Canadian Political Events

Beyond Ottawa => Provincial and Local Politics => Topic started by: kimmy on April 16, 2017, 04:14:30 am

Title: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on April 16, 2017, 04:14:30 am
We're at it again. 

After last time, it would be foolish to write off Christie Clark's chances of winning. I live in a more conservative part of BC, and my feeling is that people are fairly satisfied with the provincial government here.  I think that BC is doing pretty well.  That mood might not be shared in the Lower Mainland, where most of the voters are.

My own primary concerns are issues that are actually a result of things going *too* well... things like skyrocketing cost of homes and rent.  BC is doing well economically, lots of people are moving here, and growth brings its own challenges.


Last time around, Christie campaigned on the promise that Liquified Natural Gas was going to create an energy windfall for the province. Nothing like that actually happened, and it turned out to not matter because the economy has done well regardless.

This time around, Clark's Liberals (who are actually the "right" here in BC) are casting themselves as the economy people, while John Horgan's NDP are casting themselves as the affordability people.  I think BC's "Conservative" party is some college kids doing this as an extra credit party or something. It's a pretty rec-league operation at this point.

The NDP "affordability" ideas seem to focus on costs that are in-your-face, like toll bridges and medical services premiums. I think these issues tend to have some traction with voters because the bill for them is in your face every month.  But the costs are there whether you see a bill or not. The NDP released a cost analysis of their promises this week.  They promise balanced budgets, based the idea that they will create billions of new revenue, combined with "eliminating waste".

Personally I think affordability sounds great.  I'd love to see my MSP premiums eliminated.  I think a lot of the ideas the NDP are presenting have some visceral appeal. But nothing is free.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2017, 09:14:01 am
I would like to see the Liberals get a time out or a minority to relearn a little humility. 16 years in power has made them arrogant and entitled. Clark herself has turned out to be a real political animal, who's actions while in government have turned out to be the exact opposite of the positions she used to take on Liberal party policies as a radio host.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on April 16, 2017, 11:37:17 am
I kind of agree about the arrogance... I'm just not 100% sure about the alternative.

The NDP platform looks REALLY EXPENSIVE to my eyes.

The stuff Horgan is talking about on his TV commercials does strike an emotional chord with me.  I'm concerned about the things he talks about. Affordability. All the fees and tolls and premiums we pay.   I feel terrible for people who live in areas where they have to pay a toll every time they want to drive anywhere. The cost of housing in the populous areas of this province is completely through the roof, and I don't think the Liberals remotely give a crap. That concerns me.

Some of the ideas they're presenting seem good, but I am concerned about the overall tab and whether their projections are reasonable.  Of course, as Horgan goes about promising things that will make peoples' lives more affordable, Christie is now running around after him saying "me too!"  She is also now apparently very concerned about affordability, quite suddenly.

-k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on April 16, 2017, 05:29:17 pm
Yes, he will need to explain how he is going to pay for it all. I'm waiting for the Greens to put out their platform. If it looks fiscally responsible, I think I'll give them a try.  Wish we had a good independent like Vicki Huntingdon running in my riding but even she is quitting for health reasons. She has endorsed another independent to succeed her though.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on April 17, 2017, 10:42:56 am
I guess the good thing about the NDP platform is that it makes Christie pretend she cares about affordability once every 4 years.

With really just two viable options, that are almost polar opposites of each other, we really do kind of need some balance that's sorely lacking between the two parties.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on April 17, 2017, 07:34:50 pm
I agree so what do you do, keep holding your nose and walking out of the poling place feeling you need a shower, or take a chance on something different for four years? I feel like I need a change from the former.

The thing that bothered me most about the Liberals winning last time was knowing they would  make sure we never found out what happened with BC Rail. That might be before you moved to BC but it stunk worse than a dead salmon sitting in the sun for a week and your dog which had just rolled in it.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2017, 12:41:33 pm
I would like to see the Liberals get a time out or a minority to relearn a little humility. 16 years in power has made them arrogant and entitled.

It was the same problem with the Ontario Liberals, they are certainly well past their best before date. The issue is credible alternatives.

Another reason I like proportional representation. Perhaps more people would support alternatives if they had any chance of getting some influence.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on April 18, 2017, 02:31:50 pm
It was the same problem with the Ontario Liberals, they are certainly well past their best before date. The issue is credible alternatives.

Another reason I like proportional representation. Perhaps more people would support alternatives if they had any chance of getting some influence.

After year long deliberations by panel composed of citizens representing a cross section of British Columbians, they recommended a STV system. We had two referendums on going to it and both times, the bone heads turned it down. Now they are back to bitching about the same things that are wrong with FPP. We had our chance and screwed it up because those in power are quite happy with the status quo.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: ?Impact on April 18, 2017, 03:10:46 pm
After year long deliberations by panel composed of citizens representing a cross section of British Columbians, they recommended a STV system. We had two referendums on going to it and both times, the bone heads turned it down. Now they are back to bitching about the same things that are wrong with FPP. We had our chance and screwed it up because those in power are quite happy with the status quo.

I don't know about BC, but the panel set up by the Ontario Liberals was designed to fail. Perhaps the referendum should be about is the status quo acceptable, instead of suggesting an alternative and doing very little to really educate the broader public.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on April 18, 2017, 05:09:34 pm
I don't know about BC, but the panel set up by the Ontario Liberals was designed to fail. Perhaps the referendum should be about is the status quo acceptable, instead of suggesting an alternative and doing very little to really educate the broader public.

The first time it almost passed. The second time there was a real campaign against it saying it was too complicated. I think a lot of people couldn't be bothered to figure out how it worked and just voted no.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on April 18, 2017, 06:17:40 pm
I kind of agree about the arrogance... I'm just not 100% sure about the alternative.

The NDP platform looks REALLY EXPENSIVE to my eyes.

The stuff Horgan is talking about on his TV commercials does strike an emotional chord with me.  I'm concerned about the things he talks about. Affordability. All the fees and tolls and premiums we pay.   I feel terrible for people who live in areas where they have to pay a toll every time they want to drive anywhere. The cost of housing in the populous areas of this province is completely through the roof, and I don't think the Liberals remotely give a crap. That concerns me.


I'm trepid about Horgan too but I'm willing to give him a chance.  At least there is hope he'll work out whereas Christie Clark has ruined the province as far as I'm concerned.
 She waited way too long to act on the housing market and that alone merits a boot out the door. 

Horgan isn't making empty promises like 'a doctor for every family' but he's at least trying what could potentially end up being feasible solution to the shortage of doctors by coming up with urgent care centres.  I think that's one of the most brilliant things I've heard in a long time.  Somewhere to go in between doctor and hospitals for things like stitches and casts and ease up with wait lines in emergencies.

To me healthcare and housing are the two biggest issues and he seems to recognize that.  We moved to the outskirts years ago and I still have to travel an hour to go see my family doctor because nobody here is taking new patients and clinics all close by noon. 

As my family grew I find we've become even priced out of the burbs and I don't want to move but we may not have a choice.  We're not rich, but we both make above average wages, it's ridiculous that we have to be eyeing the Fraser Valley just to have a little extra room.

I hate Christie Clark with a passion.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on April 27, 2017, 03:09:13 pm
After last night's debate, I really don't know what to do anymore.  I was under the impression that Horgan's stance on housing was different but after last night's debate I looked into it some more and I don't think it's enough.  I'm very disappointed.

The Liberals didn't act fast enough and the 15% tax imposed on anyone without residency is stupid and makes BC an unattractive place for companies, especially the tech sector.  The Greens want to double it and make it province-wide which would pretty much ensure no companies would ever come here.

The NDP wants to implement an annual 2% speculative tax for foreign buyers who don't live here but when the market is giving returns of 20%-30%, that 2% is not material enough to be a deterrent  Anyone you find to manage your funds for you would take that and you'd be lucky to get a return of 10%.

It should be a combination of both - say a 15% *annual* fee for people who don't live here, and exempt are the foreigners who are actually working and living in BC. 

What a shit show, I don't think any of these leaders are actually capable of addressing the biggest issue facing our province.  What a shame.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on April 27, 2017, 05:28:24 pm
Yeah, I was disappointed too.  I am going to look more into Green platform as I've been essentially ignoring them, but I liked what Weaver said about education, the opioid crisis and health care.   Horgan sounded a little too vague on a couple things, although I also really liked his plan for urgent care to relieve pressures on emergency.   Currently sitting in emergency with friend who is dying, although probably not today.   He desperately needs palliative care but very hard to arrange and the hospital sends him home where he lives alone, only to have him returned by ambulance within a week.   This has been going on since January.  Whenever a politician goes on about lowering rates on corporate or personal taxes I think this is who is paying for that. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on April 28, 2017, 12:17:38 am
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend.  I know the terrible feeling of sitting in the hospital as a loved one dies, it's especially difficult if it's before their time.  They are lucky to have you beside them.

I think at the end of the day I will end up voting NDP but definitely not with the same enthusiasm I did before.  Housing is the biggest crisis facing this province in my opinion.  Nowhere is affordable anymore and it's going to be a huge economic problem within 5-10 years as younger generations leave. 

Having said that, there are other issues on the table and at this point I would vote for anyone who has the best chance of defeating Christie Clark and I think that party is the NDP.  The Greens are splitting the vote and the best thing the Liberals have going for them.  No wonder they took out a full page ad last election in the Vancouver Island newspaper promoting the Greens.   >:(

I am going to vote this weekend too before I get a chance to second guess myself.  At least I really like the NDP candidate in my riding. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on May 04, 2017, 09:23:41 am
I'm about 50% dropping these articles here for discussion, and 50% so I can read them later. I was just hearing about this on the radio.

"Advantage BC" is a private organization that gives out tax breaks, on behalf of the ministry of finance, to foreign companies ostensibly to invest in BC.  The membership in this club isn't available to the public, nor is information about who is receiving tax breaks.  This arrangement seems extraordinarily fishy.  This came to light due to a report from the New York Times, of all places.

There have been, apparently, $140 million of tax breaks given out, and the result is ... 300 jobs.


http://www.news1130.com/2017/05/03/liberal-leader-dismissing-latest-wild-west-article-new-york-times/

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-liberals-under-fire-for-mystery-program-that-gives-tax-breaks-to-wealthy-foreign-companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/world/canada/british-columbias-business-temptation-an-opaque-array-of-tax-breaks.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: poochy on May 04, 2017, 09:36:11 am
It was the same problem with the Ontario Liberals, they are certainly well past their best before date. The issue is credible alternatives.

Another reason I like proportional representation. Perhaps more people would support alternatives if they had any chance of getting some influence.

No, the issue is that liberals want to vote liberal, no matter what, no matter what they have accomplished or done, credible alternatives is code speak for, not liberal.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on May 04, 2017, 03:08:00 pm
No, the issue is that liberals want to vote liberal, no matter what, no matter what they have accomplished or done, credible alternatives is code speak for, not liberal.
Same can be said of some conservatives.  Also,  BC Liberals are more like Conservatives than Liberal, so that's is who the die-hard conservatives will vote for.   
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on May 05, 2017, 09:45:03 am
There have been, apparently, $140 million of tax breaks given out, and the result is ... 300 jobs.

http://www.news1130.com/2017/05/03/liberal-leader-dismissing-latest-wild-west-article-new-york-times/

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-liberals-under-fire-for-mystery-program-that-gives-tax-breaks-to-wealthy-foreign-companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/world/canada/british-columbias-business-temptation-an-opaque-array-of-tax-breaks.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1

As I read and hear more about this "Advantage BC" stuff, I think it's the final straw for me. There's no good reason for this lack of transparency. The only reason I can think of that it might have been set up in such a way is to dodge Freedom of Information requests.  When something is done in what appears to be a deliberate effort to avoid transparency, I think it's completely reasonable to suspect that shenanigans are going on.

Here in the Kim City/Lost Lake riding, I can vote for or against Ms Clark directly. I suspect she'll win anyway, but I'll be voting for her NDP opponent.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 07, 2017, 02:12:15 pm
I found out my husband voted Greens because of his irrational hatred of the NDP. 

In my view, a vote for the Greens in a 'too close to call' riding like ours is a vote for the Liberals.

I asked him to sleep on the couch for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 07, 2017, 03:05:15 pm
1. Hatred of the BC NDP is perfectly rational.

2. A vote for Green is a vote against the NDP: he's a keeper.

3. Maybe he is happier on the couch?  ;D
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 07, 2017, 03:26:38 pm
Oh look, a Liberal supporter basking in the knowledge that the Greens are the only way their party will win an election.

Shocking.







Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 07, 2017, 03:50:43 pm
An NDP'er who feigns shock at a Christy Clark hater's glee that the rationally hated NDP have to fend off the Greens is quite delightful on this sunny afternoon!   :D

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on May 10, 2017, 09:24:20 am
Wellllll, looks like we get a minority government. 

I expect Ms Clark to do the Stephen Harper thing, and run a government without making a coalition and do as she wishes, secure in the knowledge that nobody is going to want to force another election.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 10, 2017, 11:40:44 am
There's still a good chance the Liberals will get their majority.  The NDP candidate in Courtnay-Comox won by 9 votes and the Liberal candidate is a former member of the armed forces so the absentee ballots may very well be a game changer.

And if the seats remain the same, my prediction is Andrew Weaver will officially join the Liberals for a coalition now that he failed to deliver on handing them another victory through vote splitting.

The way he kept attacking Horgan throughout the campaign and cozying up to the Liberals even though NDP is much more aligned with the Green environmental platform, it was quite obvious which one of the viable parties Weaver is rooting for.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 11, 2017, 09:45:26 am
This idea that the Greens took votes away from the NDP is odd:

2009 election:  Liberals 45.8% NDP 42.2% GP 8.2%

2013 election: Liberals 44.1 NDP 39.7 GP 8.1

2017 election: Liberals 40.9 NDP 39.9 GP 16.7

Note that 2017 is based on initial count as absentee votes will not be counted until May 22-24. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on May 24, 2017, 09:03:19 pm
YEP well all the votes are counted and Christy Clark still doesn't have a majority, and now both her and the NDP say they want to form the government.

SOOOO while you'd think the LtGov would give Christy the first crack at it, given that she is the incumbent and has the most seats, apparently that's not etched in stone and if the NDP and Greens approach the LtGov with a formal coalition, she could opt to give them the first chance.


ABOUT the Lt Gov:   Judith Guichon is apparently a rancher from the Merritt area.  No doubt her lifetime of wrangling cattle has left her well prepared for dealing with this situation!


