Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: eyeball on August 14, 2021, 09:26:26 pm

Title: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 14, 2021, 09:26:26 pm
Who didn't see this military and human rights debacle coming 20 years ago? Warhacks can be as hopelessly wooly-headed as any bleeding heart when it comes to splaining why we needed to be in Afghanistan. The reasons changed like the seasons but more often than not they usually focused on our need to help Afghan school girls. That being the case I said, some 10 years ago, every returning empty Canadian military transport plane should have been stuffed with Afghan school girls.

Of course that's when the bleeding hearts switched to being wooly-headed as it was explained we wouldn't need to because we went to win, not run away when the going got tough.  Sure...hows that working out btw? And no, I don't take any joy in being right. I'm as ashamed as anyone about how many school girls will likely die as a result of our interference in Afghanistan's affairs.

It should have been Saudi Arabia that was invaded in retaliation for what happened on 9/11. There wasn't a single Afghan amongst the hijackers.

If at first you don't succeed then try try again I was always told.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: bcsapper on August 14, 2021, 10:40:18 pm
Who didn't see this military and human rights debacle coming 20 years ago? Warhacks can be as hopelessly wooly-headed as any bleeding heart when it comes to splaining why we needed to be in Afghanistan. The reasons changed like the seasons but more often than not they usually focused on our need to help Afghan school girls. That being the case I said, some 10 years ago, every returning empty Canadian military transport plane should have been stuffed with Afghan school girls.

Of course that's when the bleeding hearts switched to being wooly-headed as it was explained we wouldn't need to because we went to win, not run away when the going got tough.  Sure...hows that working out btw? And no, I don't take any joy in being right. I'm as ashamed as anyone about how many school girls will likely die as a result of our interference in Afghanistan's affairs.

It should have been Saudi Arabia that was invaded in retaliation for what happened on 9/11. There wasn't a single Afghan amongst the hijackers.

If at first you don't succeed then try try again I was always told.

The Taliban could have just handed over Bin Laden to the US.  That would have saved a lot of time and effort.  And lives.  All those schoolgirls would be fine now. 

You know, they don't have to kill them.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 14, 2021, 11:14:11 pm
20 years of war accomplished….  Nada.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: BC_cheque on August 15, 2021, 04:25:10 pm
Iraq war was so bad that to show yourself a moderate, you had to compare it to Afghanistan where there was at least a bit of legitimacy.  I thought Afghanistan was a bad idea from the start, long before it was cool to say so out loud.

Germany and Japan turned into examples of successful nation building but I think it's high time to accept that those two were the exceptions to the rule and Africa, Middle East and South America are better examples of meddling in other nations.

Will we ever learn?  I doubt it, eurocentrism has no limits in its arrogance. 
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: BC_cheque on August 15, 2021, 04:26:43 pm
The Taliban could have just handed over Bin Laden to the US.  That would have saved a lot of time and effort.  And lives.  All those schoolgirls would be fine now. 

You know, they don't have to kill them.


Thing is, we know they suck.  Nobody ever argued otherwise.

The idea that we can turn them into something else through war and occupation is where the disagreements arise.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: bcsapper on August 15, 2021, 04:41:59 pm

Thing is, we know they suck.  Nobody ever argued otherwise.

The idea that we can turn them into something else through war and occupation is where the disagreements arise.

Yeah, I would have just killed them all and put the women in charge.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: BC_cheque on August 15, 2021, 04:43:33 pm
I like your approach.  My heart breaks for Afghanistan. 
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: bcsapper on August 15, 2021, 04:58:01 pm
Iraq war was so bad that to show yourself a moderate, you had to compare it to Afghanistan where there was at least a bit of legitimacy.  I thought Afghanistan was a bad idea from the start, long before it was cool to say so out loud.

Germany and Japan turned into examples of successful nation building but I think it's high time to accept that those two were the exceptions to the rule and Africa, Middle East and South America are better examples of meddling in other nations.

Will we ever learn?  I doubt it, eurocentrism has no limits in its arrogance.

