Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30099 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #450 on: November 29, 2021, 03:50:33 pm »
How come the pro-diversity people have to provide rigorous statistical analysis, but you can't back up your claims that affirmative action-type policies actually harm any white people?

Are you serious????

How would denying employement to white people and men based on their gender and race NOT harm them?

If you want to discriminate THE BURDEN IS ON YOU.  Why?  Because discrimination IS ILLEGAL and against basic human rights, yo.  So you better have good reason and back it up with evidence.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #451 on: November 29, 2021, 03:58:17 pm »
Are you serious????

How would denying employement to white people and men based on their gender and race NOT harm them?

Well you have to prove anyone is being denied employment. In other words, you need to apply the same standards to your argument as you demand from the other side.

Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #452 on: November 29, 2021, 03:59:43 pm »
If you're going to discriminate against people in hiring practices and school admissions etc to right wrongs, the burden isn't on me to prove there isn't any wrongs occurring, the burden is on the people discriminating to prove there's wrongs occurring.

Again: you're claiming these hiring practices are discriminatory; a claim you have asserted repeatedly without evidence.

Then what is the specific people are trying to correct?

I think the argument is a diverse and more representative workforce is a good thing for organizations and society as a whole, so hiring practices that recruit qualified employees from those groups aren't necessarily about ameliorating racism or ensuring a precise alignment with demographics.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 04:16:29 pm by Black Dog »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #453 on: November 29, 2021, 05:39:45 pm »
Here's an example I have used in the past and maybe the two of you could reference it for your discussion:

Additional spaces that are created for diversity.  ie. NOT taking away chances for people who don't qualify but adding new ones specifically to promote, for example, POC on the police force.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #454 on: November 29, 2021, 07:28:47 pm »
Well you have to prove anyone is being denied employment. In other words, you need to apply the same standards to your argument as you demand from the other side.

The burden isn't on me.  Nobody has the right to racially/sexually discriminate against people based on guesses and feelings and progressive PR.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #455 on: November 29, 2021, 07:37:37 pm »
Again: you're claiming these hiring practices are discriminatory; a claim you have asserted repeatedly without evidence.

They're discriminatory by their very nature.  If you make people from certain groups ineligible for a position based on race and gender that is discrimination by definition.  Trudeau made cabinet 50% women, he discriminated against the men in cabinet, that's not up for any debate.  What is up for debate is whether the discrimination is justified, and if you want to justify it then bring the numbers and evidence.

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I think the argument is a diverse and more representative workforce is a good thing for organizations and society as a whole, so hiring practices that recruit qualified employees from those groups aren't necessarily about ameliorating racism or ensuring a precise alignment with demographics.

That's part of the argument, certainly not the whole argument.  I don't see how there would be much value in it unless the work specifically would benefit from it.  Like maybe you have diverse set of clients and having someone who can speak their native tongue is an asset, so you add that as part of the qualifications.  Or maybe you feel you need to consult with female points of view to reach female customers, so add it to the qualifications.  No problem.

I've worked with POC, their skin never added any value but sometimes they'd be able to translate something in another language that was useful.  But maybe other industries want the input of POC, which is valid.  So add it to the qualifications during hiring, and be specific.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #456 on: November 29, 2021, 07:42:24 pm »
Here's an example I have used in the past and maybe the two of you could reference it for your discussion:

Additional spaces that are created for diversity.  ie. NOT taking away chances for people who don't qualify but adding new ones specifically to promote, for example, POC on the police force.

The thing with the police is that being a POC can be an actual useful qualification for a job because the person's skin colour/culture can relate to the community they serve if it's a minority population.  I have no problem with that because it makes logical sense and actually has to do with the job itself instead of a vague concept like "fighting historical oppression".

Unlike Black Dog i'm actually reasonable and willing to compromise and can give an inch when it makes sense.  Black Dog is fighting the culture war with 100% effort 100% of the time without relenting on any point.  So then it seems it's just about "winning" then doing what's right.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 07:45:13 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #457 on: November 29, 2021, 07:48:09 pm »
   Black Dog is fighting the culture war with 100% effort 100% of the time without relenting on any point.  So then it seems it's just about "winning" then doing what's right.

If you feel that way, then you probably should move on from the discussion.

All you can do is find out somebody's principles, and determine where/whether they are consistent IMO.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #458 on: November 29, 2021, 07:57:43 pm »
If you feel that way, then you probably should move on from the discussion.

All you can do is find out somebody's principles, and determine where/whether they are consistent IMO.

