Canadian Political Events

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmy on October 15, 2020, 05:32:38 am

Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: kimmy on October 15, 2020, 05:32:38 am
From ancient times to modern day, the corvid family-- especially crows and ravens-- have fascinated and mystified mankind.  They figure prominently in the mythology of a number of ancient peoples around the world. Norse, Native American, Celtic, Greek, and numerous other mythologies demonstrate the allure that crows and ravens have for the human imagination.  Part of the intrigue lies in the in their stark appearance, the pitch black feathers that shine like obsidian when the sun hits them. And their appetite for dead things has led to them being associated with death and war, illness, and bad omen. But there is also their intelligence. In Norse myth Odin has two ravens named Huginn and Muninn, or Thought and Memory. They travel the world and return to him, and whisper everything that they've seen in his ear.  In some Native American mythologies the Raven is a key figure. He is trickster, an agent of chaos... in some stories Raven accidentally unleashed mankind into the world.  From the Old Testament to Edgar Allen Poe, these birds have staked a claim in human imagination.

How intelligent are corvids? Pretty intelligent! A lot of research has been done on the subject. It turns out that they can solve problems, create tools, memorize things, recognize people. While many animals have declined because of human influence, corvids have thrived because they are tremendously adaptable. These fascinating creatures are clever enough to find ways to survive alongside humans.

One of my favorite stories about humans interacting with crows is this story about a girl who feeds crows and gets presents in return.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31604026

In Vancouver a crow became a local celebrity. Canuck The Crow liked to ride the Skytrain (inside, with the people) and once stole a knife from a crime scene.
https://www.vancourier.com/community/canuck-the-crow-lives-on-through-fan-art-photos-1.24066645

Let's talk corvids!

 -k
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 15, 2020, 11:44:12 am
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xVbejw0NL._SX486_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Great book on the topic. 

https://www.amazon.ca/Bird-Brains-Intelligence-Ravens-Magpies/dp/0871569566

When I was a small child, we had a crow that adopted us as itís family for a time.  I remember my mom getting pissed off when the crow would hop along behind us and come into the house.  It would sit on your shoulder, cawing in your ear...    It hung around for months until it didnít, for whatever reason.  I like to think it got bored of us and hopped a bus to the next town...

We have Stellarís jays that come to the feeder and gulp down all the seeds...  theyíre very intelligent and closely related to crows.

Grey jays (whiskey Jack, Canada jay, camp robber or whatever you want to call them) are also corvids.  They love shiny objects.  We once had a chess piece stolen when we were hiking in Strathcona Park right out from under my buddyís arm by one brave grey jay....  we saw him eyeing up the pieces on the little board before he swooped in and stole one... we didnít think heíd be quite so brazen! 
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: waldo on October 15, 2020, 12:15:54 pm
of the Family: Corvidae ... the Blue Jay!

(https://i.imgur.com/0HGEksN.png)
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: kimmy on October 15, 2020, 12:16:57 pm
Last summer at work we had a big crow that had started hanging out in the parking lot for some reason. When the minions went out for their smoke break they would talk to it and it would caw back. They started giving it food and named him Jake.   After a while it seems like he started becoming impatient for their smoke breaks, because he would start cawing at the door.  This was really irritating for Technical Sales Tom, because his window was near the front door. So he would run out and shoe the bird away.  Jake apparently thought this was great fun, because he would come back and do the same thing 15 minutes later.  "ARGH you stupid bird I'm going to kill you!" Tom would shout as he ran out into the parking lot as Jake flew away,  only to return soon after.  Soon Jake stopped going to the front door and started just standing outside Tom's window and looking in, cawing at him occasionally as if to remind him that it was time to come out and play. We convinced Tom that he was only encouraging this by reacting, so Tom forced himself to ignore Jake, though he dearly wished to strangle him.   He started closing the blinds so that Jake could not see him. Jake started going around to other windows, including mine, to see if he could find Tom or convince anyone else to come out and play. But aside from the minions on their smoke breaks, nobody would come out to play with Jake anymore.  He left after a while.  The minions were disappointed and started worrying. Perhaps Jake had been hurt or killed?  But I think that he simply had hurt feelings and went off to find new playmates.

 -k
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: JuniperRose on October 15, 2020, 12:30:40 pm
Must it only be about Corvids? 

We have a couple of bird feeders, servicing chickadees, robins, bush tits, Stellar Jays and others we don't recognize.  The Stellar Jays are particularly noisy if the bird feeders happen to be empty, and will watch from nearby perches as they're refilled. 

Yesterday, a chickadee dropped by - and discovered the buffet had been cleaned out.  He flitted around a bit, and suddenly came within a few inches of the window, held himself there for a few seconds to stare into the room.  Clearly a message was being delivered.  So I sent the man out to do the necessary, with the chickadee overseeing and eagerly getting to his breakfast as soon as it was available.

Perhaps all birds are smarter than we think.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: eyeball on October 25, 2020, 11:38:49 am
I worked in a fish-plant years and years ago and one day a crow followed a forklift into a big frozen storage room where it managed to survive for a couple of months.  It ate whatever it could peck away at and apparently stayed warm by roosting near a spot amongst a freezing equipment in a spot that was warm.  We tried everything to flush it out but it was impossible to evict. Then one day he/she followed the forklift out of the freezer. It was still in the fish plant but soon found its way to the main door and then things took a quick turn towards the surreal.  As usual there was a sizable contingent of crows and gulls roosting nearby waiting for an opportunity and all hell broke out when our crow flew outside and it was promptly attacked and torn to pieces by all the other crows who suddenly swarmed it.

The gulls seems as perplexed as us by the behaviour.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: eyeball on October 25, 2020, 11:45:55 am
'Dark thoughts fluttered thru his mind like a murder of crows'.

That's the opening line to the mystery novel I never wrote.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 02:15:12 pm
When I was a kid I lived in Steveston for awhile. At that time it was a real fishing town with three operating packing houses. About half of my friends were Japanese kids of fishing families. One of their older brothers used to make his own Sake. He would take what was left of the rice mash and put it on fence posts for the gulls and watch them get pissed.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 28, 2020, 02:28:41 pm
When I was a kid I lived in Steveston for awhile. At that time it was a real fishing town with three operating packing houses. About half of my friends were Japanese kids of fishing families. One of their older brothers used to make his own Sake. He would take what was left of the rice mash and put it on fence posts for the gulls and watch them get pissed.

The Japanese, fishermen nor sea gulls are corvids....
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 02:51:37 pm
The Japanese, fishermen nor sea gulls are corvids....

No but some of them are birds.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 28, 2020, 08:14:06 pm
I worked in a fish-plant...

That sounds like the worst workplace ever.  That sucks.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 28, 2020, 08:16:18 pm
Long ago I drove past a fish plant on my way to work.  In the spring hundreds the gulls would swarm around the place.  The road in front of the plant was covered in gull roadkill.  Good times.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on October 29, 2020, 12:40:19 pm
Long ago I drove past a fish plant on my way to work.  In the spring hundreds the gulls would swarm around the place.  The road in front of the plant was covered in gull roadkill.  Good times.

It's really starting to sound like where you live has a problem with disregard for the environment. We have a fish processing plant in my city that's right on the ocean waterfront and it doesn't have that problem at all. The plant doesn't allow any opportunity for the gulls that would attract them.

Is your provincial, federal, and municipal government Conservative? Mine's pretty consistently leftist and has been for years. Vancouver Island is consistently leftist.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 29, 2020, 02:44:33 pm
It's really starting to sound like where you live has a problem with disregard for the environment. We have a fish processing plant in my city that's right on the ocean waterfront and it doesn't have that problem at all. The plant doesn't allow any opportunity for the gulls that would attract them.

Is your provincial, federal, and municipal government Conservative? Mine's pretty consistently leftist and has been for years. Vancouver Island is consistently leftist.


Vancouver Island shit donít smell!   Other than rightist Victoria, which dumps its untreated human shit right into the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

HAHA

I can tell you that French Creek, which is on Vancouver Island, has all sorts of gulls and other vermin around the fish plant eating discarded fish remains.  That must be a rightist plant though....    ::)
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: kimmy on October 30, 2020, 12:57:04 am
The Japanese, fishermen nor sea gulls are corvids....

Remember that some seagulls may self-identify as corvids.  It would be unfair to exclude them.

 -k
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on October 30, 2020, 11:57:31 am

Vancouver Island shit donít smell!   Other than rightist Victoria, which dumps its untreated human shit right into the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

HAHA

I can tell you that French Creek, which is on Vancouver Island, has all sorts of gulls and other vermin around the fish plant eating discarded fish remains.  That must be a rightist plant though....    ::)

I rightist fish plant could be known as such if the plant takes short cuts on environmental concerns around the plant. The more rightist they are, the more conscious they will be on ensuring nothing cuts into their profits. Obviously we wouldn't now have emission control on vehicles now if it wasn't for the determination of leftists. We wouldn't even have seat belts and air bags!

That's not the fish plant I mentioned. And I would agree that Victoria pumping out raw sewage is disgraceful.

But still overall, Vancouver Island is a notch above the mainland for cleanliness. People who can afford more choose t live all along the Pacific ocean fringe due to a better quality of life.

Rightist Victoria? It's pretty well Green Victoria now and that's something worth mentioning due to the contradiction with the sewage.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 30, 2020, 02:10:43 pm
Every fish plant attracts gulls.  Leftist or rightist, although a label like that on a fish plant is rather idiotic.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on October 30, 2020, 02:15:07 pm
Every fish plant attracts gulls.  Leftist or rightist, although a label like that on a fish plant is rather idiotic.

It's the management of the plant silly, and the government that enforces regulations on the plant. A fish plant in Alberta would be a filthy stinking mess, while a fish plant in B.C. is usually more like the one I referred to. That one has one or two gulls sitting around because they're attracted to the smell of fish. But it's so few because they don't get any opportunity.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 30, 2020, 05:08:26 pm
It's the management of the plant silly, and the government that enforces regulations on the plant. A fish plant in Alberta would be a filthy stinking mess, while a fish plant in B.C. is usually more like the one I referred to. That one has one or two gulls sitting around because they're attracted to the smell of fish. But it's so few because they don't get any opportunity.

Which plant?

And how many fish plants do you think there are in Alberta?   
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on October 30, 2020, 05:10:57 pm
Which plant?

And how many fish plants do you think there are in Alberta?

Best if you just believe what I've said. I don't make up lies about such things.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 30, 2020, 06:00:26 pm
Best if you just believe what I've said. I don't make up lies about such things.

I think youíre full of shit.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: wilber on October 30, 2020, 06:05:39 pm
I think youíre full of shit.

Remember squid.  VI shit don't stink
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on October 31, 2020, 01:10:42 pm
When I can coax squid and wilbur to start calling me a liar, I have the incentive I need to tell them what plant I've been talking about.

https://www.wcrl.com/nanaimo

And as a side note, St.Jean's cannery could maybe be included as a fish processing plant too, which might have a couple of gulls hanging around that are attracted by the smell of the steam escaping.

Neither provide any opportunity for seagulls.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on October 31, 2020, 04:33:54 pm
When I can coax squid and wilbur to start calling me a liar, I have the incentive I need to tell them what plant I've been talking about.

https://www.wcrl.com/nanaimo

And as a side note, St.Jean's cannery could maybe be included as a fish processing plant too, which might have a couple of gulls hanging around that are attracted by the smell of the steam escaping.

Neither provide any opportunity for seagulls.

A reduction plant is not a fish plant.  Holy crap. 

A cannery out in the middle of land is also not much of a fish plant.  The ones on the water that process fish generally have gulls hanging around.  I'm not even sure why that matters, except that it makes them "rightist"....
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: Montgomery on November 01, 2020, 11:47:52 am
They're both fish processing plants that afford no opportunity to gulls.
The point is that you two accused me of lying.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: JMT on November 11, 2020, 11:25:39 am
Manitoba on lockdown means that I have to go to work and back home every day for a month...so, it's just like every other month.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on November 13, 2020, 04:03:02 pm
Manitoba on lockdown means that I have to go to work and back home every day for a month...so, it's just like every other month.

Wrong thread JMT...   this is Corvid Culture....   you were looking for COVID Culture. 
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: wilber on November 13, 2020, 04:12:05 pm
Corvids are smart there, is no doubt about it. I'm sure they would use tools if they had the hands to fashion them. They already use things like our cars as a tools when they drop nuts on the road so cars will crack them.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on November 13, 2020, 04:14:08 pm
Corvids are smart there, is no doubt about it. I'm sure they would use tools if they had the hands to fashion them. They already use things like our cars as a tools when they drop nuts on the road so cars will crack them.

You underestimate them again! 

https://www.sciencealert.com/crows-are-so-smart-they-can-make-compound-tools-out-of-multiple-parts
Quote
We already knew that corvids - crows and ravens - are capable of reasoning cause and effect, solving multi-step puzzles, planning for the future and even fashioning simple tools out of sticks and paper.

But making compound tools is something that has only ever been observed before in primates - specifically, humans and and great apes.

Even young humans take several years to be able to learn this skill, because cognitively speaking, it's actually quite complex. It requires the ability to anticipate the properties of objects, and to be able to mentally map the consequences of putting them together prior to doing so.
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: kimmy on November 14, 2020, 06:30:36 pm
Manitoba on lockdown means that I have to go to work and back home every day for a month...so, it's just like every other month.

Wrong thread JMT...   this is Corvid Culture....   you were looking for COVID Culture. 

How could somebody mistake the Corvid Culture thread for the Covid Culture thread?  To me that is completely ridiculous.


 -k
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: kimmy on November 23, 2020, 08:56:02 pm
Raven in traditional Haida style
(https://i.imgur.com/QKzlFN1.png)

A modern imagining of the "Raven Banner" battle flags flown by Viking warlords from the 9th to 11th centuries. My ancestors might have been waving something like this when they looted your ancestors' village.
(https://i.imgur.com/9ANnCke.png)

Emily Carr's "Big Raven" painting, on a Canada Post stamp.
(https://i.imgur.com/p394xD4.jpg)

 -k
Title: Re: Corvid Culture (was Outbeak Culture)
Post by: the_squid on November 23, 2020, 09:21:10 pm
Bill Reidís Raven and First Men.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Bill_Reid%2C_%22The_Raven_and_the_First_Men%22%2C_Museum_of_Anthropology%2C_University_of_British_Columbia_%28UBC%29_%282288795049%29.jpg/1200px-Bill_Reid%2C_%22The_Raven_and_the_First_Men%22%2C_Museum_of_Anthropology%2C_University_of_British_Columbia_%28UBC%29_%282288795049%29.jpg)




Raven in Tree by Roy Henry Vickers

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0011/9996/4204/products/Raven_in_tree_1fcddff6-1eb0-42a9-b570-0fbce249a1b9_700x.jpg?v=1538157729)