 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: cybercoma on May 25, 2017, 02:17:20 pm
If the Greens and NDP have a formalized coalition then their coalition holds the most seats and it would be in the province's best interest that they're allowed to govern. By giving it to Clark, the Lt Gov is all but ensuring that the opposition will just bring down the government at the first opportunity. The only option then would be to allow the coalition to govern, since it's not like they'll call an election immediately after just having one.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on May 25, 2017, 06:24:29 pm
I think another election within 18 month is prteey much assured regardless of who forms the government. Elections are a crap shoot for every party and they will have to think long and hard before forcing one.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: cybercoma on May 26, 2017, 09:40:29 am
I think another election within 18 month is prteey much assured regardless of who forms the government. Elections are a crap shoot for every party and they will have to think long and hard before forcing one.
Not if there's a formal coalition. Then they have a majority.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on May 26, 2017, 09:54:49 am
Not if there's a formal coalition. Then they have a majority.

It's still a coalition between two parties, many of who's interests are not the same. It can fall apart at any time. It all depends on how much each of them are willing to give in order for he coalition  to stay together.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 27, 2017, 11:04:12 am
I would be very surprised if the NDP and Greens form a coalition.  I still think Greens are more likely to prop up the Liberals because they've always been Team Liberal.  This time around was no different.  Weaver is a fraud.

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/04/25/Green-Party-Contradictions/
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 29, 2017, 03:15:35 pm
Again, I do not see what the big deal is here.

There are many little "Robert's Rules of Order" type reasons why the GP has to try to make a go with the LP's.

With 43 LP and 3 GP you can still have a speaker from either party and still carry off a vote (44 votes is needed and they would have 45 to the NDP's 41). 

If you read Kevin Milligan on twitter then there are also rules around committee votes. 

For the NDP/GP to form government, presumably with an NDP speaker, then they are not a stable government since they have 43 votes to the LP's 43.

That is, the NDP/GP would not be able to get anything passed through.

I expect that Weaver knows this stuff (or has people that knows this stuff) whereas the rest of us don't unless we are fortunate enough to come across this mundane stuff on Twitter.

In the end it is practical things like this that will force either a GP/LP government or an election.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JMT on May 29, 2017, 03:19:13 pm
The NDP and Greens are going to make an announcement very soon.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 29, 2017, 03:23:10 pm
Yep, will be interesting to see what they are planning.

Maybe I am wrong and they are unaware of these little rules.

In which case, there will be an election at a time of the LP's choosing. 

Unless a LP member has agreed to cross the floor to the GP - now that would be interesting.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 29, 2017, 04:13:01 pm
Dammit, no crossing of the floor.

I am looking forward to all the action in the coming weeks/months. 

Will be interesting to see how this PR experiment in a FPTP system will pan out.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 29, 2017, 04:31:17 pm
The NDP and Greens are going to make an announcement very soon.

You mean this?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/b-c-greens-back-ndp-for-minority-government-1.3434467


My prediction was wrong, Greens would back the NDP and it's now down to NDP to vote yes or no for the coalition.  I'm very surprised by this.

On a personal note if this goes through I can laugh at my husband for supporting the party that made for an NDP government in spite of his irrational hatred for them.  LOL
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 29, 2017, 06:34:39 pm

On a personal note if this goes through I can laugh at my husband for supporting the party that made for an NDP government in spite of his irrational hatred for them.  LOL

Yes, he is a good man who may have been foiled by a cunning Clark???

I wonder if this is Clark's preference. Why not?

Everyone is going on about how the NDP/GP should be together etc etc...

Maybe she wants to give the people what they want - give them a go and hope things fall apart as the Ivory Tower meets the real world political machinations.

It should be hard to govern at least one member shy of a true coalition. And if the economy turns (thanks to Trump, thanks to a softer economy just because of mean reversion, etc) then all the better.

Risky, but if she is playing the long game could be good for her.

Which sucks because I would prefer for her to resign and have a new leader.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 30, 2017, 11:43:16 am
First, Speaker can vote in the event of a tie, so no, the Greens and NDP do have a majority.

Second, Greens made it abundantly clear that there will be an electoral reform.  The disaccord was that Horgan wanted to have a referendum on it first and Weaver wanted to enforce it and then after two elections have a referendum to see if people want to keep it. 

If the NDP vote yes today on the agreement, we will hear the details but given that Weaver was adamant about electoral reform as a condition of working together, I think it's safe to say that Liberals rejected the idea and the NDP agreed, even if the details of how it will be implemented remains to be seem.

The Liberals are the biggest benefactors of FPTP in BC where they constantly get more percentage of the seats than their popular vote.

I don't believe for a minute that CC would sit back for strategic reasons and allow this agreement to go on knowing that our electoral system is the biggest strength for her party. 

More likely, she knew that Weaver is not going to compromise on the issue and her party's days of enjoying majority seats without majority votes are over either way, and she didn't want to be the one providing a helping hand in getting it done.

She could die a slow painful death or just pull the trigger.  She chose wisely.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 30, 2017, 01:23:14 pm
I just read this on CBC:

Quote
Political scientist Hamish Telford said Clark must either concede defeat or be defeated in the legislature. He expects she will choose a vote over a speedy concession.

With just a single seat separating the NDP and Greens from the Liberals, analysts say it would take just one New Democrat or Green to miss a ferry or be unexpectedly delayed and Clark's Liberals
could survive a confidence vote.

This is by far the most exciting election I've experienced in my adult life. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on May 30, 2017, 02:59:51 pm
It is not going to be easy to push through legislation unless a Liberal agrees to be speaker - Sam Sullivan or Linda Reid perhaps?

Even then they will have to be monitoring bathroom breaks, sickness etc...

It would not be easy for the LP/GP to do it with 46 members so it is going to be hard for the NDP/GP to do it with 44.

As for PR - this could become the key issue leading to the fall of a minority government and a new election - but when and who will benefit from this remains to be seen.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JMT on May 30, 2017, 05:58:36 pm
So Clark is going to meet the Legislature, and test confidence.  I think this is a smart move that may just work in her favour.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on May 30, 2017, 06:53:51 pm
Clark even said in her speech today that she'll likely lose.  She's just stalling to shred and delete.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JMT on May 31, 2017, 12:44:52 pm
Clark even said in her speech today that she'll likely lose.  She's just stalling to shred and delete.

She'll likely lose - but it's a long way from where we are to the day of the vote.  She could theoretically stall until the fall if she wanted.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on May 31, 2017, 07:35:54 pm
She said June, likely earlier than later.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JMT on May 31, 2017, 08:51:17 pm
She said June, likely earlier than later.

I know - I was just taking it to theoretical extremes.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 01, 2017, 02:45:57 pm
I guess I am looking at this and wondering how BC is better off with a stalled legislature.

I know Clark is supposed to do the right thing and step aside, according to the NDP/GP, but really I think the GP should have done the right thing and formed a minority government with the LP since together they would have a proper majority with a speaker taken from their ranks.

My take away here, as a guy who let his wife talk him into voting for the LP due to the local candidate but who was thinking of voting Green because I hate Clark, is that I no longer can trust the GP to do what makes sense: join with whichever party will take you to 44+ seats and allow for a speaker (so, have at least 45 seats).

Yes, this means compromise.

Instead, we have a GP that may have been swayed by an electorate who do not know of the difficulties of administering a legislature and committees without a clear majority.

What this means to me is that not only will I never vote for the NDP, but I will now no longer even consider the GP.

We saw the vote for the LP go down from 45% in the 2013 election to 40% this election.  I wonder how much of that is disgruntled (with Clark) LP supporters?

If so, it may be good to see the NDP/GP muddle through for a period of time as a reminder to these people that there is a reason to vote LP even if we do not like the leader - because the other side can't do basic math and we are not even discussing the deficit budgets yet.

The other take away for me is how much Andrew Weaver reminds me of Harper.

I hated Harper for his cold political calculations at the expense of good policy - cut the GST, bring in boutique tax credits, bring in the UCCB rather than boost the existing CTB system, that sort of thing.

For Weaver, it is going to be with his environmental policy where he often was taking reasonable positions but now will clearly move further into what people think the GP is supposed to be: some kind of left wing environmental policy shift without regard to staking out some middle ground like what Trudeau has tried to achieve with Notley and Clark.

For example, Weaver on oil sands: http://www.nature.com/news/canadian-oil-sands-defusing-the-carbon-bomb-1.10110 

But that was then and this, opportunity, is now.


Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on June 26, 2017, 08:56:17 am
"Guys! Guys!  Look guys! I'm affordable too! I'm all about affordability! I love affordability! Guys! We're getting rid of tolls! We're boosting funds for stuff!  We're doing all the stuff we opposed last month! Because I love affordability now!"

 -Kim City/Lost Lake MLA Christy Clark, "the affordability premier."
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 27, 2017, 09:14:19 am
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

@Kimmy.  It will probably confuse enough people to give her a majority next time out and she/they can go return to their regular graft.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 27, 2017, 11:30:17 am
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

You know, I found out this election that my husband would never vote NDP and it really irked me.

I may be a hard lefty who has found herself aligned with the NDP both federally and provincially for the last few elections, but I could never rule out a political party all together.

In the past I have voted for different parties on both federal and provincial levels and it all depends on the circumstances.  What party is in power, how long they've been there and what have they been doing.  Who actually has a shot of winning in my riding.  Who has the most tolerable platform. 

Heck, I could even vote CPC if the circumstances were right and I would never say never just because of their past policies or their party colours. 

I asked msj a while ago about his reasons for not voting NDP provincially and I know they're different than my husband's, but as far as my husband goes, I lost a lot of respect this election.  He knew the Liberals needed to go, he knew the Greens didn't stand a chance in our riding, yet he just couldn't vote for the NDP because... the 90's. 

It's so small minded.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 27, 2017, 02:35:46 pm
In the 80s I was a JW and paying no attention to politics.  I do remember very high interest rates, jobs lost and house prices falling dramatically in the late 80s.  Looking back, it seems the SoCreds were in power and when the NDP took over, they reformed as the Liberals.  So to me it looks the NDP took over when the economy was already on a downhill slide and are then blamed for everything, even though objective examination shows little difference between Liberal and NDP economic performance overall - both parties have highs and lows depending very much on what's happening outside their control.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 27, 2017, 03:12:47 pm
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

Lots of reasons:

I am a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian - so there is no way I am going to vote for the BC Conservative party, for example, as they are socially conservative.

Well, the NDP are fiscally irresponsible, imo, so no way I will ever vote for them.

NDP are anti-business - they have a few good ideas and then some nut case, usually the NDP candidate running in my riding, will say something so stupid, yet so typically NDP, that there is just no way I can trust any of them.

Prior experience - the NDP were awful in the 1990's and that is a legitimate memory and legitimate reason to not vote for them - there is no evidence that this group would be any less incompetent than that bunch.

Then there are specific policies like child care that I will not support.  I am fine with child care subsidies via tax credits/deductions but not direct for everyone. I like the Kevin Milligan solution of refundable tax credits, for example.

Finally, this grab for power by them and the Greens proves that they, and the Greens, just do not understand basic math.

The government should be the Liberals and the Green's who compromise with their 45 seats plus 1 speaker.

For the GP and NDP to attain and then maintain power with 43 plus 1 speaker is possible but not ideal. 

If they can't understand that simple concept then they will be hopeless at budgeting. Therefore, back to being a fiscal conservative hence no dice to vote for them.


Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: MH on June 27, 2017, 03:45:49 pm


I may be a hard lefty who has found herself aligned with the NDP both federally and provincially for the last few elections, but I could never rule out a political party all together.
 

Me neither.  Thanks to Doug Ford I will probably vote for John Tory for mayor next election.  It's exciting !
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: MH on June 27, 2017, 03:46:33 pm
In the 80s I was a JW and paying no attention to politics.

Whoa.  That's a thread right there.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 27, 2017, 03:49:33 pm
NDP are anti-business -

I think our tax system is incredibly biased in favour of businesses leaving a disproportionate amount of the tax burden on the working and middle class.

I know the justification is that businesses provide jobs and without providing an attractive environment for them they'd up and leave but having worked on the financial end of things in industry, I can say that 1-2% changes in tax rates have very little to do with important business decisions like whether or not to conduct business in a particular region.

If a business can outsource somehow, it will.  If it has to remain local, it will adapt.

Personally, I think the playing field needs to be evened out and businesses need to start sharing more of the tax burden. 

This doesn't make me anti-business, it makes me pro-middle class. 

Note, I'm not a payroll employee, but I do feel for them.  The current system really isn't fair to them. 

I think the NDP recognizes that and like me, that doesn't make them anti-business.  They just want a more fair tax system.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 27, 2017, 07:19:27 pm
The last time the NDP were in power the personal tax rates in this province were 8.4%, 12.4% and 14.35% and an additional surtax at rates of 30% and 15% (of the provincial tax) making them some of the highest in Canada/North America.

The corporate tax rate for small business was over 5% and for big business was over 16%.

And those are just the provincial rates.

Compare that to today's personal rates of 5.06%, 7.70%, 10.50%, 12.29% and 14.70% without any surtax and 2.5% for small corporations and 11% for big.

Huge difference and there is no doubt that they will raise income taxes because that is what they do - always have, always will.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 27, 2017, 08:23:09 pm
Along with that we also have the second worst poverty rate in Canada, which includes children.   BC is the only province without a poverty reduction plan.  Most people, and especially people who are in the.lower economic echelon were better off financially in the 90s, despite the higher taxes.  In rhe 90s it was much easier to find affordable housing, whether buying or renting.  Low taxes are not the defining indication of a well run economy or society.


Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 27, 2017, 08:38:17 pm
I'm going to ask for a citation on that poverty rate comparison between the 1990's and present.

Hard to come up with consistent data but the numbers I am seeing show that it is lower today than it was during most of the 1990's and lower than in the early 2000's.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 27, 2017, 09:29:28 pm
The last time the NDP were in power the personal tax rates in this province were 8.4%, 12.4% and 14.35% and an additional surtax at rates of 30% and 15% (of the provincial tax) making them some of the highest in Canada/North America.

The corporate tax rate for small business was over 5% and for big business was over 16%.

And those are just the provincial rates.

Compare that to today's personal rates of 5.06%, 7.70%, 10.50%, 12.29% and 14.70% without any surtax and 2.5% for small corporations and 11% for big.

Huge difference and there is no doubt that they will raise income taxes because that is what they do - always have, always will.

They're only proposing a 1% increase in corporate tax rate bringing the province on par with the other provinces and eliminating tax cuts for the top 2%.

If you put your crystal ball of what they'll actually do aside for a minute and just debates the proposed increases, don't you agree it's more pro-middle class, and not at all anti-business?

 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 27, 2017, 09:56:29 pm
I'm going to ask for a citation on that poverty rate comparison between the 1990's and present.