Or we could keep doing this and 5000 posts later we'll have the Gender Culture thread while having accomplished nothing when I could have been playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild on Nintendo Switch.
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Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #459 on: November 29, 2021, 09:06:14 pm »
The burden isn't on me.  Nobody has the right to racially/sexually discriminate against people based on guesses and feelings and progressive PR.

You can't claim discrimination based on guesses and feelings either.

Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #460 on: November 29, 2021, 09:13:54 pm »
They're discriminatory by their very nature.  If you make people from certain groups ineligible for a position based on race and gender that is discrimination by definition.

I'd like to see some evidence that's happening.

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Trudeau made cabinet 50% women, he discriminated against the men in cabinet, that's not up for any debate.  What is up for debate is whether the discrimination is justified, and if you want to justify it then bring the numbers and evidence.

So were all the cabinets that weren't 50% female discriminating against women?

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That's part of the argument, certainly not the whole argument.  I don't see how there would be much value in it unless the work specifically would benefit from it.  Like maybe you have diverse set of clients and having someone who can speak their native tongue is an asset, so you add that as part of the qualifications.  Or maybe you feel you need to consult with female points of view to reach female customers, so add it to the qualifications.  No problem.

I've worked with POC, their skin never added any value but sometimes they'd be able to translate something in another language that was useful.  But maybe other industries want the input of POC, which is valid.  So add it to the qualifications during hiring, and be specific.

People from different background can offer different perspectives and bring different experiences to the table. It doesn't need to be about hard skills or having token representation that you can trot out. I've been in enough rooms of straight white guys in my time to know how groupthink can dominate any homogenous unit.

Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #461 on: November 29, 2021, 09:19:11 pm »
The thing with the police is that being a POC can be an actual useful qualification for a job because the person's skin colour/culture can relate to the community they serve if it's a minority population.  I have no problem with that because it makes logical sense and actually has to do with the job itself instead of a vague concept like "fighting historical oppression".

So to be clear: you think affording more opportunities to a broader segment of society is not worthy goal in and of itself?

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Unlike Black Dog i'm actually reasonable and willing to compromise and can give an inch when it makes sense.  Black Dog is fighting the culture war with 100% effort 100% of the time without relenting on any point.  So then it seems it's just about "winning" then doing what's right.

"Doing what's right" here being "reverting to the status quo ante" in which unfair advantages revert to benefiting white males only.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #462 on: November 29, 2021, 10:04:26 pm »
So were all the cabinets that weren't 50% female discriminating against women?

I have no idea, it's very well possible, and at some point especially decades ago even highly likely.  I guess someone would have to do some research and try to figure that out, which seems a lot better than making assumptions.

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People from different background can offer different perspectives and bring different experiences to the table. It doesn't need to be about hard skills or having token representation that you can trot out.

If that's the intention, and the people hiring actually mean it, then sure at least that makes logical sense and I can kinda get behind that.  And as I've said, IF racism/discrimination is shown to be happening against certain groups at certain organizations I have no real issues with correcting that with affirmative action, because that's the whole point of AA.

The problem I have is a situation like ie: men are shown to be admitted to universities at a rate lower than women, so then they put in gender quotas to let in more men and thus by default denying admission some women who were more qualified.  (It being assumed that nobody is discriminating against men in admissions and they just have worse marks).  I'm sure women would be PO'd at this, as they should be, because it's fundamentally unfair and I don't agree with it.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #463 on: November 29, 2021, 10:07:35 pm »
So to be clear: you think affording more opportunities to a broader segment of society is not worthy goal in and of itself?

No, it all depends on how that's done.  I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

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"Doing what's right" here being "reverting to the status quo ante" in which unfair advantages revert to benefiting white males only.

I don't want the status quo.  I want a society where everyone is judged not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character.  There are measures that can be done to reduce racial/gender bias, like hiding names on resumes.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Online Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #464 on: November 30, 2021, 03:08:26 pm »
If that's the intention, and the people hiring actually mean it, then sure at least that makes logical sense and I can kinda get behind that.  And as I've said, IF racism/discrimination is shown to be happening against certain groups at certain organizations I have no real issues with correcting that with affirmative action, because that's the whole point of AA.

I don't know how many times I can say that the point of AA or diversity hiring is not to correct for individual incidences of individual racism or discrimination, but to  break down systemic barriers. So it's not about whether or not an individual hiring manager is being discriminatory, it's about the discriminatory structures that prevent someone from even getting in the door in the first place.

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I don't want the status quo.  I want a society where everyone is judged not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character.  There are measures that can be done to reduce racial/gender bias, like hiding names on resumes.

It's nice to have dreams but we have to work in the world we live in and if we dismantled equity hiring/AA, we know what would happen: minority participation in the workforce and education would plummet because equality of opportunity doesn't exist.