Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 02:49:43 pm


Title: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 02:49:43 pm
New thread for discussion of abolton vs reform.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 11, 2021, 04:06:16 pm
That's a feature of policing not a bug.

You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: MH on January 11, 2021, 04:19:06 pm
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

I'm a fan of building things.  But also tearing down things that have no use after the new thing is built.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 11, 2021, 04:20:32 pm
You're saying it can't change?  That's nonsense.  You simply have to build a system that doesn't tolerate it.

You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 06:50:50 pm
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
"Defund the police".

Having more cops that can actually help society instead of harm is a good thing.  Unfortunately a lot of cops are under-educated a-holes who are unaccountable.
Here is the problem...

Improved training and standards of conduct are not a bad thing. But, in my opinion, the type of skills needed by a policeman differ from those of (lets say) a mental health professional that I don't think its relevant to expect that simply improving police training would allow them to handle things as well as other specialists. So, by all means, make sure police are better trained. Make sure they have better standards of conduct. But instead of keeping 100 cops on the force, society might be better to cut it down to 90, and then hire 10 psychologists/outreach coordinators/etc. Cops can concentrate on what they're best at, and leave stuff that they're not good at to other people.
 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 06:59:57 pm
(copied from the other thread)
Quote
Except you can't do any of those reforms until you actually defund or abolish the police as we know it.
At this point we're probably going to start splitting hairs when you talk about how you "abolish the police".

Fire everyone, and start hiring an all new force from scratch? Then you have a significant time period when you have no police protection for a few months/years while the new hires get up to scratch.

I have heard of cities that have "technically" fired their police forces, but created a brand new force at the same time, just transferring officers over to the new force (except for possibly the bad ones), but then you're not actually "abolishing" the police.

In my opinion, instead of worrying about defunding/abolishing the police, they simply need to get rid of police unions (or curtail their activities so that they concentrate on employment rights). The problem is that the unions have gotten so powerful that they can influence policy, which allows abuses to continue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:10:34 pm
You can't do that until you dismantle the existing system. And yes part of that is reallocating responsibilities for things currently handled by police to different bodies, but part of it is also reassessing the actual role of police. Because most of the stuff cops do isn't fighting crime or preserving public safety in any meaningful way, but protecting property and preserving social hierarchies and they can't do that without the tacit approval to commit violence against citizens.

You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 11, 2021, 08:27:12 pm
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:43:58 pm
I'll never forget the ride along my daughter and a couple of her friends were taken on by police as part of their 'punishment' for getting caught drinking.  As the cop took them through the local trailer park he told the girls to roll down the windows.  He said he wanted them to know how easy it was to sniff out pot use and keep an eye on the community.  By all accounts my daughter never skipped a beat and asked why they couldn't do the same thing up on Belvedere Heights where the pot smelled better.

Maybe you should go too.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 11, 2021, 08:52:07 pm
Maybe you should go too.
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 08:54:27 pm
Why, I didn't get caught doing anything.

Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 09:19:06 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 09:26:07 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

All in the US.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 11, 2021, 09:44:55 pm
Quote
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.
All in the US.
Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:25:41 pm
Should anyone have half an hour, I would recommend you watch the following episode of Last Week Tonight, with John Oliver.

It covers the type of things we were talking about... "defund the police", the reliance of police on "combat training", police unions, qualified immunity (another huge problem that we should have brought up earlier).

I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:28:34 pm
All in the US.

Yes, its an american show.

But, Canada does have similar issues (although not always to the same degree). We have qualified immunity. We do have a similar lack of health care professionals and other specialists to assist police. And racism does exist.

Not to mention the same "Blue code of silence" mentality. We learned during the Braidwood Inquiry how far the RCMP were willing to go to protect their own. We have the same problem with it being very hard to remove problem officers.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 11, 2021, 10:58:51 pm
New thread for discussion of abolton vs reform.

