Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 02:49:43 pm


Title: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 02:49:43 pm
New thread for discussion of aboliton vs reform and examples of bad cops.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 11, 2021, 04:06:16 pm
That's a feature of policing not a bug.

You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on January 11, 2021, 04:19:06 pm
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

I'm a fan of building things.  But also tearing down things that have no use after the new thing is built.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 04:20:32 pm
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 06:50:50 pm
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
"Defund the police".

Having more cops that can actually help society instead of harm is a good thing.  Unfortunately a lot of cops are under-educated a-holes who are unaccountable.
Here is the problem...

Improved training and standards of conduct are not a bad thing. But, in my opinion, the type of skills needed by a policeman differ from those of (lets say) a mental health professional that I don't think its relevant to expect that simply improving police training would allow them to handle things as well as other specialists. So, by all means, make sure police are better trained. Make sure they have better standards of conduct. But instead of keeping 100 cops on the force, society might be better to cut it down to 90, and then hire 10 psychologists/outreach coordinators/etc. Cops can concentrate on what they're best at, and leave stuff that they're not good at to other people.
 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 06:59:57 pm
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
Except you can't do any of those reforms until you actually defund or abolish the police as we know it.
At this point we're probably going to start splitting hairs when you talk about how you "abolish the police".

Fire everyone, and start hiring an all new force from scratch? Then you have a significant time period when you have no police protection for a few months/years while the new hires get up to scratch.

I have heard of cities that have "technically" fired their police forces, but created a brand new force at the same time, just transferring officers over to the new force (except for possibly the bad ones), but then you're not actually "abolishing" the police.

In my opinion, instead of worrying about defunding/abolishing the police, they simply need to get rid of police unions (or curtail their activities so that they concentrate on employment rights). The problem is that the unions have gotten so powerful that they can influence policy, which allows abuses to continue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:10:34 pm
You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.

You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 11, 2021, 08:27:12 pm
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:43:58 pm
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.

Maybe you should go too.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 11, 2021, 08:52:07 pm
Maybe you should go too.
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:54:27 pm
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.

Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 09:19:06 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 09:26:07 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

All in the US.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 09:44:55 pm
Quote
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.
All in the US.
Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:25:41 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:28:34 pm
All in the US.

Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.

Not to mention the same "Blue code of silence" mentality. We learned during the Braidwood Inquiry how far the RCMP were willing to go to protect their own. We have the same problem with it being very hard to remove problem officers.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:58:51 pm
New thread for discussion of abolton vs reform.

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 11, 2021, 10:59:30 pm
I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

 -k

The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 11:15:03 pm
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

Black Lives Matter is another one because it gets the All Lives Matter response. Black Lives Also Matter is the real point.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 10:01:03 am
The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.
I don't even think that's true.

Libertarians are not anarchists... Libertarians still believe in having some government services, and a basic police force is one of those things. (They may want more limits put on what the cops can do, but they don't want to eliminate them all together.)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 10:06:23 am
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.
To me, "Refund the police" sounds a bit... confusing. Sounds like you sold something to the cops, but they want their money back.

In another thread, I suggested "Demilitarize the Police" as an alternative. It is far less catchy than "Defund the Police", but I think it better captures what exactly the protesters are trying to do.

And even better, it would be less scary to certain people. Even the most nervous white suburbanite who might worry that "Defund the police means the cops won't be there if I get robbed" will probably agree that "I want my cops to act like police, not like soldiers".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 10:29:25 am
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.

I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k

Yes.

It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 12:05:15 pm
I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Yes.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of the street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 12:20:36 pm
I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student,  and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of he street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.

I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 12:26:45 pm
Quote
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?
Yes.
...
I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 12:31:32 pm
I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.

You asked, I told you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 01:29:38 pm
You asked, I told you.

No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 01:38:21 pm
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?

First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.

Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:15:34 pm
Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?

I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:17:29 pm
NYPD Anti-Discrimination Chief Retires Before Suspension for ‘Vile, Racist' Messages (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-anti-discrimination-chief-suspended-without-pay-over-vile-racist-messages/2822729/)

Quote
The head of the NYPD's workplace discrimination office has opted to retire days after having been suspended without pay for 30 days after investigators say he posted hateful messages to a website where cops air grievances anonymously.

Deputy Inspector James Kobel was relieved of his command in early November after he was accused of penning attacks on Black and Jewish people, women, members of the LGBTQ community and others for more than a year using the pseudonym “Clouseau," a reference to the bumbling French detective in the “Pink Panther" films.
...
In messages posted on the website, “Clouseau" referred to Bronx District Attorney Darcel Clark as a “gap-tooth wildebeest,” ridiculed Public Advocate Jumaane Williams for having Tourette's syndrome, called former President Barack Obama a “Muslim savage” and Mayor Bill de Blasio’s son, Dante, a “brillohead.” All of them are Black.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 02:39:24 pm
I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.

You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 02:42:36 pm
First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

See: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=1
(These are American figures... tried to find the Canadian equivalent, but could not. But given the similarity in our laws, we probably would have similar numbers, although probably fewer drug arrests due to our legalization efforts.)
Quote
Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.
Quote
but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:47:46 pm
You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.

Oh ****, they have to do paperwork? Whoah that changes everything!

And for the record, the success of a prosecution or whether a charge sticks has nothing to do with clearance rates.

"The clearance rate represents the proportion of criminal incidents solved by the police. Police can clear an incident by charge or by means other than the laying of a charge. For an incident to be cleared by charge, at least one accused must have been identified and either a charge has been laid, or recommended to be laid, against this individual in connection with the incident."


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:58:06 pm
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Quote
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

Quote
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 12, 2021, 03:04:37 pm
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:10:29 pm
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary.

Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 03:16:49 pm
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.

The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 03:21:30 pm
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.

I'm not a huge fan of photo radar for speed enforcement unless it restricted to high crash locations and the threshold is set fairly high.
Considering the number of crashes at intersections, I think red light cameras are a great idea. Anyone who enters an intersection on a red deserves a ticket.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 03:30:27 pm
Quote
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.).
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Quote
You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:32:30 pm
The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.

Quote
Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.

Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 03:39:54 pm
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.
I think the evidence shows that no, they are not.

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3861844/
For the 26 mile experimental camera containing segment of interstate...speed cameras did not statistically contribute to an increase or decrease in the number of MVC.

There are some people who think it might reduce the severity of actions (because cars are going slower).

And from: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/#:~:text=Evidence%20clearly%20shows%20that%20camera,contradictory%20effects%20on%20traffic%20safety.
...we examined all police-recorded traffic accidents for three large Texas cities over a 12-year period...We found no evidence that red light cameras improve public safety.
...
Evidence clearly shows that camera programs are effective at decreasing the number of vehicles running red lights....However, cameras can have contradictory effects on traffic safety....But the number of accidents from stopping at a red light – such as rear-end accidents – is likely to increase.


So, red light cameras decrease the number of 'T-bone' collisions, but that's offset by an increase in the number of rear-end collisions.
ETA: Of course, even if it doesn't make things safer, there still might be justification in using red-light cameras if it (for example) improves traffic flow.

Now, those are only 2 studies... there may be others that show a more positive effect, so I could be convinced otherwise with the right evidence.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:43:31 pm
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Do you know that for certain? Do you know what their life circumstances were to the point they committed their crimes?

Quote
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.

How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?

Again, the question that should be asked before asking "what would you do without the police?" is "what do we actually need the police for?"
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 04:14:21 pm
Quote
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.
Do you know that for certain?
Do I know what for certain?

That most drug arrests for for simple possession? Pretty sure, yeah:

From: https://drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics
Number of arrests in 2018 in the U.S. for drug law violations: 1,654,282
Number of drug arrests that were for possession only: 1,429,299


That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash". The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal".

(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".
Quote
How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?
Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket".

Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 04:15:27 pm
There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.



When have you had either?

Quote
Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?

Then hire more police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 04:18:05 pm
Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 04:22:53 pm
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:26:06 pm
That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash".

 The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal"

I bet a lot of petty robbery is related to addiction and poverty. And there's also a lot of organized crime involvement in identity theft rings and fencing stolen goods as well as drugs so I'm not sure you can disentangle this knot.

Quote
(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".

Again: abolition is an acknowledgement that the institution as currently constructed is beyond reform. So even if you abolish police and create a different kind of police, their training, equipment, role and responsibilities would be significantly different from what we have now.

Quote
Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket". Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.

What about check stops?

I mean you could have a designated "traffic enforcement agency" that does what the cops do to enforce traffic laws, only without the "pulling people over for broken taillights to justify vehicle searches" part.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:27:28 pm
When have you had either?

Huh?

Quote
Then hire more police.

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 04:30:56 pm
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 06:51:35 pm
Huh?

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.

You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.
What service do you know of that costs less than it did a few years ago.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 06:54:43 pm
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.

I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 07:19:30 pm
I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 08:38:57 pm
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.

I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 09:21:37 pm
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 10:10:26 pm
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside even the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.

Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 13, 2021, 01:56:57 am
Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
Except that paramilitary is a term that describes an unofficial military organization.  I doubt that would work.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 09:39:46 am
You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.

No I didn't. In fact, I said the exact opposite:

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 09:50:36 am
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.

No it doesn't.

It's worthwhile to look at the history of policing to see why it is the way it is and what purpose it serves.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 13, 2021, 12:30:39 pm
Cops do a great job, if you’re white.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5861706
Quote
Whenever Kenrick McRae uses his car, he does a thorough spot check first. Before he gets in, he walks around the car, even testing the brake lights by putting a brick on the pedal to verify that the lights are on.

"I always want to be on the right side of the law," he told CBC's The Doc Project radio program.

But no matter how scrupulous he is, McRae, who is Black, can't seem to avoid being stopped by Montreal police. He's been pulled over dozens of times, he says, some months, as many as 15.

If you’re black, then not so much....

How many times have I been pulled over seemingly randomly?  Never. 
Do I need to walk around my car and test that everything works before leaving my driveway because I don’t want to give the cops any reason to pull me over?  No, never.

THIS is exactly the kind of thing that needs to stop and why “defund the police” is an excellent slogan.  **** the racist cops and **** their enablers....  each and every one of their colleagues who don’t push for things like this to change are just as bad as they are. 

$486 dollar ticket for having an open container of booze in the car when he was taking his bottles to the recyclers.

Smash the entire thing and rebuild it.  Fire every single officer once by one systematically across each police force and re-hire some of them back.  Start removing the racist ones and force them to PROVE they had a reason to pull over each and every person they pulled over that day.

I didn’t want to give my anecdotal experiences, as anecdotes aren’t really that useful, but these are interesting. 

I now a guy who is black that refuses to get a licence and drive a car because of how he has been treated in places in Canada when he has driven.

I know another guy, he’s S. American living in small town BC...  they often block the only road in and out to look for drunks, etc ...   Depending on the reason for the roadblock, most cars just get waved through....  never his.  There is ALWAYS a reason to pull him over “randomly”. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 12:37:40 pm
No it doesn't.

It's worthwhile to look at the history of policing to see why it is the way it is and what purpose it serves.

Quote
A paramilitary organization is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces.

This describes a police force. It most certainly describes a tactical police force (ERT)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 01:07:48 pm
This describes a police force. It most certainly describes a tactical police force (ERT)

No it describes a police force as traditionally constructed. A paramilitary structure with armament to match is not a prerequisite of policing.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 01:58:22 pm
No it describes a police force as traditionally constructed. A paramilitary structure with armament to match is not a prerequisite of policing.

It is unless you are going to call in an army special forces team any time you need ERT.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 02:23:42 pm
It is unless you are going to call in an army special forces team any time you need ERT.

Which is almost never. Oh sure, these teams get used a lot, but they're very seldom actually needed. But if you give cops a hammer, they tend to treat everything like a nail and that's been the case with the militarization of police.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 02:35:05 pm
Which is almost never. Oh sure, these teams get used a lot, but they're very seldom actually needed. But if you give cops a hammer, they tend to treat everything like a nail and that's been the case with the militarization of police.

Because no one got hurt you say they weren't needed.
The threat of overwhelming force is a great deterrent. Weakness gets people killed.

In New Brunswick three RCMP officers were killed and two more wounded by a single gunman for the simple reason he was better armed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 03:58:10 pm
Because no one got hurt you say they weren't needed.
The threat of overwhelming force is a great deterrent. Weakness gets people killed.

By this logic, we should give cops helicopter gunships and stealth bombers because you just never know. Here in Canada studies have shown that reactive calls such as hostage situations and barricaded subjects comprised approximately 25% of tactical unit deployments. The rest is serving warrants and duties that could be handled by regular cops. But these units are hella expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.

Quote
In New Brunswick three RCMP officers were killed and two more wounded by a single gunman for the simple reason he was better armed.

Well that and there were multiple warning signs that this guy wasn't right in the head that were either ignored on not transmitted to the authorities.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 06:00:25 pm
By this logic, we should give cops helicopter gunships and stealth bombers because you just never know. Here in Canada studies have shown that reactive calls such as hostage situations and barricaded subjects comprised approximately 25% of tactical unit deployments. The rest is serving warrants and duties that could be handled by regular cops. But these units are hella expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.



Now you are getting really stupid

What do you think those warrants are for? Many are for known gang members and other nasty people, they aren't being served for shop lifting.

Quote
Well that and there were multiple warning signs that this guy wasn't right in the head that were either ignored on not transmitted to the authorities.

And that was somehow the fault of the police?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 13, 2021, 07:30:08 pm
What about check stops?

I mean you could have a designated "traffic enforcement agency" that does what the cops do to enforce traffic laws, only without the "pulling people over for broken taillights to justify vehicle searches" part.

That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 13, 2021, 07:37:10 pm
That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.

They can “smell marijuana”.... 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:55:56 pm
Now you are getting really stupid

What do you think those warrants are for? Many are for known gang members and other nasty people, they aren't being served for shop lifting.

Prove it copsucker.

Quote
And that was somehow the fault of the police?

I'd explain it but there's simply no way it would penetrate your brain because it's so addled by pro cop propaganda and personal bias.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:57:22 pm
That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.

Yeah cops can and do cook up all kinds of b.s probable causes after the fact.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:58:42 pm
They can “smell marijuana”....

Or they just "look like a person of interest" (read: black). See: Philando Castile.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 09:13:23 pm
Prove it copsucker.

I'd explain it but there's simply no way it would penetrate your brain because it's so addled by pro cop propaganda and personal bias.
Go **** yourself you ignorant git.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 09:14:28 pm
They can “smell marijuana”....

Anyone can smell marijuana, it smells like you just walked into a patch of skunk cabbage.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 13, 2021, 09:54:51 pm
Yeah cops can and do cook up all kinds of b.s probable causes after the fact.

The cop has to give you the reason right then and there, or provide a search warrant.  This is why people who stopped by cops should always have their smartphone recording it.

If a cop is making up lies you can request their supervisor to come on site.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 13, 2021, 09:58:53 pm
Anyone can smell marijuana, it smells like you just walked into a patch of skunk cabbage.

Yes...   cops can smell it even when it’s not there....   that’s how amazing their senses are!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 13, 2021, 10:08:17 pm
If a cop claimed to smell marijuana in my car and i wasn't smoking i'd request an MJ saliva test before they put one finger in my car.  I simply wouldn't open my car for them.  Then i'd file an official complain at their dept. and b&tch them out to their supervisor, run their name and badge # and photo all over facebook and twitter and reddit, upload the video to Youtube, and otherwise make their life a living hell.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 13, 2021, 10:51:35 pm
If a cop claimed to smell marijuana in my car and i wasn't smoking i'd request an MJ saliva test before they put one finger in my car.  I simply wouldn't open my car for them.  Then i'd file an official complain at their dept. and b&tch them out to their supervisor, run their name and badge # and photo all over facebook and twitter and reddit, upload the video to Youtube, and otherwise make their life a living hell.

You’d be dragged out by your hair kicking and screaming. Once they have probable cause, you’re done.  Good luck.

Of course, you’ll be fine....   they won’t smell anything coming from your mom’s car cuz you’re not a black or brown person.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 13, 2021, 11:14:01 pm
You’d be dragged out by your hair kicking and screaming. Once they have probable cause, you’re done.  Good luck.

They can't.  Smelling pot isn't probable cause:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/police-can-t-search-based-on-pot-smell-alone-sask-court-rules-1.701628

But if you want to let the cops to search your vehicle go ahead.  They aren't touching my car.

Quote
Of course, you’ll be fine....   they won’t smell anything coming from your mom’s car cuz you’re not a black or brown person.

Wow right to the insults huh?  Thank you for ironically showing everyone on this forum how childish you are!  That was easy.  :D

You nor anyone else on here has any idea what my race is.  Assuming my race because of how I post makes you prejudice and racist.  Any other great arguments to share with us?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 13, 2021, 11:33:17 pm
I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

In my neighborhood, "those people" are mostly white meth-heads, and sharing European ancestry with them doesn't make me feel better about them doing whatever they want.

I agree with the premise that comprehensive mental health programs, drug rehabilitation, and anti-poverty programs could have a significant impact on the amount of crime that occurs. And I think that the majority of people are decent people who wouldn't commit serious crime even if there were not police around. However, I also believe that there are people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there were no police around.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 09:42:27 am
Go **** yourself you ignorant git.

*insults a poster
*gets insulted back
*cries
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 14, 2021, 09:58:35 am
Defund these fuckers....

Quote
Lawyers for a northern Ontario police force are trying to have video of an Indigenous man being dragged inside a police station excluded from an upcoming inquest.

The footage shows how Thunder Bay police officers treated Dino Kwandibens of Whitesand First Nation while in custody at the police station on Aug. 2, 2014, the same night Don Mamakwa, 44, of Kasabonika First Nation was arrested for public intoxication and later found dead in his cell.


Through their legal counsel, Thunder Bay's police chief and several officers filed a notice of motion to exclude the cellblock video, arguing the footage is irrelevant and outside the scope of the upcoming inquest into the deaths of Mamakwa and Roland McKay, 50, of Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug, who died in Thunder Bay Police Service (TBPS) custody on July 20, 2017.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/mamakwa-mckay-preinquest-video-motion-1.5871920

You can’t show video of what actually happened at the inquest to look into what happened!  That’s what the cops are arguing.  Dirtbags.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 10:05:29 am
In my neighborhood, "those people" are mostly white meth-heads, and sharing European ancestry with them doesn't make me feel better about them doing whatever they want.

I agree with the premise that comprehensive mental health programs, drug rehabilitation, and anti-poverty programs could have a significant impact on the amount of crime that occurs. And I think that the majority of people are decent people who wouldn't commit serious crime even if there were not police around. However, I also believe that there are people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there were no police around.

 -k

Those are probably the people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there are police around.

I'm not arguing there's no role for law enforcement in our society, quite the opposite. But I see no way of reforming the police when the police themselves are almost universally resistant to reform and accountability and the culture of modern policing is so thoroughly rotten. It's like trying to spruce up a house with a lick of paint and some new curtains when the foundation is crumbling.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 06:26:30 pm
Traffic enforcement without police (https://theappeal.org/traffic-enforcement-without-police/)

Quote
Of all the functions that could be separated from the police department, one of the most significant would be the removal of traffic enforcement. Over 24 million people each year come into contact with police during a traffic stop, according to data from the Department of Justice. And traffic stops can be especially dangerous and discriminatory for people of color: Black drivers are 20 percent more likely to be stopped than white drivers, and as much as twice as likely to be searched, according to a study of 100 million traffic stops conducted by the Stanford Open Policing Project. And 11 percent of all fatal shootings by police in 2015 occurred during traffic stops, according to a Washington Post database of police killings.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 14, 2021, 07:03:35 pm
Those are probably the people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there are police around.

I'm not arguing there's no role for law enforcement in our society, quite the opposite. But I see no way of reforming the police when the police themselves are almost universally resistant to reform and accountability and the culture of modern policing is so thoroughly rotten. It's like trying to spruce up a house with a lick of paint and some new curtains when the foundation is crumbling.

You tell them that anyone who doesn't reform and do and follow the new training and procedures and current laws etc. will be fired.  And if the unions don't like that then you say then we'll fire all of you, shut down the police, and create a brand new law enforcement force.

The problem is the police chiefs let their officers literally get away with murder.  The culture is to protect the brotherhood, but police don't take an oath to serve and protect the brotherhood (themselves) they take an oath to serve and protect the public.  The mayors and city councilors need to hold the police chiefs accountable and stand up to the unions and force everyone to honour their oath or fire them, and citizens need to hold mayors/councilors accountable so they do this.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on March 08, 2021, 06:04:33 pm
https://lethbridgeherald.com/news/lethbridge-news/2021/02/02/phillips-granted-complainant-status-against-two-officers-who-conducted-an-unlawful-surveillance/

Idiot cops and the senior officials who protect them...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 08:46:52 pm
https://lethbridgeherald.com/news/lethbridge-news/2021/02/02/phillips-granted-complainant-status-against-two-officers-who-conducted-an-unlawful-surveillance/

Idiot cops and the senior officials who protect them...

That's my town folks!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on March 08, 2021, 08:57:15 pm
That's my town folks!

Weirdly we have almost coast to coast representation here...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2021, 09:04:46 pm
Better defund them police.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/victoria-police-chief-says-bylaw-officers-chased-threatened-in-city-parks-1.24283968
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 09:14:03 pm
Better defund them police.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/victoria-police-chief-says-bylaw-officers-chased-threatened-in-city-parks-1.24283968

LMAO damn if only there was a way to not have people sleeping in tents in the park.

Like the fact that you think this story, from a city that spends nearly 25% of its budget on police, shows how much we need cops as opposed to how messed up the priorities are is funny as hell.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 08, 2021, 09:27:57 pm
Better defund them police.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/victoria-police-chief-says-bylaw-officers-chased-threatened-in-city-parks-1.24283968

You know very well you’re using the slogan dishonestly.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2021, 09:35:34 pm
LMAO damn if only there was a way to not have people sleeping in tents in the park.

Like the fact that you think this story, from a city that spends nearly 25% of its budget on police, shows how much we need cops as opposed to how messed up the priorities are is funny as hell.

If only eh.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 09:43:45 pm
If only eh.

I would start by seeing how many homeless people you could help get off the streets with a single VPD cops' starting salary of $72K.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 08, 2021, 09:49:07 pm
I would start by seeing how many homeless people you could help get off the streets with a single VPD cops' starting salary of $72K.

I don't know, how many? Why don't you get on that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 09:52:59 pm
I don't know, how many? Why don't you get on that.

Hey I found your family photo:

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr02/2013/3/11/16/enhanced-buzz-14585-1363033923-17.jpg?output-quality=auto&output-format=auto&downsize=640:*)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on March 09, 2021, 07:46:42 pm
Hey I found your family photo:

What the **** is wrong with you?  Seek help.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 10:22:14 am
What the **** is wrong with you?  Seek help.

 -k

You know the old saying: act like a dink while defending cops, get PPB'd.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 12:21:59 pm
Interesting twitter thread here (https://twitter.com/ciccolinijulie/status/1369674551051902978) on NYPD pigs racking up lawsuits that get paid out with taxpayer funds while escaping any formal discipline.

Not only should these cops face discipline from the departments, money for the settlements should come right out of the police budget.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 12, 2021, 03:14:55 pm
Why are cops such crybabies?

Kentucky Senate Passes Bill Criminalizing Insults Against Police (https://wfpl.org/kentucky-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-insults-against-police/)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 12, 2021, 04:19:49 pm
Why are cops such crybabies?

Kentucky Senate Passes Bill Criminalizing Insults Against Police (https://wfpl.org/kentucky-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-insults-against-police/)

Not sure how that’s constitutional....   speech is protected. 

https://reason.com/2021/03/05/kentucky-bill-would-make-insulting-a-cop-a-crime/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 12, 2021, 04:42:28 pm
Not sure how that’s constitutional....   speech is protected. 

https://reason.com/2021/03/05/kentucky-bill-would-make-insulting-a-cop-a-crime/

Agreed.  That bill is going to be shot down by a court very quickly.  Terrible law.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2021, 05:27:37 pm
Agreed.  That bill is going to be shot down by a court very quickly.  Terrible law.

Not a great idea but on the other hand, no one has the right to stand six inches from you screaming obscenities into your face. I don't see why police or any other first responders should have to put up with it while they are trying to do their job. It will depend on how it is applied, courts should set a high bar for convictions.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 12, 2021, 07:33:02 pm
Not a great idea but on the other hand, no one has the right to stand six inches from you screaming obscenities into your face. I don't see why police or any other first responders should have to put up with it while they are trying to do their job. It will depend on how it is applied, courts should set a high bar for convictions.

I reserve the right to fling middle fingers or obscenities at cops just as I can anyone else in public.  Screaming in someone's face might be a stretch, people could get cited for disturbing the peace.  Cops don't need more excuses to arrest people, they're already on power trips.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2021, 08:49:01 pm
I reserve the right to fling middle fingers or obscenities at cops just as I can anyone else in public.  Screaming in someone's face might be a stretch, people could get cited for disturbing the peace.  Cops don't need more excuses to arrest people, they're already on power trips.

Wow. I don't know what kind of interactions you guys are having with the police but they don't seem to be the same as 90% of people.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on March 13, 2021, 06:25:25 am
Wow. I don't know what kind of interactions you guys are having with the police but they don't seem to be the same as 90% of people.

Agreed.  I hate interacting with cops and they seem to instantly recognize me as being overly compliant and thus hate talking to me too.  I don't think I have spent more than 10 seconds at a RIDE stop - they just whisk me through.  They can smell the legality.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 13, 2021, 09:26:53 am
Do cops ever consider someone overly compliant? I thought the compliance was why they applied for the job in the first place.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 10:31:48 am
Do cops ever consider someone overly compliant? I thought the compliance was why they applied for the job in the first place.

Do you assume the same for anyone who has some sort of position of authority?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 13, 2021, 12:15:53 pm
Do you assume the same for anyone who has some sort of position of authority?
Depends on the position and how much authority, but yes. I think people generally pursue power for its own sake, not so much to spread peace and joy.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 12:27:55 pm
Depends on the position and how much authority, but yes. I think people generally pursue power for its own sake, not so much to spread peace and joy.

Some people just want to serve their communities.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 13, 2021, 12:40:17 pm
Agreed.  I hate interacting with cops and they seem to instantly recognize me as being overly compliant and thus hate talking to me too.  I don't think I have spent more than 10 seconds at a RIDE stop - they just whisk me through.  They can smell the legality.

It actually really helps that your skin is white.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2021, 03:52:48 pm
Some people just want to serve their communities.

And some don't.  Hence middle fingers and obscenities.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2021, 03:58:13 pm
Agreed.  I hate interacting with cops and they seem to instantly recognize me as being overly compliant and thus hate talking to me too.  I don't think I have spent more than 10 seconds at a RIDE stop - they just whisk me through.  They can smell the legality.

Cops frequently insist citizens to do things they don't legally have to do, like show them their ID with no probable cause of committing a crime, or sometimes a request to search a vehicle.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 13, 2021, 05:39:34 pm
Not a great idea but on the other hand, no one has the right to stand six inches from you screaming obscenities into your face. I don't see why police or any other first responders should have to put up with it while they are trying to do their job. It will depend on how it is applied, courts should set a high bar for convictions.

Yes they do.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 13, 2021, 05:53:14 pm
Over on pervert island, a woman disappeared and was later found murdered. The suspect is a cop.

Today there was a vigil in the park where Sarah Everard's body was found.

And then this happened:

Quote
The evening began in grief and silence, as hundreds gathered to remember Sarah Everard and call for changes that will keep others safe. It ended in fury and violence, as police trampled flowers and candles laid out in memory of Everard, trying to silence women speaking out to honour her.

Link (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/13/as-the-sun-set-they-came-in-solidarity-and-to-pay-tribute-to-sarah-everard)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on March 13, 2021, 06:10:32 pm
Yes they do.
I think anyone would have a right to stop someone from doing that especially now given the awareness of how easy it is to become infected with a life threatening disease.  I'm pretty sure screaming obscenities in the face of a cop from 6" away would result in an assault charge - after you'd been thrown to the ground and cuffed of course.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 06:18:58 pm
I think anyone would have a right to stop someone from doing that especially now given the awareness of how easy it is to become infected with a life threatening disease.  I'm pretty sure screaming obscenities in the face of a cop from 6" away would result in an assault charge - after you'd been thrown to the ground and cuffed of course.

Demonstrators do it fairly often and they don't react.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 13, 2021, 06:20:39 pm
Demonstrators do it fairly often and they don't react.

This makes it a virtual guarantee that they will escalate the situation, when perhaps there are better outcomes if they didn’t react to such provocation.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 06:35:18 pm
This makes it a virtual guarantee that they will escalate the situation, when perhaps there are better outcomes if they didn’t react to such provocation.

They usually don't react.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2021, 07:28:08 pm
Cops have zero right to not have their feelings hurt.  The only time I think something might be able to be done is if they are screaming in their face where they could damage their hearing, which is kind of assault, or things as I've mentioned like disturbing the peace, which should have a high bar. 

Citizens should be able to protest the government with free speech.  Everyone should have the right to tell an MP or police officer to get effed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 07:43:17 pm
Del
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P7Ji5TXpBIFK3tQ05peLZi3lBguvSzbKefIxBMw0BlTi%2Boq38YkzAWLFHH5HFDX9fSLbJVQqtTcA0ptURXcPjMKWqmktqvUCtTzDeZiwP0hM6Lf0mmz4W4nFhbk0jJs2prWKp2laczAIpK0uR618oErYpSpAHaDEB3tc3Hmax1L7Iuya2JWwJtsOY1keXn2ilgbG4PhFxxxmTF0I6orKQSdQbw00G1OYqUteIzjDbsiufwoAqqYZZy6aF2ZlLEbgaTYxXc9yxUKvLDBHDEK%2FvKVNHWvNLRecrlNJZhrVw610hge%2FQDUo4FN%2FKKh2mzFWmrLS6S%2BerM1W%2BVhFY5SseaMVErDR1LakE46WPeHJof3gGsdKdnEyy5JnjyWBRip2sSLGxFRFhOOLrrUkg%2FOvIPjHn6PHpPZDJdWGVzWsws3oDpX6CvrETdIcfRa80nrA2k1MXlOzy8wSvZ9PhjLY0o890xiywSK2FbmL1P7OITYQDiuzNLrC2Ch7kn8NlS1JJmNzUH6Cw%2BcMZ3bCUgpKRQPQfRf3jzyblzpa8RDBTD1MaKXCNS14ztrMaoDUH9NvtCKZnzk1qYgTIppEcfwOb0hbhqV7tPPUKoYVmVqpvUKPeLcNXxFbRWmmniDu0eK14hyNlOgdKL%2FesAYRCzi1YtKog3bGuVZTOn2UgdNUdqZ%2BEnaWqji4PBB5BiyZDhZiqwNHVlIFCVZGOzLQivrWGszLJeKdkehcVEpWYoUoLk3JYGnumMlO5fKNnjpcTsI7PYnue1qCx3BXVvzDM4uUzDXLTVa91%2BawRluXJIUBXIJArRRSlN78b0rHOKzSUhqVV2H5tIqPUWiG0jRMFzaYjoyo0tSrAMVFDSla%2BXjFHzbMEWwvYCvJG9B0H9osmbz1xKs5LIoAUtpChtLVAoaVv0jz3FzNTVpsNj5n5naCKUnZM5NKjl8WW7z36Lso6WEQviGJubdALRoHwqfkB6RpTwKHx49I3owsJTEECgtWGmT4nQxJNzFmyvLlSSRLSWzrLDszoHZ2IqVGr3V8ogl5RLm95U0P%2BdFNg1ATQHaxBjGWReHU8Eo02xzlmcmlCYYHGsYo2ILyJgDA6fHjz%2BcWzBOGUEcxDOjHLlDNMWxG8S%2FimdSlaE7Hoa1H1ha8wiOZcw6xSCjV00C4nI5yP7dyXcG2n8o4oNqCkFfimAqznxHIgefmU2diBh5as4QaplCQBUGlSPT%2FACsdY3DmWpeYjDYHUO7U9DFLw5Z02KT2flzXM1HdQG1WIAJBqbeMOJr1O8BSMUoWi2HSB8TilA38YTtsG18DTPpvEf4q56QhnZiOsak4lnNoepGw89vWtNzsYDTOMWgCFAwFgx6bX8YMy2SdzDeY6KL0HnEt0aRspWb4qZTZZerfQKV8zuYqc5r03vvHombYjDTVZC6VHOoWMefYtFVyAwYV3jbEc%2Bb30kC1Rh4W9Nolw3ZzEOodVQqbgl0H62jjDMBUnah%2Fv%2B0Wrs1miFVkMgAuVvetdjGjbS4ZRUZOmKMJ2OnsyhjLRSQGYup0jk0G58I9gy%2F2CIiI66UUKorwooIrOJ0INTkDwNADC%2FB5zJeaJSmpY0FPdr5xk5SkbfxQX09ESYnxL84lDp8Q%2BYiizxQ093xvEaVJtUDrU3ibH%2FD%2FAJL6UB5EaaQCIpmGxJDjQ4rf3mt94l%2FFMAzNMINbb6T5GAl46%2Bljm4FekRLg1GwhY%2BJm6kowOpTaIUxE5bl6kNTTzAJRssBlhQSdgKx59ju2x1sElqVBoCdzTmLBi8xmlJi6T7pp4WjyvQTepjSEU%2FTPKmqEzuNRbgkmlep2rDXBugVSqmurvVp9KResVJy2SmlTLVqKVZ1NTpNRWo2Nx6wAOzsmbrfDzpJBqyIrjVqsdOk0pzBKVrwrHH12jeX4sihHHWIMTmE55%2Br2Yoqliyj8o97vDmnWF74h5DezmoyuPChh72flvN9poDBnUIuuoVqm9KClQOT1jBRp2buVqhnmWO7gcaddBvTwFS3gIUSpoYl3Ysg8dJc9FHC3F9zAHaLFPJISYtHAIIsb2NCRxQxXBmLuaE%2F50ENY21ZDmkyy5pmbPRfKgGyivdCjjmFeHyt5ruid5hdiKUGqm5NvP1hVNxR1bn%2FN4uPY2XMnJpCaJQJLPW7t0A5oLdBGkY6rhnKWzAW7Gz6WeX4949acAiBW7MYlCDoVwD%2BRqnxsaHiPWZOCQAAV4%2B%2F9olmuii4a%2Bq5%2FtBuxUih4DMdAo%2FcZdiRQU%2BFh08YPk5cHujvLqwcut7gWo1afMekWGZIwcwd4A93kGBpnZDDNX2M10uLK5pfwjJqzsj%2BQnGpIr2fSSbO4cqLNpCk14NDc2jWUTSqaem0MX7JzENVcvuAHPTnV%2FaFc2Q8s6XQr57HyIsYEuUJSTlaGczE1BrHeGmVIhQHrvB2DeGdClwfdn3TDHEO5A9pN1jqV0IAPQ645z3HJipJl10VIKlr1YXXa%2B1YHZtSGgBI4oDX0NjAWElvMUE1Rg1VKADYEbEUHNoqMr4cWSFPYpmMMySxR7dCDUHxB6Qvn48nmPR84wjl1lu0qYhVSRMHfFTY23rfYCKP2ykSZTKsuRp1CuvW5FjQqFJp0%2BcXF3LUiSajtYrlzK3JoOpgtM8SWKIpdupsP3MKJWDmPc91dLMCxCghAC2knelRtDzBdnVqod66qgBBQlvY%2B2WjMLqQQCaWJjXRfTLd%2FAaZ2kxLe6wQf0j9TWF8%2FEO93dmPiSfvBmMy8aJU2WTomh7MQSjI2lgSANQuKGgiBJSrzU9f82ilGK8RLlJ%2BsiSWfKOxhQbVNesTLKLRNKw4BrAxAIrQIODc9T%2B0MMGukim43McYtQGWg97c%2BVOnnBc1wzawiJt3UFF2ptAgMzjDtNIcMzbalrxyVg3DYWRL%2FAJnspwCkEkOtV8aVhfVh7pp0hjgcasxdDgF%2BCYjJF1wuFN9PT8BleGny1mDUQQN9QNacg8xV%2FwDiCgwyIJOrXMbSDWtBTYDrF7wVRLQf0jw4hP2vy5Z2HYkHUneQqaFW6xCSL2k3VnjDy3Qj2lib0Jq1D16ReMx7UK8h5fsmQsgC0vQi1bbQuzbso2lPZqWsNRrUkncmB5MufJR8N7JWrMVy5rXuimkHpT9Ye0WDxzXwiyXP5pnIjuxANqCreVt4u2Kd2AKynd2PvU00HkaRRsBhHSdLdBSaXIoRVQK2vHocrC5iwqZyJ4BSf1gaTJUpRE%2BazXlIzzSyhhp2NzwLVjzeYZimmhuvPMegdscHiElK06eH71lAoK79fCED9phYGTUgAVqOIcbS4ht7esc4%2FLpemZKoWRWoA1yusgkKeANVulBHnoZpZ%2BJQT5%2F2MWqZnvdmPWoYmljYmyg2ptf0iuMAL1r%2FAHgimvTNhqZ5qXRMf2igELrrrWvwvvTwNvKLz2aztJeG1KNTE6ByNQFSe79o8xxMgV1AecMsBjEly3WhDGjKysRRgCBVdjufnBKCfSlJodZ%2FPSejMTqmarmhrqre5392KcyFa08ocZXP1KxY1rUGvW5r9YhxuH3KmnPhc9RCTptDatWQZdKJbSqB3O%2BrYedItuT9pJkiUJYVO5UWBHNd4reHISWWBAYU66qtaoMRtPFIpJSJbovS9uyKa5bAW7ykECnPB%2BkWXA9pkYAgMQbgghlBPkdo8fTFR1TlGZD%2FAEkj7RMsa%2BCUj3OTNkTRsldvhYHoYhnZY696U3%2FaTe21DyY8wyTOn1BJr3vpYmla8V4MW%2BVm%2BJlUr%2FNTSD%2FV84ylGjRSsaJmJDblWB7yPtexp6wxkT5c8FGUVsGVgCLeB3gBMzkYkaZi0YWvZ1rsQfGF2PwU6X%2FNlNrVaH%2BsUsa8N5iJpoqwzH5NLFwlv6SQR6Xr8oQ46V7PvrUrzXdf9XgYs%2BXZos1L2IoP%2FEVP1iPGzmAKkBqWpQGthqN9zekBcZyRUBnGm4MNMhzRsRM0AVUXJ41dPOlYU47KlE1XEslDUlK025A3I8B0h5l2ISXOWcifyfZmoRaaXWxUKLCoA9axSSCU3LhF20mE4gKahJaILprqWqTQ7qNtopOaZijlW7szQTYjukMpUi%2Foa8Ui%2FwA1vbsZ8zUmu4UsKjTZRcW%2FvFE7Y4iR7YCUFYgCuinvX1BiB3jtFxTcrIk0o62KpmYBkmoWYh9BWwJDLQMCa2BC0qK1tBEnGn2kqai6TLRUGti2rQukGgpS3EApIAJJ2rYfvE66jG5gbduNhwBsL1t03jEQAV%2BpjU2YEFW9ANzB7T1nIsv2KItaksC0xqUoQ5Ngb1AAhNtfBpCpsbwg1Hrx%2FeMXBTn95iB0FvoIc%2FhQvu1pGK24IhiOcty1VBBXfk%2F5aMxmBdLrVk68jzH6xMJgHNIJw%2BIqaar%2BdD8jvC8GJ0YkbxE4uG2YQ3xeCuWA33A28wOD4QumS6i14q7EWfsx2mxLu6FgQJbMK7Lp%2FwD2HuG7T%2F8AKe0nkOWbQAn5ido81wWKdCyqaVsT1VhcQRicY6qq2KowOkbEjf7REo9KUi4HNDQprVabgmh9DEeFxRLBCakn3tVTQ9TFcxk6XiTrVgpO4JpSBTP0dxDWu7eHQRhpapHS8tFqx6T5WJljdC4ppFRp6E8GHOE7SOs%2BajkFVBIUC4pFOk59NRU1Akg2Yk7fDQ2PnDfKsxkvOM0nS7LRgeTSM28uOFtXX6DHGORu3X%2BzvtzmQm4eS62qzVHQgR57qEG5rjmd36BjTpvwIV%2B2Mdcf7UcsvS0docMMNhxhwBRmRyeSVS%2F3ivq31hh2mzUYiYNNdCrQE7sdifKFUs2AhRTS6EveBKrqqPvEBkM1gRpU95rhQeB4nwEGphhWrOF8Bc%2BvAg5ZEtlVSrEKDS453O255MTLIolKDYDggiW1Fq9bfIROZbGug1HQ7ER2%2BBlD3VI9TX73%2BUBtrlmq1K9eleDSJ2UvCtXH0LkywysrIB4wPMyXlHPreMlyZjX1UgwF0He2%2B8axVGbdiOfhXTcVHhHMrEUiyMKjaFONwANxvDsVHMucrWMOctzSdK9060pTQ3A8DxFTbUpvBMjHssDjYJ0eqYbF4bEqfyv3bVoymv8Al44d8TIYlCJig7g0bbYrzaPN%2FwAcjnv6lPDKbjxEMsFnbo1DMDgUo%2BzU6H%2B8ZSx14WpF7w2MSY2pKI9SGG2ojw%2FK1LV2MHzMQXQ2o63I6i5p9BFMXOZL95m0OOQDfgbbwT%2FGG0rMVg2kgGnK%2B7U15BiNWVaGL9qFoVdjY6bDv2tVaDu%2Bpis552nZWZZXdOou5vZjWigH%2FUa238oY4eQizS6uCGYsoudBN6HwB%2BYipZll0xZ7K%2B5IYsLhg16g%2BMXCMWyXJrwnkZk8xmaYzsKHYgnVQ6aBrC5HpWIUShLU7x%2BngIIWUAO6oXrT6XNz6mO5EnU2lRVj6C25Ma8RPWRS5RNzHWInKi136U6wdmODSWqfzNT3Lge6o0qV8eTv0hIgM19Rsg2hppq0DWrphGWyy2p3FTUU8B4dIZLSxpcbHp5RAndNOCLDyjNZMAg4PWIJq%2F54RpDa8aZT1gA2taUIqPrHD4Yn3T5dfI9YxXpzEgel9xABDh8yeWdLfIwS7I%2FeQ6TyOK%2BHSOJjI40t6HkQqnI8s9QdiNoAOsQtHNRStIiNAa8GJZuK1LcVpzyB4GBpg46i0AGnRd1YE%2BETYTBvMdUSuomwG%2B1YBlKaxZ%2Bxxf8AEoyLrZKvStNhSv12hN0gXpDj8JOlogmPqH5VJuvmKWhbLm%2B98xF%2B7dT3eSGZCDrBLBSFuCACTHm6vCi7Q3xlp%2FhyvhTOALN0BFviaggzB5bgCik3NLmvMJOzmbezJRydDb03B%2FaF%2BO7sxxLPc1Er5GJdlKhcHieW%2BldXOy%2BfJgaUhYhRuTSGiynBsprsGNAFA%2BEG%2FrFt%2FCUvoHIw7nvEUUndufIbmHcnCsad4gfX%2FPOOZQoKk6m6n9BxHZmH46egiXG%2FR7V4E%2Bw%2FqJ8DQxz7JR723gIgWaw3YH0pEomg2MGqQbMJVUG1420ziBS1L%2FP940zwxHbOBubeMRvQiOGmg7gHzjZfUf22gEA4vDgwomSqQ%2FcwBiEhoGKo3XiJpiCISIoRoGLJkuoqq0qrVBttWtyeNorZEGYXHuilVYhW3pTjp0iZK0NOgqfm01aoGUAMT3UXevBIJp6wOuYuW1P3ydyd%2FmIEN4IkoTWnAh0gsaYTFK%2FdDaG4DEU8q8esTmfNlNqC0IrQ0BFwQacbEwl%2FDV3%2FAMrEyl1FFc06G4hUFneJmlhTYsb%2FAK%2BsFyVCD7f51gMah33ILfl8PGOkYtDEEIxZtRNq7QVUbfaBmlmm9AI2JvSAYSvyiTVAQfxiUOIAJHSv3EcohW6mscsY6WZyPlABtlDf0t9DETTCO64qPGCRNB3EbZVYU3894AE2IlaDVbofp4GOJYB7pvyv7QdOkFK8qd4EeQRdbgXB%2FSACNbRtXKmoJHkaH6Rj%2FF1%2B%2FMY8ugBqDUbdL8wASzMbMZdJd2XehZiKjwJhfP8AP0ienjA8%2BBAT4doL1wtlzImE%2BAR3hVJqRVeC3Ty8ePWD5DEDcnzjIyF9Kfh00yIzNjIyGIxZ0SCc0ZGQASLieDETTOhjUZABFqMTF2IoCoHjuY1GQARux5NYHmPGRkAA5vGMBxGRkAiIpGiLxkZDA7loSQAKkmgA3JMXXKMnkpJLzVdJgE0PrNNLItQNO491hfcnyjUZGWVtUbY0rK%2FiZZQo35XQFD1CkqfW0YifmO3HjGRkWvDJ%2BgsyYWaDMOtIyMhiOMTOJIWDcBlk6dZEJHxGy%2FM%2FpGRkYfkZJY43E1xRUpdHK9mUQVnYhUPIWh%2BsTJg8AttcxyBU6QduthtGRkc34%2B%2BfspP%2FAIdWSMYeJBLZfgrAy8SKio7j3HXaBmwGAJoJ7oejilPMERkZG8sDXk2Ra%2FSI5nZdm70ifLmjpWhhLNRkco4KOtjXaMjIx%2FFzTnleOTJz44xjcToTivvCo6xxMlgd5NuRGRkd5zi2aBUgbG48DyIjVxG4yAkIxGE0KjVU6xUBWqRQ0ow4MBTZVWVepAt4mMjIS8KZAygEjoSL72PMdAjqI3GRRJ%2F%2F2Q%3D%3D&hash=c4616067734801f5b69854f621f532531dde32b6)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: bcsapper on March 13, 2021, 07:50:58 pm
Cops have zero right to not have their feelings hurt.  The only time I think something might be able to be done is if they are screaming in their face where they could damage their hearing, which is kind of assault, or things as I've mentioned like disturbing the peace, which should have a high bar. 

Citizens should be able to protest the government with free speech.  Everyone should have the right to tell an MP or police officer to get effed.

Nobody has any right not to have their feelings hurt.  Everyone should have the right to tell anyone to get effed.

That said, I kinda like the police.  All the ones I've met, anyway.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 07:54:12 pm
Cops have zero right to not have their feelings hurt.  The only time I think something might be able to be done is if they are screaming in their face where they could damage their hearing, which is kind of assault, or things as I've mentioned like disturbing the peace, which should have a high bar. 

Citizens should be able to protest the government with free speech.  Everyone should have the right to tell an MP or police officer to get effed.

No one has the right to stand a foot in front of your face and scream obscenities at you. You don't have the right to do it to a police officer yet that is what happens to them at protests quite regularly.

 Maybe the cop should have the right to deck the son of a **** just like I would as a private citizen.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: bcsapper on March 13, 2021, 07:58:59 pm
No one has the right to stand a foot in front of your face and scream obscenities at you. You don't have the right to do it to a police officer yet that is what happens to them at protests quite regularly.

 Maybe the cop should have the right to deck the son of a **** just like I would as a private citizen.

Yeah, at some point it becomes assault.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2021, 08:11:36 pm
Yeah, at some point it becomes assault.

It is but they get away with it because police don't want to escalate the situation.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2021, 09:05:42 pm
No one has the right to stand a foot in front of your face and scream obscenities at you. You don't have the right to do it to a police officer yet that is what happens to them at protests quite regularly.

 Maybe the cop should have the right to deck the son of a **** just like I would as a private citizen.

Everyone also has a right to personal space.  I guess it depends how close they are and how loud it is.  That law doesn't seem to have anything to do with screaming, but rather provoking cops with profanity and gestures etc, which is a ridiculous law.

If you don't have a right to do it to a police officer then no new laws are needed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 14, 2021, 07:56:08 am
Some people just want to serve their communities.
Among the line of cops crushing the vigil in London to the woman who was murdered by a cop, how many were just serving the community?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 14, 2021, 09:54:14 am
Among the line of cops crushing the vigil in London to the woman who was murdered by a cop, how many were just serving the community?

They were enforcing a court order to uphold Covid laws. I don’t suppose anyone asked them whether they liked the idea of having to do something that would bring out the very reaction you have just displyed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 14, 2021, 10:20:51 am
I'm sure many of the cops were weeping as they dragged the women away.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 14, 2021, 12:38:31 pm
I'm sure many of the cops were weeping as they dragged the women away.

Well, you've made up your mind. Do you think carrying out court orders should be optional for police?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: bcsapper on March 14, 2021, 01:12:32 pm
Well, you've made up your mind. Do you think carrying out court orders should be optional for police?

They should only have to carry them out on balding, burly men with broken noses, scars, and a few tattoos.

Then we wouldn't have these problems.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 14, 2021, 04:33:39 pm
Well, you've made up your mind. Do you think carrying out court orders should be optional for police?

Cops are loyal 1st and foremost to the brotherhood, not the rule of law and not the community.  That's why they didn't grant a permit for these protests and why they never snitch on each other when wrongdoing happens.  They're tyrants.  A good cop who doesn't speak up when they see wrongdoing is not a good cop.  That makes virtually all cops bad cops, because they all value their jobs over their oath.  The ones who don't will resign or their careers are torpedoed.

This world doesn't need more bootlickers.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: bcsapper on March 14, 2021, 04:49:11 pm
Cops are loyal 1st and foremost to the brotherhood, not the rule of law and not the community.  That's why they didn't grant a permit for these protests and why they never snitch on each other when wrongdoing happens.  They're tyrants.  A good cop who doesn't speak up when they see wrongdoing is not a good cop.  That makes virtually all cops bad cops, because they all value their jobs over their oath.  The ones who don't will resign or their careers are torpedoed.

This world doesn't need more bootlickers.

If they had granted a permit for the protests they could all have stayed at home not snitched on each other.  Seems counter productive to me.

That said, I'm not at all sure that those who attended the protest are the ones who didn't issue a permit for it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 14, 2021, 05:25:56 pm
Agreed.  I hate interacting with cops and they seem to instantly recognize me as being overly compliant and thus hate talking to me too.  I don't think I have spent more than 10 seconds at a RIDE stop - they just whisk me through.  They can smell the legality.

Cops love compliance.  Tell them at the RIDE stop you don't answer questions from the state and then see how they react.  Look how sweet these cops are!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlxJHMRzsvM

RIDE stops are tyrannical BS but Canadians love taking it up the anus.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 14, 2021, 05:59:06 pm
Cops are loyal 1st and foremost to the brotherhood, not the rule of law and not the community.  That's why they didn't grant a permit for these protests and why they never snitch on each other when wrongdoing happens.  They're tyrants.  A good cop who doesn't speak up when they see wrongdoing is not a good cop.  That makes virtually all cops bad cops, because they all value their jobs over their oath.  The ones who don't will resign or their careers are torpedoed.

This world doesn't need more bootlickers.

What is it you don't understand about court orders?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 14, 2021, 06:14:53 pm
What is it you don't understand about court orders?

Doesn’t suit his narrative.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 14, 2021, 06:37:46 pm
What is it you don't understand about court orders?

Courts order cops to cover up their own BS?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 14, 2021, 06:56:42 pm
Doesn’t suit his narrative.

I knew you were a boot licker.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 14, 2021, 09:40:54 pm
I knew you were a boot licker.

Dumbass....  protesting is not an absolute right that they get to do against a court order during a pandemic.  Sorry if my opinion actually changes based on relevant information rather than one like your's, which is dogmatic.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 15, 2021, 09:46:06 am
No one has the right to stand a foot in front of your face and scream obscenities at you. You don't have the right to do it to a police officer yet that is what happens to them at protests quite regularly.

Maybe the cop should have the right to deck the son of a **** just like I would as a private citizen.

You'd catch a charge and the person yelling at you would not.

As for the cops getting yelled at, boo hoo.

They were enforcing a court order to uphold Covid laws. I don’t suppose anyone asked them whether they liked the idea of having to do something that would bring out the very reaction you have just displyed.

Only following orders, you say?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on March 16, 2021, 11:41:25 pm
They were enforcing a court order to uphold Covid laws. I don’t suppose anyone asked them whether they liked the idea of having to do something that would bring out the very reaction you have just displyed.
...
Well, you've made up your mind. Do you think carrying out court orders should be optional for police?

They (and the people giving the orders) clearly have some amount of flexibility when it comes to enforcing them, because we saw that the George Floyd protests were allowed to proceed, and a couple of weeks ago the Glasgow Rangers footie fans had a big unlawful celebration and the police didn't do anything about it. It's worth mentioning that the group attempting to organize the vigil, Reclaim The Streets, had attempted to work with police and was rebuffed at every turn.  They went to court to challenge the police interpretation of the laws; the police fought them in court.  That was a foolish move, because not only did people attend the vigil despite Reclaim The Streets cancelling the official event, but the police actions have further inflamed tensions to the point that there have been additional protests every night since.  And, to demonstrate that they do indeed have some leeway, the police have learned their lesson and largely left the protesters alone.

A cynic might propose that the George Floyd protests and the Glasgow Rangers celebrations were allowed to proceed uninterrupted because BLM protestors and football hooligans will kick your ass and set your police cars on fire if you try and stop them, and that the Sarah Everard vigil was not allowed to proceed because women won't kick your ass or set your police car on fire.

But UK women should set some police cars on fire, because UK police have been failing them to an immense degree for a long time. 

We've talked at some length on this forum about sex grooming gangs that operated on a massive scale in the UK for decades, the Rotherham scandal being the most infamous of them.  It was (and still is) hotly argued whether the ethnicity of the offenders was a factor in why these gangs were allowed to operate for so long, but two things are universally agreed on. One is that contempt for the victims (almost all being girls from lower social class) was a factor, and two it was a massive failure of policing.

More recently, the number of prosecutions for r4pe has absolutely nosedived in England and Wales. Since 2016 the number of prosecutions has dropped by over half. In 5 years the number of prosecutions has dropped by over half. That's a stunning result. The number of reports has risen, but the number of cases referred to prosecutors by police has fallen substantially, and the number of cases prosecutors bring to trial has dropped even more dramatically.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/30/convictions-fall-record-low-england-wales-prosecutions
In summer of 2020, the UK Victims' Commissioner,  Dame Vera Baird, wrote a report in which she stated "we are witnessing the decriminalization of r4pe."

It's not just r4pe prosecutions. Here's a Twitter thread by an anonymous UK lawyer describing how hard it is to get a domestic violence case to trial:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1371030760501747712.html

After Sarah Everard disappeared, UK women on Twitter shared their stories about being followed, being groped, being flashed, and having their complaints not investigated, ignored, or laughed at. Perhaps it's the result of a country raised on Benny Hill reruns that minor sexual assault and sexual harassment is viewed by the police as being amusing.  These complaints took on an extra significance when it was learned that the man who was arrested had been named in two indecent exposure complaints just last month.  Were the complaints taken seriously? Were they even investigated? In England, chances of that seem slim.  It will be interesting to find out how the Metropolitan Police handled these complaints against one of their own; it seems like a red flag that could have saved Sarah Everard's life had anyone been paying attention.


While UK police say they lack the manpower and resources to protect women, they do seem to have time and energy to engage in all sorts of virtual signalling activities. Photo sessions with LGBTQ+ activists. Selling merch with Stonewall, the LGBTQ+ organization. Marching in parades, running social media accounts that would compare to anything a Tumblr SJW might come up with. They have even investigated Twitter accounts.  In this case, https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-judge-police-probe-transphobic-tweets-unlawful-68984071 police investigated a man for posting a "transphobic" limerick on Twitter; there are others.  The weekend before Sarah Everard was abducted, police were driving around a billboard van that had the message "Being Offensive Is An Offence" on the side, along with an LGBT Pride flag. (they later issued a statement clarifying that being offensive is not, in fact, an offense.)  It is infuriating that in an environment when prosecution of sexual offenses against women has absolutely cratered compared to even a few years ago, the police can somehow find the time and energy for these inane virtue signalling exercises. Instead of driving around in your little billboard van to falsely tell people that "Being Offensive is an Offence", maybe you should go and work on investigating some actual offenses. Freaking idiots.

To be clear: women in the UK are not saying "Defund the police".  Quite the opposite. Women in the UK are asking "why aren't the police protecting us??"  And to some degree the answer appears to be that budget cuts have reduced their ability to investigate and prosecute criminals.


 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 16, 2021, 11:49:46 pm
...
They (and the people giving the orders) clearly have some amount of flexibility when it comes to enforcing them, because we saw that the George Floyd protests were allowed to proceed, and a couple of weeks ago the Glasgow Rangers footie fans had a big unlawful celebration and the police didn't do anything about it.

Yes.

Wilbur isn't technically wrong about enforcing the law.  But i think we can read between the lines.  The police protect their own.  It is the secret oath they swear that supersedes the actually oath they swear to become officers.  This makes pretty much every cop a tyrant and/or an accomplice to tyrants.  Power and a paycheck corrupts.

Quote
To be clear: women in the UK are not saying "Defund the police".  Quite the opposite. Women in the UK are asking "why aren't the police protecting us??"  And to some degree the answer appears to be that budget cuts have reduced their ability to investigate and prosecute criminals.

Yes.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 17, 2021, 04:29:43 pm

While UK police say they lack the manpower and resources to protect women, they do seem to have time and energy to engage in all sorts of virtual signalling activities. Photo sessions with LGBTQ+ activists. Selling merch with Stonewall, the LGBTQ+ organization. Marching in parades, running social media accounts that would compare to anything a Tumblr SJW might come up with. They have even investigated Twitter accounts.  In this case, https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-judge-police-probe-transphobic-tweets-unlawful-68984071 police investigated a man for posting a "transphobic" limerick on Twitter; there are others.  The weekend before Sarah Everard was abducted, police were driving around a billboard van that had the message "Being Offensive Is An Offence" on the side, along with an LGBT Pride flag. (they later issued a statement clarifying that being offensive is not, in fact, an offense.)  It is infuriating that in an environment when prosecution of sexual offenses against women has absolutely cratered compared to even a few years ago, the police can somehow find the time and energy for these inane virtue signalling exercises. Instead of driving around in your little billboard van to falsely tell people that "Being Offensive is an Offence", maybe you should go and work on investigating some actual offenses. Freaking idiots.

It can't be healthy to be this obsessed.

It's also strange to blame neoliberal austerity measures on police's inability or unwillingness to investigate crimes against women when you see the same thing in other places where the cops haven't lost any funding. IIRC the Globe and Mail did a whole series on how Canadian police agencies DGAF about sexual assault cases.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 17, 2021, 09:38:11 pm
I heard a former prostitute once say the people who mistreat them the most are the police, because they will take advantage of them sexually and few will believe a prostitute over a cop, especially another cop.  It's not like a pimp can retaliate against a cop either.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 18, 2021, 10:22:50 am
White guy goes on a murderous rampage, shoots up a bunch of spas in the Atlanta area, killing 8 people including six Asian women.

Cop goes on TV, says they are ruling out race as a motivator because the suspect said it wasn't and that the killer "had a bad day."

And of course, the cop is a Trumper who blames China for COVID-19.
 (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/spa-shooter-bad-day-racist-facebook)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 18, 2021, 10:47:55 am
Some people just want to serve their communities.

Yeah, they just often have specific ideas of who that community includes and who it does not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 18, 2021, 02:34:08 pm
White guy goes on a murderous rampage, shoots up a bunch of spas in the Atlanta area, killing 8 people including six Asian women.

Cop goes on TV, says they are ruling out race as a motivator because the suspect said it wasn't and that the killer "had a bad day."

And of course, the cop is a Trumper who blames China for COVID-19.
 (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/spa-shooter-bad-day-racist-facebook)

They're saying it might be linked to him having sexual addiction.  Maybe he wanted a rub n tug.  So far this case doesn't make much sense.  Let's hope it's not race related but it doesn't look good.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 18, 2021, 03:19:19 pm
They're saying it might be linked to him having sexual addiction.  Maybe he wanted a rub n tug.  So far this case doesn't make much sense.  Let's hope it's not race related but it doesn't look good.

No, he's saying that and they're parroting him.

Korean-language media interviewed eyewitnesses who said he was shouting that he wantedto "kill all the Asians" but for some reason that hasn't been followed up on in the English language press.

It's certainly in the interests of the cops to position this as a deranged incel driven by sexual frustration instead of examining how the various pathologies on display here might intersect.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on March 18, 2021, 08:38:59 pm
They're saying it might be linked to him having sexual addiction.  Maybe he wanted a rub n tug.  So far this case doesn't make much sense.  Let's hope it's not race related but it doesn't look good.

This guy wasn't having a bad day, the people who got shot were having the bad day.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 18, 2021, 09:15:58 pm
This guy wasn't having a bad day, the people who got shot were having the bad day.

Well obviously I think everyone involved had the worst day of their lives that day, the victims far worse than others.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 18, 2021, 10:34:44 pm
I heard a former prostitute once say the people who mistreat them the most are the police, because they will take advantage of them sexually and few will believe a prostitute over a cop, especially another cop.  It's not like a pimp can retaliate against a cop either.

Your mom is a wise woman...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 18, 2021, 11:08:02 pm
Your mom is a wise woman...

Stay classy!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 09:53:12 am
Well obviously I think everyone involved had the worst day of their lives that day, the victims far worse than others.

You don't think it's a little weird to centre the killer like that?  It's not like cops and media don't have a long track record of treating white violent spree killers like damaged little birds.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 19, 2021, 03:06:46 pm
You don't think it's a little weird to centre the killer like that?  It's not like cops and media don't have a long track record of treating white violent spree killers like damaged little birds.

He said the killer had a bad day.  I don't find that a controversial comment because it's obviously factually correct.  People are reading all sorts of stuff into this.  I honestly have no idea what the intentions of the cop were by that comment and neither do most people.  I just assume him saying he had a bad day he means he had a bad day.  Maybe something in his life happened and he snapped?  He had his "Falling Down" moment.  People will get on someone's back for anything these days.  What a stupid culture we live in.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 03:56:27 pm
He said the killer had a bad day.  I don't find that a controversial comment because it's obviously factually correct.  People are reading all sorts of stuff into this.  I honestly have no idea what the intentions of the cop were by that comment and neither do most people.  I just assume him saying he had a bad day he means he had a bad day.  Maybe something in his life happened and he snapped?  He had his "Falling Down" moment.  People will get on someone's back for anything these days.  What a stupid culture we live in.

Yeah you can't even trivialize the murder of 8 people as a bad day on the part of the killer without people getting in your face about it.

Don't you get tired of this "dumb contrarian" bit?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 19, 2021, 11:04:29 pm
Yeah you can't even trivialize the murder of 8 people as a bad day on the part of the killer without people getting in your face about it.

But you're assuming he was trivializing it.  My problem is in the assumption.  Listen to what he said.  I honestly don't understand what's wrong with what he said.  The sheep are just jumping on him, it's insane.  And I don't even like cops!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USUh8kq352k&t=20s
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 19, 2021, 11:09:23 pm
Don't you get tired of this "dumb contrarian" bit?

Would you like me to be a sheep and just go along with what everyone else says and not make a fuss if I disagree?  I guess I need to become a cog in the machine and get with the official program or else get nailed to a cross.  I bet half the people tweeting their disgust haven't even heard the clip.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 20, 2021, 12:10:19 pm
But you're assuming he was trivializing it.  My problem is in the assumption.  Listen to what he said. I honestly don't understand what's wrong with what he said.  The sheep are just jumping on him, it's insane.  And I don't even like cops!

Would you like me to be a sheep and just go along with what everyone else says and not make a fuss if I disagree?  I guess I need to become a cog in the machine and get with the official program or else get nailed to a cross. I bet half the people tweeting their disgust haven't even heard the clip.

If you don't understand why people have an issue with what he said, maybe you should try to understand it instead of reflexively defending the cop. you might learn something.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on March 20, 2021, 12:42:55 pm
It's obvious he was targeting Asians.  And it's obvious he was targeting women.  Both of those things are clear.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on March 20, 2021, 01:02:13 pm
It can't be healthy to be this obsessed.

Lol, you should talk.  I would think that the ACAB guy, more than anybody else, would be offended at the cops doing feats of performative virtue signaling to "woke-wash" their shitty image.  I would think that the ACAB guy, more than anybody else, would be offended by the blatantly illegal misuse of police resources to harass people for their social media posts. Must be a real moral quandry for you.

(https://i.imgur.com/KcQhYR9.png)

It's also strange to blame neoliberal austerity measures on police's inability or unwillingness to investigate crimes against women when you see the same thing in other places where the cops haven't lost any funding. IIRC the Globe and Mail did a whole series on how Canadian police agencies DGAF about sexual assault cases.

Police funding isn't the only issue, and probably not even the biggest one.   Articles on the topic I saw last week indicated that while r*pe prosecutions in England and Wales had plummeted over the past few years, they've actually increased in Scotland.

Lots of places (Canada, England, the US) are probably grappling with similar issues in the court system.  Our courts are clogged, it takes too long to bring cases to trial, prosecutors don't have time or resources to spend on all the cases being brought to them, and they focus their efforts on the cases with the best chance of convictions.  Lots of cases get pleaded out or just plain dismiss.  Nazir Afzal, who is a big name in UK legal circles-- we talked about him a lot during the Rotherham scandal thread-- said "r*pe cases are the hardest to prosecute, but this just looks like giving up" in reference to the plunge in prosecutions.  I also saw a claim that the Crown Prosecution Service has put an organizational focus on increased winning percentages, and that's another reason why they bring only the strongest r*pe cases to trial.  And, that police are less likely to spend their own resources doing much investigation on cases they think the CPS is just going to dismiss anyway.


 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 21, 2021, 12:09:50 pm
Lol, you should talk.  I would think that the ACAB guy, more than anybody else, would be offended at the cops doing feats of performative virtue signaling to "woke-wash" their shitty image.  I would think that the ACAB guy, more than anybody else, would be offended by the blatantly illegal misuse of police resources to harass people for their social media posts. Must be a real moral quandry for you.

The fact you think I'm defending the cops here instead of simply mocking your monomaniacal obsession with woke culture shows your brain has well and truly been infested with a terminal case of TERFworms.

FTR, I think it's gross when cops try to pretend to give a **** about oppressed communities when they are the tools of oppression, but I also think it's utterly moronic to tie woke-signalling with the police's unwillingness to investigate crimes against women or pretend it represents a huge drain on police resources that would otherwise go to something useful.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on March 24, 2021, 07:43:26 am
It can't be healthy to be this obsessed.

It's also strange to blame neoliberal austerity measures on police's inability or unwillingness to investigate crimes against women when you see the same thing in other places where the cops haven't lost any funding. IIRC the Globe and Mail did a whole series on how Canadian police agencies DGAF about sexual assault cases.
That's because a lot of cops are rapists and serial wife-beaters.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2021, 10:13:48 am
That's because a lot of cops are rapists and serial wife-beaters.

Ding ding ding.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 25, 2021, 11:24:08 am
British cops attack a peaceful protest and meet resistance, claim officers are seriously injured, claims are amplified by the right wing media. A few days later, they quietly withdraw the claims. (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/25/police-retract-claims-that-officers-suffered-broken-bones-at-bristol-protest)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 25, 2021, 02:41:34 pm
These officers should probably be fired if proven guilty, not simply reprimanded.  This is what defending the police should look like, because the RCMP can take over the jurisdiction:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-lethbridge-police-chief-madu-mehdizadeh-deadline-1.5961962
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on March 29, 2021, 08:33:00 pm
The fact you think I'm defending the cops here instead of simply mocking your monomaniacal obsession with woke culture shows your brain has well and truly been infested with a terminal case of TERFworms.

Good work, McDog, you're a credit to the force!

(https://i.imgur.com/lJEKPms.png)


FTR, I think it's gross when cops try to pretend to give a **** about oppressed communities when they are the tools of oppression, but I also think it's utterly moronic to tie woke-signalling with the police's unwillingness to investigate crimes against women or pretend it represents a huge drain on police resources that would otherwise go to something useful.

If the cops were wasting their time on a political cause you didn't approve of, I am 100% sure you wouldn't let them off with a  "meh, it's not a significant drain on police resources so whatever."

When Sheriff Joe was wasting money and man-hours searching for "Obama's real birth certificate", progressives were literally shitting their pants with rage, even though it wasn't a significant drain on department resources.   "Why is Joe Arpaio going on a 'fact-finding mission' to Hawaii" when there are hundreds of untested **** kits in Maricopa County?" is the sort of things progressives were saying.   And I am 100% certain that if the UK cops were marching in a Blue Lives Matter parade or similar, rather than driving around in their "Being offensive is an offense" van or harassing people for posting unwoke things on Twitter, progressives would be equally enraged.  Progressives hate police resources being wasted on political causes... unless it's a political cause they support.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 30, 2021, 09:55:20 am
Good work, McDog, you're a credit to the force!

(https://i.imgur.com/lJEKPms.png)


If the cops were wasting their time on a political cause you didn't approve of, I am 100% sure you wouldn't let them off with a  "meh, it's not a significant drain on police resources so whatever."

When Sheriff Joe was wasting money and man-hours searching for "Obama's real birth certificate", progressives were literally shitting their pants with rage, even though it wasn't a significant drain on department resources.   "Why is Joe Arpaio going on a 'fact-finding mission' to Hawaii" when there are hundreds of untested **** kits in Maricopa County?" is the sort of things progressives were saying.   And I am 100% certain that if the UK cops were marching in a Blue Lives Matter parade or similar, rather than driving around in their "Being offensive is an offense" van or harassing people for posting unwoke things on Twitter, progressives would be equally enraged.  Progressives hate police resources being wasted on political causes... unless it's a political cause they support.

 -k

We love inventing people to get mad at don't we folks?

Hey question for you: how does railing against the SJWs (who, it bears repeating, don't like it when cops appropriate their causes) address male violence against women and police incompetence/complicity in addressing it?

Is it COVID that's done this to you or did the brainworms set in before that?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 14, 2021, 11:02:14 am
Big week for the "bad apples"

Boston police union president was an alleged child molester for years...and the department knew it
 (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/04/10/metro/years-boston-police-kept-secret-union-president-was-an-alleged-child-molester/)
Virgina cops sued after threatening Black serviceman during traffic stop (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/11/us/windsor-virginia-police-stop-army-lieutenant-lawsuit/index.html)
Cop who "accidentally" shot 20 year old was a veteran of nearly 25 years (https://kstp.com/news/bca-identifies-officer-in-daunte-wright-shooting/6073236/)

And then here's what happens to the good apples:

Buffalo Police Officer Cariol Horne fired by the city for trying to stop a fellow officer who put a man in a chokehold gets her pension back (https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/fired-buffalo-police-officer-wins-lawsuit-will-get-her-pension/article_0c481c2c-9c7f-11eb-95ce-db6e32a6c26b.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 14, 2021, 11:19:32 am
I'd say there needs to be accountability, but they already have accountability to the racist structures that have governed America for generations. Burn it to the ground and start over.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 14, 2021, 01:19:37 pm
https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745303997534216?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

This crazy person Congresswoman's solution to these problems:  "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed."

We need people to enforce the law and to defend borders from countries/people who mean us harm.  Yes it can be reformed, there's no other choice.  You just need major reform, and very strict accountability and oversight.  Officers do these things because they are poorly trained and they know they can get away with it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 14, 2021, 02:36:00 pm
https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745303997534216?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

This crazy person Congresswoman's solution to these problems:  "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed."

We need people to enforce the law and to defend borders from countries/people who mean us harm.  Yes it can be reformed, there's no other choice.  You just need major reform, and very strict accountability and oversight. Officers do these things because they are poorly trained and they know they can get away with it.

"We need to do this thing that has been tried over and over again and has failed over and over again."

You can't reform it. You can try to rebuild it but first you need to fire every single cop, dismantle every police union, and disband every department and start all over from scratch.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 14, 2021, 04:16:11 pm
"We need to do this thing that has been tried over and over again and has failed over and over again."

You can't reform it. You can try to rebuild it but first you need to fire every single cop, dismantle every police union, and disband every department and start all over from scratch.

LOL

You’re quite the dreamer. 

You should put world peace on the list while you’re at it...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: bcsapper on April 14, 2021, 07:32:22 pm
It's a shame the video is no longer on YouTube.  Have to make do with the sound.

It's pretty good, except for the impossible bit at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_ryjjeNc5k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 14, 2021, 10:44:43 pm
LOL

You’re quite the dreamer. 

You should put world peace on the list while you’re at it...


I'm saying what needs to be done not that it will be done.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 16, 2021, 10:47:02 am
Chicago oinker shoots 13 year old (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html)

They kill you for not complying, they kill people for complying. I think they just like killing people.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2021, 11:20:41 am
"We need to do this thing that has been tried over and over again and has failed over and over again."

You can't reform it. You can try to rebuild it but first you need to fire every single cop, dismantle every police union, and disband every department and start all over from scratch.

When has there ever been proper oversight, accountability, or training for most police?  It hasn't been tried, it's been pathetic.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2021, 11:29:29 am
Chicago oinker shoots 13 year old (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html)

They kill you for not complying, they kill people for complying. I think they just like killing people.

Some of them do like killing.  Clearly Chauvin is a huge jerk.  Some of them are also scared for their lives and react in fear.  The US isn't Canada.  Everyone has a gun down there, police are shot more than police shoot civilians, and there's a lot more of us for them to shoot than there are cops for us shoot.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 16, 2021, 11:49:01 am
When has there ever been proper oversight, accountability, or training for most police?  It hasn't been tried, it's been pathetic.

Governments have poured millions into training for police, which is what has led us to this point. And any other reforms will be fought tooth and nail.

So clearly, your solution (more training and accountability) is not accounting for something crucial.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2021, 12:08:06 pm
Governments have poured millions into training for police, which is what has led us to this point. And any other reforms will be fought tooth and nail.

So clearly, your solution (more training and accountability) is not accounting for something crucial.

If unions resist you can inform them they will be all fired.  They'll bend. If not, start over.

The training sucks, and the enforcement of that training is even suckier.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 16, 2021, 12:11:07 pm
Some of them do like killing.  Clearly Chauvin is a huge jerk.  Some of them are also scared for their lives and react in fear.  The US isn't Canada.  Everyone has a gun down there, police are shot more than police shoot civilians, and there's a lot more of us for them to shoot than there are cops for us shoot.

I don't think that's true. In 2019 there were 139 police deaths in the line of duty from all causes (including cancer and car accidents). There were more than 1,000 fatal shootings of civilians by police that same year.

Anyway, the problem is cops are trained to be afraid for their lives at all times, which leads them to react as if they are in danger even when they are not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 16, 2021, 12:33:37 pm
Chicago oinker shoots 13 year old (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camera/index.html)

They kill you for not complying, they kill people for complying. I think they just like killing people.
Black people. They like killing black people, even when they're not doing anything wrong. White people can murder a bunch of people and they'll head through a drive-thru for a burger before booking them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 16, 2021, 02:16:21 pm
Anyway, the problem is cops are trained to be afraid for their lives at all times, which leads them to react as if they are in danger even when they are not.

I agree.  But they're also afraid for their lives.  Many of the people they're dealing with are armed.  I'd give the middle finger to a fellow driver in Canada, I don't do it in the US because my Cali friend told me not to.  The stupid gun culture down there is a part of this, and that's never going to change.  They can improve the police but the country is frankly hopeless overall.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on April 16, 2021, 09:32:08 pm
The stupid gun culture down there is a part of this, and that's never going to change.  They can improve the police but the country is frankly hopeless overall.
There's also been about 25 years or more of near constant conditioning of society towards cracking down and getting tough on crime. This pledge is as much a political fixture as lowering taxes and promising a chicken in every pot. Couple that with so-called reality shows and entertainment that glorifies police violence and its no wonder things have gone so sideways.

And to be sure, this is NOT just about race, many parents of mentally compromised kids have the cop talk with them too for the very same reason parents of black kids do.  I'd like to see parents lobbying their schools to introduce the topic in their curriculums.  Much of the most meaningful action taken towards climate change has been achieved by local governments with the express goal of motivating larger governments to follow their example so perhaps we could do the same in this regard.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 18, 2021, 02:13:57 pm
I agree.  But they're also afraid for their lives.  Many of the people they're dealing with are armed.  I'd give the middle finger to a fellow driver in Canada, I don't do it in the US because my Cali friend told me not to.  The stupid gun culture down there is a part of this, and that's never going to change.  They can improve the police but the country is frankly hopeless overall.

The fear that causes cops to shoot first and ask question later is part of cop culture, not a rational response to the prevalence of guns. It's also linked to racist assumptions about Black criminality and fear of the Other that permeates American culture as a whole, but police training is very specifically geared to conditioning cops to treat every interaction with civilians as a potential shoot out.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 18, 2021, 02:51:22 pm
The fear that causes cops to shoot first and ask question later is part of cop culture, not a rational response to the prevalence of guns. It's also linked to racist assumptions about Black criminality and fear of the Other that permeates American culture as a whole, but police training is very specifically geared to conditioning cops to treat every interaction with civilians as a potential shoot out.

I think they're all factors.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 18, 2021, 04:34:39 pm
I think they're all factors.

The point is the notion that police should fear for their lives during every interaction with citizens is fallacious, whereas you seemed to imply it was a justifiable mindset due to the prevalence of guns.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 18, 2021, 04:48:44 pm
The point is the notion that police should fear for their lives during every interaction with citizens is fallacious, whereas you seemed to imply it was a justifiable mindset due to the prevalence of guns.

I never made that point.  My point was that police in the US fear for their lives more than cops in Canada do because of the far higher prevalence of guns in the US.  There's no way this isn't a factor (among others) for why cops seem to be more trigger happy down there.

If I as a Canadian fear for my life more while in the US I don't see why cops wouldn't also.  The gun ownership stats and gun shooting stats are clear.  I don't see how it's not safer to be a cop (or a private citizen) in BC than in California based on the gun stats.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 19, 2021, 10:22:53 am
I never made that point.  My point was that police in the US fear for their lives more than cops in Canada do because of the far higher prevalence of guns in the US.  There's no way this isn't a factor (among others) for why cops seem to be more trigger happy down there.

If I as a Canadian fear for my life more while in the US I don't see why cops wouldn't also.  The gun ownership stats and gun shooting stats are clear.  I don't see how it's not safer to be a cop (or a private citizen) in BC than in California based on the gun stats.

So, again, you think the cops' fears are justifiable?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2021, 02:54:42 pm
So, again, you think the cops' fears are justifiable?

I understand why they're fearful and can be quick on the trigger.  That doesn't justify them shooting people when they shouldn't, like the recent teen in Chicago.  I'm saying the fear makes bad behaviour like this more likely.  Imagine if another cop in the dept was shot the month prior by a kid with a gun and this cop was then overly vigilant due to fear?  There's nowhere as violent as the south of Chicago in Canada.  Chicago had 769 homicides in 2020, Toronto had 71, and both cities are about the same size.

Cops are human and have emotions (fear, hatred, anger etc), and the ones that can't control these emotions do bad things like this, and the fact they get away with it makes it much worse.  In 30 years cops might be AI drones without emotions interfering with enforcement and we'll all be better off.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 20, 2021, 10:40:35 am
I understand why they're fearful and can be quick on the trigger.  That doesn't justify them shooting people when they shouldn't, like the recent teen in Chicago.  I'm saying the fear makes bad behaviour like this more likely.  Imagine if another cop in the dept was shot the month prior by a kid with a gun and this cop was then overly vigilant due to fear?  There's nowhere as violent as the south of Chicago in Canada.  Chicago had 769 homicides in 2020, Toronto had 71, and both cities are about the same size.

Cops are human and have emotions (fear, hatred, anger etc), and the ones that can't control these emotions do bad things like this, and the fact they get away with it makes it much worse.  In 30 years cops might be AI drones without emotions interfering with enforcement and we'll all be better off.

Another part of it is that cops, despite all the rhetoric that they're out there putting their lives on the line to serve and protect, think their lives are more valuable than any civilian, which is why they'd rather shoot than take a second to assess a situation. They even have a little saying about it!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 20, 2021, 04:23:12 pm
Killer cop Derek Chauvin found guilty on all three counts (https://apnews.com/article/derek-chauvin-trial-live-updates-04-20-2021-955a78df9a7a51835ad63afb8ce9b5c1?utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 20, 2021, 04:30:10 pm
Killer cop Derek Chauvin found guilty on all three counts (https://apnews.com/article/derek-chauvin-trial-live-updates-04-20-2021-955a78df9a7a51835ad63afb8ce9b5c1?utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter)

Justice served.

Now to make sure this stuff doesn't happen again.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 20, 2021, 04:56:21 pm
Justice served.

Now to make sure this stuff doesn't happen again.

Agreed, but the reaction from the right wing to this verdict is already showing they consider the police's ability to murder black people without any sort of accountability to be an essential aspect of the job.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 20, 2021, 05:01:21 pm
Agreed, but the reaction from the right wing to this verdict is already showing they consider the police's ability to murder black people without any sort of accountability to be an essential aspect of the job.

What are they saying?

I didn't think he'd get the 2nd degree murder conviction, but I thought he'd get 3rd degree and manslaughter.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 20, 2021, 11:12:03 pm
What are they saying?

I didn't think he'd get the 2nd degree murder conviction, but I thought he'd get 3rd degree and manslaughter.

Here's (https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) a good clearinghouse of their shithousery if you can stomach it.

I expect the right is disappointed for two reasons: #1 being a cop was held accountable for murdering a Black person, which is intended to be a job perk and #2 there's no civil unrest as a result so cops can't get out and beat the **** out of unarmed people, which is another perk.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 21, 2021, 08:59:47 am
I agree.  But they're also afraid for their lives.  Many of the people they're dealing with are armed.
This completely falls apart when you look at how many unarmed, compliant black people in the US and indigenous people in Canada have been murdered by cops over the years. The cops disproportionately escalate their response to violence when they're dealing with people who are not white. I'm sure some of the time they do this unconsciously but the perception of violence and risk is absolutely a racially biased phenomenon. This is what systemic racism means. It's not that individual cops are prejudice; it's that people's skin colour play a role into cops perception of risk whether they're personally aware of it or not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 21, 2021, 09:03:50 am
Another part of it is that cops, despite all the rhetoric that they're out there putting their lives on the line to serve and protect, think their lives are more valuable than any civilian, which is why they'd rather shoot than take a second to assess a situation. They even have a little saying about it!
Their jobs aren't even the deadliest.

Cops are ranked 22nd out of the 25 deadliest jobs in the US.

https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 21, 2021, 09:52:56 am
Columbus cop shoots 16 year old Black girl (https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/columbus-police-show-video-of-officer-fatally-shooting-teen-girl-1.5395723)

It took about 10 seconds for the cop to get out of the car to shoot this kid. Now it's clear from the body cam that she was attacking another girl with a knife, but I'm not sure how firing four shots with the person being attacked in the line of fire was the best approach when he could have physically intervened, but again: it's shoot first and get away with it later.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 21, 2021, 02:42:31 pm
This completely falls apart when you look at how many unarmed, compliant black people in the US and indigenous people in Canada have been murdered by cops over the years. The cops disproportionately escalate their response to violence when they're dealing with people who are not white. I'm sure some of the time they do this unconsciously but the perception of violence and risk is absolutely a racially biased phenomenon. This is what systemic racism means. It's not that individual cops are prejudice; it's that people's skin colour play a role into cops perception of risk whether they're personally aware of it or not.

Here's the stat database on police shootings in the US we can run ourselves:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

In 2019 there were 424 white people shot and killed by police in the US.  Of those 424, 26 were unarmed, and of those 26 there were 19 who were not fleeing the scene at the time of being shot.

In the same year, 252 black people were shot and killed by the police, of those 252 there were 12 who were unarmed, and of those 12 there were 5 who were not fleeing the scene at the time.

Of those shot and killed by police, a higher proportion of those who were unarmed and not fleeing the scene were white.  However Black people make up only 13% of the US population, so a disproportionate amount of black people are getting shot in general.  But a disproportionate amount of blacks also make up those in jail ~50%, including ~50% of all murder convicts being black.  That could mean many things:  blacks commit more crime (due to poverty etc), or racial bias in policing and/or the justice system and/or lack of access to good lawyers due to poverty.

Anyways, it's likely true that cops escalate their response when dealing with black people, especially young black men, similar to how many white people are more nervous walking past a group of young black men late at night than a group of elderly white women, or even a group of elderly black women. That doesn't make it fair or right, but it's the reality of our perceptions and emotions I guess, and is unfortunately backed by generalized statistics of violent crime.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 21, 2021, 03:19:59 pm
Here's the stat database on police shootings in the US we can run ourselves:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

In 2019 there were 424 white people shot and killed by police in the US.  Of those 424, 26 were unarmed, and of those 26 there were 19 who were not fleeing the scene at the time of being shot.

In the same year, 252 black people were shot and killed by the police, of those 252 there were 12 who were unarmed, and of those 12 there were 5 who were not fleeing the scene at the time.

Of those shot and killed by police, a higher proportion of those who were unarmed and not fleeing the scene were white.  However Black people make up only 13% of the US population, so a disproportionate amount of black people are getting shot in general.  But a disproportionate amount of blacks also make up those in jail ~50%, including ~50% of all murder convicts being black.  That could mean many things:  blacks commit more crime (due to poverty etc), or racial bias in policing and/or the justice system and/or lack of access to good lawyers due to poverty.

Anyways, it's likely true that cops escalate their response when dealing with black people, especially young black men, similar to how many white people are more nervous walking past a group of young black men late at night than a group of elderly white women, or even a group of elderly black women. That doesn't make it fair or right, but it's the reality of our perceptions and emotions I guess, and is unfortunately backed by generalized statistics of violent crime.

It's more shoddy interpretation of statistics and poor assessment of risk. As a white male, I'm significantly more likely to be victimized by someone who looks like me than any random Black or Indigenous person.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 21, 2021, 03:49:00 pm
It's more shoddy interpretation of statistics and poor assessment of risk. As a white male, I'm significantly more likely to be victimized by someone who looks like me than any random Black or Indigenous person.

If you were sitting in your car alone at night in an empty parking lot would you be more weary of a group of elderly white women who came up to your car window or a group of young black men?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 21, 2021, 04:26:31 pm
If you were sitting in your car alone at night in an empty parking lot would you be more weary of a group of elderly white women who came up to your car window or a group of young black men?

Speaking of not understanding statistics...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 21, 2021, 05:06:15 pm
Speaking of not understanding statistics...

That's not an answer to my question.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 12:14:32 pm
That's not an answer to my question.

Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 22, 2021, 12:55:30 pm
Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.

Cuz Graham doesn’t own a car?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 12:59:49 pm
Cuz Graham doesn’t own a car?

Because gangs of old ladies don't roam the streets at night and the place I live is like 80% white.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 01:29:27 pm
Extremely good breakdown here (https://bostonreview.net/race-politics-law-justice/alex-vitale-scott-casleton-problem-isnt-just-police%E2%80%94its-politics) of why "better training" or "more accountability" of police isn't enough.

Quote
Politicians, these big city mayors, have embraced and accepted that they’re going to solve their political problems through police, in ways that allow them to avoid any challenges to those local economic elites that are driving these neoliberal transformations. When there is a challenge to the abusiveness of policing, the response can’t interfere with those economic arrangements that are at the center of their power. So instead they generate a whole series of symbolic interventions that are designed to be incapable of addressing the problem substantively.

Seriously read the whole thing.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 01:53:51 pm
Statistically, neither is very likely to happen.

You're dodging the question and refuse to answer because you know the answer doesn't support your narrative.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 22, 2021, 01:58:38 pm
Because gangs of old ladies don't roam the streets at night and the place I live is like 80% white.

You can make up all sorts of fantasy scenarios to support your narrative.... 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 02:02:45 pm
Extremely good breakdown here (https://bostonreview.net/race-politics-law-justice/alex-vitale-scott-casleton-problem-isnt-just-police%E2%80%94its-politics) of why "better training" or "more accountability" of police isn't enough.

Seriously read the whole thing.

I totally agree.  Ultimately the fault is with the mayors and city councilors who turn a blind eye to abuse of power.  If cops abuse their power they are accountable to their sergeants who are their supervisors.  These sergeants are accountable to the Chief of Police.  The Chief's boss is the mayor and the city council.  If everyone in the chain of command turns a blind eye people can get away with things.  Everyone is covering for the next guy and nobody really cares.

I worked at a job where we served the public.  When one of my colleagues did something wrong against a client the client would ask for the supervisor.  The client would complain to the supervisor, but all the supervisors would ALWAYS cover for the employee.  They'd NEVER admit anyone did something wrong even if they did.  It was actually disturbing to me.  It was the same "protect your own" mentality.  There was no accountability.  The client could file a complaint in writing but it never did anything.  There's no justice.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 02:07:53 pm
I'm fairly on board with the idea that the police are a flawed institution that will never accept any real accountability or reform.  The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is how a world without the police would be safer for me or for the majority of the population.   If we disband the police, what happens afterwards?

The people who want to get rid of police and prisons offer this notion of having those institutions replaced with a "community driven" "restorative justice" process where "community stakeholders" would bring the victim and offender together in some sort of mediative process where they would share their feelings and arrive at a mutually beneficial resolution where everybody is "made whole" again and nobody has so go to jail. And it all magically happens without any use of force by the state.  Money the state spends on police and prisons would be spent on social programs that eradicate poverty and mental illness. It all sounds wildly idealistic and improbable to me.

There's a new buzzword going around called "transformative justice", which as far as I can tell is exactly the same as "restorative justice" except that it's "victim centered" and instead of "making whole" the victim and offender, they are instead "transformed" into better versions of themselves. It all sounds like fantasy.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 02:10:24 pm
You can make up all sorts of fantasy scenarios to support your narrative....

You know I'm right, and so does black dog.  You guys don't have to say it, just keep dodging questions you don't want to answer and i'll already know your answer.

An old white lady comes knocking at your door late at night and most people, including you, aren't going to be as nervous to open your door compared to if it was a young white man or young black man  Cops make the same threat assessments and yes do stereotype people.  That doesn't mean its right to pull over young black men just because they look "suspicious".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 02:18:41 pm
I'm fairly on board with the idea that the police are a flawed institution that will never accept any real accountability or reform.  The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is how a world without the police would be safer for me or for the majority of the population.   If we disband the police, what happens afterwards?

The people who want to get rid of police and prisons offer this notion of having those institutions replaced with a "community driven" "restorative justice" process where "community stakeholders" would bring the victim and offender together in some sort of mediative process where they would share their feelings and arrive at a mutually beneficial resolution where everybody is "made whole" again and nobody has so go to jail. And it all magically happens without any use of force by the state.  Money the state spends on police and prisons would be spent on social programs that eradicate poverty and mental illness. It all sounds wildly idealistic and improbable to me.

There's a new buzzword going around called "transformative justice", which as far as I can tell is exactly the same as "restorative justice" except that it's "victim centered" and instead of "making whole" the victim and offender, they are instead "transformed" into better versions of themselves. It all sounds like fantasy.

 -k

You can have more "restorative justice" but you still need police.  With guns.  Maybe you can have fewer guns, but you don't bring flowers to a gun fight.  These proposals are from compassionate but naive and idealistic people who sing John Lennon's "Imagine" while smoking the BC bud but don't understand these things don't actually work in real-life, it's fantasy.  There's no data to support these ideas.  You give some people an inch and they'll take it, some people are just jerks.  If the punishment for murder and theft is sitting around apologizing to the victims, murders and thefts will increase.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 22, 2021, 02:35:00 pm
Am I scared. Of a group of whites, or a group of blacks?   Well, I can tell you definitively that whiteys are way more apt to be biker gangs here than any minority...  might be different in Surrey, or different in Richmond as to who the dangerous ones are...  but making up fantasy scenarios about groups of black people doesn’t prove anything...

Actually, it probably shows more about your prejudices than anything else...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 02:56:37 pm
You're dodging the question and refuse to answer because you know the answer doesn't support your narrative.

I mean if you have to invent fantasy scenarios to show why you think it's ok for people to be racist IDK what to tell you. It certainly says nothing about the world we actually live in.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 02:57:08 pm
I'm fairly on board with the idea that the police are a flawed institution that will never accept any real accountability or reform.  The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is how a world without the police would be safer for me or for the majority of the population.   If we disband the police, what happens afterwards?

Did you read the article I posted above?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 03:03:52 pm
Did you read the article I posted above?

The one that says "The problem isn't just police, it's politics"?  Not yet.  Does it talk about what happens after the police are disbanded?

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 03:06:08 pm
The one that says "The problem isn't just police, it's politics"?  Not yet.  Does it talk about what happens after the police are disbanded?

 -k

Yes.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 03:54:43 pm
Yes.

Okay, I read it. It rests heavily on the claim that "police don't prevent crime" and some study showing that relative levels of police presence didn't have a dramatic effect on crime rates.  But here's what no study can examine empirically:

Quote
(As the police scholar David Bayley put it in his 1994 book Police for the Future, “The police do not prevent crime. This is one of the best kept secrets of modern life. Experts know it, the police know it, but the public does not know it.”)

You can study what effect you see from increasing or decreasing police presence have on crime rates, but you can't account for what effect it would have on people's behavior if they knew the police were no longer there. 

Aside from that, the bulk of the interview is just talking about social good that could be done if more money were devoted to social programs and mental health services. And I agree with those things.  But I think that the premise that since changes to the relative amount of policing hasn't resulted in dramatic changes to the crime rate we could do away with police altogether without any consequences is unfounded.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 04:18:00 pm
Okay, I read it. It rests heavily on the claim that "police don't prevent crime" and some study showing that relative levels of police presence didn't have a dramatic effect on crime rates.  But here's what no study can examine empirically:

You can study what effect you see from increasing or decreasing police presence have on crime rates, but you can't account for what effect it would have on people's behavior if they knew the police were no longer there. 

Aside from that, the bulk of the interview is just talking about social good that could be done if more money were devoted to social programs and mental health services. And I agree with those things.  But I think that the premise that since changes to the relative amount of policing hasn't resulted in dramatic changes to the crime rate we could do away with police altogether without any consequences is unfounded.

 -k

Dude literally says we don't know what those consequences would be, but if doing away with policing as it is currently constituted is accompanied by a significant increase in resources to eliminate the causes of crime, why would you expect crime to go up unless you think everyone around you is secretly a monster whose base urges are only held in check by the threat of state violence?

He also contends that the issue isn't having some body to maintain order and enforce laws, but the nature of modern policing and society itself.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 05:10:19 pm
If anyone wonders why cops seem to regard their role as that of an occupying military force, here's (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/) an article about one of the foremost police training "experts" that explains how that mindset comes to be.

Here's (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1385012391025381377) an insane twitter thread of Grossman in action.

It's bonkers.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on April 22, 2021, 05:39:16 pm
Dude literally says we don't know what those consequences would be, but if doing away with policing as it is currently constituted is accompanied by a significant increase in resources to eliminate the causes of crime, why would you expect crime to go up unless you think everyone around you is secretly a monster whose base urges are only held in check by the threat of state violence?

I don't think everyone around me is secretly a monster held in check only by fear of state violence. I think that some unknown but not insignificant portion of people around me are pretty much animals whose behavior is held in check by fear of consequences rather than by any inherent moral decency.  As it stands, state authority is probably the main kind of consequence holding those people in check.   Propose me an alternative kind of consequence other than "everybody packing a gun", and I'd be more open to the idea of dispensing with the police.

He also contends that the issue isn't having some body to maintain order and enforce laws, but the nature of modern policing and society itself.

Okay, so he'd like to replace the police with some other public body that maintains order and enforces laws but isn't the police?

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 06:46:23 pm
Dude literally says we don't know what those consequences would be, but if doing away with policing as it is currently constituted is accompanied by a significant increase in resources to eliminate the causes of crime, why would you expect crime to go up unless you think everyone around you is secretly a monster whose base urges are only held in check by the threat of state violence?

He also contends that the issue isn't having some body to maintain order and enforce laws, but the nature of modern policing and society itself.

"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

Not everyone is a monster obviously, the problem is there's still many jerks out there and that will never change, no matter how much you reduce poverty and increase mental health services etc.  You can help reduce some of the causes of crime, like poverty, but you'll never eliminate all crime, ever.  For every nice law-abiding person living in your neighbourhood you're going to have arse-hats too.  If there's no cops enforcing speeding, what % of cars do you think would speed?  Every time I see a cop on the highway I see every car around me slow down.

I've had wonderful neighbours in my life, and I've also had neighbours who acted like the scum of the earth with no respect for anyone, and it had nothing to do with poverty or mental health (though yes these problems do increase crime).  We don't disband the military because we hope we can turn every world leader into an Obama by being nice to them, because the Hitler's and Putin's will take every inch you give them and only care about advancing their interests because they just don't care.

The idea of disbanding the police in favour of social programs etc is so illogical that it will never be done on a wide scale because it simply won't work.  So it comes down to how can we make police the most accountable as possible and actually serve the public and honour their oaths.  There will always be racists and power-mongers among the police no matter what, but we can minimize the damage they do via training and accountability etc so that they're not able to get away with it and lose their jobs or are put in jail.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 06:51:42 pm
Cities in Canada like Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto etc don't even have their police wearing body cameras.  This is how much the cities and mayors cares about accountability and the rule of law.  They're too cheap to buy the police cameras.  They don't care if they get away with abuse of power.

You never even heard anything about it until George Floyd, which put pressure on municipalities.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on April 22, 2021, 09:15:13 pm
I'm fairly on board with the idea that the police are a flawed institution that will never accept any real accountability or reform.  The part I have a hard time wrapping my head around is how a world without the police would be safer for me or for the majority of the population.   If we disband the police, what happens afterwards?

 -k
I doubt this will be the end result and the original idea behind the term 'de-fund' alluded to diverting some of the money dedicated to policing to an alternative and supplemental force. Personally I think that should take the form of unarmed psychiatric first responders partnered with conventionally armed police.  People who are more accountable to health authorities than police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 09:21:41 pm
I don't think everyone around me is secretly a monster held in check only by fear of state violence. I think that some unknown but not insignificant portion of people around me are pretty much animals whose behavior is held in check by fear of consequences rather than by any inherent moral decency.  As it stands, state authority is probably the main kind of consequence holding those people in check.   Propose me an alternative kind of consequence other than "everybody packing a gun", and I'd be more open to the idea of dispensing with the police.

Okay, so he'd like to replace the police with some other public body that maintains order and enforces laws but isn't the police?

If you consider the modern policing model as less a crime fighting/solving one and more of what it actually is (ie a tool for raising revenue, protecting capital, preserving social and racial hierarchies through force and facilitating exploitation) then replacing it with a different model that actually does what people think the cops do now could effectively combat whatever crime persists in a society where the majority of people are able to have their social, physical and economic needs met.

The idea that we need to preserve what is increasingly a hostile occupying force because you can't envision an alternative is not just a failure of imagination, but an act of cowardice.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 22, 2021, 09:28:55 pm
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of man will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

Not everyone is a monster obviously, the problem is there's still many jerks out there and that will never change, no matter how much you reduce poverty and increase mental health services etc.  You can help reduce some of the causes of crime, like poverty, but you'll never eliminate all crime, ever.  For every nice law-abiding person living in your neighbourhood you're going to have arse-hats too.

What's the ratio of asshats to law abiders? Evidence has shown the majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by a small number of persistent violent offenders; it seems unlikely to me that there is a significant number of people who would **** and murder but for the fact that they know the cops are out there somewhere, certainly not enough to justify the exorbitant economic and social costs of modern policing.

I mean if the concern is getting rid of the police would result in violent gangs roaming the streets who are accountable to no one, I have bad news for you about who the police are.

Quote
If there's no cops enforcing speeding, what % of cars do you think would speed?  Every time I see a cop on the highway I see every car around me slow down.

Why do you need some juiced up prick with a gun to enforce speed limits?

Quote
The idea of disbanding the police in favour of social programs etc is so illogical that it will never be done on a wide scale because it simply won't work.  So it comes down to how can we make police the most accountable as possible and actually serve the public and honour their oaths.  There will always be racists and power-mongers among the police no matter what, but we can minimize the damage they do via training and accountability etc so that they're not able to get away with it and lose their jobs or are put in jail.

The vision of the Defund movement may be utopian, but it is far more realistic than your notion that we can make the police accountable while maintaining the existing model, or that the issues with police are down to a few "bad apples." Frankly, it's a f**king joke.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 10:57:10 pm
I mean if the concern is getting rid of the police would result in violent gangs roaming the streets who are accountable to no one, I have bad news for you about who the police are.

If you remove the police there would be a power vacuum, and it would be filled with criminals/gangs, and also local militias of private citizens carrying guns, and vigilantes/hitmen, and everyone buying a gun for their own protection.  Either way, yes there's going to be people roaming the streets with guns no matter what, and I'd prefer they at least be someone accountable.  I'd rather Canada not turn into Somalia where the rule of law was non-existent for a long period and society was ruled by competing warlords.

Quote
Why do you need some juiced up prick with a gun to enforce speed limits?

If there's no cops why would anyone obey any laws?  Are they just suggestions?  Why would I pay a speeding ticket?  Who's going to make me?  What is the punishment for unpaid speeding tickets?   Unfiled tax returns?  Who would force me to go to court?  People could just buy a gun and steal cars or rob stores for a living, who will stop them?

Quote
The vision of the Defund movement may be utopian, but it is far more realistic than your notion that we can make the police accountable while maintaining the existing model, or that the issues with police are down to a few "bad apples." Frankly, it's a f**king joke.

Have we ever tried to make police more accountable?  I just don't see it.  It happened with Chauvin, and he got convicted.  The police chief even testified against him, the thin blue line was broken.  Have we ever REALLY tried to reform the system?  And I agree that maybe reform isn't possible and they have to fire all the cops and rehire and train a new group from scratch with new oversight and training.

Also I never said there's just a few bad apples, there's lots of bad apples that get away with a lot of BS and others who say nothing because if they did they'd be harassed by other cops as a narc.   The system doesn't work.  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/what-police-departments-do-whistle-blowers/613687/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 23, 2021, 06:47:27 am
Am I scared. Of a group of whites, or a group of blacks?   Well, I can tell you definitively that whiteys are way more apt to be biker gangs here than any minority...  might be different in Surrey, or different in Richmond as to who the dangerous ones are...  but making up fantasy scenarios about groups of black people doesn’t prove anything...

Actually, it probably shows more about your prejudices than anything else...
The real racism is in the implication of the question. When he thinks about blacks, he thinks about kids in gangs. When he thinks about whites, he thinks about knitting church ladies. He doesn't think about white biker gangs or white supremacist gangs for white people and he's not thinking about black entrepreneurs in suits. And that there is the rub. The scenario as presented was dripping with implied racism and he doesn't even realize it, nor will he admit it and apologize now that I've made it clear. When a compliant 16 year old child is murdered by the police and a literal white murderer is brought out for chicken nuggets before being booked in....it isn't about risk. Not one bit.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 23, 2021, 06:50:16 am
Dude literally says we don't know what those consequences would be, but if doing away with policing as it is currently constituted is accompanied by a significant increase in resources to eliminate the causes of crime, why would you expect crime to go up unless you think everyone around you is secretly a monster whose base urges are only held in check by the threat of state violence?

He also contends that the issue isn't having some body to maintain order and enforce laws, but the nature of modern policing and society itself.
It's also interesting to go back and look at the advent of policing, which was literally to harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed. Rather than address the sources of those problems, they punish people who suffer from them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 23, 2021, 07:04:27 am
If anyone wonders why cops seem to regard their role as that of an occupying military force, here's (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/02/dave-grossman-training-police-militarization/) an article about one of the foremost police training "experts" that explains how that mindset comes to be.

Here's (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1385012391025381377) an insane twitter thread of Grossman in action.

It's bonkers.
Years ago I worked at a bookstore and we sold a **** ton of his book On Killing. Granted, there's a huge military base near me. But that should tell you that this isn't a uniquely American issue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 23, 2021, 08:39:59 am
If you remove the police there would be a power vacuum, and it would be filled with criminals/gangs, and also local militias of private citizens carrying guns, and vigilantes/hitmen, and everyone buying a gun for their own protection.  Either way, yes there's going to be people roaming the streets with guns no matter what, and I'd prefer they at least be someone accountable.  I'd rather Canada not turn into Somalia where the rule of law was non-existent for a long period and society was ruled by competing warlords.

Sorry but this is insane. Like, I'm kind of in awe of just how insane it is.

Quote
If there's no cops why would anyone obey any laws?  Are they just suggestions?  Why would I pay a speeding ticket?  Who's going to make me?  What is the punishment for unpaid speeding tickets?   Unfiled tax returns?  Who would force me to go to court?  People could just buy a gun and steal cars or rob stores for a living, who will stop them?

Your assuming here that all we're doing is removing the police and that's it, which shows you haven't paid any attention to the proposals at all.

Also you didn't answer my question as to why we need a juiced up prick with a gun to enforce traffic laws or civil violations.

Quote
Have we ever tried to make police more accountable?  I just don't see it.

They've poured millions into "bias training", body cameras, civilian review boards. Nothing works because the problem isn't a few bad cops.

Quote
It happened with Chauvin, and he got convicted.  The police chief even testified against him, the thin blue line was broken.

One cop was sacrificed to preserve the system.

Quote
Have we ever REALLY tried to reform the system?  And I agree that maybe reform isn't possible and they have to fire all the cops and rehire and train a new group from scratch with new oversight and training.

That's... exactly what I've been talking about? A new body with a different mandate, training, culture and vastly different responsibilities.

Quote
Also I never said there's just a few bad apples, there's lots of bad apples that get away with a lot of BS and others who say nothing because if they did they'd be harassed by other cops as a narc.  The system doesn't work.  https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/what-police-departments-do-whistle-blowers/613687/

Yet you insist that the system is reformable as-is. Seems weird!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 23, 2021, 08:42:34 am
Years ago I worked at a bookstore and we sold a **** ton of his book On Killing. Granted, there's a huge military base near me. But that should tell you that this isn't a uniquely American issue.

I read it waaaay back in the day and thought it was interesting from a military nerd standpoint but it's pretty shocking to see domestic police forces adopt his ideas.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 23, 2021, 10:31:49 am
I read it waaaay back in the day and thought it was interesting from a military nerd standpoint but it's pretty shocking to see domestic police forces adopt his ideas.
And why not...since they've adopted military hardware. Police are not a military but the lines are being blurred more and more. Citizens are not enemy combatants, but again, cops are being trained to see and treat them as such. Meanwhile, they have a fraction of the obligations of military personnel and far less training.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 23, 2021, 10:59:37 am
(https://i.redd.it/e3sugqx41xu61.jpg)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 23, 2021, 02:06:23 pm
The real racism is in the implication of the question. When he thinks about blacks, he thinks about kids in gangs. When he thinks about whites, he thinks about knitting church ladies. He doesn't think about white biker gangs or white supremacist gangs for white people and he's not thinking about black entrepreneurs in suits. And that there is the rub. The scenario as presented was dripping with implied racism and he doesn't even realize it, nor will he admit it and apologize now that I've made it clear. When a compliant 16 year old child is murdered by the police and a literal white murderer is brought out for chicken nuggets before being booked in....it isn't about risk. Not one bit.

LOL what a joke.  Way to take everything I said out of context so you can virtue signal.  Your smug self-righteousness is noted.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 23, 2021, 02:08:20 pm
It's also interesting to go back and look at the advent of policing, which was literally to harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed. Rather than address the sources of those problems, they punish people who suffer from them.

Police were created with the sole purpose to " harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed"?  LOL what nonsense.  I'm sure it was part of their M.O., but it wasn;t their raison d'etre  Please post evidence for this claim.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 23, 2021, 02:17:59 pm
Sorry but this is insane. Like, I'm kind of in awe of just how insane it is.

Why?  Please explain.  They removed the Saddam regime in Iraq and it turned into a den of insurgents and terrorists.  There was a power vacuum and these vacuums are typically filled by someone else.  Restorative justice alone won't work, is my point.  It's insane.

Quote
Your assuming here that all we're doing is removing the police and that's it, which shows you haven't paid any attention to the proposals at all.

This is a strawman.  My response was based on the proposal of getting rid of the police and having restorative justice with social workers etc replace cops and more funding to help reduce poverty and mental illness.  You need cops of some kind.  People with guns to stop other people with guns.

Quote
They've poured millions into "bias training", body cameras, civilian review boards. Nothing works because the problem isn't a few bad cops.

I never said it was a few bad cops, ever.  Yes the problem goes beyond these things.  Body cameras and smartphone cameras have helped a lot, but they don't solve the problem because oversight doesn't work if accountability is weak.

Quote
That's... exactly what I've been talking about? A new body with a different mandate, training, culture and vastly different responsibilities.

So you agree that getting rid of police altogether, having nobody to enforce laws with guns, and only have restorative justice and funding for poverty and mental illness is not enough for any system to prevent crime, and that some people wit guns are necessary as long as they are trained and held accountable?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 23, 2021, 03:25:32 pm
Why?  Please explain.  They removed the Saddam regime in Iraq and it turned into a den of insurgents and terrorists.  There was a power vacuum and these vacuums are typically filled by someone else.  Restorative justice alone won't work, is my point.  It's insane.

Gee I dunno know man because we're not a failed state or one ruled with an iron fist by a dictator?

And anyway your line about "restorative justice alone won't work" is dumb because literally no one is saying restorative justice is the only thing we should do.

Quote
This is a strawman.  My response was based on the proposal of getting rid of the police and having restorative justice with social workers etc replace cops and more funding to help reduce poverty and mental illness.  You need cops of some kind.  People with guns to stop other people with guns.

OK, let's say that's true: who gives a s**t? The point you continue to ignore is that 90% of of what cops today has f**k all to do with "stopping people with guns" and can be offloaded to other services better equipped to do them. it's weird that you have such a dim view of cops and yet have completely internalized their propaganda about the role they play in our society.

Quote
I never said it was a few bad cops, ever.  Yes the problem goes beyond these things.  Body cameras and smartphone cameras have helped a lot, but they don't solve the problem because oversight doesn't work if accountability is weak.

And how do you wave a magic wand and make an institution that has walled itself off from oversight and accountability suddenly better? Because any politician that threatened to fire the cops would soon find themselves out of a job. Or dead.

Quote
So you agree that getting rid of police altogether, having nobody to enforce laws with guns, and only have restorative justice and funding for poverty and mental illness is not enough for any system to prevent crime, and that some people wit guns are necessary as long as they are trained and held accountable?

I don't think anyone has suggested that you wouldn't need anyone to enforce laws against, say, violent offenders. Read my posts in this thread for crying out loud, I go on about that extensively.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 23, 2021, 06:19:01 pm
And anyway your line about "restorative justice alone won't work" is dumb because literally no one is saying restorative justice is the only thing we should do.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CN-l3NJBZSS/

Quote
OK, let's say that's true: who gives a s**t? The point you continue to ignore is that 90% of of what cops today has f**k all to do with "stopping people with guns" and can be offloaded to other services better equipped to do them. it's weird that you have such a dim view of cops and yet have completely internalized their propaganda about the role they play in our society.

I'm fine with offloading some tasks to people without guns.  I'm just saying that sometimes guys with guns are needed.

Quote
And how do you wave a magic wand and make an institution that has walled itself off from oversight and accountability suddenly better? Because any politician that threatened to fire the cops would soon find themselves out of a job. Or dead.

I think we voters have to insist mayors and city councilors keep them accountable.  Break the unions, or whatever needs to be done.  We probably agree more than we disagree on this.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 28, 2021, 08:58:19 am
LOL what a joke.  Way to take everything I said out of context so you can virtue signal.  Your smug self-righteousness is noted.
I clearly articulated how and why it was a racist assumption and you can't own up to it. That's on you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: cybercoma on April 28, 2021, 08:59:42 am
Police were created with the sole purpose to " harass and institutionalize the homeless and unemployed"?  LOL what nonsense.  I'm sure it was part of their M.O., but it wasn;t their raison d'etre  Please post evidence for this claim.
Look into it. This is common historical knowledge.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 21, 2021, 07:55:40 pm
Cops aren't people.

Video shows police taunting man before he died in jail (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/05/21/william-jennette-tennessee-jail-death-video/)

Quote
As he made a final plea for help, the video shows, Jennette said, “I’m good.”

“No, you ain’t good, you’re going to lay right there for a f---ing minute,” an officer angrily replied.

Rather than checking on Jennette’s condition, one officer asked another if she was okay, the suit alleges. She mockingly repeated Jennette’s plea — “I can’t breathe!” — while her colleague laughed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 27, 2021, 10:12:44 am
https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/05/26/i-might-die-today-eps-officers-caught-moving-home-security-cameras-woman-calls-911-on-cops/amp/

I really hope these officers are held to account. 

But why do I have the feeling that this will just be brushed aside?

Quote
While on hold, the woman inside the home saw the female officer moving her security cameras to face another direction. That’s when she dialed 911. She says she was scared of what could happen next.

“I might die today,” she recounted. “I actually texted a couple of people. I said, ‘this happened, just remember that, and that might be it.”


She says one officer then tried to kick down her back door. Photos sent to CityNews purportedly show dents and cracks on the doors, and a split door frame.

The homeowner says the officers left the area after she spoke to the 911 operator.

She says she later contacted EPS and was told it was a “wellness check” but the Service refused to tell her who exactly made the call.

Criminal lawyer Tom Engel tells CityNews he believes this was not proper police protocol.


“No. In fact, I would think it’s criminal behaviour on the part of the police,” said Engel. “They are interfering with private property, which is the crime of mischief to private property. And they are obviously trying to make sure there is no independent audio/video record of what they are doing, and that’s obstruction of justice.

“It should be investigated as a criminal offence.”
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Dia on May 27, 2021, 12:44:28 pm
https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/05/26/i-might-die-today-eps-officers-caught-moving-home-security-cameras-woman-calls-911-on-cops/amp/

I really hope these officers are held to account. 

But why do I have the feeling that this will just be brushed aside?

That's pretty bizarre.  Here's another bizarre wellness check, from Kelowna in 2020:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/kelowna-rcmp-surveillance-video-wellness-check-lawsuit-1.5623215. 

Officer's story is that the individual had a history of suicide attempts, so when she found the individual on the floor of the bathroom, surrounded by pills, an empty wine bottle, cuts on her body and a box cutter in her hand, the officer concluded the best course of action would be to handcuff her and literally drag her out of the apartment, down a hallway, to the cop car to transport her to hospital.  Her excuse for this behavior was because she wasn't sure emergency responders would be able to access the building, begging the question of how the police officer gained access and why emergency responders wouldn't be able to do the same.  The video is pretty disturbing to watch. 

The officer in this lawsuit has had two additional lawsuits filed against her, though one at least was disallowed because it passed a time limitation.



Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2021, 12:51:46 pm
Police taze 17 year old for vaping (https://twitter.com/DrRJKavanagh/status/1404220794096455684?s=20)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 14, 2021, 01:02:55 pm
Police taze 17 year old for vaping (https://twitter.com/DrRJKavanagh/status/1404220794096455684?s=20)

Looks like unwarranted assault by the police to me.  But it would be nice to see the full video.  Unless they had reasonable suspicion he had a weapon or something, or had been previously violent in the encounter, I don't see how the taze is appropriate.  They seemed to taze when he reached for his backpack.

The real question is why did they have the tazers drawn at all?  That's only appropriate if there's some kind of threat or continued refusal to comply with lawful orders.  I didn't see him NOT complying in that clip, but we don't have the full encounter.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on June 18, 2021, 08:02:18 am
This is fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jrnhaLzCqA
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 21, 2021, 11:46:03 am
This is fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jrnhaLzCqA

You think that's bad wait until you hear about wage theft.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 01:28:01 pm
You think that's bad wait until you hear about wage theft.

You need to learn the difference between police and private security.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 21, 2021, 01:31:12 pm
You need to learn the difference between police and private security.

I wasn't talking about the guy in the video, dude.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 01:38:15 pm
I wasn't talking about the guy in the video, dude.

Then why post the video?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 21, 2021, 01:59:44 pm
Then why post the video?

I didn't post the video.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 06:57:41 pm
I didn't post the video.
It was in your post as well.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 21, 2021, 09:29:12 pm
This is fun...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jrnhaLzCqA

The West coast is a far-left wuss factory.  That goes for much of BC too, sorry guys don't shoot the messenger.  #GreenParty2021.

They should find that robber and give him a free house and then tuck him into bed and give him a good cuddle.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 09:51:13 am
It was in your post as well.

I was quoting MH. Do you even know how this board works?

Anyway, if you're confused about why MH posted the video, the meaning of my response or how it all ties to the topic, here's (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-shoplifting-video/) a little explainer
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 09:52:15 am
The West coast is a far-left wuss factory.  That goes for much of BC too, sorry guys don't shoot the messenger.  #GreenParty2021.

They should find that robber and give him a free house and then tuck him into bed and give him a good cuddle.

Yeah a real man would tackle the guy and put his own health and safety on the line for CVS's profits.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 11:43:35 am
It's a funny video, I just don't know why it was on this topic.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 11:44:30 am
Yeah a real man would tackle the guy and put his own health and safety on the line for CVS's profits.

Why is he there?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 12:11:05 pm
It's a funny video, I just don't know why it was on this topic.

Because dumb dumbs in the States are using it as an example of what happens when you defund the police even though it has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 12:11:18 pm
Why is he there?

Why is who where?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 01:17:58 pm
Why is who where?
The security guy?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 01:41:33 pm
The security guy?

Well, I think the idea is having a security guard will deter some theft but if a guy is brazen enough like the guy in the video you can't expect them to put their skin on the line.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 02:49:08 pm
Well, I think the idea is having a security guard will deter some theft but if a guy is brazen enough like the guy in the video you can't expect them to put their skin on the line.

So why not just dress up one of their own employees in security garb instead of hiring security companies? What is he getting paid for?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2021, 04:06:40 pm
So why not just dress up one of their own employees in security garb instead of hiring security companies? What is he getting paid for?

I agree, private security firms are dumb, but i also don't expect some schlub making like 30 grand a year to physically intervene to deal with a guy who could very well be packing heat in a pharmacy over a bunch of stolen toothbrushes when cops are pulling down three times that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 22, 2021, 04:58:35 pm
I agree, private security firms are dumb, but i also don't expect some schlub making like 30 grand a year to physically intervene to deal with a guy who could very well be packing heat in a pharmacy over a bunch of stolen toothbrushes when cops are pulling down three times that.

What's the point of having them then?  To call the cops when a robbery happens?  Couldn't a cashier do that?

He could have at least tried a little harder to take back the stolen merch, as in tried at all.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2021, 05:08:43 pm
Generally, they are there to, perhaps, provide a deterrent, and as witnesses to any crimes that take place.  They’re not there to intervene. 

A - they get paid squat.  These security companies are not hiring ex cops, or even bar-bouncers, as their security.  Often, they are unskilled people who lack skills to get other employment.

B - they have nearly no training in dealing with a physical altercation

If they try and intervene, they are more than likely to just get their asses beat.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 23, 2021, 09:52:17 am
Generally, they are there to, perhaps, provide a deterrent, and as witnesses to any crimes that take place.  They’re not there to intervene. 

A - they get paid squat.  These security companies are not hiring ex cops, or even bar-bouncers, as their security.  Often, they are unskilled people who lack skills to get other employment.

B - they have nearly no training in dealing with a physical altercation

If they try and intervene, they are more than likely to just get their asses beat.

This exactly. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. And you know what? Even if the guy was supposed to physically intervene, no one should put their own physical safety at risk for corporate profits.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2021, 11:34:12 am
This exactly. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. And you know what? Even if the guy was supposed to physically intervene, no one should put their own physical safety at risk for corporate profits.

It doesn't hurt corporate profits, it just becomes a cost of doing business that gets passed on to the consumer. It does hurt small business and drives them out of neigbourhoods with high crime rates.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 23, 2021, 12:45:24 pm
It doesn't hurt corporate profits, it just becomes a cost of doing business that gets passed on to the consumer. It does hurt small business and drives them out of neigbourhoods with high crime rates.

Weird because the biggest complaints about this apparent epidemic of shoplifting is coming from big corporations.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2021, 11:09:19 pm
Weird because the biggest complaints about this apparent epidemic of shoplifting is coming from big corporations.
Probably because little people don't have the resources to make big newsworthy complaints.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 09:57:00 am
Probably because little people don't have the resources to make big newsworthy complaints.

I'm not sure what your point is. Shoplifting from small mom and pop shops is bad. Stealing from big corporations? Victimless crime.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2021, 11:07:44 am
I'm not sure what your point is. Shoplifting from small mom and pop shops is bad. Stealing from big corporations? Victimless crime.

As a consumer, you are the victim. These are also the same people who will steal anything that isn't nailed down, including your kid's bike. 99% chance the bike he was riding was stolen.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 24, 2021, 12:00:02 pm
I'm not sure what your point is. Shoplifting from small mom and pop shops is bad. Stealing from big corporations? Victimless crime.

How big does the company have to be before it’s “victimless”? 

Are the sales reps, who may not want the store they work at stolen from, not worthy of being left alone by the thieves to do their jobs? 

Can these folks grab stuff out of people’s hands, shove clerks, push down old ladies on their way out?  Or does that create a victim, in your slightly twisted view on reality where people should just steal stuff if they want it?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 12:25:55 pm
As a consumer, you are the victim. These are also the same people who will steal anything that isn't nailed down, including your kid's bike. 99% chance the bike he was riding was stolen.

I'm a victim of corporate greed, it's true.

As for the rest: what's your point?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 12:28:25 pm
How big does the company have to be before it’s “victimless”? 

Let's say a billion dollars.

Walgreen's is 150 times that, CVS 250 times.

Quote
Are the sales reps, who may not want the store they work at stolen from, not worthy of being left alone by the thieves to do their jobs? 

Can these folks grab stuff out of people’s hands, shove clerks, push down old ladies on their way out?  Or does that create a victim, in your slightly twisted view on reality where people should just steal stuff if they want it?

Yeah if people get physically hurt in the process, they are victims. But I'm not gonna cry about shoplifting from a chain store ever.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2021, 04:01:30 pm
I'm a victim of corporate greed, it's true.

As for the rest: what's your point?
The person he stole that bike from is a victim, he doesn’t care how big or rich his victims are,  that’s your issue. Business will cover their costs and you will do it for them. That isn’t greed, it’s staying in business.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 24, 2021, 04:25:20 pm
I'm not sure what your point is. Shoplifting from small mom and pop shops is bad. Stealing from big corporations? Victimless crime.

What about all the regular working people who are shareholders saving for retirement?  What about all the consumers who have to pay higher prices to cover the cost of losses from theft?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 24, 2021, 04:27:02 pm
Let's say a billion dollars.

Walgreen's is 150 times that, CVS 250 times.

So some old people have to pay more for their drugs because of people like this d-bag.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 05:45:10 pm
The person he stole that bike from is a victim, he doesn’t care how big or rich his victims are,  that’s your issue. Business will cover their costs and you will do it for them. That isn’t greed, it’s staying in business.

tHat IsN't GrEeD (https://www1.salary.com/WALGREENS-BOOTS-ALLIANCE-INC-Executive-Salaries.html)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 24, 2021, 05:48:40 pm
What about all the regular working people who are shareholders saving for retirement?  What about all the consumers who have to pay higher prices to cover the cost of losses from theft?

Quote
So some old people have to pay more for their drugs because of people like this d-bag.

Corporations love easy marks like you who think a guy stealing $30 worth of toothpaste and tampons is responsible for higher costs but an executive receiving $23M in compensation has nothing to do with it.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 24, 2021, 05:57:18 pm
Corporations love easy marks like you who think a guy stealing $30 worth of toothpaste and tampons is responsible for higher costs but an executive receiving $23M in compensation has nothing to do with it.

You think only 1 person is stealing?

Walmart has about $3 billion in theft annually. 

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 24, 2021, 08:11:11 pm
Corporations love easy marks like you who think a guy stealing $30 worth of toothpaste and tampons is responsible for higher costs but an executive receiving $23M in compensation has nothing to do with it.

Don't put words in my mouth.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 25, 2021, 09:56:43 am
You think only 1 person is stealing?

Walmart has about $3 billion in theft annually.

That's 0.005% of their annual revenue.

So yeah, IDGAF.

Also there's this (https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/11/19/they-obviously-can-afford-workers-call-walmart-raise-minimum-wage-15-hour):

Quote
Walmart last increased their minimum wage in January 2018 to $11 an hour, an announcement which included employee bonuses up to $1000 each, citing the Trump tax cut as the driver of the increases. Only employees with at least 20 years of service would receive the full $1000 bonus. Less than 24 hours after Walmart touted bonuses and wage increases, they announced the closure of 63 Sam’s Club stores resulting in the layoff of over 10,000 workers. Walmart’s expected savings from the Trump tax cut is $2.2 billion, but less than one-third of that is likely to go toward bonuses and wage increases.

Walmart also has a reputation for wage theft. It's the leading wage theft employer in the United States, with more than $1.4 billion paid in wage theft fines and settlements since 2000, according to a June 2018 report by Good Jobs First. The report noted it is the only retailer in top 25 most penalized companies in the United States.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 25, 2021, 11:14:25 am
That's 0.005% of their annual revenue.

So yeah, IDGAF.

Also there's this (https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/11/19/they-obviously-can-afford-workers-call-walmart-raise-minimum-wage-15-hour):

It’s 1% of their revenue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 25, 2021, 01:51:42 pm
It’s 1% of their revenue.

WalMart's revenue is $559B a year.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2021, 02:03:43 pm
WalMart's revenue is $559B a year.

So? Why do you justify crime just because you don't like the victim?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 25, 2021, 02:13:49 pm
WalMart's revenue is $559B a year.

The article I read (maybe it was US only) said their sales are about $300B and they are being ripped off for about $3B.  1%

Which, likely drives up prices and is not insignificant, unlike your contention.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 25, 2021, 02:24:03 pm
The article I read (maybe it was US only) said their sales are about $300B and they are being ripped off for about $3B.  1%

Which, likely drives up prices and is not insignificant, unlike your contention.

[urlhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/shelleykohan/2021/02/18/walmart-revenue-hits-559-billion-for-fiscal-year-2020/?sh=4cdf45583358]WalMart Revenue hits $559 billion for fiscal year 2020
[/url]

For a company with that kind of revenue, $3B is insignificant. There's no reason for them to raise prices and pass it on to consumers except pure greed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2021, 11:41:04 am
[urlhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/shelleykohan/2021/02/18/walmart-revenue-hits-559-billion-for-fiscal-year-2020/?sh=4cdf45583358]WalMart Revenue hits $559 billion for fiscal year 2020
[/url]

For a company with that kind of revenue, $3B is insignificant. There's no reason for them to raise prices and pass it on to consumers except pure greed.

It's still 3 billion that will be picked up by the consumer whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 26, 2021, 02:18:28 pm
So? Why do you justify crime just because you don't like the victim?

There's no victim here.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 26, 2021, 02:20:13 pm
It's still 3 billion that will be picked up by the consumer whether you like it or not.

The fact they could easily absorb the cost of shoplifting without hurting their bottom line shows that the problem is corporate greed, not shoplifting,
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2021, 04:19:05 pm
The fact they could easily absorb the cost of shoplifting without hurting their bottom line shows that the problem is corporate greed, not shoplifting,

Why, because you say so?

It's just another cost of doing business, customers always cover the costs of doing business otherwise there would be no business.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 26, 2021, 10:20:39 pm
The fact they could easily absorb the cost of shoplifting without hurting their bottom line shows that the problem is corporate greed, not shoplifting,

You should move to Portland.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 27, 2021, 12:21:24 pm
Why, because you say so?


Yes.

Quote
It's just another cost of doing business, customers always cover the costs of doing business otherwise there would be no business.

It's not a cost of doing business, its a cost of maintaining obscene profits. But keep licking those boots.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 27, 2021, 12:22:04 pm
You should move to Portland.

"You should move to this beautiful, vibrant city," is a weird diss, but ok.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2021, 02:05:32 pm
Yes.

It's not a cost of doing business, its a cost of maintaining obscene profits. But keep licking those boots.

Of course it is a cost of doing business, how is it different from any other cost? Why do you think they and their customers should be charities for thieves?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 27, 2021, 03:38:18 pm
Of course it is a cost of doing business, how is it different from any other cost? Why do you think they and their customers should be charities for thieves?

It's not a cost they have to pass onto the customers. They choose to do so in order to maintain obscenely high profits. Thems the facts.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 27, 2021, 05:44:50 pm
It's not a cost they have to pass onto the customers. They choose to do so in order to maintain obscenely high profits. Thems the facts.

All costs are passed on to customers, that's how companies make money. They aren't charities, particularly for thieves.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 28, 2021, 11:09:19 am
All costs are passed on to customers, that's how companies make money. They aren't charities, particularly for thieves.

Thank you for conceding that rising consumers costs and shoplifting aren't linked. If shoplifting completely stopped, WalMart et al would pocket the savings and continue to raise prices because of the profit motive. Given that this is a no-win situation for consumers, I can't blame some for helping themselves to goods through the five finger discount.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 28, 2021, 11:13:51 am
Thank you for conceding that rising consumers costs and shoplifting aren't linked. If shoplifting completely stopped, WalMart et al would pocket the savings and continue to raise prices because of the profit motive. Given that this is a no-win situation for consumers, I can't blame some for helping themselves to goods through the five finger discount.

Of course they are linked. Prices are always linked to costs. What world do you live in?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 28, 2021, 11:39:09 am
Of course they are linked. Prices are always linked to costs. What world do you live in?

Again, a profitable business like WalMart has the option of eating that cost. They choose not to in order to make more money, therefore the profit motive and not the shoplifiting is tho blame for the increased costs.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 28, 2021, 12:00:11 pm
Again, a profitable business like WalMart has the option of eating that cost. They choose not to in order to make more money, therefore the profit motive and not the shoplifiting is tho blame for the increased costs.

You do live in a strange world. Costs are costs. Period.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 28, 2021, 02:22:28 pm
You do live in a strange world. Costs are costs. Period.

He’s not wrong…. They could just “soak it up” and take less profit.  I’ve seen no evidence of their business strategy either way….   Maybe they already do this.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 28, 2021, 02:49:01 pm
He’s not wrong…. They could just “soak it up” and take less profit.  I’ve seen no evidence of their business strategy either way….   Maybe they already do this.

Why would they just "soak up" those costs and not others? Are thieves deserving of some special consideration?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 28, 2021, 03:29:52 pm
Why would they just "soak up" those costs and not others? Are thieves deserving of some special consideration?

No, not to benefit thieves…. And I didn’t say they are allowing it to happen.  But they can undercut their competitors if they can keep prices lower than others.  That’s their whole schtick….

Rather than making it up by raising prices, they are more likely to make it up by forcing China to use more child labour.  That’s the Walmart way…

So BlackDog’s idea that thievery from Walmart is OK probably means even more horrific working conditions for their foreign suppliers.   But as long as the shoplifters are happy….  And as long as BlackDog doesn’t actually see the negative side effects of it, all is well.   Cuz screw Walmart.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 28, 2021, 04:52:57 pm
Rather than making it up by raising prices, they are more likely to make it up by forcing China to use more child labour.  That’s the Walmart way…

How does Walmart force China to use more child labour?  How do they force China to do anything?

Walmart is going to try to reduce its costs anyway it can regardless of how much of how much theft happens in their stores.

Walmart has a gazillion shareholders, including many regular people saving for their retirement in their RRSPs and 401ks.  The thieves are stealing from them, the rich investors, consumers via increased costs etc.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 28, 2021, 05:13:25 pm
How do they force China to do anything?

Do you really have such little imagination that you can’t think of ways a big corporation would force places into terrible working conditions?

Here’s one example:
Quote
The report also says that Walmart (WMT) "refused" to sign the Accord on Fire and Building Safety, a pact by 190 clothing brands as well as trade unions to inspect factories for fire, electrical and structural safety. Gap didn't join the accord, either. Instead, Walmart and Gap formed a group called the Alliance for Bangladesh Worker Safety.
https://money.cnn.com/2016/05/31/news/companies/walmart-gap-hm-garment-workers-asia/index.html

Walmart doesn’t sign onto a safety pact for fires….  Which means the factories they use can undercut other factories because they don’t spend money on fire safety. 

Do you need other examples?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 29, 2021, 11:00:33 am
You do live in a strange world. Costs are costs. Period.

And the decision to pass costs on to consumers in higher prices is a choice. period.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 29, 2021, 11:01:51 am
How does Walmart force China to use more child labour?  How do they force China to do anything?

Walmart is going to try to reduce its costs anyway it can regardless of how much of how much theft happens in their stores.

Walmart has a gazillion shareholders, including many regular people saving for their retirement in their RRSPs and 401ks.  The thieves are stealing from them, the rich investors, consumers via increased costs etc.

The thieves are stealing from WalMart, the company is stealing from consumers.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 29, 2021, 02:02:34 pm
And the decision to pass costs on to consumers in higher prices is a choice. period.

No, they just make working conditions worse in Asia to cover the costs of thefts. 

Do you still think there’s no victim?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 29, 2021, 02:33:45 pm
No, they just make working conditions worse in Asia to cover the costs of thefts. 

Do you still think there’s no victim?

Why would you think they would change how they deal with working conditions based on the level of theft?  They're profit-maximizing no matter what.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 29, 2021, 04:03:02 pm
No, they just make working conditions worse in Asia to cover the costs of thefts. 

Do you still think there’s no victim?

*company does something bad to squeeze out even more profits*

you: damn shoplifters!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 29, 2021, 04:59:05 pm
No, not to benefit thieves…. And I didn’t say they are allowing it to happen.  But they can undercut their competitors if they can keep prices lower than others.  That’s their whole schtick….

Rather than making it up by raising prices, they are more likely to make it up by forcing China to use more child labour.  That’s the Walmart way…

So BlackDog’s idea that thievery from Walmart is OK probably means even more horrific working conditions for their foreign suppliers.   But as long as the shoplifters are happy….  And as long as BlackDog doesn’t actually see the negative side effects of it, all is well.   Cuz screw Walmart.


Yeah dude poor Walmart would never resort to anything like using foreign sweatshops, stealing employee wages and benefits and destroying local businesses if it wasn't for the dang shoplifters. I too was born yesterday.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 29, 2021, 05:02:06 pm
*company does something bad to squeeze out even more profits*

you: damn shoplifters!

Walmart - we need to make up a billion dollars in theft….  Raise prices?  Naw, we should make sure we save more money by not installing sprinklers at our factories in Bangladesh.

You:  shoplifting is a victimless crime.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 30, 2021, 10:46:56 am
Walmart - we need to make up a billion dollars in theft…. Raise prices?  Naw, we should make sure we save more money by not installing sprinklers at our factories in Bangladesh.

You:  shoplifting is a victimless crime.

There's your trouble: you're removing agency from the highly profitable mega corporation and casting them as helpless victims of people palming pregnancy tests. Incredibly cucked behaviour.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on June 30, 2021, 10:52:33 am
There's your trouble: you're removing agency from the highly profitable mega corporation and casting them as helpless victims of people palming pregnancy tests. Incredibly cucked behaviour.

No, you are by being incredibly selective.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 30, 2021, 10:56:34 am
There's your trouble: you're removing agency from the highly profitable mega corporation and casting them as helpless victims of people palming pregnancy tests. Incredibly cucked behaviour.

Who said they’re helpless?  They’re quite capable of making back money in theft by cutting costs at their supplier level.   That doesn’t sound helpless at all.

It sounds like you are lacking imagination when you say that stealing from big companies is a “victimless crime”.  That’s just idiotic.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 30, 2021, 11:47:53 am
Who said they’re helpless?  They’re quite capable of making back money in theft by cutting costs at their supplier level.   That doesn’t sound helpless at all.

Because to you, they have no other choice but to make back money by using sweatshops when in fact, they could simply eat the costs and not facilitate human rights abuses.

Quote
It sounds like you are lacking imagination when you say that stealing from big companies is a “victimless crime”.  That’s just idiotic.

Blaming shoplifting for a corporation's choices to pursue obscene profits over human rights is bootlicker behaviour.

You're right though I lack the imagination to conceive of a fantasy world where poor innocent corporations wouldn't exploit labour if it wasn't for those dang shoplifters.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on October 02, 2021, 02:14:01 pm
...
They (and the people giving the orders) clearly have some amount of flexibility when it comes to enforcing them, because we saw that the George Floyd protests were allowed to proceed, and a couple of weeks ago the Glasgow Rangers footie fans had a big unlawful celebration and the police didn't do anything about it. It's worth mentioning that the group attempting to organize the vigil, Reclaim The Streets, had attempted to work with police and was rebuffed at every turn.  They went to court to challenge the police interpretation of the laws; the police fought them in court.  That was a foolish move, because not only did people attend the vigil despite Reclaim The Streets cancelling the official event, but the police actions have further inflamed tensions to the point that there have been additional protests every night since.  And, to demonstrate that they do indeed have some leeway, the police have learned their lesson and largely left the protesters alone.

A cynic might propose that the George Floyd protests and the Glasgow Rangers celebrations were allowed to proceed uninterrupted because BLM protestors and football hooligans will kick your ass and set your police cars on fire if you try and stop them, and that the Sarah Everard vigil was not allowed to proceed because women won't kick your ass or set your police car on fire.

But UK women should set some police cars on fire, because UK police have been failing them to an immense degree for a long time. 



This past week Sarah Everard's killer was sentenced. Some of the details that came out during the sentencing hearing were extremely upsetting. Not only was he a police officer, he also abducted Everard under the pretense of an arrest. She was walking home, he stopped her claiming she was violating covid restrictions. He handcuffed her and put her in his police vehicle.  Witnesses who saw the interaction said they "assumed she must have done something wrong."  Afterwards he transferred her from the police car to a rental vehicle, drove her to the woods in Kent, raped her, strangled her, and tried to burn her body.


There have also been a bunch of infuriating statements given by the Met (the Metropolitan London Police Force) since this became public. They released guidelines for women to follow if you're concerned that the cop arresting you might be a murderer attempting to abduct you. ("Ask probing questions!" "Know your rights!" "Run away!" "Get Help!" "Phone the police!")  A police commissioner said on BBC "she shouldn't have submitted to that arrest. We need women to better understand their rights!"   As if resisting an arrest from a police officer was ever a viable option for Sarah Everard or any other woman who might find herself in that situation.

The Met and the government have known all of the details of Sarah Everard's murder for months, but have only provided all of these helpful hints for women in the couple of days since this information became public.  If this was actually about making women safe, they'd have provided this "advice" much sooner. But it's not, it's about public relations. There's also a lot of performative contrition going on in England right now. "We are so sorry."  "We know we have a lot of work to do to rebuild the trust." "We are going to get to the bottom of what went wrong."

We learned that the murderer's colleagues thought so highly of his character that they nicknamed him "the rapist". He and other members of the force were part of a social media group where they exchanged misogynist jokes. We learned that there were indecent exposure complaints regarding the murderer that should have been a red flag to alert the police to what kind of guy their colleague was. But three different police forces over almost 20 years didn't seem to care enough to bother.   We learned that the vetting process was more or less a sham.

The Met's commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, assured Londoners that the murderer is "a bad 'un" who doesn't represent the whole force. But clearly there's institutional rot in the Met as in many other police forces, and clearly there are a whole bunch more "bad 'uns" who gave cover to this guy for a long time.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on October 02, 2021, 04:56:54 pm
The Met's commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, assured Londoners that the murderer is "a bad 'un" who doesn't represent the whole force. But clearly there's institutional rot in the Met as in many other police forces, and clearly there are a whole bunch more "bad 'uns" who gave cover to this guy for a long time.
 

Institutional rot is a problem everywhere, but in policing for sure and in Canada for sure.

I really don't get the framing of this London police murder at all.  Why would the police release 'guidelines' at all, unless they are accepting the idea that there are murderers in the police ?  It seems like a horrible error that he was on the force, and an institutional flaw that he wasn't found out as well as the entire response to this.

Toronto's Police are not trusted and the chief seems to be a strange kind of appointed king.  The anti-vax squad decided to inundate a local restaurant and she was unable to get the attending officers to do anything about them until celebrities started 'tweeting'.  Who knows what drives these things ?

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on October 02, 2021, 06:51:06 pm
Institutional rot is a problem everywhere...

...Who knows what drives these things ?
I still maintain the answer is the near total absence of accountability at the top echelons of our public institutions - a source from which decency and integrity can trickle down thru our institutions.

What's bubbling up instead is dissolving public trust and basically locking our civilization into it's declining trajectory.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on October 02, 2021, 07:56:46 pm
I still maintain the answer is the near total absence of accountability at the top echelons of our public institutions - a source from which decency and integrity can trickle down thru our institutions.

Funny enough this came up recently in a private conversation and I was reminded of the ghost power of ... the deputy ministers.  They are unknown, unreplaceable and in all likelihood not the most forward thinking purveyors of institutional achievement.

Quote
What's bubbling up instead is dissolving public trust and basically locking our civilization into it's declining trajectory.

I will maintain that the basic institutions are still there and the system could be flipped positive without much more than a popular leader with good ideas.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 02, 2021, 08:12:47 pm
I still maintain the answer is the near total absence of accountability at the top echelons of our public institutions - a source from which decency and integrity can trickle down thru our institutions.

What's bubbling up instead is dissolving public trust and basically locking our civilization into it's declining trajectory.

Accountability needs to happen with the mayor and city council, who must keep the police chiefs accountable, because they're the ones who keep their cops accountable, but it doesn't seem to happen.  Rules/laws of accountability are meaningless if not enforced.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 02, 2021, 08:20:23 pm
We learned that the murderer's colleagues thought so highly of his character that they nicknamed him "the rapist". He and other members of the force were part of a social media group where they exchanged misogynist jokes. We learned that there were indecent exposure complaints regarding the murderer that should have been a red flag to alert the police to what kind of guy their colleague was. But three different police forces over almost 20 years didn't seem to care enough to bother.   We learned that the vetting process was more or less a sham.

The Met's commissioner, Dame Cressida Dick, assured Londoners that the murderer is "a bad 'un" who doesn't represent the whole force. But clearly there's institutional rot in the Met as in many other police forces, and clearly there are a whole bunch more "bad 'uns" who gave cover to this guy for a long time.

 -k

There are no good cops.  A good cop that looks the other way when wrongdoing happens is not a good cop.  The only good cops are the ones that resign because of this fact.

Most people in general care more about their jobs than ethics.  That's pretty sad.  Sometimes it makes sense when you have a family to feed, other times people are just selfish jerks.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on October 03, 2021, 09:57:01 am
 
Funny enough this came up recently in a private conversation and I was reminded of the ghost power of ... the deputy ministers.  They are unknown, unreplaceable and in all likelihood not the most forward thinking purveyors of institutional achievement.
The so called deepstate - the agents of THEY. 🙄


Quote
I will maintain that the basic institutions are still there and the system could be flipped positive without much more than a popular leader with good ideas.
I'm reminded of darker fictional characters like the Mule from the Foundation Trilogy and the Rainmaker from Looper.

Maybe it was easier to be the leader you describe in the past without so much media to distract and dilute their effect. Which these days is to yield bad leaders with populist ideals.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 03, 2021, 10:45:14 am
Funny enough this came up recently in a private conversation and I was reminded of the ghost power of ... the deputy ministers.  They are unknown, unreplaceable and in all likelihood not the most forward thinking purveyors of institutional achievement.
How are they unreplaceable?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: The Cynic on October 03, 2021, 11:29:29 am
There are no good cops.

You don't think this is just a wee bit overstated?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on October 03, 2021, 01:22:53 pm
How are they unreplaceable?

They are viewed as unreplaceable because they ARE the departments they govern.  Are they ?  I can't say for sure - I think that Canada would do well to use standard management practices in government, vs. what they do today.  My experiences dealing with government have shown them to be poorly managed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 03, 2021, 03:10:25 pm
You don't think this is just a wee bit overstated?

Is a cop who looks the other way when they see wrongdoing a good cop?  Because that's literally every cop.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: The Cynic on October 06, 2021, 06:57:12 pm
Is a cop who looks the other way when they see wrongdoing a good cop?  Because that's literally every cop.

Done a survey, have you?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on October 07, 2021, 08:17:50 am
Done a survey, have you?

Loving the drive towards the PRINCIPLE of generalizing and abstraction:

When is it ok to generalize and when not ?  And what's the reality vs. ideal of politics weighing on that ?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 07, 2021, 09:09:50 am
Loving the drive towards the PRINCIPLE of generalizing and abstraction:

When is it ok to generalize and when not ?  And what's the reality vs. ideal of politics weighing on that ?

If you're a cop at some point you're going to see wrongdoing of fellow cops abusing their power.   I would imagine it's pretty routine.  If you're a cop you're going to look the other way or face harassment and be ostracized, there's many examples of this.  Look at all the cops standing around George Floyd as he laid lifeless.

If you put your job security ahead of your oath well guess what you're a bad cop because you're not honoring your oath.  Show me a cop that honors their oath, it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 07, 2021, 01:14:13 pm
You don't think this is just a wee bit overstated?

If there are good cops, their influence on police practices and culture is apparently minuscule.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 28, 2022, 08:04:59 pm
Progressives have the blood on their hands of a record high number of police officers killed in the past year.  Their demagogic rhetoric and irresponsible characterization has led to this tragedy.  Shame on all of you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 29, 2022, 12:42:59 am
Progressives have the blood on their hands of a record high number of police officers killed in the past year.
What makes you think its "progressives" that are responsible for the death of U.S. police officers?

Most crimes have nothing to do with politics, and I see no reason why "right wingers" are any less capable of committing a crime than left wingers. (Actually, the greatest source of domestic terrorism in the past decade has not been from left wingers and/or islamic terrorists, but from right-wing extremists.)

Actually, looking at the statistics, the most common cause of death among officers in 2021 is not shootings or other types of violence... it was Covid-19, and given the fact that MAGAchud are more likely to be anti-mask/anti-vax/anti-social distancing (and thus more likely to transmit the virus), I'd have to say it is the right wing that has most "blood on its hands".

https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2021
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 29, 2022, 03:47:13 am

Actually, looking at the statistics, the most common cause of death among officers in 2021 is not shootings or other types of violence... it was Covid-19, and given the fact that MAGAchud are more likely to be anti-mask/anti-vax/anti-social distancing (and thus more likely to transmit the virus), I'd have to say it is the right wing that has most "blood on its hands".

Cops probably weren't vaxxed etc cuz lots of cops are dumb.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 09:22:48 am
What makes you think its "progressives" that are responsible for the death of U.S. police officers?

Most crimes have nothing to do with politics, and I see no reason why "right wingers" are any less capable of committing a crime than left wingers. (Actually, the greatest source of domestic terrorism in the past decade has not been from left wingers and/or islamic terrorists, but from right-wing extremists.)

Actually, looking at the statistics, the most common cause of death among officers in 2021 is not shootings or other types of violence... it was Covid-19, and given the fact that MAGAchud are more likely to be anti-mask/anti-vax/anti-social distancing (and thus more likely to transmit the virus), I'd have to say it is the right wing that has most "blood on its hands".

https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2021
2021 was a 20 year high of police homicides.  Police are under attack now because of irresponsible rhetoric from progressives painting all of them as racist killers.  If conservatives were talking in a similar way about any other group of people, followed by an huge increase of violence in that group, we all know what would be said.  Just more hypocrisy from you people.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 29, 2022, 09:30:02 am
Are you still embarrassed you cheered on the murder of those police on January 6? I don't blame you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 09:40:53 am
Are you still embarrassed you cheered on the murder of those police on January 6? I don't blame you.
You’re the one the cheered on the murder.  It’s disgusting that an unarmed woman was killed so needlessly.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 29, 2022, 09:57:17 am
You’re the one the cheered on the murder.  It’s disgusting that an unarmed woman was killed so needlessly.
She was leading a mob which immediately crapped their pants and fled when they realized their "president" wasn't going to stand behind them. That police officer saved lives. As it is, only five officers didn't survive. It could have been worse.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 10:12:17 am
She was leading a mob which immediately crapped their pants and fled when they realized their "president" wasn't going to stand behind them. That police officer saved lives. As it is, only five officers didn't survive. It could have been worse.
No police officers were killed on January 6th.  None.  Stop lying.  The only person killed was an unarmed woman walking around the capital building.  The police officer that killed her saved zero lives by doing so.  Trespassing isn’t punishable by death. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 29, 2022, 10:57:22 am
Five officers were dead in the immediate aftermath. A sad and inconvenient fact.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 11:32:55 am
Five officers were dead in the immediate aftermath. A sad and inconvenient fact.
No officers were killed as a result of the January 6th riot.  That’s just a flat out lie. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 29, 2022, 01:10:23 pm
2021 was a 20 year high of police homicides.  Police are under attack now because of irresponsible rhetoric from progressives painting all of them as racist killers.  If conservatives were talking in a similar way about any other group of people, followed by an huge increase of violence in that group, we all know what would be said.  Just more hypocrisy from you people.

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1253045577.9543/poster,504x498,f8f8f8-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.jpg)

Seriously though, homicides were up across the board and there's no evidence the slight increase in cop murders is due to progressive rhetoric around the pigs. And of course the number of cops murdered is dwarfed by the number who committed suicide by COVID lol.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 29, 2022, 01:13:47 pm
No police officers were killed on January 6th.  None.  Stop lying.  The only person killed was an unarmed woman walking around the capital building.  The police officer that killed her saved zero lives by doing so.

(https://i0.wp.com/timesofsandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Capitol-Shooting.jpg?ssl=1)

"*record scratch* *freeze frame* Yup, that's me. You're probably wondering how I ended up in this situation...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErM9XT1WMAIgXQq.jpg)

Quote
Trespassing isn’t punishable by death.

it is in the U.S. or have you never heard of "stand your ground" laws and the castle doctrine.

Anyway you should read the results of the Justice Department's investigation (https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes-investigation-death-ashli-babbitt), it's quite enlightening, specifically this bit:

Quote
The investigation further determined that Ms. Babbitt was among a mob of people that entered the Capitol building and gained access to a hallway outside “Speaker’s Lobby,” which leads to the Chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives.  At the time, the USCP was evacuating Members from the Chamber, which the mob was trying to enter from multiple doorways.  USCP officers used furniture to barricade a set of glass doors separating the hallway and Speaker’s Lobby to try and stop the mob from entering the Speaker’s Lobby and the Chamber, and three officers positioned themselves between the doors and the mob.  Members of the mob attempted to break through the doors by striking them and breaking the glass with their hands, flagpoles, helmets, and other objects.  Eventually, the three USCP officers positioned outside the doors were forced to evacuate.  As members of the mob continued to strike the glass doors, Ms. Babbitt attempted to climb through one of the doors where glass was broken out. 

In other words: she f*cked around and found out.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 29, 2022, 03:17:17 pm
Speaking of people who FAFO...

Washington State cop who became a right wing hero after he recording himself telling the gov to “kiss my ass” dies of COVID  (https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/1487271294005620743?s=20&t=LNyfMdcJ-PJ2Z5lq4JdXSg)

Guess he really wanted to go viral.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 03:22:07 pm
Speaking of people who FAFO...

Washington State cop who became a right wing hero after he recording himself telling the gov to “kiss my ass” dies of COVID  (https://twitter.com/HelenKennedy/status/1487271294005620743?s=20&t=LNyfMdcJ-PJ2Z5lq4JdXSg)

Guess he really wanted to go viral.
Which is his right.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 29, 2022, 03:23:59 pm
Which is his right.

It was his right.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on January 29, 2022, 03:30:36 pm
It was his right.
Nice, we can agree on something. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 29, 2022, 03:35:48 pm
Nice, we can agree on something.

You also think it's hilarious when these hogs choose to kill themselves with an easily preventable virus?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 30, 2022, 02:41:01 pm
Pa. fuel tax meant for bridge repair went to state police instead (https://whyy.org/articles/pa-fuel-tax-meant-for-bridge-repair-went-to-state-police-instead)

FAST FORWARD FOUR YEARS:

PA bridge collapses, injuring 10
 (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/28/pittsburgh-bridge-collapse-biden-infrastructure-speech)


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 07, 2022, 12:43:47 pm
This is what libtard policy gets you.

Seattle: Violent crime up 20% last year as residents say the city 'is a mess right now'
https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-business-owners-tourists-react-to-latest-record-crime-numbers-and-hot-spots
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 07, 2022, 12:47:46 pm
And in San Francisco

San Francisco confronts a crime wave
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-03/san-francisco-property-crime-spikes

And in New York
What's behind the spike in violent crime across NYC?
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-causes-shootings-murders/11505549/

All brought to you by the regressive defund the police crowd, that's successfully defunded police departments across the country, made bail reform to lead to violent criminals released without bail, and made thefts under $1000 not even a crime anymore.  All in the name of "social justice".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 01:13:14 pm
And in San Francisco

San Francisco confronts a crime wave
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-03/san-francisco-property-crime-spikes

And in New York
What's behind the spike in violent crime across NYC?
https://abc7ny.com/nyc-crime-causes-shootings-murders/11505549/

All brought to you by the regressive defund the police crowd, that's successfully defunded police departments across the country, made bail reform to lead to violent criminals released without bail, and made thefts under $1000 not even a crime anymore.  All in the name of "social justice".

Liar. Literally every city saw crime go up whether they went ahead with such measures or not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 01:20:35 pm
LOL (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-2021-crime-data-released-16807034.php)

Quote
The San Francisco Police Department released its crime data for 2021, indicating an uptick in crime from 2020, but overall lower crime rates than pre-pandemic levels.

In San Francisco overall, property crimes went up 11% and violent crimes went up by 1% in 2021 compared to 2020, according to San Francisco police’s Compstat data. (Compstat, or computer statistics, is a program used mainly by U.S. police to track and analyze crime statistics.)

But these numbers, as a whole, were lower than crime from 2019 and years past. From 2014 to 2019, between 56,000 and 63,000 total violent and property crimes were recorded. In 2021, there were a total of 49,685 recorded crimes.

lmfao (https://sfist.com/2022/01/03/stats-show-sf-property-crime-down-11-2-below-pre-pandemic-levels-despite-moral-panic/)

Quote
A detailed analysis of property crime in Bay Area cities shows that San Jose and Berkeley have seen property crime decrease over the last two years, and while many Bay Area cities saw an increase in 2021, thefts are still down double-digit percentages compared to 2019.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 07, 2022, 01:28:10 pm
LOL (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-2021-crime-data-released-16807034.php)

lmfao (https://sfist.com/2022/01/03/stats-show-sf-property-crime-down-11-2-below-pre-pandemic-levels-despite-moral-panic/)
They have decriminalized certain crimes, like theft under $1000.  So smash and grabs aren’t counted as crimes anymore.   Keep excusing terrible policy domestic chicken hawk.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 07, 2022, 01:32:09 pm
Retail theft has emerged has a hot issue in San Francisco as stores cope with a crime spike
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-25/behind-a-shoplifting-surge-a-long-held-fascination

Imagine laughing at this type of thing?

San Francisco Has Become a Shoplifter’s Paradise
https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-shoplifters-theft-walgreens-decriminalized-11634678239

Libtard policy at it's worst.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 01:41:34 pm
They have decriminalized certain crimes, like theft under $1000.

They did that in 2014 you dumbass.

Quote
So smash and grabs aren’t counted as crimes anymore.   Keep excusing terrible policy domestic chicken hawk.


14 arrests made in Los Angeles smash-and-grab style crimes
 (http://hhttps://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/14-arrests-made-los-angeles-smash-grab-style-crimes-rcna7495)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 01:46:41 pm
Retail theft has emerged has a hot issue in San Francisco as stores cope with a crime spike
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-25/behind-a-shoplifting-surge-a-long-held-fascination

Imagine laughing at this type of thing?

San Francisco Has Become a Shoplifter’s Paradise
https://www.wsj.com/articles/san-francisco-shoplifters-theft-walgreens-decriminalized-11634678239

Libtard policy at it's worst.

It's hilarious watching idiots like you fall for corporate and cop propaganda when the actual numbers don't support anything they say.

Quote
Data released by the San Francisco Police Department does not support the explanation announced by Walgreens that it is closing five stores because of organized, rampant retail theft.

One of the stores set to close, on Ocean Avenue, had only seven reported shoplifting incidents this year and a total of 23 since 2018, the data showed. While not all shoplifting incidents are reported to police, the five stores slated to close had fewer than two recorded shoplifting incidents a month on average since 2018.
...
Four years ago, Walgreens told shareholders it planned to close 600 stores nationwide. It wound up closing 769. In 2019, the Illinois company said in a U.S. Security and Exchange Commission filing that it would shutter 200 stores, or fewer than 3% of its 10,000 locations in the U.S. — one of several cost-saving measures projected to save $1.5 billion in annual expenses by 2022, according to the filings.

link (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfchronicle.com%2Fsf%2Farticle%2FIs-shoplifting-forcing-Walgreens-to-cut-back-in-16536960.php)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 07, 2022, 01:54:55 pm
It's hilarious watching idiots like you fall for corporate and cop propaganda when the actual numbers don't support anything they say.

link (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfchronicle.com%2Fsf%2Farticle%2FIs-shoplifting-forcing-Walgreens-to-cut-back-in-16536960.php)
Yes, the liberal think tanks continue to ignore realty.  Apparently you think business is sustainable when people can literally walk in and take a thousand dollars of merchandise and face no consequences.  I can tell you’ve never run a business in your life.  You’re the typical domestic chicken hawk.  You support policies that you know will never affect you directly.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 01:59:26 pm
Yes, the liberal think tanks continue to ignore realty.  Apparently you think business is sustainable when people can literally walk in and take a thousand dollars of merchandise and face no consequences. I can tell you’ve never run a business in your life.  You’re the typical domestic chicken hawk.  You support policies that you know will never affect you directly.

Quote
They have decriminalized certain crimes, like theft under $1000.

Quote
theft under $1000

Quote
under $1000

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 02:05:32 pm
LOL!  Bwaaahaaahaaaa!

