Author Topic: Woke Culture  (Read 30188 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #435 on: November 28, 2021, 04:48:48 pm »
1. Well - given what we have learned so far, I don't see this touching on hiring people who DON'T have merit.  My insider told me this Friday: "We're all men, taking the training and agreeing to the principles but yet still hiring all men all the time."  I think the point is that women would get a fair shake if they ever applied.

Well again i'm not talking about hiring people who don't have merit, i'm talking about hiring the person with the most merit and therefore not discriminating against people.

2. This is politics.  White men have a HUGE advantage in getting elected, just based on their gender and race.  It can't be denied.  The voter, as much as they are expected to use intelligence in making their choice, really only select candidates in the same way they select grocery store items based on the package.[/quote]

Men in general have an advantage in politics because some ignorant people are sexist in their voting preference.  When it comes to race, the dominant race in any given constituency will always have an advantage because virtually all ethnicities contain many racist people who will prefer to elect someone of their own ethnicity, this seems especially true amongst the older and more close-minded of population who haven't been exposed to other ethnicities as much as younger people have.  Lots of whites prefer to elect or hire white people, and lots of ie: South Asians prefer to hire or elect other South Asians.  You look around Vancouver area or GTA and it's pretty obvious, whether in stores or at MP's and it seems pretty obvious.

This is obviously ethically wrong because racism/sexism is wrong, the question is what do we do about it?  My argument is that two wrongs don't make a right, and discriminating against people because others are discriminated against is wrong, not to mention the social science people use to make up whatever hiring decisions or quotas is usually terrible or non-existent.  (As far as quotas go, you don't need hard quotas written into policy, because someone can say "we have too many white people, let's hire a few POC".  This is a quota, albeit a soft quota someone has pulled out of their butts.  "Too many of race/gender X" or "Not enough of race/gender X" is a quota)

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If 'Black Woman' is the flavour of the month, then that's in the mix.  You really want to stop at this point and say race and gender shouldn't matter ?  Quit while you're ahead, I say.  Do you think the Republicans would pick a black woman ?  Do you think it's ok for that bias to go one way only ? 

Race and gender shouldn't matter for general hiring decisions, which is the whole point.

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Of course it's ALL bad.  So, great then - take it out of politics.  How are you going to do that exactly ?

Keep telling people to stop being racist and sexist and judge everyone not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character etc.

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3.  There's no way to enforce a rule that the 'best person' be picked because:

a. You are comparing apples and oranges and a set of different capabilities that are all different
b. Electability is the most important part of being the best person

Sure, but you also don't have to have policies that specify that the most qualified person doesn't need to be picked and that skin colour and gender are hiring criteria.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #436 on: November 28, 2021, 08:11:35 pm »
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Race and gender shouldn't matter for general hiring decisions, which is the whole point.

Are you so daft that you don’t know that race and gender have been factors for several generations??  Now that it is starting to turn, you’re all “it’s not faiiiir”. 
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #437 on: November 28, 2021, 08:24:01 pm »
you also don't have to have policies that specify that the most qualified person doesn't need to be picked and that skin colour and gender are hiring criteria.

Yes.  Let's keep on the lookout for that.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #438 on: November 28, 2021, 08:58:44 pm »
Are you so daft that you don’t know that race and gender have been factors for several generations??  Now that it is starting to turn, you’re all “it’s not faiiiir”.

Stop whining.  You're such a little prick that always argues in bad faith.

You're either against discrimination or you aren't.  You can't choose which colours and genders or religions to discriminate against or not.  Because duh that's racism, sexism, and....it's discriminatory.  I'm against discrimination of anybody on the basis of race, sex etc. and have been for my entire life.
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #439 on: November 28, 2021, 10:44:47 pm »
Race and gender shouldn't matter for general hiring decisions, which is the whole point.

They always have, though, along with other things like "where you went to school" and "who your father is". Pretending these things don't matter won't make them not matter.


