Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Black Dog on May 17, 2021, 01:02:17 pm


Title: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2021, 01:02:17 pm
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/16/more-deaths-gaza-israel-launches-most-intense-raids-yet (http://Gaza death toll nears 200 amid surge of Israeli raids)

If you told me there was a country out there that was bombing civilians, staging ethnic cleansing in its own borders and doing so while its leader was facing trials for bribery, fraud and corruption, I'd say you were talking about a real banana republic and I'd be right.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 17, 2021, 06:02:15 pm
It's become customary to kill a bunch of Palestinians every few years for fighting against land left, but this latest seems to be more of a wag the dog situation for Netanyahu. 
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 17, 2021, 08:58:43 pm
It's become customary to kill a bunch of Palestinians every few years for fighting against land left, but this latest seems to be more of a wag the dog situation for Netanyahu.

Agreed.  Pretty horrifying brand of cynicism when you can stoke up support for yourself by initiating a fresh conflict and killing a few hundred people.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2021, 10:55:54 pm
It's become customary to kill a bunch of Palestinians every few years for fighting against land left, but this latest seems to be more of a wag the dog situation for Netanyahu.

What's really interesting is seeing how the usual Hasbara bullshit from Israel and its proxies isn't really landing anymore: mass demonstrations in cities across the world, social media tides seem solidly in the pro-Palestine camp. I wonder if the BLM protests have changed the way people look at oppression and settler colonialism outside of our own context.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: waldo on May 17, 2021, 11:36:34 pm
short HBO segment from John Oliver... states Israel is committing a 'war crime' (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1394163428747534338/pu/vid/1280x720/j3i71K0mQDO0Ybm5.mp4?tag=12)
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 06:12:23 am
It strikes me that the world should put a time limit on these two reaching a Peace agreement.  It's been over 50 years since the 1967 war
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2021, 09:55:02 am
short HBO segment from John Oliver... states Israel is committing a 'war crime' (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1394163428747534338/pu/vid/1280x720/j3i71K0mQDO0Ybm5.mp4?tag=12)

This is what I mean about the tide turning. I can't imagine something like this airing 10, 15 years ago without a massive uproar.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 11:44:17 am
This is what I mean about the tide turning. I can't imagine something like this airing 10, 15 years ago without a massive uproar.

The world is sick of their ****.  If Israel doesn't move this forward without Hammas etc. and take the initiative then the world will start to take Palestine's side more and more.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2021, 12:20:18 pm
This is what I mean about the tide turning. I can't imagine something like this airing 10, 15 years ago without a massive uproar.

As long as Israel has the monetary backing of the USA, they din’t give a **** what protestors across the world might be saying about them.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 12:25:06 pm
As long as Israel has the monetary backing of the USA, they din’t give a **** what protestors across the world might be saying about them.

So American voters decide.... again.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2021, 12:27:25 pm
So American voters decide.... again.

No.  This will not be an election issue.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: waldo on May 18, 2021, 12:39:35 pm
This is what I mean about the tide turning. I can't imagine something like this airing 10, 15 years ago without a massive uproar.

I was going to state something similar... then opted to just include/identify it as HBO sourced; the implication being that should/might give cover to protect Oliver from any 'job threatening' blow-back. And yes, in the early 2000s it was enough for Bill Maher to lose sponsors, then ultimately his 'Politically Incorrect' ABC network show - for objecting to the 911 perpetrators being labelled as cowards... arguing that ''we have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away.''
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Boges on May 18, 2021, 12:51:04 pm
Not that it's a solution to this debate, but does anyone really believe any two-state solution would stop any of this?

The fringes of both sides are hell-bent on the destruction of the other. The leadership there needs to change.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 01:09:27 pm
1. Not that it's a solution to this debate, but does anyone really believe any two-state solution would stop any of this?

2. The fringes of both sides are hell-bent on the destruction of the other. The leadership there needs to change.
1. Presumably there would be buy-in on any solution.