The thing about Germany and Japan is that they were the losers in the last real war we had.  An aggressor leaving his country to attack other countries, and finally being beaten back to surrender by every means possible.  Including nuclear weapons.  There had to be nation building because there was nothing left of the previous nations.

Since then the wars we have fought have all been to prevent something from happening.  A rise in Communism, more Islamic terrorism, etc.  If you are just going to go into someone's country and fight the war there, you really don't stand a chance.  No way of telling friend from foe, no way of hurting the enemy without possibly hurting a friend.  Fighting guerillas on their turf, according to their timelines but unable to fight under their rules.  You're right.  There is an arrogance there that should have been beaten out of western military leaders after Vietnam.

Winning hearts and minds?  Give me a break.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Boges on August 16, 2021, 10:10:38 am
Certain objectives were met.

Al Qaeda isn't a thing anymore. In fact, who really fears Fundamentalist Islam right now? Western Right-Wingers are the bigger threat TBH.

That being said, If I was an Afghanistan vet, it would feel like my sacrifices were for nothing. I can imagine a WW1 vet feeling the same way as Blitzkreig steamed across Western Europe.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 16, 2021, 09:19:05 pm
The Taliban now controls American bases with probably hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons that were given to the Afghan government. 

Americans armed an Islamic extremist government that will be bent on destroying opposition within their country and will be able to do so handily with all the shiny armaments!
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Boges on August 17, 2021, 08:33:16 am
The Taliban now controls American bases with probably hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons that were given to the Afghan government. 

Americans armed an Islamic extremist government that will be bent on destroying opposition within their country and will be able to do so handily with all the shiny armaments!

For the second time.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 17, 2021, 10:52:11 am
Perhaps there's a little room for some benefit of doubt.

Quote
By all accounts, the mostly young men had the hallmarks of the same Taliban of 1996, traditional clothes, beards, kohl-rimmed eyes and guns at their side.

Taliban fighters with smartphones

But there was one glaring difference between these men and their predecessors, each held a smartphone and was busy taking selfies with murals of the nation’s one-hundredth independence celebration behind them.

Al Jazeera English: Kabul near standstill on day one of the Taliban’s ‘Emirate’.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/16/kabul-near-standstill-on-day-one-the-talibans-emirate

I guess it's possible we've been conditioned to believe we'd be seeing images similar to what occurred under ISIS, mass executions and public beheadings, but perhaps not. Maybe the worst for Afghanistan is actually behind it.

Notwithstanding the possibility China takes a crack at the Graveyard of Empires.

Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Boges on August 17, 2021, 12:33:13 pm
This group would appreciate this.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: MH on August 17, 2021, 02:22:59 pm
This group would appreciate this.

Also a fitting nail in the coffin of the non-Tebow NFL thread.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: wilber on August 17, 2021, 08:12:27 pm
The ironic thing about the Graveyard of Empires is none of the empires wanted the place. The Brits only went there to keep the Russians out and the Russians only went there to keep the Americans out.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 24, 2021, 08:13:22 pm
Quote
Toronto Sun: Canadians left to fend for themselves in Taliban-controlled Kabul as U.S. troops again turn away evacuees.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadians-left-to-fend-for-themselves-in-taliban-controlled-kabul-as-u-s-troops-again-turn-away-evacuees

Yes it sucks that Canada can't pony up the time or resources to be a little less useless in this 'mission' but what part of 'working with our allies' that fricken Biden is often yacking about didn't filter down to the clueless assholes on the ground that are carrying out this evacuation?

Suddenly its every ally for themselves? Think we'll recall that next time?
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 24, 2021, 09:27:04 pm
https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadians-left-to-fend-for-themselves-in-taliban-controlled-kabul-as-u-s-troops-again-turn-away-evacuees

Yes it sucks that Canada can't pony up the time or resources to be a little less useless in this 'mission' but what part of 'working with our allies' that fricken Biden is often yacking about didn't filter down to the clueless assholes on the ground that are carrying out this evacuation?

Suddenly its every ally for themselves? Think we'll recall that next time?

Canada should have cut and run long ago.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 24, 2021, 11:14:04 pm
Canada should have cut and run long ago.