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 11, 2021, 10:59:30 pm
I thought that John Oliver video was excellent and informative.  I have to point out the part where he talks about the slogan "Defund The Police" and talks about Tucker Carlson misrepresenting it and scaremongering with the idea that people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  I mean, no **** people find "Defund The Police" alarming.  Of course people assume it means people are talking about eliminating the police entirely.  It's a terrible slogan that invites people to assume you're talking about eliminating the police.  Obviously people were alarmed. Obviously it made people hesitant about what was being advocated for.  If you have to choose a bumper-sticker length sound-bite to sum up your plan, you should try to pick a sound-bite that doesn't make average people think you're a wing-nut.

 -k

The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 11, 2021, 11:15:03 pm
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

Black Lives Matter is another one because it gets the All Lives Matter response. Black Lives Also Matter is the real point.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 10:01:03 am
The only ones actually wanting to defund police are libertarians.
I don't even think that's true.

Libertarians are not anarchists... Libertarians still believe in having some government services, and a basic police force is one of those things. (They may want more limits put on what the cops can do, but they don't want to eliminate them all together.)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 10:06:23 am
It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.
To me, "Refund the police" sounds a bit... confusing. Sounds like you sold something to the cops, but they want their money back.

In another thread, I suggested "Demilitarize the Police" as an alternative. It is far less catchy than "Defund the Police", but I think it better captures what exactly the protesters are trying to do.

And even better, it would be less scary to certain people. Even the most nervous white suburbanite who might worry that "Defund the police means the cops won't be there if I get robbed" will probably agree that "I want my cops to act like police, not like soldiers".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 10:29:25 am
You really don't know much about what police do. You should ask for a ride along with your local police force and find out.

I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Is anybody really advocating for abolition?

 -k

Yes.

It's one of those unfortunate slogans which polarize people. Refund the Police would have been much less antagonistic as well as more accurate.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 12:05:15 pm
I've done ride alongs when I worked as a journalist. They were boring for the most part except when two separate patrol cars converged to hassle some teens making out in a car in a field and stopped to pick up a white drunk kid and take him home (a trip that probably would have had a different outcome if the kid was Black or Indigenous).

But you keep saying "oh you don't know what police do" so why don't you enlighten us?

Yes.

No, we mean defund the police.

I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of the street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 12:20:36 pm
I did one on a warm Friday night. It was few years ago so I don't remember all of it but I do remember two drug deals gone wrong, one involving a knife, hunting for a missing kid found by another car, one domestic dispute resulting in the man going to jail, one incident of chasing down a person who was seen waving a gun out of the window of a car. That was between 8 PM and 2 AM. At that point things had died down enough that the officer I was with could start to enter the notes he had taken during the evening into his computer. so I went home even though the shift didn't end until 7 AM.

Full disclosure:

My son is a 15 year veteran of our local police force. As far as being an uneducated thug, he was an honours student,  and voted top athlete in high school. Before he became a cop he took two years of criminology and psychology at university and spent four years as a victim services volunteer. Three out of the five officers on his course had degrees. He has been a patrol officer, including bicycle squad, ERT and is now on the drug squad. He spent years on patrol in the city centre and knows many of he street people by name. Last summer when we met him and his two little daughters at a downtown park for ice cream, a couple of them came up to say hi.

I know two officers who have committed suicide, one of them was the best friend of our next door neighbour who mentored him to become a police officer and became a good friend of ours, so yes, I do worry about the impact the job might have on his mental health.

With all due respect, you are full of ****.

I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 12:26:45 pm
Quote
Is anybody really advocating for abolition?
Yes.
...
I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 12:31:32 pm
I'm sorry what's the point of all this and what does it prove, exactly? That not all cops are bad? Because that's not rally relevant.

You asked, I told you.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 01:29:38 pm
You asked, I told you.

No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 01:38:21 pm
Do you honestly think society would be better off if there were absolutely no police? No beat cops, no detectives. Nobody at all to investigate murders or sexual assaults. Nobody to respond to on-going robberies?

First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 01:53:07 pm
No, no you didn't. You gave a couple of anecdotes which aren't necessarily representative of anything.

Obviously your personal bias here means your unlikely to have a rational take on this issue.

Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:15:34 pm
Right back attacha good buddy. What do think you have been spouting?