2. Yes,agree with that.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 01:09:59 pm
Yitzhak Rabin was such a leader...
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2021, 02:00:37 pm
Not that it's a solution to this debate, but does anyone really believe any two-state solution would stop any of this?

The fringes of both sides are hell-bent on the destruction of the other. The leadership there needs to change.

The only solution at this stage is the one-state solution, for Israel to become a multi-ethnic, democratic nation with equal rights for all.

One other note: I don't think it's fair to characterize the Israeli belief in their supremacy over the Palestinian people as a fringe one, but one that is baked in.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 02:04:17 pm
The only solution at this stage is the one-state solution, for Israel to become a multi-ethnic, democratic nation with equal rights for all.

One other note: I don't think it's fair to characterize the Israeli belief in their supremacy over the Palestinian people as a fringe one, but one that is baked in.

Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2021, 02:44:11 pm
Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.

Where's Israel going in my scenario?

The two state solution is dead if it ever was even alive to begin with. The de facto annexation of the West Bank was the final nail in the coffin.

Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 03:08:11 pm
1. Where's Israel going in my scenario?

2. The two state solution is dead if it ever was even alive to begin with. The de facto annexation of the West Bank was the final nail in the coffin.
1. It's not really Israel, let's face it.  It's Canada.  (Yes how awful.)

2. It's more realistic than one state though right ?
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2021, 03:19:05 pm
1. It's not really Israel, let's face it.  It's Canada.  (Yes how awful.)

2. It's more realistic than one state though right ?

1. the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Israel is more akin to apartheid-era South Africa. None of this is really relevant.

2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this (https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg)?
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: MH on May 18, 2021, 03:50:47 pm
1. the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Israel is more akin to apartheid-era South Africa. None of this is really relevant.

2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this (https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg)?

1. Hm ? 

2. Well ... one state seems more difficult to me.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2021, 03:53:33 pm
1. Hm ? 

2. Well ... one state seems more difficult to me.

I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2021, 04:36:18 pm
I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.

Both sides of the conflict want to wipe each other out, one side often calling for their extermination...   battling over religious nonsense like little hills where mythical figures did things...  and you think they can be put into a democratic country?  LOL

You’re living in a fantasy world where most people are moderates and it’s just a small fringe element on both sides casing troubles.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 18, 2021, 05:27:28 pm
What's really interesting is seeing how the usual Hasbara bullshit from Israel and its proxies isn't really landing anymore: mass demonstrations in cities across the world, social media tides seem solidly in the pro-Palestine camp. I wonder if the BLM protests have changed the way people look at oppression and settler colonialism outside of our own context.

I'm seeing a lot of Palestinian Lives Matter on twitter as well as references from Jewish Americans to other Jewish Americans about their hypocrisy of having BLM on their profiles without supporting Palestinians.

However, I think equally important is the direction Netanyahu has taken Israel in the last decade and a half.  I know you've mentioned reading Obama's Promised Land so I'm sure you're familiar with it, but the sentiment that seems to be brewing is that the romanticized Israel we all grew up with no longer exists. 

Israel is not defending itself against hostile neighbours, Netanyahu has shifted the country to extreme right wing tribalism and colonialism.  It's difficult for many, as Obama eloquently explains, to reconcile the disparity.

Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 18, 2021, 05:32:26 pm
Well, you are basically saying Israel will go away and Palestinians and Jews will unite.  Noble goal but add a few hundred years to the timeline for this one.

It's the only solution remaining (two-state died a long time ago), but it won't happen unless western countries start to seriously pressure Israel which I don't see happening.

I don't see it happening even in a hundred years tbh.  We are witnessing a great tragedy of ethnic cleansing unfold and nobody will do anything about it because our leaders are scared shitless of Israel.  Just look at John Corbyn and what happens when a politician stands against Israel. 

