Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: MH on March 19, 2021, 05:49:59 am


Title: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 05:49:59 am
We are being told not to like art by bad people. 

This article is a good response

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/good-art-by-bad-people-why-it-shouldnt-be-thrown-away/article37006883/

Quote
Good art by bad people: Why it shouldn’t be thrown away by Russell Smith

The great Renaissance sculptor and goldsmith Benvenuto Cellini, creator of Perseus With the Head of Medusa, was a murderer and a rapist. He killed at least two men and was accused by a model of sexually assaulting her. This does not stop me from looking with great amazement and curiosity at the naked and sexual Perseus With the Head of the Medusa. The knowledge of the immorality of the creator does not distract from my enjoyment of his creation; indeed I am made even more curious to know how beauty is perceived by a violent man. I assume that all art is made by people who are pretty bad in one way or another and that I am going to see the world through the prism of their own particular badness. I assume that any good art will be in part about badness.

And I will eagerly look at the work of any tyrant, rapist or murderer for the same reason. If Kim Jong-un wrote a novel I would be first in line for a copy.

Nor is my absorption of these things a question of compartmentalizing, of ignoring or suspending my disgust with an artist's personal behaviour so as to concentrate on the art. I'm watching and reading because I expect art to be about moral dangers in a way that is less didactic than essays are. I expect art to be troubling because I expect people to be troubling. I am prepared to like and dislike something in every work. I can also appreciate the aesthetic genius of a moral monster without feeling that I am becoming inured to monstrosity. Just as I can read Heidegger without becoming a Nazi, I can look at one of Adolf Hitler's juvenile watercolour paintings and appreciate a bit of pink in the sky there, and understand it as a painting of its era and one by a tyrant at the same time. And if I do this and am judged immoral for it, is it because it is bad for just me or bad for society at large?

A moral question arises, to me, only when money is exchanged. Looking is one thing, but what about buying? If I buy the photo of the work of a baby-eater, am I enriching a criminal and therefore perpetuating criminal acts? I really want to roll my eyes at this and say who the hell cares, my essay on it will be more valuable than this indirect complicity – and furthermore, it is easy for me to get a free pirated copy of anything – but okay, I will stop and try to take this scruple seriously.

Here is where we enter the moral quandary that affects the contemporary mass cultural moment. The problem of engaging with art by bad people, it is said, is an economic one. There is Zhu Lu, the Chinese artist who photographed himself eating what was purportedly a human fetus. And then there is Woody Allen. I need to understand the art of both men and so need to look at it. But Zhu Lu and Woody Allen are in fact only distantly analogous because Zhu Lu's art is not commercial. I'm not really supporting Zhu Lu by looking up his pictures on the internet. But it is argued that by paying money to see a film by a still-living man accused of sexually abusing a child, we would be rewarding someone who deserves to be shunned. It is also argued that the culture of movie-making in Hollywood is pervasively sexist and abusive and that contributing to its economic success as a whole is a subtle approval of its tactics. An essayist in The New York Times tweeted that "the critical acclaim and economic clout of the art facilitates the abuse."

A writer in Esquire echoed her, taking an even more puritanical stance. We must stop separating artists from art, argues Tyler Coates, and throw out all the movies made by bad men. There is plenty of art in the world and we would not miss the handful of movies by abusers. He does not extend this demand to the other arts created by bad people (novels by fascists, poems by thieves), so I don't know if we are meant to throw those out too. Coates speaks of movies as art to be "enjoyed" (not precisely the role art plays in my own life), and proposes that we deprive ourselves of the presumed pleasure – a simple pleasure, like ice cream – of the corrupted movies. It will rid ourselves of complicity. It will be as easy as giving up ice cream for lent.

Any Christian will recognize this as a fundamentally religious impulse: The goal is not so much to improve the world as to improve oneself, to keep oneself pure.

I want to take issue with the idea of "enjoying" art as well. Yes, one does enjoy it, sometimes, but that's far from the only reason for art's existence. Art is not ice cream. To consume art is for me as necessary a means of understanding the culture around me as reading the news is; it is necessary and automatic, almost involuntary. It is also frequently unpleasant: Art can be disturbing and noisy and embarrassing and downright awful, and I still feel curious about it. I love the movies of Michael Haneke and Lars von Trier, movies very much about moral cesspits, and I can't say I am experiencing pleasure exactly.

Fictional narratives, good or bad, are a kind of oxygen for my brain. If I were to stop delving into unpleasant, embarrassing or possibly immoral art for any reason, I would feel cut off from my own intellect. I would feel stupid.

I am baffled, genuinely baffled, by the idea that by consuming art one is somehow perpetuating the ideas in it. Do I absorb the values of Nazism by looking at Hitler's watercolours? Do I advance Nazism if I reprint Hitler's watercolours in a history book? And should I feel guilt if I find any of Hitler's watercolours pleasant?

Even if I read a book that is explicitly about child abuse and that appears to be unjudgmental about child abuse (Lolita, say), am I perpetuating it or just trying to understand the deeply bad world? Art can be propagandistic, yes, but I am an adult with a critical faculty, not just a pulsing irrational emotional sensor; I can think and analyze what I read and see.

I get the concern about the financial support of criminals, but that economic question really only applies to living artists and only to certain art forms, and it is such a minor issue to me, such an unavoidable byproduct of the serious and necessary work of understanding the world that I can't really take it seriously. Besides, it is so easily bypassed: If you feel bad about it, just stream a pirated version of the movie for free.

As far as real crime goes, let the police and the courts deal with criminal artists; I have no interest in protecting them. Lock them up as long as you want. I have only a passing interest in the outcomes. That belongs to a different sphere of activity.

I hardly need to begin the list of great artists who committed serious moral offenses. Caravaggio, murderer; Sade, rapist; Egon Schiele, abuser of teenage girls; Ezra Pound, anti-Semite; Jean Genet, thief; Banksy, vandal… I could go on for pages here, ending the list with me and you, hypocrite lecteur, who may not be ourselves utterly unblemished. Eliminate the bad artists from the canon and you might as well eliminate art itself.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 05:58:25 am
Let's adopt Smith's axiom.  Take Woody Allen's exclamation that "the heart wants what it wants" to cover art, and his art as well.

If you want to financially boycott, you can do so.  You can also "steal" movies if you don't want Woody to get $ from watching.

Some other things to add:

1. If the people who OWN the rights feel that they don't want to cash in anymore, due to embarrassment or any other reason then they can do that.

2. We can also express displeasure at "ugliness" in our society, whether it's an ugly building, garbage in the streets, or poor values being displayed.  If you disagree with Cardi B, WAP, low or high hemlines, depiction of LGBT in film, Dixie Chicks, Hustler, public nudity, interracial fraternizing on The Dating Game or in Comic Books, or the flag - PLEASE SAY SO.  The results will come out in the wash of public dialogue.  Most of these things will not be "banned" but you might succeed in getting a content warning, or a brown wrapper being put on it.

3. America and 'the west' are becoming more accepting of identity politics, as hard as it is to believe.  So things are going to change. 

https://www.prri.org/research/americas-growing-support-for-transgender-rights/

4. There is no 'public' that can support an academic-level debate on postmodern themes.  To imagine that there is one single audience for such a debate is folly.  People should be happy that there is a general change for the better and not EXPECT new concepts like invented pronouns to be adopted widely.

[dusts off hands]

We done here ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 09:54:24 am
What if you just think Woody Allen sucks and the fact he's a pervert simply icing on the cake?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 19, 2021, 10:35:03 am
You have my permission to enjoy Woody Allen’s movies with a guilt-free conscience, despite him being a child molester. 
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 11:09:20 am
What if you just think Woody Allen sucks and the fact he's a pervert simply icing on the cake?

I think you are ok.  Annie Hall sucks ?  Sleeper ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 11:09:41 am
You have my permission to enjoy Woody Allen’s movies with a guilt-free conscience, despite him being a child molester.

Do you ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 19, 2021, 11:53:52 am
Do you ?

Do I what?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 12:40:57 pm
Do I what?

Enjoy them ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 19, 2021, 12:43:57 pm
Enjoy them ?

I avoid them like I would Charles Manson’s lovely paintings.

There’s a line I choose not to cross. Child molesters don’t get my support. 
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 01:29:16 pm
I think you are ok.  Annie Hall sucks ?  Sleeper ?

Annie Hall is ok. IDK I think it's hard to enjoy the works of a guy who I've known to be a creep for most of life since he married his daughter.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 01:32:51 pm
To the OP, I find this line particularly egregious:

Quote
Eliminate the bad artists from the canon and you might as well eliminate art itself.

I think this advances a narrative that claims that good art is the domain of bad people and that bad people can be excused for being bad if they are good enough at their art.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 19, 2021, 03:02:41 pm
Totally agree with MH, great post.

We can enjoy a piece of art by a douche, doesn't mean we have to financially support that art.  Or you can if you want I guess.  Capitalism solves this problem.  Capitalism really solves all these problems.  If people like certain cancel culture they'll support those companies that do it, if they don't they will punish companies who partake.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 03:36:05 pm
 
Quote from: the_squid

There’s a line I choose not to cross. Child molesters don’t get my support.

But did you like the art before you decided to pass judgment?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 03:38:37 pm
Annie Hall is ok. IDK I think it's hard to enjoy the works of a guy who I've known to be a creep for most of life since he married his daughter.

So... I'm thinking you avoid looking into the private lives of stars whose work you enjoy ?  Polanski ?   James Franco ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 03:50:42 pm
So... I'm thinking you avoid looking into the private lives of stars whose work you enjoy ?  Polanski ?   James Franco ?

Yes? Contrary to the article in the OP, it's actually not that hard to find good art made by people who aren't creeps!
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 05:24:51 pm
Yes? Contrary to the article in the OP, it's actually not that hard to find good art made by people who aren't creeps!

Very lucky for you to never have to deal with a moral quandry. 
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: bcsapper on March 19, 2021, 07:00:40 pm
Very lucky for you to never have to deal with a moral quandry.

