Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30234 times)

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Offline Dia

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #465 on: November 30, 2021, 03:20:33 pm »
Or let people spread bad ideas unchallenged?  No thanks.

I think the 2 main options are:  go along with these ideas or challenge them.  If you're fine with going along with them unchallenged that's your choice and I've made mine.

Challenging the same dumb ideas gets boring after a while, and it doesn't seem to make them go away I've noticed. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #466 on: November 30, 2021, 03:49:07 pm »
I don't know how many times I can say that the point of AA or diversity hiring is not to correct for individual incidences of individual racism or discrimination, but to  break down systemic barriers. So it's not about whether or not an individual hiring manager is being discriminatory, it's about the discriminatory structures that prevent someone from even getting in the door in the first place.

That's not necessarily true, there's all sorts of reasons why AA is put in place, it will completely depend on the people implementing them, their reasons/motivations will vary.  I'm also not talking only about individual managers but organizations as a whole, or even units within orgs.  At least if things are studied and implemented on an org-wide or industry-wide level that's fine by me.

As I said, I'm open to AA in principle if it's evidence-based and not people pulling things out of their butts because of their feelings or "things just don't look right".  If minorities are legit losing job opportunities because of racism/sexism ok that's wrong let's fix that, let's even make up for those numbers with AA, but let's do it scientifically so we don't end up making things unfair for other people.  If people are really concerned about justice they will agree with me because it's the logical and fair thing to do.  But instead we see a lot of places that see a lot of men and white faces and just assume racism and try to correct it without bothering to check if that's actually going on.  This shouldn't be a guessing game, these are people's jobs.

And if group X has higher incomes in general across the board, but it doesn't have anything to do with racist/sexist hiring biases, AA if not an appropriate way to create more income equality.  That should be done through things like education and social programs that should be available to everyone in financial need, because this is equality of opportunity.  AA should be done to address unfair hiring biases (again, equality of opportunity), not as a social program to lift up entire groups that have lower socioeconomic status because people just want to help them.  That's just social engineering and its unjust to those discriminated against.  AA should not be a charity program.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 03:51:01 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #467 on: November 30, 2021, 06:38:20 pm »
And if group X has higher incomes in general across the board, but it doesn't have anything to do with racist/sexist hiring biases, AA if not an appropriate way to create more income equality.  That should be done through things like education and social programs that should be available to everyone in financial need, because this is equality of opportunity.  AA should be done to address unfair hiring biases (again, equality of opportunity), not as a social program to lift up entire groups that have lower socioeconomic status because people just want to help them.  That's just social engineering and its unjust to those discriminated against.  AA should not be a charity program.

I don't actually disagree with most of this, but education and social programs are a long game and don't help anyone in the short term who needs a job or access to education.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #468 on: November 30, 2021, 09:28:06 pm »
I don't actually disagree with most of this, but education and social programs are a long game and don't help anyone in the short term who needs a job or access to education.

I agree, it's a long game and goes at root problems, but what are we to do?  Somebody is going to get the job and somebody isn't, that's just how it works.

I see the value in AA and diversity hires etc because it creates new norms.  Like you see lots of POC and female directors now in movies and TV, a bunch of that probably due to AA, so executives with racial/gender biases probably change their biases when they see people from different groups can succeed.  But then at what cost is this being done?  This stuff has to be done carefully, there's a fine line in AA because when helping someone get a job you're denying another.  We need to think really hard about these things and not take them as lightly as many seem to be doing, which has been my whole point.

Progressives need to be careful with this stuff because if they do it wrong it could create resentment from people who are being denied the jobs from AA and fuel white nationalism, Trumpism etc.  Everyone needs to be treated fairly and be respected.  The only way politics works is when everyone has their voices heard and are able to live freely without others holding them down unfairly.  You don't do that and you things like aboriginal resentment, Quebec nationalism, Alberta alienation, BLM protests etc.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #469 on: November 30, 2021, 10:11:15 pm »
As someone who is called progressive, I want to state that AA programs should be temporary.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #470 on: December 01, 2021, 01:42:38 am »
As someone who is called progressive, I want to state that AA programs should be temporary.

They would need to be temporary if the goal is equality of outcome.  If racial bias in hiring never goes away then they would need to be permanent.  The idea that racism/sexism and other prejudice will go away...well we won't see that in our lifetimes unfortunately.  AA programs should exist on a need basis only, which is why i'm calling for organizations to do actual evidence-based assessments on whether and what needs exist so they know how to respond to the problems they believe are occurring, and if and when to end them if the problem no longer exists.