Hard to come up with consistent data but the numbers I am seeing show that it is lower today than it was during most of the 1990's and lower than in the early 2000's.

Sure.  But please note that I referenced BCs poverty rate relative to the rest of Canada, not to the 1990s.  BC used to be at the national average, and lower than other provinces, but now is among the worst in terms of number of people living in poverty.

BC poverty rate has declined a bit since the 90s, but is now the second highest in Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/reality-check-b-c-s-child-poverty-rate-1.1307393 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/reality-check-b-c-s-child-poverty-rate-1.1307393)



Other provinces have done better in reducing poverty since 1990s
Between 1990 and 1996, BC's poverty rate tended to be at or around the national average and lower than many other provinces.
http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fscphis2.htm

Other provinces have reduced their poverty rates, while BC has not - this table shows poverty rates to 2010.   
https://cpj.ca/files/docs/poverty-trends-scorecard.pdf

This trend continues to 2016:
http://campaign2000.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-BC-Child-Poverty-Report-Card.pdf

As BC's poverty rate has increased, while employment and overall wealth has gone up, taxes have gone down: 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/tax-season-2015-where-in-canada-do-you-pay-the-most-tax-1.2507059

In summary, BC increases it's overall wealth, decreases taxes and does nothing to alleviate poverty.

As for life being more affordable in the 1990s, it was possible to find a place to rent or buy - even in the lower mainland and even at the lower end of the middle-income level.   This is because while housing (and all) costs have risen substantially since the 1990s, income has not risen proportionately.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2531266/one-chart-shows-how-unprecedented-vancouvers-real-estate-situation-is/
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-563/p1-eng.cfm

Once again, low taxes do not imply a successful economy or a well-functioning society.

By the way, it's not necessarily that I think Liberals are "responsible" for this state of affairs; I just object to the simple minded notion that any political party can be held entirely responsible for what the economy does during it's tenure.  Nonetheless, in a province that we're told constantly is doing so 'well' economically relative to the rest of Canada, why is our poverty rate so high?   Why isn't the government willing to share the fruits of our labor with those who are temporarily out of work or those who are simply unable to work?   




Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 27, 2017, 10:13:11 pm
Sure.  But please note that I referenced BCs poverty rate relative to the rest of Canada, not to the 1990s.

It always comes back to the 90's with the anti-NDP crowd.  The Liberals could torch all of BC but we'll still be hearing about why the NDP is not a viable alternative because... the 90's.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on June 28, 2017, 12:23:39 am
I was pretty young when my family lived in Victoria in the 1990s... I wasn't an astute follower of politics at the time.  But I recall that there was an ethics issue with Glen Clark, and I recall that the Fast Ferries program was quite a boondoggle.

As well, I recall the general sense that while the rest of the country was growing, BC wasn't keeping up. I recall hearing some businessman talk-- and this might have been on Angry Old People talk radio, so it might not have been an unbiased account-- but he was talking to an interviewer about why he located his new facility in Alberta instead of BC.  He said he spent a couple of days in BC and met with a bunch of minor-league officials from government agencies. Someone from the labor department came and told him about diversity targets he'd be expected to meet. Someone from the environment office came and told him about environmental regulations he'd be required to meet.  Someone from municipal affairs came and told him about taxes and utility and infrastructure costs he'd be expected to pay. And so on. It was all about what they expected from him.   When he went to Alberta he got the exact opposite. Everybody talked about what they could do for him.   So of course he picked Alberta instead of BC.  This was an ongoing concern, if I recall-- "thousands of jobs every week are moving from BC to Alberta".  I don't know how much of that was real and how much was hype, but it certainly seemed to be a concern that was being talked about.

But that was 20 years ago... Glen Clark and Usual Dosage are long gone.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 01:42:36 am
Sure.  But please note that I referenced BCs poverty rate relative to the rest of Canada, not to the 1990s.  BC used to be at the national average, and lower than other provinces, but now is among the worst in terms of number of people living in poverty.


You brought up the '80's and the '90's in post #49 and also specifically the '90's in post # 55 so stop the cherry picking BS.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 01:44:56 am
They're only proposing a 1% increase in corporate tax rate bringing the province on par with the other provinces and eliminating tax cuts for the top 2%.

If you put your crystal ball of what they'll actually do aside for a minute and just debates the proposed increases, don't you agree it's more pro-middle class, and not at all anti-business?

Nope, I will trust a tax increase from the LP but from no one else. The NDP will increase them again and again and again because that is what they do as they have no fiscal discipline in this province.

Never have, never will.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 02:07:34 am
Those looking for consistency of data can play with the tables here: http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a26?lang=eng&retrLang=eng&id=2060041&pattern=&csid=

Requires the use of the add/remove data function and then select provinces, all people, all low income lines, percentage of persons in low income, and years 1992 - 2015. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 02:23:40 am
But that was 20 years ago... Glen Clark and Usual Dosage are long gone.

 -k

Love the spell check there.

The people are gone but the philosophy is the same so new Clark's [Horgan] and Dosanjh's [Weaver] in sheeps clothing (but without actually harming any sheep, of course).
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 28, 2017, 09:52:46 am
You brought up the '80's and the '90's in post #49 and also specifically the '90's in post # 55 so stop the cherry picking BS.

I said in #55:  Along with that we also have the second worst poverty rate in Canada, which includes children.   BC is the only province without a poverty reduction plan. 

You responded to that and asked for a cite relative to 90s, and I reiterated that I was comparing to the rest of Canada and not the 90s.  And then I provided cites for what I said, not what you thought I said.

Disagree if you want or provide alternate information; I may be swayed by your arguments because I don't consider myself all that politically savvy and I have always respected your knowledge whether I agree with your opinion or not.

But don't get snarky with me because you failed to read what I wrote. 

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on June 28, 2017, 09:56:50 am
Those looking for consistency of data can play with the tables here: http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a26?lang=eng&retrLang=eng&id=2060041&pattern=&csid=

Requires the use of the add/remove data function and then select provinces, all people, all low income lines, percentage of persons in low income, and years 1992 - 2015.

This I appreciate.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 28, 2017, 12:07:01 pm
Nope, I will trust a tax increase from the LP but from no one else. The NDP will increase them again and again and again because that is what they do as they have no fiscal discipline in this province.

Never have, never will.

I'm not asking you if you trust them -- it's obvious you don't. 

I'm asking you whether you think increasing corporate income tax by 1% and scrapping tax cuts for the top 2% is 'anti-business'?

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: cybercoma on June 28, 2017, 12:09:54 pm
I'm not asking you if you trust them -- it's obvious you don't. 

I'm asking you whether you think increasing corporate income tax by 1% and scrapping tax cuts for the top 2% is 'anti-business'?
Even if it is, fuck business. Public policy has been anti-worker for decades now.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 28, 2017, 12:14:45 pm
Yeah, I said the same thing earlier.  Businesses really need to start sharing more of the tax burden.  Middle/Upper Middle-class payroll employees are pretty much carrying this country.  It's not fair.

And it's BS that businesses will just up and leave unless we create a good environment for them.  If they can, they're leaving NOW, and they pay virtually no tax and minimum wage is a joke.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 04:03:57 pm


But don't get snarky with me because you failed to read what I wrote.

Not being snarky.

However, annoyed by this BS "can't talk about the 90's" meme throughout this thread.

History often repeats, or at least rhymes, especially when people of the same political persuasion are running under the same political party.

We all know that the BC Liberals are just the crooked Socreds, for example. Hell, that's why you brought them up and the 80's. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 04:05:52 pm

I'm asking you whether you think increasing corporate income tax by 1% and scrapping tax cuts for the top 2% is 'anti-business'?

I'm fine with it as long as it is the Liberals doing it.

If it's the NDP/GP then this will be the start of spiraling deficits and, therefore, spiraling taxes.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 28, 2017, 04:23:55 pm
Yeah, I said the same thing earlier.  Businesses really need to start sharing more of the tax burden.  Middle/Upper Middle-class payroll employees are pretty much carrying this country.  It's not fair.


I have a company and also happen to be a "Middle/Upper Middle-class" employee.

So, is it unfair for me as an employee to pay tax but that is being offset, somewhat (or is it entirely?), by my corporation which somehow makes me a "fat cat?"

Or is my total tax burden a combination of myself (employee) and myself (shareholder) and myself (corporation)? 

That is, how angry should I be at my fat cat self for the unfairness that my employee self is suffering?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 28, 2017, 08:35:29 pm
I have a company and also happen to be a "Middle/Upper Middle-class" employee.

So, is it unfair for me as an employee to pay tax but that is being offset, somewhat (or is it entirely?), by my corporation which somehow makes me a "fat cat?"

Or is my total tax burden a combination of myself (employee) and myself (shareholder) and myself (corporation)? 

That is, how angry should I be at my fat cat self for the unfairness that my employee self is suffering?

Oh sure.  You bring yourself up as an example.  A tax accountant who probably has the perfect threshold of salary and dividends while deferring the rest of your taxes through your corporation.  That's not the general population.

In reality, if your corporate self paid  a couple more percentage points in tax, your self-employed self and all your employees would benefit from a tax cut. 

That would be more fair.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 29, 2017, 07:34:26 pm
44-42 to bring the government down.

I admit I am surprised that the GP/NDP did not try to arrange a vote of 43-42 so as to have the Speaker vote for the government.

But that probably is too clever for them. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on June 30, 2017, 10:30:32 am
CC is so out of touch.  Even to the end she is going to go out calling it "bending the rules" and scoffing "I wish Mr. Horgan and Dr. Weaver the best" with a raised eyebrow like a petulant teenager.

FPTP may favour right of centre parties, but it's not bending the rules when the left of centre parties finally get their poop together and put together a plan of action TOGETHER.

58% voted against the Liberals and only got 1 extra seat.  58%!!!  1 extra seat!!!

You wanna cry unfair, welcome to the club.  See how the rest of us have felt watching you rule in a majority without majority votes.  You think that's fair?

K, rant over.  Have a lovely Friday, board. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on June 30, 2017, 02:08:21 pm
It is perfectly fair how everything has developed.

May not be ideal, although if CC resigns and a leadership contest is held then that will provide some stability to the mathematically challenged minority.

I would have preferred the GP to have done the mathematically right thing and joined with the LP but I now look forward to the NDP destroying them.

Weaver should have voted for the financing legislation put forth by the Liberals.  You just know the LP and NDP are raising money until the legislation is brought in again (by the fall?). 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on July 01, 2017, 02:26:32 am
OMG this is sadly too real for satire.  :D

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/06/firefighters-use-jaws-life-extract-christy-clark-bc-premiership/
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on July 25, 2017, 11:08:24 pm
Here is where rubber meets road: new BC Premier John Horgan met with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau today.  While there are easy topics for Trudeau and Horgan to talk about-- aid for communities affected by BC forest fires, for example-- these guys are going to crash head-on when it comes to pipelines. They can't both win here.

Trudeau has approved pipelines.  Trudeau's progressive allie in Alberta, Rachel Notley, is heavily invested in supporting pipelines.  Horgan campaigned against pipelines. They can't all agree.  Something has to give. This will get ugly.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on July 25, 2017, 11:35:14 pm
I think Horgan was backed into a corner where he shouldn't have found himself and now he's stuck....

The twinning of the pipeline and extra traffic didn't seem like a bad compromise to most people.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on July 26, 2017, 12:19:34 am
I was listening to an industry spokesman on CBC Radio 1 this morning, and he suggested that only a small portion of people believe "no pipelines" and that a majority, in both BC and Alberta, support pipelines provided that safety and environmental objectives can be met.  I'd like to believe that's the truth, and I think that's the view that both Trudeau and Notley take as well. However I'm not convinced that Horgan, Weaver, or the bulk of their supporters agree.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on July 26, 2017, 12:55:42 pm
I don't think it's about killing pipelines per se, but killing pipelines and finding alternative methods to boost the economy.

Notley has done a pretty good job given her predicament and I don't think people give her enough credit.  She's doing what she has to do given the province she's governing, but overall she's put in effort to boost the economy with alternative energy like wind energy.

When it comes to pipelines she's the outlier, not Horgan.  Horgan is on the right track I think.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2017, 12:36:57 pm
Christie Clark is resigning. This is probably pretty good news for Liberal supporters. She did a lot of harm for the party overall.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on July 28, 2017, 05:43:11 pm
Christie Clark is resigning. This is probably pretty good news for Liberal supporters. She did a lot of harm for the party overall.

BF thinks she'll run for the Conservatives next election.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on July 28, 2017, 10:23:59 pm
Ha, that would be very fitting.  Initially I thought she wouldn't want to play for a losing team, but hey maybe that would be a good revival for the party.

Interesting theory! 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on July 30, 2017, 02:14:50 pm
Christie Clark is resigning. This is probably pretty good news for Liberal supporters. She did a lot of harm for the party overall.

I'm don't agree... I think it was the party as a whole that people got tired of, not Christie in particular. I think she won them an election they would have lost without her in 2013.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on July 30, 2017, 05:09:51 pm
I'm glad she is gone and hope that someone good can come along to replace her.

My visa card was hacked so I was issued a new one right about the time it came out that Crusty was getting paid from the Party itself.

So, I did not bother to contact them to renew my monthly tax deductible donation.  But glad I'm a member so I get to help select the next leader.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on July 30, 2017, 05:15:03 pm
Saw John Horgan last night in the flesh.

Wife got into the Sooke Fine Arts show for the first time so we decided to go to the event.

And there he was - he attends this thing each year but being Premier and all it was unexpected that he actually showed up.

Funny guy, along with the President of the Sooke FA Show, who had a pretty good comedy routine going.

At any rate, the security for him was low key which is good - civilization in our own backyard.

He is a big supporter of the arts which is good.

Nevertheless, neither my wife nor I would vote for the guy. 

My wife actually clapped for him less than I did. 

I think her blonde hair and blue eyes make her further to the right than....

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on July 30, 2017, 08:34:16 pm
Bet JT gives her a cushy high  commisioner job in some nice expensive city.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on July 30, 2017, 10:12:45 pm
I'm don't agree... I think it was the party as a whole that people got tired of, not Christie in particular. I think she won them an election they would have lost without her in 2013.

 -k

No doubt Liberal fatigue played a role, and I can't really agree or disagree with your hypothetical scenarios, but just going by my personal experiences, I found a lot of people who typically support the Liberal party didn't support her and would've preferred to see a new leader.  Our friend msj here is one example from what he said on this thread and Derek 2.0 voiced similar sentiments on MLW.  IRL, my husband was one, as were several friends and some business associates. 

She wasn't particularly amiable character to many. 

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: cybercoma on August 02, 2017, 01:44:49 pm
Bet JT gives her a cushy high  commisioner job in some nice expensive city.
Why would he do that? The BC Liberals are a conservative party.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on August 02, 2017, 11:54:56 pm
I've heard it mention that she has personal connections with the national Liberals.   Ultimately the national Liberals are almost as fond of big biz as Christy is... they're really not all that ideologically different.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on August 04, 2017, 02:58:31 pm
Bwhahahahahha:

So Mr. Andrew Weaver is at Horgan and the NDP for holding a "pay-for-access" golf event to rise political contributions.

What's wrong with $500 to play golf at Bear Mountain with the Premier? 

And if it is paid for by corporations or unions then so be it.

It's all fine under the existing rules. 

The NDP are doing a fine job - they are raising money getting ready for an election that they now control the timing on (thanks to Christy bowing out).

Weaver should have insisted on passing, immediately, the legislation to alter the political contribution rules as to prevent the NDP from raising huge sums of money like this as the NDP are going to use the funds to beat both the Liberals and the Greens in the next election.

I hope they do use it to beat the Greens because they seriously need a better leader. This guy just ain't politically savvy at all.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on August 05, 2017, 01:04:49 am
Who is "Mr. Dream Weaver"?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on August 05, 2017, 08:20:03 am
http://www.metrolyrics.com/dream-weaver-lyrics-gary-wright.html

The lyrics suit an idealist professor temperament, non?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JMT on August 05, 2017, 02:45:57 pm
Who is "Mr. Dream Weaver"?

I don't know, but he won't be mentioned here again.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: guest4 on August 26, 2017, 11:26:22 am
Tolls eliminated, but Andrew Weaver thinks people who can afford to drive can afford to help pay for education/health care and other social programs.
http://www.andrewweavermla.ca/2017/08/25/removing-port-mann-golden-ears-bridge-tolls-fiscally-reckless/

I think lowering the tolls and applying them to all bridges would be a fair solution.  Extra revenue, some discouragement of traffic and no one region is penalized for living across a river.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on August 26, 2017, 02:25:23 pm
I agree that reducing the fee and applying it to all the bridges makes the most sense.  I thought that's the direction they would take eventually and that this announcement is just in the interim until all the plans go in place, but when I heard Weaver's statement yesterday, it did seem like this is a permanent solution.

It's a bummer, but between status quo and singling out ONE bridge, I still back the idea.  I think it's so unfair and ridiculous and typical of the Liberals to do.

I do hope though that Weaver influences the NDP in eventually going the route of a small 50cent/$1 for all bridges.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on August 26, 2017, 10:04:16 pm
I have no problem with tolls if the $$$ are used to build rapid transit.  Charge everyone on the Malahat $3 each way....   there's $180,000 per day right there.  (I think I heard 60,000 cars per day)

$66Mil per year.   Build rapid transit along the Island.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 02:08:30 am
Digging this thread up, it looks like we may need it.

Horgan is doing great in the polls (swoon) and the word is he's getting ready to call an election in the next couple of weeks. 

There's been a number of new announcements made about transit and healthcare that appear to be vote buying/campaign promises.  I am also seeing a lot of facebook ads for MLA candidates in the ridings around me.

Fin Donnelly is even coming back for a second pension, ha!

It's definitely starting to look like they're ready to pull the plug.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 08:46:07 am
Digging this thread up, it looks like we may need it.

Horgan is doing great in the polls (swoon) and the word is he's getting ready to call an election in the next couple of weeks. 

There's been a number of new announcements made about transit and healthcare that appear to be vote buying/campaign promises.  I am also seeing a lot of facebook ads for MLA candidates in the ridings around me.

Fin Donnelly is even coming back for a second pension, ha!

It's definitely starting to look like they're ready to pull the plug.

There is absolutely no need for an election provincial or federal, both have been governing like majorities.  Pure political opportunism. I hate it when politicians do that. Horgan was supposed to be a champion of proportional representation, apparently not if he will pull an election during a pandemic just because he thinks he can get a majority.

And Trudeau, we know how fast he ditched electoral reform as soon as he got a majority.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 10:36:37 pm
I don't see what PR has to do with it.  He put the referendum on it and the NDP/Greens do have a majority so of course he's governing like it. 

It's actually a brilliant move politically.  If he gets his majority without Greens, it serves the party well.
 
But calling an election during a pandemic isn't good optics IMO.  I hope they don't, but the chances seem slim at this point.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 10:51:14 pm
I don't see what PR has to do with it.  He put the referendum on it and the NDP/Greens do have a majority so of course he's governing like it. 

It's actually a brilliant move politically.  If he gets his majority without Greens, it serves the party well.
 
But calling an election during a pandemic isn't good optics IMO.  I hope they don't, but the chances seem slim at this point.

PR would be more  likely to result in minority governments, just like we have now.

It may be a brilliant move politically but what is in it for us? Who cares if it serves the party, they are there for us, not for themselves.

It's no wonder people are so cynical about politicians when they see them using the system for their own advantage.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 11:02:23 pm
I'm totally disillusioned by all politics and I don't agree with calling an election, but to play devil's advocate: maybe he thinks NDP has the best platforms and he can serve us better if he didn't have to pander to another party in order to pass legislation. 

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 11:21:17 pm
I'm totally disillusioned by all politics and I don't agree with calling an election, but to play devil's advocate: maybe he thinks NDP has the best platforms and he can serve us better if he didn't have to pander to another party in order to pass legislation.

He has been governing like a majority for three years, nothing has changed.
Having to deal with duly elected representatives isn't pandering.
The people elected a minority government John, deal with it.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 18, 2020, 01:16:51 pm
He has been governing like a majority for three years, nothing has changed.
Having to deal with duly elected representatives isn't pandering.
The people elected a minority government John, deal with it.

You pretty much are addressing his point.  People elected a minority government 3 years ago and he's had to work with the Greens to make things work. 

He's now in a position where he could potentially have a true NDP majority and he (may be) willing to make the gamble.

Hopefully not, but I can see why it'd be worth it to him.  Who knows what goes on behinds the scenes with the Greens.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on September 18, 2020, 01:45:05 pm
It will be annoying if we have to contend with both a provincial and federal election.

That said, I'd like to see NDP in for a other term.

I'd like to not see the Liberals in again for another term, but not sure the answer are the Conservatives, unless they can ease up on the economic fear-mongering.  I generally support social programs that would allow people food/shelter security and avoid the heartbreak of seniors and disabled reduced to begging on the street, but I'm not entirely comfortable that governments can provide all the social programs that various groups would like, unless they raise taxes on the wealthy, or at least make them pay taxes, and no government seems keen to do that. 

I'm no economic scholar of course, but didn't the US enjoy its strongest growth and middle class when taxes were high on rich people, and universities were free or close to it?  Norwegian countries that have strong social programs also seem to have good economies, so I don't understand the idea that lower taxes equal higher standard of living.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 18, 2020, 01:54:04 pm
I don't think the Greens matter that much, the Liberals and Greens aren't going to force an election unless Horgan pulls out some kind of poison pill legislation they just can't accept.

I don't think minority governments should be held to fixed election dates because it gives complete control of early election timing to the opposition parties, but I think it should be made very difficult for early elections to be called by sitting governments. The electorate gave them a minority and it is their job to do their best to make it work.

I can see that it might be worth it to him as well but it isn't supposed to be about him.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 09:05:11 pm
I'm fine with the way politics are unfolding in Canada under the weight of COVID, things seem more unified and reasonable than at anytime I can recall.  Perhaps the horror show to the south is responsible given how it seems to provide a graphic illustration of what won't work - rabid partisanship in particular.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 19, 2020, 11:58:58 am
I'm fine with the way politics are unfolding in Canada under the weight of COVID, things seem more unified and reasonable than at anytime I can recall.  Perhaps the horror show to the south is responsible given how it seems to provide a graphic illustration of what won't work - rabid partisanship in particular.

I agree. Do you really want to take a chance on stoking that partisanship by forcing an election most people don't want.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: waldo on September 21, 2020, 12:58:18 pm
Quote from: BC Premier John Horgan
pandemic... spandemic (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-horgan-premier-snap-election-1.5732601)
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 21, 2020, 01:16:36 pm
Well, Horgan has just shown he's no different from any other opportunist politician.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 21, 2020, 06:50:42 pm
Well, Horgan has just shown he's no different from any other opportunist politician.

It certainly won’t make me change my vote, but it’s not a great plan...
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 21, 2020, 07:41:04 pm
It certainly won’t make me change my vote, but it’s not a great plan...

I'll vote however I think might help result in another minority. I don't care which party it is.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 21, 2020, 09:10:52 pm
I'll vote however I think might help result in another minority. I don't care which party it is.

This province can’t have the Liberals (conservatives) back in at any cost.   I’ll vote for whomever can beat the Liberal candidate in my riding.  Likely NDP. 

Plus, we have had good governance under the NDP for the last 3 years. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 21, 2020, 11:03:26 pm
This province can’t have the Liberals (conservatives) back in at any cost.   I’ll vote for whomever can beat the Liberal candidate in my riding.  Likely NDP. 

Plus, we have had good governance under the NDP for the last 3 years.

I'm really not happy about being put in this position but I'll end up doing the same.  I just hope this doesn't backfire and we end up with a Liberal government. 

Ugh.  >:(
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on September 22, 2020, 12:15:03 am
I have been pretty happy with the Horgan government.  I disagree with a few of the things they've done, but on balance I think they've done a good job.   I won't be sorry to see him get a majority.  And I won't be sorry to see the Greens sent back to the sidelines.

Hot take: the pandemic is with us until at least 2022, and we can't just cancel everything until then.  I'm confident that the election can be carried out with minimal risk at polling stations.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: MH on September 22, 2020, 11:36:02 am
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL29wcG9wb2QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/YzRjZGVkYWItMzA5NC00YTg2LTlmN2YtYWMzYTAwZTFkNGM5?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjAn77SmP3rAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

Green Party leader on OPPO this week says that the PC Premier misplayed his advantage. 

I'm sure Justin Trudeau (PM) will be watching closely as to how this gambit plays out.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 12:40:56 pm
I have been pretty happy with the Horgan government.  I disagree with a few of the things they've done, but on balance I think they've done a good job.   I won't be sorry to see him get a majority.  And I won't be sorry to see the Greens sent back to the sidelines.

Hot take: the pandemic is with us until at least 2022, and we can't just cancel everything until then.  I'm confident that the election can be carried out with minimal risk at polling stations.

 -k

So if the pandemic is with us now and will still be with us next year, what's the difference other than the possibility that Horgan's polls might be lower next year?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 12:41:55 pm
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL29wcG9wb2QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/YzRjZGVkYWItMzA5NC00YTg2LTlmN2YtYWMzYTAwZTFkNGM5?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjAn77SmP3rAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

Green Party leader on OPPO this week says that the PC Premier misplayed his advantage. 

I'm sure Justin Trudeau (PM) will be watching closely as to how this gambit plays out.

Agreements don't mean much to politicians if they can see an advantage to not keeping one.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 01:18:55 pm
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL29wcG9wb2QubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/YzRjZGVkYWItMzA5NC00YTg2LTlmN2YtYWMzYTAwZTFkNGM5?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjAn77SmP3rAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

Green Party leader on OPPO this week says that the PC Premier misplayed his advantage. 

I'm sure Justin Trudeau (PM) will be watching closely as to how this gambit plays out.

This is what bothers me most.  I really hope this election doesn't set us back with Liberals gaining an advantage.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 01:38:20 pm
BTW, if anyone wants to vote by mail, you can request a package below:

https://eregister.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/ovr/welcome.aspx?fbclid=IwAR11V7zeDEVA2-jVQFHZRVbezlIpXVCPPtV9xjjcYVPMXJaSh0yXTWX9q88#
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 02:18:28 pm
For anyone planning on voting strategically, polling results to follow are below:

https://338canada.com/bc/districts.htm

Interestingly, my NDP MLA barely beat the Liberal incumbent in 2017 (he won by 1500 votes) but now it's a safe NDP riding. 

He's been great actually.  I've emailed his office twice and got responses immediately and he's been very involved with the local community.  I'm happy to see he's safe.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 04:40:55 pm
That poll was released Sept 2 before there was talk of an election this fall. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 05:51:39 pm
I know, I saw the date on it myself but with that much of a lead, I doubt he'll lose.  Plus, he really has been great.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 07:14:15 pm
Anyone here think Horgan would have called an election if the polls had been close?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 22, 2020, 10:05:06 pm
Anyone here think Horgan would have called an election if the polls had been close?

Ummm....   why would he be that dumb?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 10:07:11 pm
Ummm....   why would he be that dumb?
So you agree, this election has nothing to do with what is best for the province.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 10:15:04 pm
So you agree, this election has nothing to do with what is best for the province.

I wouldn't say it's either or.  Maybe he genuinely believes NDP majority is what's best for the province. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 22, 2020, 10:20:14 pm
I wouldn't say it's either or.  Maybe he genuinely believes NDP majority is what's best for the province.

Every party leader thinks a majority for them is the best thing.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 22, 2020, 10:28:48 pm
Every party leader thinks a majority for them is the best thing.

Exactly.  It's politics, not necessarily ego.  They have strategists who work on these types on things, it's not just Horgan who decides to go rogue.

No doubt most parties would do it too given the same circumstances.  His approval ratings have been enviable. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 23, 2020, 12:21:01 am
Exactly.  It's politics, not necessarily ego.  They have strategists who work on these types on things, it's not just Horgan who decides to go rogue.

No doubt most parties would do it too given the same circumstances.  His approval ratings have been enviable.

He had a signed deal with the Greens. He broke it.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2020, 08:16:37 pm
So far, 120,000 people have requested mail in ballots which won't even be counted until three weeks after the election. Congratulations John, you have shut down government for over two months in the middle of apandemic just to advance your own interests.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 24, 2020, 08:53:10 pm
So far, 120,000 people have requested mail in ballots which won't even be counted until three weeks after the election. Congratulations John, you have shut down government for over two months in the middle of apandemic just to advance your own interests.

It doesn’t shut down government.  That’s hyperbole.  You are sounding like Taxme, Shady and clowns like that.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2020, 08:56:47 pm
It doesn’t shut down government.  That’s hyperbole.  You are sounding like Taxme, Shady and clowns like that.

You can't introduce and pass legislation if there is no Parliament. As soon as an election is called, the province is being run by civil servants until there is a new government.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 24, 2020, 10:07:13 pm
You can't introduce and pass legislation if there is no Parliament. As soon as an election is called, the province is being run by civil servants until there is a new government.

So you’re saying it doesn’t “shut down”...  just no legislation is passed...   like during the summer break, for instance.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2020, 10:25:26 pm
So you’re saying it doesn’t “shut down”...  just no legislation is passed...   like during the summer break, for instance.

No doubt Horgan and his ministers will be intensely concentrating on governing as they are trying to get re elected.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 24, 2020, 11:43:41 pm
They have elections in BC still?  I thought they went full communist dictatorship years back.  Zing!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on September 25, 2020, 01:54:11 am
You can't introduce and pass legislation if there is no Parliament.
Reminds me of that tired old joke you sometimes hear at safety meetings, 'if nothing moves nobody gets hurt'.

Quote
As soon as an election is called, the province is being run by civil servants until there is a new government.
I'd probably nominate Bonnie Henry.

It seems a little haywire and I'd be happy sticking with the seemingly well functioning coalition we have now. At least we're not voters in the US stuck between a really stupid place and...well maybe it's more stuck in a really stupid place I should say.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2020, 09:31:52 am
Reminds me of that tired old joke you sometimes hear at safety meetings, 'if nothing moves nobody gets hurt'.
I'd probably nominate Bonnie Henry.

It seems a little haywire and I'd be happy sticking with the seemingly well functioning coalition we have now. At least we're not voters in the US stuck between a really stupid place and...well maybe it's more stuck in a really stupid place I should say.

Careful, Dr. Bonnie was hired by a Liberal government.

I like minorities, they are easier to keep honest.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 26, 2020, 09:16:41 am
From the volume of NDP adds hitting TV it’s pretty obvious Horgan has been planning this election for some time.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on September 26, 2020, 12:47:47 pm
No cable tv here, so I guess I'm missing all those ads, shucks.  :)
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 26, 2020, 07:47:10 pm
No cable tv here, so I guess I'm missing all those ads, shucks.  :)

Lucky you.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 27, 2020, 01:24:59 am
That poll was released Sept 2 before there was talk of an election this fall. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.

On September 23 NDP was projected to take 56 seats (down from the 60 Sep 3).  Last I looked it was 50.  I hope to f-ing gawd, this doesn't go sideways because there will not be another coalition government with the Greens. 

They Liberals already started talking about scrapping the speculation tax and I'm sure the empty home tax would soon be on the chopping block too.  For almost 4 years we had stagnated prices.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 27, 2020, 09:16:02 am
On September 23 NDP was projected to take 56 seats (down from the 60 Sep 3).  Last I looked it was 50.  I hope to f-ing gawd, this doesn't go sideways because there will not be another coalition government with the Greens. 

They Liberals already started talking about scrapping the speculation tax and I'm sure the empty home tax would soon be on the chopping block too.  For almost 4 years we had stagnated prices.

If it does, it will be self inflicted.

The Liberals are talking about a flipping tax where properties are resold before they are even finished. I’m OK with that. I do think there are some issues with the speculation tax when it comes to second homes and recreational properties. I don’t think it should apply to full time BC residents.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 28, 2020, 09:23:39 pm
BC Libs are pledging to eliminate the PST for a year.  What a stupid political and financial policy.  They’re very desperate...   they seem to be wildly grasping at anything they can to get votes.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2020, 09:45:59 pm
BC Libs are pledging to eliminate the PST for a year.  What a stupid political and financial policy.  They’re very desperate...   they seem to be wildly grasping at anything they can to get votes.

I don't know whether I like it or not because of the way it would increase the debt.
It would be the most effective way to get the economy moving but at what cost.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 29, 2020, 02:05:53 am
I don't know whether I like it or not because of the way it would increase the debt.
It would be the most effective way to get the economy moving but at what cost.

I know sales-taxes have *some* impact on consumer spending, but is it really material enough to 'get the economy moving'? 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 29, 2020, 02:07:29 am
BC Libs are pledging to eliminate the PST for a year.  What a stupid political and financial policy.  They’re very desperate...   they seem to be wildly grasping at anything they can to get votes.

Famous conservative words:  but who's gonna pay for that?!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 09:08:24 am
 :(
Famous conservative words:  but who's gonna pay for that?!
Someone always does.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 09:16:29 am
I know sales-taxes have *some* impact on consumer spending, but is it really material enough to 'get the economy moving'?


I don’t know. Sales taxes do take a bigger proportion of lower incomes and can be quite a chunk of money on larger purchases.

From a political point of view, Horgan’s getting rid of bridge tolls and MSP payments were a definite factor in getting him elected.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 12:26:39 pm


I don’t know. Sales taxes do take a bigger proportion of lower incomes and can be quite a chunk of money on larger purchases.

From a political point of view, Horgan’s getting rid of bridge tolls and MSP payments were a definite factor in getting him elected.

I think instead of eliminating 7billion from the provincial coffers with a tax cut, they may have been smarter to propose an actual $7 billion plan to do something about the downturn in the economy....   infrastructure?  Parks?  Small business loans?  Increase healthcare spending to combat future pandemics?   

Nothing.  We get a tax break and the province goes further in the red for....  nothing....  what a plan!

The fact that the NDP is restoring BC Ferries, ICBC and B.C. Hydro after years of being raided for their money and driving them into a huge hole as well as running balanced budgets up until COVID tells me all I need to know about the BC Libs’ (conservatives] fiscal competency vs the government we have now.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 01:02:03 pm
Quote
Today, in what is arguably the most cynical, most dishonest, and most outright dumb all-time acts of desperate vote-buying, Wilkinson has vowed to scrap B.C.’s seven percent provincial sales for a year and then cut it to three per cent the next year.

“When they go low, we go lower,” might as well be his motto, in more ways than one.

It shows that Wilkinson’s B.C. Liberals have learned absolutely nothing from their well-deserved banishment from office following former premier Christy Clark’s pathetic attempt to throw her party’s “principles” out the door, in her vain effort to cling to power.

Before the COVID pandemic brought our economy to a standstill, crippling government revenues in the process, the sales tax was projected to yield $7.5 billion to provincial coffers.

It is the B.C. government’s second-largest source of funding, accounting for some 22 percent of total taxation revenues, as the budget defines them.

Deliberately losing whatever remains of that drastically reduced revenue stream wouldn’t just be grossly irresponsible; it would be insane.
https://www.straight.com/news/martyn-brown-in-bcs-election-of-duelling-blackguards-andrew-wilkinson-is-worst


Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 01:27:35 pm
I think instead of eliminating 7billion from the provincial coffers with a tax cut, they may have been smarter to propose an actual $7 billion plan to do something about the downturn in the economy....   infrastructure?  Parks?  Small business loans?  Increase healthcare spending to combat future pandemics?   

Nothing.  We get a tax break and the province goes further in the red for....  nothing....  what a plan!

The fact that the NDP is restoring BC Ferries, ICBC and B.C. Hydro after years of being raided for their money and driving them into a huge hole as well as running balanced budgets up until COVID tells me all I need to know about the BC Libs’ (conservatives] fiscal competency vs the government we have now.

Everyone loves to drag out infrastructure as some kind of solution. The fact is, you aren't going to turn tens of thousands of servers and other hospitality workers into welders and other trades. I don't see how any of those other things are going to provide much of a stimulus either, even if they are worthwhile objectives on their own.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 01:45:10 pm
Everyone loves to drag out infrastructure as some kind of solution. The fact is, you aren't going to turn tens of thousands of servers and other hospitality workers into welders and other trades. I don't see how any of those other things are going to provide much of a stimulus either, even if they are worthwhile objectives on their own.

Infrastructure stimulus employs high wage welders who eat at restaurants and tip the lower paid hospitality workers.  But I didn’t offer that as a solution because I think it’s a great idea...   just a potential idea.  I probably put more thought into that post than Wilkensen did into his ‘cut the PST’ shitty idea though. 

 Cutting $7 billion from the coffers isn’t going to create any jobs.  It isn’t going to help provide more services to the increasing numbers of people/businesses who need help right now...   it’s not going to get the person making $50k but isn’t sure if they’re going to be out of work soon to buy a new car or fancy watch.  It will help the guy making $100k in a stable job to save some money on his next Tesla purchase though.  But why does that guy need help?

Edited to add:

Quote
Overall the empirical evidence is that infrastructure spending does have a stimulatory effect on Gross Domestic Product (GDP) that is larger than some other types of spending. However, its effectiveness as stimulus isn't without caveats. In practice, it can only achieve this level of effectiveness in very specific circumstances, limiting its use to certain instances.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/080816/can-infrastructure-spending-really-stimulate-economy.asp
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 02:04:51 pm
Infrastructure stimulus employs high wage welders who eat at restaurants and tip the lower paid hospitality workers.  But I didn’t offer that as a solution because I think it’s a great idea...   just a potential idea.  I probably put more thought into that post than Wilkensen did into his ‘cut the PST’ shitty idea though. 

 

I don't think trades are having any trouble getting jobs as it is. Try and get one.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 02:39:42 pm
I don't think trades are having any trouble getting jobs as it is. Try and get one.

You’re missing the point....   I’m not arguing for infrastructure stimulus.  I am saying that cutting the PST is probably the stupidest election promise since the feds promised to eliminate the GST, and then never did.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on September 29, 2020, 03:39:48 pm
:(Someone always does.

But who?  When the NDP started scrapping fees and extending benefits they also implemented a lot of new taxes (popular taxes might I add). 

The problem with the Liberals (and conservatives in general) is they just cut taxes but keep spending anyway. 

Serious question, how are the Liberals planning on recouping the lost revenue for the elimination of PST/speculation tax?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 04:01:31 pm
But who?  When the NDP started scrapping fees and extending benefits they also implemented a lot of new taxes (popular taxes might I add). 

The problem with the Liberals (and conservatives in general) is they just cut taxes but keep spending anyway. 

Serious question, how are the Liberals planning on recouping the lost revenue for the elimination of PST/speculation tax?



We all do. A good chunk of our taxes goes to pay interest on money borrowed decades ago. We get zero value from it. New taxes are only popular for those who aren't paying them.

I don't know, that's my question as well. Eliminating the sales tax for a year would be good for the economy but how big and how long is the hangover going to be?

We are already 13 billion in the hole this year.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 05:44:02 pm
A cut like that would have very minimal benefit to the economy and no benefit to those who need it.  People out of work due to COVID are not going to buy a new car because the PST is eliminated. 

Directed cuts to those who need it would be of much more benefit.  Spending $7B on stimulus would be much more effective.

A desperate attempt to buy votes.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 08:20:31 pm
A cut like that would have very minimal benefit to the economy and no benefit to those who need it.  People out of work due to COVID are not going to buy a new car because the PST is eliminated. 

Directed cuts to those who need it would be of much more benefit.  Spending $7B on stimulus would be much more effective.

A desperate attempt to buy votes.

What are you going to stimulate? I get it though, you would rather have government spend the money than people.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2020, 09:46:40 pm
What are you going to stimulate?

The economy.  But, I don’t even agree that it needs $7Billion in stimulus. But, if you’re going to take $7B out of gov’t coffers, it would be better to spend it than eliminate the PST.

Quote
I get it though, you would rather have government spend the money than people.

What a stupid thing to put words in my mouth.    ::)
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 09:52:53 pm
The economy.  But, I don’t even agree that it needs $7Billion in stimulus. But, if you’re going to take $7B out of gov’t coffers, it would be better to spend it than eliminate the PST.

What a stupid thing to put words in my mouth.    ::)

If you eliminate the the PST, the money will be spent.

Well it does seem you would rather have money spent by governments than individuals.

Personally, I think anything governments do will just be a band aid and we won't be out of the woods until there are effective treatments and vaccines. The only question is who will rack up the most debt buying band aids.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 01, 2020, 07:42:49 pm


We all do. A good chunk of our taxes goes to pay interest on money borrowed decades ago. We get zero value from it. New taxes are only popular for those who aren't paying them.

I don't know, that's my question as well. Eliminating the sales tax for a year would be good for the economy but how big and how long is the hangover going to be?

We are already 13 billion in the hole this year.

Since the vast majority of most of BC only has one home, of course, it'd be a popular tax.  And effective apparently. 

Cutting PST is an incredibly stupid idea, both economically and politically, but I'm totally cool with it because if this is the best they can come up with, it plays great for the NDP. 

Anyone who cares about PST (businesses or higher earners who are still making big purchases) was pretty much likely to vote Liberal anyway.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 01, 2020, 07:47:24 pm
Since the vast majority of most of BC only has one home, of course, it'd be a popular tax.  And effective apparently. 


Like I said, new taxes are only popular for those who don't pay them>

Quote
Cutting PST is an incredibly stupid idea, both economically and politically, but I'm totally cool with it because if this is the best they can come up with, it plays great for the NDP. 

Anyone who cares about PST (businesses or higher earners who are still making big purchases) was pretty much likely to vote Liberal anyway.

I don't know if it is a good idea either but the fact is, sales taxes take a larger chunk of lower incomes than they do higher incomes.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 01, 2020, 08:01:43 pm
I don't know if it is a good idea either but the fact is, sales taxes take a larger chunk of lower incomes than they do higher incomes.

Yes, I agree it's a regressive tax but from a consumer behavior point of view, it's better to have something tangible in your pocket than to save money on a purchase. 

Even if lower income individuals would benefit more, that's not the way it would be perceived.  Like Squid said, giving people that money would've gone further in both buying votes and in stimulating the economy.

I really don't understand what they were thinking.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 01, 2020, 08:52:42 pm
Yes, I agree it's a regressive tax but from a consumer behavior point of view, it's better to have something tangible in your pocket than to save money on a purchase. 

Even if lower income individuals would benefit more, that's not the way it would be perceived.  Like Squid said, giving people that money would've gone further in both buying votes and in stimulating the economy.

I really don't understand what they were thinking.

The campaign is just starting and no one has put out a platform including the NDP. Which is surprising seeing as they called the election. I think the platform is just, don't ask questions, just give me a majority.

The buying of votes has just begun.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on October 05, 2020, 09:33:02 pm
Voted by mail today.

Have never voted as progressive as I have done today.

Figure I won’t regret a Horgan government any more than I have a Campbell and Christy Clark government so why not?

Anyone else think a BC election during a time of complete incompetence from the Trump/Scheer/O’Toole/Kenney/Wilkinson/Ford right is nothing but political gravy for the NDP? 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 01:41:54 pm
Voted by mail today.

Have never voted as progressive as I have done today.

Figure I won’t regret a Horgan government any more than I have a Campbell and Christy Clark government so why not?

Anyone else think a BC election during a time of complete incompetence from the Trump/Scheer/O’Toole/Kenney/Wilkinson/Ford right is nothing but political gravy for the NDP?

I think that Bonny Henry's performance and it being so appropriate could win the election by itself. I will be hugely surprised and disappointed if B.C. turns right. It would be a statement that B.C. has enough crazies who sympathize with America's madman.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 06, 2020, 01:54:53 pm
I think that Bonny Henry's performance and it being so appropriate could win the election by itself. I will be hugely surprised and disappointed if B.C. turns right. It would be a statement that B.C. has enough crazies who sympathize with America's madman.

And yet Dr Henry was originally hired by a Liberal government, not the NDP.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 02:13:05 pm
And yet Dr Henry was originally hired by a Liberal government, not the NDP.

What's your point Wilbur?
Fwiw, I'm either NDP or Liberal because I vote for the candidate that's about to win. In my riding it appears to be the NDP shill. Job #1 is keeping the Conservatives out of our lives.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 06, 2020, 02:31:26 pm
What's your point Wilbur?
Fwiw, I'm either NDP or Liberal because I vote for the candidate that's about to win. In my riding it appears to be the NDP shill. Job #1 is keeping the Conservatives out of our lives.

My point is, Dr Henry would  be doing the same thing regardless of which party is in power.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on October 06, 2020, 02:41:03 pm
Voted by mail today.

Have never voted as progressive as I have done today.

Figure I won’t regret a Horgan government any more than I have a Campbell and Christy Clark government so why not?

Anyone else think a BC election during a time of complete incompetence from the Trump/Scheer/O’Toole/Kenney/Wilkinson/Ford right is nothing but political gravy for the NDP?

For me it's the extreme ideas held by some right wingers that make much less likely to vote conservative.  I know this group doesn't represent all conservatives and not even the majority, but their influence on the rhetoric of right wing politicians seems outsized, even if they probably wouldn't differ much from a left-wing government. 

Also the idea of "tax cuts" solving virtually every problem seems to be the standard for conservative politicians.  I don't live seeing how much I pay in taxes every year, but tax cuts aren't a solution to that.  Fewer perks for politicians/rich people and rich corporations is a better solution, in my opinion.   
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 06, 2020, 03:10:07 pm
I think that Bonny Henry's performance and it being so appropriate could win the election by itself. I will be hugely surprised and disappointed if B.C. turns right. It would be a statement that B.C. has enough crazies who sympathize with America's madman.

No, it wouldn’t mean that at all.   For all their serious faults, the BC Liberals are not Trump. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 03:17:55 pm
My point is, Dr Henry would  be doing the same thing regardless of which party is in power.

And again wilbur, what's your point.

I can add one of my points to that though. She would never be caught doing the same for the Conservatives, and neither would the Conservatives allow it!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 06, 2020, 03:38:13 pm
And again wilbur, what's your point.

I can add one of my points to that though. She would never be caught doing the same for the Conservatives, and neither would the Conservatives allow it!

Are you actually from BC?   The Conservative Party is barely a blip in the polls.  The conservatives in BC are in the BC Liberal Party. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 05:38:13 pm
Are you actually from BC?   The Conservative Party is barely a blip in the polls.  The conservatives in BC are in the BC Liberal Party.

Yes I'm in B.C. and on Vancouver Island. My mind was thinking federal, not So Cred or phony liberal.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 06, 2020, 07:08:17 pm
And again wilbur, what's your point.

I can add one of my points to that though. She would never be caught doing the same for the Conservatives, and neither would the Conservatives allow it!


She is the public health officer, what she says goes. The only option would be to fire her, which would be really stupid from a political point of view.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 07, 2020, 01:06:21 pm

She is the public health officer, what she says goes. The only option would be to fire her, which would be really stupid from a political point of view.

She's put on a stellar performance and that is hugely beneficial to her party in this time of Covid-19 crisis. Perhaps the biggest consideration of all to voters right now.

I'm sure the NDP knows that and will keep her star burning brightly!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 08, 2020, 12:31:47 am
My point is, Dr Henry would  be doing the same thing regardless of which party is in power.
Assuming that party in power let her.  Horgan can probably attribute a lot of good political will to having the sense to give Dr Henry the sway she's had.  A lot of other politicians might feel threatened by her influence and make her feel like moving on, which would be a real loss.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 08, 2020, 06:33:54 pm
Assuming that party in power let her.  Horgan can probably attribute a lot of good political will to having the sense to give Dr Henry the sway she's had.  A lot of other politicians might feel threatened by her influence and make her feel like moving on, which would be a real loss.

I don't think that's true in this case. Conservative governments in Alberta and Ontario haven't got in the way of their public health officers when it comes to Covid. There is no objective reason to think they would in BC, only partisan reasons.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: msj on October 09, 2020, 08:26:16 am
I don't think that's true in this case. Conservative governments in Alberta and Ontario haven't got in the way of their public health officers when it comes to Covid. There is no objective reason to think they would in BC, only partisan reasons.

I doubt BC has had or, under Dr Henry and a NDP government, will have a headline like this:

https://www.cp24.com/news/premier-ford-s-cabinet-meeting-today-to-discuss-more-public-health-recommendations-1.5139205

I think there is a reason why strip clubs were spreading Covid so effectively in ON and it was not because of public health officials.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 09, 2020, 09:21:09 am
I doubt BC has had or, under Dr Henry and a NDP government, will have a headline like this:

https://www.cp24.com/news/premier-ford-s-cabinet-meeting-today-to-discuss-more-public-health-recommendations-1.5139205

I think there is a reason why strip clubs were spreading Covid so effectively in ON and it was not because of public health officials.

Sure they did.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/07/09/b-c-not-considering-closing-nightclubs-strip-clubs-after-positive-covid-19-cases-health-minister/

Night clubs an strip clubs have also been a source of spread in BC.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 09, 2020, 01:31:10 pm
I don't think that's true in this case. Conservative governments in Alberta and Ontario haven't got in the way of their public health officers when it comes to Covid. There is no objective reason to think they would in BC, only partisan reasons.
I think the reason for that is the shit-show that US conservatives have put on display. Our conservative politicians seem to have a better sense of the danger of not subscribing to science and expert advice and that Canadians are not in the mood for any overt divisiveness according to the standard tenets of right/left politicization and I applaud them for that.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 09, 2020, 03:20:27 pm
I think the reason for that is the shit-show that US conservatives have put on display. Our conservative politicians seem to have a better sense of the danger of not subscribing to science and expert advice and that Canadians are not in the mood for any overt divisiveness according to the standard tenets of right/left politicization and I applaud them for that.

I will suggest that our Conservatives are completely and totally onboard with the Trump agenda but are afraid to come out with it. I'm thinking about stopping abortion completely and destroying our universal health care. On other minor issues the Conservatives don't even bother to pretend.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 09, 2020, 07:07:17 pm
I will suggest that our Conservatives are completely and totally onboard with the Trump agenda but are afraid to come out with it.

Please provide evidence of this.  From what I have seen, the evidence points in the opposite direction for the most part.  (88% of BC’ers would vote from Biden)
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 10, 2020, 11:15:02 am
Please provide evidence of this.  From what I have seen, the evidence points in the opposite direction for the most part.  (88% of BC’ers would vote from Biden)

True squid, and that speaks loudly for B.C. voters. The Conservative faction would be as low as 12% now because Trump represents their ideals.

What is in the Conservative agenda that still stands intact in Canada. Do they even have a position on health care? Abortion?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on October 10, 2020, 11:31:15 am
What is in the Conservative agenda that still stands intact in Canada. Do they even have a position on health care? Abortion?

The desire to pay lower taxes and have less governmental oversight.  I think that resonates with a lot of people.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 10, 2020, 12:02:49 pm
The desire to pay lower taxes and have less governmental oversight.  I think that resonates with a lot of people.

One way of looking at it is health care is a provincial responsibility. Decreasing federal taxes gives provinces more room to tax. The only real issue is having enough money for transfers that enable an equal level of care for all provinces.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 10, 2020, 12:46:19 pm
One way of looking at it is health care is a provincial responsibility. Decreasing federal taxes gives provinces more room to tax. The only real issue is having enough money for transfers that enable an equal level of care for all provinces.

The desire to pay lower taxes is not the property of the Conservatives alone. It's pretty well universal with some qualifications. For instance, we shouldn't just demand to be able to stop paying taxes without due considerations. If the decision to eliminate a tax is rational then all political persuasions will be on board with that decision.

Having said that, there's little doubt that one's political priorities will be what causes an individual's decision on any specific taxation. That's where the debate on 'socially responsible' government begins. Can you suggest some tax that should be eliminated according to a Conservative's agenda?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 10, 2020, 12:50:54 pm
The desire to pay lower taxes and have less governmental oversight.  I think that resonates with a lot of people.

I've already covered the 'desire to pay lower taxes' but you could expand on 'less government oversight'?

Otherwise it just comes across as a hot button buzz phrase.

Canadians want good socially responsible government and so the Conservatives are going to have to spell out what they have to offer. You haven't done that yet.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 10, 2020, 01:55:49 pm
The desire to pay lower taxes is not the property of the Conservatives alone. It's pretty well universal with some qualifications. For instance, we shouldn't just demand to be able to stop paying taxes without due considerations. If the decision to eliminate a tax is rational then all political persuasions will be on board with that decision.

Having said that, there's little doubt that one's political priorities will be what causes an individual's decision on any specific taxation. That's where the debate on 'socially responsible' government begins. Can you suggest some tax that should be eliminated according to a Conservative's agenda?

I don't speak for a Conservative agenda. Personally I am more concerned about spending than taxes right now. The Bank of Canada is buying back over 200 billion of Canada's debt this year.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on October 12, 2020, 01:50:01 pm
I've already covered the 'desire to pay lower taxes' but you could expand on 'less government oversight'?

Otherwise it just comes across as a hot button buzz phrase.

Canadians want good socially responsible government and so the Conservatives are going to have to spell out what they have to offer. You haven't done that yet.

Yes, I think it is a hot-button phrase most of the time.  On the other hand, I work in Government and I get calls and emails from people who think the government is too involved in our daily life, everything is a tax grab, etc. and I regularly read stuff from people unhappy with the government regulations, number of government workers and how much they're compensated - from health care workers to teachers.

I think government could be run more efficiently, but that doesn't necessarily mean smaller, imo.  In the department I'm in, we are losing millions in revenue (not tax revenue) because the government does not provide the resources needed to collect the revenue.  They don't do so because "small government" means something to a certain segment of the population, so hiring more "overpaid government workers with gold-plated pensions" is not politically advantageous.   

Of course, this is a personal anecdote and I admit that I'm pretty politically naïve relative to most posters here.  It's why I post much less than I read.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 12, 2020, 03:52:08 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/thornthwaite-comments-bowinn-ma-1.5759112

Anyone following this story about Jane Thornthwaite and Bowinn Ma?  I watched the video, ready to be outraged, but I don't see anything of what she said as a dig at Ma.  She was jabbing Ralph Sultan for thinking with the wrong head.

Am I just losing my progressive cred?

ETA - in a professional setting it'd be inappropriate to make those remarks about your colleagues, agreed -- but I still see the dig at Sultan, not Ma.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: kimmy on October 12, 2020, 04:04:31 pm
I watched the video, ready to be outraged,

Yeah. I saw the headline yesterday, started watching the video, and started rolling my eyes that this was a controversy. 

Is this the result of a few decades of "gotcha" style politics?  Is it "political correctness run amok"? Are people just too fucking fragile?

I feel like there's a huge world of difference between the content of the video and the kind of gendered slurs that many female politicians face on a frequent basis. I feel like if we get up in arms over something as innocuous as this incident, it just undermines real actual sexism in politics.

 -k
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 12, 2020, 04:25:07 pm
Looked to me like it was more of a dig at Sultan as well. He is 87, seems like he is still vulnerable to an attractive woman's charm. At worst, Thornthwaite might be accused of being catty.  IMO

Ma was milking it as much as possible on this morning's news. Apparently it is a dire insult to all women and anyone one who is LGBT or gender identified.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: JuniperRose on October 12, 2020, 05:14:07 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/thornthwaite-comments-bowinn-ma-1.5759112

Anyone following this story about Jane Thornthwaite and Bowinn Ma?  I watched the video, ready to be outraged, but I don't see anything of what she said as a dig at Ma.  She was jabbing Ralph Sultan for thinking with the wrong head.

Am I just losing my progressive cred?

ETA - in a professional setting it'd be inappropriate to make those remarks about your colleagues, agreed -- but I still see the dig at Sultan, not Ma.

What I heard was Thornthwaite starting out by saying that Ma had "it" and knew how to use it  or words to that affect.  After that  her focus switched to Ralph, but that first comment implied that Wa's primary asset (?) was her body or looks, not sure. 

The whole thing sounded to me like nasty gossip and inappropriate, but also very "human" so I didn't feel particularly offended.   What human hasn't said nasty, stupid or inappropriate things?

Mostly I wondered who sent the video.  Someone on the call who has it in for Jane?  Someone who has access to the meeting recordings and NDP preference?

I'm not a Liberal party supporter, in case anyone thinks I'd be furious if an NDP politician was the culprit.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 12, 2020, 06:02:49 pm
What I heard was Thornthwaite starting out by saying that Ma had "it" and knew how to use it  or words to that affect.  After that  her focus switched to Ralph, but that first comment implied that Wa's primary asset (?) was her body or looks, not sure. 


Hmmm, I just watched again and caught that.  Yeah, ok, it was a bitchy thing to say and took away from the rest of her roast which WAS about Sultan. 

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 12, 2020, 08:00:23 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/thornthwaite-comments-bowinn-ma-1.5759112

Anyone following this story about Jane Thornthwaite and Bowinn Ma?  I watched the video, ready to be outraged, but I don't see anything of what she said as a dig at Ma.  She was jabbing Ralph Sultan for thinking with the wrong head.

Am I just losing my progressive cred?

ETA - in a professional setting it'd be inappropriate to make those remarks about your colleagues, agreed -- but I still see the dig at Sultan, not Ma.

I found it in poor taste to bring Ma into this and kind of ‘slut-shame’ her...   she wasn’t part of the roast.  The attempt at a joke fell flat, or worse, was inappropriate.  But being a roast on a fellow Liberal, I found it unsurprising that an attempt at bawdy humour might go wrong.   
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 12, 2020, 09:46:47 pm
I found it in poor taste to bring Ma into this and kind of ‘slut-shame’ her...   she wasn’t part of the roast.  The attempt at a joke fell flat, or worse, was inappropriate.  But being a roast on a fellow Liberal, I found it unsurprising that an attempt at bawdy humour might go wrong.   

It was in poor taste but since when have poor taste jokes not been part of roasts? And for that matter, alcohol.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 13, 2020, 10:34:32 am
It was in poor taste but since when have poor taste jokes not been part of roasts?
When people grind the roast into chuck. Then it's more like a chimpanzee flinging crap.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 14, 2020, 01:08:46 am
Leaders' debates impressions:

I thought Andrew Wilkinson is reading from a teleprompter at the beginning but it went on like that throughout the whole debate.  What an awful persona. 

Sonia Furstenau is impressive but she needs voice coaching.  This is not a dig at her being a woman, many men in high power positions take voice coaching too.  Nevertheless, she should be polling second place instead of Wilkinson.

Horgan is prepared with all his talking points and comes across convincingly.  He's doing better than I thought he would.

After the Trump/Biden debate it's really nice to see level-headed civilized people talking actual policies instead of personal attacks.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 14, 2020, 05:44:11 pm
I thing a new NDP Green coalition with a Premier Furstenau would be hilarious.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 14, 2020, 06:48:41 pm
I thing a new NDP Green coalition with a Premier Furstenau would be hilarious.

What would make that hilarious?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 14, 2020, 06:55:32 pm
What would make that hilarious?

I meant in a good way. It might make politicians think twice in future about calling unnecessary elections.
I also think it might be worth a try, I don't like majority governments anyway and huge majorities are even worse.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 14, 2020, 08:19:51 pm
I meant in a good way. It might make politicians think twice in future about calling unnecessary elections.
I also think it might be worth a try, I don't like majority governments anyway and huge majorities are even worse.

I wouldn’t be opposed....  and it would definitely be karmic!  But Greens will be lucky to hold 3 seats.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 14, 2020, 08:42:17 pm
I wouldn’t be opposed....  and it would definitely be karmic!  But Greens will be lucky to hold 3 seats.

It's not going to happen but so far I have a much better feeling about Furstenau than I ever did about Weaver.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:29:50 pm
Could be a wipeout for the Greens. Mainly because it's most likely going to be a landslide for the NDP due to the rot in the rightist politics south of the border.
And also because most voters understand that the Green revolution has to come from within a socially responsible political party. It's just too bad that Trump hasn't been defeated already, as opposed to expectations of him going down in flames.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 15, 2020, 01:30:44 pm
Could be a wipeout for the Greens. Mainly because it's most likely going to be a landslide for the NDP due to the rot in the rightist politics south of the border.
And also because most voters understand that the Green revolution has to come from within a socially responsible political party. It's just too bad that Trump hasn't been defeated already, as opposed to expectations of him going down in flames.

How are the Greens not ‘socially responsible’?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:42:50 pm
How are the Greens not ‘socially responsible’?

I think they are, but I don't think they can win on a limited agenda and also fwiw, their title. So they are socially responsible on environmental issues but a wild card on everything else. The concern for the enrironment hasn't risen to the point at which it can be the only consideration.

However, I would add that it should have done so by now.

Not enough reason to wast my vote on a losing party. Anyway, that's my prediction. Would you like to make one too?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 15, 2020, 01:49:59 pm
Personally I would like to see some new blood and ideas in our political system. There really isn't much difference in the way the old actors operate.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:55:43 pm
Personally I would like to see some new blood and ideas in our political system. There really isn't much difference in the way the old actors operate.

You want to see a B.C. Liberal government but you need to invent a novel way of saying that.

So let's dance wilbur so we can see if it turns out more satisfying for you than the questions on your two-tier dreams?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 15, 2020, 02:05:04 pm
You want to see a B.C. Liberal government but you need to invent a novel way of saying that.

So let's dance wilbur so we can see if it turns out more satisfying for you than the questions on your two-tier dreams?

No I don't, I just don't want to see a majority. I voted NDP in 2017 because I really felt the Liberals needed a time out and I'm not convinced it should be over.

While I didn't agree with everything the NDP did, on balance I thought they were doing a reasonable job. I might be naive but when the subject of Horgan calling an election came up, I really didn't think he would do it. He signed an agreement, he isn't actually going to break his word. When he did, it surprised me how disappointed I was. In one day he went from being someone I had some regard for to just another self serving politician who's word is only good as long as they see it in their interest to keep it. Shit like that matters to me and i don't see why I should support it.

Have the same feeling about Trudeau. He hasn't been a bad PM but he has some serious ethical challenges. So does Horgan.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 02:24:47 pm
No I don't, I just don't want to see a majority. I voted NDP in 2017 because I really felt the Liberals needed a time out and I'm not convinced it should be over.

While I didn't agree with everything the NDP did, on balance I thought they were doing a reasonable job. I might be naive but when the subject of Horgan calling an election came up, I really didn't think he would do it. He signed an agreement, he isn't actually going to break his word. When he did, it surprised me how disappointed I was. In one day he went from being someone I had some regard for to just another self serving politician who's word is only good as long as they see it in their interest to keep it. Shit like that matters to me and i don't see why I should support it.

Have the same feeling about Trudeau. He hasn't been a bad PM but he has some serious ethical challenges. So does Horgan.

Neither Horgan or Trudeau want anything to do with you when you are the kind of person who would be pushing for a two-tier health care system. And that's not saying that I believe you ever voted NDP!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 15, 2020, 02:42:09 pm
Neither Horgan or Trudeau want anything to do with you when you are the kind of person who would be pushing for a two-tier health care system. And that's not saying that I believe you ever voted NDP!

Believe whatever you want but I'll tell you one thing.  If I give you my word I will keep it unless you release me, even if it costs me. If you give me your word and break it, I will never trust you again.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 15, 2020, 03:39:59 pm
I think they are, but I don't think they can win on a limited agenda and also fwiw, their title. So they are socially responsible on environmental issues but a wild card on everything else. The concern for the enrironment hasn't risen to the point at which it can be the only consideration.

However, I would add that it should have done so by now.

Not enough reason to wast my vote on a losing party. Anyway, that's my prediction. Would you like to make one too?

I saw your post on one of the Joe Biden or Trump threads where you said (to paraphrase) that Biden isn't left enough and America needs someone like Bernie Sanders. 

It's interesting because I see parallels between Bernie and the Greens.  Amazing ideas but preaching to a society that as a whole, isn't quite ready yet. 

Given your thoughts on Bernie I would've pegged you as someone who would not care about a 'waste your vote' within a two-party system and support an ideological leftist party.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 15, 2020, 08:35:36 pm
One BC LiberalMLA says free contraceptives is akin to eugenics.  ???

He’s now resigned.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/laurie-throness-resigns-from-b-c-liberal-party-after-comparing-free-contraception-to-eugenics-1.5763779

His riding is a very safe Liberal riding.  So what happens if he wins anyway?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 15, 2020, 08:53:26 pm
If he wins I guess he is an independent.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 15, 2020, 09:36:23 pm
If he wins I guess he is an independent.

But his ballot says “Liberal”.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 15, 2020, 10:41:07 pm
But his ballot says “Liberal”.

I don't know how it will work because they just allow a party to be listed instead of the candidate's name on mail in ballots. I think that is a big mistake. It's bad for a candidate and it is bad for a party when this happens. A vote in that riding should really be delayed until they can get it right.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 16, 2020, 12:22:55 pm
I saw your post on one of the Joe Biden or Trump threads where you said (to paraphrase) that Biden isn't left enough and America needs someone like Bernie Sanders. 

It's interesting because I see parallels between Bernie and the Greens.  Amazing ideas but preaching to a society that as a whole, isn't quite ready yet. 

Given your thoughts on Bernie I would've pegged you as someone who would not care about a 'waste your vote' within a two-party system and support an ideological leftist party.

I can agree with the parallel you are suggesting with the Greens and Bernie, although I still think their situation has become so corrupted now that it gives Bernie or Bernie copycats a better chance than the Greens in Canada.

I don't go to the polls to waste my vote so I nearly always vote for the candidate that has the best chance of beating the Conservative or in the case of B.C. politics, the Liberal.

However, I don't run around advertising my opinion because it could be destructive to parties such as the Greens and I don't want that.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 16, 2020, 12:38:47 pm
I can agree with the parallel you are suggesting with the Greens and Bernie, although I still think their situation has become so corrupted now that it gives Bernie or Bernie copycats a better chance than the Greens in Canada.

Bernie joins the Democrats when he wants any chance of winning the presidency.  He could run as an independent, but he would lose.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 24, 2020, 12:54:22 am
We're not gonna know the results until November 16thish.  Bummer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/elections-bc-how-will-ballots-be-counted-1.5774372
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 09:19:00 am
We're not gonna know the results until November 16thish.  Bummer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/elections-bc-how-will-ballots-be-counted-1.5774372

But hey, Horgan will get his majority an that’s all that counts, With the pandemic accelerating he goes AWOL for nearly two months and leaves Dr. Bonnie holding the bag. There is something wrong with being rewarded for that.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 09:33:20 am
Plus it is only going to cost us around $50 million.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 12:06:02 pm
With the pandemic accelerating he goes AWOL for nearly two months and leaves Dr. Bonnie holding the bag. There is something wrong with being rewarded for that.
Given the example of so many politicians doing the opposite in the world I'm wondering where the real downside is here. I'll take experts over politicians 7 day a week and twice on Sunday thanks. Horgan didn't need to call an election and I'm also put off by Horgan's opportunism and like a good number of other voters I'm happier when politicians have to cooperate as opposed to having absolute power. That said I voted for our NDP representative because I've worked with and known her for many years.  She's also a scientist so...
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 12:23:28 pm
Given the example of so many politicians doing the opposite in the world I'm wondering where the real downside is here. I'll take experts over politicians 7 day a week and twice on Sunday thanks. Horgan didn't need to call an election and I'm also put off by Horgan's opportunism and like a good number of other voters I'm happier when politicians have to cooperate as opposed to having absolute power. That said I voted for our NDP representative because I've worked with and known her for many years.  She's also a scientist so...

Henry needs the government to be there to back her up. Horgan broke his word and a signed agreement to disappear and pursue his own interests during a crisis. If that's his idea of leadership, i'm not impressed.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 12:38:20 pm
Henry needs the government to be there to back her up. Horgan broke his word and a signed agreement to disappear and pursue his own interests during a crisis. If that's his idea of leadership, i'm not impressed.
I can't think of a time I've ever said to myself 'boy do I ever need a leader to follow'.  Maybe that's why I feel like such an outlier when it comes to politics, so much of it fails to impress on too many levels perhaps.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 12:53:33 pm
I can't think of a time I've ever said to myself 'boy do I ever need a leader to follow'.  Maybe that's why I feel like such an outlier when it comes to politics, so much of it fails to impress on too many levels perhaps.

So why have a parliament at all? Just hire a bunch of civil servants and leave everything to them, including making and enforcing laws.

Who does Henry turn to for needed legislation if there is no government in place to provide it and all the politicians are out campaigning?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 06:22:59 pm
So why have a parliament at all?
To authorize the experts. Parliament should be a citizen's assembly drafted from the general public the way jurists are.

A better question is why have politicians at all?
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 06:44:34 pm
To authorize the experts. Parliament should be a citizen's assembly drafted from the general public the way jurists are.

A better question is why have politicians at all?

Drafted by who using what qualifications?

How many people would be able to leave their jobs and careers for four years to serve on this assembly?

Politics and politicians are everywhere, not just in government.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 07:52:37 pm
Drafted by who using what qualifications?
I suppose they'd be drafted by whoever was in charge of administering the government department responsible for doing so.  We're basically just talking about randomly drawing names from a hat so how hard can that be? As for vetting and confirming slates of drafted representatives these could be put to a fairly conventional election at the riding level.  In fact I'd suggest drafting, vetting and electing within ridings could also be randomized so new fresh ideas and perspectives on current events were introduced into the mix. There'd still be plenty for politicians to do if there was always an impending election.

Quote
How many people would be able to leave their jobs and careers for four years to serve on this assembly?
Out of millions of potential candidates? Plenty I suspect. Are jurists hard to come by or something, are employers permitted to fire them if they accept the honour/duty?  The cases they deal with sometimes drag on for years too so...there are also provisions for jurists opting so there's no reason why that shouldn't be the case for representatives.

Quote
Politics and politicians are everywhere, not just in government.
That's fine, they'd still be free to organize themselves and influence people's thinking this way or that as always.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: MH on October 24, 2020, 09:16:19 pm
To authorize the experts. Parliament should be a citizen's assembly drafted from the general public the way jurists are.

A better question is why have politicians at all?

I haven't heard you float this idea before.  Sounds something like one I have posted so of course I love it  :D

Seriously, this is an interesting take.  I suspect something like this will happen eventually.  The system we have is rigid and top-down, not responsive.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 10:16:55 pm
But how do we have government departments, do they just make themselves out of nothing? I think what you are getting at is the end of party politics. That would be nice to see but won't hold my breath. Politics will always be with us.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 24, 2020, 11:03:18 pm
As of writing of this post a handful of ridings have been called but CBC called it for the NDP a few minutes ago and 338 called it for NDP hours ago.   :D 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 24, 2020, 11:07:16 pm
GVRD is looking very orange so far.  Woot woot.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 24, 2020, 11:09:18 pm
Aaaaand my MLA just won re-election.  Yay.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 24, 2020, 11:33:26 pm
Greens projected to take 4 seats.  I love my province. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 25, 2020, 12:19:39 am
Holy poop, West Van Sea to Sky went from Lib to Green!!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 25, 2020, 12:21:55 am
Fin Donnelly gets his second pension.  Congrats.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 25, 2020, 12:36:34 am
NDP clobbered the Libs.  Good decision.  Glad the Libs are far, far from power.

Good for the Greens.  A very strong showing.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 25, 2020, 10:22:56 am
I haven't heard you float this idea before.  Sounds something like one I have posted so of course I love it  :D

Seriously, this is an interesting take.  I suspect something like this will happen eventually.  The system we have is rigid and top-down, not responsive.
I've been floating this stuff since Advancode Michael, you were there or so I thought.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 25, 2020, 10:48:03 am
But how do we have government departments, do they just make themselves out of nothing?
We keep working with what we have and add to, discard or change them thru parliament the way we usually do.

Quote
I think what you are getting at is the end of party politics. That would be nice to see but won't hold my breath. Politics will always be with us.
So will knitting circles.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 25, 2020, 01:52:16 pm
We keep working with what we have and add to, discard or change them thru parliament the way we usually do.
So will knitting circles.

But how do you set up Cabinets etc?  Who do you hold accountable if everyone is an independent? I’m not trying to through cold water on the principle, just trying to see how it could work.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 25, 2020, 02:14:14 pm
NDP clobbered the Libs.  Good decision.  Glad the Libs are far, far from power.

Good for the Greens.  A very strong showing.

Good for the Greens but both Wilkinson and Furstenau had sour grapes speeches, it was disappointing.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the NDP does from here. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 25, 2020, 05:31:39 pm
Good for the Greens but both Wilkinson and Furstenau had sour grapes speeches, it was disappointing.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the NDP does from here.

I think it will be more of the same, which is good.

I don't really blame the Green Party leader for being pissed-off.  But that's ok...  maybe it'll put a bee in her bonnet and we'll see some feistiness. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 25, 2020, 06:48:13 pm
I think it will be more of the same, which is good.

I don't really blame the Green Party leader for being pissed-off.  But that's ok...  maybe it'll put a bee in her bonnet and we'll see some feistiness.

She now knows what Horgan's word is worth.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 25, 2020, 07:44:34 pm
She now knows what Horgan's word is worth.

The Greens threatened to topple government a few times and stood in the way of $10/day childcare and easier access to unions.  Horgan didn't want to steer through a year of uncertainty with a shaky foundation, you really need to let this go that it was all a power grab.

Also, Horgan made a deal with Andrew Weaver's Green Party.  Weaver has left the Greens and has gone on to endorse Horgan.  That alone speaks volumes.



Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 25, 2020, 07:52:52 pm
The Greens threatened to topple government a few times and stood in the way of $10/day childcare and easier access to unions.  Horgan didn't want to steer through a year of uncertainty with a shaky foundation, you really need to let this go that it was all a power grab.

Also, Horgan made a deal with Andrew Weaver's Green Party.  Weaver has left the Greens and has gone on to endorse Horgan.  That alone speaks volumes.

According to who? Horgan called the election four days after the Greens picked a new leader. Sorry but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 25, 2020, 10:52:07 pm
According to who? Horgan called the election four days after the Greens picked a new leader. Sorry but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

The timing of the Furstenau's leadership only adds to my point.  At least with Andrew Weaver Horgan knew where he stands, there was history between the two.  An idea of expectations and speculations. 

I can't really blame the NDP for wanting to have control in what will be arguably a very difficult year.  He would need to negotiate on every little policy with a party with 3 seats and a brand new leader.

I'm not John Horgan to know exactly what is in his head, but I think painting him as power-hungry isn't completely fair.  There was pragmatism in his decision to call an election and I think you're refusing to acknowledge it.

As for 'according to who'... I'm not sure which part of my post you're referring to.  I made several points. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 12:12:27 am
Do party leaders lead parties or do they act for themselves? When they sign agreements, are they signing on behalf of their parties or just themselves? Who do they represent?

Sure there was pragmatism in his decision but was it about what was better for BC or for his own position.

By who I mean who says the Greens were being obstructive other than Horgan himself and what else is he going to say? He couldn’t have been trying too hard if he called an election before Furstenau even moved in to her office. His campaign adds hit the air the day after, they were already in the can. He had been planning this since Weaver announced his resignation as leader.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 27, 2020, 12:13:23 am
His campaign adds hit the air the day after, they were already in the can. He had been planning this since Weaver announced his resignation as leader.

Well yes, because that's the moment the agreement became void.  Weaver went on to become an independent and the agreement had stated:

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:13:55 am
Well yes, because that's the moment the agreement became void.  Weaver went on to become an independent and the agreement had stated:

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

The agreement was signed on behalf of their caucuses, it wasn’t just an gentleman’s agreement between the two of them. If the leaders of two countries sign an agreement on behalf of their countries, does that agreement become invalid if one of the countries selects a new leader? Does NAFTA become invalid if Trump loses the election. When you sign something on behalf of someone else, those aren’t just empty words. Unless you are a politician.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 27, 2020, 11:08:53 am
The agreement was signed on behalf of their caucuses, it wasn’t just an gentleman’s agreement between the two of them. If the leaders of two countries sign an agreement on behalf of their countries, does that agreement become invalid if one of the countries selects a new leader? Does NAFTA become invalid if Trump loses the election. When you sign something on behalf of someone else, those aren’t just empty words. Unless you are a politician.

 NAFTA is a binding agreement.  This most certainly was not. 
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: eyeball on October 27, 2020, 11:41:43 am
But how do you set up Cabinets etc?  Who do you hold accountable if everyone is an independent? I’m not trying to through cold water on the principle, just trying to see how it could work.
Try imagining how yourself. I'd like to see how it would work too. I'm just one guy bringing one perspective to the issue of better governance. Much of that was shaped during a period of upheaval and activism stemming from the way fisheries were being managed on the west coast.   

I admit what I'm suggesting would require a vast complex and highly unlikely reshaping of our government likely involving changes to our constitution and even our confederation. I realize it's a desperate suggestion but still probably a lot easier than achieving better accountability by outlawing the secrecy or 'confidence' politicians and lobbyists bring to the public's domain.  That single simple measure would probably negate much of the need for anything else I'm suggesting. In any case I'm pretty sure we could assign a couple of undergrads aspiring to be policy wonks to the task of writing up a set of recommendations and such that would tease out the details.

In answer to your question though, a cabinet meeting is or could be little more than a bunch of department heads getting together.  Why does this have to be attended to with a bunch unnecessary politicizing? To demonstrate leadership apparently - something I just don't get, at all.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 11:45:05 am
NAFTA is a binding agreement.  This most certainly was not.

Then why have an agreement at all? Weaver  and Horgan signed on behalf of their caucus, Furstenau was a member of that caucus and it was just as binding on her as it was on Horgan and Weaver. Using Weaver's retirement as an excuse to break it is just being ingenuous.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 12:34:00 pm
The new legislature is a very positive situation in which the Greens can go along for the ride. They'll have to get it through their heads that they're not going to ever become government, but they can attain most of their agenda alongside the NDP.

 And at least they can speak as a conscience to the NDP by seconding and showing support for the NDP's more progressive members while putting down the NDP's fakers who are using the NDP for their rightist ambitions.

Is the political right in B.C. done like dinner. I think so and they are going to have seriously modify their agenda leftwards if they ever want to appeal to the people again.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 12:50:10 pm
The new legislature is a very positive situation in which the Greens can go along for the ride. They'll have to get it through their heads that they're not going to ever become government, but they can attain most of their agenda alongside the NDP.

 And at least they can speak as a conscience to the NDP by seconding and showing support for the NDP's more progressive members while putting down the NDP's fakers who are using the NDP for their rightist ambitions.

Is the political right in B.C. done like dinner. I think so and they are going to have seriously modify their agenda leftwards if they ever want to appeal to the people again.

How old are you? No one is ever done like dinner, everything is temporary. In 2001 the NDP was done like dinner with only two seats. The Liberals do need a major rebuild but their problem is more one of trust than ideology.

I think the Greens have a future. Weaver quitting was a real positive for them as he must have been a bitter man to stab is former caucus in the back and support Horgan.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 01:08:22 pm
How old are you? No one is ever done like dinner, everything is temporary. In 2001 the NDP was done like dinner with only two seats. The Liberals do need a major rebuild but their problem is more one of trust than ideology.

Don't get over excited by a term wilbur. Maybe the B.C. Libs can make a comeback and maybe they will have to try to form a more acceptable coalition of the right again, under a new label? In any case I would suggest that the right as represented by the Libs in B.C. is going to have to pull in their horns and modify their agenda so it's more acceptable to citizens of the 21st. century.
I've asked you and others many times to at least try to state the agenda of a modern rightist party and I've received nothing.

Quote
I think the Greens have a future. Weaver quitting was a real positive for them as he must have been a bitter man to stab is former caucus in the back and support Horgan.

Why would you think the Greens have a future? The green philosophy has a future obviously but the Greens are too narrow on everything else to be considered as a prospect for government.

The NDP already own the Greens' prospective agenda, and they also at least partly own the environmental issues of the Greens. Not to suggest they aren't good people with the right views on the important environmental issues, but just to say their agenda is taken and they're treading water.

As an aside, issues over fossil fuels need a nuanced approach in the 21st. century and the Greens can't be that. That makes them too far ahead of the people of the privince.
[/quote]
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 27, 2020, 01:10:46 pm
The agreement was signed on behalf of their caucuses, it wasn’t just an gentleman’s agreement between the two of them. If the leaders of two countries sign an agreement on behalf of their countries, does that agreement become invalid if one of the countries selects a new leader? Does NAFTA become invalid if Trump loses the election. When you sign something on behalf of someone else, those aren’t just empty words. Unless you are a politician.

Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 01:17:24 pm
Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.

You can equate the Greens' problems to the Reforms on the federal level. It was a bad marriage between the left and the right that was made in hell and destined to failure. After the environmental issues that all of the Greens can relate to and agree upon, they are stuck with two opposite agendas fighting against each other for power.

Not a pleasant prospect for them to admit to but they can't ever sweep it under the carpet. So which side of the political spectrum are they going to satisfy? Because the other side will quickly abandon ship!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.

What evidence do you have that the agreement wasn't being honoured other than Horgan's word? Do you really expect me to believe the Greens would have brought the government down over $10 daycare, because I don't. Do you?

I listened to an interview of Weaver by Lynda Steele I think, just before the election was called. He said he would support anything Horgan did and no matter how hard she tried to get an actual position, all he did was deflect. She tried to tie him down on several different issues and all he did was dance. I got to thinking, why is he wasting her time by even coming on and why am I wasting my time listening? The only opinion he had was that he had no opinion, on anything. I never did like the guy and now I know why.

I'd like to see the Greens become a real force in BC. After 70 years of the same old, same old, it would be refreshing.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:54:06 pm
It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 02:02:24 pm
It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.

No matter how you try to cut it, it's an endorsement of the NDP and it's conslusive just in the fact that the contrary side was decisively less. Those who stayed home could be reasonably considered to be happy with the status quo government in power.

I believe one of the biggest factors for the NDP majority win is that the heart has been ripped out of the political right because of US politics of madness!
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: BC_cheque on October 27, 2020, 02:05:23 pm
What evidence do you have that the agreement wasn't being honoured other than Horgan's word? Do you really expect me to believe the Greens would have brought the government down over $10 daycare, because I don't. Do you?

Let's assume it was all a crock.  It still doesn't change the fact that the terms of the agreement were changed when Weaver stepped down.  Stability of government and 3 Green MLA's were no longer in effect as the agreement explicitly stated.

I didn't bring up the agreement - you did.  You're trying to make it as though Horgan broke an agreement and I am just pointing out that you can say a lot of things, but the agreement is not a black/white issue.  The terms changed in January.

I'd like to see the Greens become a real force in BC. After 70 years of the same old, same old, it would be refreshing.

Me too.  Especially with Fursteneau at the helm.

It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.

Yes, that's what the losing side always says, including me when Liberals have huge seats in proportion to the popular vote.  Horgan tried to bring electoral reform, if I recall you were against it.

Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 02:11:48 pm
At least the Greens have a pretty face and that's a huge consideration in all politics.
How sad that they're still just Greens with an environment agenda but with both rightists and leftists supporting them.

It's a marriage made in hell just as the Fed Reform party was.

Not a significant problem as the NDP will pick up the environmental issue ina nuanced way that can become acceptable to the people of  the province.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 02:42:50 pm

Why would you think the Greens have a future? The green philosophy has a future obviously but the Greens are too narrow on everything else to be considered as a prospect for government.

The NDP already own the Greens' prospective agenda, and they also at least partly own the environmental issues of the Greens. Not to suggest they aren't good people with the right views on the important environmental issues, but just to say their agenda is taken and they're treading water.

As an aside, issues over fossil fuels need a nuanced approach in the 21st. century and the Greens can't be that. That makes them too far ahead of the people of the privince.

You assume the Greens can't change and adapt like other parties. That may be a mistake. It is also clear that public opinion has been moving closer to the Greens on environmental issues, not away from them.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 02:52:28 pm
You assume the Greens can't change and adapt like other parties. That may be a mistake. It is also clear that public opinion has been moving closer to the Greens on environmental issues, not away from them.

If you think they can change and adapt then you're going to have to suggest that which they could become. You most likely can't.

Future hard decisions on environmental concerns will be up for interprations of their necessity, just as much as you are indecisive on those issues. In other words, their leftist faction will do battle with their rightists.

But go ahead and tell us how you think the Greens can evolve and adapt.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:26:55 pm
Have you looked at their platform? I don't think they need to change that much, it's more the public getting used them and seeing them as a viable alternative. That's a tough thing to do in what has been basically a two party system for decades. I'd be willing to make a wager they will increase their share of the vote. They managed to keep the same number of seats and popular vote even though their new leader was only a week on the job when the election was called. People were saying the NDP would wipe them out this election. Weren't you one of them? It didn't happen.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: the_squid on October 27, 2020, 05:40:19 pm
Have you looked at their platform? I don't think they need to change that much, it's more the public getting used them and seeing them as a viable alternative. That's a tough thing to do in what has been basically a two party system for decades. I'd be willing to make a wager they will increase their share of the vote. They managed to keep the same number of seats and popular vote even though their new leader was only a week on the job when the election was called. People were saying the NDP would wipe them out this election. Weren't you one of them? It didn't happen.

If only you supported proportional representation, you would see that the Greens would have influence that reflected their votes, the NDP would be severely reduced in their power based on the votes received. 

You wouldn’t be here complaining!  You’d be celebrating the fact that the NDP weren’t “rewarded for lying”. 

Yet here we are....  NDP massive majority with 45% of the vote.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:59:50 pm
If only you supported proportional representation, you would see that the Greens would have influence that reflected their votes, the NDP would be severely reduced in their power based on the votes received. 

You wouldn’t be here complaining!  You’d be celebrating the fact that the NDP weren’t “rewarded for lying”. 

Yet here we are....  NDP massive majority with 45% of the vote.

I do support proportional representation. I voted for STV in both referendums.

If the first referendum had been held using the same rules as the last one, we would have PR now.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 06:15:25 pm
I do support proportional representation. I voted for STV in both referendums.

If the first referendum had been held using the same rules as the last one, we would have PR now.

PR is only for those who favour the party that's losing.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 12:01:50 pm
No matter how you try to cut it, it's an endorsement of the NDP and it's conslusive just in the fact that the contrary side was decisively less. Those who stayed home could be reasonably considered to be happy with the status quo government in power.

I believe one of the biggest factors for the NDP majority win is that the heart has been ripped out of the political right because of US politics of madness!

Those who stayed home were happy with the status quo which was a minority, they didn't want an election.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 12:06:57 pm
Those who stayed home were happy with the status quo which was a minority, they didn't want an election.

You would be ashamed of that remark wilbur, if you weren't such a dull character.
Title: Re: BC provincial election
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 12:11:13 pm
You would be ashamed of that remark wilbur, if you weren't such a dull character.

Why be ashamed of the obvious? Do you even know what status quo means?