It's an interesting question though.  What does an artist have to do?  I never liked Woody Allen much anyway, so it's no example for me.  But what if I found out Neil Young was a monster?  What would it do to "Like a Hurricane"?  Not much, I think.

But there was a musician a few years back who went to jail for raping babies.  I never heard his music, but if I had, and I had liked it, would I still?  I don't know.

I quite like Hitler's paintings.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2021, 08:13:08 pm
It's an interesting question though.  What does an artist have to do?  I never liked Woody Allen much anyway, so it's no example for me.  But what if I found out Neil Young was a monster?  What would it do to "Like a Hurricane"?  Not much, I think.

But there was a musician a few years back who went to jail for raping babies.  I never heard his music, but if I had, and I had liked it, would I still?  I don't know.

I quite like Hitler's paintings.

Well... the answer is... for me... "I don't know"
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 19, 2021, 10:48:54 pm
I'm fine with a consumer not wanting to support someone financially if they're a douche.  But even people who do bad things are still human beings, and art is an expression of someone's humanity, so I think you can choose to not support them financially while still enjoying their art if you happen to witness it.  It's acceptable for people to be punished for their actions but they shouldn't be hated and written off as human beings.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 20, 2021, 01:14:19 pm
Cancel culture: the attitude that if someone is saying stuff that offends us, we need to find some way to shut them up.

The name "cancel culture" is new, but cancel culture isn't new at all. It's very old, and for most of history has been the domain of conservatives and reactionaries, not progressives.


One recent victim of cancel culture: Alex Jones.  Progressives don't mention him as a victim of cancel culture, because they say cancel culture isn't real.  And conservatives don't mention Jones as a victim of cancel culture, because if they did it would make people say "maybe cancel culture isn't so bad!"  But clearly, Alex Jones has been "cancelled", and it's hard to see any downside to that.  Alex Jones had nothing worthwhile to offer.  His continued presence in the realm of ideas made society objectively worse.   Maybe cancel culture can be good after all.

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on March 20, 2021, 01:28:02 pm
Cancel culture: the attitude that if someone is saying stuff that offends us, we need to find some way to shut them up.

The name "cancel culture" is new, but cancel culture isn't new at all. It's very old, and for most of history has been the domain of conservatives and reactionaries, not progressives.


One recent victim of cancel culture: Alex Jones.  Progressives don't mention him as a victim of cancel culture, because they say cancel culture isn't real.  And conservatives don't mention Jones as a victim of cancel culture, because if they did it would make people say "maybe cancel culture isn't so bad!"  But clearly, Alex Jones has been "cancelled", and it's hard to see any downside to that.  Alex Jones had nothing worthwhile to offer.  His continued presence in the realm of ideas made society objectively worse.   Maybe cancel culture can be good after all.

 -k

It is good to cancel people with extremist and dangerous views who are hurting people. 

The problem becomes when the SJWs (using an example from the left...  my peeps, supposedly) want to cancel anyone who disagrees with them, even when those people have moderate, generally mainstream views that are not harmful.  They forget people are allowed to disagree.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 20, 2021, 05:41:18 pm
One recent victim of cancel culture: Alex Jones.  Progressives don't mention him as a victim of cancel culture, because they say cancel culture isn't real.  And conservatives don't mention Jones as a victim of cancel culture, because if they did it would make people say "maybe cancel culture isn't so bad!"  But clearly, Alex Jones has been "cancelled", and it's hard to see any downside to that.  Alex Jones had nothing worthwhile to offer.  His continued presence in the realm of ideas made society objectively worse.   Maybe cancel culture can be good after all.

Alex Jones is a really stupid human being.  The sad thing is he seems like a lot of these uneducated right-leaning Americans.

The American flag should have Jones' face on it.  Cancel America?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 20, 2021, 05:47:28 pm
It is good to cancel people with extremist and dangerous views who are hurting people. 

The problem becomes when the SJWs (using an example from the left...  my peeps, supposedly) want to cancel anyone who disagrees with them, even when those people have moderate, generally mainstream views that are not harmful.  They forget people are allowed to disagree.

Private companies don't have an obligation to broadcast or support somebody's views/behaviour.  We can all agree or disagree on whether a certain person should be cancelled, but not on the right of companies to cancel them.  I have faith that over time capitalism will tell companies if what they're doing is right or not, so in a way society is self-regulating.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 21, 2021, 09:24:41 am
Shaming people for making unwanted sexual advances seems discriminatory to the unattractive.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on March 21, 2021, 11:56:34 am
It is good to cancel people with extremist and dangerous views who are hurting people. 

The problem becomes when the SJWs (using an example from the left...  my peeps, supposedly) want to cancel anyone who disagrees with them, even when those people have moderate, generally mainstream views that are not harmful.  They forget people are allowed to disagree.

Can you cite any examples of this phenomenon?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 21, 2021, 08:31:35 am
If a publisher decides to stop producing books with racist stereotypes, well sir, you got a cancel culture.

Government passes laws to criminalize protests and protect drivers who run into crowds? No big deal. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/republican-anti-protest-laws.html)

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: cybercoma on April 21, 2021, 08:55:22 am
Can you cite any examples of this phenomenon?
Has anyone checked their local Italian restaurant to see if there's been a special on calamari? Our squid has gone missing.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 21, 2021, 02:55:02 pm
If a publisher decides to stop producing books with racist stereotypes, well sir, you got a cancel culture.

Government passes laws to criminalize protests and protect drivers who run into crowds? No big deal. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/us/politics/republican-anti-protest-laws.html)

I think it's good to convict people who break the law, including rioters/vandals, but I don't know why you'd need new laws about it.  Smashing the window of a business, stealing its contents, and then setting it on fire are already illegal acts not needing new legislation.  Punishing people who do these crimes further by denying access to jobs, student loans etc is just weird and cruel, and isn't going to prevent anything.

The GOP are dumb weirdos.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 03:39:15 pm
There's a woman named Jessica Pin. As a young woman she was permanently harmed during a cosmetic labiaplasty procedure, and she has made it her mission to advocate for better medical literacy about female sexual anatomy.  A few weeks ago she got into trouble on Twitter with the wokies.  They were angry at her for using "female anatomy" to refer to the clitoris and labia minora.  (These are the same kind of people who get mad if you refer to FGM as FGM, and pretty much the same people who said "I Stand With People In Poland!" in regard to Poland's anti-abortion laws.)  So, the wokies started bombarding her with "eat glass, transphobe!", "educate yourself", "drink bleach, TERF!" and so on, even though she had never been part of the "gender wars" and didn't even know what TERF means.  Referring to female anatomy as female is enough to make you a TERF nowadays.  The wokies also bombarded a couple of podcasts that she had been schedule to speak on with accusations of transphobia, and she was dropped.

I'm sure that a small-time figure being dropped from a couple of minor podcasts is not going to keep anybody up at night, but I think it illustrates the problem.   Anybody who isn't a complete moron can recognize that the wokies attacking Ms Pin are deranged fanatical imbeciles, but the problem isn't whether they're right or wrong, it's that the accusation exists.  If you're the operator of one of those podcasts, the danger to you is that the accusation of transphobia is the only thing that anybody hears about. Anybody who bothered to look into the matter would realize that it was a ridiculous controversy, but for most people all they would see is the surface and what you see on the surface is a bunch of reviews accusing them of "hosting a known transphobe".

Efforts to "cancel" JK Rowling or Joe Rogan are doomed to fail because they're big enough that they can simply ignore whatever "consequences" the wokies try to inflict on them. But Jessica Pin and the small-time podcasts she was dropped from aren't in the same position.

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on April 22, 2021, 04:03:45 pm
  A few weeks ago she got into trouble on Twitter with the wokies. 

 

Your problem is that you're trying to criticize a mob.  It's fine to do that but they're teflon.

Have you heard of GLAAD and their campaign against Jesse Singal ?

That is an organization, and I'm surprised you haven't said anything about that situation. 
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 04:06:32 pm
There's a woman named Jessica Pin. As a young woman she was permanently harmed during a cosmetic labiaplasty procedure, and she has made it her mission to advocate for better medical literacy about female sexual anatomy.  A few weeks ago she got into trouble on Twitter with the wokies.  They were angry at her for using "female anatomy" to refer to the clitoris and labia minora.  (These are the same kind of people who get mad if you refer to FGM as FGM, and pretty much the same people who said "I Stand With People In Poland!" in regard to Poland's anti-abortion laws.)  So, the wokies started bombarding her with "eat glass, transphobe!", "educate yourself", "drink bleach, TERF!" and so on, even though she had never been part of the "gender wars" and didn't even know what TERF means.  Referring to female anatomy as female is enough to make you a TERF nowadays.  The wokies also bombarded a couple of podcasts that she had been schedule to speak on with accusations of transphobia, and she was dropped.

I'm sure that a small-time figure being dropped from a couple of minor podcasts is not going to keep anybody up at night, but I think it illustrates the problem.   Anybody who isn't a complete moron can recognize that the wokies attacking Ms Pin are deranged fanatical imbeciles, but the problem isn't whether they're right or wrong, it's that the accusation exists.  If you're the operator of one of those podcasts, the danger to you is that the accusation of transphobia is the only thing that anybody hears about. Anybody who bothered to look into the matter would realize that it was a ridiculous controversy, but for most people all they would see is the surface and what you see on the surface is a bunch of reviews accusing them of "hosting a known transphobe".

Efforts to "cancel" JK Rowling or Joe Rogan are doomed to fail because they're big enough that they can simply ignore whatever "consequences" the wokies try to inflict on them. But Jessica Pin and the small-time podcasts she was dropped from aren't in the same position.

 -k

I'm sure she's going to be cancelled straight into a bunch of appearances on FOX News and a lucrative gig with some Koch brothers think tank.

Anyway I looked at her Twitter feed and it's humming along fine with no death threats or any of the other **** you said she's facing haunting her menchies, but I'm glad you still have your eye on what's important and not trivial stuff like state-mandated genital inspections of minors, state efforts to suppress votes and criminalize peaceful protests.