Saying "I feel like there seems to be problem" and "I feel it's probably a good time to end AA because the problem seems to be solved" just isn't good enough when you're dealing with programs that deny people employment opportunities on the basis of their skin colour or gender etc.  Whether there is a problem, who it affects, and how much it affects them should be something we try to find out as best we can.  Unfortunately this takes time and resources so most won't bother and just go on hiring more POC and women without actually operationalizing the need so they can pat themselves on the back and assuage their own guilt while acquiring positive PR for their organization.  Whether it unfairly affects caucasians or men or not, well who gives a f*** about them and their rights, right?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #471 on: December 01, 2021, 09:49:02 am »
I agree, it's a long game and goes at root problems, but what are we to do?  Somebody is going to get the job and somebody isn't, that's just how it works.

I see the value in AA and diversity hires etc because it creates new norms.  Like you see lots of POC and female directors now in movies and TV, a bunch of that probably due to AA, so executives with racial/gender biases probably change their biases when they see people from different groups can succeed.  But then at what cost is this being done?  This stuff has to be done carefully, there's a fine line in AA because when helping someone get a job you're denying another.  We need to think really hard about these things and not take them as lightly as many seem to be doing, which has been my whole point.

I mean no one is owed a job...

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Progressives need to be careful with this stuff because if they do it wrong it could create resentment from people who are being denied the jobs from AA and fuel white nationalism, Trumpism etc. Everyone needs to be treated fairly and be respected.

I see this sentiment a lot as a reason not to pursue progressive policies WRT everything from school curricula, affirmative action, diversity training, trans rights etc etc. I don't deny that a lot of the lunacy we've been seeing on the right is backlash to the perceived excesses of the left, but I reject the idea that there's a certain degree of social progressivism that the right would tolerate. It doesn't really matter how small or anodyne progressive measures are; the right wing disinformation machine will whip it into an existential threat no matter what. Remember: at the end of the day progressives want a just society; the revanchist right fundamentally does not.

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  The only way politics works is when everyone has their voices heard and are able to live freely without others holding them down unfairly.  You don't do that and you things like aboriginal resentment, Quebec nationalism, Alberta alienation, BLM protests etc.

But we live in world where people are held down unfairly and always will, at least as long as capitalism exists.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #472 on: December 01, 2021, 10:39:13 am »

But we live in world where people are held down unfairly and always will, at least as long as capitalism exists.
I don't buy it. Capitalism just like communism is simply a thing and how they're used is what really matters.

Outlaw in-camera lobbying and eliminate secrecy from the public's domain and everything will change. It should be obvious that the root cause leading to the inequality of outcomes starts at the beginning of the process behind closed doors.

Money and wealth makes everything easier. Secrecy and inequality of influence retards that.  Progressive people have lost sight of what it really means to be left-wing by following conservatives down a rat-hole of discussing everything in terms of outcomes. The problem is at the other end where unequal inputs to the process ensure unequal outcomes are baked in long before anyone notices. Its no wonder, when it's all a big secret.  The issue has never been the distribution of wealth but the distribution of power and I guarantee you that inequality will be the outcome in any and every socio-economic political system where people in positions of power and influence are able to discuss public domain issues in secrecy.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #473 on: December 01, 2021, 10:43:16 am »
I don't buy it. Capitalism just like communism is simply a thing and how they're used is what really matters.

Outlaw in-camera lobbying and eliminate secrecy from the public's domain and everything will change. It should be obvious that the root cause leading to the inequality of outcomes starts at the beginning of the process behind closed doors.

Money and wealth makes everything easier. Secrecy and inequality of influence retards that.  Progressive people have lost sight of what it really means to be left-wing by following conservatives down a rat-hole of discussing everything in terms of outcomes. The problem is at the other end where unequal inputs to the process ensure unequal outcomes are baked in long before anyone notices.

Feature, not a bug.

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Its no wonder, when it's all a big secret. The issue has never been the distribution of wealth but the distribution of power and I guarantee you that inequality will be the outcome in any and every socio-economic political system where people in positions of power and influence are able to discuss public domain issues in secrecy.

These are not different things btw.

I also don't buy that the problem is secrecy. Racism was codified in laws for everyone to read. Big money interests openly lobby legislators to do their will. Everyone knows the game.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #474 on: December 01, 2021, 11:17:48 am »
Feature, not a bug.
Not just a bug, more like a virus.

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These are not different things btw.
They are simply prone to being mutual inclusive by excluding everyone else. Wealth and power are not however one and the same thing like time and space.

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I also don't buy that the problem is secrecy. Racism was codified in laws for everyone to read. Big money interests openly lobby legislators to do their will. Everyone knows the game.
Openly lobby? You and I have a remarkably different definition for the phrase openly lobby. The lobbying is clearly not open or equal.

The problem is inequality that is merely more obvious when measuring outcomes.

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #475 on: December 01, 2021, 12:23:13 pm »
Openly lobby? You and I have a remarkably different definition for the phrase openly lobby. The lobbying is clearly not open or equal.

Open in the sense that all we know they give politicians money, the politicians take it and vote the way their donors want. The specifics of how the sausage are made may be secret but we all know there are sausages coming out of the factory.

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The problem is inequality that is merely more obvious when measuring outcomes.

IDK what this means.

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #476 on: December 01, 2021, 02:53:43 pm »
Open in the sense that all we know they give politicians money, the politicians take it and vote the way their donors want. The specifics of how the sausage are made may be secret but we all know there are sausages coming out of the factory.
That's right and the devil is in the specifics.

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IDK what this means.
It simply means anyone can see when outcomes are unequal where it's most obvious, which is usually after the fact and when it's too late.

I guess I should have said the problem is power but the solution needs to be applied at the other end of the pipe from which the outcomes are flowing. You're certainly not the only progressive who doesn't want to go there. Why remains a mystery to me.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 02:55:54 pm by eyeball »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #477 on: December 01, 2021, 03:52:52 pm »
I mean no one is owed a job...

I agree, but everyone is owed the right to be treated justly.

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I see this sentiment a lot as a reason not to pursue progressive policies WRT everything from school curricula, affirmative action, diversity training, trans rights etc etc. I don't deny that a lot of the lunacy we've been seeing on the right is backlash to the perceived excesses of the left, but I reject the idea that there's a certain degree of social progressivism that the right would tolerate. It doesn't really matter how small or anodyne progressive measures are; the right wing disinformation machine will whip it into an existential threat no matter what. Remember: at the end of the day progressives want a just society; the revanchist right fundamentally does not.

I agree with this.  The danger is in losing the moderates and left-of-center types.  They can be red-pilled, and many already have.  Moderates can get on board with demonizing racists and sexists, it's different when whites and men as a group get demonized, it can get people's backs up so they feel they need to defend themselves, same when progressives go over the line to where it tramples on other's rights.

The danger is losing people like Bill Maher or Kimmy to the right.  Elections are won by the moderate swing-voters, the **** left and right folks will never change their minds.  US voters elected Bill Clinton, then George Bush, then Obama, then Trump.  Canadians elected Chretien, then Harper, then Trudeau.  The moderates determine everything.  Kimmy isn't a conservative, but she feels she has no choice but to defend her own rights when she feels the rights of others are intruding on them.  I'm also not a conservative btw, I voted for Trudeau in 2015, I would have voted for Obama and Bernie Sanders, i'm probably moderate to right-of-center socially on lots of things but i'm left-of-center economically.

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But we live in world where people are held down unfairly and always will, at least as long as capitalism exists.

I agree, and conflict usually happens when it occurs.  Reduce people being treated unfairly, reduce social conflict.  The only problem to resolve is when the rights of 2 or more groups conflict.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #478 on: December 01, 2021, 04:01:34 pm »
I don't buy it. Capitalism just like communism is simply a thing and how they're used is what really matters.

Outlaw in-camera lobbying and eliminate secrecy from the public's domain and everything will change. It should be obvious that the root cause leading to the inequality of outcomes starts at the beginning of the process behind closed doors.

Money and wealth makes everything easier. Secrecy and inequality of influence retards that.  Progressive people have lost sight of what it really means to be left-wing by following conservatives down a rat-hole of discussing everything in terms of outcomes. The problem is at the other end where unequal inputs to the process ensure unequal outcomes are baked in long before anyone notices. Its no wonder, when it's all a big secret.  The issue has never been the distribution of wealth but the distribution of power and I guarantee you that inequality will be the outcome in any and every socio-economic political system where people in positions of power and influence are able to discuss public domain issues in secrecy.

I agree with this.

Equality of outcome also isn't a worthy goal in itself.  Different people have different abilities.  People who are really smart and really hardworking and come from healthy family dynamics etc will always do better, and so they should.  The point is to give everyone the chance to be reach their full potential, and have the system be fair for them to do this, and to provide supports for those who are struggling so that mobility for them can happen as easily as possible with fewest barriers, and have basic needs met so people in dire situations don't suffer needlessly.

The rich and powerful have stacked the deck for themselves, the rich and politicians are in league with each other, we all know this to be true, and usually they're the same people.  Capitalism rewards the best ideas and the hardest work, and punishes the opposite.  The problem is when capitalism becomes either 1. corrupt, or 2. tyrannical.  Laws are needed to keep the wolves at bay and protect the weaker.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #479 on: December 01, 2021, 04:06:48 pm »
Feature, not a bug.

These are not different things btw.

I also don't buy that the problem is secrecy. Racism was codified in laws for everyone to read. Big money interests openly lobby legislators to do their will. Everyone knows the game.

This is more a problem in the USA.  I think one of the problems is that voters don't have direct control, they just vote for a party and the party then controls everything. 

I would have a system where people voted on Cabinet ministers.  Then every department and its programs and policies would be held directly accountable to the people.  If you wanted an NDP immigration minister, a Green Party environment minister, a conservative veterans affairs minister, this could all be possible at the same time and could all stay or individuals swapped out next election.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley