Other notable people among those accused of passing over secrets were Canadian Army Captain Gordon Lunan, and Sam Carr, a senior organizer of the Labor-Progressive Party.
The proceedings of the Commission have been placed alongside the October Crisis of 1970 as the most extensive abuse of individual rights in Canadian history during peacetime. The controversy surrounding the Gouzenko Affair ultimately led to the formation of several civil liberties organizations.
...
The impact of the Kellock–Taschereau Commission was far-reaching, first because people implicated in Gouzenko's documents were secretly arrested and denied legal advice, under emergency wartime regulations, and an "Emergency Committee for Civil Rights" assembled to defend them. Executive members included C.B. Macpherson, Leopold Infeld, and A.Y. Jackson. Their advertisement in the Toronto Star said that the Commission endangered the "basic rights of Canadians" and did "violence to the rights of free men." They compared the Kellock–Taschereau Commission to the trial of Lt.-Col. John Lilburne during the English Civil War of 1649, stating "the methods of the Commission are not new. They were used against Englishmen in 1649 and against Canadians in 1946.
(https://media.tenor.com/2-5XPoT_7esAAAAC/are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif)
Post by: wilber on December 21, 2022, 08:36:25 pm
Because he saved the world from Nazism.
(https://media.tenor.com/2-5XPoT_7esAAAAC/are-we-the-baddies-bad.gif)
No he didn't, you should learn what he actually did.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 21, 2022, 09:36:24 pm
No he didn't, you should learn what he actually did.Exactly. And then there was that whole Cold War thing too.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 21, 2022, 10:02:54 pm
But Quebec City has a statue of FDR and Churchill and totally ghosted Stalin. It's like they chose not to commemorate him too. Not sure if that's rewriting history.
Stalin was an enemy of Canada and its allies and was a monster. He didn't fight Nazis to help westerners in any way, nor did he care. He had a common enemy with western leaders so they cooperated during the war for common interests.
Stalin also purposefully starved Ukrainians as a form of punishment. Churchill didn't do that. He also sent India food, though some argue he was slow to respond and realize the severity of the food shortages. A reason was the country was fighting WWII at the time and sometimes didn't feel shipping vessels could be spared, like in 1944 when the DDay invasion was ramping up etc. He held some ignorant racist views, and his domestic policies were unpopular probably because he was an upper class conservative at a time when social aid was needed for post-war recovery. He's still a great war leader.
Post by: Black Dog on December 21, 2022, 11:51:00 pm
No he didn't, you should learn what he actually did.
The Soviet Union spilled the blood to defeat the Nazis the western Allies would and could not. Cope.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 22, 2022, 08:50:26 am
Stalin was an enemy of Canada and its allies and was a monster. He didn't fight Nazis to help westerners in any way, nor did he care. He had a common enemy with western leaders so they cooperated during the war for common interests.Apparently that's on par with somebody in the 1700s or 1800s who was prejudice. There's no context with wokies.
Stalin also purposefully starved Ukrainians as a form of punishment. Churchill didn't do that. He also sent India food, though some argue he was slow to respond and realize the severity of the food shortages. A reason was the country was fighting WWII at the time and sometimes didn't feel shipping vessels could be spared, like in 1944 when the DDay invasion was ramping up etc. He held some ignorant racist views, and his domestic policies were unpopular probably because he was an upper class conservative at a time when social aid was needed for post-war recovery. He's still a great war leader.
Post by: guest18 on December 22, 2022, 08:56:45 am
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2022, 10:58:11 am
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Winston Churchill ranks as one of the founders of the welfare state. With Herbert Asquith and David Lloyd George, he was the principal driving force behind the Liberal Party's welfare reforms of 1908–1911. At the Board of Trade, he pioneered measures to reduce poverty and unemployment through state intervention in the labour market. In 1909, he toured Britain campaigning for the ‘People's Budget’ and its radical proposals for the taxation of wealth. At the Home Office, his penal reforms as well as his measures to improve working conditions in shops and coal-mines were reflections of a continuing drive for social reform that was cut short by his transfer, in 1911, to the Admiralty. In the course of a lifetime in party politics, Churchill often touched on social questions, and there were other phases of his career in which he bore some responsibility for the development of social policy.
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2022, 11:16:40 am
The Soviet Union spilled the blood to defeat the Nazis the western Allies would and could not. Cope.
Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Germany and occupied a large part of Poland after the Germans invaded. Britain had been fighting Hitler for 2 1/2 years, over a year on its own before Russia was drawn in. Churchill repeatedly warned Stalin about the impending invasion but couldn't reveal that his source was Enigma. He was repeatedly ignored. Stalin had no choice but to fight Hitler because he was invaded, just like Ukraine. His purges had resulted in the elimination of a large portion of competent officers and he actually panicked and was going to abandon Moscow. The western allies were totally incapable of invading France until 1944 and thousands of allied sailors died in Arctic waters delivering munitions to Murmansk and Archangel. They were also fighting Japan in the Pacific and South East Asia from late 1941, Russia was not.
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2022, 01:42:41 pm
Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Germany and occupied a large part of Poland after the Germans invaded. Britain had been fighting Hitler for 2 1/2 years, over a year on its own before Russia was drawn in. Churchill repeatedly warned Stalin about the impending invasion but couldn't reveal that his source was Enigma. He was repeatedly ignored. Stalin had no choice but to fight Hitler because he was invaded, just like Ukraine. His purges had resulted in the elimination of a large portion of competent officers and he actually panicked and was going to abandon Moscow. The western allies were totally incapable of invading France until 1944 and thousands of allied sailors died in Arctic waters delivering munitions to Murmansk and Archangel. They were also fighting Japan in the Pacific and South East Asia from late 1941, Russia was not.
None of this changes the fact that the war would not have been won without the contributions of the USSR under Stalin. 27 million Soviet soldiers and citizens died fighting the Nazis, more than all the other western Allies combined.
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2022, 02:32:13 pm
None of this changes the fact that the war would not have been won without the contributions of the USSR under Stalin. 27 million Soviet soldiers and citizens died fighting the Nazis, more than all the other western Allies combined.
No one disputes that. Russia would have most certainly lost if Germany wasn't fighting on two fronts. The Soviet people defeated Hitler, not Stalin just as it will be the Ukrainian people who will defeat Putin. It should be obvious why we don't have a statue of Stalin. A: He was not a Canadian. B: He was a monster who killed more of his people than the Germans.
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2022, 03:06:59 pm
No one disputes that. Russia would have most certainly lost if Germany wasn't fighting on two fronts. The Soviet people defeated Hitler, not Stalin just as it will be the Ukrainian people who will defeat Putin. It should be obvious why we don't have a statue of Stalin. A: He was not a Canadian. B: He was a monster who killed more of his people than the Germans.
"Not being Canadian" is a weird criteria given we have statues of various non Canadians throughout the country, including Churchill. As for the being a monster part, isn't your argument that we shouldn't balk at statues of people who had complicated or problematic histories?
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2022, 06:10:34 pm
"Not being Canadian" is a weird criteria given we have statues of various non Canadians throughout the country, including Churchill. As for the being a monster part, isn't your argument that we shouldn't balk at statues of people who had complicated or problematic histories?
Stalin did nothing for this country, it was just a case of having a mutual enemy. As Churchill said about Stalin
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If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.
Post by: After 9 years of Trudeau Shady on December 22, 2022, 06:15:56 pm
Stalin did nothing for this country, it was just a case of having a mutual enemy. As Churchill said about StalinIt’s also not surprising to have a Churchill statue considering Canada’s connection to England and the monarchy.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 22, 2022, 08:05:58 pm
"Not being Canadian" is a weird criteria given we have statues of various non Canadians throughout the country, including Churchill. As for the being a monster part, isn't your argument that we shouldn't balk at statues of people who had complicated or problematic histories?
Comparing Stalin to Churchill and Sir John is stupid. Stalin has no redeemable qualities.
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2022, 08:08:00 pm
Comparing Stalin to Churchill and Sir John is stupid. Stalin has no redeemable qualities.
Well it's a good thing I didn't do that.
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 22, 2022, 08:21:39 pm
Well it's a good thing I didn't do that.
Ok so we can stop asking why Stalin doesn't have a statue and that he isn't comparable to Churchill or Sir John A Mac
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2022, 08:42:59 pm
Ok so we can stop asking why Stalin doesn't have a statue and that he isn't comparable to Churchill or Sir John A Mac
"As for the being a monster part, isn't your argument that we shouldn't balk at statues of people who had complicated or problematic histories?"
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 22, 2022, 09:30:41 pm
"As for the being a monster part, isn't your argument that we shouldn't balk at statues of people who had complicated or problematic histories?"
It’s like you have to use small words for them to understand the point…
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 22, 2022, 11:54:58 pm
It’s like you have to use small words for them to understand the point…
Thanks for trolling again!