Also TIL that TERFS have their own version of "based and red-pilled" called "peaking". Cult ****.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 04:28:16 pm
I'm sure she's going to be cancelled straight into a bunch of appearances on FOX News and a lucrative gig with some Koch brothers think tank.

If wokies are surprised that they elevate relative nobodies into modest celebrities through their idiotic antics, they should look up the "Streisand Effect."

If Ms Pin gets to boost her cause on FOX News or a think tank, I'll consider that a good thing; I think she is doing something worthwhile. If that upsets the wokies, then even better.

Anyway I looked at her Twitter feed and it's humming along fine with no death threats or any of the other **** you said she's facing haunting her menchies,

I mentioned that this was a few weeks ago, yes?  I'm sure the fake outrage warriors have moved on to some other fake outrage. (I hear they're angry about not enough queer representation on Bluey The Dog.)

but I'm glad you still have your eye on what's important and not trivial stuff like state-mandated genital inspections of minors, state efforts to suppress votes and criminalize peaceful protests.

You're mad that I'm not talking about voter suppression in the Cancel Culture thread?

Also TIL that TERFS have their own version of "based and red-pilled" called "peaking". Cult ****.

"Peak trans" is the moment when former liberal feminists reach the breaking point with trans activists. "A trans woman came to my PCOS support group and started policing everybody's language" for example. Sharing your "peak trans" moment used to be an introduction on the Reddit gendercritical group, before Reddit banned them.  Lots of groups have similar things, including the transes (they refer to it as their "egg" hatching-- usually involves jerking off to lesbian p0rn, as I recall).


 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 04:41:07 pm
If wokies are surprised that they elevate relative nobodies into modest celebrities through their idiotic antics, they should look up the "Streisand Effect."

If Ms Pin gets to boost her cause on FOX News or a think tank, I'll consider that a good thing; I think she is doing something worthwhile. If that upsets the wokies, then even better.

I mentioned that this was a few weeks ago, yes? I'm sure the fake outrage warriors have moved on to some other fake outrage. (I hear they're angry about not enough queer representation on Bluey The Dog.)

You might think this would show you how utterly meaningless this incident is and how absurd your obsession with deeply niche social media drama is, but alas.

This stuff is not real life, but when people let it bleed into reality it does nothing but give ammo to right-wingers who would happily throw you into a hole for being queer, but again, you don't seem to have a problem with those bedfellows since nothing is as important as triggering the libs.

Quote
You're mad that I'm not talking about voter suppression in the Cancel Culture thread?

Yeah that's a little more important and a little bit more representative of what "cancel culture" actually looks like than some rando getting insulted on Twitter, which you seem to think is a big f**king deal.

Besides there's already a gender culture thread for all your TERFY needs.

Quote
"Peak trans" is the moment when former liberal feminists reach the breaking point with trans activists. "A trans woman came to my PCOS support group and started policing everybody's language" for example. Sharing your "peak trans" moment used to be an introduction on the Reddit gendercritical group, before Reddit banned them.  Lots of groups have similar things, including the transes (they refer to it as their "egg" hatching-- usually involves jerking off to lesbian p0rn, as I recall).

Yeah like I said: cult ****.


Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 05:25:47 pm

Yeah that's a little more important and a little bit more representative of what "cancel culture" actually looks like than some rando getting insulted on Twitter, which you seem to think is a big f**king deal.

We already have threads for those topics. This thread was created, as far as I can tell, for analyzing what "cancel culture" in the current meme-like usage actually means.  A person (however minor) being booted from podcasts (however minor) for provoking the ire of a mob is right on topic. Sorry that makes you mad.

Besides there's already a gender culture thread for all your TERFY needs.

The gender people and their woke allies are among the most enthusiastic proponents of "cancelling" people who say the wrong things, so there's gonna be some crossover bud.

The truth is that you don't like talking about anything that illustrates what a bunch of lunatics the wokies are, right?

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on April 22, 2021, 06:43:28 pm
Some wokies are crazy some are not.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 22, 2021, 09:17:42 pm
Some wokies are crazy some are not.
Some are starship pilots with a bad temper.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 09:32:47 pm
We already have threads for those topics. This thread was created, as far as I can tell, for analyzing what "cancel culture" in the current meme-like usage actually means.  A person (however minor) being booted from podcasts (however minor) for provoking the ire of a mob is right on topic. Sorry that makes you mad.

The gender people and their woke allies are among the most enthusiastic proponents of "cancelling" people who say the wrong things, so there's gonna be some crossover bud.

The truth is that you don't like talking about anything that illustrates what a bunch of lunatics the wokies are, right?

Yeah again, we're talking about a phenomenon that exists almost exclusively on social media that usually leaves the cancelled better off than they were than before they got cancelled so forgive me for thinking it's a bunch of trivial bullshit that occupies an unhealthy amount of your time and energy at the expense of real issue while also giving cover to people who, as I said, would love to see you, at minimum, stripped of your rights if not in jail or dead. Get off Twitter and the TERF boards and go for a run or something, Christ.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 30, 2021, 02:54:53 pm
Meanwhile a bunch of legislators in the States are moving to ban the teaching of "critical race theory" (that is: anything that goes against the narrative that America is the bestests freest and bestest nation ever to grace the planet), you've got the ex VP out here tweeting (https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/status/1387945224723439619?s=20) blatantly contradictory claptrap about cancel culture (shame the Jan. 6 insurrectionists didn't get a chance to "cancel" him), but I want to hear more about how some nobodies on twitter bullied another nobody on twitter so that person was cancelled by not being able to go on a nothing podcast.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on April 30, 2021, 05:34:42 pm
It's a grift (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/04/how-a-reply-all-email-became-ground-zero-for-the-cancel-culture-wars). It's all a grift.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on April 30, 2021, 07:43:24 pm
Meanwhile a bunch of legislators in the States are moving to ban the teaching of "critical race theory" (that is: anything that goes against the narrative that America is the bestests freest and bestest nation ever to grace the planet), you've got the ex VP out here tweeting (https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/status/1387945224723439619?s=20) blatantly contradictory claptrap about cancel culture (shame the Jan. 6 insurrectionists didn't get a chance to "cancel" him), but I want to hear more about how some nobodies on twitter bullied another nobody on twitter so that person was cancelled by not being able to go on a nothing podcast.

How exactly they plan to legislate thought is something I can't imagine.  You can't write a law to exclude concepts, it's not possible.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 30, 2021, 08:18:04 pm
How exactly they plan to legislate thought is something I can't imagine.  You can't write a law to exclude concepts, it's not possible.

You can do it in Canada (hate speech) but not in the US.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 01, 2021, 05:09:02 am
You can do it in Canada (hate speech) but not in the US.

The Canadian law talks about the intention of the communication... to engender hate.  How are they going to do this for teaching about racism?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 01, 2021, 05:10:12 am
I mean... they could make it illegal to say that there is racism but... Is that what they really want?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 01, 2021, 12:33:00 pm
Meanwhile a bunch of legislators in the States are moving to ban the teaching of "critical race theory" (that is: anything that goes against the narrative that America is the bestests freest and bestest nation ever to grace the planet), you've got the ex VP out here tweeting (https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/status/1387945224723439619?s=20) blatantly contradictory claptrap about cancel culture (shame the Jan. 6 insurrectionists didn't get a chance to "cancel" him), but I want to hear more about how some nobodies on twitter bullied another nobody on twitter so that person was cancelled by not being able to go on a nothing podcast.

Our own government is giving the CRTC the power to regulate social media, but I want to hear more about how Mike Pence's twitter or US highschool curriculum or state legislators in Iowa are the real threats to free speech.

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 01, 2021, 01:57:22 pm
The American example is scarier.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 01, 2021, 02:34:13 pm
I'm not up to date on exactly what "critical race theory" entails, but I believe it is goes beyond saying "racism is real".  It's nothing terribly new in the US... I recall Texas (one of the largest buyers of textbooks) leaning on publishers to do whitewashing on the history of slavery and the Civil War.

Don't Canadian provinces weigh in on curriculum in the same sort of way?  There was debate in BC over whether SOGI curriculum should be in schools. If I recall Ontario had the same sort of political fighting over SOGI curriculum. Didn't the Wynne government mandate SOGI to be in classrooms, and didn't the DOFO government mandate it back out?

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 01, 2021, 03:50:05 pm
How exactly they plan to legislate thought is something I can't imagine.  You can't write a law to exclude concepts, it's not possible.

Well they are. And the point isn't whether or not they are actually enforceable. just having them on the books is enough to chill speech.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 01, 2021, 05:05:28 pm
This is the bill:  https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2021/legislation/H0377.pdf

I don't really see anything wrong with it.  It's banning in public schools/universities any teaching that says that any race, sex, ethnicity, religion, colour, national origin is inherently inferior or superior to another, and that people belonging to those groups are responsible for past actions of members of said groups etc.

Sounds pretty progressive to me actually.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 01, 2021, 07:42:12 pm
1. I'm not up to date on exactly what "critical race theory" entails, but I believe it is goes beyond saying "racism is real".  It's nothing terribly new in the US... I recall Texas (one of the largest buyers of textbooks) leaning on publishers to do whitewashing on the history of slavery and the Civil War.

2. Don't Canadian provinces weigh in on curriculum in the same sort of way?  There was debate in BC over whether SOGI curriculum should be in schools. If I recall Ontario had the same sort of political fighting over SOGI curriculum. Didn't the Wynne government mandate SOGI to be in classrooms, and didn't the DOFO government mandate it back out?

 -k
1. Me too.  Let's look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory an academic extension of 'civil rights' that seems to span post-modernist theory and establishes "white privilege" as a thing.  Ok.
2. I imagine it's different as the provinces establish the curriculum so they can just fight with their internal bureaucracy and ... well, likely just change it a bit.  I can't see there being too many impacts that the political arm in Ontario can have on curriculum.  I mean, the Ford government said they were going to do something but I don't think they did.  I guess that's an actual advantage of independent local school boards: the state government can posture and make noise about "can we think about the children bullshit" on political matters.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 01, 2021, 10:46:12 pm
If you read the bill I don't think the bill is banning critical race theory, just certain tenets (racism, sexism etc) that they claim can be found within critical race theory.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 01, 2021, 11:48:27 pm
This is the bill:  https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2021/legislation/H0377.pdf

I don't really see anything wrong with it.  It's banning in public schools/universities any teaching that says that any race, sex, ethnicity, religion, colour, national origin is inherently inferior or superior to another, and that people belonging to those groups are responsible for past actions of members of said groups etc.

Sounds pretty progressive to me actually.

You're so, so dumb.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 02, 2021, 12:12:51 am
You're so, so dumb.

That's not an argument.  Did you read the bill?  What's wrong with the bill?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 03, 2021, 09:42:01 am
That's not an argument.  Did you read the bill?  What's wrong with the bill?

You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you? Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 03, 2021, 09:54:24 am
You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you? Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?

Part of me wonders if this was introduced to fail as well as pass judicial muster.  I don't think CRT does any of this.

While I do suspect the idiots who craft these things, I also think that they play the system for maximum belicosity and will crow that the courts worked against them when somebody rules that 'white privilege' is not a condemnation of white people.

Still ... why waste our time with this bullshit.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 03, 2021, 10:39:33 am
Part of me wonders if this was introduced to fail as well as pass judicial muster.  I don't think CRT does any of this.

While I do suspect the idiots who craft these things, I also think that they play the system for maximum belicosity and will crow that the courts worked against them when somebody rules that 'white privilege' is not a condemnation of white people.

Still ... why waste our time with this bullshit.

Again, the idea isn't to produce actionable outcomes, but to put enough fear in the hearts of administrators and academics that they will self-censor.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 03, 2021, 05:00:38 pm
You can't possibly be enough of a rube to think this is a good faith attempt to outlaw the teaching of discrimination, are you?

This is a bill by conservative whites who 1. don't like being blamed for lots of past/present wrongs or concepts like "white privilege" and 2. probably legit think some of these concepts are socially divisive, but also 3. they don't know what to do about it, hence this bill.  The funny thing is i'm not even sure the bill has much to do with critical race theory because much of CRT doesn't have to do with being racist or prejudice etc., which is what the bill is targeting.

I'm not saying I support the bill or not, i'm just saying it's certainly not as bad as some of the media make it out to be, because it doesn't ban CRT.

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Or to think that stripping academic institutions of funding if they teach something the state doesn't like is a "progressive" measure?

If schools were teaching anti-black racism and a bill like this came out to defund programs that taught these things would you consider it progressive?  And yes this bill does ban the funding of anti-black racism (all racism, sexism, and discrimination, including islamaphobia, anti-Asian hate etc), but that isn't obviously its raison d'etre.

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Again, the idea isn't to produce actionable outcomes, but to put enough fear in the hearts of administrators and academics that they will self-censor.

This is to assume the most evil intent of this bill, without any evidence, like how you and cybercoma assumed the same intent of the Florida bill that legislated genital checks of transgender athletes.  It's possible, just like any intent is possible, but what's the evidence to assume it?  Are the state GOP in different states this evil, or are they just ignorant, or a bit dumb, or a combo of all 3?  Or do they see something in society they don't like and aren't quite sure how to solve it, and then come up with sloppy or misguided legislation to try and stop it?

The Florida bill btw doesn't require a gym teacher to check a student's genitals, it says that male athletes should compete based on their biological sex and disputes would be resolved “by requesting that the student provide a health examination and consent form or other statement signed by the student's personal health care provider which must verify the student's biological sex.”
https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2021/04/15/florida-house-passes-anti-transgender-bill-that-would-allow-for-genital-examinations-of-high-school-athletes
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 04, 2021, 10:55:16 am
This is a bill by conservative whites who 1. don't like being blamed for lots of past/present wrongs or concepts like "white privilege" and 2. probably legit think some of these concepts are socially divisive, but also 3. they don't know what to do about it, hence this bill. The funny thing is i'm not even sure the bill has much to do with critical race theory because much of CRT doesn't have to do with being racist or prejudice etc., which is what the bill is targeting.

I'm not saying I support the bill or not, i'm just saying it's certainly not as bad as some of the media make it out to be, because it doesn't ban CRT.


Again, you're either a rube or being intentionally obtuse here. First the bill explicitly mentions CRT before segueing into the list of things its forbidding. Second it casts a broad enough brush over what constitutes discrimination that it's easy to see how it can be weaponized by bad faith actors who don't want to hear about white privilege or other CRT concepts that challenge the orthodoxy of American greatness.

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If schools were teaching anti-black racism and a bill like this came out to defund programs that taught these things would you consider it progressive?  And yes this bill does ban the funding of anti-black racism (all racism, sexism, and discrimination, including islamaphobia, anti-Asian hate etc), but that isn't obviously its raison d'etre.

I assume such things would already be forbidden under existing civil rights legislation so I have to ask what problem this bill and others like it actually solves.

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This is to assume the most evil intent of this bill, without any evidence, like how you and cybercoma assumed the same intent of the Florida bill that legislated genital checks of transgender athletes.  It's possible, just like any intent is possible, but what's the evidence to assume it?  Are the state GOP in different states this evil, or are they just ignorant, or a bit dumb, or a combo of all 3?  Or do they see something in society they don't like and aren't quite sure how to solve it, and then come up with sloppy or misguided legislation to try and stop it?

Yeah where (https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/04/idaho-house-rushes-to-ok-bill-against-critical-race-theory-ahead-of-education-budgets/) could we get the idea that this about dictating what teachers can teach?

Quote
Rep. Heather Scott, R-Blanchard, said teachings about critical race theory are a “poison” to schools and have been creeping into the system for years.

“The longer we wait, the more our kids are indoctrinated with this garbage,” Scott said on the House floor.

Here's what the dark money org that pushed this bill has to say. (https://idahofreedom.org/critical-race-theory-idaho-schools/)

So when lawmakers and lobbyists say the intent of this bill and others of its ilk is to prevent certain concepts from being taught in schools, why wouldn't you believe them?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 05, 2021, 05:43:00 pm
First the bill explicitly mentions CRT before segueing into the list of things its forbidding.

Yes it does.  But what the bill forbids has nothing to do directly with CRT at all, which is why I don't understand people's outrage.  If the bill did ban CRT, especially in post-secondary schools, I could definitely understand the outrage.

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Second it casts a broad enough brush over what constitutes discrimination that it's easy to see how it can be weaponized by bad faith actors who don't want to hear about white privilege or other CRT concepts that challenge the orthodoxy of American greatness.

I really don't think so.  It bans discrimination and funding for the teaching of it.  Further to this point:

Quote
I assume such things would already be forbidden under existing civil rights legislation so I have to ask what problem this bill and others like it actually solves.

Exactly.  There's not much going on with the bill.  Maybe it's meant to appease certain people clamoring over CRT.  Maybe it's written by people who legit want to ban CRT and social justice activism in schools etc but they know legally that it can't be done, so this watered down bill that criticizes CRT in the preamble but doesn't actually do anything about it is the best they can do.  The intent of the bill's creation seems a lot different than what the bill actually does, which is why i don't see much of a issue with it because all it says is "don't teach racism, sexism etc.", and everyone with a brain should agree on that.

And headlines like this are misinforming people and causing more outrage than is needed:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/01/992761507/idaho-governor-signs-bill-to-ban-critical-race-theory-in-schools

In terms of social division maybe we should look at the media's declining journalistic standards too.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 05, 2021, 05:55:29 pm
The American example is scarier.

I'm not so sure:  https://globalnews.ca/news/7816226/facebook-instagram-youtube-canada-crtc-canadian-content/

Thankfully the Liberals have since amended the bill after much backlash from experts and the public.

This is the government that wanted to go into every Canadians' bank account and track all their finances and purchases, and the ones that brought back the long-form census.  I support a census, but you don't need my specific name to be attached the info, which it is, even though they anonymize it when they tabulate it for researchers, but they do keep your name attached to it forever and even allow you to release that info after you're dead.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on May 06, 2021, 10:07:36 am
Yes it does.  But what the bill forbids has nothing to do directly with CRT at all, which is why I don't understand people's outrage.  If the bill did ban CRT, especially in post-secondary schools, I could definitely understand the outrage.

If the bill has nothing to do with banning CRT, why does it mention CRT and why do its proponents insist it bans teaching of CRT?

Quote
I really don't think so.  It bans discrimination and funding for the teaching of it. Further to this point:

Discrimination as defined by who?

Quote
Exactly.  There's not much going on with the bill.  Maybe it's meant to appease certain people clamoring over CRT.  Maybe it's written by people who legit want to ban CRT and social justice activism in schools etc but they know legally that it can't be done, so this watered down bill that criticizes CRT in the preamble but doesn't actually do anything about it is the best they can do.  The intent of the bill's creation seems a lot different than what the bill actually does, which is why i don't see much of a issue with it because all it says is "don't teach racism, sexism etc.", and everyone with a brain should agree on that.

It leaves the definitions of these things wide open so that they can be easily weaponized by bad-faith actors. A teacher or prof is going to be far less likely to talk about concepts like white privilege or toxic masculinity when they know that some Young Republican narc could be waiting for the chance to rat them out for violating the law. That's the entire purpose of this bill and you'd have to have your head in the sand to think otherwise.

Quote
And headlines like this are misinforming people and causing more outrage than is needed:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/01/992761507/idaho-governor-signs-bill-to-ban-critical-race-theory-in-schools

In terms of social division maybe we should look at the media's declining journalistic standards too.

Or maybe most of us have been around the block enough by now to know what the right-wing stands for and how they operate and aren't gullible rubes?

I mean, look at this (https://twitter.com/donmoyn/status/1390350541075664900?s=20).

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 06, 2021, 02:58:57 pm
I'm not so sure:  https://globalnews.ca/news/7816226/facebook-instagram-youtube-canada-crtc-canadian-content/
 

I am.

You have professional organizations spreading vax disinfo in the US.   Hooray for freedom.

I'm also ok with the government tracking purchases of organized criminals and tax cheats... No problem here.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 06, 2021, 03:49:38 pm
I am.

You have professional organizations spreading vax disinfo in the US.   Hooray for freedom.

I agree that's a problem, but What does that have to do with Idaho banning CRT in schools?  I'm not saying there should never be limits on free speech.

Quote
I'm also ok with the government tracking purchases of organized criminals and tax cheats... No problem here.

Criminals sure that's fine.  You seem to be changing goal posts here and creating strawmen. 

What about the purchases of ordinary Canadians that have done no wrong?  Canadians are protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms Section 8, which exists to prevent EXACTLY these kinds of government oversteps: "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure."
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 06, 2021, 04:05:38 pm
1. I agree that's a problem, but What does that have to do with Idaho banning CRT in schools?  I'm not saying there should never be limits on free speech.

2. Criminals sure that's fine.  You seem to be changing goal posts here and creating strawmen. 

3. What about the purchases of ordinary Canadians that have done no wrong?  Canadians are protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms Section 8, which exists to prevent EXACTLY these kinds of government oversteps: "Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure."
1. Augh, sorry I forgot the context over days.  It's worse because the government is directly banning the teaching of an idea that, in itself, doesn't do what they say it does.  It would be like a government banning the teaching of 'false science' and then banning evolution to be taught.  Come to thinnk of it, that could be next.
2. Separate topic but if they can track us easily then they can find criminals.  I'm really more and more ok with a common openness as a solution to social problems.  So I'm a pariah, I don't care.
3. A faceless bureaucrat can look at your VISA charges if they think you may have bought child ****.  I don't care if it help them clean up the garbage quickly.  Kind of like 'free speech' changes with the internet so does 'search and seizure'...

They have an 'eye in the sky' that can hover over a city and provide 100% digital camera coverage.  For sure a cop would use it to track his cheating girlfriend.  Terrible affront to her privacy.  Meanwhile, the city can also track every single crime.  Tradeoff ?

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on May 23, 2021, 07:56:46 pm
You can't say Namaste in Alabama schools.  You can do Yoga but you have to use the English words for the poses.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/999020140/its-now-legal-to-practice-yoga-in-alabamas-public-schools
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: kimmy on May 23, 2021, 08:07:26 pm
You can't say Namaste in Alabama schools.  You can do Yoga but you have to use the English words for the poses.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/21/999020140/its-now-legal-to-practice-yoga-in-alabamas-public-schools

I remember the thing in Ottawa (was it at Ottawa U, or Carleton?) where the student yoga class was "cancelled" because someone decided it was cultural appropriation for the white instructor to be leading a "yoga" class. She offered to stop referring to it as "yoga" and rebrand the class as "stretching and relaxation" or something that didn't leverage Indian culture. They declined.

Later the class resumed with an instructor of Indian background.  Asked about the prior controversy, she thought it was a joke. She was born and raised in Calgary; the only thing Indian about her was her last name and her skin-tone.

Anyway, all I'm saying that Alabama is on the side of justice here! Good for them to putting an end to this shameless cultural appropriation!

 -k
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 09, 2021, 02:10:32 pm
At some point the youngins will realize that almost everyone born before WW2 was a racist sexist homophobe.  I expect most people born before WW2 to be cancelled soon.  My grandparents would be cancelled.  They were nice lovely people in literally way, except for being racists, which probably came from never knowing any non-white people. 

They're now trying to cancel Queen Victoria.  I don't know why.  She's really old?  This school has been around since 1887.  https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/05/toronto-school-named-queen-victoria-may-change-anti-black-racism/

Some people have also started cancelling Homer's The Odyssey because Homer was kinda sexist because he called a bunch of whores in his book "whores".
https://twitter.com/mrshlevine/status/1268564623231528960?lang=en
https://www.wsj.com/articles/even-homer-gets-mobbed-11609095872

The academic entire field of The Classics" is now being questioned.  The woke are trying to destroy Western Civilization.  Even the concept of "Western Civilization" is being canceled by the woke crazies:  https://youtu.be/phiO9RXumi8?t=85
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 03:28:56 pm
At some point the youngins will realize that almost everyone born before WW2 was a racist sexist homophobe.  I expect most people born before WW2 to be cancelled soon.  My grandparents would be cancelled.  They were nice lovely people in literally way, except for being racists, which probably came from never knowing any non-white people. 

They're now trying to cancel Queen Victoria.  I don't know why.  She's really old?  This school has been around since 1887.  https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/05/toronto-school-named-queen-victoria-may-change-anti-black-racism/

Some people have also started cancelling Homer's The Odyssey because Homer was kinda sexist because he called a bunch of whores in his book "whores".
https://twitter.com/mrshlevine/status/1268564623231528960?lang=en
https://www.wsj.com/articles/even-homer-gets-mobbed-11609095872

The academic entire field of The Classics" is now being questioned.  The woke are trying to destroy Western Civilization.  Even the concept of "Western Civilization" is being canceled by the woke crazies:  https://youtu.be/phiO9RXumi8?t=85


I think they should change the name from Queen Victoria to something else because there's probably someone more worthy/relevant than that dead old Kraut.

The rest is just satanic panic nonsense being whipped up by right-wing hysteria merchants for partisan purposes.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 09, 2021, 05:40:40 pm
And they're actually trying to cancel the study of racism in schools I think they may need a course in irony
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 09, 2021, 06:52:18 pm

I think they should change the name from Queen Victoria to something else because there's probably someone more worthy/relevant than that dead old Kraut.

Drake Public School?

Quote
The rest is just satanic panic nonsense being whipped up by right-wing hysteria merchants for partisan purposes.

We should cancel the alt-right satanic website BlogTO.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2021, 08:33:37 pm
Drake Public School?

We should cancel the alt-right satanic website BlogTO.

I was actually talking about the other two dumb articles you posted and you filling your diaper with "they're trying to destroy western civilization" nonsense.

The blog TO article is actually pretty good and outlines a lot of good arguments for changing the name, not because old Vicky was a racist (though she was) but because it makes sense to have instutions reflect the communities they serve an not some long dead monarch who never even set foot in this country.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2021, 04:20:48 pm
The blog TO article is actually pretty good and outlines a lot of good arguments for changing the name, not because old Vicky was a racist (though she was) but because it makes sense to have instutions reflect the communities they serve an not some long dead monarch who never even set foot in this country.

I don't think starting to rename very old public institutions based on tribal identities would help our national unity problem.  Most of the kids in the school are Canadian I assume, I don't see how they're any different that way from anyone else who has attended the school.

They also didn't have airplanes in the 1800's so I'm not offended by a Monarch not boating around the world to all the commonwealths.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 11, 2021, 10:48:39 am
I don't think starting to rename very old public institutions based on tribal identities would help our national unity problem.  Most of the kids in the school are Canadian I assume, I don't see how they're any different that way from anyone else who has attended the school.

What is Queen Victoria to a student in the 21st Century? A relic, a name, nothing more.

Telling that you don't see the WASPness that Queen Victoria represents as being a "tribal identity".
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: cybercoma on June 11, 2021, 01:08:53 pm
New Zealand has incorporated a lot of indigenous culture into their national identity which seems pretty cool. They use indigenous greetings. Students in schools perform haka dances (as well as sports teams). There's no reason we couldn't embrace indigenous cultures here in Canada that way. We simply choose not to.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 11, 2021, 01:34:18 pm
New Zealand has incorporated a lot of indigenous culture into their national identity which seems pretty cool. They use indigenous greetings. Students in schools perform haka dances (as well as sports teams). There's no reason we couldn't embrace indigenous cultures here in Canada that way. We simply choose not to.

Fair point, but the challenge here is we have many different Indigenous cultures here vs. just one like in New Zealand.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 11, 2021, 01:38:09 pm
Fair point, but the challenge here is we have many different Indigenous cultures here vs. just one like in New Zealand.

But any event is located on formal tribal land.

In Toronto they give a thanks to the local tribes now.  I just don't think their list of tribes is entirely accurate.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 11, 2021, 01:38:37 pm
And come to think of it, the Mohawks are from upstate NY ... hmmmm
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 11, 2021, 04:10:16 pm
What is Queen Victoria to a student in the 21st Century? A relic, a name, nothing more.

Sounds like a good opportunity to teach them some history of the country.  When we celebrate Victoria Day we should have an idea of what and who we're celebrating instead of just taking off a long weekend.  Knowledge of history in this country is an embarrassment.  How many Canadians can name our 2nd Prime Minister?

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Telling that you don't see the WASPness that Queen Victoria represents as being a "tribal identity".

The school was not named for reasons of the Queen's ethnicity or religion aka WASPness.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 11, 2021, 04:54:19 pm
Sounds like a good opportunity to teach them some history of the country.  When we celebrate Victoria Day we should have an idea of what and who we're celebrating instead of just taking off a long weekend.  Knowledge of history in this country is an embarrassment.

You could do that and still rename the school after someone relevant.

They should change the name of Victoria Day too.

Quote
The school was not named for reasons of the Queen's ethnicity or religion aka WASPness.

But renaming it after, say, an accomplished resident of Parkdale would be "tribal"?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 11, 2021, 04:59:59 pm
Don Cherry public school
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 11:14:33 am
While the right works itself into a froth over "Critical Race theory" being taught in schools (nb: CRT i snot being taught in schools), this (https://twitter.com/jbenton/status/1404245820103348227) is the kind of **** that actually is being taught in schools.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 11:58:09 am
While the right works itself into a froth over "Critical Race theory" being taught in schools (nb: CRT i snot being taught in schools), this (https://twitter.com/jbenton/status/1404245820103348227) is the kind of **** that actually is being taught in schools.

Yeah that sounds like pro-Confederate propaganda.  Also that white family weren't refugees for fleeing to Texas, they were internally displaced persons.

Public schools should not be involved in moralizing and teaching values, whether right or left.  Just teach the facts as objectively as possible and let students make up their own minds and think for themselves.  Everything else is propaganda.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 12:32:38 pm
Public schools should not be involved in moralizing and teaching values, whether right or left.  Just teach the facts as objectively as possible and let students make up their own minds and think for themselves.  Everything else is propaganda.


The decision about what facts to teach is a political one. Or as you would say, propaganda.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 01:09:38 pm

The decision about what facts to teach is a political one. Or as you would say, propaganda.

Yes I agree.  But if there's different narratives involved, which there often is in a history subject, you have to teach the different narratives from a balanced point of view.  The point is to be as objective as possible.  If they followed this up with a "sad" story from the perspectives of slaves then it would probably be ok (or at worst less inappropriate).  If they're just showing the "sad" stories of the slave holders that's not right, and an agenda could be involved, which I suspect there probably is here.

Sometimes bias is on purpose with an agenda or unconscious, but it still needs to be minimized either way.  Public high school/elementary classrooms should not be politicized.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 02:19:51 pm

The decision about what facts to teach is a political one. Or as you would say, propaganda.

Black Dog - do you think it's reasonable to communicate an overall positive view of our country to young people in the education system ?

Keep in mind that is NOT the same as papering over the past.

If so how ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 02:24:46 pm
Black Dog - do you think it's reasonable to communicate an overall positive view of our country to young people in the education system ?

Keep in mind that is NOT the same as papering over the past.

If so how ?

For what purpose?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2021, 02:44:40 pm
For what purpose?

What is it you want?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 02:52:52 pm
What is it you want?

To know why we need to "communicate an overall positive view of our country to young people in the education system".
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 03:04:29 pm
For what purpose?

I have never considered that.

People generally like to feel that their project is redeemable, whether it is a family, city, region, nation or even a religion. 

Did you go to Sřren Kierkegaard Elementary or something ?

Kids drawing "The Scream" in finger painting ?

Class play was Camus ?  The Myth of Syssyphus ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 04:09:26 pm
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done.  And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 04:59:36 pm
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done. And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.

What's the takeaway for students? Is there an educational value in that or is it just patting ourselves on the back?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 05:18:25 pm
Black Dog - do you think it's reasonable to communicate an overall positive view of our country to young people in the education system ?

Keep in mind that is NOT the same as papering over the past.

If so how ?

I think you can have pride in your country without a huge slant of historical nationalist propaganda (our country is always great).  Our country is a great country, and it's been not so great at times too.  It is what it is.  Your parents or spouse may have made some mistakes in their life, it doesn't mean you have to stop loving them.  Nobody's perfect.  If perfection is the standard in order to have pride for one's country then nobody would be proud of their country because every country has done bad things.

You can be in a school where kids stand for the national anthem and also learn about residential school tragedies.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 05:50:56 pm
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done.  And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.

The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.  I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 05:56:57 pm
The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.  I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.

Agreed, for the most part.  Thinking that they’re being indoctrinated by teachers is rather naive, and seems to just buy into rightwing paranoia. 

(The dumb tag was accidental, and now I can’t remove it)
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2021, 06:02:11 pm
I don't know, I can remember a teacher telling us fish would never be exhausted because humans would never be able to deplete the oceans.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 06:15:06 pm
I don't know, I can remember a teacher telling us fish would never be exhausted because humans would never be able to deplete the oceans.

I never said there weren’t crappy teachers.  I never said that some teachers aren’t trying to indoctrinate children. 

But there is no grand leftist conspiracy as we often hear from conservatives on the issue.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 06:19:09 pm
I think an honest comparison as to how Canada is doing, looking at various metrics, should be done.  And, given we are likely 1 of the best countries in which to live, the nation would come out looking quite well. 

Like MH said, that doesn’t mean we should paint over Canada’s poor record where there is one.  But there is nothing wrong with saying how Canada s generally doing, which we all know is very good!

Some people just have a hard time looking at a glass that is half-full, I guess.

Ok, I can work with this.  What about our values, our morality, our 'way of life' ?

Should we try to paint these as good, overall, even though many disagree ?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: waldo on June 14, 2021, 06:19:21 pm
(The dumb tag was accidental, and now I can’t remove it)

whaaa! Ingrained reflexive action, hey member squiggy!
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 06:21:54 pm
Ok, I can work with this.  What about our values, our morality, our 'way of life' ?

Should we try to paint these as good, overall, even though many disagree ?

Can we use a specific example?  What you’re saying is too vague.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 06:31:43 pm
Can we use a specific example?  What you’re saying is too vague.

What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: wilber on June 14, 2021, 06:44:07 pm

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:


ZZZZZZZZZ
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 07:21:55 pm
What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:

I asked for an example…. And I think maybe you tried to sort of be specific…. Maybe….  Then you proceeded to quote someone about philosophers….  It was very Jordan Petersen like….  But I highlighted one. 

We can teach democracy is “good” by comparing it to other systems of governance.  We can assess the arguments of those who disagree with democracy and point out why they’re wrong, or why they’re right.  Then we can compare other forms of democracy and try and point out why thy may be worse…. Or better. 

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 07:46:15 pm
I never said there weren’t crappy teachers.  I never said that some teachers aren’t trying to indoctrinate children. 

But there is no grand leftist conspiracy as we often hear from conservatives on the issue.

I think there's a bit of a leftwing bias in education at least in Canada where I am, especially now that everything is politicized, and obviously a bias in post-secondary, depending on the teacher of course.  Some of it is more unconscious bias, some of it overt.  You're going to tend to teach values you believe in naturally.  I don't think it's some secret conspiracy it's pretty obvious when it happens.  In the US I'm sure there's a mix of right or left bias depending on the area of the country/state.  I'm opposed to both regardless of ideology.

If it's a private board or catholic board i think it becomes more ok to teach values and morality because that's what parents are signing up for.  Public is different.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 07:49:57 pm
1. I asked for an example…. And I think maybe you tried to sort of be specific…. Maybe…. 
2. Then you proceeded to quote someone about philosophers….  It was very Jordan Petersen like….  But I highlighted one. 
3. We can teach democracy is “good” by comparing it to other systems of governance.  We can assess the arguments of those who disagree with democracy and point out why they’re wrong, or why they’re right.  Then we can compare other forms of democracy and try and point out why thy may be worse…. Or better.

1. I am wondering out loud whether we have to imbue Canada as a moral place, and the examples were points upon which morality is highly discussed.
2. That was a joke... Maybe....
3. Ok, so you are saying that democracy is not "good" inherently, but that it has effects that we as Canadians prefer over the alternative.  Ok.  I don't think you are WRONG or anything, but it seems like a sort of ... Soviet ... or philosophical way to teach governance to children. 

Again, not wrong but seems out of reach.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 08:10:13 pm
What is vague ? Morality, values ?

Things like democracy, multiculturalism, inclusion and apologizing for past events reflect a morality, believe in right/wrong, and a sense of justice.

You can't just teach such things as though they have some Vulcan utility, right ?

Remembrance Day ?  The one with the old guy saluting in the cold ?  With a tear rolling down his cheek ?

"That man is expressing an emotional reaction to tribal programming from a young age.  Worry not, children, we will be teaching you John Stuart Mill, Hume, Nietzsche, Sartre and Derrida.  You will know the barren landscape of existence but understand how all morality is a juxtaposition of social frameworks adopted by the existing power structure to maintain the status quo.:

You're talking about values.  I think a government is free to spout off about whatever values they want, ingraining it into our children through public education is a different story isn't it?  Multiculturalism is a Liberal government project, it is a political ideological agenda, whether you think it good or bad is irrelevant to that fact.  Democracy is a bit different as it's built into our constitution from the start, though I'm not sure i'd support our teachers cheerleading "democracy", they're paid to discuss it and teach it, not sell it to kids.

It's fine to teach the concept of ie: multiculturalism vs melting pot etc. (I learned it in school), it's not fine to parrot partisan government lines.  If you disagree then consider if schools taught your children that a melting pot and assimilation is better than multiculturalism, and how you'd feel?  I don't think public schools should be installing values and morals, that's the job of parents.

Remembrance Day...well that's a pretty non-partisan thing.  You're basically a huge jerk not to take a minute to give thanks and respect for the people who died defending your rights.   The day doesn't celebrate specific wars, it celebrates the soldiers who sacrificed in those wars.  The soldiers who were drafted in WWI and WWII didn't even have a choice to fight.  It would be different to teach "this war was just, and this war wasn't".  That's not a public school's job.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 08:19:41 pm
You're talking about values.  I think a government is free to spout off about whatever values they want, ingraining it into our children through public education is a different story isn't it?  Multiculturalism is a Liberal government project, it is a political ideological agenda, whether you think it good or bad is irrelevant to that fact.  Democracy is a bit different as it's built into our constitution from the start, though I'm not sure i'd support our teachers cheerleading "democracy", they're paid to discuss it and teach it, not sell it to kids.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

Quote
It's fine to teach the concept of ie: multiculturalism vs melting pot etc. (I learned it in school), it's not fine to parrot partisan government lines.  If you disagree then consider if schools taught your children that a melting pot and assimilation is better than multiculturalism, and how you'd feel?  I don't think public schools should be installing values and morals, that's the job of parents.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today. 

And lso... why do you think *I* would feel something ?  Do you see me pushing hard on this one way or the other ?  To the point where I would feel something or maybe get upset ?

I like to discuss things and consider different angles on public morality without being invested in it, so much.

Quote

Remembrance Day...well that's a pretty non-partisan thing.  You're basically a huge jerk not to take a minute to give thanks and respect for the people who died defending your rights.   The day doesn't celebrate specific wars, it celebrates the soldiers who sacrificed in those wars.  The soldiers who were drafted in WWI and WWII didn't even have a choice to fight.  It would be different to teach "this war was just, and this war wasn't".  That's not a public school's job.

Everything is political.  There are people who think that Remembrance Day legitimizes war, yes.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 08:39:37 pm
1. I am wondering out loud whether we have to imbue Canada as a moral place, and the examples were points upon which morality is highly discussed.

No.  Places aren’t moral or immoral. 


Quote
3. Ok, so you are saying that democracy is not "good" inherently, but that it has effects that we as Canadians prefer over the alternative.  Ok.  I don't think you are WRONG or anything, but it seems like a sort of ... Soviet ... or philosophical way to teach governance to children. 

Again, not wrong but seems out of reach.

I have no idea how else you would evaluate it.  The Soviets just lied about how great their system was. It’s not Soviet to honestly evaluate the system;  its actually the opposite of what the Soviets did.

Telling children that democracy is inherently good is just religion.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 14, 2021, 08:49:47 pm
1. No.  Places aren’t moral or immoral. 


2. I have no idea how else you would evaluate it.  The Soviets just lied about how great their system was. It’s not Soviet to honestly evaluate the system;  its actually the opposite of what the Soviets did.

Telling children that democracy is inherently good is just religion.
1. Canada isn't just a place, though.
2. And the Americans ?

Jeez, maybe Canada is the first postnational country after all.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 14, 2021, 08:59:01 pm
1. Canada isn't just a place, though.

Well, yeah…. It is.  I’m not talking in metaphors…. If you are saying that Canada is actually Canada’s form of government, laws, etc then we are talking about 2 different things and I would ask you to be literal when you’re using terms.

If you’re talking about Canada, as a whole entity, then I would say it’s moral in some areas and immoral in others.  Each ‘thing’ should be judged on its own merits.

Quote
2. And the Americans ?

Jingoism is strong in those people….  Critical thinking and humility are not.

Quote
Jeez, maybe Canada is the first postnational country after all.

How so?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 14, 2021, 10:37:35 pm
You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

You seem to think this doesn't happen today.

I'm under no illusions of such.  Of course it happens everyday, everywhere.  It needs to be minimized as much as possible.  Cops aren't allowed to put partisan bumper stickers on their squad cars or uniforms either.

Quote
And lso... why do you think *I* would feel something ?  Do you see me pushing hard on this one way or the other ?  To the point where I would feel something or maybe get upset ?

You're a human being with biases and viewpoints like all of us.  I didn't say you disagreed, but some might, as may you.

Quote
Everything is political.  There are people who think that Remembrance Day legitimizes war, yes.

There are necessary wars and optional wars.  Soldiers don't have any say on whether we go to war or not, those decisions are made by politicians.  Either way, having a military is not optional, unless of course you don't want to have a sovereign country at all.  If you support Canada being a country in any way there's no other option than supporting the people who risk their lives defending it because it wouldn't exist without them.  That's very, very different than supporting political policy.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 15, 2021, 04:48:25 am

How so?

It seems to me that you have gone beyond removing jingoism, but arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable. 

Again - this doesn't upset me or evoke opposition in me.  But I will bet that perhaps only the Scandinavian nations are so clinical in considering their national attributes.

And I believe the politics of education necessitate teaching kids that Canada "is good"... because of diversity, etc.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 15, 2021, 04:57:26 am
I'm under no illusions of such.  Of course it happens everyday, everywhere.  It needs to be minimized as much as possible.  Cops aren't allowed to put partisan bumper stickers on their squad cars or uniforms either.

How would you do it ?  A sticker on a bumper is a concrete and real thing.

A few sentences spoken in a classroom by a teacher... a slight shading of meaning to imply that Canada is "better"....

To make people less nationalistic is a long project, and Canada (evidenced by the comments here) is a lot farther down the line than most but the counter-programming from everyone... from Justin Trudeau to Tim Hortons.... is strong.

And - yes - you can still have strong belief in Canadian values, think it's better than other countries, and LOVE Canada... despite our misdeeds.   No project of this magnitude can be dismissed by crimes committed in its name... the Church... Communism.... they endure with their black marks...

Quote
You're a human being with biases and viewpoints like all of us.  I didn't say you disagreed, but some might, as may you.

Yes you are getting at the politics of education, and my bet is that it's politically 'ok' to teach kids that Canada is "good", as dumbed down as that is.

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There are necessary wars and optional wars.  Soldiers don't have any say on whether we go to war or not, those decisions are made by politicians.  Either way, having a military is not optional, unless of course you don't want to have a sovereign country at all.  If you support Canada being a country in any way there's no other option than supporting the people who risk their lives defending it because it wouldn't exist without them.  That's very, very different than supporting political policy.

Some might disagree, though, as you say. 

----

It seems like we're talking about: what *should* be taught, in terms of national moral sphere/jingoistic/patriotic material ... as well as what plays and can be managed politically.

I don't think there's much disagreement here, anyway.  I am surprised a little at the dry take on Canada's moral standing, and how you and Squid feel that should be taught, but I don't disagree with you. 

It's an interesting question for sure.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 15, 2021, 11:28:33 am
It seems to me that you have gone beyond removing jingoism, but arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable. 

No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook. 

I don’t believe that everything within our culture is great, nor do I believe that everything is bad.  I think there has to be a nuanced view, or else you are just spewing rhetoric, not actually dealing in anything objective. 

Saying “our culture is great” doesn’t seem to leave any room for introspection and leads to extremes at the ends of the political spectrums where one side says “everything was great 50 years ago, why are you trying to change us” and at the other end they’re  saying “everything about our culture needs to change.  We’re a culture of colonialism and sexism and it needs to be torn down”.

The truth is somewhere in between, but you can’t get there if you’re teaching that “Canadian culture is great”.


Quote

Again - this doesn't upset me or evoke opposition in me.  But I will bet that perhaps only the Scandinavian nations are so clinical in considering their national attributes.

Maybe that’s the smart way….

Quote

And I believe the politics of education necessitate teaching kids that Canada "is good"... because of diversity, etc.

What does ‘because of diversity’ mean?  Why would that necessitate jingoism?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 15, 2021, 12:17:04 pm
No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook.

So it's "one to strive for" but you don't believe in teaching students that it's valuable ?

Are you just ... argumentative ?  What's the big difference ? 

Quote
Saying “our culture is great” doesn’t seem to leave any room for introspection and leads to extremes at the ends of the political spectrums where one side says “everything was great 50 years ago, why are you trying to change us” and at the other end they’re  saying “everything about our culture needs to change.  We’re a culture of colonialism and sexism and it needs to be torn down”.

Sure, I believe the extremes are to be avoided but you can say it's valuable and meaningful... with problems that need to be acknowledged and considered deeply.

Quote

The truth is somewhere in between, but you can’t get there if you’re teaching that “Canadian culture is great”.


Maybe that’s the smart way….

Ok, yes.

Quote
What does ‘because of diversity’ mean?  Why would that necessitate jingoism?

Jingoism, in order to appear subjective, has to provide a reason right ?

Like "America is great because WE HAVE FREEDOM".  It doesn't matter that the reason is fraught with problems/inaccuracies.

So Canada's is that we have diversity and inclusion, maybe. 

Anyway, we are not in disagreement - at all.  Teaching that what we have is valuable, but part of that is because we are able to look inwardly.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 15, 2021, 12:26:17 pm
So it's "one to strive for" but you don't believe in teaching students that it's valuable ?

Where did I say that?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 15, 2021, 01:07:30 pm

Where did I say that?

Me: [you] arrived at a place where you don't believe in teaching students that our culture is valuable.

You: No, I didn’t.  I think probably overall our culture is the one to strive for, with many exceptions.   But each piece needs introspection and evaluation, not just an overall rosy outlook.

So... I guess you DO think that our culture, such as it is, is valuable and worthy.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 15, 2021, 07:58:01 pm
So... I guess you DO think that our culture, such as it is, is valuable and worthy.

The good parts. 

But I don’t think kids should be taught that Canada is inherently good. 

Education should concentrate on teaching critical thinking skills…. How to think, not what to think.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 16, 2021, 09:58:55 am
This (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/critical-race-theory-invades-school-boards-help-conservative-groups-n1270794) on its face a story about how the astroturfing campaign against critical race theory but is also a neat little insight into the kind of people who watch Fox News and get sucked in by conspiracy theories. They're the same kind of people who will write you passive aggressive notes if you get grass clippings on their portion of the sidewalk or who will yell at you for parking on the street in front of their house: you know, assholes.

Quote
McBreairty became Maine’s chapter leader for No Left Turn last summer. He has since put up a billboard-size sign of a school board member’s face on his lawn and said it was surrounded by rat traps to prevent theft. “This is a war with the left,” McBreairty said in an email to NBC News, “and in war, tactics and strategy can become blurry.” The fight has only escalated, and it shows no sign of slowing.
...
In Nevada, Washoe County’s school board halted in-person meetings in April, after residents filled a large auditorium and lobbed insults and threats of violence during the public comment portion. Meetings opened to the public again in May, in a small office where only a few speakers can be present at a time.

Undeterred, hundreds of conservative activists and local residents, many without children in the district, according to their public testimony, waited in the Reno sun until their names were called to speak out against critical race theory and the board’s recent adoption of a student-led anti-discrimination resolution.

And this is a bit too on the nose:

Quote
“This is an opportunity for what I feel like I've been screaming from the rooftops about,” said Karen England, executive director for Nevada Family Alliance, a conservative nonprofit group known for its efforts to end Drag Queen Story Hour at local libraries. The group recently proposed placing body cameras on teachers to ensure they aren’t teaching critical race theory.

During the most recent meeting, which lasted 11 hours, speakers railed at school board members, calling them Marxists, racists, Nazis and child abusers, among other epithets.

Truly unhinged behaviour.

Quote
In South Kingstown, Rhode Island, the parent of an incoming kindergartener submitted over 200 public records requests in two months, seeking copies of middle and high school curricula, lists of all books related to gender available in the library and 10 years worth of harassment complaints and emails. The district said it would take 300 hours to compile all of the records requested.

These are not people who are genuinely concerned for their children's education. They are psychos.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: eyeball on June 16, 2021, 10:51:40 am
What's the takeaway for students? Is there an educational value in that or is it just patting ourselves on the back?
Maybe a chicken and egg question. Is Canada a decent country because of its people or are Canadians a decent people because of their country? All too often there's a fair bit of basking in the glow of good news while taking credit for it going on, especially amongst governments and other institutions and organizations. Occasionally these will blow a little smoke up the public's rear end but it's clearly motivated by self-interest.  Fiddling with education systems to produce a desired result seems as self-serving as gerrymandering in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 16, 2021, 11:21:04 am
Maybe a chicken and egg question. Is Canada a decent country because of its people or are Canadians a decent people because of their country?

