Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Montgomery on October 08, 2020, 01:37:31 pm


Title: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 08, 2020, 01:37:31 pm
Is he still the darling of the right or is he now just a hasbeen fool.

Jordan could never get past his apparent Christian belief in a god and not being a Christian. Or vice versa, depending on how he tried to explain the issue away?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 08, 2020, 02:06:56 pm
Search it up... lots of hits for him when you search...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 08, 2020, 02:37:37 pm
Search it up... lots of hits for him when you search...

I'm probably as up to date on Jordan as anyone here but searching doesn't answer the question for me. There are lots of pros and cons on him. My best reference on him would be on the way Sam Harris has exposed his problem on his belief/disbelief in a god and christianity.

Sam credits him with high intelligence  and I have to agree on that. The problem is, people of high intelligence can be very wrong on some issues due to political leaning and much more importantly, childhood indoctrination that is so very pwerful.

That's the reason why a brin surgeon, for instance, can be a Christian believer. Much the same as a duckling can believe that the coyote is it's mother if it's imprinted on the coyote.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 08, 2020, 04:41:14 pm
I don't believe people are right or wrong, but different opinions they have are.  So like you say, I agree with him on some things and disagree on others.

He's been very ill recently, so he's been out of the spotlight for awhile.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 08, 2020, 07:11:12 pm
I'm probably as up to date on Jordan as anyone here but searching doesn't answer the question for me. There are lots of pros and cons on him. My best reference on him would be on the way Sam Harris has exposed his problem on his belief/disbelief in a god and christianity.

I listened to that, I think.  Harris (and most intellectuals) tower over him and are kind enough to let him off the hook.  I think because he brings a lot of exposure to whatever channel he is in.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 08, 2020, 07:12:20 pm
The big problem with Peterson is he has to moralize on everything.  He quotes Nietzsche and adds "that's good" to stuff he agrees with.  Gee, thanks Jordan...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 08, 2020, 11:46:36 pm
The big problem with Peterson is he has to moralize on everything.  He quotes Nietzsche and adds "that's good" to stuff he agrees with.  Gee, thanks Jordan...

Nietzsche literally moralized everything.  His books were called "On the Genealogy of Morality" and "Beyond Good and Evil".

But i see what you're saying.  I think to be an academic, you can't be an activist.  You need to look at things objectively, or else it becomes much easier to run into confirmation bias, and then your research is just worthless lies.  From an academic sense, "Hitler did X and that's bad" isn't nearly as important as "Hitler did X because of Y and Z".

Peterson's perspectives on psychology are 1000x more interesting than his political views.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 09, 2020, 08:13:52 am
Nietzsche literally moralized everything.  His books were called "On the Genealogy of Morality" and "Beyond Good and Evil".

Dissecting morality isn't moralizing ?  What are you talking about ?  It's called "BEYOND" Good and Evil, right ?

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But i see what you're saying.  I think to be an academic, you can't be an activist.  You need to look at things objectively, or else it becomes much easier to run into confirmation bias, and then your research is just worthless lies.  From an academic sense, "Hitler did X and that's bad" isn't nearly as important as "Hitler did X because of Y and Z".

Well, I didn't think of it that way but what you wrote makes sense.  I do think academics can be free to moralize, but their primary goal is to assess and provide a landscape for thought and discussion.

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Peterson's perspectives on psychology are 1000x more interesting than his political views.

I actually think there's lots of room right now for a moralist of his ilk.  But he isn't the guy.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 09, 2020, 11:19:47 am
Nietzsche literally moralized everything.  His books were called "On the Genealogy of Morality" and "Beyond Good and Evil".

But i see what you're saying.  I think to be an academic, you can't be an activist.  You need to look at things objectively, or else it becomes much easier to run into confirmation bias, and then your research is just worthless lies.  From an academic sense, "Hitler did X and that's bad" isn't nearly as important as "Hitler did X because of Y and Z".

Peterson's perspectives on psychology are 1000x more interesting than his political views.

Yes, but consider that Jordan's reputation rests largely on his inability to say what he means on being a Christian believer or not. For a highly intelligent individual, that's completely unacceptable.

Harris had the stake ready to drive into his devious heart but must have seen good reasons to allow him to survive. Perhaps Harris was thinking of his value as a 'moralist', as is being hinted at by MH.

I agree with MH in that if we're to have a moralist then the person who takes on the job will have to start from a less flawed position than Jordan's. He can never doubletalk his way out of his Christian/atheist positions.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 01:04:00 am
Dissecting morality isn't moralizing ?  What are you talking about ?  It's called "BEYOND" Good and Evil, right ?
Well, "beyond" meaning the world isn't black and white, God vs Satan.  He was a philosopher, their job is often to moralize.

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Well, I didn't think of it that way but what you wrote makes sense.  I do think academics can be free to moralize, but their primary goal is to assess and provide a landscape for thought and discussion.
Is moralizing different than activism?  I don't know.  Some fields you need to moralize, like philosophy, or theology.  It's hard to be a good ie: historian for example when you have a activist agenda and start looking for certain things and ignoring others.  The same with science.  Copper is better at conducting electricity than iron because it is, not because a researcher wants it to be.

Sometimes moralizing is unavoidable, we're human, so you can just try to be as objective as possible.  I took a course on the Israel-Palestine conflict once.  Obviously the subject can be controversial and heated.  The prof was great, she always reminded us to "put our scholar caps on" and look at the issue as academics. It removes your emotional bias and personal moralizing/ideology from the issue.  I'll never forget that.  We all see things from different perspectives based on our life experiences and identity etc.  If you can only look at reality through your own lens you'll often miss a lot.

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I actually think there's lots of room right now for a moralist of his ilk.  But he isn't the guy.

I think he's just a guy among many.  We don't need a saviour, we just need civil discourse.  People like him are important because they express intelligent arguments that are counter to the politically correct moral "consensus".  You need brave people like that, even if they're sometimes wrong.  Ideas that are accepted but never challenged can be dangerous.  History is filled with examples.

Socrates was executed for "corrupting the youth".  Jesus was nailed to a cross.  Who are we crucifying today?  What are our holy beliefs that only heretics question?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 09:15:21 am
Well, "beyond" meaning the world isn't black and white, God vs Satan.  He was a philosopher, their job is often to moralize.

Right, but he is known chiefly as the person who killed 'God' and morality by dissecting it and breaking it down as a human need.

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Is moralizing different than activism?  I don't know.  Some fields you need to moralize, like philosophy, or theology.  It's hard to be a good ie: historian for example when you have a activist agenda and start looking for certain things and ignoring others.  The same with science.  Copper is better at conducting electricity than iron because it is, not because a researcher wants it to be.

'Activism' is different, but I see what you are saying.  It has come to mean fighting for identity politics and the onboard morality it contains.  I think that the primary goal of an academic is/should be knowledge.

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Sometimes moralizing is unavoidable, we're human, so you can just try to be as objective as possible.  I took a course on the Israel-Palestine conflict once.  Obviously the subject can be controversial and heated.  The prof was great, she always reminded us to "put our scholar caps on" and look at the issue as academics. It removes your emotional bias and personal moralizing/ideology from the issue.  I'll never forget that.  We all see things from different perspectives based on our life experiences and identity etc.  If you can only look at reality through your own lens you'll often miss a lot.

Yes, and politics is difficult between it sits between "pure" knowledge and emotions.  But if it drifts one way or the other then a correction happens.

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I think he's just a guy among many.  We don't need a saviour, we just need civil discourse.  People like him are important because they express intelligent arguments that are counter to the politically correct moral "consensus".  You need brave people like that, even if they're sometimes wrong.  Ideas that are accepted but never challenged can be dangerous.  History is filled with examples.

Socrates was executed for "corrupting the youth".  Jesus was nailed to a cross.  Who are we crucifying today?  What are our holy beliefs that only heretics question?

The thing is, he had a foothold in being a contrarian in the service of "civil discourse" and he blew it.  All he would have had to do is be a little more careful with his language.  Did he deserve to be demonized ?  I would say not, but he was the one who blew it.  You can blame the mob, but I don't blame a dog who bites me I blame the master, the leash maker, my wife, you, Waldo... anybody else... but the dog and myself...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 11:30:46 am
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Did he deserve to be demonized ?  I would say not, but he was the one who blew it.

This is a contradictory statement.  You’re trying to have your ‘woke’ and eat it too.  He didn’t deserve it, but it was his fault.   

For all the faults I find with the guy, he’s all about civil discourse.  The ‘woke’ activists are the a-holes who can’t handle any disagreement with the positions that they hold sacred.  Their allies, like yourself, make excuses for them, even when they’re clearly in the wrong. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 11:40:30 am
This is a contradictory statement.  You’re trying to have your ‘woke’ and eat it too.  He didn’t deserve it, but it was his fault.   

Ok.  If he was a minimally competent academic, he wouldn't be here.

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For all the faults I find with the guy, he’s all about civil discourse.  The ‘woke’ activists are the a-holes who can’t handle any disagreement with the positions that they hold sacred.  Their allies, like yourself, make excuses for them, even when they’re clearly in the wrong.

I disagree.  He wants to be civil, but he misgenders people ... makes unconsidered statements.... he isn't being civil, he is denying people their rights, associating with extremists and overstating his case.  Nice that he wants to be 'civil' but he should lead by example.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 11:46:06 am
Ok.  If he was a minimally competent academic, he wouldn't be here.

I disagree.  He wants to be civil, but he misgenders people ... makes unconsidered statements.... he isn't being civil, he is denying people their rights, associating with extremists and overstating his case.  Nice that he wants to be 'civil' but he should lead by example.

“Misgendering”  is the discussion.  Why should people have to obey to use a bunch of made-up words?

What extremists does he associate with?  Be specific.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 11:54:53 am
“Misgendering”  is the discussion.  Why should people have to obey to use a bunch of made-up words?

I think that people have to agree to a set of rules in order to engage in the discussion.  Jordan misgenders people who are in the discussion, which is offensive to the people who are in the discussion.  He is looking for the right to use whatever pronouns he wants, but he should be respectful in the discussion itself.

Otherwise, I guess it would be ok for other people in the discussion to call him fascist, idiot or whatever they like.  (It's not)

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What extremists does he associate with?  Be specific.

The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 11:55:33 am
Like I say, there is room and even a need for someone like him... early on I had hoped he would be the guy.  But he's not.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 12:09:16 pm
I think that people have to agree to a set of rules in order to engage in the discussion.  Jordan misgenders people who are in the discussion, which is offensive to the people who are in the discussion.  He is looking for the right to use whatever pronouns he wants, but he should be respectful in the discussion itself.

Otherwise, I guess it would be ok for other people in the discussion to call him fascist, idiot or whatever they like.  (It's not)

If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 

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The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.

You’ve gone from ‘extremist’ to ‘objectionable’.  Do you think those two terms are synonymous?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Dia on October 15, 2020, 12:47:41 pm
If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 


Language changes all the time, so if a word became commonly used it wouldn't be a 'made-up term' - I suppose the people who're interested in having a third pronoun to indicate non-gender are hoping for that outcome.

I don't mind calling people what they prefer, so if I met someone that wanted me to refer to them as "zhe', I would try to accommodate that even if I thought it was a bit weird or something.  Also, does spoken 'zhe' sound much like spoken 'she'?

Of course, you might ask me if I'd refer to someone as a pumpkin, if zhe asked me to.  And yes, for the time I was with them, I probably would - unless it was my job to talk them out of referring to themselves as a pumpkin, or if I was on an internet forum in which disagreement was the point of the discussion.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 12:58:34 pm
If anyone thinks that it is a societal norm to use the term ‘zhe’ or another made up term, it’s not.  Hence the discussion about it. 

You have stepped over my point to make your own.  He misgendered people personally while talking to them.  I'm not saying he refused to say 'zhe'.
 He called someone by a word they didn't want to be called by.  That is another reason he's out of consideration for being in this discussion, for many.

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You’ve gone from ‘extremist’ to ‘objectionable’.  Do you think those two terms are synonymous?

Extremists are a subset of the set of objectionable people.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 12:59:20 pm
I think that people have to agree to a set of rules in order to engage in the discussion.  Jordan misgenders people who are in the discussion, which is offensive to the people who are in the discussion.  He is looking for the right to use whatever pronouns he wants, but he should be respectful in the discussion itself.

Otherwise, I guess it would be ok for other people in the discussion to call him fascist, idiot or whatever they like.  (It's not)

The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.

There are many problems with Jordan's behaviour as a debater. Among them are his tendency to raise his voice in an attempt to belittle his opponents. But his big problem is the one he's attempting to build his reputation upon. He's trying to be the atheist and the believer at the same time and then he tries to invent some highly intelligent nuanced explanation for how that is possible. It just isn't of course but his fans are patient with him enough that they will wait in expectation of him delivering a satisfactory explanation. It will 'never' come.

And so that makes their Jordan just a flash in the pan who will never become a Richard Dawkins or a Sam Harris or even a Christopher Hitchens. If anyone thinks otherwise then they are obliged to state just what Jordan has contributed to society.

I'll watch him again on a utube video but it will only be to see somebody like Sam Harris destroy him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 01:01:18 pm
There are many problems with Jordan's behaviour as a debater. Among them are his tendency to raise his voice in an attempt to belittle his opponents. But his big problem is the one he's attempting to build his reputation upon. He's trying to be the atheist and the believer at the same time and then he tries to invent some highly intelligent nuanced explanation for how that is possible. It just isn't of course but his fans are patient with him enough that they will wait in expectation of him delivering a satisfactory explanation. It will 'never' come.

 :D

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And so that makes their Jordan just a flash in the pan who will never become a Richard Dawkins or a Sam Harris or even a Christopher Hitchens. If anyone thinks otherwise then they are obliged to state just what Jordan has contributed to society.

I'll watch him again on a utube video but it will only be to see somebody like Sam Harris destroy him.

I saw him with all of those people and they were SO gentle with him.  My suspicious is that they recognize he brings a giant flock of new curious people to wherever he goes and they want a piece of that.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 01:04:12 pm

Extremists are a subset of the set of objectionable people.

So they’re not synonymous? 

Do you think The Rebel are extremists then?

When I think of ‘extremist’ I think of someone who uses or promotes violence to meet their goals.  Maybe you are using ‘extremist’ in another manner, but I don’t think we should be using a term that, in general usage, refers to people who use or promote violence to refer to people who we just disagree with. 

It’s a tactic that the cancel-culture ‘woke’ folks use often, and you seem to be using it too.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:08:12 pm
:D

I saw him with all of those people and they were SO gentle with him.  My suspicious is that they recognize he brings a giant flock of new curious people to wherever he goes and they want a piece of that.

I think that's a good explanation for the reason why highly intelligent people like Sam will debate him. But I wouldn't condemn Sam or any of them for doing what they do with Jordan. It's a perfectly legitimate way of getting an audience to which they can provide enlightenment. After all, there sit thousands of Christians who are listening carefully to real facts being presented by Sam and company.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 01:10:23 pm
So they’re not synonymous? 

No.

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Do you think The Rebel are extremists then?

Yes.

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When I think of ‘extremist’ I think of someone who uses or promotes violence to meet their goals.  Maybe you are using ‘extremist’ in another manner, but I don’t think we should be using a term that, in general usage, refers to people who use or promote violence to refer to people who we just disagree with. 

I think an extremist is someone with extreme views, such as someone who promotes racial hatred or similar views.

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It’s a tactic that the cancel-culture ‘woke’ folks use often, and you seem to be using it too.

Your mileage may vary, I guess.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 01:13:58 pm
I think that's a good explanation for the reason why highly intelligent people like Sam will debate him. But I wouldn't condemn Sam or any of them for doing what they do with Jordan. It's a perfectly legitimate way of getting an audience to which they can provide enlightenment. After all, there sit thousands of Christians who are listening carefully to real facts being presented by Sam and company.

Petersen’s crowd is a bunch of Christians?   I don’t think you’re reading the room very well.

While Petersen’s take on religion is that it is a necessary cultural phenomenon (for lack of a better term), he never comes out and actually says that God is a real entity.   That’s not a Christian perspective at all.  I think his fans are more about being non-PC, free-speech advocates than they are about being Christians.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:24:54 pm
Petersen’s crowd is a bunch of Christians?   I don’t think you’re reading the room very well.

While Petersen’s take on religion is that it is a necessary cultural phenomenon (for lack of a better term), he never comes out and actually says that God is a real entity.   That’s not a Christian perspective at all.  I think his fans are more about being non-PC, free-speech advocates than they are about being Christians.

I didn't suggest that Jordan's crowd are a bunch of Christians. They're more wannabe intellectuals than that, even though many are expectant Christians.
I think that Jordan offers an expectation for them that their faith can be plausible in the face of evidence that proves it just isn't. They think that Jordan's explaining, doubletalk, and hairsplitting  can make religous faith work.  But of course it never can.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 15, 2020, 01:32:21 pm
I didn't suggest that Jordan's crowd are a bunch of Christians. They're more wannabe intellectuals than that, even though many are expectant Christians.
I think that Jordan offers an expectation for them that their faith can be plausible in the face of evidence that proves it just isn't. They think that Jordan's explaining, doubletalk, and hairsplitting  can make religous faith work.  But of course it never can.

I actually agree with you on this, but you also said ‘there sit thousands of Christians’.   I don’t think that’s accurate at all.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 15, 2020, 01:38:25 pm
I actually agree with you on this, but you also said ‘there sit thousands of Christians’.   I don’t think that’s accurate at all.

Well, you can make it as accurate as you think it fits the description. And also note that many come to see Jordan be taken down by opponents of the caliber of Sam Harris.
How is the crowd split? 50/50 or 60/40 for Harris?
I would attend to see Harris or even better still for me would be Dawkins!  Poor dear Jordan.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:07:23 pm
This is a contradictory statement.  You’re trying to have your ‘woke’ and eat it too.  He didn’t deserve it, but it was his fault.   

For all the faults I find with the guy, he’s all about civil discourse.  The ‘woke’ activists are the a-holes who can’t handle any disagreement with the positions that they hold sacred.  Their allies, like yourself, make excuses for them, even when they’re clearly in the wrong.

Jesus Christ...we agree on something!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 15, 2020, 09:10:22 pm
Jesus Christ...we agree on something!

You're both wrong if you think that the guy who insults people is about 'civil discourse'.

"Jeez, what is wrong with these n***s that they refuse to discuss civilly??"
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:20:44 pm
Right, but he is known chiefly as the person who killed 'God' and morality by dissecting it and breaking it down as a human need.
He killed God but didn't kill morality.  He said God was dead and isn't the maker of our morality any more, we have free will and logic to make our own morality, and this will cause nihilism before you begin to build your moral system based on what you believe is right and wrong, not what the Bible or Church says.

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'Activism' is different, but I see what you are saying.  It has come to mean fighting for identity politics and the onboard morality it contains.  I think that the primary goal of an academic is/should be knowledge.

Yes but also things like climate science.  Even if your hypothesis is wrong you need to report all the data, and not conveniently ignore the data that disproves your "denier" or "alarmist" agenda.
 
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Yes, and politics is difficult between it sits between "pure" knowledge and emotions.  But if it drifts one way or the other then a correction happens.

I think politics is still hard even everyone agrees 100% on all the facts, because people with different moralities (philosophies/ideologies) will still disagree on how to solve whatever problem they're looking at.

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The thing is, he had a foothold in being a contrarian in the service of "civil discourse" and he blew it.  All he would have had to do is be a little more careful with his language.  Did he deserve to be demonized ?  I would say not, but he was the one who blew it.  You can blame the mob, but I don't blame a dog who bites me I blame the master, the leash maker, my wife, you, Waldo... anybody else... but the dog and myself...

He didn't blow it, that's just your opinion.  He's still very popular, he hasn't been working publicly because he's been hospitalized and very sick the last year or so.  He's more careful with his language than anyone, he talks about that all the time, because if he says something in just the wrong way people will slay him for it, because to many people he's the enemy and they're waiting to jump on him on any stumble.  The mob (left or right) attacks anyone who counters their agenda.  It's information warfare out there.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:22:14 pm
Like I say, there is room and even a need for someone like him... early on I had hoped he would be the guy.  But he's not.

He's just a guy, he's not a saviour.  His opinions don't have to 100% have to match yours or mine.  That's the whole point.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:33:36 pm
Ok.  If he was a minimally competent academic, he wouldn't be here.
Because his views offend you?  He's a heretic!  Burn him at the stake!

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I disagree.  He wants to be civil, but he misgenders people
When did he do that?  Link?

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...makes unconsidered statements.... he isn't being civil, he is denying people their rights, associating with extremists and overstating his case.  Nice that he wants to be 'civil' but he should lead by example.
Whose rights is he denying?  His whole argument is that the government is denying HIS rights by enforcing compelled speech.  He's never said he'd not use someone's preferred pronoun, but that the government shouldn't force him to.  I can't name another example of compelled speech in law, can you?

Which extremists is he associating with?  People who happen to follow him on twitter, which is out of his control?  I think you've bought into to the BS social media spin about this guy and not actually what's going on.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:37:48 pm
Language changes all the time, so if a word became commonly used it wouldn't be a 'made-up term' - I suppose the people who're interested in having a third pronoun to indicate non-gender are hoping for that outcome.

I don't mind calling people what they prefer, so if I met someone that wanted me to refer to them as "zhe', I would try to accommodate that even if I thought it was a bit weird or something.  Also, does spoken 'zhe' sound much like spoken 'she'?

Of course, you might ask me if I'd refer to someone as a pumpkin, if zhe asked me to.  And yes, for the time I was with them, I probably would - unless it was my job to talk them out of referring to themselves as a pumpkin, or if I was on an internet forum in which disagreement was the point of the discussion.

I agree it's best to use pronouns that people prefer typically, but that's not Peterson's argument.  Do you think the government should compel us by law to do so?  And if we refuse the punishment is fines, being sued, or men with guns and clubs throwing us in jail.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:40:28 pm
There are many problems with Jordan's behaviour as a debater. Among them are his tendency to raise his voice in an attempt to belittle his opponents.
[/quote]
My only criticism with his behaviour is that at times he can have a short temper and he can lose it on occasion, and so acts less civil.  But it's not like academics on the left are Jesus.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:44:27 pm
So they’re not synonymous? 

Do you think The Rebel are extremists then?

When I think of ‘extremist’ I think of someone who uses or promotes violence to meet their goals.  Maybe you are using ‘extremist’ in another manner, but I don’t think we should be using a term that, in general usage, refers to people who use or promote violence to refer to people who we just disagree with. 

It’s a tactic that the cancel-culture ‘woke’ folks use often, and you seem to be using it too.

I agree, an extremist is someone who uses violence.

The Rebel are really weird illogical people with a fair share of bad arguments who smear a lot with low-brow journalism, but they aren't extremists.  They don't hurt anyone.   They aren't even radicals.  They're just kinda immature and dumb.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:47:27 pm
I didn't suggest that Jordan's crowd are a bunch of Christians. They're more wannabe intellectuals than that, even though many are expectant Christians.
I think that Jordan offers an expectation for them that their faith can be plausible in the face of evidence that proves it just isn't. They think that Jordan's explaining, doubletalk, and hairsplitting  can make religous faith work.  But of course it never can.

This is just nonsense.  I listen to a lot of Jordan's stuff and I'm an athiest.  He does talk about Christianity though and is a Christian but he talks more about Christian mythmaking etc and the moral value and lessons in their stories and whatnot.

I didn't know you were a wannabe intellectual if you listen to the man's perspectives.  Thanks!  Like squiggy said i think you're reading the room wrong.  You clearly are a staunchly leftwing and don't like his views, therefore he and people who listen to him are simpleton retardos to you.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 15, 2020, 09:55:17 pm
The Rebel is a far-right publication that promotes objectionable views.  He jumped into bed with them early on, because they promised to raise money for him.

I think they're just FOX News Canada.  They're definitely strongly rightwing but I wouldn't say far-right, they're right on the edge.  They aren't fascists.  Ezra Levant is Jewish.  His name is Ezra Levant lol.  He's fired someone who made far-right comments.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 16, 2020, 09:29:17 am
He killed God but didn't kill morality.

Yes, you are correct.  What he did was dissect it and see it as a human activity that meets human needs, and framed it as you said correctly.  I wasn't careful enough in my language there.


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Yes but also things like climate science.  Even if your hypothesis is wrong you need to report all the data, and not conveniently ignore the data that disproves your "denier" or "alarmist" agenda.

Well... maybe but I don't think Richard Lindzen or Michael Mann are normally referred to as 'activists'.  They are primarily scientists and if someone tags them as 'activists' I suspect it's an effort to discredit them.  I agree with your principle of intellectual honesty.  Both of these scientists, I'm sure, know the perils of lying.
 
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I think politics is still hard even everyone agrees 100% on all the facts, because people with different moralities (philosophies/ideologies) will still disagree on how to solve whatever problem they're looking at.

Agreed.

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He didn't blow it, that's just your opinion. 

Well, everything here is my opinion really.  Even when I relay facts they're facts that I *believe* are true.

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He's still very popular,

Ok but being popular is under the bar for being able to facilitate discussions such as the ones he tries to broker.  Rush Limbaugh is also 'popular'.

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  He's more careful with his language than anyone, he talks about that all the time, because if he says something in just the wrong way people will slay him for it, because to many people he's the enemy and they're waiting to jump on him on any stumble.

No, he's sloppy with language AND thinking.  I think it was the Joe Rogan podcast where he was talking about imposing social rules on the collective and Rogan caught a contradiction ?  Joe Rogan.  Also there's the ridiculous tendency to call people 'Post Modern Marxists' which sounds incorrect... like saying "Christian Athiest"

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The mob (left or right) attacks anyone who counters their agenda.  It's information warfare out there.

Who cares about the mob ?  If they are so misguided then don't bring them up.  Trump's mob is also idiotic but I don't use them as evidence that Trump's ideas are bad.

He's just a guy, he's not a saviour.  His opinions don't have to 100% have to match yours or mine.  That's the whole point.

I would think that a public intellectual would try to help public conversations happen.  Actually, they should do that.  He fails because he's lazy and appears to offend people on purpose while trying to promote 'civil discourse'. 

Because his views offend you?  He's a heretic!  Burn him at the stake!
When did he do that?  Link?

I have read about it, in the past, in several places.  Quick Google gave me this:
https://thetalon.ca/the-post-truth-politics-of-jordan-petersons-gender-nonbinary-pronoun-debate/

On November 19th, 2016 Dr. Peterson engaged in a debate with UBC’s Dr. Mary Bryson, Senior Associate Dean and Professor in the Faculty of Education, who is gender nonbinary and uses the pronouns “they/them.” ... Peterson repeatedly misgendered Dr. Bryson, referring to them as “she” and “her.


Also, to add: I have been pretty reasonable about my reasons that he should be rejected as anything more than a marginal voice in the discussion.  The 'burn him at the stake !' comment is undermining your assertion that his opponents are unreasonable and his proponents are reasonable.

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Whose rights is he denying?  His whole argument is that the government is denying HIS rights by enforcing compelled speech.

He's denying the right of people to define their gender identity.  He has never been compelled to use a specific word or phrase by the government.

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Which extremists is he associating with?   

The Rebels promotion of race haters, their inclusion of Proud Boys founder and Faith Goldy is a good measure of their extremism.  He signed up to raise money for himself with them.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 16, 2020, 11:55:22 am
This is just nonsense.  I listen to a lot of Jordan's stuff and I'm an athiest.  He does talk about Christianity though and is a Christian but he talks more about Christian mythmaking etc and the moral value and lessons in their stories and whatnot.

And many, if not most are Christians I believe. The political right are Christians believers more often than not.

I didn't know you were a wannabe intellectual if you listen to the man's perspectives.  Thanks!  Like squiggy said i think you're reading the room wrong.  You clearly are a staunchly leftwing and don't like his views, therefore he and people who listen to him are simpleton retardos to you.
[/quote]

I'm definitely leftist as that pertains to Canadian standards but not leftwing. If I was an American you could correctly say I'm leftwing.
I don't consider anybody to be retarded due to their political leaning. But I do consider many rightist views to be wrongheaded and incorrect. Not all, but it would take a calm and nuanced conversation to sort out my pros from my cons.

I'm a bit disappointed in you when you use a word like 'retardos'. However, for now at least I'm still interested in building bridges with you.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 16, 2020, 07:16:13 pm
Well, everything here is my opinion really.  Even when I relay facts they're facts that I *believe* are true.
Ok that's fine.  If you don't like or agree with or are offending by Jordan's opinions or behaviour that's your right.  No provincial human rights commission will haul you in front of a hearing for it.

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No, he's sloppy with language AND thinking.  I think it was the Joe Rogan podcast where he was talking about imposing social rules on the collective and Rogan caught a contradiction ?  Joe Rogan.
So what you're saying is that the standard for which you set for him is perfection.  Do you hold the same standard for thinkers on the left?  That's your prerogative if you do.  He went on Joe Rogan and they didn't call each other names.  He debated a black left-wing professor during a Munk Debate and Jordan was called "a mean mad white man" in anger and very poor taste, and has to deal with the large majority of the mainstream media trying to do everything to undermine and discredit him in endless articles and interviews, so if he loses his cool once in a while i think it's understandable.  If he says something that's incorrect and you or I challenge him on it, great.  That's called civil discourse.  He's not God, he's not a saviour, he doesn't have to be right all the time, I disagree with him on things.

I also don't see him waving the flag of "civil discourse", that sounds like something you've projected on to him.  Like Ben Shapiro, I enjoy listening to him because he provides a different point of view than than the vast majority of the discourse we see, he challenges many of the "holy" assumptions that are shoved down our throats.  And he does it with an intellectual rigor missing from the vast majority of right-leaning commentators who are often a bunch of ignorant boneheads.

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Also there's the ridiculous tendency to call people 'Post Modern Marxists' which sounds incorrect... like saying "Christian Athiest"
Using "cultural marxism" is a bit off as a term, but there's nothing wrong with calling people post-modern marxists if that's what they are.

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Who cares about the mob ?  If they are so misguided then don't bring them up.  Trump's mob is also idiotic but I don't use them as evidence that Trump's ideas are bad.
You're the one you brought it up, i responded to you.

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I would think that a public intellectual would try to help public conversations happen.  Actually, they should do that.
He is having public conversations.  He's going out and doing debates and interviews.  He hasn't called for anyone to be banned or fired or arrested, and he isn't burning cars or looting stores, and he doesn't call people names, unless "cultural marxist" or "post-modernist" is a bad name.

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He fails because he's lazy and appears to offend people on purpose while trying to promote 'civil discourse'.
What are you talking about??  If his opinions are offensive to you or anyone else, that's the whole darn point.  People who interview him or write about him are offensive to him all the time, they attack him and try to discredit him constantly, as you're doing now. I've never seen him purposefully try to offend people just for its own sake, or be unreasonably "provocative".  That's just a meme.  He's not Milo.

Many people don't like his opinions, his narratives are a dangerous threat to their political agendas, and they want to take him down  Do you have anything to say about any of his actual opinions, or do you wish to keep trying to discredit him?

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I have read about it, in the past, in several places.  Quick Google gave me this:
https://thetalon.ca/the-post-truth-politics-of-jordan-petersons-gender-nonbinary-pronoun-debate/
This is a leftwing "alternative" student newspaper in the most leftwing province in Canada that doesn't provide any evidence he "misgendered' anyone.  Let's see the footage.

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Also, to add: I have been pretty reasonable about my reasons that he should be rejected as anything more than a marginal voice in the discussion.  The 'burn him at the stake !' comment is undermining your assertion that his opponents are unreasonable and his proponents are reasonable.
If people disagree with his opinions that's great, that's called civil discourse.  If they just "don't like him", well that's their opinion, but it means nothing.

You can "reject him" all you like, that's your right..  He isn't a marginal voice "in the discussion" (whatever that is) though, because a lot of people are listening to his arguments.  The majority which center around psychology, and about taking responsibility in your life etc. that have had very positive impacts on tens of thousands of people because they write him letters and tell him this after touring lectures.

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He's denying the right of people to define their gender identity.
In what way???  Name one example.  This is a meme told to you in bad faith by the people who wish to discredit him.  And you will repeat these lies to other as you're doing now.  The tactic has worked.

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The Rebels promotion of race haters, their inclusion of Proud Boys founder and Faith Goldy is a good measure of their extremism.  He signed up to raise money for himself with them.

Goldy was fired for things that happened after Jordan appeared on the Rebel.  McGinnis was on the Joe Rogan podcast, is Joe guilty by association?  Is Peterson on the far-right?

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In April 2017, Peterson was denied a Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council (SSHRC) grant for the first time in his career, which he interpreted as retaliation for his statements regarding Bill C-16.[19] However, a media-relations adviser for SSHRC said, "Committees assess only the information contained in the application."[108] In response, Rebel News launched an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign on Peterson's behalf,[109] raising C$195,000 by its end on 6 May, equivalent to over two years of research funding.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 16, 2020, 07:25:45 pm
And many, if not most are Christians I believe. The political right are Christians believers more often than not.
Well that's pretty weak evidence.

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But I do consider many rightist views to be wrongheaded and incorrect. Not all, but it would take a calm and nuanced conversation to sort out my pros from my cons.
Sure so do I, and same here.

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I'm a bit disappointed in you when you use a word like 'retardos'. However, for now at least I'm still interested in building bridges with you.

I only use the colloquial use of such words because I am hilarious and enjoy offensive comedy.  I have nothing against actual retards.  (Again, that's a bad taste joke).

I enjoy building bridges with anyone who is willing to put their hand out to meet halfway, i'm glad you have.  I will never call you, personally, a retardo.  That's the last time I will use that word.  In this thread.  For the rest of today.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 16, 2020, 08:22:05 pm
Ok that's fine.  If you don't like or agree with or are offending by Jordan's opinions or behaviour that's your right.  No provincial human rights commission will haul you in front of a hearing for it.

I don't think I said I dislike or disagree with him, and if I did then fine but it's beside the point.

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So what you're saying is that the standard for which you set for him is perfection.

Hahahaha.  Joe Rogan !

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Do you hold the same standard for thinkers on the left?

I believe so.  But there's nothing like a Peterson on the left as far as I can see. 

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...has to deal with the large majority of the mainstream media trying to do everything to undermine and discredit him in endless articles and interviews, so if he loses his cool once in a while i think it's understandable.

Well, it's not though.  What people say matters and it's hard to step back from that.  Hillary Clinton called her opponents 'deplorables' and lost a large swath of voters.  And it's not the media undermining him and discrediting him if he does it himself.

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If he says something that's incorrect and you or I challenge him on it, great.  That's called civil discourse.

No - civil discourse is being CIVIL.  You can't call people the n-word or call them women if they're not and so on.  You didn't talk about that in your definition.

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He's not God, he's not a saviour, he doesn't have to be right all the time, I disagree with him on things.

I don't think being God or a saviour was ever on the table.  The question is does he hold water as a reasonable public intellectual who has earned the attention of a critical mass of "the" public ?  That's a high pedestal, but - no - he doesn't do it.

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I also don't see him waving the flag of "civil discourse", that sounds like something you've projected on to him.

I think others on this thread said it about him, which is why I commented on it.

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  Like Ben Shapiro, I enjoy listening to him because he provides a different point of view than than the vast majority of the discourse we see, he challenges many of the "holy" assumptions that are shoved down our throats. 

Listen to Sam Harris then.  I disagree with him quite a bit on lots of things, but he is immensely thoughtful and precise with his language and ideas.

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And he does it with an intellectual rigor missing from the vast majority of right-leaning commentators who are often a bunch of ignorant boneheads.

You are misunderstanding something here: a *commentator* and an *intellectual* are very far apart and have been since ... well the 80s or early 90s I would say. 

In case you missed it: there is no leftist intellectual who is in the ballpark of what I'm calling for either.

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Using "cultural marxism" is a bit off as a term, but there's nothing wrong with calling people post-modern marxists if that's what they are.

It's an oxymoron, though, right ?  Post-modernism is post-Marxism.  The Marxists I know of are anti-woke. 

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You're the one you brought it up, i responded to you.

I used it because I felt you were tacitly referring to the mob, or at least popular whims, with your statements on page 1:

"Socrates was executed for "corrupting the youth".  Jesus was nailed to a cross.  Who are we crucifying today?  What are our holy beliefs that only heretics question?"

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He is having public conversations.  He's going out and doing debates and interviews.  He hasn't called for anyone to be banned or fired or arrested, and he isn't burning cars or looting stores, and he doesn't call people names, unless "cultural marxist" or "post-modernist" is a bad name.

Your bar is too low.  A public intellectual needs to be held to a higher standard than "not burning cars", seriously.

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What are you talking about??  If his opinions are offensive to you or anyone else, that's the whole darn point.

He insults people to their face, is my point.  Not "he says things to which people take offense".

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you're doing now. I've never seen him purposefully try to offend people just for its own sake, or be unreasonably "provocative".  That's just a meme.  He's not Milo.

But he does.


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Many people don't like his opinions, his narratives are a dangerous threat to their political agendas, and they want to take him down  Do you have anything to say about any of his actual opinions, or do you wish to keep trying to discredit him?

I have been very clear as to why he's to be rejected as a public intellectual.

1. He insults people on purpose
2. He aligns himself with The Rebel, an anti-intellectual and anti-human endeavour that exists to disunify people and spread falsehoods
3. He's sloppy with his language and his thinking

I'm not saying he should be killed, or that I dislike him personally.  I'm saying he's unfit to lead public discussions, except to continue to sow disunity and extend the culture war.  At the beginning of his career as a public intellectual, it wasn't so.  And as time goes on, he shows himself to be a poor thinker, a hypocrite in terms of his moral stance and his didactic advice to others.. and kind of a sad individual to boot.

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This is a leftwing "alternative" student newspaper in the most leftwing province in Canada that doesn't provide any evidence he "misgendered' anyone.  Let's see the footage.

I gave you a source.  Do you want another one ?  Does this mean that if there is evidence of what I claim, you will change your opinion on him somewhat ?  I would like to know if I'm just on a wild goose chase, given that I gave you a cite already.

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If people disagree with his opinions that's great, that's called civil discourse.  If they just "don't like him", well that's their opinion, but it means nothing.

You keep missing the other option - that his reasoning and his thinking is flawed.  Whether or not people like him, or his opinions is beside the point really.  I respect people with whom I disagree, if their opinions have enough basis to be reasonably close to valid.

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You can "reject him" all you like, that's your right..  He isn't a marginal voice "in the discussion" (whatever that is) though, because a lot of people are listening to his arguments. 

He's marginal because he isn't generally acceptable.  It's like saying Rush Limbaugh is an important voice in the trans rights debate because he has millions of listeners.

 
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Goldy was fired for things that happened after Jordan appeared on the Rebel.  McGinnis was on the Joe Rogan podcast, is Joe guilty by association?  Is Peterson on the far-right?

The Rebel didn't have Gavin McInnes and Faith Goldy as guests - they worked there.  It's a ****-slinging organization and doesn't deserve to be considered legitimate.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 18, 2020, 06:58:15 pm
The Rebel didn't have Gavin McInnes and Faith Goldy as guests - they worked there.  It's a ****-slinging organization and doesn't deserve to be considered legitimate.

We can say anything we like about anyone.  We can say Peterson hangs out with Nazis every weekend and throws up the salute, but that has nothing to do with the merit of his individual arguments.  Attacking the character, tone, motives, and who he may have associated with on one occasion, these are ad hominem arguments.  This fallacy is designed to discredit the person making the argument, and not the argument itself.  And it's fine to not like him personally, it's just not as interesting.

I find it a lot more interesting talking about his arguments about post-modernists dominating academia, and the causes of the gender wage gap., and how people have to grow up and take more responsibility in order to better their lives.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 18, 2020, 07:15:41 pm
We can say anything we like about anyone.  We can say Peterson hangs out with Nazis every weekend and throws up the salute, but that has nothing to do with the merit of his individual arguments.

Ok, but we haven't spoken about any of his individual arguments here, either.

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  Attacking the character, tone, motives, and who he may have associated with on one occasion, these are ad hominem arguments.

Again, we're not talking about his arguments we are talking about the man and where he fits in, as some kind of public figure.

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  This fallacy is designed to discredit the person making the argument, and not the argument itself.  And it's fine to not like him personally, it's just not as interesting.

See above.

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I find it a lot more interesting talking about his arguments about post-modernists dominating academia, and the causes of the gender wage gap., and how people have to grow up and take more responsibility in order to better their lives.

Well... some of those are arguments and some of it is that self-help stuff he puts out there, but sure.  I think that a public moralist would be a great thing right now, and a Canadian conservative would be a perfect fit to host some kind of consensus-building on whatever moral commonality we have these days.

But he's not it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 18, 2020, 10:03:03 pm
Well... some of those are arguments and some of it is that self-help stuff he puts out there, but sure.  I think that a public moralist would be a great thing right now, and a Canadian conservative would be a perfect fit to host some kind of consensus-building on whatever moral commonality we have these days.

But he's not it.

People aren't interested in consensus building, largely, which is unfortunate.  I don't think that's what Peterson has been doing or even tried to do either, at least with his political arguments.  He's been often a political activist essentially, based on issues where in his perception the left is going too far in some cases.  So in that sense, you're right.  He's not going to bring anyone together.  Because when you fight for your rights or other people's rights, very often the people who oppose you will hate you and try to destroy you.

We're in an ideological war in an era of divisive identity politics.  The left, as is their job, is pushing for the rights of the oppressed (Women, racial minorities, LGBT etc.) because sometimes the right goes too far.  This is good in general, but there's times when the left goes too far pushing back and where they infringe on the rights of those who have traditionally held power, such as white people, straight and cis people, and men etc. 

Any decent person wants women to have the same employment opportunities as men, the question is in how that's achieved?  Do you install gender quotas in fields where there is a gender disparity?  Some schools and employers have.  So then some feminists argue that if say 80% of engineers or IT professionals are men, that shows some kind of gender discrimination against women, which needs to be rectified with quotas that deny men with more merit of a job and give it to women.  Well if you're going to discriminate against someone, you need more evidence than unequal gender numbers in the workforce.  You need to show it is due to discrimination, and not due to different choices women are making.  Peterson has always argued for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.  But some feminists don't want to hear that, and they get very angry, because it's a threat to their interests, and in their view their rights.  And if you put forward arguments and data that show that not all gender disparities in the workforce are due to discrimination, people will get angry and call you a sexist etc.  And some of these people will try to cancel you and get your speeches shut down etc.  Because it's war.  And when you're Peterson and you get your back up against these kinds of constant attacks and insinuations I guess sometimes you can lose your temper and not be as civil as you should be.

I don't listen to Peterson because he's got the magic answers to everything, I listen because he brings educated opinions often with data that make arguments against opinions and policies most other people are too afraid to question because we're all too politically correct and afraid to be called a sexist/racist/transphobe and lose our jobs and friends for it etc and become the pariah he's become.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 19, 2020, 09:20:31 am
People aren't interested in consensus building, largely, which is unfortunate.

Well, the alternative is to grumble forever until the status quo changes, ignore people who have problems with the law, or war I guess.

You are saying that our liberal society can't solve this problem.  Ok.

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  I don't think that's what Peterson has been doing or even tried to do either, at least with his political arguments.  He's been often a political activist essentially, based on issues where in his perception the left is going too far in some cases.  So in that sense, you're right.  He's not going to bring anyone together.  Because when you fight for your rights or other people's rights, very often the people who oppose you will hate you and try to destroy you.

But convincing people who are in the middle is part of consensus building.  If he's preaching to the converted, and that's all he ever intends to do he's even more useless than I suspected.  But I doubt that he's doing that.


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We're in an ideological war in an era of divisive identity politics.  The left, as is their job, is pushing for the rights of the oppressed (Women, racial minorities, LGBT etc.) because sometimes the right goes too far.  This is good in general, but there's times when the left goes too far pushing back and where they infringe on the rights of those who have traditionally held power, such as white people, straight and cis people, and men etc. 

Well thanks for the play-by-play.  Yes, I have been alive for more than 30 years (I picked George Bush Sr.'s calling out 'political correctness' as the start of this) so ... yes I'm aware of the landscape here.  What (I think) Peterson represented, at the start, was the opportunity to revisit our principles and move the discussion forward.

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Any decent person wants ....

And now you are getting into the discussion of the arguments themselves.  That's fine but not as interesting as a way forward IMO.

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  Peterson has always argued for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.  But some feminists don't want to hear that, and they get very angry, because it's a threat to their interests, and in their view their rights.

That's one facet of a very long and unsolvable fog of social issues. 

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I don't listen to Peterson because he's got the magic answers to everything, I listen because he brings educated opinions often with data that make arguments against opinions and policies most other people are too afraid to question because we're all too politically correct and afraid to be called a sexist/racist/transphobe and lose our jobs and friends for it etc and become the pariah he's become.

Ok.  I for one don't like to listen to editorialists with whom I agree, at least not too much.  It's pretty clear that a moral case will always fail in this environment, where there are no principles or central leaders.  You said it yourself: people aren't interested in consensus building.

That is where the moralists should focus their criticism - on an expanding set of people who refuse to listen to others.  Peterson covers some of that, but - again - he's not the guy. 

 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 19, 2020, 12:28:04 pm


I don't listen to Peterson because he's got the magic answers to everything, I listen because he brings educated opinions often with data that make arguments against opinions and policies most other people are too afraid to question because we're all too politically correct and afraid to be called a sexist/racist/transphobe and lose our jobs and friends for it etc and become the pariah he's become.

As with so many rightists of Jordan's ilk, he restrains himself so he can remain at least politically correct enough when in a debate with Sam Harris for instance. But he always is able to convince me that he wants to go much further if he was able to gain momentum with a change in the political atmosphere.

What is it about the rightist political agenda that can be considered acceptable in the 21st. century? What does Jordan seriously promote that could be acceptable for Canada?

Can you accept that Canada is getting it closer to being right about most issues than any other country in the world? If so then you'll understand that's a big challenge to rightists such as Jordan.

Otherwise, it's been an interesting discussion on Jordan from all who have taken part.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 19, 2020, 11:40:59 pm
As with so many rightists of Jordan's ilk, he restrains himself so he can remain at least politically correct enough when in a debate with Sam Harris for instance. But he always is able to convince me that he wants to go much further if he was able to gain momentum with a change in the political atmosphere.

It's interesting to be critical of a guy for things he's never said.

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What is it about the rightist political agenda that can be considered acceptable in the 21st. century? What does Jordan seriously promote that could be acceptable for Canada?

Not allowing the radical left minority to morally bully us into accepting unreasonable proposals just because we'd be unfairly labelled a racist or sexist or homophobe if we disagreed.  That's one example.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 12:11:35 pm
It's interesting to be critical of a guy for things he's never said.

Not allowing the radical left minority to morally bully us into accepting unreasonable proposals just because we'd be unfairly labelled a racist or sexist or homophobe if we disagreed.  That's one example.

Good for you on coming up with something! But that which you imply contains no specifics and to provide those is where the questioning begins.

Can you do that? I think the best choice would be on the 'racist' accusations so let's go there. However, if you disagree then we can go with either of the others.

And fwiw, I do believe that the left can be guilty of doing the same thing and then possibly being unfairly labelled. Can you provide the example in the context in which Jordan has raised it and pursued it? We may have some common ground on this if you can fill the bill, so to speak.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 20, 2020, 01:39:46 pm
Can you do that? I think the best choice would be on the 'racist' accusations so let's go there. However, if you disagree then we can go with either of the others.

And fwiw, I do believe that the left can be guilty of doing the same thing and then possibly being unfairly labelled. Can you provide the example in the context in which Jordan has raised it and pursued it? We may have some common ground on this if you can fill the bill, so to speak.

Any decent person wants women to have the same employment opportunities as men, the question is in how that's achieved?  Do you install gender quotas in fields where there is a gender disparity?  Some schools and employers have.  So then some feminists argue that if say 80% of engineers or IT professionals are men, or there is any gender disparity in any field where women are the minority, that shows some kind of gender discrimination against women, which needs to be rectified with quotas that deny men with more merit of a job and give it to women.  Well if you're going to discriminate against someone, you need more evidence than unequal gender numbers in the workforce.  You need to show it is due to discrimination, and not due to different choices women are making.  Which Peterson argues.  Peterson has always argued for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.  But some feminists don't want to hear that, and they get very angry.  Peterson argues some of it may be due to discrimination, or it may also or only involve differences in career choices.

He argued the data shows women more often prefer working with people, and men more often refer working with things (there are always many exceptions of course).  There are more female medical doctors than male, for instance.  And psychologists, social workers, teachers, and nurses etc.  So to look at gender disparities we need to look at multiple variables and not just one variable by crying "sexism" every time.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 02:33:29 pm
Any decent person wants women to have the same employment opportunities as men, the question is in how that's achieved?  Do you install gender quotas in fields where there is a gender disparity?  Some schools and employers have.  So then some feminists argue that if say 80% of engineers or IT professionals are men, or there is any gender disparity in any field where women are the minority, that shows some kind of gender discrimination against women, which needs to be rectified with quotas that deny men with more merit of a job and give it to women.  Well if you're going to discriminate against someone, you need more evidence than unequal gender numbers in the workforce.  You need to show it is due to discrimination, and not due to different choices women are making.  Which Peterson argues.  Peterson has always argued for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.  But some feminists don't want to hear that, and they get very angry.  Peterson argues some of it may be due to discrimination, or it may also or only involve differences in career choices.

He argued the data shows women more often prefer working with people, and men more often refer working with things (there are always many exceptions of course).  There are more female medical doctors than male, for instance.  And psychologists, social workers, teachers, and nurses etc.  So to look at gender disparities we need to look at multiple variables and not just one variable by crying "sexism" every time.

I think you've very ably restated Jordan's case for him and I have to commend you for that!

But wait!

Quote
Any decent person wants women to have the same employment opportunities as men,..............

First of all, is that really true? And secondly, is that the real point of contention here?

So first, is it true that employers correct the inequity in pay for equal work done?  No, they do not in many cases if not most.

And second, the 'employment opportunity' to which you speak isn't the property of the left to correct. So assuming that it actually does exist, it becomes the property of employers to correct.

Social responsibility is the property of the left and is so by definition. "Socialism".  A socially responsible person won't, or shouldn't, make accusations based on preferences being different between men and women.  The extent to which it exists is a given in my opinion and I would criticize any person claiming social responsibility if they don't take that into consideration.

If an employer chooses a man for the job over a woman then in some cases his choice will be justified. For the sake of the conversation I'll refer to a ditchdigger. First, the woman doesn't want the job and secondly she isn't physically capable of doing the job. And so discrimination isn't a  valid issue to hold against an employer.

But let's now take the example of an employer consistently choosing men over women for  engineering jobs.  That can be validly called discrimination unless the employer can make a case for it not being so.

In either case, it's not the left making the decisions, it's the rightist.  The leftist, or at least the true leftist will do the socially responsible thing and not discriminate. After all, it's the leftist that makes an issue over discrimination.

Unfortunately, your explanation still lacks the specific case upon which Jordan is motivated to object to the claim of discrimination.

I hope you'll see that I still don't totally disagree with what you've stated on Jordan's behalf, I've just questioned whether or not his talking point is valid.

And now to the point, or at least the point as I see it. Jordan is trying to justify unequal pay for equal work and he fails to lay the responsibility for correcting that wrong on the employer. Or, as you also suggest, not laying the blame squarely on the employer who is guilty of discrimination. Supposing that does happen?

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 20, 2020, 02:36:00 pm
Any decent person wants women to have the same employment opportunities as men, the question is in how that's achieved?  Do you install gender quotas in fields where there is a gender disparity?  Some schools and employers have.  So then some feminists argue that if say 80% of engineers or IT professionals are men, or there is any gender disparity in any field where women are the minority, that shows some kind of gender discrimination against women, which needs to be rectified with quotas that deny men with more merit of a job and give it to women.

Is this actually a widespread belief ?  It seems like our open marketplace of ideas is actually highlighting the phenomenon and maybe doing something about it with messaging.  Who is doing this and how is it going really ?

Quote
  Well if you're going to discriminate against someone, you need more evidence than unequal gender numbers in the workforce.  You need to show it is due to discrimination, and not due to different choices women are making.  Which Peterson argues.  Peterson has always argued for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.  But some feminists don't want to hear that, and they get very angry.  Peterson argues some of it may be due to discrimination, or it may also or only involve differences in career choices.

That's interesting.  But this is also not a field where he can garner an audience of people who don't already follow him.

Quote
He argued the data shows women more often prefer working with people, and men more often refer working with things (there are always many exceptions of course).  There are more female medical doctors than male, for instance.  And psychologists, social workers, teachers, and nurses etc.  So to look at gender disparities we need to look at multiple variables and not just one variable by crying "sexism" every time.

Wow.  Another completely specious argument from Peterson.  "Women prefer working with people"... answers it all... wow.

Anyway, he's back now... supposedly better again...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 02:45:59 pm


Wow.  Another completely specious argument from Peterson.  "Women prefer working with people"... answers it all... wow.

Anyway, he's back now... supposedly better again...

I too suspected that to be a specious point but I didn't jump on it because I see more important issues on which to jump on Jordan. I truly believe Jordan's real issue is in defending unequal pay for women for equal work. If he said so then that would make him honest. He could at least state some justifications for employers in some instances. For example, if a woman persists in demanding equal pay for packing 100 pound sacks of potatoes around then she will have to be content with less pay.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 20, 2020, 02:52:21 pm
jump on Jordan.

Jump on Jordan would be a great talk show.  WKRP in Cincinatti's Gordon Jump (who played Mr. Carlson) could sit in a swivel chair, on a 1970s TVO set and postulate on Jordan.

Quote
I truly believe Jordan's real issue is in defending unequal pay for women for equal work. If he said so then that would make him honest. He could at least state some justifications for employers in some instances. For example, if a woman persists in demanding equal pay for packing 100 pound sacks of potatoes around then she will have to be content with less pay.

Yeah, except... they hire weaker men to work beside stronger men too.  What does it matter to legislate such things really ?  Women make less money anyway and there's no way to balance that, assuming the maternity part is not the reason.

I would rather educate people through positive shaming, and eliminate secrecy and superstition in pricing and wages, then have the government top off people. 

Could Peterson even step into a conversation where math is involved though ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 03:02:49 pm
Jump on Jordan would be a great talk show.  WKRP in Cincinatti's Gordon Jump (who played Mr. Carlson) could sit in a swivel chair, on a 1970s TVO set and postulate on Jordan.

Yeah, except... they hire weaker men to work beside stronger men too.  What does it matter to legislate such things really ?  Women make less money anyway and there's no way to balance that, assuming the maternity part is not the reason.

I would rather educate people through positive shaming, and eliminate secrecy and superstition in pricing and wages, then have the government top off people. 

Could Peterson even step into a conversation where math is involved though ?

To be completely honest, I would hire a man instead of a woman if I suspected that maternity leave would be a consideration. I've been a small business owner and my business wouldn't have survived that.

But there's an answer for that issue too. Give men maternity leave benefits. Or run a business that doesn't include maternity leave.
Capitalism allows for that. No union and no minimum wage scale.

I'm not a capitalist, I'm a socially responsible capitalist.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 20, 2020, 04:25:05 pm

Wow.  Another completely specious argument from Peterson.  "Women prefer working with people"... answers it all... wow.

You don’t think career preferences are different between women and men?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 20, 2020, 05:12:27 pm
I hope you'll see that I still don't totally disagree with what you've stated on Jordan's behalf, I've just questioned whether or not his talking point is valid.

And now to the point, or at least the point as I see it. Jordan is trying to justify unequal pay for equal work and he fails to lay the responsibility for correcting that wrong on the employer. Or, as you also suggest, not laying the blame squarely on the employer who is guilty of discrimination. Supposing that does happen?

The problem is Jordan has never made such an argument.  He's said that sometimes people including women are discriminated against and that's wrong.  His problem is with people who whenever they see a gender discrepancy in favour of men it is automatically assumed to be caused by discrimination.  And sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.  And sometimes it is and also involves other factors.

To say the gender wage gap never involves discrimination is wrong, and to do it's completely due to discrimination is wrong.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 20, 2020, 05:21:37 pm
Wow.  Another completely specious argument from Peterson.  "Women prefer working with people"... answers it all... wow.

Anyway, he's back now... supposedly better again...

No it doesn't explain everything, but it might explain why more men go into engineering and more women go into medicine etc.

Of course, more women graduate from university, but few say men are being discriminated against in this regard.  Personal preference is a variable that matters.

So is having babies and spending less time in the workplace thus, or being more agreeable in contract negotiations.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 05:23:32 pm
The problem is Jordan has never made such an argument.  He's said that sometimes people including women are discriminated against and that's wrong.  His problem is with people who whenever they see a gender discrepancy in favour of men it is automatically assumed to be caused by discrimination.  And sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.  And sometimes it is and also involves other factors.

No, Jordan wouldn't want to call it that. So in reality Jordan isn't making any point worth defending.

To say the gender wage gap never involves discrimination is wrong, and to (say)do it's completely due to discrimination is wrong.
[/quote]

That's not really saying very much. I think that Jordan wants to say a lot more, and will do so if he gets some wind behind him. I'm not at all impressed with his schtick and you haven't provided anything to change my mind. He's likely in it for the money and not much else.

There's really nothing of any importance in the conservative or Conservative agenda that they can go forward with anymore. Certainly not healthcare reform but if you have something to propose I'm always interested in hearing it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 20, 2020, 05:27:17 pm
I truly believe Jordan's real issue is in defending unequal pay for women for equal work.

He doesn't do that.  He says there's more than one variable in a multi-variable analysis.  But even saying that makes someone a sexist these days.

Here he talks about the wage gap and other gender issues:

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=316
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 20, 2020, 05:32:47 pm
No, Jordan wouldn't want to call it that. So in reality Jordan isn't making any point worth defending.

To say the gender wage gap never involves discrimination is wrong, and to (say)do it's completely due to discrimination is wrong.


That's not really saying very much. I think that Jordan wants to say a lot more, and will do so if he gets some wind behind him. I'm not at all impressed with his schtick and you haven't provided anything to change my mind. He's likely in it for the money and not much else.

There's really nothing of any importance in the conservative or Conservative agenda that they can go forward with anymore. Certainly not healthcare reform but if you have something to propose I'm always interested in hearing it.

Yes you think he has an evil agenda based on things you think he wants to say but never does.  So he brings actual research and data to many of his claims, and you bring "hidden agendas" and totally unproven claims based on things created in your own mind.

This is what people said about Harper before he was elected and it never happened.  I'm not saying i'm a fan of Harper btw, but I'm saying people project a lot of BS based on zero evidence.  To you, all conservatives are just nefarious fools.  No point in having a discussion with those prejudicial assumptions.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 05:43:04 pm
He doesn't do that.  He says there's more than one variable in a multi-variable analysis.  But even saying that makes someone a sexist these days.

Here he talks about the wage gap and other gender issues:

https://youtu.be/aMcjxSThD54?t=316

It's the agenda of employers whose interest is making more profit. Some are inscrutable enough to stoop pretty low.

In my final analysis, Jordan lost me when he attempted to say he's not a Christian but he believes in the Christian god. Or however he tries to frame it. Sam Harris got him on that one too. And that's the reason he, a very intelligent person, would be more interested in being the darling of the right for the money in it.

You see Gorgeous, a darling of the right can't possibly be an atheist. He loses half his support if he tries that.
But a very intelligent person such as Jordan can't possibly be a Christian believer when he presumes to be able to debate very intelligent opponents like Sam.

Big problem for rightists of all schticks! They're disqualified before they even start!

And please! Don't even try to tell me that Christianity isn't the property of the right for the most part.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 20, 2020, 05:51:18 pm
Yes you think he has an evil agenda based on things you think he wants to say but never does.  So he brings actual research and data to many of his claims, and you bring "hidden agendas" and totally unproven claims based on things created in your own mind.

This is what people said about Harper before he was elected and it never happened.  I'm not saying i'm a fan of Harper btw, but I'm saying people project a lot of BS based on zero evidence.  To you, all conservatives are just nefarious fools.  No point in having a discussion with those prejudicial assumptions.

Conservatism is nefariously foolish until they can present an alternative agenda to socially responsible capitalism, as is practiced in Canada. The challenge to you will always remain the same.

See my other post on the right owning religion and how that doesn't work for anybody trying to carry on a decent conversation that doesn't involve the supernatural.

The modern world has outgrown religious nonsense but the US still hangs on. That, sadly, means we've outgrown conservatism too.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 20, 2020, 06:58:39 pm
No it doesn't explain everything, but it might explain why more men go into engineering and more women go into medicine etc.

It might, but a professor should know about things like cause, correlation, and such.  This kind of speculation doesn't help the argument at all.  If there are differences in physiology that could explain inclinations to areas of knowledge, the assessment and analysis must be fathoms deeper than what he offers here.

If you agree with his thesis, even, he's doing it a disservice by presenting it with only surface level evidence.

 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 22, 2020, 03:16:13 pm
Conservatism is nefariously foolish until they can present an alternative agenda to socially responsible capitalism, as is practiced in Canada. The challenge to you will always remain the same.

See my other post on the right owning religion and how that doesn't work for anybody trying to carry on a decent conversation that doesn't involve the supernatural.

The modern world has outgrown religious nonsense but the US still hangs on. That, sadly, means we've outgrown conservatism too.

I have no problem with people who believe in God or are religious in their personal lives, I have a problem when they try to ram it down everyone's throats and it makes for bad policy that most people don't want, like say Andrew Scheer.  I would suspect you feel the same i hope.

I am also for "socially responsible capitalism".  Meaning capitalism where there is robust regulations to protect people and the environment from greed & exploitation and an adequate social safety net for those in need.

I am also for responsible government budgets & spending, people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, general law and order, standing up to foreign actors with bad intentions against Canada or otherwise take advantage of our kindness etc.  Which is to say, i'm a moderate.

Saying "progressivism is bad" or "conservatism is bad" is too vague for me.  There's a thousand political stances under those umbrellas, I'd rather deal with those on a case-by-case basis than start over-generalizing.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 22, 2020, 03:23:18 pm
It might, but a professor should know about things like cause, correlation, and such.  This kind of speculation doesn't help the argument at all.  If there are differences in physiology that could explain inclinations to areas of knowledge, the assessment and analysis must be fathoms deeper than what he offers here.