I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:17:29 pm
NYPD Anti-Discrimination Chief Retires Before Suspension for ‘Vile, Racist' Messages (https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nypd-anti-discrimination-chief-suspended-without-pay-over-vile-racist-messages/2822729/)

Quote
The head of the NYPD's workplace discrimination office has opted to retire days after having been suspended without pay for 30 days after investigators say he posted hateful messages to a website where cops air grievances anonymously.

Deputy Inspector James Kobel was relieved of his command in early November after he was accused of penning attacks on Black and Jewish people, women, members of the LGBTQ community and others for more than a year using the pseudonym “Clouseau," a reference to the bumbling French detective in the “Pink Panther" films.
...
In messages posted on the website, “Clouseau" referred to Bronx District Attorney Darcel Clark as a “gap-tooth wildebeest,” ridiculed Public Advocate Jumaane Williams for having Tourette's syndrome, called former President Barack Obama a “Muslim savage” and Mayor Bill de Blasio’s son, Dante, a “brillohead.” All of them are Black.


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 02:39:24 pm
I dunno, I've included facts and statistics and could post more about how little cops actually do, but I wouldn't want your kid to look bad by association and hurt your feelings.

You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 02:42:36 pm
First off, defunding police goes hand in hand with a lot of other social reforms such as decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, and mental illness and putting resources into communities to address these problems. So right away the idea is to eliminate the conditions that create crime in the first place.
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

See: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=1
(These are American figures... tried to find the Canadian equivalent, but could not. But given the similarity in our laws, we probably would have similar numbers, although probably fewer drug arrests due to our legalization efforts.)
Quote
Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.
Quote
but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:47:46 pm
You did? Where? You also understand that cases that involve criminal charges require hours of paper work on the part of officers, dotting I's and crossing T's to make sure Crown will actually approve a charge and then it won't get thrown out later on some sort of technicality or misstep by the officer.

Oh ****, they have to do paperwork? Whoah that changes everything!

And for the record, the success of a prosecution or whether a charge sticks has nothing to do with clearance rates.

"The clearance rate represents the proportion of criminal incidents solved by the police. Police can clear an incident by charge or by means other than the laying of a charge. For an incident to be cleared by charge, at least one accused must have been identified and either a charge has been laid, or recommended to be laid, against this individual in connection with the incident."


Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 02:58:06 pm
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.). 

That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Quote
Which sounds a lot like having a police force, you're just giving it a different name.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

Quote
What about a 'cop on the street' which doesn't drive around hassling poor people, but still responds to things like "robberies in progress"? Or are you going to only go after crimes that have already occurred, without dealing with crimes that are in progress?

"Sorry you had all your stuff stolen. Our investigation showed that the burglars were in your house for 2 hours. We could have stopped them, but we don't do that sort of thing".

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 12, 2021, 03:04:37 pm
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:10:29 pm
There also needs to be more use of technology to help with patrolling traffic laws to greatly reduce the police presence needed and to get rid of the arbitrariness of traffic enforcement.

Red light cameras on EVERY stoplight in busy areas.  Photo radar, with warning signs so that people actually slow down.  The goal should be accident reduction, not fine generation. 

I think this would greatly free up cops to do other things, or be gotten rid of if they’re unnecessary.

Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 03:16:49 pm
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.

Call it what you will, the point is it wouldn't function the same way as our police currently do.

You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.

The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 03:21:30 pm
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.

I'm not a huge fan of photo radar for speed enforcement unless it restricted to high crash locations and the threshold is set fairly high.
Considering the number of crashes at intersections, I think red light cameras are a great idea. Anyone who enters an intersection on a red deserves a ticket.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 03:30:27 pm
Quote
I have no problem decriminalization prostitution, liberalizing drug laws, etc. And yes, that would greatly reduce the number of arrests.

But, even if you make those things completely legal, even if you eliminate all laws dealing with "victimless" crimes (prostitution, homelessness, drugs/alcohol), you have still only eliminated ~40% of all arrests. (That's a big chunk, and its certainly worth exploring, but its certainly not the majority. And that's being generous, because the statistics contain a large number of "other" crimes that i am lumping in here.) On the other hand, ~60% of all arrests were not victimless (this includes assault/murder, fraud in various forms, theft/robbery, etc.).
That's not true. Decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs, for example, means you're cutting down on violent crimes (assaults, robberies, murders) associated with the illicit drug trade.
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Quote
You do realize that's like the vast majority of policing now is just showing up after the fact.
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:32:30 pm
The police don't make the laws, the people you elect make them and then expect the police to enforce them.

You want it both ways, you want police out of your life and at the same time be pro active, Make up your mind.
The Charter places strict limits on how pro active police can be.

There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.

Quote
Some of it is also personnel. There is large rural area on the west side of our city the police call the Wild West. Not because it is any wilder than anywhere else, they just don't have the personnel to patrol it.

Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 03:39:54 pm
Are photo radar and red light cameras effective at reducing accidents? I'm not familiar with the literature on that.
I think the evidence shows that no, they are not.

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3861844/
For the 26 mile experimental camera containing segment of interstate...speed cameras did not statistically contribute to an increase or decrease in the number of MVC.

There are some people who think it might reduce the severity of actions (because cars are going slower).

And from: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/red-light-cameras-may-not-make-streets-safer/#:~:text=Evidence%20clearly%20shows%20that%20camera,contradictory%20effects%20on%20traffic%20safety.
...we examined all police-recorded traffic accidents for three large Texas cities over a 12-year period...We found no evidence that red light cameras improve public safety.
...
Evidence clearly shows that camera programs are effective at decreasing the number of vehicles running red lights....However, cameras can have contradictory effects on traffic safety....But the number of accidents from stopping at a red light – such as rear-end accidents – is likely to increase.


So, red light cameras decrease the number of 'T-bone' collisions, but that's offset by an increase in the number of rear-end collisions.
ETA: Of course, even if it doesn't make things safer, there still might be justification in using red-light cameras if it (for example) improves traffic flow.

Now, those are only 2 studies... there may be others that show a more positive effect, so I could be convinced otherwise with the right evidence.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 03:43:31 pm
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.

Do you know that for certain? Do you know what their life circumstances were to the point they committed their crimes?

Quote
Yes, the cops probably don't "catch them in the act" very often. But that doesn't necessarily mean that its a smart idea to totally give up the capacity to try such a rapid response.

And just out of curiosity, how exactly is your "get rid of cops and only investigate crimes after they're committed" supposed to work for things like impaired or dangerous driving? After all, if you don't catch them in the act, its rather difficult to build a case against them.

How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?

Again, the question that should be asked before asking "what would you do without the police?" is "what do we actually need the police for?"
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: segnosaur on January 12, 2021, 04:14:21 pm
Quote
Most drug arrests were for simple possession.

And, I should say, I have been the victim of both assault and robbery (separate incidents), as well as identity theft. In none of these cases were drugs an overriding factor in the crime. They were criminals who decided not to follow the general rules of society.
Do you know that for certain?
Do I know what for certain?

That most drug arrests for for simple possession? Pretty sure, yeah:

From: https://drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics
Number of arrests in 2018 in the U.S. for drug law violations: 1,654,282
Number of drug arrests that were for possession only: 1,429,299


That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash". The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal".

(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".
Quote
How do most cities enforce parking violations? Is there a reason that model wouldn't work for other traffic control issues?
Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket".

Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 04:15:27 pm
There's no contradiction between wanting fewer police interactions for **** like open container violations or jaywalking or sleeping on a park bench and ensuring someone is able to actually investigate violent crimes.



When have you had either?

Quote
Doesn't that say something about the value of patrolling?

Then hire more police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 04:18:05 pm
Not as punishment, for enlightenment.
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 04:22:53 pm
What am I missing? Police are as necessary as firemen and other first responders. I certainly don't subscribe to abolishing any of them I'd simply like to develop a psychiatric first responder component that's integrated with police departments.
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:26:06 pm
That drugs weren't a factor in the crimes against myself? Again, pretty sure.

I am not a drug user myself. I have never had any in my possession. So these people weren't robbing me to "get my stash".

 The guy that broke in was someone I had previously met. He was not some "street junky". And when my identity was stolen, the people took out credit in my name to buy things like TVs.

I have no problem believing that the "war on drugs" is a waste of time, and that drug laws should be lightened up. But I doubt very much whether you can trace the majority of crimes like robbery or fraud to "Well, they only did it because drugs were illegal"

I bet a lot of petty robbery is related to addiction and poverty. And there's also a lot of organized crime involvement in identity theft rings and fencing stolen goods as well as drugs so I'm not sure you can disentangle this knot.

Quote
(For the record, in my case no arrest was ever made for any of those crimes I mentioned. In my case the police were completely useless, and its probably that way in a lot of other cases too. Again, I have absolutely no problem with police reforms... maybe if they weren't spending money enforcing drug laws they might have caught the people who committed crimes against me. But I do recognize the difference between "Lets get the police focused on stuff that matters" and "Lets abolish them".

Again: abolition is an acknowledgement that the institution as currently constructed is beyond reform. So even if you abolish police and create a different kind of police, their training, equipment, role and responsibilities would be significantly different from what we have now.

Quote
Well, parking violations involve vehicles that are stationary, so they're pretty easy to identify and "ticket". Moving violations (impaired driving, dangerous driving, etc.) involve cars that are, well, moving. Kind of hard to "catch" them in that situation unless whomever is enforcing the law is in a vehicle themselves. Plus, since the charges are against the driver (rather than the car owner) you need to actually apprehend them to identify them.

What about check stops?

I mean you could have a designated "traffic enforcement agency" that does what the cops do to enforce traffic laws, only without the "pulling people over for broken taillights to justify vehicle searches" part.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 12, 2021, 04:27:28 pm
When have you had either?

Huh?

Quote
Then hire more police.

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 04:30:56 pm
OK, I'm sure most police wouldn't have a problem with that.
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 06:51:35 pm
Huh?

If the "wild west" isn't actually any wilder than the other parts of town, why would you need more cops?

Incidentally, even as police budgets increase, the actual number of cops has been declining for decades along with the crime rate.

You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.
What service do you know of that costs less than it did a few years ago.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 06:54:43 pm
To be perfectly honest I'm surprised they're not requesting and even demanding it in some places. There's also probably good reason to believe more suicides amongst police could be reduced by introducing a greater psychiatric element to policing.  I have a nephew in the RCMP and a son with schizophrenia, we've had this discussion amongst ourselves and my nephew thought having the 'cop talk' with our son was a reasonable thing to do given the numbers of schizophrenics that have been injured and killed in encounters with police.

I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 07:19:30 pm
I agree but asking for help doesn't come naturally in a cops don't cry culture that has existed since forever and is hard to change.

Families were given a copy of this book when the kid graduated from the JI

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617615.Cops_Don_t_Cry
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 08:38:57 pm
I can't help but wonder how much of that cop culture is stoked by a society that appears to place a premium on cracking down and being tough on crime.

I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 12, 2021, 09:21:37 pm
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2021, 10:10:26 pm
Paramilitary? That would be highly incongruous in the village I live in and probably outside even the very meanest streets in Canada. How has the militarization of police forces in the US worked out?  As with COVID in the US, Canada has the benefit of living next door to the most graphic example of what we don't need to do and what path not to take.

Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: eyeball on January 13, 2021, 01:56:57 am
Paramilitary because the next step in law enforcement is the real military.
Except that paramilitary is a term that describes an unofficial military organization.  I doubt that would work.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 09:39:46 am
You said you wanted them to patrol more, be more proactive. They don't have the bodies.

No I didn't. In fact, I said the exact opposite:

Now, certainly people will still get murdered or assaulted even in this world, which is why I think having a small and highly professional type of body that is tasked with investigating serious crimes would still be necessary, but the cop on the street who drives around hassling the poors would be hopefully rendered obsolete.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 09:50:36 am
I don't know. There are shitty people in this world and someone has to deal with them. It is a paramilitary organization after all. It has to be.

No it doesn't.

It's worthwhile to look at the history of policing to see why it is the way it is and what purpose it serves.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 13, 2021, 12:30:39 pm
Cops do a great job, if you’re white.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5861706
Quote
Whenever Kenrick McRae uses his car, he does a thorough spot check first. Before he gets in, he walks around the car, even testing the brake lights by putting a brick on the pedal to verify that the lights are on.

"I always want to be on the right side of the law," he told CBC's The Doc Project radio program.

But no matter how scrupulous he is, McRae, who is Black, can't seem to avoid being stopped by Montreal police. He's been pulled over dozens of times, he says, some months, as many as 15.

If you’re black, then not so much....

How many times have I been pulled over seemingly randomly?  Never. 
Do I need to walk around my car and test that everything works before leaving my driveway because I don’t want to give the cops any reason to pull me over?  No, never.

THIS is exactly the kind of thing that needs to stop and why “defund the police” is an excellent slogan.  **** the racist cops and **** their enablers....  each and every one of their colleagues who don’t push for things like this to change are just as bad as they are. 

$486 dollar ticket for having an open container of booze in the car when he was taking his bottles to the recyclers.

Smash the entire thing and rebuild it.  Fire every single officer once by one systematically across each police force and re-hire some of them back.  Start removing the racist ones and force them to PROVE they had a reason to pull over each and every person they pulled over that day.

I didn’t want to give my anecdotal experiences, as anecdotes aren’t really that useful, but these are interesting. 

I now a guy who is black that refuses to get a licence and drive a car because of how he has been treated in places in Canada when he has driven.

I know another guy, he’s S. American living in small town BC...  they often block the only road in and out to look for drunks, etc ...   Depending on the reason for the roadblock, most cars just get waved through....  never his.  There is ALWAYS a reason to pull him over “randomly”. 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 12:37:40 pm
No it doesn't.

It's worthwhile to look at the history of policing to see why it is the way it is and what purpose it serves.

Quote
A paramilitary organization is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces.

This describes a police force. It most certainly describes a tactical police force (ERT)
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 01:07:48 pm
This describes a police force. It most certainly describes a tactical police force (ERT)

No it describes a police force as traditionally constructed. A paramilitary structure with armament to match is not a prerequisite of policing.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 01:58:22 pm
No it describes a police force as traditionally constructed. A paramilitary structure with armament to match is not a prerequisite of policing.

It is unless you are going to call in an army special forces team any time you need ERT.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 02:23:42 pm
It is unless you are going to call in an army special forces team any time you need ERT.

Which is almost never. Oh sure, these teams get used a lot, but they're very seldom actually needed. But if you give cops a hammer, they tend to treat everything like a nail and that's been the case with the militarization of police.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 02:35:05 pm
Which is almost never. Oh sure, these teams get used a lot, but they're very seldom actually needed. But if you give cops a hammer, they tend to treat everything like a nail and that's been the case with the militarization of police.

Because no one got hurt you say they weren't needed.
The threat of overwhelming force is a great deterrent. Weakness gets people killed.

In New Brunswick three RCMP officers were killed and two more wounded by a single gunman for the simple reason he was better armed.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 03:58:10 pm
Because no one got hurt you say they weren't needed.
The threat of overwhelming force is a great deterrent. Weakness gets people killed.

By this logic, we should give cops helicopter gunships and stealth bombers because you just never know. Here in Canada studies have shown that reactive calls such as hostage situations and barricaded subjects comprised approximately 25% of tactical unit deployments. The rest is serving warrants and duties that could be handled by regular cops. But these units are hella expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.

Quote
In New Brunswick three RCMP officers were killed and two more wounded by a single gunman for the simple reason he was better armed.

Well that and there were multiple warning signs that this guy wasn't right in the head that were either ignored on not transmitted to the authorities.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 06:00:25 pm
By this logic, we should give cops helicopter gunships and stealth bombers because you just never know. Here in Canada studies have shown that reactive calls such as hostage situations and barricaded subjects comprised approximately 25% of tactical unit deployments. The rest is serving warrants and duties that could be handled by regular cops. But these units are hella expensive and need to be used to justify their existence.



Now you are getting really stupid

What do you think those warrants are for? Many are for known gang members and other nasty people, they aren't being served for shop lifting.

Quote
Well that and there were multiple warning signs that this guy wasn't right in the head that were either ignored on not transmitted to the authorities.

And that was somehow the fault of the police?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 13, 2021, 07:30:08 pm
What about check stops?

I mean you could have a designated "traffic enforcement agency" that does what the cops do to enforce traffic laws, only without the "pulling people over for broken taillights to justify vehicle searches" part.

That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 13, 2021, 07:37:10 pm
That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.

They can “smell marijuana”.... 
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:55:56 pm
Now you are getting really stupid

What do you think those warrants are for? Many are for known gang members and other nasty people, they aren't being served for shop lifting.

Prove it copsucker.

Quote
And that was somehow the fault of the police?

I'd explain it but there's simply no way it would penetrate your brain because it's so addled by pro cop propaganda and personal bias.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:57:22 pm
That might be fair idea.  On the other hand, a broken tail light will not allow a cop to search your vehicle.  The only legal way a cop can search your car is if he has reasonable suspicion to think there's something illegal inside your car (doesn't apply to broken tail light) or you give them consent to search.  Usually what happens is a suspicious cop will say "do you mind if I search your trunk/car?" and the intimidated people who don't know their rights will say "sure" and thus give consent.

Having a guy pull you over who doesn't have a gun would probably make things safer.

Yeah cops can and do cook up all kinds of b.s probable causes after the fact.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 13, 2021, 08:58:42 pm
They can “smell marijuana”....

Or they just "look like a person of interest" (read: black). See: Philando Castile.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 09:13:23 pm
Prove it copsucker.

I'd explain it but there's simply no way it would penetrate your brain because it's so addled by pro cop propaganda and personal bias.
Go **** yourself you ignorant git.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2021, 09:14:28 pm
They can “smell marijuana”....

Anyone can smell marijuana, it smells like you just walked into a patch of skunk cabbage.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 13, 2021, 09:54:51 pm
Yeah cops can and do cook up all kinds of b.s probable causes after the fact.

The cop has to give you the reason right then and there, or provide a search warrant.  This is why people who stopped by cops should always have their smartphone recording it.

If a cop is making up lies you can request their supervisor to come on site.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 13, 2021, 09:58:53 pm
Anyone can smell marijuana, it smells like you just walked into a patch of skunk cabbage.

Yes...   cops can smell it even when it’s not there....   that’s how amazing their senses are!
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 13, 2021, 10:08:17 pm
If a cop claimed to smell marijuana in my car and i wasn't smoking i'd request an MJ saliva test before they put one finger in my car.  I simply wouldn't open my car for them.  Then i'd file an official complain at their dept. and b&tch them out to their supervisor, run their name and badge # and photo all over facebook and twitter and reddit, upload the video to Youtube, and otherwise make their life a living hell.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 13, 2021, 10:51:35 pm
If a cop claimed to smell marijuana in my car and i wasn't smoking i'd request an MJ saliva test before they put one finger in my car.  I simply wouldn't open my car for them.  Then i'd file an official complain at their dept. and b&tch them out to their supervisor, run their name and badge # and photo all over facebook and twitter and reddit, upload the video to Youtube, and otherwise make their life a living hell.

You’d be dragged out by your hair kicking and screaming. Once they have probable cause, you’re done.  Good luck.

Of course, you’ll be fine....   they won’t smell anything coming from your mom’s car cuz you’re not a black or brown person.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 13, 2021, 11:14:01 pm
You’d be dragged out by your hair kicking and screaming. Once they have probable cause, you’re done.  Good luck.

They can't.  Smelling pot isn't probable cause:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/police-can-t-search-based-on-pot-smell-alone-sask-court-rules-1.701628

But if you want to let the cops to search your vehicle go ahead.  They aren't touching my car.

Quote
Of course, you’ll be fine....   they won’t smell anything coming from your mom’s car cuz you’re not a black or brown person.

Wow right to the insults huh?  Thank you for ironically showing everyone on this forum how childish you are!  That was easy.  :D

You nor anyone else on here has any idea what my race is.  Assuming my race because of how I post makes you prejudice and racist.  Any other great arguments to share with us?
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: kimmy on January 13, 2021, 11:33:17 pm
I think it's worth asking why this is such a polarizing slogan. I think the idea that we'd collapse into anarchy without the police is largely a byproduct of decades of nonstop copaganda with a big dash of racism ("if you get rid of the police *those people* will be able to do whatever they want!").

In my neighborhood, "those people" are mostly white meth-heads, and sharing European ancestry with them doesn't make me feel better about them doing whatever they want.

I agree with the premise that comprehensive mental health programs, drug rehabilitation, and anti-poverty programs could have a significant impact on the amount of crime that occurs. And I think that the majority of people are decent people who wouldn't commit serious crime even if there were not police around. However, I also believe that there are people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there were no police around.

 -k
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 09:42:27 am
Go **** yourself you ignorant git.

*insults a poster
*gets insulted back
*cries
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: the_squid on January 14, 2021, 09:58:35 am
Defund these fuckers....

Quote
Lawyers for a northern Ontario police force are trying to have video of an Indigenous man being dragged inside a police station excluded from an upcoming inquest.

The footage shows how Thunder Bay police officers treated Dino Kwandibens of Whitesand First Nation while in custody at the police station on Aug. 2, 2014, the same night Don Mamakwa, 44, of Kasabonika First Nation was arrested for public intoxication and later found dead in his cell.


Through their legal counsel, Thunder Bay's police chief and several officers filed a notice of motion to exclude the cellblock video, arguing the footage is irrelevant and outside the scope of the upcoming inquest into the deaths of Mamakwa and Roland McKay, 50, of Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug, who died in Thunder Bay Police Service (TBPS) custody on July 20, 2017.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/mamakwa-mckay-preinquest-video-motion-1.5871920

You can’t show video of what actually happened at the inquest to look into what happened!  That’s what the cops are arguing.  Dirtbags.

Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 10:05:29 am
In my neighborhood, "those people" are mostly white meth-heads, and sharing European ancestry with them doesn't make me feel better about them doing whatever they want.

I agree with the premise that comprehensive mental health programs, drug rehabilitation, and anti-poverty programs could have a significant impact on the amount of crime that occurs. And I think that the majority of people are decent people who wouldn't commit serious crime even if there were not police around. However, I also believe that there are people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there were no police around.

 -k

Those are probably the people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there are police around.

I'm not arguing there's no role for law enforcement in our society, quite the opposite. But I see no way of reforming the police when the police themselves are almost universally resistant to reform and accountability and the culture of modern policing is so thoroughly rotten. It's like trying to spruce up a house with a lick of paint and some new curtains when the foundation is crumbling.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Black Dog on January 14, 2021, 06:26:30 pm
Traffic enforcement without police (https://theappeal.org/traffic-enforcement-without-police/)

Quote
Of all the functions that could be separated from the police department, one of the most significant would be the removal of traffic enforcement. Over 24 million people each year come into contact with police during a traffic stop, according to data from the Department of Justice. And traffic stops can be especially dangerous and discriminatory for people of color: Black drivers are 20 percent more likely to be stopped than white drivers, and as much as twice as likely to be searched, according to a study of 100 million traffic stops conducted by the Stanford Open Policing Project. And 11 percent of all fatal shootings by police in 2015 occurred during traffic stops, according to a Washington Post database of police killings.
Title: Re: Defund the Police
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 14, 2021, 07:03:35 pm
Those are probably the people who would commit violence and other kinds of lawlessness if there are police around.

I'm not arguing there's no role for law enforcement in our society, quite the opposite. But I see no way of reforming the police when the police themselves are almost universally resistant to reform and accountability and the culture of modern policing is so thoroughly rotten. It's like trying to spruce up a house with a lick of paint and some new curtains when the foundation is crumbling.

You tell them that anyone who doesn't reform and do and follow the new training and procedures and current laws etc. will be fired.  And if the unions don't like that then you say then we'll fire all of you, shut down the police, and create a brand new law enforcement force.

The problem is the police chiefs let their officers literally get away with murder.  The culture is to protect the brotherhood, but police don't take an oath to serve and protect the brotherhood (themselves) they take an oath to serve and protect the public.  The mayors and city councilors need to hold the police chiefs accountable and stand up to the unions and force everyone to honour their oath or fire them, and citizens need to hold mayors/councilors accountable so they do this.