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Keep telling people to stop being racist and sexist and judge everyone not by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character etc.

Once again, you chalk up employment discrimination, like so many other discriminatory policies, as conscious decisions by individuals and not the product of decades or centuries of conditioning.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #440 on: November 28, 2021, 10:57:20 pm »
They always have, though, along with other things like "where you went to school" and "who your father is". Pretending these things don't matter won't make them not matter.

They do matter, they matter very much, because discrimination is wrong.

People like yourself are saying "Denying people jobs because of their race or gender is wrong, so to fix that by denying other people jobs because of their colour and gender".

It wouldn't even be so horrible if the "virtuous" discrimination now more frequently being done was actually based on sound reasoning or social science.  But people just say "Hey the # of X people in our company doesn't match the number of X people in the general population, therefore discrimination must be happening so let's fix that".
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Once again, you chalk up employment discrimination, like so many other discriminatory policies, as conscious decisions by individuals and not the product of decades or centuries of conditioning.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.  If you're a racist it's not anyone's fault but yours.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #441 on: November 29, 2021, 05:31:03 am »
They do matter, they matter very much, because discrimination is wrong.

I get it.  But what if you can only defeat discrimination by using it against itself?

Offline eyeball

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #442 on: November 29, 2021, 09:22:22 am »
I get it.  But what if you can only defeat discrimination by using it against itself?
You have to compensate the new people being discriminated against.

Thats what they did when it came time to shift the emphasis on allocating fish towards indigenous fishermen and away from everyone else.

Of course it didn't help when more powerful non-indigenous fishing interests, big corporate interests that is, lobbied DFO to ensure they felt less of a sting than little independent suckers like me.  A couple years of basically allowing the perception that non-indigenous were greedy racists to build took the sting out of it for DFO.

It shouldn't have to suck for people caught in the transition.between settling past racial, social and economic injustices but it does nonetheless.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 09:23:57 am by eyeball »
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #443 on: November 29, 2021, 09:51:53 am »
They do matter, they matter very much, because discrimination is wrong.

The problem is you continue to assume that the answer is "tell people to not discriminate" which is pretty simplistic and doesn't really address the root of the problem, which, again, is not individual managers consciously making discriminatory hiring choices.

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People like yourself are saying "Denying people jobs because of their race or gender is wrong, so to fix that by denying other people jobs because of their colour and gender".

This just shows you don't understand the other side of this at all.

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Everyone is responsible for their own actions.  If you're a racist it's not anyone's fault but yours.

At this point I can't tell if you're missing the point on purpose or you just can't grasp that racism is more than personal animus towards a minority group or individual.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 09:54:03 am by Black Dog »

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #444 on: November 29, 2021, 01:57:14 pm »
I get it.  But what if you can only defeat discrimination by using it against itself?

What if the discrimination people use to offset other discrimination is based on bad social science?  Then it's just discrimination.

Here's a compromise: If you're going to discriminate with affirmative action you better be darn sure you're doing it properly and based on sound evidence and metrics and not pulling numbers out of your butt for the sake of "diversity".    To do otherwise should be illegal.

If you're going to do it then equality of opportunity should be the goal, not equality of outcome.  Not all racial and gender inequalities are due to discrimination.  We know this from looking at the NBA and the gender divide of new medical doctors and university grads in general.  Therefore these organizations need to get off their lazy butts and actually do some statistcal research and arrive at evidence based targets.  But they don't want to, they just want to save the world and stick their heads in the cloud without caring whose rights they infringe.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #445 on: November 29, 2021, 02:15:49 pm »
1. What if the discrimination people use to offset other discrimination is based on bad social science?  Then it's just discrimination.

2. Here's a compromise: If you're going to discriminate with affirmative action you better be darn sure you're doing it properly and based on sound evidence and metrics and not pulling numbers out of your butt for the sake of "diversity".    To do otherwise should be illegal.