If you agree with his thesis, even, he's doing it a disservice by presenting it with only surface level evidence.

He references studies in the research literature.  He has a PhD in clinical psychology, he's not making stuff up.  I'm not sure he references physiology, but he does talk about the nature vs nuture debate a bit if I recall.  His focus is on career preference.

You're asking him for evidence but you keep making up things he supposedly says without evidence.  If your opinions of him are based on what twitter says about him rather than what he actually says then i'm not interested in that convo.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on October 22, 2020, 03:37:44 pm
He references studies in the research literature.  He has a PhD in clinical psychology, he's not making stuff up.  I'm not sure he references physiology, but he does talk about the nature vs nuture debate a bit if I recall.  His focus is on career preference.

Yeah, but so what ?  He cites a study and then uses it to explain a complex cultural phenomenon... the 2nd part - the part he added - is loose and unsubstantiated.

Quote
You're asking him for evidence but you keep making up things he supposedly says without evidence. 

Like what ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 22, 2020, 05:12:50 pm
I have no problem with people who believe in God or are religious in their personal lives, I have a problem when they try to ram it down everyone's throats and it makes for bad policy that most people don't want, like say Andrew Scheer.  I would suspect you feel the same i hope.

I feel much the same but that which you consider 'ramming it down everybody's throats could mean something quite different from what it means to me. I have some problems with even religions still existing for a few reasons, even though I'm not actively working to eliminate it. I think we're probably pretty close to agreement on that.

Quote
I am also for "socially responsible capitalism".  Meaning capitalism where there is robust regulations to protect people and the environment from greed & exploitation and an adequate social safety net for those in need.

I could say the same thing on that.

Quote
I am also for responsible government budgets & spending, people taking personal responsibility for their own actions, general law and order, standing up to foreign actors with bad intentions against Canada or otherwise take advantage of our kindness etc.  Which is to say, i'm a moderate.

Agreed, as long as the devils aren't in the details.

Quote
Saying "progressivism is bad" or "conservatism is bad" is too vague for me.  There's a thousand political stances under those umbrellas, I'd rather deal with those on a case-by-case basis than start over-generalizing.

Yes, I basically agree but! I have a lot of difficulty with trying to determine what 'conservatism' actually means now in this 21st. century. Can conservatives actually lay claim to some political philosophy as theirs? What could it be for you, supposing you consider it to be something?

'Progressivism' is an erroneous term that seems to me to be used in a wrong context by mostly Americans. In my opinion 'progress' can't become a derogatory term.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 22, 2020, 05:41:03 pm
Yes, I basically agree but! I have a lot of difficulty with trying to determine what 'conservatism' actually means now in this 21st. century. Can conservatives actually lay claim to some political philosophy as theirs? What could it be for you, supposing you consider it to be something?

"Conservatism" is too broad a term for it to mean much of anything to judge good vs bad.  It could mean social conservatism, economic conservatism, libertarianism, rightwing populism, evangelicalism etc.

I share some conservative views, even some social conservative views, and yet i'm an atheist and don't like the GOP at all.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 22, 2020, 05:58:52 pm
"Conservatism" is too broad a term for it to mean much of anything to judge good vs bad.  It could mean social conservatism, economic conservatism, libertarianism, rightwing populism, evangelicalism etc.

I share some conservative views, even some social conservative views, and yet i'm an atheist and don't like the GOP at all.

I'm not asking what it could mean, I'm specifically asking for some particular political platform that can be considered their property.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 23, 2020, 01:30:32 pm
Last night I watched the utube video on Peterson and Dillahunty's conversation. (debate)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgAoQBgM558

It's a little long at 1hr. and 45 but I don't regret spending the time on it. I was quite surprised to see how poorly Jordan performed against Dillahunty, who probably can't be said to be Jordan's intellectual equal. So I had to wonder if Jordan was ill or becoming ill, or there was some other reason for his poor performance?

Frankly, Jordan appeared to be sarcastic and mocking of Dillahunty at times and was quite remarkably put down on one occasion by Dillahunty.

For those fans of Jordan Peterson who care to watch this, maybe they can come up for an opinion on why Jordan performed so badly. And of course that is, if they perceive that he did perform badly.

It was almost  as if Peterson was trying to demonstrate that he was lowering himself in some way by even recognizing Dillahunty as a debating opponent.

However, considering the topic being discussed, there's little doubt that Dillahunty knows his stuff as well as anyone and that begs the question on whether or not Peterson was just completely outclassed?

If anybody can afford the time to watch this one, I would find your comments very interesting. What could possibly be the reason why Peterson allowed himself to be so completely outclassed by Dillahunty?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 23, 2020, 04:00:46 pm
If it turns out that nobody has the time to do the whole hour and three-quarters, here's a six and a half minute vid on some of the highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHEBDnAnjw

What the hell had gone wrong with Jordan? Or is that the best he has to offer on religion/God debates?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 25, 2020, 02:33:03 pm
Too bad nobody has enough confidence in Jordan Peterson to defend him now.

He would be finished if it wasn't for the value he is to debaters who are in it for the money. His religious convictions and the fact that he couldn't reconcile that with reality has been his downfall. Possibly also his mental breakdown too.

Will he try to make a comeback? Right now he looks like death warned over.

It that's it for this thread, thanks to those who contributed. I've learned something from it on Peterson.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 06:22:44 pm
How delightful that none of his supporters want to defend the **** anymore! He's literally fallen off the rails and it wont be a surprise if we hear about his accidental ............................ whatever?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on October 27, 2020, 06:34:11 pm
How delightful that none of his supporters want to defend the **** anymore! He's literally fallen off the rails and it wont be a surprise if we hear about his accidental ............................ whatever?

He can be an ****, i'll agree with that.  I think his chief value in the public realm is as it long has been:  a clinical psychologist.  He's helped thousands upon thousands of people with his book and lectures, they thank him all the time for helping turn their lives around.  A lot of young men too.  Our boys and men are in crisis.  Killing each other, killing other innocent people, filling up our jails, committing suicide and other "deaths of despair" through substance abuse.  For many, he's the no-nonsense father figure they needed but never had.

Weird to have a discussion about somebody if all you feel is hatred for them.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 06:45:50 pm
He can be an ****, i'll agree with that.  I think his chief value in the public realm is as it long has been:  a clinical psychologist.  He's helped thousands upon thousands of people with his book and lectures, they thank him all the time for helping turn their lives around.  A lot of young men too.  Our boys and men are in crisis.  Killing each other, killing other innocent people, filling up our jails, committing suicide and other "deaths of despair" through substance abuse.  For many, he's the no-nonsense father figure they needed but never had.

Weird to have a discussion about somebody if all you feel is hatred for them.
I welcome your balls back! He should have stuck with being a clinical psychologist. He's made a mess of his position of being the debater who was to be the darling of the right.

And all the other positive you attribute to him are debatable at best. He after all owned none of it what wasn't already owned by sincere and socially responsible people.

I very much doubt that he'll be back.

As to me discussing somebody I feel hatred and disgust toward? It's the norm of course and it is applied to Trump, Biden, Trudeau, Horgan, and others by you as much as anyone else.

And now if you want to get a true picture of Peterson, take a chance on watching the full video in which Dillahunty destroyed him completely.

And fwiw, it was in a time in which Peterson couldn't be claiming mental issues!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on November 05, 2020, 12:33:10 pm
Hey Monty

I happened to come across this in my YouTubular travels:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIAAkSNtqo

It's JP testifying as to why he hates girly-men (I am paraphrasing ;) )

Anyway, good news is that I thought his initial and main point was not as crazy as I had suspected.  He indicated that his concerns about forced pronouncement laws were based on a post on the Ontario HRC site ... uh ... that was taken down.  Ok, benefit of the doubt and all that so 1/2 a point for him.

And after that his argument goes to **** pretty quickly.   Something about social constructs not being a good basis for legislating against descrimination.   ???  So ... religion, race, creed, heritage shouldn't be protected against discrimination... I ... guess ... ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on November 05, 2020, 02:15:00 pm
Hey Monty

I happened to come across this in my YouTubular travels:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIAAkSNtqo

It's JP testifying as to why he hates girly-men (I am paraphrasing ;) )

Anyway, good news is that I thought his initial and main point was not as crazy as I had suspected.  He indicated that his concerns about forced pronouncement laws were based on a post on the Ontario HRC site ... uh ... that was taken down.  Ok, benefit of the doubt and all that so 1/2 a point for him.

And after that his argument goes to **** pretty quickly.   Something about social constructs not being a good basis for legislating against descrimination.   ???  So ... religion, race, creed, heritage shouldn't be protected against discrimination... I ... guess ... ?

Awwww gee MH, I hate the sound of his voice and I've already found it easy to come to the conclusion that he's phony, albeit an educated one. So please, please can you direct me to the times for the important parts that you feel we should all be aware of?

And also, there isn't anybody who is going to stand with Jordan anymore. You just strengthen the negative opinions against him.

The Peterson agenda is impossible in my opinion because intelligent people need to distance themselves from the god delusions, while still having to hold up the bible part of Christianity. If he was to take his beliess outside of mainstream Xtian bullshit, he would at least get himself on a few more debate stages.

Anyway, a bit of help with the important parts? I just cannot stomach a full hour plus of that miserable psychotic loser.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on November 05, 2020, 02:36:52 pm
I bailed out after the first four minutes...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on November 05, 2020, 10:10:00 pm
I bailed out after the first four minutes...

Soooooooo!
You tried to get me to watch it for you.

If you bailed in the first 4 minutes, I would bail even faster now that I know how big a dink that guy is.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on November 06, 2020, 06:18:26 am
Soooooooo!
You tried to get me to watch it for you.

If you bailed in the first 4 minutes, I would bail even faster now that I know how big a dink that guy is.

I put it out there for you, like a tray of crackers with bird **** on them.  Try or do not try... there is no dooo... Only creamy cracker curiosity, there is.

In other words, don't complain about the **** I offer you...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on November 06, 2020, 11:24:02 am
I put it out there for you, like a tray of crackers with bird **** on them.  Try or do not try... there is no dooo... Only creamy cracker curiosity, there is.

In other words, don't complain about the **** I offer you...

O.k. you win this time. I heard out Brown up to about 12 minutes.
People like Peterson are probably more interested in replaying videos like this one and jerking off over it for the vainglorious pleasure he gets from seeing and hearing his image. Not because he has any moral priorities he needs to uphold.

Him and his little men lined up behind him have gained courage from the Trump regime the other side of the border and are only intent in promoting the same extremist right agenda in Canada. Hopefully Jordan will soon go extinct.

On the brighter note, you may have stirred some Peterson supporter to feeling like he/she needs to support his views here.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 06, 2020, 11:36:47 am
On the brighter note, you may have stirred some Peterson supporter to feeling like he/she needs to support his views here.

Instead of trying to cajole “Petersen supporters” out of the woodwork, why don’t you take a topic you disagree with him about and make a post about it?

You seem to have a cult-of-personality obsession with the guy in the opposite way his followers do....   just because Petersen said something doesn’t make it wrong...   the ideas stand up, or not, on their own merit.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on November 06, 2020, 12:36:37 pm
Instead of trying to cajole “Petersen supporters” out of the woodwork, why don’t you take a topic you disagree with him about and make a post about it?

You seem to have a cult-of-personality obsession with the guy in the opposite way his followers do....   just because Petersen said something doesn’t make it wrong...   the ideas stand up, or not, on their own merit.

And so what do you think we should talk about here on this thread? Shirley we can agree on that at least! You could start by suggesting there's something good about Peterson!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 06, 2020, 12:38:27 pm
And so what do you think we should talk about here on this thread? Shirley we can agree on that at least! You could start by suggesting there's something good about Peterson!

It’s not my thread.  Why should I have to come up with a topic of discussion?  I made a suggestion that might get you some more responses.  Do it, or not.  I don’t really care. 

And don’t call me Shirley.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Montgomery on November 06, 2020, 12:45:11 pm
It’s not my thread.  Why should I have to come up with a topic of discussion?  I made a suggestion that might get you some more responses.  Do it, or not.  I don’t really care. 

And don’t call me Shirley.

I'm just going to have to ignore you completely if you have nothing to contribute. Actually I've already said too much that encourages your bad behaviour here on this thread.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 06, 2020, 12:55:37 pm
I'm just going to have to ignore you completely if you have nothing to contribute. Actually I've already said too much that encourages your bad behaviour here on this thread.

Sounds good to me.

I will continue to point out your issues with facts and logic in your posts.  Feel free to ignore my truth-bombs.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on February 21, 2021, 12:50:41 pm
Just found this.... 15 minutes in and Peterson is getting owned by the GQ person and not enjoying it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZYQpge1W5s
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on February 23, 2021, 11:09:56 am
i love how the "women are chaos" guy got absolutely scammed by his own daughter and almost died because she's an even bigger nutjob than he is.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 04, 2021, 11:10:53 pm
Jordan now has 2 books in the top 10 best sellers on Amazon.ca.

His books aren't political, they're essentially basic psychology self-help books about life.  I heard someone say that Jordan is like a father-figure for people who didn't have a strong father figure growing up, which I think is a big part of his appeal.  He says things people need to hear about psychology and life, things that a compassionate mother or female teacher sometimes may not say, and people need to hear these things, especially men.

His political opinions people can easily disagree on and I get people who don't like him for that.  But to see the millions he's helped as a popular psychologist and to deny that work and appeal I think is either inhuman or someone just doesn't understand it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 04:46:55 am
I'm all for self-help.

Stephen Covey changed my life, but his system was a little more strategic than Peterson's 12 rules.

And also, I don't agree that you have to be perfect before criticizing.  That rule, and the one about precise language are ones Peterson himself doesn't follow.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 06:40:40 am
Because that's what we need from academics, father figures who tell people what the need to hear.  ::)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 08:51:18 am
Because that's what we need from academics, father figures who tell people what the need to hear.  ::)

Richard Wolff not included in this exhortation.... check him out
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 10:35:28 am
Jordan now has 2 books in the top 10 best sellers on Amazon.ca.

His books aren't political, they're essentially basic psychology self-help books about life.  I heard someone say that Jordan is like a father-figure for people who didn't have a strong father figure growing up, which I think is a big part of his appeal.  He says things people need to hear about psychology and life, things that a compassionate mother or female teacher sometimes may not say, and people need to hear these things, especially men.

His political opinions people can easily disagree on and I get people who don't like him for that.  But to see the millions he's helped as a popular psychologist and to deny that work and appeal I think is either inhuman or someone just doesn't understand it.

If it wasn't for his political opinions, no one would know who this doofus is and his book would be just another self help tome in the bargain bin at Indigo.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 11:01:14 am
If it wasn't for his political opinions, no one would know who this doofus is and his book would be just another self help tome in the bargain bin at Indigo.
It's embarrassing **** coming from an academic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 11:23:49 am
It's embarrassing **** coming from an academic.

The best part of his whole schtick is how he rails against postmodernism without apparently having the slightest understanding of what it is.

Actually, scratch that: the best part is the time he claimed to have had a sip of apple juice and fallen into a month long depression as a result.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 11:45:15 am
No idea about postmodernism, no idea what Marxist theory is, no idea about a lot of things other than the perfume of his own farts.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 12:51:54 pm
1. The best part of his whole schtick is how he rails against postmodernism without apparently having the slightest understanding of what it is.

2. ... the best part is the time he claimed to have had a sip of apple juice and fallen into a month long depression as a result.

1. Zizek joshing with him, then putting him on the hook for this bit of imbicilitry during their debate, then letting him off the hook was perfect.  Like a Slovenian cat playing with a mouse

2.  ???
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:01:21 pm
Because that's what we need from academics, father figures who tell people what the need to hear.  ::)

He's a clinical psychologist with many decades of practice helping people in counseling sessions helping solve their real-world problems, this isn't just theory.  There's no reason he can't put some of that advice into book form instead of having to pay $200 a session for private counseling.

What kind of book targeted at a mass audience would you like a clinical psychologist to write?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:04:40 pm
I know very well who Jordan Peterson is and I also know that he's someone who steps far outside his area of expertise on a regular basis.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:06:42 pm
I'm all for self-help.

Stephen Covey changed my life, but his system was a little more strategic than Peterson's 12 rules.

And also, I don't agree that you have to be perfect before criticizing.  That rule, and the one about precise language are ones Peterson himself doesn't follow.

I agree with you.

But I think his point is also that it's hard to preach about how the world should be run when you're a 20 y/o student who still lives with your parents and haven't accomplished anything.  I mean when I was 20 I had all the answers but I really didn't know much about the world other than what I read in a book, so my grand ideas for saving the world at the time were pretty naive.

But as you say, people should still have a voice and be free to speak out.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:08:02 pm
If it wasn't for his political opinions, no one would know who this doofus is and his book would be just another self help tome in the bargain bin at Indigo.

Yes I agree, the political opinions made him famous.  But I think we can distinguish between his politics (nobody agrees on politics) vs his academic work and PhD practice.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:10:21 pm
Yes I agree, the political opinions made him famous.  But I think we can distinguish between his politics (nobody agrees on politics) vs his academic work and PhD practice.
His self-help book isn't academic work. That's been my point here.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:11:40 pm
The best part of his whole schtick is how he rails against postmodernism without apparently having the slightest understanding of what it is.

I disagree with that.  Postmodernism is the underpinning of modern critical theory (modern identity politics, intersectionalism) etc.

But I'm not trying to discuss his politics, which are obviously divisive.  My point is on his self-help and psychological work, which is what he's actually trained in as an academic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:13:47 pm
I know very well who Jordan Peterson is and I also know that he's someone who steps far outside his area of expertise on a regular basis.

In terms of his political opinions, many times yes, but that's fine everyone can have a political opinion and we're free to disagree with them.  As I said, I get why people don't like his politics, they're free to discredit those opinions.

I'm trying to discuss his psychology, which has been helpful to millions and has nothing to do with criticizing identity politics.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:17:54 pm
His self-help book isn't academic work. That's been my point here.

It's based on his practice as a PhD.  He's not trying to submit it to an academic journal where cites are needed after every sentence.  It's a book, not an academic article he's submitting to a journal and never claimed it as such.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 01:18:43 pm

But I think his point is also that it's hard to preach about how the world should be run when you're a 20 y/o student who still lives with your parents and haven't accomplished anything.  I mean when I was 20 I had all the answers but I really didn't know much about the world other than what I read in a book, so my grand ideas for saving the world at the time were pretty naive.

But as you say, people should still have a voice and be free to speak out.

People get self-help from all kinds of sources, even THE BIBLE FFS.  So unless the book is written to expressly do harm, or misrepresent I'm ok with people getting what they can from it.

That said, he's an example of why fame is a problem, he's a lousy academic, he's a hypocrite, and he talks like Kermit.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:20:16 pm
In terms of his political opinions, many times yes, but that's fine everyone can have a political opinion and we're free to disagree with them.  As I said, I get why people don't like his politics, they're free to discredit those opinions.

I'm trying to discuss his psychology, which has been helpful to millions and has nothing to do with criticizing identity politics.
Here's someone I greatly respect in the space of cognitive science and philosophy. Read his take on Peterson's bestseller:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hot-thought/201802/jordan-peterson-s-flimsy-philosophy-life

It articulates far better than I ever could why Peterson's book is ham-fisted and not at all academically rigorous.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:27:11 pm
People get self-help from all kinds of sources, even THE BIBLE FFS.  So unless the book is written to expressly do harm, or misrepresent I'm ok with people getting what they can from it.

Quote
That said, he's an example of why fame is a problem, he's a lousy academic, he's a hypocrite, and he talks like Kermit.

I think the problem is many times he's not speaking as an academic, so what are you judging him on?  He has no expertise in Marxism.  But it's possible to separate the academic from the political commentator, which is my whole point.  I mean he has tons of lectures on youtube in classes on his field of expertise, so you have issues with these, or just him mouthing off about identity politics in some interview?

I'm trying to separate the psychologist from the political pundit, which is hard because he's both.  Jonathan Haidt isn't as political, he speaks on the differences between because ie: conservatives and liberals psychologically, because that's literally an area he studies as an academic.  Jordan has no expertise on transgender human rights laws.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 01:32:44 pm
Here's someone I greatly respect in the space of cognitive science and philosophy. Read his take on Peterson's bestseller:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/hot-thought/201802/jordan-peterson-s-flimsy-philosophy-life

It articulates far better than I ever could why Peterson's book is ham-fisted and not at all academically rigorous.

You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff.  I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic.  Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:41:32 pm
You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff.  I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic.  Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.
That's what you got from that review?

You didn't even read it.

So really, don't come at me about not having an open mind.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:46:35 pm
Also, I think another thing to be aware of is the concerted effort by conservatives to artificially inflate their book sales through bulk buying schemes that push them up the NYT bestsellers list. More information on that here:

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/474662-the-myth-of-the-conservative-bestseller

"Bulk buys ensure success regardless of whether anyone is remotely interested in the book. They allow those with the necessary resources to conjure up an illusion of grassroots popularity."

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 01:47:38 pm
I disagree with that. Postmodernism is the underpinning of modern critical theory (modern identity politics, intersectionalism) etc.

But I'm not trying to discuss his politics, which are obviously divisive.  My point is on his self-help and psychological work, which is what he's actually trained in as an academic.

Yes and he doesn't understand any of it.

Quote
You just resent Peterson because his politics are antithesis to yours. There's nothing he could say in any book that wouldn't make you want to discredit him, because you vehemently dislike him.  Typical culture war stuff. I mean I get that, but to deny how helpful his book has been to people because well I dislike the man, is sociopathic. Hiding your agenda behind "well he's missing some footnotes here and there" is BS.

Has anyone denied that or is it simply a banal observation that doesn't need to be addressed? After all lots of people have found happiness and fulfillment in reading The Secret or joining cults, but that's not the only criteria we use for assessing something.

at the end of the day people hate Peterson because his "advice" is little more than platitudes and his public persona is that of a grifting weirdo who regularly steps out of his narrow field of expertise into places he has no business opining on. Oh and many of his fans are freaks too.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 05, 2021, 01:59:48 pm
i love how the "women are chaos" guy got absolutely scammed by his own daughter and almost died because she's an even bigger nutjob than he is.

Peterson has claimed you need a supernatural, mystical experiences to quit smoking!   His views on Christianity are simply bizarre...  From what I can tell, he doesn’t believe in actual god, but thinks people should live like they believe in a Christian god. 

The man is a crackpot.  I find his non-political ideas WAY worse than his political views on free speech. 

Based on interviews and debates I have heard him in, I wouldn’t believe a single word the man says about how one should live their life.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 02:21:57 pm
Yes and he doesn't understand any of it.

Really?  Which part?  Be specific.

Current critical theory and intersectional identity politics in the universities comes out the french postmodernism movement in the 1960's, which is all he really says.  Most people in university in the humanities will be introduced to postmodern theory (Foucault, Derrida etc).  That's really most of what he says about postmodernism.  I happen to like postmodernism and critical theory, it's pretty brilliant, but it's also been politicized, which causes social conflict.

As for "cultural Marxist", it's an odd term i don't use, but he means that Marxism is about using equality of outcome to destroy oppressive power structures in economics.  Culturally, this is being done by postmodernists (today's "woke") who are in favour of equality of outcome instead of merit with race/gender quotas etc so that everyone needs to be the same regardless of merit, and any discrepancies in a the workplace or student admissions etc in group identity numbers is seen as being due to oppression.  I mean that's 2021 to a tee.

Some may agree (include many posters on this forum) with that critical theory/postmodern approach, and it does have some merit because racism/sexism oppression clearly occurs.  You guys just don't agree with politics, because he's anti-postmodernism and you guys are clearly postmodernists so you seek to discredit him.  Yay culture war.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 02:27:42 pm
I can tell you right now that most of the rightwing folks on MLW are anti-postmodernists.  Resisting the reform of oppressive power structures is in the interests of old white men like those guys.  Consequently, folks on the left, which are a bunch of the people on this forum like black dog and cyberc, are postmodernists, and fight for more equal outcomes among identity groups through whichever means.  And there's nothing wrong with that in general.  But this is what the culture war is all about.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 02:40:10 pm
I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm looking to eliminate barriers altogether, which isn't immediately possible in most cases. That means I'm looking for equitability not equality in the interim. In any case, I think this completely misses the point that post-modernism isn't something that you create or happens. It's something that exists or has always existed. It's a theory that describes how things are. A massive oversimplification of post-modernism is that there are multiple perspectives on things and how those things appear depends on where you're coming from. Think of the young lady-old hag picture or the duck and bunny picture. That's not something that's created. It's just a way of conceptualizing how things are.

Edit to add: Taking what I said above, that makes the whole "anti-postmodernist" thing a bit bizarre. As bizarre as say being "anti-gravity." That's great that you don't believe in gravity but do you have a better explanation that's testable and observable in a scientifically rigorous way? But then again, what more can you expect from a crowd who "doesn't believe" in "evolution" because it's "just a theory."
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 03:02:26 pm
   Consequently, folks on the left, which are a bunch of the people on this forum like black dog and cyberc, are postmodernists, and fight for more equal outcomes among identity groups through whichever means.   

A fallacy.  There is a strong left anti-woke... the idea of painting ALL left as "Work" is a FOX & Friends programming directive.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 03:35:45 pm
A fallacy.  There is a strong left anti-woke... the idea of painting ALL left as "Work" is a FOX & Friends programming directive.

Not all left are woke i agree.  Sguiggy isn't woke.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 03:39:30 pm
Not all left are woke i agree.  Sguiggy isn't woke.

From Laverne & Shirley ?  I always took him to be an Eisenhauer guy.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 04:01:19 pm
I'm not looking for equal outcomes. I'm looking to eliminate barriers altogether, which isn't immediately possible in most cases. That means I'm looking for equitability not equality in the interim. In any case, I think this completely misses the point that post-modernism isn't something that you create or happens. It's something that exists or has always existed. It's a theory that describes how things are. A massive oversimplification of post-modernism is that there are multiple perspectives on things and how those things appear depends on where you're coming from. Think of the young lady-old hag picture or the duck and bunny picture. That's not something that's created. It's just a way of conceptualizing how things are.

Edit to add: Taking what I said above, that makes the whole "anti-postmodernist" thing a bit bizarre. As bizarre as say being "anti-gravity." That's great that you don't believe in gravity but do you have a better explanation that's testable and observable in a scientifically rigorous way? But then again, what more can you expect from a crowd who "doesn't believe" in "evolution" because it's "just a theory."

What I mean by a "postmodernist" is someone who believes the theory and uses those concepts in how they frame the world in their own minds, and then uses these concepts to form policy and hiring practices etc.  ie: By breaking people down into different groups, who all have different levels of power and influence and perspectives, and applying different values to different groups based on perceived current or historical oppressed status, and treating people differently based on their perceived level of power based on their group status.

An anti-post-modernist is somebody who doesn't believe in the validity of this theoretical framework, and/or doesn't believe in its use for policy, at least not consciously, preferring the status quo, which naturally benefits groups who have more power, like men or white people or straight or rich people.  Peterson doesn't seem to have a very good view of postmodernism, which I disagree with him on since I find the theory brilliant (yes, we're simplifying the theory, it can be broad and vague), for me it's all about how far you take it.

Postmodernism isn't quite the same as gravity.  Gravity is a scientific phenomenon you can prove in a lab with specific physical laws.  Postmodernism is a theoretical framework created by the human mind as a lens to view and explain the social world, no different than any other philosophical theory, which is not hard science, but social science and not proven by hard maths and physics.

I think most people's problem on the left with Peterson's take on postmodernism is that he doesn't like how much it has dominated thought in the humanities in academics and by extension greater society, while many on the progressive left disagree with him.  Cyber you're an academic university type and seem to agree with much of the recent postmodern critical theory coming out of the universities, things like microaggressions and whatnot.  So I understand why you don't agree with Peterson.  You guys are on 2 opposing sides of the culture war, and it's become a very bitter war.  I find myself kind of in the middle, I can empathize with both sides, and don't want to be too extreme either way.  I style myself a 90's or 2000's leftist on a lot of things, which is more a Bill Maher liberal type thinking and not so much 2021 woke.  Trouble is if you're me or Bill Maher you seemed pretty progressive left-wing in 2002, but now those same thoughts seem conservative in comparison to 2021 progressiveness.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 04:52:05 pm
Really?  Which part?  Be specific.

Well for starters, he frequently ties postmodernism together with Marxism. The notion that a school of thought that rejects grand narratives and one that is centred around a single grand narrative are compatible and complementary is hilarious.

here's (https://viewpointmag.com/2018/01/23/postmodernism-not-take-place-jordan-petersons-12-rules-life/) a good breakdown of his failures to understand PoMo thought. Here's (https://notesonliberty.com/2018/05/27/jordan-petersons-ignorance-of-postmodern-philosophy/) another.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 05:29:12 pm
What I mean by a "postmodernist" is ...

It already means something !  Pick a new word.  Peterson picked "Postmodern Marxist"... which is a silly oxymoron but HE'S an academic so it looks worse on him than you.

Just say "woke" - we all know what it means. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 05, 2021, 07:11:16 pm
Well for starters, he frequently ties postmodernism together with Marxism. The notion that a school of thought that rejects grand narratives and one that is centred around a single grand narrative are compatible and complementary is hilarious.

There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 07:23:23 pm
He already conceded that he was winging it, in his discussion with Zizek
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 05, 2021, 08:52:09 pm
There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.

What are the links between French Marxist philosophers and current university academia, other than Peterson’s crackpot assertions?  I’m dying to know.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 10:20:35 pm
There's a strong history of Marxist thought in universities in France.  Pol Pot was educated in a French university and was turned onto Marxism there.  You're telling me Derrida wasn't a Marxist at some point?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.

They're completely antithetical philosophies dude.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 06, 2021, 01:57:48 am
He already conceded that he was winging it, in his discussion with Zizek

Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 06, 2021, 02:07:17 am
They're completely antithetical philosophies dude.

In what way?  Be specific.

How is breaking down power structures by race, gender etc. using critical social theory any different than breaking down power structures by economic class?  Marxism is postmodernism in the sphere of economics.  Both theories break down an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.  Critical race theorists and Marxist are both fighting for the oppressed classes over the powerful and destroying power hierarchies.  How are they ANY different besides the oppressed groups they local on?

Find me a critical postmodern theorist and how many of them are also anti-capitalists and/or Marxist sympathizers?  Darn well all of them.  Not saying there's anything wrong with that,  but
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 06, 2021, 02:15:06 am
What are the links between French Marxist philosophers and current university academia, other than Peterson’s crackpot assertions?  I’m dying to know.

They literally conceptualized postmodernism and critical theory.  Scholars like Foucault and Derrida.  Critical race and gender theory is kind of a big deal in today's universities.  In the humanities fields it is an obsession, for better or worse.  There's academics that criticize Classics like Homer and Plato because some claim they are sexist racist white supremacist works.  There's high school teachers literally removing these ancient works from class curriculum for these reasons:  https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/12/31/teacher-proud-removing-homer/

The roots of intersectionalism comes from critical theory and postmodern philosophy.  Microaggressions don't just come from thin air, they have intellectual underpinnings.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 06, 2021, 05:41:37 am
Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.

https://youtu.be/Wsz6ijXWS3A

When Zizek brings up Foucault at the end, Peterson's word game is up... but then our slobbering, charming, kind-of Marxist uncle moves on rather than going for the kill.

The strategy for him, I was convinced, was to win over the audience and not the so-called debate.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 06, 2021, 05:43:41 am
And because we all seem to be following intellectual honesty here, Peterson was clear that he was playing with language. He conceives that there are no postmodern Neo marxists but that he "associates them".

Maybe it's honest, maybe he got caught.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 06, 2021, 01:19:48 pm
In what way?  Be specific.

How is breaking down power structures by race, gender etc. using critical social theory any different than breaking down power structures by economic class?  Marxism is postmodernism in the sphere of economics.  Both theories break down an oppressor/oppressed dynamic.  Critical race theorists and Marxist are both fighting for the oppressed classes over the powerful and destroying power hierarchies.  How are they ANY different besides the oppressed groups they local on?

Find me a critical postmodern theorist and how many of them are also anti-capitalists and/or Marxist sympathizers?  Darn well all of them.  Not saying there's anything wrong with that,  but

Postmodernism and critical theory aren't the same thing even if the latter does borrow from the former. You're moving the goalposts.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 06, 2021, 01:21:40 pm
Where?  Show us the specific link.

I just watched this debate of them.  Zizek concedes the point that Marxists turned to postmodernism when it was becoming clear in the 1960's that Marxism in practice (Stalin, Mao) had been disasterous.

So they abandoned Marxism for a different ideology and you think that makes Petersons's point that postmodernism and marxism are the same thing? Come on.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 06, 2021, 03:25:24 pm
Postmodernism and critical theory aren't the same thing even if the latter does borrow from the former. You're moving the goalposts.

I can't tell if he's saying they're the same thing, or - as Zizek asks - if he is saying there are people who are calling themselves that.  The 2nd option would be more tenable... if he had any examples.  He doesn't, though.  He goes with something weak like "the reason *I* associate them... ".  And Zizek lets him off the hook by saying he knows what he means, and agreeing with him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 06, 2021, 03:57:51 pm
So they abandoned Marxism for a different ideology and you think that makes Petersons's point that postmodernism and marxism are the same thing? Come on.

He never said they're the same thing, that's a strawman.

Zizek, a Marxist, even tells Peterson in the video MH posted that he agrees with the main point he's trying to say.  He just asks "where are all these Marxist postmodernists"?  Uhmm has he been inside a university classroom in the last 10 years?

Critical social theory, postmodernism, and intersectionality have all built on each other over the last 100 years.  I would say postmodernism is the least political of the three theories.  As you say, postmodernism would actually reject Marxism as a meta-narrative.  It's really more accurate to call progressives today intersectionalists or critical social theorists, or people using postmoderism in a political way (which is a bastardization of postmodernism).  Even intersectionality isn't inherently political.  Breaking down some social phenomena by race, gender etc is simply a way of seeing things through different lenses and breaking down humans into different variables.  But people inevitably put a value judgement on variables they see as oppressed categories (racial minorities, women etc) vs the privileged (male, white).  Intersectionality is a popular theory increasingly seen in university classrooms over the last 10 years, and IMO has been politicized, with oppression and privilege being added to its definition and co-opted by feminists and other groups for political agendas, for better or worse.  I think it describes today's "woke" ideology very well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

"Intersectionality is an analytical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities combine to create different modes of discrimination and privilege. Examples of these aspects include gender, caste, sex, race, class, sexuality, religion, disability, physical appearance,[1][2] and height.[3] Intersectionality identifies multiple factors of advantage and disadvantage."

So anyways, we can argue about definitions and terms, and we can argue that Peterson should use term X over term Y, but as Zizek says he knows the point that Peterson is trying to make.  I'm not arguing he can't make his point better.  He could maybe use a better word than "cultural Marxists", but most will know what he means when using the term.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 06, 2021, 04:51:28 pm
Zizek is a bloody clown too.  He has 2 PhD’s in philosophy but still comes up with something monumentally stupid like supporting Trump over Clinton because the Dems aren’t running a candidate who is leftist enough for him.

Yeah, ok...  that’s a winning strategy right there. 

Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 06, 2021, 08:28:25 pm
Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society.

I think anyone who goes against the zeitgeist of society will be bombarded by people who are going to try to nail them to a cross.

There's no perfect academic, they're only as good as each of their arguments.  All ideas in our society need to be questioned, but some people are determined to destroy anyone who dares, which I suppose is natural.  Again, it's a culture war to control the zeitgeist.  Cultural hegemony.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 06, 2021, 08:33:29 pm
1) supporting Trump over Clinton because the Dems aren’t running a candidate who is leftist enough for him.

2) Both of these idiots are evidence that getting a PhD in social sciences is essentially a meaningless determiner as to your actual ability to be a rational thinker. 

3)Neither has anything got add to the grand conversations about society.
1) Well... how much he "supported" is a question.  He sort of backtracked and just said he hoped Trump would win as it would hasten a leftist resurgence.  How did that go now ?  :D

2) You really think a lot of yourself, I am starting to figure out.

3) Of course not, because YOU haven't ascended yet.  Let's go Squid - get on the podium !
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 07, 2021, 01:17:48 pm
So anyways, we can argue about definitions and terms, and we can argue that Peterson should use term X over term Y, but as Zizek says he knows the point that Peterson is trying to make.  I'm not arguing he can't make his point better.  He could maybe use a better word than "cultural Marxists", but most will know what he means when using the term.

Jews?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 07, 2021, 04:33:28 pm

2) You really think a lot of yourself, I am starting to figure out.

True, I do not have self esteem issues, and I try and be a sceptic and a rational thinker.


Quote
3) Of course not, because YOU haven't ascended yet.  Let's go Squid - get on the podium !

I never inferred that anyone should listen to my advice on a given topic, nor do I hold myself up as an expert.   

These guys do, and yet if you look at their own actions with a critical eye, they clearly are a couple of idiots. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 08, 2021, 06:49:40 pm

The links between Marxism, postmodernism, and university academia are pretty clear.
only to those who have no idea what Marxism and postmodernism are. They’re mutually exclusive. You can’t be a Marxist, who believes in a grand narrative, and a postmodernist, which REJECTS grand narratives.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 08, 2021, 06:51:26 pm
Jews?
Frankfurt School! They’re controlling everything!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 08, 2021, 09:23:54 pm
only to those who have no idea what Marxism and postmodernism are. They’re mutually exclusive. You can’t be a Marxist, who believes in a grand narrative, and a postmodernist, which REJECTS grand narratives.

Not sure I agree with all he's saying here, but from the horses mouth:

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/postmodernism-definition-and-critique-with-a-few-comments-on-its-relationship-with-marxism/

Quote
It’s not as if I personally think that postmodernism and Marxism are commensurate. It’s obvious to me that the much-vaunted “skepticism toward grand narratives” that is part and parcel of the postmodern viewpoint makes any such alliance logically impossible. Postmodernists should be as skeptical toward Marxism as toward any other canonical belief system.

So the formal postmodern claim, such as it is, is radical skepticism. But that’s not at all how it has played out in theory or in practice. Derrida and Foucault were, for example, barely repentant Marxists, if repentant at all. They parleyed their 1960’s bourgeoisie vs proletariat rhetoric into the identity politics that has plagued us since the 1970’s. Foucault’s fundamental implicit (and often explicit) claim is that power relations govern society. That’s a rehashing of the Marxist claim of eternal and primary class warfare. Derrida’s hypothetical concern for the marginalized is a version of the same thing. I don’t really care if either of them made the odd statement about disagreeing with the Marxist doctrines: their fundamental claims are still soaked in those patterns of thought.
...
So: postmodernism, by its nature (at least with regard to skepticism) cannot ally itself with Marxism. But it does, practically. The dominance of postmodern Marxist rhetoric in the academy (which is a matter of fact, as laid out by the Heterodox Academy, among other sources) attests to that. The fact that such an alliance is illogical cannot be laid at my feet, just because I point out that the alliance exists. I agree that it’s illogical. That doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 09:47:11 pm
Not sure I agree with all he's saying here, but from the horses mouth:

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/philosophy/postmodernism-definition-and-critique-with-a-few-comments-on-its-relationship-with-marxism/

Jordan Peterson: "Then again, coherence isn’t one of (postmodernists) strong points."

Also Jordan Peterson:

 (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/73/9b/d1/739bd16f897ac350af2bbf45f633e233.png)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 08, 2021, 09:52:10 pm
Frankfurt School! They’re controlling everything!

Marx and many critical theorists from the Frankfurt School were Jewish, but I don't think there was a "Jewish conspiracy", I think it's simply that there were lots of Jews in Germany pre-WWII and many of them were well-educated.

Critical theory from the Frankfurt School is pretty much mainstream leftist thought.  Add intersectionalism and you have 2021 in a nutshell.  Critical theory is Marxism expanded to all social spheres beyond economics:

"Critical theory: Marxist-inspired movement in social and political philosophy originally associated with the work of the Frankfurt School. Drawing particularly on the thought of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, critical theorists maintain that a primary goal of philosophy is to understand and to help overcome the social structures through which people are dominated and oppressed.".

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-theory

Not sure I agree with Peterson's focus on postmodernism over critical theory and intersectionality.  But there would be no postmodernism without critical theory, and there would be no intersectionalism without those 2 prior philosophies.  And a lot of these 3 theories have links with Marxism, in the case of postmodernism in its philosophical roots and some of its theorists maybe rather than the theory itself.  Most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers.  Many are socialists, feminists, critical race theorists etc.  I graduated uni with this thinking too.  It's very clear that these philosophies absolutely dominate universities in recent years, and have spread into wider society.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 08, 2021, 09:54:24 pm
Marx and many critical theorists from the Frankfurt School were Jewish, but I don't think there was a "Jewish conspiracy", I think it's simply that there were lots of Jews in Germany pre-WWII and many of them were well-educated.

Critical theory from the Frankfurt School is pretty much mainstream leftist thought.  Add intersectionalism and you have 2021 in a nutshell.  Critical theory is Marxism expanded to all social spheres beyond economics:

"Critical theory: Marxist-inspired movement in social and political philosophy originally associated with the work of the Frankfurt School. Drawing particularly on the thought of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud, critical theorists maintain that a primary goal of philosophy is to understand and to help overcome the social structures through which people are dominated and oppressed.".

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-theory

Not sure I agree with Peterson's focus on postmodernism over critical theory and intersectionality.  But there would be no postmodernism without critical theory, and there would be no intersectionalism without those 2 prior philosophies.  And a lot of these 3 theories have links with Marxism, in the case of postmodernism in its philosophical roots and some of its theorists maybe rather than the theory itself.  Most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers.  Many are socialists, feminists, critical race theorists etc.  I graduated uni with this thinking too.  It's very clear that these philosophies absolutely dominate universities in recent years, and have spread into wider society.

lmao the absolute state of this.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 08, 2021, 10:07:44 pm
If you go to university in recent years and you're an sympathetic person (aka decent human being) it's very hard not to graduate as an intersectional Marxist sympathizer given that most every course in the social sciences and other fields are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.  The actual validity of those philosophies is a discussion for another day.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 09, 2021, 06:25:31 am
... are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.   

You are falling into the Peterson trap by putting these two together.  Remember above ?  Where I showed you when we dismantled the term "post modern Marxism" ?

Really it's "woke" people, and "woke" is a question of degrees of wokeness... you can't stop it, since you are more "woke" than your grandparents were
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2021, 10:00:38 am
lmao the absolute state of this.
Intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers lmao

No thanks, I’m full. I’ll pass on the word salad and stick to the realm of meaning.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 10:06:26 am
If you go to university in recent years and you're an sympathetic person (aka decent human being) it's very hard not to graduate as an intersectional Marxist sympathizer given that most every course in the social sciences and other fields are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.  The actual validity of those philosophies is a discussion for another day.

Gonna need some kinda citation for that one!

The largest field of study at postsecondary institutions in Canada is "business, management and public administration" followed by "architecture, engineering and related technologies." The humanities is a distant fifth with about 45,000 grads a year. You might get a taste of what you're talking about in sociology, you're certainly not getting a intersectional Marxist whatever indoctrination in fields like law or economics or (lol) engineering.

So: let's see some proof.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 10:07:25 am
Intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers lmao

No thanks, I’m full. I’ll pass on the word salad and stick to the realm of meaning.

Don't venture out there without a map, there are Chaos Dragons everywhere!

GG is doing peterson's thing of throwing enough gobbeldydgook to make it look like the fundamental argument ("woke bad!") has some actual intellectual credibility.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 02:42:56 pm
Intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers lmao

No thanks, I’m full. I’ll pass on the word salad and stick to the realm of meaning.

Don't shoot the messenger.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 02:46:58 pm
Gonna need some kinda citation for that one!

The largest field of study at postsecondary institutions in Canada is "business, management and public administration" followed by "architecture, engineering and related technologies." The humanities is a distant fifth with about 45,000 grads a year. You might get a taste of what you're talking about in sociology, you're certainly not getting a intersectional Marxist whatever indoctrination in fields like law or economics or (lol) engineering.

So: let's see some proof.

That's why I said the social sciences, nothing you said is relevant to what I said.  Re-read what I wrote.  No sh!t they don't learn about Marxism in engineering lol.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 02:49:17 pm
Don't venture out there without a map, there are Chaos Dragons everywhere!

GG is doing peterson's thing of throwing enough gobbeldydgook to make it look like the fundamental argument ("woke bad!") has some actual intellectual credibility.

I never even said woke bad.  I said woke popular.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 02:51:39 pm
That's why I said the social sciences, nothing you said is relevant to what I said.  Re-read what I wrote.  No sh!t they don't learn about Marxism in engineering lol.

You literally said "most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers."

Derp.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 02:52:26 pm
I never even said woke bad.  I said woke popular.

You don't need to say it when it comes through loud and clear in your posts. Also, "woke bad" is pretty much Lobsterboys' whole stance.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 02:59:26 pm
Intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers lmao

No thanks, I’m full. I’ll pass on the word salad and stick to the realm of meaning.

Are you saying the majority of university students in the social sciences don't graduate as ardent intersectionalists or Marxist sympathizers/socialists?  Did you?  Do you believe in and support intersectionalism, critical theory through lenses like feminism and critical race theory?  Do you sympathize with Marxism or socialism?  You are an NDP national pharmacare supporter are you not?

Did they teach you more about classic liberalism in university, or more about anti-neoliberalism and intersectionalism, critical theory, Marxist lenses etc?  I know the answer because I went to university.

Just own your sh!t.  As I said, don't shoot the messenger.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 03:00:43 pm
You literally said "most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers."

Derp.


If you go to university in recent years and you're an sympathetic person (aka decent human being) it's very hard not to graduate as an intersectional Marxist sympathizer given that most every course in the social sciences and other fields are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.  The actual validity of those philosophies is a discussion for another day.

Derp
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 03:01:57 pm

If you go to university in recent years and you're an sympathetic person (aka decent human being) it's very hard not to graduate as an intersectional Marxist sympathizer given that most every course in the social sciences and other fields are going to teach about intersectionalism and Marxist lenses.  The actual validity of those philosophies is a discussion for another day.

Derp

Did you or did you not say "most university students graduate as intersectionalist Marxist sympathizers?"

Do you think "most" university students are in the social sciences and humanities or do you just like being wrong?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 03:05:12 pm
You don't need to say it when it comes through loud and clear in your posts. Also, "woke bad" is pretty much Lobsterboys' whole stance.

Then own your sh!t.  You think woke good.  That's why you don't like Peterson.  You can make up all the reasons you want, but you'll never like him no matter what he says because you and him are opponents in the cultural war.  No different than cyberc.

Peterson says woke bad, which is obviously debatable, but he also says universities are woke mills.  He's not wrong.  If you think woke good, then you should embrace it.  Who cares if the label for woke is "postmodern cultural marxism" or something else, woke is woke.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 03:13:12 pm
Then own your sh!t.  You think woke good.  That's why you don't like Peterson.  You can make up all the reasons you want, but you'll never like him no matter what he says because you and him are opponents in the cultural war.  No different than cyberc.

You've got it exactly backwards. I don't think Peterson is wrong because he's anti-woke, I think he's anti-woke because he's wrong and very, very stupid, which leads him to make fantastical claims.

Quote
Peterson says woke bad, which is obviously debatable, but he also says universities are woke mills.  He's not wrong.  If you think woke good, then you should embrace it.  Who cares if the label for woke is "postmodern cultural marxism" or something else, woke is woke.

You're begging the question. If he's right, you certainly haven't shown it here.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 03:28:14 pm
Well can we all agree that "cultural Marxism" is a stupid term at least?  Like Zizek I get what Peterson and others mean by the term, but it just isn't a good term.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 09, 2021, 03:41:12 pm
Well can we all agree that "cultural Marxism" is a stupid term at least?  Like Zizek I get what Peterson and others mean by the term, but it just isn't a good term.

Isn't the fact that Peterson loves the term an indication that he might not be the brain genius he's advertised as?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 09, 2021, 06:31:20 pm
Isn't the fact that Peterson loves the term an indication that he might not be the brain genius he's advertised as?

He's a good psychologist but in his political commentary he has no expertise so he's just a guy with opinions.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 09, 2021, 08:22:01 pm
He's a good psychologist but in his political commentary he has no expertise so he's just a guy with opinions.
opinions that he tries to peddle as expertise.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 10:11:46 am
He's a good psychologist but in his political commentary he has no expertise so he's just a guy with opinions.

Again, he's not famous for his clinical practice.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 10, 2021, 01:48:28 pm
opinions that he tries to peddle as expertise.

In what way?  By going on tv shows and giving his opinion?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 02:17:13 pm
In what way?  By going on tv shows and giving his opinion?

While claiming expertise he doesn't have (like in that BBC interview when he claimed to be an evolutionary biologist).

****, even his cultural Marxism rigamarole is outside of his wheelhouse as a clinical psychologist.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 10, 2021, 02:20:39 pm
While claiming expertise he doesn't have (like in that BBC interview when he claimed to be an evolutionary biologist).

****, even his cultural Marxism rigamarole is outside of his wheelhouse as a clinical psychologist.

What about Philosophy ?  He comments on Nietzsche and at least once I recall him adding "and that's good" after Peterson blessed Nietzsche with his approval of a piece.... JFC
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 10, 2021, 02:29:19 pm
You actually don’t need letters behind your name to give an opinion on something.   The opinion will rise or fall on its own merits. 

However, Petersen’s arguments often fail (the whole cultural Marxism mislabeling), are often word salad nonsense (his views on religion) and he demonstrates a severe lack of critical thinking (the all-meat diet fiasco).
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 10, 2021, 02:32:37 pm
However, Petersen’s arguments often fail (the whole cultural Marxism mislabeling), are often word salad nonsense (his views on religion) and he demonstrates a severe lack of critical thinking (the all-meat diet fiasco).

I agree and I find it shocking.  When you pair it with the uncritical support of people who don't know the conventions of academic rigour it becomes annoying. 

It's all annoying, because there are plenty of smart people who like him because he offers self-help to the lost, too.  So his flock, and his body of work, and people who tolerate him and who think he's ok is a mish-mash... he's .... nothing.  Just the outline of what a public intellectual could be if he had broad appeal, and was careful with his words and thinking.

Just a shame. 

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 10, 2021, 02:41:23 pm
You actually don’t need letters behind your name to give an opinion on something.   The opinion will rise or fall on its own merits. 

However, Petersen’s arguments often fail (the whole cultural Marxism mislabeling), are often word salad nonsense (his views on religion) and he demonstrates a severe lack of critical thinking (the all-meat diet fiasco).

You do, however, need to be an evolutionary biologist if you claim to be evolutionary biologist.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 10, 2021, 02:45:51 pm
You do, however, need to be an evolutionary biologist if you claim to be evolutionary biologist.

I think so too....   but I don’t tend to hold it against someone when they mis-speak, which is likely what happened. 

Especially if one is on the pills and eating an all meat diet. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 10, 2021, 02:54:00 pm
I agree and I find it shocking.  When you pair it with the uncritical support of people who don't know the conventions of academic rigour it becomes annoying. 

It's all annoying, because there are plenty of smart people who like him because he offers self-help to the lost, too.  So his flock, and his body of work, and people who tolerate him and who think he's ok is a mish-mash... he's .... nothing.  Just the outline of what a public intellectual could be if he had broad appeal, and was careful with his words and thinking.

Just a shame.

He should be more careful with his words, I agree.  I don't understand the meat diet bashing, his health problems were due to prescription benzo withdrawal reaction.  This is another case of those who don't like him seeking to discredit him by any means they can, even if spreading lies.

It's also interesting to compare him to another public intellectual like Noam Chomsky.  Chomsky's academic expertise is linguistics, yet he's more known for his political commentary.  I think Chomsky is just a guy who is very well read and keeps informed on the news.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 10, 2021, 02:57:29 pm
1. I don't understand the meat diet bashing, his health problems were due to prescription benzo withdrawal reaction.

2. It's also interesting to compare him to another public intellectual like Noam Chomsky.  Chomsky's academic expertise is linguistics, yet he's more known for his political commentary.  I think Chomsky is just a guy who is very well read and keeps informed on the news.
1. He's kind of a ridiculous figure, and unfortunately people are bashing him when he is down in every way.  I will admit to ridiculing his voice.
2. Chomsky would never have been a shadow of what Peterson's potential is.  He could have been a cross between Dr. Phil and a public intellectual... if he were smarter, more empathetic, more careful with words etc.

They would love to have somebody like that to put on TV.  Chomsky can't get arrested.  Another one I really like is Dr. Richard Wolff... a friendly, avuncular Marxist...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 10, 2021, 03:01:41 pm
Hey i just learned Peterson has a BA in political science LOL.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 10, 2021, 03:12:03 pm
Hey i just learned Peterson has a BA in political science LOL.

Nothing for therapy ?  I think you used to be able to call yourself a therapist without credentials.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on March 12, 2021, 09:59:15 am
You actually don’t need letters behind your name to give an opinion on something.
I agree with you but come on, man. Clearly he's using his role as an academic to promote himself and try to give his opinions more weight. If he was just giving personal opinions and not throwing his profession around, we wouldn't even know him as a university professor or clinical psychologist. How many times have you heard his profession mentioned, yet we never see any of his peer-reviewed academic work referenced. It's asinine, honestly.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 18, 2021, 10:32:00 pm
"Information is the continuity of the doorway to truth”

"Death exists as unique bliss, I just can't understand"

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisdomofpeterson.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F03%2FJP_anim11_calc.gif&hash=1b8c5e210268dc9f33bd0d4695a8d23267874755)

http://www.wisdomofpeterson.com/
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 19, 2021, 03:09:12 pm
H8ters gonna h8.  Maybe you should attend one of his lectures and learn how to be a man instead of a bitter old snarky internet troll.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 19, 2021, 03:54:40 pm
H8ters gonna h8.  Maybe you should attend one of his lectures and learn how to be a man instead of a bitter old snarky internet troll.

The best description I've ever heard of JP is that he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. But hey as the Simpsons said:

(https://frinkiac.com/meme/S07E03/338887.jpg?b64lines=U3R1cGlkIGJhYmllcyBuZWVkIAp0aGUgbW9zdCBhdHRlbnRpb24uIA==)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 19, 2021, 04:37:00 pm
The best description I've ever heard of JP is that he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. But hey as the Simpsons said:

It’s shocking how many white guys find his word salad nonsense to be somehow intelligible. He’s the patriarch of the intel movement.  If anyone learns “how to be a man” from this crackpot, they’re doing it wrong.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 19, 2021, 10:21:54 pm
The best description I've ever heard of JP is that he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. But hey as the Simpsons said:

H8ers gonna h8.

Peterson Rule for Life #2784:  Being bitter and resentful is a winning strategy for life, and this forum is filled with winners.

I really don't understand why some of you guys are so angry.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 19, 2021, 10:23:44 pm
Wait I figured it out:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ressentiment
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 20, 2021, 05:24:45 am
I really don't understand why some of you guys are so angry.

I get why people get angry over JP.  We NEED a voice of this tone, but to unify us and bring everyone together.  Instead, we get another toxic disappointment, a faux intellectual who charms the ignorant and - rather than unify - reinforces their chauvinism.

the so-called postmodern neo Marxists are on a war footing because they have seen the entire structure of western publics works to marginalize those outside the center.  They are angry but they don't aspire to be what Peterson is doing, ie. a voice that is broadly influential.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: eyeball on March 20, 2021, 11:29:33 am
the so-called postmodern neo Marxists are on a war footing because they have seen the entire structure of western publics works to marginalize those outside the center.
Hmm...they've seen its still the innies vs the outies? How pedestrian.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 20, 2021, 12:12:32 pm
H8ers gonna h8.

Peterson Rule for Life #2784:  Being bitter and resentful is a winning strategy for life, and this forum is filled with winners.

I really don't understand why some of you guys are so angry.

That you think this muppet voiced pillhead grifter is a genius says a lot more about you than us TBH.

Once again, it's obvious you're not interested in actually understanding why people have beef with this knucklehead.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 20, 2021, 01:21:21 pm
H8ers gonna h8.

Peterson Rule for Life #2784:  Being bitter and resentful is a winning strategy for life, and this forum is filled with winners.

I really don't understand why some of you guys are so angry.

You’re taking disagreeing vehemently on an Internet forum made for debating these things with a person being angry.   
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 20, 2021, 05:24:05 pm
That you think this muppet voiced pillhead grifter is a genius says a lot more about you than us TBH.

Once again, it's obvious you're not interested in actually understanding why people have beef with this knucklehead.

Did I say he's a genius?  I know full well why people don't like his political opinions, and that's fine, I don't agree with all of them either, people will never agree on anyone's political opinions.  Here's how I started this convo, and of course the h8ers went right away to trying to discredit his psychology self-help by railing at his political opinions.  I wanted to talk about his self-help and all i get is FAKE ACADEMIC KERMIT GRIFTER cuz h8ters gonna h8.

Jordan now has 2 books in the top 10 best sellers on Amazon.ca.

His books aren't political, they're essentially basic psychology self-help books about life.  I heard someone say that Jordan is like a father-figure for people who didn't have a strong father figure growing up, which I think is a big part of his appeal.  He says things people need to hear about psychology and life, things that a compassionate mother or female teacher sometimes may not say, and people need to hear these things, especially men.

His political opinions people can easily disagree on and I get people who don't like him for that.  But to see the millions he's helped as a popular psychologist and to deny that work and appeal I think is either inhuman or someone just doesn't understand it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 20, 2021, 05:25:22 pm
You’re taking disagreeing vehemently on an Internet forum made for debating these things with a person being angry.

No I'm taking consistently poisonous bitter replies as coming from poisonous bitter people.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 21, 2021, 12:01:40 pm
Did I say he's a genius?  I know full well why people don't like his political opinions, and that's fine, I don't agree with all of them either, people will never agree on anyone's political opinions.  Here's how I started this convo, and of course the h8ers went right away to trying to discredit his psychology self-help by railing at his political opinions.  I wanted to talk about his self-help and all i get is FAKE ACADEMIC KERMIT GRIFTER cuz h8ters gonna h8.

ah bloo bloo bloo ****.

Want to talk about his self-help books? They suck. You'd be better off reading Marie Kondo instead, at least she has practical advice without the faux intellectual hard on for hierarchies.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 21, 2021, 12:47:19 pm
@graham

I will repeat:


I get why people get angry over JP.  We NEED a voice of this tone, but to unify us and bring everyone together.  Instead, we get another toxic disappointment, a faux intellectual who charms the ignorant and - rather than unify - reinforces their chauvinism.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 21, 2021, 04:30:07 pm
ah bloo bloo bloo ****.

Want to talk about his self-help books? They suck. You'd be better off reading Marie Kondo instead, at least she has practical advice without the faux intellectual hard on for hierarchies.

That's weird that you read a book by someone you despise.  We all know you didn't read it and have no idea what you're talking about.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 21, 2021, 04:56:39 pm
@graham

I will repeat:


I get why people get angry over JP.  We NEED a voice of this tone, but to unify us and bring everyone together.  Instead, we get another toxic disappointment, a faux intellectual who charms the ignorant and - rather than unify - reinforces their chauvinism.

He can be an ass, this is undeniable.  Sometimes his arguments are wrong, and sometimes even stupid.  I refer mainly to his political arguments.  I don't in any way hold his political opinions up to be in any way flawless.  He's also not the ideal academic, because a true ideal academic would be far less political and try to be more objective.  But sometimes he says things which need to be said, and most are afraid to say it because they'll be attacked like Peterson is.  He can also lose his temper sometimes, he's a pretty intense dude even when calm.  I think when you're attacked constantly on many tv programs you appear on, which is already a stressful environment, losing one's temper becomes even more likely.  If the standard is perfection, then he isn't that at all.

I don't think his role is to be a unifier.  Sure that would be nice.  The role he has chosen is to make unapologetic arguments that are contrary to the modern mainstream liberal paradigm, which of course will make you a lot of enemies from those who buy hard into the paradigm.

He has helped millions of people with his psychology/self-help stuff, this is by far his most valuable contribution.  A lot of it is to simply grow up and take responsibility in one's life. For those that refuse to do so or enable others to not do so I guess I can see why they might not like him for that.

None of this will change the way anyone sees him, people have made up their minds.  H8ers gonna h8.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 21, 2021, 05:12:39 pm
He can be an ass, this is undeniable.  Sometimes his arguments are wrong, and sometimes even stupid.  I refer mainly to his political arguments.  I don't in any way hold his political opinions up to be in any way flawless.  He's also not the ideal academic, because a true ideal academic would be far less political and try to be more objective.  But sometimes he says things which need to be said, and most are afraid to say it because they'll be attacked like Peterson is.  He can also lose his temper sometimes, he's a pretty intense dude even when calm.  I think when you're attacked constantly on many tv programs you appear on, which is already a stressful environment, losing one's temper becomes even more likely.  If the standard is perfection, then he isn't that at all.

Ok.

Quote
I don't think his role is to be a unifier.  Sure that would be nice.  The role he has chosen is to make unapologetic arguments that are contrary to the modern mainstream liberal paradigm, which of course will make you a lot of enemies from those who buy hard into the paradigm.

I'm just trying to explain why people get upset with him.

Quote
He has helped millions of people with his psychology/self-help stuff, this is by far his most valuable contribution.  A lot of it is to simply grow up and take responsibility in one's life. For those that refuse to do so or enable others to not do so I guess I can see why they might not like him for that.

If it helps a single person then good.  It's still 'iffy' and sketchy if he doles out advice and doesn't take it.  But ok.

Quote
None of this will change the way anyone sees him, people have made up their minds.  H8ers gonna h8.

I stand by my reason as to why h8trs h8 P8rson
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 21, 2021, 05:18:23 pm
I'm just trying to explain why people get upset with him.

He's a culture warrior and it's a culture war.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 21, 2021, 07:25:47 pm
He's a culture warrior and it's a culture war.

You're not getting it.

Who do the Trumpys hate more: John McCain or AOC ?  Mitt Romney or Oprah Winfrey ?

The turncoats are the ones that are hated.  Peterson is inside the fort - a U of T academic ? 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 21, 2021, 09:31:05 pm
You're not getting it.

Who do the Trumpys hate more: John McCain or AOC ?  Mitt Romney or Oprah Winfrey ?

The turncoats are the ones that are hated.  Peterson is inside the fort - a U of T academic ?

He's hated because people don't like his politics. All the people who hate him greatly dislike his political opinions. Transphobe anti-feminist upholding the white patriarchy.  Most people use the "he's not a great academic" as a cover to discredit him because they hate him.  Most people don't give a crap about lazy academics if they're fighting on their side of the culture war.  Hence Peterson and Michael Eric Dyson are celebs and then fight when they get in a room together because they say dumb and rude things as angry sword-carrying culture warriors...and their minions get angry and pile on.

CULTURE WAR.

100% of the people who like Jordan have right or center-right leanings, and 100% of the people who hate him have left or center-left leanings.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 21, 2021, 10:22:30 pm
That's weird that you read a book by someone you despise.  We all know you didn't read it and have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't need to eat s**t to know it's bad.

His self help stuff is trite and the rest of his schtick is toxic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2021, 11:06:12 am
Alberta's new K-6 curriculum... If you need further evidence that this is really f**ked up, it's been endorsed by the stupidest man alive (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex5mlwfVEAEMLzv?format=jpg&name=medium).

a true reveal twitter thread... showcasing some of Peterson's finest - video lasts forevah!

https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1331505661817937921
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 20, 2021, 08:01:59 pm
I bought Jordan's 10 rules book, was a good price, put it on the shelf for future perusing.  His book is filled with psychology citations/footnotes.  It is not a political book.

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 21th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

I will not respond to criticisms of him based on his political positions because its boring and besides my point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJrEaLYacwc
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 20, 2021, 08:11:41 pm

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

How would you know that unless he treated someone you knew ?

Quote
People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 20th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

The 20th century... thus... far.... uh...

I can accept that he's a good doctor but ... intellectually, no.
Quote
I will not respond to criticisms of him based on his political positions because its boring and besides my point.

Nobody should criticize anyone based on POSITIONS.  I trust that almost any position is held by someone somewhere smarter than you or me.

I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Jcl7tmt9k&t=1s
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 20, 2021, 09:56:45 pm
How would you know that unless he treated someone you knew ?

Reviews of his book from verified buyers on Amazon, Youtube comments, comments from him during interviews etc.

Quote
The 20th century... thus... far.... uh...
21st century, correct my error.

Quote
I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

He's not often a good debater on political topics.  Your criticism is fair.  Depending on his mood he tends to get agitated/angry easily.  Maybe some of this is due to him being a prof and used to being on a pulpit for decades rather than being legitimately questioned regularly.  I think some of it is also the nature of discussing politics, which is more personal and activist in nature.  Discussing politics can get very emotional and people get defensive easily ("religion and politics" as they say). I think people with an academic background in political science and similar subjects tend to be better at looking at political issues from an academic perspective rather than an activist perspective since that's how they're trained.  In political discussions he's positioned himself as a culture warrior rather than an academic.

People don't even want to listen to the academics on political issues.  You get accused of the 'all sides" argument and people want you to draw a line in the sand.  If you want to properly study ie: fascism or Donald Trump it's irrelevant whether you're for it or against it personally, that will just insert personal bias into your research.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 20, 2021, 10:26:10 pm
I have been listening to this (again) ... these people are intellectuals.  Note how they don't descend into a pissing match even though their positions are extremely different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Jcl7tmt9k&t=1s

Here's what i'm talking about.  Listen to this question and the response by Peterson, the whole clip should run about 4-5 minutes.  It's about attaining happiness, it's not about politics.  The answer is insightful.  This is the type of stuff that has helped many people:

https://youtu.be/qsHJ3LvUWTs?t=6968
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 21, 2021, 05:00:58 am
Ok, I think that the only thing that you are saying that I question is any evidence of brilliance.

So if you are saying it on the basis of online reviews of his self help books, I can't buy in.  Sure, it's great to have a program that is helpful to people but there are a lot of lost souls out there.  And as I said above, what we really need is someone who can both help these lost souls as well as unify.

But also you have given me a video, where I can judge for myself.  I will look at it.

I have a friend, far to the left of me and older, who moved to Vancouver Island and he started writing to me about JP.  Because I only know about his fumbling political statements I fought him.  But maybe there's something there.

I did one self help program: Seven Habits of Effective People by Covey.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 21, 2021, 02:17:36 pm
Here's what i'm talking about.  Listen to this question and the response by Peterson, the whole clip should run about 4-5 minutes.  It's about attaining happiness, it's not about politics.  The answer is insightful.  This is the type of stuff that has helped many people:
 

I suppose so.  But who ?  People who are lost, no doubt.  So it's a good bit of self-help for people adrift in a damaged society.

Do JP's own fans feel they need this advice ?  Or are they applauding him for telling other people to do it ?

He also falls on the same rocks that other moralists have: his own moral failing.

But I'll give you that this is the best part of his schtick.  I am also very sad that he made the very bad decision to get famous first as a political figure because that cut out the possibility for him to provide the greatest utility as a unifier.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 21, 2021, 03:29:13 pm
I bought Jordan's 10 rules book, was a good price, put it on the shelf for future perusing.  His book is filled with psychology citations/footnotes.  It is not a political book.

I still maintain that his political opinions are just one man's opinions, people will like or dislike them based on their political leanings so take them or leave them whatever (he has no formal academic expertise on politics), but his work as a clinical psychologist is fantastic if not brilliant and can and have helped and/or saved many, many people.  H8ers gonna H8 but the proof is in the pudding, meaning the countless who thank him for his work and the impact it has had on his life.

People will disagree, but IMO his work as a clinical psychologist makes him the most important public intellectual of the 21th century thus far.,simply based on the lives he's turning around  People should try to forget his politics and listen to what he has to say in his field of expertise.

Did every other public intellectual die?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 23, 2021, 05:24:16 pm
He also falls on the same rocks that other moralists have: his own moral failing.

And what would that be?

Quote
But I'll give you that this is the best part of his schtick.  I am also very sad that he made the very bad decision to get famous first as a political figure because that cut out the possibility for him to provide the greatest utility as a unifier.

He didn't decide to get famous.  He spoke his mind and everyone else made him famous.

He's not a unifier, that's not his M.O.  If that's your randomly made-up measuring stick he will keep disappointing you.  Do we need a unifier?  Sure.  But that's not the role he's made for himself.  He's a rockstar, in that he's standing up to authority and rebelling against the zietgeist, even if it means some people who defend it get uncomfortable or offended, and he dares to sometimes look like an arse while being constantly attacked.  Is there no room for someone to have the balls to have an opinion progressives don't agree with?  Why not?  If he's wrong sometimes, so what? He threatens the hegemony of the mainstream do-gooders and so they absolutely flip out and make up all sorts of BS about him.  Like "his diet made him sick" and all this nonsense you yourself have bought into.

There's no point in convincing you of anything here because it's pointless.  You have a long record of defending the social and cultural positions of whatever we're told is "correct" to us by the mainstream politically correct do-gooders.  You have been "socially conditioned":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning  If everyone were this compliant to authority it would be a gloomy world indeed.  Maybe myself and kimmy and Peterson and whomever else don't want to just shut up and obey.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 23, 2021, 05:47:15 pm
There are plenty of people who oppose progressives. 

He is touted as the voice we need right now.  Maybe that's not his fault.  But we need someone to unify.

But then again, the progressive voices are going to win out anyway,. Via revenge of the cradle.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 23, 2021, 06:23:58 pm
What are they going to win?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 23, 2021, 10:44:33 pm
What are they going to win?

The culture.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2021, 12:24:16 pm
The culture.

Which they will have to live with.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 02:14:34 pm

1. There's no point in convincing you of anything here because it's pointless.  You have a long record of defending the social and cultural positions of whatever we're told is "correct" to us by the mainstream politically correct do-gooders. 

2. You have been "socially conditioned":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning  If everyone were this compliant to authority it would be a gloomy world indeed.  Maybe myself and kimmy and Peterson and whomever else don't want to just shut up and obey.

1. Weird take.  It's like "you have a long history of agreeing with the mainstream whether it's vaccines, or believing that Trump lost the election" talks about who agrees with your opinions, not whether they can be justified.

2. I didn't write him off entirely,  I only assessed his overall worth as an intellectual.  You say "no, he's a self-help guy" and I say "ok, fine well he's better at that anyway".  And now here you say "he's a rebel and pisses people off" as though that is worth anything on its own.  It sounds pretty immature to me. 

What is the point of discussing social and cultural matters ?  To come to a mutual understanding... to move past these things.. it is NOT to define entrenched camps that can snipe and each other back and forth.  There's no precedent for us deciding to do that, yet in the culture wars media keeps framing things that way so that they can prosper from facilitating the fight.

At this point, anybody who is sick of pointless fighting (dicks in spas ? really ? we can't work that one out with a few towels ? some signs ?  list of rules ? ) should put a time or space limit on people who can't work it out. 

Peterson's initial framing of the disagreements around pronounce etc. could have been of great service to fixing the mire we're in now.  So, yes, I guess I do blame him for opting to become whatever he is now.

Also, if he was a drug addict or whatever it kind of negates his whole "lead by example...  work on yourself" schtick down to the nub.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 02:15:48 pm
Which they will have to live with.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they won't. 

And... those other people who complain about Communism and group think today mostly have no idea.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2021, 03:27:49 pm
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they won't. 

And... those other people who complain about Communism and group think today mostly have no idea.

Group think is for lazy people who don't want to think for themselves.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 03:41:11 pm
Group think is for lazy people who don't want to think for themselves.

Sure, except it's also a necessary element of social cohesion.  If people didn't think police had authority, laws were valid, or voting mattered we would have problems.  This is happening in the US with the Qanon and Sovereign Citizen movement.

I was going to write 'mob thinking' but wanted to be more polite.  Except, I shouldn't be.  Some of the thinking I read from thoughtful young progressives is illiberal and vengeful. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2021, 03:48:15 pm
It doesn't have to be Q or Sovereign for group think to have a downside. The line between group and mob is a very blurred one. We need to be careful that inclusiveness doesn't result in just replacing one excluded group with another. All change isn't progress.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 03:56:31 pm
It doesn't have to be Q or Sovereign for group think to have a downside. The line between group and mob is a very blurred one. We need to be careful that inclusiveness doesn't result in just replacing one excluded group with another. All change isn't progress.

It's not even that.  The millennial generation have been poorly served by our system.  They will not abide by anything that the older generation holds precious.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2021, 04:07:21 pm
It's not even that.  The millennial generation have been poorly served by our system.  They will not abide by anything that the older generation holds precious.

That's not what I'm talking about. Eventually every generation has to take responsibility for its own mistakes, it can't keep blaming dead people.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 04:15:39 pm
That's not what I'm talking about. Eventually every generation has to take responsibility for its own mistakes, it can't keep blaming dead people.

What mistakes do you think the millennials have made ?  Given that they are only starting to show their political power, I am expecting you to say 'none'.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2021, 04:55:31 pm
What mistakes do you think the millennials have made ?  Given that they are only starting to show their political power, I am expecting you to say 'none'.

If they are only starting to show their power they are only starting to make their mistakes.

Every generation thinks it is smarter than the one before and the one that came after.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 24, 2021, 07:04:02 pm
What mistakes?

I don't think any of the issues that are on the table assume any superior or interior intelligence.  Were the low tuitions of the past a dumb policy?  Economic policy involves winners and losers and the millennials are on the Short End.

As for identity politics, as I say it's more important to come up with a compromise and move on
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: wilber on July 25, 2021, 12:40:00 am
What mistakes?

I don't think any of the issues that are on the table assume any superior or interior intelligence.  Were the low tuitions of the past a dumb policy?  Economic policy involves winners and losers and the millennials are on the Short End.

As for identity politics, as I say it's more important to come up with a compromise and move on

Every generation makes mistakes. Humans are humans and all are a product of their time. To think one has some kind of moral superiority is just arrogance. Millennials may have got the short end of the stick but no one intended to put them there, certainly not their parents or grand parents.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 25, 2021, 05:02:08 am
Well it sounds like someone made a mistake then.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on August 07, 2021, 02:35:53 am
What is the point of discussing social and cultural matters ?  To come to a mutual understanding... to move past these things.. it is NOT to define entrenched camps that can snipe and each other back and forth.

I think the point of discussion is to give your take and subject it to criticism from others so that you can refine your opinions and come to the best possible solutions to problems.  There will never be mutual understanding, that's why we have different political parties etc, and sometimes the majority is just plain wrong.  The # of people who agree with something has nothing to do with its rightness or wrongness.  But we all have a duty to obey the laws ie: the will of the majority, and use democratic means to try and change laws we disagree with, because the alternative is chaos.  The very foundation of our society is build on this.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on August 07, 2021, 02:52:14 am
It's not even that.  The millennial generation have been poorly served by our system.  They will not abide by anything that the older generation holds precious.

I don't think its generational.  Most people since the early 1980's have been effed by the system, by deregulation and whatnot.  Middle aged people have a crisis of deaths of despair.  Drugs, suicide etc. due to lost jobs and whatnot, the 2008 recession which took their homes away too.  The wealthy and corrupt are winning.  The system is corrupt and broken, the wolves have control of it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on August 07, 2021, 08:18:04 am
I don't think its generational.  Most people since the early 1980's have been effed by the system, by deregulation and whatnot.  Middle aged people have a crisis of deaths of despair.  Drugs, suicide etc. due to lost jobs and whatnot, the 2008 recession which took their homes away too.  The wealthy and corrupt are winning.  The system is corrupt and broken, the wolves have control of it.

I'm sorry but SOMEBODY is winning.  All the stats I have seen say boomers are winning, gen x are treating water and millennials are losing, on the whole.  Anybody who owns a home in Canada has huge gains, if on paper.

1. I think the point of discussion is to give your take and subject it to criticism from others so that you can refine your opinions and come to the best possible solutions to problems. 

2. There will never be mutual understanding, that's why we have different political parties etc, and sometimes the majority is just plain wrong. 

3. The # of people who agree with something has nothing to do with its rightness or wrongness.  But we all have a duty to obey the laws ie: the will of the majority, and use democratic means to try and change laws we disagree with, because the alternative is chaos.  The very foundation of our society is build on this.
1. Exactly right.  That's an exchange of ideas and our social cohesion and governance depends on it.  With the disinformation and extreme social media posts pulling us apart we need this more than ever. This is why Peterson is the wrong man at the wrong time.
2. Agreed.
3. Agreed.

So where are we, then ?  All of these things you say we need, and I agree, are needed more than ever.  In steps a guy who could help.  Instead he just engages in finger-pointing amid a bunch of flawed logic, and aligns with disreputable agents (The Rebel) to cash in.  He moralizes in the classic preacher style, while hiding his own flaws.  When I ask people to defend him, they indicate his self-help rhetoric has helped people.  Ok, then.


Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on August 07, 2021, 10:03:03 am
I'm sorry but SOMEBODY is winning.  All the stats I have seen say boomers are winning, gen x are treating water and millennials are losing, on the whole.  Anybody who owns a home in Canada has huge gains, if on paper..

How does a boomer win in housing? Any time they move they'd still have to live somewhere and buy a home.  When your property value rises so does your property taxes.  The winners here are the banks and real estate developers. They're the ones lobbying governments at all levels and throwing money at them to do what they want.  If property taxes are going up then the politicians are winning too.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on August 07, 2021, 10:13:54 am
How does a boomer win in housing? Any time they move they'd still have to live somewhere and buy a home.  When your property value rises so does your property taxes.  The winners here are the banks and real estate developers. They're the ones lobbying governments at all levels and throwing money at them to do what they want.  If property taxes are going up then the politicians are winning too.

I have a boomer pal.  No savings.  Selling the Toronto home for $2M.  Moving to Elliott Lake.  No savings until now.  He won.

Real estate agents, flippers, and renovation people win.

People who sit on their home and just live won from the general economic benefits.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on August 07, 2021, 10:14:39 am
Back to Peterson: he's a schmoe.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on August 07, 2021, 10:16:37 am
Delete
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on August 07, 2021, 10:20:35 am
Back to Peterson: he's a schmoe.

He's selling poison and the cure for cancer.  Is he a schmoe for selling poison,  or a hero for selling his own cure for cancer?

I guess that makes him both. The solution: don't buy the poison, buy the cure for cancer.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on August 07, 2021, 11:29:23 am
He's selling poison and the cure for cancer.  Is he a schmoe for selling poison,  or a hero for selling his own cure for cancer?

I guess that makes him both. The solution: don't buy the poison, buy the cure for cancer.

Yes.  Schmoe to me.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 07, 2021, 11:35:11 pm
I have a boomer pal.  No savings.  Selling the Toronto home for $2M.  Moving to Elliott Lake.  No savings until now.  He won.

Real estate agents, flippers, and renovation people win.

People who sit on their home and just live won from the general economic benefits.

There’s a reason it’s called an ‘investment’. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:27:34 pm
Jordan Peterson has resigned from the U of T to spend more time with his grift.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 03:32:18 pm
Jordan Peterson has resigned from the U of T to spend more time with his grift.
Good.  They don’t deserve him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:35:52 pm
Good.  They don’t deserve him.

He hasn't actually taught there for the last few years while he was grifting shitty white men, hoovering up benzos, lying in a coma in a Russian mental institution and spreading antivaxx disinformation. They won't miss him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 03:36:18 pm
Jordan Peterson has resigned from the U of T to spend more time with his grift making more money and helping more people.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 03:39:50 pm
He hasn't actually taught there for the last few years while he was grifting shitty white men, hoovering up benzos, lying in a coma in a Russian mental institution and spreading antivaxx disinformation. They won't miss him.
I find that most people who harbour such hatred and dislike for this man have little knowledge as to what he actually teaches.  For one, he’s not a big proponent of paying people to not work.  So that in itself will rub you regressives the wrong way.  It’s not a surprise.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:40:13 pm


He doesn't have a clinical practice and now he's not a teacher or supervisor.

(https://www.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/WhatDoYouDo.gif)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 03:41:09 pm

Regressives really hate any message of personal responsibility.  I think it’s because they find it as a threat to their sh*tty lives.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:47:37 pm
I find that most people who harbour such hatred and dislike for this man have little knowledge as to what he actually teaches. For one, he’s not a big proponent of paying people to not work.  So that in itself will rub you regressives the wrong way.  It’s not a surprise.

1. Eat an all-meat diet
2. Wearing makeup invites sexual harassment in the workplace
3. Virologists are inventing different Covid strains to prolong the pandemic
4. Talking to women is hard because you can't punch them if they make you mad
5. Take responsibility for your own actions (unless that action is getting hooked on drugs)

Anything else?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:50:21 pm
Regressives really hate any message of personal responsibility.  I think it’s because they find it as a threat to their sh*tty lives.

Right-wingers rageshit their pants when they get asked to wear a mask in Walmart lmfao.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 03:51:06 pm
1. Eat an all-meat diet
2. Wearing makeup invites sexual harassment in the workplace
3. Virologists are inventing different Covid strains to prolong the pandemic
4. Talking to women is hard because you can't punch them if they make you mad
5. Take responsibility for your own actions (unless that action is getting hooked on drugs)

Anything else?
Nothing else, other than your bull crap.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 03:53:26 pm
Right-wingers rageshit their pants when they get asked to wear a mask in Walmart lmfao.
Libtards think that men can become women.  Lmao!!!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:56:39 pm
Libtards think that men can become women.  Lmao!!!

What's that got to do with "personal responsibility" tho

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 03:59:38 pm
Nothing else, other than your bull crap.

Peterson's extremely banal self-improvement message resonates so much with right-leaning people (especially young conservative men) because they are far more likely to be huge insecure losers from the jump.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 04:46:02 pm
He doesn't have a clinical practice and now he's not a teacher or supervisor.

Why would he need either?  He lectures to auditoriums full of people or does webcasts on youtube and writes best-selling books that just won't stop selling.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 04:53:30 pm
1. Eat an all-meat diet
He never said that.  He said it worked for him.  He and his daughter have food allergies.

Quote
2. Wearing makeup invites sexual harassment in the workplace

He never quite said such a thing.  He said women sexualize themselves in the workplace, which creates temptations for men.

Quote
3. Virologists are inventing different Covid strains to prolong the pandemic

Never heard this claim, link?

Quote
4. Talking to women is hard because you can't punch them if they make you mad

Wow no-spin zone in effect!

Quote
5. Take responsibility for your own actions (unless that action is getting hooked on drugs)

Did he fail to take responsibility for this?

Quote
Anything else?

Any other FOX News-worthy #fakenews you want to spread?  He also says don't be resentful or vindictive, especially of other people's success.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 04:58:17 pm
What's that got to do with "personal responsibility" tho

It's my personal responsibility to foster a society where women become like men, and men become like women, and if either literally want to become the opposite sex we will try to forget that their biology is still real or that gender and biology are 2 separate things despite what they want everyone to believe and despite hormones and plastic surgery designed to trick everyone into believing they are what they aren't.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 05:02:43 pm
It's my personal responsibility to foster a society where women become like men, and men become like women, and if either literally want to become the opposite sex we will try to forget that their biology is still real or that gender and biology are 2 separate things despite what they want everyone to believe and despite hormones and plastic surgery designed to trick everyone into believing they are what they aren't.


(https://img.ifunny.co/images/7139be8cd4a96b263bee47806c1d7122d373a8c3b03a9da9fcbb8e6cfd62d1a9_1.webp)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 05:05:53 pm
Any other FOX News-worthy #fakenews you want to spread?  He also says don't be resentful or vindictive, especially of other people's success.

The dude who wanted to build a blacklist of his colleagues who were teaching wrongthink said that? The guy whose entire career is built on grievances? lol
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 19, 2022, 05:08:47 pm
He never said that.  He said it worked for him.  He and his daughter have food allergies.

Like the one time he had a sip of apple cider that sent him into a month long depression?

Quote
He never quite said such a thing.  He said women sexualize themselves in the workplace, which creates temptations for men.

Well that's a pretty retarded thing to say.

And his claim was women who wear makeup and high heels are hypocrites if the complain about sexual harassment.

Quote
Never heard this claim, link?
Here's (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1483452764340600842?s=20) him talking about new COVID variants emerging when its "convenient for pharmaceutical companies".


Quote
Did he fail to take responsibility for this?

I dunno, who cares. If he allowed his life to get to such a state that he got hooked on drugs, maybe he shouldn't be criticizing the world around him. Pretty sure that's one of his rules.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 19, 2022, 05:53:08 pm
He's bonkers but he's making millions now from right wing Patreon rubes pretending he's Grandpa Walton...

I would like his is teachings more if he were more intellectually honest.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 19, 2022, 06:04:28 pm
He's bonkers but he's making millions now from right wing Patreon rubes pretending he's Grandpa Walton...

I would like his is teachings more if he were more intellectually honest.
I’ve only read his first book, and it was anything but bonkers.  It was just common sense, or at least it used to be. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 19, 2022, 07:18:26 pm
A lot of people who write good self-help books are themselves ... Bonkers
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 07:22:13 pm
The dude who wanted to build a blacklist of his colleagues who were teaching wrongthink said that?

Links or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: waldo on January 19, 2022, 07:30:00 pm
Here's (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1483452764340600842?s=20) him talking about new COVID variants emerging when its "convenient for pharmaceutical companies".


Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory (https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/europe/germany-lockdown-covid-restrictions-intl/index.html)

wait waldo, lookee what Jordan Peterson is up to... cause why lose an opportunity for manufactured misinformation drama, particularly if it helps support anti-vaxx positioning and presumes to leverage that ole' anti-vaxxer chestnut that COVID vaccines are experimental. Notwithstanding, of course, that the EU Commission head has said nothing about the 'Nuremberg Code' - that set of research ethics principles for human experimentation emanating from the Nuremberg trials at the end of the Second World War. Clearly Peterson and his ilk have no qualms in positioning COVID vaccination policies as being comparable to those Nuremberg trials most notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the political, military, judicial, and economic leadership of Nazi Germany, who planned, carried out, or otherwise participated in the Holocaust and other war crimes.

(https://i.imgur.com/mBnjvZJ.png)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 07:37:33 pm
Like the one time he had a sip of apple cider that sent him into a month long depression?

Link or it didn't happen.

Quote
And his claim was women who wear makeup and high heels are hypocrites if the complain about sexual harassment.

I believe he was talking about whether or not men and women can co-exist in the workplace without sexual harassment.  He said women wear things like high heels and lipstick to make themselves look sexually attractive to the opposite sex on the workplace, and this can create temptations for men and make them more likely to make sexual advances, and that women want men to find them sexually attractive in the workplace which is obviously true.  He didn't say it's an excuse for men to harass, but yeah maybe he said it kinda makes women hypocrites.  Why would you want to look sexually attractive if you didn't want to entice men?  Maybe it's just the "wrong" men who are hitting on these women?  Now obviously none of this is an excuse for clearly inappropriate and uninvited actions.

Here's (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1483452764340600842?s=20) him talking about new COVID variants emerging when its "convenient for pharmaceutical companies".[/quote]
Ok i disagree with him on this.  He isn't a doctor or biologist, he's just a dude with an opinion here.

Quote
I dunno, who cares. If he allowed his life to get to such a state that he got hooked on drugs, maybe he shouldn't be criticizing the world around him. Pretty sure that's one of his rules.

Maybe if there weren't millions of people like you on the internet trying to destroy his career every second of every day he wouldn't have fallen into a depression.  He did have his stuff together until he came across millions of people like you.  How do you think you or I would handle it?  Like peaches?  I would assume the stress of very carefully trying one to choose your words because one mispoken word leads to half of twitter reaming you out is a little stressful don't you think?  Do you think it's also stressful for countless online bullies to jump on the man while he gets sick from it and derives some kind of sick satisfaction from seeing him down on one knee?  Good job I guess you won that round eh?  You're clearly a better human than him!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 07:40:08 pm
He's bonkers but he's making millions now from right wing Patreon rubes pretending he's Grandpa Walton...

See above.

Thank you for shaming him for his bout of mental illness caused by the stresses created by people like Blackdog and Michael Hardner.  I'm sure these labels will help his recovery.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 07:43:04 pm
H8ters gonna h8.  Book sales don't lie.  Revel in glee as he helps millions of people transform their lives.  Quick name another private citizen who has helped more people in the last 5 years?  As I've said before, not everybody is going to agree with someone's political opinions, and neither do I, so as a pundit he's just that.  He's a brilliant psychologist, the numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 19, 2022, 08:36:17 pm
H8ters gonna h8.  Book sales don't lie.  Revel in glee as he helps millions of people transform their lives.  Quick name another private citizen who has helped more people in the last 5 years?  As I've said before, not everybody is going to agree with someone's political opinions, and neither do I, so as a pundit he's just that.  He's a brilliant psychologist, the numbers don't lie.

Bad books never sell well?

There are a lot of suckers who buy into this crap.  You’re proof.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 19, 2022, 08:44:12 pm
  He's a brilliant psychologist, the numbers don't lie.

Psychology and self-help aren't the same thing exactly.  If you think self help #s mean something I have an Oprah and Dr. Phil to sell you.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 19, 2022, 09:05:12 pm
Psychology and self-help aren't the same thing exactly.  If you think self help #s mean something I have an Oprah and Dr. Phil to sell you.

Oprah isn't a psychologist, Peterson is.  Peterson's books are well-cited and are based on psychology.   What is the difference in going to see a psychologist and getting their advice vs reading advice from a psychologist from a book?  One is simply personally tailored and more expensive.  Are you saying Peterson isn't qualified as a psychologist?

The devil's advocates here, as far as I know, haven't even read his book so what is the point of debating from ignorance?  If you dislike him for his political opinions and crabby tendencies, ok that's fair.

If he didn't help people, people wouldn't keep buying his books.  If anyone wants his self-help books to fail because they disagree with his political opinions, which are pretty much unrelated, then they are a spiteful and terrible human being.  The satisfaction from people seeing him suffer multiple medical issues is pretty disgusting, especially when they spread lies about the reasons for that suffering.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 19, 2022, 10:10:41 pm
Oprah isn't a psychologist, Peterson is.  Peterson's books are well-cited and are based on psychology.   What is the difference in going to see a psychologist and getting their advice vs reading advice from a psychologist from a book?  One is simply personally tailored and more expensive.  Are you saying Peterson isn't qualified as a psychologist?

The devil's advocates here, as far as I know, haven't even read his book so what is the point of debating from ignorance?  If you dislike him for his political opinions and crabby tendencies, ok that's fair.

If he didn't help people, people wouldn't keep buying his books.  If anyone wants his self-help books to fail because they disagree with his political opinions, which are pretty much unrelated, then they are a spiteful and terrible human being.  The satisfaction from people seeing him suffer multiple medical issues is pretty disgusting, especially when they spread lies about the reasons for that suffering.

I like that you ignore the Covid conspiratard stuff.  Or do you believe it too?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 05:38:55 am
See above.

Thank you for shaming him for his bout of mental illness caused by the stresses created by people like Blackdog and Michael Hardner.  I'm sure these labels will help his recovery.

Mental illness?  No I would say character flaw.

Why, did he self diagnose as mentally ill?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 05:41:55 am
   If you dislike him for his political opinions and crabby tendencies, ok that's fair.

 

Yes, this.  Also him spouting off on things he knows nothing about, like Marxism, climate change, sociology, economics etc.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 09:29:02 am
Links or it didn't happen.

U of T profs alarmed by Jordan Peterson's plan to target classes he calls 'indoctrination cults'  (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4396970/u-of-t-profs-alarmed-by-jordan-peterson-s-plan-to-target-classes-he-calls-indoctrination-cults-1.4396974)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 09:41:39 am
Link or it didn't happen.

 Link
 (https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1331513298194468864?s=20)

Quote
I believe he was talking about whether or not men and women can co-exist in the workplace without sexual harassment.  He said women wear things like high heels and lipstick to make themselves look sexually attractive to the opposite sex on the workplace, and this can create temptations for men and make them more likely to make sexual advances, and that women want men to find them sexually attractive in the workplace which is obviously true.

LOL no it's not, that's totally insane.

Quote
He didn't say it's an excuse for men to harass, but yeah maybe he said it kinda makes women hypocrites. Why would you want to look sexually attractive if you didn't want to entice men?  Maybe it's just the "wrong" men who are hitting on these women?  Now obviously none of this is an excuse for clearly inappropriate and uninvited actions.

Because they aren't dressing to be sexually attractive?

And yeah, it's totally an excuse for men who harass women (and given the rumours that JP is facing a few sexual harassment suits, not a surprise).

Quote
Maybe if there weren't millions of people like you on the internet trying to destroy his career every second of every day he wouldn't have fallen into a depression. He did have his stuff together until he came across millions of people like you.  How do you think you or I would handle it?  Like peaches?  I would assume the stress of very carefully trying one to choose your words because one mispoken word leads to half of twitter reaming you out is a little stressful don't you think?  Do you think it's also stressful for countless online bullies to jump on the man while he gets sick from it and derives some kind of sick satisfaction from seeing him down on one knee?  Good job I guess you won that round eh?  You're clearly a better human than him!

"So what do you do in the face of that suffering? Try to reduce it! Start with yourself, what good are you? Get yourself together for christ’s sake so that when your father dies you’re not whining away in a corner and you can help plan the funeral. And you can stand up solidly so that people can rely on you. That’s better! Don’t be a damn victim!"-JP

I guess the point, that the self-appointed expert in self-improvement through personal responsibility and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps was completely incapable of following his own advice, completely eludes you, hey?

As for how i would handle it if I was in his shoes? I would simply log off Twitter and spend more time with my money, er, family. Because I'm not a malignant narcissist with a God complex.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 10:20:00 am
I’ve only read his first book, and it was anything but bonkers.  It was just common sense, or at least it used to be.

I think the point is he would be languishing in obscurity if the only thing he had to offer was his utterly banal self-help schtick and he knows it, hence the culture war gifting.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 11:23:11 am
U of T profs alarmed by Jordan Peterson's plan to target classes he calls 'indoctrination cults'  (https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-edition-1.4396970/u-of-t-profs-alarmed-by-jordan-peterson-s-plan-to-target-classes-he-calls-indoctrination-cults-1.4396974)

Cancel culture again...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 11:43:23 am
Cancel culture again...

From my link:

Quote
In an interview with As It Happens last year, Peterson said the "continual careless pushing of people by left wing radicals is dangerously waking up the right wing."

"So you can consider this a prophecy from me if you want. Inside the collective is a beast and the beast uses its fists. If you wake up the beast then violence emerges. I'm afraid that this continual pushing by radical left wingers is going to wake up the beast," he said.

This weepy little Kermit-voiced creep really believes victims are responsible for their own violent victimization (unless the victim is Jordan Peterson and the violence is in the form of mean tweets).

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 12:04:47 pm
From my link:

This weepy little Kermit-voiced creep really believes victims are responsible for their own violent victimization (unless the victim is Jordan Peterson and the violence is in the form of mean tweets).

So he's responding to a social and collaborative approach to mitigate force with a threat of more force. 

He doesn't believe in dialogue, clearly.  We should have guessed this when he overreacted on proposed bill C-16...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 20, 2022, 12:23:49 pm
From my link:

This weepy little Kermit-voiced creep really believes victims are responsible for their own violent victimization (unless the victim is Jordan Peterson and the violence is in the form of mean tweets).
It’s not what he believes at all.  You continue to take everything he says out of context.  Probably on purpose, as your brain is too small to grasp concepts with nuance.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 01:10:24 pm
It’s not what he believes at all. You continue to take everything he says out of context.  Probably on purpose, as your brain is too small to grasp concepts with nuance.

If I had a dollar for every time some braindead JP stan told me I was taking something he said out of context I'd have more money than that chucklehead.

It's abundantly clear that JP's one of those freaks who thinks fascist violence is a natural ("Inside the collective is a beast and the beast uses its fists."), inevitable and understandable response to wokeness.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 01:12:20 pm
So he's responding to a social and collaborative approach to mitigate force with a threat of more force. 

He doesn't believe in dialogue, clearly.  We should have guessed this when he overreacted on proposed bill C-16...

Evidently, using violence is bad if you're protesting Jordan Peterson speaking on your campus, but it's totally understandable response to being asked to use someone's preferred pronouns.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 01:58:22 pm
Evidently, using violence is bad if you're protesting Jordan Peterson speaking on your campus, but it's totally understandable response to being asked to use someone's preferred pronouns.

And ASKED not FORCED ...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 20, 2022, 02:00:38 pm
Evidently, using violence is bad if you're protesting Jordan Peterson speaking on your campus, but it's totally understandable response to being asked to use someone's preferred pronouns.
You’re insane.  None of that is true.  I’m sorry that you’ve been so thoroughly misinformed.  I’m embarrassed for you.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 20, 2022, 02:01:37 pm
And ASKED not FORCED ...
I’m embarrassed for you as well.  You’re so grossly misinformed that a discussion isn’t even possible.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 20, 2022, 02:04:12 pm
I’m embarrassed for you as well.  You’re so grossly misinformed that a discussion isn’t even possible.

Not sure what you mean.  Did Peterson not have to embarassingly retract his fantasm that C-16 would compel speech ?

[checks notes]

Yes.  Yes that did happen.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 02:31:11 pm
You’re insane.  None of that is true.  I’m sorry that you’ve been so thoroughly misinformed.  I’m embarrassed for you.

Not an argument.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 20, 2022, 02:32:00 pm
I’m embarrassed for you as well.  You’re so grossly misinformed that a discussion isn’t even possible.

Classic avoidance tactic lol. What a coward.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 20, 2022, 02:40:38 pm
Quote
…women want men to find them sexually attractive in the workplace which is obviously true.

This is creepy.  Stop making excuses to be a fuckin’ creep to the women you work with.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 12:09:26 pm
Not sure what you mean.  Did Peterson not have to embarassingly retract his fantasm that C-16 would compel speech ?

[checks notes]

Yes.  Yes that did happen.

Did he ever actually retract anything he said about c16 or did he just keep ploughing forward like nothing happened?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 21, 2022, 12:23:34 pm
Did he ever actually retract anything he said about c16 or did he just keep ploughing forward like nothing happened?

He is remarkably unaccountable for his own errors, as you know, so you have to always read between the lines with him.  Slavoj Zizek knew this in the debate, so he cleverly gave him little mouse holes to escape scot free from his bad arguments.  This was done, I suspect, so Slavoj could siphon off the 1% or so of Jordan bros who might recognize a superior intellect.

Anyway with C-16 he said something to the parliamentary committee about having seen something on an Ontario Human Rights Commission page that caused him to be concerned that speech would be 'compelled' and then said that passage was removed so he had no evidence anymore...

Blah blah blah...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 12:35:54 pm
He is remarkably unaccountable for his own errors, as you know, so you have to always read between the lines with him.  Slavoj Zizek knew this in the debate, so he cleverly gave him little mouse holes to escape scot free from his bad arguments.  This was done, I suspect, so Slavoj could siphon off the 1% or so of Jordan bros who might recognize a superior intellect.

Anyway with C-16 he said something to the parliamentary committee about having seen something on an Ontario Human Rights Commission page that caused him to be concerned that speech would be 'compelled' and then said that passage was removed so he had no evidence anymore...

Blah blah blah...

LOL my man doesn't know how to take a screenshot I guess.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 21, 2022, 12:53:49 pm
LOL my man doesn't know how to take a screenshot I guess.

CLEAN YOUR ROOM
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 01:07:56 pm
CLEAN YOUR ROOM

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/389/629/56e.jpg)

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/028/154/Screen_Shot_2019-01-14_at_1.23.53_PM.jpg)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:09:48 pm
Mental illness?  No I would say character flaw.

Why, did he self diagnose as mentally ill?

So getting depressed and becoming physically dependent to prescription narcotics is a character flaw?

What does any of this have to do with anything, besides being a pretty nefarious attempt to assassinate his character in order to discredit him by peddling lies, which you've done on many occasions btw.  Also, don't believe everything you read on twitter.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 21, 2022, 03:15:12 pm
So getting depressed and becoming physically dependent to prescription narcotics is a character flaw?

What does any of this have to do with anything, besides being a pretty nefarious attempt to assassinate his character in order to discredit him by peddling lies, which you've done on many occasions btw.  Also, don't believe everything you read on twitter.

Why should our tax dollars go to pay the salary of a drug addict?   I bet the public institution at which he worked offered drug counseling too, at our expense!  Did they make sure he wasn’t stealing at his plush university job to feed his habit? 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:23:30 pm
Link
 (https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1331513298194468864?s=20)

Ok he's saying he probably has an allergy to sulphites.  What is your point?

Quote
LOL no it's not, that's totally insane.

Because they aren't dressing to be sexually attractive?

And yeah, it's totally an excuse for men who harass women (and given the rumours that JP is facing a few sexual harassment suits, not a surprise).

So a woman who wears lipstick to make her lips appear redder as occurs during sexual arousal and wears high heels to make her calves tighter and lengthens the lines on her feet to appear like she's tip-toeing isn't trying to look sexually attractive?  Why doesn't she just wear a loose dress and some flat shoes to work?  We all know the answer.

Also, more unsubstantiated rumours and gossip to undermine his character (ad hominem).  Let's assume he has raped 18 women.  Ok so then he'd be a horrible person.  How would this undermine the advice in his books?

Quote
"So what do you do in the face of that suffering? Try to reduce it! Start with yourself, what good are you? Get yourself together for christ’s sake so that when your father dies you’re not whining away in a corner and you can help plan the funeral. And you can stand up solidly so that people can rely on you. That’s better! Don’t be a damn victim!"-JP

I guess the point, that the self-appointed expert in self-improvement through personal responsibility and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps was completely incapable of following his own advice, completely eludes you, hey?

So your point is that he's human?  Ok.  Let's assume he's a total hypocrite and can't follow any of his own advice.  So what?  Does that mean his advice is not good advice?  Why do I (or you) care about what he does in his personal life, other than using them as ad hominems?  Do you have anything to say about his actual arguments, especially with the his psychological advice, or do you want to continue with the personal attacks and character assassinations and myriad of other ad hominems that are totally menaingless?  It's quite resentful and petty to be honest.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Quote
As for how i would handle it if I was in his shoes? I would simply log off Twitter and spend more time with my money, er, family.

You should write a book and make this a rule, pretty good advice.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:28:41 pm
So he's responding to a social and collaborative approach to mitigate force with a threat of more force. 

He doesn't believe in dialogue, clearly.  We should have guessed this when he overreacted on proposed bill C-16...

He's not threatening violence, he's making a prediction that others will use violence.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:32:22 pm
If I had a dollar for every time some braindead JP stan told me I was taking something he said out of context I'd have more money than that chucklehead.

It's abundantly clear that JP's one of those freaks who thinks fascist violence is a natural ("Inside the collective is a beast and the beast uses its fists."), inevitable and understandable response to wokeness.

LOL what???

No, he's saying if radicals keep pushing dumb **** onto people then the other radicals (the ones with a lot of guns) will start getting fed up and push back with violence.  See:  Rittenhouse,
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:35:14 pm
Evidently, using violence is bad if you're protesting Jordan Peterson speaking on your campus, but it's totally understandable response to being asked to use someone's preferred pronouns.

This is a totally inaccurate summary of his argument.  Please improve your reading and auditory comprehension.  You and Michael are literally every twitter bully.  Please keep tweeting your #fakenews to help further the erosion of society.  Unbelievable. I'm having a discussion with a couple of 3 year-olds.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 21, 2022, 03:35:28 pm
1. So getting depressed and becoming physically dependent to prescription narcotics is a character flaw?

2. What does any of this have to do with anything, besides being a pretty nefarious attempt to assassinate his character

3. ... in order to discredit him by peddling lies, which you've done on many occasions btw.  Also, don't believe everything you read on twitter.
1. not in my eyes but probably in the view of his philosophy of moral turpitude
2. I resent that.  I assassinate his character in plain day
3. I don't need to discredit him, he does that on his own.  If you find me lying about Peterson post it and I will retract.  I respect you that much.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 21, 2022, 03:36:04 pm
He's not threatening violence, he's making a prediction that others will use violence.

Ok point taken.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:37:37 pm
So he's responding to a social and collaborative approach to mitigate force with a threat of more force. 

He doesn't believe in dialogue, clearly.  We should have guessed this when he overreacted on proposed bill C-16...

Also, I think it would be useful to take the critical thinking skills you use to disarm #angertainment by rightwing rags like the National Post and apply them equally to people schilling the same thing on the left, like blackdog is doing and apparently yourself as well.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:39:52 pm
If I had a dollar for every time some braindead JP stan told me I was taking something he said out of context I'd have more money than that chucklehead.

If I had a dollar for every time you take something someone says or writes and repeat it back as a completely fabricated lie of its former self based on what you want to hear rather than what was said...

Are you Cathy Newman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A99G6O721gA

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:41:24 pm
Not sure what you mean.  Did Peterson not have to embarassingly retract his fantasm that C-16 would compel speech ?

[checks notes]

Yes.  Yes that did happen.

Link?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:49:04 pm
1. not in my eyes but probably in the view of his philosophy of moral turpitude
2. I resent that.  I assassinate his character in plain day
3. I don't need to discredit him, he does that on his own.  If you find me lying about Peterson post it and I will retract.  I respect you that much.

1. I'm starting to doubt this.  C'mon Michael.
3. Ok thank you i would appreciate that.  But seriously, do you not see the blatant mischaracterizations blackdog is peddling?  They are either purposefully lying, or they have cognitive issues, or they have a legit mental illness, and I suspect its #1.  Use your own standards regardless of confirmation bias.  The culture wars are dragging you into its beast mouth.  It already has blackdog by the jugular.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 03:50:59 pm
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/389/629/56e.jpg)

Ok sometimes he doesn't clean his rooms.  Does this make the advice any less correct or useful?

I can argue murder is wrong and then kill 5 people, does that mean my argument is any less correct?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 04:00:38 pm
Ok he's saying he probably has an allergy to sulphites.  What is your point?

Sulphite allergies can cause sneezing, hives or, in extreme case, anaphylaxis. They don't render you incapable of sleep for an entire month.

Quote
So a woman who wears lipstick to make her lips appear redder as occurs during sexual arousal and wears high heels to make her calves tighter and lengthens the lines on her feet to appear like she's tip-toeing isn't trying to look sexually attractive?  Why doesn't she just wear a loose dress and some flat shoes to work? We all know the answer.

If you genuinely think women in your office are wearing heels and make up and not mumus and clogs because they want to to make you **** and not because those are part of society's standard for professional attire, HR should really keep an eye on you.

Quote
So your point is that he's human?  Ok.  Let's assume he's a total hypocrite and can't follow any of his own advice.  So what? Does that mean his advice is not good advice?

Yes. Remember one of his rules is you can't criticize or try and change the world until you have your own house in order, yet he was going around railing against cultural marxism and wokeness and his other various bugbears all while high as a kite. He's full of ****.

Quote
Why do I (or you) care about what he does in his personal life, other than using them as ad hominems?  Do you have anything to say about his actual arguments, especially with the his psychological advice, or do you want to continue with the personal attacks and character assassinations and myriad of other ad hominems that are totally menaingless?  It's quite resentful and petty to be honest.

I've already said his "advice" is stuff they teach learn in kindergarten. How is any of this new to anyone?

Also you keep crying "ad hominem" when his personal life (in this case, his abject failure to practice what he preaches) is totally relevant. It's also funny given that he's such a **** creep.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 04:02:15 pm
LOL what???

No, he's saying if radicals keep pushing dumb **** onto people then the other radicals (the ones with a lot of guns) will start getting fed up and push back with violence.  See:  Rittenhouse,

This is no different than saying a woman who walks around in a short skirt is going to get r*ped and the implication is that the victims are at fault.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 04:07:10 pm
If I had a dollar for every time you take something someone says or writes and repeat it back as a completely fabricated lie of its former self based on what you want to hear rather than what was said...

Cite?

Examples?

This is a totally inaccurate summary of his argument.  Please improve your reading and auditory comprehension.  You and Michael are literally every twitter bully.  Please keep tweeting your #fakenews to help further the erosion of society.  Unbelievable. I'm having a discussion with a couple of 3 year-olds.

Ad hominem! Mods! mods!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 21, 2022, 04:07:46 pm
Ok sometimes he doesn't clean his rooms.  Does this make the advice any less correct or useful?

I can argue murder is wrong and then kill 5 people, does that mean my argument is any less correct?

Are you familiar with the term "credibility"?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 21, 2022, 04:46:37 pm
Also, I think it would be useful to take the critical thinking skills you use to disarm #angertainment by rightwing rags like the National Post and apply them equally to people schilling the same thing on the left, like blackdog is doing and apparently yourself as well.

Hey man, I fully admit having Trump derangement syndrome and Peterson drangement syndrome.. doesn't mean my criticisms aren't valid. How often do you see me totally lambasting somebody on here?  That's personal...

Sorry but I too am human.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 07:35:20 pm
Sulphite allergies can cause sneezing, hives or, in extreme case, anaphylaxis. They don't render you incapable of sleep for an entire month.

Ok you're a doctor now.

Quote
If you genuinely think women in your office are wearing heels and make up and not mumus and clogs because they want to to make you **** and not because those are part of society's standard for professional attire, HR should really keep an eye on you.

Well no, but I don't think feelings of sexual attraction automatically go away when you step through the office door, which was his point.  And he also states that men and women working together in the workplace is also a relatively new phenomena that has only been widespread the last 30-40 years, so we're still trying to figure this out amongst ourselves.

Quote
Yes. Remember one of his rules is you can't criticize or try and change the world until you have your own house in order, yet he was going around railing against cultural marxism and wokeness and his other various bugbears all while high as a kite. He's full of ****.

This is the 1 rule I don't quite agree with.  Arguments are valid or not valid based on their merit and not on the experience of the one making them.

On the other hand, what he is saying with this rule is that there are some people who want to change the entire structure of society, government, the economy etc and think they know what's best for everyone else when they don't even have any of their own s**t together and don't even know how to run their own house, let alone a society.  So he's not entirely wrong on that.  If your argument that Peterson can be put in this category well sure, he's not perfect and i don't agree with everything he says, and therefore should not run society which is why we have democracy rather than dictatorship.  We are all flawed, to various degrees.  The collective consensus is better at deciding things that 1 person.

Quote
I've already said his "advice" is stuff they teach learn in kindergarten. How is any of this new to anyone?

Why is everyone desperate for this advice then?  These are basic rules of thumb society has abandoned because society thinks holding people's hands and wrapping them in bubble-wrap is the compassionate and most useful way to help people.  His basic philosophy is:  stop coddling yourself and others, take responsibility for your life and your actions.  He's 100% correct, even if he always doesn't follow these rules himself, but he should follow them.

Quote
Also you keep crying "ad hominem" when his personal life (in this case, his abject failure to practice what he preaches) is totally relevant.

Why is it relevant if it's still good advice?  Let's pretend he's a **** serial killer.  His advice is still good.  The Cosby Show was still funny despite Cosby being a rapist.  MLK was still correct on so many points despite sleeping around on his wife.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 07:38:35 pm
Are you familiar with the term "credibility"?

Are you?

He never said he allows follows all of his rules all of the time.  It's easier to give good advice than to follow it yourself.

Again, let's just assume he's a mass rapist **** murderer who doesn't clean his room and is coked out on meth.  So what?  I never said we should build statues of the man, i'm saying he has valuable things to say.  If you would open your ears for 2 seconds maybe you'd hear them.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 21, 2022, 07:41:57 pm
Hey man, I fully admit having Trump derangement syndrome and Peterson drangement syndrome.. doesn't mean my criticisms aren't valid. How often do you see me totally lambasting somebody on here?  That's personal...

Sorry but I too am human.

You get credit for admitting it.  It takes a man to admit when they have erred.  Our pride gets in the way too much (see: Trump).   I too am not anywhere close to flawless on here.  Ok so we have established that neither of us are Donald Trump, this is progress lol.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 21, 2022, 07:53:02 pm
Coked out on meth?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 22, 2022, 07:32:34 am
Link?
https://youtu.be/g7V-QvOyEHA
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 22, 2022, 07:35:17 am
1. I'm starting to doubt this.  C'mon Michael.
3. Ok thank you i would appreciate that.  But seriously, do you not see the blatant mischaracterizations blackdog is peddling?  They are either purposefully lying, or they have cognitive issues, or they have a legit mental illness, and I suspect its #1.  Use your own standards regardless of confirmation bias.  The culture wars are dragging you into its beast mouth.  It already has blackdog by the jugular.

I'm not reading all the posts on he the the thread.... I will try to pay attention
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: cybercoma on January 22, 2022, 08:06:58 am
Yes, this.  Also him spouting off on things he knows nothing about, like Marxism, climate change, sociology, economics etc.
It's not necessarily that he doesn't know about these things, admittedly. I'm sure he's aware of them. It's that he used his institutional and professional credibility to talk about subjects he's not an expert in as though he was. People who agree with his mind-numbing drivel love to point out how he's a professor and an expert without actually knowing what his expertise is in or how far out of his element he actually is. It's like bringing your car to a dentist for eye exam when listening to him talk about those other subjects. Yet folks will say, "but he's a doctor" as if it has any relevance in the domains he speaks on. Further still, he's just giving commentary on these topics opinions. His bullshit isn't academically rigorous at all, which is why publishes popular media and not actual studies about the nonsense he's on about.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 22, 2022, 01:55:35 pm
Ok you're a doctor now.

You don't have to be a doctor to know that depression and long term loss of sleep isn't something anyone gets from a single sip of cider.

Quote
Well no, but I don't think feelings of sexual attraction automatically go away when you step through the office door, which was his point. 

No, his claim-and you agreed-is that women at work intentionally dress in a way to provoke sexual arousal. And now you're just shifting the goalposts because you know in your heart how insane that sounds.

Quote
And he also states that men and women working together in the workplace is also a relatively new phenomena that has only been widespread the last 30-40 years, so we're still trying to figure this out amongst ourselves.

Men and women have been working together for far longer than that but also, 30-40 years is ample time to learn basic lessons like "don't sexually harass your colleagues".

Quote
This is the 1 rule I don't quite agree with.  Arguments are valid or not valid based on their merit and not on the experience of the one making them.

On the other hand, what he is saying with this rule is that there are some people who want to change the entire structure of society, government, the economy etc and think they know what's best for everyone else when they don't even have any of their own s**t together and don't even know how to run their own house, let alone a society.  So he's not entirely wrong on that.  If your argument that Peterson can be put in this category well sure, he's not perfect and i don't agree with everything he says, and therefore should not run society which is why we have democracy rather than dictatorship.  We are all flawed, to various degrees.  The collective consensus is better at deciding things that 1 person.

Why should someone have to have their own life in order to want to see change in the world? That's moronic.

Quote
Why is everyone desperate for this advice then?  These are basic rules of thumb society has abandoned because society thinks holding people's hands and wrapping them in bubble-wrap is the compassionate and most useful way to help people.

If no one follows the advice, including himself, then maybe the advice isn't very useful.

Quote
His basic philosophy is:  stop coddling yourself and others, take responsibility for your life and your actions.  He's 100% correct, even if he always doesn't follow these rules himself, but he should follow them.

That's extremely stupid because it doesn't acknowledge people in different circumstances will require different approaches.

Quote
Why is it relevant if it's still good advice?  Let's pretend he's a **** serial killer.  His advice is still good.  The Cosby Show was still funny despite Cosby being a rapist.  MLK was still correct on so many points despite sleeping around on his wife.

It's not good advice either.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 22, 2022, 01:57:25 pm
Are you?

He never said he allows follows all of his rules all of the time.  It's easier to give good advice than to follow it yourself.

Again, let's just assume he's a mass rapist **** murderer who doesn't clean his room and is coked out on meth.  So what?  I never said we should build statues of the man, i'm saying he has valuable things to say.  If you would open your ears for 2 seconds maybe you'd hear them.

His useful stuff is banal, unoriginal and overshadowed by all the other garbage that spews out of his mouth. Get a better hero.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 22, 2022, 02:33:15 pm
So far so good 🙂
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 06:02:04 pm
Coked out on meth?

Methed out on coke?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 06:02:48 pm
https://youtu.be/g7V-QvOyEHA

Is there a part in the video you'd like me to watch?  I can't watch 10 mins.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 06:15:49 pm
It's not necessarily that he doesn't know about these things, admittedly. I'm sure he's aware of them. It's that he used his institutional and professional credibility to talk about subjects he's not an expert in as though he was. People who agree with his mind-numbing drivel love to point out how he's a professor and an expert without actually knowing what his expertise is in or how far out of his element he actually is. It's like bringing your car to a dentist for eye exam when listening to him talk about those other subjects. Yet folks will say, "but he's a doctor" as if it has any relevance in the domains he speaks on. Further still, he's just giving commentary on these topics opinions. His bullshit isn't academically rigorous at all, which is why publishes popular media and not actual studies about the nonsense he's on about.

Right, I agree, his political opinions are his own opinions, take it or leave it.  Politically he's just a guy with some opinions.  People can agree or disagree with them on a point-by-point basis just like everyone else.  He's the Noam Chomsky of the right.  Noam has no expertise in politics academically.  But he's well-read in terms of politics, moreso than Peterson.  But I also think Jordan and people like him on the right sometimes make good arguments that are contrary to the progressive ideological zietgiest that dominates the mainstream like the left-leaning media and education systems etc., and we need to hear these argument.  If someone disagrees with them fine.  There's also a bunch of poor arguments politically that Jordan makes that I don't agree with.

If you want to me to say Jordan is an infallible intellectual God who is 100% right 100% time i'm not going to argue that.  If you want to be to say the man is 100% wrong 100% of the time I'm not going to do that either.  Neither statement is true.  People on the left suffer from Peterson derangement syndrome, similar to Trump derangement syndrome.  If 50% of what they do or say is bad, that doesn't mean the other 50% is bad by association.  If people opened their ears instead of only listening to their hatred they might learn something.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 06:26:47 pm
You don't have to be a doctor to know that depression and long term loss of sleep isn't something anyone gets from a single sip of cider.

Yes actually you do.

Quote
No, his claim-and you agreed-is that women at work intentionally dress in a way to provoke sexual arousal. And now you're just shifting the goalposts because you know in your heart how insane that sounds.

I typed out a point, but you won't care, you'll just say something ridiculous because your ego won't ever concede any logical point anyways and your anger will double-down.  Fight on, culture warrior.

Quote
That's extremely stupid because it doesn't acknowledge people in different circumstances will require different approaches.

Yes he does.  He also says there's a limit to taking on responsibility and where it can make you unhealthy.  Do you think a PhD in clinical psychology would advise a client who is a cancer patient with no energy to take on an extra job?  But you won't concede a point because of your ego and anger, so please what quip will you respond with next?  I can't wait!

Quote
It's not good advice either.

Feel free to take none of his advice, I don't care.  This is a useless discussion and i'm ending it.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 06:29:52 pm
His useful stuff is banal, unoriginal and overshadowed by all the other garbage that spews out of his mouth. Get a better hero.

The proof is in the pudding.  He's helped millions, he gets tons of letters and people come up to him at his events.  You are objectively wrong.  If this bothers you that he's helped so many people, maybe you should think about why that is because there's obviously something wrong with you.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 22, 2022, 08:38:55 pm
I can’t take anyone seriously who thought an all-meat diet was good for one’s health.  The man is clearly an idiot.

The stuff he says in interviews should eliminate him from giving any advice on anything.  His fanboys lap it up though!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/08/the-peterson-family-meat-cleanse/567613/
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 22, 2022, 09:46:20 pm
Is there a part in the video you'd like me to watch?  I can't watch 10 mins.

In the first two minutes.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 22, 2022, 11:16:32 pm
I can’t take anyone seriously who thought an all-meat diet was good for one’s health.  The man is clearly an idiot.

The stuff he says in interviews should eliminate him from giving any advice on anything.  His fanboys lap it up though!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/08/the-peterson-family-meat-cleanse/567613/

His daughter had food allergies she didn't know about and an elimination diet apparently helped all sorts of her health problems.  So he tried trial and error of eliminating certain foods from his diet and apparently helped him.  I think he's really sensitive or allergic to certain foods like his daughter.  I don't think he ever told others to eat only meat.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 23, 2022, 01:20:00 pm
Yes actually you do.

No you don't.

Quote
I typed out a point, but you won't care, you'll just say something ridiculous because your ego won't ever concede any logical point anyways and your anger will double-down.  Fight on, culture warrior.

Take the L.

Quote
Yes he does.  He also says there's a limit to taking on responsibility and where it can make you unhealthy.Do you think a PhD in clinical psychology would advise a client who is a cancer patient with no energy to take on an extra job?  But you won't concede a point because of your ego and anger, so please what quip will you respond with next?  I can't wait!

I fins it fascinating that throughout this discussion, I and others have presented numerous examples of this guy being a whackadoodle and your whole defense of him is "he's popular and has some good ideas" which doesn't address the critiques people are making at all. Also you keep talking about "oh you just need to listen" assuming we haven't done so already.

The proof is in the pudding.  He's helped millions, he gets tons of letters and people come up to him at his events.  You are objectively wrong.  If this bothers you that he's helped so many people, maybe you should think about why that is because there's obviously something wrong with you.

Yeah lots of people who are in cults talk about how being in a cult helped them become better people.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 23, 2022, 01:34:52 pm
The proof is in the pudding.  He's helped millions, he gets tons of letters and people come up to him at his events.   

Leaving aside my PDS - yes I can accept that millions love his self-help.

Now... why does he need to comment on legal implications of C16 (incorrectly), Climate Change, and other topics that are not in his field ?  And why do people treat him like a personality in such respects and not an academic with expertise in one field ?

This is what Don Cherry did - a long-retired hockey coach who lectured people about sociology. 

Part of the problem in this country is that we have no public intellectuals, and we elevate folksy celebrities to that level.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 23, 2022, 01:40:15 pm
Leaving aside my PDS - yes I can accept that millions love his self-help.

Now... why does he need to comment on legal implications of C16 (incorrectly), Climate Change, and other topics that are not in his field ?  And why do people treat him like a personality in such respects and not an academic with expertise in one field ?

This is what Don Cherry did - a long-retired hockey coach who lectured people about sociology. 

Part of the problem in this country is that we have no public intellectuals, and we elevate folksy celebrities to that level.

(https://preview.redd.it/ro5pag8fxa911.jpg?auto=webp&s=62d62406a2278cbefbcb9f8c9e62ea2632d3207f)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 23, 2022, 06:26:12 pm
Leaving aside my PDS - yes I can accept that millions love his self-help.

Now... why does he need to comment on legal implications of C16 (incorrectly), Climate Change, and other topics that are not in his field ?  And why do people treat him like a personality in such respects and not an academic with expertise in one field ?

I guess he comments because he has a right to?  Like why do you and I and Jimmy Kimmell and Jon Stewart and the ladies on The View and every celeb/user on Twitter comment on social issues?  Because they can.

I guess he was also concerned c-16 or whatever was going to "compel speech". I still have no idea if he was right or wrong on that.   The most important thing is it started a discussion on the bill instead of all Canadians lying down like submissive cowards as is the nature of many of us and just accepting our govs social engineering because speaking out would be "offensive".  I think it's extremely important to talk about issues we're normally afraid to publicly.  So even if Peterson is wrong on a slew of things at least he's brave enough to publicly start the convo.

Also, why is it only a big deal when someone on the right says something misinformed if not stupid?

Quote
This is what Don Cherry did - a long-retired hockey coach who lectured people about sociology.

How does this differ from all of the leftwing Canadian celebs or celebs in general who lecture people about sociology and say stupid stuff?  Because they're on someone's side of the culture war, or they agree with them?

Millions have tried to destroy one of the few Canadians who isn't a journalist who happens to have a different point of view from the progressive paradigm, and it caused him to be prescribed anti-anxiety meds which are classified as narcotics which he developed a physical dependency to which ruined him when he tried to get off them and almost killed him.  So yay?

Maybe a critical thinker wouldn't treat the man as a God or a devil and consider some of the valuable things he has to say while rejecting the poor arguments.  Imagine that!!
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 23, 2022, 06:32:31 pm
(https://preview.redd.it/ro5pag8fxa911.jpg?auto=webp&s=62d62406a2278cbefbcb9f8c9e62ea2632d3207f)

Lol.   Well maybe he doesn't mainly present that many new ideas only truisms people lived by for hundreds or thousands of years that helped build the most successful civilization in human history and that we've done our best to forget over the last several decades.

Maybe some new ideas we've come up with have been good for people and society while others haven't and we haven't fully figured that out yet?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 24, 2022, 09:25:01 am
I guess he comments because he has a right to?  Like why do you and I and Jimmy Kimmell and Jon Stewart and the ladies on The View and every celeb/user on Twitter comment on social issues?  Because they can.

I guess he was also concerned c-16 or whatever was going to "compel speech". I still have no idea if he was right or wrong on that.   The most important thing is it started a discussion on the bill instead of all Canadians lying down like submissive cowards as is the nature of many of us and just accepting our govs social engineering because speaking out would be "offensive".  I think it's extremely important to talk about issues we're normally afraid to publicly.  So even if Peterson is wrong on a slew of things at least he's brave enough to publicly start the convo.

So spreading misinformation is fine if it gets people talking?

Quote
Also, why is it only a big deal when someone on the right says something misinformed if not stupid?

Lol what? 99 per cent of the data points supporting the notion of "cancel culture" are low stakes anecdotes about obscure left wing people like your oft-cited tale of the school that banned Plato or whatever.

Quote
Millions have tried to destroy one of the few Canadians who isn't a journalist who happens to have a different point of view from the progressive paradigm, and it caused him to be prescribed anti-anxiety meds which are classified as narcotics which he developed a physical dependency to which ruined him when he tried to get off them and almost killed him.  So yay?

Oh no people criticized the millionaire pundit and he was too mentally weak to handle any pushback, get me to my fainting couch.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 24, 2022, 09:25:26 am
Lol.   Well maybe he doesn't mainly present that many new ideas only truisms people lived by for hundreds or thousands of years that helped build the most successful civilization in human history and that we've done our best to forget over the last several decades.

Maybe some new ideas we've come up with have been good for people and society while others haven't and we haven't fully figured that out yet?

Citation required.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is the bedrock of neoliberalism, the dominant ideology of the west for at least the last 40 years.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 25, 2022, 11:29:29 pm
Citation required.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is the bedrock of neoliberalism, the dominant ideology of the west for at least the last 40 years.

Neoliberalism is an economic theory.  Parents don't raise their kids with neoliberalism.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 26, 2022, 10:04:17 am
Neoliberalism is an economic theory.  Parents don't raise their kids with neoliberalism.

It's an ethos.

Again, where is your evidence?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 26, 2022, 12:23:37 pm
LMAO (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1486103450446303234?s=20)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 26, 2022, 01:05:22 pm
How did you decide what to put in the model ?

🤔 

This is like listening to a pretentious first-year student know-it-all who just smoked a doob.

Uh... well we have sunlight and atmosphere... we didn't include hockey scores Jordan
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 26, 2022, 02:30:11 pm
How did you decide what to put in the model ?

🤔 

This is like listening to a pretentious first-year student know-it-all who just smoked a doob.

Uh... well we have sunlight and atmosphere... we didn't include hockey scores Jordan

You’re insulting first year science students.  A first year science student understands the term “climate” and has a general understanding of how science is done.

That had to be the absolute stupidest thing I’ve ever heard him say…. but he’s also speaking to a Joe Rogan audience….  They will lap that BS up. 

“Yeah… climate is everything…. And they can’t study everything….  So climate change is wrong”.  WTF???
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 26, 2022, 03:00:27 pm
You’re insulting first year science students.  A first year science student understands the term “climate” and has a general understanding of how science is done.

That had to be the absolute stupidest thing I’ve ever heard him say…. but he’s also speaking to a Joe Rogan audience….  They will lap that BS up. 

“Yeah… climate is everything…. And they can’t study everything….  So climate change is wrong”.  WTF???

1st year philosophy student talking about science...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 26, 2022, 08:05:07 pm
"There's no such thing as climate" - uhh false.

But the rest of his point is that the variables that determine climate are so vast that no model can possibly reproduce it accurately, and he's right.  At best we have rough guesses with significant margins of error.  We do know the earth is almost certainly going to get warmer as we keep adding GHG, we just don't know how warm.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 26, 2022, 08:12:42 pm
"There's no such thing as climate" - uhh false.

But the rest of his point is that the variables that determine climate are so vast that no model can possibly reproduce it accurately, and he's right.  At best we have rough guesses with significant margins of error.  We do know the earth is almost certainly going to get warmer as we keep adding GHG, we just don't know how warm.
Exactly.  I’ve read estimates that by 2070, the earth could be a degree warmer.  Of course, that assumes technology won’t advance at all over the next 50 years.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 27, 2022, 02:51:38 pm
1. But the rest of his point is that the variables that determine climate are so vast that no model can possibly reproduce it accurately, and he's right. 

2. At best we have rough guesses with significant margins of error. 

3. We do know the earth is almost certainly going to get warmer as we keep adding GHG, we just don't know how warm.

1. No he is wrong.  To a layman like him, or likely you, this would make sense but here's an analogy: you have to predict how long it will take you to drive to the take-out place and bring dinner back for your family.  What variables do you need to know to predict how long it will take ?

I would submit something like: traffic levels for your route at similar hours, and maybe emergency notices... the point being that you can pretty much predict how long it will take given two variables.  With temperature it is two basic things: sunlight levels and CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.

2. You are at this point just repeating what you have heard armchair skeptics say.  Let me ask you (without looking) what the IPCC prediction for temperature change is... the fact is that they have been pretty accurate.

3. I'm glad you said that... very true.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 27, 2022, 07:46:39 pm
Haven't read it yet but ... "word salad of nonsense" is perfect

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jan/27/word-salad-of-nonsense-scientists-denounce-jordan-petersons-comments-on-climate-models
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 27, 2022, 07:49:12 pm
With temperature it is two basic things: sunlight levels and CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.
 

You don't need all the variables.  You can't possibly include them or would they help.

Like... do you need to know how many bees are in the neighbourhood at the moment ?  The cost of wheat ?  Aftershave consumption levels ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 27, 2022, 07:56:46 pm
If the models don’t work, then how come they’ve been so accurate?

(https://climate.nasa.gov/system/internal_resources/details/original/2299_Updated_CMIP3_Model_Comparisons_Hindcast_Forecast_20210122.JPG)

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2943/study-confirms-climate-models-are-getting-future-warming-projections-right/
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 27, 2022, 09:11:59 pm
If the models don’t work, then how come they’ve been so accurate?

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2943/study-confirms-climate-models-are-getting-future-warming-projections-right/

Predicting the climate 15 years into the future by drawing a line that continues in the exact same trajectory as the previous 35 years isn't very impressive.  If they can tell me the temp in 80 years i'll be impressed.  If they can accurately predict what things like GHG released from thawing tundra and melted ice caps will do i'll be impressed.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on January 27, 2022, 10:11:14 pm
1. No he is wrong.  To a layman like him, or likely you, this would make sense but here's an analogy: you have to predict how long it will take you to drive to the take-out place and bring dinner back for your family.  What variables do you need to know to predict how long it will take ?

I would submit something like: traffic levels for your route at similar hours, and maybe emergency notices... the point being that you can pretty much predict how long it will take given two variables.  With temperature it is two basic things: sunlight levels and CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.

How do you know this?

Quote
2. You are at this point just repeating what you have heard armchair skeptics say.  Let me ask you (without looking) what the IPCC prediction for temperature change is... the fact is that they have been pretty accurate.

What is your confidence that model projections for the year 2100 will be accurate?  The models themselves already have not insignificant margins of error built into them because they're aware of their own limitations.  I'm not anti-model, they are what they, educated guesses but aren't gospel.  Just like a poll, even the best ones have a margin for error and can't capture everything.

It's like saying "hey my weather app predicted the weather 2 days in advance, that must means they'll also be accurate in predicting the weather 2 weeks from now".  I'm not saying weather is the same as climate, i'm saying models for things with lots of variables start to break down more and more over time because that is their nature.

I'm not using this in any way to "deny climate change".  In fact it's possible the models could underestimate future warming.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on January 27, 2022, 10:13:34 pm
How do you know this?

What is your confidence that model projections for the year 2100 will be accurate?  The models themselves already have not insignificant margins of error built into them because they're aware of their own limitations.  I'm not anti-model, they are what they, educated guesses but aren't gospel.  Just like a poll, even the best ones have a margin for error and can't capture everything.

It's like saying "hey my weather app predicted the weather 2 days in advance, that must means they'll also be accurate in predicting the weather 2 weeks from now".  I'm not saying weather is the same as climate, i'm saying models for things with lots of variables start to break down more and more over time because that is their nature.

I'm not using this in any way to "deny climate change".  In fact it's possible the models could underestimate future warming.
Only a complete moron would accept modelling predictions for 80 years from now.  These models are based on existing technology and can’t account for any advances over the next 8 decades.  These predictions are completely worthless.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 28, 2022, 06:35:58 am
Predicting the climate 15 years into the future by drawing a line that continues in the exact same trajectory as the previous 35 years isn't very impressive.  If they can tell me the temp in 80 years i'll be impressed.  If they can accurately predict what things like GHG released from thawing tundra and melted ice caps will do i'll be impressed.

That's not what is happening - it is/was an upwards curve.

If you can think back in time when math got difficult for you and imagine studying it for about 6 more years with it getting harder and harder you can start to imagine how much you are out of line here.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 28, 2022, 06:45:57 am
1. How do you know this?

2. What is your confidence that model projections for the year 2100 will be accurate?  The models themselves already have not insignificant margins of error built into them because they're aware of their own limitations. 

3. I'm not anti-model, they are what they, educated guesses but aren't gospel.  Just like a poll, even the best ones have a margin for error and can't capture everything.

4. It's like saying "hey my weather app predicted the weather 2 days in advance, that must means they'll also be accurate in predicting the weather 2 weeks from now".  I'm not saying weather is the same as climate, i'm saying models for things with lots of variables start to break down more and more over time because that is their nature.

5. I'm not using this in any way to "deny climate change".  In fact it's possible the models could underestimate future warming.

1. I could say that I had a minor-equivalent in stats with my mathematics degree, but that wouldn't matter to people who watch the clown Peterson and the stand-up comic Joe Rogan discuss climate change as though they understand it.

I would say that in my studies I learned to know when I have a grasp of something, when I know it well and when I have no idea.  When I have no idea, I look to learn.  Around the time of Climategate I started to wonder if there was something going on with Climate Science.  I found a series of videos by a science journalist Peter Hadfield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KLGqDSAjo&list=PL82yk73N8eoX-Xobr_TfHsWPfAIyI7VAP

Unlike people like Peterson, he always explains complicated theories and cites the body of science that refers to them.  He eschews political takes and even economics mostly. 

So - I needed to understand, so I learned.  I used the videos to link to the actual research which I was able to understand with my statistics background but I didn't need to.  I recommend you watch the entire series to get a sense of how much bullshitting is happening out there.

2. Where are you getting this assertion, which you have now repeated ?  And didn't you already acknowledge that the predictions are accurate and say that you weren't impressed ?  Why are you being stubborn on this ? 

3. The amount of work that goes into these models, by an army of educated brilliant people is a great human achievement in the field of science.  You, Peterson and Rogan want to make it sound like child's play and I am at a loss as to why.

4. I already explained that there are really TWO significant factors in climate prediction: solar radiation and atmosphere.  There are other variables but they are not nearly as significant.  Do you understand this ?

5. But they are actually pretty accurate and for our purposes - if they are off by a few % it won't matter if the trend is upwards
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on January 28, 2022, 06:49:05 am
Only a complete moron would accept modelling predictions for 80 years from now.  These models are based on existing technology and can’t account for any advances over the next 8 decades.  These predictions are completely worthless.

Well you can say they're based on 'technology' if you include practices and methodologies as 'technology'.  Some of the early research was done with the 'technology' of a pencil and paper, and the methodology known as linear regression.

But it doesn't matter, if you notice that the number of people who were saying "there's no warming" ten years ago has dribbled down to nothing.  Go back and look at those arguments... what was wrong ?  It was that they were saying there were conspiracies and that the data was incorrect and that the methods were unverified.

If we continue to discuss what is happening with climate, I would think that those three arguments at least are out of consideration.

It seems to me we're finally at the point of discussing economic impacts.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 28, 2022, 01:03:27 pm
Predicting the climate 15 years into the future by drawing a line that continues in the exact same trajectory as the previous 35 years isn't very impressive. If they can tell me the temp in 80 years i'll be impressed. If they can accurately predict what things like GHG released from thawing tundra and melted ice caps will do i'll be impressed.

I mean, climate scientists have been roasting Benzo Boy for his claims all week, but what would they know about climate modelling that an ex-psychologist wouldn't?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on January 28, 2022, 01:07:08 pm
Only a complete moron would accept modelling predictions for 80 years from now.  These models are based on existing technology and can’t account for any advances over the next 8 decades.  These predictions are completely worthless.

Every day I log into this site and every day I see you saying something more deeply and catastrophically stupid than you said the day before. The idea that climate modelling should account for as yet non-existent technological advances (why not assume we get visited by space aliens who eat atmospheric CO2 while we're at it?) to have any value is the winner for today.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 28, 2022, 02:43:07 pm
Every day I log into this site and every day I see you saying something more deeply and catastrophically stupid than you said the day before. The idea that climate modelling should account for as yet non-existent technological advances (why not assume we get visited by space aliens who eat atmospheric CO2 while we're at it?) to have any value is the winner for today.

Stupidity or trolling would explain it. 

Then there’s people like @Nipples Von Graham who believe what Petersen says over what the climate scientists at NASA are saying in their review of climate models. 

It’s astronomically stupid to believe a crackpot claiming things because of how his politics line up over those who are actually researching the issue using science.  It’s actually hard for me to wrap my head around someone who could be that ignorant.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on February 03, 2022, 04:00:51 pm
New Addams family reboot looks terrible.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FKeWaagWUAAsgRg?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 03, 2022, 04:16:23 pm
New Addams family reboot looks terrible.



When are these two climate scientists going to publish their scientific findings debunking climate change?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on February 03, 2022, 04:19:02 pm
Listening to some other clips from JP on that show...

Talking about the Bible ...

U of T should be embarrassed they had him, he is a failure as an academic

And I am still annoyed that we were on the crest of having the return of the public intellectual... and it turned out to be this fried egg sandwich...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on February 03, 2022, 04:36:01 pm
When are these two climate scientists going to publish their scientific findings debunking climate change?

Right after they finish their 7:30 ventriloquism set at the Ha Ha Hut in Topkea.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on February 03, 2022, 05:28:27 pm
Jordan and Black Dog having a discussion.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/465/933/d93.png)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on February 03, 2022, 05:31:37 pm
Listening to some other clips from JP on that show...

Talking about the Bible ...

U of T should be embarrassed they had him, he is a failure as an academic

And I am still annoyed that we were on the crest of having the return of the public intellectual... and it turned out to be this fried egg sandwich...
He’s a clinical psychologist.  What does his views on the bible or climate change have anything to do with his ability in his profession?  Answer: nothing.

Pro tip to you Peterson fanatics.  If you don’t like him, don’t listen to him.  Try that, you might like it.  I do it with people like Don Lemon every night.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 03, 2022, 05:41:58 pm
Pro tip to you Peterson fanatics.  If you don’t like him, don’t listen to him.  Try that, you might like it.  I do it with people like Don Lemon every night.
Pro tip: Look up the word "fanatic."
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on February 03, 2022, 05:43:50 pm
He’s a clinical psychologist.  What does his views on the bible or climate change have anything to do with his ability in his profession?  Answer: nothing.

No he's not. He doesn't practice, doesn't teach, doesn't research. He's Dr Phil for incels.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on February 03, 2022, 05:54:56 pm
No he's not. He doesn't practice, doesn't teach, doesn't research. He's Dr Phil for incels.
He doesn’t practice now.  But degrees don’t expire.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on February 03, 2022, 05:55:31 pm
Pro tip: Look up the word "fanatic."
I don’t know what else to call you people that are so obsessed with him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 03, 2022, 06:33:30 pm
I don’t know what else to call you people that are so obsessed with him.
English is hard. You should look up "obsessed" now.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 03, 2022, 06:35:21 pm
He doesn’t practice now.  But degrees don’t expire.
Then you should have said he has a clinical psychology degree. You learn so much on the Internet but it never seems to stick
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on February 03, 2022, 06:58:05 pm
Then you should have said he has a clinical psychology degree. You learn so much on the Internet but it never seems to stick
Nope.  He’s still a clinical psychologist.  He’s just not practicing right now.  Your obsession is bordering on unhealthy now.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 03, 2022, 07:13:24 pm
Nope.  He’s still a clinical psychologist.  He’s just not practicing right now.  Your obsession is bordering on unhealthy now.
To be honest, I don't even know who he is. Your weakness at debating is as hilarious as ever though. Bordering on desperate.   
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on February 23, 2022, 09:41:29 am
Is there a dumber human being with a PhD anywhere?

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1496134525017104390?s=20&t=nn6aLQNlO9wy-i7SZLTqIw
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on February 23, 2022, 10:25:06 am
Is there a dumber human being with a PhD anywhere?

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1496134525017104390?s=20&t=nn6aLQNlO9wy-i7SZLTqIw

Depending on what PhD stands for I guess...

I knew a dumb person with a poodle-haired Daschund...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 12, 2022, 05:40:45 pm
Dumbass still doesn't know how to stay in his lane (writing facile self help books for losers).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNbhHyNVEAEkVfL?format=png&name=small)

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 12, 2022, 06:10:12 pm
Dumbass still doesn't know how to stay in his lane (writing facile self help books for losers).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNbhHyNVEAEkVfL?format=png&name=small)
He’s right.

https://youtu.be/rfyOihhAD4A
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 12, 2022, 10:14:05 pm
(https://www.familyeducation.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/2017-06/how-to-discipline-your-toddler%20Featured%20image.jpg?itok=JQh05h3s)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 13, 2022, 08:25:42 am
He's right, but the paper's author isn't...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 13, 2022, 12:09:48 pm
He’s right.

https://youtu.be/rfyOihhAD4A

lmao
sure a clical psychologist and retired nurse are right but the guy who wrote the paper is wrong. Do you ever stop and think before you write?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 13, 2022, 12:10:10 pm
(https://www.familyeducation.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/2017-06/how-to-discipline-your-toddler%20Featured%20image.jpg?itok=JQh05h3s)

Why the photo of the typical Jordan Peterson fan?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 14, 2022, 12:20:12 pm
lmao
sure a clical psychologist and retired nurse are right but the guy who wrote the paper is wrong. Do you ever stop and think before you write?
Yes, he's complaining about the abstract being focused on, then goes on to cite weak data.  Why did it get published then?  Does he usually publish studies that he considers the data being weak!  LOL.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 14, 2022, 12:32:17 pm
Yes, he's complaining about the abstract being focused on, then goes on to cite weak data.  Why did it get published then?  Does he usually publish studies that he considers the data being weak! LOL.

I guess you didn't see the part where they didn't submit the manuscript for publication. As for the "weak data" thing, you clearly don't understand how the scientific method works.

Just another own goal by the dumbest man alive (you).
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 14, 2022, 02:05:24 pm
Let's argue about people that aren't so easy to argue about.

Sam Harris is the Jordan Peterson replacement we need.

Discuss.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 14, 2022, 02:13:35 pm
Let's argue about people that aren't so easy to argue about.

Sam Harris is the Jordan Peterson replacement we need.

Discuss.
Goof point.  I actually like Sam Harris a lot.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 14, 2022, 02:34:43 pm
Let's argue about people that aren't so easy to argue about.

Sam Harris is the Jordan Peterson replacement we need.

Discuss.

Sam Harris another race "science" guy isn't he?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 14, 2022, 02:56:37 pm
Sam Harris another race "science" guy isn't he?
What the hell does race science guy mean?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 14, 2022, 03:03:45 pm
What the hell does race science guy mean?

I'd explain it but you don't understand anything that doesn't come in Facebook meme form so why waste my time?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 14, 2022, 03:21:59 pm
I'd explain it but you don't understand anything that doesn't come in Facebook meme form so why waste my time?
Dude, nobody knows what the hell you mean.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 14, 2022, 03:56:42 pm
(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fexclaim.ca%2Fimages%2Fjp-stairs.jpg&hash=a70a5a40aea8ec843e5e8ef01f2091bc4c8f7844)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 14, 2022, 04:00:15 pm
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/384/613/856.jpg_large)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 14, 2022, 05:14:20 pm
Goof point.  I actually like Sam Harris a lot.

I am, in fact, a goof.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 14, 2022, 05:32:08 pm
I enjoyed Sam Harris's emotional version of Over the Rainbow on Star Search.

https://youtu.be/AZyjSuOrRBw
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 15, 2022, 02:57:30 pm
Nice pipes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(singer)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 15, 2022, 03:00:15 pm
Sam Harris another race "science" guy isn't he?

I don't think so.  He's down on the culture of fundamentalist religion but generally a rationalist.

He has been in trouble for hosting problematic people to state their case on his show but I don't think he ascribes to the usual 'race baiting' stuff.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 15, 2022, 03:25:39 pm
I don't think so.  He's down on the culture of fundamentalist religion but generally a rationalist.

He has been in trouble for hosting problematic people to state their case on his show but I don't think he ascribes to the usual 'race baiting' stuff.

Eh, he's a fan of Charles Murray and thinks that differences in intelligence are down to racial/genetic differences despite the lack of scientific consensus around that conclusion.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 15, 2022, 03:38:10 pm
Eh, he's a fan of Charles Murray and thinks that differences in intelligence are down to racial/genetic differences despite the lack of scientific consensus around that conclusion.
Complete nonsense.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Black Dog just needs to admit that he doesn’t know a thing about Sam Harris.  And trying to characterize Harris based on two hours of a podcast, when he’s done thousands of hours of podcasts is absurd.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 15, 2022, 04:02:09 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdvPm0SVLy8

Here is his explanation... not really an excuse for 'exorcism' of the topic.    'Freedom of Speech' stuff.

I am not interested in the topic - the white right has a large percentage of the talking out there including him.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 15, 2022, 04:51:48 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdvPm0SVLy8

Here is his explanation... not really an excuse for 'exorcism' of the topic.    'Freedom of Speech' stuff.

I am not interested in the topic - the white right has a large percentage of the talking out there including him.
People shouldn’t have to apologize for talking to people they disagree with.  It’s just part of the bigger phenomenon known as cancel culture.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 15, 2022, 05:28:15 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdvPm0SVLy8

Here is his explanation... not really an excuse for 'exorcism' of the topic. 'Freedom of Speech' stuff.

I am not interested in the topic - the white right has a large percentage of the talking out there including him.

lol, "I'm not really interested in the topic of racial differences in IQ which is why I had one of the leading proponents of scientific racism on my podcast."

Ezra Klein (a milquetoast liberal of whom I am no fan) absolutely demolished (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/27/15695060/sam-harris-charles-murray-race-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve) both these clowns.

I also can't get over the part where he's surprised that Murray was not a "golem," earnestly believes in his (Murray's) good intentions and strength of scholarship, which betrays both a child-like belief in monsters and a credulity towards the expertise a man who is not an expert in genetics or IQ, but a political scientist whose dabbling in those other fields has been resoundingly rejected by actual people within them.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 15, 2022, 05:30:15 pm
Complete nonsense.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  Black Dog just needs to admit that he doesn’t know a thing about Sam Harris.  And trying to characterize Harris based on two hours of a podcast, when he’s done thousands of hours of podcasts is absurd.

That's not true: I know one thing about Sam Harris: he's a fan of Charles Murray and thinks that differences in intelligence are down to racial/genetic differences despite the lack of scientific consensus around that conclusion.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 15, 2022, 09:27:10 pm
(https://highexistence.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/jordan-peterson-lobster-600x315.jpg)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 16, 2022, 06:47:20 am
Is he a fan?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 09:17:54 am
Is he a fan?

Isn't he?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 09:24:13 am
People shouldn’t have to apologize for talking to people they disagree with.  It’s just part of the bigger phenomenon known as cancel culture.

Well there's no evidence Harris disagrees with Murray in this particular case. But to the larger point, I have no issue with someone talking to someone they disagree with with the express purpose of refuting their views, but platforming racists and conspiracy cranks, for example, and then just nodding along when they go off is reprehensible.

IMO, there's really nothing to be gained from talking to people with whom you disagree on fundamental questions.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 16, 2022, 10:22:13 am
Isn't he?

Not from what I have read.  He was moved to host him out of an interest in free speech.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 10:26:49 am
Not from what I have read.  He was moved to host him out of an interest in free speech.

But Harris agrees with him (or at least takes Murray's work at face value) and thinks he's a good scholar and person. Oh and he's called Murray "the most unfairly maligned person in my lifetime."

Let's put that aside, though, because i think the "free speech" angle here is a bunch of rot. Murray faced a ton of criticism and has been subject to deplatforming from a few speaking events IIRC. But he also publishes books that get lots of press (no doubt the controversy helps there), gets regular op-ed space in leading publications, and enjoys a well-paid and prominent sinecure at one of the biggest conservative think tanks in America. There's no way this guy has been "cancelled" or "silenced" or had his free speech rights infringed upon in any meaningful way. If Harris had him on in the interests of free speech, then his definition of free speech is "people should be able to say what they want without criticism or consequences," which is absurd.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 16, 2022, 11:11:12 am
lol, "I'm not really interested in the topic of racial differences in IQ which is why I had one of the leading proponents of scientific racism on my podcast."

Ezra Klein (a milquetoast liberal of whom I am no fan) absolutely demolished (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/27/15695060/sam-harris-charles-murray-race-iq-forbidden-knowledge-podcast-bell-curve) both these clowns.

I also can't get over the part where he's surprised that Murray was not a "golem," earnestly believes in his (Murray's) good intentions and strength of scholarship, which betrays both a child-like belief in monsters and a credulity towards the expertise a man who is not an expert in genetics or IQ, but a political scientist whose dabbling in those other fields has been resoundingly rejected by actual people within them.

I think you’re missing the point of why Harris talks about these topics.  It’s not because he’s a “fan”, or that he agrees with any of it.  It’s because he sees that these topics are taboo…. Not allowed to be discussed even within academic circles….

Your contention that Harris is a “fan” of these ideas shows a complete misunderstanding, or a deliberate misrepresentation, of Harris’ discussions with people like this.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 11:27:40 am
I think you’re missing the point of why Harris talks about these topics. It’s not because he’s a “fan”, or that he agrees with any of it.  It’s because he sees that these topics are taboo…. Not allowed to be discussed even within academic circles….


Well that's bullshit too.

Quote
Your contention that Harris is a “fan” of these ideas shows a complete misunderstanding, or a deliberate misrepresentation, of Harris’ discussions with people like this.

I've addressed this is posts subsequent to the one you quoted here. I think the distinction between "enthusiastic proponent" of a given person/position and someone who simply offers a given person/position a platform without any pushback is one of degrees not kind.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 16, 2022, 11:31:59 am
Well that's bullshit too.

I've addressed this is posts subsequent to the one you quoted here. I think the distinction between "enthusiastic proponent" of a given person/position and someone who simply offers a given person/position a platform is one of degrees not kind.
It’s not bullshit.  You’re arguments are though.  It’s important to have discussions on all kinds of topics with all kinds of people.  It doesn’t mean that one supports those people and their opinions.  Most grown ups can understand that.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 11:36:13 am
It’s not bullshit. 

Yes it is, fucko. The idea that genetic differences in IQ is taboo would be news to people in that field.

Quote
You’re arguments are though.  It’s important to have discussions on all kinds of topics with all kinds of people.  It doesn’t mean that one supports those people and their opinions.  Most grown ups can understand that.

This is such a broad statement as to be totally useless. Is it important to have discussions with Holocaust deniers? Flat earthers? Idiots like you? I say no.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 16, 2022, 07:51:53 pm
IMO, there's really nothing to be gained from talking to people with whom you disagree on fundamental questions.

Well each person can strengthen their own arguments or have holes poked in it, and if there's an audience they can possibly learn something too.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2022, 07:57:16 pm
Well each person can strengthen their own arguments or have holes poked in it, and if there's an audience they can possibly learn something too.

This assumes a lot of things, like that both parties are acting in good faith and actually receptive to having their minds changed. IRL, that's almost never the case.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 16, 2022, 08:05:17 pm
I've seen no evidence that the holocaust occurred differently than we popularly know it, or that race and IQ are related in any way, but i also don't see why it can't be talked about or studied if there's evidence.

Racists controlling false narratives isn't really different than the PC police controlling false narratives.  Either way people get brainwashed with BS.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Tom Brady Shady on March 16, 2022, 08:14:56 pm
This assumes a lot of things, like that both parties are acting in good faith and actually receptive to having their minds changed. IRL, that's almost never the case.
That’s incorrect.  A discussion can still be worth while even if one or both parties aren’t receptive to having their mind changed.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 10:31:02 am
lol (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1508579434441236482?s=20&t=g5aMikBffJMwRxEYojICPQ) This guy is so goddamn funny, he talks like a bad guy from a Metal Gear game.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 11:48:10 am
WTH is wrong with him ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 29, 2022, 11:50:16 am
WTH is wrong with him ?

Maybe he has the AIDS.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 11:52:52 am
Maybe he has the AIDS.

Looks gaunt and disheveled and ... the crying ?  Existential issues.

I feel like the world is getting people caught in its gears unnecessarily.  He was an intellectual, at one point, with a point of view that was debatable and there was actually a debate.  He chose to join the Podcast alt right travelling roadshow, presumably for the money, and now is basically a clownish goon who may be dying
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 12:04:41 pm
Maybe he has the AIDS.

Or maybe it's the all-meat diet. He probably hasn't taken a dump in forever.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 29, 2022, 03:14:21 pm
Or maybe it's the all-meat diet. He probably hasn't taken a dump in forever.

Specifically an all-lobster diet actually (for the serotonin).  And actually I saw him in the bathroom taking a dump in Red Lobster.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 29, 2022, 03:17:43 pm
Looks gaunt and disheveled and ... the crying ?  Existential issues.

I feel like the world is getting people caught in its gears unnecessarily.  He was an intellectual, at one point, with a point of view that was debatable and there was actually a debate.  He chose to join the Podcast alt right travelling roadshow, presumably for the money,

Well maybe its nice to sometimes go on shows where you can have a discussion without the host constantly attacking you because they belong to the alt-left?

Quote
and now is basically a clownish goon who may be dying

Probably dying of AIDS.  Let's be very clear on this.  PRECISE.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on March 29, 2022, 03:44:48 pm
And actually I saw him in the bathroom taking a dump in Red Lobster.

How could you tell ?

[this is an unfinished Red Lobster joke]
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on March 29, 2022, 03:51:23 pm
How could you tell ?

[this is an unfinished Red Lobster joke]

I went into the bathroom stall after he was done.  He didn't flush and there were claws everywhere.

[Red Lobster joke finished?  We are a great lobster-comedy team]
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 01:14:45 pm
Get yourself someone who loves you as much as Jordan Peterson loves maintaining the status quo:

"I'm not sure (being an activist) is a good thing."
 (https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1513556149433520132)

Also: boy does he look like hell.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 01:25:41 pm
Get yourself someone who loves you as much as Jordan Peterson loves maintaining the status quo:

"I'm not sure (being an activist) is a good thing."
 (https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1513556149433520132)

Also: boy does he look like hell.

Something up with him for sure.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 01:27:21 pm
Something up with him for sure.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPmilHyX0A0oVjm?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 01:42:49 pm
There's something that has been sucked out of the core of American life for these guys - and probably women too - to be so empty.

Maybe with women they're raised to find meaning in others' happiness or something, no idea.  But these people are generally bereft of meaning and means to lead a good life.

As much as I find them horrible, I do feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 01:48:55 pm
There's something that has been sucked out of the core of American life for these guys - and probably women too - to be so empty.

Maybe with women they're raised to find meaning in others' happiness or something, no idea.  But these people are generally bereft of meaning and means to lead a good life.

As much as I find them horrible, I do feel sorry for them.

A lot of reactionaries like Peterson will tell you that there's a crisis of masculinity caused by feminism, acceptance of LGBTQ individuals and rejection of traditional masculinity's more toxic elements and they aren't necessarily wrong, it's just that their solutions are to try and turn back the clock, roll back progress of those previously marginalized groups and embrace the toxic traits, which is both quixotic and destructive.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 02:01:06 pm
1. A lot of reactionaries like Peterson will tell you that there's a crisis of masculinity caused by feminism, acceptance of LGBTQ individuals and rejection of traditional masculinity's more toxic elements

2. and they aren't necessarily wrong, it's just that their solutions are to try and turn back the clock, roll back progress of those previously marginalized groups and embrace the toxic traits, which is both quixotic and destructive.

1. "Masculinity" as it appears in our culture is not controlled by anyone.  If they are bemoaning the loss of the Marlboro Man, then they should think about where an image like that comes from.  They are complaining that a false image, a narrative, a fiction, is passing into history.

2. Social roles are not understood well by anyone, I would say, with the exception of artists, writers and those who can cast us in the mirror. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on April 11, 2022, 02:29:22 pm
A lot of reactionaries like Peterson will tell you that there's a crisis of masculinity caused by feminism, acceptance of LGBTQ individuals and rejection of traditional masculinity's more toxic elements and they aren't necessarily wrong, it's just that their solutions are to try and turn back the clock, roll back progress of those previously marginalized groups and embrace the toxic traits, which is both quixotic and destructive.

Those are not the solutions Peterson proposes.  In a society of young men raised by single moms, female teachers, and other otherwise kind people who often coddle them, his solution is for people to take on responsibility, become more self-sufficient.

https://youtu.be/bBSvlTYfUrs
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 02:46:11 pm
Those are not the solutions Peterson proposes.  In a society of young men raised by single moms, female teachers, and other otherwise kind people who often coddle them, his solution is for people to take on responsibility, become more self-sufficient.

Which is a a fundamentally conservative position when you couple it with his rejection of the idea of social change as a positive force.

I'm not sure how you can look at the guy's body of work and public statements and not detect the obvious pining for the Way Things Used To Be.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on April 11, 2022, 02:55:52 pm
Which is a a fundamentally conservative position when you couple it with his rejection of the idea of social change as a positive force.

I'm not sure how you can look at the guy's body of work and public statements and not detect the obvious pining for the Way Things Used To Be.

What if he thinks some people want to "progress" society in undesirable ways, which is conservative not necessarily reactionary.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 02:56:42 pm
Well, I have always felt that morality and self-help was something we need en masse.

But the thesis of the Ed Norton/Brad Pitt double-guy are supposed to be the ravings of a madman.  And isn't the writer of the movie trans ?

Peterson is an academic oddity, to say the least, to suggest such things without clear reasons.

My suspected reason for all of this is the death of God, but you won't find me going on YouTube to say that without more than an opinion.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 02:59:44 pm
What if he thinks some people want to "progress" society in undesirable ways, which is conservative not necessarily reactionary.

Well, yes, he does. 

If he isn't a reactionary, he sure gets them excited.  Maybe that's because he blames people who don't follow tradition as being the source of the problem.

It's an oddity.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 03:07:59 pm
What if he thinks some people want to "progress" society in undesirable ways, which is conservative not necessarily reactionary.

Thinking that women, gays, trans people, "Marxists" etc are trying to destroy western civilization by overturning the natural hierarchy is textbook reactionary thought.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on April 11, 2022, 03:10:35 pm
1. "Marxists" etc are trying to destroy western civilization by overturning the natural hierarchy is textbook reactionary thought.

1. I'm still not over this.  The real Marxists think JP is hilarious.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on April 11, 2022, 04:41:01 pm
Thinking that women, gays, trans people, "Marxists" etc are trying to destroy western civilization by overturning the natural hierarchy is textbook reactionary thought.

Well, whatever label we give him or anyone else is irrelevant, what matters is the validity of each argument he puts forward.  In terms of the argument of activism being "bad", that seems like a silly argument.  It would entirely depend on what an activist is trying to achieve.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on April 11, 2022, 05:20:37 pm
Well, whatever label we give him or anyone else is irrelevant, what matters is the validity of each argument he puts forward. In terms of the argument of activism being "bad", that seems like a silly argument. It would entirely depend on what an activist is trying to achieve.

It's an entirely consistent argument for JP. Activism means change and change is bad because the status quo is the natural order.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 05, 2022, 04:31:06 pm
Benzos simply demolished our man's ability to keep his s*t together (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1522081691518398465?s=20&t=5WNHiTEPauLz7NxOfUxYPQ). Same energy as when my partner was pregnant and hormonal and she'd start crying at dog food commercials.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on May 05, 2022, 04:42:03 pm
 :-*
Benzos simply demolished our man's ability to keep his s*t together (https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1522081691518398465?s=20&t=5WNHiTEPauLz7NxOfUxYPQ). Same energy as when my partner was pregnant and hormonal and she'd start crying at dog food commercials.

Peterson is a huge a-hole.  I mean imagine being a clinical psychologist and being moved to tears by all the clients and followers around the world coming to you for help about being hopeless, depressed, suicidal etc.

Imagine the burden of being one of the only people in the English speaking world trying to lift society out of its nihilism . If it were me I'd probably get super anxious trying to help all the souls pouring their despair out to me while half the population is aggressively trying to destroy me and then need to go on prescription benzos to deal. What a d-bag.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 05, 2022, 04:46:38 pm
Peterson is a huge a-hole.  I mean imagine being a clinical psychologist and being moved to tears by all the clients and followers around the world coming to you for help about being hopeless, depressed, suicidal etc.

Imagine the burden of being one of the only people in the English speaking world trying to lift society out of its nihilism . If it were me I'd probably get super anxious trying to help all the souls pouring their despair out to me while half the population is aggressively trying to destroy me and then need to go on prescription benzos to deal. What a d-bag.

He wet.

Anyway if I made as much bank as JP has doing whatever it is he does and suddenly found the gig was making me anxious and upset, I would simply stop doing it and go sit on a beach or whatever.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on May 05, 2022, 08:05:31 pm
He wet.

Anyway if I made as much bank as JP has doing whatever it is he does and suddenly found the gig was making me anxious and upset, I would simply stop doing it and go sit on a beach or whatever.

Yeah, but easier said than done.  My guess is when you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to further your career to extraordinary heights you don't want to let the opportunity pass, especially if as a clinical psychologist his nature is to want to help people and there's an opportunity to spread advice you know will do that based on your private practice.

You guys shaming the man for mental illness is a bit much, to say the least.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 05, 2022, 08:34:26 pm
I have move past criticizing his flawed arguments.

It doesn't matter.

People who like him either like his self-help regimen (I don't) the fact that he is trying to help people (shrug) or the fact that he is a moralist trying to find meaning in the world (which I would admire if he actually empathized and tried to build bridges instead of making a fool of himself)

But that too doesn't matter.  He persists.  And he seems to be listing, or even sinking.

That doesn't bring me joy and I just find it odd and sad at this point.  If we're saying he's mentally ill now, then ok he's not worth picking at I agree.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 05, 2022, 09:51:03 pm
I have move past criticizing his flawed arguments.

It doesn't matter.

People who like him either like his self-help regimen (I don't) the fact that he is trying to help people (shrug) or the fact that he is a moralist trying to find meaning in the world (which I would admire if he actually empathized and tried to build bridges instead of making a fool of himself)

But that too doesn't matter.  He persists.  And he seems to be listing, or even sinking.

That doesn't bring me joy and I just find it odd and sad at this point.  If we're saying he's mentally ill now, then ok he's not worth picking at I agree.

I think he’s a narcissist with mental illness selling snake oil. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 06, 2022, 04:59:22 am
I think he’s a narcissist with mental illness selling snake oil.

Ok.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 06, 2022, 09:56:27 am
Yeah, but easier said than done.  My guess is when you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to further your career to extraordinary heights you don't want to let the opportunity pass, especially if as a clinical psychologist his nature is to want to help people and there's an opportunity to spread advice you know will do that based on your private practice.

Or maybe he just has a massive ego and a Messiah complex who is addicted to attention and fame.

Quote
You guys shaming the man for mental illness is a bit much, to say the least.

If he's actually mentally ill, that's all the more reason to get out of the spotlight. He obviously doesn't need the money.

But again it's not about shaming, it's calling out the hypocrisy of a guy who made it big telling everyone to get their own house in order before criticizing the world making bag telling other people how to live when he can't even keep his own sh*t together. Medice, cura te ipsum.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 06, 2022, 09:57:45 am
I have move past criticizing his flawed arguments.

It doesn't matter.

People who like him either like his self-help regimen (I don't) the fact that he is trying to help people (shrug) or the fact that he is a moralist trying to find meaning in the world (which I would admire if he actually empathized and tried to build bridges instead of making a fool of himself)

But that too doesn't matter.  He persists.  And he seems to be listing, or even sinking.

That doesn't bring me joy and I just find it odd and sad at this point.  If we're saying he's mentally ill now, then ok he's not worth picking at I agree.

IDK there's something pretty funny about a guy who blusters so much about strength and masculinity and threatens to slap his critics constantly devolving into a big blubbering puddle every time he speaks in public.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 06, 2022, 10:26:04 am
  a big blubbering puddle every time he speaks in public.

I think he may be dying.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 06, 2022, 02:24:38 pm
I think he may be dying.

LOL

Really?  I think it’s more likely that’s what he wants you to think…. For attention. 

But if he is dying, it’s probably cuz he’s back on his all-meat diet again.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 06, 2022, 03:28:17 pm
i want to talk about this clip some more because I was so focused on his blubbering that I didn't address what he was actually saying in it. Now I watched it a couple of times and....I have no idea wtf he's on about. Can someone explain what this wiener is trying to say here?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 06, 2022, 03:34:49 pm
i want to talk about this clip some more because I was so focused on his blubbering that I didn't address what he was actually saying in it. Now I watched it a couple of times and....I have no idea wtf he's on about. Can someone explain what this wiener is trying to say here?

I think the best before date on this topic is today actually.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 16, 2022, 05:22:01 pm
I think the best before date on this topic is today actually.

Tell him to stop giving us new material then.

Jordan Peterson Dragged for 'Sports Illustrated' Swimsuit Issue Insult (https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-peterson-dragged-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-issue-insult-1707138)

Quote
The Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue 2022 is out, but author Jordan Peterson is upset at the cover featuring singer and plus-size model Yumi Nu, and is being dragged online for it.

Sharing the tweet of Nu's cover, Peterson wrote, "Sorry. Not beautiful. And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that."

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 16, 2022, 06:39:35 pm
Tell him to stop giving us new material then.


I would appreciate a TL;DR version as I don't want to see his haggard dying face anymore.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on May 16, 2022, 07:42:55 pm
I would appreciate a TL;DR version as I don't want to see his haggard dying face anymore.

He's going after chubby models and saying they aren't beautiful.

For MH, this time it's personal.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 16, 2022, 08:03:02 pm
He's going after chubby models and saying they aren't beautiful.

For MH, this time it's personal.

Ha ha ... well I am dying to hear where this came from.

He's really finding new ways to be wrong.

Anyway, I spent 15 minutes looking for a good picture to put up as a counter argument then decided ... nah
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2022, 10:29:52 am
Ha ha ... well I am dying to hear where this came from.

He's really finding new ways to be wrong.

Anyway, I spent 15 minutes looking for a good picture to put up as a counter argument then decided ... nah

Sport Illustrated put plus-sized (read: normal-looking) model Yumi Nu on the cover and he lost his mind and got dragged so hard he actually quit Twitter (though his account is still active).
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 17, 2022, 10:34:37 am
Wait.

He doesn't like fat chicks, so he storms off in a huff and quits Twitter b/c he wants the rest of us to have to look at skinny chicks instead of the kind we like ?

This is what a grown man does ?

Sounds like cancel culture with pouting.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2022, 10:47:08 am
Wait.

He doesn't like fat chicks, so he storms off in a huff and quits Twitter b/c he wants the rest of us to have to look at skinny chicks instead of the kind we like ?

This is what a grown man does ?

Sounds like cancel culture with pouting.

This  (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0hQpL-WoAAtUwM.jpg)is more his type I guess.

(backstory here (https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/mikhaila-peterson-bikini-pic-meat-diet/))
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: waldo on May 17, 2022, 11:08:22 am
Ha ha ... well I am dying to hear where this came from.

(https://i.imgur.com/v3jfpDh.gif)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2022, 12:18:40 pm
The "authoritarian tolerance" line is amazing, like the government is waterboarding you if you don't like thicc girls.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 17, 2022, 01:10:46 pm
The "authoritarian tolerance" line is amazing, like the government is waterboarding you if you don't like thicc girls.

Sounds great to me.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 17, 2022, 01:11:08 pm
Sorry - to be clear, I meant looking at thicc girls while sitting in a hot tub...
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Boges on May 17, 2022, 02:27:44 pm
https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/1526550248730120195
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 17, 2022, 02:41:59 pm
So he insults som3one about their looks…. Gets called out on it….  And complains about how toxic Twitter  is.   

LOL

Well Petersen, if you didn’t say vile things in the first place….
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Boges on May 17, 2022, 02:46:28 pm
So he insults som3one about their looks…. Gets called out on it….  And complains about how toxic Twitter  is.   

LOL

Well Petersen, if you didn’t say vile things in the first place….

TBF That's par for the course with the internet and this Cancel Culture.

People don't generally want negative consequences for their Free Speech.

The "Promoting Obesity" Narrative is quite lively on the internet. Very toxic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on May 17, 2022, 02:47:34 pm
That girl looks pretty healthy to me.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2022, 04:09:46 pm
That girl looks pretty healthy to me.

This was Jeep's reply

Quote
It's a conscious progressive attempt to manipulate & retool the notion of beauty, reliant on the idiot philosophy that such preferences are learned & properly changed by those who know better (see https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016363839890011X#:~:text=Several%20previous%20experiments%20have%20found,is%20present%20soon%20after%20birth)(https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000557/) but don't let the facts stop you.

One of the studies here looks at whether people deemed attractive had more kids later on (without mentioning any particular standard of "attractive") and the other looked at how newborn babies reacted to people's faces, neither of which has **** all to with "the notion of beauty". What a clown.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 17, 2022, 05:00:58 pm
Jordan Peterson when "Baby Got Back" comes on the radio:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FS6ZUoLXsAEGZPy?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on May 17, 2022, 11:03:25 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/v3jfpDh.gif)

I'd jerk off to this.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 17, 2022, 11:16:30 pm
I'd jerk off to this.

You jerk off to this:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FS6ZUoLXsAEGZPy?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: kimmy on May 17, 2022, 11:22:50 pm
Anybody with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together knows that Sports Illustrated isn't featuring this model to "celebrate a wider understanding of female beauty" or whatever they're branding this as.

It's a fig leaf. Every year they put forth the usual assortment of interchangeable barely dressed, nearly anorexic women. But in recent years in acknowledgment of the inevitable criticisms, they add in a few models that don't fit the mold. A plus-sized model like Ashley Graham or this year's Yumi Nu, or a transgender model who looks just like the usual near-anorexic cisgender women, or Elon Musk's 75 year old super-model mom this year.

They're not interested in creating "a wider understanding of female beauty", they're selling magazines.  SI is publishing pages and pages of the usual sort of thing that their customers want, plus a 75 year old model and a plus sized model as a nod to criticism.

MH might buy an SI to look at Yumi Nu, and Shady might buy and SI to look at Elon's mom, but buy and large the people who buy SI swimsuit issue are looking for the kind of content that SI swimsuit issue reliably provides.

IN REGARD TO PETERSON

The "authoritarian tolerance" line is amazing, like the government is waterboarding you if you don't like thicc girls.

Peterson misunderstands SI's intent. Peterson assumes SI is attempting to redefine our culture's notions of beauty.   If that were the case, he'd be right. Tastes aren't manufactured. But SI isn't attempting to tell people that overweight women are now le chic. SI is selling the public the same scrawny models they provide every year.

Peterson is dumb, but it's because he thinks SI is attempting to manufacture a consensus that fat women are hot and fails to recognize that SI is actually just featuring this model as a fig leaf for their usual parade of unrealistically slim women that have continued more or less uninterrupted for decades.

 -k
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on May 18, 2022, 12:47:47 pm
IN REGARD TO PETERSON

Peterson misunderstands SI's intent. Peterson assumes SI is attempting to redefine our culture's notions of beauty.   If that were the case, he'd be right. Tastes aren't manufactured. But SI isn't attempting to tell people that overweight women are now le chic. SI is selling the public the same scrawny models they provide every year.

Peterson is dumb, but it's because he thinks SI is attempting to manufacture a consensus that fat women are hot and fails to recognize that SI is actually just featuring this model as a fig leaf for their usual parade of unrealistically slim women that have continued more or less uninterrupted for decades.

Right wingers never understand this stuff. They genuinely believe that stuff like this, or Disney putting a gay character in the background of Star Wars or Starbucks putting a black square in their insta for BLM represents a deep commitment to equality and socialism when all these companies wouldn't hesitate to drive over their employees with a tank if they tried to unionize. But it's an important myth and an article of faith for reactionaries that their lack of cultural representation is evidence of a lack of actual power when nothing could be further from the truth.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 04, 2022, 04:00:45 pm
Despite making a big show of getting off Twitter, our man just couldn't help himself and ended up getting his account suspended for tweeting about Elliot Page (https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-peterson-stay-off-twitter-rather-die-delete0elliot-page-tweet-1721474).

Just a messy **** who loves drama.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2022, 12:48:54 am
Just a messy **** who loves drama.

one of the leading intellectuals of our time - what rules you sons-of-bitches! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1542987689028452352/pu/vid/1920x1080/bQIU29oYf03CI-TM.mp4?tag=14)
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 05, 2022, 09:15:00 am
one of the leading intellectuals of our time - what rules you sons-of-bitches! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1542987689028452352/pu/vid/1920x1080/bQIU29oYf03CI-TM.mp4?tag=14)

Link click -> FULL SCREEN JORDAN !
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2022, 01:47:25 pm
Link click -> FULL SCREEN JORDAN !

LARGE JORDAN
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 05, 2022, 03:16:44 pm
Is there a way to measure his relevance so I can get updates when it hopefully wanes ?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2022, 03:31:07 pm
Is there a way to measure his relevance so I can get updates when it hopefully wanes ?

Oh he has long lost any claim to being a public intellectual, now he's more of a sideshow curiosity.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 05, 2022, 03:34:41 pm
Oh he has long lost any claim to being a public intellectual, now he's more of a sideshow curiosity.

Pretender to Wisdom... adored by those unwise who wish to remain so
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 05, 2022, 04:35:23 pm
Is there a way to measure his relevance so I can get updates when it hopefully wanes ?

Amazon best seller book charts.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 05, 2022, 04:49:42 pm
Amazon best seller book charts.

There’s a lot of gullible, misogynistic, white males to buy his books. 
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 06, 2022, 06:40:01 am
There’s a lot of gullible, misogynistic, white males to buy his books.

His book is the new mein kampf and therefore should be banned and the author jailed for hate speech against lobsters.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 06, 2022, 08:17:32 am
His book is the new mein kampf and therefore should be banned and the author jailed for hate speech against lobsters.

No but he IS an idiot who is taking the place of a real public intellectual to foster unity in these troubled times.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 06, 2022, 01:50:38 pm
No but he IS an idiot who is taking the place of a real public intellectual to foster unity in these troubled times.

Ad hominem, not an argument, therefore ignored.

As I've said all along.  His political stances are hit and miss and sometimes toxic so whatever, most people will agree or disagree based on their personal politics. His psychology on the other hand is brilliant.

People confuse the 2 all the time because they come from the same person but it's totally irrelevant anyways, h8ters gonna h8.  Feel free to h8.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: MH on July 06, 2022, 02:02:28 pm
1. Ad hominem, not an argument, therefore ignored.

2. As I've said all along.  His political stances are hit and miss and sometimes toxic so whatever, most people will agree or disagree based on their personal politics. His psychology on the other hand is brilliant.

People confuse the 2 all the time because they come from the same person but it's totally irrelevant anyways, h8ters gonna h8.  Feel free to h8.
1. I'm not arguing with HIM, so I can disparage him.  I'm not arguing against his points either here.  I'm issuing an opinion - which you may indeed ignore.
2. I don't need a psychologist, so I will defer to you on this one.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 06, 2022, 05:14:37 pm
We all know many people who could use some good advice.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 06, 2022, 06:15:44 pm
We all know many people who could use some good advice.

He’s great at Gish Gallop, which seems to fool a lot of people.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Bubbermiley on July 06, 2022, 07:10:48 pm
In my day, professors knew how the word "whom" worked.
https://twitter.com/BradenIsBased/status/1544448370500161543?t=TlgdfeEjwIdPe1MA-2pLTQ&s=19
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 08, 2022, 09:40:03 pm
No but he IS an idiot who is taking the place of a real public intellectual to foster unity in these troubled times.

As a unifying force I agree with you, he isn't that, he is a culture warrior in the culture war.  I would disagree that he's an idiot, though I would agree that he sometimes says things that range from "wrong" to "idiotic".  He infamously said to Cathy Newman that "in order to be able to think (my edit: or express those thoughts through speech), you have to risk being offensive".  So maybe you also have to risk sounding like an idiot sometimes too, especially when one gets emotional/angry as debates can get, and we all know Jordan is an intense dude who can be quick to anger.

Anyways, this is in your wheelhouse MH:  a long-form debate between educated people discussing ideas:  Sam Harris vs Jordan Peterson, moderated by Bret Weinstein.  An intellectual dark web face-off lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jey_CzIOfYE

Debate is about morals, religion etc.  Harris is famously anti-religious.  Weinstein says in the intro that some of the important things that we have traditionally counted on in order to make sense of the world are collapsing, like the university, and journalism, etc.  So this debate is to try address meaning in our increasingly confusing world.

One of the things they agree on at the outset is that 1. moral relativism (there is no right and wrong) is bad, and 2. religious (and non-religious) dogma is bad.  They roughly define dogma as beliefs held as true (usually based on bad evidence) which cannot be questioned, and this dogma is enforced by some kind of punishment mechanism (ie: apostates put to death, or threats of your soul burning in hell).  They also mention political dogma that is bad, like how people who would speak out against the state in the Soviet Union were killed or jailed etc.  They then agree that this is why free speech is so important:  you're allowed to question any ideas freely, no matter how highly people regard them.

My opinion is that I agree with all of this.  And it shows why dictatorships are bad and why liberal democracy is good.  In liberal democracy we are guaranteed the right to speech, to question ideas, so that when possible we can discover flaws in our currently held ideas and improve upon them, and can also improve upon the law, and even amending the constitution.  This makes for a good, healthy society.  In dictatorships free speech is shunned, you aren't allowed to question the state and its laws and values etc, it is considered "dogma" and people are brainwashed to believe it, the same as religious dogma.  And so because certain powerful people want to cling to power, and don't want their ideas questioned, it is much harder and slower for society to improve, only until society collapses or some major crisis occurs where reevaluation can occur, like when the USSR fell, or Nazi Germany fell.

This is also why i'm ok with discussing any topic whatsoever., in the pursuit of knowledge  I may disagree with a biological racist or a holocaust denier, but if they claim to have good evidence of why they're correct, then we shouldn't mind hearing the evidence.  If they are wrong then the evidence will clearly counter their claims, which can then be ignored.  There should be no ideas that are elevated to the level of "dogma".  The argument that we should maintain dogma and enforce it with punishments for those who question it because there happens to be an idiotic fringe minority that can be whipped up into a frenzy by believing in fringe claims based on bad evidence is a weak argument, and not a reason to shut our ears to controversial subjects, because as Peterson says "in order to be able to think, we have to risk being offensive".  And it can be a great excuse for people who wish to enforce dogmatic ideas to never have to hear any counter-arguments and never be questioned.

I think we're living in a new age of dogma, where traditional religious dogma is being replaced by political and moral dogma, and "apostates" are being punished (ie: "cancelled"), sometimes rightfully, but sometimes unjustly, for questioning dogma and causing moral outrage akin to Christian grandmothers clutching their pearls 50 years ago.  Socrates was put to death by the state for question dogma.  He famously also believed that wisdom comes from recognizing one's own ignorance.

But then it also begs the question:  if our universities/schools, journalism outlets etc are being so politicized and failing in their duties, what can be done, if anything, about those without the skills or intelligence to think critically but tend to believe what they are being fed?  Example:  Jan. 6th.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 08, 2022, 11:03:01 pm
What good evidence could their possibly be to deny the Holocaust?  That’s simply idiotic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 09, 2022, 10:17:56 am
What good evidence could their possibly be to deny the Holocaust?  That’s simply idiotic.

Well yes, but let's say numbers. Official numbers are around 6 million, what if someone said it was only 1 or 2 million.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 11, 2022, 03:10:20 pm
Ad hominem, not an argument, therefore ignored.

As I've said all along.  His political stances are hit and miss and sometimes toxic so whatever, most people will agree or disagree based on their personal politics. His psychology on the other hand is brilliant.

People confuse the 2 all the time because they come from the same person but it's totally irrelevant anyways, h8ters gonna h8.  Feel free to h8.

No it's not.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 11, 2022, 03:13:35 pm
One of the things they agree on at the outset is that 1. moral relativism (there is no right and wrong) is bad, and 2. religious (and non-religious) dogma is bad. 

that's...not what moral relatavism is.

Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 11, 2022, 07:35:30 pm
that's...not what moral relatavism is.
No universal right or wrong.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 11, 2022, 07:39:39 pm
No it's not.

You wouldn't admit it even if you thought it was.  Your thinking is very black and white.  You don't like him and therefore everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong.  You're not interested in discussing ideas, you're interested in pushing dogma because you want "your side" to win the culture war.  How boring and anti-academic.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 11, 2022, 09:03:33 pm
No universal right or wrong.

That's a overly simplistic definition.

You wouldn't admit it even if you thought it was.  Your thinking is very black and white.  You don't like him and therefore everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong.  You're not interested in discussing ideas, you're interested in pushing dogma because you want "your side" to win the culture war.  How boring and anti-academic.

Brilliant:

Quote
“I dreamed I saw my maternal grandmother sitting by the bank of a swimming pool, that was also a river. In real life, she had been a victim of Alzheimer’s disease, and had regressed, before her death, to a semi-conscious state. In the dream, as well, she had lost her capacity for self-control. Her genital region was exposed, dimly; it had the appearance of a thick mat of hair. She was stroking herself, absent-mindedly. She walked over to me, with a handful of pubic hair, compacted into something resembling a large artist’s paint-brush. She pushed this at my face. I raised my arm, several times, to deflect her hand; finally, unwilling to hurt her, or interfere with her any farther, I let her have her way. She stroked my face with the brush, gently, and said, like a child, “isn’t it soft?” I looked at her ruined face and said, “yes, Grandma, it’s soft.”
― Jordan B. Peterson, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief


Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 11, 2022, 09:08:04 pm
No universal right or wrong.

So you think there are “universal” rights and wrongs?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 11, 2022, 10:16:12 pm
So you think there are “universal” rights and wrongs?

Yes.

If nothing is true than everything can be permitted.  Sexually molesting young children, for example, is universally wrong.  Raping disabled or elderly people?  Also universally wrong.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 11, 2022, 10:30:42 pm
Yes.

If nothing is true than everything can be permitted.  Sexually molesting young children, for example, is universally wrong.  Raping disabled or elderly people?  Also universally wrong.

Where do the universal morals come from?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 11, 2022, 11:29:39 pm
Where do the universal morals come from?

A sense of justice that traverses time and space?

There's lot of things that are morally relative though, but others that are true across cultures.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 12, 2022, 10:16:17 am
Yes.

If nothing is true than everything can be permitted. Sexually molesting young children, for example, is universally wrong.  Raping disabled or elderly people?  Also universally wrong.

This is demonstrably untrue. Ancient Greece and Rome had their catamites, bacha bazi has been a cultural practice in Afghanistan for centuries, child marriage was a universal norm for centuries even in western cultures until relatively recently. This is evidence that universal values do not exist.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 12, 2022, 10:46:39 am
A sense of justice that traverses time and space?


This is nonsensical.  How does a “sense”, which is in a human’s brain, traverse time and space?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Queen LaQueefa on July 12, 2022, 09:40:55 pm
This is demonstrably untrue. Ancient Greece and Rome had their catamites, bacha bazi has been a cultural practice in Afghanistan for centuries, child marriage was a universal norm for centuries even in western cultures until relatively recently. This is evidence that universal values do not exist.

Just because something exists in a culture doesn't mean it's generally accepted as "just" in that society..  Bacha bazi is a terrible example.  That's like saying westerners think pedophilia is ok because a lot of priests have done it, or prostitution etc.  Some practices exist only because people with power are able to get away with them, not because they are inherently morally just or even considered just by that society.

If you were a Canadian rep for the UN would you be ok with bacha bazi because "moral relativism"?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 13, 2022, 10:25:31 am
Just because something exists in a culture doesn't mean it's generally accepted as "just" in that society..  Bacha bazi is a terrible example.  That's like saying westerners think pedophilia is ok because a lot of priests have done it, or prostitution etc.  Some practices exist only because people with power are able to get away with them, not because they are inherently morally just or even considered just by that society.

If you were a Canadian rep for the UN would you be ok with bacha bazi because "moral relativism"?


Moral relativism doesn't assert there's no such thing as right and wrong, only that what we consider right and wrong is shaped by specific social and cultural forces. And the abscence of universal ideas of right and wrong doesn't preclude making moral judgments.

As someone who has argued against tearing down statues of John A McDonald, I think you understand moral relativism better than you pretend to.
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 13, 2022, 05:12:35 pm
This is nonsensical.  How does a “sense”, which is in a human’s brain, traverse time and space?

Nothing? 

I thought it might be interesting, but I guess it was another vapid comment from Graham. Is he just parroting Peterson?
Title: Re: How about a Discussion on Jordan Peterson?
Post by: Black Dog on July 14, 2022, 11:43:55 am
This is also why i'm ok with discussing any topic whatsoever., in the pursuit of knowledge  I may disagree with a biological racist or a holocaust denier, but if they claim to have good evidence of why they're correct, then we shouldn't mind hearing the evidence.  If they are wrong then the evidence will clearly counter their claims, which can then be ignored.  There should be no ideas that are elevated to the level of "dogma".

Doesn't believe in moral relativism, but also doesn't apparently believe in facts.