If we do have any soldiers there i think thats pretty disgraceful on our part.

I feel really bad for the Afghans and Biden admin screwed their exit strategy up royally, but I also think anyone with Canadian or American citizenship choosing to live there instead of Canada/America is risking trouble by default.  Still have a duty to get them out of there though.

Another win for the stupidity that is dual citizenship.

Let's hope there's no civil war, the country stabilizes, and the Taliban has mellowed with time.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: MH on August 27, 2021, 09:54:47 am
Haven't read this, it's from an NPR journalist

https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2021, 12:24:52 pm
Yes it sucks that Canada can't pony up the time or resources to be a little less useless in this 'mission' but what part of 'working with our allies' that fricken Biden is often yacking about didn't filter down to the clueless assholes on the ground that are carrying out this evacuation?

reputable journalism - a growing oxymoron, particularly highlighted on the Afghan international front. That coupled with the penchant for media outlets to simply syndicate articles presents ongoing opportunities for weak/lame-azzed and outright wrong information to prevail. Ms. Garossino writing in the National Observer is said to present a more accurate/balanced account of what actually happened - with an emphasis on operational aspects and outcome/results therein: What you need to know - Canada's Kabul airlift mission (https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/08/28/analysis/what-you-need-know-canadas-kabul-airlift-mission)

Quote
Hearing reports out of Kabul, most Canadians feel shame and disgrace over how poorly we apparently evacuated people on the ground.

A number of these reports, primarily from former foreign correspondent Kevin Newman, claimed that every other country did better than Canada. For instance, according to Newman, while Canada dithered, the French carried out “ballsy” commando operations, rescuing hundreds of evacuees. Twice.

Yet the UK's Sky News, which tracked international numbers, reports that Canada airlifted significantly more evacuees, some 3700, than France’s 2100 (France’s prime minister has since upped their estimate to 2500).

Nor does Newman's claim that every other country did better than Canada hold up.

Only the UK, Germany, Italy and Australia extracted more evacuees than we did, and only Australia and the UK airlifted more per capita of their population. Tellingly, all of them took part in NATO’s 38 nation Resolute Support Mission (RSM), which ran from 2015 through the summer of 2021. Canada, by contrast, has had no military ground operations in Afghanistan since 2014.

In other words, each country that airlifted more evacuees than Canada had better on-the-ground operational capacity, local intelligence, and months to prepare than we did.
.
Before the howls erupt on social media, it's incumbent on us to at least fact-check some of the more inflammatory claims. None of the information was secret.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 28, 2021, 01:19:22 pm
None of the information was secret.

ROTFLMAO
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2021, 01:42:36 pm
geezaz member eyeball! I'm shocked that's your take-away to an article claiming... and showing that several of those misinforming whoppers were not accurate depictions of what Canada did operationally and the related outcomes - shocked I tells ya! The waldo, not being as jaded as you, inferred the 'not secret' pertained to information the journalist referenced in her article - with her highlighted emphasis being, as she stated, "it's incumbent on us to at least fact-check some of the more inflammatory claims".
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 28, 2021, 01:51:27 pm
Aug. 31 was the deadline made by Biden himself because he wanted all the US troops out before the 20th anniversary of 9/11.  It was all a PR move, not a date based on security or safety of withdrawal.  Bad call dude.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 28, 2021, 03:00:39 pm
geezaz member eyeball! I'm shocked that's your take-away to an article claiming... and showing that several of those misinforming whoppers were not accurate depictions of what Canada did operationally and the related outcomes - shocked I tells ya! The waldo, not being as jaded as you, inferred the 'not secret' pertained to information the journalist referenced in her article - with her highlighted emphasis being, as she stated, "it's incumbent on us to at least fact-check some of the more inflammatory claims".
I'm assuming the information she referenced originally came from our government.

I'll need to see a forensic audit of everything the government has on file before I come to any conclusion about it.

Canada should have been stuffing empty transport planes returning from Afghanistan with school girls 15 years ago.

As for reputable journalism, misinformation and Canada's involvement in Afghanistan let's start from before day 1... apparently we went there because Afghanistan is where the terrorists of 9/11 were trained. Lol...

1st of all there wasn't a single Afghan on board any of the planes used as weapons that day and the flight simulators they trained on were in the US not some cave in Afghanistan.

Oh well, I  guess you'll always be stuck between a rock and a stupid place surrounding our country's performance given it was the Liberals that let themselves drag us into this mess.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2021, 10:16:49 pm
I'm assuming the information she referenced originally came from our government.

I'll need to see a forensic audit of everything the government has on file before I come to any conclusion about it.

oh really? And this is you... not concluding?
ROTFLMAO

As for reputable journalism, misinformation and Canada's involvement in Afghanistan let's start from before day 1... apparently we went there because Afghanistan is where the terrorists of 9/11 were trained. Lol...

1st of all there wasn't a single Afghan on board any of the planes used as weapons that day and the flight simulators they trained on were in the US not some cave in Afghanistan.

Oh well, I  guess you'll always be stuck between a rock and a stupid place surrounding our country's performance given it was the Liberals that let themselves drag us into this mess.

way to misinform bro! The Taliban harbouring terrorist groups in Afghanistan (like al-Qaeda... (and various leaders of al-Qaeda, like bin Laden)) was well understood before 9/11. I've never read any reputable source claim the 9/11 terrorists were, as you state, "trained in Afghanistan". There is no disputing that the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were members of al-Qaeda... and that they were led by bin Laden.

as for your perpetual want to forevah slag the Liberal Party... and your claim that, "Canada was dragged into the mess by Liberals", let the waldo clear up your misunderstanding, end your misinformation:

waldo factoids:
=> shortly after the 9/11 attack NATO, following its underlying principle of collective defence, invoked Article 5 (the only time it has ever been invoked to-date) - you know, that lil' ditty that states, that an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies.
=> it was the U.S. and U.K. that initially bombed the Taliban & al Qaeda throughout Afghanistan
=> it was the UN with a progression of 3 Security Council Resolutions interspersed with the Bonn Conference and a retreating Taliban that set the beginnings of ISAF (International Security Assistance Force)... with full command of ISAF ultimately assumed by NATO

with your phrasing, "the Liberals that let themselves drag us into this mess", I'm shocked you would favour rogue nation positioning for Canada over Canada working within the engagement of and under the auspices of the UN and NATO sanctioning - shocked, I tells ya!
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 28, 2021, 11:32:08 pm
There is no disputing that the nineteen 9/11 terrorists were members of al-Qaeda... and that they were led by bin Laden.
Not a single one of them was from Afghanistan and like Bin Laden almost all of them were from Saudi Arabia. BTW the Taliban is actually from Pakistan.

Despite knowing all this decades ago virtually everyone - Dubya, NATO, the Liberals, Canada...everyone, cocked it up,  spectacularly, and it's still being cocked up without missing a beat to this day. Misinformation still starts with the misinformed.

I'm not shocked in the least I tells ya.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 29, 2021, 12:30:09 am
Misinformation still starts with the misinformed.
starts with YOU - good on ya! How unsurprising you're trying to deflect away from your 'Liberals dragging' suggestion... deflect away from the waldo factoids! Again:
with your phrasing, "the Liberals that let themselves drag us into this mess", I'm shocked you would favour rogue nation positioning for Canada over Canada working within the engagement of and under the auspices of the UN and NATO sanctioning - shocked, I tells ya!

Not a single one of them was from Afghanistan and like Bin Laden almost all of them were from Saudi Arabia.
a poor deflection attempt on your part! But c'mon, surely you're not disputing the Taliban safe-harbouring of terrorist groups (like al Qaeda), of al Qaeda leaders (like bin Laden) - surely not! Surely you're not disputing that bin Laden was the leader of the 9/11 terrorist actions, of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists within Afghanistan - surely not!

Despite knowing all this decades ago virtually everyone - Dubya, NATO, the Liberals, Canada...everyone, cocked it up,  spectacularly, and it's still being cocked up without missing a beat to this day.
and this is just another deflection... and distraction from this nonsense you tried to peddle:
As for reputable journalism, misinformation and Canada's involvement in Afghanistan let's start from before day 1... apparently we went there because Afghanistan is where the terrorists of 9/11 were trained. Lol...

1st of all there wasn't a single Afghan on board any of the planes used as weapons that day and the flight simulators they trained on were in the US not some cave in Afghanistan.
as for your lacking specificity summary statement, "the Liberals, Canada...everyone, cocked it up", have a few more:

waldo factoids:
=> Canada's combat mission in Afghanistan ended in 2011; Canada stayed until 2014 training the Afghan National Army and Afghan National Police
=> of Canada's military presence in Afghanistan, the years 2006-to-2014 had governance of Canada and oversight of the 'Afghan mission' by Harper Conservatives... but don't let that stop you from emphasizing, "the Liberals"!

given the misinformation you've spewed in these last posts, what credibility do you have to, without detail/specificity - particularly as pertains to Canada, speak of a, as you stated, "c o c k up by virtually everyone... without missing a beat to this day"?
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 29, 2021, 10:36:50 am
But c'mon, surely you're not disputing the Taliban safe-harbouring of terrorist groups (like al Qaeda), of al Qaeda leaders (like bin Laden) - surely not!
Nor am I ignoring the fact that al Qaeda, the Taliban and bin Laden had more than one patron.


Quote
Surely you're not disputing that bin Laden was the leader of the 9/11 terrorist actions, of the nineteen 9/11 terrorists within Afghanistan - surely not!
No I'm just disputing the notion that  mattered enough to make invading Afghanistan a good idea.



Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 29, 2021, 11:33:33 pm
Nor am I ignoring the fact that al Qaeda, the Taliban and bin Laden had more than one patron.

No I'm just disputing the notion that  mattered enough to make invading Afghanistan a good idea.

yabut, these are new, from you! I don't recall you making these points in any exchange we've had in this thread. In any case, looks like negotiation... uhhh... 'diplomacy' will allow evacuation flights beyond the Aug 31 deadline date - notwithstanding the actions of azzholy ISIS-K! Geezaz what will the lazyazz misinforming media do now?

(https://i.imgur.com/5QI8SCB.png)
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 30, 2021, 09:59:27 am
yabut, these are new, from you! I don't recall you making these points in any exchange we've had in this thread.
Please. We've been knocking around the same similar threads and forums for nearly 15 years and where points like these were common.

Quote
In any case, looks like negotiation... uhhh... 'diplomacy' will allow evacuation flights beyond the Aug 31 deadline date - notwithstanding the actions of azzholy ISIS-K! Geezaz what will the lazyazz misinforming media do now?
Much of it will also try to deflect accountability for having also beat the drums for war and marching headlong into a war doomed to fail with eyes wide open and hand in hand with the politicians.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 30, 2021, 08:56:17 pm
Video came out of a low flying U.S. Blackhawk chopper….   It was the Taliban practising with their new toy….
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: eyeball on August 31, 2021, 02:50:07 pm
Can anyone imagine there'll be a day when a US president is able to say America never should have gone to Afghanistan in the first place?

Doesn't sound like Biden can.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 31, 2021, 08:32:03 pm
Can anyone imagine there'll be a day when a US president is able to say America never should have gone to Afghanistan in the first place?

Doesn't sound like Biden can.

Well if they elected Mike Gravel he might have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtSrmfBHkZQ
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on August 31, 2021, 11:20:46 pm
Can anyone imagine there'll be a day when a US president is able to say America never should have gone to Afghanistan in the first place? Doesn't sound like Biden can.

yabut, you know - fighting them over there instead of over here! Ya ya, hindsight. Of course it was fear that drove the United States - fear of another attack by al-Qaeda, which was then firmly entrenched in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Fear of other possible terrorist attacks. Certainly the U.S. public wanted retribution. Member eyeball, perhaps your hindsight can offer up what the U.S. should have alternatively done in response to the 9/11 attacks - yes? Along with the UN and NATO response sanctioning the ISAF - what should they have also alternatively done?
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 01, 2021, 01:41:54 am
yabut, you know - fighting them over there instead of over here! Ya ya, hindsight. Of course it was fear that drove the United States - fear of another attack by al-Qaeda, which was then firmly entrenched in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Fear of other possible terrorist attacks. Certainly the U.S. public wanted retribution. Member eyeball, perhaps your hindsight can offer up what the U.S. should have alternatively done in response to the 9/11 attacks - yes? Along with the UN and NATO response sanctioning the ISAF - what should they have also alternatively done?