3. If you're going to do it then equality of opportunity should be the goal, not equality of outcome.  Not all racial and gender inequalities are due to discrimination. 

4. We know this from looking at the NBA ...

5. and the gender divide of new medical doctors and university grads in general. 

6. Therefore these organizations need to get off their lazy butts and actually do some statistcal research and arrive at evidence based targets.  But they don't want to, they just want to save the world and stick their heads in the cloud without caring whose rights they infringe.
1. I agree - but ... what if it isn't ? It ok ?
2. I'm going to agree with you to this point.  I'm not going to comment on specific programs because we haven't listed any.  Conceptually we *might* be ok with corrections but only if they're done correctly.
3. Agreed.
4. I gave an example of why the NBA is an example of racial exclusion, though.  What did you think ?
5. Don't know about this example - is it that more women are graduating than men ?  This is likely due to a backlash effect.
6. They could do with community engagement with a "public" of informed and involved individuals. 

Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #446 on: November 29, 2021, 02:22:57 pm »
What if the discrimination people use to offset other discrimination is based on bad social science?  Then it's just discrimination.

Here's a compromise: If you're going to discriminate with affirmative action you better be darn sure you're doing it properly and based on sound evidence and metrics and not pulling numbers out of your butt for the sake of "diversity".    To do otherwise should be illegal.

If you're going to do it then equality of opportunity should be the goal, not equality of outcome.  Not all racial and gender inequalities are due to discrimination.  We know this from looking at the NBA and the gender divide of new medical doctors and university grads in general.  Therefore these organizations need to get off their lazy butts and actually do some statistcal research and arrive at evidence based targets.  But they don't want to, they just want to save the world and stick their heads in the cloud without caring whose rights they infringe.

How come the pro-diversity people have to provide rigorous statistical analysis, but you can't back up your claims that affirmative action-type policies actually harm any white people?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 02:25:25 pm by Black Dog »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #447 on: November 29, 2021, 02:33:59 pm »
The problem is you continue to assume that the answer is "tell people to not discriminate" which is pretty simplistic and doesn't really address the root of the problem, which, again, is not individual managers consciously making discriminatory hiring choices.

No the problem is some well-intentioned people who are either lazy or don't know how to perform proper social science research are saying things are problems when sometimes they aren't and then to fix these problems that don't actually exist they're discriminating against people when it's not justified.

Let's say research can more or less confirm that about 20% of black applicants who were the most qualified applicants were denied employment at a company, and so the company hired 20% more highly qualified black people.  Ok great I'd have no problem with that because it actually makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is saying "20% of the general population is a POC but only 10% of our employees are POC so racism must be occurring in our hiring practices.  It's just a total guess and bad social science because there could be other variables at play that haven't even been considered.  Like what if it's a Birkenstock company and black people just don't wear or have any interest in Birkenstocks lol so they just don't apply to the company?
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Offline Black Dog

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #448 on: November 29, 2021, 02:38:24 pm »
No the problem is some well-intentioned people who are either lazy or don't know how to perform proper social science research are saying things are problems when sometimes they aren't and then to fix these problems that don't actually exist they're discriminating against people when it's not justified.

Prove it.

Also you continue to not understand that the problem that people are attempting to correct is not "X people aren't be hired cuz racism".

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Woke Culture
« Reply #449 on: November 29, 2021, 03:47:16 pm »
Prove it.

If you're going to discriminate against people in hiring practices and school admissions etc to right wrongs, the burden isn't on me to prove there isn't any wrongs occurring, the burden is on the people discriminating to prove there's wrongs occurring.  I'm not going to do their work for them.  Wild guesses because "feelings" and because "evil white patriarchy" is not acceptable, and are not good research in any way whatsoever.

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Also you continue to not understand that the problem that people are attempting to correct is not "X people aren't be hired cuz racism".

Then what is the specific people are trying to correct?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley