Canadian Politics Today
Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Montgomery on November 29, 2020, 01:18:31 pm
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The Theory:
The Dow has reached 30,000 while Covid-19 rages throughout the US.
Food lines in America are said to be the longest in history.
Small businesses are closing their doors at a rate never seen before in the US and some other capitalist countries
More people than ever before are unemployed and depending on unemployment insurance schemes to survive.
And so, some questions to ask on what makes capitalism succeed and flourish? Why is the Stock Market so prosperous in this time of huge unemployment? Why is capitalism so prosperous while small businesses are failing so rapidly and in such large numbers?
Are small businesses essential to a democratic society?
Does it matter to a democracy if restaurants are closing their doors?
Does it matter to a democracy if furniture stores are going out of business?
Does it matter to a democracy if new or used car sales companies are going out of business?
Does it matter if children's toy stores are going out of business?
Does it matter if jewelry stores are going out of business?
Does it matter if any business that deals in non-essential items goes out of business?
Well, apparently it doesn't matter because the Dow shows the economy to be booming in America.
And so, is Covid-19 going to cause a reset for democracies in that we will survive by demanding that all countries share the wealth?
And is China far ahead of the curve already with their brand of capitalism under a communist regime?
What if we are looking forward to a very hard winter in which the Covid-19 pandemic sickness rate and death rate increases exponentially ahead of any vaccine or other method of controlling it? Food lines could get much longer in not just the US. And what if the Dow continues to grow?
Will that call for a reset of capitalism within Democracies?
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This is meant for everybody to contemplate and comment on if they choose. No spamming will be tolerated on this thread. Fair warning!
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Thank you to the 16 people who have read this thread so far, and also thank you for not replying with unnecessary spamming.
How could anybody question the fact that something is going terribly wrong in America when the Dow hits a record high as food lines hit record lengths?
We're obviously not to the point at which Americans are afraid of the death count yet, but we're probably not far from it.
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Well, apparently it doesn't matter because the Dow shows the economy to be booming in America.
Repeat After Me: The Markets Are Not the Economy (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/business/stock-market-economy-coronavirus.html)
The Stock Market Is Not the Economy (https://tcf.org/content/commentary/stock-market-not-economy/?agreed=1)
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Repeat After Me: The Markets Are Not the Economy (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/business/stock-market-economy-coronavirus.html)
The Stock Market Is Not the Economy (https://tcf.org/content/commentary/stock-market-not-economy/?agreed=1)
That's your opinion that's expressed because of biased politics waldo. So in truth, they aren't but they are. I'll explain.
America can't be said to not be a very rich country and that's echoed by the state of the stock market. But at the same time the people are doing poorly and that's not an indication of a failing economy. You know that's because of greed in the failed American way. They keep telling the suckers that they can be the president too if they just work harder!
And so America's economy is strong enough at any particular time to support all the people in relative wealth, compared to the rest of the world.
In the people's republic of China, I think you would be closer to being right. What their economy does, so goes the fortunes of the people.
Thank you for your opinion on the topic, even though it skirts the subject somewhat. Much better than the spammers who don't seem to have much of a clue.
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kinda fun to tweek away at such a feeble/obvious attempt at arrogance.
Yes wilbur, more or less correct. I want to elevate the level of debate on this board and judging by the traffic on this topic, as well as the visits by others who don't post, it's starting to work.
Would you like to be a part of it or would you choose to just be one of the spammers? Suits me either way wilbur, but I think you have some ability that you've been hiding.
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"The Great Reset" and "build back better" is bullshit created by the World Economic forum by elitist neoliberal politicians and their mega-wealthy paymasters (who meet every year at Davos). Chrystia Freeland is on the board of trustees LOL. If there's going to be coordinated international system-wide changes to western economies i'd prefer it come from a ground-up effort than these paid-off neoliberals telling how to live. I think they're using this crisis as an excuse to implement whatever agenda they have.
Anyways, i feel bad for all struggling small businesses. I hope the pandemic doesn't concentrate even more business power in the hands of large corporations. I think large corporations probably have more reserve capital to withstand this pandemic, not to mention investors buying stock in this market and providing more capital for them, which small businesses don't have.
The markets don't perfectly reflect the current state of the economy, people invest with a mind on how they think markets will perform in the future. Investors see markets coming out of this pandemic in the next year and will likely go on another extended bull run, so investors are betting on that and trying to buy in low before the economy actually starts picking up steam. I think the markets are overvalued right now based on how the economy is currently doing, it makes no sense that the S&P 500 is hitting all-time highs.
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"The Great Reset" and "build back better" is bullshit created by the World Economic forum by elitist neoliberal politicians and their mega-wealthy paymasters (who meet every year at Davos).
Quite true, and it's pretty close to the opposite of what I was talking about in the OP.
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Quite true, and it's pretty close to the opposite of what I was talking about in the OP.
I'm not sure what you're proposing, i don't know what you mean by "resetting capitalism". What does that entail?
Since this pandemic is a once-in-a-century phenomenon I think we should fix some of the glaring holes we've had in our pandemic preparedness in case this happens again, and support people and small businesses get back to work, but not sure what else we need to do besides that in terms of COVID.
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I'm not sure what you're proposing, i don't know what you mean by "resetting capitalism". What does that entail?
Since this pandemic is a once-in-a-century phenomenon I think we should fix some of the glaring holes we've had in our pandemic preparedness in case this happens again, and support people and small businesses get back to work, but not sure what else we need to do besides that in terms of COVID.
It almost certainly won't be just a 'once in a century phenomenon, but that's not the point. Capitalism roars at the same time as food lines to feed the hungry in the US are longer than ever before. Their brand of capitalism doesn't work. Does it matter to the people that businesses that deal in non-essentials are going out of business?
Does it matter to the economy of that country? If so then why is the stock market booming?
You suggest the S.&P. is overinflated. Is that the flash in the pan before the darkness? I suspect it's not.
Three billionaires in that country hold as much wealth as the bottom half of their people. That's very wrong!
If you understand better now, your thoughts?
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I think we have left our country vulnerable with our reliance on other countries for a lot of critical things. We should pull a Trump and designate domestic sources in certain sectors a matter of national security
Try to tell us what domestic sources you're talking about wilbur. I can then try to tie that in with the topic here on this thread.Even though I have no idea on how that could be done.
It's just more important to not discourage you when you're at least trying. Thank you!
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It almost certainly won't be just a 'once in a century phenomenon, but that's not the point.
When is the last time something like this has happened? 1918 Spanish Flu?
Capitalism roars at the same time as food lines to feed the hungry in the US are longer than ever before. Their brand of capitalism doesn't work. Does it matter to the people that businesses that deal in non-essentials are going out of business?
Does it matter to the economy of that country? If so then why is the stock market booming?
You suggest the S.&P. is overinflated. Is that the flash in the pan before the darkness? I suspect it's not.
Three billionaires in that country hold as much wealth as the bottom half of their people. That's very wrong!
Yes I agree that the USA has many problems revolving around inequality and it's been this way for a long time, it's sad but they don't seem to learn. They elected Biden over Bernie, so I guess that's their problem to solve. I like Bernie. We can't force them to embrace what every other Western country has.
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When is the last time something like this has happened? 1918 Spanish Flu?
I'm thinking of over 7 billion and up to 10 billion where it's predicted to stop.
Yes I agree that the USA has many problems revolving around inequality and it's been this way for a long time, it's sad but they don't seem to learn. They elected Biden over Bernie, so I guess that's their problem to solve. I like Bernie. We can't force them to embrace what every other Western country has.
We're seeing an extreme now, as I've suggested with the comparison of great prosperity in the stock markets compared to great hardhips with food lines stretching over the horizon.
I think that many don't appreciate the size of the problem and that's got a lot to do with propaganda that's peddled and upheld by even those who are bankrupted and close to starving on the streets.
Can they break free and remake capitalism into something similar to China's huge success story? I hope you agree that it's a success story?
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Yesterday the US death count to the virus hit over 1500 by noon PST.
Today the death count has hit 1900 by noon PST.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
There's probably little doubt that the death count will pass 300,000 in the US, early in December!
Also of interest will be Canada's death rate that can be roughly compared by dividing the US by 10.
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There's probably little doubt that the death count will pass 300,000 in the US, early in December! Also of interest will be Canada's death rate that can be roughly compared by dividing the US by 10.
stand back and stand by! The waldo's crack research team is still working the math...
(https://i.imgur.com/55CAQcZ.png)
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stand back and stand by! The waldo's crack research team is still working the math...
(https://i.imgur.com/55CAQcZ.png)
It's too early in the day to tell waldo. I think Canada's death toll has been going along at about 2/3's of the US after adjustment per capita. But there's a good chance of them blowing by 3000 today, for an alltime record.
Do you think that Biden has the power to at least make his recommendations known to the people, so as to gain some leverage for stopping the slaughter?
Trump as the official president seems to have gone dark!
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US sets a new record for Covid deaths today.
2810!
And the Trumpers on my other forums are still saying it's just a seasonal flu and nothingi to be worried about.
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I don't understand this whoel reset talk. Why would democracy need to be reset or restarted?
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I don't understand this whoel reset talk. Why would democracy need to be reset or restarted?
So you’re concerned about the buzzwords, and take offence to a word, rather than actually knowing what policies would be entailed in a ‘reset’.
You’re a very shallow-minded thinker, aren’t you?
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I don't understand this whoel reset talk. Why would democracy need to be reset or restarted?
I don't think the people going on about some great reset have a clue what they are talking about either.
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So you’re concerned about the buzzwords, and take offence to a word, rather than actually knowing what policies would be entailed in a ‘reset’.
You’re a very shallow-minded thinker, aren’t you?
I didn't say I was offended by it.
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I didn't say I was offended by it.
Again, that’s very shallow thinking. Fine... you object to the word. What are the policies?
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Again, that’s very shallow thinking. Fine... you object to the word. What are the policies?
it
No, I don’t know what it means. What is it supposed to mean?
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No, I don’t know what it means. What is it supposed to mean?
No idea what it means.
Unlike some, I will wait and see what it means in terms of policy changes and then form my opinion about.
You on the other hand, think it’s a bad idea before the idea is even articulated.
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No idea what it means.
Unlike some, I will wait and see what it means in terms of policy changes and then form my opinion about.
You on the other hand, think it’s a bad idea before the idea is even articulated.
This seems really evil:
https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/
::)
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Again, that’s very shallow thinking. Fine... you object to the word. What are the policies?
What is shallow thinking? He said he doesn't know what it means. He never said he objected to anything. Because so far there is nothing, except buzzwords.
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What is shallow thinking? He said he doesn't know what it means. He never said he objected to anything. Because so far there is nothing, except buzzwords.
It's clearly about lessening wealth equality, and putting the planet and people before profit.
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It's clearly about lessening wealth equality, and putting the planet and people before profit.
Yes, which are buzzwords. There's no actual policy platforms yet.
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I would hope everyone would agree with those buzzwords in general, but the devil is in the details.
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Thank you to the 16 people who have read this thread so far, and also thank you for not replying with unnecessary spamming.
How could anybody question the fact that something is going terribly wrong in America when the Dow hits a record high as food lines hit record lengths?
We're obviously not to the point at which Americans are afraid of the death count yet, but we're probably not far from it.
The reason there are food lines, etc is because the government has shut down their businesses. How can you blame that on capitalism? That's Orwellian.
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The reason there are food lines, etc is because the government has shut down their businesses. How can you blame that on capitalism? That's Orwellian.
member Shady, pictures of long lines (of vehicles, of people) were from so-called 'red-states'... of prominent note, Texas & Florida. I thought those states were open for bidness - no shutdowns per the Rethuglican mantra! Amirite?
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member Shady, pictures of long lines (of vehicles, of people) were from so-called 'red-states'... of prominent note, Texas & Florida. I thought those states were open for bidness - no shutdowns per the Rethuglican mantra! Amirite?
But I thought they were open and irresponsible? What gives. Regardless, there are plenty of food lines etc in California, etc.
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The reason there are food lines, etc is because the government has shut down their businesses. How can you blame that on capitalism? That's Orwellian.
It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
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It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
Complete nonsense. A government can provide income to people out of work without abandoning capitalism. It's a capitalist economy that produces the revenue necessary for all the goodies we love, education, health care, etc. Capitalism is essentially just recognizing private property rights, and the voluntary purchasing of goods and services. If you're against that, you're against freedom. Which doesn't really surprise me. I get that freedom gets in the way of your pandemic mitigation response. But you're advocation for totalitarianism is ridiculous.
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It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
Under any economic system during a pandemic many workers would stay at home and the economy would slow down substantially. Under most any economic system worth a darn the government would be supporting these workers with income similar to now.
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It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
First of all, I don't think any economic system will function very well during a pandemic.
Secondly, what exactly are you defining as 'capitalism'? After all, at this point in time pretty much every society has a mixed economic system... Even the "Greed is good" United States has at least some government-funded social programs and other public works (Medicare, welfare, the CDC, etc.) as well as financial and environmental regulations, and even the most left-wing socialist economy (e.g. Sweden) still has free markets. There may be a few command-economies (such as North Korea, or Cuba), but the standard of living in such places is generally low.
Lastly, while it is true that people may have economic problems in a pandemic, there is no guarantee things would be better in a command economy, and in fact may be worse. The current crop of Covid-19 vaccines have been developed in part by corporations, in part because they may see potential profit. There is no guarantee that a command economy would have had the same success. (Remember, there have been many human disasters that have taken place under command economies... famines in the Ukraine under Stalin, China's Great Leap Forward, that saw many people die.)
In my opinion, the best option is an economy that is largely free market (with appropriate regulations), that uses the wealth generated by the free markets (through taxation and self interest) to provide necessities for those who would otherwise be unable to afford it. And that's what pretty much all the western countries are doing. Both Canada and the United States have used tax revenue and/or borrowing to deal with the impact of Covid-19, but much of the wealth now used to deal with Covid was generated thanks to free markets.
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Secondly, what exactly are you defining as 'capitalism'? After all, at this point in time pretty much every society has a mixed economic system... Even the "Greed is good" United States has at least some government-funded social programs and other public works (Medicare, welfare, the CDC, etc.) as well as financial and environmental regulations, and even the most left-wing socialist economy (e.g. Sweden) still has free markets. There may be a few command-economies (such as North Korea, or Cuba), but the standard of living in such places is generally low.
US GDP contracted close to 33% in Q2, Sweden was less than 9%.
Bubbermiley isn't saying anything radical. Economists have been saying the same thing throughout this incredible year.
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US GDP contracted close to 33% in Q2, Sweden was less than 9%.
Bubbermiley isn't saying anything radical. Economists have been saying the same thing throughout this incredible year.
That’s because Sweden never shut down and let its capitalist economy continue to operate. Try again.
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That’s because Sweden never shut down and let its capitalist economy continue to operate. Try again.
Sweden is hitting new highs in infections. The PM says their approach was a mistake. Even their King who remains non political just came out and said they had failed. Their economy shrank more than the other Scandinavian countries in the second quarter. Countries that had a small fraction of Sweden’s Covid deaths.
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Sweden is hitting new highs in infections. The PM says their approach was a mistake. Even their King who remains non political just came out and said they had failed. Their economy shrank more than the other Scandinavian countries in the second quarter. Countries that had a small fraction of Sweden’s Covid deaths.
But it wasn’t a mistake. Shutting down in the spring or summer wouldn’t have prevented the fall surge. Many counties are seeing new highs. Germany has new daily covid death highs. You can’t compare Sweden to other Scandinavian counties. They have twice the population and a much larger economy. Regardless, what I said is true. They didn’t see the same kind of economic damage as the United States because they didn’t shut down their economy. That was my point.
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But it wasn’t a mistake. Shutting down in the spring or summer wouldn’t have prevented the fall surge. Many counties are seeing new highs. Germany has new daily covid death highs. You can’t compare Sweden to other Scandinavian counties. They have twice the population and a much larger economy. Regardless, what I said is true. They didn’t see the same kind of economic damage as the United States because they didn’t shut down their economy. That was my point.
They basically had the same recommendations as other countries, they just didn’t make them mandatory, if you can’t compare them to other Scandinavian countries, why are you comparing them to anyone else? We have over three times Sweden’s population.
Sweden has four times as many Covid deaths as Norway, Denmark and Finland combined.
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They basically had the same recommendations as other countries, they just didn’t make them mandatory, if you can’t compare them to other Scandinavian countries, why are you comparing them to anyone else? We have over three times Sweden’s population.
Sweden has four times as many Covid deaths as Norway, Denmark and Finland combined.
My comment was related to the post that US GDP contracted by 32% while Sweden's only contracted by 9%. I simply stated that Sweden didn't shut down their economy the way the United States did, hence, the lack of economic contraction. That's the only point I was making. Regardless, most countries are seeing huge spikes in cases and deaths now. What Sweden did back in the spring has little relevance to what has happened the last month or so.
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It shows that capitalism can't withstand a pandemic very well. It leads to low-wage workers like yourself going without income for the safety and security of the nation, That's clearly not sustainable. You've said it yourself. The only remedy you have under capitalism is to ignore it and let the virus spread.
The reason that our government has been able to borrow so much money is that lenders have high confidence in our free market economy and its ability to repay those debts.
The pandemic has highlighted many questions about economy, of course. Which businesses and industries might vanish in the future, what is essential and what is not, what do people who "aren't essential" do to earn a living, and so on. Another question that has been raised is how has the stock market become so disconnected from the economy at large? People are out of work, small businesses are closing left and right, whole industries are struggling or floundering, the government is subsidizing individuals to a degree that hasn't been seen in generations (if ever) and during all of this the stock market is higher than ever before. How is that possible? What is going on? We saw this after the 2007 crash as well. For several years afterward people were struggling to get back into the labor market even as stock markets recovered quickly. But now during this pandemic the disconnect between the stock market and the economy is wider than ever. I don't get it.
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I don't get it.
Generally, large companies aren’t hurting during the pandemic.
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My comment was related to the post that US GDP contracted by 32% while Sweden's only contracted by 9%. I simply stated that Sweden didn't shut down their economy the way the United States did, hence, the lack of economic contraction. That's the only point I was making. Regardless, most countries are seeing huge spikes in cases and deaths now. What Sweden did back in the spring has little relevance to what has happened the last month or so.
Why are you comparing Sweden with the US which has over 30 times the population when you won't compare it to the other Scandinavian countries which each have just over half Sweden"s population?
What Sweden did last spring is exactly what you are comparing them to.
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Why are you comparing Sweden with the US which has over 30 times wth population when you won't compare it to the other Scandinavian countries which each have just over half Swedens population?
What Sweden did last spring is exactly what you are comparing them to.
Time for Shady to run away from this thread for a while.... then he’ll pop back in here to make some inane, ridiculous comment without acknowledging you asked him anything.
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Why are you comparing Sweden with the US which has over 30 times the population when you won't compare it to the other Scandinavian countries which each have just over half Sweden"s population?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact Sweden has bigger subway systems than other Scandinavian countries. It's not fair to compare because of that or some such thing. I recall arguments that used that logic to declare that Canada is actually doing worse than the US.
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Maybe it has something to do with the fact Sweden has bigger subway systems than other Scandinavian countries. It's not fair to compare because of that or some such thing. I recall arguments that used that logic to declare that Canada is actually doing worse than the US.
BS logic.
All of Canada's major cities have either subway or light rail systems. North and South Dakota each have populations well under a million yet each have almost twice as many deaths as BC with over 5 million people.
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BS logic.
All of Canada's major cities have either subway or light rail systems. North and South Dakota each have populations well under a million yet each have almost twice as many deaths as BC with over 5 million people.
Absolutely its BS logic. There's a term I heard the other day I liked...'split-screen reality'. Its probably even worse where the split screen is more like a bunch of browser tabs that load alternate realities. You said the Internet would be the death of us and you might be right.
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BS logic.
All of Canada's major cities have either subway or light rail systems. North and South Dakota each have populations well under a million yet each have almost twice as many deaths as BC with over 5 million people.
And there is barely any urban population. Everyone lives 20 miles apart and they still have been among the worst hit. The only explanation is totally incompetence, which I understand having grown up in Winnipeg on local North Dakota TV. Even as a small child, I could always tell something was different about those people.
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And there is barely any urban population. Everyone lives 20 miles apart and they still have been among the worst hit. The only explanation is totally incompetence, which I understand having grown up in Winnipeg on local North Dakota TV. Even as a small child, I could always tell something was different about those people.
It's largest city is Fargo, with about 20,000 fewer people than Abbotsford or the city of Kelowna
Spent a short time in Grand Forks back in the seventies. Wasn't much to it.