I think institutions that are set up to attain decent results, whether on purpose or by accident, make the country a decent place.

For instance, compare our elections with American elections…. 

Elections Canada, the faceless bureaucrats who follow rules set out by parliaments of the past, ensure fair elections and that they are fairly equal across the country as well as the districts being as fair as possible under the rules.  Very little drama in our elections, other than the results.

USA?  Gerrymandering, unequal voting rules between states, states that try to suppress minority voting, etc, etc.

This is a case where the institution set out by past parliaments have resulted in making Canada a decent country.  Are there people that are actively trying to cheat at elections?  Of course.  Not every person is decent.  The institutions have to be robust enough to withstand those pressures. 
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 16, 2021, 11:44:01 am
The point though is whether this is something that our public schools should be instilling in our children?

I don't think students should be warped into the same political ideology of their teacher or the political leanings of the party in power in a given province, whether right or left.  Nobody on the left wants their kids turned into Trump supporters and no parent on the right wants their kids to become a Marxists because their teacher told them it was the best ideology and Trump sucks.

There is an argument to be made of making our young students into good citizens, which simply means knowing some history (good and bad and everything in between), the basics of how our government works (civics) etc.  Playing the national anthem in the morning.  The same things an immigrant needs to know in order to pass a citizenship test.  You can let students debate, just don't have the teacher lead kids to have one opinion or another.  Teach kids about residential schools, then let them debate.

I think people in Canada know extremely little about their country, both good and bad.  It's pathetic.  Canadians know more about the US than Canada.  If you don't know anything about your country it's harder to feel connected to it and the other people that live in it.  If you feel you don't share anything with other Canadians across the country you will have less national unity.  On the other hand you don't want to be spreading false narratives and slanted propaganda to people just to build a sense of nationalism.  Just teach kids the facts of history and I think they will come to connect with their country more.  If they don't that's their choice too.

I think it's important to feel like you're a part of the national family that is Canada, and in order to do that we need to listen to the stories of everyone in this country so we understand each other more.  I like learning about the refugee stories of different immigrant groups too, it makes me understand why they came to Canada, and gets rid of the "othering" thoughts we tend to do when we don't understand somebody.  What are the stories of the Quebecois?  Different indigenous groups?  People on the east coast?  If you still don't like each other well that's fine but at least you understand them.

The idea that history is an objective set of facts would be rejected by most historians. History is as much about the production of narratives as it is about past events. The mere act of choosing which "facts" to teach is itself a subjective and biased action. That's why teaching critical thinking matters.

Also, if you're gearing your education system with the express purpose of promoting national unity through creating shared historical narratives, congrats, you're doing a propaganda.

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Boges on June 17, 2021, 07:58:59 am
We really gonna cancel Canada Day?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 17, 2021, 08:11:54 am
We really gonna cancel Canada Day?

What does it mean ?

You are going to get the day off.
Maybe people won't be so into it ?

FWIW I'm on a community channel with FN people and although they are disgusted with this, they pretty much unanimously don't want to 'cancel' Canada Day.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 17, 2021, 10:10:35 am
We really gonna cancel Canada Day?

Who is ‘we’?   And why would ‘we’ do that?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Boges on June 17, 2021, 10:24:04 am
Who is ‘we’?   And why would ‘we’ do that?

We is Canada.

Victoria has cancelled it.

Apparently Canada is a toxic colonialist entity and shouldn't be celebrated.

https://www.680news.com/2021/06/16/canada-day-2021-cancel/
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 17, 2021, 11:22:38 am
We is Canada.

Victoria has cancelled it.

Apparently Canada is a toxic colonialist entity and shouldn't be celebrated.

https://www.680news.com/2021/06/16/canada-day-2021-cancel/

Thanks for the context.

You can still get together for a BBQ with your buddies and wave flags.

Personally, I found the celebrations to be a bunch of jingoistic nonsense, so I am having a hard time drumming up any outrage over this.  Having concerts and festivals are nice…. Those should continue.  Of course, the pandemic has put a damper on those anyway.  Fireworks scares the **** out of my cat, so I’m not unhappy that those are gone.

Nothing wrong with having a day to acknowledge Canada, like we do for, say, Boxing Day….  I celebrate Boxing Day at home with a skeet-shooting competition.   Everyone can have a BBQ and reflect with their family and friends what it means to be Canadian.   Enjoy your day off.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 01:41:50 pm
Boxing Day is a British tradition.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 17, 2021, 01:51:08 pm
Boxing Day is a British tradition.

So is hunting foxes.

I am keeping the spirit of the holiday and fox hunts alive with the skeet competition.  Maybe it’s more of a pheasant hunting tradition though….

oh….  What was the point of your post?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 30, 2021, 12:44:14 pm
Conservatives: "Screw your trigger warnings, facts don't care about your feelings snowflake!"

Also conservatives: "We're making it illegal for white kids to feel bad (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/29/magazine/memory-laws.html)."
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 30, 2021, 12:46:02 pm
Conservatives: "Screw your trigger warnings, facts don't care about your feelings snowflake!"

Also conservatives: "We're making it illegal for white kids to feel bad (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/29/magazine/memory-laws.html)."

So were they wrong in the first instance, or the second?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: waldo on June 30, 2021, 01:36:38 pm
Bill Cosby's previous cancel culture 'reckoning'... has been, uhhh... cancelled (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/bill-cosby-conviction-release-6-30-21/index.html)
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2021, 02:36:33 pm
Sounds like somebody wanted to score a legal 'win' without care as to what happened down the line.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-pennsylvanias-highest-court-overturns-bill-cosbys-sexual-assault/

Well... he is guilty as hell, and released on a strong technicality.  That's my take.

So, like Roman Polanski, he should have been freed.

And, yeah, I am not going to be celebrating this or defending Cosby.  But I will also not talk about how this is evidence of... anything beyond a legal f* up...
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Mr. Perfect on June 30, 2021, 02:45:32 pm
Bill Cosby's previous cancel culture 'reckoning'... has been, uhhh... cancelled (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/bill-cosby-conviction-release-6-30-21/index.html)

How was it ‘cancel culture’ to put someone in prison for rrape?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Black Dog on June 30, 2021, 03:37:59 pm
So were they wrong in the first instance, or the second?

Who said it's a matter of right or wrong?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2021, 03:51:20 pm
I read a new assessment that said basically the second da knew this would all get thrown out but likely felt Cosby would at least see some justice, and public humiliation for a while.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on June 30, 2021, 04:29:11 pm
Well I read the abstract of the decision, and I think I mostly got it right. Unclear whether the second DA, though, cared whether or not this would be overturned. They could have been trying to score political points somehow. Or just wanted Cosby to suffer more even temporarily.

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/06/30/j-100-2020mo.-.104821740139246918.pdf
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: waldo on June 30, 2021, 05:51:07 pm
How was it ‘cancel culture’ to put someone in prison for rrape?

the waldo is hesitant to respond... don't dumbTag me bro!

Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: waldo on June 30, 2021, 05:52:35 pm
Harvey Weinstein... #MeToo

too soon?
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 01, 2021, 09:54:49 pm
Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth II statues toppled in Winnipeg at the provincial legislature on Canada Day.  Seems like aboriginal rights protestors did it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/queen-victoria-statue-winnipeg-1.6087684

edit:  there's a video in that article.  A fairly big crowd, many many hundreds it looks like, gathered in front of the statue. Many aboriginals.  The lady filming is very emotional and happy it is toppled.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: MH on July 02, 2021, 04:52:07 am
Either this is a fad, and will give way to new things maybe even important things or politics will just be about renaming hundreds and thousands of things for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2021, 11:44:47 am
Either this is a fad, and will give way to new things maybe even important things or politics will just be about renaming hundreds and thousands of things for the foreseeable future.

I'm curious to how far the "decolonization" project will go?  I think there's a decent chance that once the baby-boomers die off and the whitey anglo is a minority in Canada we'll see serious efforts for Canada to shake off the Crown and become a republic.  They could easily just replace the Queen's duties with the GG title.  Quebec would love to get rid of the Brit royals.  And this will lead to conflict over "Crown lands" among aboriginal groups.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: wilber on July 02, 2021, 12:17:49 pm
I'm curious to how far the "decolonization" project will go?  I think there's a decent chance that once the baby-boomers die off and the whitey anglo is a minority in Canada we'll see serious efforts for Canada to shake off the Crown and become a republic.  They could easily just replace the Queen's duties with the GG title.  Quebec would love to get rid of the Brit royals.  And this will lead to conflict over "Crown lands" among aboriginal groups.

All these things happened after Canada obtained self government, blaming the Crown or colonization is a cop out.
Title: Re: Cancel Culture Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on July 02, 2021, 01:50:35 pm
All these things happened after Canada obtained self government, blaming the Crown or colonization is a cop out.

Whatever is factual isn't really relevant to how people feel and think and their resulting actions.

Canada was built as a British colonial project.  The aboriginals were colonized by the Brits and French, then the Brits defeated France on the Plains of Abraham in Quebec City during the Seven Years War, after which the British Empire imposed its will over the French colonial population, despite different rebellions and the Quebec Francophone nationalism post-Quiet Revolution.  Canada's government is still part of the "British Crown" in many people's eyes, even if it's called the Canadian Crown.

If Quebec resents the Crown and feels few national ties to it, and aboriginals feel the same, and non-anglo immigrants don't give a rat about the monarchy, and in fact some like South Asian migrants whose ancestors lived under their colonial rule also aren't a fan, how long until it's abandoned by Canadians?  How long until they don't want the Monarch on their money or want to celebrate Victoria Day?

It's all really just symbolic at this point since the Crown is just a figure head rubber stamp, symbolic like toppling statues.