They have done an incredible job of conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism and nothing kills a career better than being called anti-semite.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 18, 2021, 05:37:00 pm
2. No. it's completely unrealistic. How do you propose to make a functional nation state out of this (https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg)?

You can't.  Sadly, looking at the demographics on that map is also the reason the one-state solution will never exist either.  There would be equal number of Jews and Muslims in Israel and Israel would never accept it.

They will continue the apartheid and land theft until Palestinians leave on their own accord. 

I agree that the situation is much like South Africa and change will only take place when western nations get tough on Israel.  I don't see that happening any time soon though. 

They've stood by this far, I don't see what Israel could possibly do that's worse.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 18, 2021, 05:40:47 pm
I think it's easier to create a single democratic state than try and make a viable state out of a scattering of postage stamp sized parcels of land surrounded by hostile neighbours.

If it were one state then you'd just have the more powerful faction trying to politically dominate the agenda over the less dominant faction, which is exactly what's happening now.  It solves nothing.  They each need their own state to have self-determination.

What is needed is for Netanyahu to eff off with the settlement building and act in good faith.

It becomes complicated because Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians about 15 years ago and they've used it to launch the rocket attacks from among schools and hospitals as human shields.  Then because of that Israel blockades or inspects all the goods coming into Gaza looking for weapons, so Gazans cry foul.

So if you give the West bank back to the Arabs and give them statehood well any independent state needs a military to defend itself, so the possibility of more conflict is there.  And there's groups on both sides that won't accept any less than all of the land for themselves and all the people they don't like GTFO.  It's a giant clusterf***.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2021, 06:14:04 pm
It’s not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I don’t recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous. 
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 18, 2021, 06:53:31 pm
It’s not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I don’t recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous.

And white South Africans didn't have their country handed to them after a holocaust.  They didn't have extremists amongst them that believe there is a Greater South Africa that god has promised them and that they need to evict and ethnically-cleanse the region of black South Africans.

So what?  Things don't have to be 100% similar in order to make comparisons.  There is a dominant group that holds the power and an oppressed group that lives by a different set of standards within the same region.  That's nutshell apartheidism. 

The similarity which is relevant is that the dominant group is not going to just stop on their own accord and goodwill and the only way they will compromise will be through external pressure.

Unlike South Africa, there is an incentive for western nations that stability to the region directly benefits us as well.  The comparison is very sound IMO.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2021, 12:40:37 am
It’s not like S. Africa though...   black S. Africans never wanted the extermination of the white S. Africans.  The political arm of the Palestinians wants the extermination of Jews.  I don’t recall Mandela and his group calling for that.  Never mind the crazy amounts of Holocaust denial by Palestinian groups.

The two are absolutely not analogous.

This conflict has its own context.  In Israel it's more complicated than "colonialism"  Israelis believe the land is their ancestral land, especially after being targeted for racism and extermination.  it's not the same as whitey invading south Africa looking for riches.

The reality is both the palestinians and Israelis have their own victim narratives and neither is really wrong.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 10:35:48 am
Both sides of the conflict want to wipe each other out, one side often calling for their extermination...   battling over religious nonsense like little hills where mythical figures did things...  and you think they can be put into a democratic country?  LOL

You’re living in a fantasy world where most people are moderates and it’s just a small fringe element on both sides casing troubles.

If you remove the material conditions that enable the extremists to thrive, then yeah coexistence is totally possible. Look at Northern Ireland for example.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 10:41:09 am
If it were one state then you'd just have the more powerful faction trying to politically dominate the agenda over the less dominant faction, which is exactly what's happening now.  It solves nothing.  They each need their own state to have self-determination.

Except they would have to do so democratically and not through force.

Quote
It becomes complicated because Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians about 15 years ago and they've used it to launch the rocket attacks from among schools and hospitals as human shields.  Then because of that Israel blockades or inspects all the goods coming into Gaza looking for weapons, so Gazans cry foul.