Did the USA need to go to war with Pakistan to go and fetch bin Laden from that country?   They came and went in a few hours.

Are you saying they couldn’t try and get bin Laden without getting into a 20year war in Afghanistan?
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Black Dog on September 01, 2021, 09:59:06 am
yabut, you know - fighting them over there instead of over here! Ya ya, hindsight. Of course it was fear that drove the United States - fear of another attack by al-Qaeda, which was then firmly entrenched in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Fear of other possible terrorist attacks. Certainly the U.S. public wanted retribution. Member eyeball, perhaps your hindsight can offer up what the U.S. should have alternatively done in response to the 9/11 attacks - yes? Along with the UN and NATO response sanctioning the ISAF - what should they have also alternatively done?

Taken the deal when the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden

Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: waldo on September 02, 2021, 02:49:56 am
Taken the deal when the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden

what I read is that early bombing decimated the Taliban, but also pushed al-Qaeda into the myriad of mountainous cave systems... and, of course, at Tora Bora, it is recognized that untrustworthy Afghan 'warlords' helped bin Laden escape - notwithstanding the U.S. reluctance to put 'boots on the ground' to go into the cave systems, instead opting to rely entirely on a continued bombing campaign. It is said doubtful that the Taliban had the means to actually find & deliver bin Laden... even if the U.S. was inclined to negotiate - which it wasn't as it had supposed designs on eliminating "all" al-Qaeda leaders and the assorted terrorist networks.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: segnosaur on September 08, 2021, 10:29:51 am
Taken the deal when the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden
Except of course the Taliban didn't actually offer a deal to "turn over" bin Laden.

Instead, the Taliban said they would turn him over if there was "evidence" of his involvement in the attacks (which of course they could always reject as "not convincing enough"), and that they wouldn't turn him over some other Islamic country rather than the U.S.

From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
Afghanistan's deputy prime minister, Haji Abdul Kabir, told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US. "If the Taliban is given evidence that Osama bin Laden is involved" and the bombing campaign stopped, "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country", Mr Kabir added.

(And keep in mind that, after almost 2 decades, after seeing videos of Bin Laden talking about the attacks, the current leader of the Taliban still claims "Bin Laden didn't do it". So the idea that the Taliban would willingly turn Bin Laden over in 2001 seems like a bit of a pipe dream.)
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: MH on September 08, 2021, 11:47:42 am
Academic briefing us (45 mins) on the divisions in Afghanistan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF3Rkt42wPY&t=2s
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: segnosaur on September 09, 2021, 03:04:51 am
Did the USA need to go to war with Pakistan to go and fetch bin Laden from that country?   They came and went in a few hours.

Are you saying they couldn’t try and get bin Laden without getting into a 20year war in Afghanistan?
A couple of things here...

Bin Laden may have been the primary target, but the initial targeting of Afghanistan involved more than just targeting Bin Laden... it was also about eliminating Al Quaeda's ability to use Afghanistan as a base of operations. If the U.S. had taken out bin Laden but left others to carry on his legacy, it would have been seen as a failure.

Secondly is True that Bin Laden was targeted in Pakistan without "going to war". But they were only able to do that after months/years of intelligence gathering was able to locate him. There is no guarantee that they would have been able to locate Bin Laden in Afghanistan using the same tactics.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 09, 2021, 01:23:45 pm
A couple of things here...

Bin Laden may have been the primary target, but the initial targeting of Afghanistan involved more than just targeting Bin Laden... it was also about eliminating Al Quaeda's ability to use Afghanistan as a base of operations. If the U.S. had taken out bin Laden but left others to carry on his legacy, it would have been seen as a failure.

Secondly is True that Bin Laden was targeted in Pakistan without "going to war". But they were only able to do that after months/years of intelligence gathering was able to locate him. There is no guarantee that they would have been able to locate Bin Laden in Afghanistan using the same tactics.

Fair enough….  It was always going to be a large military response to take out the Al Qaeda.  20 years of war against the Taliban and they just step right back into power was quite something to behold though.

In my opinion, as soon as the USofA decided to attack Iraq, Canada should have pulled out of the war in Afghanistan.  We shouldn’t let our allies wage war without any consequences. 

And, in the end, we did exactly what the old conservative trope was for not leaving…. We cut and ran without succeeding in the mission.

Afghanistan was an abysmal failure almost any way you slice it, other than eliminating Al Qaeda.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: segnosaur on September 09, 2021, 01:41:03 pm
Quote
A couple of things here...

Bin Laden may have been the primary target, but the initial targeting of Afghanistan involved more than just targeting Bin Laden... it was also about eliminating Al Quaeda's ability to use Afghanistan as a base of operations. If the U.S. had taken out bin Laden but left others to carry on his legacy, it would have been seen as a failure.

Secondly is True that Bin Laden was targeted in Pakistan without "going to war". But they were only able to do that after months/years of intelligence gathering was able to locate him. There is no guarantee that they would have been able to locate Bin Laden in Afghanistan using the same tactics.
Fair enough….  It was always going to be a large military response to take out the Al Qaeda.  20 years of war against the Taliban and they just step right back into power was quite something to behold though.
In my opinion... a military response to take out Al Qaeda was necessary under the circumstances.

That said, I do think there are some valid issues to debate... how long should the U.S. have left troops there, could they (meaning both the U.S. and Afghanistan) have done things to stop the Taliban, could the withdrawal been handled better, etc.

The biggest reason for the quick takeover by the Taliban seemed to be corruption and incompetence in the Afghan military.... Troops weren't given the proper support while money ended up getting wasted. Had the front line troops received proper supplies (and troop pay), perhaps they might have been able to hold off the Taliban. But then, there probably was no easy way for the U.S. to fix the issue without being seen as meddling in the internal affairs of Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: segnosaur on September 09, 2021, 05:25:36 pm
Video came out of a low flying U.S. Blackhawk chopper….   It was the Taliban practising with their new toy….
I don't think it will be a major concern.

The U.S. disabled much of the equipment they left behind. Much of the other stuff (like the previously mentioned blackhawk helicopters) need both pilots (many of whom have fled the country) and regular maintenance (something that the taliban probably don't have the expertise to do themselves, and its doubtful other countries will help). So, they will have their toy helicopter for a few months, but will probably eventually it will end up grounded for lack of spare parts.

The U.S. did leave plenty of rifles and other small arms, but they use NATO-caliber ammunition, and when the supply of bullets runs out in Afghanistan, those guns will just be very expensive paperweights.

The Taliban may try to sell some of the equipment abroad (Hey, want a cheap humvee?) but the former Afghan army wasn't exactly given state-of-the-art equipment.
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: MH on September 10, 2021, 08:31:36 am
Over a year old but pertinent to recent events.

Pragmatic internationalism ?  Did anyone here remember the Côte D'ivoir or East Timor actions ?  She makes a good point that boring and successful missions are forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXBssOoVRcI
Title: Re: Afghanistan
Post by: Black Dog on October 20, 2022, 11:25:25 am
Wild story here of a U.S. Marine stealing a baby (https://apnews.com/article/afghan-baby-us-marine-custody-battle-b157557538b84b288a0a8415735e24ab) from Afghanistan.

Quote
This is a story about how one U.S. Marine became fiercely determined to bring home an Afghan war orphan, and praised it as an act of Christian faith to save her. Letters, emails and documents submitted in federal filings show that he used his status in the U.S. Armed Forces, appealed to high-ranking Trump administration officials and turned to small-town courts to adopt the baby, unbeknownst to the Afghan couple raising her 7,000 miles away.