Even Democrats are now admitting 'Defund the Police' was a massive mistake
"The number of reported violent crimes, like assaults, robberies and homicides are up compared to 2019, according to MPD crime data. More people have been killed in the city in the first nine months of 2020 than were slain in all of last year. Property crimes, like burglaries and auto thefts, are also up. Incidents of arson have increased 55 percent over the total at this point in 2019."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/05/politics/defund-the-police-democrats/index.html

Here we have an article about how Minneapolis had planned to reallocate funds and overhaul their police force but didn't due to rising crime and you're out here pretending defunding is to blame for the rise in crime.

At this point, you posting articles that directly refute your claims has to be intentional, right? Like you're just setting us up to smack you around on purpose? i guess there's also the possibility you don't actually know how to read.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on February 07, 2022, 02:08:00 pm
Here we have an article about how Minneapolis had planned to reallocate funds and overhaul their police force but didn't due to rising crime and you're out here pretending defunding is to blame for the rise in crime.
You will have to forgive him... I don't think he understands the whole concept of "time".

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 07, 2022, 02:13:46 pm
You will have to forgive him... I don't think he understands the whole concept of "time".

I'm honestly in awe, like if I didn't know this guy has been doing this stuff for years going back to the MLW days, I'd swear it was a left-wing troll doing a bit to make right wingers look stupid.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on February 07, 2022, 02:20:35 pm
I'm honestly in awe, like if I didn't know this guy has been doing this stuff for years going back to the MLW days, I'd swear it was a left-wing troll doing a bit to make right wingers look stupid.
Yeah, the sheer incompetence of what he posts might make a person think he is deliberately trying to make the MAGAchud look bad. (Considering the number of times he has self-owned.)

But then, if you look at your typical MAGAchud, they aren't that smart yet they seem to genuinely believe the bunk they've been fed and are quite willing to repeat it. So its not totally inconceivable that one of them managed to quit eating crayons long enough to try to post here.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 18, 2022, 12:51:37 am
They should defund the Ottawa police and send social workers to get the truckers to leave.

That's how dumb some people are.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 18, 2022, 10:10:44 am
They should defund the Ottawa police and send social workers to get the truckers to leave.

That's how dumb some people are.

Given how useless the Ottawa police have been over the course of this, this isn't the clever argument you think it is.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 18, 2022, 03:05:11 pm
I'm sure the situation would have been resolved much quicker with social workers.

This, but unironically. It seems obvious there's a lot of untreated mental illness among these people given the paranoia, penchant for conspiracy theories and self-destructive behaviour. Maybe talking to a trained professional would help them more than getting a high five from a dumb high school graduate in uniform.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 19, 2022, 08:32:08 pm
Given how useless the Ottawa police have been over the course of this, this isn't the clever argument you think it is.

Does every reply of yours have to include a personal attack?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on February 19, 2022, 09:00:58 pm
This, but unironically. It seems obvious there's a lot of untreated mental illness among these people given the paranoia, penchant for conspiracy theories and self-destructive behaviour. Maybe talking to a trained professional would help them more than getting a high five from a dumb high school graduate in uniform.
Straw man after straw man after straw man.  Just own up to your stupid libtard defund the police policy, which also includes eliminating bail, which has allowed violent criminals to be released almost immediately after arrest.  You’re a domestic chicken hawk, free from any repercussions of your illogical policies.  You’re so brave.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on February 19, 2022, 10:42:23 pm
Given how useless the Ottawa police have been over the course of this, this isn't the clever argument you think it is.

Whatever you think about the Ottawa police, the last few days should make it obvious that alone they didn't have the manpower to do much about this.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 20, 2022, 12:20:43 am
Whatever you think about the Ottawa police, the last few days should make it obvious that alone they didn't have the manpower to do much about this.

Because of all the violence?

They have 1500 officers.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 21, 2022, 01:31:18 pm
Straw man after straw man after straw man.  Just own up to your stupid libtard defund the police policy, which also includes eliminating bail, which has allowed violent criminals to be released almost immediately after arrest.  You’re a domestic chicken hawk, free from any repercussions of your illogical policies.  You’re so brave.

Own up to the...thing i vocally support? The thing that, unfortunately, hasn't actually been tried despite your various fake stories?

Just goes to show that despite all your whining about the cops breaking up the convoy protest in pretty much the gentlest way possible, you actually support unchecked police powers and a rapacious carceral state so long as they target the poor, the disadvantaged or communities of colour and not comfortable assholes like you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on February 21, 2022, 01:32:19 pm
Does every reply of yours have to include a personal attack?

Where's the personal attack in the post you quoted?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 31, 2022, 10:58:53 am
Calgary cops have been ordered to stop wearing thin blue line patches. The union says they won't obey (https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/police-officers-will-defy-order-to-stop-wearing-thin-blue-line-patch-union).

Yet another reason why people don't like or trust cops: they think they are beyond accountability and they aren't wrong.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on March 31, 2022, 11:31:02 am
What other groups of people do you stereotype and judge based on the actions of a few?

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-q0G7kQw3GHM/UrDOHsy5OuI/AAAAAAAAPV0/712TpTxlCws/s1600/michael-keaton.gif)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 31, 2022, 11:48:55 am
Calgary cops have been ordered to stop wearing thin blue line patches. The union says they won't obey (https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/police-officers-will-defy-order-to-stop-wearing-thin-blue-line-patch-union).

Yet another reason why people don't like or trust cops: they think they are beyond accountability and they aren't wrong.

It's not a part of the official uniform and therefore should be removed. Tough part is they're an essential service so you can't just fire them or lock them out.  Your move, city of Calgary...

I agree cops so often act like tyrants.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 03, 2022, 11:32:38 pm
juSt a FeW bAd aPPleS (https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1510188538725384192?s=20&t=2ADqcfTwfLwu5OLSCiIqpQ)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 03, 2022, 11:59:57 pm
juSt a FeW bAd aPPleS (https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1510188538725384192?s=20&t=2ADqcfTwfLwu5OLSCiIqpQ)

That's why every police dept should have body cams.  We should all check if our local police have them and demand it if they don't.

Cameras are the only thing that can hold these types accountable.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 04, 2022, 09:31:56 am
That's why every police dept should have body cams.  We should all check if our local police have them and demand it if they don't.

Cameras are the only thing that can hold these types accountable.

That dude was on camera and he knew it and it didn't stop him.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 04, 2022, 10:22:13 am
Police budgets have increased exorbitantly in the past 10 years, way past the rate of inflation. In Winnipeg, basic constables make over $100k a year (in a place where you can still find a basic condo for that price). Do the people who cry about defunding the police (but also cry about police states every time they are investigated for breaking the law) see any limit to those increases? How much would be too much?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 04, 2022, 10:30:07 am
That dude was on camera and he knew it and it didn't stop him.

I'd imagine he'll be reprimanded though.  He probably would have got away with it if it wasn't on camera, or at least the odds would have been far higher.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 04, 2022, 10:42:06 am
I'd imagine he'll be reprimanded though.  He probably would have got away with it if it wasn't on camera, or at least the odds would have been far higher.

Even with cameras, we're probably looking at a slap on the wrist. If he does get more, it'll be because he assaulted a fellow cop; if had been a suspect, he'd get a paid vacation. My point here is that cameras are great for documenting this stuff, but there has to be actual oversight and accountability and there currently is none.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 04, 2022, 01:11:25 pm
Even with cameras, we're probably looking at a slap on the wrist. If he does get more, it'll be because he assaulted a fellow cop; if had been a suspect, he'd get a paid vacation. My point here is that cameras are great for documenting this stuff, but there has to be actual oversight and accountability and there currently is none.

Cops get fired andor sued all the time when they do bad stuff caught on camera.   Other times they get a slap on the wrist and get away with it too.  I agree accountability is still a serious problem.  The cameras are a good step is all im saying.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 04, 2022, 03:35:57 pm
Cops get fired andor sued all the time when they do bad stuff caught on camera.   Other times they get a slap on the wrist and get away with it too.  I agree accountability is still a serious problem.  The cameras are a good step is all im saying.

I agree with the general sentiment, though I'm not sure cops actually do get fired all that often (and, in the States at least, when they do, they just move one town or county over and get another police job) and when they do get sued, it's taxpayers who get stuck with the bill.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2022, 08:04:34 pm
That's why every police dept should have body cams.  We should all check if our local police have them and demand it if they don't.

Cameras are the only thing that can hold these types accountable.


I agree because they also hold perps accountable. There are issues with body cams that don't have anything to do with accountability, like privacy concerns when it comes to anyone who appears on the videos who are not part of the incident. Not an issue for you maybe but it sure as hell will when it comes to the courts .There are over 100K police officers in Canada. Even if you assume only a third of them are patrol officers and half of them are on a 12 hr shift at any one time, that means almost 200,000 hrs of video that must be stored every 24 hrs. How long do you keep it for and where do you store it?

I'm in favour of body cams but these are issues that have to be addressed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 04, 2022, 09:25:46 pm

I agree because they also hold perps accountable. There are issues with body cams that don't have anything to do with accountability, like privacy concerns when it comes to anyone who appears on the videos who are not part of the incident. Not an issue for you maybe but it sure as hell will when it comes to the courts .There are over 100K police officers in Canada. Even if you assume only a third of them are patrol officers and half of them are on a 12 hr shift at any one time, that means almost 200,000 hrs of video that must be stored every 24 hrs. How long do you keep it for and where do you store it?

I'm in favour of body cams but these are issues that have to be addressed.

The cloud?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 04, 2022, 10:07:06 pm
The cloud?

I suppose but that's 6 million hours of video a month. How log to you keep it? Even compressed you are talking about huge files.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 04, 2022, 10:37:52 pm
I suppose but that's 6 million hours of video a month. How log to you keep it? Even compressed you are talking about huge files.
YouTube still has crap I posted 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 04, 2022, 11:57:04 pm

I agree because they also hold perps accountable. There are issues with body cams that don't have anything to do with accountability, like privacy concerns when it comes to anyone who appears on the videos who are not part of the incident. Not an issue for you maybe but it sure as hell will when it comes to the courts .There are over 100K police officers in Canada. Even if you assume only a third of them are patrol officers and half of them are on a 12 hr shift at any one time, that means almost 200,000 hrs of video that must be stored every 24 hrs. How long do you keep it for and where do you store it?

I'm in favour of body cams but these are issues that have to be addressed.

Video recording people in public is fair game.  Legally there are no expectations of privacy while in public.  Anyone can legally video record anyone else while in public.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 05, 2022, 10:18:13 am
I suppose but that's 6 million hours of video a month. How log to you keep it? Even compressed you are talking about huge files.

Who said you have to keep every single minute forever? Also, they aren't recording every minute of every shift, but only interactions with the public/suspects.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2022, 11:04:13 pm
Who said you have to keep every single minute forever? Also, they aren't recording every minute of every shift, but only interactions with the public/suspects.


Not forever but it can easily take two years for cases to get to court in this country.

So the officers will just be turning them on at their discretion.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 05, 2022, 11:28:09 pm
This has been done throughout the US, it's a lot better than nothing.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2022, 09:20:57 am
This has been done throughout the US, it's a lot better than nothing.

Things like privacy laws are different in Canada so don’t expect rules surrounding it to be the same. I am in favour of their use however because I think they will show police acted correctly in the great majority of cases.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 06, 2022, 09:49:39 am

Not forever but it can easily take two years for cases to get to court in this country.

So the officers will just be turning them on at their discretion.

then they should be fired.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2022, 10:00:09 am
then they should be fired.

So they will have to be on all the time. Make up your mind.

For police haters it won't make any difference. If the cameras don't show what they want, they will just make up excuses why they don't.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 06, 2022, 10:01:53 am
You could say that about all forms of accountability.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 06, 2022, 10:04:10 am
So they will have to be on all the time. Make up your mind.

No the cameras would have to be on anytime they are interacting with the public. We don't need six hours of footage of someone sleeping in their patrol car.

Quote
For police haters it won't make any difference. If the cameras don't show what they want, they will just make up excuses why they don't.

We've seen what cops do when they know body cams are on or they are being filmed, one can only imagine how they behave when they aren't being recorded.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 06, 2022, 12:25:40 pm
Illinois Police Officer Resigns After White Supremacist Posts Surface Online (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/illinois-cop-resigns-after-white-supremacist-posts-surface-online_n_624b0e7ee4b068157f7a8e81?vqw)

Some of those who work forces etc etc. Hopefully this guy goes into his garage and [redacted] himself in the head.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2022, 01:07:15 pm
No the cameras would have to be on anytime they are interacting with the public. We don't need six hours of footage of someone sleeping in their patrol car.

We've seen what cops do when they know body cams are on or they are being filmed, one can only imagine how they behave when they aren't being recorded.

You keep outing yourself by doing exactly what I said you would.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 06, 2022, 01:12:17 pm
You keep outing yourself by doing exactly what I said you would.

You think it be like that but it don't.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2022, 01:27:52 pm
Illinois Police Officer Resigns After White Supremacist Posts Surface Online (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/illinois-cop-resigns-after-white-supremacist-posts-surface-online_n_624b0e7ee4b068157f7a8e81?vqw)

Some of those who work forces etc etc. Hopefully this guy goes into his garage and [redacted] himself in the head.

You continually post articles from the US. Can’t find much local it would seem.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 06, 2022, 02:08:26 pm
You continually post articles from the US. Can’t find much local it would seem.

So what?

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 10:17:52 am
Great example here of cops getting caught on camera (including their body cams) f*cking someone up and walking away because the system is designed to let cops off.

Buffalo cops who pushed protester Martin Gugino to ground cleared of wrongdoing (https://buffalonews.com/news/local/buffalo-cops-who-pushed-elderly-protester-martin-gugino-cleared-of-wrongdoing/article_a3618094-b777-11ec-8a0f-cff389273da2.html)

Quote
Torgalski and McCabe testified before the arbitrator that they were trying to protect themselves and denied that they were trying to hurt Gugino during the protest.

The officers’ use of physical force was “absolutely legitimate,” wrote Selchick, who added that, in his analysis, Gugino was “definitely not an innocent bystander.”

The arbitrator said the officers testified that they were only trying to move Gugino out of their “personal space” and physically keep Gugino away from their weapons.
...
He noted that Torgalski testified that he was concerned that Gugino was getting close to his police firearm. The officer said he was also worried that he might catch the Covid-19 virus from Gugino.

“Something wasn’t right and I don’t know what this gentlemen is capable of, but something (was) off about the situation that makes you feel uneasy,” the arbitrator quoted Torgalski as testifying.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 10:22:46 am
Oh and since wilber is so insistent that I find more Canadian examples of shitty cops, here's one about a city police service that is so racist people are calling for the whole thing to be disbanded

Report urges more re-investigations into deaths of Indigenous people in Thunder Bay, On (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/report-urges-more-re-investigations-into-deaths-of-indigenous-people-in-thunder-bay-ont-1.5823592)

Quote
The chair of the police board in Thunder Bay, Ont. has apologized to families following the completion of a report that re-examined the deaths of multiple Indigenous people and recommended investigations into more than a dozen other cases.

Ontario's Officer of the Chief Coroner released a report Thursday detailing the re-investigations of nine sudden deaths of Indigenous people in Thunder Bay.
...
The latest report is in response to some of the dozens of recommendations made in the Office of the Independent Police Review Director's examination of the Thunder Bay Police Service, entitled "Broken Trust," that was released in 2018.

The office found the service's failure to adequately investigate certain cases was in part due to "racist attitudes and racial stereotyping."

It also concluded that the sudden death investigations it reviewed were so "problematic" that at least nine should be reinvestigated.

"I find systemic racism exists in TBPS at an institutional level," then-director Gerry McNeilly said.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on April 19, 2022, 11:07:01 am
U.S. cop executes man during traffic stop (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/autopsy-confirms-patrick-lyoya-shot-head-police-officer-face-down)

Quote
Lawyers for the family of Patrick Lyoya, a Black man killed by police in western Michigan, have released results from an independent autopsy.

Video from a bystander showed that Lyoya, who was not armed, was on the ground when he was shot in the head during a struggle with a white Grand Rapids officer on 4 April.
...
On Tuesday the civil rights attorney Ben Crump, representing Lyoya’s family, announced: “Today, based on scientific evidence, we can confirm that Patrick Lyoya was shot in the back of the head … [in] what his family believes was an execution.”

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 30, 2022, 11:38:23 am
https://prospect.org/justice/why-uvalde-cops-were-too-cowardly-to-charge-a-mass-shooter/ (http://Why Uvalde Cops Were Too Cowardly to Charge a Mass Shooter)

Quote
After the Columbine shooting, where police waited outside for hours while a teacher bled to death, police are supposed to dash into the scene as fast as possible. They just didn’t do it. The reason is the powerful fear instilled by other parts of police training, as well as the overall police culture.
...
Grossman is something of an outlier, but as Isaac Scher writes at Insider, the basic outlines of his message are common throughout police trainings across the country, which have no national standards and are heavily based on junk science. By and large, cops are taught to be in quaking terror at all times, to view the local citizenry as infested with violent criminals, and to prioritize their own safety above all else. The overwhelming focus is on threats to the police themselves, not the public. There is virtually no time spent on diplomacy, de-escalation, or remaining calm under fire.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 30, 2022, 02:00:26 pm
U.S. cop executes man during traffic stop (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/autopsy-confirms-patrick-lyoya-shot-head-police-officer-face-down)

Maybe the back of his head was attacking the cop?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 30, 2022, 05:03:11 pm
Kansas City Police Shot An Unarmed Black Woman 5 Times. The Woman Had Her Hands Up. (https://www.kansascitydefender.com/justice/kcpd-shoot-unarmed-woman-five-times/)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 30, 2022, 07:52:55 pm
Kansas City Police Shot An Unarmed Black Woman 5 Times. The Woman Had Her Hands Up. (https://www.kansascitydefender.com/justice/kcpd-shoot-unarmed-woman-five-times/)

Pulled over for suspected stolen vehicle.  Male passenger ran and jumped the fence.  Woman had hands up, was unarmed, she said a gun was in the vehicle, cops told her to get on ground, she said she was pregnant and couldn't, then took some steps towards the fence, so cops drew their weapons, she began to run, the cops shot her 5 times then cuffed her.  She survived.

She did not comply with lawful orders and attempted to run, but could argue it was excessive force, they could have possibly tackled her, or tried to taser her.  We'd have to see the video.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 30, 2022, 10:20:22 pm
I don’t think a traffic violation should be an executable offence.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 30, 2022, 11:01:19 pm
I don’t think a traffic violation should be an executable offence.

Lyoya wasn't shot because of a traffic violation, it was that he got out of his car during the stop, would not comply with anything the cop said, then resisted arrested for quite a long time and fought with the cop and kept grabbing the cop's taser.  Eventually the victim got a hold of the taser then the cop grabbed his hand and made him drop it during the struggle and I think the victim picked it up again as you can hear the cop yelling to him "drop the taser!" right before the cop shot him.  Black dog conveniently left out all of this information in order to push his victim narrative.

On top of that, the plates didn't match the vehicle, meaning likely a stolen vehicle, he was driving with a suspended license because he's been caught driving intoxicated multiple times, he was legally intoxicated at the time of the stop, and there were 3 warrants out for his arrest LOL:

"At the time that Schurr pulled him over for having an improper vehicle registration – its license plates were registered to a different vehicle – Lyoya was on probation and his license had been revoked for a third time, most recently since March 20, 2022, following his third substance abuse conviction in 10 years. He also had three active warrants for his arrest: the first for a traffic accident on Christmas Day 2021 where Lyoya allegedly fled the scene; a second for failure to appear at a court hearing; and a third for domestic violence issued just three days before, after the mother of one of Lyoya's children accused him of punching her and smashing her face into a car in a dispute over bedsheets.[2][24][28] It was later determined that Lyoya had a blood alcohol content of 0.29, more than triple the legal limit of 0.08."

Video of incident:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/grand-rapids-police-shoot-black-man-lyoya-1.6419147

There's lots of times cops abuse their power, but a lot of these examples were brought on by the civilian.  If I ran from a cop or fought with a cop or grabbed their weapon I would assume I could be shot at any time.

Given this man's continuous criminal history he probably should have been deported at some point.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2022, 10:03:37 am
Lyoya wasn't shot because of a traffic violation, it was that he got out of his car during the stop, would not comply with anything the cop said, then resisted arrested for quite a long time and fought with the cop and kept grabbing the cop's taser.  Eventually the victim got a hold of the taser then the cop grabbed his hand and made him drop it during the struggle and I think the victim picked it up again as you can hear the cop yelling to him "drop the taser!" right before the cop shot him.  Black dog conveniently left out all of this information in order to push his victim narrative.

It was in the link I posted.

Anyway, you're missing the point, which is there was literally no reason for the cop to escalate the situation to the point of physical confrontation.

Quote
There's lots of times cops abuse their power, but a lot of these examples were brought on by the civilian.  If I ran from a cop or fought with a cop or grabbed their weapon I would assume I could be shot at any time.



Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 31, 2022, 12:22:48 pm
It was in the link I posted.

Anyway, you're missing the point, which is there was literally no reason for the cop to escalate the situation to the point of physical confrontation.]

The guy wasn't listening to his lawful orders.  If you're not cooperating and the cop tries to detain you it's not in your right to resist then flee and then fight a cop and grab his weapon.

If you get pulled over your supposed to sit in your car, roll down your window, place your hands on the wheel, and don't reach for anything, and if you have to reach for your wallet or anything tell the cops exactly what you're going to do.  You won't get shot doing this.  Tons of people are driving with a gun in their car in the US, cops are on edge.

They're are scared for their lives.  Put yourself in the cops shoes.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2022, 01:45:44 pm
The guy wasn't listening to his lawful orders.  If you're not cooperating and the cop tries to detain you it's not in your right to resist then flee and then fight a cop and grab his weapon.

The guy didn't run until the cop put hands on him. Watch the video: the cop instigated the physical confrontation. There was no danger of the guy grabbing the cop's weapon until the cop produced it. Hell, the guy couldn't even run 10 feet without tripping over his own pants.

Quote
If you get pulled over your supposed to sit in your car, roll down your window, place your hands on the wheel, and don't reach for anything, and if you have to reach for your wallet or anything tell the cops exactly what you're going to do.  You won't get shot doing this.  Tons of people are driving with a gun in their car in the US, cops are on edge.

They're are scared for their lives.  Put yourself in the cops shoes.

Yeah I'm aware many of these deadly encounters happen because cops are cowardly pissbabies who are taught to be constantly afraid of the public they're serving even though you have a better chance of getting shot if you're a toddler than a cop in that country. That's precisely part of the problem.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 31, 2022, 02:18:48 pm
The guy didn't run until the cop put hands on him. Watch the video: the cop instigated the physical confrontation. There was no danger of the guy grabbing the cop's weapon until the cop produced it. Hell, the guy couldn't even run 10 feet without tripping over his own pants.

That's not going to fly in court.  If you think a detainment or arrest is unlawful or a cop is infringing your rights while doing so you fight it in court after. You don't resist and fight the cop and grab his weapon. Unless you're cool with getting your ass kicked or getting tased or shot.

The guy was totally non-compliant so the cop went to put him in cuffs to detain him.  I don't like cops and will call them out when abuse happens, I just don't see it here.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2022, 02:51:07 pm
That's not going to fly in court.  If you think a detainment or arrest is unlawful or a cop is infringing your rights while doing so you fight it in court after. You don't resist and fight the cop and grab his weapon. Unless you're cool with getting your ass kicked or getting tased or shot.

The guy was totally non-compliant so the cop went to put him in cuffs to detain him.  I don't like cops and will call them out when abuse happens, I just don't see it here.

Who gives a s**t if the guy is "non-compliant"? That's no reason to escalate a situation into a physical confrontation if no one is in any immediate danger. But that's what cops do all the time: take mundane interactions and ramp them up into confrontations.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2022, 01:12:06 pm
Why are cops so bad at their jobs? (https://prospect.org/justice/why-are-police-so-bad-at-their-jobs/)

Quote
Since the 2020 Black Lives Matter demonstrations called for police budgets to be defunded, not a single major American city has slashed its police funding. In fact, almost all of them have ballooned spending on police forces. Repeatedly, President Biden has encouraged increased spending on police, recently calling on municipalities to direct their unspent COVID aid toward adding even more cops. The Biden administration requested $388 million in grant funding for police hiring in its 2022 budget proposal, more than double the top figure requested by the Trump administration. New York City even elected a former cop as its mayor, who just a few days ago announced a new PR campaign in support of cops and against the “defund the police” movement.

None of those moves have grappled with the historical ineffectiveness of current-day policing, or why police forces have been unable to convert generous budgets into effective crime-solving activities.
...
It’s clear that those record police budgets aren’t keeping crime from happening, or else the alleged record crime wave that has been covered breathlessly by local and national media would not be happening. There is evidence that more resources specifically for investigative work can improve clearance rates, but that’s far different from what today’s police budgets prioritize—mostly presence on the streets.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 02, 2022, 03:07:59 pm
Who gives a s**t if the guy is "non-compliant"? That's no reason to escalate a situation into a physical confrontation if no one is in any immediate danger. But that's what cops do all the time: take mundane interactions and ramp them up into confrontations.

Yeah this was the cops fault lol.  Maybe if he kept asking nicely or wrote him a polite letter the guy driving a stolen car without a valid license while drunk with 3 warrants out for his arrest including domestic violence would have responded lol.  Clearly they didn't give him enough leeway lol.

Hot tip:  Next time anybody with a gun comes up to you and tells you to do something, do it.  Also, avoid fighting them and grabbing a weapon of theirs.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 02, 2022, 04:54:21 pm
Yeah this was the cops fault lol.  Maybe if he kept asking nicely or wrote him a polite letter the guy driving a stolen car without a valid license while drunk with 3 warrants out for his arrest including domestic violence would have responded lol.  Clearly they didn't give him enough leeway lol.

You miss the point like it's your job.

Quote
Hot tip:  Next time anybody with a gun comes up to you and tells you to do something, do it.  Also, avoid fighting them and grabbing a weapon of theirs.

See the problem here is I'm approaching this from a normative perspective and you're not.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 02, 2022, 06:14:47 pm
See the problem here is I'm approaching this from a normative perspective and you're not.

No the problem here is you think this guy is somehow a victim and that he ever had any intention of ever complying with the law.

He had 3 warrants out for his arrest, so sounds like he wasn't showing up to court.  He lost his license from driving around drunk, but was still driving around drunk when the cop stopped him.  Then he resisted arrest.  He had no intention of ever following the law.

This human piece of crap was endangering innocent people's lives driving around drunk, he deserved to be in jail for life or dead.  Cop just saved taxpayers a whole bunch of money keeping this guy in a cell the rest of his life OR saved somebody's life that would have been killed when he inevitably got released.

Don't hit your woman.  No.  Don't drive drunk:  no.  Don't drive at all.  No.  Don't drive an unregistered vehicle.  No.  Come to court x3.  No x3.  Surrender to the police x3.  No x3.  Stay inside your vehicle.  No.  Put your hands behind your back.  No.  Don't run from a cop trying to detain you.  No.  Don't fight a cop.  No.  Let go of the taser.  No.  OMG cop why you escalate!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 03, 2022, 09:42:56 am
No the problem here is you think this guy is somehow a victim and that he ever had any intention of ever complying with the law.

No, I'm pretty clear about where i think this situation went pear shaped, you're just too dumb to address it.

Quote
Don't hit your woman.  No.  Don't drive drunk:  no.  Don't drive at all.  No.  Don't drive an unregistered vehicle.  No.  Come to court x3.  No x3.  Surrender to the police x3.  No x3.  Stay inside your vehicle.  No.  Put your hands behind your back.  No.  Don't run from a cop trying to detain you.  No.  Don't fight a cop.  No.  Let go of the taser.  No.  OMG cop why you escalate!

Again, the cop was the one who escalated things into a physical confrontation, not sure why that doesn't register in your pea brain.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 11, 2022, 06:17:20 pm
No, I'm pretty clear about where i think this situation went pear shaped, you're just too dumb to address it.

There's a dumb person here and it's not me.  I didn't get myself shot in the head because I'm not dumb enough to get into domestic emergencies with my partner, nor dumb enough to drive drunk, nor lose my license, nor get 3 warrants for my arrest and ignore them all, nor get put of my car during a traffic stop an refuse to get back in my car, , nor resist getting cuffed, nor wrestle with a cop, nor grab his weapon and refuse to drop it.

Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 12, 2022, 12:04:47 pm
There's a dumb person here and it's me.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

fixed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 14, 2022, 05:08:11 pm
Edmonton Police Service used murders of two men in Chinatown to push for more funding while somehow neglecting to mention they had a chance to apprehend the suspect prior to the killings but failed to do so (https://www.theprogressreport.ca/timeline_what_did_chief_mcfee_know_and_when_did_he_know_it).
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 23, 2022, 01:35:29 pm
Cops help fash Proud Boys disrupt kid's reading event an a local library. (https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1539647567063314432?s=20&t=2J6-8gkAbzu97xd3QTd-nw)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 02:19:55 pm
Cops help fash Proud Boys disrupt kid's reading event an a local library. (https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1539647567063314432?s=20&t=2J6-8gkAbzu97xd3QTd-nw)

So thugs are now free to intimidate people to disrupt anything they disagree with.   And the cops will show them to the correct room where the kids are located.  Awesome. 

This is the Republican base doing these things. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on June 23, 2022, 02:26:01 pm
So thugs are now free to intimidate people to disrupt anything they disagree with.   And the cops will show them to the correct room where the kids are located.  Awesome. 

This is the Republican base doing these things.

(https://i.imgflip.com/6knkik.jpg)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 24, 2022, 11:37:04 am
America can’t defund police.  They will need more of them so they can hunt down pregnant women to assess whether they had an actual miscarriage or if it was an illegal abortion.  It will take a lot of great detective work to figure out which women to jail. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2022, 02:05:04 pm
Ohio police release video of deadly shooting
 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62032964)

Quote
US police have released video of a chase in Akron, Ohio, which ended in a black man being shot dead, hit more than 60 times by pursuing officers.

Police say they believe Jayland Walker, 25, opened fire first and officers feared for their lives during the night-time traffic stop on 27 June.

Mr Walker was not armed when he ran away from his car but police say a pistol was later found inside it.

To cops, you're a threat if you're coming toward them and you're a threat if you're running away. it's like there's no circumstances in which they aren't terrified.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 05, 2022, 02:14:44 pm
Do what they say, follow their lawful orders, you're very unlikely to get shot.

However, 60 shots from cops seems extremely excessive.

Suspicious about what the cops said about him firing a gun that was found in his car.  If he did indeed shoot, well, game over.  But cops lie and plant evidence.  Courts will have to decide this.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2022, 03:30:10 pm
Do what they say, follow their lawful orders, you're very unlikely to get shot.

Daniel Shaver would disagree if the cops hadn't murdered him in cold blood while he was on his knees.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on July 15, 2022, 06:56:58 pm
I'm beginning to think you can't reform an entrenched gang with legal immunity. You have to burn it down and start over.
https://twitter.com/WHEC_JLewke/status/1547756019983323139?t=8osqEZ0XEoUpMcVDSZ-9CQ&s=09
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 15, 2022, 09:25:43 pm
I'm beginning to think you can't reform an entrenched gang with legal immunity. You have to burn it down and start over.
https://twitter.com/WHEC_JLewke/status/1547756019983323139?t=8osqEZ0XEoUpMcVDSZ-9CQ&s=09

The best videos are the ones where the different gangs get in gang wars with each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiCan_Rpkeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOInYwP8-Es
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on July 22, 2022, 03:51:51 pm
Florida cops collect change for homeless, keep the money for themselves:
 (https://www.cltampa.com/news/st-pete-police-hoarded-change-from-donation-stations-that-say-the-money-helps-the-homeless-13842818)
Quote
Around downtown St. Petersburg, there are "Power of Change" donation stations, which are repurposed parking meters that claim a donor's contribution will, "help provide for homeless families and individuals."

Nowhere on the stations is it mentioned that the money is actually going to the St. Petersburg Police Department's budget, nor is it clear that very little of the donations are actually going to the homeless community.

According to numbers sent to Creative Loafing Tampa Bay by SPPD on July 20, in FY22, zero dollars have gone to the homeless community from the donation stations.

Meanwhile, about $9,842 of donors' change has been stockpiled by the department, as of June.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2022, 09:23:44 am
Florida cops collect change for homeless, keep the money for themselves:
 (https://www.cltampa.com/news/st-pete-police-hoarded-change-from-donation-stations-that-say-the-money-helps-the-homeless-13842818)
Don’t know of any place where police control parking meters. Maybe you should save some of your outrage for the city council which does.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on July 24, 2022, 10:09:53 pm
Don’t know of any place where police control parking meters. Maybe you should save some of your outrage for the city council which does.

The fu*ck are you talking about.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 18, 2022, 03:39:48 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the results of defunding the police...

‘It’s scary’: North Portland families sell their homes to escape homeless camps, crime
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/north-portland-families-sell-homes-to-escape-crime/283-7057c2ec-980d-42ac-90ae-80e00ab7ed8f

Heckuva job "progressives"!  The worst part is that we have **** libs here, domestic chickenhawks, that cheer on these types of policies, knowing that they're far away from the consequences. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 18, 2022, 03:45:20 pm
I can recall you recently cheering Trump doxxing the officers that executed the warrant on his place and calling the whole FBI corrupt. Seems you haven't reconciled your conflicting memes yet, Police State shady.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 18, 2022, 03:53:53 pm
I can recall you recently cheering Trump doxxing the officers that executed the warrant on his place and calling the whole FBI corrupt. Seems you haven't reconciled your conflicting memes yet, Police State shady.
It's a public document, and the FBI aren't undercover.  There's no such thing as "doxxing" them.  However, I'm not surprised that you're a proponent of a secret police, where officers can raid your home, etc under the cover of complete anonymity.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 18, 2022, 03:58:37 pm
The official version redacts officers' names so anti-police nutcases like you don't make death threats on their families...like you did.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 18, 2022, 04:21:39 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the results of defunding the police...

‘It’s scary’: North Portland families sell their homes to escape homeless camps, crime
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/north-portland-families-sell-homes-to-escape-crime/283-7057c2ec-980d-42ac-90ae-80e00ab7ed8f

Heckuva job "progressives"!  The worst part is that we have **** libs here, domestic chickenhawks, that cheer on these types of policies, knowing that they're far away from the consequences.

Yawn. Shitposter's gonna shitpost.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 18, 2022, 04:50:53 pm
Yawn. Shitposter's gonna shitpost.
And shitlib domestic chicken hawk gonna chicken hawk and not care about the consequences of their disastrous policies.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 18, 2022, 04:55:23 pm
And shitlib domestic chicken hawk gonna chicken hawk and not care about the consequences of their disastrous policies.

blah blah blah blah. Asking you to back any of this up is like asking a particularly stupid chimp to recite one of Shakespeare's sonnets.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 19, 2022, 07:28:25 am
And shitlib domestic chicken hawk gonna chicken hawk and not care about the consequences of their disastrous policies.
This is a GD democracy not a facking police state, even though people like you are fighting hard to make it that way.  You’re another mouthpiece for the security state.  Muh security!!!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2022, 09:47:00 am

This is a GD democracy not a facking police state, even though people like you are fighting hard to make it that way.  You’re another mouthpiece for the security state.  Muh security!!!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on August 19, 2022, 09:55:30 am
How many communities ACTUALLY defunded and what were the terms??
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 19, 2022, 10:02:39 am
How many communities ACTUALLY defunded and what were the terms??

A handful of places saw relatively small reductions on their police budgets. All of them are back to where they were before 2020.

More relevant, however, is the fact that crime and homelessness are issues in many places including those that never defunded the police. I've pointed this out numerous times, but some people are too dumb or too ideologically invested to grasp.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on August 19, 2022, 10:17:20 am
Phew... For a second we were on the verge of a substantive discussion about services.

Thanks FOX..
 or whoever...
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 19, 2022, 11:00:44 am
Phew... For a second we were on the verge of a substantive discussion about services.

Thanks FOX..
 or whoever...

Also the idea that police budgets and homelessness are dependent is bizarre.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 20, 2022, 01:35:09 pm
MAGA candidate Luis Miguel recently said that under his plan, people would be allowed to shoot FBI on sight. So much for "defending the Blue."

https://twitter.com/David13977530/status/1560695935533027328?t=B09nkjw7L4clwcb0NlKsNw&s=19
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 20, 2022, 04:30:04 pm
Liz Cheney won't be re-elected.  She didn't even make it to the ballot.

This is bad in that she is very anti-Trump and trying to jail the bastard.  But this is good in that the Cheney's are scum of the earth and shouldn't hold office.  The GOP civil war is a giant freakshow.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on August 20, 2022, 06:38:48 pm
She will still be around till January.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 21, 2022, 07:57:01 am
GOP candidate Martin Hyde who, earlier this year, was caught on video berating a police officer for stopping him for speeding, stating the classic "Do you know who I am?", recently said if the FBI searched his home they would wind up in body bags.
Sounds like he's hiding something in his home to me.

https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/2022/08/20/sarasota-vern-buchanan-opponent-martin-hyde-threatens-kill-fbi-agents/7854011001/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 21, 2022, 03:27:46 pm
Brought to you by Democrat woke pieces of crap, cheered on by woke pieces of crap in this forum.  Domestic chicken hawk’s, living in places like Alberta and Manitoba, free of having to worry about the places they live in adopting the same disastrous policies, and free of any of the consequences of it.

The death of downtown: San Francisco, Cleveland and Portland have seen activity drop by almost 50 percent - as soaring crime in the Democrat-run cities forces workers, tourists and homeowners away
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126101/Portland-San-Francisco-Cleveland-Americas-deserted-downtown-areas.html#l72nlgr4kwgcujes4tl

Congratulations on ruining society based on some f**ked up vision of equality.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 21, 2022, 04:40:34 pm
How do you define "woke"?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 21, 2022, 06:10:01 pm
Brought to you by Democrat woke pieces of crap, cheered on by woke pieces of crap in this forum.  Domestic chicken hawk’s, living in places like Alberta and Manitoba, free of having to worry about the places they live in adopting the same disastrous policies, and free of any of the consequences of it.

B!tch you live in the Bad London.

Quote
The death of downtown: San Francisco, Cleveland and Portland have seen activity drop by almost 50 percent - as soaring crime in the Democrat-run cities forces workers, tourists and homeowners away
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11126101/Portland-San-Francisco-Cleveland-Americas-deserted-downtown-areas.html#l72nlgr4kwgcujes4tl

Congratulations on ruining society based on some f**ked up vision of equality.

Lol the Daily Fail link too, not a single living brain cell in your head. I love how it references the booming activity in Bakersfield but somehow fails to mention that it has the highest homicide rate in the state. Oh and that Salt Lake and Columbus are also run by Democrats. You dumb motherfucker.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 21, 2022, 09:22:30 pm
How do you define "woke"?

Personally I want to know what woke policies were in effect back in the 70s/80s/90s when crime rates were several orders of magnitude higher than they are today.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 22, 2022, 02:28:39 pm
Oopsie.

Quote
The Omaha Police Department (OPD) in Nebraska plans to trade tens of thousands of dollars' worth of expired helmets and bulletproof gear for roughly $3,000 worth of firearm equipment in a deal with a local tactical shop that has hosted international far-right politicians and an anti-Muslim speaker.
...
NAGV and local activists have also accused Tactical 88 of including Nazi messaging in its branding, something the company adamantly rejects. NAGV called 88 Tactical “a gun business with disturbing Nazi branding” in its press release about the swap. It noted that “88” is a code used by neo-Nazis for “Heil Hitler,” the Nazi salute. (“H” is the eighth letter of the alphabet.)
...
Another screenshot of the inside of 88 Tactical’s shooting range shows an elevation map with the highest point at an elevation of 1488 feet. But according to Peak Bagger, a website that tracks elevations, Omaha’s highest point is around 1,270 feet.

Frequently linked to white supremacy, the numerical combination “1488” combines code for “Heil Hitler” and the 14 Words, a white nationalist saying that extremist David Lane coined. The 14 Words refers to securing a future for white children.
...

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2022/08/22/emails-show-omaha-police-planned-deal-far-right-linked-gun-shop
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 22, 2022, 05:49:30 pm
Another great day for the Defund crowd!  Heckuva job sh*t stains.

Moment disabled man, 66, is beaten to death with metal pole in Seattle 'by serial criminal who judge freed on felony charges eight days earlier, after telling killer not to commit any more crimes'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11131207/Moment-disabled-man-66-beaten-death-Seattle-serial-criminal-judge-freed.html#l741yvwl8bg1fosxg8
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 22, 2022, 05:54:14 pm
So you're completely unable to define the term "woke" even though you use it all the time? Don't you worry you might be making yourself look stupid?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 22, 2022, 06:50:35 pm
So you're completely unable to define the term "woke" even though you use it all the time? Don't you worry you might be making yourself look stupid?
Woke is the alt-left.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 22, 2022, 07:15:33 pm
Sums up the Defund folks perfectly.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 22, 2022, 08:50:55 pm
Woke is the alt-left.
Alt-left doesn't mean anything. You are alt-right, which is a real term. Are you saying they're the stupid, extremist version of the left, as you are to the right?
But I'm not asking who they are. I'm asking what it means to you
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 22, 2022, 09:12:41 pm
Sums up the Defund folks perfectly.



How does this relate to the “defund” issue?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 23, 2022, 09:50:22 am
Another great day for the Defund crowd!  Heckuva job sh*t stains.

Moment disabled man, 66, is beaten to death with metal pole in Seattle 'by serial criminal who judge freed on felony charges eight days earlier, after telling killer not to commit any more crimes'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11131207/Moment-disabled-man-66-beaten-death-Seattle-serial-criminal-judge-freed.html#l741yvwl8bg1fosxg8

If only the judge had access to a precog like in Minority Report this never would have happened.

For a guy who cries constantly about living in a police state and whines about other lawbreakers (the Jan. 6 and convoy dipshit) catching charges, you seem downright aroused by the idea of the state detaining people accused of non-violent offenses indefinitely provided those people are members of the underclass.
 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 23, 2022, 09:52:35 am
How does this relate to the “defund” issue?

You're asking this like he's ever give the entire issue any thought. Shady couldn't possibly tell you what cities "defunded" the police or why cities that didn't pledge to do so also saw increases is crime. We all know he's only here to vomit up talking points he's read elsewhere with no critical thought. Ever has been thus.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 23, 2022, 04:30:26 pm
Alt-left doesn't mean anything. You are alt-right, which is a real term. Are you saying they're the stupid, extremist version of the left, as you are to the right?
But I'm not asking who they are. I'm asking what it means to you

Alt-right was a term that white nationalist Richard Spencer cooked up to describe his politics. No left winger has ever used the term "alt-left" to describe themselves.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 23, 2022, 05:09:06 pm
It's ironic because they use it to signify "crazy extremist wing", forgetting that it's the crazy, extremist alt-right that controls the Republican Party. The tattoo-faced so-called "alt-left" doesn't even get invited to the Dem convention.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 23, 2022, 06:53:35 pm
It's ironic because they use it to signify "crazy extremist wing", forgetting that it's the crazy, extremist alt-right that controls the Republican Party. The tattoo-faced so-called "alt-left" doesn't even get invited to the Dem convention.

To fanatics like Shiddy, the likes of Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are far left socialists so you can't expect much nuance from them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 23, 2022, 06:58:19 pm
Once again, top notch job defunder sh*t stains.

10 career criminals racked up nearly 500 arrests since NY bail reform began
https://nypost.com/2022/08/03/career-criminals-rack-up-nearly-500-arrests-since-ny-bail-reform-began/amp/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 23, 2022, 07:07:09 pm
Once again, top notch job defunder sh*t stains.

10 career criminals racked up nearly 500 arrests since NY bail reform began
https://nypost.com/2022/08/03/career-criminals-rack-up-nearly-500-arrests-since-ny-bail-reform-began/amp/

It's not their fault, they're victims, we need to feel bad for them and not hold them accountable for their actions.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 23, 2022, 08:26:45 pm
500 arrests? Sounds like there are plenty of police to go around.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 23, 2022, 08:34:45 pm
Lol. Lmao.
Quote
Larceny charges account for 74 of the recent arrests, all of which took place in Manhattan, where District Attorney Alvin Bragg has come under fire for the soft-on-crime policies he imposed after taking office on Jan. 1.

The career crook has 15 convictions, including three for felonies, and failed to appear in court at least 14 times, leading to the issuance of a “significant” number of bench warrants, according to the NYPD.

Gooding has also violated parole and probation and has two pending prosecutions for thefts from various Target stores on five separate occasions.

Imagine crying about the creeping police state when some fat oaf steals top secret document ms and then demanding a chronic shoplifter get locked up without trial.

Also:

Quote
“The numbers don’t lie, and last week, multiple outlets reported on data released by the New York State Office of Court Administration showing that bail reform has had little impact on recidivism and as an overall driver of crime, despite the repeated attempts by this Administration to cherry-pick a handful of cases to misguide New Yorkers and convince them that bail reform is responsible for all of society’s ills,” the statement said.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on August 27, 2022, 12:26:57 pm
The alt-left:  Defund the police!

What about the FBI?  They’re more powerful.

The alt-left:  Nah, they’re going after Trump.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on August 27, 2022, 01:31:57 pm
Defunding the police doesn't mean getting rid of the police. Nor does it mean attacking them at the Capitol or sending death threats to their families for executing a lawful warrant.
It means transferring funding for some responsibilities to other organizations, such as the responsibility for doing wellness checks and attending to family disturbances.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 27, 2022, 04:11:35 pm
The alt-left:  Defund the police!

What about the FBI?  They’re more powerful.

The alt-left:  Nah, they’re going after Trump.


This retard actually thinks the left likes the FBI. Lol
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on August 27, 2022, 05:08:59 pm
It's a byproduct of people thinking that the left likes Biden.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 31, 2022, 10:22:23 am
It's extremely funny that rightards think Biden is some kind of socialist darling of the left when he wants to blow a bunch of money on hiring more cops. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/08/01/fact-sheet-president-bidens-safer-america-plan-2/)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on August 31, 2022, 11:34:12 am
Ex-Louisville police officer pleads guilty to Breonna Taylor cover-up
 (https://www.reuters.com/legal/former-louisville-officer-plead-guilty-breonna-taylor-cover-up-2022-08-23/)

Quote
A former Louisville detective pleaded guilty in federal court on Tuesday to helping falsify a search warrant that led to the killing of Breonna Taylor, a Black woman whose death fueled a wave of protests over police violence against people of color.

Goodlett pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy, becoming the first officer to be held criminally responsible for the botched raid. Goodlett was accused of conspiring with another detective to falsify the warrant that led to the raid and covering up the falsification.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on September 07, 2022, 08:54:05 am
The defunders strike again!  Your coddling of criminals in the name of some warped idea of equity is starting to hit closer to home.

Hmmmm.... not a defund thing I'm guessing...

Wait for an actual example please.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 07, 2022, 10:11:08 am
Hmmmm.... not a defund thing I'm guessing...

Wait for an actual example please.

Message deleted for excessive stupidity.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 14, 2022, 04:11:09 pm
So a guy in Colorado gets his car stuck and apparently has a mental breakdown, calls 9-11, who sends the cops. The cops hang around to try to get the guy to leave the car before evidently getting bored and deciding to just kill him instead.

Quote
After getting stuck on a dirt road in Clear Creek County in June, Christian Glass called 911 for help.

Instead, the 22-year-old was killed while locked inside his own car after a long, tense, confusing and chaotic confrontation played out between him and Clear Creek deputies and a handful of other agencies. Video footage was released by his family’s lawyers.

Glass’s parents, Sally and Simon Glass, spoke to reporters Tuesday to try and clear their son’s name and announce their intention to eventually sue the responding agencies responsible for their son’s death.

“From beginning to end, the officers escalated and proactively initiated force,” Glass’ family lawyers, Siddhartha Rathod and Qusair Mohamedbhai, said, in a release. “And yet, these officers, including the one who killed Christian, are still in uniform and have paid no price for their conduct. Our country cannot continue to tolerate this level of extreme violence by law enforcement. The act of simply calling 911 for help cannot be a death sentence.”
The whole thing is insane. (https://www.cpr.org/2022/09/13/clear-creek-county-deputies-shooting/)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 20, 2022, 11:40:09 am
This thread is nuts: the LAPD are doing drive-bys (https://twitter.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1571918547026350080?s=20&t=kg-brm45Pi6FPisq65zbAA).
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 20, 2022, 03:28:06 pm
Real geniuses at work here (https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article265981831.html#storylink=cpy).

Quote
A Colorado Bureau of Investigation news release said a Platteville police officer investigating a road rage incident stopped the woman at 7:30 p.m. Friday, Sept. 16, near U.S. 85 and Weld County Road 38. The woman stopped “just past the railroad tracks” and the officer stopped behind her “on the tracks,” the release said.

Two Fort Lupton police officers arrived and they detained the woman, a Greeley resident, who was suspected of having a firearm, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation reported. Officers placed the woman in the back of the Platteville officer’s patrol car and went to search her vehicle, the release said. A train traveling northbound then hit the police car, the agency said.

The woman was hospitalized with a “significant brain injury” the Colorado State Patrol told KMGH. No officers were hurt in the crash.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 20, 2022, 04:03:07 pm
This thread is nuts: the LAPD are doing drive-bys (https://twitter.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1571918547026350080?s=20&t=kg-brm45Pi6FPisq65zbAA).

LA still have cops?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 10:09:28 am
Cops hate dogs (police kill more than 10,000 dogs each year) and not even police dogs are safe:

MPD K9 dies after being left in hot squad car.
 (https://www.dcnewsnow.com/news/local-news/washington-dc/mpd-bomb-k9-dies-in-hot-car/)

Quote
Police said that the K9, seven-year-old Rocket, was in a car that was left secured and idling on New York Avenue. His handler found him already dead after returning to the car.

MPD K9 cars have a temperature monitoring and alarm system that should go off if the inside of a car gets too hot.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 23, 2022, 11:45:31 am
Dogs hate cops.  Dog attacks cop.  Cop shoots dog.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 12:03:52 pm
Dogs hate cops.  Dog attacks cop.  Cop shoots dog.

Cops shoot dogs for things like "barking at them" or "coming toward them with their tails wagging (https://reason.com/2022/03/17/police-officer-kills-dog-for-walking-toward-him-with-tail-wagging/)." Sometimes they shoot service dogs (https://iheartdogs.com/family-finally-receives-150000-settlement-after-service-dogs-were-shot-by-police/). Sometimes they try to kill dogs and accidentally kill people instead (https://reason.com/2019/08/05/body-camera-footage-shows-officer-killing-woman-while-firing-at-nonthreatening-dog/). They also kill dogs in black/brown communities more often (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/cops-shooting-dogs-police-violence-racism.html), if you can imagine that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 01:04:47 pm
This thread is nuts: the LAPD are doing drive-bys (https://twitter.com/FilmThePoliceLA/status/1571918547026350080?s=20&t=kg-brm45Pi6FPisq65zbAA).

Apparently not just LA cops: Video Shows Chicago Cop Shoot Unarmed Man From Unmarked Car In Pilsen (https://blockclubchicago.org/2022/09/20/video-shows-cop-shoot-unarmed-man-from-unmarked-car-in-pilsen/)

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 23, 2022, 02:08:26 pm
Cops shoot dogs for things like "barking at them" or "coming toward them with their tails wagging (https://reason.com/2022/03/17/police-officer-kills-dog-for-walking-toward-him-with-tail-wagging/)." Sometimes they shoot service dogs (https://iheartdogs.com/family-finally-receives-150000-settlement-after-service-dogs-were-shot-by-police/). Sometimes they try to kill dogs and accidentally kill people instead (https://reason.com/2019/08/05/body-camera-footage-shows-officer-killing-woman-while-firing-at-nonthreatening-dog/). They also kill dogs in black/brown communities more often (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/cops-shooting-dogs-police-violence-racism.html), if you can imagine that.

That's why dogs hate cops
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on September 23, 2022, 02:27:27 pm
That's why dogs hate cops
Perps hate dogs too.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 03:04:08 pm
That's why dogs hate cops

I'm talking dogs and cops and you haven't come back with a Paw Patrol picture? You're slipping old man.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 03:04:42 pm
Perps hate dogs too.

lol wtf does this even mean.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on September 28, 2022, 10:11:41 am
Guy shoots his wife, kidnaps his 15 year old daughter, cops catch up with him, there's a shootout and, well, whoopise (https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/kidnapping-suspect-daughter-killed-during-shootout-with-deputies-in-hesperia/):

Quote
Deputies also revealed that Savannah Graziano, the 15-year-old girl at the center of Monday's Amber Alert was also fatally shot during Tuesday's shootout, where she was allegedly wearing tactical gear. They reported that she charged at the deputies in the middle of the firefight, and that she was possibly firing at them with her father.

Two things I already know to be 100% true:

1. The girl will be found to not have been wearing "tactical gear"
2. The girl will be found to not have been firing at the cops
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 03, 2022, 04:38:18 pm
Oh word?

Amber Alert teen killed in law enforcement shootout was likely unarmed, state AG says (https://www.foxla.com/news/hesperia-amber-alert-teen-killed-by-law-enforcement-in-shootout-was-likely-unarmed-state-ag-says)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 04, 2022, 02:23:30 pm
Shot (https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/coroner-says-death-of-lapd-officer-during-training-exercise-was-an-accident-houston-tipping/):

Quote
The Los Angeles Coroner's Office said the officer that died during a training exercise at the Los Angeles Police Academy in late May was an accident.
...
According to Coroner's Office,  32-year-old LAPD officer Houston Tipping died of a spinal cord injury after a grappling exercise. During the exercise, Tipping — and the student —  fell to the ground onto his neck which fractured part of his vertebrae and ultimately led to his death. The officer also suffered several other injuries.

Chaser (https://reason.com/2022/10/04/lapd-officer-killed-during-training-exercise-was-reportedly-investigating-cops-accused-of-gang-****/):

Quote
"I think murder is what occurred." The family of a Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) officer killed during a training exercise is suing the department for wrongful death. The officer, Houston Tipping, was 32 years old; he died during a Los Angeles Police Academy bicycle training exercise last May. The family's lawyer now says one of the other officers involved in the exercise was under investigation for sexual assault—and that Tipping had taken the incident report.

"I'm certainly alleging that at least one officer engaged in an abuse of force in order to try and scare or harm Officer Tipping in order to prevent him from investigating a claim of ****," the lawyer, Bradley Gage, said at a Monday press conference.

According to Gage, Tipping had been searching for a job outside of the LAPD at the time of his death. The training at which he sustained injuries "was supposed to be bicycle training," but somehow wound up entailing the "grappling exercise" that the LAPD says killed him.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 13, 2022, 10:27:23 am
Completely irredeemable. Time to burn it down and start over.
https://twitter.com/mackio_/status/1579870140044574721?t=AsULhbyh0kOM3y-SVlH6dw&s=19
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 10:40:14 am
Completely irredeemable. Time to burn it down and start over.
https://twitter.com/mackio_/status/1579870140044574721?t=AsULhbyh0kOM3y-SVlH6dw&s=19

The follow up:

Keller to Pay $200K to Man Pepper Sprayed by Police After He Videotaped Son's Traffic Stop, Lawyer Says
 (https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/keller-to-pay-200k-to-man-pepper-sprayed-by-police-after-he-videotaped-sons-traffic-stop-lawyer-says/2534006/)

Quote
The city of Keller has agreed to pay $200,000 to a man who was pepper-sprayed and arrested after he videotaped a police officer who pulled over his son for making a wide right turn, according to the father’s attorney.

Marco Puente filed a lawsuit in federal court in Fort Worth last month against two Keller police officers alleging excessive force and illegal arrest in the Aug. 15 incident.

According to the officers’ body camera footage, Marco Puente’s son Dillon was pulled over by Sgt. Blake Shimanek for making a wide right turn.

Dillon Puente’s father soon appeared at the scene in a separate vehicle and started to videotape what was going on from across the street.

That’s when Shimanek ordered another officer, Ankit Tomer, to arrest the father and pepper spray him. Tomer was also named in the lawsuit.

Both the father and son were taken to jail but police supervisors quickly dropped the charges after they reviewed the case and Shimanek was demoted to officer.

EDIT:

Former Keller Officer Indicted After Controversial Arrest Of Father Filming Son's Traffic Stop
 (https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/former-keller-officer-blake-shimanek-indicted-arrest-father-filming-traffic-stop/)

Quote
A former Keller officer has been indicted after an incident in August 2020 involving the pepper spraying and arrest of a father who was filming his son's traffic stop.

Former Sgt. Blake Shimanek was charged with official oppression, a Class A misdemeanor with jail time of up to one year. Shimanek resigned from the department earlier this year.

Rare W for police accountability.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 13, 2022, 01:36:19 pm
1. There's no law saying you can't roll up your window.  You can't arrest a guy for rolling up their window.

2.  There's no law saying you can't video record cops.  The father was from a safe distance and wasn't interfering with the police, and wasn't "blocking the roadway".  The moment they touched the father for video recording it was illegal assault by the cops and unlawful arrest.

These are just very bad cops.  I've watched a lot of police audit videos on Youtube, a lot of cops will do or say dumb stuff but most aren't nearly this bad, these are about as bad as you can get, I hope they were fired, they did literally everything wrong, and were making up their own laws and then enforcing them with violence.  Most bad cops will just make their own laws hoping you'll comply and when you don't they back off because they know they're full of BS.  The amazing thing is that these idiots were filming themselves doing all this on bodycam lol.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on October 13, 2022, 01:40:59 pm
1. There's no law saying you can't roll up your window.  You can't arrest a guy for rolling up their window.

2.  There's no law saying you can't video record cops.  The father was from a safe distance and wasn't interfering with the police, and wasn't "blocking the roadway".  The moment they touched the father for video recording it was illegal assault by the cops and unlawful arrest.

These are just very bad cops.  I've watched a lot of police audit videos on Youtube, a lot of cops will do or say dumb stuff but most aren't nearly this bad, these are about as bad as you can get, I hope they were fired, they did literally everything wrong, and were making up their own laws and then enforcing them with violence.  Most bad cops will just make their own laws hoping you'll comply and when you don't they back off because they know they're full of BS.  The amazing thing is that these idiots were filming themselves doing all this on bodycam lol.
Exactly.  There are bad cops, just like there are bad teachers, bad doctors, etc.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 02:28:05 pm
Exactly.  There are bad cops, just like there are bad teachers, bad doctors, etc.

American teachers and doctors don't get special legal carve-outs exempting them from liability for misconduct. They also don't get to carry guns or steal your money.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 13, 2022, 02:55:21 pm
I can see why you would attack teachers after you failed so miserably at school.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 02:58:42 pm
American teachers bilk taxpayers of tens millions of dollars every year, while propagandizing children, and failing to teach them basic skills.  Which is why test scores continue to plummet despite massive increases in funding over the last two decades.  There's also an epidemic of teachers sexually assaulting children.

You're just supposed to lick the boot, not deep throat it you dumb fash c*nt.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on October 13, 2022, 03:02:04 pm
You're just supposed to lick the boot, not deep throat it you dumb fash c*nt.
There you go again, allergic to facts.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 03:05:02 pm
There you go again, allergic to facts.

Oh so you ARE supposed to deep throat the boot? Well, I'll take it from you, the expert.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Based Shady on October 13, 2022, 03:08:31 pm
Oh so you ARE supposed to deep throat the boot? Well, I'll take it from you, the expert.
Keep ignoring facts face f**k. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 03:08:35 pm
wild that there's just so many bad apples

Former San Antonio officer who shot teen in McDonald's parking lot arrested
 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/james-brennand-arrested-assault-charges-erik-cantu-shooting-mcdonalds-parking-lot-san-antonio/)

Quote
Brennand shot 17-year-old Erik Cantu on Oct. 2. Body camera video showed Brennand walking toward a parked car in a McDonald's parking lot. He then opened the driver side door and ordered Cantu to get out of the car. Cantu, holding a hamburger, appeared shocked and reversed the car.

As the car backed away, the open door struck Brennand. About five seconds after he had opened the door, Brennand fired five rounds into the car. He fired an additional five shots as the car drove away.

Brennand, who had been on the force for less than one year, violated his training and police procedures after approaching the car, police training commander Alyssa Campos said in a statement announcing he had been fired.

I'd bet the only reason this guy got fired was because he hadn't finished his probation.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 03:09:11 pm
Keep ignoring facts face f**k.

The fact is you're a bootlicking loser who can't even get a basic insult like fuckface right, fuckface.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 13, 2022, 03:25:56 pm
Why are you projecting about groomers now? What did you do?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 03:31:29 pm
There's just as many bad apples in the teacher's union.  But you don't care about them, because groomers tend to support that.

BUH WHatBoUtTism, f*ck off loser go ask some cop to bugger you with a nightstick.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 13, 2022, 03:32:49 pm
I'm enjoying that you're getting so aggravated face f**k.

Me thinking you're a retard who should kill himself is my default mode.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 14, 2022, 11:05:29 am
Some of those that work forces are the same. that burn crosses.

Quote
A Massachusetts police officer attended the deadly “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, five years ago and acted in key security and planning roles, HuffPost has confirmed. He also used an alias to post racist and antisemitic comments online. The officer, John Donnelly, was still an active-duty member of the police force until Thursday, shortly after HuffPost inquired about his status with the department and role in the deadly white supremacist rally.

Donnelly, 33, was a patrolman for the Woburn Police Department near Boston, where he has been employed since 2015.
...
Donnelly was among hundreds of white supremacists who invaded the university town. His fellow attendees violently attacked counterprotesters, with one neo-Nazi driving his car into a crowd of anti-fascists, killing a 32-year-old woman and injuring 19 others. That evening, Donnelly went to a party at a house near Charlottesville, where he joined in a celebration of the day’s events.

Donnelly then returned to Massachusetts and resumed his job as a cop.

His white supremacist activism and involvement in the Charlottesville rally has gone unknown for five years, during which time Donnelly — while still working as a police officer — became the president of a “back the blue” nonprofit raising money for law enforcement, as well as an award-winning real estate agent whose face is featured on a massive billboard in Woburn, a Boston suburb.

He Marched At The Nazi Rally In Charlottesville. Then He Went Back To Being A Cop.
 (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-donnelly-police-officer-charlottesville-white-supremacist-woburn-massachusetts_n_634856a1e4b08e0e60812d63)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 14, 2022, 01:07:52 pm
wild that there's just so many bad apples

Former San Antonio officer who shot teen in McDonald's parking lot arrested
 (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/james-brennand-arrested-assault-charges-erik-cantu-shooting-mcdonalds-parking-lot-san-antonio/)

I'd bet the only reason this guy got fired was because he hadn't finished his probation.

They try to frame it as "innocent person just eating hamburger gets shot by cops".  They conveniently ignore that he ran from the cop on 2 occasions including right before the shooting, which is why the cop shot at him.

I don't know what the procedure was, I assume not shooting the guy, maybe get their plates and then show up at their house and arrest them....unless the car is stolen. But if I ran from the cops I wouldn't be surprised if they started shooting at me.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 14, 2022, 01:22:25 pm
They try to frame it as "innocent person just eating hamburger gets shot by cops".  They conveniently ignore that he ran from the cop on 2 occasions including right before the shooting, which is why the cop shot at him.

Except he didn't. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/12/hamburger-eating-teenager-not-driving-stolen-car-when-shot-cop/10482048002/)

Quote
I don't know what the procedure was, I assume not shooting the guy, maybe get their plates and then show up at their house and arrest them....unless the car is stolen. But if I ran from the cops I wouldn't be surprised if they started shooting at me.

If someone opened my car door and stuck a gun in my face without announcing they're police, I'd probably try to GTFO too.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 14, 2022, 02:48:20 pm
Except he didn't. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/12/hamburger-eating-teenager-not-driving-stolen-car-when-shot-cop/10482048002/)

He fled the cops, twice apparently.

Quote
If someone opened my car door and stuck a gun in my face without announcing they're police, I'd probably try to GTFO too.

You think this is what happened?  I assume he was wearing a uniform. When a cop sticks a gun in your face

The cop didn't stick a gun in his face, that's a lie.  The cop opened the door, told him to get out of the car (there's no way he couldn't see his uniform with the car door fully open) then the guy started to change gears into reverse, so then the cop tried to grab the guy out of the car with 2 free hands (no gun) before he was able to escape.  When the guy was free and driving away the cop then shot at the car.

It was reckless to shoot in a parking lot with a passenger in the car.  But the driver is also a piece of crap and an idiot.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 14, 2022, 03:04:37 pm
He fled the cops twice apparently

Link?

Quote
You think this is what happened?

I rewatched the footage and yeah you're right. He just yanked open the door and demanded the kid get out without identifying himself as police or anything like that.

Quote
The cop opened the door, told him to get out of the car (there's no way he couldn't see his uniform with the car door fully open) then the guy started to change gears into reverse, so then the cop tried to grab the guy out of the car with 2 free hands (no gun) before he was able to escape.  When the guy was free and driving away the cop then shot at the car.

It was reckless to shoot in a parking lot with a passenger in the car.  But the driver is also a piece of crap and an idiot.

That's not really what happened either.

Anyway you consistently treat cops like wild animals who are only capable of reacting to stimulus, which is actually a good argument for giving them less money and power.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 14, 2022, 10:30:43 pm
Anyway you consistently treat cops like wild animals who are only capable of reacting to stimulus, which is actually a good argument for giving them less money and power.

Well no, cops should follow procedure, and when they don't they should be help accountable.  Just like citizens should follow the law and when they don't be held accountable.

If this cop didn't, as the chief claims, then yeah punish him.  But my point is the narrative that "omg innocent kid eating burger shot by cop" is not the whole story.  What kind of idiot runs from a cop....twice? (according to the cop as he claims in the video).

Still applies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 17, 2022, 04:57:01 pm
Well no, cops should follow procedure, and when they don't they should be help accountable.  Just like citizens should follow the law and when they don't be held accountable.

If this cop didn't, as the chief claims, then yeah punish him. But my point is the narrative that "omg innocent kid eating burger shot by cop" is not the whole story.  What kind of idiot runs from a cop....twice? (according to the cop as he claims in the video).

That's the third or fourth time you've said this kid ran from the cop before without any evidence. The cop claimed the car was stolen. It wasn't.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 17, 2022, 06:21:04 pm
That's the third or fourth time you've said this kid ran from the cop before without any evidence. The cop claimed the car was stolen. It wasn't.

Cop sees same or similar car that he says ran from him before.  Then goes up to him and he immediately runs.  Sounds like pretty good odds it was the same guy lol.  I also never said this was a fact, i said "according to the cop's claims".

I also never said the car was stolen, the cop said he suspected the car might be stolen.

I can admit this cop acted rashly, apparently outside policy and the law.  Can you admit this kid is a dumbass?  If the cop wasn't so rash OR the kid wasn't so dumb the kid wouldn't have been shot.

I invite you to drive away from a cop when he's ordering you to get out of your car and see what happens.  I mean WTF did this kid think was going to happen?  If a cop is trying to detain you, whether lawful or unlawful, and you run it's probably going to end in some kind of violence.  Best way to fight a cop is with your mouth or in court.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 17, 2022, 07:16:16 pm
Cop sees same or similar car that he says ran from him before.  Then goes up to him and he immediately runs.  Sounds like pretty good odds it was the same guy lol.  I also never said this was a fact, i said "according to the cop's claims".

They try to frame it as "innocent person just eating hamburger gets shot by cops".  They conveniently ignore that he ran from the cop on 2 occasions including right before the shooting, which is why the cop shot at him.

He fled the cops, twice apparently.

But my point is the narrative that "omg innocent kid eating burger shot by cop" is not the whole story.  What kind of idiot runs from a cop....twice? (according to the cop as he claims in the video).

Took you three times to qualify it and anyway, why would you believe the idiot cop in this instance?

Quote
I can admit this cop acted rashly, apparently outside policy and the law.  Can you admit this kid is a dumbass?  If the cop wasn't so rash OR the kid wasn't so dumb the kid wouldn't have been shot.

I invite you to drive away from a cop when he's ordering you to get out of your car and see what happens.  I mean WTF did this kid think was going to happen?  If a cop is trying to detain you, whether lawful or unlawful, and you run it's probably going to end in some kind of violence.  Best way to fight a cop is with your mouth or in court.

You assume the kid knew the guy was a cop when he didn't identify himself, it was nighttime, whatever.

And regardless, I don't think the punishment for trying to get away from a cop should be summary execution. Also, why are you holding agents of the state with a monopoly on violence to the same standard as a dumbass 17 year old?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 17, 2022, 08:54:02 pm
The officer was immediately fired and has been charged.

Funny no one has mentioned that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 17, 2022, 09:46:39 pm
Took you three times to qualify it and anyway, why would you believe the idiot cop in this instance?

Actually, I qualified the last 3 times.

Quote
You assume the kid knew the guy was a cop when he didn't identify himself, it was nighttime, whatever.

You assume he didn't know a guy in a cop uniform was a cop?  The kid is dumb but probably not that dumb.  In your world everyone is apparently an innocent victim in a police encounter.

The kid was charged with evading detention and assault on an officer.  The plates on the car didn't belong to that car, but the car wasn't stolen.

Quote
And regardless, I don't think the punishment for trying to get away from a cop should be summary execution. Also, why are you holding agents of the state with a monopoly on violence to the same standard as a dumbass 17 year old?

I have no idea what the proper procedure is in this situation once he starts fleeing.  What do you think it is?  Options:

-Get back in his car and chase him?  Then you're also risking the lives of others in a vehicle chase, and the cop was on foot so the car likely would have got away.

-Make sure to get the plates on video before car is approached, then arrive at their house  (wouldn't work with a stolen vehicle).

-Shoot at the driver (danger to driver, passenger, and bystanders, plus cop could also get shot at if driver/passenger has a gun).

-Do nothing, let him get away, file a police report. This option means anyone (if they're in a stolen vehicle) can just drive away from any cop if approached.

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is, they all have negatives.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 17, 2022, 10:51:14 pm
The officer was immediately fired and has been charged.

Funny no one has mentioned that.

Except me in the post introducing this story to the thread.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 17, 2022, 11:03:45 pm
Except me in the post introducing this story to the thread.

Where did you mention he was charged with two counts of aggravated assault?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 18, 2022, 07:44:05 am
Better late than never lol:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sick-of-break-ins-and-assaults-bcers-vote-for-tough-on-crime-mayors
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 09:59:46 am
Where did you mention he was charged with two counts of aggravated assault?

When I posted the article  (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/defund-the-police/?message=96407)which had that detail, I said he was arrested and fired. Sorry for not detailing his entire rap sheet.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 10:05:59 am
Actually, I qualified the last 3 times.

You assume he didn't know a guy in a cop uniform was a cop?  The kid is dumb but probably not that dumb.  In your world everyone is apparently an innocent victim in a police encounter.

I dunno, I don't know what the lighting conditions were like, the kid's state of mind or anything like that. i do know that there's a reason police are supposed to announce that they are police before trying to detain someone.

Quote
The kid was charged with evading detention and assault on an officer.  The plates on the car didn't belong to that car, but the car wasn't stolen.

And those charges were quickly dropped.

Quote
I have no idea what the proper procedure is in this situation once he starts fleeing.  What do you think it is?  Options:

-Get back in his car and chase him?  Then you're also risking the lives of others in a vehicle chase, and the cop was on foot so the car likely would have got away.

-Make sure to get the plates on video before car is approached, then arrive at their house  (wouldn't work with a stolen vehicle).

-Shoot at the driver (danger to driver, passenger, and bystanders, plus cop could also get shot at if driver/passenger has a gun).

-Do nothing, let him get away, file a police report. This option means anyone (if they're in a stolen vehicle) can just drive away from any cop if approached.

I'm not sure what the ideal solution is, they all have negatives.

I'm not sure. IDK why he could n't have called for back up or use his vehicle to block the other car. I think what happened was, he thought the car was the one that got away from him before, his ego was bruised so he decided to be a tough guy instead of  being smart.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 10:10:56 am
Better late than never lol:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sick-of-break-ins-and-assaults-bcers-vote-for-tough-on-crime-mayors

VPD's budget increased from $317 million in 2019 to $367 million in 2022 and represents 21 percent of the overall city budget. Weird how with all of that money that they can't keep a lid on crime.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 18, 2022, 10:15:32 am
When I posted the article  (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/defund-the-police/?message=96407)which had that detail, I said he was arrested and fired. Sorry for not detailing his entire rap sheet.

He was charged six days ago.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 18, 2022, 10:21:24 am
VPD's budget increased from $317 million in 2019 to $367 million in 2022 and represents 21 percent of the overall city budget. Weird how with all of that money that they can't keep a lid on crime.

How do they keep a lid on it when courts release violent offenders on the same day. When they breach conditions, courts just remove the conditions. Familiarize yourself with
Bill C-75.

Quote
The Court emphasized a number of key principles and guidelines to apply in a contested bail hearing, including that releasing the accused without conditions should be the default position when granting release and that “release is favoured at the earliest reasonable opportunity on the least onerous grounds.”

The police are doing their job, it is the rest of the system that is failing the public.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 10:41:18 am
He was charged six days ago.

And I posted the article, which included that detail, five days ago. What are you trying to prove here?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 10:43:01 am
How do they keep a lid on it when courts release violent offenders on the same day. When they breach conditions, courts just remove the conditions. Familiarize yourself with
Bill C-75.

The police are doing their job, it is the rest of the system that is failing the public.

So adding more cops and increasing police budgets won't do anything to fix the problem, thank you for agreeing with me.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 18, 2022, 11:08:09 am
So adding more cops and increasing police budgets won't do anything to fix the problem, thank you for agreeing with me.

Well then, maybe you should reserve some of your anger for the parts of the system that are failing instead of blaming police for everything.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 12:20:07 pm
Well then, maybe you should reserve some of your anger for the parts of the system that are failing instead of blaming police for everything.

I don't blame the police for everything I also blame the politicians who keep writing the cops blank cheques.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 18, 2022, 05:04:40 pm
I don't blame the police for everything I also blame the politicians who keep writing the cops blank cheques.

How well funded are cops in Canada?  I don't think we have over- funding problems.  They can't even get rid of parked truckers apparently.  I wish there were more cops in my community because there's a lot of piece of crap people doing a lot of bad things in my neighborhood.  A lot of Canadian cities don't even have their cops wearing bodycams, which is a disgrace.

I think most policing abuse problems ultimately come from city council or the gov level in charge of the police, who fail to keep them accountable.  There will always be bad seeds but they need to discovered and punished/fired before they can do a lot of harm.  That's on the government, they hire the police chiefs and make the laws.  They just don't care enough I wager.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on October 18, 2022, 05:08:43 pm
I don't blame the police for everything I also blame the politicians who keep writing the cops blank cheques.

Ya, you do. That's why 80% of the posts on this topic are yours.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9207826/repeat-vancouver-offender-mohammed-majidpour-arrested-again/

This is the norm these days.

Also

https://globalnews.ca/news/9207858/burnaby-rcmp-officer-killed-stabbing-homeless-camp/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 05:15:37 pm
Ya, you do. That's why 80% of the posts on this topic are yours.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9207826/repeat-vancouver-offender-mohammed-majidpour-arrested-again/

This is the norm these days.

Also

https://globalnews.ca/news/9207858/burnaby-rcmp-officer-killed-stabbing-homeless-camp/

Again: how does giving police more money solve any of these issues?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 18, 2022, 05:47:09 pm
How well funded are cops in Canada? 
In Winnipeg, they are at nearly 27% of the total city budget and rising. And if you look at public accounts, even shmuck constables get six figures with a sweet pension, which in Winnipeg is still a lot of money.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 18, 2022, 07:28:29 pm
Police unions have nothing to do with the labour movement.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 18, 2022, 07:41:41 pm
Again: how does giving police more money solve any of these issues?

This seems like a strawman or red herring.  I don't think he's saying BC crime is caused by lack of police funding.  Defunding police budgets also won't solve the issue.

The issue is ideology of certain people in positions of power within the governments in BC (judges, lawmakers etc).  They treat perps as victims, which allows them to break more laws and victimize more people.  Some may be victims of something at some point and have some sad story in their life, but being a victim isn't a license to break the law and victimize others.

The cities of the pacific west coast are filled with do-gooder hippie dope-smokers, and some get into government and their ideas don't often work.  The hippies raise their kids free-range, the kids grow up directionless with no boundaries and get their kicks trashing stuff and getting high, and when the cops catch them the courts give them a hug and put them back on the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkKwyjsJGxk
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 18, 2022, 07:48:11 pm
In Winnipeg, they are at nearly 27% of the total city budget and rising. And if you look at public accounts, even shmuck constables get six figures with a sweet pension, which in Winnipeg is still a lot of money.

I have no idea what % police budget should be, but yes probably related to unions (i'm not anti-union).  Teachers in my parts also get 6 figures and a sweet pension.

I just don't see police budgets as part of the problem.  At least not in Canada.  I see a lot of accountability issues everywhere, and the "protect our own" mindset, which is unfortunately a widespread problem in orgs that serve the public.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 07:48:31 pm
This seems like a strawman or red herring.  I don't think he's saying BC crime is caused by lack of police funding.

No but he hollers pretty hard when you suggest they are getting too much money for what they do.

Why is it that for the past 40 years every other public service has been expected to do more with less but for some reason the chequebook is always open for police?

Quote
Defunding police budgets also won't solve the issue.

Giving that money to mental health supports, housing, addiction treatment and recovery etc would.

Quote
The issue is ideology of certain people in positions of power within the governments in BC (judges, lawmakers etc).  They treat perps as victims, which allows them to break more laws and victimize more people.  Some may be victims of something at some point and have some sad story in their life, but being a victim isn't a license to break the law and victimize others.

The cities of the pacific west coast are filled with do-gooder hippie dope-smokers, and some get into government and their ideas don't often work.  The hippies raise their kids free-range, the kids grow up directionless with no boundaries and get their kicks trashing stuff and getting high, and when the cops catch them the courts give them a hug and put them back on the street.

This is absurd. These problems aren'r restricted to the west coast, not are they unique to "liberal" cities. If you want to pint the finger, point it at conservative austerity policies.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 18, 2022, 07:49:56 pm
I have no idea what % police budget should be, but yes probably related to unions (i'm not anti-union).  Teachers in my parts also get 6 figures and a sweet pension.

I just don't see police budgets as part of the problem.  At least not in Canada.  I see a lot of accountability issues everywhere, and the "protect our own" mindset, which is unfortunately a widespread problem in orgs that serve the public.

Well police seem particularly resistant to accountability, whether that's aimed at individual members or at the idea that they should be accountable to taxpayers.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 18, 2022, 08:04:13 pm
Why is it that for the past 40 years every other public service has been expected to do more with less but for some reason the chequebook is always open for police?

I honestly don't know much about police budgets.  However, I do know that when I emailed my city counselors after George Floyd happened and requested they equip police with bodycams they responded by saying there's a committee studying it, which was probably code for "nah".

Quote
Giving that money to mental health supports, housing, addiction treatment and recovery etc would.

I'm not against any of this.  But I also know police should be adequately funded because cities are filled with dirtbags, so paying for these supports by taking money from police budgets is a pretty blanket recommendation with no nuance.  If a dept is overfunded and buying tanks & overpaying people ok sure.  I think it's ok to acknowledge the role of policing is vital but also acknowledge their failures & demand change/accountability.

Quote
This is absurd. These problems aren'r restricted to the west coast, not are they unique to "liberal" cities. If you want to pint the finger, point it at conservative austerity policies.

I was talking about this:  https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/sick-of-break-ins-and-assaults-bcers-vote-for-tough-on-crime-mayors
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 18, 2022, 08:14:29 pm
I have no idea what % police budget should be, but yes probably related to unions (i'm not anti-union).  Teachers in my parts also get 6 figures and a sweet pension.

I just don't see police budgets as part of the problem.  At least not in Canada.  I see a lot of accountability issues x

The average teacher salary in Vancouver is $67k; the average police officer salary is $102.6k.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/vancouver-teacher-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM972_KO10,17.htm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/vancouver-police-officer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM972_KO10,24.htm%23:~:text%3DThe%2520average%2520salary%2520for%2520a,does%2520%2524102%252C673%2520look%2520to%2520you%253F&ved=2ahUKEwjUrKLNjuv6AhWOADQIHUf7BXIQFnoECAsQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3lodjqE3wZ0ip8bbmA2Xmv


I'm not sure what you're getting at though. You say you have no idea what police budgets should be, but if they are too high it's probably the union's fault, but you don't think they're too high---at least not in Canada---but you don't know anything about police budgets. But teachers on average make a little more than half what cops do, so maybe we should worry about them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 21, 2022, 12:56:47 am
The average teacher salary in Vancouver is $67k; the average police officer salary is $102.6k.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/vancouver-teacher-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM972_KO10,17.htm

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/vancouver-police-officer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,9_IM972_KO10,24.htm%23:~:text%3DThe%2520average%2520salary%2520for%2520a,does%2520%2524102%252C673%2520look%2520to%2520you%253F&ved=2ahUKEwjUrKLNjuv6AhWOADQIHUf7BXIQFnoECAsQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3lodjqE3wZ0ip8bbmA2Xmv

I'm not sure what you're getting at though. You say you have no idea what police budgets should be, but if they are too high it's probably the union's fault, but you don't think they're too high---at least not in Canada---but you don't know anything about police budgets. But teachers on average make a little more than half what cops do, so maybe we should worry about them.

That's not what I said at all.  Either your reading comprehension is poor or you're doing a strawman dance to prove some point that I never made.

First, I never said teacher salaries are a problem, what an odd comment.  I said public unions drive up salaries and help public employees get good pensions.  I also never said that police budgets weren't too high in Canada, I said that I don't think that budgets are contributing to problems in Canada.  I said that accountability is the main problem, not budgets.  And sure, cities can hire more people like social workers/psychologists to deal with some more minor policing problems, this will help some problems.  But it doesn't fully address problems of police abusing their authority.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 21, 2022, 12:58:12 am
This should help solve our problems:  https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/19/toronto-police-officers-shot-at-scarborough-violence-constable-andrew-hong/
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 21, 2022, 09:56:58 am
This should help solve our problems:  https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/19/toronto-police-officers-shot-at-scarborough-violence-constable-andrew-hong/

I'm unclear what this has to do with the subject of defunding the police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 31, 2022, 08:17:56 am
Off-duty cop parked in a crosswalk freaks out on a 14-year-old girl because he thinks she touched his car.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/off-duty-wps-officer-shaftesbury-student-1.6634043?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 31, 2022, 10:42:13 am
Off-duty cop parked in a crosswalk freaks out on a 14-year-old girl because he thinks she touched his car.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/off-duty-wps-officer-shaftesbury-student-1.6634043?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Quote
But they say they were baffled when an officer from the professional standards unit said an apology by the police was off the table.

"Policemen don't apologize," the dad says he was told by the standards unit officer.

Reminds me of this one  (https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/xv1xay/ottawa_police_officer_driving_in_the_bike_lane_up/)from Ottawa. Cop sees a closed road, decides to drive up the bike lane because he was in a hurry to get home for lunch.

Even more than the stories of violent abuse, it's these types of things that make average people dislike cops. The arrogance, entitlement and the high-handedness that comes through in the most routine interactions, even those not involving the execution of their duties gives you a real insight into Cop Brain.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 31, 2022, 12:56:56 pm
I'm unclear what this has to do with the subject of defunding the police.

Oh yeah I forgot, this is the thread where we only crap on the cops.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 31, 2022, 01:26:26 pm
Oh yeah I forgot, this is the thread where we only crap on the cops.

Again: what does that article have to do with the subject of defunding the police, pro or con?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 31, 2022, 02:32:11 pm
I have a new slogan to delete the dumb "defund the police" meme:

"Police Accountability Now!"
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 31, 2022, 03:22:32 pm
I have a new slogan to delete the dumb "defund the police" meme:

"Police Accountability Now!"

A perfect centrist slogan in that it means anything and nothing at the same time.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 31, 2022, 03:38:23 pm
A perfect centrist slogan in that it means anything and nothing at the same time.

You mean like "defund the police"?  BAHAHAAHA.

My slogan means we demand police accountability...NOW!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 31, 2022, 04:21:21 pm
You mean like "defund the police"?  BAHAHAAHA.

My slogan means we demand police accountability...NOW!

What do you mean by "accountability"?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 31, 2022, 05:21:28 pm
What do you mean by "accountability"?

Cops held accountable for abusing power & breaking the law, ie: getting fired, suspended w/o pay, and/or sued.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on October 31, 2022, 05:32:13 pm
Cops held accountable for abusing power & breaking the law, ie: getting fired, suspended w/o pay, and/or sued.

Punishing individual police doesn't change anything about policing's role in society tho
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 31, 2022, 06:05:49 pm
Punishing individual police doesn't change anything about policing's role in society tho

Police chiefs should be accountable too.  If they allow unlawful behaviour they get fired.

Also, a lot of police departments in Canada don't even use bodycams.  Lack of accountability and transparency.

In terms of their role in society, it should be to enforce the law, warn/fine/arrest lawbreakers, and investigate crimes in order to do such.

For those with mental health issues, disabilities, or having domestic issues there's a role for other professions to help who aren't carrying guns.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 01, 2022, 12:25:05 pm
Police chiefs should be accountable too.  If they allow unlawful behaviour they get fired.

Also, a lot of police departments in Canada don't even use bodycams.  Lack of accountability and transparency.

In terms of their role in society, it should be to enforce the law, warn/fine/arrest lawbreakers, and investigate crimes in order to do such.


But that i snot what it actually is.

Quote
For those with mental health issues, disabilities, or having domestic issues there's a role for other professions to help who aren't carrying guns.

And the point of "defund" is that those types of resources are grossly underfunded in no small part due to the tremendous amount of resources that get funnelled into police. Underfunded mental health (for example) services means police are the go-to for handling people having public mental health crises which means more demand for police, which means more money to police and less money for mental health services. At some point the cycle needs to break.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 01, 2022, 04:52:30 pm
But that i snot what it actually is.

And the point of "defund" is that those types of resources are grossly underfunded in no small part due to the tremendous amount of resources that get funnelled into police. Underfunded mental health (for example) services means police are the go-to for handling people having public mental health crises which means more demand for police, which means more money to police and less money for mental health services. At some point the cycle needs to break.

Sometimes you need police or someone else who can use force to respond to mental health crisis because people can be out of control, hurting other people, destroying property etc.  You don't send a cop to someone's house if they are depressed.  You might send them if they're feeling suicidal because you might have to break down a door.

Now I agree they aren't quite trained for mental health crisis most likely.  So you'd need to either train cops for it, or train mental health counselor to be able to break down doors or stop a person from hurting other people, destroying property etc.

The "defund the police" slogan is stupid.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 01, 2022, 05:07:06 pm
Sometimes you need police or someone else who can use force to respond to mental health crisis because people can be out of control, hurting other people, destroying property etc.  You don't send a cop to someone's house if they are depressed.  You might send them if they're feeling suicidal because you might have to break down a door.

Now I agree they aren't quite trained for mental health crisis most likely.  So you'd need to either train cops for it, or train mental health counselor to be able to break down doors or stop a person from hurting other people, destroying property etc.

The "defund the police" slogan is stupid.

It's only stupid if you don't understand it, which this scenario you lay out seems to suggest. One of the interesting things about a lot of the "oh yeah who are you gonna call when X happens?" arguments against defunding the police like this one is they they betray the fact that policing is fundamentally reactive and they treat things like mental health crises or poverty as inevitable. The fact that it may be possible to deal with the root causes of these things doesn't seem to enter into it, whereas that is a fundamental component of the defund argument ie if you give money that is going to buy cops tanks to social services, to mental health services, to communities, then the problems you say we need police to deal with will be significantly reduced.

That's not to say there aren't instances (such as someone threatening harm to themselves or others) where you would need police intervention, but in those cases, there should be also be professionals on the scene who are equipped to handle the mental health angle so you don't end up with something like this (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mona-wang-lacy-browning-kelowna-rcmp-wellness-check-assault-charge-1.6150736) happening.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 01, 2022, 08:17:09 pm
It's only stupid if you don't understand it, which this scenario you lay out seems to suggest. One of the interesting things about a lot of the "oh yeah who are you gonna call when X happens?" arguments against defunding the police like this one is they they betray the fact that policing is fundamentally reactive and they treat things like mental health crises or poverty as inevitable. The fact that it may be possible to deal with the root causes of these things doesn't seem to enter into it, whereas that is a fundamental component of the defund argument ie if you give money that is going to buy cops tanks to social services, to mental health services, to communities, then the problems you say we need police to deal with will be significantly reduced.

That's not to say there aren't instances (such as someone threatening harm to themselves or others) where you would need police intervention, but in those cases, there should be also be professionals on the scene who are equipped to handle the mental health angle so you don't end up with something like this (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mona-wang-lacy-browning-kelowna-rcmp-wellness-check-assault-charge-1.6150736) happening.

It's a dumb slogan if every time someone says it someone else misinterprets it and then someone needs to explain "what it really mean".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 01, 2022, 09:22:51 pm
It's a dumb slogan if every time someone says it someone else misinterprets it and then someone needs to explain "what it really mean".

If you’re expecting a three word slogan to be a detailed policy proposal and not a provocative conversation starter, that’s a you problem.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 02, 2022, 05:39:11 pm
If you’re expecting a three word slogan to be a detailed policy proposal and not a provocative conversation starter, that’s a you problem.

I'm expecting it to make some sense.  "Black Lives Matter" makes sense.  Some stupid white people misinterepreted this as "black lives matter more", but it actually meant "black lives matter too".  So maybe a better slogan would be "Black Lives Matter Too".

And then there was the whole "Check your privilege" debacle.  So I think the left needs to get better at slogans.

The right has "Lock Her Up" and "Facts don't care about your feelings", which at least make sense.

We used to live in a world when the mainstream left wasn't completely stupid, the only stupid left were the radical loopy ones like the ultra-vegans or nouveau hippies who lived in vans that used used restaurant kitchen grease as fuel.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 02, 2022, 07:15:17 pm
I'm expecting it to make some sense.  "Black Lives Matter" makes sense.  Some stupid white people misinterepreted this as "black lives matter more", but it actually meant "black lives matter too".  So maybe a better slogan would be "Black Lives Matter Too".

So that's another example of a slogan that requires additional explanation, then.

Quote
And then there was the whole "Check your privilege" debacle.  So I think the left needs to get better at slogans.

The right has "Lock Her Up" and "Facts don't care about your feelings", which at least make sense.

Those aren't political slogans in the sense of connecting to policy or anything. like, no one is chanting "check your privilege" at a march, c'mon.

Quote
We used to live in a world when the mainstream left wasn't completely stupid, the only stupid left were the radical loopy ones like the ultra-vegans or nouveau hippies who lived in vans that used used restaurant kitchen grease as fuel.

Again, you're expecting a three word slogan to explain a detailed policy when it's actually meant as a conversation starter. But I also don't think "defund the police" is all that challenging a concept, since everything else that people who espouse it want flows from that starting point. Again, this is a you problem.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Bubbermiley on November 07, 2022, 06:07:08 am
If stuff like this can happen with bodycams, imagine what goes on without them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/ynzkig/policing_in_america_a_legally_blind_man_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 07, 2022, 11:49:57 am
If stuff like this can happen with bodycams, imagine what goes on without them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/ynzkig/policing_in_america_a_legally_blind_man_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Exactly right. Lots of cities in Canada have cops without body cams.  How lovely.

I hope these cops aka tyrants enjoy being sued and fired.   The blind guy is a champ, he knew all his rights and did and said all the right things and didn't resist arrest.  He's alive and will make a lot of money.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on November 07, 2022, 12:12:04 pm
Exactly right. Lots of cities in Canada have cops without body cams.  How lovely.

I hope these cops aka tyrants enjoy being sued and fired.   The blind guy is a champ, he knew all his rights and did and said all the right things and didn't resist arrest.  He's alive and will make a lot of money.
Most police departments and unions, including the RCMP's union are in favour of body cameras. Take it up with your politicians.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 07, 2022, 12:14:11 pm
Most police departments and unions, including the RCMP's union are in favour of body cameras. Take it up with your politicians.

Yes it's the fault of the politicians who are cheap.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 07, 2022, 12:15:05 pm
I like you Wilbur, but don't become a boot-licker.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on November 08, 2022, 07:18:36 am
I like you Wilbur, but don't become a boot-licker.
Then maybe you should get your facts straight.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 08, 2022, 11:08:31 am
Exactly right. Lots of cities in Canada have cops without body cams.  How lovely.

I hope these cops aka tyrants enjoy being sued and fired.   The blind guy is a champ, he knew all his rights and did and said all the right things and didn't resist arrest.  He's alive and will make a lot of money.

Turns out the sergeant involved in this incident with the blind guy had previously been a K9 handler but was disciplined after leaving his dog to die in a hot car. (https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/2010/07/14/officer-suspended-after-police-dog-dies-in-hot-car/28954828007/)

If you can do that and keep your job with just a slap on the wrist, no chance he faces any real consequences from this. Even if these hogs get sured, it's the taxpayer that foots the bill.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 08, 2022, 12:43:29 pm
To serve and protect!

Quote
Full of life and smiles — that’s how 48-year-old Kenneth Vinyard is being remembered.

“He was such a kind and good man as evidenced as he was acting as a good Samaritan,” Attorney Joel Sansone said.

His family’s attorney is bringing light to his death, which happened in the parking lot of the Walmart in Monaca Sunday night.

Sansone said Vinyard was helping a man who was shot right by his car while he was waiting for his fiance to come out of Walmart.

“An unidentified man insisted he step away and violently pushed Mr. Vinyard to the ground where he struck his head on the pavement. His fiancé began to render aid to Mr. Vinyard including chest compressions because he had no pulse,” Sansone said.

That’s when Sansone said the man identified himself to the fiance as a police officer with Center Township. Just a few hours later, Vinyard died from his injuries.

link (https://www.wpxi.com/news/local/state-police-investigating-death-shooting-scene-outside-beaver-county-walmart/FLMKEADFPVEHXNCZATPGQ4MGXM/)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 14, 2022, 11:08:05 am
Betting this gets deleted, but a rare moment of honesty here (https://twitter.com/ABQPoliceChief/status/1590465609418297344?s=20&t=22RXWTV8Z1ryDEEUwDvA8Q) from a high ranking cop suggesting they lied about crime before the election but now that it's over they want you to know what a great job they are doing.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 14, 2022, 04:54:26 pm
Betting this gets deleted, but a rare moment of honesty here (https://twitter.com/ABQPoliceChief/status/1590465609418297344?s=20&t=22RXWTV8Z1ryDEEUwDvA8Q) from a high ranking cop suggesting they lied about crime before the election but now that it's over they want you to know what a great job they are doing.

Not quite….  They just withheld the information that would have corrected the lies that the Republicans were spewing. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on November 14, 2022, 04:57:56 pm
Not quite….  They just withheld the information that would have corrected the lies that the Republicans were spewing.

A lie of omission is still a lie!