This is false. Israel blockaded Gaza after Hamas took over, not in response to any violence directed at Israel. They've maintained that blockade since 2007.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 19, 2021, 11:22:03 am
Except they would have to do so democratically and not through force.

This is false. Israel blockaded Gaza after Hamas took over, not in response to any violence directed at Israel. They've maintained that blockade since 2007.

Hamas whose charter states they have a religious duty to kill the Jews.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: waldo on May 19, 2021, 11:52:52 am
Hamas whose charter states they have a religious duty to kill the Jews.

who knew! A distinction between Jew and Zionist {project}...

Hamas 2017 charter:

(https://i.imgur.com/oyDUB2M.png)

what say you Bibi?

Quote from: Bibi Netanyahu PM of Israel
Hamas is attempting to fool the world
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 11:56:51 am
Hamas whose charter states they have a religious duty to kill the Jews.

Hamas, which was created by Israel.

Also Hamas=Palestinians is no more true than Israel=Jews.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 03:06:01 pm
Extremely eye-opening Twitter thread here (https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1394324035417395202?fbclid=IwAR0YUgRT_-7AcmrWvzfEYMyufwd8JKFDUDxT2Elni6Gy9ElKkIbJ_o9z-7E) about U.S. aid to Israel. Pretty wild that a country with crumbling infrastructure, widespread poverty and homelessness, an opioid epidemic and other social ills can blithely send almost $4 BILLION a year to another country to support its domestic arms industry.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: the_squid on May 19, 2021, 03:47:12 pm
Extremely eye-opening Twitter thread here (https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/1394324035417395202?fbclid=IwAR0YUgRT_-7AcmrWvzfEYMyufwd8JKFDUDxT2Elni6Gy9ElKkIbJ_o9z-7E) about U.S. aid to Israel. Pretty wild that a country with crumbling infrastructure, widespread poverty and homelessness, an opioid epidemic and other social ills can blithely send almost $4 BILLION a year to another country to support its domestic arms industry.

Ummm....  you’ve never heard of the “military industrial complex”?   This is the type of **** the USA loves to spend much day on.  Fits their priorities perfectly.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 04:01:30 pm
Ummm....  you’ve never heard of the “military industrial complex”?   This is the type of **** the USA loves to spend much day on.  Fits their priorities perfectly.

Don't be a prick, of course I have. But there's a difference between knowing that the U.S. military is little more than a way to syphon public funds into private hands and knowing the details of how foreign aid to Israel is used.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2021, 05:28:41 pm
Hamas, which was created by Israel.

When did Israel create Hamas?
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 19, 2021, 05:37:10 pm
Ummm....  you’ve never heard of the “military industrial complex”?   This is the type of **** the USA loves to spend much day on.  Fits their priorities perfectly.

The US has major security interests in the region due to oil and the US also has many very wealthy Zionist Jewish citizens who lobby the government, donate to parties, and work in government.  The neocon movement was led by Zionist hawks like Paul Wolfowicz, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMVhb57RqI
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: BC_cheque on May 19, 2021, 07:13:20 pm
The US has major security interests in the region due to oil and the US also has many very wealthy Zionist Jewish citizens who lobby the government, donate to parties, and work in government.  The neocon movement was led by Zionist hawks like Paul Wolfowicz, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, etc

Point that out though and people accuse you of taking a page out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 08:57:03 pm
When did Israel create Hamas?

In the '70s Israel recognized and gave money to Mujama al-Islamiya which was the precursor to Hamas to serve as a counterweight to the secular/socialist PLO/Fatah.
Title: Re: Apartheid state back on its bullsh*t
Post by: Black Dog on May 19, 2021, 09:02:24 pm
Here's (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005) a stomach turning article from the Israeli press that shows the claims that Israel doesn't target civilians and takes great care to minimize casualties is a lie.

Quote
But once the "importance" of a Hamas member is considered high and its residence is defined as a legitimate target for bombing – the “allowable” collateral damage, in other words the number of uninvolved people killed, including children and babies – is very broad.